--- In balkanika@yahoogroups.com, "Abdullah Konushevci"
<akonushevci@...> wrote:
>
> --- In balkanika@yahoogroups.com, "alexandru_mg3"
> <alexandru_mg3@> wrote:
> >  Abdullah, if 'everyone could judge' that the word WAS stressed
in
> > second syllable. ...I well hope that that persons can also
explain
> > why /je/ in vjehërr: even you, I hope, isn't it?
> >
> >  Marius
> >
> > P.S. :  On my side, I know that ONLY e/accented > je
> ************
> Why don't you take into consideration the initial accent and its
> impact in PAlb/Illyrian, known as well as stress mechanical
> regulation: Gr Durrákhion, but Ill Dúrrakhion > Alb Durrës, but
> Italian Durázzo, Sl Drac^ etc., an intermediary stage of accent in
> penultima.
> In this case we are talking about originally accent of the
> root/stem, not of its later treatment. So, in words with initial
> stressed vowel after *sw- we have Alb /d/, otherwise /v/.
>
> Konushevci
>

Abdullah, when e > je happened the accent was on the first syllable
in vjehërr...OK? I hope that you will agree at least with this
evidence

Now remains to quess yourself how old this e > je is if you have:
       1. Dacian Diegis,
       2. Albanian q based on an older *ke/accented etc...,
       3. Romanian fierbe < Latin fervere...etc...

So you need to demonstrate that <<e/accented > je>> (that 'belong to
Dacian times') is "a later treatement" in relation with <<s-/w,non-
accented-syll. > zero >>

I don't want to say that it couldn't be true, I want to say that you
need to demonstrate this.

Because without demonstration, any supposition means nothing....

Next you need to demonstrate the reason of such a shift of accent in
pre-historic times....

Marius

P.S. As an example: Piotr proposed a metathesis swek^uro > wesk^uro
to avoid to go 'on such a difficult path' =>
To be honest with you : 'I'm more with you that with him here' but I
cannot demonstrate either the above points

The only (indirect) argument that I could find is that s/w- > zero
happened also in Frigian (so teh transformation could preceed the
split of 'Balkanic-IE-Peoples') but this is only an indirect argument
and we really need a direct one here...

--- In balkanika@yahoogroups.com, "alexandru_mg3"
<alexandru_mg3@...> wrote:
>  Abdullah, if 'everyone could judge' that the word WAS stressed in
> second syllable. ...I well hope that that persons can also explain
> why /je/ in vjehërr: even you, I hope, isn't it?
>
>  Marius
>
> P.S. :  On my side, I know that ONLY e/accented > je
************
Why don't you take into consideration the initial accent and its
impact in PAlb/Illyrian, known as well as stress mechanical
regulation: Gr Durrákhion, but Ill Dúrrakhion > Alb Durrës, but
Italian Durázzo, Sl Drac^ etc., an intermediary stage of accent in
penultima.
In this case we are talking about originally accent of the
root/stem, not of its later treatment. So, in words with initial
stressed vowel after *sw- we have Alb /d/, otherwise /v/.

Konushevci

--- In balkanika@yahoogroups.com, "Abdullah Konushevci"
<akonushevci@...> wrote:
>
> --- In balkanika@yahoogroups.com, "alexandru_mg3"
> <alexandru_mg3@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In balkanika@yahoogroups.com, "Abdullah Konushevci"
> > <akonushevci@> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In balkanika@yahoogroups.com, "Alvin Ekmekciu" <Ekmekciu@>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > PIE *swergh- 'suffer' > Alb. vuaj 'id.'
> > > >
> > > > Could this be right ?
> > > >
> > > > Alvin
> > > ************
> > > Beekes' rule: *sw- > d- before stress, v- elsewhere (?)
> > > dirsë `seat' < *swidro-tia: (?), Gr. hidros, OHG sweiz;
> > > diell `sun' < *swel- (?), Skr. Svarati
> > > So, we may add:
> > > *sworgh-eyo, causative of *swergh- `to worry, be sick' that
> yields
> > > Alb dargj- and due to i-Umlaut, caused by ending –eyo > dergj
> > > *swep- > Alb djep `cradle' (my etymology), but sup-no > gjumë
> > > But, after stess:
> > > *vjehër `father-in-law' < *swek'uro- (through *swesk'uro-?),
Gr.
> > > hekuros and
> > > vetë `self' < *swe-, cf. Lat. suus.
> >
> >
> > 'After stress'/'Before stress'?
> >
> >   *vjehër was stressed on the first syllable (base on e > je)
like
> > diell too (e > ie) -> Where is the difference?
> >
> >   Marius
> >
> >
> > P.S. : but I agree that is a difficult problem here...
>
> ************
> My view about Alb vjehra and vjehër:
>
> *swek'ra:s `mother-in-law'. 1. Alb vjehrra `mother-in-law' from
> *swek'rweH2: NWels chwegr `mother-in-law': Lat socrus `mother-in-
> law': OE sweger `mother-in-law', OCS svekry `husband's mother': Grk
> hekura: `husband's mother': Arm skesur `husband's mother': Skt
> œvaœru:- `mother-in-law'. 2. vjehërr `father-in-law' form
> *swek'rwos;: NWels chwergrwn `father-in-law': Lat socer `father-in-
> law', OE swe:or `father-in-law': OCS svekru `husband's father': Grk
> hekuros `wife's father': Av xvasur: Skt œváœura- `father-in-law' 3.
> Abstract noun vjehërri `parents-in-law'. (Pokorny swek'ru:- 1043.)
>
> Sorry, but I am very busy and I can't reply immediately. But, from
> above examples everyone could judge that the word is stressed in
> second syllable.
>
>
> Konushevci



  Abdullah, if 'everyone could judge' that the word WAS stressed in
second syllable. ...I well hope that that persons can also explain
why /je/ in vjehërr: even you, I hope, isn't it?

  Marius

P.S. :  On my side, I know that ONLY e/accented > je

--- In balkanika@yahoogroups.com, "alexandru_mg3"
<alexandru_mg3@...> wrote:
>
> --- In balkanika@yahoogroups.com, "Abdullah Konushevci"
> <akonushevci@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In balkanika@yahoogroups.com, "Alvin Ekmekciu" <Ekmekciu@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > PIE *swergh- 'suffer' > Alb. vuaj 'id.'
> > >
> > > Could this be right ?
> > >
> > > Alvin
> > ************
> > Beekes' rule: *sw- > d- before stress, v- elsewhere (?)
> > dirsë `seat' < *swidro-tia: (?), Gr. hidros, OHG sweiz;
> > diell `sun' < *swel- (?), Skr. Svarati
> > So, we may add:
> > *sworgh-eyo, causative of *swergh- `to worry, be sick' that
yields
> > Alb dargj- and due to i-Umlaut, caused by ending –eyo > dergj
> > *swep- > Alb djep `cradle' (my etymology), but sup-no > gjumë
> > But, after stess:
> > *vjehër `father-in-law' < *swek'uro- (through *swesk'uro-?), Gr.
> > hekuros and
> > vetë `self' < *swe-, cf. Lat. suus.
>
>
> 'After stress'/'Before stress'?
>
>   *vjehër was stressed on the first syllable (base on e > je) like
> diell too (e > ie) -> Where is the difference?
>
>   Marius
>
>
> P.S. : but I agree that is a difficult problem here...

************
My view about Alb vjehra and vjehër:

*swek'ra:s `mother-in-law'. 1. Alb vjehrra `mother-in-law' from
*swek'rweH2: NWels chwegr `mother-in-law': Lat socrus `mother-in-
law': OE sweger `mother-in-law', OCS svekry `husband's mother': Grk
hekura: `husband's mother': Arm skesur `husband's mother': Skt
œvaœru:- `mother-in-law'. 2. vjehërr `father-in-law' form
*swek'rwos;: NWels chwergrwn `father-in-law': Lat socer `father-in-
law', OE swe:or `father-in-law': OCS svekru `husband's father': Grk
hekuros `wife's father': Av xvasur: Skt œváœura- `father-in-law' 3.
Abstract noun vjehërri `parents-in-law'. (Pokorny swek'ru:- 1043.)

Sorry, but I am very busy and I can't reply immediately. But, from
above examples everyone could judge that the word is stressed in
second syllable.


Konushevci

--- In balkanika@yahoogroups.com, "Abdullah Konushevci"
<akonushevci@...> wrote:
>
> --- In balkanika@yahoogroups.com, "Alvin Ekmekciu" <Ekmekciu@>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > PIE *swergh- 'suffer' > Alb. vuaj 'id.'
> >
> > Could this be right ?
> >
> > Alvin
> ************
> Beekes' rule: *sw- > d- before stress, v- elsewhere (?)
> dirsë `seat' < *swidro-tia: (?), Gr. hidros, OHG sweiz;
> diell `sun' < *swel- (?), Skr. Svarati
> So, we may add:
> *sworgh-eyo, causative of *swergh- `to worry, be sick' that yields
> Alb dargj- and due to i-Umlaut, caused by ending –eyo > dergj
> *swep- > Alb djep `cradle' (my etymology), but sup-no > gjumë
> But, after stess:
> *vjehër `father-in-law' < *swek'uro- (through *swesk'uro-?), Gr.
> hekuros and
> vetë `self' < *swe-, cf. Lat. suus.


'After stress'/'Before stress'?

   *vjehër was stressed on the first syllable (base on e > je) like
diell too (e > ie) -> Where is the difference?

   Marius


P.S. : but I agree that is a difficult problem here...

--- In balkanika@yahoogroups.com, "altamix" <alxmoeller@...> wrote:
>
> --- In balkanika@yahoogroups.com, "Abdullah Konushevci"
> <akonushevci@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > PIE *swergh- 'suffer' > Alb. vuaj 'id.'
> > > >
> > > > Could this be right ?
> > > >
> > > > Alvin
> > > ************
> > > Beekes' rule: *sw- > d- before stress, v- elsewhere (?)
> > > dirsë `seat' < *swidro-tia: (?), Gr. hidros, OHG sweiz;
> > > diell `sun' < *swel- (?), Skr. Svarati
>
>
> sw > d = very strange. in the same way strange as m. or n. i
> ssupposed to give "a". But about these, later.
>
> > > So, we may add:
> > > *sworgh-eyo, causative of *swergh- `to worry, be sick' that
> > > yields Alb dargj- and due to i-Umlaut, caused by ending –eyo >
> > > dergj *swep- > Alb djep `cradle' (my etymology), but sup-no >
> > >  gjumë
>
> yes; acient "s" > "sh" and as as second wave of new "s"
became "sh",
> then the present "sh" became "gj-", this is my view about this.
That
> means:
> PIE times "s" >"sh"
> Latin times "s" > "sh" and old "sh" ( from PIE "s") > "gj"
>
>
> > > But, after stess:
> > > *vjehër `father-in-law' < *swek'uro- (through *swesk'uro-?),
Gr.
> > > hekuros and
> > > vetë `self' < *swe-, cf. Lat. suus.
>
>
> actually it seems to me here the initial "s" got lost and the
> *swesk'uro thus, the outcome is "v".
>
>
> > >
> > > My view about Alb vuaj `suffer'
> > > *welH-/*werH- `to strike, wound'. Alb varrë `wound' from *wor-
> > > neH2,  dvarret `to be wounded' as prefixal derivative: Skt
vraná-
> > >  `wound',  Rus rana `wound': Latin volnus `wound, injury': Grk
> > > oule: `scar'.  (Mallory-Adams wol/rno/eha- 198.)
> >
> > The Alb vuaj/vuej < vuoj < vouj < *wo:l-yo/*wo:r-yo could much
> > easily  be explained as semantically, as phonetically than from
> Lat.
> > vive:re as was treated till now, .
> >
>
> why all this? Why corelations with vrana, varrë. volnus?
Phoenticaly
> the word is very appropiate to Romanian "vai", "vaiet", vãita", and
> appropiate to Latin "vae" . Isnt it?
>
> Alex
>



  I fully agree with Alex here, why not from Latin "vae"?


  Marius

--- In balkanika@yahoogroups.com, "Abdullah Konushevci"
<akonushevci@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > PIE *swergh- 'suffer' > Alb. vuaj 'id.'
> > >
> > > Could this be right ?
> > >
> > > Alvin
> > ************
> > Beekes' rule: *sw- > d- before stress, v- elsewhere (?)
> > dirsë `seat' < *swidro-tia: (?), Gr. hidros, OHG sweiz;
> > diell `sun' < *swel- (?), Skr. Svarati


sw > d = very strange. in the same way strange as m. or n. i
ssupposed to give "a". But about these, later.

> > So, we may add:
> > *sworgh-eyo, causative of *swergh- `to worry, be sick' that
> > yields Alb dargj- and due to i-Umlaut, caused by ending –eyo >
> > dergj *swep- > Alb djep `cradle' (my etymology), but sup-no >
> >  gjumë

yes; acient "s" > "sh" and as as second wave of new "s" became "sh",
then the present "sh" became "gj-", this is my view about this. That
means:
PIE times "s" >"sh"
Latin times "s" > "sh" and old "sh" ( from PIE "s") > "gj"


> > But, after stess:
> > *vjehër `father-in-law' < *swek'uro- (through *swesk'uro-?), Gr.
> > hekuros and
> > vetë `self' < *swe-, cf. Lat. suus.


actually it seems to me here the initial "s" got lost and the
*swesk'uro thus, the outcome is "v".


> >
> > My view about Alb vuaj `suffer'
> > *welH-/*werH- `to strike, wound'. Alb varrë `wound' from *wor-
> > neH2,  dvarret `to be wounded' as prefixal derivative: Skt vraná-
> >  `wound',  Rus rana `wound': Latin volnus `wound, injury': Grk
> > oule: `scar'.  (Mallory-Adams wol/rno/eha- 198.)
>
> The Alb vuaj/vuej < vuoj < vouj < *wo:l-yo/*wo:r-yo could much
> easily  be explained as semantically, as phonetically than from
Lat.
> vive:re as was treated till now, .
>

why all this? Why corelations with vrana, varrë. volnus? Phoenticaly
the word is very appropiate to Romanian "vai", "vaiet", vãita", and
appropiate to Latin "vae" . Isnt it?

Alex

--- In balkanika@yahoogroups.com, "Abdullah Konushevci"
<akonushevci@...> wrote:
>
> --- In balkanika@yahoogroups.com, "Alvin Ekmekciu" <Ekmekciu@>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > PIE *swergh- 'suffer' > Alb. vuaj 'id.'
> >
> > Could this be right ?
> >
> > Alvin
> ************
> Beekes' rule: *sw- > d- before stress, v- elsewhere (?)
> dirsë `seat' < *swidro-tia: (?), Gr. hidros, OHG sweiz;
> diell `sun' < *swel- (?), Skr. Svarati
> So, we may add:
> *sworgh-eyo, causative of *swergh- `to worry, be sick' that yields
> Alb dargj- and due to i-Umlaut, caused by ending –eyo > dergj
> *swep- > Alb djep `cradle' (my etymology), but sup-no > gjumë
> But, after stess:
> *vjehër `father-in-law' < *swek'uro- (through *swesk'uro-?), Gr.
> hekuros and
> vetë `self' < *swe-, cf. Lat. suus.
>
> My view about Alb vuaj `suffer'
> *welH-/*werH- `to strike, wound'. Alb varrë `wound' from *wor-
neH2,
> dvarret `to be wounded' as prefixal derivative: Skt vraná-
`wound',
> Rus rana `wound': Latin volnus `wound, injury': Grk oule: `scar'.
> (Mallory-Adams wol/rno/eha- 198.)

The Alb vuaj/vuej < vuoj < vouj < *wo:l-yo/*wo:r-yo could much
easily  be explained as semantically, as phonetically than from Lat.
vive:re as was treated till now, .

--- In balkanika@yahoogroups.com, "Alvin Ekmekciu" <Ekmekciu@...>
wrote:
>
>
> PIE *swergh- 'suffer' > Alb. vuaj 'id.'
>
> Could this be right ?
>
> Alvin
************
Beekes' rule: *sw- > d- before stress, v- elsewhere (?)
dirsë `seat' < *swidro-tia: (?), Gr. hidros, OHG sweiz;
diell `sun' < *swel- (?), Skr. Svarati
So, we may add:
*sworgh-eyo, causative of *swergh- `to worry, be sick' that yields
Alb dargj- and due to i-Umlaut, caused by ending –eyo > dergj
*swep- > Alb djep `cradle' (my etymology), but sup-no > gjumë
But, after stess:
*vjehër `father-in-law' < *swek'uro- (through *swesk'uro-?), Gr.
hekuros and
vetë `self' < *swe-, cf. Lat. suus.

My view about Alb vuaj `suffer'
*welH-/*werH- `to strike, wound'. Alb varrë `wound' from *wor-neH2,
dvarret `to be wounded' as prefixal derivative: Skt vraná- `wound',
Rus rana `wound': Latin volnus `wound, injury': Grk oule: `scar'.
(Mallory-Adams wol/rno/eha- 198.)

PIE *swergh- 'suffer' > Alb. vuaj 'id.'

Could this be right ?

Alvin

--- In balkanika@yahoogroups.com, "Abdullah Konushevci"
<akonushevci@...> wrote:
>
> --- In balkanika@yahoogroups.com, "Abdullah Konushevci"
> <akonushevci@> wrote:
> >
> > In honor to Ovidiu and Romanian www.dictionare.com, that sends
to
> me
> > the Romanian Map, I like to make some comparisons between
Romanian
> > place names and Albanian place names, with hope that it will
> strike
> > productive discussion.
> >
> > 1. Anina – Janina, same suffix –ina in both place names;
>
> I like to extended the list with river name Ari-on, Rom Ari-esh,
> river name Argent/Ergent, Rom Arg-esh.
>
> > 2. Bicaz – Prekaz, Nivokaz, same suffix –az;

And I forgot to mention most important concordance: Alb Bukur-isht
(cf. Delbn-isht, Blin-isht) and Rom BukureSte.

> > 3. Calafat – Progonat, Filat, Lazarat, I am unsure about that
> > if we have in it to deal with the plural suffix –at;
>
> I will add also place name Dukat.
> > 4. Calan – Kal-at-icë, Kal-ish, Kal-iq-an, probably from Latin
> > callis `road';
> > 5. Caranseb-eS – Martan-esh, Kurvel-esh, Part-esh, same suffix;
> > 6. Comarnic- Komar-an, same stem in both places, maybe from
> > *kom-?
> > 7. Corabia – Korab, most appreciated mountain in Albania, same
> > stem in both toponyms;
> > 8. Curtici – Kurt-esh, Kurti, Kurt-ish, same stem in both;
> > 9. Deva – Deva, probably umlauted form of –dava, used as
> > singularized plural.
> > 10. DragaSani – Dragash, same stem and suffix –ash;
> > 11. Petrila – Petrila/Petrela, probably in honor to Anna Komnena;
> > 12. PiteSti – Bit-esh, seems we have to deal with same stem and
> > suffix;
> > 13. Ramnicu – Ramnik/Remnik, same stem and suffix;
> > 14. Roman – Roman-ishte/Riman-ishte, Romajë, very interesting
> > type of toponyms;
> > 15. Satu Mare – Bu-shat, Nën-shat, probably from
> > appellative `fshat' (village);
> > 16. Slatina – Slatina, maybe of Slavic origin;
> > 17. Sovata – Bu-sovat, same stem with chapracteristic Alb.
> > prefix (see above Bu-shat);
> > 18. Suceava – Sukë, I hope from appellative `sukë';
> > 19. Sulina – Suli, most known Albanian village, today in Greek
> > territory;
> > 20. Targovishte – Tergovisht < Tregovisht probably from
> > appellative <treg> `market';
> > 21. Tarnaveni – Tërnavë, same stem and suffix;
> > 22. Turda – Truda, attested Trudna, they could be related, but
> > there is job to be done;
> > 23. Vatra Dornei, probably from appellative `vatra';
> > 24. Zalau – Zajaz, Zaje-çevac, from plural form of Alb.
> > zall `sand'.
>
> 25. Alb Kalimash, Rom Caliman.
> >
> > Konushevci
>

--- In balkanika@yahoogroups.com, "Abdullah Konushevci"
<akonushevci@...> wrote:
>
> In honor to Ovidiu and Romanian www.dictionare.com, that sends to
me
> the Romanian Map, I like to make some comparisons between Romanian
> place names and Albanian place names, with hope that it will
strike
> productive discussion.
>
> 1. Anina – Janina, same suffix –ina in both place names;

I like to extended the list with river name Ari-on, Rom Ari-esh,
river name Argent/Ergent, Rom Arg-esh.

> 2. Bicaz – Prekaz, Nivokaz, same suffix –az;
> 3. Calafat – Progonat, Filat, Lazarat, I am unsure about that
> if we have in it to deal with the plural suffix –at;

I will add also place name Dukat.
> 4. Calan – Kal-at-icë, Kal-ish, Kal-iq-an, probably from Latin
> callis `road';
> 5. Caranseb-eS – Martan-esh, Kurvel-esh, Part-esh, same suffix;
> 6. Comarnic- Komar-an, same stem in both places, maybe from
> *kom-?
> 7. Corabia – Korab, most appreciated mountain in Albania, same
> stem in both toponyms;
> 8. Curtici – Kurt-esh, Kurti, Kurt-ish, same stem in both;
> 9. Deva – Deva, probably umlauted form of –dava, used as
> singularized plural.
> 10. DragaSani – Dragash, same stem and suffix –ash;
> 11. Petrila – Petrila/Petrela, probably in honor to Anna Komnena;
> 12. PiteSti – Bit-esh, seems we have to deal with same stem and
> suffix;
> 13. Ramnicu – Ramnik/Remnik, same stem and suffix;
> 14. Roman – Roman-ishte/Riman-ishte, Romajë, very interesting
> type of toponyms;
> 15. Satu Mare – Bu-shat, Nën-shat, probably from
> appellative `fshat' (village);
> 16. Slatina – Slatina, maybe of Slavic origin;
> 17. Sovata – Bu-sovat, same stem with chapracteristic Alb.
> prefix (see above Bu-shat);
> 18. Suceava – Sukë, I hope from appellative `sukë';
> 19. Sulina – Suli, most known Albanian village, today in Greek
> territory;
> 20. Targovishte – Tergovisht < Tregovisht probably from
> appellative <treg> `market';
> 21. Tarnaveni – Tërnavë, same stem and suffix;
> 22. Turda – Truda, attested Trudna, they could be related, but
> there is job to be done;
> 23. Vatra Dornei, probably from appellative `vatra';
> 24. Zalau – Zajaz, Zaje-çevac, from plural form of Alb.
> zall `sand'.

25. Alb Kalimash, Rom Caliman.
>
> Konushevci

--- In balkanika@yahoogroups.com, alex <alxmoeller@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> alexandru_mg3 schrieb:
> >
> >
> > --- In balkanika@yahoogroups.com <mailto:balkanika%
40yahoogroups.com>,
> > "alexandru_mg3" <alexandru_mg3@>
> > wrote:
> >  > (Also, I didn't check until when, the neuter in -uri [campuri,
> >  > maluri, neamuri, valuri] was active, maybe we could have a
conclusion
> >  > from here too: if it became really inactive somewhere in the
past or
> >  > is still active today. Could you try to check it too? If
inactive
> >  > today and we coudl find the past border, this will give us
another
> >  > hint about how old neam is)
> >  >
> >  > Marius
> >  >
> >
> > We have 'stilou/stilouri' so the neuter in -uri is still active.
> >
> > Marius
>
>
> almost all neutra have the plural in -uri there has been no time
> where this building form ceased to be active. As you already
> mention, even today this is very productive: design - designuri,
> maus-mausuri, bal-baluri etc.
> Neam is too a neutra, thus it makes the plural in "uri" as
expected.
> Something else bother me. I ask myself if this suffix "-uri" is the
> one who does not the original vowel to be reconstructed back in the
> plural form.I mean, if in the original word was an "e" there which
> became "ea" or "a" in Rum. then, usualy, this "e" is rebuilded back
> in Rum. in the plural form ( wellknown examples of fatã-fete versus
> latin feta). So I tried to figure out if this indeed a such
> impediment. I found for instance a feminine noun "ceartã" which in
> plural form, even if the plural is made up with "-uri", the "e" is
> rebuilded: ceartã - certuri. Of course one example is too weak but
> continuining the idea, if the "-uri" is no impediment in
> reconstructing the "e" there where it has been an "e", then in
> "neam", was no "e" since the plural is not "*nemuri" but "neamuri".
> Possible then you are right there and we haven an "n~", a
palatalise
> d "n".....
>
> Alex
>


  I agree with what you said : we have a /nj/ using the Albanian
notation in neam

   On the other hand I have tried to clarify with my Hungarian friends
what is the situation in Hungarian:

   The Hungarian word is nemzet 'neam' and is considered to be a
derivation of an (inexistent today) 'nem' (today existent 'nem'
means 'No' so it cannot be from here as DEX mention) =>

So that *nem of nemzet at his turn is considered to be a loaned from
an (unknown) IE-Language that has/had a word from the PIE *h3neh3m-
'name'

   As you can see 'nemzet' in Hungarian is not an inherited name at
they try to link it with an unknown IE-Language having a similar word
from the PIE *<name> root :)

   Marius

alexandru_mg3 schrieb:
>
>
> --- In balkanika@yahoogroups.com <mailto:balkanika%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "alexandru_mg3" <alexandru_mg3@...>
> wrote:
>  > (Also, I didn't check until when, the neuter in -uri [campuri,
>  > maluri, neamuri, valuri] was active, maybe we could have a conclusion
>  > from here too: if it became really inactive somewhere in the past or
>  > is still active today. Could you try to check it too? If inactive
>  > today and we coudl find the past border, this will give us another
>  > hint about how old neam is)
>  >
>  > Marius
>  >
>
> We have 'stilou/stilouri' so the neuter in -uri is still active.
>
> Marius


almost all neutra have the plural in -uri there has been no time
where this building form ceased to be active. As you already
mention, even today this is very productive: design - designuri,
maus-mausuri, bal-baluri etc.
Neam is too a neutra, thus it makes the plural in "uri" as expected.
Something else bother me. I ask myself if this suffix "-uri" is the
one who does not the original vowel to be reconstructed back in the
plural form.I mean, if in the original word was an "e" there which
became "ea" or "a" in Rum. then, usualy, this "e" is rebuilded back
in Rum. in the plural form ( wellknown examples of fatã-fete versus
latin feta). So I tried to figure out if this indeed a such
impediment. I found for instance a feminine noun "ceartã" which in
plural form, even if the plural is made up with "-uri", the "e" is
rebuilded: ceartã - certuri. Of course one example is too weak but
continuining the idea, if the "-uri" is no impediment in
reconstructing the "e" there where it has been an "e", then in
"neam", was no "e" since the plural is not "*nemuri" but "neamuri".
Possible then you are right there and we haven an "n~", a palatalise
d "n".....

Alex

--- In balkanika@yahoogroups.com, "alexandru_mg3" <alexandru_mg3@...>
wrote:
>  (Also, I didn't check until when, the neuter in -uri [campuri,
> maluri, neamuri, valuri] was active, maybe we could have a conclusion
> from here too: if it became really inactive somewhere in the past or
> is still active today. Could you try to check it too? If inactive
> today and we coudl find the past border, this will give us another
> hint about how old neam is)
>
>   Marius
>

We have 'stilou/stilouri' so the neuter in -uri is still active.

Marius

--- In balkanika@yahoogroups.com, alex <alxmoeller@...> wrote:
>
>
> alexandru_mg3 schrieb:
>
> >
> >  > there and this *nemV maybe is cognate with Latin "nomes",
> >  > Greek "onomas"? I guess this is a dificult taste here and if
these
> >  > are the real cognates, then "neam" is from IE via "albanoid"
> >  > transformation "o>a" with a further change of the last vocal
after
>  > >  a hypothetic diphtongation? What do you think about this word
> at all?
> >  >
> >  >
> >
> > I think that we don't have any e in this word.
> >
> > Do you here one? I don't.
> >
> > I hear a nj- there: nj-am
> >
> > What do you think?
> >
> > Marius
>
> I am not so sure. For me I hear it the same "ea" as in "ne-am facut
> cã plouã", I don't feel any difference here.
> If I think about, the plural is without "e", there is a neutra
> "neamuri" so this wil speak against an older "e" in *nemV-


You are right. This is my conclusion too.
There wasn't any /e/ in neamuri  => I'm glad that you have made the
same deduction (in fact is a very simple and logical one)


> You connect it too with "name" or do you have something else you
> think about?
>
> Alex


I cannot connect yet with a root, but for me the real phonetism is
very important otherwise we will go from the beginning on the wrong
path. (as from codru I'm sure that the phonetism was *kwa:- only wa:
gave /o/ both in Romanian (in some contexts) as in Albanian )

   I agree that "neam" sounds like "ne-am" but I think that there too,
is nj + am

   Do you hear any phonetic difference between "ea" (as a diphtong)
and "ja"? In fact my opinion is that there is no 'ea' in Romanian and
that we have only ja/je of course from difference sources.


   Now this ja/ea phonetism (like oa/wa) goes ONLY until the first
wave of Slavic loans in Romanian (see /kwas&/ -> where /wa/ is still
present) and based on this Rule (please check it too) it cannot be
applicable for a Magyar loan in Romanian.

   As result neam is a Romanian loan in Hungarian.

   In addition,  I think that in general the considered Magyar Loans
in Romanian, that are distributed all over Romanians regions,
(like 'neam') are in fact Old Romanian Words loaned in Hungarian.
But this is only a contextual/indirect argument.

  (Also, I didn't check until when, the neuter in -uri [campuri,
maluri, neamuri, valuri] was active, maybe we could have a conclusion
from here too: if it became really inactive somewhere in the past or
is still active today. Could you try to check it too? If inactive
today and we coudl find the past border, this will give us another
hint about how old neam is)

   Marius

alexandru_mg3 schrieb:

>
>  > there and this *nemV maybe is cognate with Latin "nomes",
>  > Greek "onomas"? I guess this is a dificult taste here and if these
>  > are the real cognates, then "neam" is from IE via "albanoid"
>  > transformation "o>a" with a further change of the last vocal after
  > >  a hypothetic diphtongation? What do you think about this word
at all?
>  >
>  >
>
> I think that we don't have any e in this word.
>
> Do you here one? I don't.
>
> I hear a nj- there: nj-am
>
> What do you think?
>
> Marius

I am not so sure. For me I hear it the same "ea" as in "ne-am facut
cã plouã", I don't feel any difference here.
If I think about, the plural is without "e", there is a neutra
"neamuri" so this wil speak against an older "e" in *nemV-
You connect it too with "name" or do you have something else you
think about?

Alex

--- In balkanika@yahoogroups.com, "alexandru_mg3" <alexandru_mg3@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In balkanika@yahoogroups.com, "altamix" <alxmoeller@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In balkanika@yahoogroups.com, "alexandru_mg3"
<alexandru_mg3@>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >  IN fact ginta is not used at all in current Romanian (or is
used
> > >  as  a neologism) and its fonetism is quite new.
> >
> > >
> > >  BUT NEAM is really an OLD WORD. Look at his phonetism annd
tell
> me
> > > what are the sounds inside...
> >
> > That is difficult since the diphtongation in this word does not
> > follows the rules accepted (e > ea when followed by an "ã" in the
> > next syllable. For having an "neam" there should have been an
> *nemV"
>
>   You are right. But there is no nemV : I mean nemV version is
older
> that the suppose neamV...
>
>
> > there and this *nemV maybe is cognate with Latin "nomes",
> > Greek "onomas"? I guess this is a dificult taste here and if
these
> > are the real cognates, then "neam" is from IE via "albanoid"
> > transformation  "o>a" with a further change of the last vocal
after
> a
> > hypothetic diphtongation? What do you think about this word at
all?
> >
> >
>
>   I think that we don't have any e in this word.
>
>   Do you here one? I don't.
>
>   I hear a nj- there: nj-am
>
>   What do you think?
>
>   Marius
>
Sorry : Do you hear one?...(I taped by error)

--- In balkanika@yahoogroups.com, "altamix" <alxmoeller@...> wrote:
>
> --- In balkanika@yahoogroups.com, "alexandru_mg3" <alexandru_mg3@>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >  IN fact ginta is not used at all in current Romanian (or is used
> >  as  a neologism) and its fonetism is quite new.
>
> >
> >  BUT NEAM is really an OLD WORD. Look at his phonetism annd tell
me
> > what are the sounds inside...
>
> That is difficult since the diphtongation in this word does not
> follows the rules accepted (e > ea when followed by an "ã" in the
> next syllable. For having an "neam" there should have been an
*nemV"

   You are right. But there is no nemV : I mean nemV version is older
that the suppose neamV...


> there and this *nemV maybe is cognate with Latin "nomes",
> Greek "onomas"? I guess this is a dificult taste here and if these
> are the real cognates, then "neam" is from IE via "albanoid"
> transformation  "o>a" with a further change of the last vocal after
a
> hypothetic diphtongation? What do you think about this word at all?
>
>

   I think that we don't have any e in this word.

   Do you here one? I don't.

   I hear a nj- there: nj-am

   What do you think?

   Marius

--- In balkanika@yahoogroups.com, "alexandru_mg3" <alexandru_mg3@...>
wrote:

>
>  IN fact ginta is not used at all in current Romanian (or is used
>  as  a neologism) and its fonetism is quite new.

>
>  BUT NEAM is really an OLD WORD. Look at his phonetism annd tell me
> what are the sounds inside...

That is difficult since the diphtongation in this word does not
follows the rules accepted (e > ea when followed by an "ã" in the
next syllable. For having an "neam" there should have been an *nemV"
there and this *nemV maybe is cognate with Latin "nomes",
Greek "onomas"? I guess this is a dificult taste here and if these
are the real cognates, then "neam" is from IE via "albanoid"
transformation  "o>a" with a further change of the last vocal after a
hypothetic diphtongation? What do you think about this word at all?



>
>  The fact that there are no derivatives is not a hint: Viezure has
> only Viezurina (< Vizuina) as derivative and is very OLD too...not
to
> talk about Druete, Br^anca, G~albeaza, C~ac^ula  (only some
> diminutive exists: caciulitsa), Strepede, Ciuca, Ciucur etc...
>  Almost no derived words.
>
>  This theory with the number of derivatives is a false friend...
>
>  Marius
>

The number of derivatives is not a false friend but it pretty depends
on the word. Ciuc, ciucur & co are by themselves a family of words,
they are all derivatives but not each word can have a lot of
derivatives if there is no need to build any. Just joking, we can ask
so why should one build a derivate for "brâncã" if there is no need
for :-))


Alex

--- In balkanika@yahoogroups.com, alex <alxmoeller@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Abdullah Konushevci schrieb:
>
> >  > Lat. genus > Alb. gjini (race, sex)
> >  > Lat. gentem > Alb. gjind (people)
> >  >
> >  > Alvin
>
> .....
>
> > Rom
> > ginta 'nation, people, family' and Macedonian ginda, according to
> > Meyer, are loans from Albanian.
>
>
> actually the word "gintã" appears to be new to me. It has almost no
> use beside the use in literar aspects of the language. The Rum.
word
> for "gintã" is in fact "neam" which is considered to be a loan from
> Hungarian by some linguists. Of course I can be wrong, but without
> doing any sumare search, my felling here is that this word is a
> recent one , maybe 2-300 years old, with no derivatives.
>
> Alex
>

  IN fact ginta is not used at all in current Romanian (or is used as
a neologism) and its fonetism is quite new.

  BUT NEAM is really an OLD WORD. Look at his phonetism annd tell me
what are the sounds inside...

  The fact that there are no derivatives is not a hint: Viezure has
only Viezurina (< Vizuina) as derivative and is very OLD too...not to
talk about Druete, Br^anca, G~albeaza, C~ac^ula  (only some
diminutive exists: caciulitsa), Strepede, Ciuca, Ciucur etc...
  Almost no derived words.

  This theory with the number of derivatives is a false friend...

  Marius

Abdullah Konushevci schrieb:

>  > Lat. genus > Alb. gjini (race, sex)
>  > Lat. gentem > Alb. gjind (people)
>  >
>  > Alvin

.....

> Rom
> ginta 'nation, people, family' and Macedonian ginda, according to
> Meyer, are loans from Albanian.


actually the word "gintã" appears to be new to me. It has almost no
use beside the use in literar aspects of the language. The Rum. word
for "gintã" is in fact "neam" which is considered to be a loan from
Hungarian by some linguists. Of course I can be wrong, but without
doing any sumare search, my felling here is that this word is a
recent one , maybe 2-300 years old, with no derivatives.

As for sex.... that is a strange situation.. So far I remember, the
Rumanians used in OldRomanian "share, part" in the combination
"parte femeiascã, parte bãrbãteascã"; somehow, each animal has a
name for male part and for the female part, so just hearing the
word, one knows this is a "she" or a "he" without being needed to
use the word "sex" for determining if something is feminine gender
or a masculine gender.. There where a such difference is not given,
then a suffix is used for making the difference , for building a
"she" or a "he". It appears interesting to see how archaic can be
the language in some circumstances. (meanining how limited in its
vocabulary)

Alex

--- In balkanika@yahoogroups.com, "Abdullah Konushevci"
<akonushevci@...> wrote:
>
> --- In balkanika@yahoogroups.com, "alexandru_mg3" <alexandru_mg3@>
> wrote:
> >
>
> >   Abdullah, Abdullah, Greek th in ama-TH-os reflects PIE *dH- and
> PIE
> > *dH- is Albanian d- so Alb. mat cannot be linked with mathos in
any
> > way (from PIE, I mean....)
> >
> >   So better not to write "by all means"....
> >
> >   Beekes. of course, didn't link amathos with Albanian mat : he
> > considers amathos a NON_IE word and he said only that
> >
> > "On possible Albanian connections Cabej Studi Pisani 1, 174f. "
>
> Marius, Marius, attested aform is Mat(h)is: see Katicich.
>


Abdullah the Greek word is amathos  (please check it : is with 'teta')
And the Albanian word is mat (I hope you know)

So what you wanted to say here?
In what language is 'attested' this Mat(h)is? Albanian or Greek? :)

Marius

--- In balkanika@yahoogroups.com, "alexandru_mg3" <alexandru_mg3@...>
wrote:
>

>   Abdullah, Abdullah, Greek th in ama-TH-os reflects PIE *dH- and
PIE
> *dH- is Albanian d- so Alb. mat cannot be linked with mathos in any
> way (from PIE, I mean....)
>
>   So better not to write "by all means"....
>
>   Beekes. of course, didn't link amathos with Albanian mat : he
> considers amathos a NON_IE word and he said only that
>
> "On possible Albanian connections Cabej Studi Pisani 1, 174f. "

Marius, Marius, attested aform is Mat(h)is: see Katicich.

--- In balkanika@yahoogroups.com, "Abdullah Konushevci"
<akonushevci@...> wrote:
>
> --- In balkanika@yahoogroups.com, "alexandru_mg3"
> <alexandru_mg3@> wrote:
>
> > a) PIE n. > Alb a  (not /en/)
> >     Alb. mat 'bank , shore' < PIE *mn.-to (Lat. mo:ns 'mountain')
> >
> >    so  *g'n.h1-to > *gent > etc.. is impossible
>
> First, Alb mat is by all means a cognate with Greek amathos 'sand'
> and is also attested in ancient sources as a river name Mathis, so
> your assumption, if it is yours at all, is far-fetched (see also
> Beekes, Record number 421 of Greek Inherited Dictionary; Radoslav
> Katicich, Ancient Languages of the Balkans, page 182.). The
question
> is did we have  to deal at allwith PIE root.


   Abdullah, Abdullah, Greek th in ama-TH-os reflects PIE *dH- and PIE
*dH- is Albanian d- so Alb. mat cannot be linked with mathos in any
way (from PIE, I mean....)

   So better not to write "by all means"....

   Beekes. of course, didn't link amathos with Albanian mat : he
considers amathos a NON_IE word and he said only that

"On possible Albanian connections Cabej Studi Pisani 1, 174f. "

URL:
http://www.indo-european.nl/cgi-bin/response.cgi?
root=leiden&morpho=0&basename=%5Cdata%5Cie%
5Cgreek&first=1&sort=lemma&text_lemma=&method_lemma=substring&text_gra
mmar=&method_grammar=substring&text_meaning=sand&method_meaning=substr
ing&text_forms=&method_forms=substring&text_dialect=&method_dialect=su
bstring&text_composita=&method_composita=substring&text_derivative=&me
thod_derivative=substring&text_origin=&method_origin=substring&text_et
ymology=&method_etymology=substring&text_seealso=&method_seealso=subst
ring&text_pages=&method_pages=substring&text_any=&method_any=substring


   I will come back on the ther points too.

   Marius







> >
> >   The second argument for n. > a is that PIE *m. > Alb a too
> >
> > (and the outputs of m. n. 'go together' in each IE Languages)
>
> It depends on the environment, because as liquids, as nasals show
> different behavior, followed by different laryngeals. Assumption
> that *m. have yielded Alb /a/ is Piotr's one and can't by sustained
> by any plausible example. See for completly different approach S.
> Mann (PIE *n. > Alb an and *m. > an), most based one, and Mallory-
> Adams.
>
> >
> > b) For *k'won 'dog', the zero-grade is *k'un- so there is no
> reason
> > to suppose the vocalization of n in k^un-to because we have a V-n-
> C
> > cluster: k'-u-n-t-
>
> Why don't you take the look in the root *k'won (Watkins AHDIR, p.
> 46.) to see the tro zero-grade form insted of recunstruction of
such
> monstrous zero-grade form.
> Furthermore, how do you explain the lack of rhotacism in Tosk
> dialect, if you insist that it is a loan from latin.
>
> >
> >      so PIE *k^un-t-o (=> OE hund) => would gave Alb
*thun/*thund
> > not qen that reflects VLat. cane (> Rom. c ^a n e)
> >
> > About w=0 see *bhwi- in Alb bimë, cf. Greek phyton and *dhwo:r- >
> Alb derë etc.
>
> > However a full-grade  *men-ti would give Alb. mend
> >
> > Unfortunately the attested forms reflects a zero-grade mn.-t-i-
> (Lith
> > mintis [PIE n. > Lith in), but a restauration of the full grade
> *men-
> > ti by analogy in Albanian is not impossible.
>
> Exactly, the zero-grade form *mn.-ti underlys the Albanian
> men 'mind', due to -nt- > -nd- > -nn- > -n-. Form mend with
> homorganic /d/ is secondary.
>
> > However Latin mentis (see Rom minte) would gave Alb mend without
> > issues, so Alb. mend is more probable a Latin loan too, as qen
>
> Now, about Alb gjini: Historical meaning was 'clan'; ethnografical
> meaning was 'matrilineal family'; close family relationship; close
> relative; biological meaning 'genus'; lingusitic meaning 'gender'
> and 'sort, type' (OAED, p. 287.) the meanings that can't cover
> supposed Lat genus, -eris 'race, kind', as well as Greek genos and
> genea 'race, family'. Moreover, as Lat genus, as Greek genos are
> masculine nouns, till the Albanian is abstract noun in -ia:, so
> Albanian is derived from *g'n.H1-t-ia: as was Lat gens (stem gent-)
> and Greek genesis 'birth, begining', that testifies for *H1
> character of laryngeal etc.
>
> > Marius
>
> Taking all this into consideration, I rest my case.
>
> Konushevci
>

--- In balkanika@yahoogroups.com, "alexandru_mg3"
<alexandru_mg3@...> wrote:

> a) PIE n. > Alb a  (not /en/)
>     Alb. mat 'bank , shore' < PIE *mn.-to (Lat. mo:ns 'mountain')
>
>    so  *g'n.h1-to > *gent > etc.. is impossible

First, Alb mat is by all means a cognate with Greek amathos 'sand'
and is also attested in ancient sources as a river name Mathis, so
your assumption, if it is yours at all, is far-fetched (see also
Beekes, Record number 421 of Greek Inherited Dictionary; Radoslav
Katicich, Ancient Languages of the Balkans, page 182.). The question
is did we have  to deal at allwith PIE root.

>
>   The second argument for n. > a is that PIE *m. > Alb a too
>
> (and the outputs of m. n. 'go together' in each IE Languages)

It depends on the environment, because as liquids, as nasals show
different behavior, followed by different laryngeals. Assumption
that *m. have yielded Alb /a/ is Piotr's one and can't by sustained
by any plausible example. See for completly different approach S.
Mann (PIE *n. > Alb an and *m. > an), most based one, and Mallory-
Adams.

>
> b) For *k'won 'dog', the zero-grade is *k'un- so there is no
reason
> to suppose the vocalization of n in k^un-to because we have a V-n-
C
> cluster: k'-u-n-t-

Why don't you take the look in the root *k'won (Watkins AHDIR, p.
46.) to see the tro zero-grade form insted of recunstruction of such
monstrous zero-grade form.
Furthermore, how do you explain the lack of rhotacism in Tosk
dialect, if you insist that it is a loan from latin.

>
>      so PIE *k^un-t-o (=> OE hund) => would gave Alb *thun/*thund
> not qen that reflects VLat. cane (> Rom. c ^a n e)
>
> About w=0 see *bhwi- in Alb bimë, cf. Greek phyton and *dhwo:r- >
Alb derë etc.

> However a full-grade  *men-ti would give Alb. mend
>
> Unfortunately the attested forms reflects a zero-grade mn.-t-i-
(Lith
> mintis [PIE n. > Lith in), but a restauration of the full grade
*men-
> ti by analogy in Albanian is not impossible.

Exactly, the zero-grade form *mn.-ti underlys the Albanian
men 'mind', due to -nt- > -nd- > -nn- > -n-. Form mend with
homorganic /d/ is secondary.

> However Latin mentis (see Rom minte) would gave Alb mend without
> issues, so Alb. mend is more probable a Latin loan too, as qen

Now, about Alb gjini: Historical meaning was 'clan'; ethnografical
meaning was 'matrilineal family'; close family relationship; close
relative; biological meaning 'genus'; lingusitic meaning 'gender'
and 'sort, type' (OAED, p. 287.) the meanings that can't cover
supposed Lat genus, -eris 'race, kind', as well as Greek genos and
genea 'race, family'. Moreover, as Lat genus, as Greek genos are
masculine nouns, till the Albanian is abstract noun in -ia:, so
Albanian is derived from *g'n.H1-t-ia: as was Lat gens (stem gent-)
and Greek genesis 'birth, begining', that testifies for *H1
character of laryngeal etc.

> Marius

Taking all this into consideration, I rest my case.

Konushevci

--- In balkanika@yahoogroups.com, "Abdullah Konushevci"
<akonushevci@...> wrote:
>
> --- In balkanika@yahoogroups.com, "alexandru_mg3"
> <alexandru_mg3@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In balkanika@yahoogroups.com, "Abdullah Konushevci"
> > <akonushevci@> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In balkanika@yahoogroups.com, "Abdullah Konushevci"
> > > <akonushevci@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > --- In balkanika@yahoogroups.com, "Alvin Ekmekciu"
<Ekmekciu@>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Correct me if I am wrong:
> > > > >
> > > > > Lat. genus > Alb. gjini (race, sex)
> > > > > Lat. gentem > Alb. gjind (people)
> > > > >
> > > > > Alvin
> > > > ************
> > > > Historically speaking, you have right, see Meyer (EW, pp 141).
> > > > Albanian Gheg gjini 'sex, kind, race' could be from Lat
> genus, -
> > > > eris 'race, kind', even phonetically speaking, due to e > i
> > after -
> > > > os, it is much closer to Greek genos 'race, family', both
from
> > > *genH-
> > > > es-.
> > > > Tosk variant gjiri speaks in favor of a loan from Latin or
> Greek,
> > > > but it has no other derivatives, so it could be a
> hypercorrected
> > > > form.
> > > > Belonging to basic vocabulary, I doubt that it could be a
> loan. I
> > > > suspect that it could be from zero-grade form *g'n.H1-nt- >
> PAlb
> > > > *gent-, attested in Illyrian king's name
Genthios 'procreator'
> > and
> > > > due to -eCC- > -iCC- we have final result gjini 'family,
kind,
> > > sex'
> > > > from *g'n.H-nt-ia, cf. Nusja shkoi në gjini 'The bride gos to
> her
> > > > family', gjinia njerëzore 'humankind', gjin(d)
> orja 'genitivus'.
> > > Rom
> > > > ginta 'nation, people, family' and Macedonian ginda,
according
> to
> > > > Meyer, are loans from Albanian.
> > > > Alb gjintë `people' with variants gjin(d)ja testifies of
> gender
> > > > change, but first is a neuter and second a feminine noun. So,
> we
> > > > have to deal with the same stem *g'n.H1-nt-, but extended
with
> > > > different suffixes –ia:, -ta:, -ya:, that provide different,
> but
> > > > close meanings.
> > > Self-correction: zero-grade form *g'n.H1-t- instead of *g'n.H1-
t-
>
> > > (see Lat. gn.H-ti > gens (stem genti-, Greek genesis, etc.)
> > > >
> > > > Konushevci
> > > >
> > >
> >
> > Alb gjini is for sure a loan from Latin => Arguments:
> > -----------------------------------------------------
> >
> > PIE *g'n merged together with PIE *gn in Early-PAlb *gn that
> arrived
> > next to PAlb nj => See Alb. njoh 'to know' as a PIE inherited
word
> > from an original PIE *gn-cluster
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> -
> > So the rule is : PIE *gn,*g'n > Early-PAlb *gn > PAlb. *nj > Alb
nj
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> -
> >
> > Basedd on this the zero-grade PIE *g'nh1- should have given
> PAlb/Alb.
> > *nj- that is not the case in your examples
> >
> > On the other hand the full IE form *g'enh1- 'beget' would gave
> PAlb
> > *dzen- > Albanian dhjen-/djen-
> >
> > Marius
> ************
> But, here we haven't to deal with *g'n, but with *g'n.H1, where *n.
> is syllabic nasal, that followed by *H1 have yielded -en, cf. also
> Alb qen 'dog' from *k'wn.-to: OE hund 'dog': MD hond 'dog' or *mn.-
> ti with Rasmussen remark that except *k'won we have also suffixed
> zero-grade form *k'wn.-to, attested in . Alb mend 'mind' etc.
>
> Konushevci


a) PIE n. > Alb a  (not /en/)
     Alb. mat 'bank , shore' < PIE *mn.-to (Lat. mo:ns 'mountain')

    so  *g'n.h1-to > *gent > etc.. is impossible

   The second argument for n. > a is that PIE *m. > Alb a too

(and the outputs of m. n. 'go together' in each IE Languages)


b) For *k'won 'dog', the zero-grade is *k'un- so there is no reason
to suppose the vocalization of n in k^un-to because we have a V-n-C
cluster: k'-u-n-t-

      so PIE *k^un-t-o (=> OE hund) => would gave Alb *thun/*thund
not qen that reflects VLat. cane (> Rom. c ^a n e)


c)  Related to mend : a PIE *mn.-t- would gave Alb. mat- as I show
above

However a full-grade  *men-ti would give Alb. mend

Unfortunately the attested forms reflects a zero-grade mn.-t-i- (Lith
mintis [PIE n. > Lith in), but a restauration of the full grade *men-
ti by analogy in Albanian is not impossible.

However Latin mentis (see Rom minte) would gave Alb mend without
issues, so Alb. mend is more probable a Latin loan too, as qen

Marius

--- In balkanika@yahoogroups.com, "alexandru_mg3"
<alexandru_mg3@...> wrote:
>
> --- In balkanika@yahoogroups.com, "Abdullah Konushevci"
> <akonushevci@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In balkanika@yahoogroups.com, "Abdullah Konushevci"
> > <akonushevci@> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In balkanika@yahoogroups.com, "Alvin Ekmekciu" <Ekmekciu@>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Correct me if I am wrong:
> > > >
> > > > Lat. genus > Alb. gjini (race, sex)
> > > > Lat. gentem > Alb. gjind (people)
> > > >
> > > > Alvin
> > > ************
> > > Historically speaking, you have right, see Meyer (EW, pp 141).
> > > Albanian Gheg gjini 'sex, kind, race' could be from Lat
genus, -
> > > eris 'race, kind', even phonetically speaking, due to e > i
> after -
> > > os, it is much closer to Greek genos 'race, family', both from
> > *genH-
> > > es-.
> > > Tosk variant gjiri speaks in favor of a loan from Latin or
Greek,
> > > but it has no other derivatives, so it could be a
hypercorrected
> > > form.
> > > Belonging to basic vocabulary, I doubt that it could be a
loan. I
> > > suspect that it could be from zero-grade form *g'n.H1-nt- >
PAlb
> > > *gent-, attested in Illyrian king's name Genthios 'procreator'
> and
> > > due to -eCC- > -iCC- we have final result gjini 'family, kind,
> > sex'
> > > from *g'n.H-nt-ia, cf. Nusja shkoi në gjini 'The bride gos to
her
> > > family', gjinia njerëzore 'humankind', gjin(d)
orja 'genitivus'.
> > Rom
> > > ginta 'nation, people, family' and Macedonian ginda, according
to
> > > Meyer, are loans from Albanian.
> > > Alb gjintë `people' with variants gjin(d)ja testifies of
gender
> > > change, but first is a neuter and second a feminine noun. So,
we
> > > have to deal with the same stem *g'n.H1-nt-, but extended with
> > > different suffixes –ia:, -ta:, -ya:, that provide different,
but
> > > close meanings.
> > Self-correction: zero-grade form *g'n.H1-t- instead of *g'n.H1-t-

> > (see Lat. gn.H-ti > gens (stem genti-, Greek genesis, etc.)
> > >
> > > Konushevci
> > >
> >
>
> Alb gjini is for sure a loan from Latin => Arguments:
> -----------------------------------------------------
>
> PIE *g'n merged together with PIE *gn in Early-PAlb *gn that
arrived
> next to PAlb nj => See Alb. njoh 'to know' as a PIE inherited word
> from an original PIE *gn-cluster
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> So the rule is : PIE *gn,*g'n > Early-PAlb *gn > PAlb. *nj > Alb nj
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>
> Basedd on this the zero-grade PIE *g'nh1- should have given
PAlb/Alb.
> *nj- that is not the case in your examples
>
> On the other hand the full IE form *g'enh1- 'beget' would gave
PAlb
> *dzen- > Albanian dhjen-/djen-
>
> Marius
************
But, here we haven't to deal with *g'n, but with *g'n.H1, where *n.
is syllabic nasal, that followed by *H1 have yielded -en, cf. also
Alb qen 'dog' from *k'wn.-to: OE hund 'dog': MD hond 'dog' or *mn.-
ti with Rasmussen remark that except *k'won we have also suffixed
zero-grade form *k'wn.-to, attested in . Alb mend 'mind' etc.

Konushevci

--- In balkanika@yahoogroups.com, "Abdullah Konushevci"
<akonushevci@...> wrote:
>
> --- In balkanika@yahoogroups.com, "Abdullah Konushevci"
> <akonushevci@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In balkanika@yahoogroups.com, "Alvin Ekmekciu" <Ekmekciu@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Correct me if I am wrong:
> > >
> > > Lat. genus > Alb. gjini (race, sex)
> > > Lat. gentem > Alb. gjind (people)
> > >
> > > Alvin
> > ************
> > Historically speaking, you have right, see Meyer (EW, pp 141).
> > Albanian Gheg gjini 'sex, kind, race' could be from Lat genus, -
> > eris 'race, kind', even phonetically speaking, due to e > i
after -
> > os, it is much closer to Greek genos 'race, family', both from
> *genH-
> > es-.
> > Tosk variant gjiri speaks in favor of a loan from Latin or Greek,
> > but it has no other derivatives, so it could be a hypercorrected
> > form.
> > Belonging to basic vocabulary, I doubt that it could be a loan. I
> > suspect that it could be from zero-grade form *g'n.H1-nt- > PAlb
> > *gent-, attested in Illyrian king's name Genthios 'procreator'
and
> > due to -eCC- > -iCC- we have final result gjini 'family, kind,
> sex'
> > from *g'n.H-nt-ia, cf. Nusja shkoi në gjini 'The bride gos to her
> > family', gjinia njerëzore 'humankind', gjin(d)orja 'genitivus'.
> Rom
> > ginta 'nation, people, family' and Macedonian ginda, according to
> > Meyer, are loans from Albanian.
> > Alb gjintë `people' with variants gjin(d)ja testifies of gender
> > change, but first is a neuter and second a feminine noun. So, we
> > have to deal with the same stem *g'n.H1-nt-, but extended with
> > different suffixes –ia:, -ta:, -ya:, that provide different, but
> > close meanings.
> Self-correction: zero-grade form *g'n.H1-t- instead of *g'n.H1-t-
> (see Lat. gn.H-ti > gens (stem genti-, Greek genesis, etc.)
> >
> > Konushevci
> >
>

Alb gjini is for sure a loan from Latin => Arguments:
-----------------------------------------------------

PIE *g'n merged together with PIE *gn in Early-PAlb *gn that arrived
next to PAlb nj => See Alb. njoh 'to know' as a PIE inherited word
from an original PIE *gn-cluster

--------------------------------------------------------------------
So the rule is : PIE *gn,*g'n > Early-PAlb *gn > PAlb. *nj > Alb nj
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Basedd on this the zero-grade PIE *g'nh1- should have given PAlb/Alb.
*nj- that is not the case in your examples

On the other hand the full IE form *g'enh1- 'beget' would gave PAlb
*dzen- > Albanian dhjen-/djen-

Marius

--- In balkanika@yahoogroups.com, "Abdullah Konushevci"
<akonushevci@...> wrote:
>
> --- In balkanika@yahoogroups.com, "Alvin Ekmekciu" <Ekmekciu@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Correct me if I am wrong:
> >
> > Lat. genus > Alb. gjini (race, sex)
> > Lat. gentem > Alb. gjind (people)
> >
> > Alvin
> ************
> Historically speaking, you have right, see Meyer (EW, pp 141).
> Albanian Gheg gjini 'sex, kind, race' could be from Lat genus, -
> eris 'race, kind', even phonetically speaking, due to e > i after -
> os, it is much closer to Greek genos 'race, family', both from
*genH-
> es-.
> Tosk variant gjiri speaks in favor of a loan from Latin or Greek,
> but it has no other derivatives, so it could be a hypercorrected
> form.
> Belonging to basic vocabulary, I doubt that it could be a loan. I
> suspect that it could be from zero-grade form *g'n.H1-nt- > PAlb
> *gent-, attested in Illyrian king's name Genthios 'procreator' and
> due to -eCC- > -iCC- we have final result gjini 'family, kind,
sex'
> from *g'n.H-nt-ia, cf. Nusja shkoi në gjini 'The bride gos to her
> family', gjinia njerëzore 'humankind', gjin(d)orja 'genitivus'.
Rom
> ginta 'nation, people, family' and Macedonian ginda, according to
> Meyer, are loans from Albanian.
> Alb gjintë `people' with variants gjin(d)ja testifies of gender
> change, but first is a neuter and second a feminine noun. So, we
> have to deal with the same stem *g'n.H1-nt-, but extended with
> different suffixes –ia:, -ta:, -ya:, that provide different, but
> close meanings.
Self-correction: zero-grade form *g'n.H1-t- instead of *g'n.H1-t-
(see Lat. gn.H-ti > gens (stem genti-, Greek genesis, etc.)
>
> Konushevci
>