Ash Wells wrote:
>
>Interesting concept!
>   What about 'thing/one' - when you're describing a non-specific item, or
>differentiating 2 objects out of
>a pair.
>   e.g.
>   'Which one would you like?'  'The one on the left'.

I was thinking deriving this meaning from the hand names, i.e. "The one on
the left hand side".


Roger Mills wrote:
>
>Armt Richard Johansen wrote:
> > First, a question: how about cardinal directions? (North, south, east,
> > west.) Surely, these concepts must be important to hunter-gatherer
> > societies.
>
>Some languages use derivs. of "toward the mountains/toward the sea",
>up/down etc. but of course that depends on the local geography and one's
>orientation in it...

Yes, naturally there will be absolute directions too. Since the climatic
setting in question is subtropical / tropical, terms referring to local
geography might be more important than the cardinal directions. (Those
aren't anyway always as stable as you IE people might think; none of the 8
cardinal direction terms in Finnish date older than Proto-Fennic - ie. 2-3K
years of age.)


> > could of course go with left/right version of every body part that comes
> > in pairs, but it gets kinda implausible for the language to have that
>kind
> > of fine-grainedness, yet still have no words for left and right.
>
>I think so too.

Which is exactly why I settled for so few root-pairs. The four eye / hand
names will definitely be fully independant words; either or both of the foot
names I suppose could be nigh-ancient derivations from the hand names...
which will probably in turn come from "strong" and "weak" or sumthing
similar.


> > Other suggestions:
> >
> > - port/starboard
> > - clockwise/counterclockwise
> > - right-handed/left-handed helicity
>
>IIRC from what John V. said about his people, they may not have that level
>of technological thought....?

Helicity is definitly too advanced a concept. Clockwise/counterclockwise
will be trivial to derive from the verbs "to turn left / counterclockwise" &
"to turn right / clockwise"; and the riverbank names & the absolute
directions upstream/downstream will probably be used instead of
port/starboard, as the culture won't be seafaring (much, at least)


> > Also, the lexical items for Right Eye and Left Eye might over time
>undergo
> > semantic drift, so that they end up actually meaning right and left.
>This
> > would especially be the case if they can be combined with the words for
> > specific body parts that come in left-right pairs.

Wouldn't the fact that there's two or three such combining root-pairs hinder
development of full abstraction? At least as long as the culture stays on
the same development level (small indigenous SE-Asian or sub-Saharan African
people could be a good comparision)

Also, as far as semantic drift goes, I'm thinking of taking the eye names
originally from mythology... maybe relating to stellar bodies. Ooh, and new
idea - ritual eyepatches during eclipses! /,-)


>Whether the cultural concept _right: good vs. left: bad, taboo_ is really
>ancient is an interesting question.

Well, with handedness, right=strong, left=weak is rather trivial; the more
symbolic meaning is not exactly lightyears apart, altho I wouldn't expect
every culture to have developed / adopted it.

John Vertical

On 7/31/06, Steven Williams <feurieaux@...> wrote:
> --- Mark Reed <markjreed@...> wrote:
>
> > "Juice" is second-nature, but "sluice" still throws
> > me.  Makes me want to say /sluwIs/ or something.
>
> Hold on, you mean it's _not_ pronounced [sluwIs]?
> How's it really pronounced, then? [slu:s]?
>
> ...And I've been saying *that* for how many years
> (well over a decade, since I first encountered the
> word in print)?

Same here -- you're not alone.

In fact, I don't think I've ever heard that word spoken, so I only had
my guessed spelling pronunciation to go on.

But according to http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sluice, it
does appear to be an exact rhyme for "juice" (and "abstruse", "loose",
etc.). Who knew.

Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <philip.newton@...>

I find it very interesting that we all made the same incorrect
assumption about the pronunciation of "sluice".  I wonder what it is
that prevents the eye-rhyme with "juice" from guiding the
pronunciation?  It was precisely this phenomenon which triggered my
message.  For the umpteen hundred and umpteenth time I was driving
near Bull Sluice Lake, saw it go by on my GPS map display and thought,
for about the umpteen hundred and umpteenth time, that it was a funny
name that was very close to being obscene.   But this time, for no
readily apparent reason - maybe I'd been thinking about etymological
spelling or something -  I realized that I'd never heard the word
pronounced and became unsure that it was at all close to the
obscenity.  In fact, I began to suspect before I ever looked it up
that it might be pronounced to rhyme with "juice".  Hence my question.

Someone pointed out "suit"=/sut/ as another example of <ui> = /u/, and
contrasted it with "suite"=/swit/.  That brings up an interesting
YAEPT point (sorry): when I was growing up in Middle Georgia, there
was a three-way opposition among /sut/ spelled "suit", an item of
clothing; "suite" pronounced /swit/, a set of connected rooms; and
"suite" pronounced /sut/, a configuration of furniture (e.g. a
"bedroom suite").  Somewhere along the way that last word began to be
pronounced /swit/ also - presumably because it was always so in other
parts of the country and the regional speech was moving toward
conformity.

--
Mark J. Reed <markjreed@...>

I wrote:
JK> Familiarity is the simplest, and takes only two values. One is used
JK> exclusively for second person, while the other generally means first
JK>  person, except that in relationships of great intimacy (typically
JK> spouses or close relatives) the first-person form may be used for
JK> second person as well (A and S are sufficient to disambiguate).

and And Rosta wrote:
AR> How do A and S disambiguate? One would expect them to be symmetrical &
AR> default/neutral in intimate relationships...

Often they are - but not in a parent-child relationship, where both speakers
would use A-high for the parent and A-low for the child. Also, any intimate
relationship is likely to adopt the default situation with respect to S,
where each speaker refers to himself with S-low and the other with
S-neutral, so this disambiguates in any case.

JK> Authority and servility each take three values, low, default and
JK> high. [...]
AR> What about High1--High2, Low1--Low2, High1--Default2, D1--H2, L1--D2,
AR> D1--L2?

Certainly, many different combinations are possible. You have to see it on
two levels though. The two speakers may adopt the same view of their
relationship, or may disagree to a greater or lesser extent. Each speaker's
attitude will motivate their choice of pronouns. There are several
conventionalised patterns for A and for S (some of which are described in
the last post), and most of the time a speaker will choose one of them,
although they may form new ones on the fly if necessary.

AR> So High S 1st person would always be imperious/haughty? What would
AR> the difference between H1--L2 and H1--D2 be?

It would be such an extreme display of high social status to refer to
yourself with high S that it's difficult to imagine that person referring to
anyone else by anything but the lowest possible S (it's like using an
honorific intended for 2nd person with your own name or 1st-person pronoun).
I suppose it might occur if a monarch who always used high-S first person
met a monarch of another country - they might not feel able to give up
high-S 1st person (demeaning themselves in the eyes of their people) but
would feel obliged to use at least default-S (maybe even high-S) for the
visiting dignitary.

AR> Do incongruous combinations of F, A and S exist? If so, are they left
AR> unused due to their incongruity and lack of applicability to
AR> circumstances in normal life? Or are they exapted into some more utile
AR> function?

Fascinating question. I haven't explored that in detail. I'm inclined to
think that even the most unlikely combinations would not be exapted, just
very rarely used.

Thanks for your interest!
Jonathan.

_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live� Messenger has arrived. Click here to download it for free!
http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/?locale=en-gb

I have drafted the following description of the conlang flag for possible
inclusion on the Flags of the World web site (fotw.net). Please let me
know if there are any errors, omissions, or inaccuracies. I plan on
posting it on Friday if there are no objections.

---
The conlang flag represents both the Conlang mailing list, and language
inventors and constructed language aficionados worldwide. It was flown at the
1st Language Construction Conference in Berkeley, Californa in 2006.

The general idea of the conlang flag was decided as a result of a poll of the
subscribers of the Conlang mailing list in 2004. It has incorporated many
subsequent suggestions by list members, and the final version of the flag was
drawn by Christian Thalmann.

Symbolism
The flag depicts a silhouette of a ziggurat in front of a rising sun. The
ziggurat is a reference to the biblical story of the Tower of Babel,
representing language and linguistic diversity. The terraced structure of the
ziggurat is also an iconic representation of the way a typical artistic language
is created piece by piece, and is never quite completed.

The rising sun represents the rise in notoriety and recognition of language
construction as an art form.

An earlier proposal for the design had a red sky. This was later changed to
purple, to avoid the association with anarchism that the red-black combination
would have. In addition, purple is seen to symbolise creativity.

Suggested Pantone colours
The following Pantone values were used for the flags flown at the 1st LCC:

black: Pantone Black
yellow: PMS 123
purple: PMS 527

--
Arnt Richard Johansen                                http://arj.nvg.org/
I know, I know.  I could write a whole book about procrastination, but
who has the time?    -- Mark Shoulson

Try poking Sally Caves for pics. I know she took some, but I still
haven't seen 'em. :-P

I'd suggest expanding the authorship paragraph to include the major
contributors, and include versions of the flag leading up to the final
one. Also, that the copyright to it has been released into public
domain for any appropriate use.

  - Sai

> However, for handwritten use, many of the symbols are too complex to write
quickly and too rectilinear to readily approximate cursively.  Ideally, I think,
a practical script for any language will enable quick and fluid reading and
writing.  And it doesn't hurt if it looks beautiful, too, but that's a bit
harder to achieve.


Perhaps have a separate variant of the script for handwriting?

I at least see no need to impose handwriting limitations on
computer-use script, or vice versa.


  - Sai

Is anyone else having problems with the listserv web interface, where it
doesn't list the most recent archives?

The latest I get is week 4 of July. I know week 5 exists because I searched
for a topic that was carried over to that week and the search results
showed the entry.

Jeff

Hi!

Jeffrey Jones writes:
> Is anyone else having problems with the listserv web interface, where it
> doesn't list the most recent archives?
>
> The latest I get is week 4 of July. I know week 5 exists because I searched
> for a topic that was carried over to that week and the search results
> showed the entry.

I also get 'July 2006, week 5' and 'August 2006, week 1', both in the overview,
clickable, and browsable.

Strange!

Maybe a proxy problem?  Maybe someone's caching the page for too long?

**Henrik

On Wed, 2 Aug 2006 01:16:43 +0200, Henrik Theiling <theiling@...>
wrote:

>Hi!
>
>Jeffrey Jones writes:
>> Is anyone else having problems with the listserv web interface, where it
>> doesn't list the most recent archives?
>>
>> The latest I get is week 4 of July. I know week 5 exists because I
>> searched for a topic that was carried over to that week and the search
>> results showed the entry.
>
> I also get 'July 2006, week 5' and 'August 2006, week 1', both in the
> overview, clickable, and browsable.
>
>Strange!
>
>Maybe a proxy problem?  Maybe someone's caching the page for too long?
>
>**Henrik

I don't know. I've had the problem on more than one computer. I stumbled on
a way to get in though. Type archives/ _twice_ in the URL and I get a
slightly different list of lists: CONLANG has a different # subscribers for
example. This takes me to the latest archives page.

Jeff

Emaelivpeith Sai Emrys 'sa <sai@...>:
> Try poking Sally Caves for pics. I know she took some, but I still
> haven't seen 'em. :-P

I have a picture of the flag flying at the con:

     http://www.flickr.com/photos/arthaey/135274149/

Unfortunately, I took it with my cameraphone, so the resolution's only
640 x 480.


--
AA
http://conlang.arthaey.com

Philip Newton skrev:
> On 7/31/06, Steven Williams <feurieaux@...> wrote:
>
>> --- Mark Reed <markjreed@...> wrote:
>>
>> > "Juice" is second-nature, but "sluice" still throws
>> > me.  Makes me want to say /sluwIs/ or something.
>>
>> Hold on, you mean it's _not_ pronounced [sluwIs]?
>> How's it really pronounced, then? [slu:s]?
>>
>> ...And I've been saying *that* for how many years
>> (well over a decade, since I first encountered the
>> word in print)?
>
>
> Same here -- you're not alone.
>
> In fact, I don't think I've ever heard that word spoken, so I only had
> my guessed spelling pronunciation to go on.
>
> But according to http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sluice, it
> does appear to be an exact rhyme for "juice" (and "abstruse", "loose",
> etc.). Who knew.
>
> Cheers,

The LPD gives [slu:s] as the one and only pronunciation.
I've always taken that for granted not only because of
_juice_, but also because of the Swedish (probable)
loanword _sluss_ [sl8s:], where /8/ is the standard
19th century rendering of /u:/ and /s:/ probably is
meant to render a voiceless final [s] rather than a
voiced [z] which would be a short /s/ -- Swedish
having no /z/ or [z], though nowadays some have [z]
as a marginal xenophone.

--

/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se

          Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant!
                                              (Tacitus)

I'm afraid the current situation in the Eastern
Mediterranean forces me to reinstate this signature...

On 8/2/06, Benct Philip Jonsson <bpjonsson@...> wrote:
> The LPD

The what?  To me that TLA means either "Line Printer Daemon" or "Local
Police Department".  :) Which dictionary is that?

--
Mark J. Reed <markjreed@...>

I have a nice picture of the flag, Sai, with John and Matt holding it up,
but I have been so beleagered (sp), and haven't had a chance to upload it.
I'm off to California day after tomorrow.  Is this urgent?

S.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Arthaey Angosii" <arthaey@...>
To: <CONLANG@...>
Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 2:06 AM
Subject: Re: Conlang flag description for fotw.net: please help proofread


> Emaelivpeith Sai Emrys 'sa <sai@...>:
>> Try poking Sally Caves for pics. I know she took some, but I still
>> haven't seen 'em. :-P
>
> I have a picture of the flag flying at the con:
>
>    http://www.flickr.com/photos/arthaey/135274149/
>
> Unfortunately, I took it with my cameraphone, so the resolution's only
> 640 x 480.
>
>
> --
> AA
> http://conlang.arthaey.com
>

Mark J. Reed skrev:
> On 8/2/06, Benct Philip Jonsson <bpjonsson@...> wrote:
>
>> The LPD
>
>
> The what?  To me that TLA means either "Line Printer Daemon" or "Local
> Police Department".  :) Which dictionary is that?
>

Longmans Pronounciation dictionary by J.C. Wells,
phonetics professor in London and of (X-)SAMPA
fame.  It covers both RP and GenAm, too.

There is a lot of great stuff on his homepage
<http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/wells/>

--

/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se

          Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant!
                                              (Tacitus)

I'm afraid the current situation in the Eastern
Mediterranean forces me to reinstate this signature...

Quoting Benct Philip Jonsson <bpjonsson@...>:


> The LPD gives [slu:s] as the one and only pronunciation.
> I've always taken that for granted not only because of
> _juice_, but also because of the Swedish (probable)
> loanword _sluss_ [sl8s:], where /8/ is the standard
> 19th century rendering of /u:/ and /s:/ probably is
> meant to render a voiceless final [s] rather than a
> voiced [z] which would be a short /s/ -- Swedish
> having no /z/ or [z], though nowadays some have [z]
> as a marginal xenophone.

_Nationalencyklopedins ordbok_ gives this note on the Swedish form:

HIST.: sedan 1545; av nederl. sluis el. l�gty. sluse med samma bet.; ur senlat.
exclusa, till lat. excludere 'utest�nga'

(HISTORY: Since 1545, from Dutch _sluis_ or Low German _sluse_ of the same
meaning; from Late Latin _exclusa_, from Latin _excludere_ "to lock out")


                                                     Andreas

No, uploaded them after all... sent about eight to Sai.  Hope you get them
alright.

Sally

I'm off to California early Friday morning.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sally Caves" <scaves@...>
To: <CONLANG@...>
Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 11:38 AM
Subject: Re: Conlang flag description for fotw.net: please help proofread


>I have a nice picture of the flag, Sai, with John and Matt holding it up,
>but I have been so beleagered (sp), and haven't had a chance to upload it.
>I'm off to California day after tomorrow.  Is this urgent?
>
> S.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Arthaey Angosii" <arthaey@...>
> To: <CONLANG@...>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 2:06 AM
> Subject: Re: Conlang flag description for fotw.net: please help proofread
>
>
>> Emaelivpeith Sai Emrys 'sa <sai@...>:
>>> Try poking Sally Caves for pics. I know she took some, but I still
>>> haven't seen 'em. :-P
>>
>> I have a picture of the flag flying at the con:
>>
>>    http://www.flickr.com/photos/arthaey/135274149/
>>
>> Unfortunately, I took it with my cameraphone, so the resolution's only
>> 640 x 480.
>>
>>
>> --
>> AA
>> http://conlang.arthaey.com
>>
>

The verb in Senjecas is marked only for mood:
-a = indicative,
-o = subjuncive,
-e = imperative.

I want to indicate a relative clause by a marked verb; there are no
relative pronouns or adverbs in Senjecas.  I want to indicate this
with a -u ending on the verb.  Can I call this the relative mood?

Since there is no definite or indefinite article in Senjecas, I
thought a generic form of the verb would be helpful.

nib�es ��svi ��rsa = "cheetahs run swiftly" or "the cheetahs run
swiftly."

I want to use the preposed particle _im_ to do this.  Thus:
nib�es ��svi im ��rsa could only mean "cheetahs run swiftly."

My question is whether this is a generic mood or generic aspect or
what.

Charlie

On Tue, 1 Aug 2006, Sai Emrys wrote:

> Try poking Sally Caves for pics. I know she took some, but I still
> haven't seen 'em. :-P
>
> I'd suggest expanding the authorship paragraph to include the major
> contributors, and include versions of the flag leading up to the final
> one. Also, that the copyright to it has been released into public
> domain for any appropriate use.

Including names of the major contributors can be done, if someone would be
so kind as to point me to the relevant threads in the archives. (That
draft summarizes everything I've been able to find out.)

Including non-final versions of the flag could be a rather daunting task,
however. Not only do these versions need to be tracked down, but they also
need to be re-drawn to conform to fotw.net's rather strict image policies.
So I think that part should be reserved for later.

--
Arnt Richard Johansen                                http://arj.nvg.org/
<Nixon> Etter revolusjonen har jeg ordnet meg slik at jeg f�r meg statue.
<Nixon> Har avtalt dette med n�kkelpersoner p� venstresiden.
<Nixon> Som takk for min innsats.
<Nixon> Det blir en 150m h�y statue i havnebassenget.
<Kre> skal du ha restaurant i hodet?

> Including names of the major contributors can be done, if someone would be
> so kind as to point me to the relevant threads in the archives. (That
> draft summarizes everything I've been able to find out.)

Check the threads where I was asking about it around last
December/January. I remember asking the same question, and having
someone answer it - plus point to a site that had previous versions.

  - Sai

[Repeating a reply made directly to Sai.  It seems the Reply-to
on my previous message was wrong, so Sai had replied to me, as
had Henrik.]

On Tue, 1 Aug 2006, Sai Emrys wrote:
>
> > However, for handwritten use, many of the symbols are too
> complex to write quickly and too rectilinear to readily
> approximate cursively.  Ideally, I think, a practical script for
> any language will enable quick and fluid reading and writing.
> And it doesn't hurt if it looks beautiful, too, but that's a bit
> harder to achieve.
>
> Perhaps have a separate variant of the script for handwriting?
>
> I at least see no need to impose handwriting limitations on
> computer-use script, or vice versa.


Hi Sai,

How's everything?  Hope you're meeting some success in your hunt for a job
or academic position that suits your strengths and interests.


Let me start with your second point first:
> I at least see no need to impose handwriting limitations on computer-use
script, or vice versa.

Nor I, especially where such a script is intended only for use on computer.


Regarding your first point:
> Perhaps have a separate variant of the script for handwriting?

Why not?  However, for a script that one intends also for handwriting, it
would still make sense to have the computer, print and handwritten
letterforms substantially similar, to minimise any potential confusion
through "cognitive dissonance".  Another, similar consideration for
handwritten forms is that they ought to be readily adaptable to different
writing instruments, eg fineline ballpoint, fineline or chiselpoint felttip,
calligrapher's (eg copperplate) nib, quill, brush, etc, without loss of
significant detail.  And as far as possible, such handwritten scripts should
be both beautiful and ergonomic.  However, none of these considerations
would prevent anyone from creating a script suitable only to one or a few
means of production.

Have you ever done any calligraphy, or written with a brush, eg sumie?
Personally, I find producing an admirable quality of calligraphic work in
Latin and Gothic scripts to be more tedious and time-consuming than the
output warrants, so I haven't done any of that for years.  However, writing
with a brush is capable of creating works that are at once organic and
intelligent, and of the highest artistic perfection.  I would return to
doing sumie, which I studied years ago, if I could spend enough time on it
to satisfy my own standards.

Regards and best wishes,
Yahya

------------------------------------------------
       Yahya Abdal-Aziz
       Yahya@...
       Melbourne PC User Group
       Convener, Graphics Interest Group
       Convener, Music Interest Group
------------------------------------------------

Hi Charlie,

On Wed, 2 Aug 2006 caeruleancentaur wrote:
>
> The verb in Senjecas is marked only for mood:
> -a = indicative,
> -o = subjuncive,
> -e = imperative.
>
> I want to indicate a relative clause by a marked verb; there are no
> relative pronouns or adverbs in Senjecas.  I want to indicate this
> with a -u ending on the verb.  Can I call this the relative mood?
>
> Since there is no definite or indefinite article in Senjecas, I
> thought a generic form of the verb would be helpful.
>
> nib�es ��svi ��rsa = "cheetahs run swiftly" or "the cheetahs run
> swiftly."
>
> I want to use the preposed particle _im_ to do this.  Thus:
> nib�es ��svi im ��rsa could only mean "cheetahs run swiftly."
>
> My question is whether this is a generic mood or generic aspect or
> what.


I think perhaps we need a little more information before we can answer that.
A fuller gloss would be helpful.  From what you wrote, the verb in your
sentences must be "��rsa", in the indicative, since no other word ends
in -a, -o or -e.  Which leaves me still to guess whether "cheetahs" is
"nib�es" or "��svi", and "swiftly" is "��svi" or "nib�es".  Nor can I tell
whether the noun for "cheetahs" incorporates a plural marker.

In effect, you want to inflect the verb with a prefix im- that indicates
generality?  Is that an abstract, philosophical generality, expressible as
"all cheetahs", or just indefiniteness, expressible as "some cheetahs"?  Do
you mark definiteness at all?

May I suggest that your translations are a little imprecise?  You see, you
have two sentences (one with "im"), both of which you translate as "cheetahs
run swiftly".  In English, that sentence is ambiguous unless we qualify
"cheetahs".  Does "nib�es ��svi im ��rsa" mean "all cheetahs run swiftly",
or instead "some cheetahs run swiftly"?

One more question in this barrage. ;-)  How is this construction a relative
clause?  Presumably, you're after something like "cheetahs, which run
swiftly, ...".

Regards,
Yahya

I apologize for the previous imprecision.
There are two questions in this message & I seem to have gottent
them mixed up!

Question #1---

The verb in Senjecas is marked only for mood:
-a = indicative,
-o = subjuncive,
-e = imperative.

I want to indicate a relative clause by a marked verb; there are no
relative pronouns or adverbs in Senjecas.  I want to indicate this
with a -u ending on the verb.  The language is SOV so the relative
clause would precede its noun.

The man who is standing is my father.

n-us-� s��t-u ��r-us m-�s�o �p-as �s-a.

3person-Class6.NOM.sg-EP(ENTHETIC)
stand-REL(ATIVE)
man-Class6.NOM.sg
1person-STATIVE.sg
father-NOM.sg
be-IND

Question #1: Can I call this the relative mood?

Question #2---

Without a definite article a sentence in the indicative mood could
be either general or specific.  E.g.:

nib-�es ��s-vi ��rs-a

cheetah-Class3.NOM.pl
swift-ADV
run-IND

That could mean either "The cheetahs run swiftly" (some specific
cheetahs I am watching) or "Cheetahs run swiftly" (all cheetahs).

I want to use the preposed particle (not prefix) _im_ to mark the
generic meaning.  Thus:

nib-�es ��s-v-' im ��rs-a could only mean "cheetahs run swiftly."

cheetah-Class3.NOM.pl
swift-ADV-EL(ISION)
GPTC (GENERIC PARTICLE)
run-IND

Question #2: Is this structure known as generic mood or generic
aspect or generic something else?

I hope this clarifies my previous muddled attempt.

Charlie

On Sat, 29 Jul 2006 22:52:39 -0700, Sylvia Sotomayor <terjemar@...>
wrote:

>On 7/29/06, Sally Caves <scaves@...> wrote:
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Sylvia Sotomayor" <terjemar@...>
>>
>> > ennāpren '(mathematical) rationality'. Getting this from sanity was a
>> > stretch, but needed for the congruence in English of mathematical
>> > rational and mentally rational. So, irrational numbers are actually
>> > insane numbers.
>>
>> I had trouble with this, too; I basically think that Teonaht would have
>> different terminology for mathematical concepts: I have a word for
>> "rational" (racodel), but it means "full of reason, full of logic."  The
>> opposite, "full of unreason" doesn't really describe pi.  Pi is
reasonable
>> on its own terms, just one's we can't fathom.  Irrational numbers:
>> unfathomable numbers? bottomless numbers?
>>
>
>Yes. I haven't made a word yet for 'ratio' but 'rational [number]' is
>probably related to that instead.
>
>> > tamōl 'root' from root for 'birth'
>>
>> Interesting!  Tamol means "child" in Teonaht.
>>
>The root mōl yields bases:
>emōl 'infant'
>emōlanen '(birth)-mother'
>mōl 'womb'
>mōlōn 'pregnant woman'
>ramōl 'embryo'
>and now tamōl
>
>The baseword for 'child' is īs, which is related to an old
>unproductive diminutive -isse, which is part of the word for 'pi'.
>
>--
>Sylvia Sotomayor
>terjemar@...
>www.terjemar.net
>=========================================================================

To: "Sally Caves" <scaves@...>
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 1:18 PM
Subject: OFFLIST: rational (WAS: Translation Challenge: Foucault's
Pendulum)

Hi.

---In conlang@yahoogroups.com, Sally Caves <scaves@...> wrote:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Sylvia Sotomayor" <terjemar@...>
>>ennāpren '(mathematical) rationality'. Getting this from sanity
>>was a stretch, but needed for the congruence in English of
>>mathematical rational and mentally rational. So, irrational
>>numbers are actually insane numbers.
>
>I had trouble with this, too; I basically think that Teonaht would
>have different terminology for mathematical concepts: I have a word
>for "rational" (racodel), but it means "full of reason, full of
>logic."  The opposite, "full of unreason" doesn't really describe
>pi.  Pi is reasonable on its own terms, just one's we can't
>fathom.  Irrational numbers: unfathomable numbers? bottomless
>numbers?

[snip]

I had assumed that you and Sylvia and everyone on list already knew
this; and maybe you do, but you're talking as if ignoring it, so:

The term to translate would be "incommensurable" rather
than "irrational".

In English the terms "rational" and "irrational", when applied to
_types_ of _numbers_, come from the word "ratio", not from some
synonym for "reason".

Older English translations used the term "commensurable number" to
mean a number which is the ratio of two whole numbers, and the
term "incommensurable number" to mean a number which is not such a
ratio.

---

On 7/29/06, Philip Newton <philip.newton@...> wrote:
> On 7/29/06, Kalle Bergman <seppu_kong@...> wrote:
> > I know Lojban has something
> > similar, with the article (or "sumti" whatever the
> > term is in lojban) "la".
>
> I believe "gadri" is the term you're looking for.
>
> I vaguely recall Dana Nutter's Sasxsek having a similar name-article, BICBW.
>

Lume has the prefix "sai'" for this purpose (for people names...other
kinds of things have other prefixes). --larry

li [Larry Sulky] mi tulis la

> On 7/29/06, Philip Newton <philip.newton@...> wrote:
> > On 7/29/06, Kalle Bergman <seppu_kong@...> wrote:
> > > I know Lojban has something
> > > similar, with the article (or "sumti" whatever the
> > > term is in lojban) "la".
> >
> > I believe "gadri" is the term you're looking for.
> >
> > I vaguely recall Dana Nutter's Sasxsek having a similar
> name-article, BICBW.

Yes.  All proper nouns are introduced with "li" (adj.) or "lu" (prep.).
What is considered a "name" in Sasxsek is more than what most languages
have.


> Lume has the prefix "sai'" for this purpose (for people names...other
> kinds of things have other prefixes). --larry




------------------------------
dejnx nxtxr / Dana Nutter

LI SASXSEK LATIS.
http://www.nutter.net/sasxsek

We all remember uses of morphological "number" to encode Familiarity and/or
Authority and/or Servility; and most of us have heard of using
morphological "person" for this purpose.

Has anyone heard of a natlang or a conlang that uses the same morphology
for "case" and also for Familiarity/Authority/Servility?

For instance;
Dative = Familiar
Ergative = Authoritative
Nominative/Absolutive = Servile?

------
eldin

>For instance;
>Dative = Familiar
>Ergative = Authoritative
>Nominative/Absolutive = Servile?
>
>
IIRC, a long time ago someone claimed to me that Korean case marking was
influenced in some way by status. I don't speak the language though, so
I can't tell you if it's true or not. Even if it is, I wouldn't expect
something like that because it completely screws up beyond repair the
purpose of case marking, which is to disambiguate arguments. :) Perhaps
some languages may erase case distinctions for low respect arguments,
much like inanimate (low power) arguments in Latin and many other
languages do not distinguish nominative and accusative?

Hallo!

On Thu, 3 Aug 2006 20:29:46 -0400, Eldin Raigmore wrote:

> Has anyone heard of a natlang or a conlang that uses the same morphology
> for "case" and also for Familiarity/Authority/Servility?

Something like that is found in Mark Rosenfelder's Axunashin, where an IE-ish
nominative/accusative system has developed into a dominant/subordinate system:

http://www.zompist.com/axunashin.htm#Cases:

... brought to you by the Weeping Elf

On Wed, 2 Aug 2006, Sai Emrys wrote:

>> Including names of the major contributors can be done, if someone would be
>> so kind as to point me to the relevant threads in the archives. (That
>> draft summarizes everything I've been able to find out.)
>
> Check the threads where I was asking about it around last
> December/January. I remember asking the same question, and having
> someone answer it - plus point to a site that had previous versions.

Ah, thanks. Here is the new version.

The conlang flag represents both the Conlang mailing list, and language
inventors and constructed language aficionados worldwide. It was flown at the
1st Language Construction Conference in Berkeley, California in 2006.

The general idea of the conlang flag was decided as a result of a poll of the
subscribers of the Conlang mailing list in 2004. The first proposal that
included the Tower of Babel was submitted by Jan van Steenbergen, and the first
proposal that included a rising sun was submitted by David Peterson. Multiple
list members submitted designs that combined the two elements, the first of
which was by Leland Paul.

The final version of the flag was drawn by Christian Thalmann, who has released
it to the public domain.

Symbolism
The flag depicts a silhouette of a ziggurat in front of a rising sun. The
ziggurat is a reference to the biblical story of the Tower of Babel,
representing language and linguistic diversity. The terraced structure of the
ziggurat is also an iconic representation of the way a typical artistic language
is created piece by piece, and is never quite completed.

The rising sun represents the rise in notoriety and recognition of language
construction as an art form.

An earlier proposal for the design had a red sky. This was later changed to
purple, to avoid the association with anarchism that the red-black combination
would have. In addition, purple is seen to symbolise creativity.

Suggested Pantone colours
The following Pantone values were used for the flags flown at the 1st LCC:

black: Pantone Black
yellow: PMS 123
purple: PMS 527

--
Arnt Richard Johansen                                http://arj.nvg.org/
On the Semantic Web, it's too hard to prove you're not a dog. --Bill de h�ra