If anyone is interested in some cows that show a fullblood pedigree on
paper that are in western Canada, let me know.  I understand they are going  to
the sale barn. . SOON. . .  .as the price of hay is extremely high and  the
herd is being drastically reduced.

Send me an email if you are interested in preserving these  bloodlines.
Perhaps the price will be right considering the need to move  them out of the
herd.

Send me an email for info!

Judy




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lang may yer lum reek!  Have a good one Carol!  Liz

--- On Sun, 11/29/09, cddexter <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

From: cddexter <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [Dexter Cattle] birthdays
To: dextercattle2@yahoogroups.com
Received: Sunday, November 29, 2009, 12:05 PM







 









       ya know, it's funny, I don't FEEL any older.  c.























       __________________________________________________________________
Connect with friends from any web browser - no download required. Try the new
Yahoo! Canada Messenger for the Web BETA at
http://ca.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Downer,

TRACK HIS TEMPERATURE!! 101 to 102 rectally is normal, but any higher is an
indication that he needs more antibiotic. Getting water into him is
IMPERITIVE, it flushes the bloodstream of toxins from the bacteria and the
dead cells that the antibiotic is creating. KEEP the Vet informed and have
him/her come out in a few days again to see what the situation is and he/she
can advise from there. Pneumonia can take a month or more to totally
resolve.

Robert Seddon



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Please understand that my intent with the following question is to learn.
I'm a newbie to Dexters specifically and other than tagging along on my
grandfather's (hereford) cattle ranch for my whole life, I'm inexperienced
with owning/breeding cattle.

I wonder if a bull that gets this sick is the bull that you (meaning generic
"you") would want as a herd sire?  It seems to me that it might indicate a
weak immune system, which could be passed along.  Am I being unrealistically
harsh in my thought process?

Again - I'm not saying anything bad about their bull.  Personally,  I hope
he recovers nicely and fathers dozens of great dexters.  I'm just asking if
I need to adjust the way my mind generally works on such issues.

Thanks for any discussion that you experienced folk might offer....

On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 12:40 PM, <JAMSHundred@...> wrote:

>
>
> Another breeder has called and asked me to see if anyone can offer help or
> experience to get their young bull back on his feet.
>
> Bull went down on Tuesday. . . labored breathing and diagnosed with
> pneumonia and treated by vet. Since then he has been treated for the
> pneumonia, and fed, ( they say he IS eating but not as well as they would
> like), and
> being giving water manually as he seems not to be interested in drinking.
> They are giving him molasses on feed hoping to increase his appetite and
> energy level and he has also been given electrolytes and probiotics.
>
> They get him up at least twice a day with a sling apparatus but he will NOT
>
> try to attempt to stand on his own. He is not totally lethargic, but he
> seems to prefer lying around or he has yet to recover enough to have the
> strength to stand on his own.
>
> This is their "pet" and future herd bull. He is one year of age. Too big
> and beefy to manually pick up even with a couple of people doing the
> lifting/urging.
>
> Anyone have any helpful advice or experience? I'm sending them the link
> to the forum so they can read the responses.
>
> Judy
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>



--
Karen in Oklahoma


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Another breeder has called and asked me to see if anyone can offer help or
experience to get their young bull back on his feet.

Bull went down on Tuesday. . .  labored breathing and diagnosed with
pneumonia and treated by vet.   Since then he has been treated for the
pneumonia, and fed, ( they say he IS eating but not as well as they would like),
and
being giving water manually as he seems not to be interested in  drinking.
They are giving him molasses on feed hoping to increase  his  appetite and
energy level  and he has also been given  electrolytes and probiotics.

They get him up at least twice a day with a sling apparatus but he will NOT
  try to attempt to stand on his own.  He is not totally lethargic, but he
seems to prefer lying around or he has yet to recover enough to have the
strength to stand on his own.

This is their "pet" and future herd bull.  He is one year of  age.  Too big
and beefy to manually pick up even with a couple of people  doing the
lifting/urging.

Anyone have any helpful advice or experience?  I'm sending them the  link
to the forum so they can read the responses.

Judy




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Carol,

Sagittarian!  What a sign!

Happy Birthday and may it be the best yet!

Here is your horoscope for the day:


You will feel on top form, like a teenager. You will feel good, the weight
taken off your shoulders, light as air: you will have the feeling of owning
the  whole world, being free, being able to do whatever you want. Good
position if  you are in an examination period, or in a competition.
You will feel good. Meeting new people, full of originality. A time when
distractions and dreams will make you lose contact with reality.
You will be on top form, really healthy, in good spirits. You will want to
listen to music, you will appreciate beautiful things, paintings,
everything  that is harmonious, elegant, aesthetic even more than before.
Although
you will  lack reason and logic, on the contrary your psychic faculties (such
as  inspiration and clairvoyance) are likely to be highly tuned.
****************************************************************************
*****************************************
Enjoy your special day!
Judy






<<<In a message dated 11/29/2009 12:07:35 P.M. Eastern Standard  Time,
no_reply@yahoogroups.com writes:>>




ya know, it's funny, I don't FEEL any older. c.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 11/29/2009 11:07:31 A.M. Central Standard Time,
no_reply@yahoogroups.com writes:



ya  know, it's funny, I don't FEEL any older.




I don't either - until I start unloading feed, or try to spend a whole
morning digging or weeding in the garden. THEN I feel a **LOT** older.  LOL.

Happy Birthday

Mary

Check out my Blog: _Mary's Little Acre, Homestead Heaven in  Oklahoma_
(http://maryslilacre.blogspot.com/)





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

ya know, it's funny, I don't FEEL any older.  c.

The Celestial Herd is continuing with the partial herd liquidation of its
animals. These are a group of some of the finest Dexter cattle in the Pacific
Northwest. Confirmation, and udder quality has been the main focus of the
breeding program and it shows in the quality of these animals.

We have updated the "Sales" Page on our web site showing the animals for sale
right now. Weanling Heifers, Bred Heifers, Bred cows, Cow calf pairs, both Black
and Red. These animals are priced to sell with heifers starting at $800 and Red
animals starting as low as $900 each.

All the cows have been bred back to our red bull, Nova that has been in with
them. If you buy a cow calf pair, you will be getting a 3 for one deal. All cows
but two have heifers at their sides.

Red cows will be having red calves and all but 2 black cows carry red. So if you
would like colour, you are going to get it.

Health inspections and transfers will be paid for. Registrations of the calves
and Bangs vaccinations for the heifer calves will be the responsibility of the
buyer as the heifers are still under age.

Transportation can be supplied within 100 mile radius of my place on a / loaded
mile basis or I would be willing to meet you within that radius.

Please serious inquiries only. Photos of most of the cows can be seen on our web
site. For additional information, photos, ect. Please email me at
ricards@gotsky. com



Chris Ricard

Celestial Farms
www.celestialfarms. Net

I have a member that has a couple of yearling bulls for sale. One longer legged,
dehorned, and the other is quite short, still has horns. They are by Max of the
Double D, she says they have Maxs layed back personality!!
She also has a  2  year old bull (dehorned) (AI out of John Potters herd)
'Knight Farm's Smithwick' that she would like to sell.

Please contact Sue Yehl 585-928-2725

Thanks
Carol Koller

We are delivering 2 Dexters to 2 different new homes in NC on November
30th.  We have a few outstanding cows still available - they are on our
website.., 1 black long legged  that carries red and dun exposed to a dun  LL
bull, 1 black short legged exposed to a dun LL bull and 1 black long legged
that carries red and dun and is available with her dehorned steer calf at
side.  ALL are halter broke, dehorned, PHA tested negative (agrigenomics)  very
healthy and ready to go.  The bull they are exposed to is also PHA
negative. Getting health certs done this coming Tuesday so if interested and are
in
NC (or anywhere between Philadelphia, TN Charlotte and Raleigh, NC)  let
us know.  Picts and more information on our website
_www.freedomfarmdexters.com_ (http://www.freedomfarmdexters.com)

Sally


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

AA rose by any other name <G>
Dirk


Macaw Ranch
Dawson Texas
Dexter Cattle, Red Wattle Hogs, Kiko and Spanish Goats




________________________________
From: Gene <genebo16@...>
To: dextercattle2@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, November 17, 2009 8:15:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Dexter Cattle] suitable bull for "short legged heifer"




--- In dextercattle2@ yahoogroups. com, "Gene" <genebo16@.. .> wrote:
>.....
>
> Neither one. Very few Jerseys have ever been tested. A lot of Guernseys have
been. I believe that they tested the best of all the commercial dairy breeds, at
around 60% A2. Holsteins were only 30%.
>

That's not very clear what I meant to say. It's the Guernsey breed that tested
best of all the commercial dairy breeds.

Genebo
Paradise Farm







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In dextercattle2@yahoogroups.com, "Gene" <genebo16@...> wrote:
>.....
>
> Neither one. Very few Jerseys have ever been tested. A lot of Guernseys have
been. I believe that they tested the best of all the commercial dairy breeds, at
around 60% A2. Holsteins were only 30%.
>

That's not very clear what I meant to say. It's the Guernsey breed that tested
best of all the commercial dairy breeds.

Genebo
Paradise Farm

--- In dextercattle2@yahoogroups.com, dirk loren <macawranch@...> wrote:
>
> Hey Gene
>
> I thought historically jerseys were all a2 or was that guernseys?
>  Dirk

Neither one. Very few Jerseys have ever been tested. A lot of Guernseys have
been. I believe that they tested the best of all the commercial dairy breeds, at
around 60% A2. Holsteins were only 30%.

I've tested 2 Jerseys. One bull is CC for A2 while the only cow is AA for A2.
That means she's pure A1, no A2 gene at all.

The only way to know you're getting milk with A2 beta casein in it without DNA
testing is to drink goat's milk. The A1 variant doesn't exist in goats.

A1 beta casein can be found in every breed of cattle that has been tested so
far. That includes commercial dairy breeds, some Devons and a few Dexters. Most
other breeds haven't been tested and any claims made about them is just wishful
thinking.

When I first began reading about A2, I assumed that the older, more primitive
breeds, that had never been outcrossed to popular dairy breeds, would be free of
A1 beta casein. That hasn't proven out. I've even found two Dexters that tested
AA for A2. A1 is everywhere.

Genebo
Paradise Farm

I think my feelings are the same.  My cows are carriers(HC) and I breed them
to a non-carrier (HN) bull.  Half the claves HN and half are HC.  Last year
we got two heifers, one HN and one HC.  This year we got a heifer, HN, and a
bull, HC.



C. J. Welle

Sybaritic Time

Sandy, Utah



   _____

From: dextercattle2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dextercattle2@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of wendy s
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 7:11 AM
To: Dexter cattle 2
Subject: RE: [Dexter Cattle] suitable bull for "short legged heifer"






Hey Dirk,

thanks for all your thoughts on my "delima"... I've thought about breeding
short to short.. I am not sure that I could ethically do that. personal
choice.. I also have a breed of horse that has some issues when you breed
"carrier types" together.. its not a lethal issue, but it isn't a great
result in my personal opinion.. so I sort of all ready have a built in
"don't do that" mentality when it comes to breeding..

Our other problem is that I don't think we can run a bull here. We tried it
this summer.. it was a disaster.. our neighbor has a bull (a huge 1800 lb +
beef bull), they share a fence.. well, they shared the fun in destroying the
fence.. over and over and over.. hot wire- destroyed.... barbed wire -
destroyed... gates- destroyed.... you name it, they destroyed it.. then our
bull would be in his field, chasing his cows, poking his bull with his
horns. (Did you know that small and horned wins over huge and polled?).. it
was not fun.. long story short.. for our own personal sanity, we sold the
bull..

Keeping Mabel (the short heifer) is mostly just personal indulgence. the
current plan is to sell the rest of the momma cows.. but even an indugence
has to pay their way to some extent around here. which is why I am starting
to explore my breeding options for her. Most likely we'll have to find a
Dexter bull for AI and go that route. Unless the neighbor actually sells his
bull and we decide to keep the momma cows after all.. so many choices and
options in the world..

thanks again Dirk. I aways appreciate the time and effort you put in to your
answers!!

wendy p
www.heritagefarmsnw.com
www.windykcurlies.com
www.healthy-hooves.net

> To: dextercattle2@ <mailto:dextercattle2%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com
> From: macawranch@yahoo. <mailto:macawranch%40yahoo.com> com
> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 03:12:12 -0800
> Subject: Re: [Dexter Cattle] suitable bull for "short legged heifer"
>
> Hi Wendy
>
> Breeding age is the same, and you could breed a Long to a Short. Primary
reason to breed a carrier to a non carrier is to avoid a bull dog calf.
However, with your desire to keep the short leg or potential carrier, I
would recommend breeding of carriers and take your 25% chance of a bulldog
calf and selling the 25% chance of long legs.
> Having both on my place now the breeding of a large long leg to a short
leg is generating slightly larger short legs. Then again I have some very
large Dexter Long Legs as I bought beef lines.
>
> As to crossing with different breeds, they usually use a dexter bull for
breeding the mini. If you do decide to breed to a jersey bull, please
carefully research the size of the calves he throws.
> You would need an underweight jersey calf.
> So many of the association have posted the weight of their calves when
born in the 20 to 25 lbs range I would be hesitant. Then again on our ranch
the average weight is closer to 45 lbs. Again I have some very large long
legged Dexters. Since you are wanting to breed the shortlegs and mini
jersey, I would recommend getting a good dexter shortleg bull and a jersey
cow. Then you can have the best of both worlds.
>
> Dirk
>
> Macaw Ranch
> Dawson Texas
> Dexter Cattle, Red Wattle Hogs, Kiko and Spanish Goats
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: wendy s <farmmamma2@msn. <mailto:farmmamma2%40msn.com> com>
> To: Dexter cattle 2 <dextercattle2@
<mailto:dextercattle2%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Mon, November 16, 2009 10:37:14 PM
> Subject: [Dexter Cattle] suitable bull for "short legged heifer"
>
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> I am just wondering about the short legged Dexter heifers .. at what age
can they be bred? is it any different for a short legged one vs a long
legged one? I would assume that breeding a short dexter to a tall Dexter
bull is acceptable size wise, right? After all, its just the legs that are
dwarfed right? is the body frame size about the same on a short vs tall
Dexter?
>
> what about cross breeding? does anyone ever use a different breed bull on
their Dexter cows? for instance a smallish Jersey? or would that not be safe
in terms of calf size?
>
> One of our long legged cows had a short heifer this year.. we think she is
the cutest thing on 4 legs. anyway, I am trying to plan for her future. We
may well end up selling the bigger Dexter's as well as all of our other
momma cows, but we plan on keeping Mabel (the short heifer) for ourselves.
We'll have to AI her and while I know there are great Dexter bulls available
for AI, I also know that there is a good local demand for "mini Jersey's"
for milking. so I am toying with that notion if its a reasonable cross to
make. I wouldn't want to put her or the calf at risk. I know that Jerseys
are small calf sires, so perhaps it would be ok??
>
> wendy p
> www.heritagefarmsnw .com
> www.windykcurlies. com
> www.healthy- hooves.net
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I can tell you that with my cattle, that have Lucifer breeding, the farm average
birth weight is 54.6 lbs. My bull Nova is around the 54 lb range for an average
and my other bull Kiche ( or Jr as he is know here) is 51.3 lb. Jr's birth
weight was 55 lbs. The largest calf that I have had was this year was this year.
It was a heifer that was 65 lbs. and the smallest was a heifer that was 28 lbs
some years back.

Out of the 17 calves born this year on the farm the average was 51.3 lbs. With
13 being heifers and 4 being bulls.

I have also personally found that the birth weight does not transpire to the
weight gain on bulls. I have had Average daily weight gains from Birth to 200
days as low as 1.93 lbs / day and as high as 2.63 lbs / day. Even year to year
with the same cows the wt gain / day can vary. BTW , Bulls are the only ones
that I have tracked……

Chris Ricard
Celestial Farms

--- In dextercattle2@yahoogroups.com, cddexter <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Wendy, While paying attention to the size of the bull is a sensible thing
to do, don't get carried away with it.  Any Jersey bull would work just fine,
since you seem to be tending toward the milky side of things.  It was common
practice in England to cross dexter cows with just about anything, including
charolais, because the dexter was cheap to keep, but you still got a good
growthy calf with good yield.  For whatever reason, most of the time the Dexter
cow will control the size of the calf.  I don't know if it has something to do
with the smaller quantity of nutrients, or what, but it works.
>
> I haven't seen the 25# calves Dirk is talking about, and agree that 45# is
pretty average.  My cows were all non dwarf, but none were over 42", and my
birth weights were all in the 42 - 48# range, over 25 years of breeding, and a
lot of calves.  Lucifer tended to throw larger calves, often in the 55# range,
so that is something you might work around if you wanted those genetics because
of the milk.
>

Carol,

Thats interesting about the Lucifer birth weights. Our first two calves this
year (bulls) weighed #55 (HotnHumid) and #52 (Tighe). Both were first calf
heifers with Lucifer breeding.

The following is some interesting info on a birth weight study I found that you
might be interested in Wendy.

   A Study of the Birth Weight and Gestation of Dairy Animals
   J. B. Fitch, P. C. McGilliard and G. M. Drumm
   Kansas State Agricultural College, Manhattan, Kansas

   ABSTRACT


   The average weight of Jersey calves in the herd studied was 57
   pounds, of Guernsey calves 64 pounds, of Ayrshire calves 72 pounds,
   and of Holstein calves 91 pounds.

   The Jersey calves represented 6.3 per cent of the weight of their
   dams, the Guernseys 6.7 per cent, the Ayrshires 6.9 per cent and
   the Holsteins 7.8 per cent of the weight of their dams.

   The male calves were 4 to 11 pounds heavier than the female calves.
   The average birth weight of all bull calves studied is 7.8 per cent
   heavier than the females.

   Immature cows produced smaller calves than mature cows.

   The birth weights recorded for dairy calves in the Kansas herd were
   consistently higher than the weights of calves reported from the
   Missouri and Iowa herds.

   The nutrition of the dam had but little influence on the weight of
   the calf except in the case of cows on a restricted diet-In the
   case studied the dams on a restricted diet produced calves heavier
   in proportion than did well fed dams.

   A sire may have the ability to influence the birth weight of a
   calf, but only to a limited degree.

   The gestation period has no definite influence upon the size of the
   calf at birth. There are, however, within the different breeds,
   indications that the large calves are carried slightly longer than
   the smaller calves.

The average weight of Jersey calves was close to the weights of my Dexters (easy
births no complications). It also appears the cow has more to do with birth
weights than the bull. I messed up the averages of the two bulls when I reported
them to Dan Butterfield (they had all been in the #40 range for HotnHumid and
mid #30-low #40 range for Tighe until then).

Wendy there is a Belfair yahoo group that breeds minature Jerseys & Dexters.
There are also lots of hits when you search DexterxJersey.

Good Luck,

Gary

Hi C

I would never cross a first time heifer nor even a second time cow.
I have a large cross section of goats breeds and sizes.  The first and second
timers don't always control the size of the kids.  I have lost a couple and have
seen several hurt because of the size.
There is always risk even with an experienced cow with several calving's behind
her.  JMPO

  Dirk


Macaw Ranch
Dawson Texas
Dexter Cattle, Red Wattle Hogs, Kiko and Spanish Goats




________________________________
From: cddexter <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
To: dextercattle2@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, November 17, 2009 12:03:55 PM
Subject: [Dexter Cattle] Re: suitable bull for "short legged heifer"


Hi Wendy, While paying attention to the size of the bull is a sensible thing to
do, don't get carried away with it.  Any Jersey bull would work just fine, since
you seem to be tending toward the milky side of things.  It was common practice
in England to cross dexter cows with just about anything, including charolais,
because the dexter was cheap to keep, but you still got a good growthy calf with
good yield.  For whatever reason, most of the time the Dexter cow will control
the size of the calf.  I don't know if it has something to do with the smaller
quantity of nutrients, or what, but it works.

I haven't seen the 25# calves Dirk is talking about, and agree that 45# is
pretty average.  My cows were all non dwarf, but none were over 42", and my
birth weights were all in the 42 - 48# range, over 25 years of breeding, and a
lot of calves.  Lucifer tended to throw larger calves, often in the 55# range,
so that is something you might work around if you wanted those genetics because
of the milk.

regards, c.

--- In dextercattle2@ yahoogroups. com, wendy s <farmmamma2@ ...> wrote:
>
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I am just wondering about the short legged Dexter heifers .. at what age can
they be bred? is it any different for a short legged one vs a long legged one? 
I would assume that breeding a short dexter to a tall Dexter bull is acceptable
size wise, right? After all, its just the legs that are dwarfed right? is the
body frame size about the same on a short vs tall Dexter?
>
>
>
> what about cross breeding? does anyone ever use a different breed bull on
their Dexter cows? for instance a smallish Jersey? or would that not be safe in
terms of calf size?
>
>
>
> One of our long legged cows had a short heifer this year.. we think she is the
cutest thing on 4 legs. anyway, I am trying to plan for her future. We may well
end up selling the bigger Dexter's as well as all of our other momma cows, but
we plan on keeping Mabel (the short heifer) for ourselves. We'll have to AI her
and while I know there are great Dexter bulls available for AI, I also know that
there is a good local demand for "mini Jersey's" for milking. so I am toying
with that notion if its a reasonable cross to make.  I wouldn't want to put her
or the calf at risk. I know that Jerseys are small calf sires, so perhaps it
would be ok??
>
> wendy p
> www.heritagefarmsnw .com
> www.windykcurlies. com
> www.healthy- hooves.net
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Wendy, While paying attention to the size of the bull is a sensible thing to
do, don't get carried away with it.  Any Jersey bull would work just fine, since
you seem to be tending toward the milky side of things.  It was common practice
in England to cross dexter cows with just about anything, including charolais,
because the dexter was cheap to keep, but you still got a good growthy calf with
good yield.  For whatever reason, most of the time the Dexter cow will control
the size of the calf.  I don't know if it has something to do with the smaller
quantity of nutrients, or what, but it works.

I haven't seen the 25# calves Dirk is talking about, and agree that 45# is
pretty average.  My cows were all non dwarf, but none were over 42", and my
birth weights were all in the 42 - 48# range, over 25 years of breeding, and a
lot of calves.  Lucifer tended to throw larger calves, often in the 55# range,
so that is something you might work around if you wanted those genetics because
of the milk.

regards, c.

--- In dextercattle2@yahoogroups.com, wendy s <farmmamma2@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I am just wondering about the short legged Dexter heifers .. at what age can
they be bred? is it any different for a short legged one vs a long legged one? 
I would assume that breeding a short dexter to a tall Dexter bull is acceptable
size wise, right? After all, its just the legs that are dwarfed right? is the
body frame size about the same on a short vs tall Dexter?
>
>
>
> what about cross breeding? does anyone ever use a different breed bull on
their Dexter cows? for instance a smallish Jersey? or would that not be safe in
terms of calf size?
>
>
>
> One of our long legged cows had a short heifer this year.. we think she is the
cutest thing on 4 legs. anyway, I am trying to plan for her future. We may well
end up selling the bigger Dexter's as well as all of our other momma cows, but
we plan on keeping Mabel (the short heifer) for ourselves. We'll have to AI her
and while I know there are great Dexter bulls available for AI, I also know that
there is a good local demand for "mini Jersey's" for milking. so I am toying
with that notion if its a reasonable cross to make.  I wouldn't want to put her
or the calf at risk. I know that Jerseys are small calf sires, so perhaps it
would be ok??
>
> wendy p
> www.heritagefarmsnw.com
> www.windykcurlies.com
> www.healthy-hooves.net
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Hey Gene

I thought historically jerseys were all a2 or was that guernseys?
  Dirk


Macaw Ranch
Dawson Texas
Dexter Cattle, Red Wattle Hogs, Kiko and Spanish Goats




________________________________
From: Gene <genebo16@...>
To: dextercattle2@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, November 17, 2009 11:08:20 AM
Subject: Re: [Dexter Cattle] suitable bull for "short legged heifer"


Wendy,

In all respects except for breeding to avoid bulldogs, you treat the short and
long legged Dexters the same. The legs are the only significant difference.

You can use AI with a long legged bull, arrange a visit to a bull, arrange a
visit from a bull, or buy a bull to use for a round of breeding, then put him in
the freezer.

You can probably find a suitable bull, 2 years old, for $1 per pound on the
hoof. You can't beat that for cost effectiveness.

I have a cow on loan right now, bred to a jersey bull. He's a small bull and was
a small calf, so we're hoping all will turn out fine. There is some risk
involved any time you breed a small cow to a larger breed bull. It's usually
done the other way around, like Dirk said.

In this case, he's the only A2 Jersey we know of and she's an A2 Dexter cow, and
we're hoping to start a line of small A2 Dexter/Jersey milking cattle. It's a
goal worthy of a little risk.

Genebo
Paradise Farm







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Wendy,

In all respects except for breeding to avoid bulldogs, you treat the short and
long legged Dexters the same. The legs are the only significant difference.

You can use AI with a long legged bull, arrange a visit to a bull, arrange a
visit from a bull, or buy a bull to use for a round of breeding, then put him in
the freezer.

You can probably find a suitable bull, 2 years old, for $1 per pound on the
hoof. You can't beat that for cost effectiveness.

I have a cow on loan right now, bred to a jersey bull. He's a small bull and was
a small calf, so we're hoping all will turn out fine. There is some risk
involved any time you breed a small cow to a larger breed bull. It's usually
done the other way around, like Dirk said.

In this case, he's the only A2 Jersey we know of and she's an A2 Dexter cow, and
we're hoping to start a line of small A2 Dexter/Jersey milking cattle. It's a
goal worthy of a little risk.

Genebo
Paradise Farm

Hey Dirk,



thanks for all your thoughts on my "delima"... I've thought about breeding short
to short.. I am not sure that I could ethically do that.  personal choice.. I
also have a breed of horse that has some issues when you breed "carrier types"
together.. its not a lethal issue, but it isn't a great result in my personal
opinion.. so I sort of all ready have a built in "don't do that" mentality when
it comes to breeding..



Our other problem is that I don't think we can run a bull here. We tried it this
summer.. it was a disaster.. our neighbor has a bull (a huge 1800 lb + beef
bull), they share a fence.. well, they shared the fun in destroying the fence..
over and over and over.. hot wire- destroyed.... barbed wire - destroyed...
gates- destroyed....  you name it, they destroyed it.. then our bull would be in
his field, chasing his cows, poking his bull with his horns. (Did you know that
small and horned wins over huge and polled?).. it was not fun.. long story
short.. for our own personal sanity, we sold the bull..



Keeping Mabel (the short heifer) is mostly just personal indulgence. the current
plan is to sell the rest of the momma cows.. but even an indugence has to pay
their way to some extent around here. which is why I am starting to explore my
breeding options for her. Most likely we'll have to find a Dexter bull for AI
and go that route.  Unless the neighbor actually sells his bull and we decide to
keep the momma cows after all.. so many choices and options in the world..



thanks again Dirk. I aways appreciate the time and effort you put in to your
answers!!

wendy p
www.heritagefarmsnw.com
www.windykcurlies.com
www.healthy-hooves.net




> To: dextercattle2@yahoogroups.com
> From: macawranch@...
> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 03:12:12 -0800
> Subject: Re: [Dexter Cattle] suitable bull for "short legged heifer"
>
> Hi Wendy
>
> Breeding age is the same, and you could breed a Long to a Short. Primary
reason to breed a carrier to a non carrier is to avoid a bull dog calf. However,
with your desire to keep the short leg or potential carrier, I would recommend
breeding of carriers and take your 25% chance of a bulldog calf and selling the
25% chance of long legs.
> Having both on my place now the breeding of a large long leg to a short leg is
generating slightly larger short legs. Then again I have some very large Dexter
Long Legs as I bought beef lines.
>
> As to crossing with different breeds, they usually use a dexter bull for
breeding the mini. If you do decide to breed to a jersey bull, please carefully
research the size of the calves he throws.
> You would need an underweight jersey calf.
> So many of the association have posted the weight of their calves when born in
the 20 to 25 lbs range I would be hesitant. Then again on our ranch the average
weight is closer to 45 lbs. Again I have some very large long legged Dexters.
Since you are wanting to breed the shortlegs and mini jersey, I would recommend
getting a good dexter shortleg bull and a jersey cow. Then you can have the best
of both worlds.
>
> Dirk
>
> Macaw Ranch
> Dawson Texas
> Dexter Cattle, Red Wattle Hogs, Kiko and Spanish Goats
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: wendy s <farmmamma2@...>
> To: Dexter cattle 2 <dextercattle2@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Mon, November 16, 2009 10:37:14 PM
> Subject: [Dexter Cattle] suitable bull for "short legged heifer"
>
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> I am just wondering about the short legged Dexter heifers .. at what age can
they be bred? is it any different for a short legged one vs a long legged one? I
would assume that breeding a short dexter to a tall Dexter bull is acceptable
size wise, right? After all, its just the legs that are dwarfed right? is the
body frame size about the same on a short vs tall Dexter?
>
> what about cross breeding? does anyone ever use a different breed bull on
their Dexter cows? for instance a smallish Jersey? or would that not be safe in
terms of calf size?
>
> One of our long legged cows had a short heifer this year.. we think she is the
cutest thing on 4 legs. anyway, I am trying to plan for her future. We may well
end up selling the bigger Dexter's as well as all of our other momma cows, but
we plan on keeping Mabel (the short heifer) for ourselves. We'll have to AI her
and while I know there are great Dexter bulls available for AI, I also know that
there is a good local demand for "mini Jersey's" for milking. so I am toying
with that notion if its a reasonable cross to make. I wouldn't want to put her
or the calf at risk. I know that Jerseys are small calf sires, so perhaps it
would be ok??
>
> wendy p
> www.heritagefarmsnw .com
> www.windykcurlies. com
> www.healthy- hooves.net
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Wendy

Breeding age is the same, and you could breed a Long to a Short.  Primary reason
to breed a carrier to a non carrier is to avoid a bull dog calf.  However, with
your desire to keep the short leg or potential carrier, I would recommend
breeding of carriers and take your 25% chance of a bulldog calf and selling the
25% chance of long legs.
Having both on my place now the breeding of a large long leg to a short leg is
generating slightly larger short legs.  Then again I have some very large Dexter
Long Legs as I bought beef lines.

As to crossing with different breeds, they usually use a dexter bull for
breeding the mini.  If you do decide to breed to a jersey bull, please carefully
research the size of the calves he throws.
You would need an underweight jersey calf.
So many of the association have posted the weight of their calves when born in
the 20 to 25 lbs range I would be hesitant.  Then again on our ranch the average
weight is closer to 45 lbs.  Again I have some very large long legged Dexters. 
Since you are wanting to breed the shortlegs and mini jersey, I would recommend
getting a good dexter shortleg bull and a jersey cow.  Then you can have the
best of both worlds.

Dirk

Macaw Ranch
Dawson Texas
Dexter Cattle, Red Wattle Hogs, Kiko and Spanish Goats




________________________________
From: wendy s <farmmamma2@...>
To: Dexter cattle 2 <dextercattle2@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Mon, November 16, 2009 10:37:14 PM
Subject: [Dexter Cattle] suitable bull for "short legged heifer"



Hi all,

I am just wondering about the short legged Dexter heifers .. at what age can
they be bred? is it any different for a short legged one vs a long legged one? 
I would assume that breeding a short dexter to a tall Dexter bull is acceptable
size wise, right? After all, its just the legs that are dwarfed right? is the
body frame size about the same on a short vs tall Dexter?

what about cross breeding? does anyone ever use a different breed bull on their
Dexter cows? for instance a smallish Jersey? or would that not be safe in terms
of calf size?

One of our long legged cows had a short heifer this year.. we think she is the
cutest thing on 4 legs. anyway, I am trying to plan for her future. We may well
end up selling the bigger Dexter's as well as all of our other momma cows, but
we plan on keeping Mabel (the short heifer) for ourselves. We'll have to AI her
and while I know there are great Dexter bulls available for AI, I also know that
there is a good local demand for "mini Jersey's" for milking. so I am toying
with that notion if its a reasonable cross to make.  I wouldn't want to put her
or the calf at risk. I know that Jerseys are small calf sires, so perhaps it
would be ok??

wendy p
www.heritagefarmsnw .com
www.windykcurlies. com
www.healthy- hooves.net



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi all,



I am just wondering about the short legged Dexter heifers .. at what age can
they be bred? is it any different for a short legged one vs a long legged one? 
I would assume that breeding a short dexter to a tall Dexter bull is acceptable
size wise, right? After all, its just the legs that are dwarfed right? is the
body frame size about the same on a short vs tall Dexter?



what about cross breeding? does anyone ever use a different breed bull on their
Dexter cows? for instance a smallish Jersey? or would that not be safe in terms
of calf size?



One of our long legged cows had a short heifer this year.. we think she is the
cutest thing on 4 legs. anyway, I am trying to plan for her future. We may well
end up selling the bigger Dexter's as well as all of our other momma cows, but
we plan on keeping Mabel (the short heifer) for ourselves. We'll have to AI her
and while I know there are great Dexter bulls available for AI, I also know that
there is a good local demand for "mini Jersey's" for milking. so I am toying
with that notion if its a reasonable cross to make.  I wouldn't want to put her
or the calf at risk. I know that Jerseys are small calf sires, so perhaps it
would be ok??

wendy p
www.heritagefarmsnw.com
www.windykcurlies.com
www.healthy-hooves.net





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

gotcha.


--- In dextercattle2@yahoogroups.com, GrandmasDexters@... wrote:
>
> Carol,
>
> They said they were contacting everyone, and then told me they had.   Then
> after I posted something on here, people started asking and atleast another
> one was "found" to be not accurate.
>
> Dan
>
>
> In a message dated 11/11/2009 1:19:30 P.M. Central Standard Time,
> no_reply@yahoogroups.com writes:
>
> What  about having the gen com contact those with results and suggest they
> check  this out (does anyone know if Igenity's sending out replacement
> results  automatically, or if one has to ask for them?)  c.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Carol,

They said they were contacting everyone, and then told me they had.   Then
after I posted something on here, people started asking and atleast another
one was "found" to be not accurate.

Dan


In a message dated 11/11/2009 1:19:30 P.M. Central Standard Time,
no_reply@yahoogroups.com writes:

What  about having the gen com contact those with results and suggest they
check  this out (does anyone know if Igenity's sending out replacement
results  automatically, or if one has to ask for them?)  c.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi dan, you seem to have made an impact!  Thanks.  within 1/2 hour of talking
with the Calgary branch (looks after Canada), I had a replacement copy of my
results on the new form.  The form confirms Igenity is now testing (at least
Dexters) for BOTH forms of pha, as my results came back PF/PFD, indicating free
for the maine version, and free for the dexter version.  I think some of the
early samples sent in didn't always identify the breed (some dexter owners seem
to think there IS only one breed out there--assuming you weren't one of them),
and this may have added to the confusion.

I guess this is a clear example of why absolutely everything must be confirmed
and kosher before a particular lab is officially supported.  Gawd knows you'd
think since the mutations were so different, and appeared to be breed specific,
they wouldn't have used the wrong test, but...I'm impressed how they're
scrambling to make things good now.  I think it's more than just credibility;
they seem to really want to do it right, now they are aware.  I can hear your
frustration.

What about having the gen com contact those with results and suggest they check
this out (does anyone know if Igenity's sending out replacement results
automatically, or if one has to ask for them?)  c.




--- In dextercattle2@yahoogroups.com, GrandmasDexters@... wrote:
>
> Thanks Liz,
>
> The main reason I made it go public is simply that I for instance submitted
>  all my results to the registry immediately.  Now they are marked as
> Non-Carriers of PHA, when in fact two of them when questioned were changed to
> NR.  Then when retested became PHA Carriers. Those animals are in the  system
> as Non-Carriers and have made obligates.  I am in the process of  figuring
> out who needs changed/removed out of the registry etc with the  results.
> But, after the lab told me they had notified the other three  breeders that
had
> results that were not correct, another member inquired about  their results
> and they in fact had 5 animals that were listed as PHAF when  infact they
> are NOT.
>
> My worry is how many are truly wrong?  Will the people that have the  wrong
> results truly be notified and when they are, will the submit the new
> report to the registry and get them fixed?
>
> See the problem?  The worse part is the lab continues to say the  results
> were incomplete.  Incomplete would have been NR, not PHAF when they  didn't
> have a Dexter mutation on a Dexter.
>
> Hope that helps
> Thanks
> Dan
>
>
> In a message dated 11/10/2009 5:18:11 P.M. Central Standard Time,
> elidenfarm@... writes:
>
> I know  that I was waiting for the results, before confirming a sale or
> keeping a boy  intact....so I can empathize at the outrage.  I know that this
> doesn't  help you, with your grievance, but thank you.  Liz
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Thanks Liz,

The main reason I made it go public is simply that I for instance submitted
  all my results to the registry immediately.  Now they are marked as
Non-Carriers of PHA, when in fact two of them when questioned were changed to
NR.  Then when retested became PHA Carriers. Those animals are in the  system
as Non-Carriers and have made obligates.  I am in the process of  figuring
out who needs changed/removed out of the registry etc with the  results.
But, after the lab told me they had notified the other three  breeders that had
results that were not correct, another member inquired about  their results
and they in fact had 5 animals that were listed as PHAF when  infact they
are NOT.

My worry is how many are truly wrong?  Will the people that have the  wrong
results truly be notified and when they are, will the submit the new
report to the registry and get them fixed?

See the problem?  The worse part is the lab continues to say the  results
were incomplete.  Incomplete would have been NR, not PHAF when they  didn't
have a Dexter mutation on a Dexter.

Hope that helps
Thanks
Dan


In a message dated 11/10/2009 5:18:11 P.M. Central Standard Time,
elidenfarm@... writes:

I know  that I was waiting for the results, before confirming a sale or
keeping a boy  intact....so I can empathize at the outrage.  I know that this
doesn't  help you, with your grievance, but thank you.  Liz



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You know Dan, I think you have done all of us a great service.  I think that
your outrage at an obviously flawed process, and talking about it, got the lab
moving on differentiating between the tests and helped people like me, who
tested with them, after.  I know that I was waiting for the results, before
confirming a sale or keeping a boy intact....so I can empathize at the
outrage.  I know that this doesn't help you, with your grievance, but thank
you. Liz

--- On Mon, 11/9/09, GrandmasDexters@... <GrandmasDexters@...> wrote:


From: GrandmasDexters@... <GrandmasDexters@...>
Subject: Re: [Dexter Cattle] Re: PHA results from Igenity - Update
To: dextercattle2@yahoogroups.com
Received: Monday, November 9, 2009, 1:45 PM


 



Hi Carol,

That is great, they have been testing for both from the start, the problem
is they issued reports that stated PHAF and PHAF* and they were no Dexter
Results. They knew from the start that they were testing Dexters and not
getting a Dexter Result. That is completely wrong and frankly, they issued
Falsified Documents by doing so. They may not have done it on purpose, but
they still did it.

Submitting a test result to a breeder, knowing it was a Dexter, and knowing
that their was no Dexter result, is a falsified document, anyway you look
at it.

They keep telling me they were incomplete. Not good enough.

Dan


In a message dated 11/9/2009 12:43:26 P.M. Central Standard Time,
no_reply@yahoogroup s.com writes:

He was upset that things seemed to have gone astray, was very apologetic,
and bent over backward to fix things -- at least for me. If I understood
him correctly, Igenity is testing all animals for both versions, and is
distinguishing between the two types of PHA, so there won't be any mixup in
future.

Thanks for identifying a possible problem; it looks like they've worked to
fix it now. C.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

This is a commercial lab. From the lab's perspective, their job is to run tests
and get accurate results.  It is our job to make sure the tests are relevant.
For instance, a commercial lab will happily run a SNP panel on your cow that
might correlate with everything from calving ease to how many times the cow will
lick a salt block . .  . if she is an Angus.  And since we don't have oodles of
animals with EPD's to compare the results too, we will never know if any of it
works for Dexters. But a commercial lab will take your $45 and run the test and
give you an accurate genetic result.

Both associations should have had better representation at the lab. . . .
someone to ask if our breed was being represented by the PHA test.  Someone to
question if the test would be run for the Dexter mutation, someone to lobby for
a place to put "Dexter" on the form, etc.  This is a good lesson for future
dealings with commercial labs. It looks like Igenity is taking care of it, and
all the old tests have been revised with the new codes. This is really all we
can expect them to do.  Hopefully someone hasn't sold an animal based on it
being negative for the wrong test.

GN

--- In dextercattle2@yahoogroups.com, GrandmasDexters@... wrote:
>
> I have been in constant contact with Igenity regarding my results.
>
> Igenity has been claiming I am making false statements, and it is because
> people are paraphrasing what I have said.  So please read carefully.
>
> I have received results for 4 animals that were PHAF*.
> Only after I called and questioned one of those cows and the fact that
> (according to their key) only 4 results were sent to the breed  association.
> Their key at the time stated that PHAF* meant PHA Free and  the results were
> submitted to the breed association.
>
> They then informed me that the key had been changed and not yet updated and
>  that those 4 animals were actually PHA Free of the Maine Anjou PHA
> mutation and  they didn't get a result for the Dexter PHA mutation, and I
needed to
> submit  more hair to the lab for testing.
>
> I did this, and when I got the results back, of those 4, 2 are Carriers of
> PHA, and 2 are Non-Carriers of PHA even though my initial report said
> PHAF*.
>
> Now - Fast Forward a few weeks.  If that wasn't bad enough, I get an  email
> on 11-3-2009, that said animals that were PHA Free as far back as they
> have been testing, are now No Result.  5 more animals were not correctly
> listed on the reports.  Five Animals that had been listed as PHAF  (NO 
asterix)
> now need retested because they were PHA Free of the Maine Anjou  mutation,
> but they didn't get a clear result on the Dexter mutation.  They  submitted
> the report to me anyway with it stating PHAF.
>
> Now in communications with others, 2 more people have found that they were
> issued results of PHAF, and they are in fact No Result for the Dexter
> Mutation.
>
> I have gotten many things in email back from Igenity including them stating
>  to a fellow breeder that "Rumors" were untrue, and that they are trying to
> clear  up the "Confusion" regarding the results.
>
> Bottom line is they issued me results for my Dexters, for PHA, listed them
> as PHAF (PHA Free), and now all of a sudden are stating that they were
> actually  no result and it was an "Incomplete Result".  They get upset with me
> when I  say that it was "Falsified Documents" but since they knew that I was
> testing a  Dexter for PHA and gave me a report that said it was PHA Free, I
> will let you be  the judge.
>
> Bottom line is if your herd was effected, please email me so we can work
> together to resolve this with the lab.
>
> Dan
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>