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Ma nature wreaks havoc   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #112501 of 122417 |
Re: Ma nature wreaks havoc

Hello Steven,

> "Now let's try a thought experiment. What if that same tribal rate
were true for modern states? In this purely hypothetical situation, we
would be seeing 165 thousand Canadian deaths every year from warfare
alone, 2.5 million deaths in the European Union, and 6.6 million in
China! Clearly nothing like this is happening."

I think that the author has failed to count a whole lot of violence
in the 20th century and this, along with exponential population
growth, invalidates the comparison and the conclusion.

Exactly how violent were humans in the 20th century?

"Total Deaths During the 20th Century

"Approximately 4,126,000,000 people have died during this century
from all causes. If man-made megadeaths account for 185 million of
them, then one out of every 22 (or 4.5%) human deaths during the 20th
Century have been caused by fellow humans."
( http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat8.htm#Total )

vs.

"Perhaps the most interesting and important result from the first
scientific surveys of this body of evidence is the conclusion that
deaths due to warfare have declined since the prehistoric era, and
not by just a little bit. Lawrence Keeley has estimated that a
typical tribe or chiefdom lost about 0.5% of its population each
year, on average, due directly to warfare. In a 400-person tribe,
that would mean an average loss of two persons per year. Given that
more than 75% of bands, tribes, and chiefdoms were engaged in warfare
of one sort or another at least once every five years, and more than
50% at least once a year, this rate may well be an underestimate."

***

So a tribe losing two people to warfare every year experienced more
violence, percentage wise, than humankind suffered in the 20th
century as 185 million humans died. I don't find this sort
of "progress" very encouraging.

Should humankind continue this sort of "progress" I suspect that our
species will finally attain peacefulness ... once it has gone
extinct.

Sincerely,

David Mathews
http://www.geocities.com/dmathew1









Fri May 16, 2008 2:05 am

dmathew1
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Message #112501 of 122417 |
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... "...Perhaps the most interesting and important result from the first scientific surveys of this body of evidence is the conclusion that deaths due to...
szoraster
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May 15, 2008
11:10 pm

Hello Steven, ... were true for modern states? In this purely hypothetical situation, we would be seeing 165 thousand Canadian deaths every year from warfare ...
dmathew1
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May 16, 2008
2:12 am

... David, I actually agree with pretty much all you've said in your recent posts, and while this may seem pedantic I'd just like to pick up on this one line. ...
jim f
jimbliss23
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May 15, 2008
11:12 pm

jim f You say below <I think it's important that we never lose sight of the fact we are just one part of a larger ecology and while there are details that...
Denis Frith
denisaf2000
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May 16, 2008
2:11 am

Hi Denis, Thanks for your response, though I'm a little confused by the point you're trying to make. When you say "that is not so", are you suggesting that you...
jim f
jimbliss23
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May 16, 2008
10:16 am

Hi jim f To clarify the point I was making, we differ from other animals in that we have used our exosomatic tools to build the mechanisms of civilization....
Denis Frith
denisaf2000
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May 16, 2008
11:40 am

Tom What a foolish comment of yours. You pick a small scale isolated case in an attempt to refute a sound generalization. I thought better of you than that. I...
Denis Frith
denisaf2000
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May 16, 2008
10:17 am

Denis, There is a great deal to said for being aware of the limitations of an over reductionist approach. That is the basis for redressing an imbalance and...
brent_ns
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May 17, 2008
12:21 am

Brent I am curious. You say <It's also possible in trying to emphasize an holistic approach, to end up simply missing the point and end up spouting...
Denis Frith
denisaf2000
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May 17, 2008
12:53 am

~~~~~~~ EnergyResources Moderator Comment ~~~~~~~~~~ Hey Folks: For several months now, I have been mainly involved in moving into a new home and selling the...
Tom Robertson
t1robertson
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May 17, 2008
1:47 am

Tom You call for more understanding of what civilization is doing. I provide understanding of what the day-by-day operations of civilization do to the...
Denis Frith
denisaf2000
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May 17, 2008
11:57 am

Tom it seems to me that often the *things* we can do to slow down our drive as a specie to over shoot don't really work. Example. I ride a bike now. A truck...
Bob Hazard
starly88
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May 17, 2008
8:45 pm

... I didn't say you specifically were Denis Denis I've no doubt that you were a fine scientist in your aeronautic career, however it's seemed to me for a long...
brent ns
brent_ns
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May 17, 2008
11:04 am

Brent You criticize my view for being too holistic. You suggest I that I may have had a religious conversion. I am not going to quibble about your...
Denis Frith
denisaf2000
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May 17, 2008
8:39 pm

... Hi Denis Your sentence immediately above is the basic point of contention and I have exactly the same reservations that Roger Arnold articulated here ...
brent ns
brent_ns
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May 18, 2008
11:56 am

Brent You say <If one maintains that "Civilization Always Entails" "irreversible use of natural capital"... one is effectively saying that "sustainablity" of...
Denis Frith
denisaf2000
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May 18, 2008
1:24 pm

... It's this statement that is a problem Denis, and you keep repeating it ad nauseam You in effect define a necessary condition of civilization as an...
brent ns
brent_ns
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May 18, 2008
4:29 pm

Brent I am mystified by your comment that I define a necessary condition of civilization as an irrerversible drawdown of natural capital. I examine in 'What...
Denis Frith
denisaf2000
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May 19, 2008
2:23 am

Dennis Not all 'civilisations' draw-down limited natural resources - the Australian aborigines (once they achieved stability - and ate all the megafauna)...
hugh spencer
battyhugh
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May 17, 2008
11:10 am

Hugh My comments relate primarily to industrial civilization and I make that point in my writings even though it is not always so qualified. The conceptual...
Denis Frith
denisaf2000
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May 17, 2008
8:40 pm

Denis perhaps the comment was too simplistic but the overview is true. Animals including humans if given the right environment, that is a lack of predation...
Bob Hazard
starly88
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May 17, 2008
11:02 am

Bob I have simply commented on what human society has done to the ecosystem using the tools they have devised. No other animal has devised something like a...
Denis Frith
denisaf2000
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May 17, 2008
11:54 am

I think we agree for the most part Denis. I see humans as all components of nature, evolving. We may be evolving to higher order thinking, or we may be...
Bob Hazard
starly88
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May 17, 2008
8:47 pm

It's a nasty subject but don't forget infanticide. The rate was very high in Great Britain through the nineteenth century, and even some years into the...
Abernethy, Virginia D...
virginia.abernethy@...
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May 16, 2008
10:27 pm

McKitrick is missing some significant factors here. He looks at various pollutants in wealthy countries and sees they have actually gone down, but neglects to...
Arthur Noll
arthurcnoll
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May 17, 2008
8:47 pm
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