----- Original Message -----

From: Miriam Vieni

To: audible groups

Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 10:31 AM

Subject: [audible] The Lacuna

 

After all the discussion about Kingsolver's narration of this book, I did
decide to buy it because I really wanted to read it and didn't know if , or
when, another version would become available to me that I would like better.
I also suspected that the sample might sound worse than the book itself.
And that turned out to be true. She really did a much better job than we
anticipated. She is especially skilled at reading the Spanish phrases and
doing some of the Mexican accents. She also didn't do badly at all with a
southern lady and a Jewish lawyer from New York. I don't think it's
necessary to do all these accents, but it seems to be accepted practice in
audio books. And, by the way, I also really liked the book. The story is
told mostly by journal entries, newspaper articles and letters so I thought
I'd have difficulty being drawn into it but I had no trouble at all,
probably because I was so interested in the subject matter. I'd forgotten
how virulent the anti-communist era was after World War II but this book
certainly reminded me. It also provided a lovely picture of Mexican life
and culture that isn't usually made available to North Americans and I
finally learned, without having to read a dry history book, about what went
on between Lenin, Trotsky, and Stalin. The main character of the book is
sweet and loveable.

Miriam.

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4610 (20091115) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

One of the really sad things to me is how many Jews, certainly the Israeli
government, have become so obsessed with victimhood that they don't realize
that they are now projecting the same attitudes and practices onto Muslims
that they suffered.  And I don't deny the terror of being the object of
suicide bombers.  This is very painful to me because my background is Jewish
and like everyone else of my generation, I grew up with the horrors of the
holocaust.  But I know that torture and murder are torture and murder, no
matter who commits them.  And every country and ethnic group that does these
things, justifies them by history.

Miriam
----- Original Message -----
From: "Barry" <barryem@...>
To: <audible@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 6:08 PM
Subject: Re: [audible] The Lacuna


History often repeats itself because people don't make the connections
necessary to see that events today have the same meaning as past events with
only a few changed circumstances.

This morning my father, who loves to pass around all kinds of chain letters
that he finds, sent all of us a post containing a speech by a European
explaining that the hated Muslims are taking over the neighborhoods of
European cities and how they love to kill Christians and how they are a
terrible blight, and giving statistics to show how this could mean the end
of western civilization.  There was much hatred and vitriol in the speech.

My Dad, who all his life has hated racism and, as a Jew, has hated
anti-semitism, doesn't see that this is the same thing.  Arabs are semites
but that just never occurred to him.  He happily passed the post on to
everyone in his mailing list thinking he was doing a good thing.

Barry


--- On Sun, 11/15/09, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...> wrote:

> From: Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...>
> Subject: Re: [audible] The Lacuna
> To: audible@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 1:22 PM
> OK. I thought it was Central
> America but I guess you're right -North
> America consists of U.S., Canada, and Mexico.
> Having just finished it, the
> natural progression was to next read Tallgrass which I got
> from NLS. So
> far, a very sweet book. I think your word for it was
> "sane".Over the years,
> I have painlessly learned a lot of history from reading
> good novels. The
> more I read, the more evident it becomes how history
> repeats itself and how
> we don't seem to learn from past experience. There's
> a scene in The Lacuna,
> government forces attacking the veterans of World War I who
> have set up camp
> in Washington D.C. to demand the pensions promised to them
> at the end of the
> war. I think it was $500 for each veteran. It's
> the depression and they're
> in this camp with their families. I know I've read
> about it but reading the
> book, I felt like I was right there witnessing it.
> Another thing that
> struck me. People talk about the main stream media
> being one sided. Well,
> this is not new. Many of those newspaper articles
> quoted in the book are
> real articles that Kingsolver researched. Sixty years
> from now, someone
> will write a novel about what is happening today (if we've
> survived) and it
> would be interesting to see what is happening now,
> reproduced in a
> historical novel.
>
> Miriam
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Barry" <barryem@...>
> To: <audible@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 1:42 PM
> Subject: Re: [audible] The Lacuna
>
>
> Thanks for this review. Maybe I'll get it from
> Audible after all. I'll
> have to think about it some more.
>
> By the way, Mexico is part of North America. :)
>
> Barry
>
>
> --- On Sun, 11/15/09, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...>
> wrote:
>
> > From: Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...>
> > Subject: [audible] The Lacuna
> > To: "audible groups" <audible@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 10:31 AM
> > After all the discussion about
> > Kingsolver's narration of this book, I did
> > decide to buy it because I really wanted to read it
> and
> > didn't know if , or
> > when, another version would become available to me
> that I
> > would like better.
> > I also suspected that the sample might sound worse
> than the
> > book itself.
> > And that turned out to be true. She really did a much
> > better job than we
> > anticipated. She is especially skilled at reading the
> > Spanish phrases and
> > doing some of the Mexican accents. She also didn't do
> > badly at all with a
> > southern lady and a Jewish lawyer from New York. I
> > don't think it's
> > necessary to do all these accents, but it seems to be
> > accepted practice in
> > audio books. And, by the way, I also really liked the
> > book. The story is
> > told mostly by journal entries, newspaper articles
> and
> > letters so I thought
> > I'd have difficulty being drawn into it but I had no
> > trouble at all,
> > probably because I was so interested in the subject
> > matter. I'd forgotten
> > how virulent the anti-communist era was after World
> War II
> > but this book
> > certainly reminded me. It also provided a lovely
> > picture of Mexican life
> > and culture that isn't usually made available to
> North
> > Americans and I
> > finally learned, without having to read a dry history
> book,
> > about what went
> > on between Lenin, Trotsky, and Stalin. The main
> > character of the book is
> > sweet and loveable.
> >
> > Miriam.
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> > audible-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
> audible-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>

I fear fundamentalists of any religion (and that includes mine).  Every
religion has its zealots, and as nearly as I can tell, none of the founders
of those religions practiced that sort of exclusion of all else.  All sorts
of horrors have been perpetrated in the name of religious zeal.

Sharol



-----Original Message-----
From: audible@yahoogroups.com [mailto:audible@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Miriam Vieni
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 6:55 PM
To: audible@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [audible] The Lacuna

One of the really sad things to me is how many Jews, certainly the Israeli
government, have become so obsessed with victimhood that they don't realize
that they are now projecting the same attitudes and practices onto Muslims
that they suffered.  And I don't deny the terror of being the object of
suicide bombers.  This is very painful to me because my background is Jewish

and like everyone else of my generation, I grew up with the horrors of the
holocaust.  But I know that torture and murder are torture and murder, no
matter who commits them.  And every country and ethnic group that does these

things, justifies them by history.

Miriam

Any ideas out there for books with Christmas themes?  I'm putting
together some content to place on an SD card to have ready to stick
into my digital audio player this December.  I already have Christmas
music, a one-man performance of "A Christmas Carol" and a Stephanie
Plum Christmas story by janet Evanovich I picked up a couple of years
ago.  I'm not looking for just the old standards but also any
contemporary stories with Christmas themes.

Thanks in advance.



    David Justice

I highly, highly recommend The Christmas Train, by David Baldacci.  This has
become a Christmas tradition for me, to read this book every holiday season.
it has a little mystery, a little light romance, and delightful sometimes
quirky characters.  I can't recommend it highly enough.

I also recommend holidays on Ice by David Sedaris, as long as you don't mind
something a little darker by hilariously funny!

sherry


-----Original Message-----
From: audible@yahoogroups.com [mailto:audible@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf
Of David Justice
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 7:05 PM
To: audible@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [audible] Books with Christmas theme?


Any ideas out there for books with Christmas themes?  I'm putting
together some content to place on an SD card to have ready to stick
into my digital audio player this December.  I already have Christmas
music, a one-man performance of "A Christmas Carol" and a Stephanie
Plum Christmas story by janet Evanovich I picked up a couple of years
ago.  I'm not looking for just the old standards but also any
contemporary stories with Christmas themes.

Thanks in advance.



    David Justice

The alternative for Israel is to be wiped off the map.

Yes there are excesses.  If I had neighbors who were constantly bombarding and
attacking me I might get excessive, too.

When I was in jr. high school I remember a kid that was a lot bigger than me
who, for some reason, loved to pick on me and try to make my life miserable. 
One day, after months of picking on me and beating up on me and stealing stuff
from me, we were in crafts class and he came up behind me with an electric drill
with no bit in the chuck but the prongs of the chuck sticking out.  He stuck
that in my back before I saw him there and he turned the drill on, ripping my
shirt to shreds and ripping some flesh too.  Without thinking I picked up a
metal chair and hit him with it, full force, knocking him down.  Then, enraged,
while he was down, I hit him a few more times with the chair till some others
pulled me away from him.  He spent a week in the hospital.  Because there were
lots of witnesses I only got a reprimand.

The first blow was purely self defense.  It was not only justified, it was long
overdue.  It ended the situation and no more was needed.

The following blows were because I lost my temper.  They weren't needed.  They
were very excessive.  Too bad!

No, I'm not a violent person.  But sometimes enough is enough.  And sometimes
when you've had enough you get fed up and you overreact.

The moral of the story is contained in the fact that that kid never came near me
again.

I wish we lived in a world where a small number of people surrounded by millions
who are constantly trying to kill them, could be saints and treat them as equals
and always be fair to them and not get themselves killed in the process.  But
that's not how it works.  Jews are mistreated by Palestinians and they mistreat
the Palestinians in return.  It's not good but it's human nature.

At this point the history no longer matters.  How they got into this situation
has little to do with anything.  They're in it and they have to deal with it and
they do.

Barry


--- On Sun, 11/15/09, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...> wrote:

> From: Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...>
> Subject: Re: [audible] The Lacuna
> To: audible@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 6:54 PM
> One of the really sad things to me is
> how many Jews, certainly the Israeli
> government, have become so obsessed with victimhood that
> they don't realize
> that they are now projecting the same attitudes and
> practices onto Muslims
> that they suffered.  And I don't deny the terror of
> being the object of
> suicide bombers.  This is very painful to me because
> my background is Jewish
> and like everyone else of my generation, I grew up with the
> horrors of the
> holocaust.  But I know that torture and murder are
> torture and murder, no
> matter who commits them.  And every country and ethnic
> group that does these
> things, justifies them by history.
>
> Miriam
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Barry" <barryem@...>
> To: <audible@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 6:08 PM
> Subject: Re: [audible] The Lacuna
>
>
> History often repeats itself because people don't make the
> connections
> necessary to see that events today have the same meaning as
> past events with
> only a few changed circumstances.
>
> This morning my father, who loves to pass around all kinds
> of chain letters
> that he finds, sent all of us a post containing a speech by
> a European
> explaining that the hated Muslims are taking over the
> neighborhoods of
> European cities and how they love to kill Christians and
> how they are a
> terrible blight, and giving statistics to show how this
> could mean the end
> of western civilization.  There was much hatred and
> vitriol in the speech.
>
> My Dad, who all his life has hated racism and, as a Jew,
> has hated
> anti-semitism, doesn't see that this is the same
> thing.  Arabs are semites
> but that just never occurred to him.  He happily
> passed the post on to
> everyone in his mailing list thinking he was doing a good
> thing.
>
> Barry
>
>
> --- On Sun, 11/15/09, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...>
> wrote:
>
> > From: Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...>
> > Subject: Re: [audible] The Lacuna
> > To: audible@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 1:22 PM
> > OK. I thought it was Central
> > America but I guess you're right -North
> > America consists of U.S., Canada, and Mexico.
> > Having just finished it, the
> > natural progression was to next read Tallgrass which I
> got
> > from NLS. So
> > far, a very sweet book. I think your word for it was
> > "sane".Over the years,
> > I have painlessly learned a lot of history from
> reading
> > good novels. The
> > more I read, the more evident it becomes how history
> > repeats itself and how
> > we don't seem to learn from past experience. There's
> > a scene in The Lacuna,
> > government forces attacking the veterans of World War
> I who
> > have set up camp
> > in Washington D.C. to demand the pensions promised to
> them
> > at the end of the
> > war. I think it was $500 for each veteran. It's
> > the depression and they're
> > in this camp with their families. I know I've read
> > about it but reading the
> > book, I felt like I was right there witnessing it.
> > Another thing that
> > struck me. People talk about the main stream media
> > being one sided. Well,
> > this is not new. Many of those newspaper articles
> > quoted in the book are
> > real articles that Kingsolver researched. Sixty years
> > from now, someone
> > will write a novel about what is happening today (if
> we've
> > survived) and it
> > would be interesting to see what is happening now,
> > reproduced in a
> > historical novel.
> >
> > Miriam
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Barry" <barryem@...>
> > To: <audible@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 1:42 PM
> > Subject: Re: [audible] The Lacuna
> >
> >
> > Thanks for this review. Maybe I'll get it from
> > Audible after all. I'll
> > have to think about it some more.
> >
> > By the way, Mexico is part of North America. :)
> >
> > Barry
> >
> >
> > --- On Sun, 11/15/09, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > From: Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...>
> > > Subject: [audible] The Lacuna
> > > To: "audible groups" <audible@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 10:31 AM
> > > After all the discussion about
> > > Kingsolver's narration of this book, I did
> > > decide to buy it because I really wanted to read
> it
> > and
> > > didn't know if , or
> > > when, another version would become available to
> me
> > that I
> > > would like better.
> > > I also suspected that the sample might sound
> worse
> > than the
> > > book itself.
> > > And that turned out to be true. She really did a
> much
> > > better job than we
> > > anticipated. She is especially skilled at reading
> the
> > > Spanish phrases and
> > > doing some of the Mexican accents. She also
> didn't do
> > > badly at all with a
> > > southern lady and a Jewish lawyer from New York.
> I
> > > don't think it's
> > > necessary to do all these accents, but it seems
> to be
> > > accepted practice in
> > > audio books. And, by the way, I also really liked
> the
> > > book. The story is
> > > told mostly by journal entries, newspaper
> articles
> > and
> > > letters so I thought
> > > I'd have difficulty being drawn into it but I had
> no
> > > trouble at all,
> > > probably because I was so interested in the
> subject
> > > matter. I'd forgotten
> > > how virulent the anti-communist era was after
> World
> > War II
> > > but this book
> > > certainly reminded me. It also provided a lovely
> > > picture of Mexican life
> > > and culture that isn't usually made available to
> > North
> > > Americans and I
> > > finally learned, without having to read a dry
> history
> > book,
> > > about what went
> > > on between Lenin, Trotsky, and Stalin. The main
> > > character of the book is
> > > sweet and loveable.
> > >
> > > Miriam.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > > audible-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> > audible-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>     audible-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>

I guess we see the solution for Israel differently.    There was a time when
Israel was a small battered state at the mercy of hostile neighbors.  It is
now a nuclear power with the backing of U.S. military power.  And I think
that the history does matter.  We grew up in the shadow of the holocaust
believing a story which justified the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians.
Now, in the light of what has taken place, many of us see the story a bit
differently.  But the old story is still there, in the minds of so many
people, informing what they do and what they believe.  There is a new broup
called J Street which is a pro Israel group, started by a guy who grew up in
Israel and this group sees the story differently.  There are other groups as
well, including some originating in Israel.  So it's now an issue with a
rainbow of visions.

Miriam
----- Original Message -----
From: "Barry" <barryem@...>
To: <audible@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 11:48 PM
Subject: Re: [audible] The Lacuna


The alternative for Israel is to be wiped off the map.

Yes there are excesses.  If I had neighbors who were constantly bombarding
and attacking me I might get excessive, too.

When I was in jr. high school I remember a kid that was a lot bigger than me
who, for some reason, loved to pick on me and try to make my life miserable.
One day, after months of picking on me and beating up on me and stealing
stuff from me, we were in crafts class and he came up behind me with an
electric drill with no bit in the chuck but the prongs of the chuck sticking
out.  He stuck that in my back before I saw him there and he turned the
drill on, ripping my shirt to shreds and ripping some flesh too.  Without
thinking I picked up a metal chair and hit him with it, full force, knocking
him down.  Then, enraged, while he was down, I hit him a few more times with
the chair till some others pulled me away from him.  He spent a week in the
hospital.  Because there were lots of witnesses I only got a reprimand.

The first blow was purely self defense.  It was not only justified, it was
long overdue.  It ended the situation and no more was needed.

The following blows were because I lost my temper.  They weren't needed.
They were very excessive.  Too bad!

No, I'm not a violent person.  But sometimes enough is enough.  And
sometimes when you've had enough you get fed up and you overreact.

The moral of the story is contained in the fact that that kid never came
near me again.

I wish we lived in a world where a small number of people surrounded by
millions who are constantly trying to kill them, could be saints and treat
them as equals and always be fair to them and not get themselves killed in
the process.  But that's not how it works.  Jews are mistreated by
Palestinians and they mistreat the Palestinians in return.  It's not good
but it's human nature.

At this point the history no longer matters.  How they got into this
situation has little to do with anything.  They're in it and they have to
deal with it and they do.

Barry


--- On Sun, 11/15/09, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...> wrote:

> From: Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...>
> Subject: Re: [audible] The Lacuna
> To: audible@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 6:54 PM
> One of the really sad things to me is
> how many Jews, certainly the Israeli
> government, have become so obsessed with victimhood that
> they don't realize
> that they are now projecting the same attitudes and
> practices onto Muslims
> that they suffered. And I don't deny the terror of
> being the object of
> suicide bombers. This is very painful to me because
> my background is Jewish
> and like everyone else of my generation, I grew up with the
> horrors of the
> holocaust. But I know that torture and murder are
> torture and murder, no
> matter who commits them. And every country and ethnic
> group that does these
> things, justifies them by history.
>
> Miriam
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Barry" <barryem@...>
> To: <audible@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 6:08 PM
> Subject: Re: [audible] The Lacuna
>
>
> History often repeats itself because people don't make the
> connections
> necessary to see that events today have the same meaning as
> past events with
> only a few changed circumstances.
>
> This morning my father, who loves to pass around all kinds
> of chain letters
> that he finds, sent all of us a post containing a speech by
> a European
> explaining that the hated Muslims are taking over the
> neighborhoods of
> European cities and how they love to kill Christians and
> how they are a
> terrible blight, and giving statistics to show how this
> could mean the end
> of western civilization. There was much hatred and
> vitriol in the speech.
>
> My Dad, who all his life has hated racism and, as a Jew,
> has hated
> anti-semitism, doesn't see that this is the same
> thing. Arabs are semites
> but that just never occurred to him. He happily
> passed the post on to
> everyone in his mailing list thinking he was doing a good
> thing.
>
> Barry
>
>
> --- On Sun, 11/15/09, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...>
> wrote:
>
> > From: Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...>
> > Subject: Re: [audible] The Lacuna
> > To: audible@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 1:22 PM
> > OK. I thought it was Central
> > America but I guess you're right -North
> > America consists of U.S., Canada, and Mexico.
> > Having just finished it, the
> > natural progression was to next read Tallgrass which I
> got
> > from NLS. So
> > far, a very sweet book. I think your word for it was
> > "sane".Over the years,
> > I have painlessly learned a lot of history from
> reading
> > good novels. The
> > more I read, the more evident it becomes how history
> > repeats itself and how
> > we don't seem to learn from past experience. There's
> > a scene in The Lacuna,
> > government forces attacking the veterans of World War
> I who
> > have set up camp
> > in Washington D.C. to demand the pensions promised to
> them
> > at the end of the
> > war. I think it was $500 for each veteran. It's
> > the depression and they're
> > in this camp with their families. I know I've read
> > about it but reading the
> > book, I felt like I was right there witnessing it.
> > Another thing that
> > struck me. People talk about the main stream media
> > being one sided. Well,
> > this is not new. Many of those newspaper articles
> > quoted in the book are
> > real articles that Kingsolver researched. Sixty years
> > from now, someone
> > will write a novel about what is happening today (if
> we've
> > survived) and it
> > would be interesting to see what is happening now,
> > reproduced in a
> > historical novel.
> >
> > Miriam
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Barry" <barryem@...>
> > To: <audible@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 1:42 PM
> > Subject: Re: [audible] The Lacuna
> >
> >
> > Thanks for this review. Maybe I'll get it from
> > Audible after all. I'll
> > have to think about it some more.
> >
> > By the way, Mexico is part of North America. :)
> >
> > Barry
> >
> >
> > --- On Sun, 11/15/09, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > From: Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...>
> > > Subject: [audible] The Lacuna
> > > To: "audible groups" <audible@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 10:31 AM
> > > After all the discussion about
> > > Kingsolver's narration of this book, I did
> > > decide to buy it because I really wanted to read
> it
> > and
> > > didn't know if , or
> > > when, another version would become available to
> me
> > that I
> > > would like better.
> > > I also suspected that the sample might sound
> worse
> > than the
> > > book itself.
> > > And that turned out to be true. She really did a
> much
> > > better job than we
> > > anticipated. She is especially skilled at reading
> the
> > > Spanish phrases and
> > > doing some of the Mexican accents. She also
> didn't do
> > > badly at all with a
> > > southern lady and a Jewish lawyer from New York.
> I
> > > don't think it's
> > > necessary to do all these accents, but it seems
> to be
> > > accepted practice in
> > > audio books. And, by the way, I also really liked
> the
> > > book. The story is
> > > told mostly by journal entries, newspaper
> articles
> > and
> > > letters so I thought
> > > I'd have difficulty being drawn into it but I had
> no
> > > trouble at all,
> > > probably because I was so interested in the
> subject
> > > matter. I'd forgotten
> > > how virulent the anti-communist era was after
> World
> > War II
> > > but this book
> > > certainly reminded me. It also provided a lovely
> > > picture of Mexican life
> > > and culture that isn't usually made available to
> > North
> > > Americans and I
> > > finally learned, without having to read a dry
> history
> > book,
> > > about what went
> > > on between Lenin, Trotsky, and Stalin. The main
> > > character of the book is
> > > sweet and loveable.
> > >
> > > Miriam.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > > audible-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> > audible-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
> audible-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>

Of course ethnic cleansing is a bad thing.  There are radical Israelis just as
there are radicals everywhere.  Nobody with any sense or humanity wants that.

I think the goals for Israel should be to seek a reasonable peace that includes
working toward freedom and equality for everyone, Jews, Arabs and anyone else
living there.  In the meantime I'd like to see Israel try to significantly
improve the conditions of the Palistians living in Israel.  That will make a big
difference in getting to peace and besides, it's the right thing to do.

At the same time excesses are undertandable and can be expected in that kind of
super-heated situation.  Excesses on both sides.  That's human nature.

I remember Golda Meir saying, after one of the wars, that the worse tragedy
wasn't that the Palestinians killed Jews, it was that Jews were forced to kill
Palestinians.  She knew what came of having to kill, and she was right.

By the way, a very interesting novel about Israel and just what we're talking
about, as well as the Christian involvement in all this, is Robert Stone's
"Damascus Gate".  It's a book you won't soon forget.

Interestingly, Audible has 2 versions of this: the 9 hour abridgement narrated
by Frank Muller, and a 19 hour unabridged version narrated by George Guidall.  I
heard Frank Muller's version years ago, thinking it was unabridged.  I now have
the Guidall version as well and plan to listen to it before long.  It's nice to
have a choice between two such good narrators.

I also have "The Good Earth", which I've heard a couple of times beautifully
narrated by George Guidall, and another version narrated by Anthony Heald,
another of my favorite narrators.  Life is good! :)

Barry


Barry


--- On Mon, 11/16/09, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...> wrote:

> From: Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...>
> Subject: Re: [audible] The Lacuna
> To: audible@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Monday, November 16, 2009, 9:53 AM
> I guess we see the solution for
> Israel differently.    There was a time when
> Israel was a small battered state at the mercy of hostile
> neighbors.  It is
> now a nuclear power with the backing of U.S. military
> power.  And I think
> that the history does matter.  We grew up in the
> shadow of the holocaust
> believing a story which justified the ethnic cleansing of
> the Palestinians.
> Now, in the light of what has taken place, many of us see
> the story a bit
> differently.  But the old story is still there, in the
> minds of so many
> people, informing what they do and what they believe. 
> There is a new broup
> called J Street which is a pro Israel group, started by a
> guy who grew up in
> Israel and this group sees the story differently. 
> There are other groups as
> well, including some originating in Israel.  So it's
> now an issue with a
> rainbow of visions.
>
> Miriam
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Barry" <barryem@...>
> To: <audible@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 11:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [audible] The Lacuna
>
>
> The alternative for Israel is to be wiped off the map.
>
> Yes there are excesses.  If I had neighbors who were
> constantly bombarding
> and attacking me I might get excessive, too.
>
> When I was in jr. high school I remember a kid that was a
> lot bigger than me
> who, for some reason, loved to pick on me and try to make
> my life miserable.
> One day, after months of picking on me and beating up on me
> and stealing
> stuff from me, we were in crafts class and he came up
> behind me with an
> electric drill with no bit in the chuck but the prongs of
> the chuck sticking
> out.  He stuck that in my back before I saw him there
> and he turned the
> drill on, ripping my shirt to shreds and ripping some flesh
> too.  Without
> thinking I picked up a metal chair and hit him with it,
> full force, knocking
> him down.  Then, enraged, while he was down, I hit him
> a few more times with
> the chair till some others pulled me away from him. 
> He spent a week in the
> hospital.  Because there were lots of witnesses I only
> got a reprimand.
>
> The first blow was purely self defense.  It was not
> only justified, it was
> long overdue.  It ended the situation and no more was
> needed.
>
> The following blows were because I lost my temper. 
> They weren't needed.
> They were very excessive.  Too bad!
>
> No, I'm not a violent person.  But sometimes enough is
> enough.  And
> sometimes when you've had enough you get fed up and you
> overreact.
>
> The moral of the story is contained in the fact that that
> kid never came
> near me again.
>
> I wish we lived in a world where a small number of people
> surrounded by
> millions who are constantly trying to kill them, could be
> saints and treat
> them as equals and always be fair to them and not get
> themselves killed in
> the process.  But that's not how it works.  Jews
> are mistreated by
> Palestinians and they mistreat the Palestinians in
> return.  It's not good
> but it's human nature.
>
> At this point the history no longer matters.  How they
> got into this
> situation has little to do with anything.  They're in
> it and they have to
> deal with it and they do.
>
> Barry
>
>
> --- On Sun, 11/15/09, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...>
> wrote:
>
> > From: Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...>
> > Subject: Re: [audible] The Lacuna
> > To: audible@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 6:54 PM
> > One of the really sad things to me is
> > how many Jews, certainly the Israeli
> > government, have become so obsessed with victimhood
> that
> > they don't realize
> > that they are now projecting the same attitudes and
> > practices onto Muslims
> > that they suffered. And I don't deny the terror of
> > being the object of
> > suicide bombers. This is very painful to me because
> > my background is Jewish
> > and like everyone else of my generation, I grew up
> with the
> > horrors of the
> > holocaust. But I know that torture and murder are
> > torture and murder, no
> > matter who commits them. And every country and ethnic
> > group that does these
> > things, justifies them by history.
> >
> > Miriam
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Barry" <barryem@...>
> > To: <audible@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 6:08 PM
> > Subject: Re: [audible] The Lacuna
> >
> >
> > History often repeats itself because people don't make
> the
> > connections
> > necessary to see that events today have the same
> meaning as
> > past events with
> > only a few changed circumstances.
> >
> > This morning my father, who loves to pass around all
> kinds
> > of chain letters
> > that he finds, sent all of us a post containing a
> speech by
> > a European
> > explaining that the hated Muslims are taking over the
> > neighborhoods of
> > European cities and how they love to kill Christians
> and
> > how they are a
> > terrible blight, and giving statistics to show how
> this
> > could mean the end
> > of western civilization. There was much hatred and
> > vitriol in the speech.
> >
> > My Dad, who all his life has hated racism and, as a
> Jew,
> > has hated
> > anti-semitism, doesn't see that this is the same
> > thing. Arabs are semites
> > but that just never occurred to him. He happily
> > passed the post on to
> > everyone in his mailing list thinking he was doing a
> good
> > thing.
> >
> > Barry
> >
> >
> > --- On Sun, 11/15/09, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > From: Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...>
> > > Subject: Re: [audible] The Lacuna
> > > To: audible@yahoogroups.com
> > > Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 1:22 PM
> > > OK. I thought it was Central
> > > America but I guess you're right -North
> > > America consists of U.S., Canada, and Mexico.
> > > Having just finished it, the
> > > natural progression was to next read Tallgrass
> which I
> > got
> > > from NLS. So
> > > far, a very sweet book. I think your word for it
> was
> > > "sane".Over the years,
> > > I have painlessly learned a lot of history from
> > reading
> > > good novels. The
> > > more I read, the more evident it becomes how
> history
> > > repeats itself and how
> > > we don't seem to learn from past experience.
> There's
> > > a scene in The Lacuna,
> > > government forces attacking the veterans of World
> War
> > I who
> > > have set up camp
> > > in Washington D.C. to demand the pensions
> promised to
> > them
> > > at the end of the
> > > war. I think it was $500 for each veteran. It's
> > > the depression and they're
> > > in this camp with their families. I know I've
> read
> > > about it but reading the
> > > book, I felt like I was right there witnessing
> it.
> > > Another thing that
> > > struck me. People talk about the main stream
> media
> > > being one sided. Well,
> > > this is not new. Many of those newspaper
> articles
> > > quoted in the book are
> > > real articles that Kingsolver researched. Sixty
> years
> > > from now, someone
> > > will write a novel about what is happening today
> (if
> > we've
> > > survived) and it
> > > would be interesting to see what is happening
> now,
> > > reproduced in a
> > > historical novel.
> > >
> > > Miriam
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Barry" <barryem@...>
> > > To: <audible@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 1:42 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [audible] The Lacuna
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks for this review. Maybe I'll get it from
> > > Audible after all. I'll
> > > have to think about it some more.
> > >
> > > By the way, Mexico is part of North America. :)
> > >
> > > Barry
> > >
> > >
> > > --- On Sun, 11/15/09, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > From: Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...>
> > > > Subject: [audible] The Lacuna
> > > > To: "audible groups" <audible@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 10:31 AM
> > > > After all the discussion about
> > > > Kingsolver's narration of this book, I did
> > > > decide to buy it because I really wanted to
> read
> > it
> > > and
> > > > didn't know if , or
> > > > when, another version would become available
> to
> > me
> > > that I
> > > > would like better.
> > > > I also suspected that the sample might
> sound
> > worse
> > > than the
> > > > book itself.
> > > > And that turned out to be true. She really
> did a
> > much
> > > > better job than we
> > > > anticipated. She is especially skilled at
> reading
> > the
> > > > Spanish phrases and
> > > > doing some of the Mexican accents. She also
> > didn't do
> > > > badly at all with a
> > > > southern lady and a Jewish lawyer from New
> York.
> > I
> > > > don't think it's
> > > > necessary to do all these accents, but it
> seems
> > to be
> > > > accepted practice in
> > > > audio books. And, by the way, I also really
> liked
> > the
> > > > book. The story is
> > > > told mostly by journal entries, newspaper
> > articles
> > > and
> > > > letters so I thought
> > > > I'd have difficulty being drawn into it but
> I had
> > no
> > > > trouble at all,
> > > > probably because I was so interested in the
> > subject
> > > > matter. I'd forgotten
> > > > how virulent the anti-communist era was
> after
> > World
> > > War II
> > > > but this book
> > > > certainly reminded me. It also provided a
> lovely
> > > > picture of Mexican life
> > > > and culture that isn't usually made
> available to
> > > North
> > > > Americans and I
> > > > finally learned, without having to read a
> dry
> > history
> > > book,
> > > > about what went
> > > > on between Lenin, Trotsky, and Stalin. The
> main
> > > > character of the book is
> > > > sweet and loveable.
> > > >
> > > > Miriam.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > audible-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > > audible-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> > audible-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>     audible-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>

Have you read the book by Richard North Patterson, The Exile?  It is a well
researched, very exciting novel which also deals with the Israeli
Palestinian conflict.  I read the NLS version but I'm sure it's on Audible.
I read his latest book, Eclipse, on Audible.  I'll make a note of Damascus
Gate and see if NLS has it and who's reading it, or if I need to buy it.  Of
course, right now I'm lost in World War II in Colorado and then, I thin the
next book will be unassociated with history and politics so I can catch my
breath.  There's a book called, The Attack by  Yasmina    Khadra, that I
read from NLS.  It relates to what we've been talking about.  It is the
story of a Palestinian doctor who grew up and was educated in Israel and who
has always seen himself as a loyal Israeli.  It is a beautifully written,
very disturbing book.  You might enjoy reading it.  I always recommend it to
people who are loyal supporters of Israel and who are thoughtful.

Miriam
----- Original Message -----
From: "Barry" <barryem@...>
To: <audible@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 11:26 AM
Subject: Re: [audible] The Lacuna


Of course ethnic cleansing is a bad thing.  There are radical Israelis just
as there are radicals everywhere.  Nobody with any sense or humanity wants
that.

I think the goals for Israel should be to seek a reasonable peace that
includes working toward freedom and equality for everyone, Jews, Arabs and
anyone else living there.  In the meantime I'd like to see Israel try to
significantly improve the conditions of the Palistians living in Israel.
That will make a big difference in getting to peace and besides, it's the
right thing to do.

At the same time excesses are undertandable and can be expected in that kind
of super-heated situation.  Excesses on both sides.  That's human nature.

I remember Golda Meir saying, after one of the wars, that the worse tragedy
wasn't that the Palestinians killed Jews, it was that Jews were forced to
kill Palestinians.  She knew what came of having to kill, and she was right.

By the way, a very interesting novel about Israel and just what we're
talking about, as well as the Christian involvement in all this, is Robert
Stone's "Damascus Gate".  It's a book you won't soon forget.

Interestingly, Audible has 2 versions of this: the 9 hour abridgement
narrated by Frank Muller, and a 19 hour unabridged version narrated by
George Guidall.  I heard Frank Muller's version years ago, thinking it was
unabridged.  I now have the Guidall version as well and plan to listen to it
before long.  It's nice to have a choice between two such good narrators.

I also have "The Good Earth", which I've heard a couple of times beautifully
narrated by George Guidall, and another version narrated by Anthony Heald,
another of my favorite narrators.  Life is good! :)

Barry


Barry


--- On Mon, 11/16/09, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...> wrote:

> From: Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...>
> Subject: Re: [audible] The Lacuna
> To: audible@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Monday, November 16, 2009, 9:53 AM
> I guess we see the solution for
> Israel differently. There was a time when
> Israel was a small battered state at the mercy of hostile
> neighbors. It is
> now a nuclear power with the backing of U.S. military
> power. And I think
> that the history does matter. We grew up in the
> shadow of the holocaust
> believing a story which justified the ethnic cleansing of
> the Palestinians.
> Now, in the light of what has taken place, many of us see
> the story a bit
> differently. But the old story is still there, in the
> minds of so many
> people, informing what they do and what they believe.
> There is a new broup
> called J Street which is a pro Israel group, started by a
> guy who grew up in
> Israel and this group sees the story differently.
> There are other groups as
> well, including some originating in Israel. So it's
> now an issue with a
> rainbow of visions.
>
> Miriam
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Barry" <barryem@...>
> To: <audible@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 11:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [audible] The Lacuna
>
>
> The alternative for Israel is to be wiped off the map.
>
> Yes there are excesses. If I had neighbors who were
> constantly bombarding
> and attacking me I might get excessive, too.
>
> When I was in jr. high school I remember a kid that was a
> lot bigger than me
> who, for some reason, loved to pick on me and try to make
> my life miserable.
> One day, after months of picking on me and beating up on me
> and stealing
> stuff from me, we were in crafts class and he came up
> behind me with an
> electric drill with no bit in the chuck but the prongs of
> the chuck sticking
> out. He stuck that in my back before I saw him there
> and he turned the
> drill on, ripping my shirt to shreds and ripping some flesh
> too. Without
> thinking I picked up a metal chair and hit him with it,
> full force, knocking
> him down. Then, enraged, while he was down, I hit him
> a few more times with
> the chair till some others pulled me away from him.
> He spent a week in the
> hospital. Because there were lots of witnesses I only
> got a reprimand.
>
> The first blow was purely self defense. It was not
> only justified, it was
> long overdue. It ended the situation and no more was
> needed.
>
> The following blows were because I lost my temper.
> They weren't needed.
> They were very excessive. Too bad!
>
> No, I'm not a violent person. But sometimes enough is
> enough. And
> sometimes when you've had enough you get fed up and you
> overreact.
>
> The moral of the story is contained in the fact that that
> kid never came
> near me again.
>
> I wish we lived in a world where a small number of people
> surrounded by
> millions who are constantly trying to kill them, could be
> saints and treat
> them as equals and always be fair to them and not get
> themselves killed in
> the process. But that's not how it works. Jews
> are mistreated by
> Palestinians and they mistreat the Palestinians in
> return. It's not good
> but it's human nature.
>
> At this point the history no longer matters. How they
> got into this
> situation has little to do with anything. They're in
> it and they have to
> deal with it and they do.
>
> Barry
>
>
> --- On Sun, 11/15/09, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...>
> wrote:
>
> > From: Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...>
> > Subject: Re: [audible] The Lacuna
> > To: audible@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 6:54 PM
> > One of the really sad things to me is
> > how many Jews, certainly the Israeli
> > government, have become so obsessed with victimhood
> that
> > they don't realize
> > that they are now projecting the same attitudes and
> > practices onto Muslims
> > that they suffered. And I don't deny the terror of
> > being the object of
> > suicide bombers. This is very painful to me because
> > my background is Jewish
> > and like everyone else of my generation, I grew up
> with the
> > horrors of the
> > holocaust. But I know that torture and murder are
> > torture and murder, no
> > matter who commits them. And every country and ethnic
> > group that does these
> > things, justifies them by history.
> >
> > Miriam
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Barry" <barryem@...>
> > To: <audible@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 6:08 PM
> > Subject: Re: [audible] The Lacuna
> >
> >
> > History often repeats itself because people don't make
> the
> > connections
> > necessary to see that events today have the same
> meaning as
> > past events with
> > only a few changed circumstances.
> >
> > This morning my father, who loves to pass around all
> kinds
> > of chain letters
> > that he finds, sent all of us a post containing a
> speech by
> > a European
> > explaining that the hated Muslims are taking over the
> > neighborhoods of
> > European cities and how they love to kill Christians
> and
> > how they are a
> > terrible blight, and giving statistics to show how
> this
> > could mean the end
> > of western civilization. There was much hatred and
> > vitriol in the speech.
> >
> > My Dad, who all his life has hated racism and, as a
> Jew,
> > has hated
> > anti-semitism, doesn't see that this is the same
> > thing. Arabs are semites
> > but that just never occurred to him. He happily
> > passed the post on to
> > everyone in his mailing list thinking he was doing a
> good
> > thing.
> >
> > Barry
> >
> >
> > --- On Sun, 11/15/09, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > From: Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...>
> > > Subject: Re: [audible] The Lacuna
> > > To: audible@yahoogroups.com
> > > Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 1:22 PM
> > > OK. I thought it was Central
> > > America but I guess you're right -North
> > > America consists of U.S., Canada, and Mexico.
> > > Having just finished it, the
> > > natural progression was to next read Tallgrass
> which I
> > got
> > > from NLS. So
> > > far, a very sweet book. I think your word for it
> was
> > > "sane".Over the years,
> > > I have painlessly learned a lot of history from
> > reading
> > > good novels. The
> > > more I read, the more evident it becomes how
> history
> > > repeats itself and how
> > > we don't seem to learn from past experience.
> There's
> > > a scene in The Lacuna,
> > > government forces attacking the veterans of World
> War
> > I who
> > > have set up camp
> > > in Washington D.C. to demand the pensions
> promised to
> > them
> > > at the end of the
> > > war. I think it was $500 for each veteran. It's
> > > the depression and they're
> > > in this camp with their families. I know I've
> read
> > > about it but reading the
> > > book, I felt like I was right there witnessing
> it.
> > > Another thing that
> > > struck me. People talk about the main stream
> media
> > > being one sided. Well,
> > > this is not new. Many of those newspaper
> articles
> > > quoted in the book are
> > > real articles that Kingsolver researched. Sixty
> years
> > > from now, someone
> > > will write a novel about what is happening today
> (if
> > we've
> > > survived) and it
> > > would be interesting to see what is happening
> now,
> > > reproduced in a
> > > historical novel.
> > >
> > > Miriam
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Barry" <barryem@...>
> > > To: <audible@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 1:42 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [audible] The Lacuna
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks for this review. Maybe I'll get it from
> > > Audible after all. I'll
> > > have to think about it some more.
> > >
> > > By the way, Mexico is part of North America. :)
> > >
> > > Barry
> > >
> > >
> > > --- On Sun, 11/15/09, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > From: Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...>
> > > > Subject: [audible] The Lacuna
> > > > To: "audible groups" <audible@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 10:31 AM
> > > > After all the discussion about
> > > > Kingsolver's narration of this book, I did
> > > > decide to buy it because I really wanted to
> read
> > it
> > > and
> > > > didn't know if , or
> > > > when, another version would become available
> to
> > me
> > > that I
> > > > would like better.
> > > > I also suspected that the sample might
> sound
> > worse
> > > than the
> > > > book itself.
> > > > And that turned out to be true. She really
> did a
> > much
> > > > better job than we
> > > > anticipated. She is especially skilled at
> reading
> > the
> > > > Spanish phrases and
> > > > doing some of the Mexican accents. She also
> > didn't do
> > > > badly at all with a
> > > > southern lady and a Jewish lawyer from New
> York.
> > I
> > > > don't think it's
> > > > necessary to do all these accents, but it
> seems
> > to be
> > > > accepted practice in
> > > > audio books. And, by the way, I also really
> liked
> > the
> > > > book. The story is
> > > > told mostly by journal entries, newspaper
> > articles
> > > and
> > > > letters so I thought
> > > > I'd have difficulty being drawn into it but
> I had
> > no
> > > > trouble at all,
> > > > probably because I was so interested in the
> > subject
> > > > matter. I'd forgotten
> > > > how virulent the anti-communist era was
> after
> > World
> > > War II
> > > > but this book
> > > > certainly reminded me. It also provided a
> lovely
> > > > picture of Mexican life
> > > > and culture that isn't usually made
> available to
> > > North
> > > > Americans and I
> > > > finally learned, without having to read a
> dry
> > history
> > > book,
> > > > about what went
> > > > on between Lenin, Trotsky, and Stalin. The
> main
> > > > character of the book is
> > > > sweet and loveable.
> > > >
> > > > Miriam.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > audible-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > > audible-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> > audible-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
> audible-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>

I did read "The Attack" and I was very impressed with it.  It's an unusual story
and a good one.

I also read "The Exile".

I'm glad to see books like these that take an even handed aproach to the
problems of that area.

Damascus Gate is another one but with a huge twist.  I don't want to say what
that twist is and give it away.

I am a supporter of Israel but I do recognize that they've created new
injustices.  That's sad and it will only get worse.  At the same time, I
understand why.  I just hope the conflits are resolved before both sides become
dehumanized.  And I hope it's not already too late for that.

Barry


--- On Mon, 11/16/09, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...> wrote:

> From: Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...>
> Subject: Re: [audible] The Lacuna
> To: audible@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Monday, November 16, 2009, 11:23 AM
> Have you read the book by Richard
> North Patterson, The Exile?  It is a well
> researched, very exciting novel which also deals with the
> Israeli
> Palestinian conflict.  I read the NLS version but I'm
> sure it's on Audible.
> I read his latest book, Eclipse, on Audible.  I'll
> make a note of Damascus
> Gate and see if NLS has it and who's reading it, or if I
> need to buy it.  Of
> course, right now I'm lost in World War II in Colorado and
> then, I thin the
> next book will be unassociated with history and politics so
> I can catch my
> breath.  There's a book called, The Attack by 
> Yasmina    Khadra, that I
> read from NLS.  It relates to what we've been talking
> about.  It is the
> story of a Palestinian doctor who grew up and was educated
> in Israel and who
> has always seen himself as a loyal Israeli.  It is a
> beautifully written,
> very disturbing book.  You might enjoy reading
> it.  I always recommend it to
> people who are loyal supporters of Israel and who are
> thoughtful.
>
> Miriam
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Barry" <barryem@...>
> To: <audible@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 11:26 AM
> Subject: Re: [audible] The Lacuna
>
>
> Of course ethnic cleansing is a bad thing.  There are
> radical Israelis just
> as there are radicals everywhere.  Nobody with any
> sense or humanity wants
> that.
>
> I think the goals for Israel should be to seek a reasonable
> peace that
> includes working toward freedom and equality for everyone,
> Jews, Arabs and
> anyone else living there.  In the meantime I'd like to
> see Israel try to
> significantly improve the conditions of the Palistians
> living in Israel.
> That will make a big difference in getting to peace and
> besides, it's the
> right thing to do.
>
> At the same time excesses are undertandable and can be
> expected in that kind
> of super-heated situation.  Excesses on both
> sides.  That's human nature.
>
> I remember Golda Meir saying, after one of the wars, that
> the worse tragedy
> wasn't that the Palestinians killed Jews, it was that Jews
> were forced to
> kill Palestinians.  She knew what came of having to
> kill, and she was right.
>
> By the way, a very interesting novel about Israel and just
> what we're
> talking about, as well as the Christian involvement in all
> this, is Robert
> Stone's "Damascus Gate".  It's a book you won't soon
> forget.
>
> Interestingly, Audible has 2 versions of this: the 9 hour
> abridgement
> narrated by Frank Muller, and a 19 hour unabridged version
> narrated by
> George Guidall.  I heard Frank Muller's version years
> ago, thinking it was
> unabridged.  I now have the Guidall version as well
> and plan to listen to it
> before long.  It's nice to have a choice between two
> such good narrators.
>
> I also have "The Good Earth", which I've heard a couple of
> times beautifully
> narrated by George Guidall, and another version narrated by
> Anthony Heald,
> another of my favorite narrators.  Life is good! :)
>
> Barry
>
>
> Barry
>
>
> --- On Mon, 11/16/09, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...>
> wrote:
>
> > From: Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...>
> > Subject: Re: [audible] The Lacuna
> > To: audible@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Monday, November 16, 2009, 9:53 AM
> > I guess we see the solution for
> > Israel differently. There was a time when
> > Israel was a small battered state at the mercy of
> hostile
> > neighbors. It is
> > now a nuclear power with the backing of U.S. military
> > power. And I think
> > that the history does matter. We grew up in the
> > shadow of the holocaust
> > believing a story which justified the ethnic cleansing
> of
> > the Palestinians.
> > Now, in the light of what has taken place, many of us
> see
> > the story a bit
> > differently. But the old story is still there, in the
> > minds of so many
> > people, informing what they do and what they believe.
> > There is a new broup
> > called J Street which is a pro Israel group, started
> by a
> > guy who grew up in
> > Israel and this group sees the story differently.
> > There are other groups as
> > well, including some originating in Israel. So it's
> > now an issue with a
> > rainbow of visions.
> >
> > Miriam
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Barry" <barryem@...>
> > To: <audible@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 11:48 PM
> > Subject: Re: [audible] The Lacuna
> >
> >
> > The alternative for Israel is to be wiped off the
> map.
> >
> > Yes there are excesses. If I had neighbors who were
> > constantly bombarding
> > and attacking me I might get excessive, too.
> >
> > When I was in jr. high school I remember a kid that
> was a
> > lot bigger than me
> > who, for some reason, loved to pick on me and try to
> make
> > my life miserable.
> > One day, after months of picking on me and beating up
> on me
> > and stealing
> > stuff from me, we were in crafts class and he came up
> > behind me with an
> > electric drill with no bit in the chuck but the prongs
> of
> > the chuck sticking
> > out. He stuck that in my back before I saw him there
> > and he turned the
> > drill on, ripping my shirt to shreds and ripping some
> flesh
> > too. Without
> > thinking I picked up a metal chair and hit him with
> it,
> > full force, knocking
> > him down. Then, enraged, while he was down, I hit him
> > a few more times with
> > the chair till some others pulled me away from him.
> > He spent a week in the
> > hospital. Because there were lots of witnesses I only
> > got a reprimand.
> >
> > The first blow was purely self defense. It was not
> > only justified, it was
> > long overdue. It ended the situation and no more was
> > needed.
> >
> > The following blows were because I lost my temper.
> > They weren't needed.
> > They were very excessive. Too bad!
> >
> > No, I'm not a violent person. But sometimes enough is
> > enough. And
> > sometimes when you've had enough you get fed up and
> you
> > overreact.
> >
> > The moral of the story is contained in the fact that
> that
> > kid never came
> > near me again.
> >
> > I wish we lived in a world where a small number of
> people
> > surrounded by
> > millions who are constantly trying to kill them, could
> be
> > saints and treat
> > them as equals and always be fair to them and not get
> > themselves killed in
> > the process. But that's not how it works. Jews
> > are mistreated by
> > Palestinians and they mistreat the Palestinians in
> > return. It's not good
> > but it's human nature.
> >
> > At this point the history no longer matters. How they
> > got into this
> > situation has little to do with anything. They're in
> > it and they have to
> > deal with it and they do.
> >
> > Barry
> >
> >
> > --- On Sun, 11/15/09, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > From: Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...>
> > > Subject: Re: [audible] The Lacuna
> > > To: audible@yahoogroups.com
> > > Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 6:54 PM
> > > One of the really sad things to me is
> > > how many Jews, certainly the Israeli
> > > government, have become so obsessed with
> victimhood
> > that
> > > they don't realize
> > > that they are now projecting the same attitudes
> and
> > > practices onto Muslims
> > > that they suffered. And I don't deny the terror
> of
> > > being the object of
> > > suicide bombers. This is very painful to me
> because
> > > my background is Jewish
> > > and like everyone else of my generation, I grew
> up
> > with the
> > > horrors of the
> > > holocaust. But I know that torture and murder
> are
> > > torture and murder, no
> > > matter who commits them. And every country and
> ethnic
> > > group that does these
> > > things, justifies them by history.
> > >
> > > Miriam
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Barry" <barryem@...>
> > > To: <audible@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 6:08 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [audible] The Lacuna
> > >
> > >
> > > History often repeats itself because people don't
> make
> > the
> > > connections
> > > necessary to see that events today have the same
> > meaning as
> > > past events with
> > > only a few changed circumstances.
> > >
> > > This morning my father, who loves to pass around
> all
> > kinds
> > > of chain letters
> > > that he finds, sent all of us a post containing
> a
> > speech by
> > > a European
> > > explaining that the hated Muslims are taking over
> the
> > > neighborhoods of
> > > European cities and how they love to kill
> Christians
> > and
> > > how they are a
> > > terrible blight, and giving statistics to show
> how
> > this
> > > could mean the end
> > > of western civilization. There was much hatred
> and
> > > vitriol in the speech.
> > >
> > > My Dad, who all his life has hated racism and, as
> a
> > Jew,
> > > has hated
> > > anti-semitism, doesn't see that this is the same
> > > thing. Arabs are semites
> > > but that just never occurred to him. He happily
> > > passed the post on to
> > > everyone in his mailing list thinking he was
> doing a
> > good
> > > thing.
> > >
> > > Barry
> > >
> > >
> > > --- On Sun, 11/15/09, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > From: Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...>
> > > > Subject: Re: [audible] The Lacuna
> > > > To: audible@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 1:22 PM
> > > > OK. I thought it was Central
> > > > America but I guess you're right -North
> > > > America consists of U.S., Canada, and
> Mexico.
> > > > Having just finished it, the
> > > > natural progression was to next read
> Tallgrass
> > which I
> > > got
> > > > from NLS. So
> > > > far, a very sweet book. I think your word
> for it
> > was
> > > > "sane".Over the years,
> > > > I have painlessly learned a lot of history
> from
> > > reading
> > > > good novels. The
> > > > more I read, the more evident it becomes
> how
> > history
> > > > repeats itself and how
> > > > we don't seem to learn from past
> experience.
> > There's
> > > > a scene in The Lacuna,
> > > > government forces attacking the veterans of
> World
> > War
> > > I who
> > > > have set up camp
> > > > in Washington D.C. to demand the pensions
> > promised to
> > > them
> > > > at the end of the
> > > > war. I think it was $500 for each veteran.
> It's
> > > > the depression and they're
> > > > in this camp with their families. I know
> I've
> > read
> > > > about it but reading the
> > > > book, I felt like I was right there
> witnessing
> > it.
> > > > Another thing that
> > > > struck me. People talk about the main
> stream
> > media
> > > > being one sided. Well,
> > > > this is not new. Many of those newspaper
> > articles
> > > > quoted in the book are
> > > > real articles that Kingsolver researched.
> Sixty
> > years
> > > > from now, someone
> > > > will write a novel about what is happening
> today
> > (if
> > > we've
> > > > survived) and it
> > > > would be interesting to see what is
> happening
> > now,
> > > > reproduced in a
> > > > historical novel.
> > > >
> > > > Miriam
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Barry" <barryem@...>
> > > > To: <audible@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 1:42 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [audible] The Lacuna
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for this review. Maybe I'll get it
> from
> > > > Audible after all. I'll
> > > > have to think about it some more.
> > > >
> > > > By the way, Mexico is part of North America.
> :)
> > > >
> > > > Barry
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- On Sun, 11/15/09, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > From: Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...>
> > > > > Subject: [audible] The Lacuna
> > > > > To: "audible groups" <audible@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 10:31
> AM
> > > > > After all the discussion about
> > > > > Kingsolver's narration of this book, I
> did
> > > > > decide to buy it because I really
> wanted to
> > read
> > > it
> > > > and
> > > > > didn't know if , or
> > > > > when, another version would become
> available
> > to
> > > me
> > > > that I
> > > > > would like better.
> > > > > I also suspected that the sample might
> > sound
> > > worse
> > > > than the
> > > > > book itself.
> > > > > And that turned out to be true. She
> really
> > did a
> > > much
> > > > > better job than we
> > > > > anticipated. She is especially skilled
> at
> > reading
> > > the
> > > > > Spanish phrases and
> > > > > doing some of the Mexican accents. She
> also
> > > didn't do
> > > > > badly at all with a
> > > > > southern lady and a Jewish lawyer from
> New
> > York.
> > > I
> > > > > don't think it's
> > > > > necessary to do all these accents, but
> it
> > seems
> > > to be
> > > > > accepted practice in
> > > > > audio books. And, by the way, I also
> really
> > liked
> > > the
> > > > > book. The story is
> > > > > told mostly by journal entries,
> newspaper
> > > articles
> > > > and
> > > > > letters so I thought
> > > > > I'd have difficulty being drawn into it
> but
> > I had
> > > no
> > > > > trouble at all,
> > > > > probably because I was so interested in
> the
> > > subject
> > > > > matter. I'd forgotten
> > > > > how virulent the anti-communist era
> was
> > after
> > > World
> > > > War II
> > > > > but this book
> > > > > certainly reminded me. It also provided
> a
> > lovely
> > > > > picture of Mexican life
> > > > > and culture that isn't usually made
> > available to
> > > > North
> > > > > Americans and I
> > > > > finally learned, without having to read
> a
> > dry
> > > history
> > > > book,
> > > > > about what went
> > > > > on between Lenin, Trotsky, and Stalin.
> The
> > main
> > > > > character of the book is
> > > > > sweet and loveable.
> > > > >
> > > > > Miriam.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > audible-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > audible-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > > audible-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> > audible-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>     audible-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>

Just looked for Damascus Gate on the NLS site and it isn't there so I'll add
it to my Audible list.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Barry" <barryem@...>
To: <audible@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 2:38 PM
Subject: Re: [audible] The Lacuna


I did read "The Attack" and I was very impressed with it.  It's an unusual
story and a good one.

I also read "The Exile".

I'm glad to see books like these that take an even handed aproach to the
problems of that area.

Damascus Gate is another one but with a huge twist.  I don't want to say
what that twist is and give it away.

I am a supporter of Israel but I do recognize that they've created new
injustices.  That's sad and it will only get worse.  At the same time, I
understand why.  I just hope the conflits are resolved before both sides
become dehumanized.  And I hope it's not already too late for that.

Barry


--- On Mon, 11/16/09, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...> wrote:

> From: Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...>
> Subject: Re: [audible] The Lacuna
> To: audible@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Monday, November 16, 2009, 11:23 AM
> Have you read the book by Richard
> North Patterson, The Exile? It is a well
> researched, very exciting novel which also deals with the
> Israeli
> Palestinian conflict. I read the NLS version but I'm
> sure it's on Audible.
> I read his latest book, Eclipse, on Audible. I'll
> make a note of Damascus
> Gate and see if NLS has it and who's reading it, or if I
> need to buy it. Of
> course, right now I'm lost in World War II in Colorado and
> then, I thin the
> next book will be unassociated with history and politics so
> I can catch my
> breath. There's a book called, The Attack by
> Yasmina Khadra, that I
> read from NLS. It relates to what we've been talking
> about. It is the
> story of a Palestinian doctor who grew up and was educated
> in Israel and who
> has always seen himself as a loyal Israeli. It is a
> beautifully written,
> very disturbing book. You might enjoy reading
> it. I always recommend it to
> people who are loyal supporters of Israel and who are
> thoughtful.
>
> Miriam
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Barry" <barryem@...>
> To: <audible@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 11:26 AM
> Subject: Re: [audible] The Lacuna
>
>
> Of course ethnic cleansing is a bad thing. There are
> radical Israelis just
> as there are radicals everywhere. Nobody with any
> sense or humanity wants
> that.
>
> I think the goals for Israel should be to seek a reasonable
> peace that
> includes working toward freedom and equality for everyone,
> Jews, Arabs and
> anyone else living there. In the meantime I'd like to
> see Israel try to
> significantly improve the conditions of the Palistians
> living in Israel.
> That will make a big difference in getting to peace and
> besides, it's the
> right thing to do.
>
> At the same time excesses are undertandable and can be
> expected in that kind
> of super-heated situation. Excesses on both
> sides. That's human nature.
>
> I remember Golda Meir saying, after one of the wars, that
> the worse tragedy
> wasn't that the Palestinians killed Jews, it was that Jews
> were forced to
> kill Palestinians. She knew what came of having to
> kill, and she was right.
>
> By the way, a very interesting novel about Israel and just
> what we're
> talking about, as well as the Christian involvement in all
> this, is Robert
> Stone's "Damascus Gate". It's a book you won't soon
> forget.
>
> Interestingly, Audible has 2 versions of this: the 9 hour
> abridgement
> narrated by Frank Muller, and a 19 hour unabridged version
> narrated by
> George Guidall. I heard Frank Muller's version years
> ago, thinking it was
> unabridged. I now have the Guidall version as well
> and plan to listen to it
> before long. It's nice to have a choice between two
> such good narrators.
>
> I also have "The Good Earth", which I've heard a couple of
> times beautifully
> narrated by George Guidall, and another version narrated by
> Anthony Heald,
> another of my favorite narrators. Life is good! :)
>
> Barry
>
>
> Barry
>
>
> --- On Mon, 11/16/09, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...>
> wrote:
>
> > From: Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...>
> > Subject: Re: [audible] The Lacuna
> > To: audible@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Monday, November 16, 2009, 9:53 AM
> > I guess we see the solution for
> > Israel differently. There was a time when
> > Israel was a small battered state at the mercy of
> hostile
> > neighbors. It is
> > now a nuclear power with the backing of U.S. military
> > power. And I think
> > that the history does matter. We grew up in the
> > shadow of the holocaust
> > believing a story which justified the ethnic cleansing
> of
> > the Palestinians.
> > Now, in the light of what has taken place, many of us
> see
> > the story a bit
> > differently. But the old story is still there, in the
> > minds of so many
> > people, informing what they do and what they believe.
> > There is a new broup
> > called J Street which is a pro Israel group, started
> by a
> > guy who grew up in
> > Israel and this group sees the story differently.
> > There are other groups as
> > well, including some originating in Israel. So it's
> > now an issue with a
> > rainbow of visions.
> >
> > Miriam
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Barry" <barryem@...>
> > To: <audible@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 11:48 PM
> > Subject: Re: [audible] The Lacuna
> >
> >
> > The alternative for Israel is to be wiped off the
> map.
> >
> > Yes there are excesses. If I had neighbors who were
> > constantly bombarding
> > and attacking me I might get excessive, too.
> >
> > When I was in jr. high school I remember a kid that
> was a
> > lot bigger than me
> > who, for some reason, loved to pick on me and try to
> make
> > my life miserable.
> > One day, after months of picking on me and beating up
> on me
> > and stealing
> > stuff from me, we were in crafts class and he came up
> > behind me with an
> > electric drill with no bit in the chuck but the prongs
> of
> > the chuck sticking
> > out. He stuck that in my back before I saw him there
> > and he turned the
> > drill on, ripping my shirt to shreds and ripping some
> flesh
> > too. Without
> > thinking I picked up a metal chair and hit him with
> it,
> > full force, knocking
> > him down. Then, enraged, while he was down, I hit him
> > a few more times with
> > the chair till some others pulled me away from him.
> > He spent a week in the
> > hospital. Because there were lots of witnesses I only
> > got a reprimand.
> >
> > The first blow was purely self defense. It was not
> > only justified, it was
> > long overdue. It ended the situation and no more was
> > needed.
> >
> > The following blows were because I lost my temper.
> > They weren't needed.
> > They were very excessive. Too bad!
> >
> > No, I'm not a violent person. But sometimes enough is
> > enough. And
> > sometimes when you've had enough you get fed up and
> you
> > overreact.
> >
> > The moral of the story is contained in the fact that
> that
> > kid never came
> > near me again.
> >
> > I wish we lived in a world where a small number of
> people
> > surrounded by
> > millions who are constantly trying to kill them, could
> be
> > saints and treat
> > them as equals and always be fair to them and not get
> > themselves killed in
> > the process. But that's not how it works. Jews
> > are mistreated by
> > Palestinians and they mistreat the Palestinians in
> > return. It's not good
> > but it's human nature.
> >
> > At this point the history no longer matters. How they
> > got into this
> > situation has little to do with anything. They're in
> > it and they have to
> > deal with it and they do.
> >
> > Barry
> >
> >
> > --- On Sun, 11/15/09, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > From: Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...>
> > > Subject: Re: [audible] The Lacuna
> > > To: audible@yahoogroups.com
> > > Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 6:54 PM
> > > One of the really sad things to me is
> > > how many Jews, certainly the Israeli
> > > government, have become so obsessed with
> victimhood
> > that
> > > they don't realize
> > > that they are now projecting the same attitudes
> and
> > > practices onto Muslims
> > > that they suffered. And I don't deny the terror
> of
> > > being the object of
> > > suicide bombers. This is very painful to me
> because
> > > my background is Jewish
> > > and like everyone else of my generation, I grew
> up
> > with the
> > > horrors of the
> > > holocaust. But I know that torture and murder
> are
> > > torture and murder, no
> > > matter who commits them. And every country and
> ethnic
> > > group that does these
> > > things, justifies them by history.
> > >
> > > Miriam
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Barry" <barryem@...>
> > > To: <audible@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 6:08 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [audible] The Lacuna
> > >
> > >
> > > History often repeats itself because people don't
> make
> > the
> > > connections
> > > necessary to see that events today have the same
> > meaning as
> > > past events with
> > > only a few changed circumstances.
> > >
> > > This morning my father, who loves to pass around
> all
> > kinds
> > > of chain letters
> > > that he finds, sent all of us a post containing
> a
> > speech by
> > > a European
> > > explaining that the hated Muslims are taking over
> the
> > > neighborhoods of
> > > European cities and how they love to kill
> Christians
> > and
> > > how they are a
> > > terrible blight, and giving statistics to show
> how
> > this
> > > could mean the end
> > > of western civilization. There was much hatred
> and
> > > vitriol in the speech.
> > >
> > > My Dad, who all his life has hated racism and, as
> a
> > Jew,
> > > has hated
> > > anti-semitism, doesn't see that this is the same
> > > thing. Arabs are semites
> > > but that just never occurred to him. He happily
> > > passed the post on to
> > > everyone in his mailing list thinking he was
> doing a
> > good
> > > thing.
> > >
> > > Barry
> > >
> > >
> > > --- On Sun, 11/15/09, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > From: Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...>
> > > > Subject: Re: [audible] The Lacuna
> > > > To: audible@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 1:22 PM
> > > > OK. I thought it was Central
> > > > America but I guess you're right -North
> > > > America consists of U.S., Canada, and
> Mexico.
> > > > Having just finished it, the
> > > > natural progression was to next read
> Tallgrass
> > which I
> > > got
> > > > from NLS. So
> > > > far, a very sweet book. I think your word
> for it
> > was
> > > > "sane".Over the years,
> > > > I have painlessly learned a lot of history
> from
> > > reading
> > > > good novels. The
> > > > more I read, the more evident it becomes
> how
> > history
> > > > repeats itself and how
> > > > we don't seem to learn from past
> experience.
> > There's
> > > > a scene in The Lacuna,
> > > > government forces attacking the veterans of
> World
> > War
> > > I who
> > > > have set up camp
> > > > in Washington D.C. to demand the pensions
> > promised to
> > > them
> > > > at the end of the
> > > > war. I think it was $500 for each veteran.
> It's
> > > > the depression and they're
> > > > in this camp with their families. I know
> I've
> > read
> > > > about it but reading the
> > > > book, I felt like I was right there
> witnessing
> > it.
> > > > Another thing that
> > > > struck me. People talk about the main
> stream
> > media
> > > > being one sided. Well,
> > > > this is not new. Many of those newspaper
> > articles
> > > > quoted in the book are
> > > > real articles that Kingsolver researched.
> Sixty
> > years
> > > > from now, someone
> > > > will write a novel about what is happening
> today
> > (if
> > > we've
> > > > survived) and it
> > > > would be interesting to see what is
> happening
> > now,
> > > > reproduced in a
> > > > historical novel.
> > > >
> > > > Miriam
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Barry" <barryem@...>
> > > > To: <audible@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 1:42 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [audible] The Lacuna
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for this review. Maybe I'll get it
> from
> > > > Audible after all. I'll
> > > > have to think about it some more.
> > > >
> > > > By the way, Mexico is part of North America.
> :)
> > > >
> > > > Barry
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- On Sun, 11/15/09, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > From: Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...>
> > > > > Subject: [audible] The Lacuna
> > > > > To: "audible groups" <audible@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 10:31
> AM
> > > > > After all the discussion about
> > > > > Kingsolver's narration of this book, I
> did
> > > > > decide to buy it because I really
> wanted to
> > read
> > > it
> > > > and
> > > > > didn't know if , or
> > > > > when, another version would become
> available
> > to
> > > me
> > > > that I
> > > > > would like better.
> > > > > I also suspected that the sample might
> > sound
> > > worse
> > > > than the
> > > > > book itself.
> > > > > And that turned out to be true. She
> really
> > did a
> > > much
> > > > > better job than we
> > > > > anticipated. She is especially skilled
> at
> > reading
> > > the
> > > > > Spanish phrases and
> > > > > doing some of the Mexican accents. She
> also
> > > didn't do
> > > > > badly at all with a
> > > > > southern lady and a Jewish lawyer from
> New
> > York.
> > > I
> > > > > don't think it's
> > > > > necessary to do all these accents, but
> it
> > seems
> > > to be
> > > > > accepted practice in
> > > > > audio books. And, by the way, I also
> really
> > liked
> > > the
> > > > > book. The story is
> > > > > told mostly by journal entries,
> newspaper
> > > articles
> > > > and
> > > > > letters so I thought
> > > > > I'd have difficulty being drawn into it
> but
> > I had
> > > no
> > > > > trouble at all,
> > > > > probably because I was so interested in
> the
> > > subject
> > > > > matter. I'd forgotten
> > > > > how virulent the anti-communist era
> was
> > after
> > > World
> > > > War II
> > > > > but this book
> > > > > certainly reminded me. It also provided
> a
> > lovely
> > > > > picture of Mexican life
> > > > > and culture that isn't usually made
> > available to
> > > > North
> > > > > Americans and I
> > > > > finally learned, without having to read
> a
> > dry
> > > history
> > > > book,
> > > > > about what went
> > > > > on between Lenin, Trotsky, and Stalin.
> The
> > main
> > > > > character of the book is
> > > > > sweet and loveable.
> > > > >
> > > > > Miriam.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > audible-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > audible-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > > audible-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> > audible-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
> audible-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>

So, I'm happily using the Sansa Clip+ for Audible books, and I decide to try it
with Net Library.  I download "The Mists of Avalon" and listen to the first book
with no problem.  When I download the second book (it's a trilogy), I cannot
listen to it at all.  When I try to listen, the screen goes blank and the player
crashes completely, and the only way to recover is to do a reset.

Anybody else had seen this before?  Anybody out there had any experiences (good
or bad) with the Clip+ and Net Library?

Thanks,

-barry

I've never used NetLibrary so I won't be much help on this.  You might go to the
Sansa forum at
http://forums.sandisk.com/sansa/
and ask there.

Of course there's also their support line and NetLibrary's support.

Barry


--- On Thu, 11/19/09, margoba <bfm@...> wrote:

> From: margoba <bfm@...>
> Subject: [audible] Sansa Clip+ and Net Library
> To: audible@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 11:51 PM
> So, I'm happily using the Sansa Clip+
> for Audible books, and I decide to try it with Net
> Library.  I download "The Mists of Avalon" and listen
> to the first book with no problem.  When I download the
> second book (it's a trilogy), I cannot listen to it at
> all.  When I try to listen, the screen goes blank and
> the player crashes completely, and the only way to recover
> is to do a reset.
>
> Anybody else had seen this before?  Anybody out there
> had any experiences (good or bad) with the Clip+ and Net
> Library?
>
> Thanks,
>
> -barry
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>     audible-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>

Thanks, I'll give those sites a try.  I had just thought to try here first to
see if anybody had the direct experience with the problem.

I also have another Audible question.  When I download several books, each of
several parts, I often find that the books do not show up in alphabetical order
on the Clip+.  Have you seen that behavior?

Thanks,

-barry

--- In audible@yahoogroups.com, Barry <barryem@...> wrote:
>
> I've never used NetLibrary so I won't be much help on this.  You might go to
the Sansa forum at
> http://forums.sandisk.com/sansa/
> and ask there.
>
> Of course there's also their support line and NetLibrary's support.
>
> Barry
>
>
> --- On Thu, 11/19/09, margoba <bfm@...> wrote:
>
> > From: margoba <bfm@...>
> > Subject: [audible] Sansa Clip+ and Net Library
> > To: audible@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 11:51 PM
> > So, I'm happily using the Sansa Clip+
> > for Audible books, and I decide to try it with Net
> > Library.  I download "The Mists of Avalon" and listen
> > to the first book with no problem.  When I download the
> > second book (it's a trilogy), I cannot listen to it at
> > all.  When I try to listen, the screen goes blank and
> > the player crashes completely, and the only way to recover
> > is to do a reset.
> >
> > Anybody else had seen this before?  Anybody out there
> > had any experiences (good or bad) with the Clip+ and Net
> > Library?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > -barry
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >     audible-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
>

I don't actually know.  I don't recall seeing them out of order in the Clip but
that's not something I would be likely to pay attention to.  I would go to the
file I want and play it and then go to the next file manually.  I got used to
doing this with Creative players that let you set them to play a single file and
stop.  I always keep them set that way.

I do remember a few times when the Clip and Clip+ and the Fuze went to the next
file by itself because I was doing something with my hands and didn't do it
manually.  I don't recall it ever going to the wrong next file.

On the other hand I've often seen files sort out of order with the first one
following what should be the next one in Audible Manager.  I assume they're
sorting on metadata and that metadata isn't quite right.  If the player sorts
the same way, which it probably does, that could cause them to sort out of
order.  If that's the case only Audible could fix it.  My guess is that if you
called them they would fix it if that's the problem.

Barry


--- On Fri, 11/20/09, margoba <bfm@...> wrote:

> From: margoba <bfm@...>
> Subject: [audible] Re: Sansa Clip+ and Net Library
> To: audible@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Friday, November 20, 2009, 11:54 AM
> Thanks, I'll give those sites a
> try.  I had just thought to try here first to see if
> anybody had the direct experience with the problem.
>
> I also have another Audible question.  When I download
> several books, each of several parts, I often find that the
> books do not show up in alphabetical order on the
> Clip+.  Have you seen that behavior?
>
> Thanks,
>
> -barry
>
> --- In audible@yahoogroups.com,
> Barry <barryem@...> wrote:
> >
> > I've never used NetLibrary so I won't be much help on
> this.  You might go to the Sansa forum at
> > http://forums.sandisk.com/sansa/
> > and ask there.
> >
> > Of course there's also their support line and
> NetLibrary's support.
> >
> > Barry
> >
> >
> > --- On Thu, 11/19/09, margoba <bfm@...> wrote:
> >
> > > From: margoba <bfm@...>
> > > Subject: [audible] Sansa Clip+ and Net Library
> > > To: audible@yahoogroups.com
> > > Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 11:51 PM
> > > So, I'm happily using the Sansa Clip+
> > > for Audible books, and I decide to try it with
> Net
> > > Library.  I download "The Mists of Avalon" and
> listen
> > > to the first book with no problem.  When I
> download the
> > > second book (it's a trilogy), I cannot listen to
> it at
> > > all.  When I try to listen, the screen goes
> blank and
> > > the player crashes completely, and the only way
> to recover
> > > is to do a reset.
> > >
> > > Anybody else had seen this before?  Anybody out
> there
> > > had any experiences (good or bad) with the Clip+
> and Net
> > > Library?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > -barry
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >     audible-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>     audible-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>

I rename folders to make them alphabetize (like 01 Komarr 02 Komarr for parts 1
and 2.)

ALison

Alison Hendon
Youth Selection Team Leader
Brooklyn Public Library
a.hendon@...


> -----Original Message-----
> From: audible@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:audible@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Barry
> Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 2:03 PM
> To: audible@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [audible] Re: Sansa Clip+ and Net Library
>
> I don't actually know.  I don't recall seeing them out of
> order in the Clip but that's not something I would be likely
> to pay attention to.  I would go to the file I want and play
> it and then go to the next file manually.  I got used to
> doing this with Creative players that let you set them to
> play a single file and stop.  I always keep them set that way.
>
> I do remember a few times when the Clip and Clip+ and the
> Fuze went to the next file by itself because I was doing
> something with my hands and didn't do it manually.  I don't
> recall it ever going to the wrong next file.
>
> On the other hand I've often seen files sort out of order
> with the first one following what should be the next one in
> Audible Manager.  I assume they're sorting on metadata and
> that metadata isn't quite right.  If the player sorts the
> same way, which it probably does, that could cause them to
> sort out of order.  If that's the case only Audible could fix
> it.  My guess is that if you called them they would fix it if
> that's the problem.
>
> Barry
>
>
> --- On Fri, 11/20/09, margoba <bfm@...> wrote:
>
> > From: margoba <bfm@...>
> > Subject: [audible] Re: Sansa Clip+ and Net Library
> > To: audible@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Friday, November 20, 2009, 11:54 AM Thanks, I'll give those
> > sites a try.  I had just thought to try here first to see
> if anybody
> > had the direct experience with the problem.
> >
> > I also have another Audible question.  When I download
> several books,
> > each of several parts, I often find that the books do not
> show up in
> > alphabetical order on the
> > Clip+.  Have you seen that behavior?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > -barry
> >
> > --- In audible@yahoogroups.com,
> > Barry <barryem@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > I've never used NetLibrary so I won't be much help on
> > this.  You might go to the Sansa forum at
> > > http://forums.sandisk.com/sansa/
> > > and ask there.
> > >
> > > Of course there's also their support line and
> > NetLibrary's support.
> > >
> > > Barry
> > >
> > >
> > > --- On Thu, 11/19/09, margoba <bfm@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > > From: margoba <bfm@...>
> > > > Subject: [audible] Sansa Clip+ and Net Library
> > > > To: audible@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 11:51 PM So, I'm
> happily using
> > > > the Sansa Clip+ for Audible books, and I decide to try it with
> > Net
> > > > Library.  I download "The Mists of Avalon" and
> > listen
> > > > to the first book with no problem.  When I
> > download the
> > > > second book (it's a trilogy), I cannot listen to
> > it at
> > > > all.  When I try to listen, the screen goes
> > blank and
> > > > the player crashes completely, and the only way
> > to recover
> > > > is to do a reset.
> > > >
> > > > Anybody else had seen this before?  Anybody out
> > there
> > > > had any experiences (good or bad) with the Clip+
> > and Net
> > > > Library?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > -barry
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >     audible-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >     audible-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

--- On Fri, 11/20/09, Hendon, Alison <a.hendon@...> wrote:

> From: Hendon, Alison <a.hendon@...>
> Subject: RE: [audible] Re: Sansa Clip+ and Net Library
> To: audible@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Friday, November 20, 2009, 2:35 PM
> I rename folders to make them
> alphabetize (like 01 Komarr 02 Komarr for parts 1 and 2.)
>


I flip the order: Komarr 01, Komarr 02, so they're alphabetically grouped ,and I
don't have to worry about 01 Barrayar 01 Komarr 02 Barrayar 02 Komarr sorting.

(I *love* Lois Bujold!)

-becca

Well I name them 01 Komarr 02 Komarr 03 Civil Campaign 04 Civil Campaign
etc. (can you guess what I've been re-listening to right now?
Diplomatic Immunity is up next.)

Alison

Alison Hendon
Youth Selection Team Leader
Brooklyn Public Library
a.hendon@...

Perfect solution for me.  I never knew you could bypass the Media Center - and I
always hated it.  I just downloaded the file directly and it appears to be
working fine.

If only I could figure out how to delete the old Media Center created files. 
They seem to be hidden somewhere on the device.  :-(

Thanks,

-barry

PS:  It is annoying to have to switch back and forth between USB modes (MTP vs.
MSC).  I wish Audible would learn to use MTP mode.

-b

--- In audible@yahoogroups.com, Wanda <wawasteele@...> wrote:
>
> Another option is to not use NetLibrary's Media Center.  In NetLibary go to
> "Edit My Accout" and uncheck "Use NetLibrary Media Center ".  The book will
> then download as one file, not in separate parts.  This is the way I prefer
> to do it.  You can then just use your browser to find the books you want and
> not the Media Center.
>
> Wanda
> Pictures of some of my quilts: http://community.webshots.com/user/wjpetersen
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 11:44 AM, Becca <becca_price@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > --- On Fri, 11/20/09, Hendon, Alison <a.hendon@...>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > From: Hendon, Alison <a.hendon@...>
> > > Subject: RE: [audible] Re: Sansa Clip+ and Net Library
> > > To: audible@yahoogroups.com
> > > Date: Friday, November 20, 2009, 2:35 PM
> > > I rename folders to make them
> > > alphabetize (like 01 Komarr 02 Komarr for parts 1 and 2.)
> > >
> >
> >
> > I flip the order: Komarr 01, Komarr 02, so they're alphabetically grouped
> > ,and I don't have to worry about 01 Barrayar 01 Komarr 02 Barrayar 02 Komarr
> > sorting.
> >
> > (I *love* Lois Bujold!)
> >
> > -becca
> >
> >
> >
>

The Lost Symbol by Dan Brown

Category:  Suspense

Synopsis:
Peter Solomon, friend and mentor of professor Robert Langdon, from The
Da Vinci Code, invites Langdon to speak at the U.S. Capitol.
When Solomon is kidnapped, Langdon races to save him by uncovering the
ancient secrets within Washington, D.C.


Comments:
The Lost Symbol turns out to be a disappointing read. It's blatantly
commercial and depends far too heavily on superstition and the
supernatural. If you're willing to accept the many dubious assumptions
put forth in this novel, you might get hooked and remain intrigued to
the end.

Rating:  2 out of 5

Add your comment at:
http://www.GlobalCyberCity.com/viewbook.php?id=1030

Jeff
Twitter.com/audiobookfan
Facebook.com/audiobookfan
MySpace.com/audiobookfan

On Nov 25, 2009, at 10:44 PM, Jeff is HookedOnThe.Net wrote:

> Comments:
> The Lost Symbol turns out to be a disappointing read. It's blatantly
> commercial and depends far too heavily on superstition and the
> supernatural. If you're willing to accept the many dubious assumptions
> put forth in this novel, you might get hooked and remain intrigued to
> the end.

Color me surprised...


Kirk

Author of: Take Control of Users & Accounts in Snow Leopard
http://www.mcelhearn.com/tco.html

As I wrote on another list where Jeff's review appears, I had fund reading
the book and wasn't sorry at all that I'd purchased it.  I could tell there
was some real hystory and also that there was a good deal of imagination.
Part of the time, I wasn't sure what was real and what wasn't.  But that
never detracted from the enjoyment of reading the book.

Miriam
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kirk McElhearn" <kirkmc@...>
To: <audible@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 4:49 PM
Subject: Re: [audible] Review: The Lost Symbol by Dan Brown



On Nov 25, 2009, at 10:44 PM, Jeff is HookedOnThe.Net wrote:

> Comments:
> The Lost Symbol turns out to be a disappointing read. It's blatantly
> commercial and depends far too heavily on superstition and the
> supernatural. If you're willing to accept the many dubious assumptions
> put forth in this novel, you might get hooked and remain intrigued to
> the end.

Color me surprised...


Kirk

Author of: Take Control of Users & Accounts in Snow Leopard
http://www.mcelhearn.com/tco.html

AnythingButIpod, an MP3 player review site that reviews all the better players
(but not the silly ones) has done a review of Audible.com.  There's a link to it
below.

I think they got a few points wrong but overall I think it's a good review.  I
made some comments in their forum about what I think are some of their missed
points.

http://tinyurl.com/yk5puya
or
http://www.anythingbutipod.com/archives/2009/11/audible-review.php

Barry

I read it and it was interesting although, I must admit, I didn't understand
all of it.  But there's one guy who wrote a comment that he's "liberated"
only a few Audible books and the narrators are poor.  I must say, he doesn't
have much of a sample from which to make such a judgment.  Also, the author
of the article was very negative about Audible customer service while I've
found them to be quite nice and, often, helpful.

Miriam
----- Original Message -----
From: "Barry M" <barryem@...>
To: <audible@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 12:18 AM
Subject: [audible] Audible review in anythingbutipod.com


AnythingButIpod, an MP3 player review site that reviews all the better
players (but not the silly ones) has done a review of Audible.com.  There's
a link to it below.

I think they got a few points wrong but overall I think it's a good review.
I made some comments in their forum about what I think are some of their
missed points.

http://tinyurl.com/yk5puya
or
http://www.anythingbutipod.com/archives/2009/11/audible-review.php

Barry

The point he missed is that most books on Audible are the consumer releases
by, for instance, Books on Tape or Brilliance.  Audible only actively
records a few books itself (the Grabenstein books for instance or some sci
fi like The Earth Abides).  I personally like the narrators they choose for
their own recordings, but that is a personal issue.

He complains about Marsters and the Dresden files books, but they were
recorded by Buzzy Multimedia Publishing according to Amazon.  That's like
blaming the library for a poorly written book.  He had some valid issues
with the pricing, but as far as the gripes about narrators is concerned, he
is off track.

Sharol

-----Original Message-----
From: audible@yahoogroups.com [mailto:audible@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Miriam Vieni
Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 10:58 AM
To: audible@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [audible] Audible review in anythingbutipod.com

I read it and it was interesting although, I must admit, I didn't understand

all of it.  But there's one guy who wrote a comment that he's "liberated"
only a few Audible books and the narrators are poor.  I must say, he doesn't

have much of a sample from which to make such a judgment.  Also, the author
of the article was very negative about Audible customer service while I've
found them to be quite nice and, often, helpful.

Miriam

In my comment in the forum I mentioned that I'd found their customer service to
be excellent and that in this forum we get a lot of comments to that effect as
well.  His answer was that his experience with their customer service has been
so bad so many times that he doesn't bother to call them anymore.  I was
surprised.

Barry


--- On Thu, 11/26/09, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...> wrote:

> From: Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@...>
> Subject: Re: [audible] Audible review in anythingbutipod.com
> To: audible@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thursday, November 26, 2009, 10:58 AM
> I read it and it was interesting
> although, I must admit, I didn't understand
> all of it.  But there's one guy who wrote a comment
> that he's "liberated"
> only a few Audible books and the narrators are poor. 
> I must say, he doesn't
> have much of a sample from which to make such a
> judgment.  Also, the author
> of the article was very negative about Audible customer
> service while I've
> found them to be quite nice and, often, helpful.
>
> Miriam
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Barry M" <barryem@...>
> To: <audible@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 12:18 AM
> Subject: [audible] Audible review in anythingbutipod.com
>
>
> AnythingButIpod, an MP3 player review site that reviews all
> the better
> players (but not the silly ones) has done a review of
> Audible.com.  There's
> a link to it below.
>
> I think they got a few points wrong but overall I think
> it's a good review.
> I made some comments in their forum about what I think are
> some of their
> missed points.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/yk5puya
> or
> http://www.anythingbutipod.com/archives/2009/11/audible-review.php
>
> Barry
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>     audible-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>