If you read Dan Margulis' book "Professional Photoshop", he explains a lot
about reading CMYK/RGB values.  Not all foliage, for example, is the same
green, but it varies more in luminance than in actual color variation.  If
you compare known values to a picture that is "off", you can often see the
deficient color by examining the plate values.

I use a known flash temperature when shooting indoors.  My camera "knows"
the color of that light and, coupled with it's AWB, manages to come
extremely close to "right on".  Anything else is easily tweaked in Photoshop
if need be.

Wedding shots should be right, especially if the dress isn't pure white.
But then, only the bride and photographer would know that.  Landscapes are
quite different because so many of them are "interpreted" rather than
"reproduced".

Mike Davis
mldavis2 AT sbcglobal DOT net
http://www.pbase.com/mldavis2/

--- In curvemeister@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Davis" <mldavis2@...> wrote:
>
> Actually, it's a good idea.  I didn't think the post required comment.
>
> For many of us who are hobbyists and not "pros", some of the more
esoteric
> and expensive efforts at color control are just not worth the effort and
> cost.  I don't have the spare cash to spend $300 on a monitor
calibration
> device when I don't buy $2,500 monitors.  My personal and very effective
> solution is to find "known" colors within my images and then pin or
adjust
> them to what they "should" be, based on RGB or CMYK values.  This is
the way
> Dan Margulis corrects colors and is by far the most logical way of
getting
> it right.  The Adobe gamma tool is close enough that my on-screen
display is
> nearly identical to my printer output, and I know a car tire (for
example)
> is neutral.  But I don't often shoot cars.  So if I can embed a
color chip
> somewhere in a test shot and pin to that color, I am spot-on 99% of the
> time.
>
> Shooting in a church is a monster if there are stained glass
windows.  You
> will have multiple light color sources and I would think a chip pin
would be
> misleading at best.  Pin the brides white gown and play the rest by
ear ...
> er ... eye.
>
> Mike Davis
> mldavis2 AT sbcglobal DOT net
> http://www.pbase.com/mldavis2/
>

You make some good points. However...

How often do you find colors in your pictures that are standard? When
I first started using CM, that was a big feature and a nice step
forward. However, there are plenty of times that there just isn't a
standard neutral or colors that I have a pin for. It is nice to have
standard colors to put into the picture.

With these 10 pins, you are probably going to find a hue that is close
to the key object in your picture. You certainly don't have to pin all
10 pins to get what you want. Often all those colors won't be in your
picture. So, pin just what is in your picture and/or what is important.

Yes, we can color correct our pictures by eye. Then again, we always
could. We bought CM because we were looking for a better and faster
way of doing that. The pin concept was a nice step toward that. I'm
just trying to improve it by getting myself something more accurate to
pin too. Thereby making it even better and faster.

For example, I use the skin pins a lot. However, people are rounded.
This creates shadows and different lighting - particularly in
different lighting. People also have different color skin in different
places. So, I am often carefully moving my pin around on a face trying
to get the best look. This is a pain and can be frustrating. So far, I
have found that it is a LOT simplier and faster to just pin that flat,
even "Western Ridge" paint chip. The person's skin seems to line right
up with it.

Another example are the Nature pins. They never seem to be quite
right. Many of them have never worked for me. The problem is that
nature isn't very standard. "Green" and "blue" are all over nature,
but there are every variation of them. The sky where I am changes
constantly throughout the day and it is probably different than your sky.

Yes, you can get close with these pins, but sometimes close isn't
close enough. Wedding dresses is one of those times. A brides spends
years and huge amounts of dollars getting that just EXACTLY the way
she wants it. If it isn't pure white, it is because she meant it to be
that exact shade and hue of off white. Since the #1 rule in wedding
photography is "keep the bride happy", I do everything I can to do
just that. Believe me, she will notice the color of her dress in the
resulting photographs. That will also affect the references that she
gives - hence, business.

-----------------------

Actually shooting in a church isn't that difficult. I am a salesman
for custom, engineered interior lighting (exterior too). I'm concerned
with the artificial lights. So, I put the color chips in that
lighting. If I get that lighting just right, the daylight and other
lighting will fall into their own hue ranges. The engineers will be
able to see what color of lights are hitting where in the church.

I'm using this system to start from a standard color. I am trying to
show the fine and subtle other colors of lighting. This is using Dan's
canyon idea to separate close hues.

Of course, you may not have these levels of color standards. Then
again, you might and not see it either. You might want to try using
these paint chips and pins and see what it does. Heck, I've learned a
lot during this experimenting and testing.

Clyde

--- In curvemeister@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Russell" <curvemeister@...>
wrote:
>
> From: "lughclyde" <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
>
> > Well! That went over like a lead balloon. Almost a week and no
> > response at all. Either I presented a perfect scheme or no one cares
> > about exact colors. I seriously doubt either. I guess that everyone
> > could be out at Sears getting, building, and testing their own color
> > charts.
>
> Maybe this idea needs a little wider exposure.  I'd like to write a
short
> article using paint chips as color standards - starting off with a
list of
> the neutral paint chips you discovered 0 and see if that generates some
> interest - what do you think?
>
> > Any feedback folks? Does anyone care? Is anyone trying this? Am I
> > completely nuts? I'm just curious. Hey, we can't improve anything if
> > it isn't tested.
>
> I wouldn't judge from the responses here in the group.  People are
welcome
> to absorb ideas here without necessarily replying or adding their
own input.
> Given that there is enough of  a market in gray cards to support
several
> product lines, the idea of an inexpensive color standard is bound to
have
> merit.
>
> Color charst, as opposed to gray cards, are associated with
calibration,
> rather than correction or curving of individual images.  I've been
thinking
> about adding profile support for Curvemeister 3, and when that happens
> people may become even more interested in the idea of an inexpensive
color
> chart.
>
> > OK. I was out on the road all week. I have shot a bunch of pictures
> > inside churches. These have a whole bunch of light sources with many
> > different colors. I should be editing them this week. I'm interested
> > in learning how these Sears paint chips and CM pins will help nail the
> > real colors in these pictures.
>
> People love examples - I'll work on a few myself.
>
> Mike
>

Go for it Mike. If you need any help in writing those, let me know. I
do like the idea of starting with just the neutral paint chips. The
vast majority of the time, that is all you need.

I have found that correcting with a full range of color chips does
(sometimes) give you something extra. It goes back to Dan's book of
using LAB to separate close colors - like canyons. Getting all those
colors right to start with seems to really help the close separations
later.

Keep in mind that this seems to be in a minority of occasions. I
haven't tested it enough to get a great handle on that yet. Another
reason the color paint chip article should follow.

BTW, I am trying to use these colors for calibration. However, it
seems to only make sense for standard, consistant light sources. That
pretty much comes down to flash and other studio lights. I have a
curve for one flash system already. More to come.

Daylight, shade, cloudy, florescent, and others are just too variable
to use the colors for a standard curve/profile.

I do like your idea of Profiles. I'm interested to see how that will
improve over regular curves. One of the annoying things about my flash
curve it that I have to hunt around for it when I "Load".

Thanks,
Clyde

Actually, it's a good idea.  I didn't think the post required comment.

For many of us who are hobbyists and not "pros", some of the more esoteric
and expensive efforts at color control are just not worth the effort and
cost.  I don't have the spare cash to spend $300 on a monitor calibration
device when I don't buy $2,500 monitors.  My personal and very effective
solution is to find "known" colors within my images and then pin or adjust
them to what they "should" be, based on RGB or CMYK values.  This is the way
Dan Margulis corrects colors and is by far the most logical way of getting
it right.  The Adobe gamma tool is close enough that my on-screen display is
nearly identical to my printer output, and I know a car tire (for example)
is neutral.  But I don't often shoot cars.  So if I can embed a color chip
somewhere in a test shot and pin to that color, I am spot-on 99% of the
time.

Shooting in a church is a monster if there are stained glass windows.  You
will have multiple light color sources and I would think a chip pin would be
misleading at best.  Pin the brides white gown and play the rest by ear ...
er ... eye.

Mike Davis
mldavis2 AT sbcglobal DOT net
http://www.pbase.com/mldavis2/

From: "lughclyde" <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>

> Well! That went over like a lead balloon. Almost a week and no
> response at all. Either I presented a perfect scheme or no one cares
> about exact colors. I seriously doubt either. I guess that everyone
> could be out at Sears getting, building, and testing their own color
> charts.

Maybe this idea needs a little wider exposure.  I'd like to write a short
article using paint chips as color standards - starting off with a list of
the neutral paint chips you discovered 0 and see if that generates some
interest - what do you think?

> Any feedback folks? Does anyone care? Is anyone trying this? Am I
> completely nuts? I'm just curious. Hey, we can't improve anything if
> it isn't tested.

I wouldn't judge from the responses here in the group.  People are welcome
to absorb ideas here without necessarily replying or adding their own input.
Given that there is enough of  a market in gray cards to support several
product lines, the idea of an inexpensive color standard is bound to have
merit.

Color charst, as opposed to gray cards, are associated with calibration,
rather than correction or curving of individual images.  I've been thinking
about adding profile support for Curvemeister 3, and when that happens
people may become even more interested in the idea of an inexpensive color
chart.

> OK. I was out on the road all week. I have shot a bunch of pictures
> inside churches. These have a whole bunch of light sources with many
> different colors. I should be editing them this week. I'm interested
> in learning how these Sears paint chips and CM pins will help nail the
> real colors in these pictures.

People love examples - I'll work on a few myself.

Mike

--- In curvemeister@yahoogroups.com, lughclyde <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks Mike. Thanks for your feedback, testing, and scanning too.
>
> I haven't completed my testing to 100% satisfaction, but I'm pretty
> happy with the other colors too. I suppose you are right that it's
> time to share. We could use some other beta testers too.
>
> Back awhile in this group, there was a lot of discussion about
> standardized pin colors, not just neutral. I kind of took that on as a
> personal challenge. I also was reading Dan's book "Photoshop LAB
> Colors". With that book came a CD that has most of the pictures that
> were worked on in the book.
>
> One particular file caught my eye: LAB_schematic.psd This is a color
> wheel of all 8 colors you can get in LAB with combinations of +50, 0,
> and -50 in channels "a" & "b". Based on what Dan said in his book, you
> can define just about any hue in this color wheel. Those seemed like
> they would be good pins to me. So, I started looking for them.
>
> I have a Sears Hardware store near me and I think Sears is pretty much
> everywhere for everyone. (Well, as much as any source.) I first tried
> a set of colors from the Hot Wheels & Barbie colors. After a ton of
> testing with Mike R. and others, we couldn't quite get it right. In
> particular skin tones kept moving toward red.
>
> In looking closer at the pins, they weren't all that close to the
> ideal. So, I started looking for other paint chips. Sears' Martha
> Stewart collection doesn't have a very broad gamut. The Dutch Boy
> paint chips have a great selection, but not in all hues. The regular
> Sears paint chips proved to have all the hues. I found some that are
> darn close to the ideals. Mike R was kind enough to make pins out of
them.
>
> Here is the pin file:
>
> ;Curvemeister pin file Sears Paint Chips.txt
> ;This file is designed for use with Curvemeister
> ;See http://www.curvemeister.com/downloads/pins/
> ;    for more information on pin files available from Curvemeister
> ;
> Grape Freeze aa013 Lab(54.58,23.04,-29.16) Pin hue and saturation
> Pink Lipstick aa061 Lab(62.87,51.03,2.35) Pin hue and saturation
> Exotic Orange aa092 Lab(66.09,42.06,34.00) Pin hue and saturation
> Chrome Yellow aa162 Lab(86.48,-0.65,81.56) Pin hue and saturation
> Green Thumb aa214 Lab(61.96,-39.05,36.74) Pin hue and saturation
> Villager Green aa253 Lab(48.18,-48.18,-5.07) Pin hue and saturation
> Aquatic aa282 Lab(49.08,-29.77,-26.57) Pin hue and saturation
> Visionary Blue aa314 Lab(33.02,-2.91,-48.57) Pin hue and saturation
> Western Ridge ee083 Lab(58.30,20.24,20.82) Pin hue and saturation
> Pewter kk331 Lab(68.28,-0.20,0.06)
>
> (Tabs in those big spaces between columns.)
>
> I have the 8 colors of the LAB wheel, plus a kind of skin color and
> neutral gray. I put the skin color in there because we had so much
> trouble with skin color in the earlier tests. Besides we may want to
> only pin a skin color at times. It doesn't quite match any of the 9
> skin pins, but I didn't find any that did. Some of those have a bit
> more "a" and some a bit more "b". I figured a skin pin that was pretty
> even would be a nice happy medium.
>
> The Pewter being almost dead neutral was a happy surprise. Hey, I'll
> take it. In early testing I have pinned all the other 9 colors then
> pinned Pewter with Highlight and Shadow in a separate step. I may make
> it Hue & Saturation too. Pewter works just fine with Neutral too.
>
> I could never get any of these to work right when Brightness was
> included in the pin. "L" seems to go all crazy. Mike R confirmed that
> was his experience too. I figure I can usually set "L" to something
> that I like without any trouble AND the use of Hightlight and Shadow.
> So, I'm consentrating on a/b.
>
> In early testing, these 10 pins work very well. I get very accurate
> hues for everything. Actually they are more accurate that I like
> sometimes. Things I've thought as neutrals, turn out to be not quite
> neutral. Things that I thought were one color turn out to be not quite
> right. However, when I actually compare the object to the result, they
> are right on. This tells me more about human perception of color than
> it does the testing of these pins. (Spyder2 for monitor calibration on
> a pro series ViewSonic CRT.)
>
> One of the advantages of using really accurate colors is that is makes
> a great starting point for using the sliders. When you get accurate
> colors to start, the separation INSIDE a narrow range of hues is
> greater. Blond hair is a good example. Pin to the 9 then push the
> sliders up. Suddenly you get more variations of blond in the hair. It
> is Dan's canyon idea used well.
>
> I cut out each of these paint chips and stuck them on the inside of a
> AOL CD case. (They should be used for something practical.) It is one
> of those box like ones that appears to be particle board. The 8 from
> the LAB wheel are inside on the bottom. The Western Ridge and Pewter
> fit inside the cover near the hinge. The are surrounded by the white
> of the cover, that can come in handy too. (I used double stick tape.)
>
> This case keeps the light off the paint chips when not in use; some
> may fade otherwise. It is also small enough to carry in my camera bag
> AND small enough to hand hold. I can hold it in front of my camera and
> in the light/picture. I plan to paint the outside of this case with
> Golden Neutral Gray N5 acrylic. That is mostly so I'm not seen
> carrying an AOL box around and it will also give me another neutral
gray.
>
> While these chips are pretty flat, you can get some glare off them. I
> have found that the angle you hold the case at in some light is pretty
> important. With flash it really shows. It won't affect the hue, but it
> does affect the saturation. That is part of the pin too. You will
> probably want to test this.
>
> I am a part time profession wedding photographer. This one of the
> reasons that I've put so much trouble into getting EXACT colors. As
> any wedding photographer knows, not all white wedding dresses are
> "white". I needed a way to get results of slightly off white dresses
> that were actually slightly off white. I think I have it now. With CM
> and these pins, it is easy too.
>
> One of the things I'm working on is a standard curve for any flash
> setup. With my carry flash on the bracket or my studio flashes I
> should need only two curves. That way I can pop away at a wedding and
> not even have to bring out the chips. This seems to work very well, IF
> there is no other light source involved. Since these standard light
> sources never change the curve shouldn't change. Well, as long as you
> leave Brightness out of it. Daylight, cloudy, florescent, and
> incandescent don't seem to be consistant enough to count on for this.
> They could if you used the same bulb setup all the time.
>
> So, build your own free and easy "Macgrath" color standard chart.
> Please test this and use it. Then report back to this august group
> what you find. We may need to fine tune this, but so far I'm happy. I
> do plan on much more testing myself. I'll report too.
>
> Mike R, could you put the whole 10 pin file on your Web site?
>
> Thanks,
> Clyde
>
>
>
> --- In curvemeister@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Russell" <mike@> wrote:
> >
> > Clyde has done it!  After a lengthy search, he has discovered a
> Sears paint chip that is very close to a dead neutral.  If any of you
> have priced out neutral gray cards, you know they cost a finite amount
> of money.  For example, there is no way I would use my 90 dollar
> ColorChecker in rainy weather, but a free paint chip is something that
> I can carry around in my camera bag, and use, abuse, and lose with no
> regrets.
> >
> > The paint chip is Sears Easy Living WeatherBeater KK33 (dated 1/05
> bottom right corner),  You may get this card free at most Sears paint
> stores.  If you cannot access a Sears Store, try calling the US number
> 1-800-9-PAINTS M-F during working hours and see if they will mail you
> the KK33 / 2491 card - let the rest of us know how it goes.
> >
> > You may paste the following values into your pin file and use them
> as neutral pins.  Be sure to replace the <tab> with an actual tab
> character when doing so.
> >
> > kk331 <tab> Lab(68.28,-0.20, 0.06)
> > kk332 <tab> Lab(42.72, 0.72,-0.93)
> > kk333 <tab> Lab(39.46,-0.78,-1.13)
> >
> > Although the values are given to two decimals, the actual a and b
> values are only accurate to plus or minus 1.0 or so.  These pins will
> be available shortly on the Curvemeister page:
> > http://www.curvemeister.com/downloads/pins/
> >
> > For those of you in other countries, or who would like other paint
> chips scanned, I will do a spectrophotometer scan of any paint chips
> that are mailed to me, and email you back a pin file containing the
> Photoshop Lab values.
> >
> > Clyde is working on other colors as well, and I hope that he will
> share some of his results here.
> >
> > Mike Russell
> > 1968 Hopkins Street
> > Berkeley, CA 94707
> >
>

Well! That went over like a lead balloon. Almost a week and no
response at all. Either I presented a perfect scheme or no one cares
about exact colors. I seriously doubt either. I guess that everyone
could be out at Sears getting, building, and testing their own color
charts.

Any feedback folks? Does anyone care? Is anyone trying this? Am I
completely nuts? I'm just curious. Hey, we can't improve anything if
it isn't tested.

OK. I was out on the road all week. I have shot a bunch of pictures
inside churches. These have a whole bunch of light sources with many
different colors. I should be editing them this week. I'm interested
in learning how these Sears paint chips and CM pins will help nail the
real colors in these pictures.

I'll let you know.

Clyde

Thanks Mike. Thanks for your feedback, testing, and scanning too.

I haven't completed my testing to 100% satisfaction, but I'm pretty
happy with the other colors too. I suppose you are right that it's
time to share. We could use some other beta testers too.

Back awhile in this group, there was a lot of discussion about
standardized pin colors, not just neutral. I kind of took that on as a
personal challenge. I also was reading Dan's book "Photoshop LAB
Colors". With that book came a CD that has most of the pictures that
were worked on in the book.

One particular file caught my eye: LAB_schematic.psd This is a color
wheel of all 8 colors you can get in LAB with combinations of +50, 0,
and -50 in channels "a" & "b". Based on what Dan said in his book, you
can define just about any hue in this color wheel. Those seemed like
they would be good pins to me. So, I started looking for them.

I have a Sears Hardware store near me and I think Sears is pretty much
everywhere for everyone. (Well, as much as any source.) I first tried
a set of colors from the Hot Wheels & Barbie colors. After a ton of
testing with Mike R. and others, we couldn't quite get it right. In
particular skin tones kept moving toward red.

In looking closer at the pins, they weren't all that close to the
ideal. So, I started looking for other paint chips. Sears' Martha
Stewart collection doesn't have a very broad gamut. The Dutch Boy
paint chips have a great selection, but not in all hues. The regular
Sears paint chips proved to have all the hues. I found some that are
darn close to the ideals. Mike R was kind enough to make pins out of them.

Here is the pin file:

;Curvemeister pin file Sears Paint Chips.txt
;This file is designed for use with Curvemeister
;See http://www.curvemeister.com/downloads/pins/
;    for more information on pin files available from Curvemeister
;
Grape Freeze aa013 Lab(54.58,23.04,-29.16) Pin hue and saturation
Pink Lipstick aa061 Lab(62.87,51.03,2.35) Pin hue and saturation
Exotic Orange aa092 Lab(66.09,42.06,34.00) Pin hue and saturation
Chrome Yellow aa162 Lab(86.48,-0.65,81.56) Pin hue and saturation
Green Thumb aa214 Lab(61.96,-39.05,36.74) Pin hue and saturation
Villager Green aa253 Lab(48.18,-48.18,-5.07) Pin hue and saturation
Aquatic aa282 Lab(49.08,-29.77,-26.57) Pin hue and saturation
Visionary Blue aa314 Lab(33.02,-2.91,-48.57) Pin hue and saturation
Western Ridge ee083 Lab(58.30,20.24,20.82) Pin hue and saturation
Pewter kk331 Lab(68.28,-0.20,0.06)

(Tabs in those big spaces between columns.)

I have the 8 colors of the LAB wheel, plus a kind of skin color and
neutral gray. I put the skin color in there because we had so much
trouble with skin color in the earlier tests. Besides we may want to
only pin a skin color at times. It doesn't quite match any of the 9
skin pins, but I didn't find any that did. Some of those have a bit
more "a" and some a bit more "b". I figured a skin pin that was pretty
even would be a nice happy medium.

The Pewter being almost dead neutral was a happy surprise. Hey, I'll
take it. In early testing I have pinned all the other 9 colors then
pinned Pewter with Highlight and Shadow in a separate step. I may make
it Hue & Saturation too. Pewter works just fine with Neutral too.

I could never get any of these to work right when Brightness was
included in the pin. "L" seems to go all crazy. Mike R confirmed that
was his experience too. I figure I can usually set "L" to something
that I like without any trouble AND the use of Hightlight and Shadow.
So, I'm consentrating on a/b.

In early testing, these 10 pins work very well. I get very accurate
hues for everything. Actually they are more accurate that I like
sometimes. Things I've thought as neutrals, turn out to be not quite
neutral. Things that I thought were one color turn out to be not quite
right. However, when I actually compare the object to the result, they
are right on. This tells me more about human perception of color than
it does the testing of these pins. (Spyder2 for monitor calibration on
a pro series ViewSonic CRT.)

One of the advantages of using really accurate colors is that is makes
a great starting point for using the sliders. When you get accurate
colors to start, the separation INSIDE a narrow range of hues is
greater. Blond hair is a good example. Pin to the 9 then push the
sliders up. Suddenly you get more variations of blond in the hair. It
is Dan's canyon idea used well.

I cut out each of these paint chips and stuck them on the inside of a
AOL CD case. (They should be used for something practical.) It is one
of those box like ones that appears to be particle board. The 8 from
the LAB wheel are inside on the bottom. The Western Ridge and Pewter
fit inside the cover near the hinge. The are surrounded by the white
of the cover, that can come in handy too. (I used double stick tape.)

This case keeps the light off the paint chips when not in use; some
may fade otherwise. It is also small enough to carry in my camera bag
AND small enough to hand hold. I can hold it in front of my camera and
in the light/picture. I plan to paint the outside of this case with
Golden Neutral Gray N5 acrylic. That is mostly so I'm not seen
carrying an AOL box around and it will also give me another neutral gray.

While these chips are pretty flat, you can get some glare off them. I
have found that the angle you hold the case at in some light is pretty
important. With flash it really shows. It won't affect the hue, but it
does affect the saturation. That is part of the pin too. You will
probably want to test this.

I am a part time profession wedding photographer. This one of the
reasons that I've put so much trouble into getting EXACT colors. As
any wedding photographer knows, not all white wedding dresses are
"white". I needed a way to get results of slightly off white dresses
that were actually slightly off white. I think I have it now. With CM
and these pins, it is easy too.

One of the things I'm working on is a standard curve for any flash
setup. With my carry flash on the bracket or my studio flashes I
should need only two curves. That way I can pop away at a wedding and
not even have to bring out the chips. This seems to work very well, IF
there is no other light source involved. Since these standard light
sources never change the curve shouldn't change. Well, as long as you
leave Brightness out of it. Daylight, cloudy, florescent, and
incandescent don't seem to be consistant enough to count on for this.
They could if you used the same bulb setup all the time.

So, build your own free and easy "Macgrath" color standard chart.
Please test this and use it. Then report back to this august group
what you find. We may need to fine tune this, but so far I'm happy. I
do plan on much more testing myself. I'll report too.

Mike R, could you put the whole 10 pin file on your Web site?

Thanks,
Clyde



--- In curvemeister@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Russell" <mike@...> wrote:
>
> Clyde has done it!  After a lengthy search, he has discovered a
Sears paint chip that is very close to a dead neutral.  If any of you
have priced out neutral gray cards, you know they cost a finite amount
of money.  For example, there is no way I would use my 90 dollar
ColorChecker in rainy weather, but a free paint chip is something that
I can carry around in my camera bag, and use, abuse, and lose with no
regrets.
>
> The paint chip is Sears Easy Living WeatherBeater KK33 (dated 1/05
bottom right corner),  You may get this card free at most Sears paint
stores.  If you cannot access a Sears Store, try calling the US number
1-800-9-PAINTS M-F during working hours and see if they will mail you
the KK33 / 2491 card - let the rest of us know how it goes.
>
> You may paste the following values into your pin file and use them
as neutral pins.  Be sure to replace the <tab> with an actual tab
character when doing so.
>
> kk331 <tab> Lab(68.28,-0.20, 0.06)
> kk332 <tab> Lab(42.72, 0.72,-0.93)
> kk333 <tab> Lab(39.46,-0.78,-1.13)
>
> Although the values are given to two decimals, the actual a and b
values are only accurate to plus or minus 1.0 or so.  These pins will
be available shortly on the Curvemeister page:
> http://www.curvemeister.com/downloads/pins/
>
> For those of you in other countries, or who would like other paint
chips scanned, I will do a spectrophotometer scan of any paint chips
that are mailed to me, and email you back a pin file containing the
Photoshop Lab values.
>
> Clyde is working on other colors as well, and I hope that he will
share some of his results here.
>
> Mike Russell
> 1968 Hopkins Street
> Berkeley, CA 94707
>

Hi Mike,

>To dial down the saturation of a pinned sample, I generally un-pin the
icon in the bottom right corner of the sample palette, and adjust the
curves manually to get the hue clock looking the way I want it to.

You may prefer to change the target value of the pinned sample.  To do
this, double click on the info palette in the image window, and reduce the
S value in the color picker.

I hope this answers your question - if not, please give it another try!<


Well, I've not tried the procedure yet, but I can follow it in my mind's
eye so suspect all will be well.

Thanks,

Doug

> In verifying this procedure, I found that there is a bug that requires
> that
> you toggle the pin icon in the bottom right corner of the sample palette
> after doing this.  This will force the new pin value to take hold, and be
> reflected in the curves.

I've put up a beta, version 2.1.11 that fixes this problem.

There is also an improvement to the "pin and spin" feature.  Curves may now
be rotated through a complete 360 degrees, instead of only 180 degrees.

Curvemeister 2 owners may access this version via the "Check for Updates"
command.

Mike Russell
www.curvemeister.com

Doug asked:
...
> If I've pinned a skin tone so as to get
> it right, but then think it's a bit too saturated (and that was a comment
> you made IIRC on one of the session 4 images), how do I get the saturation
> down?   Or, is it a case that I have inadvertently bumped the saturation
> up
> before I did the pin job?

To dial down the saturation of a pinned sample, I generally un-pin the icon
in the bottom right corner of the sample palette, and adjust the curves
manually to get the hue clock looking the way I want it to.

You may prefer to change the target value of the pinned sample.  To do this,
double click on the info palette in the image window, and reduce the S value
in the color picker.

In verifying this procedure, I found that there is a bug that requires that
you toggle the pin icon in the bottom right corner of the sample palette
after doing this.  This will force the new pin value to take hold, and be
reflected in the curves.

If you find that a particular pin is consistently not to your liking, you
can also edit the pin value itself to have a lower saturation.

I hope this answers your question - if not, please give it another try!

Mike Russell
www.curvemeister.com

Hi Mike,

Thanks for your reply.  I want to press a point:  I had asked:

>But if I'm right, and I'm rotating around a skin tone, how do I reduce the
saturation of the skin tone?<

I had asked this because in an earlier post to me you had said that skin
tones need to be about 1230 on the hue clock, and the saturation arm needs
to be about half length (which I take to mean that the length is at about
the "curvemeister" text on the clock).

In your latest post you answered:

>The interesting thing about this is that you don't change the saturation
or hue of a pinned color.  So, for example, you could brighten the colors
in an image, but keep the skin tones less saturated.  I think I see this
effect in commercial advertisements, where the skin tones are kept
reasonable, but surrounding colors are jumping off the TV screen.<

Unfortunately, I remain puzzled.  If I've pinned a skin tone so as to get
it right, but then think it's a bit too saturated (and that was a comment
you made IIRC on one of the session 4 images), how do I get the saturation
down?   Or, is it a case that I have inadvertently bumped the saturation up
before I did the pin job?

Ciao,

Doug

From: "winnebago_doug" <d_jardine@...>

[re rotation feature in the beta version]
> This suggests to me that in LAB the workflow would be to deal with
> neutral and or skin tones first, ie, before seeking to adjust the A&B
> curves (with or without the aid of the slider.  Right?

Yes. Before it was best to change saturation, and then set the neutral or
pin.  Now either order works.  You can pin first, and then change the slope,
or set the saturation and pin afterward.

> Also, unless I'm having a brain cramp (and I'm given to those<smile>),
> adjusting the A&B curves is adjusting saturation.  By increasing the
> steepness of the curve one bumps the saturation, while flattening the
> curve reduces it.  Right?

Yes.  More precisely, the color variation is increased, and depending on the
color of the object, the a and b curves will have different effects.  For a
yellow object such as a flower, adjusting the b curve will make the yellow
more saturated.  Adjusting the a curve can add interesting variations - from
orange to green - within the yellow color itself.

> But if I'm right, and I'm rotating around a skin tone, how do I reduce
> the saturation of the skin tone?

The interesting thing about this is that you don't change the saturation or
hue of a pinned color.  So, for example, you could brighten the colors in an
image, but keep the skin tones less saturated.  I think I see this effect in
commercial advertisements, where the skin tones are kept reasonable, but
surrounding colors are jumping off the TV screen.

If you pin a neutral, then the saturation of the skin tones will increase as
you make the a and b curves steeper.

Curve rotation is not confined to Lab mode.  It also works well in RGB mode,
where you can pin a neutral, and then increase the contrast of the
individual colors.  The rotate feature also provides a quick way to do a
"straighten" curve move, where you just want to make the curve straight
while retaining the location of an interior point.
BTW curve moves such as "straighten" are described here:
http://www.curvemeister.com/support/curvemeister2/help/Articles/CurveMoves.htm

I'm interested in your new thoughts on how to use this.

Mike Russell
www.curvemeister.com

--- In curvemeister@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Russell" <curvemeister@...>
wrote:
>
> From: "hokuahi" <luminous@...>
>
> You may rotate an individual curve either around the center point,
or around a single control point.  This allows you to rotate the
individual curves around a neutral or a skin tone pin.
>
> It is now possible to preserve a neutral cleanly while rotating any
of the curves.  You can also change bump saturation and/or contrast
while keeping a skin tone intact.
>
> Mike
>

This suggests to me that in LAB the workflow would be to deal with
neutral and or skin tones first, ie, before seeking to adjust the A&B
curves (with or without the aid of the slider.  Right?

Also, unless I'm having a brain cramp (and I'm given to those<smile>),
adjusting the A&B curves is adjusting saturation.  By increasing the
steepness of the curve one bumps the saturation, while flattening the
curve reduces it.  Right?

But if I'm right, and I'm rotating around a skin tone, how do I reduce
the saturation of the skin tone?

TIA for your response.

Ciao,

Doug

From: "hokuahi" <luminous@...>

> The slider is a welcome addition.  Is there any chance that it can be
> adjusted separately for the different channels?

This was available before, but it performed a scale operation rather than a
rotation, as in the most recent version.  You may rotate an individual curve
either around the center point, or around a single control point.  This
allows you to rotate the individual curves around a neutral or a skin tone
pin.

Being able to rotate the curve turns out to be useful in unexpected ways.
It is now possible to preserve a neutral cleanly while rotating any of the
curves.  You can also change bump saturation and/or contrast while keeping a
skin tone intact.

Mike

>The slider is a welcome addition.  Is there any chance that it can be
adjusted separately for the different channels?<

Yes, this would be helpful as Margulis' Canyon book deals with the value of
being able to make one of the A -- B curves steeper than the other, yet
still passing through their respective "center points."

Ciao,

Doug

The slider is a welcome addition.  Is there any chance that it can be
adjusted separately for the different channels?

Thank you!

--- In curvemeister@yahoogroups.com, Carlo Hagemann
<carlo.hagemann@...> wrote:
>
> hokuahi wrote:
>
> > Where is this slider function located and how do I access it?
>
> Hi hokuahi,
>
> You can access the slider by keeping the shift button down while
> clicking the Lab radio button.
>
> The slider will appear beneath the CM-picture.
>
> Carlo
>

There does seem to be a lot of Black & Gold lately. Not so much before the game...this is Eagle territory and maybe people hesitated to commit.

 

Here is the tut...

 

http://av.adobe.com/russellbrown/AdvancedMasking.mov

 

 

Thanks,
Gene Palmiter
(visit my photo gallery at http://palmiter.dotphoto.com)
freebridge design group

----- Original Message -----

From: Mike Russell

To: curvemeister@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 7:42 PM

Subject: Re: [curvemeister] new version of Curvemeister

I am installing the newest version now and while that happens I wanted to share some thoughts. It is the nature of software to become bloatware...its the consumers fault as we keep wanting new features...so I am not blaming the programmers.

Hi Gene,

 

Good to hear from you.  I hope Eaton is sharing in yesterday's glory a little.

 

Yes, adding more features to software is one of the hallmarks of our age that is hard to get away from.  The alternative is to start a new product, and support featureas across multiple small plugins.  I generally try to keep my software so that it can be run on slower systems with a minimum amount of memory.  That said, Curvemeister is one of the larger plugins out there!

 

There is a process that I use and it is often asked about in newsgroups, and that is masking. The best tutorial I have found for that is the one by Russell Brown. Have a look at it and tell me how Curvemeister can help with it. I am thinking that it may not be helpful yet, but adding a few features might make it so. This might be a direction to go in the future...or you might see a way to make a new plug-in that helps with the process just Curvemeister is a way to implement the ideas in Professional Photoshop.

Mask Meister perhaps?  If you have a pointer to the Russell Brown tutorial, let me know.  Sounds interesting.

 

 

It seems that Curvemeister might be helpful in removing backgrounds if it could assist in making selections.

One area that Curvemeister can help is in selecting masks and copying them to the clipboard. 

 

And now that I brought it up...will you be mentioned in the new ProPhotoshop book? Will there be new ideas in the book that will cause new features to be added to CM?

 

I may get some small mention in the book,  but no guarantees.  As for the second question, Dan's books are a source of new ideas as I try to work out the examples, and find new features. The new saturation slider and curve rotation feature are partly a result of the Lab book.

 

Mike

 

I am installing the newest version now and while that happens I wanted to share some thoughts. It is the nature of software to become bloatware...its the consumers fault as we keep wanting new features...so I am not blaming the programmers.

There is a process that I use and it is often asked about in newsgroups, and that is masking. The best tutorial I have found for that is the one by Russell Brown. Have a look at it and tell me how Curvemeister can help with it. I am thinking that it may not be helpful yet, but adding a few features might make it so. This might be a direction to go in the future...or you might see a way to make a new plug-in that helps with the process just Curvemeister is a way to implement the ideas in Professional Photoshop.

It seems that Curvemeister might be helpful in removing backgrounds if it could assist in making selections.

And now that I brought it up...will you be mentioned in the new ProPhotoshop book? Will there be new ideas in the book that will cause new features to be added to CM?

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Mike Russell

To: curvemeister group

Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 1:38 PM

Subject: [curvemeister] new version of Curvemeister

I've made several improvements to the saturation slider, and altered the "curve scaling" operation to be more of a "curve rotating" function.

 

This is in the current demo:

http://www.curvemeister.com/downloads/cmdemo/index.html

 

Curvemeister owners may access the new version as a beta, using "Curvemeister.com>Check for Updates" command under the Start menu.

Mike Russell
www.curvemeister.com

hokuahi wrote:

> Where is this slider function located and how do I access it?

Hi hokuahi,

You can access the slider by keeping the shift button down while
clicking the Lab radio button.

The slider will appear beneath the CM-picture.

Carlo

Where is this slider function located and how do I access it?

> Hi Mike,
>
> yes, a great feature. I too would like it sticky, or even just three
> the whole time. It's quite unobtrusive, in fact I had trouble finding
> it though this could be because I run dual screen with the histogram
> page taking up the second screen.
>
> I would like to see some sort of numerical value on it though, so I
> can keep track of what I've done, or zero it manually.

Yes, one other person asked for this.  Look for a new version soon.

Mike

Hi Mike,

yes, a great feature. I too would like it sticky, or even just three
the whole time. It's quite unobtrusive, in fact I had trouble finding
it though this could be because I run dual screen with the histogram
page taking up the second screen.

I would like to see some sort of numerical value on it though, so I
can keep track of what I've done, or zero it manually.

cheers,

bb

From: "lughclyde" <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>

> That slider is a wonderful idea. For those of us who have read Dan's
> book "Photoshop LAB Color" this really saves time. It is significantly
> easier too.
>
> This allows me to use CM to correct the colors and then run it a 2nd
> time to adjust the saturation. I do like that it doesn't lock the
> curves. i.e. I can still fine tune one point or another after setting
> the slider.
>
> Only one suggestion though... Please make it sticky. I don't want to
> have to turn it on every time I use CM. I bet most people who use it
> will want it on all the time. If not, <shift> clicking on LAB will
> toggle it on and off.

Hi Clyde,

Good idea. I'll be releasing an improved version of the slider very soon.  I
think the slider should always be there.

Mike