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Entity Framework Vote of No Confidence   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #10564 of 23355 |
A number of people have worked on an open letter to Microsoft and the
Entity Framework team. It outlines the various deficiencies in the EF
specifically related to concepts a lot of us value as solid working
practice. Every effort has been made to balance honesty with diplomacy
and cooperation.

http://efvote.wufoo.com/forms/ado-net-entity-framework-vote-of-no-confidence/

I'd encourage you all to sign if (and only if) this is something you
agree with and please spread the word.

--


/ Dave

http://thebeelog.com
Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:28 am

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davidlaribee
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Forward 		Message #10564 of 23355 |
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A number of people have worked on an open letter to Microsoft and the Entity Framework team. It outlines the various deficiencies in the EF specifically... 		David Laribee
davidlaribee
Offline Send Email 		Jun 23, 2008
11:28 am

A noble idea ... out of interest, why is this not yet signed by all the ... concerns of a group of experts that ... I suspect those people will carry far more...
Casey Charlton
caseycharlton69
Offline Send Email 		Jun 23, 2008
11:37 am

http://blogs.msdn.com/dsimmons/archive/2008/06/03/dp-advisory-council.aspx It seems they are already trying to do something about this, of course it is still a...
Sidar Ok
oksidar
Offline Send Email 		Jun 23, 2008
11:49 am

I'm aware of this. I think it's a *step* in the right direction. Doesn't hurt to have the community voice heard and to establish a bar for what potential...
David Laribee
davidlaribee
Offline Send Email 		Jun 23, 2008
12:02 pm

i don't think they have any room left to make big changes so close to the release... the influence that group has over the direction of Entity Framework might...
Davy Brion
ralinx
Offline Send Email 		Jun 23, 2008
12:03 pm

Could be. Even so, good to be explicit and professional about criticisms _right now_. ... -- / Dave http://thebeelog.com...
David Laribee
davidlaribee
Offline Send Email 		Jun 23, 2008
12:04 pm

oh definitely, that's why i signed. If we don't voice our opinions we can't expect any change at all. But expecting changes on short-term basis is probably...
Davy Brion
ralinx
Offline Send Email 		Jun 23, 2008
12:07 pm

If they don't change certain things before this release, then they have to support it in the next relase. Which means that we'll still have those leaks into...
Sidar Ok
oksidar
Offline Send Email 		Jun 23, 2008
12:12 pm

i know and i'm not happy about it either, but they simply can't make certain changes this close to the release. And i doubt they'll postpone it....
Davy Brion
ralinx
Offline Send Email 		Jun 23, 2008
12:16 pm

It's good to raise the issues in this way (and not rants on a blog), however its a shame it has came so late in the process. Hopefully this will take this...
Ben Hall
ben2004uk
Offline Send Email 		Jun 23, 2008
12:11 pm

i remember reading on a blog (i think it was either Jeremy Miller's or Ayende's) after the first ALT.NET conference (at least, i think it was then) that people...
Davy Brion
ralinx
Offline Send Email 		Jun 23, 2008
12:14 pm

Knowing about issues and being able to do anything about them are two vastly different things. The entire devteam might be aware of an issue (and want to...
Jamie Fraser
the_dpp
Offline Send Email 		Jun 23, 2008
1:39 pm

It's also good to remember that this letter was just as much intentioned to be directed towards potential adopters of EF. I think we all know it's too late to...
Jimmy Bogard
jimmy.bogard
Offline Send Email 		Jun 24, 2008
12:36 am

It was emailed to me in the evening. I'm just checking mail now and I suspect that's the case with the handful of people involved in authoring. For my part I...
David Laribee
davidlaribee
Offline Send Email 		Jun 23, 2008
12:01 pm

So I HAVE signed because I DO believe in the premise laid out in the open letter, but I have to ask a (potentially) more appropriate question: why do we...
stephen.bohlen
Offline Send Email 		Jun 23, 2008
1:46 pm

because it's from Microsoft, it will become the de facto ORM to use in a lot of .NET shops. Like it or not, EF will get a lot of exposure and we will be forced...
Davy Brion
ralinx
Offline Send Email 		Jun 23, 2008
1:59 pm

I think another inherent problem that will be faced (whether the letter has its intended effect or not) is that because the EF is "new and improved!!!!", all...
Jamie Fraser
the_dpp
Offline Send Email 		Jun 23, 2008
2:05 pm

Its not at all clear to me that in all-MS shops there is any benefit to there NOT being an EF offering if I am trying (for example) to recommend NHibernate. My...
stephen.bohlen
Offline Send Email 		Jun 23, 2008
2:35 pm

Here it already had effect. My boss, who 'also reads the list', was considering using EF until he read the original post of the thread. Just for itself I´m...
Cláudio Figueiredo
jcfigueiredojr
Online Now Send Email 		Jun 23, 2008
6:17 pm

Personally I would consider it a pretty significant *improvment* if the EF managed to move the conversation to "why would you want to use another ORM than EF?"...
stephen.bohlen
Offline Send Email 		Jun 23, 2008
7:25 pm

Stephen, It's a great (and obvious) question. In no way, shape, or form does this document impact how I'm going to develop, but I'm not every team. The EF...
jeremydmiller
Offline Send Email 		Jun 23, 2008
2:02 pm

Your point about the open letter serving as rallying point for those who want to make the non-EF argument to management is perhaps the strongest defense of...
stephen.bohlen
Offline Send Email 		Jun 23, 2008
2:48 pm

Yes....
Ayende Rahien
Ayende@...
Send Email 		Jun 23, 2008
9:35 pm

LOL...
jdn3times
Online Now Send Email 		Jun 23, 2008
9:42 pm

he asked......
Ayende Rahien
Ayende@...
Send Email 		Jun 23, 2008
9:52 pm

Ayende, just out of curiosity, have you coded classic ASP 3.0? Regards, ... -- Claudio Figueiredo jcfigueiredo@... Stormwind Project Commiter...
Cláudio Figueiredo
jcfigueiredojr
Online Now Send Email 		Jun 23, 2008
10:01 pm

Yes. On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 1:01 AM, Cláudio Figueiredo <jcfigueiredo@...> ... Yes. On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 1:01 AM, Cláudio Figueiredo <...
Ayende Rahien
Ayende@...
Send Email 		Jun 23, 2008
10:07 pm

And to foretell the next question, I used record sets like there was no tomorrow. I was a whiz in access based full fledged web sites that had a single page ...
Ayende Rahien
Ayende@...
Send Email 		Jun 23, 2008
10:08 pm

... Regards, ... -- Claudio Figueiredo jcfigueiredo@... Stormwind Project Commiter - http://www.stormwindproject.org ... And to foretell the...
Cláudio Figueiredo
jcfigueiredojr
Online Now Send Email 		Jun 24, 2008
12:17 am
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