Scientists study Michigan land bridge
Research is the subject of a documentary about the ancient Great Lakes
The Associated Press
Updated: 12:11 p.m. CT Dec 19, 2006

PONTIAC, Mich. - Scientists hope to learn more about what the Great
Lakes' shorelines looked like about 10,000 years ago. They explored a
limestone land bridge that went from Alpena to Goderich, Ontario — a
distance of about 125 miles — and an underwater forest of petrified
trees in Lake Huron.

The 2006 research, in which more than 500 dives were made, is the
subject of a documentary film, "Great Lakes, Ancient Shores,
Sinkholes." It premiered recently at the Cranbrook Institute of Arts
in Bloomfield Hills, The Oakland Press reported in a story published
Monday.

Another study is planned for 2007 and should result in a second film,
"Great Lakes, Ancient Shores," said Luke Clyburn, lieutenant commander
of the Great Lakes Division of the U.S. Naval Sea Cadet Corps and a
Great Lakes ship captain.

"What we are learning about the Great Lakes of several thousand years
ago may change the way we think of this area," Clyburn said.

Clyburn and other scientists have been filming in the Great Lakes for
at least 25 years.

There is a petrified forest in 40 feet of water in Lake Huron about
two miles offshore from Lexington, he said. Some of the trees have
been carbon-dated to indicate they are 6,980 years old.

The Straits of Mackinac, a passage between lakes Michigan and Huron,
have been spanned by the Mackinac Bridge since the mid-1950s but
didn't exist several thousand years ago, Clyburn said.

"Lake Michigan was much higher than Lake Huron, and the two did not
join as they do today at the straits," he said. But water from Lake
Michigan seeped underground toward Lake Huron and the two bodies of
water eventually became connected.

Clyburn's current film focuses on a sinkhole in Lake Huron about two
miles from Alpena near Middle Island. In prehistoric times, the
sinkholes were on dry land. Native Americans lived near these
sinkholes because they provided water, which attracted game, he said.
© 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may
not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16280930/

Stan and all,

Just home for the holidays from Madison the evening your note posted
about the possible Fred Rydholm teleconference talk at the January
Ancient Earthworks Society meeting in Madison. I will be in Madison
doing clinicals most of January, yet that Thursday evening is free
and I would enjoy attending the January meeting.

Tonight I phoned one of the Ancient Earthworks Society founders,
retired Prof. James Scherz who lives part of the time here in Wausau
(also, Madison and Sauk City). He hadn't heard yet of the upcoming
teleconference, told me to check further for him. We will meet
downtown tomorrow for lunch and use my cell phone to call Fred.

When Jim visited the Rydholms in Marquette last month, Fred gave him
a copy of his new book to pass on to me. I need to personally
thank him for it. The book is so popular Fred is scheduled to give a
considerable number of talks as well as media programs since its
release. The 2006 book by C. Fred Rydholm is titled: "MICHIGAN COPPER-
The Untold Story-A History of Discovery"

I pulled up the Ancient Earthworks Society web page this evening and
do not see anything about the AES January meeting:

http://www.madison.com/communities/aes/index.php

If you have another AES web site as well as further information on an
alternate/or February speaker, please pass that along also.

Most appreciative of your recent postings, Stan. Hopefully will have
time to delve a bit more deeply during the two weeks of vacation from
classes and hospital clinicals.

Respectfully,
M. Susan English


--- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "minnesotastan"
<minnesotastan@...> wrote:

Fred Rydholm will be the featured speaker for the January meeting of
the Ancient Earthworks Society...

7:00 PM Thursday, January 18th, 2007
Retired Prof. FRED RYDHOLM: "The Copper Culture and Wisconsin, UP
Michigan and Great Lakes History"

You won't want to miss this exciting presentation. Fred will be coming
to us via video conferencing from a university in northern Michigan.
(Bring on the technology!) The video is live from both ends so there
will be interaction and the ability to ask questions. The last time
Fred spoke to AES we went until 10 PM and people said they could have
stayed all night listening to Fred!

In the event Fred Rydholm is not able to present on January 18th, Dr.
Gary Maier has graciously agreed to be our backup speaker. If Fred is
able to present in January, Gary will present at our February meeting.
An announcement will go out closer to the meeting with final details.

We will be meeting at the UW Health Science Learning Center, 750
Highland Avenue, Madison, room 1309, on the first floor. This room is
right next to the entrance off the small (permit at all times) parking
lot right off the building, in case you are dropping someone off. We
hope to meet in this room for the next few months. Park free after
4:30 in nearby Lot 76, or right next to the HSLC in the regular
hospital ramp for $1 an hour.

Stan & Ancient Waterways correspondents,

AES founder, retired UW prof. James Scherz, another friend Laurie,
and I met this afternoon, discussed Ed Grondine's "Man & Impact on
the Americas". Jim purchased five copies of Ed's book and included
exerpts into his own "working paper". Ed was a speaker at the
October, 2006 Ancient American Artifact Preservation Foundation
conference in Big Bay, Michigan.

We also viewed Robert Starling's taster DVD which he presented at the
AAAPF conference; Starling is looking for sponsors, hopes soon to
begin filming: "They All Discovered America".

We viewed Al Gore's "An Inconvenient Truth", then phoned the
Rydholms in Marquette who were planning on watching the Al Gore video
this very evening.  The Rydholms have taken trips to the Arctic
circle, are also very actively involved in mining issues impacting
the environment around their Lake Superior house and 'camp'.

Fred said he was looking forward to speaking via teleconference next
month at the Ancient Earthworks Society meeting on the UW Madison
campus.  He was unaware of the date and time, said a Matt Morrison
from SuperiorHearlands.com is handling the arrangments. From the web
site is information for contacting Mr. Morrison:

matt.morrison@...
393 West Crescent Street, Marquette, MI 49855
Phone: (906)226-9849

Fred said he would appreciate it if I would copy and paste your note
from the Ancient Waterways Society site.  I asked him to let either
of us know if there will be changes in the AES schedule.

I'd mentioned Fred's book in a post yesterday to this Ancient
Waterways Society; books and CD's can be purchased at superior
heartlands web site: http://superiorheartland.com/

Jim Scherz will be working an hour or two south of Madison January
18th, plans on driving up for the meeting.  Following a night shift
at a Madison hospital, I will stick around that evening to attend the
meeting before returning to Central Wisconsin. Hopefully the group
will meet two or three hours earlier for dinner (and let us out-
of=towners know ahead of time).

I read your post to Jim Scherz, Stan. He said to mention to all of
you that Gary Maier is an exceptional speaker and not one to miss,
either---whenever it is he will be scheduled to speak at the AES
meeting.

Yours truly,
M. Susan English
http://hometown.aol.com/suzenglish/myhomepage/profile.html
___________________________________________________
--- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan English"
<beldingenglish@...> wrote:
>
> Stan and all,
>
> Just home for the holidays from Madison the evening your note
posted
> about the possible Fred Rydholm teleconference talk at the January
> Ancient Earthworks Society meeting in Madison. I will be in Madison
> doing clinicals most of January, yet that Thursday evening is free
> and I would enjoy attending the January meeting.
>
> Tonight I phoned one of the Ancient Earthworks Society founders,
> retired Prof. James Scherz who lives part of the time here in
Wausau
> (also, Madison and Sauk City). He hadn't heard yet of the upcoming
> teleconference, told me to check further for him. We will meet
> downtown tomorrow for lunch and use my cell phone to call Fred.
>
> When Jim visited the Rydholms in Marquette last month, Fred gave
him
> a copy of his new book to pass on to me. I need to personally
> thank him for it. The book is so popular Fred is scheduled to give
a
> considerable number of talks as well as media programs since its
> release. The 2006 book by C. Fred Rydholm is titled: "MICHIGAN
COPPER-
> The Untold Story-A History of Discovery"
>
> I pulled up the Ancient Earthworks Society web page this evening
and
> do not see anything about the AES January meeting:
>
> http://www.madison.com/communities/aes/index.php
>
> If you have another AES web site as well as further information on
an
> alternate/or February speaker, please pass that along also.
>
> Most appreciative of your recent postings, Stan. Hopefully will
have
> time to delve a bit more deeply during the two weeks of vacation
from
> classes and hospital clinicals.
>
> Respectfully,
> M. Susan English
>
>
> --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "minnesotastan"
> <minnesotastan@> wrote:
>
> Fred Rydholm will be the featured speaker for the January meeting of
> the Ancient Earthworks Society...
>
> 7:00 PM Thursday, January 18th, 2007
> Retired Prof. FRED RYDHOLM: "The Copper Culture and Wisconsin, UP
> Michigan and Great Lakes History"
>
> You won't want to miss this exciting presentation. Fred will be
coming
> to us via video conferencing from a university in northern Michigan.
> (Bring on the technology!) The video is live from both ends so there
> will be interaction and the ability to ask questions. The last time
> Fred spoke to AES we went until 10 PM and people said they could
have
> stayed all night listening to Fred!
>
> In the event Fred Rydholm is not able to present on January 18th,
Dr.
> Gary Maier has graciously agreed to be our backup speaker. If Fred
is
> able to present in January, Gary will present at our February
meeting.
> An announcement will go out closer to the meeting with final
details.
>
> We will be meeting at the UW Health Science Learning Center, 750
> Highland Avenue, Madison, room 1309, on the first floor. This room
is
> right next to the entrance off the small (permit at all times)
parking
> lot right off the building, in case you are dropping someone off. We
> hope to meet in this room for the next few months. Park free after
> 4:30 in nearby Lot 76, or right next to the HSLC in the regular
> hospital ramp for $1 an hour.
>

Stan, thank you for sending the recent MSNBC article, "Scientists
study Michigan land bridge".  The 2006 and upcoming 2007 documentary
on "Great Lakes, Ancient Shores" are films I truly don't want to
miss.  If any of you come across dates/times/places for either of
these, please post to this site or to a personal email.

That area of research, Stan, may also interrelate to a link I sent
today in regarad to work by Canadian and Michigan geologists on the
continuing discoveries of whale bones found around Lake Michigan.

MSE
http://hometown.aol.com/suzenglish/myhomepage/profile.html

--- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "minnesotastan"
<minnesotastan@...> wrote:

Scientists study Michigan land bridge
Research is the subject of a documentary about the ancient Great
Lakes The Associated Press
Updated: 12:11 p.m. CT Dec 19, 2006

PONTIAC, Mich. - Scientists hope to learn more about what the Great
Lakes' shorelines looked like about 10,000 years ago. They explored a
limestone land bridge that went from Alpena to Goderich, Ontario — a
distance of about 125 miles — and an underwater forest of petrified
trees in Lake Huron.

The 2006 research, in which more than 500 dives were made, is the
subject of a documentary film, "Great Lakes, Ancient Shores,
Sinkholes." It premiered recently at the Cranbrook Institute of Arts
in Bloomfield Hills, The Oakland Press reported in a story published
Monday.

Another study is planned for 2007 and should result in a second
film, "Great Lakes, Ancient Shores," said Luke Clyburn, lieutenant
commander of the Great Lakes Division of the U.S. Naval Sea Cadet
Corps and a Great Lakes ship captain.

"What we are learning about the Great Lakes of several thousand years
ago may change the way we think of this area," Clyburn said.

Clyburn and other scientists have been filming in the Great Lakes for
at least 25 years.

There is a petrified forest in 40 feet of water in Lake Huron about
two miles offshore from Lexington, he said. Some of the trees have
been carbon-dated to indicate they are 6,980 years old.

The Straits of Mackinac, a passage between lakes Michigan and Huron,
have been spanned by the Mackinac Bridge since the mid-1950s but
didn't exist several thousand years ago, Clyburn said.

"Lake Michigan was much higher than Lake Huron, and the two did not
join as they do today at the straits," he said. But water from Lake
Michigan seeped underground toward Lake Huron and the two bodies of
water eventually became connected.

Clyburn's current film focuses on a sinkhole in Lake Huron about two
miles from Alpena near Middle Island. In prehistoric times, the
sinkholes were on dry land. Native Americans lived near these
sinkholes because they provided water, which attracted game, he
said.  © 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This
material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16280930/

Hi Susan,Stan and other members
       My name is Steve and I am from west central minnesota. I do
ancient viking research and have found an interesting map that members
may not have. There are a set of 48 maps that are the original land
survey from the mid 1800,s. These maps cover an area from the dakota
minnesota border, east thru wisconsin and Michigan. They are very
detailed and the whole set is over $200. Each map is 2x3 and is $5 and
can be ordered separately. These maps are copywrited and so can be
only purchased from the Trygg Land Office in Ely minnesota...

http://www.trygglandoffice.com/maps.html

These maps have been a great help in  my research. They show clearly
the higher water marks that the first settlers were encountering and
the waterways that were once the highways to the interior.

   In the last year I have began viewing the glass not as half full or
half empty but as FULL and the midwest covered by water and large
shallow inland seas. I started with an all blue picture and then
started dropping the waters and mapping the islands as they began to
emerge. Soon I could then see the remains of these inland seas and
ancient waterways on the trygg land maps.

   On the (KRS) kensington runestone, the last line says, "from this
island,year 1362"..... ISLAND???.Where was the water???

I have tried this last year to picture the more extreme high waters
that would correspond with the different dates. Norse explorers of
1362, viking explorers of a 1000 years ago and then even more ancients
of 2-5 thousand years ago.

In july I found a new higher water mark and have begun mapping these
beaches. I am working on these maps this winter and mapping these
islands as the ancients would have found them.

Thanks and happy hunting in the new year.

STEVE

Welcome Steve,

Thank you for coming on board to our site...from your ancient
waterway in W. Minnesota or coastal Santa Cruz, California, to each
of ours.

Mutual friend Marion Dahm spoke frequently and fondly of you,
Steve, was enthusiastic about the work you were doing in regard to
the Kensington Runestone, ancient viking seafarer exploration of
North America, and especially mooring stones. Days prior to Marion's
untimely death, I'd spent over an hour on the phone reading to him,
verbatum, letters you and others had posted to the PreColumbian
Inscriptions and Ohio Rock "thor" group message boards.  Marion
remarked that you were a real sleuth and no doubt possessed the same
kind of passion and energy for the kind of work that both of you
were doing. He added, that you would need it.  I, too, miss him very
much. See Posts #30, 31, & 35 to this group, particularly the fine
eulogy about Marion from Ancient Waterways Society member Pam Giese
that she wrote to the "thor group" and also included in a post to
this group.

Surveyor James Scherz, also a longtime friend of Marion, had been
planning an October, 2006 trip with Marion up to Lake Nipigon or
Nippising (cannot redcall the name of the Canadian lake) prior to the
AAAPF Conference. Jim is courting my good friend Laurie in Central
Wisconsin and spends considerable amounts of time in the Wausau area.
He stopped yesterday while I was seated reading posts.  I showed him
the Ancient Waterways Society web site and your post, which he asked
me to run a print of.  Also a couple of posts from Stan re: the AES
meeting Jan. 18th (which he plans to attend), along with the whale
bone and MSNBC article about the upcoming documentary on the Great
Lakes 10,000 years ago.

I have long been using the name "Ancient Waterways Society" based on
papers by retired UW Madison prof. James Scherz, also from
writings and talks by Fred Rydholm, author/researcher David Hoffman,
and others.  Marion Dahm also included himself as a member of
an "Ancient Waterways Society" but did not own a computer in order to
follow group posts. All three friends listed above held very close
ties with Marion Dahm, housed him when Marion asked me to transport
him through northern Wisconsin, Keweenaw Peninsula, Marquette, then
down along Lake Michigan to Door County where Marion was following up
a lead seeking his first mooring stone in that area.

In your post, Steve, did you indicate that you purchased an entire
set of the mid-1800's survey maps of Minnesota?  Dr. Scherz is
working with a survey group researching the origins of the
Mississippi River and we wondered if a single survey map can be
purchased. I want to mention to this group, by the way, that when I
first told him an Ancient Waterways Society web page had been set up,
Jim thought this site would be a good place for researchers to
display papers. He offered a full 24 page research article to us to
post to this site, which he also sells through the Ancient American
Magazine Book Club. The retired professor doesn't have an operational
computer; I don't own Microsoft Word, am using dial-up service, and
neither the computer nor myself has the sophistication to download
large files. Title page of Jim's paper reads:

"OLD WATER LEVELS AND WATERWAYS During the Ancient Copper Mining Era
(about 3000 BC to 1000 BC)"

James P. Scherz, Prof. Emeritus
Dept. of Civil and Environmental Engineering
(Surveying and Mapping Section)
University of Wisconsin
Madison, WIsconsin
July, 1999

David Hoffman,  mentioned above, emailed a day or two ago he was
having difficulty signing on as a member of this web group so that he
could write posts. His latest work on ancient seafarers into the
Great Lakes focuses on a N. Wisconsin origin of the Wisconsin River.
I emailed back to David that I believe one must first sign on as a
member of Yahoo groups, which includes obtaining a Yahoo email
address.  When I joined my first Yahoogroup (PreColumbian
Inscriptions), a post to the group from Mike White assisted me step-
by-step in joining. I have been unable to find Mike's helpful message
to that site.

Before signing off, I wish to include other web groups mentioned
in this letter.  A few of us posting here view Messages or are
members of the other specialty Yahoogroups:

PreColumbain Inscriptions (host Mike White):
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Precolumbian_Inscriptions/

The Thor (Ohio Rock) site (host William Smith):
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/thor-thehuntersohiorock/

American Runestones (recently resurrected by Steven Hilgren):
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/americanrunestones/

Ancient American Artifact Preservation Foundation (AAAPF), host Rick
Osmond, Indiana):
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/americanrunestones/

Looking forward to hearing more about your work. Also from those of
you who continue on patiently, as members, despite the sometimes
infrequency of posts.  We do hope that the letters posted here make
it worthwhile.  Any comments or ideas to improve this web page would
be welcome.

Sincerely,

M. Susan English

--- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "hilgren"
<hilgren@...> wrote:

Hi Susan,Stan and other members
       My name is Steve and I am from west central minnesota. I do
ancient viking research and have found an interesting map that members
may not have. There are a set of 48 maps that are the original land
survey from the mid 1800,s. These maps cover an area from the dakota
minnesota border, east thru wisconsin and Michigan. They are very
detailed and the whole set is over $200. Each map is 2x3 and is $5 and
can be ordered separately. These maps are copywrited and so can be
only purchased from the Trygg Land Office in Ely minnesota...

http://www.trygglandoffice.com/maps.html

These maps have been a great help in  my research. They show clearly
the higher water marks that the first settlers were encountering and
the waterways that were once the highways to the interior.

   In the last year I have began viewing the glass not as half full or
half empty but as FULL and the midwest covered by water and large
shallow inland seas. I started with an all blue picture and then
started dropping the waters and mapping the islands as they began to
emerge. Soon I could then see the remains of these inland seas and
ancient waterways on the trygg land maps.

   On the (KRS) kensington runestone, the last line says, "from this
island,year 1362"..... ISLAND???.Where was the water???

I have tried this last year to picture the more extreme high waters
that would correspond with the different dates. Norse explorers of
1362, viking explorers of a 1000 years ago and then even more ancients
of 2-5 thousand years ago.

In july I found a new higher water mark and have begun mapping these
beaches. I am working on these maps this winter and mapping these
islands as the ancients would have found them.

Thanks and happy hunting in the new year.

STEVE

Ancient Waterways Society members,

Already in the works is the 3rd Annual Ancient American Artifact
Preservation Foundation (AAAPF) Conference, scheduled October 5-7th,
2007 in Wilmington,Ohio. The official AAAPF web site's Home Page is:
http://www.aaapf.org/scripts/openExtra.asp?extra=1

The 2007 AAAPF Conference web page is:
http://www.aaapf.org/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=37
_____________________________________________________________
(Scanned, pasted from the site, but best to check page directly):

Annual International AAAPF Conference 2007 (AAAPF Conference 07)

The date and the place has been set for the 3rd annual Conference on
Ancient America. Limited to 500 Registrants
Day Tickets Must be Pre-Registered to Guarantee Your Seat:

Ancient American Artifact Preservation Foundation Conference 2007

October 5-7

Roberts Conference Centre
Holiday Inn and Max & Irma's Restaurant
Wilmington, Ohio

You can be part of the cutting edge of discoveries; of people with
diverse knowledge and findings coming together; sharing, and finding
NEW connections, and NEW solutions to the always intriguing Ancient
American Puzzle.

See, Hear, Meet- Top speakers in the fields of:
Ancient Waterways
Mounds and Caves
Ancient Copper
Epigraphy
Artifacts
Navigation Evidences
Standing Stones
Ancient Astronomy
Anthropology
Archaeology
and much more.......!

We'll have representation from:
NEARA, MES, Ancient Waterways, Ancient Earthworks, AAAPF, Ohio State
University, Ohio State Archaeology, Ancient American Magazine, ...
and more to come.

Entire conference (per person), exhibits and program fee $75 plus 2
breakfasts, 2 lunches, 2 dinners @ $120 = Full ConferenceTicket of
$195. Optional Fort Ancient ticket on Sunday group outing is special
price of just $6.

DAY TICKETS-Friday ticket without lunch and dinner (12 hrs programs
and exhibits) - $50

Friday ticket with bkfst $12, lunch $15, and dinner $25 (12 hrs
programs and exhibits) - $100

Saturday ticket without lunch and dinner (13 hrs programs &
exhibits) - $50

Saturday ticket with breakfast $12, lunch $15, and dinner $25 (13 hrs
programs and exhibits) - $100

Regular lodging at Robert's/Holiday Inn is $135. We have negotiated a
price of $93 for any number of people per room. Bookings may be made
by calling the hotel directly. Be sure and mention AAAPF Conference
to get your special price. www.robertscentre.com Phone 800-654-7036

Watch for further details and printable registration materials--SOON

Judy M Johnson AAAPF Sec.
810-299-5210

Good Sunday Morning

Hi Susan and thanks for your reply. It is always good
to hear from you. My internet is wireless and portable
but seasonal and when I get to rural minnesota it
stops. BUT a new coffee shop has just opened in
Alexandria and I will now be able to get online a few
minutes a week. Here in california I live next to the
silicon valley and have the best ,,but then the north
woods of minnesota is the dark side of the moon.

...I do not have much interest in the west coast
waterways other than walking along them  but I do try
to use it for it,s cutting edge tech and it gives me a
bit of time away to correspond,read, etc.

Susan wrote:   "Steve, did you indicate that you
purchased an entire
set of the mid-1800's survey maps of Minnesota? Dr.
Scherz is
working with a survey group researching the origins of
the
Mississippi River and we wondered if a single survey
map can be
purchased."
I have only 4 maps and they sell for $6 each and can
be purchased separately. It would take you about 10
maps for the upper mississippi. At their site you are
given a map to chose from:  Minn,
#1,2,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,19 and iowa #1. are the numbers
I would guess???that would get the river bottom of
today.
  please,,NOW,however you need to see the world a bit
different than you may be use too...I am trying to
paint a new picture for EVERYONE based on the
discoverys of this last year. There is NO upper
mississippi river BUT it is a center and deepest point
of a LARGE inland sea. The west shore of this sea is
here in west central minnesota and the east shore is
not yet visible and may be near Duluth. When I put all
my maps together and put it up on the wall,,,out
jumped the new sea and the beaches along the edge of
that sea are marked on these maps. Here in west
central minn is two large islands and a cluster of
smaller islands on witch is the KRS.
   ALSO,,,please note,,,there is no old upper
mississippi river valley before 1400,s,,,,Schoolcraft
was the indian agent who found itasca BUT Zebulin Pike
found the source somewhere else and I have a map that
also shows it in west central minnesota. Itasca was a
good place for a park, thats all! The lake in west
central minn is higher than itasca and also flows 3
directions and to the missippi,red river and hudson
bay and to lake superior.

you also wrote: "mailed back to David that I believe
one must first sign on as a
member of Yahoo groups, which includes obtaining a
Yahoo email
address."
  that is probably best but not maybe necessary,,,but i
do notice that it is easyier to load photos to FILES
rather than photos.
   I also belong to Thor and Pre columbus and American
runestones etc.

   This week I will be trying to scan my maps and
sattelite photos into my laptop and then post to your
sites and mine.They will give you a better look at
these maps. I spend hours looking at them and trying
to defind these ancient shores. ODDLY too,,these maps
have all the log cabins at the time and now have led
me to finding many of them too.

   I look foreward to discussions in the coming month.
There is so much to do,,,as the picture on the puzzle
box gets clearer and clearer and bigger too. The beach
I found on this hillside this last summer is a WHOLE
NEW WORLD,,or old. This is maybe the highest watermark
of that greatflood on this inland sea.

   I would call this new sea,,, Lake MARION or the
Marion OCEAN or the marion sea?????and i did get to
show him that sea last summer and we drove along it,s
beach. Here is the small bay which is a swamp today
and has my ship and also along this great new beach I
took the mooring stone photo with marion and leland.

   I wish that some of these unused buttons on here
could be used and one was an excitement button,,,as I
would be pressing it often. I have learned to read the
KRS and the map on it. I would be pressing that
excitement button again...!?

   Also i would hope that you and your friends know
about the free google earth and the new updates that
make flying obselete. They make tracing the river
simpler and it,s always a clear and sunny summer day
photo.

  have a great day

     steve


ps,,susan...i got poor grades in english and my typing
skills have now graduated to two fingers....I took
shop class ,,,and have been building new homes and
remodeling for 25years. sorry!





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Following ancient waterways, this week to the Chicago riverfront ...

Years ago when checking out archaeological excavations at the "Miami
Circle" over a several day period, I saw an article and diagram of
what seemed to be mid-to post-glacial era high water runoff from the
area we call the Mississippi River.  It split off in several areas,
one channel roared through Chicago and southward into an area near
where we were working. When this was, and for how long a period of
time, I do not know.

The younger archaeologist assigned to the highly-policed Miami Circl
site told me during one his breaks that the inside channel walls of
the Bay of Biscayne have many layers of civilization--far older than
the surface site under investigation at the "Miami Circle". But the
Bay is so darkly poluted, toxic, and corrosive to gear that divers
have long been unable to research the underwater areas. He also added
that many more interesting archeological sites probably of very
ancient significance long ago were buried under parking lots, hotel
sky scrapers.....back when few were interested in the type of inquiry
so many of us are doing.

Many sites which could shed light on our very ancient past are under
water, rest beneath hundreds or thousands of feet of sand, dirt, or
permanently covered over by tons of concrete and steel.

I was doing a follow-up following a discussion I had earlier this
week with a professional man from Chicago who is researching evidence
about Chicago as a very ancient water and trade route.

I recall articles in Ancient American Magazine regarding ancient
travel or habitation around the Chicago riverways and waterfront.
One article in the late 80's had a photo about an ancient stone face
which seemed to resemble Olmec, Middle Eastern, perhaps African
features was found on a large slab down there.

I did an Internet search, then emailed a request to the Ancient
American staff, received a reply from Wayne May today, then relayed
back to Wayne and Frank multiple links about the Waubansee Stone.
From an Amazon.com ReaderBook I discovered, is article about the site
that readers here can read online:

"Discovering the Mysteries of Ancient America: Lost History And
Legends, Unearthed And Explored", by David Hatcher Childress,
Zecharia Sitchin, Wayne May, Andrew Collins, Frank Joseph (some of
you reading Posts know several of the authors personally).

Page 200 in the on-line book shows a photo w/brief description of the
Wabansee (Waubansee) Stone found somewhere along the Chicago
riverfront. If anyone hears where it is now, or what room of the
museum !, please reply. P. 200:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1564148424/ref=sib_dp_pt/002-2269162-
9302459#reader-link

Another possibly ancient "Bayer Stone" was found in NY or VA; The
December, 2006 article--an interesting article in and of itself--has
letters of reply end of the web site. #8 parallels the stone's
inquiry to that of the Chicago Waubansee Stone. I mailed the link to
Ancient American to investigate, pehaps do an article on Stone Faces:

http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/bayer-cont/

Susan

----- Original Message -----

From: Susan English

To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 4:56 PM

Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Ancient? "Waubansee Stone" from Chicago riverfront. Also---the "Bayer Stone"

Following ancient waterways, this week to the Chicago riverfront ...

Years ago when checking out archaeological excavations at the "Miami
Circle" over a several day period, I saw an article and diagram of
what seemed to be mid-to post-glacial era high water runoff from the
area we call the Mississippi River. It split off in several areas,
one channel roared through Chicago and southward into an area near
where we were working. When this was, and for how long a period of
time, I do not know.

The younger archaeologist assigned to the highly-policed Miami Circl
site told me during one his breaks that the inside channel walls of
the Bay of Biscayne have many layers of civilization--far older than
the surface site under investigation at the "Miami Circle". But the
Bay is so darkly poluted, toxic, and corrosive to gear that divers
have long been unable to research the underwater areas. He also added
that many more interesting archeological sites probably of very
ancient significance long ago were buried under parking lots, hotel
sky scrapers.....back when few were interested in the type of inquiry
so many of us are doing.

Many sites which could shed light on our very ancient past are under
water, rest beneath hundreds or thousands of feet of sand, dirt, or
permanently covered over by tons of concrete and steel.

I was doing a follow-up following a discussion I had earlier this
week with a professional man from Chicago who is researching evidence
about Chicago as a very ancient water and trade route.

I recall articles in Ancient American Magazine regarding ancient
travel or habitation around the Chicago riverways and waterfront.
One article in the late 80's had a photo about an ancient stone face
which seemed to resemble Olmec, Middle Eastern, perhaps African
features was found on a large slab down there.

I did an Internet search, then emailed a request to the Ancient
American staff, received a reply from Wayne May today, then relayed
back to Wayne and Frank multiple links about the Waubansee Stone.
From an Amazon.com ReaderBook I discovered, is article about the site
that readers here can read online:

"Discovering the Mysteries of Ancient America: Lost History And
Legends, Unearthed And Explored", by David Hatcher Childress,
Zecharia Sitchin, Wayne May, Andrew Collins, Frank Joseph (some of
you reading Posts know several of the authors personally).

Page 200 in the on-line book shows a photo w/brief description of the
Wabansee (Waubansee) Stone found somewhere along the Chicago
riverfront. If anyone hears where it is now, or what room of the
museum !, please reply. P. 200:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1564148424/ref=sib_dp_pt/002-2269162-
9302459#reader-link

Another possibly ancient "Bayer Stone" was found in NY or VA; The
December, 2006 article--an interesting article in and of itself--has
letters of reply end of the web site. #8 parallels the stone's
inquiry to that of the Chicago Waubansee Stone. I mailed the link to
Ancient American to investigate, pehaps do an article on Stone Faces:

http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/bayer-cont/

Susan

Ancient Waterways Society

I have posted a file with a sample of the maps availible at;

http://www.trygglandoffice.com/maps.html

I hope this is not too large of a file.
   This map is of west central minnesota and the highest part of the
state.It is of the Alexandria and surrounding lakes area and has the
KRS Runestone Hill marked.This is mid 1800,s and the first land survey
made as the first settlers are just entering the area. Each small
square is one square mile.
   The green highlighted area is the land above the highest water
mark,1500 feet and above.The pinkish area is the big islands and high
ground(with the oak forest)  above 1450 feet.The chippawwa river runs
north from the runestone up between the two stoney peaks (skylars)to
the inland shallow sea in the upper right corner. This is about a days
journey.
   The small town of Jasper is in the middle of the map and is now
known as Parkers Prairie. It is also the source of the mississippi
river on another map.
   I hope this may be helpful in your research.

        Steve

Pam,and all,

Thanks for the information that the Waubansee Stone is still
connected with the Field Museum; I hope to seek it out. A couple of
old Chicago items:

Here is the "W" page from the Encyclopedia of Early Chicago; one can
see Native American Indian names for many of the streets, buildings,
parks...(as is true throughout the Great Lakes and much of the
country).

Early Chicago web site- Waubansee also Wabansa, Wabansie, Wabansee,
Wapunsy, Waubonsa, Wabonsia, Wahponseh—the...Wabansa stone a
glacial boulder that appears to be red granite.  Scroll down to
Waubansee Stone for the site's description and photo:

http://www.earlychicago.com/encyclopedia.php?letter=W

From the Directory of the City of Chicago, Obituaries
(August0December, 1843):  Wabansee, (Indian chief), died, Boonville,
Mo., fall 1846, aged 80:

http://all-ancestors.com/chicago/chicago048.htm

Chicago parks, streets, a school are named after Chief Wabansee.

Also, another chief w/similar name is a descendent of  long ago giant
cultures mentioned occasionally in the "Precolumbian Incriptions" web
site. Same source= Wabinsheway 'White Elk', a Potawatomi chief of
unusually tall stature'....

I am having trouble since the last letter inserting the
AmazonOnlineReader link to view p. 200 which shows a clear photo (and
article) of the stone, from "Discovering the Mysteries of Ancient
America: Lost History And Legends, Unearthed And Explored".  May be
too long:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1564148424/ref=sib_dp_pt/002-2269162-
9302459#reader-link

I was born not far from the Miami Circle mentioned earlier, but grew
up in the Chicago area and frequently visited the Field Museum. I
later resided along water routes in Colorado, Lower Michigan, N.
Dakota, SW Lake Superior shores, now overlooking the Wisconsin
River.  Funny how many of us live along/travel old or ancient
waterways, then develop a passion for retracing these signinificant
paths which have linked 'global others' throughout the millinnea and
beyond.

Most significant in my personal pursuits, though, is not merely
studying historic seafaring historic cultures, but ancient
descendents who inhabited, traded, & traveled water routes of the
Americas which many know linked world peoples to lands and cultures
across the world....times when water levels, waterway routes,
climactic and geographic conditions, etc. varied greatly from today.

I see from the profile and previous letter, one of the members
here, "Marmot", that you live in the NW part of the state. It would
be wonderful to learn more from you about that part of the continent.
I did not take good time to read or respond to you, or earlier posts
from other very well.

As you can tell from this month's posts, I initially had little time
to commit to this site when the set-up person of this site,
MinnesotaStan, kindly followed through with my request at an Ancient
Earthworks Society meeting a few years ago.  I hope to be able to
continue part-time hours so as to further ancient socio-culture
studies which strongly includes scientific  "diffusionist" views and
research.

The beauty about groups such as this is that collectively, through
correspondence, we can directly learn about, sometimes even visit
each other's waterway areas w/their accompanying ancient legends
which often seem to carry larger truths than historical accounts.
The more people who write posts about the old waterways they frequent
or have researched, the names and legends surrounding them, the
greater the historical record can thus be extended far into the
ancient past.

For some years I have been asked to join cooperative research with
Native American grad students and others of various cultures in
researching, surveying, preserving the few remaining ancient sites
left around this part of the country. I suspect this will increase
the more I become semi-retired.

I seem to be learning more about the pre-history of particular
regions and waterways by way of aboriginal, "Indian" and Native
American names such areas were originally known by. Unfortunately
most records are limited to post-Columbian historical accounts, as I
am finding currently in researching the Wisconsin River. I wonder if
we might get far enough back into ancient history, prior to the
divisions and schisms of nations, even before the times of worldwide
nation states, that we may also find no tribal and nation
differentiations and conflicts that are often carried from earliest
historic account and verbal legends of the Americas.

I believe we are in a significant era of cooperative rather than
competition where we are beginning once again to interconnect
peacefully, globally----neither excluding nor degrading any culture.
Answers to our many current social problems may well be found only
within the integrity of deeper truths of our very ancient past. Then,
not just studying and archiving these truths, but living them.

It has long been my hope that by traveling ancient, global Americas--
starting from each of our own personal water route regions
of 'visitation'--that we, as a very open-minded/hearted Ancient
Waterways Society group, can help find and bring intimately into our
lives many legacies of the wisdomkeepers of ancient times,  waiting
to be handed forth to us, into the historical record for us now, and
our ancestry.

My deepest thanks for being here at this web site.

M. Susan English
________________________________________________________
--- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Pam" <pgiese@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi Susan!
>
> Last I heard, the stone was at the Chicago Historical Society
Museum.  I visited it there about 2 or 3 years ago.  At that time it
was positioned outside of a permanent exhibit on the streets and
development of Chicago.
>
> The stone is of the scale of some Mayan and Olmec sculptures I've
seen.   It also seems to me I remember reading a description of a
signalling stone that seemed similar to the Waubansee Stone...if I
remember what that was, I'll send more.
>
> Pam
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Susan English
>   To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 4:56 PM
>   Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Ancient? "Waubansee Stone"
from Chicago riverfront. Also---the "Bayer Stone"
>
>
>   Following ancient waterways, this week to the Chicago
riverfront ...
>
>   Years ago when checking out archaeological excavations at
the "Miami
>   Circle" over a several day period, I saw an article and diagram
of
>   what seemed to be mid-to post-glacial era high water runoff from
the
>   area we call the Mississippi River. It split off in several
areas,
>   one channel roared through Chicago and southward into an area
near
>   where we were working. When this was, and for how long a period
of
>   time, I do not know.
>
>   The younger archaeologist assigned to the highly-policed Miami
Circl
>   site told me during one his breaks that the inside channel walls
of
>   the Bay of Biscayne have many layers of civilization--far older
than
>   the surface site under investigation at the "Miami Circle". But
the
>   Bay is so darkly poluted, toxic, and corrosive to gear that
divers
>   have long been unable to research the underwater areas. He also
added
>   that many more interesting archeological sites probably of very
>   ancient significance long ago were buried under parking lots,
hotel
>   sky scrapers.....back when few were interested in the type of
inquiry
>   so many of us are doing.
>
>   Many sites which could shed light on our very ancient past are
under
>   water, rest beneath hundreds or thousands of feet of sand, dirt,
or
>   permanently covered over by tons of concrete and steel.
>
>   I was doing a follow-up following a discussion I had earlier this
>   week with a professional man from Chicago who is researching
evidence
>   about Chicago as a very ancient water and trade route.
>
>   I recall articles in Ancient American Magazine regarding ancient
>   travel or habitation around the Chicago riverways and waterfront.
>   One article in the late 80's had a photo about an ancient stone
face
>   which seemed to resemble Olmec, Middle Eastern, perhaps African
>   features was found on a large slab down there.
>
>   I did an Internet search, then emailed a request to the Ancient
>   American staff, received a reply from Wayne May today, then
relayed
>   back to Wayne and Frank multiple links about the Waubansee Stone.
>   From an Amazon.com ReaderBook I discovered, is article about the
site
>   that readers here can read online:
>
>   "Discovering the Mysteries of Ancient America: Lost History And
>   Legends, Unearthed And Explored", by David Hatcher Childress,
>   Zecharia Sitchin, Wayne May, Andrew Collins, Frank Joseph (some
of
>   you reading Posts know several of the authors personally).
>
>   Page 200 in the on-line book shows a photo w/brief description of
the
>   Wabansee (Waubansee) Stone found somewhere along the Chicago
>   riverfront. If anyone hears where it is now, or what room of the
>   museum !, please reply. P. 200:
>
>   http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1564148424/ref=sib_dp_pt/002-
2269162-
>   9302459#reader-link
>
>   Another possibly ancient "Bayer Stone" was found in NY or VA; The
>   December, 2006 article--an interesting article in and of itself--
has
>   letters of reply end of the web site. #8 parallels the stone's
>   inquiry to that of the Chicago Waubansee Stone. I mailed the link
to
>   Ancient American to investigate, pehaps do an article on Stone
Faces:
>
>   http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/bayer-cont/
>
>   Susan
>

Steve, and all,

Thanks, Steve for your great letter.  I have dial-up  & an old PC, so
will have to wait until I can pull up the file at the public library
next week.

I am lately doing a search of the Wisconsin River, am asking
researcher-writer and speaker, David Hoffman to bite the bullet by
getting a Yahoo email address, then sign on so he can share his
knowledge about the Wisconsin and interconnecting waterways.

I very much look forward to delving more deeply into the various
epochs of the Mississippi River you have been sharing. Fred Rydholm
even goes so far back as to talking about intelligent human beings
living on the continent between the last two ice ages when the
landscape, when the climate was likely very different from what we
know of from scientific and historical records.

I am constantly needing to ask myself what era/time period am I to
consider when viewing certain water levels, old high ground
habitation sites, remnants of underwater civilizations, mooring
stones, mounds, lakes, seas, rivers, streams, areas altered by dams
or catastrophic events.

Even what is termed "viking", I will recall a couple things from
researcher Marion Dahm who spoke so admirably of you, Steve. I'd
printed out some of his research stationary, and recall on his
letterhead he extended mooring stone, infrared aerial photography,
and underwater work he was involved in to include ancient 'vikings'
back as far as 5000 years.  Days before his death via phone when I
was reading some of the letters to him from various Yahoogroup sites
on the subject, he told me he had extended it even further back.

We all are aware of through our educations and endless historical
records, the terrible schisms, wars, divisions which have divided
people, nations, taken or destroyed lands, desecrated sacred sites,
artifacts, writings. But I think we may discover, if we continue to
go back far enough, considerable intercooperation and "diffusion"
among many of these ancient peoples, especially they who
cooperatively traveled, provided free access through "international
waters", shared resources, and perhaps acted as better stewards of
the lands and waters than we who inhabit them today. We may likely
all be descendents of each other if we go far enough back, but
nevertheless, each of us can closely "relate" to each other in what
we pass on legacies, and we and our followers can travel together
along the seas of cleaner and more amicable waters.

Susan
(of course...this web site, the host, and members need not necessariy
agree with the personal views of this author)

--- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "hilgren"
<hilgren@...> wrote:
>
> Ancient Waterways Society
>
> I have posted a file with a sample of the maps availible at;
>
> http://www.trygglandoffice.com/maps.html
>
> I hope this is not too large of a file.
>   This map is of west central minnesota and the highest part of the
> state.It is of the Alexandria and surrounding lakes area and has the
> KRS Runestone Hill marked.This is mid 1800,s and the first land
survey
> made as the first settlers are just entering the area. Each small
> square is one square mile.
>   The green highlighted area is the land above the highest water
> mark,1500 feet and above.The pinkish area is the big islands and
high
> ground(with the oak forest)  above 1450 feet.The chippawwa river
runs
> north from the runestone up between the two stoney peaks (skylars)to
> the inland shallow sea in the upper right corner. This is about a
days
> journey.
>   The small town of Jasper is in the middle of the map and is now
> known as Parkers Prairie. It is also the source of the mississippi
> river on another map.
>   I hope this may be helpful in your research.
>
>        Steve
>

Hi Susan, My uncle Clarence was a few years older than Marion and he
knew pyramids like Marion knew vikings(don,t ever get me going on all
his stories). Clarence saw we would use this modern technoogy to solve
these great mysterys in an age of coming together.WE,,,you, me and a
few others,, that are trying to put all the pieces together.

Today I found this while reading about the chippawwa indians,:

"At the time of the Second Fire the people were encamped along the
east shore of the third sweet water sea.  There they searched for a
way to cross the sea to continue their journey in search of the food
that grows on water.  Here they stayed for a long time establishing
villages and planting gardens.  In attending to basic survival needs,
people began to neglect the sacred ways and soon forgot about their
journey.  Only a few of the elders still remembered the purpose of
their migration.  Then a little boy had a dream about a path of stones
that would lead across the waters.  They returned to the River that
Cuts Like a Knife and retraced their steps.  There they found a chain
of islands that lead across the sweet water sea.

Moving the people by canoe they continued their western journey in
search of the food that grows on water.  On the largest island in the
chain the Sacred Megis appeared to the people, rising out of the water.

This island became the center of the Anishinabeg nation, the Sacred
Fire was brought here, the sacred water drum of the Midewiwin Society
was heard again.  Then the water drum was moved to the eastern shore
of another sweet water sea and the Sacred Megis appeared again.  Here
the people had their first contact with the Light-skinned people"

WOW,,susan,,,the Sweet Water Sea(that ocean i was trying to name),,and
wildrice(food that grows on water)...indians that carved stone and had
a secret society,,the mediwiwin...This sounds more and  more like a
knights templar that was with the vikings and their visit to west
central minnesota.

Marion spoke often of the ancients who were here a few thousand years
ago and then the viking returned a thousand years ago and then the
norse explorers of the KRS in 1362 retracing the route of those
earlier vikings....but always WATER,,lots and lots,,,oceans,,and SWEET
WATER SEAS.

As for the wisconsin river,,more water!deeper deeper,,,keep going!

Thanks so very much
Steve

Ancient Waterways Society friends,

Steve, very moving post, ideas, and how you interrelated it to other
Posts/articles sent to this web site.  Is there is an Internet link
to the fine Chippewa reading? I also look forward to learning more
about Uncle Clarence and pyramids.

I am heavily immersed in studies/clinical work in Madison, Wisconsin,
soon to finish a Sleep Medicine (Polysomnography) program. With
repordedly 40,000,000 Americans currently having sleep disorders
severe enough to require medical interventions, I may aim more toward
research/preventative studies within the field. Imagine my delight in
finding this interesting article on dream sleep and another story of
the Medawin/Mediwiwin which I discovered after reading Steve's Post.
I will also share it with other Sleep techs. I frequent Baraga,
Michigan en route to ancient or sacred sites and researchers residing
in the Copper Country. Coincidentally too, Prof. Jim Scherz of
Madison is well acquainted with Don & Vicki Dowd of the Mediwiwin
Society along Lake Michigan shores that Steve's post mentions...

Concluding paragraphs to article (web link below for full
article): "....Some cultures, still rooted deep in their tradition
and fused to their religious teachings, have their own answer to
Hobson's "hard problem." For the past several years I've worked on
environmental projects with American Indian communities in Michigan's
Upper Peninsula, and I've become acquainted with remnants of an
Ojibwa religion called Mediwiwin. Originating on the shores of Lake
Superior hundreds of years ago, this community is described by its
followers as a "dreamer society." An elder from the Red Cliff
Reservation recently told a friend of mine this Mediwiwin story about
the origin of the world:

The Great Manitou first created the waters, then the rock, the sun,
then the forests. Soon he was lonely so he created the animals of the
land and the fish of the sea. Each was dependent on the other. He was
delighted with his creation so he next fashioned a couple of two-
legged creatures and called them man and woman. Suddenly he realized
he had made a terrible mistake. The two-legged ones were, because of
their dependency, vulnerable upon everything else. He pondered this
and asked himself, "What shall I do?" He decided to give the two-
legged ones a chance to be equal, to exercise balance through insight
and visions. He gave them a special power, a gift: the dream.

More recently I visited a Potawatomi Indian community near the shores
of Lake Michigan. There I met Don and Vicki Dowd of the Mediwiwin
Society. Don mentioned that he had met with a priest who had asked
about native spiritual traditions and how they might be recovered.
His reply to the priest was: "Tell the truth about Bishop Baraga and
the journal entries." He explained that the Mediwiwin believe Baraga
not only attended native ceremonies and prayed with Ojibwa but asked
to be initiated "into the way of the dream."

There is no record in his published journals that Baraga ever
explored the Mediwiwin dream spirituality. The tale of his crossing
over into the dreamer society may be apocryphal. Nevertheless, the
story itself hints of hidden worlds, or of a single universe
connecting disparate realities.

In our own time and place, the worlds of myth and science, of
religious experience and empirical research, are frequently set in
opposition to one another. It may be a striking irony that
neurologists like Hobson and Jouvet can contribute to a recovery of
what many people in churches have abandoned: a belief in a divine
force outside ourselves, a healing presence deep within that still
speaks through dreams and visions.

last passage of article, 'Are Humans Wired to Dream?':
http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=3222
__________________

--- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "hilgren"
<hilgren@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Susan, My uncle Clarence was a few years older than Marion and he
> knew pyramids like Marion knew vikings(don,t ever get me going on
all
> his stories). Clarence saw we would use this modern technoogy to
solve
> these great mysterys in an age of coming together.WE,,,you, me and a
> few others,, that are trying to put all the pieces together.
>
> Today I found this while reading about the chippawwa indians,:
>
> "At the time of the Second Fire the people were encamped along the
> east shore of the third sweet water sea.  There they searched for a
> way to cross the sea to continue their journey in search of the food
> that grows on water.  Here they stayed for a long time establishing
> villages and planting gardens.  In attending to basic survival
needs,
> people began to neglect the sacred ways and soon forgot about their
> journey.  Only a few of the elders still remembered the purpose of
> their migration.  Then a little boy had a dream about a path of
stones
> that would lead across the waters.  They returned to the River that
> Cuts Like a Knife and retraced their steps.  There they found a
chain
> of islands that lead across the sweet water sea.
>
> Moving the people by canoe they continued their western journey in
> search of the food that grows on water.  On the largest island in
the
> chain the Sacred Megis appeared to the people, rising out of the
water.
>
> This island became the center of the Anishinabeg nation, the Sacred
> Fire was brought here, the sacred water drum of the Midewiwin
Society
> was heard again.  Then the water drum was moved to the eastern shore
> of another sweet water sea and the Sacred Megis appeared again.
Here
> the people had their first contact with the Light-skinned people"
>
> WOW,,susan,,,the Sweet Water Sea(that ocean i was trying to
name),,and
> wildrice(food that grows on water)...indians that carved stone and
had
> a secret society,,the mediwiwin...This sounds more and  more like a
> knights templar that was with the vikings and their visit to west
> central minnesota.
>
> Marion spoke often of the ancients who were here a few thousand
years
> ago and then the viking returned a thousand years ago and then the
> norse explorers of the KRS in 1362 retracing the route of those
> earlier vikings....but always WATER,,lots and lots,,,oceans,,and
SWEET
> WATER SEAS.
>
> As for the wisconsin river,,more water!deeper deeper,,,keep going!
>
> Thanks so very much
> Steve
>

In north central Minnesota, about halfway between Duluth and the North
Dakota border, is a large lake called Leech Lake.  On the south shore
sits the town of Walker, which this year began work on a new Community
Center.  In preparation for that, an archaeological survey was
commissioned.  On the initial walkover, a pit was discovered and
thought to be a remnant of the fur trade era, so a dig was started.
Modern artifacts from the pit showed that it had been created by
children as a "play fort" but the dig also began retrieving lithic
artifacts.

To make a long story short, the scrapers and bifaces are now thought
to be pre-Clovis.  In fact, some were recovered from below a layer of
glacial outwash till.  The tentative date assigned to them is about
12,000 - 14,000 years b.p.

The significance is that this find pushes back the timeline for human
arrival in the Midwest.  If the putative date of the find is
confirmed, the Walker site would be contemporaneous with Tom
Dillehay's Monte Verde site in Chile and the Meadowcroft Rockshelter
in Pennsylvania.

Of note for this group is that postulated patterns of migration might
also be better defined, especially the debate about arrival via an
interglacial pathway through modern Canada versus in-migration to the
Central Plains after arrival from a coastal site.

It amazes me that the investigators searched below the level of
glacial till.  When I dug with the Forestry Service in northern
Minnesota, we stopped after hitting 10 cm of sterility from glacial
debris.  Perhaps the children's play pit had already penetrated the
glacial till (which isn't far below the surface in that part of the
country).

Here are two links with some details, one from the St. Paul newspaper
website -

http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/news/local/16450766.htm

and the other from a Twin Cities television station -

http://wcco.com/local/local_story_012071945.html


Those of you who are familiar with the upper Midwest in January will
understand that there is no digging underway now.  I presume there is
a flurry of scanning EM and other specialty curation of the lithics
taking place.  I own some property less than two miles from the dig
site, and spend much of my summmer up there, so I'll pass along to
this group any news I hear from the locals that doesn't make the
mainstream media.

Stan

Susan, you may want to look at dream catchers:
   "This is where the path divides.  No longer will the way of the mind
be allowed to dominate and divide.  People of the Mind must be shown
the vision of the Seventh Prophet of the Anishinabe and given a choice
to learn to walk in balance.  They must rediscover their connection to
all things --- the path of the spirit.

To many "civilized" people, the path traveled by my People seems slow
and primitive.  The power and wisdom of this path isn't easily
understood when their mind is taught to play inside boundaries and
their heart is closed to sissagwaad, the soft wind of Spirit."

http://www.the7thfire.com/fulfilling_the_prophecies.htm

http://www.the7thfire.com/index2.htm

   "Dream catcher history is known with some credibility due to the
dedicated field work of  Frances Densmore at the beginning of the last
century.  She traveled from her home in Red Wing, Minnesota to Detroit
Lakes, Minnesota just south of the White Earth Indian Reservation
where she set up a recording studio in the back of a music shop. For
five years she recorded the music of the Ojibwe for the Smithsonian
Institute Bureau of American Ethnology. "

  "Groups of the Anishinabeg traveled along the north and south shores
of the fourth sweet water sea and reaching a bay at the western end
they found mah-no-men, wild rice, "the food that grows on water." The
destination had been reached.  Spirit Island in the bay was the sixth
stopping place.  Not very far away along the southern shore of the
great sweet water sea they found an island shaped like a turtle, the
final sign that their journey was complete.  They placed tobacco on
the shore as an offering to the Great Spirit who had led them to this
holy place.  They called the island  Moh-ning'wun-ih-kawn-ing.  This
became the capital of a powerful Anishinabeg nation and the Great
Sweet Water Sea was called Gii-dzhii Ojibwe-gah-meeng, the Great Sea
of the Ojibwe (called  Gitchi gumi in Longfellow's poem,  Hiawatha).'

Susan,,,WOW,,,Mahnomen means wild rice and is in western minnesota and
just north of Detroit Lakes which is 20 miles north of me. This
description of the turtle sounds alot like the new island i have found
and are on the map i had uploaded. I am not sure if they are talking
about lake superior,,,but Marion though the turtle was out in north
dakota,,,,BUT,,deeper waters again,,,make me think this is west
central minnesota, the high ground.

thanks
Steve






--- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan English"
<beldingenglish@...> wrote:
>
> Ancient Waterways Society friends,
>
> Steve, very moving post, ideas, and how you interrelated it to other
> Posts/articles sent to this web site.  Is there is an Internet link
> to the fine Chippewa reading? I also look forward to learning more
> about Uncle Clarence and pyramids.
>
> I am heavily immersed in studies/clinical work in Madison, Wisconsin,
> soon to finish a Sleep Medicine (Polysomnography) program. With
> repordedly 40,000,000 Americans currently having sleep disorders
> severe enough to require medical interventions, I may aim more toward
> research/preventative studies within the field. Imagine my delight in
> finding this interesting article on dream sleep and another story of
> the Medawin/Mediwiwin which I discovered after reading Steve's Post.
> I will also share it with other Sleep techs. I frequent Baraga,
> Michigan en route to ancient or sacred sites and researchers residing
> in the Copper Country. Coincidentally too, Prof. Jim Scherz of
> Madison is well acquainted with Don & Vicki Dowd of the Mediwiwin
> Society along Lake Michigan shores that Steve's post mentions...
>
> Concluding paragraphs to article (web link below for full
> article): "....Some cultures, still rooted deep in their tradition
> and fused to their religious teachings, have their own answer to
> Hobson's "hard problem." For the past several years I've worked on
> environmental projects with American Indian communities in Michigan's
> Upper Peninsula, and I've become acquainted with remnants of an
> Ojibwa religion called Mediwiwin. Originating on the shores of Lake
> Superior hundreds of years ago, this community is described by its
> followers as a "dreamer society." An elder from the Red Cliff
> Reservation recently told a friend of mine this Mediwiwin story about
> the origin of the world:
>
> The Great Manitou first created the waters, then the rock, the sun,
> then the forests. Soon he was lonely so he created the animals of the
> land and the fish of the sea. Each was dependent on the other. He was
> delighted with his creation so he next fashioned a couple of two-
> legged creatures and called them man and woman. Suddenly he realized
> he had made a terrible mistake. The two-legged ones were, because of
> their dependency, vulnerable upon everything else. He pondered this
> and asked himself, "What shall I do?" He decided to give the two-
> legged ones a chance to be equal, to exercise balance through insight
> and visions. He gave them a special power, a gift: the dream.
>
> More recently I visited a Potawatomi Indian community near the shores
> of Lake Michigan. There I met Don and Vicki Dowd of the Mediwiwin
> Society. Don mentioned that he had met with a priest who had asked
> about native spiritual traditions and how they might be recovered.
> His reply to the priest was: "Tell the truth about Bishop Baraga and
> the journal entries." He explained that the Mediwiwin believe Baraga
> not only attended native ceremonies and prayed with Ojibwa but asked
> to be initiated "into the way of the dream."
>
> There is no record in his published journals that Baraga ever
> explored the Mediwiwin dream spirituality. The tale of his crossing
> over into the dreamer society may be apocryphal. Nevertheless, the
> story itself hints of hidden worlds, or of a single universe
> connecting disparate realities.
>
> In our own time and place, the worlds of myth and science, of
> religious experience and empirical research, are frequently set in
> opposition to one another. It may be a striking irony that
> neurologists like Hobson and Jouvet can contribute to a recovery of
> what many people in churches have abandoned: a belief in a divine
> force outside ourselves, a healing presence deep within that still
> speaks through dreams and visions.
>
> last passage of article, 'Are Humans Wired to Dream?':
> http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=3222
> __________________
>
> --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "hilgren"
> <hilgren@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Susan, My uncle Clarence was a few years older than Marion and he
> > knew pyramids like Marion knew vikings(don,t ever get me going on
> all
> > his stories). Clarence saw we would use this modern technoogy to
> solve
> > these great mysterys in an age of coming together.WE,,,you, me and a
> > few others,, that are trying to put all the pieces together.
> >
> > Today I found this while reading about the chippawwa indians,:
> >
> > "At the time of the Second Fire the people were encamped along the
> > east shore of the third sweet water sea.  There they searched for a
> > way to cross the sea to continue their journey in search of the food
> > that grows on water.  Here they stayed for a long time establishing
> > villages and planting gardens.  In attending to basic survival
> needs,
> > people began to neglect the sacred ways and soon forgot about their
> > journey.  Only a few of the elders still remembered the purpose of
> > their migration.  Then a little boy had a dream about a path of
> stones
> > that would lead across the waters.  They returned to the River that
> > Cuts Like a Knife and retraced their steps.  There they found a
> chain
> > of islands that lead across the sweet water sea.
> >
> > Moving the people by canoe they continued their western journey in
> > search of the food that grows on water.  On the largest island in
> the
> > chain the Sacred Megis appeared to the people, rising out of the
> water.
> >
> > This island became the center of the Anishinabeg nation, the Sacred
> > Fire was brought here, the sacred water drum of the Midewiwin
> Society
> > was heard again.  Then the water drum was moved to the eastern shore
> > of another sweet water sea and the Sacred Megis appeared again.
> Here
> > the people had their first contact with the Light-skinned people"
> >
> > WOW,,susan,,,the Sweet Water Sea(that ocean i was trying to
> name),,and
> > wildrice(food that grows on water)...indians that carved stone and
> had
> > a secret society,,the mediwiwin...This sounds more and  more like a
> > knights templar that was with the vikings and their visit to west
> > central minnesota.
> >
> > Marion spoke often of the ancients who were here a few thousand
> years
> > ago and then the viking returned a thousand years ago and then the
> > norse explorers of the KRS in 1362 retracing the route of those
> > earlier vikings....but always WATER,,lots and lots,,,oceans,,and
> SWEET
> > WATER SEAS.
> >
> > As for the wisconsin river,,more water!deeper deeper,,,keep going!
> >
> > Thanks so very much
> > Steve
> >
>

Susan you wrote:"In our own time and place, the worlds of myth and
science, of religious experience and empirical research, are
frequently set in opposition to one another.a belief in a divine
force outside ourselves, a healing presence deep within that still
speaks through dreams and visions."

When I was a child my uncles took me along duck hunting on the back of
the turtle(inspiration peak). I was about 12 and had no gun and so
would run ahead and scare the game away so they would not be shot too.
I came upon a deer and together we played in the woods. After a few
minutes my uncles came walking and when a few hundred feet away they
stopped and watched as I played with this new friend...When they
started to walk again the deer looked up and so i put my arms around
its neck to try to hold him and calm him as they walked closer.But he
pulled his head and bolted away..My uncle would go on to be a
vetranarian and professor at the U.ofM. He always was amazed at this
thing i had with animals and tested me often,,,I had to go tie up the
meanist dogs before he could even get out of the truck in many farmers
yards...(and people though he had a way with animals?!)

So here on the back of this great turtle of the mediwiwn I played with
the great spirt. I return there often and have not found him
reciently. May be he will be there this spring when I return. I have a
few mushrooms to share with him. I will bring along a dream catcher
now too.

So too,,,a bunch of years ago,,,I stumbled into the Gurichief
Society,,,seames they think a few of us have this gift,,,and if you
are at the right place you can catch these dreams and vision.

Thanks for this new insight,,,dream catchers,,,now I know what those
spider-web things i have seen often, are about.
steve

ps who,s that other guy from up near leach lake?Does he know about the
deeper water and the sweet water sea?

Hi Susan, Over on Thor last year,, just before you went to New
Orleans,,you asked if anyone had any ideas (dreams)and I suggested
barrels to get in and ride out the storms after seeing all the barrels
floating on the sunami waves debri piles.,,but,,,more like the barrels
people rode in that would have gone over falls.,,,so
now,,barrels,,drums. There is this guy here in santa cruz that marches
up and down mainstreet and dresses all in blue and blue face paint and
then has a blue plastic barrel,,cut off and made into a
drum.???indians??so the mediwiwin had the keeper of the sacred
drum???so is that to bang on or to carry fresh water in?or both?
  The mediwiwin too have a cross and where it came from has been the
source of a lot of speculation over the years. Over at thor after you
left,,dave and I ,,off line,, took a look at templars and found a
celtic cross with a wheel that turned and it was a tool.It maybe was
used even to build the pyramids I,ve read. The cross was able to aline
with the north star and was used for navigating?We joked that this was
maybe the KEY to the wayback machine. Mr peobody was not amused.

   The mediwiwn society have three branches, the keepers of the fire,
the keepers of the drum and the keeper of the sacred otter medicine
bag.There are some trippy things in that bag.Dream enhancement.

Time to catch a few dreams
thanks Susan
While studying my family history,,,on my all swedish fathers side I
found I am the great great great grandson of effraim the son of THOR.

                          ! w o w !
                             aka
                            steve

now what?

Stan, and all,

Soon as I saw the post about the discovery at Leech Lake, Minnesota,
I emailed a few friends, many of whom are onlookers but not members
of this site with Yahoo email addresses. Welcome to all interested
persons viewing posts.

An email reply to the link came this afternoon from Ancient
Earthworks Society president Tom Solberg stating his interest in the
Leech Lake site. He wrote that a Dr. David Overstreet of Marquette
University lectured to the Ancient Earthworks Society a few years ago
regarding a butchered mammoth he found in Kenosha County that dates
back 13,500 BP. Tom said earlier he could see a relationship
between "ancient earthworks" and "ancient waterways", liked the idea
that Stan, myself through this site might organize a little spring or
summer field trip to the Leech Lake site should there prove anything
of interest to see. He suggested the Kenosha Public Museum might well
be included--it has an excellent mammoth display.

Thursday will see at least two or three of us from this site meeting
with Tom, members of the Ancient Earthworks Society, and newcomers in
Madison for a field trip, 5:30 PM dinner at Perkins on University
Avenue, then the Fred Rydholm talk at the ameeting on the UW campus.
James Scherz is bringing someone up from Loyolla University. Weather
permitting, Fred Rydholm has decided to drive down from Marquette
with his publisher rather thanead of addressing the group by
teleconference. Both had me read the pre-Clovis post in its entirety
this afternoon, thought it highly significant in relation to work
they have been doing. It would be interesting to see if three is a
mid-1800's survey map Steve mentioned for the area around Leech lake.

Thanks, Stan for the initial information detailing the Madison
meeting. With time short this week, I have been referring emails
requesting AES meeting information to Post #46 of this web site.

Looking forward to seeing many of you at future conferences, field
trips, and meetings of other activities related to ancient waterways,
things of archaeological and cultural significance.

Susan
..  --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "minnesotastan"
<minnesotastan@...> wrote:
>
> In north central Minnesota, about halfway between Duluth and the
North
> Dakota border, is a large lake called Leech Lake.  On the south
shore
> sits the town of Walker, which this year began work on a new
Community
> Center.  In preparation for that, an archaeological survey was
> commissioned.  On the initial walkover, a pit was discovered and
> thought to be a remnant of the fur trade era, so a dig was started.
> Modern artifacts from the pit showed that it had been created by
> children as a "play fort" but the dig also began retrieving lithic
> artifacts.
>
> To make a long story short, the scrapers and bifaces are now thought
> to be pre-Clovis.  In fact, some were recovered from below a layer
of
> glacial outwash till.  The tentative date assigned to them is about
> 12,000 - 14,000 years b.p.
>
> The significance is that this find pushes back the timeline for
human
> arrival in the Midwest.  If the putative date of the find is
> confirmed, the Walker site would be contemporaneous with Tom
> Dillehay's Monte Verde site in Chile and the Meadowcroft Rockshelter
> in Pennsylvania.
>
> Of note for this group is that postulated patterns of migration
might
> also be better defined, especially the debate about arrival via an
> interglacial pathway through modern Canada versus in-migration to
the
> Central Plains after arrival from a coastal site.
>
> It amazes me that the investigators searched below the level of
> glacial till.  When I dug with the Forestry Service in northern
> Minnesota, we stopped after hitting 10 cm of sterility from glacial
> debris.  Perhaps the children's play pit had already penetrated the
> glacial till (which isn't far below the surface in that part of the
> country).
>
> Here are two links with some details, one from the St. Paul
newspaper
> website -
>
> http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/news/local/16450766.htm
>
> and the other from a Twin Cities television station -
>
> http://wcco.com/local/local_story_012071945.html
>
>
> Those of you who are familiar with the upper Midwest in January will
> understand that there is no digging underway now.  I presume there
is
> a flurry of scanning EM and other specialty curation of the lithics
> taking place.  I own some property less than two miles from the dig
> site, and spend much of my summmer up there, so I'll pass along to
> this group any news I hear from the locals that doesn't make the
> mainstream media.
>
> Stan
>

Susan and Allan and all,
   Yes there is maps of leech lake area.It is on one of mine but just
off the map on the one i posted.sorry.

   Allan,there is this sweet water sea i have found covering
minnesota.I believe there have been a few mistakes that have lead
others to believe too that lake huron or superior are the sweetwater
seas. BUT wild rice takes shallow water and it has to be flowing and
fresh. Here in ottertail county,,,is the highest place in the
state,,,and the little shallow hills of the walker and leech lake area
are the stones the little boy dreamed of that were the stepping stones
to the turtle. Here the vikings met the indians and gave them
fire,drums and medi.Here too in ottertail county we have 450 mounds I
have records for that are small, large and huge and have not been
explained or examined.Ten years ago i found these records and started
my search for a viking connection.
    In july i found a high water mark at about 1500 feet,,and then the
shoreline of the largest island( the turtle), and then the sweet water
sea. On the edge of this island i have found a mooring stone and a
earthlodge and a viking harpon tip and a story of a ship in a swamp
where that would have been impossible if not for that sweet water sea.
SO now the pieces of the puzzle are starting to fit!HELP,please!
   A few years ago while interviewing a elder farmer living on the west
shore of this new sea,, Delmar told me that a neighbor,Rubin
arvidson,who died 50 years ago,had kidded him that the first settlers
would take a boat from Delmars farm east ten miles to eagle bend.They
thought he was nuts. Leonard roseinquist claimed he found a ship on
this same shore,,they thought he was a bit goofy.Olaf Ohman found a
stone 30 miles from here and they claimed it was a fake.Holland and
Marion found mooring stones and have spent the last 100 years looking
for ancient vikings here..not to many people believed these guys
either...Archaeology experts will not except that vinland is in
minnesota...but the experts also once claimed the world was flat.
thank you for your imput
steve... thorson

Susan and All Members, Please visit this site and bookmark it to your
favorites. Here I will keep a diary of on-going research, of
discoverys as they are made and many files, photos and maps of the
wset central minnesota area. All coments and questions are welcome and
please help in putting the pieces of this puzzle together.
Please also pass this site on to others interested in viking research
and to others of the alexandria lakes area.
thank you
Steve

http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/AncientVikingsAmerica/

http://www.hilgren.com/

Check out this short video.

http://www.kensingtonrunestone.com/


thanks,steve

Steve and all,

Arrived back in Central Wisconsin this AM, found three emails
announcing the new Ancient Vikings Yahoogroup web site.
Congratulations, Steve. Over the months, I hope to go over
correspondence and newsclippings Marion Dahm sent over a fifteen year
time period, to look for photos or pertinent informationn which could
prove helpful to you and the new web group.

The Ancient Viking site gives you and others a special meetingplace
to intercommunicate any way you choose the apparently continuous
amounts of research data and insights you appear to have in your
research and diligent furthering of the work of our W. Minnesota
friend, Marion Dahm. Marion would have highly approved of your choice
of title. Internet searches will bring considerably more results
with "viking" than they would with "Marion",  which is often
mis-spelled "Marian".

Yesterday during an afternoon Madison, Wisconsin Ancient Earthworks
Society field trip, then evening meeting on the UW campus, DVD clips
from different members included short references and photos of the
Kensington Runestone. I distributed copies of the mid-1800's
Minnesota survey map link w/a few of your insights to a couple of
inquiring Earthworks group members. In my briefcase, I will include
copies of the Ancient Vikings home page when inquiries come up at
various organizational associations I am involved in.

Susan

--- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "hilgren"
<hilgren@...> wrote:
>
> Susan and All Members, Please visit this site and bookmark it to
your
> favorites. Here I will keep a diary of on-going research, of
> discoverys as they are made and many files, photos and maps of the
> wset central minnesota area. All coments and questions are welcome
and
> please help in putting the pieces of this puzzle together.
> Please also pass this site on to others interested in viking
research
> and to others of the alexandria lakes area.
> thank you
> Steve
>
> http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/AncientVikingsAmerica/
>
> http://www.hilgren.com/
>

Ancient Waterways Society members and observers,

A sudden death in the family in Rock Falls/Dixon, Illinois will take
me early this week on a first trip west of Rockford along the Rock
River to the Dixon Mounds.

I hope Cahokia Mounds volunteer, Vince Barrows won't mind that I am
inserting into the Ancient Waterways messages the entire Post that he
wrote to the PreColumbian Inscriptions web site re: the 1874
discovery of the Ellington Stone and skeletal remains of another
person of extremely tall structure found during investigation at a
Rock River mound.  I'd sent an article earlier in the week of a
similar ancient skeletal find along the Chicago River.

As most of you know, the Rock River connects with the Mississippi
River, also flows south of the property along the Aztalan Mounds near
Rock Lake, Wisconsin, down through Rockford, Illinois. If anyone has
further information of interest, interconnecting great finds along
the Rock River to other ancient MIssissippi River tributaries to and
from the ancient Great Lakes, please post to this and other
diffusionist sites listed earlier.  Such things may not solve one
puzzle, but add to the size of an ever-enlargening picture of who it
is we human beings really are....

Susan  ....connecting people and resources along Ancient Great Lakes-
Mississippi Riverways to global ports beyond.
______________________________________
http://ellingtonstone.org/barrowsArcheology.html

Hi, check out this webpage if your interested in inscribed stones that
were found in Rockford, IL.

The only other Chicago Tribune article about them is attached below,
as I have hereby transcribed from the original. Below this is some
interesting research into the meaning of the symbols described on the
Rockford Sun tablet.


Rockford
Special Correspondence of the Tribune
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872- 1963); Mar 16, 1878; ProQuest Historical
Newspapers Chicago Tribune (1849-1985) Pg. 5
ROCKFORD
The Tablet Discovered in 1874 in a Rock-River Mound
Special Correspndence of the Tribune
ROCKFORD, Ill. March 15 – In the spring of 1874, complying with a
suggestion of the Smithsonian Institution, a company, under the
leadership of E.C. Dunn, M.D., started out for the purpose of
Investigating the tumuli, or mounds, that about along the banks of
Rock River. Editors and other prominent citizens took great interest
in the enterprise.

On digging into one, several alternate strata of sand, clay, and loam
indicated that it was an artificial structure. Aside from the
discovery of flint weapons and other small articles, there was found
the complete skeleton of a man,, who must have towered pre-eminent
among his fellows, as, from careful measurement, his height was placed
at seven feet four inches. Not far distant from this mound, in one of
similar construction, a small piece of stone, three and one half
inches long and two inches wide, was discovered. An engraved side of
the stone is surrounded by a series of straight lines placed at an
angle of forty-five degrees to the edges, making the ornamentation
diamonds and half-diamonds. The central and upper portion of the
tablet is occupied by a figure of the sun, overlaid by a figure of the
new moon, -- the surface of the sun being filled in with details of a
human face, and the moon being divided into five sections. Below this
is a character like an elongated T upside down. On the right hand
occur seven symbols, one below the other, -- the upper two being exact
reproductions of the archaic Greek letters Sigma and Upsilon. Below
these two are a cross, a fish, a water-cooler, two parallel marks
cross by two other parallel marks, and a second fish. To the left of
the central figures are letters of the Greek alphabet. These are
semicircular, terminal Sigma, and Delta. Next come a serpent and
lizard and lastly, a mace, or a lighted torch.

Apparently these characters signify nothing of special importance;
but, to the scientist, a world of knowledge will be gleaned therefrom.

Yesterday, Prof. J.K. Hornish, of Keokuk. Iowa, arrived in the city,
and his visit here revives the sensation relating to the discovery of
the above-named tablet. Prof. Hornish has been a scientist of
acknowledged ability for many years past, devoting his time to a
thorough research of the origin of races and languages. He is now
engaged in writing a treatise on the tablet in question, as to the
significance of its characters. In order more fully to establish the
genuineness of the tablet, he as come to make a thorough investigation
of the incidents connected with its discovery. He pronounces the
tablet one of great interest and wonder, having a history equaling, if
not exceeding, that of the great pyramids of Egypt. The characters,
being a combination of language and numbers, relate to no complete
language, but to the first primitive languages, when laws and religion
were founded upon natural science before it merged into Phallicism.
The Professor claims he has found fragments of characters, but never
found them before in their totality. He gives his ideas concerning
the tablet in brief as follows: Creation and the essyle of creation
are held in equated adjustment by the sun, supplemented by the moon as
a notator of measure, in the ratio of the sacred cubit 25, or its
square root 5. The above are the two words "Kad" and "Sveth," on
either side of the sun. The next two words are "Liptcha" and "Moon.",
meaning life, or that which produces life, are held in perpendicular
adjustment. "Liptcha" is the primitive from which we draw our word
"Life" and "Moyan" gives us moon; moneta, money; and similar ideas
which involve organic form, carrying the volume of the meaning in the
life, or stamps. Twelve letters and four numbers also equate in
perfect geometrical relation, and prove the symbolized meanings.
Prof. Hornish says the tablet may originally have come from Asia.
Whether found in the mound above described or not, its genuineness he
does not doubt. His theories will undoubtedly cause considerable
discussion regarding the purposes and origin of these earthworks. He
demonstrates his ideas on purely geometrical rules and principles –
simple, yet conclusive.
_____

HORNISH, JOSEPH K., attorney at law; born in Westmoreland Co., Penn.;
came to Keokuk in October, 1850; since 1853, he has been prominently
identified with the organization and construction of the railroads of
this vicinity; he has also taken an active interest in politics; was a
War Democrat; has been a candidate for Congress in this district,
running far ahead of his ticket at the time.

Indo-European Roots
Kad - To fall. Oldest form * ad-, becoming *kad- in centum languages.
cadaver, cadence, cadent, caducous, cascade, case1, casual, casualty,
casuist, chance, chute; accident, decay, deciduous, escheat, incident,
occasion, occident, recidivism, from Latin cadere, to fall, die.
(Pokorny 1. ad- 516.)

leip- To stick, adhere; fat.
Derivatives include life and liver1.
1. life, lively, from Old English l f, life (< "continuance"), from
Germanic *l bam. 2a. live1, from Old English lifian, libban, to live;
b. lebensraum, from Old High German leb n, to live. Both a and b from
Germanic *lib n. 3a. leave1, from Old English l fan, to leave, have
remaining; b. delay, relay, from Old French laier, to leave, from
Frankish *laibjan. Both a and b from o-grade Germanic causative
*-laibjan. 4. liver1, from Old English lifer, liver (formerly believed
to be the blood-producing organ), from Germanic *libr . 5. Zero-grade
form *lip-. lipo-, from Greek lipos, fat. 6. Variant form * leibh-.
aliphatic; synalepha, from Greek aleiphein, to anoint with oil.
(Pokorny 1. leip- 670.)

tek- To beget, give birth to. 1. Suffixed form *tek-no-, child. thane,
from Old English thegn, freeman, nobleman, military vassal, warrior,
from Germanic *thegnaz, boy, man, servant, warrior. 2. Suffixed
o-grade form *tok-o-. oxytocic, polytocous, tocology, from Greek
tokos, birth. (Pokorny 1. tek- 1057.)


See PreColumbian Inscriptions Message # 9583
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Precolumbian_Inscriptions/
(Click Messages, then scroll to Post # 9583)

Nice to hear from you. I am honored that you have shared my interest
in these important artifacts with the Ancient Waterways Society group.
  I have been researching these interesting relics of the ancient
inhabitants of this country for a long time and so far have found
information about approximately 12,000 tablets.  I am an enthusiast
about this country's past, and recommend the recent 2004 publication
about the Hohokam Tablets by Devin Alan White. The tablets numbered
701 and  160 depict interesting legends that probably correlate with
tribal legends.

Also interesting is the Kassly-Schaefer tablet (see
http://lithiccastinglab.com/gallery-pages/tabletssandstonebirdman.htm
, which went on display on January 12, 2007 at the Cahokia Mounds
Interpretive Center. Sadly, the pottery head that was found directly
adjacent to the tablet and was obviously related to the find was
dismissed by Site Management Bill Iseminger, who shamefully named the
ancient artifact "Dr. Spock!" before rejecting the opportunity to
display both pieces together, selecting only the tablet for display.
http://lithiccastinglab.com/gallery-pages/clayheadkasslypage1.htm


Seems that there are common inscriptions dealing with legends and
stories inscribed into the stones.  I am familiar with the groups that
you spoke of, and also would like to get involved with their studies.
I have been reseraching the symbolism on the stones. At least three
stones have been found at Cahokia Mounds that are nearly identical to
the one discussed here: http://www.nsf.gov/od/lpa/news/02/pr0202.htm

Unfortunately, I am no longer a volunteer at Cahokia Mounds, because
after writing a letter to the Belleville News Democrat about the
damage to the mounds being caused by illegal ATV 4-wheeler usage, I
found that Site Management abhorrently opposed my effort to write
letters to inform the Illinois government politicians about the
problem as being. I believe that the usage of ATV traffic on the
mounds is unacceptable. Site management at Cahokia are not in favor of
any possibility of volunteer patrolling the site, fund raising, or any
other kind of preservation. It is disturbing to hear how quickly they
disregard any effort to learn about the past of the country and
dismiss anything as controversial that is not what they have been saying.

Look forward to further discussion with you.
Thanks and best regards;
Vince Barrows

Nice to hear from you. I am honored that you have shared my interest
in these important artifacts with the Ancient Waterways Society group.
I have been researching these interesting relics of the ancient
inhabitants of this country for a long time and so far have found
information about approximately 12,000 tablets. I am an enthusiast
about this country's past, and recommend the recent 2004 publication
about the Hohokam Tablets by Devin Alan White. The tablets numbered
701 and 160 depict interesting legends that probably correlate with
tribal legends.

Also interesting is the Kassly-Schaefer tablet (see
http://lithiccastinglab.com/gallery-pages/tabletssandstonebirdman.htm
, which went on display on January 12, 2007 at the Cahokia Mounds
Interpretive Center. Sadly, the pottery head that was found directly
adjacent to the tablet and was obviously related to the find was
dismissed by Site Management Bill Iseminger, who shamefully named the
ancient artifact "Dr. Spock!" before rejecting the opportunity to
display both pieces together, selecting only the tablet for display.
http://lithiccastinglab.com/gallery-pages/clayheadkasslypage1.htm

Seems that there are common inscriptions dealing with legends and
stories inscribed into the stones. I am familiar with the groups that
you spoke of, and also would like to get involved with their studies.
I have been reseraching the symbolism on the stones. At least three
stones have been found at Cahokia Mounds that are nearly identical to
the one discussed here: http://www.nsf.gov/od/lpa/news/02/pr0202.htm

Unfortunately, I am no longer a volunteer at Cahokia Mounds, because
after writing a letter to the Belleville News Democrat about the
damage to the mounds being caused by illegal ATV 4-wheeler usage, I
found that Site Management abhorrently opposed my effort to write
letters to inform the Illinois government politicians about the
problem as being. I believe that the usage of ATV traffic on the
mounds is unacceptable. Site management at Cahokia are not in favor of
any possibility of volunteer patrolling the site, fund raising, or any
other kind of preservation. It is disturbing to hear how quickly they
disregard any effort to learn about the past of the country and
dismiss anything as controversial that is not what they have been saying.

Look forward to further discussion with you.
Thanks and best regards;
Vince Barrows

Welcome to the group Jon, and Vince,

Vince, I knew awhile back some of the fine work you were doing as a
volunteer and preservationist at Cahokia. It is that center's loss,
including researchers and visitors, that you will no longer be
directly involved at that site. Reading your post, it is clear your
research there, continues. I know little of Cahokia, was in awe of
the work you are doing, look forward to learning more here and via
PreColumbian Inscriptions posts where many of us at various web
groups first became acquainted with each other.

Because of courageous preservationist efforts and fine research, you
would be a fine addition to the Ancient American Artifact
Preservation Foundation. I scanned/emailed your fine list of tablets
and disks to several people: Ancient American/May, Hoffman, Rydholm,
AAAPF/Judy Johnson. I suggest also the idea of a 2008 or 2009 AAAPF
conference near Cahokia with the assist of those already mentioned,
included your name as possible speaker and/or conference displayer in
lieu of your comprehensive experience with Cahokia and unique
collection.

Also hopoing the Ancient Earthworks Society's activities and inter-
group activities will increase, that they will get involved with
AAAPF and other groups for the 2007 AAAPF/Thor conference near Ft.
Ancient, Ohio mounds (and suggested one at Cahokia). I am trying to
fire up the Ancient Earthworks Society as to how much impact a group
of that name and history can have in furthering the work so many of
you are doing individually. President Tom Solberg remarked too how
interrelated are ancient earthworks with ancient waterways, as are
the founding ideas behind both societies, their members, and those
who visit the meetings and web sites....

Vince, it is good to see you included your list of tablets on message
boards of many groups. Such posts not only interconnect specialty
groups, but moreso, act as resource links which become as permanent
as the sites to which they are linked. Thus, the more sites, the
longer lasting. Mike White from PreColumbian Inscriptions (also, this
site, the Thor group, Ancient Vikings, and many others)is probably
unparalleled in keenness of insights, almost photographic recall of
data, and dedication of hours devoted to the work. Even now from a
remote area of China. The PreColumbIan Inscriptions and posts will be
around as long as he is.  And, many of us are continuously running
prints of posts and lists all over the globe as I have been doing
with Vince's list, the Ancient Vikings sight, all the sites mentioned
earlier.

The Ancient Waterways Society intends not to duplicate other sites.
Please continue to post upcoming meetings, conferences which relate,
such as the Ancient Earthworks Society meeting MinnesotaStan posted
to this group long in advance. It provided time to help set up an
afternoon field trip and gathering at the interesting home of AES
prsident Tom Solberg. Many of us from northern and central areas of
the Midwest attended the meeting on the UW Madison campus, earlier
visited remnants of old Native manitou stones w/their corresponding
directional  alignments; the site continues to be further urbanized
by condominius development. The integrity of the site was destroyed
long ago by carriers of the narrower view of history, those who fail
to give value to those who lived and traded within the ancient
Americas.

My personal interest is as an interconnector of people and resources
in this work, and I partially do so by way of the Internet, emailing,
and passing on parts of letters, links, full lists such as Vince's.
Preference is traveling across ancient waterways to meetings, distant
conferences, trying to expand the work of you with whom I am aligned,
believing we can make a difference in actually taking advances in
science and the humanities and APPLYING more correct visions of who
we human beings are. One must first find universals and how closely
we are or have been aligned--beyond borders--in the world.

In that sense, I am a diffusionist without borders, prefer to
travel distances along ancient waterways making interconnections. I
find things work best when individuals and representatives of various
groups can get personally elbow to elbow with each other at
centralized areas of the continent at least one or more times a year.
In settings as close to Nature as possible, keeping costs down for
those of simple means, helping to get people and groups comfortably
talking together, sharing good food around campfire or hearth. I also
help spread word of related opportunities for people and groups to
bring data together, work collaboratively in libraries and labs in
furthering sound scientific research.

I am honored to be acquainted already with what I beieve are hundreds
of people contributing to a much needed renaissance of the sciences
and arts. An exponential rise of an even greater science and
application of that science across the globe.

My applause to all of you researchers involved in this work..

M. Susan English
http://hometown.aol.com/suzenglish/myhomepage/profile.html

  --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Vince"
v_barrows@...> wrote:

Nice to hear from you. I am honored that you have shared my interest
in these important artifacts with the Ancient Waterways Society
group.
I have been researching these interesting relics of the ancient
inhabitants of this country for a long time and so far have found
information about approximately 12,000 tablets.  I am an enthusiast
about this country's past, and recommend the recent 2004 publication
about the Hohokam Tablets by Devin Alan White. The tablets numbered
701 and  160 depict interesting legends that probably correlate with
tribal legends.

Also interesting is the Kassly-Schaefer tablet
(see http://lithiccastinglab.com/gallery-
pages/tabletssandstonebirdman.htm
, which went on display on January 12, 2007 at the Cahokia Mounds
Interpretive Center. Sadly, the pottery head that was found directly
adjacent to the tablet and was obviously related to the find was
dismissed by Site Management Bill Iseminger, who shamefully named
the ancient artifact "Dr. Spock!" before rejecting the opportunity to
display both pieces together, selecting only the tablet for display.
http://lithiccastinglab.com/gallery-pages/clayheadkasslypage1.htm

Seems that there are common inscriptions dealing with legends and
stories inscribed into the stones.  I am familiar with the groups
that you spoke of, and also would like to get involved with their
studies.

I have been reseraching the symbolism on the stones. At least three
stones have been found at Cahokia Mounds that are nearly identical
to the one discussed here:
http://www.nsf.gov/od/lpa/news/02/pr0202.htm

Unfortunately, I am no longer a volunteer at Cahokia Mounds, because
after writing a letter to the Belleville News Democrat about the
damage to the mounds being caused by illegal ATV 4-wheeler usage, I
found that Site Management abhorrently opposed my effort to write
letters to inform the Illinois government politicians about the
problem as being. I believe that the usage of ATV traffic on the
mounds is unacceptable. Site management at Cahokia are not in favor
of any possibility of volunteer patrolling the site, fund raising, or
any other kind of preservation. It is disturbing to hear how quickly
they disregard any effort to learn about the past of the country and
dismiss anything as controversial that is not what they have been
saying.

Look forward to further discussion with you.
Thanks and best regards;
Vince Barrows

Ancient Waterways,

Funeral and family actitivies out of town last week prevented
computer access. En route, followed the Rock River from Aztalan
mounds east of Madison, southward into Illinois past areas of deep
ravines and sedimentary cliffsides to Dixon and westward to the
Mississippi River. Got me to thinking...

Stepped back from time to time to look at remnants of very ancient
riverbanks and shorelines. Kept noting visible evidence of drastic
geographical changes in terrain and that major water routes carried
people for tens of millinnea. Well before the post-glacial historic
peoples, traders, settles described on roadside markers and within
museums along the route. There are few references to anything beyond
1000-2000 years bp at a time now when many of us are looking for
larger pictures of life, wiser, healthier human understandings more
conducive to our design and the natural environment. Who were the
various peoples who traveled through the waterways of the world along
shorelines, banks, settlement sites at varing elevation, climatic and
geographical conditions differing greatly from what we know of today?
One needs to expand ones mind and world-view to continually encompass
such considerations...

Diffusion-minded researchers are becoming many delving deeply into
the very ancient past, in broad-field fashion across the span of
academic fields. In so doing, are even more scientific "considering
possibilities" in scope re: the 'waves upon waves' of ancient
aboriginal peoples and transcontinental seafaring visitors
that entered the Americas from all directions, coursed by water
routes through the central areas of the continent. Created earthen
mounds and settlements near riverbanks, sacred sites on vortexes and
moutaintops. If we go back far enough, I suggest many cultures
engaged relatively peacefully, simply, abundantly, and intelligently
within the bounty of Nature, altered it little, left few traces. What
physical evidence was left: remains buried in sand/volcanic
sediment/sea; was erased by deluge and time. And, another
consideration: evidence and insights will lie undiscovered until we
see, sense more comprehensively and intimately between the worlds and
dimensions.

I had a sense of this studying 'universals' within the natural order,
and the mathematics indicated in ancient designs, cave art, and
inscriptions. Culture runs akin to the way groups and larger
societies express and organize their thoughts though such means as
art, language, social arrangement. The mathematics, geometric, and
numerical arrangements people use are woven into languaging and
culture from their beliefs, ideas. One sees expressions of this in
geometric and linear inscriptions of many peoples of ancient times.
The ways they viewed the world, lived within the natural order
differed drastically from those of us in modern, high tech societies,
evidentent also in the languaging and mathematics we use and apply in
our technicalogically-oriented societies. Professional & academic
researchers are not alone in continuing to use so called 'advanced',
but linear understandings and current mathematics of our 'mental
ordering' to try to comprehend and value peoples of ancient times.

Long periods in nature trying to align more 'like the ancients', I
sought examples of a mathematics or science which clearly aligns with
the natural order of life and shows "universals" which transcend the
tests of time and culture. Which parallel markings, inscriptions, art
left by people long ago tuned to the arrangment and patterns of the
natural order. A mathematics I found closest to this has many names:
The Golden Mean/Triangle, Phi, pythagorean math..showing all things
interrelated, 'as above, so below'... A few Native friends,
naturalists, & environmentalists think similarly to the mental
ordering above, seem to operate from both sides of their brains and
live between the worlds of various societies.

I also find interesting articles and posts from some of the world's
finest mathematicians via the Great Pyramic of Giza Research
Association web site. See: http://www.gizapyramid.com/

Scroll down to the list of Board members, many of whom are among the
world's foremost researchers, often in the world media---in
the US: the National Geographic station, PBS, Nova, History Channel,
etc. Most are clearly 'diffusionist' within their range of
knowledge and insight. Yet have confidence and wisdom ample enough to
know that one need not be a 'diffusionist" in exclusion nor
opposition to other kinds of views. Wouldn't be scientific to do so,
anyway. On the same home page, click "Messages" and one can
read a variety of discussions going on at one time.  Moderator, Dr.
John Salvo removes old posts at certain points every year or so.  Not
sure what happens to those from years ago, but hopefully are on a
data base.

Thanks to Ohio resident Pam Giese, a member of Ancient Waterways and
the other sites mentioned earlier. Pam is responsible for introducing
several of us to the fun World Explorers Club spring conferences.
Through Pam, many are affiliated with the Giza Pyramid Board of
Directors, most of whom are not conntected with the World Explorers
Club but WEX clubhouses, bookstores, and conferences are run
independently in nearly a dozen cities around the world (Canada,
Peru, Denver, Amsterdam, England, are a few).

Oftentimes  attendees of various conferences tell of their
experiences with caves along ancient post-glacial runoffs and rivers,
bring artifacts, are part of preservation groups for various
earthwork and sacred sites. Would be interesting to engage informally
in discussions around Cahokia/St. Louis, also along waterways of the
eastern S. Illinois border.

Finds continue around the world along the highest elevations of
existing terrain, settlement sites and buriel grounds of even more
ancient peoples. Perhaps many stayed wisely 'inter-tribal'
and 'global', particularly if there was a continuous flow of sea-
faring people to and from their ports and shores where people found
trade and other interests in common. Waterways left openly accessible
to all passing through: "international waters" brought forth a
continuous diffusion of cultures, ideas, genes...

It is difficult to divide, hate, and think in heirarchal terms
of: "advanced peoples", "savages", or to believe in "'races' of low
intellect" when people are economically, socially, and genetially
inter-related.  And look at what DNA evidence is discovering...

Conditions within the present seem to be calling for a cooperative re-
write of the past and wise, intra-academic, globally-oriented
community rather than egoistic competitiveness among lay and
professional researchers. Action rather than merely adding further to
the mountains and decades of databanks. It is my personal hope wisdom
among elders will bring about further sharing and "undoing" of some
of history's heinous errors. The old addage 'history tends to repeat
itself' may hold some truth, but not of necessity where 'history' has
been drastically in error.  Where violent disregard of groups of
peoples and cultures have occurred, we need to re-think historical
assumptions and greatly undo their accompanying world views. Then
readily put INTO ACTION such corrections into our social order. The
times are changing and many seem to be opening the boundaries of
their minds to new insights.

Susan

http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/AncientVikingsAmerica/


Welcome home Susan and I see william over at thor just got home from
his cruise too. It would be nice to here from you and please check the
new medicine stone and recient posts.
thanks
steve