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Piotr Gasiorowski

This must be the longest dead pause on cybalist since its inception.
Maybe I shouldn't disturb the record?

Torsten

I shouldn't be looking at pages like this:
http://www.paabo.ca/uirala/veneti.html

But there were some ectra facts he wouldn't know that might support his Finnic
koti -> got- etymology.

Here is the Uralic kot- in cybalist:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/56045
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/2005
and in UEW:
'kota 'Zelt, Hütte, Haus' FU
Finn. kota 'Zelt, Hütte der Lappen; Viehküche';
est. koda (Gen. koa) 'Haus, Gebäude, Vorhaus, Sommerküche der Bauern' |
lapp. N. goatte -ð- 'tent; Lapp hut', L kå:hte, K (161) T kiø,tte, Kld. kuø,tt,
Not. kuo,ht, A kø,t 'id.; Tasche, Beutel' |

mord. E kudo, M kud 'Haus, Wohnstube' |

tscher.
KB kuð&^,U kuðo 'die tscheremissische Sommerhütte',
B kuðo 'ein Haus auf dem Hofe, das zur Sommerzeit als Küche benutzt wird' |

wotj.
ka, ko: S kor-ka 'Haus' (kor 'Balken'), vu-ko 'Mühle' (vu 'Wasser'), kwa, K
kwala 'wotjakische Sommerhütte',
G korka 'Haus, Stube' |

syrj. ka, ko, ku:
S ker-ka, P ker-ku, P ke•r-ku, kò•r-ku (ker 'Balken'),
S vic´-ko, P vic´-ku 'Kirche' (vi3´ 'Fasten') |

ostj. (OL 90) V kat, DN xot, O xat 'Haus' |

ung.
ház (Akk. házat) 'Haus; Familie; (altung.) Zimmer', ëgyház 'Kirche',
haza 'heim, nach Hause; Vaterland, Heimat',
házas 'verheiratet, verehelicht'.

>< ? ieur.: *kata-:
aw. kata- 'Kammer, Vorratskammer, Keller',
pers. kad 'Haus'.
Uraltes Wanderwort (vgl.
türk. kota 'Haus',
mong. qota(n) 'Einzäunung, Dorf, Stadt, Haus',
ainuisch kot 'Hausplatz, Platz',
tamil kut.i 'Hütte, Haus').
Vgl. noch
altind. kut.a- 'Festung', kut.i- 'Hütte'.
Die ung. Ableitung házas wurde von mehreren Forschern (Wichmann: FUF 11: 214;
Setälä: FUF 13:376 mit ?; Toivonen: FUF 19:205; Zsirai: MNy. 22:185)
irrtümlicherweise mit finn. kansa 'Volk' und seiner Wortsippe verknüpft. Das
finn. Wort kansa s. unter *kansa 'Volk' FP.'

Obviously I'm free to posit this as a gloss of the ar-/ur- language, substrate
to IE and FU (as well as of other languages).

Now if this is true the this might also be
*kodán- > *gUdán-/*Gdan-, and
*gUdán- > *GUdán- > *gótan-, and
*Gdan- > *dan-

That would make the Danes one of the Got-/Jut- peoples which were already there
in Scandinavia before the Odinist invasion.

Most of Pokorny's roots in *rei- mean something with "round"; I wonder if the
Reidgotar were "those of the round houses"? I don't know if that matches
archaeology.


Torsten

Here's a pronunciation question, about the Saxon invocation that starts

Erce, erce, erce, Eorthan moder

Is the c pronounced ch or k?

Max Dashu

On 2009-05-07 19:28, Max Dashu wrote:

> Here's a pronunciation question, about the Saxon invocation that starts
>
> Erce, erce, erce, Eorthan moder
>
> Is the c pronounced ch or k?

Palatalised ("ch").

Piotr

> OK, but we also have *kot- as in cottage I forget all its cogeners
> but I'm sure they're in the files somewhere, if not in Hubschmid et
> al.

True, I forgot to mention those. And this:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/5929

On the -unya suffix:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/51061


Torsten

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@...> wrote:
>
> --- On Thu, 5/7/09, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
> From: tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...>

> > OK, but we also have *kot- as in cottage I forget all its
> > cogeners
> > but I'm sure they're in the files somewhere, if not in Hubschmid
> > et al.
>
> True, I forgot to mention those. And this:
> http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/5929
>
> On the -unya suffix:
> http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/51061
>
> Torsten

> A true and cunning linguist you are.

Well, thank you, but not quadruply so.

> The s-kut/s-gud does need to be looked atif cott is "shelter",
> maybe the Goths are "protectors", i.e. originally a martial clan;
> but skut- was also linked to "pirate, darkness" in Scot and Scythia

Not in my book; I see them as the oppressed original population of most
Scandinavia who left for greener pastures south of the Baltic, but under leaders
who were part of the Odinist invaders (which is why we know Gothic as a Germanic
language). That explains the mixed cremation/inhumation, they are a
characteristic of the respective groups, as also claimed by Snorri. BTW, if the
Goths had a leading layer who kept to themselves, that would explain the later
limpieza de sangre etc traditions and why their language left so little mark in
the Romance countries they conquered.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wielbark_Culture
This article has the usual 'please let's re-separate archaeology from history
and linguistics' drift; ignore that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths
Please ignore the 'Götaland' map, Götaland does not include the southern part
of Sweden, but only a swath across Sweden plus Gotland. The two component parts
of Sweden, Götaland and Svealand (the latter around Stockholm) are
traditionally seen as equal partners; I think the Götar were subjugated by the
Svear (but this is a rather infected topic in Swedish prehistory, I understand);
Götaland is geographically not a viable area (no major traffic arteries define
it); it looks more like a refuge area.

But on the other hand, got- and jut- are most likely identical and the Øresund
is the 'Jute Stream' in Finnish, so the invaders from the North called Goths
would have come from Denmark and Southern Sweden both.

BTW the Kashubian Gdun´sk in
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gdansk
intrigued me (cf. Polish dun´ski "Danish"),
is that a regular development in Kashubian?


Torsten

>
> > The s-kut/s-gud does need to be looked atif cott is "shelter",
> > maybe the Goths are "protectors" , i.e. originally a martial
> > clan;
>
> > but skut- was also linked to "pirate, darkness" in Scot and
> > Scythia
>
> Not in my book; I see them as the oppressed original population of
> most Scandinavia who left for greener pastures south of the Baltic,
> but under leaders who were part of the Odinist invaders (which is
> why we know Gothic as a Germanic language). That explains the mixed
> cremation/inhumation, they are a characteristic of the respective
> groups, as also claimed by Snorri. BTW, if the Goths had a leading
> layer who kept to themselves, that would explain the later limpieza
> de sangre etc traditions and why their language left so little mark
> in the Romance countries they conquered.




> But if they were an oppressed group, they would need "protectors"
> more than "semen pourers"


As you may recall, the proposal that started this thread was that the Goth name
was derived from sub-Uralic, sub-IE ar-/ur- substrate *kot- "hut". But, speaking
of pouring or casting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotini
and
http://runeberg.org/display.pl?mode=facsimile&work=svetym&page=0340
'1. hytta = fsv.: smälthytta,
mining word, from MHG hütte,
also: hydda, tent;
in older modern Sw. further as sailor word,
in Serenius 1741 translated as ’roundhouse’,
from LG hütte (cf hytt),
which, like Da. hytte, OS huttía, Eng. hut and Fra. hutte,
comes from the OHG MHG word (= German hütte),
from German *huðjon-,
to the root in OE hýdan, Eng. hide etc;
IE root kudh or kut; see under hus.'

cf. German Hütte "smelting facility", Hüttenbau "iron smelting",
Pol. huta etc.

Only problem is Tacitus says the Cotini are Celts, which, if I applied the *kot-
= "hut" equation consistently, would mean the original inhabitants of
Scandinavia were Celts too, which is a bit drastic.


Torsten

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Rau Eugen <eugenrau@...> wrote:
>
> On 5/9/09, Berzovan Alexandru <prince_of_sarmizegetusa@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >  Hy to everybody,
> > I would like to ask you about the origin of a few rare Romanian
> > words, and if they might came from Daco-Moesian language. In the
> > Romanian etimological dictionaries I consulted so far, they have
> > "unknown origin", that is an etiquette often aplied to possible
> > Daco-Moesic substratum words...
> >
> > "Momaie" with alternative forms: , with the following meaning :
> > scarecrow, mound made of stons as marking sign, boogeyman, ghost.
> > "Muiama", with the meaning of ghost, or evil spirit, etc, that
> > form i found it highly used in SW Romania only and does not
> > appear in dictionaries. "Momarlan", that is the name of Romanian
> > pastoral population from Jiu Valley.
> >
> > These have a large variety of derivate words also, I hope can be
> > found some possible etimologies
> >
> > with respect,
> > Alexandru
> >
>>         Hello,
>  I don`t ask myself if daco/moesian or not.I propose you another
>  word maybe related
> - Momitze, that`s animal testicles wich in some Balkanic cultures
> are used as say an exotic dish.
> The common element of both words is
> - both are related to something wraped in a bag like scrotum for
> testicles and old mumies wraping or  dried skin.
> You know both are related to old,fixed in the past,not necessary
> active, but representing the past and ancestors..That is common for
> momaie,momitze.
> What`s your opinion about this ?
>                                         Your,  Eugen Rau

Dansk Etymologisk Ordbog
(I should use a German one but I don't have one)
'mumme v. (old) "mumble, disguise", see mumle [which has no explanation for the
"disguise" sense], cf formumme.
...
formumme, older Modern Danish id., borrowed through German vermummen "disguise"
from Low German; see mumme.'

cf. mummespil "hypocritical procedure"
http://tinyurl.com/obbbsj

'Mum' of 'keeping mum' "keeping silent" Skeat claims to be onomatopoiec; I'm not
so sure. He also has
mummer, a masker, buffoon. (F = Du)
O.French mommeur 'a mumme, one that goes a-mummimg; Cot. = O.Du. mommen, to go
a-mumming; cf mom-aensicht, a mommer's mask; Low G. mumme, a mask. The word is
imitative, from the sound mum or mom, usrd by nurses to frighten or amuse
children, at the same time pretending to cover their faces. Cf. G. mummel, a
bug-bear. Der. mummery, O.French mommerie.

mump, to mumble, sulk, beg. (Du.)
A mumper was a cat term for a beggar. = D. mompen, to mump, cheat (Sewel); cf.
mommelen, mompelen, to mumble (Hexham). This mump is merely an emphatic form of
mum, O.Du. mommen, to say mum, also to mask. Cf. Goth. bi-mampjan, to deride;
likewise of imitative origin.'

Skeat's 'imitative' I don't believe, but the distribution is interesting.


Torsten

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Rau Eugen <eugenrau@> wrote:
> >
> > On 5/9/09, Berzovan Alexandru <prince_of_sarmizegetusa@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >  Hy to everybody,
> > > I would like to ask you about the origin of a few rare Romanian
> > > words, and if they might came from Daco-Moesian language. In the
> > > Romanian etimological dictionaries I consulted so far, they have
> > > "unknown origin", that is an etiquette often aplied to possible
> > > Daco-Moesic substratum words...
> > >
> > > "Momaie" with alternative forms: , with the following meaning :
> > > scarecrow, mound made of stons as marking sign, boogeyman, ghost.
> > > "Muiama", with the meaning of ghost, or evil spirit, etc, that
> > > form i found it highly used in SW Romania only and does not
> > > appear in dictionaries. "Momarlan", that is the name of Romanian
> > > pastoral population from Jiu Valley.
> > >
> > > These have a large variety of derivate words also, I hope can be
> > > found some possible etimologies
> > >
> > > with respect,
> > > Alexandru
> > >
> >>         Hello,
> >  I don`t ask myself if daco/moesian or not.I propose you another
> >  word maybe related
> > - Momitze, that`s animal testicles wich in some Balkanic cultures
> > are used as say an exotic dish.
> > The common element of both words is
> > - both are related to something wraped in a bag like scrotum for
> > testicles and old mumies wraping or  dried skin.
> > You know both are related to old,fixed in the past,not necessary
> > active, but representing the past and ancestors..That is common for
> > momaie,momitze.
> > What`s your opinion about this ?
> >                                         Your,  Eugen Rau
>
> Dansk Etymologisk Ordbog
> (I should use a German one but I don't have one)
> 'mumme v. (old) "mumble, disguise", see mumle [which has no explanation for
the "disguise" sense], cf formumme.
> ...
> formumme, older Modern Danish id., borrowed through German vermummen
"disguise" from Low German; see mumme.'
>
> cf. mummespil "hypocritical procedure"
> http://tinyurl.com/obbbsj
>
> 'Mum' of 'keeping mum' "keeping silent" Skeat claims to be onomatopoiec; I'm
not so sure. He also has
> mummer, a masker, buffoon. (F = Du)
> O.French mommeur 'a mumme, one that goes a-mummimg; Cot. = O.Du. mommen, to go
a-mumming; cf mom-aensicht, a mommer's mask; Low G. mumme, a mask. The word is
imitative, from the sound mum or mom, usrd by nurses to frighten or amuse
children, at the same time pretending to cover their faces. Cf. G. mummel, a
bug-bear. Der. mummery, O.French mommerie.
>
> mump, to mumble, sulk, beg. (Du.)
> A mumper was a cat term for a beggar. = D. mompen, to mump, cheat (Sewel); cf.
mommelen, mompelen, to mumble (Hexham). This mump is merely an emphatic form of
mum, O.Du. mommen, to say mum, also to mask. Cf. Goth. bi-mampjan, to deride;
likewise of imitative origin.'
>
> Skeat's 'imitative' I don't believe, but the distribution is interesting.
>
>
> Torsten


It's the same word for sure....
Remain to find, if possible, its ultimate origin

Marius

tgpedersen schrieb:

> Dansk Etymologisk Ordbog
> (I should use a German one but I don't have one)
> 'mumme v. (old) "mumble, disguise", see mumle [which has no explanation
> for the "disguise" sense], cf formumme.

apud oles Duden:-)

mummen (veraltet für:) "einhüllen ( in eine Maske)<<: Das seit dem 16.
Jahrhundert bezeugte Verb an dessen Stelle heute die Bildungen einmummen
und vermummen gebräuchlich sind, ist von dem heute veralteten Substantiv
  >Mumme< >>Maske<<, verkleidete Gestalt<< abgeleitet. Dieses Substantiv
ist wohl ein Lallwort der Kindersprache, wie z.B. auch im roman.
Sprachbereich span., port. momo >> Fratze, Maske<<, beachte auch afrt.
momer >>sich vermummen<<, momon >>Vermummung<<.Ds Substantiv steckt auch
als Bestimmungswort in >Mummenschanz< und in >Mumpitz<.-Die seit dem 16.
Jh. bezeugten Zusammensetzung Mummenschanz >>Lustbarkeit vermummter
Gestalten, Maskenfest<< bezeichnete zunächst ein Glückspiel mit dem
Würfeln, das vorwiegend von vermummten Personen zur Fastnachtszeit
gespielt wurde, und ging dann erst auf das närrische Trieben vermummter
Personen über (Mein Komentar: typische Betrachtung der 17-18 Jh. der
germanischen Sprachforschung... aber es geht ja weiter->)(Zum Grundwort
s. den Artikel Schanze.)-Der seit der 2 Hälfte des 19 Jh.s.
gebräuchliche Ausdruck Mumpitz ugs. für >>Unsinn, Schwindel<< stammt aus
dem Berliner Börsenjargon. Wie älteres >Mummelputz< >>Vogelscheuche<<(17
Jh.) und hess. Mombotz >>Schreckgestalt<< bedeutet auch das Wort
  >Mumpitz< eigentlich >>[vermummte] Schreckgestalt, Schreckgespenst<<
(vgl.putzig). Im Börsenhjargon bezeichnete es zunächst ein
erschreckendes oder lügnerisches Gerede...

Nanu...., Torsten, mich interesiert was man über Himmel (eng. heaven,
mhd. himel, ahd. himil, got. himins, aisl. himinn) so erfahren kann da
in dem germanischen Raum, das Wort ist ja ganz merkwürdig und seiner
Ursprung liegt im Dunkeln ( möglicherweise von Wz. k^em-)
interesanterweise, wir finden ein änliches Wort mit derselben Bedeutung
in der Thrakisch-Phyrigisch Wortschatz ( scheinbar mit einem
çatam-Aspekt) und unglaublich, diesesmal mit centum-Züge in das Dakische!



Alex

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Alexandru Moeller <alxmoeller@...> wrote:
>
> tgpedersen schrieb:
>
> > Dansk Etymologisk Ordbog
> > (I should use a German one but I don't have one)
> > 'mumme v. (old) "mumble, disguise", see mumle [which has no
> > explanation for the "disguise" sense], cf formumme.
>
> apud oles Duden:-)
>
> mummen (veraltet für:) "einhüllen ( in eine Maske)<<: Das seit dem
> 16. Jahrhundert bezeugte Verb an dessen Stelle heute die Bildungen
> einmummen und vermummen gebräuchlich sind, ist von dem heute
> veralteten Substantiv >Mumme< >>Maske<<, verkleidete Gestalt<<
> abgeleitet. Dieses Substantiv ist wohl ein Lallwort der
> Kindersprache, wie z.B. auch im roman. Sprachbereich span., port.
> momo >> Fratze, Maske<<, beachte auch afrt. momer >>sich
> vermummen<<, momon >>Vermummung<<.Ds Substantiv steckt auch als
> Bestimmungswort in >Mummenschanz< und in >Mumpitz<.-Die seit dem
> 16. Jh. bezeugten Zusammensetzung Mummenschanz >>Lustbarkeit
> vermummter Gestalten, Maskenfest<< bezeichnete zunächst ein
> Glückspiel mit dem Würfeln, das vorwiegend von vermummten Personen
> zur Fastnachtszeit gespielt wurde, und ging dann erst auf das
> närrische Trieben vermummter Personen über (Mein Komentar: typische
> Betrachtung der 17-18 Jh. der germanischen Sprachforschung... aber
> es geht ja weiter->)(Zum Grundwort s. den Artikel Schanze.)-Der
> seit der 2 Hälfte des 19 Jh.s. gebräuchliche Ausdruck Mumpitz ugs.
> für >>Unsinn, Schwindel<< stammt aus dem Berliner Börsenjargon. Wie
> älteres >Mummelputz< >>Vogelscheuche<<(17 Jh.) und hess. Mombotz
> >>Schreckgestalt<< bedeutet auch das Wort >Mumpitz< eigentlich
> >>[vermummte] Schreckgestalt, Schreckgespenst<< (vgl.putzig). Im
> Börsenhjargon bezeichnete es zunächst ein erschreckendes oder
> lügnerisches Gerede...

I had a suspicion Otto Höfler's 'Kultische Geheimbünde der Germanen' would
have plenty of hits on 'mumm', and it did.

> Nanu...., Torsten, mich interesiert was man über Himmel (eng.
> heaven, mhd. himel, ahd. himil, got. himins, aisl. himinn) so
> erfahren kann da in dem germanischen Raum,

The interesting part is the suffix alternation -l/-n, similar to the one in
little/liten and mickle/mycken. Besides, I think everything I've been arguing
for shows there was no Germanic 'raum' as late as ca. 50 BCE, the present
situation is due to a colonization and lingua franca expansion (ie. of
proto-Germanic) later that that date.

> das Wort ist ja ganz
> merkwürdig und seiner Ursprung liegt im Dunkeln ( möglicherweise
> von Wz. k^em-) interesanterweise, wir finden ein änliches Wort mit
> derselben Bedeutung in der Thrakisch-Phyrigisch Wortschatz (
> scheinbar mit einem çatam-Aspekt) und unglaublich, diesesmal mit
> centum-Züge in das Dakische!

Which word is that?


Torsten

tgpedersen schrieb:

>  > das Wort ist ja ganz
>  > merkwürdig und seiner Ursprung liegt im Dunkeln ( möglicherweise
>  > von Wz. k^em-) interesanterweise, wir finden ein änliches Wort mit
>  > derselben Bedeutung in der Thrakisch-Phyrigisch Wortschatz (
>  > scheinbar mit einem çatam-Aspekt) und unglaublich, diesesmal mit
>  > centum-Züge in das Dakische!
>
> Which word is that?
>
> Torsten


in Thracian attested as "Semele", and from many shcolars tried to be
brought in connection with the meaning "earth" due Slavic "zemlja".
Hehn, Fick, Kretschmer, tried to get the connection with the earth here
and for sure there a lot more interpretations.
Thomascheck thinks about at this word as not beeing Thracian at all, but
maybe Phrygian since Hesychod mentions "semelen barbaron andrapodon,
Fruges"; yet Thomascheck thinks it means "wolke", cloud since the word
is mentioned often in context of rain..

The thracian deity Semele (wroten with sigma, not with zeta) is
mentioned in many cases together with an another one called Toune,
Donner, Thunder(it is not the case now and here to discusse the whole
story of Semele, neither to bring the whole references about)
  From this point it is not hard to make the connection with the
Dacian/Getian diety which was called Gebeleizis/Gemeleiz and about we
know it was the good of the sky.
Apparently this Semele/Ge[m/b]ele(izis)is one and the same deity
and the thracian "s" appears to be just a fricative g^/c^ which has been
represented by the Greeks trough sigma. I don't want to discusse now the
confusions between k/g and m/b in that part of the world since it has
been done many times with examples from antiquity and with recent
examples from Albanian and Romanian which shows such phonetic features.
I just wanted to point to the meaning and to the phonetic aspect.
If these are correct interpreted, then there appears to be connection
between the germanic Himmel and thracian-Dacian Gemele-/Semele-
The "l" you spek about .. should be a kind of diminutival suffix?

Alex

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Alexandru Moeller <alxmoeller@...>
> between the germanic Himmel and thracian-Dacian Gemele-/Semele-
> The "l" you spek about .. should be a kind of diminutival suffix?
>
> Alex
>



  I. The single root that 'could match' for Semele is k^em- 'hornless'

  Semele - is in this case 'The Young Deer / The Young Woman / The Virgin'  (
Greek kem'as 'young deer' English hind etc...)

  This could be validated also by the following myth (even is not necessary to
justify the semantism)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semele
" Gaius Julius Hyginus, or a later author whose work has been attributed to
Hyginus,[11] said Zeus created mead out of Zagreus's heart, which he gave to
Semele to drink, and that this was how she became pregnant.[12] "


  II. So Semele was a kind of Arthemis :
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artemis
     "[Arthemis] was the Hellenic goddess of forests and hills, child birth,
VIRGINITY, fertility, the hunt, and often was depicted as a huntress carrying a
bow and arrows.[2]. THE DEER and the cypress were sacred to her"


   III. On the other part, I don't see how this can be further link with Himmel
semantism...or with Zamolxis/Gebeleizis' one.


Marius

alexandru_mg3 schrieb:

>
> II. So Semele was a kind of Arthemis :
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artemis <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artemis>
> "[Arthemis] was the Hellenic goddess of forests and hills, child birth,
> VIRGINITY, fertility, the hunt, and often was depicted as a huntress
> carrying a bow and arrows.[2]. THE DEER and the cypress were sacred to her"
>
> III. On the other part, I don't see how this can be further link with
> Himmel semantism...or with Zamolxis/Gebeleizis' one.
>
> Marius


try to find out what about Artemis before she was considered to be the
godess of the huntress.. so far I remember, she was a deity of the
storm; secondly, Zamolxis was not one and the same with Gebleizis, even
in wiki you can find some kind of informations. I see also that the
paralelism zemele/gebele has been already mentioned by Kretschmer
too.(http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gebeleizis)
Unfortunately the english version of wiki here is too short and does not
mention this aspect.



Alex

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Alexandru Moeller <alxmoeller@...> wrote:


> secondly, Zamolxis was not one and the same with Gebleizis, even
> in wiki you can find some kind of informations. I see also that the
> paralelism zemele/gebele has been already mentioned by Kretschmer
> too.(http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gebeleizis)
> Unfortunately the english version of wiki here is too short and does not
> mention this aspect.
> Alex

   I don't have any proud to be right or wrong here...

   All I did is that I took the original quotation and only next the
interpreters:

The SINGLE SOURCE here is Herodotus:

"But before he came to the Ister, he first subdued the Getae, who
  pretend to be immortal. The Thracians of Salmydessus and of the
  country above the towns of Appolonia and Mesambria, who are called
  Cyrmaianae and Nipsaei, surrendered themselves unresisting to
Darius;
  but the Getae, who are the bravest and most law-abiding of all
  Thracians, resisted with obstinacy, and were enslaved forthwith.

  94. As to their claim to be immortal, this is how they show it:
they
  believe that they do not die, but that he who perishes goes

   ----------------------------------------------------------
   TO THE GOD SALMOXIS OR GEBELEXIS, AS SOME OF THEM CALL HIM.
   ----------------------------------------------------------

Once in every five years they choose by lot one of their people and send him as
a messenger to Salmoxis, charged to tell of their needs; and this is their
manner of sending: Three lances are held by men thereto appointed; others seize
the messenger to Salmoxis by his hands and feet, and swing and hurl him aloft on
to the spear-point. If he be killed by the cast, they believe that the gods
regard them with favour; but if he be not killed, they blame the messenger
himself, deeming him a bad man, and send another messenger in place of him whom
they blame. It is while the man yet lives that they charge him with the message.
"

S Herodotus clearly tell us abut one and the same GOD having 2 different names

(in my opinion is also the same name with only dialectic differences)


Marius

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Alexandru Moeller <alxmoeller@...> wrote:
> try to find out what about Artemis before she was considered to be the
> godess of the huntress.. so far I remember, she was a deity of the
> storm;
> Alex


Homer Iliad XXI, 470

=========================
potnia thêrôn, Artemis
=========================

"the queen of the wild beasts, Artemis of the wild wood"

Greek:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0133:book=21\
:card=468

------------------------------------------------
hôs ara phônêsas palin etrapet': aideto gar rha
patrokasignêtoio migêmenai en palamêisi.
470
ton de kasignêtê mala neikese potnia thêrôn
Artemis agroterê, kai oneideion phato muthon:
-----------------------------------------------



English:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134;que\
ry=card%3D%23360;layout=;loc=21.434
----------------------------------------------------------------
So saying he turned him back,
for he had shame to deal in blows with his father's brother.
[470]
But his sister railed at him hotly, even the queen of the wild beasts, Artemis
of the wild wood, and spake a word of reviling
----------------------------------------------------------------


so no storm here....and before Homer ....'was nobody'.....


Marius

alexandru_mg3 schrieb:
>
>
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:cybalist%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Alexandru Moeller <alxmoeller@...> wrote:
>  > try to find out what about Artemis before she was considered to be the
>  > godess of the huntress.. so far I remember, she was a deity of the
>  > storm;
>  > Alex
>
> Homer Iliad XXI, 470
>
> =========================
> potnia th�r�n, Artemis
> =========================
>
> "the queen of the wild beasts, Artemis of the wild wood"

actually, this is what everyone normally should know.

---------------------------------------------
>
> so no storm here....and before Homer ....'was nobody'.....
>
> Marius

See pls the following text from Tomaschek "Die Alten Thraker II, pg 176
when discussing the name of Zerunthia:

"... Artemis-Hekate war, ehe sie von den Dichtern zur Jägerin
umgestaltet wurde, eine Sturmgöttin, hinter der eine Koppel bellender
Hunde, d.i. die Schaar der dahingerafften Seelen einherzog; der
Volksglaube erkennt in des Hundes Gebell den Eintritt oder Austritt
einer Seele; zur Wahrung des Lebens wurden daher der Götting Hunde
geopfert, wie der Genetyllis-Eileithyia und der Hekate "fusforos"..."


I try to translate it in english as such:

"... before the poets remodeled her into a hunter, Artemis-Hekate was a
deity of storm havingand behind her a pride of barking dogs which caught
the souls of the deads; the popular belief recognises in the barking of
the dog the entrance or the exit of a soul; for the keeping the life,
people sacrificed dogs to the godess , the same for
Genetyllis-Eileithyia and for the Hekater "fusforos"


I am sorry I don't have the time to go deeper into this, I did not
intended to make a big deal of this story with this, I just got
contraried by the Semele-Gebele-Himel and that is all.  Unfortunately,
right now I don't have the neccessary time to develop more this matter
thus I have to step out by now:-)

Alex

alexandru_mg3 schrieb:
>
>
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:cybalist%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Alexandru Moeller <alxmoeller@...> wrote:
>
>  > secondly, Zamolxis was not one and the same with Gebleizis, even
>  > in wiki you can find some kind of informations. I see also that the
>  > paralelism zemele/gebele has been already mentioned by Kretschmer
>  > too.(http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gebeleizis
> <http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gebeleizis>)
>  > Unfortunately the english version of wiki here is too short and does not
>  > mention this aspect.
>  > Alex
>
> I don't have any proud to be right or wrong here...
>
> All I did is that I took the original quotation and only next the
> interpreters:
>
> The SINGLE SOURCE here is Herodotus:

yes, IV. 94
>
> 94. As to their claim to be immortal, this is how they show it:
> they
> believe that they do not die, but that he who perishes goes
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> TO THE GOD SALMOXIS OR GEBELEXIS, AS SOME OF THEM CALL HIM.
> ----------------------------------------------------------

in the 3 manuscripts the name is not really good to read,
Thomaschek measn it is wroten ///beleizin and maybe there has been
Sebel-eizin or Zibeleizin where Sibel/Zibel should be "thunderbolt"


>
>
> S Herodotus clearly tell us abut one and the same GOD having 2 different
> names
>
> (in my opinion is also the same name with only dialectic differences)
>
>
> Marius


I have pretty doubghts to consider dialectal differences such big
differences : Zalmoxis-?ebeleizis... which is the reason you think these
are one and the same name? To me it appears to be two difterent name,
too much of vocalic differences here, letting by side the rest..


Alex

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Alexandru Moeller <alxmoeller@...> wrote:
> I have pretty doubghts to consider dialectal differences such big
> differences : Zalmoxis-?ebeleizis... which is the reason you think these
> are one and the same name? To me it appears to be two difterent name,
> too much of vocalic differences here, letting by side the rest..
>
>
> Alex


   I have written in the past too:

   I started from Zamolxis and Gebelezis and I splitted in:
     a)  a.1) Zamo-  a.2) Gebe-
     b)  b.1) -lxis  b.2) -le(i)zis

    From here the similarities started to appear in much an obvious way


   For a) DZem- seems to be the ancien fonetic Common Form

    and I have applied
       e/accented > ya or ye  (Diegis, Dielleina, Skyare)
       dzy > g^y  or dzy
       m > mB > m or b  (Museous~Buzau, Tibisia~Timis)

    Where :
     a.1) DZem- > [ e/accented > ya] > *DZyam (attested Zam-)

     a.2) DZem- > [ e/accented > ye] > DZjemb > G^emb- (attested Geb- )

   This first the root seems to be related to
        PIE dHg^Hem- 'earth' > DZem-


   For b) b.1) -lxis  b.2) -le(i)zis *ledz-sk-is seems to be the common form

   a.1) *-ledz-sk-is > -ldzksis > -lxis

   a.1) *le(i)dz-sk-is > -le(i)dzis > -le(i)dzis

   This second root seems to be related to
        PIE leig^- 'to bind, to tie' > *leg^H-sk-i-s


So Probably the real pronunciations was closer too:

     DZyamw& -ldzksis
     DZyemBwe-ledzksis ~ G^ebwe-ledzksis


   ===> 'The Tied-one in the earth' ' "The Bind-one in the earth'

   In Romanian the meaning would be 'Cel legat in t,&r^an&'

Marius

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "alexandru_mg3" <alexandru_mg3@...> wrote:
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Alexandru Moeller <alxmoeller@> wrote:
> > I have pretty doubghts to consider dialectal differences such big
> > differences : Zalmoxis-?ebeleizis... which is the reason you think these
> > are one and the same name? To me it appears to be two difterent name,
> > too much of vocalic differences here, letting by side the rest..
> >
> >
> > Alex
>
>
>   I have written in the past too:
>
>   I started from Zamolxis and Gebelezis and I splitted in:
>     a)  a.1) Zamo-  a.2) Gebe-
>     b)  b.1) -lxis  b.2) -le(i)zis
>
>    From here the similarities started to appear in much an obvious way
>
>
>   For a) DZem- seems to be the ancien fonetic Common Form
>
>    and I have applied
>       e/accented > ya or ye  (Diegis, Dielleina, Skyare)
>       dzy > g^y  or dzy
>       m > mB > m or b  (Museous~Buzau, Tibisia~Timis)
>
>    Where :
>     a.1) DZem- > [ e/accented > ya] > *DZyam (attested Zam-)
>
>     a.2) DZem- > [ e/accented > ye] > DZjemb > G^emb- (attested Geb- )
>
>   This first the root seems to be related to
>        PIE dHg^Hem- 'earth' > DZem-
>
>
>   For b) b.1) -lxis  b.2) -le(i)zis *ledz-sk-is seems to be the common form
>
>   a.1) *-ledz-sk-is > -ldzksis > -lxis
>
>   a.1) *le(i)dz-sk-is > -le(i)dzis > -le(i)dzis
>
>   This second root seems to be related to
>        PIE leig^- 'to bind, to tie' > *leg^H-sk-i-s
>
>
> So Probably the real pronunciations was closer too:
>     DZyamw& -ldzksis
>     DZyemBwe-ledzksis ~ G^ebwe-ledzksis
>   ===> 'The Tied-one in the earth' ' "The Bind-one in the earth'
>   In Romanian the meaning would be 'Cel legat in t,&r^an&'
> Marius

Sorry pleased read leg^-sk-i-s


From another perspective (doesn't matter the etymology)

If the God was one and the same

----------------------------------------------------------
TO THE GOD SALMOXIS OR GEBELEXIS, AS SOME OF THEM CALL HIM.
----------------------------------------------------------

why the original ancient name to be different at some Getic tribes?


Marius

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Alexandru Moeller <alxmoeller@...> wrote:

> I try to translate it in english as such:
>
> "... before the poets remodeled her into a hunter, Artemis-Hekate was a
> deity of storm havingand behind her a pride of barking dogs which caught
> the souls of the deads; the popular belief recognises in the barking of
> the dog the entrance or the exit of a soul; for the keeping the life,
> people sacrificed dogs to the godess , the same for
> Genetyllis-Eileithyia and for the Hekater "fusforos"
>
>
> I am sorry I don't have the time to go deeper into this, I did not
> intended to make a big deal of this story with this, I just got
> contraried by the Semele-Gebele-Himel and that is all.  Unfortunately,
> right now I don't have the neccessary time to develop more this matter
> thus I have to step out by now:-)
>
> Alex


But what is the Ancient Greek Text that he took as reference?

Marius