Assyrian Planisphere
July 4, 2361bc,  24 minutes before Sunrise
 

Introduction to the Planisphere

Gen 1:14 � And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven
    (1). to divide the day from the night; and let them be
    (2). for signs, and
    (3). for seasons, and
    (4). for days, and
    (5). years:

The IMPORTANCE of the Assyrian Planisphere:   

1. The Assyrian Planisphere is an ancient star and planet chart that specifies the exact date (July 4, 2361bc) asteroids impacted the earth causing The Flood. It also describes the path the asteroids took through the sky.

2. The Assyrian Planisphere indicates several Earth to Sky mappings including the city of Asshur, Damascus, Ur, Heiroconpolis, Buto, and the mountains of Ararat. This Earth-Sky knowledge is useful because it could give an indication as to where the asteroids cratered, where the Observer was located, and how the Assyrians may have used the stars to navigate. Such celestial navigation techniques may have been used by the Wise Men following the star of Bethlehem.

What is the K8538 Assyrian Planisphere?   

The Assyrian Planisphere is an ancient man-made clay disc-shaped object enscribed with Cuneiform writing and 6 stick figures in the shape of constellations. Some of it is damaged and unreadable. It is identified formally as K8538 by the British Museum. It is not really a 'tablet' in that it is saucer shaped on the bottom and the top is flat where the scribing appears. Inscribed lines divide it up into an 8-sectored pie-like division. Each sector has celestial information in it. The majority of the sectors are associated with a particular constellation and are arranged in the order they appear in the sky. It would be a mistake, however, to assume that all 8 sectors conform to this arrangement. 2 of 6 stick figures are identified as the Pisces and Gemini constellations. Some of the remaining 4 stick figures are constellations, but do not correlate to our modern constellation. The rest of the 4 stick figures are not constellations at all, but rather serve other purposes. For instance, one such stick figure graphically shows the path of the meteors as they pass through several constellations. Engraved in cuneiform are the Assyrian names of  4 constellations: Gemini, Orion, Taurus, and Eridanus. Unlike a 'Zodiac', the planisphere contains only a subset of the 12 constellations. Why?  Well, it's purpose is to show what the sky looked like on a particular night, and the fact is, only a subset of the 12 constellations are ever visible on any particular night, hence that is the reason why it is called a planisphere, not a zodiac.

It's Purpose   

"STAR VIGOROUSLY SWEPT ALONG' and 'LARGE STAR'

These two key phrases appear in cuneiform inscribing in the 'path' sector of the Planisphere. In the CANCER sector appears the words

"MOVING-STAR MOVING-STAR MOVING-STAR MOVING-STAR"

And in the PISCES sector, 4 dots appear in the middle of a closed triangle.

I contend, that these 4 moving stars are 4 meteors/asteroids that hit the earth. Further, I contend, that each of the 8 sectors on the Planisphere were designed to tell the story of the cause of the greatest catastrophe on earth, namely The Flood. Every sector was designed to give information about the date and path of the meteor/asteroid through the sky, as well as it's relation to locations on the earth.

I suggest, that the greatest catastrophe the world has ever known would be a worthy event to write in stone. And some of the oldest cuniform and other tablets in existence, do just that such as the Epic of Gilgamesh, the book of Enoch, and the book of Genesis. 

The cause of the Flood, in my opinion, were asteroids which first crashed through the famous pre-flood water canopy covering the land-portion of the earth causing it to rain, and secondly impacted the earth causing it to 'crack' and the 'fountains of the deep' to break forth. There are 180 known, classified, significant craters on the earth. With a couple exceptions, the only eyewitness accounts of such HUGE asteroids/meteors are related to the flood which occured 4300 years ago.

Greetings Ian,

Thanks for your interest.

You wrote:
> I know this planisphere.

But I wonder if you have studied it. I like your thoughts about the 7 dots,
however, much of your posting sounds more like a parrot repeating a couple
phrases which he's been taught.

Answer me this:

Can you explain why you agree or disagree with Bond and Hempsell's view on what
planets appear in which sectors of the Planisphere?

Toby

--- In ancient_chronology@yahoogroups.com, Ian Onvlee <sambacats@...> wrote:
>
> OK Toby,
>
> I know this planisphere. It was recovered from the library of King
Assurbanipal in Nineveh and dated to circa 800 BC by early investigators.
Johannes Koch more recently dated it to circa 650 BC.The planisphere itself is
not dated of course.
>
> I gather that this is your website (and reference), Toby:
http://infinitybiblecode.zoomshare.com/files/Assyrian_Meteor_Path.html Well
done. I can see that you've worked hard on it. Of course I disagree, and I see
you are still holding on to that impossible theory of Dodwell too, obviously for
the same reason as your date for the planisphere, based on your Biblical
(Massoretic) Flooddate.
>
> Alan Bond and Mark Hempsell
(http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03/31/kofels_asteroid/) dated the
planisphere to 29 June 3123 BC (the sky chart is practically identical at
morning break, with Orion's Girdle rising heliacally):
>
> Quote
> A Cuneiform clay tablet which for over 150 years defied attempts at
interpretation has now been revealed to describe an asteroid impact which in
3123 BC hit Köfels, Austria, leaving in its wake a trail of destruction which
may acccount for the biblical tale of Sodom and Gomorrah.
> The "Planisphere" tablet (see pic) - inscribed around 700 BC - was unearthed
by Henry Layard in the remains of the library of the Assyrian royal palace at
Nineveh, close to modern-day Mosul, Iraq. It's a copy of the night diary of a
Sumerian astronomer containing drawings of constellations and "known
constellation names", but it required modern computer tech to finally unravel
its exact meaning.
> Alan Bond, Managing Director of Reaction Engines Ltd and Mark Hempsell, Senior
Lecturer in Astronautics at Bristol University, subjected the Planisphere to a
programme which "can simulate trajectories and reconstruct the night sky
thousands of years ago". They discovered that it described "events in the sky
before dawn on the 29 June 3123 BC", with half of it noting "planet positions
and cloud cover, the same as any other night".
> The other half, however, records an object "large enough for its shape to be
noted even though it is still in space" and tracks its trajectory relative to
the stars, which "to an error better than one degree is consistent with an
impact at Köfels".
> That a large body had impacted at Köfels had long been suspected, the
evidence being a giant landslide 500m thick and five kilometres in diameter. The
site had no impact crater to back the theory, but the researchers now believe
they have a plausible explanation for that.
> The Bristol Uni press release explains: "The observation suggests the asteroid
is over a kilometre in diameter and the original orbit about the Sun was an Aten
type, a class of asteroid that orbit close to the earth, that is resonant with
the Earth’s orbit. This trajectory explains why there is no crater at Köfels.
> "The in coming angle was very low (six degrees) and means the asteroid clipped
a mountain called Gamskogel above the town of Längenfeld, 11 kilometres from
Köfels, and this caused the asteroid to explode before it reached its final
impact point.
> "As it travelled down the valley it became a fireball, around five kilometres
in diameter (the size of the landslide). When it hit Köfels it created enormous
pressures that pulverised the rock and caused the landslide but because it was
no longer a solid object it did not create a classic impact crater."
> Mark Hempsell, hinting at the possible fate of Sodom and Gomorrah, adds:
“Another conclusion can be made from the trajectory. The back plume from the
explosion (the mushroom cloud) would be bent over the Mediterranean Sea
re-entering the atmosphere over the Levant, Sinai, and Northern Egypt.
> “The ground heating though very short would be enough to ignite any
flammable material - including human hair and clothes. It is probable more
people died under the plume than in the Alps due to the impact blast.“
> While the biblical fate of the legendary dens of vice (“Then the Lord rained
down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah - from the Lord out of the heavens”
- Genesis 19:24) sits nicely with the asteroid theory, it's never been
categorically proven that they actually existed in their suspected location
close to the Dead Sea.
> Tales of fiery destruction raining from the skies are not, though, restricted
to the Bible. Hempsall told the Times that "at least 20 ancient myths record
devastation of the type and on the scale of the asteroid’s impact" - including
the Ancient Greek myth of how Phaeton, son of Helios, lost control of his dad's
chariot and plunged into the River Eridanus.
> A translation of the Planisphere and the researchers' findings can be found in
the book A Sumerian Observation of the Köfels' Impact Event. The tablet is
object number K8538 in the British Museum collection.
> Unquote
>
> See also http://members.westnet.com.au/Gary-David-Thompson/page11-9.html for
various counter-arguments and a plain drawing of the inscribed side of the
planisphere, by the British Assyriologist Leonard King in 1912 and corrected by
Johannes Koch in 1989.
>
> I doubt if any of these theories are valid. Why draw seven dots in a row if
not in fact this planisphere celebrates a date in which seven planets were in
fact seen aligned in a row on the sun's path itself? What seven planets? They
must have included the sun and moon, mercury, venus, mars, jupiter and saturn.
Or are we to assume they also saw Uranus, Neptune and even Pluto? When did such
an alignment occur? Certainly not in 2361 BC or 3123 BC. There was one in 8847
BC, repeated 2 years later (2 years after the Flood?), at the end of the Last
Ice Age, and amazingly, involving all ten planets up to Pluto, perfectly in a
row along the sun's path (except the outish planet Pluto), namely precisely on
the day the Biblical Flood began, the 27th of the second lunar month, Monday 14
August, from Virgo to Pisces: Venus, Moon, Sun, Mercury, Mars, Jupiter, Uranus,
Saturn, Neptune and Pluto! Venus and the Moon were at that moment still Morning
stars, conjunct
>  Sprica. Mercury became evening star 12 days later, when the deathstar Antares
vanished heliacally in the West and all planets could be seen seen setting one
by one in a row throughout the coming nights, until day 34 since 14 August,
when Venus disappeared as Morning star and the deathstar Antares rose
heliacally. On day 40 the sun passes the Galactic Center, and the heavy rains in
the Bible end. Mercury vanished in the West on day 44 and successively each of
the planets. But from day 86 onwards the planets reappeared heliacally one by
one in the East. Mercury became evening star again on day 127, but exactly 150
days after the beginning on 14 August, when the Biblical Flood ended, on 11
January 8846 BC, both Venus and the Moon also became evening stars and all
planets were visible again throughout the night, all rising from the east
(except of course Venus, Mercury and the Moon, which were seen in the west
after sunset). I haven't found any later
>  such occurrence yet fitting the Biblical Flood story.
>
> Also, on 14 August 8847 BC at sunset, the crossing point of the solar path and
the celestial equator (autumn equinox) culminates (south of the zenith) and is
between Pisces and Aquarius (the very WET signs), so if this point was the
center of the planisphere, then if the observer had to lay on the ground with
his head to the South, with the Sun in the correct position in the West on the
horizon with Scorpio, corresponding to the sector with the tail of seven
planets towards the center along the solar path. In fact, the solar and
planetary path on the planisphere also mirrors exactly the form of
Scorpio. Taurus and the Pleiads were just beginning to rise in the East,
corresponding to the opposite sector of the planisphere. Gemini was then in the
correct position far below the eastern horizon, corresponding to the
sector with Gemini in the planisphere. The sector with the great arrow then
corresponded correctly with Sagittarius (the
>  bowman) above Scorpio. Whatever the ellipse may mean, it then corresponds
with the area of Leo and its royal star Regulus at the lower junction of the
solar path and the equator (vernal equinox), and perhaps associated with
Procyon, Sirius and Canopus. There is thus no need for complicated mathematical
schemes; it's either there or it isn't.
>
> So why not simply date the planisphere to Monday evening 14 August 8847 BC
instead? It certainly fits the geological end of the Last Ice Age, when the
oceans suddenly rose dramatically and flooded all coastal area's, necessitating
people to flee to higher grounds. It is also the exact year in which the Pleiads
(symbolic of the Flood story) were at their lowest southern culmination point
in the precession cycle and were returning northwards again.
>
> Regards,
> Ian Onvlee
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Toby <zoe_lithoi@...>
> To: ancient_chronology@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sat, April 3, 2010 12:22:38 AM
> Subject: [ancient_chronology] Part 1: Assyrian Planisphere: An Introduction
>
>  
> Assyrian Planisphere
> July 4, 2361bc,  24 minutes before Sunrise
>  
> Introduction to the Planisphere
> Gen 1:14¶ And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven
> >>>>    (1). to divide the day from the night; and let them be
> >>>>    (2). for signs, and
> >>>>    (3). for seasons, and
> >>>>    (4). for days, and
> >>>>    (5). years:
>  
> The IMPORTANCE of the Assyrian Planisphere:   
> 1. The Assyrian Planisphere is an ancient star and planet chart that specifies
the exact date (July 4, 2361bc) asteroids impacted the earth causing The Flood.
It also describes the path the asteroids took through the sky.
> >2. The Assyrian Planisphere indicates several Earth to Sky mappings including
the city of Asshur, Damascus, Ur, Heiroconpolis, Buto, and the mountains of
Ararat. This Earth-Sky knowledge is useful because it could give an indication
as to where the asteroids cratered, where the Observer was located, and how the
Assyrians may have used the stars to navigate. Such celestial navigation
techniques may have been used by the Wise Men following the star of Bethlehem.
> What is the K8538 Assyrian Planisphere?   
> The Assyrian Planisphere is an ancient man-made clay disc-shaped object
enscribed with Cuneiform writing and 6 stick figures in the shape of
constellations. Some of it is damaged and unreadable. It is identified formally
as K8538 by the British Museum. It is not really a 'tablet' in that it is saucer
shaped on the bottom and the top is flat where the scribing appears. Inscribed
lines divide it up into an 8-sectored pie-like division. Each sector has
celestial information in it. The majority of the sectors are associated with a
particular constellation and are arranged in the order they appear in the sky.
It would be a mistake, however, to assume that all 8 sectors conform to this
arrangement. 2 of 6 stick figures are identified as the Pisces and Gemini
constellations. Some of the remaining 4 stick figures are constellations, but do
not correlate to our modern constellation. The rest of the 4 stick figures are
not constellations at all, but rather serve
>  other purposes. For instance, one such stick figure graphically shows the
path of the meteors as they pass through several constellations. Engraved in
cuneiform are the Assyrian names of  4 constellations: Gemini, Orion, Taurus,
and Eridanus. Unlike a 'Zodiac', the planisphere contains only a subset of the
12 constellations. Why?  Well, it's purpose is to show what the sky looked like
on a particular night, and the fact is, only a subset of the 12 constellations
are ever visible on any particular night, hence that is the reason why it is
called a planisphere, not a zodiac.
> It's Purpose  
> "STAR VIGOROUSLY SWEPT ALONG' and 'LARGE STAR'
> These two key phrases appear in cuneiform inscribing in the 'path' sector of
the Planisphere. In the CANCER sector appears the words
> "MOVING-STAR MOVING-STAR MOVING-STAR MOVING-STAR"
> And in the PISCES sector, 4 dots appear in the middle of a closed triangle.
> I contend, that these 4 moving stars are 4 meteors/asteroids that hit the
earth. Further, I contend, that each of the 8 sectors on the Planisphere were
designed to tell the story of the cause of the greatest catastrophe on earth,
namely The Flood. Every sector was designed to give information about the date
and path of the meteor/asteroid through the sky, as well as it's relation to
locations on the earth.
> I suggest, that the greatest catastrophe the world has ever known would be a
worthy event to write in stone. And some of the oldest cuniform and other
tablets in existence, do just that such as the Epic of Gilgamesh, the book of
Enoch, and the book of Genesis. 
> The cause of the Flood, in my opinion, were asteroids which first crashed
through the famous pre-flood water canopy covering the land-portion of the earth
causing it to rain, and secondly impacted the earth causing it to 'crack' and
the 'fountains of the deep' to break forth. There are 180 known, classified,
significant craters on the earth. With a couple exceptions, the only eyewitness
accounts of such HUGE asteroids/meteors are related to the flood which occured
4300 years ago.
>

Greetings Ian,

You wrote:
"Why draw seven dots in a row� if not in fact this planisphere celebrates a date
in which seven planets were in fact seen aligned in a row on the sun's path
itself? What seven planets? They must have included the sun and moon, mercury,
venus, mars, jupiter and saturn. Or are we to assume they also saw Uranus,
Neptune and even Pluto? When did such an alignment occur? Certainly not in 2361
BC or 3123 BC. There was one in 8847 BC, repeated 2 years later (2 years after
the Flood?), at the end of the Last Ice Age, and amazingly,� involving all ten
planets up to Pluto, perfectly in a row along the sun's path (except the outish
planet Pluto), namely precisely on the day the Biblical Flood began, ...> > So
why not simply date the planisphere to Monday evening 14 August 8847 BC instead?
"

The path of the sun and the path of the planets intersect each other in 2
places. IT takes a very long time (hundreds of years) for these paths to change
noticeably. If these 2 paths did indeed overlay each other so that the planetary
and sun's paths are right on top of each other, then these parallel/overlaying
paths would do so for hundreds of years, not one day here and one day 2 years
later.

There are many short internet articles on Bond and Hempsell's book, but they all
basically say the same thing, and only cover a very small tidbit of their book.
These online news clipping 'advertisements' don't discuss the existance of the
planets in certain constellations on the planisphere.

So, since you lack much of this knowledge, I can understand why you might think
the 7 dots might refer to the location of the 7 planets in 1 particular
constellation or even between a couple constellations. I suspect, however, that
the appearance of 7 planets in the nightime sky, from sunset to sunrise; has
happened a few times in the last 6000  years, not just in 8000bc as you suggest.
I'll try to look up some info I have on that if you'ld like. The book of Enoch
speaks of such an alignment at creation.

I believe the 7 dots indicate where the path of the planets intersect 2 specific
constellations and the angle of intersection. The Mul Apin tablets, which are
contemporary with the planisphere, are divided up into 3 series of tablets. Each
of the 3 describe a different path, namely the path of the sun, the planets, and
the celestial equator. So it is NOT surprizing that the planisphere would show
the path of the sun and the path of the planets on it.

BTW, since the MUL APIN describes the constellations these 3 paths travel
through, one website dates the MUL APIN to 2340bc as follows:

http://www.lexiline.com/lexiline/lexi42.htm

"The MUL.APIN series of astronomical tablets
- now found in the British Museum -
describe a UNIQUE heaven which occurred
at ca. 2340 BC, plus or minus 20 years."

You wrote:
"I see you are still holding on to that impossible theory of Dodwell too,
obviously for the same reason as your date for the planisphere, based on your
Biblical (Massoretic) Flooddate."

Yes! Absolutely!

So now there are 3 archeological witnesses to the date of the flood:

1. 2361bc - Assyrian Planisphere
2. 2345bc - George Dodwell's graph of the Earth's tilt
3. 2340bc +/-20 years - Mul Apin clay tablets.

Pretty nice eh?

I am familiar with Gary-David- Thompson's website. My opinion of it, is that it
is one of those papers which is all critique but doesn't give alternatives. What
does he think the Planishere says?  I dunno. He doesn't say.  He makes a big
deal about Bond and Hempsell translating MUL as constellation (he claims it just
means 'star'), yet in this same article he does the same thing: "The
Pegasus-square (mul A�-iku)". The fact is, the planisphere uses the MUL word to
refer to several constellations. It says 'The constellation (MUL) of the young
twins' and 'The constellation (MUL) of the Shepherd of the Milky Way'.

I no doubt disagree with some of Bond and Hempsell's conclusions and
interpretations and even a couple of their translations (particular ones that I
studied); but I don't throw out the baby with the bath water as those Thompson
men do.


Toby


--- In ancient_chronology@yahoogroups.com, Ian Onvlee <sambacats@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Toby,
>
> The parrot part is what I quoted, the rest is selfstudy. No, I haven't studied
Bond and Hempsell's book (yet), if that's what you mean, but I do not recall
anyone having identified any planets in any section either. So I have no
agreement or disagreement with either their or your view regarding planetary
positions. If it's just a dot being there, it could be anything, but please
fill me in what arguments there are for planetary positions.
>
> Regards,
> Ian Onvlee
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Toby <zoe_lithoi@...>
> To: ancient_chronology@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sun, April 4, 2010 4:13:07 AM
> Subject: [ancient_chronology] Re: Part 1: Assyrian Planisphere: An
Introduction
>
>  
> Greetings Ian,
>
> Thanks for your interest.
>
> You wrote:
> > I know this planisphere.
>
> But I wonder if you have studied it. I like your thoughts about the 7 dots,
however, much of your posting sounds more like a parrot repeating a couple
phrases which he's been taught.
>
> Answer me this:
>
> Can you explain why you agree or disagree with Bond and Hempsell's view on
what planets appear in which sectors of the Planisphere?
>
> Toby
>
> --- In ancient_chronology@ yahoogroups. com, Ian Onvlee <sambacats@ ..> wrote:
> >
> > OK Toby,
> >
> > I know this planisphere. It was recovered from the library of King
Assurbanipal in Nineveh and dated to circa 800 BC by early investigators.
Johannes Koch more recently dated it to circa 650 BC.The planisphere itself is
not dated of course.
> >
> > I gather that this is your website (and reference), Toby:
http://infinitybibl ecode.zoomshare. com/files/ Assyrian_ Meteor_Path.
html Well done. I can see that you've worked hard on it. Of course I disagree,
and I see you are still holding on to that impossible theory of Dodwell too,
obviously for the same reason as your date for the planisphere, based on your
Biblical (Massoretic) Flooddate.
> >
> > Alan Bond and Mark Hempsell
(http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03/31/kofels_asteroid/) dated the
planisphere to 29 June 3123 BC (the sky chart is practically identical at
morning break, with Orion's Girdle rising heliacally):
> >
> > Quote
> > A Cuneiform clay tablet which for over 150 years defied attempts at
interpretation has now been revealed to describe an asteroid impact which in
3123 BC hit Köfels, Austria, leaving in its wake a trail of destruction which
may acccount for the biblical tale of Sodom and Gomorrah.
> > The "Planisphere" tablet (see pic) - inscribed around 700 BC - was unearthed
by Henry Layard in the remains of the library of the Assyrian royal palace at
Nineveh, close to modern-day Mosul, Iraq. It's a copy of the night diary of a
Sumerian astronomer containing drawings of constellations and "known
constellation names", but it required modern computer tech to finally unravel
its exact meaning.
> > Alan Bond, Managing Director of Reaction Engines Ltd and Mark Hempsell,
Senior Lecturer in Astronautics at Bristol University, subjected the Planisphere
to a programme which "can simulate trajectories and reconstruct the night sky
thousands of years ago". They discovered that it described "events in the sky
before dawn on the 29 June 3123 BC", with half of it noting "planet positions
and cloud cover, the same as any other night".
> > The other half, however, records an object "large enough for its shape to be
noted even though it is still in space" and tracks its trajectory relative to
the stars, which "to an error better than one degree is consistent with an
impact at Köfels".
> > That a large body had impacted at Köfels had long been suspected, the
evidence being a giant landslide 500m thick and five kilometres in diameter. The
site had no impact crater to back the theory, but the researchers now believe
they have a plausible explanation for that.
> > The Bristol Uni press release explains: "The observation suggests the
asteroid is over a kilometre in diameter and the original orbit about the Sun
was an Aten type, a class of asteroid that orbit close to the earth, that is
resonant with the Earth’s orbit. This trajectory explains why there is no
crater at Köfels.
> > "The in coming angle was very low (six degrees) and means the asteroid
clipped a mountain called Gamskogel above the town of Längenfeld, 11 kilometres
from Köfels, and this caused the asteroid to explode before it reached its
final impact point.
> > "As it travelled down the valley it became a fireball, around five
kilometres in diameter (the size of the landslide). When it hit Köfels it
created enormous pressures that pulverised the rock and caused the landslide but
because it was no longer a solid object it did not create a classic impact
crater."
> > Mark Hempsell, hinting at the possible fate of Sodom and Gomorrah, adds:
“Another conclusion can be made from the trajectory. The back plume from the
explosion (the mushroom cloud) would be bent over the Mediterranean Sea
re-entering the atmosphere over the Levant, Sinai, and Northern Egypt.
> > “The ground heating though very short would be enough to ignite any
flammable material - including human hair and clothes. It is probable more
people died under the plume than in the Alps due to the impact blast.“
> > While the biblical fate of the legendary dens of vice (“Then the Lord
rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah - from the Lord out of the
heavens” - Genesis 19:24) sits nicely with the asteroid theory, it's never
been categorically proven that they actually existed in their suspected location
close to the Dead Sea.
> > Tales of fiery destruction raining from the skies are not, though,
restricted to the Bible. Hempsall told the Times that "at least 20 ancient myths
record devastation of the type and on the scale of the asteroid’s impact" -
including the Ancient Greek myth of how Phaeton, son of Helios, lost control of
his dad's chariot and plunged into the River Eridanus.
> > A translation of the Planisphere and the researchers' findings can be found
in the book A Sumerian Observation of the Köfels' Impact Event. The tablet is
object number K8538 in the British Museum collection.
> > Unquote
> >
> > See also http://members. westnet.com. au/Gary-David- Thompson/ page11-9.
html for various counter-arguments and a plain drawing of the inscribed side
of the planisphere, by the British Assyriologist Leonard King in 1912 and
corrected by Johannes Koch in 1989.
> >
> > I doubt if any of these theories are valid. Why draw seven dots in a row if
not in fact this planisphere celebrates a date in which seven planets were in
fact seen aligned in a row on the sun's path itself? What seven planets? They
must have included the sun and moon, mercury, venus, mars, jupiter and saturn.
Or are we to assume they also saw Uranus, Neptune and even Pluto? When did such
an alignment occur? Certainly not in 2361 BC or 3123 BC. There was one in 8847
BC, repeated 2 years later (2 years after the Flood?), at the end of the Last
Ice Age, and amazingly, involving all ten planets up to Pluto, perfectly in a
row along the sun's path (except the outish planet Pluto), namely precisely on
the day the Biblical Flood began, the 27th of the second lunar month, Monday 14
August, from Virgo to Pisces: Venus, Moon, Sun, Mercury, Mars, Jupiter, Uranus,
Saturn, Neptune and Pluto! Venus and the Moon were at that moment still Morning
stars, conjunct
> > Sprica. Mercury became evening star 12 days later, when the deathstar
Antares vanished heliacally in the West and all planets could be seen
seen setting one by one in a row throughout the coming nights, until day 34
since 14 August, when Venus disappeared as Morning star and the deathstar
Antares rose heliacally. On day 40 the sun passes the Galactic Center, and the
heavy rains in the Bible end. Mercury vanished in the West on day 44 and
successively each of the planets. But from day 86 onwards the
planets reappeared heliacally one by one in the East. Mercury became evening
star again on day 127, but exactly 150 days after the beginning on 14 August,
when the Biblical Flood ended, on 11 January 8846 BC, both Venus and the Moon
also became evening stars and all planets were visible again throughout the
night, all rising from the east (except of course Venus, Mercury and the Moon,
which were seen in the west after sunset). I haven't found any later
> > such occurrence yet fitting the Biblical Flood story.
> >
> > Also, on 14 August 8847 BC at sunset, the crossing point of the solar path
and the celestial equator (autumn equinox) culminates (south of the zenith) and
is between Pisces and Aquarius (the very WET signs), so if this point was the
center of the planisphere, then if the observer had to lay on the ground with
his head to the South, with the Sun in the correct position in the West on the
horizon with Scorpio, corresponding to the sector with the tail of seven
planets towards the center along the solar path. In fact, the solar and
planetary path on the planisphere also mirrors exactly the form of
Scorpio. Taurus and the Pleiads were just beginning to rise in the East,
corresponding to the opposite sector of the planisphere. Gemini was then in the
correct position far below the eastern horizon, corresponding to the
sector with Gemini in the planisphere.  The sector with the great arrow then
corresponded correctly with Sagittarius (the
> > bowman) above  Scorpio. Whatever the ellipse may mean, it then
corresponds with the area of Leo and its royal star Regulus at the lower
junction of the solar path and the equator (vernal equinox), and perhaps
associated with Procyon, Sirius and Canopus. There is thus no need for
complicated mathematical schemes; it's either there or it isn't.
> >
> > So why not simply date the planisphere to Monday evening 14 August 8847 BC
instead? It certainly fits the geological end of the Last Ice Age, when the
oceans suddenly rose dramatically  and flooded all coastal area's,
necessitating people to flee to higher grounds. It is also the exact year in
which the Pleiads (symbolic of the Flood story) were at their lowest southern
culmination point in the precession cycle and were returning northwards again.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Ian Onvlee
> >

Greetings Mary,

God can use natural or supernatural things.

Examples of supernatural things:
- God used angels throughout the BIble.
- God brought back dead people to life.

Examples of natural things that God used:
- Water is natural, and God used it to drown the evil preflood people
- Stars are natural, Gen 1:11-14 says God made the stars for 5 purposes mostly
involving keeping track of time.

There are several reasons why I think this planisphere has to do with the flood:
1. It was found in the Royal Library of Nineveh along with other such flood
inscriptions such as the Epic of Gilgamesh.
2. The name 'Asshur' was on it - Asshur was Noah's grandson and may have been on
the ark.
3. There are some descriptions on the planisphere which seem to indicate that
the meteors crashed through a water canopy on their way to the earth
4. The celestial information on the planisphere indicates, to me, that this
event on the planisphere happened in 2361bc --- which is really close to the
date of the flood using conventional Bible Chronology such as Ussher, Mauro,
Angstey, and myself.
5. The planisphere describes the path of the meteors/asteroids through the
constellations, then it describes a big smoke plume.  This is a really really
really unique observation. I know of no other such observation on "earth" ever
recorded in the history of mankind. The only other similar observation I know of
was the shoemaker-levy comet colision on Jupiter a few years ago.

Toby

--- In ancient_chronology@yahoogroups.com, Infowolf1@... wrote:
>
> why does The Flood have to have a natural cause? and why could this
> event the planisphere appears to describe not have been something
> much less serious? Like a normal catastrophe not an extinction event
> to beat all extinction events?
>
> Mary Christine
>
>
> In a message dated 4/3/2010 9:07:41 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time ,
> sambacats@... writes:
>
>
>
>
>
> OK Toby,
>
> I know this planisphere. It was recovered from the library of King
> Assurbanipal in Nineveh and dated to circa 800 BC by early investigators. 
Johannes
> Koch more recently dated it to circa 650 BC.The planisphere  itself is not
> dated of course.
>
> I  gather that this is your website (and reference), Toby:
> _http://infinitybiblhttp://infinitybhttp://infhttp://inhttp://infinhttp_
> (http://infinitybiblecode.zoomshare.com/files/Assyrian_Meteor_Path.html)  Well
done. I can see
> that you've worked hard on it. Of course I disagree, and I see  you are
> still holding on to that impossible theory of Dodwell too, obviously  for the
> same reason as your date for the planisphere, based on your Biblical
> (Massoretic) Flooddate.
>
>
> Alan  Bond and Mark Hempsell
> (_http://www.theregishttp://wwwhttp://www.http://www.there_
(http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03/31/kofels_asteroid/) )
> dated  the planisphere to 29 June 3123 BC (the sky chart is practically
> identical at  morning break, with Orion's Girdle rising heliacally):
>
> Quote
> A  Cuneiform clay tablet which for over 150 years defied attempts at
> interpretation has now been revealed to describe an asteroid impact which in
> 3123 BC hit Köfels, Austria, leaving in its wake a trail of destruction which
> may acccount for the biblical tale of Sodom and Gomorrah.
> The  "Planisphere" tablet (see pic) - inscribed around 700 BC - was
> unearthed by  Henry Layard in the remains of the library of the Assyrian royal
> palace at  Nineveh, close to modern-day Mosul, Iraq. It's a copy of the night
> diary of a  Sumerian astronomer containing drawings of constellations and
> "known  constellation names", but it required modern computer tech to finally
> unravel  its exact meaning.
> Alan  Bond, Managing Director of Reaction Engines Ltd and Mark Hempsell,
> Senior  Lecturer in Astronautics at Bristol University, subjected the
> Planisphere to a  programme which "can simulate trajectories and reconstruct
the
> night sky  thousands of years ago". They discovered that it described "events
> in the sky  before dawn on the 29 June 3123 BC", with half of it noting
> "planet positions  and cloud cover, the same as any other night".
>
> The other half, however, records an object "large enough for its shape to
> be noted even though it is still in space" and tracks its trajectory
> relative  to the stars, which "to an error better than one degree is
consistent
> with an  impact at Köfels".
> That a large body had impacted at Köfels had long been suspected, the
> evidence being a giant landslide 500m thick and five kilometres in diameter.
> The site had no impact crater to back the theory, but the researchers now
> believe they have a plausible explanation for that.
> The Bristol Uni press release explains: "The observation suggests the
> asteroid is over a kilometre in diameter and the original orbit about the Sun
> was an Aten type, a class of asteroid that orbit close to the earth, that is
> resonant with the Earth’s orbit. This trajectory explains why there is no
> crater at Köfels.
> "The in coming angle was very low (six degrees) and means the asteroid
> clipped a mountain called Gamskogel above the town of Längenfeld, 11
> kilometres from Köfels, and this caused the asteroid to explode before it 
reached it
> s final impact point.
> "As it travelled down the valley it became a fireball, around five
> kilometres in diameter (the size of the landslide). When it hit Köfels it 
created
> enormous pressures that pulverised the rock and caused the landslide  but
> because it was no longer a solid object it did not create a classic impact
> crater."
> Mark Hempsell, hinting at the possible fate of Sodom and Gomorrah, adds:  “
> Another conclusion can be made from the trajectory. The back plume from the
> explosion (the mushroom cloud) would be bent over the Mediterranean Sea
> re-entering the atmosphere over the Levant, Sinai, and Northern Egypt.
> “The ground heating though very short would be enough to ignite any
> flammable material - including human hair and clothes. It is probable more 
people
> died under the plume than in the Alps due to the impact blast.“
> While the biblical fate of the legendary dens of vice (“Then the Lord
> rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah - from the Lord out of the
> heavens” - Genesis 19:24) sits nicely with the asteroid theory, it's never
> been categorically proven that they actually existed in their suspected
> location close to the Dead Sea.
> Tales of fiery destruction raining from the skies are not, though,
> restricted to the Bible. Hempsall told the Times that "at least  20 ancient
myths
> record devastation of the type and on the scale of the  asteroid’s impact" -
> including the Ancient Greek myth of how Phaeton, son of  Helios, lost
> control of his dad's chariot and plunged into the River  Eridanus.
> A translation of the Planisphere and the researchers' findings can be found
>  in the book A Sumerian Observation of the Köfels' Impact Event. The
> tablet is object number K8538 in the British Museum collection.
> Unquote
>
> See  also _http://members.p://members.p://members.<Wp://membep://membep://_
> (http://members.westnet.com.au/Gary-David-Thompson/page11-9.html)  for
> various counter-arguments and a plain drawing of the inscribed side of  the
> planisphere, by the British Assyriologist Leonard King in 1912 and  corrected
> by Johannes Koch in 1989.
>
> I  doubt if any of these theories are valid. Why draw seven dots in a row
> if  not in fact this planisphere celebrates a date in which seven planets
> were in  fact seen aligned in a row on the sun's path itself? What seven
> planets? They  must have included the sun and moon, mercury, venus, mars,
jupiter
> and saturn.  Or are we to assume they also saw Uranus, Neptune and even
> Pluto? When did  such an alignment occur? Certainly not in 2361 BC or 3123 BC.
> There was one in  8847 BC, repeated 2 years later (2 years after the Flood?),
> at the end of the  Last Ice Age, and amazingly, involving all ten planets
> up to Pluto,  perfectly in a row along the sun's path (except the outish
> planet Pluto),  namely precisely on the day the Biblical Flood began, the 27th
> of the  second lunar month, Monday 14 August, from Virgo to Pisces: Venus,
> Moon, Sun,  Mercury, Mars, Jupiter, Uranus, Saturn, Neptune and Pluto! Venus
> and the Moon  were at that moment still Morning stars, conjunct Sprica.
> Mercury became  evening star 12 days later, when the deathstar Antares
vanished
> heliacally in  the West and all planets could be seen seen setting one by one
> in a row  throughout the coming nights, until day 34 since 14 August, when
> Venus  disappeared as Morning star and the deathstar Antares rose
> heliacally. On day  40 the sun passes the Galactic Center, and the heavy rains
in the
> Bible end.  Mercury vanished in the West on day 44 and successively each of
> the planets.  But from day 86 onwards the planets reappeared heliacally one
> by one  in the East. Mercury became evening star again on day 127, but
> exactly 150  days after the beginning on 14 August, when the Biblical Flood
> ended, on 11  January 8846 BC, both Venus and the Moon also became evening
stars
> and all  planets were visible again throughout the night, all rising from
> the east  (except of course Venus, Mercury and the Moon, which were seen in
> the west after sunset). I haven't found any later such occurrence yet
> fitting the Biblical Flood story.
>
> Also,  on 14 August 8847 BC at sunset, the crossing point of the solar path
> and the  celestial equator (autumn equinox) culminates (south of the
> zenith) and  is between Pisces and Aquarius (the very WET signs), so if this
point
> was the  center of the planisphere, then if the observer had to lay on the
> ground  with his head to the South, with the Sun in the correct position in
> the  West on the horizon with Scorpio, corresponding to the sector with  the
> tail of seven planets towards the center along the solar path. In fact,
> the solar and planetary path on the planisphere also mirrors  exactly the form
> of Scorpio. Taurus and the Pleiads were just  beginning to rise in the
> East, corresponding to the opposite sector of the  planisphere. Gemini was
then
> in the correct position far below the eastern  horizon, corresponding to the
> sector with Gemini in the  planisphere. The sector with the great arrow
> then corresponded correctly  with Sagittarius (the bowman) above Scorpio.
> Whatever the  ellipse may mean, it then corresponds with the area of Leo and
its
> royal star  Regulus at the lower junction of the solar path and the equator
> (vernal  equinox), and perhaps associated with Procyon, Sirius and Canopus.
> There is  thus no need for complicated mathematical schemes; it's either
> there or it  isn't.
>
> So  why not simply date the planisphere to Monday evening 14 August 8847 BC
>  instead? It certainly fits the geological end of the Last Ice Age, when
> the  oceans suddenly rose dramatically and flooded all coastal area's,
> necessitating people to flee to higher grounds. It is also the exact year in
> which the Pleiads (symbolic of the Flood story) were at their lowest  southern
> culmination point in the precession cycle and were returning  northwards
> again.
>
> Regards,
> Ian  Onvlee
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________
>  From: Toby  <zoe_lithoi@...>
> To:  ancient_chronology@  ancient
> Sent: Sat, April 3, 2010 12:22:38  AM
> Subject:  [ancient_chronology  [ancient_chronology<WBR>] Part 1: Assyrian
> Pla
>
>
>
> Assyrian Planisphere
> July 4, 2361bc,  24 minutes before Sunrise
>
> Introduction to the  Planisphere
>
>
>
>
> _Gen  1:14_
> (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gen&c=1&v=1&t=KJV#comm/14)  ¶ And
God said, Let there be  lights in the firmament of the heaven
> (1). to  divide the day from the night; and let them be
> (2). for signs, and
> (3). for seasons, and
> (4). for days, and
> (5).  years:
>
>
>
> The IMPORTANCE of the Assyrian Planisphere:
> 1. The Assyrian Planisphere is an ancient star and  planet chart that
> specifies the exact date (July 4, 2361bc) asteroids  impacted the earth
causing
> The Flood. It also describes the path the  asteroids took through the sky.
> 2. The Assyrian Planisphere indicates several  Earth to Sky mappings
> including the city of Asshur, Damascus, Ur,  Heiroconpolis, Buto, and the
> mountains of Ararat. This Earth-Sky knowledge  is useful because it could give
an
> indication as to where the asteroids  cratered, where the Observer was
> located, and how the Assyrians may have  used the stars to navigate. Such
celestial
> navigation techniques may have  been used by the Wise Men following the
> star of  Bethlehem.
> What is the K8538 Assyrian Planisphere?
> The Assyrian Planisphere is an ancient man-made clay  disc-shaped object
> enscribed with Cuneiform writing and 6 stick figures in the  shape of
> constellations. Some of it is damaged and unreadable. It is  identified
formally as
> K8538 by the British Museum. It is not really a  'tablet' in that it is
> saucer shaped on the bottom and the top is flat where  the scribing appears.
> Inscribed lines divide it up into an 8-sectored pie-like  division. Each
sector
> has celestial information in it. The majority of the  sectors are
> associated with a particular constellation and are arranged in the  order they
appear
> in the sky. It would be a mistake, however, to assume that  all 8 sectors
> conform to this arrangement. 2 of 6 stick figures are identified  as the
> Pisces and Gemini constellations. Some of the remaining 4 stick figures  are
> constellations, but do not correlate to our modern constellation. The rest  of
> the 4 stick figures are not constellations at all, but rather serve other
> purposes. For instance, one such stick figure graphically shows the path of
> the meteors as they pass through several constellations. Engraved in
> cuneiform  are the Assyrian names of  4 constellations: Gemini, Orion, Taurus,
and
> Eridanus. Unlike a 'Zodiac', the planisphere contains only a subset of the
> 12  constellations. Why?  Well, it's purpose is to show what the sky looked
> like on a particular night, and the fact is, only a subset of the 12
> constellations are ever visible on any particular night, hence that is the
> reason why it is called a planisphere, not a zodiac.
> It's Purpose
> "STAR VIGOROUSLY SWEPT ALONG' and 'LARGE STAR'
> These two key phrases appear in cuneiform inscribing in the 'path' sector
> of the Planisphere. In the CANCER sector appears the words
> "MOVING-STAR MOVING-STAR MOVING-STAR MOVING-STAR"
> And in the PISCES sector, 4 dots appear in the middle of a closed
> triangle.
> I contend, that these 4 moving stars are 4 meteors/asteroids that hit the
> earth. Further, I contend, that each of the 8 sectors on the Planisphere
> were  designed to tell the story of the cause of the greatest catastrophe on
> earth,  namely The Flood. Every sector was designed to give information about
> the date  and path of the meteor/asteroid through the sky, as well as it's
> relation to  locations on the earth.
> I suggest, that the greatest catastrophe the world has ever known would be
> a worthy event to write in stone. And some of the oldest cuniform and other
>  tablets in existence, do just that such as the Epic of Gilgamesh, the book
> of  Enoch, and the book of Genesis.
> The cause of the Flood, in my opinion, were asteroids which first crashed
> through the famous pre-flood water canopy covering the land-portion of the
> earth causing it to rain, and secondly impacted the earth causing it to
> 'crack' and the 'fountains of the deep' to break forth. There are 180 known,
> classified, significant craters on the earth. With a couple exceptions, the
> only eyewitness accounts of such HUGE asteroids/meteors are related to the
> flood which occured 4300 years ago.
>

Greetings IAN

You wrote:
"Why draw seven dots in a row� if not in fact this planisphere celebrates a date
in which seven planets were in fact seen aligned in a row on the sun's path
itself? What seven planets? They must have included the sun and moon, mercury,
venus, mars, jupiter and saturn. Or are we to assume they also saw Uranus,
Neptune and even Pluto? When did such an alignment occur? Certainly not in 2361
BC or 3123 BC."

For what it's worth:

. 3956bc Feb 25
- The 2nd book of Enoch chapter 30
- Saturn, Uranus, Mars, Venus, Sun, Jupiter, Mercury all line up (West to east)

This might be the creation alignment of 7 planets. If so, and if the flood
occured 1656 years after creation as Gen 4 and 5 attest, then the flood would be
reckoned to 2300bc (which is within 61 years of the planisphere date.....

Toby

The Date Design   

The Planisphere uses 4 ways to determine the date

1. The Planisphere  describes the hours from Sunset and to Sunrise,
2. the day of the month,
3. It contains the path of the sun and the angle this path makes with a particular constellation as it passes through it. This information is key in dating the asteroid event to a particular millenium.
4. And finally, the Planisphere describes the location of at least 3 planets in certain constellations. This narrows down the month and year.

Every sector was designed to describe either the date, the path of the meteor, and/or a relationship between a location in the sky with it's mapping to earth.

The Meteor Path Design   

If you wanted to graphically show the path a person travels on a journey, how would you do it?

Well, you would likely draw a line and label the end points with the name of say the beginning and terminating cities. You would probably include landmarks along the way - a red barn, a mountain, a river, road-crossings etc.- these landmarks indicate you are on the right path and can indicate how far along on the journey you are.

That is exactly how the Assyrian scribe described the path of the meteors. His job, however was alot more difficult. For one thing, the starting point where the meteor first appeared was not a city, but rather a star. One of Billions. And perhaps the scribe didn't know the name of the star, or even if he knew it, he wanted to identify it graphically in such a way, that it's identity could be determined without knowing it's name.

Well, the Assyrian scribe did it by placing a Triangle on the starting point and a large 'X' at the ending point and a long line represents the path. Each of the 2 lines forming the 'X' are defined by 2 stars (it takes 2 points to define a line).

Each of the 2 lines forming the 'X' are similar to a road-crossing on a highway and lead to other locations.

The cuneiform writing above and below the horizontal path (the longest line) are the phrases I've mentioned earlier "STAR VIGOROUSLY SWEPT ALONG' and 'LARGE STAR'. The cuneiform writing along the upper line forming the 'X' is 'First Envoy o the Milky Way', and this likely refers to the well-known Pleides.   There are really three triangles, on this 'path' line, 2 of them are smaller and all shaded in, while the other triangle is made of 3 lines and not shaded in.  The smaller, shaded triangles logically could refer to stars or the meteors; while the 3-lined, non-shaded triangle refers to the other 3-lined, non-shaded triangle in the Pisces Sector of the planisphere.

Pleiades, then would be the location of one of these 'road crossings'. There are some landmarks near Pleiades which the Assyrian scribe provided for us as well. Pleiades is a star cluster near the Taurus, Orion, and Eridanus constellations.. All 3 of these constellations are identified by name on this planispherian roadmap. Orion is actually identified twice, once in the Gemini Sector and once in the Taurus sector and is called 'The Great Shepherd of the Milky Way". Logically, then, one would not be surprised to discover that some stars in these 3 constellations would be used in further defining the 2 lines, i.e. cross-roads,  forming the 'X'.

I suggest, that the constellational stick figures in the Pisces, Gemini, and North Sectors each contains lines which relate to lines in the stick figure in the Path Sector. The path sector, then, is different than all the other sectors. It shows a view of the whole sky (or a large portion thereof), while the other 7 sectors sequentially represent the sky divided up into 7 segments. Each of these 7 sector would perhaps represent 1/7th of the sky, while the Path sector represents a larger overview, perhaps covering something like 3/4ths of the sky.

 Perhaps the best place to start illustrating the concept that portions of the stick figures in Gemini, Pisces, and the North sectors appear in the Path sector, would be to start with the Gemini Sector because it is the most easily recognizable stick figure on the planisphere.

Cuneiform writing on this clay disk, confirms the identify this Gemini stick figure as 'the constellation of the young twins' - these being the bright stars close to each other: Castor and Pollux. In the figure below, I've overlaid the Gemini Stick Figure from the Planisphere with a star chart from the skyviewcafe online planetarium software. The white dots and triangles are from the Planisphere, while the blue squares are from the skyviewcafe program.

Close examination of this Gemini stick figure, however, reveals a couple surprises. I suggest, that these surprises to us were purposely designed by the author of the planisphere. The first surprise is that one end of this box-like figure is shaped slightly different than our modern day stick figure. Further, the dots on the stick figure, representing stars in the constellation, refer to stars which are dimmer than the modern stars making up Gemini - the visibility of one of the stars. Bond and Hempsell point out, that the visibility of 'Gemini 1' is questionable to the naked eye with a magnitude of 4.18! This lends credence to the theory that the preflood water canopy acted like a lens and magnified the stars.  This dim, "Gemini 1" star was used to form a long arrow extending out of the box-like stick figure. It is also surprising that the 'Gemini 1' 'dot' (it's really triangle shapped) is arguably the largest of the 7 dots in the box-like stick figure of Gemini.. This is even more surprising since 2 of the other 7 dots, Castor and Pollux are 2 of the brightest stars in the whole sky! Another possibility, is that the triangle represented by Gemini 1 is really associated with one of the 2 stars in Orion's right hand.

At the other end of this long line extending out of the Gemini box figure is another large triangle which I believe corresponds to the star Aldebaran. Bond and Hempsell are perplexed by what this triangle 'star' is. I identified Adebarn by simply overlaying the 7 dots of the  Gemini stick figure (including this long extended line) on a star map from the skyviewcafe software program, one can make a good argument that the triangle at the end of the line is none other than the star Aldebaran - the 'bull's eye' in Taurus. The Bull's eye is where the meteor arrow hits the target!. These two 'shaded' triangles on the Gemini stick figure, corresponding to the Gemini 1 and Aldebarn stars, are used instead of the circular 'dots' in the rest of the stick figure - indicating that these particular triangles/stars are special in some way. I suggest they are special in that they are used to form one of the 2 lines forming the 'X' in the Path Sector. 

  Toby

Greetings Ian,

You wrote:
> Question: Where does it state the hours and where the day of the month, and
how do those words read?

In the Cancer sector, see:

http://infinitybiblecode.zoomshare.com/files/Ancient_Planisphere_K8538.html

There are 2 cuneiform phrases. One is interpreted as 24 minutes to sun rise
(this phrase is actually on 2 lines).   The other Phrase is interpreted as 20
days 9 hours and 29 minutes.

Let's look at the first line, using Boerger numbers:

B318 B318 "the rising sun".

The line beneath it is

B318 B125 which is interpretted as "the rising sun 6us" which means the rising
sun in 24minutes. The "us" are Sumerian Units of time relating to the 'arc'....
something about you how there are 360 degrees and these are divided up into
hours and minutes. Well, the Sumerian 'us' units are such that 6us equals about
24 minutes.

Now the second line, using the Boerger numbers:

B471 B570 B471 B570  B471 %%%

Which is interpreted as:
20 120 20 2 20 %%%

where the "20 %%%" is taken as 20/60th
and the whole thing is:

20 days 142 and 20/60th (US)
= 20 days and 142.3US

where US are Assyrian Units of time such that 6us equals 24 minutes

so 142.3us * 24minutes/6us = 569.2minutes

Note that 9 hours = 540 minutes so

569.2minutes - 540 minutes = 29.2minutes

So 142.3us = 9 hours and 29.2minutes

So, what we have, is the 20th day of the month. 9 hours and 29 minutes from
Sunset and 24 minutes to sunrise. The total length of the night, then would be
9hour + 29 minutes + 24 minuts = 9 hours + 53 minutes. Bond and Hempsell use
this info to calculate the approiximate location of the observer.

BTW, the use of the phrase 'rising sun' here in the cancer sector to locate the
Sun in the cancer sector at sunrise on the 20th day of the month. So, whatever
theories you come up with, should reflect this celestial event when you use your
planetarium software to confirm your theories.

There's much more to say on the cancer sector --- including the 2 planets, Mount
Ararat, the LEO constellation, the 4 moving asteroids/meteors, and the water
canopy being dissolved into a strange mat as the asteroids pass though it.

Toby

--- In ancient_chronology@yahoogroups.com, Ian Onvlee <sambacats@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Toby,
>
> You say:
>
> <<
>
> The Planisphere uses 4 ways to determine the date
> 1. The Planisphere�  describes the hours from Sunset and to Sunrise,
> 2. the day of the month,
> 3. It contains the path of the sun and the angle this path makes with a
particular constellation as it passes through it. This information is key in
dating the asteroid event to a particular millenium.
> 4. And finally, the Planisphere describes the location of at least 3 planets
in certain constellations. This narrows down the month and year.
> >>
> �
> Question: Where does it state the hours and where the day of the month, and
how do those words read?
> �
> Regards,
> Ian Onvlee
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Toby <zoe_lithoi@...>
> To: ancient_chronology@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Mon, April 5, 2010 4:06:03 AM
> Subject: [ancient_chronology] Part 2: Assyrian Planisphere: An Introduction
>
> �
> Part 2: Assyrian Planisphere: An Introduction
>
> Greetings...� �
>
> Sorry, the pic's don't show up, below, when I post this using the online yahoo
website in Rich Text format.
>
> �
> The Date Design� �
> The Planisphere uses 4 ways to determine the date
> 1. The Planisphere�  describes the hours from Sunset and to Sunrise,
> 2. the day of the month,
> 3. It contains the path of the sun and the angle this path makes with a
particular constellation as it passes through it. This information is key in
dating the asteroid event to a particular millenium.
> 4. And finally, the Planisphere describes the location of at least 3 planets
in certain constellations. This narrows down the month and year.
> Every sector was designed to describe either the date, the path of the meteor,
and/or a relationship between a location in the sky with it's mapping to earth.
> The Meteor Path Design� �
> If you wanted to graphically show the path a person travels on a journey, how
would you do it?
> Well, you would likely draw a line and label the end points with the name of
say the beginning and terminating cities. You would probably include landmarks
along the way - a red barn, a mountain, a river, road-crossings etc.- these
landmarks indicate you are on the right path and can indicate how far along on
the journey you are.
> That is exactly how the Assyrian scribe described the path of the meteors. His
job, however was alot more difficult. For one thing, the starting point where
the meteor first appeared was not a city, but rather a star. One of Billions.
And perhaps the scribe didn't know the name of the star, or even if he knew it,
he wanted to identify it graphically in such a way, that it's identity could be
determined without knowing it's name.
> Well, the Assyrian scribe did it by placing a Triangle on the starting point
and a large 'X' at the ending point and a long line represents the path. Each of
the 2 lines forming the 'X' are defined by 2 stars (it takes 2 points to define
a line).
> Each of the 2 lines forming the 'X' are similar to a road-crossing on a
highway and lead to other locations.
> The cuneiform writing above and below the horizontal path (the longest line)
are the phrases I've mentioned earlier "STAR VIGOROUSLY SWEPT ALONG' and 'LARGE
STAR'. The cuneiform writing along the upper line forming the 'X' is 'First
Envoy o the Milky Way', and this likely refers to the well-known Pleides.� � 
There are really three triangles, on this 'path' line, 2 of them are smaller and
all shaded in, while the other triangle is made of 3 lines and not shaded in.� 
The smaller, shaded triangles logically could refer to stars or the meteors;
while the 3-lined, non-shaded triangle refers to the other 3-lined, non-shaded
triangle in the Pisces Sector of the planisphere.
> Pleiades, then would be the location of one of these 'road crossings'. There
are some landmarks near Pleiades which the Assyrian scribe provided for us as
well. Pleiades is a star cluster near the Taurus, Orion, and Eridanus
constellations. . All 3 of these constellations are identified by name on this
planispherian roadmap. Orion is actually identified twice, once in the Gemini
Sector and once in the Taurus sector and is called 'The Great Shepherd of the
Milky Way". Logically, then, one would not be surprised to discover that some
stars in these 3 constellations would be used in further defining the 2 lines,
i.e. cross-roads,�  forming the 'X'.
> I suggest, that the constellational stick figures in the Pisces, Gemini, and
North Sectors each contains lines which relate to lines in the stick figure in
the Path Sector. The path sector, then, is different than all the other sectors.
It shows a view of the whole sky (or a large portion thereof), while the other 7
sectors sequentially represent the sky divided up into 7 segments. Each of these
7 sector would perhaps represent 1/7th of the sky, while the Path sector
represents a larger overview, perhaps covering something like 3/4ths of the sky.
> � Perhaps the best place to start illustrating the concept that portions of
the stick figures in Gemini, Pisces, and the North sectors appear in the Path
sector, would be to start with the Gemini Sector because it is the most easily
recognizable stick figure on the planisphere.
> Cuneiform writing on this clay disk, confirms the identify this Gemini stick
figure as 'the constellation of the young twins' - these being the bright stars
close to each other: Castor and Pollux. In the figure below, I've overlaid the
Gemini Stick Figure from the Planisphere with a star chart from the skyviewcafe
online planetarium software. The white dots and triangles are from the
Planisphere, while the blue squares are from the skyviewcafe program.
> Close examination of this Gemini stick figure, however, reveals a couple
surprises. I suggest, that these surprises to us were purposely designed by the
author of the planisphere. The first surprise is that one end of this box-like
figure is shaped slightly different than our modern day stick figure. Further,
the dots on the stick figure, representing stars in the constellation, refer to
stars which are dimmer than the modern stars making up Gemini - the visibility
of one of the stars. Bond and Hempsell point out, that the visibility of 'Gemini
1' is questionable to the naked eye with a magnitude of 4.18! This lends
credence to the theory that the preflood water canopy acted like a lens and
magnified the stars.�  This dim, "Gemini 1" star was used to form a long arrow
extending out of the box-like stick figure. It is also surprising that the
'Gemini 1' 'dot' (it's really triangle shapped) is arguably the largest of the 7
dots in the box-like stick figure
>  of Gemini.. This is even more surprising since 2 of the other 7 dots, Castor
and Pollux are 2 of the brightest stars in the whole sky! Another possibility,
is that the triangle represented by Gemini 1 is really associated with one of
the 2 stars in Orion's right hand.
> At the other end of this long line extending out of the Gemini box figure is
another large triangle which I believe corresponds to the star Aldebaran. Bond
and Hempsell are perplexed by what this triangle 'star' is. I identified Adebarn
by simply overlaying the 7 dots of the�  Gemini stick figure (including this
long extended line) on a star map from the skyviewcafe software program, one can
make a good argument that the triangle at the end of the line is none other than
the star Aldebaran - the 'bull's eye' in Taurus. The Bull's eye is where the
meteor arrow hits the target!. These two 'shaded' triangles on the Gemini stick
figure, corresponding to the Gemini 1 and Aldebarn stars, are used instead of
the circular 'dots' in the rest of the stick figure - indicating that these
particular triangles/stars are special in some way. I suggest they are special
in that they are used to form one of the 2 lines forming the 'X' in the Path
Sector.�
> �  Toby
>

http://www.testimony-magazine.org/back/nov2002/hurn.pdf

This is a piece on the Red/Reed Sea debate that I have pre-published from my
upcoming book on the Exodus Routes and Sites. As the book is still pending, I
will be glad of any comments, so this section may be adjusted if necessary.

Thanks, Deb

--- In ancient_chronology@yahoogroups.com, Infowolf1@... wrote:
>
> if you got one sea that sprawls in a fork or something, then
> you are going to have more than one possible location.
>
> Mary Christine
>
>
> In a message dated 2/16/2010 2:07:45 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
> zoe_lithoi@... writes:
>
>
>
>
> Hi Vern et.al.
>
> I'm still fuzzy on why you would think Scripture  refers to 2 different
> places called the "Red Sea". Anyways....
>
> Have you  looked into the location of Eloth (also called Elath) and
> Eziongeber, two  cities near each other, and which, according to the following
> verses, are  located on or near the Red Sea?
>
> 1Ki 9:26 And king Solomon made a navy  of ships in Eziongeber, which [is]
> beside Eloth, on the shore of the Red sea,  in the land of Edom.
>
> Deu 2:1 ¶ Then we turned, and took our journey  into the wilderness by the
> way of the Red sea, as the LORD spake unto me: and  we compassed mount Seir
> many days.
> Deu 2:8 And when we passed by from our  brethren the children of Esau,
> which dwelt in Seir, through the way of the  plain from Elath, and from
> Eziongaber, we turned and passed by the way of the  wilderness of Moab.
>
> Toby
>
> --- In _ancient_chronology@ancient_chroanc_
> (mailto:ancient_chronology@yahoogroups.com) ,  "verncrisler" <vcrisler3@...>
wrote:
> >
> > --- In _ancient_chronology@ancient_chroanc_
> (mailto:ancient_chronology@yahoogroups.com) ,  Ian Onvlee <sambacats@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi  Vern,
> > >
> > > <<The chariots of the Exodus Pharaoh  were lost at the Red Sea along
> with the Exodus Pharaoh, so it's not likely  we'll ever find them in a tomb
> somewhere. >>
> > >
> > >  According to the Bible they were lost at the Yam Suf ('Sea of reeds'),
>  wherever that may be. It doesn't say the Red Sea, but who  knows.Â
> >
> >
> > Depending on context, the Bible uses  the term "Red Sea" (yam suf) to
> refer either to the western Red Sea (bordering  Egypt, i.e., the Gulf of
Suez),
> or to the eastern Red Sea (in the land of  Edom, i.e., the Gulf of Aqaba).
> >
> > In some cases, Hebrew "suf"  refers to "reeds" as in Exodus 2:3ff., where
> the mother of Moses placed the  ark in the reeds (suf) and where the
> daughter of Pharaoh found Moses.  Literally, the biblical term "yam suf" means
> "sea of reeds," but that is an  etymological translation, not an
identification
> of the body of water in  question. Many believe "suf" is a loan word from
> Egyptian "twf" (meaning  papyrus).
> >
> > The term "suf" in "yam suf" simply refers to what  may have been the
> ORIGIN of the name "Red Sea" not to its geographical  location. Some claim
that
> the western Red Sea (Gulf of Suez) cannot be meant  as the place of the
> Israelite crossing because reeds do not grow in salt  water. However, this is
an
> illustration of what D. A. Carson called "the root  fallacy":
> >
> > "One of the most enduring of errors, the root  fallacy presupposes that
> every word actually *has* a meaning bound up with its  shape or its
> components. In this view, meaning is determined by etymology;  that is, by the
root
> or roots of a word." (*Exegetical Fallacies*, 1996, pp.  28ff.)
> >
> > For instance, our English word "nice" means pleasant  or good, but its
> Latin root means "ignorant." (Idem.) Thus, a translation  cannot always be
> based on etymology, but has to be based on usage and context  as well. If
> that's true of translation, it goes double for interpretation  (e.g., location
or
> identification)
> >
> > So the literal or  root meaning cannot in itself be used as a geographic
> indicator. This is shown  by Numbers 33:10, where the term "Red Sea" (yam
> suf) has reference to the  eastern Red Sea, the salt-water Gulf of Aqaba. It
> does not refer to a  fresh-water lake of reeds. In 1 Kings 9:26, Ezion Geber
> is located on the  shore of the eastern Red Sea ("yam suf") bordering the
> land of Edom, again the  Gulf of Aqaba, not a fresh-water marsh. (See also,
> Jer. 49:21.)
> >
> > With respect to the Red Sea of the Israelite crossing, the Septuagint
> translates the term "yam suf" as "Red Sea" (eruthra thalasse). This is not so
> much a literal translation of "yam suf" as it is an identification of it
> with  the western Red Sea. Thus, the Jews of the 3rd to the 1st century BC
> understood "yam suf" as referring to the traditional Red Sea (Gulf of Suez).
> Note that "eruthra thalassa" is not a reference to reed-filled lake marshes
> since eruthra means "red" not "reeds."
> >
> > The New Testament  writers also ascribed the Israelite crossing to the
> western Red Sea (Acts  7:36, Hebrews 11:29). Here they also used eruthra
> thalassa (red sea) to  translate the Hebrew yam suf (sea of reeds). The
authority
> of the New  Testament seems decisive to me.
> >
> > I think the reason  translators want to translate "yam suf" as referring
> to the northern marshes  above the Gulf of Suez is simply because they are
> attempting to downplay the  miraculous and provide a naturalistic explanation
> for the crossing.
> >
> > I don't think Christians have this option if they really believe in  the
> biblical philosophy of history vis-à-vis a naturalistic, uniformitarian
> philosophy of history.
> >
> > (See for discussion, James K.  Hoffmeier, *Israel in Egypt*, 1996, pp.
> 199ff; Nahum M. Sarna, *Exploring  Exodus*, 1986, pp. 106ff; Colin J.
> Humphreys, *The Miracles of Exodus*, 2003,  pp. 172ff; .)
> >
> > For New Courville, a crossing at the Gulf of  Suez is consistent with the
> MB1 Exodus theory as MB1 indicia have been found  on both sides of the
> western Red Sea. As we said in the essay "Crossing the  Red Sea," 2007:
> >
> > Begin-----
> >
> > Gebel Atika (or  Ataqah) is on the west side of the Gulf of Suez, about
> 10 miles or so below  the town of Suez, which is on the northern tip of the
> Gulf of Suez. Atika  faces somewhat laterally the site of Ayun Musa on the
> eastern side of the Gulf  (about 13 miles across the Gulf). It is possible
> that these sites are the  approximate stations where the crossing of the Red
> Sea took place, between  Atika and Ayun Musa. If the MB1 people are the
> Israelites, and we find MB1 on  both sides of the Gulf of Suez, this bears a
> striking resemblance to the  history recorded in Exodus, where the Israelites
> were in fact on both sides of  the Red Sea."
> >
> > . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> >
> >  Here we wish to discuss in detail the archaeology of the Middle Bronze 1
>  settlements across the Negev and northern Sinai. In terms of both Classic
> and  New Courville, the MB1 people are the Israelites, so it is not
> surprising that  the MB1 distribution in the Kadesh-barnea region would seem
to
> track well with  the history of the Israelites. In a previous chapter, it was
> pointed out that  the MB1 distribution is on both sides of the Red Sea (Gulf
> of Suez), so that  there is a significant correlation with the history of the
> Israelites at the  time of the Exodus. To cite Rothenberg again:
> >
> > "The area of  distribution of the occupation wave of Early Bronze Age IV
> comprises the  border region of the Negev all the way down to the Red Sea…
> .Considerable  remains of that period were, astonishingly, found also on the
> Mittla and Giddi  Passes, as far as the banks of the Suez Canal between Port
> Taufiq [at the  eastern tip of the Gulf of Suez] and the Small Bitter Lake
> [north of the  Gulf]�"and across the Suez Canal to Gebel Atika in Lower
> Egypt." (Sinai, p.  121.)
> >
> > The site of Gebel Atika is on the western side of the  Gulf of Suez, in
> Lower Egypt proper, while all other EB4 (i.e., MB1) sites are  on the eastern
> side of the Gulf of Suez, or up around the Bitter Lakes area.  This matches
> what the Bible says, in that the Israelites turned away from the
> Wilderness and went back over to the western side of the Red Sea (thus 
allowing the
> Exodus pharaoh to catch them with their backs against the sea).  While we
> cannot prove on the basis of the MB1 distribution that the Israelites  crossed
> the Red Sea by miraculous intervention, the situation on the ground is  at
> least consistent with the biblical narrative, and certainly calls for an
> intensive archaeological research program in the area.
> >
> >  End-------
> >
> > _http://vernerable.http://verhttp://vernerablhttp://vehttp://verne_
> (http://vernerable.wordpress.com/archaeology/crossing-the-red-sea/)
> >
> >
> > Vern
> >
>

Hi Ian,

You wrote:
> Firstly: what makes the Cancer sector the Cancer sector? There is nothing in
it saying: 'this is Cancer" and this in "Leo". The Gemini sector is the only one
quite definitely secured.

I disagree. While time does not permit a discussion of all the constellations
indicated on the planisphere, nor the explanation for the identification of
Cancer, I would, however, like to discuss Orion and Taurus.

The Planisphere identifies Orion in 2 of it's sectors: Gemini and "the sector
next to it". Orion, is between Gemini and Taurus constellations, so since Orion
appears, in cuneiform, in both the Gemini sector of the Planisphere and the
sector next to it, then I accept this as evidence that the sector next to the
Gemini sector is Taurus, and from now on will call it the Taurus sector. As
further evidence,  though damaged, this Taurus sector also has a partial
scribing of the word Taurus in it.

Evidence that the cuneiform writing in these 2 sectors refers to Orion can be
deduced from the Mul Apin Tablets. Since we agree on Gemini, consider the
following link which addresses Gemini, Orion, and Taurus:

http://www.lexiline.com/lexiline/lexi174.htm
====================================================
Column II
1. The heavenly steer (GU4.AN.NA), the god of the
(wooden)-tablet (GISH)Le, the Crown of Anu.
AK: According to Papke, this is Taurus, the steer.


2. The Loyal Shepherd of Heaven (SIPA.ZI.AN.NA),
d.Papsukkal, the messenger of d.Anu and d.Ishtar
AK: Papke states that this is the constellation Orion. According to Papke,

3./4. The Twins (MASH.TAB.BA) who are near
the loyal shepherd of heaven: d.LU.LAL [Pollux] and d.LaTARAK [Al Dhira'an] AK:
This is Gemini, the twins,
====================================================

Please note the constellations are given in this order:

Taurus, Orion, and Gemini. This is the same order they appear on the
planisphere, with the note that Orion does not have it's own 'sector', but is
located in both the Gemini and Taurus sectors, next to the border itself
something like this:

Gemini Sector
    Gemini Stick Figure
    Orion (Great Shepherd of Heaven (Milky Way)
--------------------- (Border)
Taurus Sector
    Orion (Great Shepherd of HEaven)
                 (Partial spelling of Taurus)


Make sense so far?

Now, note that, in the text given above, the Mul Apin relates Orion to the
cuneiform:
   SIPA.ZI.AN.NA

This is the phrase that appears in both the Gemini and Taurus sectors of the
planisphere.

You wrote:
"It depends on how you look at the sky. In my interpretation your Cancer sector
is the Taurus sector"

And that makes no sense to me. Why? Well, this Cancer Sector (your Taurus
Sector) is not only not next to the Gemini Sector, there are 3 sectors between
it and the Gemini Sector. In the Zodiac, Taurus and Gemini are next to each
other with Orions hand kind of between them. There is no way there are 3
constellations between Gemini and Taurus no matter what path you take.

You wrote:
"Secondly, in my interpretation this 'horizon' of your Cancer sector is indeed
the 'rising horizon'� but not per sé sunrise. It is the rising of the Pleiads,�
24 minutes after sunset.
> Thirdly, those numbers are nothing more than a bunch of numbers. It can be
interpreted any other way. But if the interpretation is taken for granted that
it indeed means that the night was 9 hours 53 minutes long, it would mean in my
interpretation of the planisphere� dated to 24 minutes after sunset: "

I'm not sure what 'sé' means, but I get the gist of what you're saying. The
problem with your view is that there is too much sunlight to see pleiades 24
minutes after sunrise. You could see pleiades 24 minutes before sunrise.

You wrote:
" Fourthly, how on Earth are we to expect the ancients of 2361 BC and earlier to
have been able to measure exact time without some stable clock-device. As far as
I know their time notions can only be relative and aproximate. They could
measure a distance a star moved relative to the division of� the night time in
three 'time' sectors or 'watches'."

As far as I know .....
As far as I know .....
As far as I know .....

Doesn't sound like you KNOW. But there is a reasonable explanation. The preflood
people were likely much more advanced, technically, than the post-flood people.
The evidence for preflood technology is based on this scripture about a preflood
person named Tubalcain:

Gen 4:22 ...Tubalcain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron:...

Noah was not able to take much technology with him on the ark. If manufacturing
plants existed prior to the flood, it would take millenium afterward to
reestablish such technology.

Toby

--- In ancient_chronology@yahoogroups.com, Ian Onvlee <sambacats@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Toby,
>
> I'm not convinced that these interpretations are correct.
>
> Firstly: what makes the Cancer sector the Cancer sector? There is nothing in
it saying: 'this is Cancer" and this in "Leo". The Gemini sector is the only one
quite definitely secured. It depends on how you look at the sky. In my
interpretation your Cancer sector is the Taurus sector, with the Pleiads rising,
and the opposite sector with the triangle and trail of seven dots is the
Scorpion sector, where the word 'down' can be read six times, meaning the
setting horizon. The sector you call the Taurus sector is according to me the
Leo sector.
>
> Secondly, in my interpretation this 'horizon' of your Cancer sector is indeed
the 'rising horizon' but not per sé sunrise. It is the rising of the
Pleiads, 24 minutes after sunset.  
>
> Thirdly, those numbers are nothing more than a bunch of numbers. It can be
interpreted any other way. But if the interpretation is taken for granted that
it indeed means that the night was 9 hours 53 minutes long, it would mean in my
interpretation of the planisphere dated to 24 minutes after sunset: a location
at lattitude 30-31 degrees North, thus near Ur or perhaps at Memphis or on
mount Atlas, or at Shanghai. 
>
> Fourthly, how on Earth are we to expect the ancients of 2361 BC and earlier to
have been able to measure exact time without some stable clock-device. As far as
I know their time notions can only be relative and aproximate. They could
measure a distance a star moved relative to the division of the night time in
three 'time' sectors or 'watches'.
>
> Regards,
> Ian Onvlee
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Toby <zoe_lithoi@...>
> To: ancient_chronology@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tue, April 6, 2010 4:33:17 AM
> Subject: [ancient_chronology] Re: Part 2: Assyrian Planisphere: An
Introduction
>
>  
> Greetings Ian,
>
> You wrote:
> > Question: Where does it state the hours and where the day of the month, and
how do those words read?
>
> In the Cancer sector, see:
>
> http://infinitybibl ecode.zoomshare. com/files/ Ancient_Planisph ere_K8538.
html
>
> There are 2 cuneiform phrases. One is interpreted as 24 minutes to sun rise
(this phrase is actually on 2 lines). The other Phrase is interpreted as 20 days
9 hours and 29 minutes.
>
> Let's look at the first line, using Boerger numbers:
>
> B318 B318 "the rising sun".
>
> The line beneath it is
>
> B318 B125 which is interpretted as "the rising sun 6us" which means the rising
sun in 24minutes. The "us" are Sumerian Units of time relating to the 'arc'....
something about you how there are 360 degrees and these are divided up into
hours and minutes. Well, the Sumerian 'us' units are such that 6us equals about
24 minutes.
>
> Now the second line, using the Boerger numbers:
>
> B471 B570 B471 B570 B471 %%%
>
> Which is interpreted as:
> 20 120 20 2 20 %%%
>
> where the "20 %%%" is taken as 20/60th
> and the whole thing is:
>
> 20 days 142 and 20/60th (US)
> = 20 days and 142.3US
>
> where US are Assyrian Units of time such that 6us equals 24 minutes
>
> so 142.3us * 24minutes/6us = 569.2minutes
>
> Note that 9 hours = 540 minutes so
>
> 569.2minutes - 540 minutes = 29.2minutes
>
> So 142.3us = 9 hours and 29.2minutes
>
> So, what we have, is the 20th day of the month. 9 hours and 29 minutes from
Sunset and 24 minutes to sunrise. The total length of the night, then would be
9hour + 29 minutes + 24 minuts = 9 hours + 53 minutes. Bond and Hempsell use
this info to calculate the approiximate location of the observer.
>
> BTW, the use of the phrase 'rising sun' here in the cancer sector to locate
the Sun in the cancer sector at sunrise on the 20th day of the month. So,
whatever theories you come up with, should reflect this celestial event when you
use your planetarium software to confirm your theories.
>
> There's much more to say on the cancer sector --- including the 2 planets,
Mount Ararat, the LEO constellation, the 4 moving asteroids/meteors, and the
water canopy being dissolved into a strange mat as the asteroids pass though it.
>
> Toby
>
> --- In ancient_chronology@ yahoogroups. com, Ian Onvlee <sambacats@ ..> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Toby,
> >
> > You say:
> >
> > <<
> >
> > The Planisphere uses 4 ways to determine the date
> > 1. The Planisphere describes the hours from Sunset and to Sunrise,
> > 2. the day of the month,
> > 3. It contains the path of the sun and the angle this path makes with a
particular constellation as it passes through it. This information is key in
dating the asteroid event to a particular millenium.
> > 4. And finally, the Planisphere describes the location of at least 3 planets
in certain constellations. This narrows down the month and year.
> > >>
> > Â
> > Question: Where does it state the hours and where the day of the month, and
how do those words read?
> > Â
> > Regards,
> > Ian Onvlee
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > From: Toby <zoe_lithoi@ ...>
> > To: ancient_chronology@ yahoogroups. com
> > Sent: Mon, April 5, 2010 4:06:03 AM
> > Subject: [ancient_chronology ] Part 2: Assyrian Planisphere: An Introduction
> >
> > Â
> > Part 2: Assyrian Planisphere: An Introduction
> >
> > Greetings... Â
> >
> > Sorry, the pic's don't show up, below, when I post this using the online
yahoo website in Rich Text format.
> >
> > Â
> > The Date Design Â
> > The Planisphere uses 4 ways to determine the date
> > 1. The Planisphere describes the hours from Sunset and to Sunrise,
> > 2. the day of the month,
> > 3. It contains the path of the sun and the angle this path makes with a
particular constellation as it passes through it. This information is key in
dating the asteroid event to a particular millenium.
> > 4. And finally, the Planisphere describes the location of at least 3 planets
in certain constellations. This narrows down the month and year.
> > Every sector was designed to describe either the date, the path of the
meteor, and/or a relationship between a location in the sky with it's mapping to
earth.
> > The Meteor Path Design Â
> > If you wanted to graphically show the path a person travels on a journey,
how would you do it?
> > Well, you would likely draw a line and label the end points with the name of
say the beginning and terminating cities. You would probably include landmarks
along the way - a red barn, a mountain, a river, road-crossings etc.- these
landmarks indicate you are on the right path and can indicate how far along on
the journey you are.
> > That is exactly how the Assyrian scribe described the path of the meteors.
His job, however was alot more difficult. For one thing, the starting point
where the meteor first appeared was not a city, but rather a star. One of
Billions. And perhaps the scribe didn't know the name of the star, or even if he
knew it, he wanted to identify it graphically in such a way, that it's identity
could be determined without knowing it's name.
> > Well, the Assyrian scribe did it by placing a Triangle on the starting point
and a large 'X' at the ending point and a long line represents the path. Each of
the 2 lines forming the 'X' are defined by 2 stars (it takes 2 points to define
a line).
> > Each of the 2 lines forming the 'X' are similar to a road-crossing on a
highway and lead to other locations.
> > The cuneiform writing above and below the horizontal path (the longest line)
are the phrases I've mentioned earlier "STAR VIGOROUSLY SWEPT ALONG' and 'LARGE
STAR'. The cuneiform writing along the upper line forming the 'X' is 'First
Envoy o the Milky Way', and this likely refers to the well-known Pleides. Â
There are really three triangles, on this 'path' line, 2 of them are smaller and
all shaded in, while the other triangle is made of 3 lines and not shaded in.Â
The smaller, shaded triangles logically could refer to stars or the meteors;
while the 3-lined, non-shaded triangle refers to the other 3-lined, non-shaded
triangle in the Pisces Sector of the planisphere.
> > Pleiades, then would be the location of one of these 'road crossings'. There
are some landmarks near Pleiades which the Assyrian scribe provided for us as
well. Pleiades is a star cluster near the Taurus, Orion, and Eridanus
constellations. . All 3 of these constellations are identified by name on this
planispherian roadmap. Orion is actually identified twice, once in the Gemini
Sector and once in the Taurus sector and is called 'The Great Shepherd of the
Milky Way". Logically, then, one would not be surprised to discover that some
stars in these 3 constellations would be used in further defining the 2 lines,
i.e. cross-roads, forming the 'X'.
> > I suggest, that the constellational stick figures in the Pisces, Gemini, and
North Sectors each contains lines which relate to lines in the stick figure in
the Path Sector. The path sector, then, is different than all the other sectors.
It shows a view of the whole sky (or a large portion thereof), while the other 7
sectors sequentially represent the sky divided up into 7 segments. Each of these
7 sector would perhaps represent 1/7th of the sky, while the Path sector
represents a larger overview, perhaps covering something like 3/4ths of the sky.
> > Â Perhaps the best place to start illustrating the concept that portions of
the stick figures in Gemini, Pisces, and the North sectors appear in the Path
sector, would be to start with the Gemini Sector because it is the most easily
recognizable stick figure on the planisphere.
> > Cuneiform writing on this clay disk, confirms the identify this Gemini stick
figure as 'the constellation of the young twins' - these being the bright stars
close to each other: Castor and Pollux. In the figure below, I've overlaid the
Gemini Stick Figure from the Planisphere with a star chart from the skyviewcafe
online planetarium software. The white dots and triangles are from the
Planisphere, while the blue squares are from the skyviewcafe program.
> > Close examination of this Gemini stick figure, however, reveals a couple
surprises. I suggest, that these surprises to us were purposely designed by the
author of the planisphere. The first surprise is that one end of this box-like
figure is shaped slightly different than our modern day stick figure. Further,
the dots on the stick figure, representing stars in the constellation, refer to
stars which are dimmer than the modern stars making up Gemini - the visibility
of one of the stars. Bond and Hempsell point out, that the visibility of 'Gemini
1' is questionable to the naked eye with a magnitude of 4.18! This lends
credence to the theory that the preflood water canopy acted like a lens and
magnified the stars. This dim, "Gemini 1" star was used to form a long arrow
extending out of the box-like stick figure. It is also surprising that the
'Gemini 1' 'dot' (it's really triangle shapped) is arguably the largest of the 7
dots in the box-like stick
>  figure
> > of Gemini.. This is even more surprising since 2 of the other 7 dots, Castor
and Pollux are 2 of the brightest stars in the whole sky! Another possibility,
is that the triangle represented by Gemini 1 is really associated with one of
the 2 stars in Orion's right hand.
> > At the other end of this long line extending out of the Gemini box figure is
another large triangle which I believe corresponds to the star Aldebaran. Bond
and Hempsell are perplexed by what this triangle 'star' is. I identified Adebarn
by simply overlaying the 7 dots of the Gemini stick figure (including this
long extended line) on a star map from the skyviewcafe software program, one can
make a good argument that the triangle at the end of the line is none other than
the star Aldebaran - the 'bull's eye' in Taurus. The Bull's eye is where the
meteor arrow hits the target!. These two 'shaded' triangles on the Gemini stick
figure, corresponding to the Gemini 1 and Aldebarn stars, are used instead of
the circular 'dots' in the rest of the stick figure - indicating that these
particular triangles/stars are special in some way. I suggest they are special
in that they are used to form one of the 2 lines forming the 'X' in the Path
Sector.Â
> > Â Toby
> >
>

Thanks Bruce. Very interesting and right on target for the section I am
currently re-working. I had already concluded that the isthmus levels must have
risen in historical times, and particularly in the south, consistent with the
increasing elevations from north to south in the Sinai and on the west side of
the Gulf.

I also agree that the isthmus at the time of the Exodus was probably under quite
a lot more water throughout than it is now. I am looking for a lost reference
that says that the lakes Menzaleh and Ballah in the north of the isthmus were
once joined together and subject to inflow from the Mediterranean Sea. Anyone
know?

At that time, dry passage was limited to the strips of high ground through El
Gisr (just north of Lake Timsah) and the Serapeum area (just south of Lake
Timsah). There is a good cross section of the entire length of the isthmus in
Menashe Har-El's book, Sinai Journeys. It also shows a third rise through the
Shalluf, but that is in the south (just north of Suez) and this is the section
that I think was probably lower then, so that the Gulf was (seasonally?)
extended through a natural channel in the Shalluf to include the Bitter Lakes.

Interesting about the pole shifts theory, Bruce, I will check it out.

Yes, my book is written with Karkom as Sinai...with that key in the lock, all
the routes and sites come tumbling out :-)

Deb


--- In ancient_chronology@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Killian" <bakillian@...>
wrote:
>
> Deb,
>
> At the time of the Exodus at the end of the sixth dynasty, the topography of
the area of the Red/Reed sea crossing was different, it has changed by the land
level rising.  At the time of the Exodus the only way to travel from Egypt to
Canaan was to travel on the narrow spit sand that had spanned the gap between
these continents, it was called the way of the sea. The sea of reeds was the
most northerly portion of the Gulf of Suez and was fed by one of the
distributaries or branches in the Nile delta so it was fresher than today. The
level of the land has risen so previously there is a much smaller gap between
the Gulf of Suez and the Mediterranean Sea.  The reason the land is higher today
is because of two pole shifts the one in the days of Joshua and the one in the
days of Hezekiah.  http://www.scripturescholar.com/JoshuasLongDay.htm. For my
dating and understanding of the Exodus see
http://www.scripturescholar.com/BibleArchaeology.htm I am sure the site of Sinai
is Har Karkom and is documented by Emmanuel Anati. It dates to the proper time
period. The Traditional site of Mt. Sinai does not have the space for 2 million
people to camp around it. The site in Saudi Arabia is way too far to get there
in the allotted time and the Gulf of Aqaba is too far to be reached in three
days from the Nile delta.
>
>
>
> May God multiply love, grace and peace to you,
>
> Bruce
>
>   _____
>
> From: ancient_chronology@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:ancient_chronology@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of debhurn
> Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 8:13 PM
> To: ancient_chronology@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [ancient_chronology] Re: Red Sea or Marshes of Reeds?
>
>
>
>
>
> http://www.testimon <http://www.testimony-magazine.org/back/nov2002/hurn.pdf>
y-magazine.org/back/nov2002/hurn.pdf
>
> This is a piece on the Red/Reed Sea debate that I have pre-published from my
upcoming book on the Exodus Routes and Sites. As the book is still pending, I
will be glad of any comments, so this section may be adjusted if necessary.
>
> Thanks, Deb
>
> --- In ancient_chronology@ <mailto:ancient_chronology%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com, Infowolf1@ wrote:
> >
> > if you got one sea that sprawls in a fork or something, then
> > you are going to have more than one possible location.
> >
> > Mary Christine
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 2/16/2010 2:07:45 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
> > zoe_lithoi@ writes:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Vern et.al.
> >
> > I'm still fuzzy on why you would think Scripture refers to 2 different
> > places called the "Red Sea". Anyways....
> >
> > Have you looked into the location of Eloth (also called Elath) and
> > Eziongeber, two cities near each other, and which, according to the
following
> > verses, are located on or near the Red Sea?
> >
> > 1Ki 9:26 And king Solomon made a navy of ships in Eziongeber, which [is]
> > beside Eloth, on the shore of the Red sea, in the land of Edom.
> >
> > Deu 2:1 ¶ Then we turned, and took our journey into the wilderness by the
> > way of the Red sea, as the LORD spake unto me: and we compassed mount Seir
> > many days.
> > Deu 2:8 And when we passed by from our brethren the children of Esau,
> > which dwelt in Seir, through the way of the plain from Elath, and from
> > Eziongaber, we turned and passed by the way of the wilderness of Moab.
> >
> > Toby
> >
> > --- In _ancient_chronology@ancient_chroanc_
> > (mailto:ancient_chronology@ <mailto:ancient_chronology%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com) , "verncrisler" <vcrisler3@> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In _ancient_chronology@ancient_chroanc_
> > (mailto:ancient_chronology@ <mailto:ancient_chronology%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com) , Ian Onvlee <sambacats@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi Vern,
> > > >
> > > > <<The chariots of the Exodus Pharaoh were lost at the Red Sea along
> > with the Exodus Pharaoh, so it's not likely we'll ever find them in a tomb
> > somewhere. >>
> > > >
> > > > According to the Bible they were lost at the Yam Suf ('Sea of reeds'),
> > wherever that may be. It doesn't say the Red Sea, but who knows.Â
> > >
> > >
> > > Depending on context, the Bible uses the term "Red Sea" (yam suf) to
> > refer either to the western Red Sea (bordering Egypt, i.e., the Gulf of
Suez),
> > or to the eastern Red Sea (in the land of Edom, i.e., the Gulf of Aqaba).
> > >
> > > In some cases, Hebrew "suf" refers to "reeds" as in Exodus 2:3ff., where
> > the mother of Moses placed the ark in the reeds (suf) and where the
> > daughter of Pharaoh found Moses. Literally, the biblical term "yam suf"
means
> > "sea of reeds," but that is an etymological translation, not an
identification
> > of the body of water in question. Many believe "suf" is a loan word from
> > Egyptian "twf" (meaning papyrus).
> > >
> > > The term "suf" in "yam suf" simply refers to what may have been the
> > ORIGIN of the name "Red Sea" not to its geographical location. Some claim
that
> > the western Red Sea (Gulf of Suez) cannot be meant as the place of the
> > Israelite crossing because reeds do not grow in salt water. However, this is
an
> > illustration of what D. A. Carson called "the root fallacy":
> > >
> > > "One of the most enduring of errors, the root fallacy presupposes that
> > every word actually *has* a meaning bound up with its shape or its
> > components. In this view, meaning is determined by etymology; that is, by
the root
> > or roots of a word." (*Exegetical Fallacies*, 1996, pp. 28ff.)
> > >
> > > For instance, our English word "nice" means pleasant or good, but its
> > Latin root means "ignorant." (Idem.) Thus, a translation cannot always be
> > based on etymology, but has to be based on usage and context as well. If
> > that's true of translation, it goes double for interpretation (e.g.,
location or
> > identification)
> > >
> > > So the literal or root meaning cannot in itself be used as a geographic
> > indicator. This is shown by Numbers 33:10, where the term "Red Sea" (yam
> > suf) has reference to the eastern Red Sea, the salt-water Gulf of Aqaba. It
> > does not refer to a fresh-water lake of reeds. In 1 Kings 9:26, Ezion Geber
> > is located on the shore of the eastern Red Sea ("yam suf") bordering the
> > land of Edom, again the Gulf of Aqaba, not a fresh-water marsh. (See also,
> > Jer. 49:21.)
> > >
> > > With respect to the Red Sea of the Israelite crossing, the Septuagint
> > translates the term "yam suf" as "Red Sea" (eruthra thalasse). This is not
so
> > much a literal translation of "yam suf" as it is an identification of it
> > with the western Red Sea. Thus, the Jews of the 3rd to the 1st century BC
> > understood "yam suf" as referring to the traditional Red Sea (Gulf of Suez).
> > Note that "eruthra thalassa" is not a reference to reed-filled lake marshes
> > since eruthra means "red" not "reeds."
> > >
> > > The New Testament writers also ascribed the Israelite crossing to the
> > western Red Sea (Acts 7:36, Hebrews 11:29). Here they also used eruthra
> > thalassa (red sea) to translate the Hebrew yam suf (sea of reeds). The
authority
> > of the New Testament seems decisive to me.
> > >
> > > I think the reason translators want to translate "yam suf" as referring
> > to the northern marshes above the Gulf of Suez is simply because they are
> > attempting to downplay the miraculous and provide a naturalistic explanation
> > for the crossing.
> > >
> > > I don't think Christians have this option if they really believe in the
> > biblical philosophy of history vis-Ã -vis a naturalistic, uniformitarian
> > philosophy of history.
> > >
> > > (See for discussion, James K. Hoffmeier, *Israel in Egypt*, 1996, pp.
> > 199ff; Nahum M. Sarna, *Exploring Exodus*, 1986, pp. 106ff; Colin J.
> > Humphreys, *The Miracles of Exodus*, 2003, pp. 172ff; .)
> > >
> > > For New Courville, a crossing at the Gulf of Suez is consistent with the
> > MB1 Exodus theory as MB1 indicia have been found on both sides of the
> > western Red Sea. As we said in the essay "Crossing the Red Sea," 2007:
> > >
> > > Begin-----
> > >
> > > Gebel Atika (or Ataqah) is on the west side of the Gulf of Suez, about
> > 10 miles or so below the town of Suez, which is on the northern tip of the
> > Gulf of Suez. Atika faces somewhat laterally the site of Ayun Musa on the
> > eastern side of the Gulf (about 13 miles across the Gulf). It is possible
> > that these sites are the approximate stations where the crossing of the Red
> > Sea took place, between Atika and Ayun Musa. If the MB1 people are the
> > Israelites, and we find MB1 on both sides of the Gulf of Suez, this bears a
> > striking resemblance to the history recorded in Exodus, where the Israelites
> > were in fact on both sides of the Red Sea."
> > >
> > > . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> > >
> > > Here we wish to discuss in detail the archaeology of the Middle Bronze 1
> > settlements across the Negev and northern Sinai. In terms of both Classic
> > and New Courville, the MB1 people are the Israelites, so it is not
> > surprising that the MB1 distribution in the Kadesh-barnea region would seem
to
> > track well with the history of the Israelites. In a previous chapter, it was
> > pointed out that the MB1 distribution is on both sides of the Red Sea (Gulf
> > of Suez), so that there is a significant correlation with the history of the
> > Israelites at the time of the Exodus. To cite Rothenberg again:
> > >
> > > "The area of distribution of the occupation wave of Early Bronze Age IV
> > comprises the border region of the Negev all the way down to the Red
Sea…
> > .Considerable remains of that period were, astonishingly, found also on the
> > Mittla and Giddi Passes, as far as the banks of the Suez Canal between Port
> > Taufiq [at the eastern tip of the Gulf of Suez] and the Small Bitter Lake
> > [north of the Gulf]â€"and across the Suez Canal to Gebel Atika in Lower
> > Egypt." (Sinai, p. 121.)
> > >
> > > The site of Gebel Atika is on the western side of the Gulf of Suez, in
> > Lower Egypt proper, while all other EB4 (i.e., MB1) sites are on the eastern
> > side of the Gulf of Suez, or up around the Bitter Lakes area. This matches
> > what the Bible says, in that the Israelites turned away from the
> > Wilderness and went back over to the western side of the Red Sea (thus
allowing the
> > Exodus pharaoh to catch them with their backs against the sea). While we
> > cannot prove on the basis of the MB1 distribution that the Israelites
crossed
> > the Red Sea by miraculous intervention, the situation on the ground is at
> > least consistent with the biblical narrative, and certainly calls for an
> > intensive archaeological research program in the area.
> > >
> > > End-------
> > >
> > > _http://vernerable.
<http://vernerable.http:/verhttp:/vernerablhttp:/vehttp:/verne_>
http://verhttp://vernerablhttp://vehttp://verne_
> > (http://vernerable.
<http://vernerable.wordpress.com/archaeology/crossing-the-red-sea/>
wordpress.com/archaeology/crossing-the-red-sea/)
> > >
> > >
> > > Vern
> > >
> >
>

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/04/100406133712.htm

Do you mean actual falling levels, Ron? Where does the seawater go then? Why is
Holland having trouble with rising water? Is the water actually rising, or is
the country subsiding?

The Dead Sea (not a sea but a lake) levels are falling partly through
evaporation and partly because the Jordan has been largely diverted upstream for
water to Israel.

The Red Sea is an ocean and is therefore subject to sea levels. Does anyone know
anything re sea-levels changing over time (other than recently with talk of
melting ice-caps etc)?

Deb

--- In ancient_chronology@yahoogroups.com, Opuslola@... wrote:
>
>
> Dear all,
>
> Cannot falling water levels be considered?  As far as I know, the Netherlands/
Holland, etc., have been fighting "rising water levels" for centuries!  And,
this is supposedly land that was "depressed" by great Ice Sheets!  And, as such,
should by nature, be "rising!", much like the lands in N. America and Canada,
which have supposedly been rebounding since the retreat of the Ice Sheets!
>
> Please take the time to investigate the water level of the Dead Sea, as
science has studied it for many years?
>
> Regards,
>
> Ron
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: debhurn <debhurn@...>
> To: ancient_chronology@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:42 am
> Subject: [ancient_chronology] Re: Red Sea or Marshes of Reeds?
>
>
>
>
> Thanks Bruce. Very interesting and right on target for the section I am
currently re-working. I had already concluded that the isthmus levels must have
risen in historical times, and particularly in the south, consistent with the
increasing elevations from north to south in the Sinai and on the west side of
the Gulf.
>
> I also agree that the isthmus at the time of the Exodus was probably under
quite a lot more water throughout than it is now. I am looking for a lost
reference that says that the lakes Menzaleh and Ballah in the north of the
isthmus were once joined together and subject to inflow from the Mediterranean
Sea. Anyone know?
>
> At that time, dry passage was limited to the strips of high ground through El
Gisr (just north of Lake Timsah) and the Serapeum area (just south of Lake
Timsah). There is a good cross section of the entire length of the isthmus in
Menashe Har-El's book, Sinai Journeys. It also shows a third rise through the
Shalluf, but that is in the south (just north of Suez) and this is the section
that I think was probably lower then, so that the Gulf was (seasonally?)
extended through a natural channel in the Shalluf to include the Bitter Lakes.
>
> Interesting about the pole shifts theory, Bruce, I will check it out.
>
> Yes, my book is written with Karkom as Sinai...with that key in the lock, all
the routes and sites come tumbling out :-)
>
> Deb
>
> --- In ancient_chronology@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Killian" <bakillian@> wrote:
> >
> > Deb,
> >
> > At the time of the Exodus at the end of the sixth dynasty, the topography of
the area of the Red/Reed sea crossing was different, it has changed by the land
level rising. At the time of the Exodus the only way to travel from Egypt to
Canaan was to travel on the narrow spit sand that had spanned the gap between
these continents, it was called the way of the sea. The sea of reeds was the
most northerly portion of the Gulf of Suez and was fed by one of the
distributaries or branches in the Nile delta so it was fresher than today. The
level of the land has risen so previously there is a much smaller gap between
the Gulf of Suez and the Mediterranean Sea. The reason the land is higher today
is because of two pole shifts the one in the days of Joshua and the one in the
days of Hezekiah. http://www.scripturescholar.com/JoshuasLongDay.htm. For my
dating and understanding of the Exodus see
http://www.scripturescholar.com/BibleArchaeology.htm I am sure the site of Sinai
is Har Karkom and is documented by Emmanuel Anati. It dates to the proper time
period. The Traditional site of Mt. Sinai does not have the space for 2 million
people to camp around it. The site in Saudi Arabia is way too far to get there
in the allotted time and the Gulf of Aqaba is too far to be reached in three
days from the Nile delta.
> >
> >
> >
> > May God multiply love, grace and peace to you,
> >
> > Bruce
> >
> > _____
> >
> > From: ancient_chronology@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:ancient_chronology@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of debhurn
> > Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 8:13 PM
> > To: ancient_chronology@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [ancient_chronology] Re: Red Sea or Marshes of Reeds?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > http://www.testimon
<http://www.testimony-magazine.org/back/nov2002/hurn.pdf>
y-magazine.org/back/nov2002/hurn.pdf
> >
> > This is a piece on the Red/Reed Sea debate that I have pre-published from my
upcoming book on the Exodus Routes and Sites. As the book is still pending, I
will be glad of any comments, so this section may be adjusted if necessary.
> >
> > Thanks, Deb
> >
> > --- In ancient_chronology@ <mailto:ancient_chronology%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com, Infowolf1@ wrote:
> > >
> > > if you got one sea that sprawls in a fork or something, then
> > > you are going to have more than one possible location.
> > >
> > > Mary Christine
> > >
> > >
> > > In a message dated 2/16/2010 2:07:45 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
> > > zoe_lithoi@ writes:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Vern et.al.
> > >
> > > I'm still fuzzy on why you would think Scripture refers to 2 different
> > > places called the "Red Sea". Anyways....
> > >
> > > Have you looked into the location of Eloth (also called Elath) and
> > > Eziongeber, two cities near each other, and which, according to the
following
> > > verses, are located on or near the Red Sea?
> > >
> > > 1Ki 9:26 And king Solomon made a navy of ships in Eziongeber, which [is]
> > > beside Eloth, on the shore of the Red sea, in the land of Edom.
> > >
> > > Deu 2:1 ¶ Then we turned, and took our journey into the wilderness
by the
> > > way of the Red sea, as the LORD spake unto me: and we compassed mount Seir
> > > many days.
> > > Deu 2:8 And when we passed by from our brethren the children of Esau,
> > > which dwelt in Seir, through the way of the plain from Elath, and from
> > > Eziongaber, we turned and passed by the way of the wilderness of Moab.
> > >
> > > Toby
> > >
> > > --- In _ancient_chronology@ancient_chroanc_
> > > (mailto:ancient_chronology@ <mailto:ancient_chronology%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com) , "verncrisler" <vcrisler3@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > --- In _ancient_chronology@ancient_chroanc_
> > > (mailto:ancient_chronology@ <mailto:ancient_chronology%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com) , Ian Onvlee <sambacats@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Vern,
> > > > >
> > > > > <<The chariots of the Exodus Pharaoh were lost at the Red Sea along
> > > with the Exodus Pharaoh, so it's not likely we'll ever find them in a tomb
> > > somewhere. >>
> > > > >
> > > > > According to the Bible they were lost at the Yam Suf ('Sea of reeds'),
> > > wherever that may be. It doesn't say�'‚ the Red Sea, but who
knows.�'‚
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Depending on context, the Bible uses the term "Red Sea" (yam suf) to
> > > refer either to the western Red Sea (bordering Egypt, i.e., the Gulf of
Suez),
> > > or to the eastern Red Sea (in the land of Edom, i.e., the Gulf of Aqaba).
> > > >
> > > > In some cases, Hebrew "suf" refers to "reeds" as in Exodus 2:3ff., where
> > > the mother of Moses placed the ark in the reeds (suf) and where the
> > > daughter of Pharaoh found Moses. Literally, the biblical term "yam suf"
means
> > > "sea of reeds," but that is an etymological translation, not an
identification
> > > of the body of water in question. Many believe "suf" is a loan word from
> > > Egyptian "twf" (meaning papyrus).
> > > >
> > > > The term "suf" in "yam suf" simply refers to what may have been the
> > > ORIGIN of the name "Red Sea" not to its geographical location. Some claim
that
> > > the western Red Sea (Gulf of Suez) cannot be meant as the place of the
> > > Israelite crossing because reeds do not grow in salt water. However, this
is an
> > > illustration of what D. A. Carson called "the root fallacy":
> > > >
> > > > "One of the most enduring of errors, the root fallacy presupposes that
> > > every word actually *has* a meaning bound up with its shape or its
> > > components. In this view, meaning is determined by etymology; that is, by
the root
> > > or roots of a word." (*Exegetical Fallacies*, 1996, pp. 28ff.)
> > > >
> > > > For instance, our English word "nice" means pleasant or good, but its
> > > Latin root means "ignorant." (Idem.) Thus, a translation cannot always be
> > > based on etymology, but has to be based on usage and context as well. If
> > > that's true of translation, it goes double for interpretation (e.g.,
location or
> > > identification)
> > > >
> > > > So the literal or root meaning cannot in itself be used as a geographic
> > > indicator. This is shown by Numbers 33:10, where the term "Red Sea" (yam
> > > suf) has reference to the eastern Red Sea, the salt-water Gulf of Aqaba.
It
> > > does not refer to a fresh-water lake of reeds. In 1 Kings 9:26, Ezion
Geber
> > > is located on the shore of the eastern Red Sea ("yam suf") bordering the
> > > land of Edom, again the Gulf of Aqaba, not a fresh-water marsh. (See also,
> > > Jer. 49:21.)
> > > >
> > > > With respect to the Red Sea of the Israelite crossing, the Septuagint
> > > translates the term "yam suf" as "Red Sea" (eruthra thalasse). This is not
so
> > > much a literal translation of "yam suf" as it is an identification of it
> > > with the western Red Sea. Thus, the Jews of the 3rd to the 1st century BC
> > > understood "yam suf" as referring to the traditional Red Sea (Gulf of
Suez).
> > > Note that "eruthra thalassa" is not a reference to reed-filled lake
marshes
> > > since eruthra means "red" not "reeds."
> > > >
> > > > The New Testament writers also ascribed the Israelite crossing to the
> > > western Red Sea (Acts 7:36, Hebrews 11:29). Here they also used eruthra
> > > thalassa (red sea) to translate the Hebrew yam suf (sea of reeds). The
authority
> > > of the New Testament seems decisive to me.
> > > >
> > > > I think the reason translators want to translate "yam suf" as referring
> > > to the northern marshes above the Gulf of Suez is simply because they are
> > > attempting to downplay the miraculous and provide a naturalistic
explanation
> > > for the crossing.
> > > >
> > > > I don't think Christians have this option if they really believe in the
> > > biblical philosophy of history vis-�' -vis a naturalistic,
uniformitarian
> > > philosophy of history.
> > > >
> > > > (See for discussion, James K. Hoffmeier, *Israel in Egypt*, 1996, pp.
> > > 199ff; Nahum M. Sarna, *Exploring Exodus*, 1986, pp. 106ff; Colin J.
> > > Humphreys, *The Miracles of Exodus*, 2003, pp. 172ff; .)
> > > >
> > > > For New Courville, a crossing at the Gulf of Suez is consistent with the
> > > MB1 Exodus theory as MB1 indicia have been found on both sides of the
> > > western Red Sea. As we said in the essay "Crossing the Red Sea," 2007:
> > > >
> > > > Begin-----
> > > >
> > > > Gebel Atika (or Ataqah) is on the west side of the Gulf of Suez, about
> > > 10 miles or so below the town of Suez, which is on the northern tip of the
> > > Gulf of Suez. Atika faces somewhat laterally the site of Ayun Musa on the
> > > eastern side of the Gulf (about 13 miles across the Gulf). It is possible
> > > that these sites are the approximate stations where the crossing of the
Red
> > > Sea took place, between Atika and Ayun Musa. If the MB1 people are the
> > > Israelites, and we find MB1 on both sides of the Gulf of Suez, this bears
a
> > > striking resemblance to the history recorded in Exodus, where the
Israelites
> > > were in fact on both sides of the Red Sea."
> > > >
> > > > . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> > > >
> > > > Here we wish to discuss in detail the archaeology of the Middle Bronze 1
> > > settlements across the Negev and northern Sinai. In terms of both Classic
> > > and New Courville, the MB1 people are the Israelites, so it is not
> > > surprising that the MB1 distribution in the Kadesh-barnea region would
seem to
> > > track well with the history of the Israelites. In a previous chapter, it
was
> > > pointed out that the MB1 distribution is on both sides of the Red Sea
(Gulf
> > > of Suez), so that there is a significant correlation with the history of
the
> > > Israelites at the time of the Exodus. To cite Rothenberg again:
> > > >
> > > > "The area of distribution of the occupation wave of Early Bronze Age IV
> > > comprises the border region of the Negev all the way down to the Red
Sea…
> > > .Considerable remains of that period were, astonishingly, found also on
the
> > > Mittla and Giddi Passes, as far as the banks of the Suez Canal between
Port
> > > Taufiq [at the eastern tip of the Gulf of Suez] and the Small Bitter Lake
> > > [north of the Gulf]â€"and across the Suez Canal to Gebel Atika in
Lower
> > > Egypt." (Sinai, p. 121.)
> > > >
> > > > The site of Gebel Atika is on the western side of the Gulf of Suez, in
> > > Lower Egypt proper, while all other EB4 (i.e., MB1) sites are on the
eastern
> > > side of the Gulf of Suez, or up around the Bitter Lakes area. This matches
> > > what the Bible says, in that the Israelites turned away from the
> > > Wilderness and went back over to the western side of the Red Sea (thus
allowing the
> > > Exodus pharaoh to catch them with their backs against the sea). While we
> > > cannot prove on the basis of the MB1 distribution that the Israelites
crossed
> > > the Red Sea by miraculous intervention, the situation on the ground is at
> > > least consistent with the biblical narrative, and certainly calls for an
> > > intensive archaeological research program in the area.
> > > >
> > > > End-------
> > > >
> > > > _http://vernerable.
<http://vernerable.http:/verhttp:/vernerablhttp:/vehttp:/verne_>
http://verhttp://vernerablhttp://vehttp://verne_
> > > (http://vernerable.
<http://vernerable.wordpress.com/archaeology/crossing-the-red-sea/>
wordpress.com/archaeology/crossing-the-red-sea/)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Vern
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Greetings,

There seems to be some nice correlations between this K8538 Assyrian Planisphere
and the Mul Apin series of tablets in regards to some dating and timing. First
the dating:

Andis Kaulins, a well-published author and expert on the Mul Apin Cuniform clay
tablets states:

"Hunger and Pingree themselves note that it was van der Waarden who first
proposed the theory that the MUL.APIN applied to a time period circa 1000 BC
(which Hunger and Pingree accept, contrary to Papke), but then, based on Papke's
observations and some new one's of his own, van der Waarden CHANGED his mind to
a date of 2340 BC and accepted Papke's conclusions later (1984)."

http://lexiline.blogspot.com/2008/03/age-of-mulapin-according-to-andis.html

So basically Kaulins and Warner believe the Mul Apin tablets were written in
2340bc +/-20 years (albeit some things were added afterwards...). I believe the
planisphere was written in 2361bc, based on the location of certain planets in
certain constellations while the path of the sun was interecting a certain
constellation at a certain angle. My 2361bc date appears as #5 on Bond and
Hempsells list of possible dates. This time frame also corresponds fairly nicely
to Dodwell's estimate of the flood as 2345bc using his earth-tilt data.

Another correlation has to do with time. Both the planisphere and the "mul apin"
tablets refer to the time of the rising of the sun in terms of the Sumerian time
units called US. They divided up each day into 12 Beru (we use 24 hours), so 1
Beru is about 2 hours. Then they devide each Beru into 30 US (we divide each
hour into 60 minutes). So 1 Assyrian day would be: 12 Beru/day * 30 US/Beru =
360 US/day.

This means, to me, that the Assyrians had a means to measure accurately down to
1US. How did they do it?

Well, I'm not sure that it really is as important as verifying that they they
could. In the mul apin, Tablet Nr.86378, we see that the stars rise 'four
minutes earlier daily'. See "49." and "50." at the following website:
http://www.lexiline.com/lexiline/lexi178.htm

Obviously '4 minutes' is an interpretation of cuneiform. Let's see how many
minutes are in 1US.

We have 24hours/day * 60minutes/hour = 1440 minutes/day

How many minutes in a US?

1440 minutes/day / 360US/day = 4 minutes/US

In other words,   1 US = 4 minutes

So when the interpretaion of the Mul Apin says that the stars rise 'four minutes
earlier daily', the cuneiform obviously stated this as 1 US.

Now, we don't know for sure what method the Assyrians used to make this time
measurement, but there is alot of information about Water Clocks out there on
the net. How accurate was this 1US measurement?

One website says this:

"While primitive Clepsydras were often much more accurate than watching the sun,
they were still not accurate to today's standards, the best being accurate to
within 15 minutes per day: impressive for 5000 years ago, but not acceptable
today."
---http://everything2.com/user/Lifix/writeups/Clepsydra

Well,
15minutes of accuracy in 1 day
360US in 1 day

So, 15 minutes of accuracy/day * 1day/360us =
1 minute of accuracy per 24 US.
i.e. 60 seconds of accuracy per 24US
i.e. 2.5 seconds per 1us.

The Assyrians could measure 1US (=4minutes) within 2.5 seconds using a water
clock. Let's put this in perspective. 4 minutes is 240seconds.

2.5/240 * 100 * 100% = 1.04%

In other words, the Assyrians could measure time to 1% accuracy with a water
clock.

I've included, below my signature, the timing information on the planisphere
which tells, in US units the time from sunset the meteors arrived, and the time
from the meteor arrival to sunrise. It shows that the night-time lasted 142.3us
* 4minutes/us = 569.2minutes.

So, using the 1% accuracy, they could be off 5.7 minutes

Not a big deal.

Toby



--- In ancient_chronology@yahoogroups.com, "Toby" <zoe_lithoi@...> wrote:
>
> Greetings Ian,
>
> You wrote:
> > Question: Where does it state the hours and where the day of the month, and
how do those words read?
>
> In the Cancer sector, see:
>
> http://infinitybiblecode.zoomshare.com/files/Ancient_Planisphere_K8538.html
>
> There are 2 cuneiform phrases. One is interpreted as 24 minutes to sun rise
(this phrase is actually on 2 lines).   The other Phrase is interpreted as 20
days 9 hours and 29 minutes.
>
> Let's look at the first line, using Boerger numbers:
>
> B318 B318 "the rising sun".
>
> The line beneath it is
>
> B318 B125 which is interpretted as "the rising sun 6us" which means the rising
sun in 24minutes. The "us" are Sumerian Units of time relating to the 'arc'....
something about you how there are 360 degrees and these are divided up into
hours and minutes. Well, the Sumerian 'us' units are such that 6us equals about
24 minutes.
>
> Now the second line, using the Boerger numbers:
>
> B471 B570 B471 B570  B471 %%%
>
> Which is interpreted as:
> 20 120 20 2 20 %%%
>
> where the "20 %%%" is taken as 20/60th
> and the whole thing is:
>
> 20 days 142 and 20/60th (US)
> = 20 days and 142.3US
>
> where US are Assyrian Units of time such that 6us equals 24 minutes
>
> so 142.3us * 24minutes/6us = 569.2minutes
>
> Note that 9 hours = 540 minutes so
>
> 569.2minutes - 540 minutes = 29.2minutes
>
> So 142.3us = 9 hours and 29.2minutes
>
> So, what we have, is the 20th day of the month. 9 hours and 29 minutes from
Sunset and 24 minutes to sunrise. The total length of the night, then would be
9hour + 29 minutes + 24 minuts = 9 hours + 53 minutes. Bond and Hempsell use
this info to calculate the approiximate location of the observer.
>
> BTW, the use of the phrase 'rising sun' here in the cancer sector to locate
the Sun in the cancer sector at sunrise on the 20th day of the month. So,
whatever theories you come up with, should reflect this celestial event when you
use your planetarium software to confirm your theories.
>
> There's much more to say on the cancer sector --- including the 2 planets,
Mount Ararat, the LEO constellation, the 4 moving asteroids/meteors, and the
water canopy being dissolved into a strange mat as the asteroids pass though it.
>
> Toby

Greetings,

The Assyrians,Akkadians,Sumerians,Egyptians, and others all used water clocks to
measure time. I ran across one web article which was fascinating. It quoted from
a cuneiform text which described how to use a water clock. Then, it goes through
and tells you the mathematich and how the numbers were arrived at. Here is a
snippet..... Toby

(thing) by Gone Jackal  Thu Jul 04 2002 at 12:01:54
http://everything2.com/title/A+Babylonian+water+clock

"....An Old Babylonian text, Akkadian with many Sumerian logograms, excerpted
from a collection of mathematical school exercises, now kept in the British
Museum:

GISHDIB.DIB ip-te-e-ma 1/2 S�LA GISHDIB.DIB
IGI-4-G�L 10 SHU.SI qa a-na i-si-iq-tim
u-ul i-sa-an-ni-iq q�-q�-rum UGU q�-q�-rum
en-nam SUKUD; ZA-E 1,40 SUKUD GISHDIB.DIB du8-a
36 ta-mar 36 a-na 30 i-shi 18 ta-mar.
18 a-na 2/30 i-shi 45 ta-mar KI UGU KI DIRI
ki-a-am ne-p�-shum

And, the (literal) translation:

A water clock is opened. 1/2 Litre (of water) is in the water clock.
4 parts of 10 fingers (of water), measured with respect to the litre, before the
measuring mark,
are missing. Measured surface to surface,
what is the height? You taker the reciprocal of the height of the water clock,
1,40.
You get 0,36. Multiply 0,36 by 0,30. You get 0,18.
You multiply 0,18 by 2,30. You get 0,45, surface to surface.
That's the way you do it."

<a bund of stuff snipped out>

".... He then multiplied this result by i, 2;30, and got the answer 0,45."