jim f
You say below

<I think it's important that we never lose sight of the fact
we are just one part of a larger ecology and while there are
details that distinguish humans from other animals, they are
just that; details.>
That is not so. Humans have exosomatic tools that have enabled
civilization to irreversibly depredate limited natural capital.
Other animals can not do that. With this capability we are
effectively degrading our life support system in an unsustainable
manner.

Denis Frith
Melbourne
Australia

~~~~~~~ EnergyResources Moderator Comment ~~~~~~~~

What do you mean: "Other animals can not (irreversibly depredate limited natural
capital.)

Ever hear of algae in a petri dish?

~~~~~ EnergyResources Moderator Tom Robertson ~~~~~~

jim f <subs@...> wrote: David Mathews writes:
>
> Humans are about a billion times more violent than
> the animals
>
David,

I actually agree with pretty much all you've said in your recent posts, and
while this may seem pedantic I'd just like to pick up on this one line.

Humans *are* animals. I understand that you're merely using a shorthand, and
when you say 'humans are more violent than the animals', you almost
certainly mean 'humans are more violent that the *other* animals'. All the
same, I think it's important that we never lose sight of the fact we are
just one part of a larger ecology and while there are details that
distinguish humans from other animals, they are just that; details.

I'm currently researching and writing a thesis on the nature of free markets
(from a psychoanalytic perspective) and am drawing heavily on the work of
anthropologist and psychologist Gregory Bateson. One of his central ideas is
that modern man has adopted a worldview which places us outside the natural
systems upon which we depend for our very survival (as opposed to being an
integrated part of them), and that this inevitably leads to disastrous
consequences, both for us and for those natural systems.

"[A sustainable civilisation] shall consume unreplaceable natural resources
*only* as a means to facilitate necessary change (as a chrysalis in
metamorphosis must live on its fat). For the rest, the metabolism of the
civilisation must depend upon the energy income which Spaceship Earth
derives from the sun"
- Bateson, Ecology and Flexibility in Urban Civilization, 1970.

All the best,

=====================================
jim fitzsimons (Dublin, Ireland)
www.numero57.net
________________________________________
From: energyresources@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:energyresources@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dmathew1
Sent: 14 May 2008 23:06
To: energyresources@yahoogroups.com
Subject: {Disarmed} [energyresources] Re: Ma nature wreaks havoc

Hello Brent,

The criticism directed at Al Gore is unfounded. When the climate
change catastrophe occurs a whole lot more than 128,000 people are
going to die. Not that this matters to the polluters and the
corporations who profit handsomely from trashing the planet.

As to the statement:

"Some examples of the ecocentric (deifying nature)
mindset follow:
"Hopefully we don't see Parson Dave Matthews in one
of this sort of news item in the future, however he
strikes me as having a very similar mindset."

Animals don't go out of their way to harm humans. In the vast majority
of cases in which attacks do occur the humans are responsible. Even
seemingly violent animals such as the alligator and the rattlesnake
will only attack a human when provoked or startled.

On the other hand, humans commit billions of violent acts against the
animals and Nature each and every day. In the vast majority of cases,
the humans have a profit motive or are violent merely for the sake of
violence.

Humans are also exceptionally violent to each other. You can verify
this easily enough by reading your local newspaper or watching
television. Humans are about a billion times more violent than the
animals and this is the reason why civilization has constructed so many
tools in order to restrain humans from harming each other. These tools
are extremely powerful but not effective enough to prevent thousands of
humans from dying violently every year.

If the humans were only as violent as the animals the vast majority of
humankind's violent acts would never occur, nor would humans possess
all of the tools of violence, nor would humankind possess the tools of
warfare.

***

Where are the peace-loving humans?

Sincerely,

David Mathews
http://www.geocities.com/dmathew1

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