Hi Clay: I'm glad you're able to rejoin our discussion. I hope your
treatment is painless and successful.

We might be able to simplify this discussion if we examine the idea
"changing the future".

What is being changed? The future hasn't occurred yet, so we can't in
my opinion speak of changing it. We don't know what the future is,
whether our actions will be a significant part of it, but whether our
action will play a significant role in the future, and what that role will
be, is fully caused and not possible to "change".


Let's take a trivial example. Say I have some dirty plates on the dining
room table in the evening at my house. What will happen to those
plates in the near future? I don't have full information about all the
determinants involved, but I can imagine several different futures: in
one version the plates remain there until morning, in another I put them
in the dishwasher right away, in another I wait an hour, in another I drop
one, in another the table breaks and the plates fall on the floor and
break, in another a meteorite crashes through the ceiling and destroys
the table, the plates, and me. And so on. There are an infinite number
of seemingly possible futures, but only one genuinely possible future,
fully caused by preceding determinants. That's the assumption of
science, as I understand it, that for a given set of circumstances there
is only one possible outcome. For a roughly approximate set of
circumstances, "plates on a table at night at my house", there are
several imaginable outcomes, but only one possible outcome for each
particular occurrence. Some of the futures seem more likely, but only
one will actually occur, and it will be fully caused, including any
participation or non-participation on my part.

So, though I may take the plates to the kitchen, I can't be said to have
changed the future, any more than the table or the plate or the
dishwasher or meteor can. If all events are determined (which in
determinism, they are!) then my actions are no more free than the
actions of the molecules in the plate, the meteor, the table. I am more
complex and therefore harder to predict, but no less caused. The same
applies to the missions to the moon or to a therapist's plan. If they
occur, they had to occur, the future was not changed. There need be
no grand "plan", just some energy and space and time and physical
laws, lots of stuff will happen.

Ken


--- In cfntherapy@yahoogroups.com, "clayt1_2000" <drclay@c...>
wrote:
>
> Hi all!
>
> Sorry for the long break...but I see others have been gone too.
>
> I'm getting my out-of-control cells taken care of...just 6 more
> weeks of radiation to go.
>
> I finally took a little time to try to think through my confusion
> about self-help and determinism. This is my first rough draft. I
> need to think about it some more. Any help anyone can give me will
> be welcome.
>
> Self-help, Will power, and God's will.
>
> Self-help is the use of knowledge to change yourself, your
> relationships, or your life. This knowledge may come from many
> sources—reading, wise helpers, accumulated cultural wisdom, and
> even "figuring out" by yourself what will work. If the plan for
> changing is developed and carried out by a professional, however, it
> is not self-help, it is professional treatment. Self-help is based
> on better understanding the very complex laws of behavior—the
> dependable cause and effect relationships—that permit one to
> establish conditions, mental or physical, that control the
> subsequent behavior. Scientific knowledge offers a hope of
> influencing the future.
>
> Will power is based on the belief that concentration and sufficient
> long-lasting motivation will enable a person to achieve
> extraordinary goals. It is the change method exemplified by a
> motivational speaker, a cheering section, a supportive friend or
> group, an encouraging coach, or even by repeated self-inspiration.
> If meaningful motivation can be increased and if the existing lawful
> habits, attitudes, and environmental conditions do not need to be
> changed, future changes are sometimes possible. High motivation can
> not alter nature's laws. That is, if the necessary and lawful
> conditions, skills, methods, and other factors are not already in
> place and functioning the end goal is not likely to be achieved, no
> matter how motivated or driven one might be. Another major problem
> with this approach is that often motivational drive quickly
> dissipates and becomes ineffective unless it is repeatedly or
> constantly pumped up.
>
> God's will is a concept widely believed by many people…or at least
> applied by many when some outcome is highly desired or dreaded. It
> is a fatalistic belief that everything is unfolding according to a
> pre-set "divine" plan; thus, humans are urged to accept God's
> inevitable plan and to be grateful for or, at least, tolerant of
> whatever happens. God's will is a particularly interesting notion
> because it would seem to contradict the common belief that God's
> plan for everything can be influenced by prayer. The future has to
> be either fixed or changeable; it can hardly be both. Yet, believing
> God will intervene for you or already has good plans for your future
> may leave you hopeful and optimistic, characteristics that are
> positively related to feeling better and performing better.
>
> While I don't believe that every event and every outcome in the
> future is totally pre-determined by a grand plan, it would be
> possible to believe that everything is unfolding in accordance with
> fixed, immutable laws, such as the laws of physics, chemistry,
> behavior, social interaction, etc. In that case, while every future
> event would be fixed in terms of being lawful but also controllable
> to the extent that the conditions and lawful relationships could be
> understood and manipulated to bring about a desired outcome.
> Likewise, every moment and action that has already passed and was
> fully determined by the laws involved at the time, i.e. the actor
> couldn't have done otherwise. Yet, what happens at a future moment
> can be influenced if the actor, a helper, or someone else is
> knowledgeable enough of the laws (methods of change) involved in
the
> future event.
>
> Example: Man might influence his destiny to some extent,
> e.g. in the early 1960's the USA decided to go to the moon…and did
> it. Or a therapist might draft a plan to reduce a patient's
> depression…and do it.
>
>
> Clay