Bigfoot backers treated much like flying
                                 saucer believers at Hillsboro
                                 event

                                 Published: June 1, 2002

                                 By STEVE FOX
                                 Of the News-Register

                                 HILLSBORO - Ray Crowe is still
                                 waiting for his big moment.

                                 The Hillsboro resident, director
                                 of the International Bigfoot Society, attracted
                                 a
                                 few hundred fellow bigfoot
                                 believers to the Washington County
                                 Fairgrounds in
                                 early May.

                                 The 10th annual conference,
                                 including speakers, films, artifacts and
                                 memorabilia, was tucked away in a
                                 small, dark building in the middle of the
                                 grounds. A dog show drew bigger
                                 crowds and the gem sale had top billing on the
                                 street signs.

                                 But that didn't deter bigfoot
                                 enthusiasts - witnesses and wannabe witnesses
                                 alike.

                                 Crowe is leader of the pack and an
                                 admitted wanna-be.

                                 He was a self-described naturalist
                                 when he was invited on a bigfoot seeking
                                 adventure in 1991. He saw tracks
                                 and collected 8 1/2-inch red hairs - a major
                                 coup for his first time out.

                                 But he wasn't sold on bigfoot from
                                 the start. He said it often takes people a
                                 while to overcome the grocery
                                 store tabloids that make bigfoot out to a be a
                                 farce.

                                 "It gives the ordinary person the
                                 impression we're all nuts," Crowe said. "There's
                                 nothing we can do. The only thing
                                 we could do is come up with a body."

                                 That isn't so easy.

                                 Finding a body or capturing a
                                 bigfoot has proved difficult. Some at the
                                 conference were even so bold to
                                 say the government doesn't want to see it
                                 happen.

                                 Why would the government care? "It
                                 would put the spotted owl issue to shame,"
                                 Crowe said.

                                 Displays during the two-day
                                 conference described bigfoot as a creature up to
8
                                 feet in height and 400 pounds in
                                 weight.

                                 Yet, he's elusive. That's why the
                                 International Bigfoot Society has field
                                 researchers.

                                 Roland A. Wolfe of Idaho, who
                                 wears an official field researcher badge from
the
                                 Bigfoot Research Organization,
                                 said he concentrates his searches in Idaho,
                                 Eastern Washington and Eastern
                                 Oregon. He said the Blue Mountains are a hot
                                 area

                                 Looking at stacks of books lined
                                 up on a table during the conference, he
                                 recommended one: "North America's
                                 Great Ape: The Sasquatch," by John A.
                                 Bindernagel. Wolfe called it the
                                 bible of bigfoot books.

                                 As North Bend's Gordon
                                 Strasenburgh drew the attention of about 150 to
the
                                 famed Patterson/Gmilin film from
                                 1967, a few stragglers examined castings and
                                 other displays. The most
                                 definitive film known shows a hair-covered beast
                                 ambling across a dry, rocky river
                                 bed near Bluff Creek, Calif.

                                 While it hasn't been officially
                                 disproved, most are still skeptical.

                                 It's similar to the 1950 flying
                                 saucer photos in Yamhill County. They draw some
                                 serious backers, but most brush it
                                 off.

                                 Several conference attendees used
                                 the opportunity to share stories of sightings.
                                 Others sought those lucky enough
                                 to have had sightings.

                                 Crowe has not had a sighting. He's
                                 investigated several, however.

                                 He remembered one in the early
                                 1990s, soon after starting the International
                                 Bigfoot Society, from south of
                                 Forest Grove.

                                 "Almost anywhere you go you'll
                                 find reports," Crowe said. "Anywhere you don't
                                 find reports, it's because there's
                                 no one there to report them."

                                 The bonus, according to Crowe, is
                                 that bigfoot research is done outdoors. And,
                                 not just outdoors, but mostly in
                                 remote Northwest woodlands.

                                 Even if he doesn't spot bigfoot,
                                 find tracks or discover long red hair samples,
he
                                 can live by the common theme of
                                 all who seek the mysterious beast: Any day
                                 searching for bigfoot is better
                                 than a day at work.

                                 The News-Register of Jan. 18,
                                 1978, included a brief story on a reported
bigfoot
                                 sighting near Newberg. Crowe said
                                 he doesn't know of any official bigfoot field
                                 researcher in Yamhill County,
                                 though.

                                 The Molalla River area has been a
                                 recent hotbed for sightings in Oregon, along
                                 with sections of the Columbia
                                 River Gorge in Multnomah County and
                                 less-populated parts of Clackamas
                                 County.

                                 Middle school science teacher Thom
                                 Powell of Portland took his turn at the
                                 podium during the international
                                 conference. He lightened the mood, but got his
                                 point across: He's a believer.

                                 He also wants some changes to the
                                 bigfoot culture, including no longer
                                 capitalizing the word. He said
                                 that's like capitalizing the word deer.

                                 Even better, according to Powell,
                                 would be using the terms sasquatch or wildmen.

                                 While the conference attracted its
                                 share of oddballs, there was a serious tone to
                                 many, even if Harry and the
                                 Hendersons posters were included in the
displays.

                                
http://www.newsregister.com/news/story.cfm?story_no=151040

If there is a question that science couldnt answer then wouldnt
science in general be flawed? I think your grouping arguments by
cliche....try looking at all arguments point by point and see then
how much most people really agree with each other......And the
reasons we dont are because of experience or lack of, or I guess
maybe maturity.......But if there is a question science cant answer
doesnt that put science then in the realm of religion?....

--- In debunkingdebunkers@y..., "tedhead3" <tedhead3@e...> wrote:
> If there is a question that science couldnt answer then wouldnt
> science in general be flawed? I think your grouping arguments by
> cliche....try looking at all arguments point by point and see then
> how much most people really agree with each other......And the
> reasons we dont are because of experience or lack of, or I guess
> maybe maturity.......But if there is a question science cant answer
> doesnt that put science then in the realm of religion?....

I'm not sure what you're asking. Science can't deal with issues that
don't lend themselves to empirical study. For example, is there a
god? What is love? What's a good philosophy of life?

What happens with many paranormal topics is that the researchers want
to put them in the domain of science, but are not willing to employ
the scientific method to study them. In particular, personal
experience has nothing to do with science, except perhaps to move
research in a certain direction.

I don't think our disagreements are caused only by differing
experience or maturity. They are also caused by different
requirements to accept or reject ideas.

~~ Paul

Okay, I asked this same question in Oregon Hauntings, but I will post it here
as well. These guys with the BFRO for the most part believe in the Patterson/
Gimlim film being actual footage of a bigfoot. Yet these same guys go
hunting for him and collect long reddish hairs along side the places they get
footprint casts. Now when I watched the Patterson film, it looked to me that
the animal/creature/man in a suit was black or very dark brown in coat...not
reddish. Do you feel this is further evidence of the film being a hoax? Or is it
just a different color bigfoot? I lean more on the hoax side of it and wonder
why the BFRO guys all stand by it when they collect evidence to the contrary.

>>Okay, I asked this same question in Oregon Hauntings, but I will post it
here as well. These guys with the BFRO for the most part believe in the
Patterson/Gimlim film being actual footage of a bigfoot. Yet these same guys
go hunting for him and collect long reddish hairs along side the places they
get footprint casts. Now when I watched the Patterson film, it looked to me
that the animal/creature/man in a suit was black or very dark brown in
coat...not reddish. Do you feel this is further evidence of the film being a
hoax? Or is it just a different color bigfoot? I lean more on the hoax side
of it and wonder why the BFRO guys all stand by it when they collect
evidence to the contrary.<<

If I remember correctly, they guy who made the suits for the Planet of the
Apes movies, being a great prankster, made that suit in the Patterson film.
He's dead, but would never answer the question.

Seems quite a bit more likely than some cryptozoological explanation.

Cordially,
Rush

"Did you really think we want those laws observed?" said Dr. Ferris.  "We
WANT them to be broken.  You'd better get it straight that it's not a bunch
of boy scouts you're up against...  We're after power and we mean it...
There's no way to rule innocent men.  The only power any government has is
the power to crack down on criminals.  Well, when there aren't enough
criminals one MAKES them.  One declares so many things to be a crime that it
becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws.  Who wants a
nation of law-abiding citizens?  What's there in that for anyone?  But just
pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced or
objectively interpreted--and you create a nation of law-breakers--and then
you cash in on guilt.  Now that's the system Mr. Reardon, that's the game,
and once you understand it, you'll be much easier to deal with." -Ayn Rand,
Atlas Shrugged

-I still don't know what to think of the Gimlin footage. Very well could be a
hoax, it all seems so convenient, on
the other hand, it was a hell of a lot of work to lug all that equipment around
back then. We're not talking about
a relatively lightweight video camera, but heavy awkard film equipment. And the
suit as well. Plus the risk of
being shot at by someone. Add to that all the personal intrigue of who said
what, their relationship, etc. Who
knows?

But I think it's just a variation. You bring up a good point. The white bigfoots
intrigue me; and there's a lot of
paranormal stuff going on with white or light colored BFs, or out of place
bipeds. So is it a mundane physical
difference, or something more? If it's something more, then why are these BF
researchers, like the BFRO, so
against hearing anything about the high strangeness cases of BF, like UFOs, etc?

Come on over to "out of place bipeds" and ask your question! :)

Good question.

~ ruby



-- In debunkingdebunkers@y..., zen_witch <no_reply@y...> wrote:
> Okay, I asked this same question in Oregon Hauntings, but I will post it here
> as well. These guys with the BFRO for the most part believe in the Patterson/
> Gimlim film being actual footage of a bigfoot. Yet these same guys go
> hunting for him and collect long reddish hairs along side the places they get
> footprint casts. Now when I watched the Patterson film, it looked to me that
> the animal/creature/man in a suit was black or very dark brown in coat...not
> reddish. Do you feel this is further evidence of the film being a hoax? Or is
it
> just a different color bigfoot? I lean more on the hoax side of it and wonder
> why the BFRO guys all stand by it when they collect evidence to the contrary.

Dear members,

I will be shutting down this Yahoo group "Debunking debunkers" soon. If you
would like to continue to rant and
debate and make fun of CSICOP (or defend them) you can join "Debunking Debunkers
Two" on Delphi.

http://forums.delphiforums.com/ddtwo/start

Thank you for joining Debunking debunkers and for all your input. For a small
forum it got really busy in here!
But I have too many "cyber commitments" as well as my "real" life getting a lot
busier. So I need to do some
culling.

Thanks again, and hope to see you over on the Debunking Debunkers Two forum.

~ ruby

--- In debunkingdebunkers@y..., rubyhoney97402 <no_reply@y...> wrote:

> Thank you for joining Debunking debunkers and for all your input.
For a small forum it got really busy in here!
> But I have too many "cyber commitments" as well as my "real" life
getting a lot busier. So I need to do some
> culling.

There goes that real life again, intruding on make-believe life. Come
on over to DD Two, everyone. Lots of shouting and ranting going on!

~~ Paul

LOL, thanks Paul!

~ ruby

--- In debunkingdebunkers@y..., "thevirtualgreek" <yahoo@w...> wrote:
> --- In debunkingdebunkers@y..., rubyhoney97402 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
>
> > Thank you for joining Debunking debunkers and for all your input.
> For a small forum it got really busy in here!
> > But I have too many "cyber commitments" as well as my "real" life
> getting a lot busier. So I need to do some
> > culling.
>
> There goes that real life again, intruding on make-believe life. Come
> on over to DD Two, everyone. Lots of shouting and ranting going on!
>
> ~~ Paul

"Dear members, I will be shutting down this Yahoo group "Debunking
debunkers" soon."

Instead of just shutting it down, why not let someone else be its
owner?  I'd love to have it, myself...it would go well with the
"Strange Science" group that I'm a moderator of.  I should also say
that I've had experience with Delphi, and the Delphi Forums have a
real problem with access speed.  Maybe it's my location, and the path
that the data takes, from here, but I've found them to be SLOW.

Okay, it's yours!

Good luck.

~ ruby

--- In debunkingdebunkers@y..., "pack_rat2" <pack_rat2@y...> wrote:
> "Dear members, I will be shutting down this Yahoo group "Debunking
> debunkers" soon."
>
> Instead of just shutting it down, why not let someone else be its
> owner?  I'd love to have it, myself...it would go well with the
> "Strange Science" group that I'm a moderator of.  I should also say
> that I've had experience with Delphi, and the Delphi Forums have a
> real problem with access speed.  Maybe it's my location, and the path
> that the data takes, from here, but I've found them to be SLOW.

Hey, packrat, where are you? Are you still interested in taking over this club?
Let us know! Or anyone else.

~ ruby

I will, send me the info!

Cordially,
Rush

"Did you really think we want those laws observed?" said Dr. Ferris.  "We
WANT them to be broken.  You'd better get it straight that it's not a bunch
of boy scouts you're up against...  We're after power and we mean it...
There's no way to rule innocent men.  The only power any government has is
the power to crack down on criminals.  Well, when there aren't enough
criminals one MAKES them.  One declares so many things to be a crime that it
becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws.  Who wants a
nation of law-abiding citizens?  What's there in that for anyone?  But just
pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced or
objectively interpreted--and you create a nation of law-breakers--and then
you cash in on guilt.  Now that's the system Mr. Reardon, that's the game,
and once you understand it, you'll be much easier to deal with." -Ayn Rand,
Atlas Shrugged

----- Original Message -----
From: "rubyhoney97402" <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
To: <debunkingdebunkers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 3:20 PM
Subject: [Debunking Debunkers] New moderator: possible


> Hey, packrat, where are you? Are you still interested in taking over this
club? Let us know! Or anyone else.
>
> ~ ruby
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> debunkingdebunkers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

"Hey, packrat, where are you? Are you still interested in taking over
this club? Let us know! Or anyone else."

I'm here.  The college where I use the computers has been on summer
break, so I wasn't able to do much posting...but now they've started
their summer session, so I can do more.  At any rate, I do check all
of the clubs I'm a moderator in, every day, no matter what.  I think
the first thing I should do here, now, is start sending out
invitations to increase the membership.  By the way, if you don't want
to stay in the group, you can delete yourself.  I don't especially
like deleting people, ever, unless they're spammers (then, I enjoy
it!:):):)).  But there's no reason why you shouldn't stay...

--- In debunkingdebunkers@y..., "pack_rat2" <pack_rat2@y...> wrote:
> "Hey, packrat, where are you? Are you still interested in taking over
> this club? Let us know! Or anyone else."
>
> I'm here.  The college where I use the computers has been on summer
> break, so I wasn't able to do much posting...but now they've started
> their summer session, so I can do more.  At any rate, I do check all
> of the clubs I'm a moderator in, every day, no matter what.  I think
> the first thing I should do here, now, is start sending out
> invitations to increase the membership.  By the way, if you don't want
> to stay in the group, you can delete yourself.  I don't especially
> like deleting people, ever, unless they're spammers (then, I enjoy
> it!:):):)).  But there's no reason why you shouldn't stay...

You are the new ruler!!!!

(applause.....) Good luck, and thanks!

~ ruby

Not really a post debunking anything, just fishing for some help.

     I belong to a group called the Anla-shok, or Rangers, and we're
looking for help. We are one-part watchdog group, and one-part human
rights group. We strive to protect life and freedom, and hope we can
make a difference in a world that is growing all too dark.

     This organization is based on one from a TV show, so if you
recognize the name, you probably know what we stand for.

     For now, we're gathering information and trying to gain members.
I'm just a low-level functionary at this point, and don't have all
the details. For more info, please contact ranger5000@...
Though I'll warn you, he has this annoying habit of being cryptic.

     (Sorry about the semi-spam. First assignment over-zealousness I
guess. BTW... Hey Ruby, and why is this forum closing again?)

That's ranger5000 at hotmail.

>>I belong to a group called the Anla-shok, or Rangers, and we're looking
for help. We are one-part watchdog group, and one-part human rights group.
We strive to protect life and freedom, and hope we can make a difference in
a world that is growing all too dark.<<

     Why do I think your definition of "freedom" includes slavery for some of
the "free" people?

Cordially,
Rush

"Did you really think we want those laws observed?" said Dr. Ferris.  "We
WANT them to be broken.  You'd better get it straight that it's not a bunch
of boy scouts you're up against...  We're after power and we mean it...
There's no way to rule innocent men.  The only power any government has is
the power to crack down on criminals.  Well, when there aren't enough
criminals one MAKES them.  One declares so many things to be a crime that it
becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws.  Who wants a
nation of law-abiding citizens?  What's there in that for anyone?  But just
pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced or
objectively interpreted--and you create a nation of law-breakers--and then
you cash in on guilt.  Now that's the system Mr. Reardon, that's the game,
and once you understand it, you'll be much easier to deal with." -Ayn Rand,
Atlas Shrugged

--- In debunkingdebunkers@y..., savyono <no_reply@y...> wrote:
>     Not really a post debunking anything, just fishing for some help.
>
>     I belong to a group called the Anla-shok, or Rangers, and we're
> looking for help. We are one-part watchdog group, and one-part human
> rights group. We strive to protect life and freedom, and hope we can
> make a difference in a world that is growing all too dark.
>
>     This organization is based on one from a TV show, so if you
> recognize the name, you probably know what we stand for.
>
>     For now, we're gathering information and trying to gain members.
> I'm just a low-level functionary at this point, and don't have all
> the details. For more info, please contact ranger5000@h...
> Though I'll warn you, he has this annoying habit of being cryptic.
>
>     (Sorry about the semi-spam. First assignment over-zealousness I
> guess. BTW... Hey Ruby, and why is this forum closing again?)

Hey Savy, where you been? I think this forum is still going, packrat is the new
moderator. I have nothing to do
with the club anymore. I don't think. LOL.

~ ruby

"Not really a post debunking anything, just fishing for some help."

Do you have a website?  What's the URL?  If one fishes, one must
employ bait!

packrat, anyone? Hello? LOL, I leave one forum and turn it over, and then this
happens:

I joined a yahoo forum called "scientifc solutions to the mothman" it sounded
right up my alley. Only 2 members.
Oh well I figure, give it a chance. No posts since early June.

Few days ago I notice I'm a moderator. I emailed the founder, maybe it's a Yahoo
glitch, or maybe it's
something he did without realizing it. But I wanted him to know because I could
go in there and change things
etc. so he should know.

I get an email from him tonight telling me he made me moderator, for some reason
thinking I'd do a godd job (?)
he got bored with it and removed himself as moderator. He's off writing a novel.

Maybe I'll play around with it, I don't know. Very fortean, eh? I love it.

Take a look if you like:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scientificsolutiontothemothman/

~ ruby

"No posts since early June."

I don't think that's unusual...I used to belong to some clubs, which
had dozens of members, that would experience a post, maybe, once every
6 mo. to a year.  I've noticed that a group usually has to reach 500
members or so before it really gets active.  Basically, only a small
percentage of a group's members ever post anything, and most of those
do it in spurts.  The spurts tend to alternate among the various
active members, depending on what topic is under discussion at any one
time.  So, don't feel disappointed...'tis the nature of the beast.
The best way to get more activity is to get more members.  But one
feature of Yahoo groups, which is worse than the way it was with the
clubs, is the "Invite."  Only moderators can do it, instead of any
member.  And even if one is a moderator, it's a mess!  It used to be
(in clubs) that you could use EITHER someone's e-mail address or Yahoo
ID for sending an invitation.  But with groups, the e-mail address is
necessary.  That's a bitch, since so many people hide their addresses.

"Maybe I'll play around with it, I don't know. Very fortean, eh? I
love it."

Try it out...and if you find an especially fertile recruiting ground
for acquiring members, let me know, so I can do some fishing there!

--- In debunkingdebunkers@y..., "pack_rat2" <pack_rat2@y...> wrote:
> "No posts since early June."
>
> I don't think that's unusual...I used to belong to some clubs, which
> had dozens of members, that would experience a post, maybe, once every
> 6 mo. to a year.  I've noticed that a group usually has to reach 500
> members or so before it really gets active.  Basically, only a small
> percentage of a group's members ever post anything, and most of those
> do it in spurts.  The spurts tend to alternate among the various
> active members, depending on what topic is under discussion at any one
> time.  So, don't feel disappointed...'tis the nature of the beast.
> The best way to get more activity is to get more members.  But one
> feature of Yahoo groups, which is worse than the way it was with the
> clubs, is the "Invite."  Only moderators can do it, instead of any
> member.  And even if one is a moderator, it's a mess!  It used to be
> (in clubs) that you could use EITHER someone's e-mail address or Yahoo
> ID for sending an invitation.  But with groups, the e-mail address is
> necessary.  That's a bitch, since so many people hide their addresses.
>
> "Maybe I'll play around with it, I don't know. Very fortean, eh? I
> love it."
>
> Try it out...and if you find an especially fertile recruiting ground
> for acquiring members, let me know, so I can do some fishing there!


Hi packrat,

I know, the new Yahoo invite thing is a bitch, isn't it?

You're welcome to fish over there all you like!

~ ruby

...to post this, but it looks like Art Bell's show will have a
paranormal topic tonight.  And this one is also a "mentalist" and
stage magician, proving that all such folks are not like the infamous
Randi:

07/18/02 - Thu/Fri

Host: George Noory
Guest: Loyd Auerbach

Loyd Auerbach is Director of the Office of Paranormal Investigations.
He is also President of the California Society for Psychical Study,
and has been one of the very few parapsychologists active in both
psychical research and mentalists and magicians' organizations. For
over 22 years, he has been investigating cases of reported paranormal
phenomena.

Book: Mind over Matter
Book: Esp, Hauntings and Poltergeists: A Parapsychologist's Handbook
Book: Psychic Dreaming: A Parapsychologist's Handbook
Book: Reincarnation, Channeling and Possession: A Parapsychologist's
Handbook
Website: http://www.mindreader.com

cool!

Speaking of magicians, I just found out late last night the Amazing, er,
"Amusing" Randi is speaking (or, spoke,
it's probably over now) in Corvallis on the Oregon State Campus. That's about 40
miles from me. In Augst, at
the U of Oregon in my town, CSICOP is having a three or four day conference.
I'll try to make some of it. If I can
stand it, lol.

~ ruby



--- In debunkingdebunkers@y..., "pack_rat2" <pack_rat2@y...> wrote:
> ...to post this, but it looks like Art Bell's show will have a
> paranormal topic tonight.  And this one is also a "mentalist" and
> stage magician, proving that all such folks are not like the infamous
> Randi:
>
> 07/18/02 - Thu/Fri
>
> Host: George Noory
> Guest: Loyd Auerbach
>
> Loyd Auerbach is Director of the Office of Paranormal Investigations.
> He is also President of the California Society for Psychical Study,
> and has been one of the very few parapsychologists active in both
> psychical research and mentalists and magicians' organizations. For
> over 22 years, he has been investigating cases of reported paranormal
> phenomena.
>
> Book: Mind over Matter
> Book: Esp, Hauntings and Poltergeists: A Parapsychologist's Handbook
> Book: Psychic Dreaming: A Parapsychologist's Handbook
> Book: Reincarnation, Channeling and Possession: A Parapsychologist's
> Handbook
> Website: http://www.mindreader.com

>>Speaking of magicians, I just found out late last night the Amazing, er,
"Amusing" Randi is speaking (or, spoke, it's probably over now) in Corvallis
on the Oregon State Campus. That's about 40 miles from me. In Augst, at the
U of Oregon in my town, CSICOP is having a three or four day conference.
I'll try to make some of it. If I can stand it, lol.<<

     Have you ever seen him?  He's supposed to be pretty good.  Or was
anyway, he's like 90 or something now.  You might enjoy him.  And you might
find that a lot of CSICOP people are really nice, friendly, and interesting.
You should go.

And you'll also find the usual bunch of dorks that live for academic
conferences.

Cordially,
Rush

"Did you really think we want those laws observed?" said Dr. Ferris.  "We
WANT them to be broken.  You'd better get it straight that it's not a bunch
of boy scouts you're up against...  We're after power and we mean it...
There's no way to rule innocent men.  The only power any government has is
the power to crack down on criminals.  Well, when there aren't enough
criminals one MAKES them.  One declares so many things to be a crime that it
becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws.  Who wants a
nation of law-abiding citizens?  What's there in that for anyone?  But just
pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced or
objectively interpreted--and you create a nation of law-breakers--and then
you cash in on guilt.  Now that's the system Mr. Reardon, that's the game,
and once you understand it, you'll be much easier to deal with." -Ayn Rand,
Atlas Shrugged

ROF, right.

CSICOP as an organization, a bunch of ...well,

I'm quite sure some individuals are nice and pleasant. I've met Dr. Ray Hyman on
a few occassions, he' quite
nice. What does that have to do with the price of tea? Is this ad hominem in
reverse or something?

As far as "enjoying" myself at a CSICOP conference or related event; again, I
have to say, ROF.

Listen, I'm gearing up for the one in Eugene. That is, if they're not charging
an arm and a leg like they did last
year. Maybe I can get in for free under a bogus "Oregon Paranormal Research"
creditional (hey, I have a
website, I must be legitimate, lol) or Oregon UFO Review or something.

~ ruby

>>ROF, right.<<
     What does "ROF" mean?

>>CSICOP as an organization, a bunch of ...well, I'm quite sure some
individuals are nice and pleasant. I've met Dr. Ray Hyman on a few
occassions, he' quite nice. What does that have to do with the price of tea?
Is this ad hominem in reverse or something?<<
     No, I just hear nutjobs condemning them as a whole for no real reason.
They are simple people who want answers and proof, not idle speculation and
conjecture.

>>As far as "enjoying" myself at a CSICOP conference or related event;
again, I have to say, ROF.<<
     Why not?

>>Maybe I can get in for free under a bogus "Oregon Paranormal Research"
creditional (hey, I have a website, I must be legitimate, lol) or Oregon UFO
Review or something.<<
     Bogus would certainly be apropos all right.  Just like all of the claims
generally presented to them, bogus.

Cordially,
Rush

"Did you really think we want those laws observed?" said Dr. Ferris.  "We
WANT them to be broken.  You'd better get it straight that it's not a bunch
of boy scouts you're up against...  We're after power and we mean it...
There's no way to rule innocent men.  The only power any government has is
the power to crack down on criminals.  Well, when there aren't enough
criminals one MAKES them.  One declares so many things to be a crime that it
becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws.  Who wants a
nation of law-abiding citizens?  What's there in that for anyone?  But just
pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced or
objectively interpreted--and you create a nation of law-breakers--and then
you cash in on guilt.  Now that's the system Mr. Reardon, that's the game,
and once you understand it, you'll be much easier to deal with." -Ayn Rand,
Atlas Shrugged

-I should have known better. You are insulting. All my "claims" are bogus, you
bet. Me, I'm just a liar! Lie, lie, lie.
As I said to you long ago in one post in here; your "cordially yours"is passive
aggressive nonsense. You don't
mean that at all.

I MUST remember not to respond to little debunker twits! WHEN will I learn?

~ ruby

-- In debunkingdebunkers@y..., "> Rush <" <milhouse-vanhouten@a...> wrote:
> >>ROF, right.<<
>     What does "ROF" mean?
>
> >>CSICOP as an organization, a bunch of ...well, I'm quite sure some
> individuals are nice and pleasant. I've met Dr. Ray Hyman on a few
> occassions, he' quite nice. What does that have to do with the price of tea?
> Is this ad hominem in reverse or something?<<
>     No, I just hear nutjobs condemning them as a whole for no real reason.
> They are simple people who want answers and proof, not idle speculation and
> conjecture.
>
> >>As far as "enjoying" myself at a CSICOP conference or related event;
> again, I have to say, ROF.<<
>     Why not?
>
> >>Maybe I can get in for free under a bogus "Oregon Paranormal Research"
> creditional (hey, I have a website, I must be legitimate, lol) or Oregon UFO
> Review or something.<<
>     Bogus would certainly be apropos all right.  Just like all of the claims
> generally presented to them, bogus.
>
> Cordially,
> Rush
>
> "Did you really think we want those laws observed?" said Dr. Ferris.  "We
> WANT them to be broken.  You'd better get it straight that it's not a bunch
> of boy scouts you're up against...  We're after power and we mean it...
> There's no way to rule innocent men.  The only power any government has is
> the power to crack down on criminals.  Well, when there aren't enough
> criminals one MAKES them.  One declares so many things to be a crime that it
> becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws.  Who wants a
> nation of law-abiding citizens?  What's there in that for anyone?  But just
> pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced or
> objectively interpreted--and you create a nation of law-breakers--and then
> you cash in on guilt.  Now that's the system Mr. Reardon, that's the game,
> and once you understand it, you'll be much easier to deal with." -Ayn Rand,
> Atlas Shrugged

>>I should have known better. You are insulting. All my "claims" are bogus,
you bet. Me, I'm just a liar! Lie, lie, lie. As I said to you long ago in
one post in here; your "cordially yours"is passive aggressive nonsense. You
don't mean that at all.<<
     Geez, Ruby, lighten up.  Don't read into what I say.  The "Cordially,"
is there because I mean it.  I'm not angry, annoyed, nor was I insulting.

     I didn't say "YOUR" claims are bogus.  I said that the claims presented
to CSICOP are.  Crystal skulls, dowsing, ESP, cold fusion, and et cetera.
I'm not aware of any claims you have made, or have presented for scientific
verification.

>>I MUST remember not to respond to little debunker twits! WHEN will I
learn?<<
     I am a "little debunker twit"?  Criminy.  If you are unable to respond
without personal attacks, don't bother.  Leave the personal stuff off.  No
one cares.

Cordially,
Rush

"Did you really think we want those laws observed?" said Dr. Ferris.  "We
WANT them to be broken.  You'd better get it straight that it's not a bunch
of boy scouts you're up against...  We're after power and we mean it...
There's no way to rule innocent men.  The only power any government has is
the power to crack down on criminals.  Well, when there aren't enough
criminals one MAKES them.  One declares so many things to be a crime that it
becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws.  Who wants a
nation of law-abiding citizens?  What's there in that for anyone?  But just
pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced or
objectively interpreted--and you create a nation of law-breakers--and then
you cash in on guilt.  Now that's the system Mr. Reardon, that's the game,
and once you understand it, you'll be much easier to deal with." -Ayn Rand,
Atlas Shrugged