PLEASE FILL ME IN!! :-D
What are the going theories about these grids??
See attached. We (The Equinox Project; TEP) have lots of them going on at the
INY-272 inscription site in CA.
>   http://equinox-project.com   <
I found and photographed #QM254 myself.
Since Yahoo only lets me attach 5 pix per send, what i have to share on this
matter will take more than that. So watch for Grids Pt 2.

#254, which i call "my grid" with some sense of possession, LOOKS like a loose
tablet, but is actually part of a huge, buried boulder and is going nowhere.
Which is a good thing. Most of the ingravings at Inyo are Sun-Specific. They
interact with the surrounding boulders and landscape in a dance of gnomen
shadows and light daggers. A moved engraving is a dead one, devoid of telling
anything more than that it is a rock with lines on it. Left in position, there
is the potential that it will someday reveal a day-count for some purpose, like
an sundial that runs by months, not a day.

Or it may have something to do with sighting from that specific position of the
worship enclave upon the stars or lunar movements. The whole site is so complex,
having developed over 2 millennia, that we can't be sure what all it contains
unless someone were to live up there 24/7-12.

I've personally been thinking these grids being found in various locations may
have something to do with the calculation methods seen pan Mexico-S.Am Andes,
showing trade connections and construction calculations with those
civilizations, too. This calculation system is known as the Yupana Count.
Attachments to explain that also included in pt 2.

But also, since a lot of the grids at Inyo are spaced out to the number 6, one
way or another, and the bulk of the Site there deals with calculating the solar
calendar based on the Equinox, i'm thinking 6 months between Equinoxes or
Solstices??... just a brainstorm speculation up in the air.

Also it must be noted there are a lot of Arabic and Semitic notations at the INY
site, and Arabic math went thru a 6-Base phase before adopting the India-system
of 10 Base. One wonders if the math was 6-Based because of the calendar months
or if the months finally settled down to an even 12 because of the Math. Or if
there was any correlation at all in that manner. Ach, again, no basis other than
intuitional guessing.

What's the scoop on the Grid Stone talked about at SRAC?
Where is "Spanish Hill"? Who is Deb Twigg?
What ideas are being suggested for that stone?
An inquiring mind wants to know! lol

-chris


--- On Tue, 9/9/08, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...> wrote:

From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Fw: SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time"
To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 11:29 AM

FYI;  This is a highly anticipated upcoming presentation.

--- On Tue, 9/9/08, SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time" <dtwigg@...>
wrote:

From: SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time" <dtwigg@...>
Subject: SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time"
To: v_barrows@...
Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 10:13 AM

Chris and All,

Hi Chris

Just real quick, as I'm in the middle of something and must keep at it.

The quipis are now known to represent much more than counting. The color
of the thread, the direction of the looping, the length of the thread
all had meaning. To the Inca,  quipi was a veritable  encyclopedia. Just
as an intuitive thing, perhaps someone who is proficient with sign
language should try to interpret it...

If there was contact (like there was another possibility!) between the
Andes and the Mississippi Valley, there was likely some kind of "Rosetta
Stone". If we get lucky...(see Edison's definition of invention).

Best

Oz


--- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Chris Patenaude
<yacrispyubetcha@...> wrote:
>
> On the attached composite shot of 'my grid' #254, i show a couple of
different ways 6 might have been counted off on the grid, depending on
which square or space a person started counting on or from.
>
> The other attachments concern the Yupana Count system and some
examples of it. One website i found seemed to connect the Yupana with
the Quipus counting method, which employed knots on strings. To my
knowledge, that process was last said to be 'lost' and nobody knew how
the Quipus was used? Or has more been found on that? Would the sketch
from the 1700 be a clue to somebody who is a puzzle solver if the two
systems reflected eachother somehow? Ah well. Now i AM getting off
topic.
>
> The black Tablar de Multiplicacion is a photo shared from the files of
Bernardo Victor Biados Yacovazzo, professor of Anthropology at
St.Francis Asizi University, La Paz, Bolivia and co-founder of
> OIIB - Omega Institute Investigations . Bolivia
> INTI - NonGovernmental Organizacion . Bolivia
>
>
> The grids we are familiar with in N.Am and Yupana from Central and
South Am, however, could seem to have possible connections?
> -chris
>
> --- On Tue, 9/9/08, Vincent Barrows v_barrows@... wrote:
>
> From: Vincent Barrows v_barrows@...
> Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Fw: SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time"
> To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 11:29 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> FYI;  This is a highly anticipated upcoming presentation.
>
> --- On Tue, 9/9/08, SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time" dtwigg@... wrote:
>
> From: SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time" dtwigg@...
> Subject: SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time"
> To: v_barrows@...
> Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 10:13 AM
>
>
>
>
>
> #yiv2064388299 #yiv867244694 h1 a:hover
{background-color:#888;color:#fff important;}
>
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> list-style-type:square;padding-left:1em;}
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div li {
> margin-bottom:1em;margin-left:1em;}
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#yiv2064388299 #yiv867244694 table#itemcontentlist tr td a:visited,
#yiv2064388299 #yiv867244694 table#itemcontentlist tr td a:active {
> color:#000099;font-weight:bold;text-decoration:none;}
>
> #yiv2064388299 #yiv867244694 img {border:none;}
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time"
>
>
>
>
>
> Monday Sept 15th - All About Our Gridstone and Others Found at Mound
Sites
>
> Posted: 08 Sep 2008 07:28 PM CDT
>
> SRAC and the Andaste Chapter of PA Archaeology will be holding their
joint meeting on Monday Sept 15th and Deb Twigg, executive director of
SRAC will be presenting all the theories about the Gridstone found below
Spanish Hill that she has been able to find from other research done on
these stones.
>
> This meeting is open and free to the public to attend!
>
> Come and be a part of the research and discussion! (This one could
really be a BIGGIE.)
>
> Collectors are always invited to bring pieces from their collections
to share and discuss!
>
> Hope to see you there!
>
>
>
>
> You are subscribed to email updates from SRAC "River, Rocks, and Time"
> To stop receiving these emails, you may unsubscribe now.
> Email Delivery powered by FeedBurner
>
> Inbox too full?  Subscribe to the feed version of SRAC "River, Rocks,
and Time" in a feed reader.
>
> If you prefer to unsubscribe via postal mail, write to: SRAC "River,
Rocks, and Time", c/o FeedBurner, 20 W Kinzie, 9th Floor, Chicago IL USA
60610
>

OK.... i've been lookin at it more closely and realized there are 5 faces, not
4. Negates 'winds', Directional influences, sky constellations etc.
I am leaning more strongly towards it being a documentation by a local Native of
exotic visitors, traders, contactees from circa 900-1280 CE.

Pulling apart the elements, we have just-prior to and early Islamic, Silk-Road
region helmets as catagorized by many websites. A few prime are listed here to
prove the point.

The most detailed example on the spindle stone is a spiked "Shishak" style with
draping maile and side cheek protectors.
>   http://www.geocities.com/normlaw/page13b.html   <
>   http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505/page13.html   <

See Attached "Picture1273" and "Picture1273 Traced".

Of the other four faces, two are pictured completely with close-domed "round"
helmets with their wrap-around turbans. They knot at the back of the head and
the scarf-ends are tucked under the wrap-band to drape past the ear and shade
the neck. (See corroborating photo attached, "Body Armor" lifted from
>   http://www.sfusd.k12.ca.us/schwww/sch618/War/WarArmor.html   < )

Of the other two faces, one may actually be an attempt to depict a faceshield...
there is no eye-dot to enliven or inhabit the shape. It is shown without a
crown, just an empty eyehole and stripes as if indicating plates, not skin.  The
fifth head seems to be bare except for a hairline or underscarf, ie the person
with helmet taken off. The artist is trying to say look, this is covering their
faces! They are men, not gods.

The four "live" heads have eyes that are outlined as purposely diamond or 'cut
out' as if they are peering thru eye-holes of a faceplate or noseguards. The
artist is fully able to create a smooth arc if (s)he so pleased, there are
gliding arc-strokes all over the forms. If (s)he wanted to show the eyes normal,
it would have been done. Something is wierd, and spooky about the eyes peering
out from behind something, and the artist portrayed that quite well.

To confirm this, two forms (one turbaned and the bare-headed one) have a
distinct line coming from the bridge of the nose to the corners of the mouth,
indicating a mask-shield that opens up for the mouth & lips. The other turbaned
fellow has a line straight back from the eye, as if to show the mask was tied
onto his face.

Explore these other sites to see further examples of this Old World style of
head-gear from the indicated timeframe. From the book titled "Medieval Russian
Armies 1250-1500" (V.Shapkovsky & David Nicolle)it reminds us "After disasterous
defeats at the hands of the Mongols in the 13th century, the Russian
princepalities became vassels of the Khans of the Golden Horde for more than 200
years." The armies of Southern Russia, bordering and including the Silk Road
routes (in the fashion of the Romans before them) adopted their Persian, Middle
Eastern and Islamic neighbors' helmet and armor styles. Lighter and more
functional in the warmer climates than the Euro full-body suits.

>   http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Helmet_Turkmenistan_Louvre_K3443.jpg
<

>  
http://books.google.com/books?id=00w3jXgmY1wC&pg=PA19&lpg=PA19&dq=ancient+helmet\
s+Islamic&source=web&ots=_r5F1fQP8m&sig=wTdTz6ZuvMbtKCXOgoCu2zkwCMI&hl=en&sa=X&o\
i=book_result&resnum=6&ct=result#PPA19,M1   <

>   http://www.alshindagah.com/marapr2006/islamic.html   <

>  
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~chrisandpeter/kirpichnikov_helmets/gallery.htm#03\
_gulbishe   <

>   http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505/   <

So were these visitors to Cahokia country early Persian Islamic
pioneers/explorers, Arabics, slightly later Russians, or possibly Chinese (whom
the Natives would not have found 'exotic' of face, just costume)? Regardless of
the Nationality, the headgear insists they came from the cosmopolitan thorofare
called the Silk Road of which many were itinerate explorers, merchants and
adventurers in order to seek out market advantages.

The stone could have been carved early on and passed down thru several
generations before being interred with the last owner. Or carved by the person
with whom it was buried later on in the Wickliffe history. (950-1350 CE) What
more logical place but Cahokia for the Travelers to have found their way?
Someone of some skill watched carefully and took their portraits with a talented
hand.

Vince, the subject matter forcludes a dating of BCE. One cannot class an era
solely on how deeply the etching was done. Any artisan will feel their material
and let it speak to them as to how it best wishes to be handled and worked. You
will find light and deep touches in any era, depending on the individual doing
the carving and the matrix taking the strokes.

I would almost suspect a bright, young person put it on a fishing net weight (a
weighted fire spindle would be a liability, not an aide to the process) in
reaction to seeing special characters on their visit to The Big City.  Or even
more likely, the sketches were placed on something more prized like a
cotton-spinning spindle and kept specially. This does not guarantee the carver's
gender, as both men and women spun fiber and wove fabrics, netting, blankets,
boltstrips in the Americas.

The one intriging element is that one turban-helmet fellow (I've traced his
scarf in yellow) is saying something. It is placed as a script-line in a balloon
between his mouth and the image of the empty face-shield. Dang if it doesn't
look like hand-scrawled Kufic. That may mess with my little daydream of the
rural youth visiting Town. Unless, as Barry Fell insists, there were Semitic
schools in session during those times, and the turbaned dignitaries were
resident mentors, teachers, not strangers. Then a Native 'rural' student, male
or female, might indeed be taught a few special Letters.

At that idea, i broke off writing and did some more surfing. YESS!
See attached Kufic example "BasmAllah". Reading right-to-left, is B-S-M-ALLAH...
and what ever else the phrase says. I'm not Muslim, so do not know what generic
litany line it may be. However, i've traced the letters (initiate)"A" and the
(terminal) "A" in red. The L-L(+connective diacritical loop)in blue.

Now look at the Picture Traced in the balloon in front of Yellow Head's mouth.
ALLAH!

Now go lay THAT at Smitty Wallace's doorstep and see her deny it! LOL
-c

--- On Wed, 10/1/08, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...> wrote:

From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
Subject: Re: [thor-thehuntersohiorock] Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Faces
from the past : a photo essay
To: thor-thehuntersohiorock@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, October 1, 2008, 8:19 PM


Yep, that disc/ spindle whirl artifact is from Wickliffe Mounds - on display at
their museum. It is similar to other faces from cahokia and also at the east st.
louis quarry site. That style of light engraving is archaic (between 7000 and
5000 years ago).
 
In my opinion the Burrows cave and michigan relics are from a different culture
than that which produced the faces on the disc.

I have never found anything like the relics of burrows cave and so I cannot
verify who made them.  I appreciate the work that Beverly Mosely did on
photographing the stones - looking at them as art objects and translating the
stories that they contain is more interesting to me than perpetuating the "hoax,
fraud, fake" story. That line of thought seems to be an effort to say "nothing
to see here, move along now".

My research indicates that the existance of such relics is similar to Kudurrus -
border stones from Mesopotamia that date to around 3000 years
ago. Another parallel is ancestor stones called Churingas from Australia. One
fact is the approx. location of burrows cave is directly east of Cahokia Mounds
(aligned with the equinox). Native cultures from around the world did store
their ancestral stones in groups, in caves.
 
my two cents.

Vince

--- On Wed, 10/1/08, Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...> wrote:

From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
Subject: Re: [thor-thehuntersohiorock] Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Faces
from the past : a photo essay
To: thor-thehuntersohiorock@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, October 1, 2008, 6:34 PM









Vince, answering from Thor's group, says it's from a registered mound and the
artifact has definite provenance.
But yeah. I'm always on the suspicious side of anything that looks like the
Burrows "collection" . Until Mays actually proves it exists. They're digging
now, i hear. Haven't heard an update for the summer, tho. I'm a bit more
isolated up here in MN, away from those projects.
 
Because of the Michigan Tablets collection, (which i feel has far more
legitimacy since the finders came from a wide region of coptic settlement and
the script is translateable) i will not write off either collections
'completely' until more dust settles. Denials are just as speculative as claims
until proof is shown. In both cases, i will hold the mindset that there were
some legit artifacts found. More in the MI Tab's case than Burrows. Copies and
frauds were counterfeited in each case, human greed will play itself out. But
less so in the MI than Burrows. imo.
 
Both collections will have mixture of authentic and hoax in the end, i suspect.
But it would be foolish to throw the Baby out with the Bathwater without careful
tests that mayhap won't evolve in technology until the future. Nuclear Resonancy
Spectrometry and Topical Flourescence may hold answers when they are refined
better. Time will tell.
-c

--- On Wed, 10/1/08, ZHstar@... <ZHstar@...> wrote:

From: ZHstar@... <ZHstar@...>
Subject: Re: [thor-thehuntersohi orock] Re: [ancient_waterways_ society] Re:
Faces from the past : a photo essay
To: thor-thehuntersohio rock@yahoogroups .com
Date: Wednesday, October 1, 2008, 2:10 PM


Chris-
     That disc looks like something from Burrows Cave!
Zena


-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@ yahoo.com>
To: ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com
Cc: thor-thehuntersohio rock@yahoogroups .com
Sent: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 2:02 am
Subject: [thor-thehuntersohi orock] Re: [ancient_waterways_ society] Re: Faces
from the past : a photo essay











Yo Vince!
Where did this disc come from!??
>   http://s243. photobucket. com/albums/ ff280/Marburg72/ Faces%20of%
20the%20Past/ ?action=view¤t=Picture1273 .jpg   <
 
If the link from the Photobucket didn't work, the photo is attached.
 
Is it Nat American or from the Middle East?
 
It reminds me so much of the astrolabe-discs William works with. Could these be
pictograms of The Four Winds (ie directions) or perhaps drawings of perceived
constellations located at the four corners of the sky?
 
The one has a spiked helmet and desert-travel scarves. The others could as
easily be Tuag camel riders with their turbans. Might a Native person be
commemorating the appearance of Strange Visitors in their village?
 
-chris


--- On Sun, 9/7/08, Susan <beldingenglish@ yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Susan <beldingenglish@ yahoo.com>
Subject: [ancient_waterways_ society] Re: Faces from the past : a photo essay
To: ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com
Date: Sunday, September 7, 2008, 10:17 PM



Vince,
Thanks for sending the link below...I am also inserting the Marburg72 link (not
sure what Marburg means) that your Faces of the Past is also connected to. Are
all photos within the links from your collection that you are cataloguing along
with stone tablets? I clicked onto the photos and did not see specific
descriptions, dates, sites where each was found....unless I am not clicking in
the right place.
I wonder if you could you introduce the sites, for the archived posts here and
then put them into the Links or photos section, for reference purposes. 
Thanks again, Vince. 
http://s243. photobucket. com/albums/ ff280/Marburg72/ Faces%20of% 20the%20Past/
http://s243. photobucket. com/albums/ ff280/Marburg72/

--- In ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com, Vincent Barrows
<v_barrows@.. .> wrote:
>
> http://s243. photobucket. com/albums/ ff280/Marburg72/ Faces%20of%
20the%20Past/
>



[Image Removed]



Find phone numbers fast with the New AOL Yellow Pages!

Perhaps y'all are up on this, but my Michigan contact Kevin Callaghan sent this
link which has me all excited....

-------- Original Message ------------

>just in case you have not seen this
>
>
http://www.prehistoricplanet.com/wv/features/petroglyphman/
index.htm   <

>Kevin

Programming, with buffet meals interspersed
* Friday 1:00 to 10:00 pm
* Saturday 9:00 am to 9:00 pm
* Sunday 9:00 am to noon
REGISTRATION Fees
Registration for full conference,
all programs & exhibits - $100
7 Meal package only $115.00/person including tax/tip
Mail checks to:
AAPS, PO box 216, Skandia MI 49885
Further info: phone Judy- 906-942-7865

Stan, Rick, and All,

The next Atlantic Conference is nearly two years away, but gives some of you from the Ancient Waterways Society and other groups plenty of time to plan for hopefully at least a week in Nova Scotia.  Nova Scotian member of our group here, Terry Deveau, generously offered again to lead several days of free post-conference tours of early historic/ancient and sacred sites throughout Nova Scotia.  Since so many from the Midwest were sponsoring, assisting with, or speaking at the conference (and made up the majority of US people attending the conference), one of the Sinclairs mentioned the possibility of a bus from the Midwest to and from Nova Scotia.  If they don't organize one, perhaps we could set one up ourselves. Imagine how much work and fun we could share together, maybe make a couple of field stops en route.

Please click on large photo of Mi'kmaq Chief Steve Augustine's photo at left of the Home Page under The Definitive Gathering of World Experts on the Possiblity of Early Trans-Atlantic Contact to view the brief YouTube video of the conference   Some of you may recognize a few friends from last October's THOR/MES/AAPS conference in Ohio, Ancient American conferences during the 80's in Utah, and other events in the States: http://www.atlanticconference.org/

Also updated since last month's conference at$ the top of their main web page, click "2008 Overview", "The Future".  Most of us assisting are sitting comfortably around the dinner tables in the third set of Photo Galleries from the conference. Hope to be having fresh lobster and lamb with many of you at the next one.  The Sinclairs said they will be much more in the backdrop next conference, but promised to fulfill my request for bagpipes.

Susan

also sent to THOR: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/thor-thehuntersohiorock/

All,

Sorry for the double posting earlier today. Thanks, Rick for forwarding Kathy Jacob's request to put Dr. Pellech's web site in our group; she is editor of Migration & Diffusion of Vienna, Austria. More detail about the site:

http://migration.steinwender.co.uk/aboutus.htm

Results of search states she has been working on cultural contacts and migrations for two decades, specializing in seafaring, maps,  astronomy, myths and symbols.  Many of her publications are in German (our host, MinnesotaStan is fluent in German because I recall him translating for Dr. Jim Scherz an extensive DVD program from Germany on transcontinnental diffusion.   I was unable to hear Pellech's talk at the 2007 conference in Ohio, but it should be on a conference DVD.

Pellech is also listed on a database w/a couple of articles in Archaeology & Symbolism: http://migration.steinwender.co.uk/menu_archaeology.htm    One in particular "Crossing the Atlantic in Early Times" might be particularly interesting to this group.

I will put the Migration & Diffusion site Rick listed into "Links" here soon as I get a chance as it very well relates to this group: http://www.migration-diffusion.info/

Kathy Jacobs had initially written me asking how  to put Pellech's web site into our group. She also brought up the artifact Vince and Chris P were discussing here and at THOR last week, and said she'd written Dr. Pellech thinking she might be interested. I told Kathy people get tired of my posts/forwardings and encouraged her to  join our group and relay personally what she'd said in her emails.  I also asked for clarification, was waiting word back, and she verified that the artifact she was referring to is that which Vince and Chris P were discussing last week. 

"...The disk from Wickliffe Mounds in Kentucky was the one that I forwarded the photo to Prof. Pellech.  She gave a presentation last year of her theories on ancient sea travel, and showed us some photos of what she believed to be boats and line drawings that described oceans currents that were painted on cave walls in northern Spain.  I thought the disk reminded me of those drawings, that is why I sent her the picture.

Again, I will continue to encourage Kathy Jacobs, Char Bruns, and Ted Sojka (Iowa) to join our list as I cannot do justice to the information they send me to include in our group.

Susan

--- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Osmon" <ozman@...> wrote:

 Investigating pre-Columbian contact, lost races, ancient astronomy,
navigation, and migration, cultural oddities, associated diffusion evidence
and the truly unexplainable.
>
> Hi All,
>
> Kathy Jacobs asked me to relay information about a newly revamped, important
> resource, a website by Dr. Christine Pellech. In the period from 2000 to
> 2005 24 journals entitled "Migration & Diffusion - an international journal"
> with 127 articles, written by 72 different authors, coming from 16 different
> countries have been published.Most of these papers will be published on the
> aforementioned website.
>
> Here's the url: http://www.migration-diffusion.info/. I'm also adding it to
> the links list for my show and those groups where I have those privelages.
>
> Dr. Pellech was a speaker at last year's AAAPF (now AAPS) conference.
>
> Enjoy
>
>
>
>
> Your host
>
> Rick Osmon, aka Oz
>
> http://oopaloopacafe.com to find great info about guests and previous shows
>
>
>
>
>
> http://blogtalkradio.com/oopa-loopa-cafe to listen to the live shows and
> join the chat
>
>
>
> Call in during show (646) 652-2720
>
>
>
> Mobile (not during live show, please) (812) 259-1102
>
>
>
> oz@...
>

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ExploringAncientMysteries/message/15389

New England Antiquities Research Association

.

.

http://www.archaeologyfieldwork.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=135

_______________________________

Susan

All,

I doubt member David Johnson will mind my inserting an email he sent me tonight, especially since it contains an open invitation for interested persons to visit their Old Copper Complex basement collection in Minnesota.  He also added some fine insights which relate well to old waterways and landscape of the mid-Archaic period.

Thanks, Dave.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Susan,

The Spiro Mounds piece that you reference is not shown on my website
as I do not consider it to be related to the Old Copper Complex.

The vast majority of our copper artifacts were found in close
proximity to rivers and lakes, as they were the highways of the
indigenous peoples of North America. The landscape as we see it today
was much different at the time of the Old Copper Complex beginning in
the middle-Archaic Period. Water levels were higher with rivers and
lakes larger. Forestation was different as well. It is no accident
that the earliest types of copper artifacts are found on ridges and
high ground in the Keweenaw Peninsula, more of the lower level land
of today was under water at that time.

For those interested in the Old Copper Complex our collection is open
to visitation. I can be contacted through my website.

Dave Johnson

I show up as AnitaStClair, my wife, because I'm on her yahoo account
to prevent spam to my work address.

I am, in fact, Steve St. Clair. I know a few folks here from the
Atlantic Conference and I'm just delighted to have received your
invitation to join.

Your group and the work you do is of great interest to myself and my
family. I feel like I know a good deal about you already from your two
cheerleaders, Susan E. and Terry D.

Here's to mysteries uncovered and secrets revealed.

Kind Regards,

Steve

Welcome, Steve. I am delighted you have become a member of our group.  I know Rick Osman, Terry Deveau, myself, and a few non-member onlookers (Lee Pennington, Wayne May, etc.) at Ancient Waterways Society were honored to be part of the Atlantic Conference this past August at St. Mary's University in Halifax, Nova Scotia, and undoubtedly will be very much involved in the next.  A good introduction to Steve and co-organizers of the Atlantic Conference is found top of the Home Page: "About Us": http://www.atlanticconference.org/AtlanticConference-2/aboutus.htm

The Atlantic Conference web site and continuous scientific research by dozens of scientists and dedicated explorers makes the Conference an ongoing one.  I sugggest anyone wishing to be involved click into the site periodically.

AWS member Terry Deveau led five days of post-conference field trips, already volunteered to do so again next conference in Nova Scotia. Terry's "2008 Overview" of the conference may be accessed top of the Home Page: http://www.atlanticconference.org/index.htm 

I see this evening the 6-DVD set of the Aug, 2008 Atlantic Conference speakers just became available at cost via the Home Page. Soon as the set arrives here I will be re-playing the conference at my home to several interested persons.  After that, anyone from this group wanting to borrow the set for two or three weeks, I'll be happy to send it to you if you pay return postage, or to the next requesting AWS member.

My apologies to you all here, that photos in Judi Rudebusch's Mooring/Marker stone article did not show up in my  post.  She sent her email address to the NSExplore group but said she does not know how to post a link of her article to web groups. She said she did not know how to join this group so I sent an invitation to her and several others, including Steve.  Maybe Judi will also join and keep us updated on her research.  I'd bet the bank Judi,  in lieu of her work with Valdimer from Iceland, will be part of the next NE coast Atlantic Conference. Perhaps will want to get involved in what seems to me would be an unprecedented cross-continental 'road trip' with those scientifically mapping and documenting early historic and ancient routes across ancient Upper Great Lakes and Canadian waterways to the NE Atlantic coast. The idea came to me flying over Niagara Falls and westward on the flight back from Halifax. Retired professor and filmmaker Lee Pennington said that to do this trip right would take at least two weeks-one way.  Perhaps the group could plan to meet interested East Coast Canadian and US researchers part way who would also be routing and mapping from their end.

This is still just in the idea stages, perhaps the trip would be better taken up by a university.  I said once before it would be like an inland Thor Heyerdahl-type excursion to demonstrate how many groups, cultures,  multiple purposes could have made suchs excursions over countless millinnea.  Those of us in the Mississippi Riverways-Great Lakes areas will of course 'push' the ancient or Old Copper Culture as one of the main draws to this once-remote part of the world. As this group well knows, waterways and water levels would have varied drastically and varyingly between "early historic", "ancient" times, and now.  The scientific group documenting would have to establish what the time periods would entail, then work with maps and people intimate with the land and waters along the way who know the transcontinental portages and water passages well....

Dr. Jim Scherz called tonight, is still surveying ancient sites along Lake Superior following the AAPS conference (which I missed this year) in Marquette.  He is intrigued by the possibilities of a future road trip by members of this group, since May has been talking about a trip in the spring to Lake Nippising the the Peterboro Petroglyphs with Jeffers Site (MN) investigator, engineer Chuck Bailey of Duluth who atttended the 3-day Ancient Waterays weekend in the Keweenaw Peninsula last May.  Scherz invited me accompany them and help survey.  A few Atlantic conference tribal members from that area offered invitations to anyone in their area of Ontario.  This could be a very mutual extension of some of the cooperative sharing  and good will that took place at the three day conference in Halifax.

Before closing here, Jim Scherz said he made up several dozen copies of a paper he sells through Ancient American Magazine Bookstore but he will be glad to give a copy to anyone here who is interested: "OLD WATER LEVELS & WATERWAYS-During the Ancient Copper Mining Era (about 3000 BC to 1000 BC)", by James P. Scherz, Prof. Emeritus, Dept. Of Civil and Environmental Engineering (Surveying and Mapping Section)
University of Wisconsin, July, 1999.  With Jim's permission a year or two ago I had copied and posted part of it into a discussion at the PreColumbian Inscriptions web site but will include it again here soon since it relates to many of the conversations here.

My apologies for being long-winded again here. Thanks again, Steve for signing on here, and especially for generous amounts of yourself that you put into the wonderful Atlantic Conference association, from your busy life in New York City.

Susan

--- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "anitastclair" <saintclair1398@...> wrote:
>
> I show up as AnitaStClair, my wife, because I'm on her yahoo account
> to prevent spam to my work address.
>
> I am, in fact, Steve St. Clair. I know a few folks here from the
> Atlantic Conference and I'm just delighted to have received your
> invitation to join.
>
> Your group and the work you do is of great interest to myself and my
> family. I feel like I know a good deal about you already from your two
> cheerleaders, Susan E. and Terry D.
>
> Here's to mysteries uncovered and secrets revealed.
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Steve
>

I'd like to greet another new member who also joined last night.  Margaret, you have signed on with a remarkable group with whom I am proud to have been affiliated the past few years.  MinnesotaStan set up the web site after a conversation we had prior to an Ancient Earthworks Society meeting at the UW-Madison campus a few years back,  thank goodness stays on as host.  I'd been loosely using the term from the work of Dr. Jim Scherz, Fred Rydholm, and Ancient American writers, and then hanging wooden signs up at campsites during travels around the country.  My second sign "Ancient Waterways Cafe" wafts in larger numbers of fireside conversants during mealtimes.

Judi Rudebusch, and David Hoffman who writes/gives talks frequently on "Ancient Waterways" have been wanting to join, but I couldn't recall how to to do so until discovering the "Invite" button left of the Home Page yesterday.

Some of you joined whom I did not know previously, but, until recently your Yahoo Profiles introduced each of you who filled one out and could be accessed under your postings.  Recently, from the four or five YahooGroups I belong to, it appears all Profile information was removed.  I created a new one myself this AM (mostly favorite affiliations) and hope members such as Marti in Washington State will re-do her Profile which included hundreds of photographs of breathtaking Native wilderness landscapes.  Now newcomers and oldtimers to this group are unable to know even first names, or that some of you live in places such as the SW US,  New Zealand, Canada, etc.  Any information of your choosing, associations, hobbies, and hopefully your nearest "ancient waterway" could be reestablished within your Profiles so that those who choose to do so can more easily  interconnect and intercommunicate.

As I recall, Margaret is an educator with an wide background of talents and is or has been affiliated with some of Chicago's most prestigious universities. Yet is a person of profound humility and heart who values highly the wise, esoteric teachings and natural sciences lived by people of many cultures which she comes across in her global interests.  One of her group affiliation near my area is the Hanwakan Center: http://www.hanwakan.org/About/about_hanwakan.html

I first met Margaret at an AAAPF conference in Big Bay, MIchigan a few years ago, I believe it was one I needed to camp/cook along a Lake Superior bear haven below Bay Cliff camp where the conference was held.  Margaret has had a longheld interest in very early explorers as well as Native peoples in the Americas.  Following that conference, I led the way ahead of Margaret in one car and writer Jay Wakefield from Washington State (How the Sungod Reached America) in his, and for at least an hour or two after darkness set in, got us all lost in Ford wilderness country north of L'Anse/Baraga, MI near Pequaming Point where some of the AAPS post conference visitors last week visited to see the ancient cairns on the Carmody property. Click two small photos bottom of page at this site, for possible future small group trip there by anyone interested from this group: http://www.canr.msu.edu/~baraga/staff/jim/photo.htm 

Margaret, Jay, and I never made it to the Point but managed to get over to talk into the night with researcher Ron Stiebe who lives south of the Pequaming/Picnic Point cairns along Keweenaw Bay of Lake Supeior north of the Father Baraga statue. (I own two copies of Ron Stiebe's Mystery People of the Cove-A History of the Lake Superior Ouinipegou which I can mail anyone wanting to borrow it.)

I assist with surveying yet can't figure out a compass and am still embarrased to have gotten Jay and Margaret lost, plus each of us probably went through half a tank of gas in wild Yooper country and we could have spent a cold October night outside. I am happy Margaret signed on here and thus, no hard feelings. Knowing some of Margaret's other interests, I'll bet the bank she is another who will be at the next Atlantic Conference where Native people of dozens of tribal affiliations are also at the helm throughout and with whom many of the Sinclairs/St. Claires are related by blood. 

I see Stan Sinclair just joined Ancient Waterways.  Welcome, Stan.  I will say more later but temperatures suddenly went over 50 degrees in C. Wisconsin and I need to finish putting up storm windows and plastic before dark and the next snowfall.

Welcome to Zena, from New York.  Glad to have you as a member. I believe
you are a NEARA member as are several here within this group.  I was
told you did excellent work in the 80's with ISAAC (sp?) based in
Georgia. I met you at an AAPS conference awhile back, unable to attend
the one in Marquette last weekend, but I hope someone from this group
will give a synopsis of the conference.  I was also looking for you at
the St. Mary's Univ. dormitory in August.  Should you attend the next
Atlantic Conference, I hope you will set up a display table with some of
your work.

All, Jim Scherz called from near Big Bay this AM, is still surveying
ancient sites near there nearly a week since the conference, will stop
here en route to Madison next week to read AWS posts and share post AAPS
Conference DVD's and material.  Jim said he still hasn't an operating
computer but finally has a Yahoo email address and will become a member
as has been  impressed by the work so many of you are doing and sharing
with others through this site.  He said Zena is one of his favorite
people and 'very solid' in her work with ancient Hebrew symbology.  I
know Dr. Cyclone Covey, professor of Ancient History at Wakefield
University included some of her work in his research, in particular, her
"calm reflection" in her analyses of Burrows Cave symbols.

I shall post part of the "Old Waterways" copper mining paper I'd
mentioned earlier that Jim had a dozen copies made to give away to
anyone interested.  With his permission, next post .

Susan

"Old Water Levels and Waterways During the Ancient Copper Mining Era
(about 3000 BC to 1000 BC)" was written by Jim Scherz for
audience distribution prior to his talk at The Peoples
Festival in Baraga, Michigan, overlooking Lake Superior's Keweenaw
Bay.  Anyone wanting to read the excellent 24 page report, Ancient
American Magazine sells the booklet through their book club.  Jim said he just had a dozen copies to give to interested members here.  A continuation of this report is in progress and being done with AAPS and those of us exploring old waterways, surveying, and mapping with him.

___________________________________________________
In part.... "OLD WATER LEVELS & WATERWAYS During the Ancient Copper Mining Era (about 3000 BC to 1000 BC)", by Dr. James P. Scherz, Prof. Emeritus, Dept. Of Civil and Environmental Engineering (Surveying and Mapping Section) University of Wisconsin. July, 1999

(pp. 5, 6, 7, & 9)...

p. 5 "Changing Water Levels and Changing Water Routes

A myopic view of our surroundings would favor ancient water
levels and water routes to be as we see them today. We are
comfortable with things as we know them. But in reality, this is
entirely not the case. The land in the north, especially around the
north shores of the Great Lakes, is rising at a dramatic rate. Even
the English fur trading port at Churchill (on Hudson's Bay), once at
the waters edge, is today on dry land miles from the present
shoreline. And given the best USGS models for isostatic uplift, the
north shore of Lake Superior rises in 50 years (about one lifetime)
approximately a foot above the shores on the south end of Lake
Michigan. This rise in the north (and also relative subsidence in the
south) is due to what is called isostatic rebound. This is caused by
release of weight on the crust of the earth after melting of the mile-
high glacier that was in the region until about 10,000 years ago.
Figure 1 shows the so-called Hinge Line north of which ancient
beaches have risen dramatically.

P. 6:   The melting glacier naturally produced a large quantity of
water, which had to somehow drain to the seas. As it melted, it
exposed an outlet into the Ottawa River through North Bay, Ontario.
It was through this region that the rushing torrent of glacial melt
once ran to the Atlantic. See Figure 2. From about 8000 BC when the
melting glacier first exposed the outlet at North Bay until about
2000 BC when the rising earth under North Bay closed the outlet, this
was a prime river connecting the Great Lakes with the Atlantic. It is
interesting that the French fur traders following their Ottawa (he
who trades) native guides also developed their portage routes
precisely over the area where that old river once ran.

It was isostatic rebound that caused the land under North Bay
to rise, century by century. And the rising land under the outlet
naturally caused the lake levels to the west to rise as well. The
water levels rose until the waters of Lakes Huron, Michigan and
Superior were confluent in one giant lake known as Lake Nipissing. At
this stage, the water of Lake Superior was about 40 feet higher than
present levels. The old beach lines of the Nipissing stage can be
clearly seen on ridges and hills above present lake shores,
especially at places such as Huron Mountain, Mich. In those days,
large dugout canoes from any spot on that lake could move to any
other beach (even near the ancient copper mines in Lake Superior)
without any portaging. The rapids of the St. Marys River that the
French found, were then far below the levels of Lake Nipissing. It
was at this time that the first serious working of the ancient mines
in the Copper Country began. The highest waters of the Lake Nipissing
stage were about 3300 BC. See Figure 3.

Naturally, a rising of Lake Nipissing could occur just so
long before water began to spill through other outlets besides the
rising one at North Bay. During part of the ancient copper mining
era, three outlets drained the waters of Lake Nipissing. One was
through North Bay, which was gradually being reduced and choked off
due to the isostatic rise of the earth. Another outlet was a stream
through glacial till that released water into the St. Lawrence River
and the Atlantic. It still runs, but then carried considerably less
water than today. It is the Niagara River. Most importantly, there
was a lake-level opening that developed near Chicago, along what
today is the Chicago Ship Canal. Today, the Chicago Ship Canal
connects barge traffic (through locks) from the waters of the
Mississippi to those of Lake Michigan. In the days of Lake Nipissing,
no locks were required for large canoes that traveled this route.
During the ancient copper mining era, there would have been no
waiting as the locks opened, closed, and then filled with water. In
those centuries, large water craft could have merely negotiated up a
slowly moving stream into Lake Nipissing much as one can today paddle
a canoe into any one of many placid lakes in the canoe country along
the lake and river border between the United States and Canada.

It is this ancient water outlet near Chicago which is vitally
important to anyone pondering the movement of copper during the
ancient copper mining era. It was over this route that large canoes
or other water craft, the larger the better, could evidently have
traveled directly from the waters of the Mississippi (without
portaging) into the waters of Lake Nipissing and then directly to the
shores of the Keweenaw and Isle Royale, again without any portaging
at all. On the shores near the ancient copper mines, the canoes could
be quickly filled with the copper nuggets, possibly in a day's time.
Then the paddlers could head back south towards the outlet at Chicago.

p. 9  And this opening through Chicago flowed during most of the
ancient copper mining era, until about 1200 BC when the river near
Chicago began to close. This was reportedly caused by the erosion of
the Niagara River through the glacial till over which it ran, a
process that lowered the water levels of the Great Lakes. But the
material under the Chicago outlet was limestone bedrock which did not
erode as easily as the material under the Niagara River. By about
1200 BC, the Chicago outlet was a choked swamp and the North Bay
outlet had completely closed due to isostatic uplift. This left the
Niagara River as the sole outlet for the waters of the Great Lakes as
it is today. With all the runoff from the Great Lakes going through
the Niagara River, the erosion potential of this river increased
dramatically, eventually resulting in the Niagara Falls as we know
them, a rather recent development geographically speaking.

A few centuries before the end of the copper mining era, say
about 1200 BC, the Chicago outlet had closed and boats from the
Mississippi thereafter would have had to portage this area into the
Great Lakes, as they did during the historic fur trad era. Other
alternate routes could have been used such as up the Rock River to
its headwaters (including an area near Aztalan and Rock Lake) or
through the area today known as Portage, Wisconsin, which connected
the water routes of the Wisconsin River (a tributary of the
Mississippi) with the waters of the Fox River which runs into Lake
Michigan. Another portage was in Portage County, Wisconsin, between
the waters of the Pigeon River (which runs into the Wisconsin) and
the Tomorrow river (from "tomorrow we will be in the waters of the
Mississippi"). And there were other avenues for portage and land
trails between the waters of the Wisconsin and the waters of Lake
Michigan that could have been used in ancient times as they were in
the fur trade era. It is between the waters of Lake Michigan and the
Wisconsin where most of the copper age artifacts have been found. See
Figure 1.

Although the Chicago outlet had closed by about 1200 BC, it
is important to note that once canoes were in the waters of the
lowering Lake Nipissing (also called the Algoma stage), they still
could have gone directly to beaches or harbors near the ancient
copper mines without having to portage over rapids and falls on what
today is the St. Mary's River between Lake Michigan and Lake
Superior. This would have been the situation at the beginning of the
so-called Hopewell period in Ohio (beginning about 500 or 400 BC).
The Hopewells were known to have controlled a trade network that
included copper from Lake Superior. Large dugout canoes in those days
could have gone from a port in say Sandusky, Ohio (on Lake Erie) to
the copper mines–again without any portaging. But about the time of
Christ, the rising of the land around Lake Superior created first
rapids, then portages along the St. Mary's River. After this time,
copper nuggets transported from Lake Superior to Lake Michigan would
have to be carried over the portages of the St. Mary's River, much as
the French had to do with their bundles of furs in the 1600's. By the
time of Christ, the previously easy water routes to the copper mines
of Lake Superior had been closed off for economical transport by
large water craft. This situation was to continue until the United
Stats miners in the 1800's began to again move copper nuggets, first
by barge and locks, and later by rail...."
___________________________________

(my note):   Scherz' report later discusses the southerly outlet of the
Mississippi River, i.e., states Poverty Point is believed to have
been constructed about 3000 to 2000 BC , evidently as an active
ceremonial, manufacturing, and presumably a trade center throughout
much of the ancient copper mining area, which was abandoned about
1000 BC.

Please see full paper for the larger perspective of this fine report with maps and references.   Scherz was instrumental in the founding of AAPS and one of the researchers this "Ancient Waterways Society was named after.

Respectfully,

M. Susan English

connect ing people and resources along ancient Great Lake-Mississippi Riverways,
helping us rediscover who we human beings really are...

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ancient_waterways_society/
_________________________________

All,

In regard to the Native American smelted artifacts link I posted two days ago: http://www.archaeologyfieldwork.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=135 , I received this email from William Connor of Midwestern Epigraphic Society in Ohio.  I am inserting his MES home page link of several years ago, and see a photo of Zena in there!  Bottom of the site is the link again to Connor's "America's Myserious Furnaces". http://www.iwaynet.net/~wdc/meshome.htm