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  • Members: 104
  • Category: Archaeology
  • Founded: Nov 18, 2004
  • Language: English
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#599 From: "Susan" <beldingenglish@...>
Date: Tue Aug 5, 2008 6:23 pm
Subject: The Atlantic Conference Aug 15-17, 2008 Nova Scotia
beldingenglish
Send Email Send Email
 
THE ATLANTIC CONFERENCE
THE DEFINITIVE GATHERING
OF WORLD EXPERTS
ON THE POSSIBILITY OF
EARLY TRANS-ATLANTIC CONTACT


August 15th-17th, 2008.
Saint Mary's University
Halifax, Nova Scotia
http://www.atlanticconference.org/
 
Please click into the list of professional and avocational Speakers, the Our Aims of the global organization...working closely with the international Clan Sinclair, First Nation, Mi'kmaq, Anishinaabe tribe, and other groups.
 
I shall be assisting the organizers throughout the excellent 3 day conference and five days of post-confernce tours of Nova Scotia, Oak Island and other ancient sites.  Heavily involved with the conference are many others you might know from AAPS,  Ancient American, THOR. Ancient Waterways gatherings,  and other groups: Lee & Joy Pennington (filming a documentary), Rick & Pat Osman/Oopa Loopa Cafe (sponsoring),  Wayne May & staff/Ancient American Magazine (sponsoring), Scott Wolter (a main speaker), Zena Halperen from Long Island, we are hoping William Smith (THOR), possibly Char Bruns (THOR, AAPS) of Ottawa/Duluth. And many from NEARA and other related groups.  Most of us plan to stay over four or five days for the post-conference tours with Nova Scotian (& Ancient Waterways Society member) Terry Deveau: http://www.atlanticconference.org/AtlanticConference-2/PostSchedule.htm
 
The conference is still not filled up, the organizers set up the option of an inexpensive $25/day entry fee to hear conference speakers,  so I do hope some of you may be able to attend.
 
I reserved a dorm room at St. Mary's for $46/night which includes tax and breakfast, then will look to share cheap lodging with others for the next five days because the campus closes after Sunday.  All of the AAPS members assisting with the international Atlantic Conference are attending and will be actively involved with the AAPS/AAAPF conference October 23-26 in Marquette, Michigan. The AAPS Conference '08 web site once again is: http://www.aaapf.org/scripts/prodview.asp?idProduct=38
 
Those of you unable to attend the Atlantic Conference at St. Mary's University, we will have plenty of photos and experiences to share at the Marquette MI conference in Octover.
 
Hope to see  some of you others there, too.  Othewise, keep this fine organization in mind for their next conference.
 
Cordially,
 
M. Susan English
Ancient Waterways Society
....connecting people and resources along ancient Great Lakes-Mississippi Riverways to global port beyond,
helping us rediscover who we human beings really are.
 

#601 From: "minnesotastan" <minnesotastan@...>
Date: Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:17 pm
Subject: Susquehanna River Archaeological Center
minnesotastan
Send Email Send Email
 
Thanks to Ted Sojka for sending me the link to the SRA Center.  I've
added the link to our "links" center (see the left sidebar) in the
"Mound Builders" folder.

Their website goes to a blog that is updated periodically.  It has
some content that Ancient Waterways members might appreciate.

Stan

#602 From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:41 am
Subject: Re: diamond dot symbol
v_barrows
Send Email Send Email
 
Ted Sojka;
What a facinating question and several examples are shown in the following compilation of diamond dot tribal symbolism, located at the following link. http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/diamond%20dot/

As shown by Frank Speck in the Delaware Indian Big House Ceremony , the diamond dot was used as a style of Face Paintings worn by men taking part in social dances, and only permitted for use by the drummers in the Big House Ceremony. These are commonly known as warrior's or fancy dress paintings.

The second photo is a hohokam palette with the diamond crosshatching symbol covering one side, while the other side has a symbol of a decapitated hourglass shaped human torso falling from the sky, a winged four legged kneeling animal, and two other figures of perhaps a turtle and human torso? The circle beneath the top figure appears to be a dot for an oracle head with single line drawn for the mouth.

The third is a ferocious catlinite engraving from the Bastian site. Three diamonds adorn the lower left hand corner at varying angles. A circular sun image radiates from the central eye of the creature

Next is an Osage dark Catlinite pipe with a carved diamond dot shape circling around the pipe. The stem of the pipe would connect with the center of the diamond dot shape. Smoking ceremonies must have been powerful.

Next is a piece of pottery adorned with diamond and circular shaped fabric impression. This tripple plaited fabric impression from a salt pan was found south of Valmeyer, Illinois nearby Cahokia Mounds.

Last is a hohokam palette that is shaped like a diamond with numerous dots in the center.

My research indicates that the diamond with a dot in the center is highly symbolic of the eagle eye. I have read of a bespeckled serpent scale that is to represent Mu Aquila surrounding by Aquila; which means that is very many eagles surrounded by the great eagle.

Another layer of symbolism can be seen in the diamond as the shape of the mounds that form Cahokia Mounds with the central dot that may represent Monks Mound.

Best Regards;
Vince


.



--- On Mon, 8/11/08, Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...> wrote:
From: Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...>
Subject: diamond dot
To: "Vincent Barrows" <v_barrows@...>
Date: Monday, August 11, 2008, 10:07 AM

I remember climbing the 7 story bird mound at Poverty Point years ago,  
and for so early a time period it was an amazing effort to buiid, and
the village circles that are near it are even more astounding. If
done before agriculture as claimed, they had a mission for a hunter/
gathered society, equivalent to building a French cathedral. I am a
retired art teacher and took photos for R. Clark Mallum, who was an
archeologist who worked at Effigy Mounds National Monument near here
in NE Iowa.

What do you know of the diamond with dot or slash pattern and its
relation to the burial society or death cult , as well as the
connection to cahokia?

ted

PS Thanks so much for the information you sent today.




#603 From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:54 am
Subject: Re: Re: diamond dot symbol
v_barrows
Send Email Send Email
 
According to Ophiliolatrea -

Horapollo, referring to the serpent symbol, says of it:---"When the Egyptians would represent the Universe they delineate a serpent bespeckled with variegated scales, devouring its own tail, the scales intimating the stars in the Universe. The animal is extremely heavy, as is the earth, and extremely slippery like the water, moreover, it every year puts off its old age with its skin, as in the Universe the annual period effects a corresponding change and becomes renovated, and the making use of its own body for food implies that all things whatever, which are generated by divine providence in the world, undergo a corruption into them again."

--- On Wed, 8/13/08, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...> wrote:
From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: diamond dot symbol
To: "Ted Sojka" <tedsojka@...>
Cc: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, August 13, 2008, 12:41 AM

Ted Sojka;
What a facinating question and several examples are shown in the following compilation of diamond dot tribal symbolism, located at the following link. http://s243. photobucket. com/albums/ ff280/Marburg72/ diamond%20dot/

As shown by Frank Speck in the Delaware Indian Big House Ceremony , the diamond dot was used as a style of Face Paintings worn by men taking part in social dances, and only permitted for use by the drummers in the Big House Ceremony. These are commonly known as warrior's or fancy dress paintings.

The second photo is a hohokam palette with the diamond crosshatching symbol covering one side, while the other side has a symbol of a decapitated hourglass shaped human torso falling from the sky, a winged four legged kneeling animal, and two other figures of perhaps a turtle and human torso? The circle beneath the top figure appears to be a dot for an oracle head with single line drawn for the mouth.

The third is a ferocious catlinite engraving from the Bastian site. Three diamonds adorn the lower left hand corner at varying angles. A circular sun image radiates from the central eye of the creature

Next is an Osage dark Catlinite pipe with a carved diamond dot shape circling around the pipe. The stem of the pipe would connect with the center of the diamond dot shape. Smoking ceremonies must have been powerful.

Next is a piece of pottery adorned with diamond and circular shaped fabric impression. This tripple plaited fabric impression from a salt pan was found south of Valmeyer, Illinois nearby Cahokia Mounds.

Last is a hohokam palette that is shaped like a diamond with numerous dots in the center.

My research indicates that the diamond with a dot in the center is highly symbolic of the eagle eye. I have read of a bespeckled serpent scale that is to represent Mu Aquila surrounding by Aquila; which means that is very many eagles surrounded by the great eagle.

Another layer of symbolism can be seen in the diamond as the shape of the mounds that form Cahokia Mounds with the central dot that may represent Monks Mound.

Best Regards;
Vince


.



--- On Mon, 8/11/08, Ted Sojka <tedsojka@mchsi. com> wrote:
From: Ted Sojka <tedsojka@mchsi. com>
Subject: diamond dot
To: "Vincent Barrows" <v_barrows@yahoo. com>
Date: Monday, August 11, 2008, 10:07 AM

I remember climbing the 7 story bird mound at Poverty Point years ago,  
and for so early a time period it was an amazing effort to buiid, and
the village circles that are near it are even more astounding.
If
done before agriculture as claimed, they had a mission for a hunter/
gathered society, equivalent to building a French cathedral. I am a
retired art teacher and took photos for R. Clark Mallum, who was an
archeologist who worked at Effigy Mounds National Monument near here
in NE Iowa.

What do you know of the diamond with dot or slash pattern and its
relation to the burial society or death cult , as well as the
connection to cahokia?

ted

PS Thanks so much for the information you sent today.





#604 From: "Susan" <beldingenglish@...>
Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:24 pm
Subject: Ancient Waterways of Iowa area photos [Ted Sojka]
beldingenglish
Send Email Send Email
 

Ancient Waterways Society friends,

Thanks for recent letters, Stan, Vince, Chris, etc. Will hope for Wireless service in Nova Scotia to reply.  I am home less than a day from a conference in Keweenaw, my '92 Ford broke down in the Porcupine Mts., I was on the road across from an aboriginal copper mining pit and a bear started circling me wanting what I was eating. Thank goodness an approaching warden's truck deterred him but was told next time I should toss the food away from me. 

Am leaving later today for Halifax to help the organizers with the Nova Scotia Atlantic Conference, a first trip to a place I have always dreamed of seeing.

I have been so busy I was remiss in not sending this very thoughtful, interesting letter very relevant to our site, from an Iowan who emailed me about possible future Ancient Waterways Society gatherings or field trips.   I do hope Ted Sojka's letter, photos, and his beautifully illustrated drawing comes through in this post.  If not, I will delete it and ask Ted to put it in personally.

With so many other related, highly active groups out there, Ted may not feel the need to join this group but it is hope he will be among the many who, as non-members, frequentlyfollow our posts.  Ted also stated in earlier letters that he shares photos but not locations, so as to protect the sites.  He asked that the photos not be used without his permission nor reproduced.

Thank you, Ted.

Susan

"...This may have been the piece you asked about.  The first image I cannot remember the source, though I think it from a Iowa archeology department poster or from Effigy Mounds National Monument web site.  
http://www.iowageology.org/gb70/page_1.htm  There is also some good information if you forward this site along to any of the groups. [Ted Sojka of Iowa]

Susan. Sorry I was not able to attend the Ancient Earthworks Society.  I have been affiliated with the Native Earthworks Preservation group for several years, and I have been working for several archeologists as a photographer and artist for forty years in Northeast Iowa.   

Ancient Waterways is of course a natural to go with the mounds as the rivers connect all the sites and were the highways for thousands of years before other forms of travel was possible. 

The Prairie in the photos hosted not only many thousands of years of native gatherings, but also many who were to become presidents of this country when this was the Western frontier.
Abraham Lincoln came during the Black Hawk War,as well as Jefferson Davis, who was in charge of the lumber mill which made the materials for several of the forts in the area.  Zachary Taylor and Winfield Scot also were stationed in the area.   General Atkinson left his name on forts in Iowa and Wisconsin.

But for the first nation it was the main highway from the great lakes to the Father of Waters, and points South.    The Cahokians came upriver to trade and build Aztalan, and the first walled trading places on the river.  The first Walmart in Allamakee County which has been explored in several digs, contained Obsidian from Yellowstone, copper from the Upper Peninsula, amd conch shell from the Gulf of Mexico.   A large rim shard that probably contained seed for trade was found to have been made near St. Louis from the clay it was made of and the designs it was decorated with.  

Send me more information about the ancient waterways.
Thanks.
Ted Sojka
Art Educators of Iowa

(see next post for Ted's photos and drawing)

#605 From: "Susan" <beldingenglish@...>
Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:26 pm
Subject: Re: Ancient Waterways of Iowa area photos [Ted Sojka]
beldingenglish
Send Email Send Email
 


Allamakee County Iowa

 


Across the river from the confluence of the Wisconsin and Mississippi Rivers.


Pike's Bluff now called Pikes Peak State Park in Iowa.

 


The hill that is Wyalusing State Park near Prairie du Chien.
One of a series of drawings that I did for the Winneshiek County Nature Center, called the people who once lived here.   
--- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan" <beldingenglish@...> wrote:
>
>
> Ancient Waterways Society friends,
>
> Thanks for recent letters, Stan, Vince, Chris, etc. Will hope for
> Wireless service in Nova Scotia to reply. I am home less than a day
> from a conference in Keweenaw, my '92 Ford broke down in the Porcupine
> Mts., I was on the road across from an aboriginal copper mining pit and
> a bear started circling me wanting what I was eating. Thank goodness an
> approaching warden's truck deterred him but was told next time I should
> toss the food away from me.
>
> Am leaving later today for Halifax to help the organizers with the Nova
> Scotia Atlantic Conference, a first trip to a place I have always
> dreamed of seeing.
>
> I have been so busy I was remiss in not sending this very thoughtful,
> interesting letter very relevant to our site, from an Iowan who emailed
> me about possible future Ancient Waterways Society gatherings or field
> trips. I do hope Ted Sojka's letter, photos, and his beautifully
> illustrated drawing comes through in this post. If not, I will delete
> it and ask Ted to put it in personally.
>
> With so many other related, highly active groups out there, Ted may not
> feel the need to join this group but it is hope he will be among the
> many who, as non-members, frequentlyfollow our posts. Ted also stated
> in earlier letters that he shares photos but not locations, so as to
> protect the sites. He asked that the photos not be used without his
> permission nor reproduced.
>
> Thank you, Ted.
>
> Susan
>
> "...This may have been the piece you asked about. The first image I
> cannot remember the source, though I think it from a Iowa archeology
> department poster or from Effigy Mounds National Monument web site.
> http://www.iowageology.org/gb70/page_1.htm
> <http://www.iowageology.org/gb70/page_1.htm> There is also some good
> information if you forward this site along to any of the groups. [Ted
> Sojka of Iowa]
>
> Susan. Sorry I was not able to attend the Ancient Earthworks Society. I
> have been affiliated with the Native Earthworks Preservation group for
> several years, and I have been working for several archeologists as a
> photographer and artist for forty years in Northeast Iowa.
> Ancient Waterways is of course a natural to go with the mounds as the
> rivers connect all the sites and were the highways for thousands of
> years before other forms of travel was possible.
> The Prairie in the photos hosted not only many thousands of years of
> native gatherings, but also many who were to become presidents of this
> country when this was the Western frontier. Abraham Lincoln came during
> the Black Hawk War,as well as Jefferson Davis, who was in charge of the
> lumber mill which made the materials for several of the forts in the
> area. Zachary Taylor and Winfield Scot also were stationed in the area.
> General Atkinson left his name on forts in Iowa and Wisconsin.
> But for the first nation it was the main highway from the great lakes to
> the Father of Waters, and points South. The Cahokians came upriver to
> trade and build Aztalan, and the first walled trading places on the
> river. The first Walmart in Allamakee County which has been explored in
> several digs, contained Obsidian from Yellowstone, copper from the Upper
> Peninsula, amd conch shell from the Gulf of Mexico. A large rim shard
> that probably contained seed for trade was found to have been made near
> St. Louis from the clay it was made of and the designs it was decorated
> with.
> Send me more information about the ancient waterways. Thanks. Ted Sojka
> Art Educators of Iowa
> (see next post for Ted's photos and drawing)
>

#606 From: "Susan" <beldingenglish@...>
Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:15 pm
Subject: Atlantic Conference Update
beldingenglish
Send Email Send Email
 

In the article to follow, there is an excellent "diffusionist" statement and definition in this more recent update from the Atlantic Conference.  Native peoples, politicians, researchers, educators, already working closely and equally together with the international Sinclair/St. Clair clan and highly respected memb[uers of the scientific community are drawing public notice.  Many  from around the world are watching this young group of organizers put on what looks to be a remarkable multiple-disciplinary assemblage of backgrounds from the physical/quantum, and social sciences.  Scientists, avocational researchers, lay persons and people of diverse international cultures/ideas are considering possibilities that there was frequent cooperative, and peaceful ancient contact and two way cross-Atlantic diffusion between North Americn indiginious peoples, 'Europeans' and others .

Member from of Friends of this site w$ho attended the 'Ancient Waterways Society'  weekend gathering last May along Lake Superior are already en route for Nova Scotia to assist with, sponsor,  or speak at the Atlantic Conference are: Rick and Pat Osman, Lee and Joy Pennington, Wayne May and Ancient American staff, geologist Scott Wolter, possibly William Smith, myself and others I am not aware of. 

Hope some of you might be able to attend or be involved with the next Atlantic Conference next year.

I received a note from Steve St. Clair today: not intending to make money on the event and wishing to make it possible for anyone interested to attend who can get there, there is a further reduction to a $25 fee for the entire conference, which includes one lunch.  My kind of people.

Another new presenter will be Speaker of the House of Commons (see below plus Speakers)

I may blog updates from the confernce.  Rick Osman will be hosting the Oopa Loopa Cafe internet radio directly from the floor live tomorrow evening, so please fewel free to call in and be a part of the conference.

Susan

  Home     Schedule     Speakers     Poster Competition     Travel     Register     Our Aims     About Us     Contact        

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASEe

The Hon. Peter Milliken, Speaker of the House of Commons and M.P. for Kingston and the Islands to Address the Atlantic Conference on August 16th at Saint Mary's University, Halifax, NS.

The Hon. Peter Milliken is scheduled to address the Atlantic Conference on Saturday, August 16th.  He will be among scientists and researchers exploring theories that point to ancient contact between indigenous peoples of North America and early Europeans.

Presented as the definitive gathering of world experts on the possibility of early trans-Atlantic contact, the Atlantic Conference will take place on August 16th & 17th at Saint Mary's University in Halifax, Nova Scotia.  Linguists, Indigenous experts, Archaeologists, Cartographers, DNA experts and thought leaders from many differing fields will gather to share their recent work, their views regarding early trans-Atlantic contact between peoples of the Americas with those of Europe, Africa and the Middle East.

Since the 1933 discovery of a flint spearhead unearthed at Clovis, New Mexico, scientists, academics and just about everyone else became entrenched in the idea that North Americans arrived on this continent exclusively via the Bering Straight land bridge. The mammoth skeleton that lay beside the Clovis point was carbon-dated to 11,500 years ago and there seemed to be no other find that pointed to older human habitation in North America. This theory became so accepted that archaeologists stopped looking for older artifacts.

But, all along, our native friends have told a different story. They speak of many waves of migration between the peoples of Europe and those of North America, and it was not just a one way street.  DNA and other evidence points to the influence of indigenous North American blood with that of North Europeans and vice versa.

Many different people throughout the world have, in the past couple decades, arrived at conclusions that point to ancient contact from both sides of the Atlantic.

"Our aim is to bring together completely different fields of study which point to the same conclusions," says Steve St. Clair, one of the organizers of the event. The Sinclair family is one of the sponsors of the event and also lays claim to an ancestor who was likely here about 100 years before Columbus. Niven Sinclair, another leader of the conference says, "There is compelling evidence that Prince Henry St. Clair was here in 1398, but he certainly wasn't the first." Indeed, many researchers, academics and scientists will gather at Saint Mary's to show evidence that ranges from a Roman coin found in Mexico to the Kensington Runestone, covered in strange letterforms, that was found in 1898 in Minnesota. "There is simply an overwhelming amount of evidence in favor of early trans-Atlantic voyaging all the way back to the Hebrews, the Romans, the Phoenicians, the Minoans, the Vikings, the Basque peoples and many more," says event organizer Mark Staveley of Newfoundland. "We believe that a gathering of multiple disciplines will lead to new avenues of research and possibly even more concrete proof."

Metis Natives as well as Natives from the Anishinaabe and Mi'kmaq tribes will be on hand to bless the event and to share sacred stories of early contact. "It's time for these stories to be told to a wider audience," says Martin Carriere, a Native leader who will speak to the conference on the need to re-unification of the world family, the first part of which was very early contact across the Atlantic. "Living and being together as a family is truly the only option that engenders lasting peace."

Mr. Milliken's address will be one of the first in what is turning out to be a unification of many countries and cultures in the center of where this early contact took place – Nova Scotia.  "Nova Scotia is central to the story of early contact," says Staveley. "When coming east to west, many of these early explorers established Nova Scotia as their first base of operations on this continent. Consider L'Anse aux Meadows, the early Norse settlement which generated so much controversy in academic circles. "Now this discovery is universally accepted as valid," says Staveley, "but not before nearly destroying the husband and wife team who proved it valid."  Steve St. Clair says, "This area of exploration, known as Diffusionism, is not without controversy. Most academics tread cautiously here. And that's why this conference is so important. The shear amount of evidence is beginning to overwhelm the skeptics."

The Atlantic Conference is August 16th & 17th in McNally Main Auditorium at Saint Mary's University in Halifax. All are welcome to attend and tickets can be acquired at www.AtlanticConference.org. The cost for a two-day pass to hear all speeches is $25 and includes lunch in the campus cafeteria. Over 12 speakers will present during the 2-day conference.

 A small sampling of the proofs of early trans-Atlantic contact long before Columbus –

17,000 years ago, Pre-Clovis explorers crossed the Atlantic about settling in what is now South Carolina.

10,000-7,000 B.C., Northern Europeans called `Red Paint People' followed migratory seabirds across the North Atlantic to America. Burial remains from Maine to Labrador dating to the 6th millennium B.C. show that these peoples were proficient craftsmen.

Cliff paintings and stone carvings in Scandinavia and also in North America seem to point to a connection.

The Kennewick Man was living in what is now Washington State about 5000-9000 years ago.

1000 B.C., Hebrew explorers may have crossed the Atlantic.

1001 A.D., Leif Ericcson and company crossed about 1001 A.D.

1398, Prince Henry St. Clair crossed from Scotland.

1497, the Cabot family crossed and possibly had a first voyage just before Columbus.

 

 
   

#607 From: "Jon van Helsing" <jonvanhelsing@...>
Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:40 pm
Subject: RE: Re: Ancient Waterways of Iowa area photos [Ted Sojka]
jonvanhelsing
Send Email Send Email
 

The pictures did not come through. Can you resend . . .

 

Jon

 

From: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Susan
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 11:27 AM
To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Ancient Waterways of Iowa area photos [Ted Sojka]

 

 

 

Allamakee County Iowa


 


Across the river from the confluence of the Wisconsin and Mississippi Rivers.


Pike's Bluff now called Pikes Peak State Park in Iowa.


 


The hill that is Wyalusing State Park near Prairie du Chien.

One of a series of drawings that I did for the Winneshiek County Nature Center, called the people who once lived here.   
--- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan" <beldingenglish@...> wrote:
>
>
> Ancient Waterways Society friends,
>
> Thanks for recent letters, Stan, Vince, Chris, etc. Will hope for
> Wireless service in Nova Scotia to reply. I am home less than a day
> from a conference in Keweenaw, my '92 Ford broke down in the Porcupine
> Mts., I was on the road across from an aboriginal copper mining pit and
> a bear started circling me wanting what I was eating. Thank goodness an
> approaching warden's truck deterred him but was told next time I should
> toss the food away from me.
>
> Am leaving later today for Halifax to help the organizers with the Nova
> Scotia Atlantic Conference, a first trip to a place I have always
> dreamed of seeing.
>
> I have been so busy I was remiss in not sending this very thoughtful,
> interesting letter very relevant to our site, from an Iowan who emailed
> me about possible future Ancient Waterways Society gatherings or field
> trips. I do hope Ted Sojka's letter, photos, and his beautifully
> illustrated drawing comes through in this post. If not, I will delete
> it and ask Ted to put it in personally.
>
> With so many other related, highly active groups out there, Ted may not
> feel the need to join this group but it is hope he will be among the
> many who, as non-members, frequentlyfollow our posts. Ted also stated
> in earlier letters that he shares photos but not locations, so as to
> protect the sites. He asked that the photos not be used without his
> permission nor reproduced.
>
> Thank you, Ted.
>
> Susan
>
> "...This may have been the piece you asked about. The first image I
> cannot remember the source, though I think it from a Iowa archeology
> department poster or from Effigy Mounds National Monument web site.
> http://www.iowageology.org/gb70/page_1.htm
> <http://www.iowageology.org/gb70/page_1.htm> There is also some good
> information if you forward this site along to any of the groups. [Ted
> Sojka of Iowa]
>
> Susan. Sorry I was not able to attend the Ancient Earthworks Society. I
> have been affiliated with the Native Earthworks Preservation group for
> several years, and I have been working for several archeologists as a
> photographer and artist for forty years in Northeast Iowa.
> Ancient Waterways is of course a natural to go with the mounds as the
> rivers connect all the sites and were the highways for thousands of
> years before other forms of travel was possible.
> The Prairie in the photos hosted not only many thousands of years of
> native gatherings, but also many who were to become presidents of this
> country when this was the Western frontier. Abraham Lincoln came during
> the Black Hawk War,as well as Jefferson Davis, who was in charge of the
> lumber mill which made the materials for several of the forts in the
> area. Zachary Taylor and Winfield Scot also were stationed in the area.
> General Atkinson left his name on forts in Iowa and Wisconsin.
> But for the first nation it was the main highway from the great lakes to
> the Father of Waters, and points South. The Cahokians came upriver to
> trade and build Aztalan, and the first walled trading places on the
> river. The first Walmart in Allamakee County which has been explored in
> several digs, contained Obsidian from Yellowstone, copper from the Upper
> Peninsula, amd conch shell from the Gulf of Mexico. A large rim shard
> that probably contained seed for trade was found to have been made near
> St. Louis from the clay it was made of and the designs it was decorated
> with.
> Send me more information about the ancient waterways. Thanks. Ted Sojka
> Art Educators of Iowa
> (see next post for Ted's photos and drawing)
>


#608 From: "Rick Osmon" <ozman@...>
Date: Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:41 am
Subject: Re: Atlantic Conference Update
ozmanusaa
Send Email Send Email
 
Here is the link for the segment with Gunnar Thompson:

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/oopa-loopa-cafe/2008/08/15/tba

and if that is a decent example of the speakers at this thing, we're in for a treat!

And Terry, glad to meet you.

Oz

--- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan" <beldingenglish@...> wrote:
>
>
> In the article to follow, there is an excellent "diffusionist" statement
> and definition in this more recent update from the Atlantic Conference.
> Native peoples, politicians, researchers, educators, already working
> closely and equally together with the international Sinclair/St. Clair
> clan and highly respected memb[uers of the scientific community are
> drawing public notice. Many from around the world are watching this
> young group of organizers put on what looks to be a remarkable
> multiple-disciplinary assemblage of backgrounds from the
> physical/quantum, and social sciences. Scientists, avocational
> researchers, lay persons and people of diverse international
> cultures/ideas are considering possibilities that there was frequent
> cooperative, and peaceful ancient contact and two way cross-Atlantic
> diffusion between North Americn indiginious peoples, 'Europeans' and
> others .
>
> Member from of Friends of this site w$ho attended the 'Ancient Waterways
> Society' weekend gathering last May along Lake Superior are already en
> route for Nova Scotia to assist with, sponsor, or speak at the Atlantic
> Conference are: Rick and Pat Osman, Lee and Joy Pennington, Wayne May
> and Ancient American staff, geologist Scott Wolter, possibly William
> Smith, myself and others I am not aware of.
>
> Hope some of you might be able to attend or be involved with the next
> Atlantic Conference next year.
>
> I received a note from Steve St. Clair today: not intending to make
> money on the event and wishing to make it possible for anyone interested
> to attend who can get there, there is a further reduction to a $25 fee
> for the entire conference, which includes one lunch. My kind of people.
>
> Another new presenter will be Speaker of the House of Commons (see below
> plus Speakers)
>
> I may blog updates from the confernce. Rick Osman will be hosting the
> Oopa Loopa Cafe internet radio directly from the floor live tomorrow
> evening, so please fewel free to call in and be a part of the
> conference.
>
> Susan
>
> Home <http://www.atlanticconference.org/index.php> Schedule
> <http://www.atlanticconference.org/AtlanticConference-2/schedule.htm>
> Speakers
> <http://www.atlanticconference.org/AtlanticConference-2/speakers.htm>
> Poster Competition
> <http://www.atlanticconference.org/AtlanticConference-2/Call_For_Posters\
> .pdf> Travel
> <http://www.atlanticconference.org/AtlanticConference-2/travel.htm>
> Register
> <http://www.atlanticconference.org/AtlanticConference-2/registration.htm\
> > Our Aims
> <http://www.atlanticconference.org/AtlanticConference-2/aim.htm>
> About Us
> <http://www.atlanticconference.org/AtlanticConference-2/aboutus.htm>
> Contact <mailto:steve@...?subject=Atlantic Conference from
> website>
>
> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASEe
>
> The Hon. Peter Milliken, Speaker of the House of Commons and M.P. for
> Kingston and the Islands to Address the Atlantic Conference on August
> 16th at Saint Mary's University, Halifax, NS.
>
> The Hon. Peter Milliken is scheduled to address the Atlantic Conference
> on Saturday, August 16th. He will be among scientists and researchers
> exploring theories that point to ancient contact between indigenous
> peoples of North America and early Europeans.
>
> Presented as the definitive gathering of world experts on the
> possibility of early trans-Atlantic contact, the Atlantic Conference
> will take place on August 16th & 17th at Saint Mary's University in
> Halifax, Nova Scotia. Linguists, Indigenous experts, Archaeologists,
> Cartographers, DNA experts and thought leaders from many differing
> fields will gather to share their recent work, their views regarding
> early trans-Atlantic contact between peoples of the Americas with those
> of Europe, Africa and the Middle East.
>
> Since the 1933 discovery of a flint spearhead unearthed at Clovis, New
> Mexico, scientists, academics and just about everyone else became
> entrenched in the idea that North Americans arrived on this continent
> exclusively via the Bering Straight land bridge. The mammoth skeleton
> that lay beside the Clovis point was carbon-dated to 11,500 years ago
> and there seemed to be no other find that pointed to older human
> habitation in North America. This theory became so accepted that
> archaeologists stopped looking for older artifacts.
>
> But, all along, our native friends have told a different story. They
> speak of many waves of migration between the peoples of Europe and those
> of North America, and it was not just a one way street. DNA and other
> evidence points to the influence of indigenous North American blood with
> that of North Europeans and vice versa.
>
> Many different people throughout the world have, in the past couple
> decades, arrived at conclusions that point to ancient contact from both
> sides of the Atlantic.
>
> "Our aim is to bring together completely different fields of study which
> point to the same conclusions," says Steve St. Clair, one of the
> organizers of the event. The Sinclair family is one of the sponsors of
> the event and also lays claim to an ancestor who was likely here about
> 100 years before Columbus. Niven Sinclair, another leader of the
> conference says, "There is compelling evidence that Prince Henry St.
> Clair was here in 1398, but he certainly wasn't the first." Indeed,
> many researchers, academics and scientists will gather at Saint Mary's
> to show evidence that ranges from a Roman coin found in Mexico to the
> Kensington Runestone, covered in strange letterforms, that was found in
> 1898 in Minnesota. "There is simply an overwhelming amount of evidence
> in favor of early trans-Atlantic voyaging all the way back to the
> Hebrews, the Romans, the Phoenicians, the Minoans, the Vikings, the
> Basque peoples and many more," says event organizer Mark Staveley of
> Newfoundland. "We believe that a gathering of multiple disciplines will
> lead to new avenues of research and possibly even more concrete proof."
>
> Metis Natives as well as Natives from the Anishinaabe and Mi'kmaq tribes
> will be on hand to bless the event and to share sacred stories of early
> contact. "It's time for these stories to be told to a wider audience,"
> says Martin Carriere, a Native leader who will speak to the conference
> on the need to re-unification of the world family, the first part of
> which was very early contact across the Atlantic. "Living and being
> together as a family is truly the only option that engenders lasting
> peace."
>
> Mr. Milliken's address will be one of the first in what is turning out
> to be a unification of many countries and cultures in the center of
> where this early contact took place – Nova Scotia. "Nova Scotia is
> central to the story of early contact," says Staveley. "When coming east
> to west, many of these early explorers established Nova Scotia as their
> first base of operations on this continent. Consider L'Anse aux Meadows,
> the early Norse settlement which generated so much controversy in
> academic circles. "Now this discovery is universally accepted as valid,"
> says Staveley, "but not before nearly destroying the husband and wife
> team who proved it valid." Steve St. Clair says, "This area of
> exploration, known as Diffusionism, is not without controversy. Most
> academics tread cautiously here. And that's why this conference is so
> important. The shear amount of evidence is beginning to overwhelm the
> skeptics."
>
> The Atlantic Conference is August 16th & 17th in McNally Main Auditorium
> at Saint Mary's University in Halifax. All are welcome to attend and
> tickets can be acquired at www.AtlanticConference.org
> <http://www.atlanticconference.org/> . The cost for a two-day pass to
> hear all speeches is $25 and includes lunch in the campus cafeteria.
> Over 12 speakers will present during the 2-day conference.
>
> A small sampling of the proofs of early trans-Atlantic contact long
> before Columbus –
>
> 17,000 years ago, Pre-Clovis explorers crossed the Atlantic about
> settling in what is now South Carolina.
>
> 10,000-7,000 B.C., Northern Europeans called `Red Paint People'
> followed migratory seabirds across the North Atlantic to America. Burial
> remains from Maine to Labrador dating to the 6th millennium B.C. show
> that these peoples were proficient craftsmen.
>
> Cliff paintings and stone carvings in Scandinavia and also in North
> America seem to point to a connection.
>
> The Kennewick Man was living in what is now Washington State about
> 5000-9000 years ago.
>
> 1000 B.C., Hebrew explorers may have crossed the Atlantic.
>
> 1001 A.D., Leif Ericcson and company crossed about 1001 A.D.
>
> 1398, Prince Henry St. Clair crossed from Scotland.
>
> 1497, the Cabot family crossed and possibly had a first voyage just
> before Columbus.
>

#609 From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
Date: Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:15 pm
Subject: Re: diamond dot symbol
yacrispyubetcha
Send Email Send Email
 
Hello Vince, Ted, All...

Whether this complicates or clarifies anything...
If we are convinced of diffusionistic contact from the Levant to the Mississippi
River and Tributaries in pre-colon times...
If we trust the oral histories of the Natives themselves to say they had Semitic
contact...
If we trust our own experience, eyes, ears and observations that many SEastern
tribal customs have rootwords, symbologies of the Levant woven into their
current cultures...
Therefore, i do conclude that many symbols seen in the Woodland and Mississipian
era artifacts could have values and interpretations in parallel with the archaic
aleph-bets of the Bronze and Iron ages from the Levant.
 
That point being taken, i went to my own charts and lexicon.
A Diamond represent(s)(ed) the letter Peh or "P" sound.
Peh has an individual meaning of "Mouth", meaning to speak, sing or project
sacred Words. This would account for why the Drummers (who were singing as they
Drummed) had it on their foreheads.
 
A Dot signifies the letter Nun or "N", however it designates that it is a
terminal or 'end' sound to the word or syllable. A Dot would not start a
syllable, but would finish it.
So Peh + Nun has only a few possibilities in the Semitic root word panoply.
"PehN" is a conjunction = that not, lest  (as in "we not forget")
"PaynAY" as an infinitive = to turn to, to look
                as an imperative = to drive away, to clear
"PaynEH" m.noun = face, countenance
"PinnAY" f.noun = pinnacle, pillar, chief, prince
"PanEEN" m.noun = coral, pearl
 
The diamond with dots inside could remind one of pearls within a shell, or
mother-of-pearl. Which may add a new depth to the fact that many sacred gorgets
were made of mother-of-pearl. The word for Pearl would be semantically linked by
phoneme to the concepts above.
Wearing or displaying the material could have been a message by itself,
regardless of what was carved into it.
 
The Diamond/Dot pattern might then be: A symbol placed on the face, to clear
ones mind, to prepare to emit The Words of highest meaning. "Pearls
of Wisdom" as an idiom is older than writing. It could have traveled amongst the
initiates of all contacts.
 
A thot.
-chris

--- On Tue, 8/12/08, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...> wrote:

From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: diamond dot symbol
To: "Ted Sojka" <tedsojka@...>, ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, August 12, 2008, 11:54 PM

According to Ophiliolatrea -

Horapollo, referring to the serpent symbol, says of it:---"When the Egyptians
would represent the Universe they delineate a serpent bespeckled with variegated
scales, devouring its own tail, the scales intimating the stars in the Universe.
The animal is extremely heavy, as is the earth, and extremely slippery like the
water, moreover, it every year puts off its old age with its skin, as in the
Universe the annual period effects a corresponding change and becomes renovated,
and the making use of its own body for food implies that all things whatever,
which are generated by divine providence in the world, undergo a corruption into
them again."

--- On Wed, 8/13/08, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...> wrote:

From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: diamond dot symbol
To: "Ted Sojka" <tedsojka@...>
Cc: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, August 13, 2008, 12:41 AM

Ted Sojka;
What a facinating question and several examples are shown in the following
compilation of diamond dot tribal symbolism, located at the following link.
>   http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/diamond%20dot/   <

As shown by Frank Speck in the Delaware Indian Big House Ceremony , the diamond
dot was used as a style of Face Paintings worn by men taking part in social
dances, and only permitted for use by the drummers in the Big House Ceremony.
These are commonly known as warrior's or fancy dress paintings.

The second photo is a hohokam palette with the diamond crosshatching symbol
covering one side, while the other side has a symbol of a decapitated hourglass
shaped human torso falling from the sky, a winged four legged kneeling animal,
and two other figures of perhaps a turtle and human torso? The circle beneath
the top figure appears to be a dot for an oracle head with single line drawn for
the mouth.

The third is a ferocious catlinite engraving from the Bastian site. Three
diamonds adorn the lower left hand corner at varying angles. A circular sun
image radiates from the central eye of the creature

Next is an Osage dark Catlinite pipe with a carved diamond dot shape circling
around the pipe. The stem of the pipe would connect with the center of the
diamond dot shape. Smoking ceremonies must have been powerful.

Next is a piece of pottery adorned with diamond and circular shaped fabric
impression. This tripple plaited fabric impression from a salt pan was found
south of Valmeyer, Illinois nearby Cahokia Mounds.

Last is a hohokam palette that is shaped like a diamond with numerous dots in
the center.

My research indicates that the diamond with a dot in the center is highly
symbolic of the eagle eye. I have read of a bespeckled serpent scale that is to
represent Mu Aquila surrounding by Aquila; which means that is very many eagles
surrounded by the great eagle.

Another layer of symbolism can be seen in the diamond as the shape of the mounds
that form Cahokia Mounds with the central dot that may represent Monks Mound.

Best Regards;
Vince

--- On Mon, 8/11/08, Ted Sojka <tedsojka@mchsi. com> wrote:

From: Ted Sojka <tedsojka@mchsi. com>
Subject: diamond dot
To: "Vincent Barrows" <v_barrows@yahoo. com>
Date: Monday, August 11, 2008, 10:07 AM

I remember climbing the 7 story bird mound at Poverty Point years ago,
and for so early a time period it was an amazing effort to buiid, and
the village circles that are near it are even more astounding.
  If
done before agriculture
  as claimed, they had a mission for a hunter/
gathered society, equivalent to building a French cathedral.  I am a
retired art teacher and took photos for R. Clark Mallum, who was an
archeologist who worked at Effigy Mounds National Monument near here
in NE Iowa.

What do you know of the diamond with dot or slash pattern and its
relation to the burial society or death cult , as well as the
connection to cahokia?

ted

PS Thanks so much for the information you sent today.

#610 From: "Susan" <beldingenglish@...>
Date: Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:55 am
Subject: Missing Aztalan Offering Stone
beldingenglish
Send Email Send Email
 
With permission that arrived in my emailbox today as I answer it here at the Atlantic Conference this evening, I am inserting the following correspondence, newest to the oldest.  Should the photo not come through, please email me.
 
Rick Osman is standing next to me here at the university in Halifax; the conference attendees representing dozens of states, provinces, nations sang Happy Birthday to him at a dinner overlooking the harbor, ocean....a dinner fit for a king or queen....
 
I had told a few people from Ancient Earthworks Society interested in a group to feel free to join us or follow posts; one of that group might also wish to start an Ancient Earthworks Society Yahoo group, too.  In the meantime, I have been given permission by the correspondents to submit the following, which many of us believe may help in the return of the missing artifact at Atzalan, near Lake Mills, WI
 ___________________________________________________
From: Steven Steigerwald <aztalan2008@...>
To: suzenglish@...
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2008 2:28 pm
Hi,
Thanks for the great reply to the offering stone email Isent you. Sorry for the late answer but I am having trouble with my yahoo email so please change my email to aztalan2008@...
I was able to forward your email to Jim Stevens. I have not been in contact with him over your request for his email address. I hope he has seen fit to contact you if he got your forwarded email. I am very interested in the work you and your friends are doing. We have not found the offering stone yet but some think it may have been a prank as a small stone was left in place of the offering stone. Yes, please send the info on the stone around, that was oked by Jim Stevens. Again sorry for the late reply and thanks for your great reply.
Steven Steigerwald
For the Aztalan Museum and myself
________________-
Aztalan offering stone
From: Steven Steigerwald <stevensteigerwald@...>
To: suzenglish@...
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 3:00 pm

Attachment

OfferingStone.jpg  

Attachment

The_Offering_Stone.doc  

Hi,
I understand you can contact Dr. Scherz.
Would you please forward him this.
The "Offering Stone" in the photo with Dr. Scherz was taken from the Aztalan Museum we think the night of 7-8-08. The other attachment is from a Native American about the stone.
I am having some trouble with the attachments, hope this works.
Thanks
Steve Steigerwald
___________________________________
 From Jim Stevens:
 
It is thought that sometime on the night of July 8, 2008, the stone disappeared from near one of the sacred hills at Aztalan. Around two fe et in diameter, the "Grandfather" was discovered during the 1990s by then caretaker Don Shuler, a man of Mohawk heritage. He found it one day while clearing out some brush just south of the so-called Princess Mound.
 
     In this mound was buried sometime in the eleventh or twelfth century a young hunchback woman. In her twenties, she was laid to rest upon a robe of sea-shell discs. When her resting-place was breached early in the twentieth century, her remains were put on display in the Milwaukee Public Museum. When this disgrace was removed through protest by indigenous people, her bones were tossed indiscriminately with others, into a box in the basement of the museum.
 
     The discovery of the offering stone was received by traditional Native Americans with respect and homage. The stone was re-sanctified.
 
     People of the dominant culture, on the other hand, chose to regard it with suspicion. It was not necessarily a part of Aztalan culture, it was said. In the days leading up to the loss, on the Fourth of July, Aztalan Days were held, a festival focusing on the pioneer town as well as the ancient site. On this day a map was handed out, and it showed the location of the stone. Within four days afterward, the Grandfather was gone.
 
     I grieve in the wake of this disrespect, and as a Native American who has for almost forty years attended the Spirit here, I feel personally violated. This is not simply because of the immediate material loss.  My larger concern is the enormous disconnection which is habit within the dominant culture.
 
     It is not true to perceive two separate things, two separate time-scapes. Turtle Island, our indigenous landscape, did not suddenly go away with the incursion of European culture in this hemisphere. True Spirit is still in this place, and at a sacred site such as Aztalan, traditional ways are still being practiced. There is no rationale of "that was then, this is now." The offering stone serves the same purpose as it always has: it is a focal point of Native prayers. Aztalan has always been a place of Spirit.
 
     And a person is not able to make the anthropological distinction, saying that something would be, for example, not culturally "middle-mississippian" (or Aztalan) but "woodland," as if to diminish it, to deny its value. To do so is to not see the arrangement and totality of the sacred hills and their consort objects. The eye is forced to view the holistic quality of the sacred landscape in order to carry an understanding of it.
 
     To take this one step further: these hills and stones were placed here at various moments over more than a thousand years. They still have their power as sacred attributes. They are, in that regard, beyond time. And now that a piece of the landscape, in the person of the offering stone, has been removed by some recent misguided soul, once again is the world taken into imbalance. This is a truth one should know.

  1 Attached Images


#612 From: "Susan" <beldingenglish@...>
Date: Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:11 pm
Subject: NSExplore fwd: Post Atlantic Conference and NS heaven on earth explorations
beldingenglish
Send Email Send Email
 

All,

Please see excellent synopsis of the Atlantic Conference and response to my post to NSExlore group by AWS member and tour director Terry Deveau who is leading the last leg of his tour today.  See post # 9072. I hope each of you will be able to save for and attend the conference two years from now in or near Halifax, Nova Scotia.  I am going to try to find a way we can share hostle type lodging, meals beyond the conference, transportation on tours to but the cost as low as possible.  I believe this ongoing 'conference' that started in the Orkney Islands years ago...and the third one is ahead...is far more encompassing across cultural lines and larger in scope and potential within the global big picture than anything else I have ever seen.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NSExplore/message/9072

Susan


#613 From: "Susan" <beldingenglish@...>
Date: Tue Sep 2, 2008 1:32 pm
Subject: Portal to Maya Underworld?
beldingenglish
Send Email Send Email
 

Portal to Maya Underworld Found in Mexico?

Alexis Okeowo in México City
for National Geographic News
August 22, 2008

A labyrinth filled with stone temples and pyramids in 14 caves—some underwater—have been uncovered on Mexico's Yucatán Peninsula, archaeologists announced last week.

The discovery has experts wondering whether Maya legend inspired the construction of the underground complex—or vice versa.

According to Maya myth, the souls of the dead had to follow a dog with night vision on a horrific and watery path and endure myriad challenges before they could rest in the afterlife.

In one of the recently found caves, researchers discovered a nearly 300-foot (90-meter) concrete road that ends at a column standing in front of a body of water.

"We have this pattern now of finding temples close to the water—or under the water, in this most recent case," said Guillermo de Anda, lead investigator at the research sites.

"These were probably made as part of a very elaborate ritual," de Anda said. "Everything is related to death, life, and human sacrifice."

Stretching south from southern Mexico, through Guatemala, and into northern Belize, the Maya culture had its heyday from about A.D. 250 to 900, when the civilization mysteriously collapsed.

(Read about the watery graves of the Maya in National Geographic magazine.)

Myth and Reality

Archaeologists excavating the temples and pyramids in the village of Tahtzibichen, in Mérida, the capital of Yucatán state, said the oldest item they found was a 1,900-year-old vessel. Other uncovered earthenware and sculptures dated to A.D. 750 to 850.

"There are stones, huge columns, and sculptures of priests in the caves," said de Anda, whose team has been working on the Yucatán Peninsula for six months.

"There are also human remains and ceramics," he said.

Researchers said the ancient legend—described in part in the sacred book Popul Vuh—tells of a tortuous journey through oozing blood, bats, and spiders, that souls had to make in order to reach Xibalba, the underworld.

"Caves are natural portals to other realms, which could have inspired the Mayan myth. They are related to darkness, to fright, and to monsters," de Anda said, adding that this does not contradict the theory that the myth inspired the temples.

William Saturno, a Maya expert at Boston University, believes the maze of temples was built after the story.

"I'm sure the myths came first, and the caves reaffirmed the broad time-and-space myths of the Mayans," he said.

Underworld Entrances

Saturno said the discovery of the temples underwater indicates the significant effort the Maya put into creating these portals.

In addition to plunging deep into the forest to reach the cave openings, Maya builders would have had to hold their breath and dive underwater to build some of the shrines and pyramids.

Other Maya underworld entrances have been discovered in jungles and aboveground caves in northern Guatemala Belize.

"They believed in a reality with many layers," Saturno said of the Maya. "The portal between life and where the dead go was important to them."

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/08/080822-maya-maze.html?source=email_inside_20080902&email=inside

#614 From: "bigalemc2" <puppet@...>
Date: Wed Sep 3, 2008 5:30 am
Subject: Re: Portal to Maya Underworld?
bigalemc2
Send Email Send Email
 
Susan -

Can you clarify your meaning here?

I have a general comment, but am not sure how to respond specifically to yours.

Steve



--- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan" <beldingenglish@...> wrote:

 All, From National Geographic this week. I'd bet this wasn't recreated after the myths and legends as the archaeologist suggests...Especially others here who have gone diving in the thousands of underwater ceynotes and passages in MezoAmerica.


#615 From: "Susan" <beldingenglish@...>
Date: Thu Sep 4, 2008 7:09 am
Subject: Re: Portal to Maya Underworld?
beldingenglish
Send Email Send Email
 
Hi Steve,

Please go ahead and fire away; I always enjoy what you have to say and
enjoy looking at things from broader perspective.

I only added comment because I don't like to insert a link without
comment.  I do know two who read posts at this site who have done some
diving in Yucatan ceynotes.  I personally found one which, to me, show
physical evidence of considerable antiquity.  But, that particular site
was long ago damaged by countless tourists and will never be of
archaeological interest.

While I have you online here, Steve, I hope you will check out the
Atlantic Conference Halifax web site which intends to stay current as
they are working into a third conference.  First was in the Orkneys.  It
is my personal hope you see yourself involved with this association of
bright international people and consider investing toward the next
conference (and a week or two to explore there).  I wrote to your friend
Chris Dunn soon as I got back.  I wish I could better express myself,
sometimes.

Thanks for contributing to this web site, despite little traffic or
interest here.  I do like the ideals behind a global, ancient waterways
connection between cultures throughout the span of human existence.

Diffusionists Without Borders, MSE



   --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "bigalemc2"
<puppet@...> wrote:
>
> Susan -
>
> Can you clarify your meaning here?
>
> I have a general comment, but am not sure how to respond specifically
to
> yours.
>
> Steve
>
>
> --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
> beldingenglish@ wrote:
>
> All, From National Geographic this week. I'd bet this wasn't recreated
> after the myths and legends as the archaeologist suggests...Especially
> others here who have gone diving in the thousands of underwater
ceynotes
> and passages in MezoAmerica.
>

#616 From: "Susan" <beldingenglish@...>
Date: Thu Sep 4, 2008 9:45 pm
Subject: Future of the Atlantic Conference & possible trips eastward
beldingenglish
Send Email Send Email
 
All,
 
I have been back from Nova Scotia two weeks, somewhat tending to a blood clot here at home which is lodged near my knee and has not killed me yet.
 
Apologies for my usual long renderings which seems to be welling up here once again. I warn some of you to take leave of this post if you wish.  I have even more time now that my leg is in the air with fingers flying trying to keep from disengaging here again after a rigorous field trip yesterday following up on a rock wall in the next county.
 
Still impacted by the international Nova Scotia conference attended by a smaller percentage of US citizens than I am used to within groups and confernces, that made it all the more international and cross-cultural, as is my intent in most things these days.
 
Next actual Atlantic Conference, will probably be two years from now. Hopefully that association, which I and others from various groups here in the US are very much aligned, will continue to maintain integrity and current broad-reaching aims as a 'gathering of experts [and others] who share information between a variety of disciplines regarding early trans-Atlantic contact....a "cross pollination" of sorts', and post-conference on-line meetingplace that also welcomes a skeptical approach and demands proofs'.  I don't believe that differs from the direction of many at this Ancient Waterways Society and other web sites which may be more active in dialogue than our web group.
 
Below is a latest link added to Atlantic Conference web site, which I hope some of you will be interested in attending a year or two from now, possibly joining some of us in car-pooling. One of the Sinclairs suggested a bus might be dispatched from the Midwest to Nova Scotia, and I would hope it would be for possibly a ten day to two week trip around the next 3 day conference at a university setting near Halifax again. 
 
Hope you see yourselves directly within this association, as it continues to evolve and become more globally inclusive, scientifically re-examining and 're-writing' the early historic and ancient past. See "Future of the Atlantic Conference":
 
I will look into trying to find group lodging, meal sharing, though a university room on-site at St. Mary's University was around $40/night including breakfast and taxes during the weekend Speaker/Conference part of the event.  The five days after the conference, meals and lodging was high, sales tax I believe 14%, Terry and the Penningtons at JoLeProductions took on most of the gasoline expenses (at $5.50/gallon).
 
If individuals at this site (and others) can afford to travel from home to beautiful place with many pristine archaeological and early American historic sites related to what many of us are researching, the trip might prove very worthwhile to save for and invest in between now and then.  To be among and a viable part of a courageous and diverse group of explorers from many cultures and what I might well call Diffusionists Beyond Borders.  Certainly in respect to looking across ancient, transAtlantic, global waterways...
 
The conference is ongoing: http://www.atlanticconference.org/
 
Watch for updates and an at-cost DVD of last month's event. AWS member Terry Deveau of Halifax was field trip director and will be leading the next five day post-conference tours throughout Nova Scotia fjiords, etc. Here is his update: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NSExplore/message/9072
Perhaps in the future we will receive invitations for inexpensive group lodging, even floor space, or reciprocal hospitality from folks out there.  Many Canadians are only vaguely aware of US ancient moundbuilding sites and would probably love to see the interconnection to the Atlantic and to the Gulf and MesoAmerica and visit some of us near related ancient waterways/ancient earthworks within the United States.
 
Brief runs to ancient, historic and scared places on Terry's lists showed possibilities of many virgin ancient sites...dolmen seen predominantly by 200+ year landowner families, several copper mines still open, untouched a century after being abondoned by historic miners.
 
Another spring-off from the August, 08 conference:
a few members of Ancient Waterways and other Atlantic Conf. attendees are looking into the feasiblity next spring or just before the next conference on the NE Coast of a possible road trip along early historic and ancient water routes from N. Minnesota to the Atlantic. It would include stopovers at Peterboro, Nippsing and Quebec as invited guests to lodge with aboriginal descendents, a chief, Mi'cqmac whom we met at the conference, and a host of Canadian others. As mentioned before, Native Americans were at the helm equally with the Sinclair Clan and other organizers throughtout the Atlantic Conference in Halifax, and also had been at the first Atlantic Confernece in the Orkney Islands.  In fact, in scientific DNA studies by Steve St. Clair from NYC and international Sinclair family members,  many tribal members at the conference and others throughout Canada and the US are genetically related to the Sinclairs, whose direct predecessor was in Canada nearly a century before Columbus, with possible two way cross-continental contact long before that.  The Sinclair clan also are direct descendents of William S., who founded Roslyn Chapel. I am told by many scientists there unrelated to the Sinclairs solid evidence backs these factors, and I laugh to think it is all far more intriguing and synchronistic than any of us even considered the possibilities of. A book being released next spring but based on scientific fact may prove an ever greater blockbuster than the "DaVinci Code" may be coming out from years of research of a mutual friend to many at this site,  geologist Scott Wolter.  It is based on solid scientific evidence and verification, open to scrutiny by others, hopefully some of you here if you get into personally knowing AtlanticConferenence.org people here in the Americas and abroad.
 
Such fun,
 
Susan

#617 From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
Date: Sun Sep 7, 2008 2:31 am
Subject: Faces from the past : a photo essay
v_barrows
Send Email Send Email
 
http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/Faces%20of%20the%20Past/


#618 From: "Susan" <beldingenglish@...>
Date: Mon Sep 8, 2008 3:17 am
Subject: Re: Faces from the past : a photo essay
beldingenglish
Send Email Send Email
 

Vince,

Thanks for sending the link below...I am also inserting the Marburg72 link (not sure what Marburg means) that your Faces of the Past is also connected to. Are all photos within the links from your collection that you are cataloguing along with stone tablets? I clicked onto the photos and did not see specific descriptions, dates, sites where each was found....unless I am not clicking in the right place.

I wonder if you could you introduce the sites, for the archived posts here and then put them into the Links or photos section, for reference purposes. 

Thanks again, Vince. 

http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/Faces%20of%20the%20Past/

http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/


--- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...> wrote:
>
> http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/Faces%20of%20the%20Past/
>


#619 From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
Date: Tue Sep 9, 2008 4:29 pm
Subject: Fw: SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time"
v_barrows
Send Email Send Email
 
FYI;  This is a highly anticipated upcoming presentation.

--- On Tue, 9/9/08, SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time" <dtwigg@...> wrote:
From: SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time" <dtwigg@...>
Subject: SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time"
To: v_barrows@...
Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 10:13 AM

SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time"

Link to SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time"

Monday Sept 15th - All About Our Gridstone and Others Found at Mound Sites

Posted: 08 Sep 2008 07:28 PM CDT

SRAC and the Andaste Chapter of PA Archaeology will be holding their joint meeting on Monday Sept 15th and Deb Twigg, executive director of SRAC will be presenting all the theories about the Gridstone found below Spanish Hill that she has been able to find from other research done on these stones.

This meeting is open and free to the public to attend!

Come and be a part of the research and discussion! (This one could really be a BIGGIE.)

Collectors are always invited to bring pieces from their collections to share and discuss!

Hope to see you there!


#620 From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
Date: Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:57 am
Subject: Re: Fw: SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time"
v_barrows
Send Email Send Email
 
Sad News to share in the Article entitled : History Gets the Ax deals with the closing of 11 Illinois State Historic Sites.

http://www.bnd.com/editorial/story/457154.html

Vince

--- On Tue, 9/9/08, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...> wrote:
From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Fw: SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time"
To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 12:29 PM

FYI;  This is a highly anticipated upcoming presentation.

--- On Tue, 9/9/08, SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time" <dtwigg@spanishhill. com> wrote:
From: SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time" <dtwigg@spanishhill. com>
Subject: SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time"
To: v_barrows@yahoo. com
Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 10:13 AM

SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time"

Link to SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time"

Monday Sept 15th - All About Our Gridstone and Others Found at Mound Sites

Posted: 08 Sep 2008 07:28 PM CDT

SRAC and the Andaste Chapter of PA Archaeology will be holding their joint meeting on Monday Sept 15th and Deb Twigg, executive director of SRAC will be presenting all the theories about the Gridstone found below Spanish Hill that she has been able to find from other research done on these stones.

This meeting is open and free to the public to attend!

Come and be a part of the research and discussion! (This one could really be a BIGGIE.)

Collectors are always invited to bring pieces from their collections to share and discuss!

Hope to see you there!



#621 From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
Date: Wed Sep 10, 2008 3:10 am
Subject: Re: Fw: SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time"
v_barrows
Send Email Send Email
 
Good News to share about the Cahoki Mounds: U of I is proposing transfer to Federal Government Control. Clearly the State of Illinois cannot properly take care of the site - as demonstrated by their destruction of Monks Mound.

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/illinoisnews/story/4C1D8E635C4BEAB6862574AE001225C1?OpenDocument

Vince

--- On Tue, 9/9/08, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...> wrote:
From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Fw: SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time"
To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 12:29 PM

FYI;  This is a highly anticipated upcoming presentation.

--- On Tue, 9/9/08, SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time" <dtwigg@spanishhill. com> wrote:
From: SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time" <dtwigg@spanishhill. com>
Subject: SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time"
To: v_barrows@yahoo. com
Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 10:13 AM

SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time"

Link to SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time"

Monday Sept 15th - All About Our Gridstone and Others Found at Mound Sites

Posted: 08 Sep 2008 07:28 PM CDT

SRAC and the Andaste Chapter of PA Archaeology will be holding their joint meeting on Monday Sept 15th and Deb Twigg, executive director of SRAC will be presenting all the theories about the Gridstone found below Spanish Hill that she has been able to find from other research done on these stones.

This meeting is open and free to the public to attend!

Come and be a part of the research and discussion! (This one could really be a BIGGIE.)

Collectors are always invited to bring pieces from their collections to share and discuss!

Hope to see you there!



#622 From: Susan English <beldingenglish@...>
Date: Wed Sep 10, 2008 3:17 am
Subject: Re: Fw: SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time"
beldingenglish
Send Email Send Email
 
Vince,
It may be my mistake, but I was unable to copy and paste either link.
Perhaps when you paste in a web address, I suggest hitting enter just past the link and it will highlight. Then you and we can click into the sites instead of having to paste them. Regardless, thanks for including the group here in your interesting work, Vince.
My apologies to the group if the sites Vince put in are OK.
Susan



--- On Tue, 9/9/08, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...> wrote:
From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Fw: SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time"
To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 10:10 PM

Good News to share about the Cahoki Mounds: U of I is proposing transfer to Federal Government Control. Clearly the State of Illinois cannot properly take care of the site - as demonstrated by their destruction of Monks Mound.

http://www.stltoday .com/stltoday/ news/stories. nsf/illinoisnews /story/4C1D8E635 C4BEAB6862574AE0 01225C1?OpenDocu ment

Vince

--- On Tue, 9/9/08, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@yahoo. com> wrote:
From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@yahoo. com>
Subject: [ancient_waterways_ society] Fw: SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time"
To: ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com
Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 12:29 PM

FYI;  This is a highly anticipated upcoming presentation.

--- On Tue, 9/9/08, SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time" <dtwigg@spanishhill. com> wrote:
From: SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time" <dtwigg@spanishhill. com>
Subject: SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time"
To: v_barrows@yahoo. com
Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 10:13 AM

SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time"

Link to SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time"

Posted: 08 Sep 2008 07:28 PM CDT

SRAC and the Andaste Chapter of PA Archaeology will be holding their joint meeting on Monday Sept 15th and Deb Twigg, executive director of SRAC will be presenting all the theories about the Gridstone found below Spanish Hill that she has been able to find from other research done on these stones.

This meeting is open and free to the public to attend!

Come and be a part of the research and discussion! (This one could really be a BIGGIE.)

Collectors are always invited to bring pieces from their collections to share and discuss!

Hope to see you there!




#623 From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
Date: Wed Sep 10, 2008 3:23 am
Subject: Re: Fw: SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time"
v_barrows
Send Email Send Email
 


--- On Tue, 9/9/08, Susan English <beldingenglish@...> wrote:
From: Susan English <beldingenglish@...>
Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Fw: SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time"
To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 11:17 PM

Vince,
It may be my mistake, but I was unable to copy and paste either link.
Perhaps when you paste in a web address, I suggest hitting enter just past the link and it will highlight. Then you and we can click into the sites instead of having to paste them. Regardless, thanks for including the group here in your interesting work, Vince.
My apologies to the group if the sites Vince put in are OK.
Susan



--- On Tue, 9/9/08, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@yahoo. com> wrote:
From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@yahoo. com>
Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_ society] Fw: SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time"
To: ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com
Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 10:10 PM

Good News to share about the Cahoki Mounds: U of I is proposing transfer to Federal Government Control. Clearly the State of Illinois cannot properly take care of the site - as demonstrated by their destruction of Monks Mound.

http://www.stltoday .com/stltoday/ news/stories. nsf/illinoisnews /story/4C1D8E635 C4BEAB6862574AE0 01225C1?OpenDocu ment

Vince

--- On Tue, 9/9/08, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@yahoo. com> wrote:
From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@yahoo. com>
Subject: [ancient_waterways_ society] Fw: SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time"
To: ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com
Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 12:29 PM

FYI;  This is a highly anticipated upcoming presentation.

--- On Tue, 9/9/08, SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time" <dtwigg@spanishhill. com> wrote:
From: SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time" <dtwigg@spanishhill. com>
Subject: SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time"
To: v_barrows@yahoo. com
Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 10:13 AM

SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time"

Link to SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time"

Posted: 08 Sep 2008 07:28 PM CDT

SRAC and the Andaste Chapter of PA Archaeology will be holding their joint meeting on Monday Sept 15th and Deb Twigg, executive director of SRAC will be presenting all the theories about the Gridstone found below Spanish Hill that she has been able to find from other research done on these stones.

This meeting is open and free to the public to attend!

Come and be a part of the research and discussion! (This one could really be a BIGGIE.)

Collectors are always invited to bring pieces from their collections to share and discuss!

Hope to see you there!





#624 From: "Susan" <beldingenglish@...>
Date: Wed Sep 10, 2008 3:28 am
Subject: Vince's links are OK
beldingenglish
Send Email Send Email
 
Sorry Vince and all,

The links are fine.

   Nationalizing Cahokia. How does that sit with some of you? Steve Garcia
grew up near there. I am curious to hear what Vince,  Steve, and others
here think of federal government management of archaeological sites,
museums, etc. MSE

--- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Susan English
<beldingenglish@...> wrote:
>
> Vince,
> It may be my mistake, but I was unable to copy and paste either link.
> Perhaps when you paste in a web address, I suggest hitting enter just
past the link and it will highlight. Then you and we can click into the
sites instead of having to paste them. Regardless, thanks for including
the group here in your interesting work, Vince.
> My apologies to the group if the sites Vince put in are OK.
> Susan


> SuzEnglish@...
>
> --- On Tue, 9/9/08, Vincent Barrows v_barrows@... wrote:
>
> From: Vincent Barrows v_barrows@...
> Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Fw: SRAC "River, Rocks, and
Time"
> To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 10:10 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Good News to share about the Cahoki Mounds: U of I is proposing
transfer to Federal Government Control. Clearly the State of Illinois
cannot properly take care of the site - as demonstrated by their
destruction of Monks Mound.
>
> http://www.stltoday .com/stltoday/ news/stories. nsf/illinoisnews
/story/4C1D8E635 C4BEAB6862574AE0 01225C1?OpenDocu ment
>
> Vince
>
> --- On Tue, 9/9/08, Vincent Barrows v_barrows@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
> From: Vincent Barrows v_barrows@yahoo. com>
> Subject: [ancient_waterways_ society] Fw: SRAC "River, Rocks, and
Time"
> To: ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com
> Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 12:29 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> FYI;  This is a highly anticipated upcoming presentation.
>
> --- On Tue, 9/9/08, SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time" dtwigg@spanishhill.
com> wrote:
>
> From: SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time" dtwigg@spanishhill. com>
> Subject: SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time"
> To: v_barrows@yahoo. com
> Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 10:13 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time"
>
>
>
>
>
> Monday Sept 15th - All About Our Gridstone and Others Found at Mound
Sites
> Posted: 08 Sep 2008 07:28 PM CDT
> SRAC and the Andaste Chapter of PA Archaeology will be holding their
joint meeting on Monday Sept 15th and Deb Twigg, executive director of
SRAC will be presenting all the theories about the Gridstone found below
Spanish Hill that she has been able to find from other research done on
these stones.
>
> This meeting is open and free to the public to attend!
>
> Come and be a part of the research and discussion! (This one could
really be a BIGGIE.)
>
> Collectors are always invited to bring pieces from their collections
to share and discuss!
>
> Hope to see you there!
>
>
>
>
> You are subscribed to email updates from SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time"
> To stop receiving these emails, you may unsubscribe now.
> Email Delivery powered by FeedBurner
>
> Inbox too full? Subscribe to the feed version of SRAC "River, Rocks,
and Time" in a feed reader.
>
> If you prefer to unsubscribe via postal mail, write to: SRAC "River,
Rocks, and Time", c/o FeedBurner, 20 W Kinzie, 9th Floor, Chicago IL USA
60610
>

#626 From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
Date: Tue Sep 30, 2008 4:13 am
Subject: Re: Vince's links are OK
yacrispyubetcha
Send Email Send Email
 
It comes down to Which is the lesser of two evils....
With State protocols, and this applies to MN, CA or any other State i've worked
in/with/whatever...there will always be lack of funding and haphazard scientific
methodology if not blatant ignorance of what constitutes pre- or Historical site
awareness. BUT... any good scientist with credentials would be allowed to tackle
the projects with their own philosophies intact and able to voice their opinions
about what they think they've found... especially/or even if it means exposing
the Diffusionist POV.

Federally managed sites nearly automatically get fenced, blocked off from study
by anyone the Gov boys think might interpret anything that does not match the
USGovt paradigms of what "History" is. ie Columbus first, Bering Bridge, Clovis
barrier and certainly no Middle Eastern influence within North America prior to
the 1500's. No Hebrew, no Arabs, no Persians, no Mithraic Egyptians (regardless
of what Gloria Farley had to reveal). If anyone did any archaeology it would be
with sterile blinders on and no outside speculations on Old Wld contact.
Otherwise their reports would never see the light of day and the incriminating
artifacts would get as lost as Indiana Jones' Arc Box.

The watered, mown, managed, captive lawn always looks greener, is my cautionary
advice. The grass may be browner on the open range, but there's freedom to go
where the mind leads. You have the freedom to squak and write public letters to
the Senator in a State system. There are no recourses or alternatives under
Federal rule, than their restrictions.

my thots
-chris


--- On Tue, 9/9/08, Susan <beldingenglish@...> wrote:

> From: Susan <beldingenglish@...>
> Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Vince's links are OK
> To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 10:28 PM
> Sorry Vince and all,
>
> The links are fine.
>
>   Nationalizing Cahokia. How does that sit with some of
> you? Steve Garcia
> grew up near there. I am curious to hear what Vince,
> Steve, and others
> here think of federal government management of
> archaeological sites,
> museums, etc. MSE
>
> --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Susan
> English
> <beldingenglish@...> wrote:
> >
> > Vince,
> > It may be my mistake, but I was unable to copy and
> paste either link.
> > Perhaps when you paste in a web address, I suggest
> hitting enter just
> past the link and it will highlight. Then you and we can
> click into the
> sites instead of having to paste them. Regardless, thanks
> for including
> the group here in your interesting work, Vince.
> > My apologies to the group if the sites Vince put in
> are OK.
> > Susan
>
>
> > SuzEnglish@...
> >
> > --- On Tue, 9/9/08, Vincent Barrows v_barrows@...
> wrote:
> >
> > From: Vincent Barrows v_barrows@...
> > Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Fw: SRAC
> "River, Rocks, and
> Time"
> > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 10:10 PM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Good News to share about the Cahoki Mounds: U of I is
> proposing
> transfer to Federal Government Control. Clearly the State
> of Illinois
> cannot properly take care of the site - as demonstrated by
> their
> destruction of Monks Mound.
> >
> > http://www.stltoday .com/stltoday/ news/stories.
> nsf/illinoisnews
> /story/4C1D8E635 C4BEAB6862574AE0 01225C1?OpenDocu ment
> >
> > Vince
> >
> > --- On Tue, 9/9/08, Vincent Barrows v_barrows@yahoo.
> com> wrote:
> >
> > From: Vincent Barrows v_barrows@yahoo. com>
> > Subject: [ancient_waterways_ society] Fw: SRAC
> "River, Rocks, and
> Time"
> > To: ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com
> > Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 12:29 PM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > FYI;  This is a highly anticipated upcoming
> presentation.
> >
> > --- On Tue, 9/9/08, SRAC "River, Rocks, and
> Time" dtwigg@spanishhill.
> com> wrote:
> >
> > From: SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time"
> dtwigg@spanishhill. com>
> > Subject: SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time"
> > To: v_barrows@yahoo. com
> > Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 10:13 AM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time"
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Monday Sept 15th - All About Our Gridstone and Others
> Found at Mound
> Sites
> > Posted: 08 Sep 2008 07:28 PM CDT
> > SRAC and the Andaste Chapter of PA Archaeology will be
> holding their
> joint meeting on Monday Sept 15th and Deb Twigg, executive
> director of
> SRAC will be presenting all the theories about the
> Gridstone found below
> Spanish Hill that she has been able to find from other
> research done on
> these stones.
> >
> > This meeting is open and free to the public to attend!
> >
> > Come and be a part of the research and discussion!
> (This one could
> really be a BIGGIE.)
> >
> > Collectors are always invited to bring pieces from
> their collections
> to share and discuss!
> >
> > Hope to see you there!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > You are subscribed to email updates from SRAC
> "River, Rocks, and Time"
> > To stop receiving these emails, you may unsubscribe
> now.
> > Email Delivery powered by FeedBurner
> >
> > Inbox too full? Subscribe to the feed version of SRAC
> "River, Rocks,
> and Time" in a feed reader.
> >
> > If you prefer to unsubscribe via postal mail, write
> to: SRAC "River,
> Rocks, and Time", c/o FeedBurner, 20 W Kinzie, 9th
> Floor, Chicago IL USA
> 60610
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>     (Yahoo! ID required)
>
>
> mailto:ancient_waterways_society-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
>

#627 From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
Date: Tue Sep 30, 2008 5:17 am
Subject: SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time" GRIDS pt 1
yacrispyubetcha
Send Email Send Email
 
PLEASE FILL ME IN!! :-D
What are the going theories about these grids??
See attached. We (The Equinox Project; TEP) have lots of them going on at the
INY-272 inscription site in CA.
>   http://equinox-project.com   <
I found and photographed #QM254 myself.
Since Yahoo only lets me attach 5 pix per send, what i have to share on this
matter will take more than that. So watch for Grids Pt 2.

#254, which i call "my grid" with some sense of possession, LOOKS like a loose
tablet, but is actually part of a huge, buried boulder and is going nowhere.
Which is a good thing. Most of the ingravings at Inyo are Sun-Specific. They
interact with the surrounding boulders and landscape in a dance of gnomen
shadows and light daggers. A moved engraving is a dead one, devoid of telling
anything more than that it is a rock with lines on it. Left in position, there
is the potential that it will someday reveal a day-count for some purpose, like
an sundial that runs by months, not a day.

Or it may have something to do with sighting from that specific position of the
worship enclave upon the stars or lunar movements. The whole site is so complex,
having developed over 2 millennia, that we can't be sure what all it contains
unless someone were to live up there 24/7-12.

I've personally been thinking these grids being found in various locations may
have something to do with the calculation methods seen pan Mexico-S.Am Andes,
showing trade connections and construction calculations with those
civilizations, too. This calculation system is known as the Yupana Count.
Attachments to explain that also included in pt 2.

But also, since a lot of the grids at Inyo are spaced out to the number 6, one
way or another, and the bulk of the Site there deals with calculating the solar
calendar based on the Equinox, i'm thinking 6 months between Equinoxes or
Solstices??... just a brainstorm speculation up in the air.

Also it must be noted there are a lot of Arabic and Semitic notations at the INY
site, and Arabic math went thru a 6-Base phase before adopting the India-system
of 10 Base. One wonders if the math was 6-Based because of the calendar months
or if the months finally settled down to an even 12 because of the Math. Or if
there was any correlation at all in that manner. Ach, again, no basis other than
intuitional guessing.

What's the scoop on the Grid Stone talked about at SRAC?
Where is "Spanish Hill"? Who is Deb Twigg?
What ideas are being suggested for that stone?
An inquiring mind wants to know! lol

-chris


--- On Tue, 9/9/08, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...> wrote:

From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Fw: SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time"
To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 11:29 AM

FYI;  This is a highly anticipated upcoming presentation.

--- On Tue, 9/9/08, SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time" <dtwigg@...>
wrote:

From: SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time" <dtwigg@...>
Subject: SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time"
To: v_barrows@...
Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 10:13 AM

#628 From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
Date: Tue Sep 30, 2008 5:44 am
Subject: SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time" Grids pt 2
yacrispyubetcha
Send Email Send Email
 
On the attached composite shot of 'my grid' #254, i show a couple of different ways 6 might have been counted off on the grid, depending on which square or space a person started counting on or from.
 
The other attachments concern the Yupana Count system and some examples of it. One website i found seemed to connect the Yupana with the Quipus counting method, which employed knots on strings. To my knowledge, that process was last said to be 'lost' and nobody knew how the Quipus was used? Or has more been found on that? Would the sketch from the 1700 be a clue to somebody who is a puzzle solver if the two systems reflected eachother somehow? Ah well. Now i AM getting off topic.
 
The black Tablar de Multiplicacion is a photo shared from the files of Bernardo Victor Biados Yacovazzo, professor of Anthropology at St.Francis Asizi University, La Paz, Bolivia and co-founder of
OIIB - Omega Institute Investigations . Bolivia
INTI - NonGovernmental Organizacion . Bolivia 
 
 
The grids we are familiar with in N.Am and Yupana from Central and South Am, however, could seem to have possible connections?
-chris

--- On Tue, 9/9/08, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...> wrote:
From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Fw: SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time"
To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 11:29 AM

FYI;  This is a highly anticipated upcoming presentation.

--- On Tue, 9/9/08, SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time" <dtwigg@...> wrote:
From: SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time" <dtwigg@...>
Subject: SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time"
To: v_barrows@...
Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 10:13 AM

SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time"

Link to SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time"

Monday Sept 15th - All About Our Gridstone and Others Found at Mound Sites

Posted: 08 Sep 2008 07:28 PM CDT

SRAC and the Andaste Chapter of PA Archaeology will be holding their joint meeting on Monday Sept 15th and Deb Twigg, executive director of SRAC will be presenting all the theories about the Gridstone found below Spanish Hill that she has been able to find from other research done on these stones.

This meeting is open and free to the public to attend!

Come and be a part of the research and discussion! (This one could really be a BIGGIE.)

Collectors are always invited to bring pieces from their collections to share and discuss!

Hope to see you there!



#629 From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
Date: Tue Sep 30, 2008 6:02 am
Subject: Re: Re: Faces from the past : a photo essay
yacrispyubetcha
Send Email Send Email
 
Yo Vince!
Where did this disc come from!??
 
If the link from the Photobucket didn't work, the photo is attached.
 
Is it Nat American or from the Middle East?
 
It reminds me so much of the astrolabe-discs William works with. Could these be pictograms of The Four Winds (ie directions) or perhaps drawings of perceived constellations located at the four corners of the sky?
 
The one has a spiked helmet and desert-travel scarves. The others could as easily be Tuag camel riders with their turbans. Might a Native person be commemorating the appearance of Strange Visitors in their village?
 
-chris


--- On Sun, 9/7/08, Susan <beldingenglish@...> wrote:
From: Susan <beldingenglish@...>
Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Faces from the past : a photo essay
To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, September 7, 2008, 10:17 PM

Vince,
Thanks for sending the link below...I am also inserting the Marburg72 link (not sure what Marburg means) that your Faces of the Past is also connected to. Are all photos within the links from your collection that you are cataloguing along with stone tablets? I clicked onto the photos and did not see specific descriptions, dates, sites where each was found....unless I am not clicking in the right place.
I wonder if you could you introduce the sites, for the archived posts here and then put them into the Links or photos section, for reference purposes. 
Thanks again, Vince. 

--- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...> wrote:
>
> http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/Faces%20of%20the%20Past/
>


#630 From: "Susan" <beldingenglish@...>
Date: Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:30 pm
Subject: Re: SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time" GRIDS pt 1
beldingenglish
Send Email Send Email
 

Chris and All,

Chris,
 
Thanks for the four posts and great photographs.  Not sure if what you are referring to by 'grid' extends beyond the visual patterning of the artifacts. I believe Pam Giese from this group has mentioned the term in previous analyses of ancient sites and symbolism.  I have seen the term brought up in discussions of ley lines and other geological or geographical contexts. My apologies that my knowledge base is wimpy and comments often elementary in response to thought-provoking posts  such as yours, Chris.  Fortunately that is why we are a group here, more self-governing than most Yahoo message groups, with members of diverse backgrounds and localities.  I hope people feel free to post ideas, research and respectful comments to each other at this fairly broad-based web site.   I appreciate the time you and others take to make thoughtfulm comprehensive analyses and personal comments on significant subjects to this small, yet dedicated group.
 
The reorganized Ancient Earthworks Society listed our web site in one of their informational letters recently. AES has interest in forming a message board/web site, and several emailed they were going to read posts at our site for awhile before deciding whether they'd invest time in their own. 
 
Retired engineering professor Dr. James Scherz who has long surveyed ancient earthworks and waterways for Native American groups and others was a founder of the Ancient Earthworks research group, of which host MinnesotaStan and I are members and where the idea of the AWS web group began several years ago. Prof. Scherz' research was the main inspiration for the term "Ancient Waterways Society".  Jim has said more than once that probably all ancient earthworks, stoneworks are along or near an ancient waterway. He and I do not believe information on ancient earthworks, petroglyphs, and stoneworks to be off-topic with old or ancient waterways.  I am always be checking maps and terrainne for signs of current or former waterways, erosion, water markings, 'mooring stones', etc. Who looking for 'diffusion' among ancient cultures and sites does not find it wise to always be looking for signs of trans-continental,  even intercontinental waterway trade and migration possibliities?
 
Below, I am re-listing the Equinox Project web site you included in your posts, which it looks as though you are part of the intriguing group: http://www.equinox-project.com/
My mom and siblings moved to San Bernadino County decades ago, so I am somewhat familiar with the adjoining Inyo County next door, which includes the highest Sierra Nevada peak of Mt. Whitney and lowest terraine in the state at Death Valley.  I'd be interested in further analyses on the symbology of the photos there and on the Equinox Project. For those who need visuals and are looking for more background information on stoneworks/art works from the sitenear the sites Chris listed, top of the Equinox Project web site is a ten minute videotape, "Intro to INY-272" by Roderick Schmidt:
 
Top of the Equinox Project page has numerous other topics.  Chris, the sun signs in the videotape and article "An Ancient Zodiac from Inyo" by Dr. Barry Fell might be of great interest to research the THOR group is doing, if you have not already sent the site. (Chris, Vince, Rick, Pam, myself and others from this site are also members of William Smith's
THOR/Ohio Rock group).  A number of retired engineers are part of that group which oftentimes works out of an 'engineering lab' doing extensive work on sun symbols and ancient navigation:   http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/thor-thehuntersohiorock/
 
Susan

--- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...> wrote:
>
> PLEASE FILL ME IN!! :-D
> What are the going theories about these grids??
> See attached. We (The Equinox Project; TEP) have lots of them going on at the INY-272 inscription site in CA.
> >   http://equinox-project.com   <
> I found and photographed #QM254 myself.
> Since Yahoo only lets me attach 5 pix per send, what i have to share on this matter will take more than that. So watch for Grids Pt 2.
>
> #254, which i call "my grid" with some sense of possession, LOOKS like a loose tablet, but is actually part of a huge, buried boulder and is going nowhere. Which is a good thing. Most of the ingravings at Inyo are Sun-Specific. They interact with the surrounding boulders and landscape in a dance of gnomen shadows and light daggers. A moved engraving is a dead one, devoid of telling anything more than that it is a rock with lines on it. Left in position, there is the potential that it will someday reveal a day-count for some purpose, like an sundial that runs by months, not a day.
>
> Or it may have something to do with sighting from that specific position of the worship enclave upon the stars or lunar movements. The whole site is so complex, having developed over 2 millennia, that we can't be sure what all it contains unless someone were to live up there 24/7-12.
>
> I've personally been thinking these grids being found in various locations may have something to do with the calculation methods seen pan Mexico-S.Am Andes, showing trade connections and construction calculations with those civilizations, too. This calculation system is known as the Yupana Count. Attachments to explain that also included in pt 2.
>
> But also, since a lot of the grids at Inyo are spaced out to the number 6, one way or another, and the bulk of the Site there deals with calculating the solar calendar based on the Equinox, i'm thinking 6 months between Equinoxes or Solstices??... just a brainstorm speculation up in the air.
>
> Also it must be noted there are a lot of Arabic and Semitic notations at the INY site, and Arabic math went thru a 6-Base phase before adopting the India-system of 10 Base. One wonders if the math was 6-Based because of the calendar months or if the months finally settled down to an even 12 because of the Math. Or if there was any correlation at all in that manner. Ach, again, no basis other than intuitional guessing.
>
> What's the scoop on the Grid Stone talked about at SRAC?
> Where is "Spanish Hill"? Who is Deb Twigg?
> What ideas are being suggested for that stone?
> An inquiring mind wants to know! lol
>
> -chris
>
>
> --- On Tue, 9/9/08, Vincent Barrows v_barrows@... wrote:
>
> From: Vincent Barrows v_barrows@...
> Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Fw: SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time"
> To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 11:29 AM
>
> FYI;  This is a highly anticipated upcoming presentation.
>
> --- On Tue, 9/9/08, SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time" dtwigg@... wrote:
>
> From: SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time" dtwigg@...
> Subject: SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time"
> To: v_barrows@...
> Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 10:13 AM
>

#631 From: "Rick Osmon" <ozman@...>
Date: Wed Oct 1, 2008 2:47 pm
Subject: Re: SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time" Grids pt 2
ozmanusaa
Send Email Send Email
 
Hi Chris

Just real quick, as I'm in the middle of something and must keep at it.

The quipis are now known to represent much more than counting. The color
of the thread, the direction of the looping, the length of the thread
all had meaning. To the Inca,  quipi was a veritable  encyclopedia. Just
as an intuitive thing, perhaps someone who is proficient with sign
language should try to interpret it...

If there was contact (like there was another possibility!) between the
Andes and the Mississippi Valley, there was likely some kind of "Rosetta
Stone". If we get lucky...(see Edison's definition of invention).

Best

Oz


--- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Chris Patenaude
<yacrispyubetcha@...> wrote:
>
> On the attached composite shot of 'my grid' #254, i show a couple of
different ways 6 might have been counted off on the grid, depending on
which square or space a person started counting on or from.
>
> The other attachments concern the Yupana Count system and some
examples of it. One website i found seemed to connect the Yupana with
the Quipus counting method, which employed knots on strings. To my
knowledge, that process was last said to be 'lost' and nobody knew how
the Quipus was used? Or has more been found on that? Would the sketch
from the 1700 be a clue to somebody who is a puzzle solver if the two
systems reflected eachother somehow? Ah well. Now i AM getting off
topic.
>
> The black Tablar de Multiplicacion is a photo shared from the files of
Bernardo Victor Biados Yacovazzo, professor of Anthropology at
St.Francis Asizi University, La Paz, Bolivia and co-founder of
> OIIB - Omega Institute Investigations . Bolivia
> INTI - NonGovernmental Organizacion . Bolivia
>
>
> The grids we are familiar with in N.Am and Yupana from Central and
South Am, however, could seem to have possible connections?
> -chris
>
> --- On Tue, 9/9/08, Vincent Barrows v_barrows@... wrote:
>
> From: Vincent Barrows v_barrows@...
> Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Fw: SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time"
> To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 11:29 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> FYI;  This is a highly anticipated upcoming presentation.
>
> --- On Tue, 9/9/08, SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time" dtwigg@... wrote:
>
> From: SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time" dtwigg@...
> Subject: SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time"
> To: v_barrows@...
> Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 10:13 AM
>
>
>
>
>
> #yiv2064388299 #yiv867244694 h1 a:hover
{background-color:#888;color:#fff important;}
>
> #yiv2064388299 #yiv867244694 div#emailbody table#itemcontentlist tr td
div ul {
> list-style-type:square;padding-left:1em;}
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>
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>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time"
>
>
>
>
>
> Monday Sept 15th - All About Our Gridstone and Others Found at Mound
Sites
>
> Posted: 08 Sep 2008 07:28 PM CDT
>
> SRAC and the Andaste Chapter of PA Archaeology will be holding their
joint meeting on Monday Sept 15th and Deb Twigg, executive director of
SRAC will be presenting all the theories about the Gridstone found below
Spanish Hill that she has been able to find from other research done on
these stones.
>
> This meeting is open and free to the public to attend!
>
> Come and be a part of the research and discussion! (This one could
really be a BIGGIE.)
>
> Collectors are always invited to bring pieces from their collections
to share and discuss!
>
> Hope to see you there!
>
>
>
>
> You are subscribed to email updates from SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time"
> To stop receiving these emails, you may unsubscribe now.
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