Yes, I agree, very nice image.  Would be nice to see it all.  Also, what Ha
filter are you using?

Jim

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stuart Heggie" <stuart.j.heggie@...>
To: <ap-ug@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 26, 2010 4:26 AM
Subject: RE: [ap-ug] TCC and SBIG STX


>
> Peter, it is very nice! Isn't the chip square though? Would be nice to see
> the whole frame.
>
> Stuart
>
>> To: ap-ug@yahoogroups.com
>> From: pjward@...
>> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 09:23:37 +0000
>> Subject: [ap-ug] TCC and SBIG STX
>>
>> A big thanks to Roly and Marge for the Ap155 STX-TCC adapter...
>>
>> First impressions were it was a little off the money, but it didn't take
>> me too long to realise there was some tilt at the camera end.
>>
>> Anyway here is the (not too shabby) result :)
>>
>> http://www.atscope.com.au/BRO/gallery73.html
>>
>> AP155 +TCC SBIG STX 80mins H-Alpha
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>>
>> To UNSUBSCRIBE, or for general information on the ap-ug list
>> see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ap-ugYahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, or for general information on the ap-ug list
> see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ap-ugYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

astromart is the best place to do some research on prior sales.  not sure what
your model year is or control version but a recent AP900 CP3 with accessories is
listed here:

http://www.astromart.com/classifieds/details.asp?classified_id=695358

these are not as difficult to get new anymore so i don't think they hold their
value quite as well as they used to.  (i just ordered a new one for jan/feb
delivery :-)

Lee


--- In ap-ug@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey A. Steinberg" <jeffreys48.groups@...>
wrote:
>
> I want to step up to the 1200 mount for future capacity (should have spent the
small difference initially) but have no idea how to price my 900.
>

Yes, you can almost order them off the shelf.  Thanks for the auction.


--Jeffrey
------------------------------
Jeffrey A. Steinberg
914-374-7503

On Nov 26, 2010, at 3:18 PM, "lmbuck2000" <lmbuck2000@...> wrote:

> astromart is the best place to do some research on prior sales. not sure what
your model year is or control version but a recent AP900 CP3 with accessories is
listed here:
>
> http://www.astromart.com/classifieds/details.asp?classified_id=695358
>
> these are not as difficult to get new anymore so i don't think they hold their
value quite as well as they used to. (i just ordered a new one for jan/feb
delivery :-)
>
> Lee
>
> --- In ap-ug@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey A. Steinberg" <jeffreys48.groups@...>
wrote:
> >
> > I want to step up to the 1200 mount for future capacity (should have spent
the small difference initially) but have no idea how to price my 900.
> >
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

It was mostly cloudy this evening.  Seeing was average, but I had to
image through thin clouds which made transparency poor.

The outbreak material can be seen setting on the right.  The NEB is
very dark red with a lot of activity.  The northern edge of the NTB
has some dark red bands.

More info at:

http://jupiter.cstoneind.com

Regards,

Chris


Christopher and Vicky Go
Christone Industries
Manufacturer and Exporter of Quality Furniture
Cebu, Philippines
http://www.christone.net
astronomy homepage: http://astro.christone.net
HST Jupiter Collaboration: http://www.redspotjr.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I stumbled across this, so perhaps others are in the dark and not aware of this
work.. it's an "Astrometry Engine" that performs blind plate solving.   See
here:

http://astrometry.net/summary.html

"The astrometry engine will take any image and return the astrometry world
coordinate system (WCS)�ie, a standards-based description of the (usually
nonlinear) transformation between image coordinates and sky coordinates�with
absolutely no �false positives� (but maybe some �no answers�). It will do its
best, even when the input image has no�or totally incorrect�meta-data."  There's
some documentation on the algorithms used, etc. on this site as well.

I happened to find it on flickr; there's a group that you can post your image
to, and the "astronmetry.net" bot will come around periodically and add image
comments the metadata associated with the image. 
http://www.flickr.com/groups/astrometry/

You can also download the code and databases which seem to be mostly oriented to
UNIX/Linux style systems, though the author suggest a cygwin environment might
work on Windoze as well.  As I run my imaging environment in VMware on Mac OS, I
might install this in the UNIX environment and use it to solve images when the
scope gets "lost" and Pinpoint isn't working.

This looks like some really nice work!

Louis Mamakos

In a message dated 11/26/2010 5:26:22 PM Central Standard Time,
mail.astro@... writes:


> All I have to do is unscrewing the 3 scews from one of the ep holder and
> move him around until the image merges for me ?
>

Yes, this is what you do.

Rolando


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Can this be done on the Mark V as well?

--Larry

-----Original Message-----
From: ap-ug@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ap-ug@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
chris1011@...
Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2010 4:34 PM
To: ap-ug@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [ap-ug] collimation for older Baader/Zeiss binoviewer

In a message dated 11/26/2010 5:26:22 PM Central Standard Time,
mail.astro@... writes:


> All I have to do is unscrewing the 3 scews from one of the ep holder and
> move him around until the image merges for me ?
>

Yes, this is what you do.

Rolando


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------


To UNSUBSCRIBE, or for general information on the ap-ug list
see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ap-ugYahoo! Groups Links

Thanks guys...

I'm using the Baader 65mm H-Alpha in SBIG's standard FW-STX. Stars were easy to
find and well formed on the guide chip, making self guiding very easy with the
TCC.

Sorry, due to a dud flat field, I cropped the image before processing it further
, hence no full frame available at this time.

Rgds
Peter



--- In ap-ug@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Janusz" <jjanusz@...> wrote:
>
> Yes, I agree, very nice image.  Would be nice to see it all.  Also, what Ha
> filter are you using?
>
> Jim
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stuart Heggie" <stuart.j.heggie@...>
> To: <ap-ug@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, November 26, 2010 4:26 AM
> Subject: RE: [ap-ug] TCC and SBIG STX
>
>
> >
> > Peter, it is very nice! Isn't the chip square though? Would be nice to see
> > the whole frame.
> >
> > Stuart
> >
> >> To: ap-ug@yahoogroups.com
> >> From: pjward@...
> >> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 09:23:37 +0000
> >> Subject: [ap-ug] TCC and SBIG STX
> >>
> >> A big thanks to Roly and Marge for the Ap155 STX-TCC adapter...
> >>
> >> First impressions were it was a little off the money, but it didn't take
> >> me too long to realise there was some tilt at the camera end.
> >>
> >> Anyway here is the (not too shabby) result :)
> >>
> >> http://www.atscope.com.au/BRO/gallery73.html
> >>
> >> AP155 +TCC SBIG STX 80mins H-Alpha
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------
> >>
> >>
> >> To UNSUBSCRIBE, or for general information on the ap-ug list
> >> see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ap-ugYahoo! Groups Links
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> >
> > To UNSUBSCRIBE, or for general information on the ap-ug list
> > see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ap-ugYahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

It was again mostly cloudy today.  I was unable to cool my OTA
because it was mostly overcast!  But the sky cleared around
7pm.  Transparency wasn't great.

The GRS seems to be "attacked" by the STB ovals.  The southern part
of the GRS has a reddish line.  The eastern side of the GRS looks
deformed.  The SEB is still quiet at this region.

The NNTZ LRS can be seen north of the GRS.


More info at:

http://jupiter.cstoneind.com

Regards,

Chris


Christopher and Vicky Go
Christone Industries
Manufacturer and Exporter of Quality Furniture
Cebu, Philippines
http://www.christone.net
astronomy homepage: http://astro.christone.net
HST Jupiter Collaboration: http://www.redspotjr.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

i have been playing around with this site for about a year.  you can actually
use it via direct upload to their website without going through flikr.
(live.astrometry.net)

you can contact astrometry.net and ask to sign up by sending email to alpha2 at
astrometry dot net. (no cost)

i have submitted single FITS files with exposures as short as 1 minute (not a
lot to be seen) and it has quickly and correctly returned the data. since the
FITs files can be quite large, i have also converted a single FITs to JPG for a
1 minute exposure and that worked perfectly.

here's a link to an image that was "full of stuff".  it's pretty cool.

http://tinyurl.com/2983er4

Lee

--- In ap-ug@yahoogroups.com, Louis Mamakos <louie@...> wrote:
>
> I stumbled across this, so perhaps others are in the dark and not aware of
this work.. it's an "Astrometry Engine" that performs blind plate solving.   See
here:
>
> http://astrometry.net/summary.html
>

This looks great for when my mount gets lost and i dont want to go out and
freeze for a few minutes ; )


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In ap-ug@yahoogroups.com, chris1011@... wrote:
>
> Massimo Riccardi has revolutionized the art of amateur telescope design in
> my opinion. His ATMOS software has made possible the design of more capable
> systems than the "old order" so to speak. No longer are we limited to the
> Schmidt or Maks of old, the RCs, classical Cassegrains and Newtonians, but now
> variations of each can be analyzed from an optical and thermal standpoint
> in a matter of minutes.
>
> As time passes, you will see new young minded entrepreneurs coming up with
> more and better designs that will be competitive and highly capable for the
> next generation of imaging. Times have never been better, and I plan to ride
> that wave myself.
>
> Rolando
>

Hi Roland and all,

without any doubt Massimo Riccardi has made very valuable contributions to 
amateur telescope development. But when it comes to the so-called
Riccardi-Honders astrograph there are several remarks to make concerning the
history of the invention.
There are some predecessors of the invention, apart from the ancient ones,
Hamilton and Schupmann: in the 20th century Fl�gge, Canzek, Wiedemann and
Gallert,  to name but a few with valuable contributions.
None of them, exept for Gallert, could give full color correction and correction
of all aberrations of third order with spherical lenses of but one glass (and
therefore with apochromatic correction). The Gallert system comprises a concave
secondary, therefore beeing of limited value because of big obstruction, large
tube length and small backfocus.
The first system with full correction without secondary mirror, now known as
`Honders', and the first system with full correction with secondary in
cassegrainian form as well, now known as `Riccardi-Honders', were invented by
me.
I am Hans-Juergen Busack from Germany,  the patent applications for the above
mentioned systems are  DE 19847702 A1 of 1998 and  DE 10036309 A1 of 2000.
Disclosure dates were 20.04.2000 for the `Honders'-system and 14.03.2002 for the
`Riccardi-Honders'-system. In 2004, my systems were presented in the second
edition of `Reflecting Telescope Optics' by Raymond N. Wilson. In 2003, I have
abandoned both patents, so everybody is free to use them.

Moreover, in these patents I gave a comprehensive, fully analytical mathematical
theory of third order for thin lenses for these systems, with extension to thick
lenses. So everyone in principle can calculate any system of any glass with any
geometry out of a huge range of possible geometries. Of course, this is not a
quick job until you have something like a Excel sheet with the necessary
calculations. I have a plug-in for my program `PointSpread' for my personal use.
If someone wants to have a calculation of a system for ATM-purposes, it is a
matter of 5 minutes to me, to calculate an optimized system according to the
glass- and geometry requirements like thicknesses and distances of lenses, focal
length and speed.

Both Honders and Riccardi came to public by far later than the disclosure dates
of my patents.
I am quite sure, that Klaas Honders has developed his system independently,
because he was pursuing a patent, what would obviously be senseless, if he had
knowledge of my patents.

Perhaps this is off topic and not of  interest for this user group to know about
the history of a telescope design. But in this case the new AP-astrograph has
been named after  the expected inventors (I think by you, Roland) and I feel it
would be fair, at least to add the name of the original inventor, when he comes
to be known.

Best regards,

Hans-Juergen

...sorry for my poor English...

O/H Hans-juergen Busack έγραψε:
>
>
>
> --- In ap-ug@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ap-ug%40yahoogroups.com>,
> chris1011@... wrote:
> >
> > Massimo Riccardi has revolutionized the art of amateur telescope
> design in
> > my opinion. His ATMOS software has made possible the design of more
> capable
> > systems than the "old order" so to speak. No longer are we limited
> to the
> > Schmidt or Maks of old, the RCs, classical Cassegrains and
> Newtonians, but now
> > variations of each can be analyzed from an optical and thermal
> standpoint
> > in a matter of minutes.
> >
> > As time passes, you will see new young minded entrepreneurs coming
> up with
> > more and better designs that will be competitive and highly capable
> for the
> > next generation of imaging. Times have never been better, and I plan
> to ride
> > that wave myself.
> >
> > Rolando
> >
>
> Hi Roland and all,
>
> without any doubt Massimo Riccardi has made very valuable
> contributions to amateur telescope development. But when it comes to
> the so-called Riccardi-Honders astrograph there are several remarks to
> make concerning the history of the invention.
> There are some predecessors of the invention, apart from the ancient
> ones, Hamilton and Schupmann: in the 20th century Flügge, Canzek,
> Wiedemann and Gallert, to name but a few with valuable contributions.
> None of them, exept for Gallert, could give full color correction and
> correction of all aberrations of third order with spherical lenses of
> but one glass (and therefore with apochromatic correction). The
> Gallert system comprises a concave secondary, therefore beeing of
> limited value because of big obstruction, large tube length and small
> backfocus.
> The first system with full correction without secondary mirror, now
> known as `Honders', and the first system with full correction with
> secondary in cassegrainian form as well, now known as
> `Riccardi-Honders', were invented by me.
> I am Hans-Juergen Busack from Germany, the patent applications for the
> above mentioned systems are DE 19847702 A1 of 1998 and DE 10036309 A1
> of 2000. Disclosure dates were 20.04.2000 for the `Honders'-system and
> 14.03.2002 for the `Riccardi-Honders'-system. In 2004, my systems were
> presented in the second edition of `Reflecting Telescope Optics' by
> Raymond N. Wilson. In 2003, I have abandoned both patents, so
> everybody is free to use them.
>
> Moreover, in these patents I gave a comprehensive, fully analytical
> mathematical theory of third order for thin lenses for these systems,
> with extension to thick lenses. So everyone in principle can calculate
> any system of any glass with any geometry out of a huge range of
> possible geometries. Of course, this is not a quick job until you have
> something like a Excel sheet with the necessary calculations. I have a
> plug-in for my program `PointSpread' for my personal use. If someone
> wants to have a calculation of a system for ATM-purposes, it is a
> matter of 5 minutes to me, to calculate an optimized system according
> to the glass- and geometry requirements like thicknesses and distances
> of lenses, focal length and speed.
>
> Both Honders and Riccardi came to public by far later than the
> disclosure dates of my patents.
> I am quite sure, that Klaas Honders has developed his system
> independently, because he was pursuing a patent, what would obviously
> be senseless, if he had knowledge of my patents.
>
> Perhaps this is off topic and not of interest for this user group to
> know about the history of a telescope design. But in this case the new
> AP-astrograph has been named after the expected inventors (I think by
> you, Roland) and I feel it would be fair, at least to add the name of
> the original inventor, when he comes to be known.
>

Perhaps this is the book cited above:
http://books.google.gr/books?id=zLvQYy41Ma4C&printsec=frontcover&#v=onepage&q&f=\
false

Anthony.

>
> Best regards,
>
> Hans-Juergen
>
> ...sorry for my poor English...
>
>

Anthony, how is it going?  Just wondering.  Personally I am upgrading my 900 to
a 1200 to have the extra carrying capacity (why didn't I spend the differential
in the beginning)?

Good luck and keep us posted.  Now that you got it I hope it's not cloudy.

--Jeffrey
------------------------------
Jeffrey A. Steinberg
914-374-7503

--- In ap-ug@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Ayiomamitis <anthony@...> wrote:
>
> Perhaps this is the book cited above:
>
http://books.google.gr/books?id=zLvQYy41Ma4C&printsec=frontcover&#v=onepage&q&f=\
false
>
> Anthony.

Hi Anthony,

sorry for being not clear:

The title is 'Reflecting Telescope Optics I', 2nd edition.

Hans-Juergen

Hi Jeffrey,

The Honders is just fine ... it is the weather which has fallen apart.
We are having a tremendously mild winter (topless during the day) but
the skies are filled with clouds day after day. The current front which
is blanketing Europe is expected to last to the end of this week
(minimum). On Saturday we had a three-hr sucker hole but the seeing was
so horrific that I could not focus my AP160. Out of shear stubborness, I
stuck it out for all three hours and I could not focus at all. I set my
SBIG AO-8 loose but the improvement was not worth any actual imaging.

As for the AP900-AP1200 dilemma, there is no question in my mind that
the AP1200 is the much better buy. For an extra 10% investment, you more
than double your weight capacity.

Anthony.


O/H Jeffrey A. Steinberg έγραψε:
>
> Anthony, how is it going? Just wondering. Personally I am upgrading my
> 900 to a 1200 to have the extra carrying capacity (why didn't I spend
> the differential in the beginning)?
>
> Good luck and keep us posted. Now that you got it I hope it's not cloudy.
>
> --Jeffrey
> ------------------------------
> Jeffrey A. Steinberg
> 914-374-7503
>

Condition was very poor this evening.  It was mostly cloudy.  Seeing
was terrible and transparency variable.

The SEB outbreak has really grown. There are now a number of outbreak
spots and the dark material has spread to almost half the
planet.  Unfortunately, Io's shadow is eclipsing part of the outbreak area.

The NEB  is still dark red in color.

More info at:

http://jupiter.cstoneind.com

Regards,

Chris


Christopher and Vicky Go
Christone Industries
Manufacturer and Exporter of Quality Furniture
Cebu, Philippines
http://www.christone.net
astronomy homepage: http://astro.christone.net
HST Jupiter Collaboration: http://www.redspotjr.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

O/H Hans-juergen Busack έγραψε:
>
>
>
> --- In ap-ug@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ap-ug%40yahoogroups.com>, Anthony
> Ayiomamitis <anthony@...> wrote:
> >
> > Perhaps this is the book cited above:
> >
>
http://books.google.gr/books?id=zLvQYy41Ma4C&printsec=frontcover&#v=onepage&q&f=\
false
>
<http://books.google.gr/books?id=zLvQYy41Ma4C&printsec=frontcover&#v=onepage&q&f\
=false>
> >
> > Anthony.
>
> Hi Anthony,
>
Hi Hans-Juergen,
>
>
> sorry for being not clear:
>
> The title is 'Reflecting Telescope Optics I', 2nd edition.
>
Hopefully this is the book:
http://www.amazon.com/Reflecting-Telescope-Optics-Development-Astrophysics/dp/35\
40589643

Your two patents are identified in the references for Chapter 3 and
presumably refer to pages 222-223.
>
>
> Hans-Juergen
>

O/H Anthony Ayiomamitis έγραψε:
> O/H Hans-juergen Busack έγραψε:
>>
>>
>>
>> --- In ap-ug@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ap-ug%40yahoogroups.com>,
>> Anthony Ayiomamitis <anthony@...> wrote:
>> >
>> > Perhaps this is the book cited above:
>> >
>>
http://books.google.gr/books?id=zLvQYy41Ma4C&printsec=frontcover&#v=onepage&q&f=\
false
>>
<http://books.google.gr/books?id=zLvQYy41Ma4C&printsec=frontcover&#v=onepage&q&f\
=false>
>>
>> >
>> > Anthony.
>>
>> Hi Anthony,
>>
> Hi Hans-Juergen,
>>
>>
>> sorry for being not clear:
>>
>> The title is 'Reflecting Telescope Optics I', 2nd edition.
>>
> Hopefully this is the book:
>
http://www.amazon.com/Reflecting-Telescope-Optics-Development-Astrophysics/dp/35\
40589643
>
>
> Your two patents are identified in the references for Chapter 3 and
> presumably refer to pages 222-223.
Section titled "Systems with Mangin secondaries and Medial geometry"
with the text on pages 222-223 transcribed below:

"Systems with Mangin secondaries and Medial geometry: Many designs of
great variety exist. Fig. 3.71 shows a very compact design with all
spherical surfaces due to Delabre [3.72]. Here, the primary is f/2
working in a Cassegrain type arrangement with a plane secondary as the
back of a negative Mangin lens. Although the secondary is plane, the
obstruction is quite low because of an internal image which is
transferred out in the Brachymedial geometry by a 5-element refracting
system. The length between the reflecting surfaces of primary and
secondary is only 636 mm for an aperture of 400 mm and an equivalent
focal length of 3000 mm (f/7.5). The field is about 0.8◦ diameter for
miniature camera format. The quality is limited by coma and transverse
chromatic effects, 80% of the energy being within 1 arcsec (14.5 μm) at
a field of ±0.3◦. The purpose of such designs is to replace fullaperture
menisci by smaller elements: but corrector elements near the pupil
are always the most effective.

Further interesting developments of the basic optical concept of the
Brachymedial designs of Figs. 3.68 and 3.69 have recently been published
by Busack [3.160]. In a normal uniaxial form, an additional convex lens,
near the image, is added to the basic design of Fig. 3.68. This enables
the removal of the fundamental optical weakness of the Brachymedial, the
lateral colour or chromatic difference of magnification (see Eq.
(3.223)), using only spherical surfaces. Busack claims that this gives a
performance equivalent to the Schmidt telescope, with apertures up to
f/2 and fields up to 5◦, but with the advantage of a flat field and
shorter overall length. The disadvantage of such solutions is that they
require high quality optical glass not only for the front lens, but also
for the Mangin mirror, whose optical thickness is doubled by the back
reflection. This limits the size of practical application. However, the
back reflection permits better protection of the reflecting coat. A
number of modifications of the basic system are given in the patent.

In a later patent [3.161], Busack extends the above prime focus system
to a Cassegrain version. He refers to a patent by Gallert of a similar
system, whereby Gallert uses a positive front lens of convex-concave
form, the concave back surface then serving in its reflecting centre as
a concave secondary mirror. This system gives good correction at f/3
over a 4◦ field. Busack’s system uses a similar front lens, but has a
separated conventional Cassegrain convex secondary, close to the front
lens. This is essentially a normal Cassegrain extension of his prime
focus system and gives similar excellent correction at f/4 over a 4◦
field. The advantages claimed over the Gallert system are a shorter
overall length, a longer back focal distance, a smaller central
obstruction and correction of distortion. If some field curvature is
permitted, the central obstruction can be so far reduced that the system
is considered eminently suitable for visual observation. All surfaces
are again spherical and only one glass type is used."

I have secured a digital (pirate) copy if there is interest. The PDF
file is 9.2 Mb in size (zipped) and I can provide a link to the pirate
copy if there is interest (best via email).

Anthony.
>>
>>
>> Hans-Juergen
>>
>
>

Hello Hans-Jurgen,

My apologies for excluding you from the origin of this particular design. I
think what tends to happen in the optical business is a separation of the
professional optics field and the amateur astronomy optics field. Long ago I
did follow the professional field via the professional publications, and I
was aware of various optical designs of the time. However, in the last 25
years I limited myself almost entirely to amateur astronomical optics, and thus
became almost totally unaware of things happening elsewhere.

When I first showed the Riccardi-Honders designs at NEAF conference 3 years
ago, my fellow optician, Peter Ceravolo, told me that there were other
similar optics used by the US Airforce going back to 1954 for photogrammetry.
Most of that information was known to a select few, and most was hidden in
obscure patents scattered about. I was also aware of the Questar 700 astrograph
design that used a Mangin primary but with front negative lens rather than
positive lens and a spot secondary mirror.

What piqued my interest in the Schupmann Medial was my various visits to
Stellafane convention and talking to the amateurs who were building large
versions. After reading the book by James Daley, "The Schupmann Telescope" I
began designing optical systems for astrophotography including Newtonian and
the present Cass versions of the Honders design that was featured in this
book. I'm sure if James Daley and Wilman Bell Publishing had known that you were
actually first to invent this system, they would have put you in the book
instead. Unfortunately your design was not known to the amateur astronomical
world, thus is the drawback of patents, which tend to be not widely dis
seminated. Unless you make your invention known in the wider world, it will keep
the rest of us ignorant and uninformed.

What Daley, Honders and Riccardi did was to popularize the design for the
amateur world. None of them had any interest in gaining monetarily from it,
rather they did it to advance the state of the art of amateur astronomy. Even
today, Massimo Riccardi is still working to perfect his ATMOS optical
design software, developed for the amateur, sold at a very low price to allow
the
amateur to use it for the advancement of the art. It has evolved into one
of the most powerful, yet easy to use programs of all time - better in many
ways to Oslo and others. I doubt that he has made enough money to cover even
1/100 of the time invested in this software.

The name on our telescope will remain Riccardi-Honders, even though I
designed the actual curves and type of glass used, and the final design is
different from the original  Honders concept (it does not use the same glasses
in
the 3 elements). The reason for the name is that they inspired me to pursue
this work for the amateur astronomical world, to develop a fast astrograph
for wide field astrophotography. I am not interested and will not pursue the
professional or commercial optical world - for me that is foreign land.

Roland Christen

In a message dated 11/28/2010 4:52:28 PM Central Standard Time,
hj_busack@... writes:


> Hi Roland and all,
>
> without any doubt Massimo Riccardi has made very valuable contributions to
>  amateur telescope development. But when it comes to the so-called
> Riccardi-Honders astrograph there are several remarks to make concerning the
> history of the invention.
> There are some predecessors of the invention, apart from the ancient ones,
> Hamilton and Schupmann: in the 20th century Fl�gge, Canzek, Wiedemann and
> Gallert,  to name but a few with valuable contributions.
> None of them, exept for Gallert, could give full color correction and
> correction of all aberrations of third order with spherical lenses of but one
> glass (and therefore with apochromatic correction). The Gallert system
> comprises a concave secondary, therefore beeing of limited value because of
big
> obstruction, large tube length and small backfocus.
> The first system with full correction without secondary mirror, now known
> as `Honders', and the first system with full correction with secondary in
> cassegrainian form as well, now known as `Riccardi-Honders', were invented
> by me.
> I am Hans-Juergen Busack from Germany,  the patent applications for the
> above mentioned systems are  DE 19847702 A1 of 1998 and  DE 10036309 A1 of
> 2000. Disclosure dates were 20.04.2000 for the `Honders'-system and
> 14.03.2002 for the `Riccardi-Honders'-system. In 2004, my systems were
presented in
> the second edition of `Reflecting Telescope Optics' by Raymond N. Wilson.
> In 2003, I have abandoned both patents, so everybody is free to use them.
>
> Moreover, in these patents I gave a comprehensive, fully analytical
> mathematical theory of third order for thin lenses for these systems, with
> extension to thick lenses. So everyone in principle can calculate any system
of
> any glass with any geometry out of a huge range of possible geometries. Of
> course, this is not a quick job until you have something like a Excel sheet
> with the necessary calculations. I have a plug-in for my program
> `PointSpread' for my personal use. If someone wants to have a calculation of a
system
> for ATM-purposes, it is a matter of 5 minutes to me, to calculate an
> optimized system according to the glass- and geometry requirements like
> thicknesses and distances of lenses, focal length and speed.
>
> Both Honders and Riccardi came to public by far later than the disclosure
> dates of my patents.
> I am quite sure, that Klaas Honders has developed his system
> independently, because he was pursuing a patent, what would obviously be
senseless, if
> he had knowledge of my patents.
>
> Perhaps this is off topic and not of  interest for this user group to know
> about the history of a telescope design. But in this case the new
> AP-astrograph has been named after  the expected inventors (I think by you,
Roland)
> and I feel it would be fair, at least to add the name of the original
> inventor, when he comes to be known.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Hans-Juergen
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Hans-Juergen,

This is the first time for me I read/know your name so I was a bit "shocked"
after reading your post.
I'm sorry but I really didn't know there was in the past some your patents on
such kind of design.
What I can say is that I fully agree (and can subscribe)all that written by
Roland in his post.
By my side (and since many years) designing/investigating fast catadioptric
systems is one of my passions and what is called Riccardi-Honders just comes 7-8
years ago after publishing a paper on Applied Optics Journal (concerning
aspherical Houghton systems) and after exchanging some mails with Klaas Honders.
I remember in that period he wrote me for knowing my opinions about
his system (it was ,say, "Newtonian" form)and that he was intentioned to patent
it.
So after that an idea arose in my mind : to investigate if it was possible to
develope a "Cassegrain" form for that concept.
My original developement was a Cassegrain type "without"  secondary.
I mean without a separated secondary. Infact the secondary was the central area
of the back surface of the front lens.
This simplify a lot the manufacturing process (and this is one of
commercial product designed by me). Then another version was developed with a
separated secondary (as that produced by Roland).
I know it is possible to design a system with an unique glass,however my designs
also include different glass types.
What I can say is that ,as it often happened in the past,it seems that I
indipendently developed a very similar system without knowing
anything about you.
On the other hand we are much more in the amateur side so the world
of the patents is often a very far world.

Best regards.
Massimo









> >
>
> Hi Roland and all,
>
> without any doubt Massimo Riccardi has made very valuable contributions to 
amateur telescope development. But when it comes to the so-called
Riccardi-Honders astrograph there are several remarks to make concerning the
history of the invention.
> There are some predecessors of the invention, apart from the ancient ones,
Hamilton and Schupmann: in the 20th century Fl�gge, Canzek, Wiedemann and
Gallert,  to name but a few with valuable contributions.
> None of them, exept for Gallert, could give full color correction and
correction of all aberrations of third order with spherical lenses of but one
glass (and therefore with apochromatic correction). The Gallert system comprises
a concave secondary, therefore beeing of limited value because of big
obstruction, large tube length and small backfocus.
> The first system with full correction without secondary mirror, now known as
`Honders', and the first system with full correction with secondary in
cassegrainian form as well, now known as `Riccardi-Honders', were invented by
me.
> I am Hans-Juergen Busack from Germany,  the patent applications for the above
mentioned systems are  DE 19847702 A1 of 1998 and  DE 10036309 A1 of 2000.
Disclosure dates were 20.04.2000 for the `Honders'-system and 14.03.2002 for the
`Riccardi-Honders'-system. In 2004, my systems were presented in the second
edition of `Reflecting Telescope Optics' by Raymond N. Wilson. In 2003, I have
abandoned both patents, so everybody is free to use them.
>
> Moreover, in these patents I gave a comprehensive, fully analytical
mathematical theory of third order for thin lenses for these systems, with
extension to thick lenses. So everyone in principle can calculate any system of
any glass with any geometry out of a huge range of possible geometries. Of
course, this is not a quick job until you have something like a Excel sheet with
the necessary calculations. I have a plug-in for my program `PointSpread' for my
personal use. If someone wants to have a calculation of a system for
ATM-purposes, it is a matter of 5 minutes to me, to calculate an optimized
system according to the glass- and geometry requirements like thicknesses and
distances of lenses, focal length and speed.
>
> Both Honders and Riccardi came to public by far later than the disclosure
dates of my patents.
> I am quite sure, that Klaas Honders has developed his system independently,
because he was pursuing a patent, what would obviously be senseless, if he had
knowledge of my patents.
>
> Perhaps this is off topic and not of  interest for this user group to know
about the history of a telescope design. But in this case the new AP-astrograph
has been named after  the expected inventors (I think by you, Roland) and I feel
it would be fair, at least to add the name of the original inventor, when he
comes to be known.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Hans-Juergen
>
> ...sorry for my poor English...
>

This thing works excellent : )


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

looking for your advice for using an off-axis guider with an AP130GT with FF and
STL-11000 camera.

the FF/STL camera have specific spacing requirements so are connected via AP
part ADA672.  this suggests the OAG needs to go between the FF and the focuser
drawtube... is there any other choice?

what are you using?  astrodon MMOAG?  others?

what about focusing if i have the OAG in the light path?  right now, the focuser
is racked out about 1.25 in with the FF/STL.  if i put the OAG between the FF
and the optical tube that will push back the CCD at least 1.25in.  will i stil
be able to reach focus (if i move the FF away from the optical tube more than
1.25in, aren't i going to have to rack the focuser back IN to achieve focus?)

thanks

Lee

I'm not sure there is an option but I'd be curious to know as well.


--- In ap-ug@yahoogroups.com, "lmbuck2000" <lmbuck2000@...> wrote:
>
> looking for your advice for using an off-axis guider with an AP130GT with FF
and STL-11000 camera.
>
> the FF/STL camera have specific spacing requirements so are connected via AP
part ADA672.  this suggests the OAG needs to go between the FF and the focuser
drawtube... is there any other choice?
>
> what are you using?  astrodon MMOAG?  others?
>
> what about focusing if i have the OAG in the light path?  right now, the
focuser is racked out about 1.25 in with the FF/STL.  if i put the OAG between
the FF and the optical tube that will push back the CCD at least 1.25in.  will i
stil be able to reach focus (if i move the FF away from the optical tube more
than 1.25in, aren't i going to have to rack the focuser back IN to achieve
focus?)
>
> thanks
>
> Lee
>

--- In ap-ug@yahoogroups.com, chris1011@... wrote:
>
> Hello Hans-Jurgen,
>
> My apologies for excluding you from the origin of this particular design. I
> think what tends to happen in the optical business is a separation of the
> professional optics field and the amateur astronomy optics field. Long ago I
> did follow the professional field via the professional publications, and I
> was aware of various optical designs of the time. However, in the last 25
> years I limited myself almost entirely to amateur astronomical optics, and
thus
> became almost totally unaware of things happening elsewhere.
>
> When I first showed the Riccardi-Honders designs at NEAF conference 3 years
> ago, my fellow optician, Peter Ceravolo, told me that there were other
> similar optics used by the US Airforce going back to 1954 for photogrammetry.
> Most of that information was known to a select few, and most was hidden in
> obscure patents scattered about. I was also aware of the Questar 700
astrograph
> design that used a Mangin primary but with front negative lens rather than
> positive lens and a spot secondary mirror.
>
> What piqued my interest in the Schupmann Medial was my various visits to
> Stellafane convention and talking to the amateurs who were building large
> versions. After reading the book by James Daley, "The Schupmann Telescope" I
> began designing optical systems for astrophotography including Newtonian and
> the present Cass versions of the Honders design that was featured in this
> book. I'm sure if James Daley and Wilman Bell Publishing had known that you
were
> actually first to invent this system, they would have put you in the book
> instead. Unfortunately your design was not known to the amateur astronomical
> world, thus is the drawback of patents, which tend to be not widely dis
> seminated. Unless you make your invention known in the wider world, it will
keep
> the rest of us ignorant and uninformed.
>
> What Daley, Honders and Riccardi did was to popularize the design for the
> amateur world. None of them had any interest in gaining monetarily from it,
> rather they did it to advance the state of the art of amateur astronomy. Even
> today, Massimo Riccardi is still working to perfect his ATMOS optical
> design software, developed for the amateur, sold at a very low price to allow
the
> amateur to use it for the advancement of the art. It has evolved into one
> of the most powerful, yet easy to use programs of all time - better in many
> ways to Oslo and others. I doubt that he has made enough money to cover even
> 1/100 of the time invested in this software.
>
> The name on our telescope will remain Riccardi-Honders, even though I
> designed the actual curves and type of glass used, and the final design is
> different from the original  Honders concept (it does not use the same glasses
in
> the 3 elements). The reason for the name is that they inspired me to pursue
> this work for the amateur astronomical world, to develop a fast astrograph
> for wide field astrophotography. I am not interested and will not pursue the
> professional or commercial optical world - for me that is foreign land.
>
> Roland Christen
>




Hello Roland,

you have put this system into practice, so I have to accept your decision and
you have to live with that.
But let me say some words to my person.
My occupation has nothing to do with optics, although I have studied physics (of
course with optics) 40 years ago. I am an amateur astronomer since about 50
years and I am a pure amateur optician in the field of astronomical instruments
since my years of study. I have developed calculation programs for evaluating
astronomical telescopes for my personal use since the coming of programmable
calculators and tried to advance my programs with every new computer generation.
Of course, I watched the literature in this field all over that time.
As you can imagine, with this background I have knowledge of a lot of
astronomical instruments, and of the Schupmann Brachymedial as well, especially
of its favourable correction state in the form presented by Uwe Laux in his book
`Astrooptik' in the late 1990th. At that time I had the idea, how to improve the
field color correction of this systems by adding a positive field lense, without
too much worsen the correction state.
Fortunately, I had just improved my program to a very comfortable state of 
changing and evaluating system parameters, so I was able to find a well
corrected solution nearly at once, in fact with much better overall correction
than the original system. This could not be a lucky hit, so I tried to develop a
comprehensive mathematical derivation, with success, as proved by my two
patents.
In my eyes, I am an amateur to an even higher extent than you, in that sense,
that I have earned not one cent with my passion. I have made public my
inventions not only in the patent literature, but in a book known in the
European ATM-scene as well. I gave the patents free, so everyone can use them. I
provide the ATM-scene with detailed data of my systems and with a free ray
tracing program. And I give free calculation support for ATMs who are trying to
build a telescope based on my developments.
I hope, this comment helps to prevent a false image, that could possibly arise
from your post.
And I wish a great success  to our excellent system.

For all who wish to learn more about the theoretical background a link to the
recherche server of `Deutsches Patent- und Markenamt':

http://depatisnet.dpma.de

Perhaps you have to copy this link to your browser window.

Just open the English user interface and click `Search', then `Beginner's
search. Then type in the publication number DE10036309A1 (for the
`Riccardi-Honders').

Unfortunately, the text is in German language, but the mathematical derivations
are international...

Hans-Juergen

--- In ap-ug@yahoogroups.com, "Massimo Riccardi" <riccardimassimo@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Hi Hans-Juergen,
>
> This is the first time for me I read/know your name so I was a bit "shocked"
after reading your post.
> I'm sorry but I really didn't know there was in the past some your patents on
such kind of design.
> What I can say is that I fully agree (and can subscribe)all that written by
Roland in his post.
> By my side (and since many years) designing/investigating fast catadioptric
systems is one of my passions and what is called Riccardi-Honders just comes 7-8
years ago after publishing a paper on Applied Optics Journal (concerning
aspherical Houghton systems) and after exchanging some mails with Klaas Honders.
> I remember in that period he wrote me for knowing my opinions about
> his system (it was ,say, "Newtonian" form)and that he was intentioned to
patent it.
> So after that an idea arose in my mind : to investigate if it was possible to
develope a "Cassegrain" form for that concept.
> My original developement was a Cassegrain type "without"  secondary.
> I mean without a separated secondary. Infact the secondary was the central
area of the back surface of the front lens.
> This simplify a lot the manufacturing process (and this is one of
> commercial product designed by me). Then another version was developed with a
separated secondary (as that produced by Roland).
> I know it is possible to design a system with an unique glass,however my
designs also include different glass types.
> What I can say is that ,as it often happened in the past,it seems that I
indipendently developed a very similar system without knowing
> anything about you.
> On the other hand we are much more in the amateur side so the world
> of the patents is often a very far world.
>
> Best regards.
> Massimo
>




Hi Massimo,

some comments to your post you can find in my answer to Roland, so I confine
myself to the rest.
You mention systems without separated secondary, say, with spot secondary at the
rear side of the front lense. Such systems with convex secondary were presented
in the 1970th as patents and in the German journal `Sterne und Weltraum' as
well, by Wiedemann, mostly with different glasses but without full correction of
all aberrations (distortion not considered). Systems with concave secondary and
excellent correction but with the earlier stated drawbacks were presented by
Gallert as patent in 1996. For all these systems detailed constructional data
are available. I did not find any details of your developments to track your
system performance with programs like OSLO or any other free program.
I think, it would help me and perhaps other ATMs in evaluating your systems if
you could provide such data and the information, how you have found your
solutions, by optimization via a ray tracing program or by analytical derivation
of 3rd order aberrations.

You are right in that it often happens, that inventions are made independently
at nearly the same time. If it is so in this case, I was late in publishing my
results in the right forum.

Hans-J�rgen

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ap-ug/message/18094

Paul Gustafson

--- In ap-ug@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Geary" <lgeary@...> wrote:
>
> Can this be done on the Mark V as well?
>
> --Larry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ap-ug@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ap-ug@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> chris1011@...
> Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2010 4:34 PM
> To: ap-ug@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [ap-ug] collimation for older Baader/Zeiss binoviewer
>
> In a message dated 11/26/2010 5:26:22 PM Central Standard Time,
> mail.astro@... writes:
>
>
> > All I have to do is unscrewing the 3 scews from one of the ep holder and
> > move him around until the image merges for me ?
> >
>
> Yes, this is what you do.
>
> Rolando
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, or for general information on the ap-ug list
> see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ap-ugYahoo! Groups Links
>

I hope the "Mark 6" has brass clamprings for eyepieces, and simple
turn-to-focus (at any time) for individual eye focusing. I don't care if the
EP rotates or not.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

NASA has had it's hands full trying to get STS-133 off the ground... so instead
of bothering them I though I would bounce this question to the Group.



Calsky is nifty for predicting transits of the ISS relative to the Sun/Moon.
Does anyone have a resource (and/or a desire to conspire in this project) to
select the "best estimated" location to try and capture the ascending (under
boost of the SRBs) Shuttle transit of the nearly full Moon?



The current "guestimate" launch would be December 17, 2010 @ 8:51 est.



Up for a challenge?



:-)



Pete



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

8:51PM EST ... sorry!




----- Original Message -----
From: p14@...
To: "ap-ug" <ap-ug@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 5:49:20 PM
Subject: [ap-ug] Pending Shuttle launch three days prior to the full Moon

 






NASA has had it's hands full trying to get STS-133 off the ground... so instead
of bothering them I though I would bounce this question to the Group.

Calsky is nifty for predicting transits of the ISS relative to the Sun/Moon.
Does anyone have a resource (and/or a desire to conspire in this project) to
select the "best estimated" location to try and capture the ascending (under
boost of the SRBs) Shuttle transit of the nearly full Moon?

The current "guestimate" launch would be December 17, 2010 @ 8:51 est.

Up for a challenge?

:-)

Pete

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]