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Bjorn Question   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #3024 of 3576 |
Re: [ancient_chronology] Bjorn Question

There is one possible problem with the Jubilees thing.
 
by the time of the Babylonian Captivity, Judah as well
as Israel, had been in disobedience to The Law for a long
time. The first thing to go, of course, would be anything
that would negatively impact economic issues, or MIGHT
do so if you lacked faith.
 
Serious disruption of course involving the worship of false
gods, goes back to the time of the Judges. God tells
I think it is Jeremiah, that under Babylon the land will
enjoy its sabbaths, ergo the seventy years, or one year
for each sabbath year, which might incl. Jubilee years,
that had gone unobserved.
 
So unless there is some extrabiblical Judaean records
to fall back on, I think we should ignore the Jubilee counts.
These were probably ignored several times and the count
restarted every time there was a big repentance.
 
Justina
 
 
In a message dated 7/13/2009 6:13:45 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, DavRice@... writes:


(( can we claim to know that? ))
 
Hello, Bjorn. In the sense of dogmatic assurance, no. In the sense of persuasive evidence, yes.
 
The books of Kings and Chronicles contain a treasury of time markers -- the regnal lengths for each monarch of Judah and Israel, and synchronisms between each line at each step of the way. Very few people have the interest, time, or motivation to methodically go through that information. However, if one does, one finds that it can be synchronized in a consistent manner. As you know this is the study which Edwin Thiele presents in a persuasive way (if one does take the considerable time required to go through it carefully). Kenneth Kitchen's studies affirm his concurrence with the results -- my own studies independently confirm the result back to Solomon -- Rodger Young's independent studies do essentially the same -- and other published author's agree.
 
Meanwhile the double cord of evidence in the AKL and the Limmu lists form a cohesive an independent testimony for about the same period.
 
When the two histories are compared, say between Ahab and Hoshea, the two spans are found match -- for their are links between Assyria and Ahab, and Assyria and Hoshea, making the comparison specific and persuasive. This helps counteract the concern you expressed about bias in any particular nation's records.
 
---------------------------------------
 
So far so good -- many people concur to this point. But what are the reasonble implications of this, reaching farther back in time? As the regnal and synchronistic data of Kings and Chronicles is thus testified to be consistent and evidently reliable, the integrity of the testimony of 1 Kngs 6:1 is augmented. It is from the same stock and culture as the other testimonies -- and the Israelites, specially the court of the great king Solomon, into whose Kingdom even the Pharaoh sent his daughter to seal a marriage alliance -- had an easy method of determining the information contained in 1 Kings 6:1. For aside from any other national records, the count of Jubilees, which was kept up even to the close of the Judean kingdom, was adequate to yield such information.
 
This single text pushes our credible information back as far as the Exodus.
 
And it allows an independent check on the results -- for following 40 years in the wilderness to the entrance into the land of Israel, when the Jubilee cycles began to count, we can match the years from there forward to Ezekiel 40:1, the last and 17th Jubilee, even to the very year. With markers along the way for the foundation of the Temple (which began in a Sabbath year preceding a Jubilee year), and the unique Sabbath marker of 2 Kings 19:29, which are in perfect synch with the sabbath and jubilee cycles.
 
This is reasonable evidence.
 
---------------------------------------
 
But now how to connect the history of other nations? If we allow the reasonable conclusions above to serve as a basis, at least tenatively, then we can match the history of Egypt to this. As you know, the NC breaks the usual association of Shishak - Sheshonk, and I presumed with most interested in revising ancient history that this would be a good candidate for change. But as time passed, the evidence for the link seemed to me to overcome the negatives.
 
-- The name connection is very direct
-- If the daughter of Psusennes II married Sheshonk I then the dynasties did not overlap
-- Kenneth Kitchen's treastise on dead-reckoning back to Sheshonk is very reasonable
 
For all the reasons that Alan Montgomery specifies -- and there are three good reasons for this at least -- the Exodus does fit very nicely with the close of the 12th Dynasty. So can we compress customary Egyptian history from D12 to D22 to fit Israelite history in a plausible manner? It seems we can -- and that in the process various other requirements are satisfied as well.
 
The Kushara - Kushan link is among them. This is a change for me from my former opinion about a possible link between Mittani and Cushan. After examining the matter for some time, seeking some solution for some intrinsic difficulties, I seemed forced to give up the Mittani Cushan link. The Kushara - Kushan link is the result, and seems more satisfying.
 
-------------------------------------
 
The Courville approach is that the Israelites are the MB1 invaders of Canaan. If one reads Mazar, and Kenyon, without concern for the dates they assign at least for the moment, I think one cannot help but see the remarkable connection between the MB1 people and the Israelites. That is the strength of Courville, and of Vern's neo-Courville, and Anati's connections, and Porter's connections. The connection is very impressive, and each additional insight into the MB1 people seems to strengthen the connection.
 
But is this consistent with putting the Exodus near the close of the 12th Dynasty? I believe it is -- others are reticent to mix the two solutions. -- David Rice
 



Tue Jul 14, 2009 1:23 am

infowolf1
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Message #3024 of 3576 |
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Hello, Bjorn -- I know your post was sent to another person, and I am glad to let that discussion unfold as it will. But the questions you asked at the end of...
DavRice@...
davricey
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Jul 13, 2009
6:57 pm

given that Moses was found by Pharoah's daughter, and that these people married their sisters, perhaps Sobeknefru was the finder of Moses. The first part of...
Infowolf1@...
infowolf1
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Jul 13, 2009
7:19 pm

(( can we claim to know that? )) Hello, Bjorn. In the sense of dogmatic assurance, no. In the sense of persuasive evidence, yes. The books of Kings and...
DavRice@...
davricey
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Jul 14, 2009
1:13 am

Hi All, ... <mailto:ancient_chronology@yahoogroups.com> , DavRice@... wrote: [BL (aka "Bjorn question"): Most of Dave's synchronisms (or Mary's) may be...
Björn Lindborg
bjorn07se
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Jul 16, 2009
12:59 am

There is one possible problem with the Jubilees thing. by the time of the Babylonian Captivity, Judah as well as Israel, had been in disobedience to The Law...
Infowolf1@...
infowolf1
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Jul 14, 2009
1:27 am

(( Where is the persuasive evidence? )) Hello, Bjorn -- The evidence I referred to is the record of the kingdoms of Israel and Judah. This double cord of...
DavRice@...
davricey
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Jul 16, 2009
2:32 am

... In a previous post, David wrote: << The books of Kings and Chronicles contain a treasury of time markers -- the regnal lengths for each monarch of Judah...
Björn Lindborg
bjorn07se
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Jul 19, 2009
8:20 pm

In other words, these monumental buildings were Solomon's, but were being refurbished (wars and stuff now and then?) so that what is of Omride time originated...
Infowolf1@...
infowolf1
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Jul 20, 2009
3:02 am

... In the 'Modified High' chronology, the Iron Age IIA becomes rather extended in time. There is a trend to divide it into IA IIA 'early' and IA IIA 'late'....
Björn Lindborg
bjorn07se
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Jul 20, 2009
2:00 pm

Reuse of old materials of a semi indestructible sort, like metal and stone, might also complicate dating? I understand it has done so, also reuse of wood...
Infowolf1@...
infowolf1
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Jul 20, 2009
11:34 pm
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