Hello Guys,

I had my eyes on the frogpad but I got discourage about the feedback
from programmers (like me :)) then I bump in this site and it got me
excited.  Although I'm a PC programmer, I had experience with embeded
programming (specifically the stk500). I hope to purchase one (here in
Japan) and join you guys in development :)

I was wondering if anyone already thought of:

1. integrating BT
  - http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=642#

2 Accelormeters like that from the wiimote (for maybe mouse movement
or additional character input)
  - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiimote
  - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerometer

3. incorporating touch sensitive keys such as the EWI in replacement
of mechanical switches?
  -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_conductivity
  -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EWI

Thats all :) Im excited for this project more power John! :)

Hi Regin,

AFAIK, the answers are yes, yes, no.

Early on, I discounted touch-sensitive keys based on my understanding
that people object to them in keyboards, preferring movement, and a
distinct tactile snap in things like laptops. Laptop manufacturers
sometimes brag about having longer throws than their competitors.
Also touch-sensitive keys are a little more complicated to implement
in prototypes.  Also I thought there might be more problems with
accidental key activations.

But this EWI thing seems to invalidate that thinking.  Can there be a
difference between keying a saxophone and a laptop?  Maybe, maybe not
and it's not clear which applies more to a chording keyboard.  I note
that if I just touch my switch caps instead of actually closing the
switches, I can do it just as fast. Nothing explodes.

It does seem inarguable that smaller finger movements should be faster
and touch-sensitive keys provide the smallest movements.  There can be
subtleties though in how the hand thinks, so to speak.

=========================
--- In chordite@yahoogroups.com, regin_rodriguez <no_reply@...> wrote:

> ... I was wondering if anyone already thought of:
>
> 1. integrating BT ...
> 2 Accelormeters like that from the wiimote ...
> 3. incorporating touch sensitive keys such as the EWI in replacement
> of mechanical switches?...

Hi John,

Thanks for the input.

Regarding touch switch, my perspective is not on the speed but its
more on preference.

I beleive consumers of this product may want a 'silent type'.

The sensation would be totally different I agree on that... but again
based on what I learned regarding EWI, saxophone greats (like the late
Michael brecker) endorse this instrument without any comments on the
new feel of the keys (since they are not press and 'click' like their
analog saxophone counterparts).

Im with you regarding the additional circuitry, it will be tedious....

:)

regin_rodriguez writes:
  > 1. integrating BT

I'm working on it.  The best BT keyboard controller chip is the
Broadcom BT2042.  Unfortunately, they are very stingy with programming
information for the chip -- and I need to program it to change the
keyboard scan algorithm.  So I'm going to pursue two routes:
reverse-engineer their firmware off their EEPROM, and look into CSR's
bluetooth modules.  Trouble is that they want $3500 for the SDK.

You can follow what I'm doing here:
     http://blog.russnelson.com/chordite

--
--my blog is at    http://blog.russnelson.com   | In my head, I'm
Crynwr sells support for free software  | PGPok | violating your
521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-323-1241       | software patent.
Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  |     Sheepdog          | So sue me!

Hi Russ,

Thank you for response :) ( I read you profile I have to say your
knowledge and experience is way beyond my reach :D wow.....)

what are your thoughts about touch switch in replacement with the
tactile switch?

thanks again :D
regin
--- In chordite@yahoogroups.com, Russ Nelson <nelson@...> wrote:
>
> regin_rodriguez writes:
>  > 1. integrating BT
>
> I'm working on it.  The best BT keyboard controller chip is the
> Broadcom BT2042.  Unfortunately, they are very stingy with programming
> information for the chip -- and I need to program it to change the
> keyboard scan algorithm.  So I'm going to pursue two routes:
> reverse-engineer their firmware off their EEPROM, and look into CSR's
> bluetooth modules.  Trouble is that they want $3500 for the SDK.
>
> You can follow what I'm doing here:
>     http://blog.russnelson.com/chordite
>
> --
> --my blog is at    http://blog.russnelson.com   | In my head, I'm
> Crynwr sells support for free software  | PGPok | violating your
> 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-323-1241       | software patent.
> Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  |     Sheepdog          | So sue me!
>

Hello Everyone,

I would just like to solicit feedback/opinions/violent reactions.

What if.....

1) Making the chordite from a round pipe maybe a diameter of a hair
spray.  In that way you can just hold it upsidedown (like griping
dumbels) Also the thumb buttons can be placed at both ends therefore
making it just a single unit for left and right hand users :)

2) Making it into a half round dome... yes you cant cary it with you,
but the buttons can be arranged in a more general way.

Just my toughts :)

Hello,

found this omron touch switch :) check it out :)

http://oeiwcsnts1.omron.com/marcom/pdfcatal.nsf/0/21B1EC66E583B58C8625725E006E78\
DA/$file/b6ts-08_manual.pdf

:)

--- In chordite@yahoogroups.com, regin_rodriguez <no_reply@...>
wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> found this omron touch switch :) check it out :)
>
> http://oeiwcsnts1.omron.com/marcom/pdfcatal.nsf/0/
21B1EC66E583B58C8625725E006E78DA/$file/b6ts-08_manual.pdf
>
> :)
>

Hi Regin,

Looks interesting. I don't know how useful it would be for a chordite
style keyboard due to the needs of holding the device, but it would
probably make a very nice business card sized chording keyboard that
lay flat on a desk.

Using the 8 key version you could have a layout like:

+----+ +----+ +----+ +----+ +----+
|    | |    | |    | |    | |    |
|    | |    | |    | |    | |    |
|    | +----+ +----+ +----+ |    |
|    | +----+ +----+ +----+ |    |
|    | |    | |    | |    | |    |
|    | |    | |    | |    | |    |
+----+ +----+ +----+ +----+ +----+

You could then use cording combinations a slides to get lots of
different combinations.

Also check out: www.cypress.com/capsense

Regards,

PJE

Thanks for the input John :D

Regards,
regin


--- In chordite@yahoogroups.com, "John McKown" <john_3000@...> wrote:
>
> Been there, tried that, still have the prototypes.  As discussed here
> before it's too hard to type with fingers that are also gripping ---
> possible but really annoyingly hard, given how unnecessary it is.
>
> If gripping involves the typing fingers then 100 different chords there
> means 100 different grips, i.e., 100 different ways your muscles must
> interact to avoid dropping the unit.  This sort of problem applies to
> several previously described hand-held keyboards, e.g. the Data Egg
> <http://xaphoon.com/dataegg/>  .
>

--- In chordite@yahoogroups.com, "PeterElliot" <egroups@...> wrote:
>
> --- In chordite@yahoogroups.com, regin_rodriguez <no_reply@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > found this omron touch switch :) check it out :)
> >
> > http://oeiwcsnts1.omron.com/marcom/pdfcatal.nsf/0/
> 21B1EC66E583B58C8625725E006E78DA/$file/b6ts-08_manual.pdf
> >
> > :)
> >
>
> Hi Regin,
>
> Looks interesting. I don't know how useful it would be for a chordite
> style keyboard due to the needs of holding the device, but it would
> probably make a very nice business card sized chording keyboard that
> lay flat on a desk.
>
> Using the 8 key version you could have a layout like:
>
> +----+ +----+ +----+ +----+ +----+
> |    | |    | |    | |    | |    |
> |    | |    | |    | |    | |    |
> |    | +----+ +----+ +----+ |    |
> |    | +----+ +----+ +----+ |    |
> |    | |    | |    | |    | |    |
> |    | |    | |    | |    | |    |
> +----+ +----+ +----+ +----+ +----+
>
> You could then use cording combinations a slides to get lots of
> different combinations.
>
> Also check out: www.cypress.com/capsense
>
> Regards,
>
> PJE
>

Hi PJE :)

  Thanks for the input :D

Regards
regin

regin_rodriguez writes:
  > what are your thoughts about touch switch in replacement with the
  > tactile switch?

I've only built three working keyboards all using the same keymodule,
so I may not know what I'm talking about.  I speculate that the
keyboard would be harder to use if you couldn't touch a key without
making a keypress.  You would have to deliberately hold your fingers
away from the touch keys.

But I may be wrong.  Experiment!

--
--my blog is at    http://blog.russnelson.com   | In my head, I'm
Crynwr sells support for free software  | PGPok | violating your
521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-323-1241       | software patent.
Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  |     Sheepdog          | So sue me!

regin_rodriguez writes:
  > 1) Making the chordite from a round pipe maybe a diameter of a hair
  > spray.  In that way you can just hold it upsidedown (like griping
  > dumbels) Also the thumb buttons can be placed at both ends therefore
  > making it just a single unit for left and right hand users :)

What thumb buttons?  It sounds like you're trying to reinvent the
Twiddler(tm).  I think that most of us are here because we don't think
the Twiddler makes us happy.

--
--my blog is at    http://blog.russnelson.com   | In my head, I'm
Crynwr sells support for free software  | PGPok | violating your
521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-323-1241       | software patent.
Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  |     Sheepdog          | So sue me!

--- In chordite@yahoogroups.com, Russ Nelson <nelson@...> wrote:

... I speculate that the keyboard would be harder to use if you
couldn't touch a key without making a keypress.  You would have to
deliberately hold your fingers away from the touch keys. ...
========================
That sounds right to me.  There are moments when you'd like to
reestablish precisely where the keys are in relation to the fingers.
Actually you want to do that fairly often. The natural way is to touch
the keys (without producing input).

I've poked around a little and now I'm confused.  Exactly what does
"touch-sensitive key" mean to musicians?  I suspect what it does not
mean is "momentary SPST switch with zero throw."

Take the EWI: do the little buttons not move at all?  I get the
impression that at least in the context of electronic pianos,
"touch-sensitive keys" move like you would expect in a piano and what
is meant is that the key can distinguish hard strikes from soft.  Does
a saxophone sound different when you press the valves with different
forces?

Hi John,

Thanks for feedback.  The ewi keys are touch switches.  Since its a
wind synthesizer, it would only play when you blow on it. But I do
realize the point about being able to touch without making an entry :)
thanks again.

regin
--- In chordite@yahoogroups.com, "John McKown" <john_3000@...> wrote:
>
> --- In chordite@yahoogroups.com, Russ Nelson <nelson@> wrote:
>
> ... I speculate that the keyboard would be harder to use if you
> couldn't touch a key without making a keypress.  You would have to
> deliberately hold your fingers away from the touch keys. ...
> ========================
> That sounds right to me.  There are moments when you'd like to
> reestablish precisely where the keys are in relation to the fingers.
> Actually you want to do that fairly often. The natural way is to touch
> the keys (without producing input).
>
> I've poked around a little and now I'm confused.  Exactly what does
> "touch-sensitive key" mean to musicians?  I suspect what it does not
> mean is "momentary SPST switch with zero throw."
>
> Take the EWI: do the little buttons not move at all?  I get the
> impression that at least in the context of electronic pianos,
> "touch-sensitive keys" move like you would expect in a piano and what
> is meant is that the key can distinguish hard strikes from soft.  Does
> a saxophone sound different when you press the valves with different
> forces?
>

Hi Russ,

Thanks again for the feed back :)

Regards,


--- In chordite@yahoogroups.com, Russ Nelson <nelson@...> wrote:
>
> regin_rodriguez writes:
>  > what are your thoughts about touch switch in replacement with the
>  > tactile switch?
>
> I've only built three working keyboards all using the same keymodule,
> so I may not know what I'm talking about.  I speculate that the
> keyboard would be harder to use if you couldn't touch a key without
> making a keypress.  You would have to deliberately hold your fingers
> away from the touch keys.
>
> But I may be wrong.  Experiment!
>
> --
> --my blog is at    http://blog.russnelson.com   | In my head, I'm
> Crynwr sells support for free software  | PGPok | violating your
> 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-323-1241       | software patent.
> Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  |     Sheepdog          | So sue me!
>

Hi Russ,

Thanks for feedback.  I would like to know the reason behind the
chordite not having any buttons for the thumb since its one of the
strongest finger?

Thanks :)


--- In chordite@yahoogroups.com, Russ Nelson <nelson@...> wrote:
>
> regin_rodriguez writes:
>  > 1) Making the chordite from a round pipe maybe a diameter of a hair
>  > spray.  In that way you can just hold it upsidedown (like griping
>  > dumbels) Also the thumb buttons can be placed at both ends therefore
>  > making it just a single unit for left and right hand users :)
>
> What thumb buttons?  It sounds like you're trying to reinvent the
> Twiddler(tm).  I think that most of us are here because we don't think
> the Twiddler makes us happy.
>
> --
> --my blog is at    http://blog.russnelson.com   | In my head, I'm
> Crynwr sells support for free software  | PGPok | violating your
> 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-323-1241       | software patent.
> Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  |     Sheepdog          | So sue me!
>

Variations on this question arise repeatedly.  First Church of
Chordite dogma holds that even though the keyboard is held by the
operating hand, the typing fingers shall not grip.  This can be
achieved by

(1) adding straps to hold the unit in the hand or
(2) attaching the switches to a glove or
(3) attaching the switches to a frame held between the palm and the thumb.

The FCC believes that way 3 is best, at least until better ways are
invented.

===================================
--- In chordite@yahoogroups.com, regin_rodriguez <no_reply@...> wrote:

> ...I would like to know the reason behind the
> chordite not having any buttons for the thumb since its one of the
> strongest finger?

I briefly got curious about changes in the way mouse mode works that
might make it less annoying to use.  My present code, kbm06, has
acceleration of a sort: if you hold down the mouse keys the cursor
speeds up (once).  The experiment consists of doing away with that and
instead making the directions NE,NW,SE & SW always a constant fast
speed and N,S,E & W always slow.  If you want to play with it the
source and (Intel) hex files are at

       http://chordite.com/kbm061.asm

and ~.hex.  I was not real impressed. It might be a little better but
not a whole lot.

Between the double lines below is an excerpt from Greg Aharonian's
Internet Patent News Service newsletter [1], 30 May 2007 edition,
which quotes a letter in the Economist from a man who should know.

========================

     -  A LAMENT FROM THE FOUNDER OF XEROX PARC, JACOB GOLDMAN

The 31 March 2007 edition of The Economist has a letter to the editor
from Jacob Goldman, former director of Ford's Scientific Research
Laboratory and founder of Xerox PARC, i.e., someone who knows research
management really well.  I dedicate his letter to Microsoft, which
after spending billions of dollars on R&D, just came out with a
coffee-table with a computer touch-screen - so pathetically
uninnovative you want to blow your brains out (all the while Microsoft
Explorer still doesn't realize that if you type ww.microsoft.com,
99.9999999% of the time you mean, and want, and should get
automatically, www.microsoft.com).


     On a different wavelength

     SIR - Industry's abandonment of basic scientific research only
     reinforces C.P. Snow's idea of "the two cultures", which
     describes the incompatibility between scientists and the
     non-technical establishment ("Out of the dusty labs", March
     3rd).  In the 1950s and 1960s Ford Motor supported a fine
     scientific research lab that assessed the future of the
     transport economy, but its proposals fell on the deaf ears
     of executives who ignored such things as hybrid vehicles and
     fuel cells.

     Far more glaring was the unwillingness of management at Xerox
     to turn the remarkable output of Xerox PARC into company
     sponsored products.  Five years before the appearance of the
     first personal computer, they were presented with a computer
     capable of word processing and spreadsheets.  A thousand beta
     versions were deployed throughout the company and also to key
     potential customers such as Congress and the White House.

     However, those responsible for manufacturing and marketing
     the computer offered all kinds of excuses to sidestep
     innovative products.

(Greg note: fortunately, Xerox got the Patent Office to hire away all
of these managers  :-)

     One executive, an accountant, refused to acknowledge the validity
     of Moore's Law, the guiding principle of the entire electronics
     industry.  Indeed, C.P. Snow was correct: the technologists and
     the business executives speak entirely different languages.

(Greg note: actually, C.P. Snow was too ignorant of science to be
correct.  Indeed, the patenting of business methods shows that there
are common languages to have "one world", just as patenting all forms
of art and entertainment will bring about common languages for that
overlap as well.)
=====================

1  http://www.patenting-art.com/clients/patnews.htm

--- In chordite@yahoogroups.com, "John McKown" <john_3000@...> wrote:
[..]
> instead making the directions NE,NW,SE & SW always a constant fast
> speed and N,S,E & W always slow.
If I understood how "mouse mode" works, you could use remaining keys
to accelerate manually. The second idea i got is
double-/trible-pressing. Hold for normal speed, tip and hold for
faster and tip twice and hold for high speed.

> I was not real impressed. It might be a little better but
> not a whole lot.

Maybe I missed the message, but has anyone actually build a chordite
with a thumb stick? (Picture?)
I'm not shure about how you can hold the chordite with your thumb and
be able to use the stick at the same time.
I still don't have a prototype, but I tried grabbing several things
and moving my thumb in at least 4 directions and I think that's kind
of hard or not working at all.

- Marius

--- In chordite@yahoogroups.com, "John McKown" <john_3000@...> wrote:
>
> Sorry.
No problem, that's life. ;-)

>I might do kits but they'll be for a practical product: physically
>robust and USB or wireless. Probably even pocketable.

Talking of USB... are you still at it? (With the AT90USBKEY?)

I just skimmed through the DFU (device firmware upgrade) documentation
and it got me excited again, because you can program the at90usb***
directly through USB without the need of a
microchip-to-serial-port-wire-hack, which is no possibility for me
anyway, because of the lack of a serial port in/on/at(?) my laptop.
Maybe I'll make it this time ^_^

Now that I think on it why are we assuming the thumb is to work the
thumb stick when it's the fingers that have been liberated from grip
duty.  Thus, Toby, if the stick's action is too stiff for placement on
the top for use by the thumb, perhaps it can be mounted on yet another
arm beside the index finger's switch arms.  I find it easy to
move/spread the index finger over to a place where the stick could be,
while the thumb keeps on doing its bracing thing.

On Saturday 16 June 2007 06:46, John McKown wrote:
> Toby Gray built a unit with a thumb stick here.
> <http://www.yargybot.com/WearablePC/Chordite/DStick.html>    He has
> not said here how well he likes it.

I think it worked OK, but I'm afraid that I've opted for an "Alphagrip
5" for my own project so I've stopped working on my chordite stuff
for now.

On Saturday 16 June 2007 08:04, John McKown wrote:
> Now that I think on it why are we assuming the thumb is to work the
> thumb stick when it's the fingers that have been liberated from
> grip duty.  Thus, Toby, if the stick's action is too stiff for
> placement on the top for use by the thumb, perhaps it can be
> mounted on yet another arm beside the index finger's switch arms.
> I find it easy to move/spread the index finger over to a place
> where the stick could be, while the thumb keeps on doing its
> bracing thing.

It might be worth a try, but I suspect that it would taking some
getting used to. Maybe it's just me, but the kind of movements
required to operate a "baby joystick" come much more naturally to my
thumb than my index finger.

Hopefully you'll write up your experience with the Alphagrip at some
point.  I can't seem to get beyond the two-handedness of it.

===================

--- In chordite@yahoogroups.com, Toby Gray <toby@...> wrote:

> I think it worked OK, but I'm afraid that I've opted for an "Alphagrip
> 5" for my own project so I've stopped working on my chordite stuff
> for now.
>

> And if autocompletion is worth $265M because typing is hard, how much is
> it worth to make typing easy?

Maybe that's the point. People are misguided by prices. They think the
thing they're purchasing is actually worth as much as they pay. In
short: "most-pricey-item == (best-item-available &&
overall-very-good-item)"

I was pointed to a story about "Five Ideas That Will Reinvent Modern
Computing" on PCMAG.com [1] by slashdot today.
One Idea is a "Mid Air Mouse" called "Soap". Simply put, it's a
wireless mouse put into a fabric. [quote]It's called Soap because it
spins in your hand like a wet bar of soap in the shower. Basically,
it's a mouse and a mouse pad in the same device..[/quote] [2]

Interesting, especially because they claim [quote]"Soap is so accurate
that you can use it to play a high-speed first-person shooter."[/quote]

As long as this is not just some kind of marketing hype it sounds
pretty darn good.

[1] Story: http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,2147449,00.asp
[2] Image:
http://www.pcmag.com/slideshow_viewer/0,1205,l=209783&s=27251&a=209433&po=5,00.a\
sp

~ marius