Re: Typological sins (WAS: Re: [CONLANG] phonology, critique pls)
On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 3:36 PM, Philip Newton<philip.newton@...> wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 14:40, Mark J. Reed<markjreed@...> wrote:
>> I still can't aspirate a voiced stop. Â I just wind up making it louder. :)
>
> Well, as I understand it, voices stops aren't aspirated, strictly
> speaking, but are pronounced with breathy voice.
>
> Aspiration and voicing both have to do with Voice Onset Time (VOT):
> voiced = negative VOT, unvoiced = zero VOT, unvoiced aspirated =
> positive VOT. Which means that a voiced aspirated segment is a
> contradiction in terms since it implies both a negative and a positive
> VOT.
That's one definition of "aspiration" - another refers to the [h]-like
puff of air which follows aspirated consonants, which has the
advantage of being
applicable when no voiced segment follows (this happens, among other
things, to be convenient when describing my idiolect). It is perhaps
possible to aspirate a voiced stop in this sense, but you'd more
likely end up with a voiced, [h\]-like puff; not sure if this could be
described as breathy voice.
--
Andreas Johansson
Why can't you be a non-conformist just like everybody else?
... That is to say, the voicing onset time is still negative, but the "vowel onset time" or whatever you're going to call it is positive. Or are they better...
Kelvin Jackson
kechpaja@...
Jul 15, 2009 2:05 pm
... That's one definition of "aspiration" - another refers to the [h]-like puff of air which follows aspirated consonants, which has the advantage of being ...
Andreas Johansson
andreasj@...
Jul 15, 2009 5:35 pm
Hi! ... That's the hardest for me, too. But I can do it when repeating over and over: [apa ap_ha aba ab_ha apa ap_ha aba ab_ha apa ap_ha aba ab_ha apa ap_ha...
Henrik Theiling
theiling@...
Jul 15, 2009 2:18 pm
The more I think about whether individual phonemes are over-/underrepresented in conlangs, the more I wonder whether a better gauge to measure against would be...
Lee
waywardwretch@...
Jul 15, 2009 12:52 pm
... Also, all phonemes are not created equal within specific languages. Take English, for instance. /?/ and /Z/ (<uh-oh> and <leisure>) are fairly rare, with...
Paul Hartzer
paulhartzer@...
Jul 15, 2009 2:51 pm
... Oh, duh! I was thinking about phoneme frequency within each language as well, but somehow failed to connect that with population frequency. So, yep, each...
Lee
waywardwretch@...
Jul 15, 2009 3:48 pm
Hi! ... I use them quite frequently, too, but obviously for different reasons: [a) I try to avoid German-biased phonologies. (b) I absolutely try to avoid...
Henrik Theiling
theiling@...
Jul 15, 2009 2:09 pm
... I have made an effort to exclude /T/ and /D/ in the past, to avoid being too English. I included them on purpose in Nevashi because it is supposed to be...
M.S. Soderquist
gloriouswaffle@...
Jul 15, 2009 2:06 pm
... The database is pretty cool. But curious that English, Swedish, Czech, and others are not included. Lee...
Lee
waywardwretch@...
Jul 13, 2009 8:58 pm
... I'm in the dark... /T/ vs [T]? Thanks, Lee...
Lee
waywardwretch@...
Jul 13, 2009 9:02 pm
... /T/ is the phoneme, whereas [T] is the actual sound. For instance, the phoneme /T/ may be realized as some other sound than [T], and the sound [T] may...
Kelvin Jackson
kechpaja@...
Jul 13, 2009 9:10 pm
... I don't get it either. Japanese has /t/, which becomes [ts)] before /t/ becomes [cC)] before /i/ and /j/ (or maybe /t/-/c/ is neutralized before /i/). But...
Garth Wallace
gwalla@...
Jul 13, 2009 9:20 pm
... It was not a serious suggestion (note smiley on Paul's msg), just a means of rationalizing the existence of [T]/[D] in so many conlangs when they're absent...
Mark J. Reed
markjreed@...
Jul 13, 2009 9:28 pm
... It was definitely a joke, based on the idea that, theoretically, phonemes can be called whatever we choose to call them. The Japanese phoneme which has the...
Paul Hartzer
paulhartzer@...
Jul 13, 2009 11:31 pm
... Aha, that's what I was missing. Thanks. ... others are not included. I imagine the idea is not to over-represent the IE family, or the SAE sprachbund, so...
Alex Fink
000024@...
Jul 13, 2009 11:40 pm
... can be called whatever we choose to call them. The Japanese phoneme which has the allophones [ts] and [t] is generally (and most logically) called /t/, but...
Alex Fink
000024@...
Jul 14, 2009 12:00 am
... OK, now I am totally confused.... [sigh] I thought the CXL (et al) symbols represented the sounds. If not, then why bother using CXL? Lee...
Lee
waywardwretch@...
Jul 14, 2009 2:41 am
... A transcription in /slashes/ is phonemic, whereas a transcription in [square brackets] is phonetic; the former is supposed to represent the phonemes of the...
Jim Henry
jimhenry1973@...
Jul 14, 2009 3:19 am
... An example from German (as in my close-to-standard 'lect): - /x/ is realized as [C] after front vowels (/i I y Y e E 2 9 Ae/) and as [X] after back vowels...
Carsten Becker
carbeck@...
Jul 14, 2009 1:24 pm
One last question: if /T/ is a phoneme, is [T] a phone? If not, what is it called? ----larry...
Larry Sulky
larrysulky@...
Jul 14, 2009 4:25 pm
... Yes, [T] is a phone. It may be an allophone of a particular phoneme in a particular language (even /T/!), but in general it is just a phone. -- MarJ. Reed...
Mark J. Reed
markjreed@...
Jul 14, 2009 4:44 pm
... Both phonemic and phonetic transcriptions represent "sounds", but they do so at a different level of detail. If we're talking about English, for instance,...
Mark J. Reed
markjreed@...
Jul 14, 2009 3:47 am
... I was having a bit of fun with the phonemic vs phonetic distinction, and didn't mean to cause some much confusion. Since the topic has been raised: ...
Paul Hartzer
paulhartzer@...
Jul 14, 2009 4:24 am
MANY thanks. I searched and searched for what the brackets indicated, but couldn't seem to find where they indicated allophones. Great explanation on...
Lee
waywardwretch@...
Jul 14, 2009 12:52 pm
... NP, the joke was lost on me because I couldn't find what the brackets indicated. It's good to have fun with this stuff, otherwise it becomes just another...
Lee
waywardwretch@...
Jul 14, 2009 1:28 pm
... ======================= After the relatively simple phonology of Kash, I screwed up my courage and introduced tones and /q/ into Gwr. Since I don't do...
Roger Mills
romiltz@...
Jul 15, 2009 3:50 am
Yeah, I know what you mean. Okaikiar started out with seven vowels - the Romance long vowels + /&/ and /@/. Then I decided that [a] and [&] were allophones,...
Mark J. Reed
markjreed@...
Jul 15, 2009 4:08 am
Hallo! ... Old Albic has none of them (though Proto-Albic, the reconstructed common ancestor of the Albic languages, has a phoneme which may have been /?\/)....
Jörg Rhiemeier
joerg_rhiemeier@...
Jul 15, 2009 10:45 am
I'm most interested in artlangs, and for me the litmus of a good artlang is not whether it's close to or far from a particular natlang (English or otherwise),...
Paul Hartzer
paulhartzer@...
Jul 15, 2009 3:21 pm
... Hear, hear! While I confess a fondness for [T] and [D] myself, the greatest burden Tolkien left me is not phonetic. I'm almost purely an artlang creator....
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