Adam Trionfo wrote:
> Bill Loguidice wrote:
> If [the Imagination Machine is] working, it won't go for under $400 these
days.

How about fully expanded and has the home brew Expanded basic?

Lance

Paul Thacker wrote:
>>
Wow, this group's gotten off to an active start.
>>

That's because the few members that have joined so far also happen to be active
members in other message groups.  We tend to "butt in" (as Bill put it a couple
of days ago on the Bally Alley group).  I thought I'd be a lurker on this group,
yet here I am, posting away!

>>
It turns out that the buttons on the controller] had little
metal tabs underneath to actually make form contacts,
and these had literally been attached with Scotch tape.
[...] Has anyone else looked inside a controller to see
if this is actually the way it came from the factory
as opposed to an earlier repair job?
>>

I don't find this strange.  What I do find strange is that there is SO little
information about this system available that something like this isn't common
knowledge.  If there is a FAQ for this system, then putting information like
this into a section called "How To Fix the Controller" would be top priority. 
This is the kind of information that people can use.

>>
I'd like to have an Imagination Machine, particularly
to try out the tape programs,
>>

If the IM eventually gets an emulator through MESS, will it support tape
loading, or will it be like the Astrocade emulator that only supports
cartridges?

>>
[Four-hundred dollars for an untested IM] is a lot to pay for something I may
not even be able to use.
>>

Agreed.  Then again, let's say it was KNOWN to be broken and BEYOND repair
(smashed or something).  If it came with information, would THAT alone make it
worth picking up?  To me, it would.  Still $400 is a lot of money.

>>
Unfortunately I don't have any documents, even boxes
and instructions, but hopefully we can get scans of
some of these on-line.
>>

So, again, who does have this type of stuff?  I'm really surprised this isn't
SOMEWHERE on the Internet already.

The more I hear about how pretty-much nothing has been done with this system in
terms of archival the more I understand what Ward Shrake calls Intenet Elves
(TM).  People just think that all this stuff gets on the 'Net "magically." 
Well, when there has been nothing done, it becomes REALLY clear that SOMEONE has
to do the work for it to get on the Internet.  I'm not saying I didn't
understand this at all, for Ballyalley.com really has taught me a LOT about
this, but seeing, basically, a barren field is pretty daunting.

>>
For the Astrocade, I never consider a tape archived unless I can
get it to load from a .wav file.
>>

Agreed.  I even see a difference between "archived" and "digitally archived." 
That is, the 2000-BAUD programs are digitally archived with Ballybin, while the
300-BAUD programs are just archived.  On that note, I wonder who in the world
would write digital archiving software for the Imagination Machine?

Adam
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Wow, this group's gotten off to an active start.
Anyway, I bought an APF M1000 (or is it MP--I don't
even remember) and some carts probably a couple of
years ago as part of a general drive to some old and
obscure systems and games dumped and emulated.  By far
my most active archiving has been for the Astrocade,
but it's not the only thing.  To my knowledge, the APF
M1000 was the only classic-era video game console
released in the United States that used cartridges
with ROM chips but didn't have any of the cartridges
dumped.  (I know, a lot of qualifications--I kept
thinking of other things that haven't been dumped
yet.)  Now I've collected every cart except for
Backgammon.

When I first got the system, the games would come up,
but I couldn't control them at all.  I noticed some
pieces rattling around in the controllers and one of
my roommates and I opened them up to take a look.  It
turns out that the buttons had little metal tabs
underneath to actually make form contacts, and these
had literally been attached with Scotch tape.  Not
surprisingly, the tape wasn't particularly sticky
anymore.  However, we were capable of repairing it
with new Scotch tape, and then we had fun playing
around for a little while.  We joked that someone on
an assembly line had the job of cutting Scotch tape
and attaching the tabs.  Has anyone else looked inside
a contoller to see if this is actually the way it came
from the factory as opposed to an earlier repair job?

I'd like to have an Imagination Machine, particularly
to try out the tape programs, and have even discussed
some for sale on eBay with Lance, but they have a
tendency to sell for $400 even when they're untested
or don't work correctly.  That's a lot to pay for
something I may not even be able to use.

Unfortunately I don't have any documents, even boxes
and instructions, but hopefully we can get scans of
some of these on-line.  Lance, could you explain more
about how you archive the tapes?  Are you able to load
recordings directly into the machine, or do you have
to transfer back to tape first because the IM has a
built-in cassette player?  For the Astrocade, I never
consider a tape archived unless I can get it to load
from a .wav file.

Paul


      
________________________________________________________________________________\
____
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Bill Loguidice wrote:
>>
Information is certainly important [...] However, information is no good
if you don't have the hardware to use that information on.
>>

True enough!  Especially in the case of the APF that has no mature working
emulator.  In the Sinclair Spectrum world I've bought books for the machine and
used them exclusevely on the fully mature emulators.  In THAT case I don't even
OWN (or NEED) the hardware.  In this case though, you are completely right. 
Without an Imagination Machine, you're sort of stuck if you JUST have the
documentation.  Ideally, of course, it would be nice to get them together.  It's
understood though that when collecting for thirty-year-old computers this is
hardly an ideal world.

Adam
_________________________________________________________________
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Information is certainly important - I know that first hand recently as an
owner of a couple of Panasonic JR-200U's with no system or BASIC
documentation. However, information is no good if you don't have the
hardware to use that information on.  I'd rather get the hardware and then
take my chances coming across the information.  There are always at least
some things one can find on their own while poking about, while having
information but no way to make use of it is kind of a frustrating experience
all on its own.  Certainly the two are related, but I definitely favor the
opposing viewpoint, Adam.


=================================
Bill Loguidice, Managing Director
Armchair Arcade, Inc.
http://www.armchairarcade.com
A PC Magazine Top 100 Website
=================================


-----Original Message-----
From: apf_consoles_and_computers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:apf_consoles_and_computers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Adam
Trionfo
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 11:05 AM
To: APF Consoles
Subject: [apf_consoles_and_computers] RE: So who has what in the world of
APF?þ


Bill Loguidice wrote:
>>
If [the Imagination Machine is] working, it won't go for under $400 these
days.  I hate going anywhere near that figure, but I must admit if it were
guaranteed working and came with at least the BASIC cartridge, I'd probably
go as high as $500.  I would go higher if it had any expansion stuff.
>>

Ouch.  That's a lot of money to spend on a computer that you won't use
much-- if at all.  Paul and I did split evenly the $1,500 cost of the Bob
Farbis collection for the Astrocade collection between us, but that
collection is special and it has unique items in it that we never could have
obtained anywhere else.  Now, if the IM came with all the newsletters, I
could see spending $500.  To me, information is more important than the
actual machine or cartridge sometimes.  For instance, now that Color BASIC
is archived for the Astrocade, we have have the ROM but no idea how to use
it.

Adam
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Yahoo! Groups Links

How common is the manual for BASIC for the IM?  Does anybody have it?  I think
that should be top priority to be scanned.

Adam
_________________________________________________________________
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Bill Loguidice wrote:
>>
If [the Imagination Machine is] working, it won't go for under $400 these days. 
I hate going anywhere near that figure, but I must admit if it were guaranteed
working and came with at least the BASIC cartridge, I'd probably go as high as
$500.  I would go higher if it had any expansion stuff.
>>

Ouch.  That's a lot of money to spend on a computer that you won't use much-- if
at all.  Paul and I did split evenly the $1,500 cost of the Bob Farbis
collection for the Astrocade collection between us, but that collection is
special and it has unique items in it that we never could have obtained anywhere
else.  Now, if the IM came with all the newsletters, I could see spending $500. 
To me, information is more important than the actual machine or cartridge
sometimes.  For instance, now that Color BASIC is archived for the Astrocade, we
have have the ROM but no idea how to use it.

Adam
_________________________________________________________________
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On Feb 11, 2008, at 1:59 PM, Bill Loguidice wrote:
> I realize there are six members at the moment, but who has what?


I have a system, but to be honest, I'm not sure if it's an M1000
or an MP1000 console.  I THINK it's the M1000...

I have most of the cartridges, but am still missing Backgammon,
BASIC, Capture, and possibly a working Space Destroyers.

> I'd love a working Imagination Machine, but those only show up on
> eBay sporadically, and often not working.


I missed a real nice one a few years ago, and it still bugs me a
bit, though not TOO much, since it went for a fair amount of money.
Oh well...
--
//*================================================================++
||  Russ Perry Jr   2175 S Tonne Dr #114   Arlington Hts IL 60005  ||
||  847-952-9729  RussPerryJr@...  VIDEOGAME COLLECTOR!  ||
++================================================================*//

Lance F. Squire wrote:
>
>
> As for fussy, Trying to go from the computer through a CD->tape
> converter, it can be tricky finding the right volume.
>

I stand corrected!

I knew I had some bad saves of tapes, but needed to confirm which ones
were which. So I set-up the Comp to CD-Tape converter and had a go.

Its really important to position the cable coming off the tape converter
properly, so the heads line up properly.

Once thats done, an approx 75% volume on the sound card works every time.

Lance

Adam Trionfo wrote:
>
>
>
> This message board should be added to the links area of the Wikipedia
> entries for:
>
> 1) APF Imagination Machine
> 2) APF M-1000
> 3) APF TV Fun
>

Thanks, Hadn't thought of that!

Lance

Adam Trionfo wrote:
>
>
> I take it then that the IM isn't NEARLY as fussy about the quality of
> audio for
> program input as the Astrocade is? What is the BAUD rate, anyway?
>

Off the top of my head, (known to be wrong on occasion) I'd say 1200 baud.

As for fussy, Trying to go from the computer through a CD->tape
converter, it can be tricky finding the right volume.

However, recording from the computer to a tape works quite well. Strange
that.

Also, there is a short header on the audio. if you miss hitting 'RETURN'
before its over you get garbage on the screen.

Whats that? On the screen?

Yes, Like the Bally, it loads a 'title' page with the program. However
it is just a separate block in front of the actual program.

And only on tapes.

Lance

Lance wrote:
>>
If you can send me an Audio recording, I can try it out on my IM!
>>

I take it then that the IM isn't NEARLY as fussy about the quality of audio for
program input as the Astrocade is?  What is the BAUD rate, anyway?

Adam
_________________________________________________________________
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This message board should be added to the links area of the Wikipedia entries
for:

1) APF Imagination Machine
2) APF M-1000
3) APF TV Fun

Lance, you've done this before, right?  If I remember, you've updated the
Astrocade Wikipedia page.

Adam
_________________________________________________________________
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Bill Loguidice wrote:
>
>
> Nope, certainly not criticizing it either.  I just didn't want to start
> a topic of such interest to me without more members.
>
> By the way, I've been poking around eBay looking for a bit of luck and
> came across and Best Offered  this, which was mismarked:
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280146286180
> <http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280146286180>
>
> It's the first time I've seen original IM software like that!  Now I
> just need an IM to use it... ;-)
>
>

Way to go Bill!

Thats one I don't have! And its Boxed with Manual to boot!!!

Congrats.

If you can send me an Audio recording, I can try it out on my IM!

Lance

Bill Loguidice wrote:
>
>
> I would think it wouldn't.  Have you ever tried it?  I wonder if the
> joystick keypads register as anything on the keyboard?
>
>

Both joystick keypads (joypads?) are totally independent of the keyboard.

Typing on them does nothing unless you specifically request and process
there input.

Lance

Bill wrote:
>>
I realize there are six members at the moment
>>

Six members isn't bad for just one day of getting people to join.  Sure, six
people a day are not always going to join-- and some people only stick around
for a short bit-- but six people isn't bad for a group just starting out.  I'm a
member of several Yahoogroups, and some are always more active than others.  A
group of ten or twenty can be a much more active group than a group of hundreds
(as I discovered with a Risk boardgame group).

>>
who has what?
>>

I don't have anything APF related, although Lance may be able to fix this for
me.  We'll see.  I've never seen an APF console in the wild.  Ever.  I have no
stories about seeing an Imagination Machine and not buying it and then later
regretting it.  Okay, wait.  I DID have that one cartridge that I happened
across, but I don't have it anymore.  I'm also not a collector anymore.  I have
neither the time, room, or patience.  If I collect anything, it's information--
which I share with other people as best that I can.  If I found all of the
newsletters for the APF machine, I'd scan them, and then sell 'em.  I don't feel
a great need to have originals.  Then again, you have to at LEAST have an
original console in order to play games on it.

>>
So, anyone else care to chime in with [...] their specific interest is in the
APF line?
>>

Besides it being the machine that always got away from me (when I wanted one for
my ONE cartridge), I find it interesting that a console had a computer upgrade
back in 1980 or so.  The fact that there was a newsletter is also intriguing to
me.  Not many consoles "back in the day" had this.  Then again, not all of them
needed it.  If the console is in the magazines then it doesn't need much user
support.  I've heard (but never seen) of Intellivision newsletters from the
early 1980's, but that's about it for top-shelf console (then again, the
Intellivision was a distant second place-- but second place is better than tenth
place!).  Obviously many user groups, even for popular computers, had group
newsletters, but usually they were nothing more than what the group had been up
to lately.  In my experience few have been like the Astrocade newsletters (doh! 
I'm off topic!).  In general, I guess that I'm just a fan of the underdog.  I
mean, ANYONE can read about classic systems like Atari or NES.  It takes WORK to
find information on little-known machines like the APF.  While I will always
enjoy reading about Atari-- there is just something magical about it for me--
I've come to prefer reading about the odd machines for me.

Adam
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toby wickwire wrote:
> The BASIC cart doesn't do anything without the
> Imagination Machine right?
>

Exactly right.

Without the IM keyboard the BASIC cart just turns the screen black.

Lance

Bill Loguidice wrote:
>
>
> I realize there are six members at the moment, but who has what?  I have
> one M1000 console and one MP1000 console, as well as some cartridge
> games, boxed and loose.  I'd love a working Imagination Machine, but
> those only show up on eBay sporadically, and often not working.  So,
> anyone else care to chime in with what they have or what their specific
> interest is in the APF line?
>

Well, there were things I wanted to discuss first, But this is a good idea.

I have a complete (Modified) APF Imagination Machine with a Modified
MP1000 attached.

I also have 2 MP1000s I had purchased in case I saw a keyboard without a
console.

I've been looking for the IM since I decided to do a Computer and Game
system Museum. But mostly because my Brother had one when they were new.

I'm going to have to re-create the game he made on his so long ago...

I would like to know if there are any differences in the M1000 and
MP1000 boards.

Specifically:

On the 3 MP1000s I have the RF cable is not connected to the two holes
on the top left corner of the board, but under the middle of the board
where there is an electronic 'hair ball' on the top of the board.

Was this patch incorporated into the M1000s or are they the same?

Lance

I've got an MP1000 and all the carts except BASIC loose.  Maybe on or
two of the games are boxed.  No Imagination Machine and I'm not really
looking for one.  The BASIC cart doesn't do anything without the
Imagination Machine right?

toby

On 2/11/08, Bill Loguidice <bill@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I realize there are six members at the moment, but who has what?  I have one
> M1000 console and one MP1000 console, as well as some cartridge games, boxed
> and loose.  I'd love a working Imagination Machine, but those only show up
> on eBay sporadically, and often not working.  So, anyone else care to chime
> in with what they have or what their specific interest is in the APF line?
>
>
> =================================
> Bill Loguidice, Managing Director
> Armchair Arcade, Inc.
> http://www.armchairarcade.com
> A PC Magazine Top 100 Website
> =================================
>
>

The latest version of MESS now has support for loading binary
cartridge images.

http://www.mess.org/download.php

This came about after I sent several of my cartridges to a MAME dumper
to be archived.  He dumped them all, but it appears that only the two
2K carts, Catena and Brickyard/Shooting Gallery, are good dumps.  The
carts use old and obscure ROM chips, so it's not clear how to dump
them.  I look forward to seeing if Lance has any better luck.  Still,
good progress so far.  The two carts are playable, though the
emulation in general still has problems, as is quickly seen if you try
to play the built-in Rocket Patrol game.

Here are notes from the dumping, with details such as the ROM chip
type.  I'll also upload the two good ROMs to the file area.  I'd
rather not put the bad dumps into general circulation.  If anyone has
suggestions on how to get good dumps, speak up.

APF-M1000ROM.BIN - APF-M1000 BIOS ROM containing built-in game.

Cart ROMs
---------
MG1001-1002.BIN - Catena
                   Cart label says MG1001, but on the ROM it says MG1002.
                   ROM is type Motorola MCM68A316.
                   Read as 2716

MG1003.BIN      - Hangman/Tic Tac Toe/Doodle
                   Cart label says MG1003.
                   ROM also says MG1003.
                   ROM is type Sygnetics CN19014 (unknown type, but it
must be compatible since the cart is standard).
                   Read as 2732

MG1004.BIN      - Bowling/Micro Match
                   Cart label says MG1004.
                   ROM also says MG1004.
                   ROM is type GI9332B.
                   Read as 2732

MG1005.BIN      - Brickdown/Shooting Gallery
                   Cart label says MG1005.
                   ROM also says MG1005.
                   ROM is type Motorola SCM91317P.
                   Read as 2716

MG1007.BIN      - Blackjack
                   Cart label says MG1007.
                   ROM also says MG1007.
                   ROM is type GI9332B.
                   Read as 2732

MG1009.BIN      - Casino 1:Roulette/Keno/Slots
                   Cart label says MG1009.
                   ROM also says MG1009.
                   ROM is type Sygnetics CN19192 (unknown type, but it
must be compatible since the cart is standard).
                   Read as 2732

MG1010.BIN      - UFO/Sea Monsters/Break It Down/Rebuild/Shoot(with
variations)
                   Cart label says MG1010.
                   ROM also says MG1010.
                   ROM is type Sygnetics CN19192 (unknown type, but it
must be compatible since the cart is standard).
                   Read as 2732

MG1011.BIN      - Pinball/Dungeon Hunt/Blockout (with 3 versions)
                   Cart label says MG1011.
                   ROM also says MG1011.
                   ROM is type Sygnetics CN19193 (unknown type, but it
must be compatible since the cart is standard).
                   Read as 2732

MG1012.BIN      - Boxing
                   Cart label says MG1012.
                   ROM also says MG1012.
                   ROM is type Sygnetics CN19254 (unknown type, but it
must be compatible since the cart is standard).
                   Read as 2732


Paul

We will be discussing the archiving of carts and tapes, Inner workings
and programming and most anything else we can find out about the APF
M/MP1000 and Imagination Machine systems.

You don't have to have a system to play, but it helps.

Unfortunately, there is only 1 semi proper emulator for the APF, and
its not MESS.

its the apf2002.zip on Mr Greenfields page

See links for Larry Greenfield's page. He won't be joining us
initially, but may appear later.

Later, I'll be uploading many Imagination Machine tapes to the File
section. Partly as off site back-up :)

Some tapes are from the 'IM-1 in a Million' newsletters about the APF
computer & game system. Although we know of the existence of this
newsletter, we currently don't have any to archive.

If you know anything about these systems or related systems please
feel free to share.

The more the merrier.

Lance F. Squire