It might be distracting to switch extremely frequently.  Some people might
be able to do this but others not.

Ultimately 3 developers is less than ideal for a paired programming effort,
but reality is reality.  Pair when you can, and when someone is sitting
there with nothing else to do (i.e. all other things I suggested have been
exhausted), have him/her code, with the expectation that the code produced
will have to be subsequently reviewed.

Part of pairing is about more effective, continual development.  Hypothesize
that coding done by one developer will take longer to produce, when review
time is factored in and when other considerations (such as higher likelihood
of one person bogging down, higher likelihood of introducing defects, etc.)
are factored in.  Run some simple metrics against things to prove out the
hypothesis.

You may also find that there *is* plenty to do for the third person.  There
is always refactoring that can be done (while the rule is that you're not
supposed to change the code, potential refactorings can at least be
identified).  If you want to relax the rules, you could consider that
refactoring could be done in absence of a pair, but no tests could be
modified and no new functionality added.  You'd still need to have someone
review the refactorings (particularly for design considerations).

Another suggestion, and I've done this, is that the third person writes
tests only, and writes the code to flesh out the tests when able to pair.

I'd move forward with the XP experiment, regardless of what tactic you
choose.  Come up with a simple set of rules that work best for you; modify
as you find out how well things work or don't work.  Part of XP is adapting
it to your environment.  The pairing is in there for many good reasons, just
make sure you compensate for things lost when not pairing.

I'm anxious to hear what you encounter.

-Jeff

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Finney [mailto:mfinney@...]
> Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 4:29 PM
> To: 'cosAgile@yahoogroups.com'
> Subject: RE: [cosAgile] A quick question
>
>
> Does this satisfy the continuous positive/negative grunts
> that each driver
> is supposed to get from his/her pair?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Allison, Tim [mailto:tallison@...]
> Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 11:04 AM
> To: cosAgile@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [cosAgile] A quick question
>
>
> To me, it still seems problematical.  Yeah, if you have 9-13
> developers
> there is a good chance that random appointments, meetings,
> and vacations
> help keep everybody paired up.  Obviously, there has to be
> some coordination
> or small numbers of even programmers could be an issue due to
> absences.
> But, if one third of your team is not productively
> programming for your core
> hours - every day, you have a problem.
>
> If I might borrow some terminology from physics, I think
> "virtual pairing"
> might work.  When three people are simultaneously coding, the
> man without a
> keyboard could move from terminal to terminal; in effect,
> switching very
> frequently.  You can't play tag with the keyboards - "hey I'm
> here, give the
> keyboard and go get the one Bob has" - because you get none
> of the benefits
> of pairing. But it could help, when you run dry to say, here
> "Bob, take this
> for a while, I'm going to see what Alice is doing."  While Ted is in
> "cogitating mode", he could go back and forth, as seems
> helpful, and then
> take over when either Alice or Bob is ready.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Finney [mailto:mfinney@...]
> Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 10:25 AM
> To: 'cosAgile@yahoogroups.com'
> Subject: RE: [cosAgile] A quick question
>
>
> Also, you may find 3 a perfect number because 1 out of the
> three may have
> that doctor's appointment, or other such thing.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Langr [mailto:JLangr@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 2:28 PM
> To: 'cosAgile@yahoogroups.com'
> Subject: RE: [cosAgile] A quick question
>
>
> switch even more frequently.
>
> * even if you do have even numbers, developers aren't pairing
> all 8 hours
> each day.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Allison, Tim [mailto:tallison@...]
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 1:35 PM
> > To: cosAgile@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [cosAgile] A quick question
> >
> >
> > Either 2 or 3.  Which brings me to my question.  How do you
> > pair program
> > with small odd numbers of programmers
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> cosAgile-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



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How about if the monitors are set up so that the person without the keyboard
can watch both screens?  Then the typist assumes any grunt applies to him.

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Finney [mailto:mfinney@...]
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 4:29 PM
To: 'cosAgile@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [cosAgile] A quick question


Does this satisfy the continuous positive/negative grunts that each driver
is supposed to get from his/her pair?

-----Original Message-----
From: Allison, Tim [mailto:tallison@...]
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 11:04 AM
To: cosAgile@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [cosAgile] A quick question


To me, it still seems problematical.  Yeah, if you have 9-13 developers
there is a good chance that random appointments, meetings, and vacations
help keep everybody paired up.  Obviously, there has to be some coordination
or small numbers of even programmers could be an issue due to absences.
But, if one third of your team is not productively programming for your core
hours - every day, you have a problem.

If I might borrow some terminology from physics, I think "virtual pairing"
might work.  When three people are simultaneously coding, the man without a
keyboard could move from terminal to terminal; in effect, switching very
frequently.  You can't play tag with the keyboards - "hey I'm here, give the
keyboard and go get the one Bob has" - because you get none of the benefits
of pairing. But it could help, when you run dry to say, here "Bob, take this
for a while, I'm going to see what Alice is doing."  While Ted is in
"cogitating mode", he could go back and forth, as seems helpful, and then
take over when either Alice or Bob is ready.

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Finney [mailto:mfinney@...]
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 10:25 AM
To: 'cosAgile@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [cosAgile] A quick question


Also, you may find 3 a perfect number because 1 out of the three may have
that doctor's appointment, or other such thing.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Langr [mailto:JLangr@...]
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 2:28 PM
To: 'cosAgile@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [cosAgile] A quick question


switch even more frequently.

* even if you do have even numbers, developers aren't pairing all 8 hours
each day.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Allison, Tim [mailto:tallison@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 1:35 PM
> To: cosAgile@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [cosAgile] A quick question
>
>
> Either 2 or 3.  Which brings me to my question.  How do you
> pair program
> with small odd numbers of programmers


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Does this satisfy the continuous positive/negative grunts that each driver
is supposed to get from his/her pair?

-----Original Message-----
From: Allison, Tim [mailto:tallison@...]
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 11:04 AM
To: cosAgile@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [cosAgile] A quick question


To me, it still seems problematical.  Yeah, if you have 9-13 developers
there is a good chance that random appointments, meetings, and vacations
help keep everybody paired up.  Obviously, there has to be some coordination
or small numbers of even programmers could be an issue due to absences.
But, if one third of your team is not productively programming for your core
hours - every day, you have a problem.

If I might borrow some terminology from physics, I think "virtual pairing"
might work.  When three people are simultaneously coding, the man without a
keyboard could move from terminal to terminal; in effect, switching very
frequently.  You can't play tag with the keyboards - "hey I'm here, give the
keyboard and go get the one Bob has" - because you get none of the benefits
of pairing. But it could help, when you run dry to say, here "Bob, take this
for a while, I'm going to see what Alice is doing."  While Ted is in
"cogitating mode", he could go back and forth, as seems helpful, and then
take over when either Alice or Bob is ready.

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Finney [mailto:mfinney@...]
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 10:25 AM
To: 'cosAgile@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [cosAgile] A quick question


Also, you may find 3 a perfect number because 1 out of the three may have
that doctor's appointment, or other such thing.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Langr [mailto:JLangr@...]
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 2:28 PM
To: 'cosAgile@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [cosAgile] A quick question


switch even more frequently.

* even if you do have even numbers, developers aren't pairing all 8 hours
each day.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Allison, Tim [mailto:tallison@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 1:35 PM
> To: cosAgile@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [cosAgile] A quick question
>
>
> Either 2 or 3.  Which brings me to my question.  How do you
> pair program
> with small odd numbers of programmers


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To me, it still seems problematical.  Yeah, if you have 9-13 developers
there is a good chance that random appointments, meetings, and vacations
help keep everybody paired up.  Obviously, there has to be some coordination
or small numbers of even programmers could be an issue due to absences.
But, if one third of your team is not productively programming for your core
hours - every day, you have a problem.

If I might borrow some terminology from physics, I think "virtual pairing"
might work.  When three people are simultaneously coding, the man without a
keyboard could move from terminal to terminal; in effect, switching very
frequently.  You can't play tag with the keyboards - "hey I'm here, give the
keyboard and go get the one Bob has" - because you get none of the benefits
of pairing. But it could help, when you run dry to say, here "Bob, take this
for a while, I'm going to see what Alice is doing."  While Ted is in
"cogitating mode", he could go back and forth, as seems helpful, and then
take over when either Alice or Bob is ready.

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Finney [mailto:mfinney@...]
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 10:25 AM
To: 'cosAgile@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [cosAgile] A quick question


Also, you may find 3 a perfect number because 1 out of the three may have
that doctor's appointment, or other such thing.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Langr [mailto:JLangr@...]
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 2:28 PM
To: 'cosAgile@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [cosAgile] A quick question


switch even more frequently.

* even if you do have even numbers, developers aren't pairing all 8 hours
each day.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Allison, Tim [mailto:tallison@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 1:35 PM
> To: cosAgile@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [cosAgile] A quick question
>
>
> Either 2 or 3.  Which brings me to my question.  How do you
> pair program
> with small odd numbers of programmers


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Also, you may find 3 a perfect number because 1 out of the three may have
that doctor's appointment, or other such thing.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Langr [mailto:JLangr@...]
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 2:28 PM
To: 'cosAgile@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [cosAgile] A quick question


switch even more frequently.

* even if you do have even numbers, developers aren't pairing all 8 hours
each day.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Allison, Tim [mailto:tallison@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 1:35 PM
> To: cosAgile@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [cosAgile] A quick question
>
>
> Either 2 or 3.  Which brings me to my question.  How do you
> pair program
> with small odd numbers of programmers

For those of you who haven't seen this yet...

The front cover of the August Software Development Magazine has a feature
article called the The Agile Manifesto.  The article is written by Martin Fowler
and Bob Martin.

Andrew

Jeff Langr wrote:

> FYI.  Mr. Fowler is an entertaining speaker; make it to this if you can.
> Mike Two also has some very interesting things to say about XP and how it's
> used at ThoughtWorks.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alex Viggio [mailto:aviggio@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 10:35 AM
> To: xpdenver@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [xpdenver] Martin Fowler & Michael Two at XP Denver next
> Thursday
>
> Just a quick reminder that Martin Fowler and Michael Two are scheduled to
> speak at a special XP Denver meeting next Thursday, July 19. As always, the
> event is free and open to local high tech professionals.
>
> For those of you not familiar with Martin Fowler, he is the Chief Scientist
> for ThoughtWorks, a leading custom e-business application and platform
> development firm. For a decade he was an independent consultant pioneering
> the use of objects in developing business information systems. He's worked
> with technologies including Smalltalk, C++, object and relational databases,
> and EJB with domains including leasing, payroll, derivatives trading and
> healthcare. He is particularly known for his work in patterns, the UML,
> lightweight methodologies, and refactoring. His top selling books include:
> Refactoring, the award winning UML Distilled, Planning Extreme Programming,
> and Analysis Patterns.
>
> Michael Two is a senior developer and XP advocate for ThoughtWorks. Prior to
> ThoughtWorks, Michael was a senior software engineer for Campbell Software,
> Inc. Michael has been a featured speaker at XP Immersion 4 and SD West and
> holds a Bachelor of Science degree from Loyola University in Chicago.
>
> The event is being held at the Qwest auditorium in Downtown Denver, which
> seats around 120. We plan on starting around 5:00pm, but final details will
> follow this week and will also be posted on our website at
> http://www.xpdenver.org/martin_fowler.html. Be sure to mark the event on
> your calendar so that you arrive early to get a seat.
>
> Thanks,
> - Alex
>
> www.xpdenver.org
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> xpdenver-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> cosAgile-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

All programmers are odd.
Pairing is a bit more difficult with odd numbers, particularly with only 3.
When pairing:

* you're not joined at the hip.  Pairs should switch reasonably often, at
least a couple times per day.  For 3 developers, switch even more
frequently.

* even if you do have even numbers, developers aren't pairing all 8 hours
each day.  My experience has shown about 3 hours in the morning (9 - noon)
and 3 hours in the afternoon (1-4) is good, and matches what most companies
consider "core hours".  Outside that time, there's plenty of other things to
do in most cases: spikes, looking through code for refactorings,
communication with other groups, documentation needed, work with customer to
help develop acceptance tests, email, self education, etc.

By the way, in terms of pairing and cost benefit (irrespective of your
question), there's an Alistair Cockburn/Laurie Williams article at:

http://members.aol.com/humansandt/papers/pairprogrammingcostbene/pairprogram
mingcostbene.htm

-Jeff-
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Allison, Tim [mailto:tallison@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 1:35 PM
> To: cosAgile@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [cosAgile] A quick question
>
>
> I am hoping to get on a project here in which we will be able
> to use at
> least some of the XP practices.  This would be a small group
> of programmers.
> Either 2 or 3.  Which brings me to my question.  How do you
> pair program
> with small odd numbers of programmers (as opposed to small
> numbers of odd
> programmers).
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> cosAgile-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

I am hoping to get on a project here in which we will be able to use at
least some of the XP practices.  This would be a small group of programmers.
Either 2 or 3.  Which brings me to my question.  How do you pair program
with small odd numbers of programmers (as opposed to small numbers of odd
programmers).

FYI.  Mr. Fowler is an entertaining speaker; make it to this if you can.
Mike Two also has some very interesting things to say about XP and how it's
used at ThoughtWorks.

-----Original Message-----
From: Alex Viggio [mailto:aviggio@...]
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 10:35 AM
To: xpdenver@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [xpdenver] Martin Fowler & Michael Two at XP Denver next
Thursday


Just a quick reminder that Martin Fowler and Michael Two are scheduled to
speak at a special XP Denver meeting next Thursday, July 19. As always, the
event is free and open to local high tech professionals.

For those of you not familiar with Martin Fowler, he is the Chief Scientist
for ThoughtWorks, a leading custom e-business application and platform
development firm. For a decade he was an independent consultant pioneering
the use of objects in developing business information systems. He's worked
with technologies including Smalltalk, C++, object and relational databases,
and EJB with domains including leasing, payroll, derivatives trading and
healthcare. He is particularly known for his work in patterns, the UML,
lightweight methodologies, and refactoring. His top selling books include:
Refactoring, the award winning UML Distilled, Planning Extreme Programming,
and Analysis Patterns.

Michael Two is a senior developer and XP advocate for ThoughtWorks. Prior to
ThoughtWorks, Michael was a senior software engineer for Campbell Software,
Inc. Michael has been a featured speaker at XP Immersion 4 and SD West and
holds a Bachelor of Science degree from Loyola University in Chicago.

The event is being held at the Qwest auditorium in Downtown Denver, which
seats around 120. We plan on starting around 5:00pm, but final details will
follow this week and will also be posted on our website at
http://www.xpdenver.org/martin_fowler.html. Be sure to mark the event on
your calendar so that you arrive early to get a seat.

Thanks,
- Alex


www.xpdenver.org

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no need to apologize.  He ran the course, but I'm not sure
how many people showed up.

-Jeff

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Allison, Tim [mailto:tallison@...]
> Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 10:58 AM
> To: cosAgile@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [cosAgile] XP overview course
>
>
> Sorry, I just got back from vacation.  I hope you ended up
> with more than
> one attendee.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Langr [mailto:JLangr@...]
> Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 1:13 PM
> To: 'cosAgile@yahoogroups.com'
> Subject: [cosAgile] XP overview course
>
>
> One of the other Object Mentor consultants is offering a
> 2-day XP overview
> course up in the Denver area July 2-3, and only has one
> person signed up...
> so, if you know anyone who's interested, have 'em send me an email.
>
> I'll keep these plugs to a minimum...
>
> -Jeff L.
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> cosAgile-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> cosAgile-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Sorry, I just got back from vacation.  I hope you ended up with more than
one attendee.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Langr [mailto:JLangr@...]
Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 1:13 PM
To: 'cosAgile@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: [cosAgile] XP overview course


One of the other Object Mentor consultants is offering a 2-day XP overview
course up in the Denver area July 2-3, and only has one person signed up...
so, if you know anyone who's interested, have 'em send me an email.

I'll keep these plugs to a minimum...

-Jeff L.

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ok,

I'll be out the third Wednesday this month.  I'm hoping Michael will be able
to coordinate a meeting, be it that date or another.  Let's see some
suggestions for topics for the next meeting, regardless of when it occurs.

-Jeff

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Allison, Tim [mailto:tallison@...]
> Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 10:49 AM
> To: cosAgile@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [cosAgile] The group exists
>
>
> Thanks for getting this going.
>
> I just got back from vacation, and go again in a few weeks!
> (I did not go
> on vacation last summer, so I'm catching up.)  By early
> August, hopefully,
> I'll be back at full speed.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mfinney@... [mailto:mfinney@...]
> Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2001 8:12 PM
> To: cosAgile@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [cosAgile] The group exists
>
>
>
> People form groups because they want things.
>
> Here is something I propose:
>
> If someone wants a topic presented to them, email the group and say
> what topic you are hungry for.  If someone wants to do a presentation
> on that topic, email the group and tell us.  If you need a room, email
> the group and ask.  Let's support each other's XP needs.  We can
> provide each other solutions.  Presentations are not the only solution
> though.
>
> Some possible forms that solutions take on are:
>     offline and in person
>        via group discussion (many to many)
>        presentations (1 to many)
>     online discussions
>        via email
>        via http://c2.com/wiki
>     in person training on
>        xUnit - JUnit or other
>        PairProgramming
>        PlanningReleases
>        PlanningIterations
>        other parts of XP
>
> The biggest strength that this Colorado Springs XP User Group has is
> its ability to serve the members with Colorado Springs specific needs.
> Because it is an XP group, members can be XP Customers, XP Managers,
> XP Trackers, XP Programmers, XP Testers, ...   All those members have
> needs.  We share common goals.
>
> Let me begin: I hunger for knowing what Colorado Springs XP companies
> exist.  So, I wrote a paper expressing this hunger.  You don't have to
> write papers.  Writing the paper helped me organize my thoughts.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cosAgile/files/ideal_agile_org.html has
> been written.  It may need to be expanded to include other wants and
> solutions people have applied to those wants.  Those that want
> something a lot will help make that something happen.
>
> http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?CsXpCompanies has been created.  Fill it in
> with the knowledge you learn.  Watch it grow with the knowledge other
> people share.
>
> In XP, you are supposed to own the process.  In this XP group, let's
> own its actions and the services it provides.
>
> Michael Finney
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> cosAgile-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> cosAgile-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Thanks for getting this going.

I just got back from vacation, and go again in a few weeks!  (I did not go
on vacation last summer, so I'm catching up.)  By early August, hopefully,
I'll be back at full speed.

-----Original Message-----
From: mfinney@... [mailto:mfinney@...]
Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2001 8:12 PM
To: cosAgile@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [cosAgile] The group exists



People form groups because they want things.

Here is something I propose:

If someone wants a topic presented to them, email the group and say
what topic you are hungry for.  If someone wants to do a presentation
on that topic, email the group and tell us.  If you need a room, email
the group and ask.  Let's support each other's XP needs.  We can
provide each other solutions.  Presentations are not the only solution
though.

Some possible forms that solutions take on are:
     offline and in person
        via group discussion (many to many)
        presentations (1 to many)
     online discussions
        via email
        via http://c2.com/wiki
     in person training on
        xUnit - JUnit or other
        PairProgramming
        PlanningReleases
        PlanningIterations
        other parts of XP

The biggest strength that this Colorado Springs XP User Group has is
its ability to serve the members with Colorado Springs specific needs.
Because it is an XP group, members can be XP Customers, XP Managers,
XP Trackers, XP Programmers, XP Testers, ...   All those members have
needs.  We share common goals.

Let me begin: I hunger for knowing what Colorado Springs XP companies
exist.  So, I wrote a paper expressing this hunger.  You don't have to
write papers.  Writing the paper helped me organize my thoughts.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cosAgile/files/ideal_agile_org.html has
been written.  It may need to be expanded to include other wants and
solutions people have applied to those wants.  Those that want
something a lot will help make that something happen.

http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?CsXpCompanies has been created.  Fill it in
with the knowledge you learn.  Watch it grow with the knowledge other
people share.

In XP, you are supposed to own the process.  In this XP group, let's
own its actions and the services it provides.

Michael Finney



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
cosAgile-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

I run a pair of 2-day public courses from time to time in the Springs.
Check out the Object Mentor web site for schedules.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Finney [mailto:mfinney@...]
> Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 12:55 PM
> To: 'cosAgile@yahoogroups.com'
> Subject: RE: [cosAgile] XP overview course
>
>
> Free plugs are always welcome.  :)   Anything for Colorado Springs?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Langr [mailto:JLangr@...]
> Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 1:13 PM
> To: 'cosAgile@yahoogroups.com'
> Subject: [cosAgile] XP overview course
>
>
> One of the other Object Mentor consultants is offering a
> 2-day XP overview
> course up in the Denver area July 2-3, and only has one
> person signed up...
> so, if you know anyone who's interested, have 'em send me an email.
>
> I'll keep these plugs to a minimum...
>
> -Jeff L.
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> cosAgile-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> cosAgile-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Free plugs are always welcome.  :)   Anything for Colorado Springs?

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Langr [mailto:JLangr@...]
Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 1:13 PM
To: 'cosAgile@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: [cosAgile] XP overview course


One of the other Object Mentor consultants is offering a 2-day XP overview
course up in the Denver area July 2-3, and only has one person signed up...
so, if you know anyone who's interested, have 'em send me an email.

I'll keep these plugs to a minimum...

-Jeff L.

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
cosAgile-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

One of the other Object Mentor consultants is offering a 2-day XP overview
course up in the Denver area July 2-3, and only has one person signed up...
so, if you know anyone who's interested, have 'em send me an email.

I'll keep these plugs to a minimum...

-Jeff L.

info from Ron Jeffries off the extremeprogramming list:

Short article in Forbes (07.09.01, Bernie Ecclestone on the cover) about
Evant and XP. It's fluffy, positive, good press.

Check it out. Read it online by signing up at Forbes (get the free issues
while you are at it), or read it at the newstand, it's only one page.
------------

http://www.forbes.com

the full link:

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2001/0709/142.html

People form groups because they want things.

Here is something I propose:

If someone wants a topic presented to them, email the group and say
what topic you are hungry for.  If someone wants to do a presentation
on that topic, email the group and tell us.  If you need a room, email
the group and ask.  Let's support each other's XP needs.  We can
provide each other solutions.  Presentations are not the only solution
though.

Some possible forms that solutions take on are:
     offline and in person
        via group discussion (many to many)
        presentations (1 to many)
     online discussions
        via email
        via http://c2.com/wiki
     in person training on
        xUnit - JUnit or other
        PairProgramming
        PlanningReleases
        PlanningIterations
        other parts of XP

The biggest strength that this Colorado Springs XP User Group has is
its ability to serve the members with Colorado Springs specific needs.
Because it is an XP group, members can be XP Customers, XP Managers,
XP Trackers, XP Programmers, XP Testers, ...   All those members have
needs.  We share common goals.

Let me begin: I hunger for knowing what Colorado Springs XP companies
exist.  So, I wrote a paper expressing this hunger.  You don't have to
write papers.  Writing the paper helped me organize my thoughts.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cosAgile/files/ideal_agile_org.html has
been written.  It may need to be expanded to include other wants and
solutions people have applied to those wants.  Those that want
something a lot will help make that something happen.

http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?CsXpCompanies has been created.  Fill it in
with the knowledge you learn.  Watch it grow with the knowledge other
people share.

In XP, you are supposed to own the process.  In this XP group, let's
own its actions and the services it provides.

Michael Finney

I'm going to try to make it but not sure...

Andrew

Jeff Langr wrote:

> There will be a meeting of the Colorado Springs XP Users' Group this
> Wednesday, June 20.  The meeting will be hosted by Tim Allison at his
> Logicon offices on the south end of town.
>
> Agenda:
>
> 6:30pm - 7pm  Social time
> 7pm - 8pm     Test-first design demo/presentation
> 8pm - 9pm     Q&A; user group planning discussions
>
> Contact either Jeff Langr (JLangr@...) or Michael Finney
> (mfinney@...) for more information.  Please forward this email to
> anyone else who might be interested.
>
> Directions to the meeting:
>
> Take I-25 to South Circle, at the south end of town.
> Go east (left, if coming from the north.)
> Go through the light that handles people heading north.
> Take the second light, or first road, to left (Janitell).
> Turn right into the parking lot for the 12 story building with "University
> of Phoenix" sign.
> Tim Allison will be at the 11th floor waiting to meet people.
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> cosAgile-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

If you want, please post this to the XP Denver mailing list since we have
some people who live in South Denver.

- Alex

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Langr" <JLangr@...>
To: "'cosAgile@egroups.com'" <cosAgile@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 4:28 PM
Subject: [cosAgile] Colorado Springs XPUG meeting


> There will be a meeting of the Colorado Springs XP Users' Group this
> Wednesday, June 20.  The meeting will be hosted by Tim Allison at his
> Logicon offices on the south end of town.
>
> Agenda:
>
> 6:30pm - 7pm  Social time
> 7pm - 8pm     Test-first design demo/presentation
> 8pm - 9pm     Q&A; user group planning discussions
>
> Contact either Jeff Langr (JLangr@...) or Michael Finney
> (mfinney@...) for more information.  Please forward this email to
> anyone else who might be interested.
>
> Directions to the meeting:
>
> Take I-25 to South Circle, at the south end of town.
> Go east (left, if coming from the north.)
> Go through the light that handles people heading north.
> Take the second light, or first road, to left (Janitell).
> Turn right into the parking lot for the 12 story building with "University
> of Phoenix" sign.
> Tim Allison will be at the 11th floor waiting to meet people.
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> cosAgile-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

There will be a meeting of the Colorado Springs XP Users' Group this
Wednesday, June 20.  The meeting will be hosted by Tim Allison at his
Logicon offices on the south end of town.

Agenda:

6:30pm - 7pm  Social time
7pm - 8pm     Test-first design demo/presentation
8pm - 9pm     Q&A; user group planning discussions

Contact either Jeff Langr (JLangr@...) or Michael Finney
(mfinney@...) for more information.  Please forward this email to
anyone else who might be interested.

Directions to the meeting:

Take I-25 to South Circle, at the south end of town.
Go east (left, if coming from the north.)
Go through the light that handles people heading north.
Take the second light, or first road, to left (Janitell).
Turn right into the parking lot for the 12 story building with "University
of Phoenix" sign.
Tim Allison will be at the 11th floor waiting to meet people.

Other topics:
   How to be a good pair programmer :( http://www.pairprogramming.com/ and
http://collaboration.csc.ncsu.edu/laurie/Papers/Kindergarten.PDF may help
(ACM owns copyright))


Michael Finney
Sun Certified Programmer for the Java 2 Platform
Sun Certified Developer for the Java 2 Platform


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Langr [SMTP:JLangr@...]
> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 10:34 AM
> To: 'cosAgile@yahoogroups.com'
> Subject: RE: [cosAgile] some structure...
>
> I'd like to constrain the group to focus on agile methodologies for now,
> but
> that doesn't preclude the discussion of OO topics.  XP hinges on a good
> understanding of OO for it to work properly.  There are raging discussions
> of design patterns on the yahoo XP group, for example.
>
> Send out specifics of what OO stuff you are interested in.  Personally,
> here
> are some of the topics I'd like to see addressed:
>
>  * RUP
>  * refactoring
>  * design patterns and "doing the simplest thing that could possibly
> work"
>  * SCRUM, Crystal, ASD, etc.
>  * agile vs. heavyweight processes
>  * organization adoption of agile processes
>  * test-first design
>  * OO design principles
>
> I am more than happy to come out and talk anyone at worldcom.  Let's
> discuss
> this offline.
>
> -Jeff
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Andrew Washburn [mailto:Andrew.Washburn@...]
> > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 10:20 AM
> > To: cosAgile@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [cosAgile] some structure...
> >
> >
> > Jeff,
> >
> > I was thinking about it and most if not all the people in the
> > room are doing OO
> > so what if we broaden the group to a general OO group with a
> > bent towards best
> > practices eg patterns, methodologies.  Seems to me XP may be
> > slightly too narrow
> > going forward.
> >
> > Also, what would it cost to bring you in to talk to a couple
> > managers and my sr
> > manager as well as some of their workforce.  Nothing too
> > formal just to let them
> > know what XP is (most detail around the practices that make
> > up XP).  Between an
> > hour to 2 hours.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Andrew
> >
> > Jeff Langr wrote:
> >
> > > Welcome Michael Finney, who will be co-founder of cosAgile.  Michael
> > > founded the Pikes Peak Java Developers Group, and was getting ready
> > > to start up an XP group as well.
> > >
> > > We'll build a bit of structure into the group.  For now, we'll need
> > > president, information manager, and event manager roles to be
> > > filled.  Let me know if you're interested in any of the roles.
> > >
> > > -Jeff
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > cosAgile-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> cosAgile-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> cosAgile-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

Yeah, that's the quote I disagree with.  In order to succeed, XP, like any
other process, requires at least some people on the team who know what
they're doing.  It also requires that people who don't know what they're
doing to actually try.  It doesn't require superstars, but dedicated
employees.  What I like about XP is that its practices integrate a means for
non-superstars to come up to speed quickly to provide value to the project.

The "individual solos" thing makes no sense in light of XP practices.  Also,
XP is not hard to learn, but it is hard to do and requires practice, like
any discipline.

Rational took out an 8-side (very expensive) pullout poster ad in Software
Development a couple months ago.  It was a fear-based response to XP.  I
think the main counter of RUP is that it's "XP and so much more."

_Jeff

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Finney [mailto:mfinney@...]
> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 1:43 PM
> To: 'cosAgile@yahoogroups.com'
> Subject: [cosAgile] RUP, dX, Agile all the way
>
>
> I read the article.  The author's view is something interesting:
> "Both jazz and XP, he argues, favor superstars whose
> excellence is often
> hard to emulate. Both favor small groups, especially as
> things get more
> complex. Both limit performance to individual solos, again to control
> complexity. And both are hard to learn."
>
> The following is very interesting:
> From the above URL,
> "http://www.martinfowler.com/articles/newMethodology.html#N790
> "  Is RUP an
> agile method?
> "Another tack at agile RUP is Robert Martin's dX process
> <http://www.objectmentor.com/publications/RUPvsXP.pdf>. The
> dx process is a
> fully compliant instance of RUP, that just happens to be
> identical to XP
> (turn dX upside down to see the joke). dX is designed for
> folks that have to
> use RUP, but want to use XP. As such it is both XP and RUP
> and thus a good
> example of the agile use of RUP. "
>
> Michael Finney
> Sun Certified Programmer for the Java 2 Platform
> Sun Certified Developer for the Java 2 Platform
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jeff Langr [SMTP:JLangr@...]
> > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 11:47 AM
> > To: 'cosAgile@yahoogroups.com'
> > Subject: RE: [cosAgile] some structure...
> >
> > Thanks for the info, Alex.  I'll see if I can make it up
> for the Booch
> > talk.
> > He's given some talks recently regarding XP
> > (http://www.rational.com/news/inthenews/gbooch_041301.jsp),
> as noted on
> > the
> > XP list.  (I noted that some of his talk appeared to be misleading.)
> >
> > -Jeff
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Alex Viggio [mailto:aviggio@...]
> > > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 10:49 AM
> > > To: cosAgile@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: Re: [cosAgile] some structure...
> > >
> > >
> > > There is an OO-specific group that meets in South Denver,
> and possibly
> > > Castle Rock. FROST (Front Range Object Study Group) is run by
> > > Jim Densmore.
> > > Speaking of RUP, he has Grady Booch at their next meeting
> (see below),
> > > although he wants to keep it small so RSVP ASAP to see if he
> > > still has room.
> > > Maybe your two groups can interact when the topics touch on OO.
> > >
> > > - Alex
> > >
> > > ***
> > >
> > > A FROST meeting?  Yes!  I want to start FROST up again.
> > > While we're at it,
> > > we might as well start with a Bang: our speaker for the next
> > > FROST meeting
> > > is Grady Booch, who will talk about the evolving relationship
> > > between O-O
> > > and a solid, full life-cycle development process.
> > >
> > > FROST MEETING
> > >
> > > * Speaker: Grady Booch
> > > * When:    Tuesday, 22 May 2001
> > > * Time:    7:00pm, 1.5-2 hours
> > > * Where:    Denver Marriott Tech Center
> > >     4900 South Syracuse Street, DTC
> > >     phone 303-779-1100
> > >     in the Evergreen A room
> > >
> > > Please come!  Also, there is a little time before Grady's
> talk and he
> > > indicated that he's somewhat flexible about the topic, if you
> > > would like to
> > > see him speak about anything in particular surrounding the
> > > topic, please
> > > email me and I'll collect the responses.
> > >
> > > Also, please be prepared to engage in a short dialog at the
> > > meeting (or
> > > email too, that's fine) about:
> > >
> > > * where?  where should FROST meet?  Back in Castle Rock?
> > > * when?  is the last Tuesday of the month in the evenings
> still good?
> > > * monthly?  or how often?
> > > * topics?  what are your current topics of interest?
> what speakers
> > > would like me to try and find?
> > > * what can YOU talk about?  FROST traditionally divides
> its meetings
> > > roughly equally between outside speakers and YOU, its
> > > members.  i know some
> > > of you have things of interest we'd like to hear more about.
> > >
> > > Thanks!  --Jim
> > >
> > >
> > >   --Jim Densmore
> > >   Rational Software - the e-development company -
> > > <http://www.rational.com/> www.rational.com
> > >    <mailto:jdensmor@...> jdensmor@...,  +1
> > > (719) 277-7193,
> > > fax +1 (603) 250-6848
> > >   Rational User Conference is 22-26 July 2001, in Denver, Colorado
> > >   RUC:  <http://www.rational.com/ruc> www.rational.com/ruc
> > >       Edge:
> > > <http://www.therationaledge.com/> www.therationaledge.com
> > >   Pikes Peak Chapter, ACM:       http://www.acm.org/chapters/ppacm
> > > <http://www.acm.org/chapters/ppacm>
> > >   Front Range Object Study Group:
> > > frostgroup-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > <mailto:frostgroup-subscribe@yahoogroups.com>
> > >   Quality is Free...or even if not quite so, a lot more
> satisfying.
> > >
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > cosAgile-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > cosAgile-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> cosAgile-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

I read the article.  The author's view is something interesting:
"Both jazz and XP, he argues, favor superstars whose excellence is often
hard to emulate. Both favor small groups, especially as things get more
complex. Both limit performance to individual solos, again to control
complexity. And both are hard to learn."

The following is very interesting:
From the above URL,
"http://www.martinfowler.com/articles/newMethodology.html#N790"  Is RUP an
agile method?
"Another tack at agile RUP is Robert Martin's dX process
<http://www.objectmentor.com/publications/RUPvsXP.pdf>. The dx process is a
fully compliant instance of RUP, that just happens to be identical to XP
(turn dX upside down to see the joke). dX is designed for folks that have to
use RUP, but want to use XP. As such it is both XP and RUP and thus a good
example of the agile use of RUP. "

Michael Finney
Sun Certified Programmer for the Java 2 Platform
Sun Certified Developer for the Java 2 Platform


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Langr [SMTP:JLangr@...]
> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 11:47 AM
> To: 'cosAgile@yahoogroups.com'
> Subject: RE: [cosAgile] some structure...
>
> Thanks for the info, Alex.  I'll see if I can make it up for the Booch
> talk.
> He's given some talks recently regarding XP
> (http://www.rational.com/news/inthenews/gbooch_041301.jsp), as noted on
> the
> XP list.  (I noted that some of his talk appeared to be misleading.)
>
> -Jeff
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Alex Viggio [mailto:aviggio@...]
> > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 10:49 AM
> > To: cosAgile@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [cosAgile] some structure...
> >
> >
> > There is an OO-specific group that meets in South Denver, and possibly
> > Castle Rock. FROST (Front Range Object Study Group) is run by
> > Jim Densmore.
> > Speaking of RUP, he has Grady Booch at their next meeting (see below),
> > although he wants to keep it small so RSVP ASAP to see if he
> > still has room.
> > Maybe your two groups can interact when the topics touch on OO.
> >
> > - Alex
> >
> > ***
> >
> > A FROST meeting?  Yes!  I want to start FROST up again.
> > While we're at it,
> > we might as well start with a Bang: our speaker for the next
> > FROST meeting
> > is Grady Booch, who will talk about the evolving relationship
> > between O-O
> > and a solid, full life-cycle development process.
> >
> > FROST MEETING
> >
> > * Speaker: Grady Booch
> > * When:    Tuesday, 22 May 2001
> > * Time:    7:00pm, 1.5-2 hours
> > * Where:    Denver Marriott Tech Center
> >     4900 South Syracuse Street, DTC
> >     phone 303-779-1100
> >     in the Evergreen A room
> >
> > Please come!  Also, there is a little time before Grady's talk and he
> > indicated that he's somewhat flexible about the topic, if you
> > would like to
> > see him speak about anything in particular surrounding the
> > topic, please
> > email me and I'll collect the responses.
> >
> > Also, please be prepared to engage in a short dialog at the
> > meeting (or
> > email too, that's fine) about:
> >
> > * where?  where should FROST meet?  Back in Castle Rock?
> > * when?  is the last Tuesday of the month in the evenings still good?
> > * monthly?  or how often?
> > * topics?  what are your current topics of interest?  what speakers
> > would like me to try and find?
> > * what can YOU talk about?  FROST traditionally divides its meetings
> > roughly equally between outside speakers and YOU, its
> > members.  i know some
> > of you have things of interest we'd like to hear more about.
> >
> > Thanks!  --Jim
> >
> >
> >   --Jim Densmore
> >   Rational Software - the e-development company -
> > <http://www.rational.com/> www.rational.com
> >    <mailto:jdensmor@...> jdensmor@...,  +1
> > (719) 277-7193,
> > fax +1 (603) 250-6848
> >   Rational User Conference is 22-26 July 2001, in Denver, Colorado
> >   RUC:  <http://www.rational.com/ruc> www.rational.com/ruc
> >       Edge:
> > <http://www.therationaledge.com/> www.therationaledge.com
> >   Pikes Peak Chapter, ACM:       http://www.acm.org/chapters/ppacm
> > <http://www.acm.org/chapters/ppacm>
> >   Front Range Object Study Group:
> > frostgroup-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:frostgroup-subscribe@yahoogroups.com>
> >   Quality is Free...or even if not quite so, a lot more satisfying.
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > cosAgile-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> cosAgile-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

Thanks for the info, Alex.  I'll see if I can make it up for the Booch talk.
He's given some talks recently regarding XP
(http://www.rational.com/news/inthenews/gbooch_041301.jsp), as noted on the
XP list.  (I noted that some of his talk appeared to be misleading.)

-Jeff

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alex Viggio [mailto:aviggio@...]
> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 10:49 AM
> To: cosAgile@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [cosAgile] some structure...
>
>
> There is an OO-specific group that meets in South Denver, and possibly
> Castle Rock. FROST (Front Range Object Study Group) is run by
> Jim Densmore.
> Speaking of RUP, he has Grady Booch at their next meeting (see below),
> although he wants to keep it small so RSVP ASAP to see if he
> still has room.
> Maybe your two groups can interact when the topics touch on OO.
>
> - Alex
>
> ***
>
> A FROST meeting?  Yes!  I want to start FROST up again.
> While we're at it,
> we might as well start with a Bang: our speaker for the next
> FROST meeting
> is Grady Booch, who will talk about the evolving relationship
> between O-O
> and a solid, full life-cycle development process.
>
> FROST MEETING
>
> * Speaker: Grady Booch
> * When:    Tuesday, 22 May 2001
> * Time:    7:00pm, 1.5-2 hours
> * Where:    Denver Marriott Tech Center
>     4900 South Syracuse Street, DTC
>     phone 303-779-1100
>     in the Evergreen A room
>
> Please come!  Also, there is a little time before Grady's talk and he
> indicated that he's somewhat flexible about the topic, if you
> would like to
> see him speak about anything in particular surrounding the
> topic, please
> email me and I'll collect the responses.
>
> Also, please be prepared to engage in a short dialog at the
> meeting (or
> email too, that's fine) about:
>
> * where?  where should FROST meet?  Back in Castle Rock?
> * when?  is the last Tuesday of the month in the evenings still good?
> * monthly?  or how often?
> * topics?  what are your current topics of interest?  what speakers
> would like me to try and find?
> * what can YOU talk about?  FROST traditionally divides its meetings
> roughly equally between outside speakers and YOU, its
> members.  i know some
> of you have things of interest we'd like to hear more about.
>
> Thanks!  --Jim
>
>
>   --Jim Densmore
>   Rational Software - the e-development company -
> <http://www.rational.com/> www.rational.com
>    <mailto:jdensmor@...> jdensmor@...,  +1
> (719) 277-7193,
> fax +1 (603) 250-6848
>   Rational User Conference is 22-26 July 2001, in Denver, Colorado
>   RUC:  <http://www.rational.com/ruc> www.rational.com/ruc
>       Edge:
> <http://www.therationaledge.com/> www.therationaledge.com
>   Pikes Peak Chapter, ACM:       http://www.acm.org/chapters/ppacm
> <http://www.acm.org/chapters/ppacm>
>   Front Range Object Study Group:
> frostgroup-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:frostgroup-subscribe@yahoogroups.com>
>   Quality is Free...or even if not quite so, a lot more satisfying.
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> cosAgile-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

There is an OO-specific group that meets in South Denver, and possibly
Castle Rock. FROST (Front Range Object Study Group) is run by Jim Densmore.
Speaking of RUP, he has Grady Booch at their next meeting (see below),
although he wants to keep it small so RSVP ASAP to see if he still has room.
Maybe your two groups can interact when the topics touch on OO.

- Alex

***

A FROST meeting?  Yes!  I want to start FROST up again.  While we're at it,
we might as well start with a Bang: our speaker for the next FROST meeting
is Grady Booch, who will talk about the evolving relationship between O-O
and a solid, full life-cycle development process.

FROST MEETING

* Speaker: Grady Booch
* When:    Tuesday, 22 May 2001
* Time:    7:00pm, 1.5-2 hours
* Where:    Denver Marriott Tech Center
     4900 South Syracuse Street, DTC
     phone 303-779-1100
     in the Evergreen A room

Please come!  Also, there is a little time before Grady's talk and he
indicated that he's somewhat flexible about the topic, if you would like to
see him speak about anything in particular surrounding the topic, please
email me and I'll collect the responses.

Also, please be prepared to engage in a short dialog at the meeting (or
email too, that's fine) about:

* where?  where should FROST meet?  Back in Castle Rock?
* when?  is the last Tuesday of the month in the evenings still good?
* monthly?  or how often?
* topics?  what are your current topics of interest?  what speakers
would like me to try and find?
* what can YOU talk about?  FROST traditionally divides its meetings
roughly equally between outside speakers and YOU, its members.  i know some
of you have things of interest we'd like to hear more about.

Thanks!  --Jim


   --Jim Densmore
   Rational Software - the e-development company -
<http://www.rational.com/> www.rational.com
    <mailto:jdensmor@...> jdensmor@...,  +1 (719) 277-7193,
fax +1 (603) 250-6848
   Rational User Conference is 22-26 July 2001, in Denver, Colorado
   RUC:  <http://www.rational.com/ruc> www.rational.com/ruc          Edge:
<http://www.therationaledge.com/> www.therationaledge.com
   Pikes Peak Chapter, ACM:       http://www.acm.org/chapters/ppacm
<http://www.acm.org/chapters/ppacm>
   Front Range Object Study Group:  frostgroup-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:frostgroup-subscribe@yahoogroups.com>
   Quality is Free...or even if not quite so, a lot more satisfying.

I'd like to constrain the group to focus on agile methodologies for now, but
that doesn't preclude the discussion of OO topics.  XP hinges on a good
understanding of OO for it to work properly.  There are raging discussions
of design patterns on the yahoo XP group, for example.

Send out specifics of what OO stuff you are interested in.  Personally, here
are some of the topics I'd like to see addressed:

	 * RUP
	 * refactoring
	 * design patterns and "doing the simplest thing that could possibly
work"
	 * SCRUM, Crystal, ASD, etc.
	 * agile vs. heavyweight processes
	 * organization adoption of agile processes
	 * test-first design
	 * OO design principles

I am more than happy to come out and talk anyone at worldcom.  Let's discuss
this offline.

-Jeff


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andrew Washburn [mailto:Andrew.Washburn@...]
> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 10:20 AM
> To: cosAgile@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [cosAgile] some structure...
>
>
> Jeff,
>
> I was thinking about it and most if not all the people in the
> room are doing OO
> so what if we broaden the group to a general OO group with a
> bent towards best
> practices eg patterns, methodologies.  Seems to me XP may be
> slightly too narrow
> going forward.
>
> Also, what would it cost to bring you in to talk to a couple
> managers and my sr
> manager as well as some of their workforce.  Nothing too
> formal just to let them
> know what XP is (most detail around the practices that make
> up XP).  Between an
> hour to 2 hours.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Andrew
>
> Jeff Langr wrote:
>
> > Welcome Michael Finney, who will be co-founder of cosAgile.  Michael
> > founded the Pikes Peak Java Developers Group, and was getting ready
> > to start up an XP group as well.
> >
> > We'll build a bit of structure into the group.  For now, we'll need
> > president, information manager, and event manager roles to be
> > filled.  Let me know if you're interested in any of the roles.
> >
> > -Jeff
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > cosAgile-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
cosAgile-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Jeff,

I was thinking about it and most if not all the people in the room are doing OO
so what if we broaden the group to a general OO group with a bent towards best
practices eg patterns, methodologies.  Seems to me XP may be slightly too narrow
going forward.

Also, what would it cost to bring you in to talk to a couple managers and my sr
manager as well as some of their workforce.  Nothing too formal just to let them
know what XP is (most detail around the practices that make up XP).  Between an
hour to 2 hours.

Thanks,

Andrew

Jeff Langr wrote:

> Welcome Michael Finney, who will be co-founder of cosAgile.  Michael
> founded the Pikes Peak Java Developers Group, and was getting ready
> to start up an XP group as well.
>
> We'll build a bit of structure into the group.  For now, we'll need
> president, information manager, and event manager roles to be
> filled.  Let me know if you're interested in any of the roles.
>
> -Jeff
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> cosAgile-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Welcome Michael Finney, who will be co-founder of cosAgile.  Michael
founded the Pikes Peak Java Developers Group, and was getting ready
to start up an XP group as well.

We'll build a bit of structure into the group.  For now, we'll need
president, information manager, and event manager roles to be
filled.  Let me know if you're interested in any of the roles.

-Jeff

Thanks to everyone who attended last night.

My next available Wednesday is June 20.  Let's shoot for a meeting
then.

Here are links for more information:

http://www.agilealliance.com
http://www.xprogramming.com
http://www.extremeprogramming.org
http://c2.com/cgi/wiki
http://c2.com/cgi/wiki/wiki?ExtremeProgramming
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/extremeprogramming
http://www.objectmentor.com
http://www.xp123.com
http://www.xpdeveloper.com
http://www.junit.org

Books:
Martin Fowler.  Refactoring: Improving the Design of Existing Code
   http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201485672
Kent Beck.  Extreme Programming Explained
   http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201616416
Kent Beck.  Planning Extreme Programming
   http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201710919
Ron Jeffries et al.  Extreme Programming Installed
   http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201708426
Rob Martin, Jim Newkirk.  Extreme Programming In Practice
   http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201709376
Giancarlo Succi, Michele Marchesi.  Extreme Programming Examined
   (not yet published)
   http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201710404
William Wake.  Extreme Programming Explored
   (not yet published)
   http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201733978

Let me know if you have questions or want to suggest other topics,
and also if you'd like to help.  Whoever volunteered the LCD
projector and/or room, let me know.

Thanks,
Jeff L.