Hi Mark, The longer you are in the fancy you will learn that most of the new
breeds of bantams that people make from the large fowl counterpart are going to
be a bit larger at first till a lot more people start working with them to
reduce their size. The Dark Egg breeds are a prime example of this. Their shape
is good, their color is excellent,and their size is a bit large. The breeders
should be worrying more about egg shell color than size at this time.

If you don't have the right shell color then it is going to be a bit hard to
convince a judge that your birds are the real item. The Blue egg and the Dark
Brown egg breeds have this added burden of having to conform to the standards as
well as laying an egg that also meets these standard requirements.

Another thing a Judge once told me was not to worry about getting the size down
so quickly and in the process lose the breed type. As the old show room saying
goes " Shape makes the breed and color makes the variety."  If you lose the
shape then the rest really doesn't mean much. All you have at that point is s
tiny chicken with a pretty color pattern and you have to start over from scratch
again unless you were wise enough not to get rid of all of your old over size
stock that had the proper type.

This is also why the old timers keep harping about retaining as much diversity
in the stock as possible. I have several sizes in most of my bantam lines and
especially in the LaFleche bantams. There are not many places I could go for
fresh blood that would be the equal of what I have right now.

People don't give it much thought but it is a good idea to keep a few over sized
pullets [of outstanding shape and color] around at all times. One day they might
have a bunch of hens dropping dead from being egg bound and they will find that
the larger pullets don't usually have this problem. This often happens when you
get your show bred bantam stock down to or a little below standard weights. That
is when you learn that super small size carries it's own set of hidden problems.

As far as the breeds that I like I find myself in a sorry situation.
I have seldom met a breed that I didn't like if it was well bred and in good
feather. I am also a sucker for anything that is extremely unique and useful at
the same time. That is why I have so many LaFleche, Crevecoeurs, and Naked Necks
at may place. They are rare because not many people like them and there are many
more who don't understand the importance of preserving them in their pure form.

The Naked Necks were almost extinct in their pure form because some people had
ideas that they could create something unique by crossing these odd balls with
other common breeds possesing other uncommon traits. It is rather neat to see
Silkie- Naked Neck crosses, Naked Neck - Frizzled Cochin crosses, and several
other unique crosses that result from such tinkering around. One day I woke up
to the fact that I hadn't seen a true Naked Neck of decent quality in a lot of
years. That was when I began a breeding program to recover their genetic traits
in their purest form before they were lost forever in this country. The stock
you find in the hatcheries and the preservation farms is not even close to the
old original Naked Necks or what the standards call for.

I doubt if there are more than 10 people who are breeding or showing the large
Crevecoeurs or trying to preserve them in any type of a serious manner. I am
trying to recover their former utility traits and it is not going to be an easy
task. I also have the Crevecoeur bantams in 4 colors and plan to be showing them
in the near future. Dean
-----------------------------------------------------------------

"MarkM" <mmontgomery@...> wrote:

Dean,
As always, good information.

I agree that the economy, higher prices, and aging breeders has cut into the
variety of bantams shown.  In fact there was a good OEG breeder near me (I got
my first birds from him) that just died and his daughter is getting rid of the
whole flock (I wish I was not so cramped with birds).  However, the fact that
more are competing in the breeds with lots of breeders affects the rarer breeds
and I feel that breeders are going to the more common bantams.  One case in
point, last year at this same show a Nankin breeder had a bunch of Nankins there
to show, but he was the only one and he said that was the first time that
happened and that if there were not more showing to have him compete against
them, he was not going to show his anymore.  I was there this time with your
Nankins hoping to see how they compared to his, but he was not there.

I will keep working with the bantams I like and show them too even though it is
a lot of work and I have to work even harder next time I show.  I like the
Welsummers, LaFleche, OEG, Seramas, and Nankins best.  I guess having 5 breeds I
like best is not really narrowing them much.  And if I had more Pyncheons, I
would put them on my list too. Mark in NC

Dean,

As always, good information.

I agree that the economy, higher prices, and aging breeders has cut into the
variety of bantams shown.  In fact there was a good OEG breeder near me (I got
my first birds from him) that just died and his daughter is getting rid of the
whole flock (I wish I was not so cramped with birds).  However, the fact that
more are competing in the breeds with lots of breeders affects the rarer breeds
and I feel that breeders are going to the more common bantams.  One case in
point, last year at this same show a Nankin breeder had a bunch of Nankins there
to show, but he was the only one and he said that was the first time that
happened and that if there were not more showing to have him compete against
them, he was not going to show his anymore.  I was there this time with your
Nankins hoping to see how they compared to his, but he was not there.

I will keep working with the bantams I like and show them too even though it is
a lot of work and I have to work even harder next time I show.  I like the
Welsummers, LaFleche, OEG, Seramas, and Nankins best.  I guess having 5 breeds I
like best is not really narrowing them much.  And if I had more Pyncheons, I
would put them on my list too.

Mark in NC

--- In bantamchickens@yahoogroups.com, "lafleche49" <hobbyguy@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Mark, I also get a lot of enjoyment out of my birds in my own back yard. I
also enjoy showing ocassionally to see where my birds rate
> in the general scheme of things. This is like a confirmation that what I am
doing has merit and that I am accomplishing something positive for the breed and
for posterity. [We can do all this and have a lot of fun at the same time].
>
> Not many of the back yard fanciers are aware that some of the people who
supply large groups of purebred chicks have never shown their birds but still
like to brag in their brochures that theirs are the best and the purest of these
rare breeds. I have been to a few of these preservation farms and can say first
hand that their stock is over rated and some of the customers that brag about
what they got from them, really don't know good poultry well enough to make such
a blanket statement. It is obvious that these are beginners that are overly
excited with what they got and showing their appreciation with free word of
mouth advertizing on the internet.
>
> Then one day they make the decision to show some of their fancy purebred fowl
and learn that some of these are nonstandard breeds that aren't as yet
recognized by either Association. They come home with nothing to show for their
efforts and are often broken and depressed by the experience. As a result they
often drop out within a short time never to raise poultry again.
>
> It is part of our duty as fanciers to talk with these new people at the shows
and to help them through these rough spots. In the beginning I was also taken to
the cleaners a few times and often by some of the supposed top breeders in the
country. I am tough skinned and recovered on my own and just wrote it off as
being had by a scam artist. I later gave these same scammers a lot of free
advertizing among the beginners which basicly cut their sales by half or better.
>
> I recently sold a new fancier a trio of my better young Nankins at a very
reasonable price. I also told him to avoid buying a lot of birds from many
different sources to prevent bringing in disease. I recommended that he buy
several settings of eggs from blood tested flocks which would greatly reduce the
chance of bringing in disease.
>
> That sale and conversation took place around August. Around the first week of
December I got a call from this same person who asked if I had any more Nankins
to spare because he wanted more. My reply was that he already had a decent start
and to just breed from those. That is when the truth came out. It seems that he
contacted another breeder of Nankins who convinced him that he had better stock
and was selling it much cheaper. [That was one of those deals that beginners
find hard to resist.] About a week after these super duper Nankins arrived
things started dieing. The main selling point on these birds was their extremely
small size. In all honestly he believed they were late hatched bantams that had
not received the best of care and was shorted on the feed.
>
> The Nankins he got were nothing but wimpy swap culls that were picked up by a
reseller and sold to him 10 birds for $100 plus shipping.
>
> The disease went through his tiny collection of birds until he only had one
Nankin pullet left and she was not out of my blood lines.  I told him I have
nothing for sale at this time but the truth is I don't want this person coming
to my place and possibly bringing in the same diseases that killed off his
flock. Understandably this is self preservation on my part and not being stingy
with anyone.
>
> Another reason that attendance and entries have dropped off at the shows is
because of the economy. Some people are out of work and hoping that their job
will take them back as soon as the economy picks up.
>
> In some places the price of feed is slightly high and this has caused a
further reduction of numbers kept by some active show breeders. This has led to
a resurgance of keep the best and eat the rest.
>
> Lastly a lot of people are getting older and find that they cannot care for
the large number of breeds they kept in the past. All of the above has really
hurt attendance in the show rooms this past season.
>
> There is a need for further efforts to save some of the rarer bantam breeds
that cannot be remade. The Welsummers, Barnvelders, and Marans are still
recognized by the ABA even though they were placed on the inactive list. A surge
in exhibitors in these breeds, a formation of a Dark Egg bantam breeders club,
and a few well written requests would go a long way in getting them and their
variety colors placed back in the standards again. In a few short years, when I
get a few things squared away, I plan to be among those who raise and show these
DB egg laying bantam breeds.
>
> Until things improve those who have these breeds should continue to raise,
improve, promote, and show a few of their best at every opportunity. Dean
>

Fern,

You were at my new coop and I had some bantam Marans roosters there.  Yes they
are large for bantams and my largest bantams, but then I went to a show in NC
and saw some standard Marans, and they were huge, so mine are bantams.  Now I
also have bantam Welsummers too and they are large for bantams, but nowhere near
as large as the Marans.  Now I need to work on size and at the same time I would
like to darken both their eggs.  They both lay darker brown eggs, but not as
dark as the standards of both types lay.

Two of the 5 fertile Serama/Pyncheon crossed chicks hatched.

Also, If your are just wanting fertile eggs I have over a dozen of fertile mixed
bantam eggs, some might be pure.

It is going to be a cold one tonight, but I winterized my coops some.

Mark in NC

--- In bantamchickens@yahoogroups.com, Butter Brown <butterflybrown77@...>
wrote:
>
>
> http://www.feathersite.com/Poultry/CGP/Penes/BRKPenes.html
>
>
>
> I recently bought 2 Penedesenca hens from someone who likes dark eggs.
>
>
>
> I was reluctant to buy them when I saw their white ears!!!!   To my surprise,
they lay a small very dark brown egg -- the darkness compares to my MARANS hens,
and is considerably darker than my rocks ever gave me.
>
>
>
> These hens are small -- it's like they are between a bantam and a standard
size.  I would like to find a rooster who is small and who also lays dark eggs. 
I'm in NC, if anyone has any ideas????  If I could find a Penedesenca roo that
would be great.
>
>
>
> I was wondering about the size of a bantam MARANS rooster.  How big are
they???  I've heard that Welsummer  eggs are pretty dark, but that even the
bantam Welsummer is a 'kind of' big size.
>
>
>
> The size of my Penedesenca hens is similiar to my Silkie hen.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Fern in NC
>
>
>

Hi Mark, I also get a lot of enjoyment out of my birds in my own back yard. I
also enjoy showing ocassionally to see where my birds rate
in the general scheme of things. This is like a confirmation that what I am
doing has merit and that I am accomplishing something positive for the breed and
for posterity. [We can do all this and have a lot of fun at the same time].

Not many of the back yard fanciers are aware that some of the people who supply
large groups of purebred chicks have never shown their birds but still like to
brag in their brochures that theirs are the best and the purest of these rare
breeds. I have been to a few of these preservation farms and can say first hand
that their stock is over rated and some of the customers that brag about what
they got from them, really don't know good poultry well enough to make such a
blanket statement. It is obvious that these are beginners that are overly
excited with what they got and showing their appreciation with free word of
mouth advertizing on the internet.

Then one day they make the decision to show some of their fancy purebred fowl
and learn that some of these are nonstandard breeds that aren't as yet
recognized by either Association. They come home with nothing to show for their
efforts and are often broken and depressed by the experience. As a result they
often drop out within a short time never to raise poultry again.

It is part of our duty as fanciers to talk with these new people at the shows
and to help them through these rough spots. In the beginning I was also taken to
the cleaners a few times and often by some of the supposed top breeders in the
country. I am tough skinned and recovered on my own and just wrote it off as
being had by a scam artist. I later gave these same scammers a lot of free
advertizing among the beginners which basicly cut their sales by half or better.

I recently sold a new fancier a trio of my better young Nankins at a very
reasonable price. I also told him to avoid buying a lot of birds from many
different sources to prevent bringing in disease. I recommended that he buy
several settings of eggs from blood tested flocks which would greatly reduce the
chance of bringing in disease.

That sale and conversation took place around August. Around the first week of
December I got a call from this same person who asked if I had any more Nankins
to spare because he wanted more. My reply was that he already had a decent start
and to just breed from those. That is when the truth came out. It seems that he
contacted another breeder of Nankins who convinced him that he had better stock
and was selling it much cheaper. [That was one of those deals that beginners
find hard to resist.] About a week after these super duper Nankins arrived
things started dieing. The main selling point on these birds was their extremely
small size. In all honestly he believed they were late hatched bantams that had
not received the best of care and was shorted on the feed.

The Nankins he got were nothing but wimpy swap culls that were picked up by a
reseller and sold to him 10 birds for $100 plus shipping.

The disease went through his tiny collection of birds until he only had one
Nankin pullet left and she was not out of my blood lines.  I told him I have
nothing for sale at this time but the truth is I don't want this person coming
to my place and possibly bringing in the same diseases that killed off his
flock. Understandably this is self preservation on my part and not being stingy
with anyone.

Another reason that attendance and entries have dropped off at the shows is
because of the economy. Some people are out of work and hoping that their job
will take them back as soon as the economy picks up.

In some places the price of feed is slightly high and this has caused a further
reduction of numbers kept by some active show breeders. This has led to a
resurgance of keep the best and eat the rest.

Lastly a lot of people are getting older and find that they cannot care for the
large number of breeds they kept in the past. All of the above has really hurt
attendance in the show rooms this past season.

There is a need for further efforts to save some of the rarer bantam breeds that
cannot be remade. The Welsummers, Barnvelders, and Marans are still recognized
by the ABA even though they were placed on the inactive list. A surge in
exhibitors in these breeds, a formation of a Dark Egg bantam breeders club, and
a few well written requests would go a long way in getting them and their
variety colors placed back in the standards again. In a few short years, when I
get a few things squared away, I plan to be among those who raise and show these
DB egg laying bantam breeds.

Until things improve those who have these breeds should continue to raise,
improve, promote, and show a few of their best at every opportunity. Dean
-------------------------------------------------------------------

"MarkM" <mmontgomery@...> wrote:
Dean,
Wow.  Thanks for the information.  It seems that backyard chicken keeping is
growing, but back yard fanciers don't show much and the serious breeders are
narrowing what they show.

I have bantam Marans and bantam Welsummers and I got some eggs in that could
have been bantam Barnevelders as they were from some barnevelder hens in a mixed
group.  However, the eggs were not as dark as the other two dark egger bantams
and they turned out to have been bred only with the very large standard feather
legged roo in the pen.  They were in small eggs and were hatched out by two OEG
bantam hens and ended up being almost ten times the size of the moms when they
were still bossing them around.  I gave them to a friend.
Mark in NC

Dean,

Wow.  Thanks for the information.  It seems that backyard chicken keeping is
growing, but back yard fanciers don't show much and the serious breeders are
narrowing what they show.

I have bantam Marans and bantam Welsummers and I got some eggs in that could
have been bantam Barnevelders as they were from some barnevelder hens in a mixed
group.  However, the eggs were not as dark as the other two dark egger bantams
and they turned out to have been bred only with the very large standard feather
legged roo in the pen.  They were in small eggs and were hatched out by two OEG
bantam hens and ended up being almost ten times the size of the moms when they
were still bossing them around.  I gave them to a friend.

Mark in NC

--- In bantamchickens@yahoogroups.com, "lafleche49" <hobbyguy@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Mark, The Pennes are doing fine at this time.
>
> Below are the breeds and varieties that have been placed on the inactive list
and published in the 2005 ABA standard. Dean
>
> Alsteirer
> Appenzeller Bearded
> Appenzeller Spitzhauben
> Aseel
> Barnvelder
> Brabanter
> Bresse
> Breda
> Catalina
> Brakel
> Chinese Langshan
> Creeper
> Dutch Bearded
> Dutch Owl Beard
> Erminette
> Fayoumi
> Frisian
> Ixworth
> Java
> Jersey Giant
> Ceylon Junglefowl
> Green Junglefowl
> Gray Junglefowl
> Kraienkoppe
> Lamona
> Maline
> Maran
> North Holland Blue
> Old English Pheasant
> Redcap
> Rhode Island White
> Rumpless Bantam
> Scots Gray
> Sumthaler
> Thuringer Bearded
> Watermael
> Welsummer
>
> [Color Patterns below]
> Barred as in Golden Penciled Frisian
> Barred as in silver penciled Frisian
> Barred as in Golden Cuckoo *
> Bared as in Silver Cuckoo *
> Blue Silver Wheaten
> Dark Black Breasted Red
> Double Laced *
> Erminette
> Golden Laced as in Old English Pheasant
> Green as in Green Junglefowl
> Gray as in Gray Junglefowl
> Light Brown as in Ceylon Junglefowl
> Silver Wheaten as in Silver Laced Old English Pheasant
> Spangled as in Redcap
> Splash Wheaten
>
> [Note the varieties marked with an * are
> all Dark Brown egg laying breed colors.]
> Also note that they axed the Barnvelders, Marans,
> and Welsummers all in one fell swoop. Didn't anyone
> bother to tell them that there are still a few
> breeders out here working on the dark brown egg
> laying bantams?
>
> The proper descriptions of the above can be
> ordered from:
> ABA
> P.O. Box 127
> Augusta, NJ 07822-0127
>

Hi Mark, The Pennes are doing fine at this time.

Below are the breeds and varieties that have been placed on the inactive list
and published in the 2005 ABA standard. Dean

Alsteirer
Appenzeller Bearded
Appenzeller Spitzhauben
Aseel
Barnvelder
Brabanter
Bresse
Breda
Catalina
Brakel
Chinese Langshan
Creeper
Dutch Bearded
Dutch Owl Beard
Erminette
Fayoumi
Frisian
Ixworth
Java
Jersey Giant
Ceylon Junglefowl
Green Junglefowl
Gray Junglefowl
Kraienkoppe
Lamona
Maline
Maran
North Holland Blue
Old English Pheasant
Redcap
Rhode Island White
Rumpless Bantam
Scots Gray
Sumthaler
Thuringer Bearded
Watermael
Welsummer

[Color Patterns below]
Barred as in Golden Penciled Frisian
Barred as in silver penciled Frisian
Barred as in Golden Cuckoo *
Bared as in Silver Cuckoo *
Blue Silver Wheaten
Dark Black Breasted Red
Double Laced *
Erminette
Golden Laced as in Old English Pheasant
Green as in Green Junglefowl
Gray as in Gray Junglefowl
Light Brown as in Ceylon Junglefowl
Silver Wheaten as in Silver Laced Old English Pheasant
Spangled as in Redcap
Splash Wheaten

[Note the varieties marked with an * are
all Dark Brown egg laying breed colors.]
Also note that they axed the Barnvelders, Marans,
and Welsummers all in one fell swoop. Didn't anyone
bother to tell them that there are still a few
breeders out here working on the dark brown egg
laying bantams?

The proper descriptions of the above can be
ordered from:
ABA
P.O. Box 127
Augusta, NJ 07822-0127
-------------------------------------------------------------------
"MarkM" <mmontgomery@...> wrote:
Dean, Speaking of Penns, how your dark eggers doing? LOL

So what other of the 34 bantams were placed on the inactive list?   Mark in NC
-------------------------------------------------------------------
The ABA recognizes a lot more bantams than they have listed in their standards
but few people are aware of this. Lately their standards committee decided to
drop several breeds from their published standard by placing them and a few
color patterns on the "inactive" list. This doesn't mean they are no longer
recognized, it just means that none have been shown in many years or possibly
never. To me this is dumping these breeds in the "out of sight out of mind
category" to slowly pass into oblivion.

34 bantam breeds, 3 junglefowl species, and 15 color varieties were placed on
the inactive list. The APA still recognizes all but the Marans. Dean

Fern,
(Butter Brown)

I candled my eggs today that are under two hens from that pen that has the
Serama hens and the Porcelain Pyncheon roo (had no place else to put him).  He
is doing his job as 5 of the 6 eggs are growing and should hatch next week (I
promised my wife that I would hatch no more in 2009).

So, I do not know what happened to the eggs I gave you.  I thought the Pyncheon
Serama pen were all done laying this season and then they laid that dozen I
saved for you, (but they are stale now).  They are really almost completely
stopped now as they only laid 3 total in the last two weeks.  If you still have
a broody hen and don't care what mix of eggs you get I have some hens in a mixed
bantam pen that are laying eggs (Easter Eggers, Seramas, Welsummers, and
Marans).

Let me know

Mark in NC

Charlotte,

Nice post.  I do not blame you for not wanting to show both birds and rabbits. 
It is a lot of work.  I have infected a few people with chicken flu since I
provide free advice and free birds. LOL  I just have not yet shared any rare
ones as I do not have that many yet.

Mark in NC

--- In bantamchickens@yahoogroups.com, Charlotte Ford <mtnlaurelrabbitry@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
>  I have been fascinated with your descriptions and musings of your
> experience at the chicken show, Mark. And for everyone's great
> responses, as well. Thanks for sharing.
>
>  We've been raising and showing rabbits, and for part of that time,
> guinea pigs, for many years, having started in 1981. And we have
> learned quite a lot, but are always open to new things as the learning
> never stops.
>
>  In the old days, more so than now, there were always rabbit
> exhibitors that also raised and showed chickens. I have known quite a
> lot of breeders in fact, so it was only a matter of time before
> someone we knew would tempt us a pair of show chickens.
>
>  Well, a friend of ours gave us a pair of OEG bantams and we put them
> in a large rabbit cage and the hen promptly laid four eggs and hatched
> them. As the chicks grew, I noticed that they seemed rather pretty and
> my husband got the hair brain idea that when they got old enough we
> should enter them in a chicken show and see how well they do.
>
>  Well, we knew nothing about how to show chickens but somehow, when
> the time came, we called in our entry of the four young birds, in our
> first chicken show, arrived that Saturday, got the birds tested, and
> cooped the bantams. It was there that we discovered that we had just
> walked into the fire! What we had entered was three OEG bantam White
> pullets and one OEG bantam white cockerel. The most intensively
> competitive breed and color of bantam we could have possibly started
> with!  At the show there were rows and rows of cages of little white
> OEG bantams, of all classes. And what we did was add three more to the
> already very large class of OEG bantam white pullets. So, the game was
> afoot!
>
>  Of course, our cockerel was not dubbed so that was going to be rather
> a wash. But our infectious laughter at our own ignorance softened the
> mood of the scowling purists and they became really very nice to us.
> Explaining why it was now too late to cut the cockerel, among other
> things, the OEG exhibitors were very patient and helpful with their
> advice to us. And we listened as it was a lot of fun to learn the
> subtle tricks of the trade of yet another species of exhibition animals.
>
>  As the day wore on, we milled and talked and shared the similarities
> and differences of the current chicken show with our long experience
> of rabbit shows with our new friends and waited for the judging.
>
>  In the end, the judge, of course, penalized our cockerel for not
> being dubbed but added "too bad, he's a very nice cockerel," so we
> were very pleased.
>
>  Of our pullets, they shocked us and all, I am sure, by their very
> high placements. They were all in the top ten, with something like
> 7th, 5th and 3rd and our new friends were very nice about that, too!
>
>  I couldn't help feeling that showing that un-dubbed cockerel was such
> a green horn thing to do that it tickled the competitors so, that they
> just couldn't help feeling sorry for us and treating us better than if
> we had shown up, obviously green, but expecting, arrogantly, to
> conquer the day.
>
>  Anyway, it was a long and fascinating day, but we did observe that it
> was far too much like the rabbit shows and this in some measure doomed
> us not to become chicken exhibitors. It was bad enough that so much of
> our resources and time went into raising and showing rabbits that we
> realized we just didn't have enough energy to devote to exhibiting
> chickens, as well. So, that was that.
>
>  Interesting that the National poultry clubs struggle with many of the
> same issues that confront the American Rabbit Breeders Association.
> For years, many breeders have complained that we do not need more
> breeds or varieties of rabbits and that the association should shut
> the door to any more being admitted into the Standard of Perfection.
> Well, the ARBA wisely decided not to do that but instead set up a
> rigorous set of rules and procedures for how breeders can get their
> new breeds and varieties excepted, and that is the situation we have
> today.
>
>  My feeling is this: new breeds and varieties actually add new people
> to the fancy. They don't take anyone away from any of the older breeds
> as the new breeders of the newer breeds wouldn't have raised them
> anyway. People's likes and dislikes are very subjective. We simply
> like or love the things we like or love. People who think Holland Lops
> are the loveliest things on earth, aren't likely to be talked into
> raising New Zealand Whites. If they prefer the way Holland Lops look,
> that is what they are going to like, especially, if they must trudge
> out to the rabbitry come rain or snow, etc. 24/7, they need to really
> love the animals they keep. So, if there are no Holland Lops, they
> just don't raise rabbits. My suspicion is that much would be the same
> for chicken breeds and varieties. So, there is really no reason not to
> allow new breeds and varieties.
>
>  My husband raises two of the most popular breeds of rabbit there is:
> Netherland Dwarfs and Holland Lops. I, on the other hand, raise one,
> middle of the road in popularity, but one of the oldest breeds of
> rabbit and that is the Himalayan rabbit breed. I also raise the oldest
> breed of rabbit and that is the Silver and the oldest breed of bantam,
> the Nankin bantam. I can't help it. I love the way they look and
> behave. They are lovely. That is all there is to it.
>
>  It also happens to be a good thing that I love the Silver rabbits and
> the Nankin bantams as both these breeds are rare and in danger of
> extinction, needing more breeders to keep them.
>
>  One last thing. It was a great thing for Mark to show his rarer
> breeds and varieties of chickens as how else will people, who might
> think they are the coolest things they have ever seen, find out about
> them? Don't despair. I just got one new breeder of Nankins started and
> one new breeder of Silver rabbits started. How cool is that?
>
>  Thanks for your patience in reading this long post.
>
>  Wishing you a super day!-Charlotte
>

Hi,

	 I have been fascinated with your descriptions and musings of your
experience at the chicken show, Mark. And for everyone’s great
responses, as well. Thanks for sharing.

	 We've been raising and showing rabbits, and for part of that time,
guinea pigs, for many years, having started in 1981. And we have
learned quite a lot, but are always open to new things as the learning
never stops.

	 In the old days, more so than now, there were always rabbit
exhibitors that also raised and showed chickens. I have known quite a
lot of breeders in fact, so it was only a matter of time before
someone we knew would tempt us a pair of show chickens.

	 Well, a friend of ours gave us a pair of OEG bantams and we put them
in a large rabbit cage and the hen promptly laid four eggs and hatched
them. As the chicks grew, I noticed that they seemed rather pretty and
my husband got the hair brain idea that when they got old enough we
should enter them in a chicken show and see how well they do.

	 Well, we knew nothing about how to show chickens but somehow, when
the time came, we called in our entry of the four young birds, in our
first chicken show, arrived that Saturday, got the birds tested, and
cooped the bantams. It was there that we discovered that we had just
walked into the fire! What we had entered was three OEG bantam White
pullets and one OEG bantam white cockerel. The most intensively
competitive breed and color of bantam we could have possibly started
with!  At the show there were rows and rows of cages of little white
OEG bantams, of all classes. And what we did was add three more to the
already very large class of OEG bantam white pullets. So, the game was
afoot!

	 Of course, our cockerel was not dubbed so that was going to be rather
a wash. But our infectious laughter at our own ignorance softened the
mood of the scowling purists and they became really very nice to us.
Explaining why it was now too late to cut the cockerel, among other
things, the OEG exhibitors were very patient and helpful with their
advice to us. And we listened as it was a lot of fun to learn the
subtle tricks of the trade of yet another species of exhibition animals.

	 As the day wore on, we milled and talked and shared the similarities
and differences of the current chicken show with our long experience
of rabbit shows with our new friends and waited for the judging.

	 In the end, the judge, of course, penalized our cockerel for not
being dubbed but added "too bad, he's a very nice cockerel," so we
were very pleased.

	 Of our pullets, they shocked us and all, I am sure, by their very
high placements. They were all in the top ten, with something like
7th, 5th and 3rd and our new friends were very nice about that, too!

	 I couldn't help feeling that showing that un-dubbed cockerel was such
a green horn thing to do that it tickled the competitors so, that they
just couldn't help feeling sorry for us and treating us better than if
we had shown up, obviously green, but expecting, arrogantly, to
conquer the day.

	 Anyway, it was a long and fascinating day, but we did observe that it
was far too much like the rabbit shows and this in some measure doomed
us not to become chicken exhibitors. It was bad enough that so much of
our resources and time went into raising and showing rabbits that we
realized we just didn't have enough energy to devote to exhibiting
chickens, as well. So, that was that.

	 Interesting that the National poultry clubs struggle with many of the
same issues that confront the American Rabbit Breeders Association.
For years, many breeders have complained that we do not need more
breeds or varieties of rabbits and that the association should shut
the door to any more being admitted into the Standard of Perfection.
Well, the ARBA wisely decided not to do that but instead set up a
rigorous set of rules and procedures for how breeders can get their
new breeds and varieties excepted, and that is the situation we have
today.

	 My feeling is this: new breeds and varieties actually add new people
to the fancy. They don't take anyone away from any of the older breeds
as the new breeders of the newer breeds wouldn't have raised them
anyway. People's likes and dislikes are very subjective. We simply
like or love the things we like or love. People who think Holland Lops
are the loveliest things on earth, aren't likely to be talked into
raising New Zealand Whites. If they prefer the way Holland Lops look,
that is what they are going to like, especially, if they must trudge
out to the rabbitry come rain or snow, etc. 24/7, they need to really
love the animals they keep. So, if there are no Holland Lops, they
just don't raise rabbits. My suspicion is that much would be the same
for chicken breeds and varieties. So, there is really no reason not to
allow new breeds and varieties.

	 My husband raises two of the most popular breeds of rabbit there is:
Netherland Dwarfs and Holland Lops. I, on the other hand, raise one,
middle of the road in popularity, but one of the oldest breeds of
rabbit and that is the Himalayan rabbit breed. I also raise the oldest
breed of rabbit and that is the Silver and the oldest breed of bantam,
the Nankin bantam. I can't help it. I love the way they look and
behave. They are lovely. That is all there is to it.

	 It also happens to be a good thing that I love the Silver rabbits and
the Nankin bantams as both these breeds are rare and in danger of
extinction, needing more breeders to keep them.

	 One last thing. It was a great thing for Mark to show his rarer
breeds and varieties of chickens as how else will people, who might
think they are the coolest things they have ever seen, find out about
them? Don't despair. I just got one new breeder of Nankins started and
one new breeder of Silver rabbits started. How cool is that?

	 Thanks for your patience in reading this long post.

	 Wishing you a super day!-Charlotte

Dean,

Good advice and I will have to do that.  However, I do not get as much pleasure
out of showing as I do just having the birds.  Showing and making sure you have
nice birds that place well takes lots of time.  I may just make the effort on
just a couple of breeds until I buy a bigger place and build some more coops.

Mark in NC

--- In bantamchickens@yahoogroups.com, "lafleche49" <hobbyguy@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Mark, I separated your posting to make addressing it easier.
>
> Showing is not only time consuming but there are also a lot of things the
average exhibitor will never learn as far as what is allowed and what is added
show prep. I learned an encyclopedia worth of slick tricks from the old timers
of the last generation of master exhibitors. I prefer not to use them and show
my birds as natural as possible with only a good wash and thorough drying.
>
> It might not have been feather mites that broke the end off the feather. Often
when birds are not separated for show to keep their plumage nice other birds
will often snip off or pluck out a few feathers and ruin them for show. Been
there, seen that.
>
> A good rule to follow is to dust everything on the place 2 times per year for
lice and mites. Worm no less than 2 times per year, Preferrably in the late fall
[right now is good] and again in the early spring before you start collecting
eggs to hatch.
>
> Show birds need to be dusted for lice about once per month or every 45 days at
the least. If you wash a bird with the original Dawn dish soap there won't be a
need to delouse those birds because the soap cuts the grease as well as the glue
that holds the louse eggs to the feather shafts. You get to throw the nits out
with the bath water. Washing the shanks of your birds ocassionally with Dawn and
warm water also keeps the scaley leg mites at bay. Dean
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> "MarkM" <mmontgomery@> wrote:
> It was only in showing that I have learned some more things and that makes me
realize that it is really hard and time consuming to do a good job showing
birds.
>
> And I had no idea that there were even such things as feather mites that cut
feathers off and that there was a critical time to treat the new birds.  I knew
there were leg mites and mites and other bugs that prey on the birds that need
to be treated.
> Mark in NC
>

Dean,

Wow, that is very interesting, and as usual lots of good information.  Thanks
for the encouragement.  I guess I won't give up showing, but it is more work
that I anticipated.  I have to keep them clean and not just try to clean them up
just before the show.  I have to prepare even more to make sure I have no cut
feathers and keep the ones I want to show in separated cleaner less crowded
pens.  Speaking of Penns, how your dark eggers doing? LOL

So, the bantam Welsummers were accepted by the ABA and put on inactive status
like the Marans?  This last spring the ABA published the old standard for the
bantam Marans in their quarterly publication.  That was cool.  I am probably the
only one in the U.S. that showed any bantam Marans last year or this year. 
Probably the same with bantam Welsummers.

Of all of the eggs I got from you the biggest surprise was how much I like the
bantam LaFleche.  They are such nice birds and even more friendly than the
Nankins and Mille Fleurs from your eggs.  My only LaFleche pullet even flies
onto my back or shoulder when I am not looking.

Maybe what I need to do is get some of my strange breeds to the State fair where
their uniqueness would be more appreciated by the public and not so much at
these local shows.  The thing is I will have to get space to have these things
isolated and quarantined cause I can't just take them out for a week and expect
them to be accepted back into their pen and they are more likely to get
something a week at the fair.

I too like lots of things, but just bantams.  So what other of the 34 bantams
were placed on the inactive list?  Maybe I have some of them and can show.

Mark in NC

--- In bantamchickens@yahoogroups.com, "lafleche49" <hobbyguy@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Mark, You know better than most that I am not a person that blindly follows
the pack and needs to be accepted by those who raise the most common types of
bantams [or other fowl] shown.
>
> If it weren't for people like us who keep the super rares [in your
> case the Marans, Welsummer,and the rare color varieties of
> Australorp bantams] [In my case LaFleche, Crevecoeur, and Catalina bantams]
the shows would be mighty dull places indeed. Variety is the spice of life and
in no place is this more evident than at our poultry shows.
>
> The ABA recognizes a lot more bantams than they have listed in their standards
but few people are aware of this. Lately their standards committee decided to
drop several breeds from their published standard by placing them and a few
color patterns on the "inactive" list. This doesn't mean they are no longer
recognized, it just means that none have been shown in many years or possibly
never. To me this is dumping these breeds in the "out of sight out of mind
category" to slowly pass into oblivion.
>
> I am sure that the people who decided to do this were also people who raised
nothing but the more common breeds. Short sightedness is something that causes
things to go extinct or prevents people from keeping them in the first place.
>
> I have often wondered that in the future if the ABA standard will be as thin
as the Book of Bantams and only have descriptions for a half dozen breeds with
two or three varieties in each.
>
> This is evidently the attitude and desire of more than a few. I hear it all
the time at the shows and read it on the internet where someone writes that they
wish that people would quit making new color varieties and fooling around with
creating- recreating bantams in the extinct or near extinct minor breeds and
concentrate their efforts and energies on the originals and the established
breeds. We hear these people called by the name of "purists" but in reality what
they have has been outcrossed and "improved" more than a few times in their
breed history and aren't "as pure" as they would like us to believe. The only
pure chickens are the Jungle fowl and some of those are questionable.
>
> In short if you are the only person in the world that raises uncommon
Frizzles, odd colored Sultans, or any one of my 18 non standard colors of La
Fleche bantams don't let anyone sway you or talk you into giving them up. For
almost 30 years Duane Urch and Dr Albert McGraw were about the only people in
the United States and Canada who were raising and ocassionally showing the large
fowl Javas.
>
> Today there is a new generation of breeders that are keeping this breed that
has held on by the tips of it's toe nails from the 1860s till the present day.
If not for a few dedicated preservationist breeders the Javas would have gone
the way of the Lamonas a long time ago. They were once very popular, very
common, and were one of the original base breeds for creating most of the
American dual purpose breeds. At one time there were a few Java bantams but they
were not well accepted and went extinct within a short span of time.
>
> Like you I also show a few Naked Neck Bantams every time I attend my local
shows. I do this to let others know that at least one person is keeping them
alive and that there is still a few decent quality birds left that haven't been
crossed up with everything under the sun. I was the only Naked Neck exhibitor at
a show I attended in 2004. The following year there were 3 more exhibitors and 3
more birds entered, for a total of 4 Bantam NNS and 0 large fowl. I hope to be
back in the show room in 2010 and I will deffinately bring along a few more NNs
to keep things interesting.
>
> I have never met a breed that I didn't like [and this is probably why my feed
bills are so high and I have no free time]. LOL  One day when one of your
outstanding birds takes it's class and ends up on champion row then some of
these scoffers and popular breed keepers will break ranks and join you in
friendly competition.
>
> The large fowl Welsummers weren't an over night sensation when they first
arrived in America and now it is time that the bantams have to face the same
scrutiny. Hopefully in a few years they will have a large following too.
>
> As a foot note to my ramblings the Welsummer Bantam, Marans Bantam, Java
Bantam, and the Catalina bantam were 4 of those breeds placed on the ABA
inactive list in 2005. [34 bantam breeds, 3 junglefowl species, and 15 color
varieties were placed on the inactive list.] The APA still recognizes all but
the Marans. Dean
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> "MarkM" <mmontgomery@> wrote:
> Fern,
> It was not that they were mean per se; it was just that if they were not of
the breed with lots of competition like OE Games and Modern Games, they did not
seem to think it worth their time to even look at them.  It was a joke that
anyone brought in birds other than the couple that had lots of competition. 
When the judges were on the OEG birds rows, all the breeders would just stand
and oogle the judges across on the next isle as they judged the birds, but on
the others, these guys just sat and waited.  Now, I really like OEG and the
Modern Games myself, but not exclusively like these guys do.
> Mark in NC
>

Hi Mark, I separated your posting to make addressing it easier.

Showing is not only time consuming but there are also a lot of things the
average exhibitor will never learn as far as what is allowed and what is added
show prep. I learned an encyclopedia worth of slick tricks from the old timers
of the last generation of master exhibitors. I prefer not to use them and show
my birds as natural as possible with only a good wash and thorough drying.

It might not have been feather mites that broke the end off the feather. Often
when birds are not separated for show to keep their plumage nice other birds
will often snip off or pluck out a few feathers and ruin them for show. Been
there, seen that.

A good rule to follow is to dust everything on the place 2 times per year for
lice and mites. Worm no less than 2 times per year, Preferrably in the late fall
[right now is good] and again in the early spring before you start collecting
eggs to hatch.

Show birds need to be dusted for lice about once per month or every 45 days at
the least. If you wash a bird with the original Dawn dish soap there won't be a
need to delouse those birds because the soap cuts the grease as well as the glue
that holds the louse eggs to the feather shafts. You get to throw the nits out
with the bath water. Washing the shanks of your birds ocassionally with Dawn and
warm water also keeps the scaley leg mites at bay. Dean
-------------------------------------------------------------------
"MarkM" <mmontgomery@...> wrote:
It was only in showing that I have learned some more things and that makes me
realize that it is really hard and time consuming to do a good job showing
birds.

And I had no idea that there were even such things as feather mites that cut
feathers off and that there was a critical time to treat the new birds.  I knew
there were leg mites and mites and other bugs that prey on the birds that need
to be treated.
Mark in NC

Hi Mark, You know better than most that I am not a person that blindly follows
the pack and needs to be accepted by those who raise the most common types of
bantams [or other fowl] shown.

If it weren't for people like us who keep the super rares [in your
case the Marans, Welsummer,and the rare color varieties of
Australorp bantams] [In my case LaFleche, Crevecoeur, and Catalina bantams] the
shows would be mighty dull places indeed. Variety is the spice of life and in no
place is this more evident than at our poultry shows.

The ABA recognizes a lot more bantams than they have listed in their standards
but few people are aware of this. Lately their standards committee decided to
drop several breeds from their published standard by placing them and a few
color patterns on the "inactive" list. This doesn't mean they are no longer
recognized, it just means that none have been shown in many years or possibly
never. To me this is dumping these breeds in the "out of sight out of mind
category" to slowly pass into oblivion.

I am sure that the people who decided to do this were also people who raised
nothing but the more common breeds. Short sightedness is something that causes
things to go extinct or prevents people from keeping them in the first place.

I have often wondered that in the future if the ABA standard will be as thin as
the Book of Bantams and only have descriptions for a half dozen breeds with two
or three varieties in each.

This is evidently the attitude and desire of more than a few. I hear it all the
time at the shows and read it on the internet where someone writes that they
wish that people would quit making new color varieties and fooling around with
creating- recreating bantams in the extinct or near extinct minor breeds and
concentrate their efforts and energies on the originals and the established
breeds. We hear these people called by the name of "purists" but in reality what
they have has been outcrossed and "improved" more than a few times in their
breed history and aren't "as pure" as they would like us to believe. The only
pure chickens are the Jungle fowl and some of those are questionable.

In short if you are the only person in the world that raises uncommon Frizzles,
odd colored Sultans, or any one of my 18 non standard colors of La Fleche
bantams don't let anyone sway you or talk you into giving them up. For almost 30
years Duane Urch and Dr Albert McGraw were about the only people in the United
States and Canada who were raising and ocassionally showing the large fowl
Javas.

Today there is a new generation of breeders that are keeping this breed that has
held on by the tips of it's toe nails from the 1860s till the present day. If
not for a few dedicated preservationist breeders the Javas would have gone the
way of the Lamonas a long time ago. They were once very popular, very common,
and were one of the original base breeds for creating most of the American dual
purpose breeds. At one time there were a few Java bantams but they were not well
accepted and went extinct within a short span of time.

Like you I also show a few Naked Neck Bantams every time I attend my local
shows. I do this to let others know that at least one person is keeping them
alive and that there is still a few decent quality birds left that haven't been
crossed up with everything under the sun. I was the only Naked Neck exhibitor at
a show I attended in 2004. The following year there were 3 more exhibitors and 3
more birds entered, for a total of 4 Bantam NNS and 0 large fowl. I hope to be
back in the show room in 2010 and I will deffinately bring along a few more NNs
to keep things interesting.

I have never met a breed that I didn't like [and this is probably why my feed
bills are so high and I have no free time]. LOL  One day when one of your
outstanding birds takes it's class and ends up on champion row then some of
these scoffers and popular breed keepers will break ranks and join you in
friendly competition.

The large fowl Welsummers weren't an over night sensation when they first
arrived in America and now it is time that the bantams have to face the same
scrutiny. Hopefully in a few years they will have a large following too.

As a foot note to my ramblings the Welsummer Bantam, Marans Bantam, Java Bantam,
and the Catalina bantam were 4 of those breeds placed on the ABA inactive list
in 2005. [34 bantam breeds, 3 junglefowl species, and 15 color varieties were
placed on the inactive list.] The APA still recognizes all but the Marans. Dean
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"MarkM" <mmontgomery@...> wrote:
Fern,
It was not that they were mean per se; it was just that if they were not of the
breed with lots of competition like OE Games and Modern Games, they did not seem
to think it worth their time to even look at them.  It was a joke that anyone
brought in birds other than the couple that had lots of competition.  When the
judges were on the OEG birds rows, all the breeders would just stand and oogle
the judges across on the next isle as they judged the birds, but on the others,
these guys just sat and waited.  Now, I really like OEG and the Modern Games
myself, but not exclusively like these guys do.
Mark in NC

Donna,

I have been to lots of shows and thought I knew tons about chickens.  Well I do,
but not so much that I can really tell a big difference between two bird of my
same breed.  It was only in showing that I have learned some more things and
that makes me realize that it is really hard and time consuming to do a good job
showing birds.  And I had no idea that there were even such things as feather
mites that cut feathers off and that there was a critical time to treat the new
birds.  I knew there were leg mites and mites and other bugs that prey on the
birds that need to be treated.

Mark in NC

--- In bantamchickens@yahoogroups.com, Donna Carkin <sunsetcreekfarm@...> wrote:
>
>  I'm considering showing my chickens for the first time in 2010.  I'm going
> to the
> Northeast Poultry Congress just to "watch / learn" in January.
>
> I'll never forget my first goat show.  I did a terrible job of clipping.
> I overheard one of the competitors say "I think those goats have manage".
>
> I was upset that someone would say such a thing and not even have the
> courtesy to speak with me.
> I was brand new to the "show circuit" and I almost quit that day.  Everyone
> seemed to have their
> "clicks" and I was the newbie.
>
> Lesson learned: visit shows before you attend your first show AND don't clip
> your goats the day before the show; especially if you have no idea what
> you're doing. :)
>

Fern,

It was not that they were mean per se; it was just that if they were not of the
breed with lots of competition like OE Games and Modern Games, they did not seem
to think it worth their time to even look at them.  It was a joke that anyone
brought in birds other than the couple that had lots of competition.  When the
judges were on the OEG birds rows, all the breeders would just stand and oogle
the judges across on the next isle as they judged the birds, but on the others,
these guys just sat and waited.  Now, I really like OEG and the Modern Games
myself, but not exclusively like these guys do.

Mark in NC

--- In bantamchickens@yahoogroups.com, Butter Brown <butterflybrown77@...>
wrote:
>
>
> I used to breed Birman cats, and until you were well established in showing
and breeding, everyone seemed to think it was OK to take pot shots at the 'new
kid on the block', just as you described.  So it's probably the same with
showing chickens -- for your first few shows, try to hook up with someone whose
been showing for awhile, and that will give you a little bit of protection from
the ole meanies .
>
>
>
> Fern in NC
>
>

Yesterday (Nov 28) I took 20 of my bantams to a poultry show in Winston-Salem,
NC sponsored by the Forsyth Fowl Fanciers club.  I took eight bantam Welsummers
(2 Partridge cockerels, 2 Silver Duckwing cockerels, 2 Golden Hackle cockerels,
and 2 Partridge pullets); four Old English Game (OEG) pullets (2 Self Blue and 2
Mille Fleur); three Seramas; two Nankin cockerels (1 rose comb and 1 single
comb); one Naked Neck cockerel; one Cuckoo Marans pullet; and one LaFleche
cockerel: 13 varieties and 7 breeds.  The Nankins, OEGbs, NN, and LaFleche were
all from eggs I got from Dean this year.

Lots of what I brought are not accepted approved breeds in the American Bantam
Association (ABA) and cannot win anything past its breed or variety and win a
whole class and get a trophy or grand champion.  I brought them to just let
folks see something different and to get some good experience.  All but the 1 RC
Nankin, 2 Mille Fleur, and Seramas were the only ones of their kind there, so of
course each took best in variety (BV), reserve variety (RV 2nd place of
variety), best in breed (BB), and/or reserve breed (RB 2nd place of breed). 
They had a whole section for Naked Necks with a nice wooden sign and all, but
mine was the only one, large fowl (LF) or bantam.  There were some other Marans
there, but they were all LF and even though my Marans are my largest bantams, I
really realized they are bantams.

Of the 8 bantam Welsummers I took, one pullet won the BB (#1 of 8) and one
partridge cockerel took the RB (#2 of 8).  They got looked at and judged this
time, so I can see which was the best and try to see why.  Since there were
tones of OEG bantams there, the two Self Blue pullets only got BV and RV and
nothing in the breed.  There were a couple other Seramas there, and one of my
hens took RB.  My RC Nankin took 2nd, but there was only one other RC Nankin
cockerel, LOL.  Last year a breeder brought a bunch of Nankins, but his were the
only ones there last year and he did not think he was going to bother if there
was no competition and he was not there at this show.

There were lots of OEG Mille Fleur pullets, but one of mine took 4th even though
"COND" was noted on her card.  I asked the club secretary what that meant and he
checked the bird over and said that since she had the end of one of her tail
feathers cut off that she would have placed higher but for the defect.

This is only my second show I have ever shown at (did the same show last year
with 5 birds).  I am learning a lot.  It took tons of time getting these ready
for the show, cleaning things and checking out which ones I wanted to take and
then modifying transportations pens to get them there as I don't have the fancy
transportation pens the professionals have, and still there is lots more I
should have done.  I learned that the Mille Fleur pullet with the cut feather
probably had it happen at 4 months old by feather mites and that to prevent such
a thing, I need to start dipping my birds at 15 weeks old and maybe so once a
week for a while and to dust my show pens often.  And that I should keep each
show bird separated from all others in clean pine shavings during the 3 month
show season.  I do not have that kind of time, so I do not think I am cut out to
do much showing, maybe one or two breeds, but not lots of things just for folks
to see them, unless I do some for the state fair.  And it was a long day as I
drove 2 hours to get there at 7am and the judging was not done until 3pm.

Also, I am not sure if what I did was scoffed at by the chicken men that are
"real" showmen that are "serious" breeders (the OEG folks), but I heard one of
them with a group of buddies ask the judge as he walked by, "are you done
judging the Seramas and Naked Necks yet?" and then they all cracked up laughing.

Mark in NC

Donna,

(still too busy to get on much) In addition to the feed question.  About the
chicks comment.

Yes, it is crazy this time of year to have chicks, especially in MA.  My friend
had one of his bantam Easter Eggers show up in December in North Carolina with a
bunch of chicks.  He free ranged them all at the time (until they all got eaten
by predators) so these chicks were very exposed and would not have survived at
his place.  He gave them to me and I put the hen and chicks in a chicken tractor
with one of those brooder lights to help and they all grew to adults (only 60
watts for supplemental light so they can see to eat 24/7 and stay warm longer
out from under the hen).

I had another friend borrow two of my Seramas to hatch 11 chicks from a new
breed of bantams he is working on (a head start for next year).  They hatched a
month ago and he had the two hens and 11 chicks in a small pen with a light (60
watt like above) and then after two weeks he turned the light off and that night
2 chicks died, so he turned it back on and they are doing well.

Good luck.

Mark in NC

--- In bantamchickens@yahoogroups.com, Donna Carkin <sunsetcreekfarm@...> wrote:
>
> Good idea -- I forgot all about those being available.
>
> On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 9:30 AM, Tara <kidntyme@...> wrote:
>
>> > Try layer crumbles instead of layer pelets.
> >
> >  ------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> > Also, my dutch bantam hen has some new chicks as of last night.  She's been
> > hiding this clutch behind the hay bales.  Last night I heard the peeping
> > during feeding time.
> > What was she thinking have chicks this time of year; especially in MA???
> > ;)
> >
> > Donna
>

Ok here we go again. i lost the guys email that has them and am going nuts tryin
to find some birds for my hubby's flock. please if you know anyone who has them
please get ahold of me, i wan to get him a trio for christmas.

Hi Mark, I had book marked the free book from one of the anti NAIS sites. The
author is a PHd and wasn't interested in reaping any profits from the sale of
the book. He wanted it diseminated among the poultry and livestock breeders in
this country to let them know what was really going on. The printed editions
that were and are sold,the proceeds were given to an appropriate charity.

I found that if I put on my thinking cap and start looking for the things that
affect me personally, or can affect all of humanity if #1 the Mega Ari-corps are
allowed to destroy all of the privately owned flocks by having them wiped off
the earth. Or #2 they are allowed to become a total monopoly as a world food
producer and their genetic base collapses from inbreeding or from a disease
outbreak. This quickly takes on a gloom and doom type scenario of which the
elected government employees of the U.S. and Canada have obviously backed the
wrong side. They are either agriculture stupid, getting major cash kick backs,
or haven't a clue what will happen if the genetic base goes all to heck and
collapses. [I choose answer #3 all of the above.]

With all livestock and poultry enterprises BIGGER is seldom better and over
crowded is deffinately a precursor to a major outbreak of disease. All of the
major poultry breeding farms, broiler farms, turkey growing farms, etc. are
completely and always under staffed and as a result there is nobody paying any
attention to fine details. Birds look wimpy all the time from lack of natural
light and when they suddenly die they are rarely ever taken off farm for an
autopsy to find out the cause.

When a dozen birds die nobody gets excited. When 100 birds die it may still not
stir anyone to action. When 1000 birds die in a single 24 hour period then is
when the Veteranarians are called in and the news is usually severe. The sorry
part about a government intervention to depopulate one of these huge Commercial
poultry farms is that it is the average middle class tax payers and consumer
that foot the bill to clean up this mess and to reimburse the owner[s] for their
losses. That's right, they get to file a claim for losses, for the cost of
hiring clean up crews, dip into the public till and get reimbursed for those
losses! The rest of you can't even get insurance on your poultry but these
corporate farms get free welfare from the people and a do over from the national
treasury in the form of a giant subsidy check.

These corporate farms are usually operated by no more than 3 workers and these
are more often than not Illegal foreign workers that get paid minimum wage or
less. The ratio of people to chickens is around 1 to 50,000. The average egg
producing farm of the 1960s was one person to 600 or less birds that were ran on
free range every day. [I get my eggs from a similar free range set up but with a
few less birds in my own yards].

I also have my birds tested every year by the NPIP, a department of the USDA. If
the government comes out to depopulate my farm I get to put in a claim for every
bird, every chick, and every egg they destroy at replacement costs. [Just like
the big boys] Dean
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"MarkM" <mmontgomery@...> wrote:
Dean,
Your e-mail was a very good read, but I just saw the topic and started to read
without seeing who it was from.  Part way through I thought, "wow, this is very
informative like Dean's posts" and then I saw that it was one in the same.  LOL 
Good to hear you are on.  I will go look at the book now.
Mark in NC

In bantamchickens@yahoogroups.com, "lafleche49" <hobbyguy@> wrote:

Hi All, This book has been on the internet for quite some time and I thought
some of the material in this book could be helpful in understanding a lot of
things behind The Bird Flu,"The Great Needless Scare of the 21st century."

http://birdflubook.com/toc.php

Dean,

Your e-mail was a very good read, but I just saw the topic and started to read
without seeing who it was from.  Part way through I thought, "wow, this is very
informative like Dean's posts" and then I saw that it was one in the same.  LOL 
Good to hear you are on.  I will go look at the book now.

Mark in NC

--- In bantamchickens@yahoogroups.com, "lafleche49" <hobbyguy@...> wrote:
>
> Hi All, This book has been on the internet for quite some time and I thought
some of the material in this book could be helpful in understanding a lot of
things behind The Bird Flu,"The Great Needless Scare of the 21st century."
>
> http://birdflubook.com/toc.php
>

Dreaming,

I have been swamped due to work and travel and then chickens.  It also looks
like some of the other experts must be swamped too.

I personally do not think it is OK as they are more likely to get killed by
predators at night as well as get cold and die.  I have a friend that had some
of them roosting on a metal fence in the start of winter and those birds did not
survive long (predators and the heat being sucked out of their bodies by the
metal did not help).

It could be you do not have room in the coop or the older ones are just being
mean and protective.

I have not had your problem, but on solution would be to put them in at night
and not let them out for a couple of weeks until they got used to roosting in
the coop and then try them again.

If there are a couple of mean one, put them in a chicken prison inside the coop
in sight, but away from hurting the others for a while and then let them out to
see if they are nicer.

Mark in NC

--- In bantamchickens@yahoogroups.com, "celestialdreaming"
<celestialdreaming@...> wrote:
>
> well, winter seems to be coming early in PA!  temps are getting into the 30s
at night.  Our young chickens are still roosting on top of the fence.  It
worries me because not only is it cold, but is has been raining so much and they
still continue to stay out at night.  Is this OK?  All our adult birds go in at
night, but the young birds are not following?  Any advice?  Thanks!
>

Hi All, This book has been on the internet for quite some time and I thought
some of the material in this book could be helpful in understanding a lot of
things behind The Bird Flu,"The Great Needless Scare of the 21st century."

http://birdflubook.com/toc.php

I have always said that the enhanced Bird Flu began with the confinement poultry
houses owned by corporate agriculture. However their spokes people deny this at
every turn even though the disease has hit them the hardest and their facilities
have been at the very center whenever there has been a disease outbreak.

They claim that their poultry housing is the most Biosecure in the world.
Evidently if disease can't get in it must be eminating from the inside out to
the surrounding areas where the wild and domestic birds live and are contracting
this disease. Strangely and most timely it is always "shortly after these
outbreaks have been reported by the confinement factories" that the wild birds
and backyard flocks are blamed.

As always when their poultry gets sick the blame is laid on the small breeder
and the governmental powers that back the Corporate interests of these mega
factories make sure to lay the blame on the little people. They summarily send
in death squads to the surrounding farms to wipe out their flocks without even
testing to see if the flu is present. And it doesn't seem to matter that these
small flocks have been blood tested by these same agencies and proven free of
disease year after year.

Under chapter II section 6, Coming Home to Roost, the page on Monoculture is
interesting in that it states that in the very near future there will only be 3
suppliers and breeding farms that will supply ALL of the replacement stock to
the Corporate egg and broiler farms world wide.
http://birdflubook.com/a.php?id=73

Cut and Quote: Soon, the industry predicts, there essentially may only be three
poultry breeders in the entire world.

That statement should scare the pants off of everyone regardless if they raise
rare breeds or consume poultry. If the entire poultry propogation system crashes
then a great part of the world's food supply will be lost for many years and
possibly forever and there won't be much that can replace it.

If this worst case scenario comes to pass then we will see first hand how the
animal rights groups people handle the fact that being Vegan is going to be more
expensive than eating prime cuts of Kolby beef.

When one form of food disappears or becomes extremely scarce then the population
will shift over to the remaining forms of nourishment causing immediate price
increases via supply and demand. When the price of common mushrooms hit $5 per
pound and potatoes at $4 per pound you will be able to hear the Vegans screaming
and accusing the government and Big Brother of price fixing. Maybe that would be
a blessing in disguise and might give us all a little breather from their
trumped up treachery against the small animal and bird keepers.

I fully understand that this is a Bantam discussion board but it is also good to
understand those things that can affect us without any negative actions taken on
our part to cause it.

In the 1400s through the 1600s when there were still countries where only the
rich owned land and the peasants rented from them. The bantam chicken and the
products from them didn't interest these land lords and as a result these small
birds kept the peasant subsistence farmer and their families alive.

If the broiler, turkey, and egg production farms were to become ruined and
defunct tomorrow then there would again be a need to rely on the old breeds and
the bantams once again until there were farms that could again take up the
slack. Hopefully they would revert back to the privately owned 500 hen range
flocks that supplied America's egg needs since the late 1800s.

As an aside to this posting the economy is also hitting the large poultry
producers in their bottom profit margin line. They are beginning to sell their
broiler chickens at a much younger age and smaller size.

I was in a local grocery store a few days ago that sells ready fried chicken by
the piece, dinner, or bucket. I have watched the size of these chicken pieces
shrink by at least half over the past 2 years.

I know the meat department manager personally and I asked where they were
getting their bantam broilers from to get such tiny little drum sticks. His
reply was "I can remember when that size drum stick was the shoulder part of a
wing. You should see how small our whole dressed friers are when we get them
in."  Dean