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"that isn't scrum"   Message List  
Reply Message #657 of 1583 |
Re: [citcon] "that isn't scrum"


On Oct 18, 2008, at 1:32 PM, Ben Rady wrote:
>> I've had a lot of people tell me you're not doing "Agile"
>> if you're not doing some particular practice. 

Now you have me wondering, are there some practices without which — or their equivalent — you aren't doing agile?

I've had other people say the key practices are:

* Iterations
* Planning game
* TDD
* Automated acceptance tests
* Continuous integration
* Retrospectives

And that without these you really aren't "doing Agile", at least not in a way that will succeed.

Is this the list, without which no?

Jtf



Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:05 am

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Message #657 of 1583 |
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My observation is that few folks are interested in reaching the RI level. -d ... -- David Vydra http://itarra.com http://www.testdriven.com...
David Vydra
dvydra2 Offline Send Email
Oct 20, 2008
4:49 am

... Now you have me wondering, are there some practices without which — or their equivalent — you aren't doing agile? I've had other people say the key...
Jeffrey Fredrick
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Oct 20, 2008
5:05 am

Jeff, Its "turtles all the way down" I am afraid. Lets take TDD. Are you doing it test-first? How long do your tests run? Are they fast? Do you use DI? Do you...
David Vydra
dvydra2 Offline Send Email
Oct 20, 2008
5:14 am

... I think that when you boil it right down, the key features are: (1) autonomy for the team to choose the working practices that they judge are appropriate ...
Matt Wynne
mattwynneatf... Offline Send Email
Oct 20, 2008
7:22 am

But isn't that virtually the definition of the "Ha" from Shu-Ha-Ri? Not that there's anything wrong with that, that is pretty much what I strive for, but I'm...
Jeffrey Fredrick
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Oct 21, 2008
5:41 am

I think all of these practices are replaceable, it's just that nobody's found a general purpose way to replace them. For most teams, these practices are the...
Ben Rady
bjrady Offline Send Email
Oct 20, 2008
1:51 pm

I agree. Something that could be easier to list are Project Smells. Has anyone listed that before? For example (coming from my own experience): - teams not...
Eric Lefevre-Ardant
elefevre7 Offline Send Email
Oct 20, 2008
2:11 pm

On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 4:11 PM, Eric Lefevre-Ardant ... Some more: * team unstability / turnover (lack ability to know yourself well) * not allowing people to...
Jerome Lacoste
jerome_lacoste Offline Send Email
Oct 20, 2008
3:29 pm

SCRUM can deteriorate very quickly into 'incremental waterfall with iterations'. At CITCON I called it 'iterative waterfall', but I think 'incremental...
Koen Van Exem
koenvanexem Offline Send Email
Oct 20, 2008
4:35 pm

I think you're talking about WAgile[1] [1] http://www.parlezuml.com/blog/...
Matt Wynne
mattwynneatf... Offline Send Email
Oct 20, 2008
5:31 pm

Well said. I think a useful reformulation would be that you don't need to do these practices, but if you want to say your Agile that you are obliged to explain...
Jeffrey Fredrick
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Oct 21, 2008
6:31 am

I had a conversation with Kent Beck back in 2001 and what he said then has always stuck with me. He said something to the effect that all agile (or he probably...
Lisa Crispin
lisa_crispin... Offline Send Email
Oct 22, 2008
7:38 pm

It is interesting the paths the different methodologies use to aim for that same destination. I came across this characterization the other day on Alistair...
Jeffrey Fredrick
frogstar Offline Send Email
Oct 28, 2008
8:51 pm

Hmm, sounds like shu-ha-ri :) Or perhaps Maslow's hierarchy of needs. ... -- David Vydra http://itarra.com http://www.testdriven.com...
David Vydra
dvydra2 Offline Send Email
Oct 28, 2008
10:20 pm

I was working on a fairly large project, with most of the development team in a different site than mine. Our Agile facilitator, our resident...
Eric Lefevre-Ardant
elefevre7 Offline Send Email
Oct 20, 2008
8:08 am

Hmm - sometimes you have to recognise that the experiences of an individual can outweigh the common knowledge of the team. I'm not saying he's definitely right...
Korny Sietsma
kornysietsma Offline Send Email
Oct 20, 2008
9:40 pm

... try for earnest. I think that's a key point. They are called "practices" for a reason. When I've talked to people about the "test infection rate" a...
Jeffrey Fredrick
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Oct 21, 2008
5:46 am

I was also surprised about low "test infection" rates, which matches survey results from Scott Ambler of Dr Dobbs folk who considered themselves to be agile....
erik petersen
wvole Offline Send Email
Oct 22, 2008
3:03 am

Actually many shops seem to survive with QA writing automated tests. This presumes some level of code testability, but many development managers do not...
David Vydra
dvydra2 Offline Send Email
Oct 22, 2008
4:18 am

The common misconception is that TDD is just a testing exercise. It's not. In it's purest form it's really more of a design exercise. This may help explain: ...
Josh Price
joshcprice Offline Send Email
Oct 22, 2008
5:06 am

I think that's true Josh, but if people don't think they have a design problem that argument won't be very persuasive. I think it is much more common to think...
Jeffrey Fredrick
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Oct 22, 2008
5:12 am

I agree with all 3 points. ;) The question often becomes how do you convince your manager that they should trust the team they've assembled to solve the...
Josh Price
joshcprice Offline Send Email
Oct 22, 2008
5:48 am

JUnit tests against an API, or Selenium tests, are about integration (or maybe system) testing, not unit testing. My usual understanding of "test infection"...
Korny Sietsma
kornysietsma Offline Send Email
Oct 22, 2008
9:37 pm

... I'd argue that ill-structured acceptance tests don't scale. If the team doesn't write its test code at least as carefully as its production code it's...
Steve Freeman
smg_freeman Offline Send Email
Dec 7, 2008
11:00 pm
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