>*fufed, te hypothetical, third person singular of the perfect of the
>vrb 'to be' in Oscan ... is formally and semantically close to Latin fuit
>cf. inscriptional fuveit),

The inscriptional form fuueit is more probably an attempt to show the long
vowel in fu:it.  This long vowel is attested also in Ennius (annals 377).

Peter

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel J. Milton" <dmilt1896@...> wrote:
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Francesco Brighenti" <frabrig@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Yes, I've seen that a variant form of the name Metius (~
> > Mettius/Mettus) Fufetius (~ Fuffetius) is Metius *Suffetius*
> > (attested in some Roman writers of the imperial period, f.i. in
> > Lucius Ampelius).
> >
> > Yet, it seems very unlikely to me that the original form was
> > Suffetius and that the latter name was related to Lat. suf(f)es, -
> > etis 'the chief magistrate of the Carthaginians, a sufet'.
>
> > Why should late Roman writers have equated the title of the office
> > held by a general/dictator/king of archaic Alba Longa to that of a
> > Phoenician sufet?
> ********
>    An answer to the last question occurred to me, but it seemed too
> unlikely to mention.
>    But since in his later post, Francesco quoted Noonan in a
> scholarly journal postulating equally obscure puns, here it is for
> Cybalist:
>   "Suffetius" implied that Fufetius, an archetype of personal
> perfidy, adumbrated Punica fides, the archetype of national perfidy
> to the Romans.


In the same vein:
Ernout-Meillet, only entry with fuf-
fufae: "pouah"; interiectio mali odoris ... ; cf. fu.


Torsten

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "mkelkar2003" <swatimkelkar@...> wrote:
>
>
http://delivery.acm.org/10.1145/150000/146390/p339-batagelj.pdf?key1=146390&key2\
=6896835711&coll=&dl=ACM&CFID=15151515&CFTOKEN=6184618
>
> This is an unusal study in terms of the selctionof langauges.  The
> position of Persian and Albanian are notable.

Ah!  The Sino-Celto-Albanian group!

> Persian is no where
> close to Indic languages.

The alogrithms are too crude and the data too limited to pick out the
remoter connections.  It didn't pick up Indo-European in general or
Austronesian.  (It picked up Malay and Indonesian, but they're the
same language.)

The data, of course, is a mess.  There are some very odd 'Sanskrit'
forms.  There may also be some transcription effects - I was surprised
that Tunisian Arabic and Hebrew came out close than Maltese, which
originated from Arabic.  I suspect this may be due to ayin being
transliterated as zero for Arabic and Hebrew, as opposed to 'gtr' for
Maltese.  ('tr' is there ASCIIfication of Maltese 'h with stroke' -
Planck's constant divided by two pi for many of us.)

Richard.

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "mkelkar2003" <swatimkelkar@...> wrote:
> Three dimensional map in Fig 6.8 of the link below. Germanic falls by
> the wayside.
>
http://linguistics.berkeley.edu/~kjohnson/quantitative/historical/historical.pdf

Figure 6.3 is easier to read for the details.

Isn't this tree based on comparisons of spellings?  I strongly suspect
Grimm's law has a lot to do with the distinctiveness of Germanic.

Notice also that NW Germanic (East Germanic is not represented) has
its deepest difference between English and the rest.  This phenetic
comparison, not phylogenetic.

Try this thought-experiment.  Cypher a language by shifting each vowel
to the next in alphabetic order, and each consonant to the next in
alphabetic order.  (The spelling comparison is aware of the difference
  consonants and vowels - I wonder how that was handled for Welsh!)
Now, cladistically, the cyphered language and the original should
always appear in the same group.  But of you added the cyphered
language, I rather suspect that the cyphered language would appear in
a branch of its own coordinate with the rest of Indo-European!

We have no reason to think that Johnson is unaware of this.  He does
caution that the spelling method may be sensitive to orthographic
conventions.

I wonder where French written according to the non-Gallicising
orthographic conventions of Haitian Creole and Pig Latin would show up
in such analyses.

Richard.

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "mkelkar2003" <swatimkelkar@...> wrote:
>
>
http://delivery.acm.org/10.1145/150000/146390/p339-batagelj.pdf?key1=146390&key2\
=6896835711&coll=&dl=ACM&CFID=15151515&CFTOKEN=6184618
>
> This is an unusal study in terms of the selctionof langauges.  The
> position of Persian and Albanian are notable. Persian is no where
> close to Indic languages.
>
> M. Kelkar
*********
    I looked at the tree diagrams in the paper referenced above with
some amazement, and went on to do my daily check of Language Log
(which most people on this list would enjoy)

http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/

which referred me to the perfect comment on nonlinguists' linguistic
tree diagrams, just out on April 1!

http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004358.html#more

FORESTER HIRED IN LINGUISTICS DEPARTMENT

WAYUPNORTH--

In a desperate effort to make linguistic tree drawings more
understandable to the linguistically unwashed, North Orizen Junior
Technical University yesterday proposed hiring an experienced
forester, Kari "Woody" Leohtenen, as a tenured full professor in its
newly created linguistics department. "Mr. Leohtenen has no background
whatsoever in linguistics, which makes him the ideal candidate," said
the dean, "but I'm sure that my brother-in-law's many years of
experience in the timber industry will prove invaluable to our
linguists as they try to prune what they call language tree diagrams.
I'm told that right and left branching leads to semantic
confusion--and we have a lot of this in our faculty meetings. We're
also hoping that Woody can teach one of those critical languages that
Homeland Security keeps harping about, like Finnish."

Mr. Leohtenen took his B.S. in Forestry at the University of Montana,
a state known historically for wiping out its ponderosa pines to stoke
the smelters of the state's now-defunct copper mines. Recent years
have seen a glut of foresters on the job market and so North Orizen's
experiment in cross-disciplinary cooperation is being heralded as a
boon for otherwise unemployed specialists in the rapidly declining
timber industry.

"It doesn't matter that I'll have to take a 50% cut in pay," said
Leohtenen. "The chance to be a big-time, highfalutin university
professor is worth it. Anyways, foresters don't have much to do these
days and I was probably about to get laid off." Despite the dean's
hearty endorsement, somewhat muted concerns about Leohtenen's lack of
qualifications were voiced by a few apparently disgruntled faculty
members. "I doubt he knows a stripling from a stripped cleft sluice,"
gruffed the newly hired syntactician. And the new phoneticican added,
"He probably thinks the alveolar ridge is somewhere in the Rocky
Mountains."

University administrators say that they don't intend to stop here.
Their next step in their "Hiring-Across-Disciplines" strategy is to
locate a forester who will specialize in the poetry of Joyce Kilmer
for the English department. "After that," said one top-level official
who asked that he not be identified, "we may examine the possibility
of using foresters to teach math logarithms."

    BTW, M. Kelkar's postings a week or two ago reminded me I really
should have a copy of Mallory & Adams' Oxford Introduction.  I found a
second-hand but "like new" copy offered for a very reasonable price on
Amazon by one M. Kelkar.
    Thank You, Mayuresh, I'm really enjoying it!
Dan

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
<miguelc@...> wrote:

> >Ringe's _From Proto-Indo-European to Proto-Germanic_ (OUP, 2006);
this
> >particular chapter is available online as a PDF:
>
> The following paragraph caught my eye:
>
> A laryngeal which was separated from an o-grade vowel by a
> sonorant, but was in the same syllable as the o-grade vowel,
> was dropped (cf. Beekes 1969: 74-6, 238-42, 254-5). For
> instance, whereas the laryngeal of *dheh1- "put" survived in
> the derived noun *dhóh1mos "thing put" (cf. Gk. tho:mós
> "heap" and OE do:m "judgment", both with long vowels that
> reveal the prior presence of a laryngeal), that of *terh1-
> "bore" was dropped in *tórmos "borehole" (cf. Gk tórmos
> "socket" and OE ţearm "intestine"). The most important
> application of this rule was in the thematic optative, in
> which the sequence */-o-yh1-/ was reduced to *-oy- in most
> forms.

Thanks, Miguel, for showing us this. It is of course outrageous.
Hasn't anybody really understood the message of the o-infix theory?
The laryngeal-deleting vocalism is not *just any o*, but *only* the
particular kind of /o/ that emerges from an earlier infixed
consonant (which was still earlier a prefix), as I have presented at
great length in my book Studien zur Morphophonemik der
indogermanischen Grundsprache from 1989. Of the material mentioned,
*tórmos is indeed an example of this, but the thematic optative is
not, and indeed the thematic optative did not lose the laryngeal
which is plain to see in the Balto-Slavic accent. There just is no
vocalization of laryngeals after i-diphthong which is another PIE
phonotactic rule of relevance.

On this list the matter has been discussed a number of times, always
ending on a positive note. The best summary of the theory in
existence is still the message # 30940. I refer anybody interested
to that.

Jens

> R.S.P. Beekes, _The Origin of the Etruscans_, Amsterdam, Koninklijke
> Nederlandse Akademie van Wetenschappen, 2003; the booklet, which
> seems to be a fundamental philological study in my profane eyes, can
> be downloaded in PDF format at
>
> http://www.knaw.nl/publicaties/pdf/20021051.pdf
>

Palmer, The Greek Language, p. 113:
"
The poems attributed to Theognis of Dorian Megara, whose floruit was
the middle of the sixth century B.C., are in fact a collection of
elegiac verses and sympotic songs from various hands, and there
appears to be no way of sifting out what is authentic. The language
conforms to the conventions of Ionian elegy but with greater
receptivity to non-Ionic Homerisms. A few Doricisms have been
detected: genitive Euró:ta:, paiá:no:n 779, the infinitives phéugen
260 and e~men 960. Doric words are le:~i, 'wishes', 'wants' 299 and
mo:~sthai 'covet' 771.
Above it was noted that linguistically little or nothing distinguishes
the elegiacs of Archilochus from the 'iamboi'. More clearly separated
are the two genres in Semonides of Amorgos (second half of the seventh
century B.C.) if it is correct to attribute to him the elegiacs Fr. 29
Diehl (ascribed by Stobaeus to Simonides) which offer the Aeolic
Homerisms éeipen, ge:rasémen and potí. His iambics adhere closely to
the Ionic dialect (there are no genitives in -010, datives in -essi,
etc.) and, unlike Archilochus, he uses hókou, kot(e), hoke:, and hóko:s.
Archilochus and Semonides are linked by Lucian (Pseudol. 2) with
Hipponax of Ephesus (sixth century B.C.), another writer
of 'iamboi', who gave the iambic trimeter a twist by making the last
foot into a spondee, thus inventing the kholíambos ('lame iambos'),
also called skázo:n ('limping'). His language comes closer to the
everyday speech of the Ionians who had imposed themselves on a mixed
native population with various ethnic elements such as Lydians,
Carians, and Maeonians. Hipponax betrays some knowledge of Maeonian in
Fr. 3:
ébo:se Máie:s pai~da Kullé:ne:s pálmun
Erme:~ kunágka Me:oniotě Kandau~la.
po:ro:~n etai~re, deu~ró moi skapardeu~sai
'He called upon (ébo:se, with Ionic contraction of ebóe:se) the son of
Maia, the Lord of Cyllene, "O dog-strangling Hermes, called Kandaulas
in Maeonian, Companion of Thieves, come back me up".'
Here skapardéuo: is evidently a native word having some such meaning.
The Greek epithet kunágka ('dog-strangler') appears to be a
translation of Kandaulas, which is open to etymological interpretation
as a compound of kan- 'dog' and an l-derivative from the root *dhau-
'strangle' that is reflected in O. Sl. daviti 'strangle'. Another
foreign intruder is pálmus 'king', this time from Lydian, as is káue:s
'priest', 'soothsayer' (cf. kaves´ on a Lydian inscription from
Sardis). The last occurs in Fr. 4 Masson in a verse which gives an
idea of the tang of this linguistic hotchpotch: Kíko:n o pandále:tos
ámmoros káue:s, 'Kiko:n the broken-down, luckless priest'. Kíko:n is a
Thracian ethnic, and two epithets in the grand manner qualify the
Lydian káue:s: pandále:tos links up with de:léomai (cf. phrenodalé:s
Aesch. Eum. 330), while ámmoros is taken straight from Homer.
"

This doesn't look good for Maeonian being of the Etruscan family, as
Beekes wants it to be. Unless Hipponax is pulling our leg by
mock-translating words that were known by his audience to have a
different derivation (dog-strangling?!).


Torsten

Seems that Hekto:r etymology is an IE one :
The -to:r termination belongs to *-ter PIE suffix, representing an IE
suffix forming agent nouns from the verb stem

Regarding Hek- this was put in link with Greek ekhein 'to hold' < PIE
*seg^H- 'to hold, to possess, to conquer'

But as I know, Hekto:r was Trojan not Greek, so why we need to
consider his name having a Greek origin?

Argument Against a Greek Etymology:
   1. - If the Trojans were IE-peoples, to derive Hekto:r from another
root is not impossible
   2. - Priam and Hecuba seems to be Non-Greek Names (not to talk
about Paris)
   3. - there are no cases in the ancient (Decebalus) or today history
(Sadam Hussein) where the original names are changed (there are
misspellings for sure, but no changes)

A greek etymology will raise also the following question:
  a) Why we have this mixture of Greek and 'Trojans' names for Trojans
at Homer: do we need to consider a Greek influence in that areal or
at least, a ruler Trojan Family having Greek members?
  b) because to consider that Homer invented all that names, or
changed 'half of them' will not be a good thing...

Marius

On Sun, 01 Apr 2007 14:12:25 -0000, Jens Elmegĺrd Rasmussen
<elme@...> wrote:

>--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
><miguelc@...> wrote:
>
>> >Ringe's _From Proto-Indo-European to Proto-Germanic_ (OUP, 2006);
>this
>> >particular chapter is available online as a PDF:
>>
>> The following paragraph caught my eye:
>>
>> A laryngeal which was separated from an o-grade vowel by a
>> sonorant, but was in the same syllable as the o-grade vowel,
>> was dropped (cf. Beekes 1969: 74-6, 238-42, 254-5). For
>> instance, whereas the laryngeal of *dheh1- "put" survived in
>> the derived noun *dhóh1mos "thing put" (cf. Gk. tho:mós
>> "heap" and OE do:m "judgment", both with long vowels that
>> reveal the prior presence of a laryngeal), that of *terh1-
>> "bore" was dropped in *tórmos "borehole" (cf. Gk tórmos
>> "socket" and OE ţearm "intestine"). The most important
>> application of this rule was in the thematic optative, in
>> which the sequence */-o-yh1-/ was reduced to *-oy- in most
>> forms.
>
>Thanks, Miguel, for showing us this. It is of course outrageous.
>Hasn't anybody really understood the message of the o-infix theory?

Apparently not. For instance, H. Craig Melchert ("Anatolian
Historical Phonology") discusses "Saussure's Law" (pp.
49-51) at reasonable length without mentioning the o-infix
hypothesis even once.  Most of the discussion is about HRo-
> Ro-, but his two examples of -oRH- > -oR- in Hittite are
kalmara- "ray, beam" < *k^olh2mo-ro- and palwa:(i)- "to
clap", interpreted as a denominative verb from a noun
*pol2weh2-. At first sight, those two, being thematic
derivatives, seem to to conform to the restriction that "The
laryngeal-deleting vocalism is not *just any o*, but *only*
the particular kind of /o/ that emerges from an earlier
infixed consonant (which was still earlier a prefix) ..."

=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
miguelc@...

Seems that Hekto:r etymology is an IE one :
The -to:r termination belongs to *-ter PIE suffix, representing an IE
suffix forming agent nouns from the verb stem

Regarding Hek- this was put in link with Greek ekhein 'to hold' < PIE
*seg^H- 'to hold, to possess, to conquer'

But as I know, Hekto:r was Trojan not Greek, so why we need to
consider his name having a Greek origin?

Argument Against a Greek Etymology:
1. - If the Trojans were IE-peoples, to derive Hekto:r from another
root is not impossible
2. - Priam and Hecuba seems to be Non-Greek Names (not to talk
about Paris)
3. - there are no cases in the ancient (Decebalus) or today history
(Sadam Hussein) where the original names are changed (there are
misspellings for sure, but no changes)

A greek etymology will raise also the following question:
a) Why we have this mixture of Greek and 'Trojans' names for Trojans
at Homer: do we need to consider a Greek influence in that areal or
at least, a ruler Trojan Family having Greek members?
b) because to consider that Homer invented all that names, or
changed 'half of them' will not be a good thing...

Marius

***HOW TO BEHAVE ON CYBALIST***

Moderatorial Recommendations and Rules of Proper Conduct

The purpose of Cybalist is to popularise Indo-European studies and to provide a
discussion forum for people who are interested in the various linguistic,
cultural and historical aspects of IE scholarship.

Cybalist is not moderated in the strict technical sense: the moderators do not
have to see all the messages before they are posted to the members. However, as
an elementary precaution against Internet hooligans and spammers, new members
remain moderated until they start posting regularly. A 'moderated' message has
to wait for approval, which may take from a few minutes to a few hours. It may
also be rejected by a moderator if it violates our rules of proper conduct (see
below).

Our primary duty as list managers is to maintain a decent level of discussion
and to make sure that out debates are conducted in a civil manner. We reserve
the right to judge whether your postings are conducive to that purpose or not.
If we find that a particular poster's behaviour is wilfully counterproductive,
we shall react by issuing a warning off-list. If the warning has no effect, we
can restrict the poster's privileges by changing his or her status to
'moderated' for about two weeks. Recidivists may expect a longer probation
period. Since the public discussion of administrative and disciplinary problems
on Cybalist would cause undesirable distraction, any complaints, concerns or
suggestions regarding such matters should be sent to us off-list. Should anyone
prefer a public discussion of them, we have established a separate forum called
Cybalist_admin,

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist_admin/

where you can speak your mind freely before all the moderators and before
anybody alse who wishes to join that list.

----------

DON'T DO IT

Here is a list of things that are explicitly forbidden on Cybalist. Infraction
will result in disciplinary action on the moderators' part, from off-list
notification to immediate removal from Cybalist, depending on the seriousness of
the offence. It is recommended that Cybalist members should save this list for
future reference.

(1) Spam

Anyone caught spamming (that is, posting off-topic commercial advertisements or
other unwanted junk) will be removed from Cybalist without warning.

(2) Off-topic postings and pseudoscience

Since this list is devoted to Indo-European studies, the discussion of
extraneous or too general topics (e.g. other language families, the origin of
language, long-range comparison etc.) will be discouraged. There are other lists
where subjects like general linguistic, Nostratic studies, anthropology, etc.,
may be discussed more profitably. We assume that there is a nearly unanimous
consensus among the list's managers and regular posters as to what should and
what should not be discussed. While the discussion of controversial issues is
welcome on the list, there are certain limits that we should like to be
observed. In particular, we will not encourage the pursuit of pseudoscience, by
which we understand, for example, amateurish decipherments of ancient scripts,
racist theories, speculation about the language spoken in Atlantis or in the
Garden of Eden, demonstrations that Latvian and Sumerian are practically the
same language, or anything else that sinks below the level at which serious
discussion is possible.

(3) Idées fixes

Please do not treat Cybalist as your private forum. Posters who attempt to
publicise their private obsessions had better look for some other audience.
Anyone who tries to dominate the discussion by sending an immoderate number of
messages on a single topic may expect hear from the moderators off-list. In the
interest of the group we may shut down a tired thread. In such cases, if you
want to protest or ask the moderators to re-open the thread, please get in touch
with one of us off-list or write to Cybalist_admin.

(4) Flaming, trolling and ad hominem attacks

Please avoid deliberate rudeness, aggressive language, addressing the
personalities of other members rather than their arguments, and other forms of
disruptive behaviour. Posters who seem to enjoy irritating other participants or
provoking violent exchanges will be given time out at short notice: their
posting rights may be revoked for about two weeks. If you feel provoked or
insulted by somebody else, please don't hesitate to complain to the moderators
(privately or on Cybalist_admin) rather than repay insults in kind.

(5) Flogging dead horses and reviving banned threads

We also wish to discourage attempts to resurrect a closed thread if the poster
has no fresh ideas to contribute. The list archive is searchable, and before you
raise a topic you should at least try to check if it has not been discussed in
the past months. If we find a thread objectionable and announce its termination,
any posters who want to post their final thoughts on it may do so within 24
hours. After that time, any attempt to revive a banned thread within two weeks
of its termination may be punished with a brief (one or two weeks) restriction
of the offender's posting rights.

----------

TECHNICAL RECOMMENDATIONS

(1) Post plain-text messages rather than HTML. Fancy backgrounds, colours and
fonts are dispensable.

(2) To minimise readability problems, use 'West European' encoding (that is, the
'Latin-1' or ISO-8859-1 character set) whenever possible. If you find it
necessary to use something more sophisticated (e.g. UTF-8), do so sparingly and
don't forget to warn the list.

(3) Avoid sending attachments with your postings. Any pictures, Word or PDF
documents, etc. that you'd like to share with other list members should be
uploaded to the Files area instead. Please remember that copyrighted materials
have to be handled without breaking the legal restrictions on their fair use.
When in doubt, consult the moderators.

(4) When responding to others' postings, quote only those fragments of the
original message that you want to reply to. In particular, do not quote whole
threads. Make sure that the quotations are properly marked, so that one can
easily see who wrote what.

(5) If your reply drifts away from the original topic, change the subject line
(e.g. 'IE loanwords in Hurrian [was: The Indo-Iranian homeland]').

The above prohibitions and recommendations are tentative and may evolve further.
We will keep you informed if we decide to modify them in the future.

Piotr Gasiorowski

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen"
<tgpedersen@...> wrote:
<< "O dog-strangling Hermes, called Kandaulas in Maeonian,
Companion of Thieves, come back me up".'

  ....(dog-strangling?!).>>

In LS, "dog-throttler". One must kill or at least silence the
watchdog to steal the cattle -- Herakles kills the watchdog when
he goes to take the cattle of  Geryon.  Hermes Argeiphontes lulls
the guard Argos (perhaps a dog? -- Odyssseus' dog was called
Argos) to sleep before he kills him.  Kandaules also the name of
a king of Lydia according to Herodotus.

Steve Long

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Wordingham" <richard@...> wrote:
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "mkelkar2003" <swatimkelkar@> wrote:
> >
> >
>
http://delivery.acm.org/10.1145/150000/146390/p339-batagelj.pdf?key1=146390&key2\
=6896835711&coll=&dl=ACM&CFID=15151515&CFTOKEN=6184618
> >
> > This is an unusal study in terms of the selctionof langauges.  The
> > position of Persian and Albanian are notable.
>
> Ah!  The Sino-Celto-Albanian group!
>
> > Persian is no where
> > close to Indic languages.
>
> The alogrithms are too crude and the data too limited to pick out the
> remoter connections.  It didn't pick up Indo-European in general or
> Austronesian.  (It picked up Malay and Indonesian, but they're the
> same language.)
>
> The data, of course, is a mess.  There are some very odd 'Sanskrit'
> forms.  There may also be some transcription effects - I was surprised
> that Tunisian Arabic and Hebrew came out close than Maltese, which
> originated from Arabic.  I suspect this may be due to ayin being
> transliterated as zero for Arabic and Hebrew, as opposed to 'gtr' for
> Maltese.  ('tr' is there ASCIIfication of Maltese 'h with stroke' -
> Planck's constant divided by two pi for many of us.)
>
> Richard.


They claim that the results are similar to the more well know study by
Kruskal, Dyen and Black.

"We can mention that clusters we found with cluster analysis are very
close to the
language families established in linguistics (Kruskal, Dyen, and Black
1971)."

Tamil and Kannada are clustering  with Hindi and Sanskrit! (rather
than Persian)

M. Kelkar

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "mkelkar2003" <swatimkelkar@...> wrote:

> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Wordingham" <richard@> wrote:

> They claim that the results are similar to the more well know study by
> Kruskal, Dyen and Black.
>
> "We can mention that clusters we found with cluster analysis are very
> close to the
> language families established in linguistics (Kruskal, Dyen, and Black
> 1971)."

The clusters they found were Slavic, Germanic, Romance and Indic.
They say nothing about the clusters they didn't find.  They should
have been disappointed by the failure to cluster Arabic and Maltese.
That puts the failure to pick up Indo-Iranian into context.  Note also
that their performance with Celtic (Welsh and Irish) is not good.

> Tamil and Kannada are clustering  with Hindi and Sanskrit! (rather
> than Persian)

Take another look!  Look at the trees, not just at the orders in which
the languages are listed in the results.  The Dravidian languages are
in the 'others' group.  With the exception of the anomalous behaviour
of Telugu under the insertion/deletion/substitution metric, the
Dravidian languages, Tamil, Kannada, Telugu and Malayalam, form a
subcluster within the 'others' group.

Incidentally, I'm not sure that it is reasonable to say that Sanskrit
was included in their list.  Their Sanskrit list has several Hindi
forms in it, which results in the similarity of Hindi and Sanskrit
being overstated.

Did you notice that English comes out as a North Germanic language?

Richard.

Cuadrado wrote:

>Hello
>does Germanic name Hild- can be connect with Celtic
>Kelt- = to strike?
>see here :
>http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=hild&searchmode=none
>
>thanks

The germanic Hild-

(or Child- for the Frankish spelling, e.g. Childeric
(king of the Franks), Childebert = Hilderich (king of
the Vandals), Hildebert, Hildebrecht)

means "fight, battle, struggle"; e.g. in Old High
German hiltja.

The article on the webpage with the URL above also says:

<<O.H.G. hild "war, battle.">>
[hild is actually in Old Saxon/Altsćchsisch]

George



PS1: Jordanes's Ildico/Ildiko (Attila's wife) is a variant
of Hilde or Hilda (e.g. Hildegard, Hildegund/e, Hildegundis,
Hil(d)tr(a)ud, Brunhild/e, Krimhild/e, Gerhild).

PS2: One Hilde & Ireland nexus: Hilde and Hetel
http://www.timelessmyths.com/norse/kudrun.html#Hilde
http://www.timelessmyths.com/norse/kudrun.html

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@...>
wrote:
>
> But there are plenty of cases of name changes, especially when
dealing with´"barbarians" --there are translations, as in the case of
my Shawnee ancestor "Cornstalk"; also see Red Cloud, Sitting Bull,
etc. There are corruptions, as in the case of Sorley Boy Mac Donald
from Somherlaidh Buidhe (sp?) who was therefore a blond rather than a
kid, as well as Scanderbeg who surely neither scampered nor begged --
and wasn´t his given name George? Even Saddam Hussein is said to have
reversed his name from Hussein Saddam. And then there are arbitrarily
given names or nicknames such as Geronimo, Barbarossa (the North
African corsairs, as well as the German emperor). Given that we live
in more literate times, we can´t fully appreciate the opportunities
for false etymologies, embellishments, etc. from peoples with oral
literature.


1) One of the peoples making 'oral literature' was Homer himself...
So that 'you [pl.]?' that 'can't fully appreciate the oral
literature', are in 'a delicate situation' when 'you [pl.]?' start to
talk about this.

2) Could you also deduce that the usage of the plural form ('we')
above is not appropriate? And I say this to help you.

3) On the other hand, in the 'literate world' (that you invoked
trying to make implicit inclusions) the presence of the Greeks names
together with 'Trojans' Names in Troja (Homer) are really a subject
of disputes and interpretations
But it's not my fault that you are not aware of this.

3) Next, 'nobody' (to folow your 'we' construction) in the 'literate
world' talk about Greek adaptations of Barbarians names at Homer (not
to talk about corruptions as 'Sorley Boy Mac Donald cases'): there
are two classes of names rather distinct: the Greek Names and the Non-
Greek Ones. Do 'you (pl.)' know this?

4) Finally you nervous reaction doesn't belong neither to the 'oral
literature' nor to 'the written one'...

Marius

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Wordingham" <richard@...> wrote:
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "mkelkar2003" <swatimkelkar@> wrote:
>
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Wordingham" <richard@>
wrote:
>
> > They claim that the results are similar to the more well know study by
> > Kruskal, Dyen and Black.
> >
> > "We can mention that clusters we found with cluster analysis are very
> > close to the
> > language families established in linguistics (Kruskal, Dyen, and Black
> > 1971)."
>
> The clusters they found were Slavic, Germanic, Romance and Indic.
> They say nothing about the clusters they didn't find.

Perhaps because those clusters are so weird.

They should
> have been disappointed by the failure to cluster Arabic and Maltese.
> That puts the failure to pick up Indo-Iranian into context.  Note also
> that their performance with Celtic (Welsh and Irish) is not good.
>
> > Tamil and Kannada are clustering  with Hindi and Sanskrit! (rather
> > than Persian)
>
> Take another look!  Look at the trees, not just at the orders in which
> the languages are listed in the results.  The Dravidian languages are
> in the 'others' group.

Yes, but the 'others' group splits into 'Dravidian' and then after
another split into Greek and Lithuanian/Lativian the, latter being
very close to Sanskrit. Agreed that Sanskrit coding is not that good.
They should have used 'pita' instead of 'baap.'


  With the exception of the anomalous behaviour
> of Telugu under the insertion/deletion/substitution metric, the
> Dravidian languages, Tamil, Kannada, Telugu and Malayalam, form a
> subcluster within the 'others' group.
>
> Incidentally, I'm not sure that it is reasonable to say that Sanskrit
> was included in their list.  Their Sanskrit list has several Hindi
> forms in it, which results in the similarity of Hindi and Sanskrit
> being overstated.
>
> Did you notice that English comes out as a North Germanic language?
>
> Richard.
>

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "mkelkar2003" <swatimkelkar@...> wrote:
>
> http://delivery.acm.org/10.1145/150000/146390/p339-batagelj.pdf?
key1=146390&key2=6896835711&coll=&dl=ACM&CFID=15151515&CFTOKEN=6184618
>
> This is an unusal study in terms of the selctionof langauges.  The
> position of Persian and Albanian are notable. Persian is no where
> close to Indic languages.
>
> M. Kelkar
>

In order to apply an automatic clustering algorithm in Computer Science
you need to know something in advance about the mathematical properties
of the classes that you hope to identify using this algorithm.

I mean: As any other Mathematical Model, the Model is good but you need
to know how and when (in what context) you can apply it.

And I'm afraid that they didn't.

Marius

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "mkelkar2003" <swatimkelkar@...> wrote:

> Yes, but the 'others' group splits into 'Dravidian' and then after
> another split into Greek and Lithuanian/Lativian the, latter being
> very close to Sanskrit.

The 'others' group contains *all* the non-Indo-European languages in
the study.

I suspect that the Graeco-Baltic group is largely the group where
masculine substantives have final -s in the nominative singular. The
study comes close to isolating a Finno-Maori group.  The latter is
probably capturing a similarity between typical Finnish words and the
typical Maori words.  Remember that the metrics are quite crude, and
they do not capture the notion of a regular sound change.  It would be
fun to obtain the analysis program and see how sensitive the analysis
was to minor changes in the presentation of the data.  I don't have
time to do it.

Richard.

That book (Anatolian Historical Phonology) is a treasure-trove of
roots and derived forms lacking in the Mallory-Adams book. It's really
quite amazing; I'd say it might be well worth adding some of the
suggested PIE roots that Melchert reconstructs there into a PIE list.
I myself started such a list, but sadly I had to return the book to
the library. I hope to take it out again tomorrow and continue the
job. It's quite wonderful.

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Miguel Carrasquer Vidal <miguelc@...>
wrote:
>
> On Sun, 01 Apr 2007 14:12:25 -0000, Jens Elmegĺrd Rasmussen
> <elme@...> wrote:
>
> >--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
> ><miguelc@> wrote:
> >
> >> >Ringe's _From Proto-Indo-European to Proto-Germanic_ (OUP, 2006);
> >this
> >> >particular chapter is available online as a PDF:
> >>
> >> The following paragraph caught my eye:
> >>
> >> A laryngeal which was separated from an o-grade vowel by a
> >> sonorant, but was in the same syllable as the o-grade vowel,
> >> was dropped (cf. Beekes 1969: 74-6, 238-42, 254-5). For
> >> instance, whereas the laryngeal of *dheh1- "put" survived in
> >> the derived noun *dhóh1mos "thing put" (cf. Gk. tho:mós
> >> "heap" and OE do:m "judgment", both with long vowels that
> >> reveal the prior presence of a laryngeal), that of *terh1-
> >> "bore" was dropped in *tórmos "borehole" (cf. Gk tórmos
> >> "socket" and OE ţearm "intestine"). The most important
> >> application of this rule was in the thematic optative, in
> >> which the sequence */-o-yh1-/ was reduced to *-oy- in most
> >> forms.
> >
> >Thanks, Miguel, for showing us this. It is of course outrageous.
> >Hasn't anybody really understood the message of the o-infix theory?
>
> Apparently not. For instance, H. Craig Melchert ("Anatolian
> Historical Phonology") discusses "Saussure's Law" (pp.
> 49-51) at reasonable length without mentioning the o-infix
> hypothesis even once.  Most of the discussion is about HRo-
> > Ro-, but his two examples of -oRH- > -oR- in Hittite are
> kalmara- "ray, beam" < *k^olh2mo-ro- and palwa:(i)- "to
> clap", interpreted as a denominative verb from a noun
> *pol2weh2-. At first sight, those two, being thematic
> derivatives, seem to to conform to the restriction that "The
> laryngeal-deleting vocalism is not *just any o*, but *only*
> the particular kind of /o/ that emerges from an earlier
> infixed consonant (which was still earlier a prefix) ..."
>
> =======================
> Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
> miguelc@...
>

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
.......................
> This doesn't look good for Maeonian being of the Etruscan family, as
> Beekes wants it to be. ..............

Beekes does not claim Maeonian belonged to the Etruscan family, he
claims that Etruscan was a remnant language located in the same area of
Anatolia as was Maeonian(later Lydian)before being displaced by
Phrygian invasions.

Regards,
Ned Smith

I'm sure that this is really not the forum for this,
but there are plenty of texts that deal with literacy
and orality, Walter J. Ong's being one of them. My
point is that even literate societies often replace
the name of the other. You might want to check out
cultural theory that deals with the other. When I say
that those of us who have been schooled in literate
societies really can't appreciate oral literature, I
do make a value judgement but one based on common
sense. Again see works on orality vs literate
societies. Don't just take my word.
The point in my posting is that there are plenty of
name changes. Why should the Greeks be different.
BTW: How about Biblical names of the other? Names of
the other in other sacred texts.
Another example that comes to mind is Abu-Abd-Allah,
the last king of Muslim Granada in present day Spain.
In Spanish, his name was corrupted to Bodadilla el
Chico. Bobadilla is a false etymology in Spanish
roughly meaning "foolishness, idiocy".

--- alexandru_mg3 <alexandru_mg3@...> wrote:

> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Rick McCallister
> <gabaroo6958@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > But there are plenty of cases of name changes,
> especially when
> dealing with´"barbarians" --there are translations,
> as in the case of
> my Shawnee ancestor "Cornstalk"; also see Red Cloud,
> Sitting Bull,
> etc. There are corruptions, as in the case of Sorley
> Boy Mac Donald
> from Somherlaidh Buidhe (sp?) who was therefore a
> blond rather than a
> kid, as well as Scanderbeg who surely neither
> scampered nor begged --
> and wasn´t his given name George? Even Saddam
> Hussein is said to have
> reversed his name from Hussein Saddam. And then
> there are arbitrarily
> given names or nicknames such as Geronimo,
> Barbarossa (the North
> African corsairs, as well as the German emperor).
> Given that we live
> in more literate times, we can´t fully appreciate
> the opportunities
> for false etymologies, embellishments, etc. from
> peoples with oral
> literature.
>
>
> 1) One of the peoples making 'oral literature' was
> Homer himself...
> So that 'you [pl.]?' that 'can't fully appreciate
> the oral
> literature', are in 'a delicate situation' when 'you
> [pl.]?' start to
> talk about this.
>
> 2) Could you also deduce that the usage of the
> plural form ('we')
> above is not appropriate? And I say this to help
> you.
>
> 3) On the other hand, in the 'literate world' (that
> you invoked
> trying to make implicit inclusions) the presence of
> the Greeks names
> together with 'Trojans' Names in Troja (Homer) are
> really a subject
> of disputes and interpretations
> But it's not my fault that you are not aware of
> this.
>
> 3) Next, 'nobody' (to folow your 'we' construction)
> in the 'literate
> world' talk about Greek adaptations of Barbarians
> names at Homer (not
> to talk about corruptions as 'Sorley Boy Mac Donald
> cases'): there
> are two classes of names rather distinct: the Greek
> Names and the Non-
> Greek Ones. Do 'you (pl.)' know this?
>
> 4) Finally you nervous reaction doesn't belong
> neither to the 'oral
> literature' nor to 'the written one'...
>
> Marius
>
>
>
>
>
>




________________________________________________________________________________\
____
8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "ehlsmith" <ehlsmith@...> wrote:
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> .......................
> > This doesn't look good for Maeonian being of the Etruscan family,
> > as Beekes wants it to be. ..............
>
> Beekes does not claim Maeonian belonged to the Etruscan family, he
> claims that Etruscan was a remnant language located in the same area
> of Anatolia as was Maeonian(later Lydian)before being displaced by
> Phrygian invasions.
>

He doesn't mention the language of the Maeonians at all,
unfortunately, but he says this:
"
Another consideration is that in the tradition on the origin of the
Etruscans it is stated that the Lydian people were divided in two
parts, one being that of the later Etruscans, the other, under the
king's son Lydos changing their name (from `Maeonians') into
`Lydians'. This fact is repeated several times, e.g. Hdt. 7, 74: `The
Lydians were earlier called Maeonians, but after Lydos the son of Atys
they got their [present] name, changing their name.'
"
It is strange that they should have been divided by language, so that
Etruscan becomes the language of the emigrés and Lydian the language
of the stay-at-homes. One would expect that to be reflected in
historical accounts.
But also note:
"
8. Loanwords. As to the language, Steinbauer (i999, 367) observes that
Etruscan shows most connections (loanwords) with Lydian and concludes
(p. 389): `Unbezweifelbar steht somit wenigstens die kleinasiatische
Herkunft der etruskischen Sprache fest.'
"
which means that even an indubitable IE word might also have been
Maeionian, cf for a parallel
"
... finds the equation confirmed by the statement of Xanthos the
Lydian ... that the language of the Mysians was `half-Lydian, half-
Phrygian'
".


Torsten

On 'Palmus'
>
> > R.S.P. Beekes, _The Origin of the Etruscans_, Amsterdam,
> > Koninklijke Nederlandse Akademie van Wetenschappen, 2003; the
> > booklet, which seems to be a fundamental philological study in my
> > profane eyes, can be downloaded in PDF format at
> >
> > http://www.knaw.nl/publicaties/pdf/20021051.pdf
> >
>
"
I add a few small observations, which may be relevant for our problem.
One is the name of the Trojan warrior Palmus (Note that names in -us
are typical of Lydian). He is mentioned by Homer N 792, together with
Askanios and Morus, as having come from Askania. In B 863 Askanios is
called a leader of the Phrygians (together with Phorkus). Askania is
in the center of old Maeonia/Ma:sas (the most eastern of the three
lakes there is called Askanie:). Now Palmus is a Lydian name; we have
the word qal.ml.u- `king' in the Lydian texts (Gusmani 1964, 179,
276). The problem is how a Lydian can come from Askania (which is far
north of classical Lydia). In the present context it would confirm
that the Lydians originated from this area. But the conclusion is
not certain. If the word is of Indo-European origin, it may have
occurred not only in Lydian. But there is no Indo-European etymology.
So it will be a loan from a substratum language in Asia Minor, and
from there it may have come not only in Lydian. Further, Homer may
just have used an interesting name, without respect of historical
fact. (Homer probably lived near Lydia, so he must have known many
Lydian names.)
"

> Palmer, The Greek Language, p. 113:
>"
> Hipponax betrays some knowledge of Maeonian in
> Fr. 3:
> ébo:se Máie:s pai~da Kullé:ne:s pálmun
> Erme:~ kunágka Me:oniotě Kandau~la.
> po:ro:~n etai~re, deu~ró moi skapardeu~sai
> 'He called upon (ébo:se, with Ionic contraction of ebóe:se) the son
> of Maia, the Lord of Cyllene, "O dog-strangling Hermes, called
> Kandaulas in Maeonian, Companion of Thieves, come back me up".'
> Here skapardéuo: is evidently a native word having some such
> meaning. The Greek epithet kunágka ('dog-strangler') appears to be a
> translation of Kandaulas, which is open to etymological
> interpretation as a compound of kan- 'dog' and an l-derivative from
> the root *dhau- 'strangle' that is reflected in O. Sl. daviti
> 'strangle'. Another foreign intruder is pálmus 'king', this time
> from Lydian, ...
> "

BTW is Máie:s "the Maionian"?

from
https://ep.eur.nl/bitstream/1765/7686/1/Woudhuizen+bw.pdf
quoted in
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/45724
"
For other instances of magistracies used as personal names,
cf.
Hittite Labarnas < labarna- "king",
Lydian Kandaules < Luwian [?]antawat- "king",
Etruscan Porsenna < pur􀀭ne "prytanos",
Etruscan Camitlna < camthi (title),
Etruscan Macstrna < Latin magister "magistrate",
Latin Lucius < Etruscan lucumo "king",
Phoenician Malchus < mlk- "king", and, from Homeros,
Palmus < Lydian pal1ml1u- "kingship" and
Prutanis < prutanos, again.
"

with yet another interpretation of Kandaules (with 'Anatolian' -l-)

Not that I know at the moment how to make sense of it


Torsten

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Rick McCallister
<gabaroo6958@...> wrote:
<<The point in my posting is that there are plenty of
name changes. Why should the Greeks be different.
BTW: How about Biblical names of the other? Names of
the other in other sacred texts.>>

I'm not positive what you mean, but Paris is also called
Alexander in Homer.  And supposedly Priam was originally
called Podarces and underwent a name change.

A lot of non-Romans in Roman times had double names.  King
Tut changed his name.

Here are some examples from the Bible:
And the king of Babylon made Mattaniah his father's brother king
in his stead, and changed his name to Zedekiah.
2 Kings 24:17

And the king of Egypt made Eliakim his brother king over Judah
and Jerusalem, and turned his name to Jehoiakim.
2 Chronicles 36:4

Maybe this helps.
Steve Long

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Francesco Brighenti" <frabrig@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Also, Vergil was himself from Tuscany. Who knows what he heard
> > > there?
> > >
> > > For the awareness of the Aenes legend among the Etruscans, see
> > > Prof. J.N. Bremmer's paper "The Aeneas-legend from Homer to
> > > Virgil" at
> > >
> > >
http://theol.eldoc.ub.rug.nl/FILES/root/BremmerJN/1987/117/aeneas.pdf
> > > (see esp. pp. 18-9)
> > >
> > > According to Bremmer, "No reliable indications, literary,
> > > religious, inscriptional, or artistic, therefore exist for the
> > > Romans' own interest in Aeneas before, indeed, 300 BC. Stories of
> > > a Trojan founder we have seen are likely to be external creations,
> > > and the growth of a legend of Aeneas in the city of Rome remains
> > > at best an hypothetical by-product of the period of Etruscan
> > > domination" (p. 18).
> >
> > One could imagine a history something like this: Rome was originally
> > an Etruscan city, but Latin Unterwanderung made it Latin-speaking,
> > finally the Etruscan kings were overthrown. After defeating the
> > Etruscan cities, when it became obvious that the Etruscan culture
> > was moribund, Latin active rejection of Etruscan mythological
> > material about the founding of Rome ceased and they appropriated it
> > as their own. That would explain the hiatus in the presence of the
> > Aeneas story in Rome.
> >
> > From the previously referred to
> > http://www.knaw.nl/publicaties/pdf/20021051.pdf
> > "
> > We have in the Lydian inscriptions a name Srkastu-, which may be
> > related to the epithet of Zeus in the city of Tios/n in Bithynia,
> > Surgáste:s, -e:ios, mentioned on coins of that town ... .
> > Hesychius calls it an `ónoma barbarikón (`a non-Greek name'). The
> > word is also found in Phrygian (dat.) Surgastoj. Its meaning is
> > unknown (Footnote: Neumann (1988, 14) discusses Surgáste:s, -to:r.
> > He also mentions Surgastos in Old Phrygian (Dd-102, an inscription
> > identified as Phrygian by Neumann). He assumes that it is a
> > parallel formation in Greek and Phrygian, and derived it from a
> > verb *surgad-yo: (root *swerg- `to care for'), as a nomen actoris
> > resp. a verbal adjective (`der, der für seine Schützlinge sorgt'
> > resp. `der Betreute, Beschützte'). This seems improbable to me. In
  > > the first place, the Greek form is not Greek: it is written in
> > Greek letters, but it is a name, as Hesych states an `ónoma
> > barbarikón, i.e. `a non-Greek name'. The distribution too suggests
> > a Phrygian-Lydian name taken over in Greek. A present in -ad-yo:
> > is unknown in other Indo-European languages and is probably a
> > typical Greek formation. That the s- was preserved in `Greek' is
> > because it was a loanword. We do not know whether it went from
> > Phrygian to Lydian or vice versa; both languages may have it from
> > a substratum. Gusmani (1980/81) considers connection with Hitt.
> > sarku- `high, eminent, powerful'. (His comparison with the type
> > dalugasti- `length' seems not viable to me, as these words are
> > abstracts, which is not probable here.) We should also keep in
> > mind the strange Greek word súrgastros, on which see the
> > etymological dictionaries). If the name is typically Lydian, it
> > might prove the presence of Lydians in Bithynia (which is supposed
> > if Maeonia was Lydian and if Starke's identification of Ma:sas is
> > correct). But the situation could be  explained differently.
> > Gusmani (1980/81) pointed out that -st- is well known in Anatolian
> > onomastics: Mamastis, Pappoustis, Nenestos; Eremastos (Haas 1966,
> > 98), the monster Agdistis. Dr. M.P. Cuypers suggests to me that it
> > wil be continued by (Lat.) Sergestus, the companion of Aeneas (see
> > below, section 4.). I would add the possibility that it is found
> > in the Etruscan name Seks´talus. -alu- is an Etruscan suffix of
> > gentilicia (Rix 1965, 182). Then we may have Seks´t- < *Serkst- <
> > *Serge/ast-. (There is a form Turgaste:s found on Chios, see L.
> > Robert, bch 59, i935, 455, which may be a variant).
> > ...
> > Note that the town Adrasteia, north of Troy, recalls the Lydian
> > personal name Atras´t[a] (with adj. Atras´tali-; see also the
> > comment on atras´ali- in Gusmani 1964,70).
> > ...[summing up]
> > The other fact is that the name Sergestus, of a prominent friend
> > of Aeneas, seems identical with Lydian Srkastu- and Phrygian
> > Surkastos, as dr. M.P. Cuypers suggested to me ... . The point is
> > how Vergil got this name. It is evident that he used it because it
> > fitted in the story. But it is excluded that he got it from Lydia
> > or Phrygia, or Asa Minor in general. So he must have got it at
> > home, from a source that was acquainted with Etruscan traditions.
> > This means that the name was known to the Etruscans (or those who
> > studied their traditions). Above I proposed that it lives on in
> > Etr. Sekst-alu-. So we should be aware that the Aeneis may contain
> > more old elements.
> >
> > "
> > further, note the mention of the river Makestos as the southern
> > border of Ma:sas/Old Maeonia (p. 13)
> >
> > cf. Bremmer's article:
> > "
> > Segesta's Trojan origins (Plut. Nic. 1. 3) are fifth century, and
> > are connected with Athenian diplomatic initiative.
> > ...
> > DH concludes (1. 72. 3) with the statement that
> > Damastes of Sigeum (FGrH 5 F 3) and some others agree with
> > Hellanicus
> > "
> >
> > Sigeum is in the Troad
> > http://www.btinternet.com/~k.trethewey/AncientLights/sigeum.htm
> > "
> > Sigeum (Sigeon or Sigeion)
> >
> > There is a strong possibility that the first lightstructure was at
> > a place known by its Roman name as Sigeum. It is situated about 34
> > km from Çanakkale and is in the region of Yeniköy. At the time,
> > the sea was covering the low-lying land next to this point
> > northwest of Troy and on the southern side of the Hellespont.
> > Sigeum would have been a promontory and a natural place for a
> > daymark or lightstructure. It is also the supposed location for
> > the tomb of Achilles and was of significant strategic importance.
> >
> > One structure built here was known as the Sigeum Pillar. It is
> > said that the Greek poet, Lesches, wrote in 660 BC that there was
> > a guiding light for mariners at Sigeum in the Troad.
> > "
> > so Damastes has a Lydian -st-name and is from the Troad. That
> > should increase the chance that he knew what he was talking about.
> >
> > If, as Beekes suggests, Etruscan Seks´t- < *Serkst- <
> > Lydian-Phrygian *Serge/ast-, then most likely Segestes is the
> > Etruscan verision of Phrygian-Lydian Sergestes.
> >
> > Perhaps Sergest-/Segest- is a person from Sige(s)on?
> > http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1228165
> > That would make the name Siges- originally IE *Serges-, but it
> > wasn't in old Maeonia anyway.
> >
> > On the morphology: more likely it is the -st- of Lat. honos vs
> > honestus; nothing very Greek about that.
> >

The *-ter/*-tor suffix is not just IE, cf Basque and possibly Iberan
-tar in names of origin. So *sig-tor -> Gk. Hekto:r "man from Sigeum
(the i -> e needs an explanation)?


Torsten

Da. turse <- ON ţurs -> PGerm. *ţurasa-, *ţur(i)sa- "troll, giant"
->(loan) Fi. tursas "sea monster"
->
Da. tosse "foolish person"

PGerm.*ţursk-
Da.dial. tyske "troublesome person, supernatural being"
+ reinforcing u-
Da. utyske "repulsive monster, unruly person"

So, PGerm. both *ţurs- and *ţursk-, which means either *-k- was a
suffix (most likely NWBlock) or both *turs- and *tursk- were picked up
from a pre-Germanic substrate.


Torsten

>Homer may
>just have used an interesting name, without respect of historical
>fact. (Homer probably lived near Lydia, so he must have known many
>Lydian names.)

Homer is at the end of a process of epic-writing, not the commencement of
it.  It is highly unlikely that he invented any of the names.

Peter

On 02/04/2007 04:36, Rick McCallister wrote:
> I'm sure that this is really not the forum for this,
> but there are plenty of texts that deal with literacy
> and orality, Walter J. Ong's being one of them. My
> point is that even literate societies often replace
> the name of the other.

This is certainly true.  My first thoughts about the possibility that
Hektor was a Greek (or at least IE) name were perhaps this is a case of
a title or nickname give by Greek-speakers to a non-IE-speaking
person/character -- or simply a case of a non-IE personal name being
replaced by a similar-sounding Greek personal name (or
plausible-sounding personal name construction).

Cheers,
Carl

--
Carl Edlund Anderson
mailto:cea@...
http://www.carlaz.com/

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "ehlsmith" <ehlsmith@...> wrote:
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> .......................
> > This doesn't look good for Maeonian being of the Etruscan family, as
> > Beekes wants it to be. ..............
>
> Beekes does not claim Maeonian belonged to the Etruscan family, he
> claims that Etruscan was a remnant language located in the same area
> of Anatolia as was Maeonian(later Lydian)before being displaced by
> Phrygian invasions.
>

Come to think of it, that would imply that in pre-classical times the
IE Lydians and proto-Etruscan Maeonians lived in the same state, Old
Maeonia, and in classical times, after the Etruscans left, they lived
in separate states, Lydia and Maeonia. That doesn't add up. The
problem is that Beekes doesn't place the Urheimat of the Lydians as he
does for that of the Etruscans/Maeonians. A scenario where Lydia(ns)
expanded from the south into the Dardanelles area would provide that.


Torsten