dyalogusers : Messages : 5396-5425 of 5425

Paranoia has two meanings but they won't tell me what the other one is!

George

Telephone Nos:
In Spain 96 673 2096
From UK 0844 734 3756

===============================
Windows is a pane in the glass!

===============================

From: Chris Hogan <chris.hogan@...>
To: dyalogusers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, 26 November, 2009 21:03:30
Subject: Re: [dyalogusers] Re: Dyalog Forums Go Live!

{{(2=+⌿0=⍵∘.|⍵)/⍵}⍳⍵} ⍝ This is a test: directly entered into the Yahoo email

 This is your dfn cut & pasted from Thunderbird to Dyalog 12.1:       
 {{(2=+⌿0=⍵∘.|⍵)/⍵}⍳⍵}20

All of the above work for me (though Kai's original didn't, Phil's reply did, very odd) and I'm hardly known for having standard mail configurations, since this is all running of a USB memory drive with no installed permanently email client, but with a Unicode font, of course - yes, even the Unicode font.

There are no issues with google groups in terms of Unicode. comp.lang.apl is an established brand dedicated to APL users as such. If there really is any need to discuss something independently from Dyalog, that's the place to go. As a result the Yahoo group should be closed down asap.

We have the issue the google groups are a cover/imitation of Usenet groups. they are very, very similar, but there are some difference, such as whether one can post from an email or only via the website - although they seem the same, it depends if they were created as Usenet or google groups originally.

And, of course, to echo Dick, just because you are paranoid doesn't mean to say they aren't after you.

None of which indicates my preference, which is vendor run fora (sorry, Catholic boy, can't say "forums" without fearing a smack with a ruler by my Latin Master even 40 years later) are for support, independent ones are for discussion.

So I'm stopped from offering to host such a forum myself, as an interested party.

Chris

#5424

From: "Morten Kromberg" <mkrom@...>
Date: Thu Nov 26, 2009 9:40 pm
Subject: RE: Dyalog Forums Go Live!

morten_kromberg

Offline

Phil,

I think the best forum for this is "APL Language" (one can discuss whether
system functions and root methods are part of the "Language" but I don't (yet)
think this distinction is sufficient to open a new forum.

If in doubt, you can always post to "APL Chat" or, if the topic is not related
to APL directly, simply "Chat".

I have transferred your question to the Forums, you can read the answer here:

http://forums.dyalog.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=48

Morten

-----Original Message-----
From: Phil Last [mailto:phil.last@...]
Sent: 26. november 2009 18:11
To: dyalogusers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [dyalogusers] Dyalog Forums Go Live!

I have a question whose answer is most likely to be supplied by Dyalog
that might be of interest to other users but I can't decide which of the
sixteen boards or forums at http://forums.dyalog.com/ to post to.

So here it is:

Version 12.1 sees the version in APLVersion extended to 4 nodes from 3.
I currently have:

        APLVersion
   Windows  12.0.5  W  Development

        APLVersion
   Windows  12.1.1.3889  W  Development

I know the first (12) and second (0 and 1) nodes are but I can't now
remember whether the third is significant in putting a saved ws out of
reach of older versions.

My reason for wanting to know is that although )SAVE prompts with a
msgbox if I ask 12.1 to save my ws that was last saved by 12.0, ⎕SAVE
doesn't afford me the same consideration.

Will 12.1.2 wss (if such ever exist) be inaccessible from 12.1.1 and is
the answer algorithmic?

I can easily write a condition into my Save function but need to know
what the criterion is.

Phil



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

#5423

From: Chris Hogan <chris.hogan@...>
Date: Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:03 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Dyalog Forums Go Live!

hmw4xtra

Offline

{{(2=+⌿0=⍵∘.|⍵)/⍵}⍳⍵} ⍝ This is a test: directly entered into the Yahoo email


This is your dfn cut & pasted from Thunderbird to Dyalog 12.1:
{{(2=+⌿0=⍵∘.|⍵)/⍵}⍳⍵}20

There are no issues with google groups in terms of Unicode. comp.lang.apl is an established brand dedicated to APL users as such. If there really is any need to discuss something independently from Dyalog, that's the place to go. As a result the Yahoo group should be closed down asap.

#5422

From: Phil Last <phil.last@...>
Date: Thu Nov 26, 2009 5:54 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Dyalog Forums Go Live!

aphillast

Offline

Kai wrote:
> What we certainly should avoid is having several different user groups or
stuff. Traffic is by far not heavy enough. We should rather try to join.
>
> Dick, I doubt it that either Yahoo or Google spend any effort into watching
your contributions. In particular because they are unlikely to understand even
what the topic is, let alone the details. If you want to nurse a bit of
paranoia, start with the government, that gives you something really nasty.
Doesn't matter which country your are living in.
>
> I still think that Yahoo is not the ideal platform for technical reasons. My
browser is correctly configured and still...

Correctly configured or not I've never seen web-mail or forum in a
browser that is anything other than ugly and difficult to use.

> {{(2=+⌿0=⍵∘.|⍵)/⍵}⍳⍵} ⍝ This is a test: directly entered into
the Yahoo email

By which do you mean that dreadful Yahoo web-page with its nasty little
3" x 4" text box in the middle; another equally ugly web-page supplied
by a web-mail client; or a pc based pop3 client such as Thunderbird with
a decent editor?

This is your dfn cut & pasted from Thunderbird to Dyalog 12.1:
        {{(2=+⌿0=⍵∘.|⍵)/⍵}⍳⍵}20
2 3 5 7 11 13 17 19

and back. Perfectly legible at every stage.

> There are no issues with google groups in terms of Unicode. comp.lang.apl is
an established brand dedicated to APL users as such. If there really is any need
to discuss something independently from Dyalog, that's the place to go. As a
result the Yahoo group should be closed down asap.

Indeed there is such a need but not every APL2, APLX, SAX &c. user
wishes to be inundated with Dyalog specific topics such as this.

As I wrote earlier, dyalogusers could be moved. It shouldn't be subsumed.

Phil

#5421

From: Phil Last <phil.last@...>
Date: Thu Nov 26, 2009 5:11 pm
Subject: Re: Dyalog Forums Go Live!

aphillast

Offline

I have a question whose answer is most likely to be supplied by Dyalog
that might be of interest to other users but I can't decide which of the
sixteen boards or forums at http://forums.dyalog.com/ to post to.

So here it is:

Version 12.1 sees the version in APLVersion extended to 4 nodes from 3.
I currently have:

        APLVersion
   Windows  12.0.5  W  Development

        APLVersion
   Windows  12.1.1.3889  W  Development

I know the first (12) and second (0 and 1) nodes are but I can't now
remember whether the third is significant in putting a saved ws out of
reach of older versions.

My reason for wanting to know is that although )SAVE prompts with a
msgbox if I ask 12.1 to save my ws that was last saved by 12.0, ⎕SAVE
doesn't afford me the same consideration.

Will 12.1.2 wss (if such ever exist) be inaccessible from 12.1.1 and is
the answer algorithmic?

I can easily write a condition into my Save function but need to know
what the criterion is.

Phil

#5420

From: "Kai" <kai@...>
Date: Thu Nov 26, 2009 5:17 pm
Subject: Re: Dyalog Forums Go Live!

kai1811

Offline

What we certainly should avoid is having several different user groups or stuff.
Traffic is by far not heavy enough. We should rather try to join.

Dick, I doubt it that either Yahoo or Google spend any effort into watching your
contributions. In particular because they are unlikely to understand even what
the topic is, let alone the details. If you want to nurse a bit of paranoia,
start with the government, that gives you something really nasty. Doesn't matter
which country your are living in.

I still think that Yahoo is not the ideal platform for technical reasons. My
browser is correctly configured and still...

{{(2=+⌿0=⍵∘.|⍵)/⍵}⍳⍵} ⍝ This is a test: directly entered into
the Yahoo email

There are no issues with google groups in terms of Unicode. comp.lang.apl is an
established brand dedicated to APL users as such. If there really is any need to
discuss something independently from Dyalog, that's the place to go. As a result
the Yahoo group should be closed down asap.

Kai

#5419

From: Dick Bowman <dick@...>
Date: Thu Nov 26, 2009 3:01 pm
Subject: Re: Dyalog Forums Go Live!

bertybullfrog

Offline

Phil Last wrote:

[... deleted ...]


I still believe that this place is likely to remain both more conducive to public discussion ABOUT Dyalog rather than conversation WITH Dyalog [... deleted ...]

I'm inclined to agree with Phil here (getting worried about how often I'm doing this). Experience with other vendor-managed forums (nothing to do with APL) makes me wary - no matter how honourable the intentions of forum moderators are.

Perhaps <dyalogusers> should mutate into <aplusers> - I'd like to see more of "this is how it's done over here" (but avoid the fanboy stuff about "what I bought is better than what you bought"). There would clearly be an overlap of purpose with comp.lang.apl - but I sense that UseNet's days (or at least years) may be numbered.

What's the feasibility of setting up an independent "APL Users" forum? Is it a desirable goal? How much ongoing effort would it need? And - for the record - I am not at all happy about having Google (or Yahoo) poke their nose into my every communication.

#5418

From: Phil Last <phil.last@...>
Date: Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:26 pm
Subject: Re: Dyalog Forums Go Live!

aphillast

Offline

Morten Kromberg wrote:
> Dyalog Ltd would like to invite you all to start using the "Dyalog Forums"
> at http://forums.dyalog.com. The new forums will be announced on our web
> page within a few days, but we are announcing them to the Dyalog Users group
> a
> few days in advance, to allow everyone a little extra time to register.
>
> It is our hope is that the Forums will provide a broad and open platform for
> discussions regarding (Dyalog) APL.  We believe that the main benefits of
> the new forums are:
>
> 1)      Ability to handle the input and display of APL characters. We have
> tested the Forum from the most popular Web Browsers and E-Mail clients, and
> so far it has handled the input and display of APL characters reasonably
> well in all scenarios (Microsoft E-Mail Clients don't use the requested font
> but APL code is legible).
>
> 2)      Easy Navigation and Search. The forum is divided into a number of
> sections, allowing easy navigation and search within the contents. A special
> "FAQ" section contains Frequently Asked Questions (and answers).
>
> 3)      Knowledge Base and Sticky Topics. Forum features like "Sticky"
> topics will hopefully allow us to make the Forum more usable as a "knowledge
> base" for new users.
>
> Note: It is not necessary to ENROL in the new Forums in order to READ the
> information posted - you only need to register and create a user id if you
> want to POST new information to the Forums.
>
> Dyalog will monitor the Forums and endeavour to respond to any query that
> has not been answered within roughly 24 hours. Note that the Forums are NOT
> intended to replace our support hotline: If you have a current support
> contract you are always welcome to write to support@.... However, if
> your question begins with "How do I", we suggest that you consider whether
> the answer might be useful to others, and might be a candidate for posting
> on the Forum.
>
> USING E-MAIL CLIENTS
>
> As members of the Yahoo Group, you will notice one fundamental difference
> between the Yahoo Group and the new Forum: Unfortunately it will not be
> possible to POST to the Forums simply by sending an e-mail, as it is with
> the Yahoo group. We appreciate that some users may find this a disadvantage,
> however, this seems to be a key component of the solution to the problem of
> entering APL reliably: By accepting input through the Forum web page, we can
> be sure that we are receiving (and displaying) it correctly.
>
> It is possible to READ the Forums using an e-mail client: When you register
> for the forums you can request a Daily or Weekly DIGEST via e-mail. The
> digest contains links which you can use to jump to the Forum, browse threads
> which are active and reply to posts.
>
> RSS FEEDS
>
> The Forums do not currently support RSS, but we aim to add this feature
> within the first few months.
>
> The FUTURE of the YAHOO GROUP
>
> The Yahoo Group 'dyalogusers' was created - and is "owned" by Stephen
> Taylor. The group was an excellent initiative and has served the Dyalog
> community very well indeed, for many years. We would like to take this
> opportunity to thank Stephen for getting it off the ground! Stephen (and the
> members of the group) will need to consider the future of this group as
> usage of the new Forums unfold.
>
> It is our hope that the new Forums will become the primary vehicle for
> discussions regarding Dyalog APL, and that the Yahoo group can eventually be
> closed down due to inactivity. However, although it is not our intention to
> censor the new Forums except to keep "internet trolls" out, Dyalog
> appreciates that there may still be a role for a truly independent Forum.
> Until further notice, Dyalog therefore propose to make the Yahoo group the
> recipient of a "Daily Digest", so that it is possible to monitor the traffic
> in the new Forums from the old. Thus, you can safely start posting questions
> to the new Forums as soon as you are registered; people who have not yet
> migrated should be able to see all the new questions and answers, and can
> register if they wish to post a question or response.
>
> We look forward to welcoming you all to http://forums.dyalog.com !
>
> Regards,
>
> Morten Kromberg,
> Dyalog Ltd.

A recent thread on this topic in the BAA_London forum include this
posting from me:

> ... that it wouldn't even be a good place for dyalogusers: it doesn't allow
posting by email and Morten has specifically excluded that as a possibility
because one or other email client isn't as reliable as another.
>
> In any case dyalogusers isn't a dyalog group either. When it was set up dyalog
had no forums and the group was, so far as I remember, quite deliberately set up
as independent of dyalog.
>
> It's good to see representatives of dyalog reading and posting to dyalogusers.
But I don't think it would be a good idea to give them editorial control no
matter how beneficent.


I still believe that this place is likely to remain both more conducive
to public discussion ABOUT Dyalog rather than conversation WITH Dyalog
and more friendly to pop3-mail users who have their non-microsoft pop3
client configured correctly for UTF-8 and for whom it has continued to
handle the input, transmission and display of APL characters for the
past three years.

If many people disagree about the platform I'm sure it could easily be
moved to Google groups where both comp.lang.apl and BAA_London are
currently hosted.

Phil

#5417

From: "Morten Kromberg" <mkrom@...>
Date: Thu Nov 26, 2009 7:30 am
Subject: Dyalog Forums Go Live!

morten_kromberg

Offline

Dyalog Ltd would like to invite you all to start using the "Dyalog Forums"
at http://forums.dyalog.com. The new forums will be announced on our web
page within a few days, but we are announcing them to the Dyalog Users group
a
few days in advance, to allow everyone a little extra time to register.

It is our hope is that the Forums will provide a broad and open platform for
discussions regarding (Dyalog) APL.  We believe that the main benefits of
the new forums are:

1)      Ability to handle the input and display of APL characters. We have
tested the Forum from the most popular Web Browsers and E-Mail clients, and
so far it has handled the input and display of APL characters reasonably
well in all scenarios (Microsoft E-Mail Clients don't use the requested font
but APL code is legible).

2)      Easy Navigation and Search. The forum is divided into a number of
sections, allowing easy navigation and search within the contents. A special
"FAQ" section contains Frequently Asked Questions (and answers).

3)      Knowledge Base and Sticky Topics. Forum features like "Sticky"
topics will hopefully allow us to make the Forum more usable as a "knowledge
base" for new users.

Note: It is not necessary to ENROL in the new Forums in order to READ the
information posted - you only need to register and create a user id if you
want to POST new information to the Forums.

Dyalog will monitor the Forums and endeavour to respond to any query that
has not been answered within roughly 24 hours. Note that the Forums are NOT
intended to replace our support hotline: If you have a current support
contract you are always welcome to write to support@.... However, if
your question begins with "How do I", we suggest that you consider whether
the answer might be useful to others, and might be a candidate for posting
on the Forum.

USING E-MAIL CLIENTS

As members of the Yahoo Group, you will notice one fundamental difference
between the Yahoo Group and the new Forum: Unfortunately it will not be
possible to POST to the Forums simply by sending an e-mail, as it is with
the Yahoo group. We appreciate that some users may find this a disadvantage,
however, this seems to be a key component of the solution to the problem of
entering APL reliably: By accepting input through the Forum web page, we can
be sure that we are receiving (and displaying) it correctly.

It is possible to READ the Forums using an e-mail client: When you register
for the forums you can request a Daily or Weekly DIGEST via e-mail. The
digest contains links which you can use to jump to the Forum, browse threads
which are active and reply to posts.

RSS FEEDS

The Forums do not currently support RSS, but we aim to add this feature
within the first few months.

The FUTURE of the YAHOO GROUP

The Yahoo Group 'dyalogusers' was created - and is "owned" by Stephen
Taylor. The group was an excellent initiative and has served the Dyalog
community very well indeed, for many years. We would like to take this
opportunity to thank Stephen for getting it off the ground! Stephen (and the
members of the group) will need to consider the future of this group as
usage of the new Forums unfold.

It is our hope that the new Forums will become the primary vehicle for
discussions regarding Dyalog APL, and that the Yahoo group can eventually be
closed down due to inactivity. However, although it is not our intention to
censor the new Forums except to keep "internet trolls" out, Dyalog
appreciates that there may still be a role for a truly independent Forum.
Until further notice, Dyalog therefore propose to make the Yahoo group the
recipient of a "Daily Digest", so that it is possible to monitor the traffic
in the new Forums from the old. Thus, you can safely start posting questions
to the new Forums as soon as you are registered; people who have not yet
migrated should be able to see all the new questions and answers, and can
register if they wish to post a question or response.

We look forward to welcoming you all to http://forums.dyalog.com !

Regards,

Morten Kromberg,
Dyalog Ltd.

#5416

From: "Jim Goff" <jgoff@...>
Date: Wed Nov 25, 2009 2:06 pm
Subject: RE: what's a user cmd and what's not?

jimgoff2

Offline

[jim] …are all class libraries in the SALT subdirectories accessible through the “]’”(user cmd) interface?

[dan] … cannot be used as user cmds but they can be used in one. Did I confuse the issue or help?
[jim] as an alumnus of APL*PLUS USERCMDS, I can take it from here. Thanks.

#5415

From: Dan Baronet <dbaronet@...>
Date: Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:08 pm
Subject: Re: what's a user cmd and what's not?

dbaronet

Offline

The .dyalog files under the other folders are simply classes available as units,
they are not user cmds. You load them and use them in your code.
A user cmd is a class following specific rules (check Vector V24 #1).
User cmds could be written to use those classes but it hasn't been done yet.
As an analogy, if you are familiar to user cmds under APL+, (then) think of the
classes above as fns/grps saved in ucmd files, they cannot be used as user cmds
but they can be used in one.
Did I confuse the issue or helped?
/D



----- Original Message ----
From: Jim Goff <jgoff@...>
To: dyalogusers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, November 24, 2009 5:55:29 PM
Subject: [dyalogusers] what's a user cmd and what's not?

Are the class libraries the occur beneath the “C:\Program Files\Dyalog\Dyalog
APL 12.1 Unicode\SALT” accessible through the user command  (i.e. “]”)
interface?

For example, what steps are required to access the:

     “Calls” method in the
     “callingTree” class in
     “callingTree.dyalog” in the
      “SALT\Tools\DanB” subdirectory?

Thanks,

J. Goff



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

#5414

From: "Jim Goff" <jgoff@...>
Date: Tue Nov 24, 2009 5:55 pm
Subject: what's a user cmd and what's not?

jimgoff2

Offline

Are the class libraries the occur beneath the “C:\Program Files\Dyalog\Dyalog
APL 12.1 Unicode\SALT” accessible through the user command  (i.e. “]”)
interface?

For example, what steps are required to access the:

	 “Calls” method in the
	 “callingTree” class in
	 “callingTree.dyalog” in the
	  “SALT\Tools\DanB” subdirectory?

Thanks,

J. Goff

#5413

From: "Jim Goff" <jgoff@...>
Date: Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:47 pm
Subject: RE: Re: class of classes vs. namespace of classes

jimgoff2

Offline

Hi Klaus,
I don’t think it’s obvious. I think you’ve just made the thread’s clearest statement of an important design pattern.
My guess is that you arrived at it the same way I did. I took what C# was doing and checked to see whether it worked smoothly in Dyalog. It did, so I’m using it.
There’s another design pattern which, at first glance, works equally well. It is to have one parent Class and then many sibling Classes. It’s almost the same thing and even seems simpler because a Class is the only container being used. I think that C#/ .Net theoreticians may have started with this concept, but ran into theoretical difficulties because OO has so many restrictions on how classes behave. They invented the concept of a .Net Namespaces as a way of fudging the limitations in OO theory.
I was motivated to ask the original question because Dyalog namespaces are not quite the same thing as .Net namespaces. Rather than get tangled in the differences, I was tempted to avoid them. However my experience has been that the Dyalog designers have done a skillful job of blurring the distinction between the two concepts. So far it seems that “namespace of classes” is the way to go.

-J. Goff

From: dyalogusers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dyalogusers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Claus
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 8:09 AM
To: dyalogusers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [dyalogusers] Re: class of classes vs. namespace of classes

Hi

This might have been covered so far - so sorry if I am saying something obvious!

When I build a Class it is always a child of a name-space..

#5412

From: "Claus" <claus_a_madsen@...>
Date: Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:09 pm
Subject: Re: class of classes vs. namespace of classes

claus_a_madsen

Offline

Hi

This might have been covered so far - so sorry if I am saying something obvious!

When I build a Class it is always a child of a name-space. That is I would never
make a class in the root! Furthermore, all utility-functions are in another
name-space with is a child of this name-space.

All methods in this class will now call a function that are reference using ## -
and this works fine.

This technique allows me to build multiple classes using the same name-space.
Also I never need to use the :include as all functions can be accessed directly
from the class by ##.!

Probably kid stuff I have written - but this is what I do!

I have not found any limitations in doing as described above with classes or
name-spaces. Furthermore, making a class a child of a name-space is very much in
mind in what is happening i C#.

My thoughts for now.................

--- In dyalogusers@yahoogroups.com, "psmansour2000" <psmansour2000@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In dyalogusers@yahoogroups.com, "Morten Kromberg" <mkrom@> wrote:
>
> "Of course, INSTANCES usually can NOT use ##, because this is as a reference
to
> the space where they were created, rather than the container within which
> the class is defined."
>
> And this is a problem. The whole point (I think!) of a related set of classes
is to have a method of some instance create and return an instance of some other
class in the object model. An instance must have a way of creating an instance
of some other class in its "group" if you will, without a fully qualified path.
I have a wrapper method "New" which creates the instance at the appropriate
place, so that ## will in fact find the proper space.
>
> I think the problem of "friendly" classes is related to this. It seems there
should be a way for a set of classes to be grouped together such that 1) each
class or instances knows where the others are, and 2) that all of the private
members of an instance of visible from inside instances of other objects in the
group. I'm doing this now by hook and crook.
>

#5411

From: "psmansour2000" <psmansour2000@...>
Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 7:55 pm
Subject: Re: class of classes vs. namespace of classes

psmansour2000

Offline

--- In dyalogusers@yahoogroups.com, "Morten Kromberg" <mkrom@...> wrote:

"Of course, INSTANCES usually can NOT use ##, because this is as a reference to
the space where they were created, rather than the container within which
the class is defined."

And this is a problem. The whole point (I think!) of a related set of classes is
to have a method of some instance create and return an instance of some other
class in the object model. An instance must have a way of creating an instance
of some other class in its "group" if you will, without a fully qualified path.
I have a wrapper method "New" which creates the instance at the appropriate
place, so that ## will in fact find the proper space.

I think the problem of "friendly" classes is related to this. It seems there
should be a way for a set of classes to be grouped together such that 1) each
class or instances knows where the others are, and 2) that all of the private
members of an instance of visible from inside instances of other objects in the
group. I'm doing this now by hook and crook.

#5410

From: "yh giangi quario" <giangiquario@...>
Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:17 am
Subject: mess in WS explorer

giangiquario

Offline

Sometimes the Workspace Explorer (dialog 12.0.5) has a weird behaviour.

This is an example:

===============================

)clear

)copy DFNS tree

'myNS'⎕ns''

myNS.NS←myNS

tree myNS

#.myNS

· NS → #.myNS

===============================

the tree function gives a correct answer

but if you open the WS explorer you’ll find that the tree under myNS has too many descendants.

If we have a more complicated situation, for example a cross reference between different namespaces, the tree function is correct, but the WS explorer shows a kind of mess.

Gianluigi

#5409

From: "yh giangi quario" <giangiquario@...>
Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:38 am
Subject: R: Display Form

giangiquario

Offline

Thank you Phil for your help.

I just added a statement for handling the case where the return is an empty vector.

Unfortunately we cannot avoid the side effects.

f00←{
refs←{
⍺←⍬ ⋄ (⍴,⍺)↓⍺{
1∊⍵=⍺:⍺
⍵.(↑∇∘⍎⍨/⌽(⊂⍺,⍵),↓⎕NL 9)
}⍵
⍝ copied straight from dfns
}
poss←⍵{⍵/⍨(⍕¨⍵)∊⊂⍺}refs #

0∊⍴poss:'' ⍝ ****************************

z←poss.⎕DF ⎕NULL
names←⍕¨poss
z←poss.⎕DF⊂⍵
names
⍝ ⍵ a name, result of ⎕DF
⍝ ← the full path(s) of all refs found to have ⎕DF of ⍵
⍝ beware this will mess with your ws
⍝ Phil Last ⍝ 2009-11-20 18:22
}

Gianluigi

Da: dyalogusers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dyalogusers@yahoogroups.com] Per conto di Phil Last
Inviato: venerdì 20 novembre 2009 19.25
A: dyalogusers@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: Re: R: [dyalogusers] Display Form

yh giangi quario wrote:
>
>
> [Gianluigi]>>> Anyone can provide a tool for obtaining the <[]NL 9 name> of any object whose display form is known?
>
>
> [Phil]>> Any function can set the ⎕DF of any namespace it can see unless
>>> constrained by privacy considerations. So it may be that every
>>> namespace in the workspace has the same ⎕DF!
>
> [Stefano]>That's not the only reason. The <[]NL 9 name> of an object might simply not exist!
>
>
>
> That is consistent with my demands:
>
> a tool for obtaining the VECTOR of <[]NL 9 nameS> of any object whose display form is known.
>
> It may happen that this vector is empty!
>
>
>
> Gianluigi
>
>

In which case so is this!

f00←{
refs←{
⍺←⍬ ⋄ (⍴,⍺)↓⍺{
1∊⍵=⍺:⍺
⍵.(↑∇∘⍎⍨/⌽(⊂⍺,⍵),↓⎕NL 9)
}⍵
⍝ copied straight from dfns
}
poss←⍵{⍵/⍨(⍕¨⍵)∊⊂⍺}refs #
z←poss.⎕DF ⎕NULL
names←⍕¨poss
z←poss.⎕DF⊂⍵
names
⍝ ⍵ a name, result of ⎕DF
⍝ ← the full path(s) of all refs found to have ⎕DF of ⍵
⍝ beware this will mess with your ws
⍝ Phil Last ⍝ 2009-11-20 18:22
}

This could be much shorter if you started with the ref.

#5408

From: "Michael Hughes" <Michael@...>
Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:54 am
Subject: RE: Re: November meeting of BAA-London

mike.hughes59

Offline

I will be there and so yes please J

From: dyalogusers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dyalogusers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dan Baronet
Sent: 23 November 2009 08:49
To: dyalogusers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [dyalogusers] Re: November meeting of BAA-London

Phil, someone asked me last time I was there if I would talk about the new features of 12.1.
Donno if it is still interesting but I could do that too.
/D

----- Original Message ----
From: Phil Last <phil.last@...>
To: dyalogusers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, November 23, 2009 8:28:50 AM
Subject: [dyalogusers] Re: November meeting of BAA-London

Phil Last wrote:
> November meeting of BAA-London
>
> As previously announced to the group on the evening of the previous
> meeting, we are pleased to announce that the next meeting of BAA-London
> will be at the Knights Templar on Friday 27 November 2009 at 14.00.
>
> We have a quiet room (before we arrive) with free secure broadband and a
> good selection of beverages (not free).
>
> http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=51.515313,-0.112031&spn=0.003472,0.010375&t=h&z=17
>
>
> Look at http://groups.google.com/group/baa-london/topics here for more
> discussion regarding on-going projects and agenda for November.
>

Reminder that this month's meeting is coming Friday. Kai Jaeger is
invited to speak on collaborative projects on (?in) the APL wiki.

Other possible and on-going:
Coding standards/style
Direct Development Event?
APL Phrasebook
Dick Bowman has proposed another topic. see thread "Topic for 27
November Meeting?" at http://groups.google.com/group/baa-london/topics

Bring a laptop. Work and play.

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (7)

#5407

From: Dan Baronet <dbaronet@...>
Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:48 am
Subject: Re: Re: November meeting of BAA-London

dbaronet

Offline

Phil, someone asked me last time I was there if I would talk about the new
features of 12.1.
Donno if it is still interesting but I could do that too.
/D

----- Original Message ----
From: Phil Last <phil.last@...>
To: dyalogusers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, November 23, 2009 8:28:50 AM
Subject: [dyalogusers] Re: November meeting of BAA-London

Phil Last wrote:
> November meeting of BAA-London
>
> As previously announced to the group on the evening of the previous
> meeting, we are pleased to announce that the next meeting of BAA-London
> will be at the Knights Templar on Friday 27 November 2009 at 14.00.
>
> We have a quiet room (before we arrive) with free secure broadband and a
> good selection of beverages (not free).
>
>
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=51.515313,-0.112031&spn=0.003472,\
0.010375&t=h&z=17
>
>
> Look at http://groups.google.com/group/baa-london/topics here for more
> discussion regarding on-going projects and agenda for November.
>

Reminder that this month's meeting is coming Friday. Kai Jaeger is
invited to speak on collaborative projects on (?in) the APL wiki.

Other possible and on-going:
Coding standards/style
Direct Development Event?
APL Phrasebook
Dick Bowman has proposed another topic. see thread "Topic for 27
November Meeting?" at http://groups.google.com/group/baa-london/topics

Bring a laptop. Work and play.

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (7)

#5406

From: Phil Last <phil.last@...>
Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:28 am
Subject: Re: November meeting of BAA-London

aphillast

Offline

Phil Last wrote:
> November meeting of BAA-London
>
> As previously announced to the group on the evening of the previous
> meeting, we are pleased to announce that the next meeting of BAA-London
> will be at the Knights Templar on Friday 27 November 2009 at 14.00.
>
> We have a quiet room (before we arrive) with free secure broadband and a
> good selection of beverages (not free).
>
>
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=51.515313,-0.112031&spn=0.003472,\
0.010375&t=h&z=17
>
>
> Look at http://groups.google.com/group/baa-london/topics here for more
> discussion regarding on-going projects and agenda for November.
>

Reminder that this month's meeting is coming Friday. Kai Jaeger is
invited to speak on collaborative projects on (?in) the APL wiki.

Other possible and on-going:
Coding standards/style
Direct Development Event?
APL Phrasebook
Dick Bowman has proposed another topic. see thread "Topic for 27
November Meeting?" at http://groups.google.com/group/baa-london/topics

Bring a laptop. Work and play.

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (7)

#5405

From: "Jim Goff" <jgoff@...>
Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 5:19 pm
Subject: how to read a return code using []CMD - postscript

jimgoff2

Offline

Here’s a postscript for anyone who could make sense of this thread. It contains a few coding tips on handling ExitCode in Dyalog.

The coding segments below should pretty much speak for themselves.

N.B. Some unexpected synchronization issues may arise when the calling and called programs are of different processes (see C# program below). The “runIt.bat” batch program seems to avoid this.

:NameSpace JimDyalog

:Class Program

:Using System

∇ z←Main

:Access Public Shared

:Signature Int32←fn

⎕←'OneTwoThree APL'

z←123

:If 'D' ≡ 4 1⊃#.APLVersion ⋄ →0 ⋄ :End

Environment.Exit z

∇

:EndClass

:EndNamespace

)clear
clear ws

⎕using←',System.dll'
inst←System.Diagnostics.Process.Start ⊂'c:\bin\cSharpReturnCode'

inst.ExitCode

123

inst←System.Diagnostics.Process.Start⊂'c:\bin\returnCode'
inst.ExitCode
123

@rem runIt.bat

@echo off

Start %1 %2

echo %ERRORLEVEL%

using System;

namespace TestReturnCodes

{

class Program

{

static void Main(string[] args)

{

int rc = sendReturnCode();

Console.WriteLine("inprocess ExitCode= " + rc.ToString());

System.Diagnostics.Process inst;

inst = System.Diagnostics.Process.Start(@"C:\bin\cSharpReturnCode");

while (!inst.HasExited) Console.Beep();

Console.WriteLine("c# ExitCode= " + inst.ExitCode.ToString());

inst = System.Diagnostics.Process.Start(@"C:\bin\returnCode");

while (!inst.HasExited) Console.Beep();

Console.WriteLine("apl ExitCode= "+inst.ExitCode.ToString());

Console.ReadLine();

}

static int sendReturnCode()

{

Console.WriteLine("one-two-three");

return 123;

}

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (1)

#5404

From: "Ray Cannon" <ray_cannon@...>
Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:44 am
Subject: RE: how to read a return code using []CMD

ray_cannon_apl

Offline

I have only just read this thread, my apologies for not responding earlier.

Cross platform support to []NA calls is (almost) a nightmare, so I would recommend using dotNET if you can.

Two points.

First :

“Now that Microsoft.Net can be relied on to be available on almost all client machines,”

Although it may be available on many platforms, using it from a Dyalog zero footprint runtime installation

at my current client’s installations is not YET an option.

(Also WinCE does support dotNET, but Pocket APL does not … YET, but I live in hope.)

And:

The original request was for the return (exit) code.

[]NA calls to WinExec and ShellExec return the result of STARTING the Exec, not the return code on exit.

The DLLSP workspace mentioned in the thread does NOT contain any calls to return “exit codes”, other than a function to GetLastError.

I am unsure if this is what is required.

Ray

From: dyalogusers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dyalogusers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Goff
Sent: 21 November 2009 11:58
To: dyalogusers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [dyalogusers] how to read a return code using []CMD

I’m pleased to report that the “ExitCode” property (see below) faithfully returns a numeric 123.
Morten, thanks for saving us from the jaws of more []NA and giving this thread a happy ending.

-J. Goff

rom: dyalogusers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dyalogusers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Morten Kromberg
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 5:36 AM
To: dyalogusers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [dyalogusers] how to read a return code using []CMD

Now that Microsoft.Net can be relied on to be available on almost all client machines,
I would use System.Process.Diagnostics.Start …

⎕using←',system.dll'

notepad←System.Diagnostics.Process.Start⊂'notepad.exe'

notepad.⎕nl -2

BasePriority Container EnableRaisingEvents ExitCode ExitTime Handle HandleCount HasExited Id MachineName MainModule MainWindowHandle MainWindowTitle MaxWorkingSet MinWorkingSet Modules NonpagedSystemMemorySize NonpagedSystemMemorySize64 PagedMemorySize PagedMemorySize64 PagedSystemMemorySize PagedSystemMemorySize64 PeakPagedMemorySize PeakPagedMemorySize64 PeakVirtualMemorySize PeakVirtualMemorySize64 PeakWorkingSet PeakWorkingSet64 PriorityBoostEnabled PriorityClass PrivateMemorySize PrivateMemorySize64 PrivilegedProcessorTime ProcessName ProcessorAffinity Responding SessionId Site StandardError StandardInput StandardOutput StartInfo StartTime SynchronizingObject Threads TotalProcessorTime UserProcessorTime VirtualMemorySize VirtualMemorySize64 WorkingSet WorkingSet64…

#5403

From: "Jim Goff" <jgoff@...>
Date: Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:58 am
Subject: RE: how to read a return code using []CMD

jimgoff2

Offline

I’m pleased to report that the “ExitCode” property (see below) faithfully returns a numeric 123.
Morten, thanks for saving us from the jaws of more []NA and giving this thread a happy ending.

-J. Goff

Now that Microsoft.Net can be relied on to be available on almost all client machines,
I would use System.Process.Diagnostics.Start …

⎕using←',system.dll'

notepad←System.Diagnostics.Process.Start⊂'notepad.exe'

notepad.⎕nl -2

#5402

From: "Morten Kromberg" <mkrom@...>
Date: Sat Nov 21, 2009 10:36 am
Subject: RE: how to read a return code using []CMD

morten_kromberg

Offline

Now that Microsoft.Net can be relied on to be available on almost all client machines, I would use System.Process.Diagnostics.Start – it has more methods and properties than you probably want to know about – but it is all documented at http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/system.diagnostics.process_members.aspx

The simple functionality is fairly obvious (I think):

⎕using←',system.dll'

notepad←System.Diagnostics.Process.Start⊂'notepad.exe'

notepad.⎕nl -3

BeginErrorReadLine BeginOutputReadLine CancelErrorRead CancelOutputRead Close CloseMainWindow CreateObjRef Dispose EnterDebugMode Equals GetCurrentProcess GetHashCode GetLifetimeService GetProcessById GetProcesses GetProcessesByName GetType InitializeLifetimeService Kill LeaveDebugMode ReferenceEquals Refresh Start ToString WaitForExit WaitForInputIdle

notepad.⎕nl -2

notepad.HasExited

notepad.StartTime

21-11-2009 11:33:00

notepad.Responding

(…etc ad nauseam…)

notepad.HasExited

notepad.Kill

notepad.ExitCode

¯1

From: Jim Goff [mailto:jgoff@...]
Sent: 20. november 2009 17:23
To: dyalogusers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [dyalogusers] how to read a return code using []CMD

I happen to have a copy of Ray’s excellent workspace and I it does have a WinExec function (timestamp is Oct. 29 2002). I just tried it in Version 12.1u and then Version 11. It seemed to like the earlier version better, but not well enough to produce the correct result in either case. I’m afraid that too much has changed in the last 7 years. I regret that I’m not more familiar with the intricacies of []NA. Here’s the []NA call being made

'winexec' ⎕NA 'I kernel32.C32|WinExec <0T I'

I’m afraid that as John suggests the issue is more complicated than merely tinkering with this call.

Thanks for all the replies,

Jim

#5401

From: Phil Last <phil.last@...>
Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 6:25 pm
Subject: Re: R: Display Form

aphillast

Offline

yh giangi quario wrote:
>
>
> [Gianluigi]>>> Anyone can provide a tool for obtaining the <[]NL 9  name> of
any  object whose display form is known?
>
>
> [Phil]>> Any function can set the ⎕DF of any namespace it can see unless
>>> constrained by privacy considerations. So it may be that every
>>> namespace in the workspace has the same ⎕DF!
>
> [Stefano]>That's not the only reason. The <[]NL 9 name> of an object might
simply not exist!
>
>
>
> That is consistent with my demands:
>
> a tool for obtaining the VECTOR of <[]NL 9  nameS> of any  object whose
display form is known.
>
> It may happen that this vector is empty!
>
>
>
> Gianluigi
>
>

In which case so is this!

   f00←{
       refs←{
           ⍺←⍬ ⋄ (⍴,⍺)↓⍺{
               1∊⍵=⍺:⍺
               ⍵.(↑∇∘⍎⍨/⌽(⊂⍺,⍵),↓⎕NL 9)
           }⍵
       ⍝ copied straight from dfns
       }
       poss←⍵{⍵/⍨(⍕¨⍵)∊⊂⍺}refs #
       z←poss.⎕DF ⎕NULL
       names←⍕¨poss
       z←poss.⎕DF⊂⍵
       names
⍝ ⍵ a name, result of ⎕DF
⍝ ← the full path(s) of all refs found to have ⎕DF of ⍵
⍝ beware this will mess with your ws
⍝ Phil Last ⍝ 2009-11-20 18:22
   }

This could be much shorter if you started with the ref.

#5400

From: "yh giangi quario" <giangiquario@...>
Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 4:34 pm
Subject: R: Display Form

giangiquario

Offline

[Gianluigi]>>> Anyone can provide a tool for obtaining the <[]NL 9 name> of any object whose display form is known?

[Phil]>> Any function can set the ⎕DF of any namespace it can see unless
>> constrained by privacy considerations. So it may be that every
>> namespace in the workspace has the same ⎕DF!

[Stefano]>That's not the only reason. The <[]NL 9 name> of an object might simply not exist!

That is consistent with my demands:

a tool for obtaining the VECTOR of <[]NL 9 nameS> of any object whose display form is known.

It may happen that this vector is empty!

Gianluigi

#5399

From: "Jim Goff" <jgoff@...>
Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 4:23 pm
Subject: RE: how to read a return code using []CMD

jimgoff2

Offline

'winexec' ⎕NA 'I kernel32.C32|WinExec <0T I'

I’m afraid that as John suggests the issue is more complicated than merely tinkering with this call.

Thanks for all the replies,

Jim

#5398

From: "John Daintree" <johnd@...>
Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 3:25 pm
Subject: RE: how to read a return code using []CMD

john_daintree

Offline

Hi Jim,

Have a word with Ray or Richard about Ray's workspace. The []NA is not just a call to CreateProcess, there's a little more to it than that. I'll happily post something if Ray's workspace isn't suitable.

/john

From: Richard Procter [mailto:rjp@...]
Sent: 20 November 2009 15:10
To: dyalogusers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [dyalogusers] how to read a return code using []CMD

I would highly recommend Ray Cannon's excellent and extensive collection of
[]NA utility functions, <dllsp.dws> which includes items for this case. I
have used Ray's tools on several occasions for both desktop and PocketAPL
applications.

Assuming Ray is willing, it would be helpful if his workspace were posted
at a location such as the following for all:
http://www.dyalog.com/documentation_library.htm

cheers...r

At 2009-11-20 09:41 AM, Jim Goff wrote:
>
>
>[john d] You should probably []NA to CreateProcess or WinExec...
>
>[jim] Thanks. I never liked batch files anyway.
>
>[jim] By chance would the []NA incantation for either of those be simple
>enough to post here?
>
>[jim] THANKS.

#5397

From: "Stefano Lanzavecchia" <stf@...>
Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 3:19 pm
Subject: RE: Display Form

lstefano2001

Offline

> yh giangi quario wrote:
> > I need some suggestions regarding  the exploitation of the []DF
> display form.
> >
> > Anyone can provide a tool for obtaining the <[]NL 9  name> of any
> object whose display form is know?
> >
> >
> >
> > Thank you for your attention.
> >
> > Gianluigi Quario
>
>
> I should assume that in general the answer must be NO!
>
> Any function can set the ⎕DF of any namespace it can see unless
> constrained by privacy considerations. So it may be that every
> namespace in the workspace has the same ⎕DF!

That's not the only reason. The <[]NL 9 name> of an object might simply not
exist!

	 A<-[]NEW SomeClass
	 B<-1 A ('goofy' 'donald duck')
	 )erase A

	 B[2]
  My DF is Known

But B[2] has no []NL 9 name...
--
Stefano

[[All I Ever Learned, I Learned From Anime: ---
   The girl with curly hair is always the seductress.]]

#5396

From: Richard Procter <rjp@...>
Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 3:10 pm
Subject: RE: how to read a return code using []CMD

rjprocter1

Offline

I would highly recommend Ray Cannon's excellent and extensive collection of
[]NA utility functions, <dllsp.dws> which includes items for this case. I
have used Ray's tools on several occasions for both desktop and PocketAPL
applications.

Assuming Ray is willing, it would be helpful if his workspace were posted
at a location such as the following for all:
http://www.dyalog.com/documentation_library.htm

cheers...r

At 2009-11-20 09:41 AM, Jim Goff wrote:
>
>
>[john d] You should probably []NA to CreateProcess or WinExec...
>
>[jim] Thanks. I never liked batch files anyway.
>
>[jim] By chance would the []NA incantation for either of those be simple
>enough to post here?
>
>[jim] THANKS.