Retitle this story: The US and China Together on
Improving Global Energy Efficiency....and you would
have a more accurate headline.
This is actually a story of working together to improve
energy efficiency first and the others next. This agreement
will surely anger anti globalists, but represents another
and natural recognition of the fact that we are global
community with common interests in energy use,
common interests in the global movement of pollution,
and a shared global banking structure and shared business
structures.
...Again, though not mentioned, as usual in any headlines,
this agreement is a huge leap forward for energy
efficiency (just don't tell anyone).

--- On Tue, 11/17/09, smithgordon46 <smithgordon46@...> wrote:


From: smithgordon46 <smithgordon46@...>
Subject: [energyresources] The US and China Together on Renewable Energy,
Electric Vehicles and Clean Coal
To: energyresources@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, November 17, 2009, 9:31 AM


 



Beijing, China – President Barack Obama and President Hu Jintao announced a
far-reaching package of measures to strengthen cooperation between the United
States and China on clean energy. Please see the attached fact sheets for
additional details on each of the U.S-China clean energy announcements.

http://www.mygreene ducation. com/the-us- and-china- come-together-
on-renewable- energy-electric- vehicles- and-clean- coal/











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

They know that as well as you do. They are simply aiming to make as
much money as possible before the system goes down. It is what
companies are programmed to do. In this case, at this juncture, their
measures are becoming more and more short term.

Robert R.




On 17.11.2009, at 20:12, Frank Holland wrote:

> When will we all wake up to the fact that private transport using cars
> is going to die out?
>
> Frank
> 53.22N 2.07W
>
> On Tue, 2009-11-17 at 17:23 +0000, usahiker wrote:
> >
> > EV & Hybrid News: Cadillac Reportedly to Build Electric Car
> >
> > Cadillac Reportedly to Build Electric Car
> > Nissan Takes Leaf Electric Car on Tour
> > Why China Is An Ideal Market for Plug-In Electric Cars
> > Myers Motors marketing new two-passenger electric car
> > Citroen Unveils Electric Car For 2010 Production
> > Ultracapacitors: Maybe Not Miracle Workers, but Great EV Power
> > Potential
> > Zenn Electric cars reaching Cayman roads
> > Who Killed the Electric Car Part 2 - Chrysler drops three electric
> > vehicles
> >
> > For these stories and a video of the Myers NmG Electric Car, Click
> > Here
> > <http://electricandhybridcars.com/index.php/pages/electriccarnews.html
> >
> --
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Never ever. Private cars  are to (North)Americans (and more an more Europeans)
what the rifle was to Charlton Heston: an extension to his arm (or to their
legs, in the case of the cars), only to be deprived or depossesed of them over
their dead bodies...

Pedro from Madrid

--- In energyresources@yahoogroups.com, Frank Holland <frankholland3@...> wrote:
>
> When will we all wake up to the fact that private transport using cars
> is going to die out?
>
>
> Frank
> 53.22N 2.07W
>
> On Tue, 2009-11-17 at 17:23 +0000, usahiker wrote:
> >
> > EV & Hybrid News: Cadillac Reportedly to Build Electric Car
> >
> > Cadillac Reportedly to Build Electric Car
> > Nissan Takes Leaf Electric Car on Tour
> > Why China Is An Ideal Market for Plug-In Electric Cars
> > Myers Motors marketing new two-passenger electric car
> > Citroen Unveils Electric Car For 2010 Production
> > Ultracapacitors: Maybe Not Miracle Workers, but Great EV Power
> > Potential
> > Zenn Electric cars reaching Cayman roads
> > Who Killed the Electric Car Part 2 - Chrysler drops three electric
> > vehicles
> >
> > For these stories and a video of the Myers NmG Electric Car, Click
> > Here
> > <http://electricandhybridcars.com/index.php/pages/electriccarnews.html>
> --
>

Er, why not ask these questions?  The engineers that design such things take all
this into account, after all. :)

Indeed, Roger just ran a set of numbers howing 57 percent, end to end.  Not too
shabby, with coal at 30-40, nuclear at 33-35, and even gas-fired combined-cycle
gas turbines getting no higher than 50-60.

Still, solar power satellites are just so much pie-in-the-sky, since we have no
heavy-lift launch capacity worth a damn.

(sigh)


>--- In energyresources@yahoogroups.com, Frank Holland ><frankholland3@...>
wrote:
>
> On Sun, 2009-11-15 at 13:49 -0800, Eric Pfeiffer wrote:
> >
> > Anyone help me here?....
> > Take 250megawatts of electricity, beam it 22,000 miles to a
> > receiving site. What is the amount of electricity reaching
> > the receiving site excluding issues like dust, and atmospheric
> > gas absorbtion if any?
>
> And the conversion at each end, electricity to some radiation and >the
> radiation back to electricity.
>
> I have a sneaking feeling, Eric, that we are not supposed to ask >these
> sort of questions!!
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Frank
> 53.22N 2.07W
>

If you put a halter and lead line on a foal or calf and teach it to follow where
that line pulls, you can end up with a mature animal as strong as ten men, but a
child can lead it around. People are born into a situation where the rich have
control and it just seems normal to both sides.

Revolts do certainly happen, but the poor generally don't have the education or
food supply or weapons to organize properly and maintain a struggle. They are
easily divided and confused- do you suck up to the rich and try to have a
position with them, fight for them, or fight against them?  Do you aspire to be
rich, or richer, yourself, and so therefore you really aren't at odds with the
system of having such disparities of wealth, just your position in it? The rich
have been using divide and conquer for a long time to help maintain their
position against challenges.

It is easy to see reasons why such conditions of rich living right next to poor
exist, apparently peacefully.  Not just Bombay, I have seen this in N.America
and don't doubt it exists all over.

But is this a healthy, stable condition?

  A person who has had a chronic disease from childhood may have accepted it as
normal, but a doctor who understands healthier possibilities wouldn't accept it
as normal. But if the treatment involves radically different ways of behaving
compared to what the person has accepted as normal, there can be a struggle to
accept such change. Many will accept and want to keep the reality they know,
regardless of how painful and threatening to their future it may be, rather than
change into the unknown, because they find that more frightening.  They won't
trust the logic about what should work to make their condition better.

  So is this condition of rich and poor a normal one or is it like a chronic
disease?  Human beings are social creatures,  it is easy for anyone to do
scientific experiments with themselves that confirm we only survive by teamwork.
And it doesn't make an effective team to have one member of a team given more
resources than he or she can possibly use while the rest struggle to survive.
So, I'd say this huge differences of rich and poor was more like a chronic
disease, not a normal condition. Humans all over have gotten into this situation
but it wasn't the way we lived for most of our existence.

But of course, the problems go deeper than that.  We never consciously
controlled our population numbers in the past, either, but with what we have
learned about keeping people alive, this is logically a requirement now, too.

People here know my prescription for these problems.  Like the chronically sick
person terrified of change, these prescriptions are not discussed.  This sort of
denial can sometimes change when the chronic condition, because of its
weaknesses, allows acute episodes of disease or injury to occur. Obviously these
events are more painful and frightening than the chronic condition, and with
some can be enough to push change into the frightening unknown. Similar things
might happen for society and for those considering its organization. Like this
current economic situation, which is an acute episode of pain for a lot of
people- (myself included, I haven't worked significantly in over a year and
things are getting to a serious state).  This current economic situation makes
some people think more carefully, but there is still obviously great fear of
actually challenging the status quo.  When you point out the peacefully
coexistence of rich and poor, Robin, this is like telling yourself-and us, of
course, that there is no trouble with this chronic disease, the fears of others
about it exploding are exaggerated.  But again, it is, quite logically, a
chronic disease, not a normal healthy state.  And as such it does have the
potential to dissolve quite rapidly into chaos.

   With individuals, the person in denial of the need for change might not break
their denial even with acute episodes of problems, and could die.  While another
person would have the mental ability to accept the need for deep change, and do
it, and if the change is indeed logical, they may get better health, a more
stable existence.  With social problems, this variablity of desire for change
can lead to severe conflicts in society, and between societies, exacerbating the
original problems.  There is the potential for new social organizations
splitting off, something that can't happen with individuals.

Quite obviously, the rich are far more likely to see the status quo as ok and
the poor are not. The rich don't feel the acute problems that come along as
deeply as the poor do.  So, as was observed quite some time ago, "it is easier
for a camel to go through a small human door, than for a rich man to enter the
kingdom of heaven.".  If the "kingdom of heaven", is simply a much healthier,
more stable social arrangement, then indeed, the rich have little incentive to
go there, because they already feel like things are ok. It is the same
observation that Jared Diamond makes that a common problem with societies that
collapsed, was that the wealthy classes, producing and most influencing leaders,
were insulated from problems and so did not make appropriate decisions in time
to avoid collapse.   But as I wrote at the top here, many of the poor are on
auto pilot as to what reality is, and are divided about whether it is better to
find a job with the rich or fight with them, and they often merely wish to
change their position in a society of rich and poor, not to change the system
away from this chronic disease. They are also generally not interested in the
idea of social control of reproduction.  All of which keep the disease a chronic
one.

   But it is very predictable that it will eventually have problems that get so
severe that the denial breaks for a few.  It is possible that some who are rich
are true psychopaths, and no amount of suffering by others really moves them. 
But others who are rich, I think are simply like drug addicts, their minds taken
over by attractions to wealth, but at the same time struggling with concern for
others, concern for the rest of nature, which is also getting trampled with this
system.  Mentally torn.  They may make excuses for their behavior for a long
time, but some might eventually give in and accept that the system really
doesn't work. What degree of suffering and logical argument it takes to achieve
that, I don't know, as it certainly hasn't happened yet, and posts like this and
some others here indicate the same kind of denial still in place here, and with
people more aware than most.   I wonder if I will survive to see it happen, as
my personal situation unravels.

  Arthur Noll
Sacramento, Ca



--- In energyresources@yahoogroups.com, "drrjabraham" <drrjabraham@...> wrote:
>
> Bombay should make one pause for thought. The poor live next to the super
rich. By the thesis here Bombay should be burning long ago
>
> No dictatorship can hide the rich from the poor.
>
> Robin Abraham
>
> --- In energyresources@yahoogroups.com, "Abernethy, Virginia Deane"
<virginia.abernethy@> wrote:
> >
> > Butting into the discussion below, sociologists suggest that people only get
unhappy when a "reference group" is doing better than they are. A village or
country may be extremely poor but the population is not restive or resentful so
long as some known village with which they compare themselves is not better off.
> >
> > Dictatorships are entirely rationale in attempting to keep their population
from learning that others in the world are better off. Information creates
unhappiness.  Comparing oneself to a more prosperous reference group is a prime
source of dissatisfaction.
> > V.
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > From: energyresources@yahoogroups.com on behalf of hugh spencer
> > Sent: Sun 11/15/2009 12:31 PM
> > To: energyresources@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [energyresources] insanity of growth
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Robin, Tom
> >
> > From what little I have read .. it seems that Kerala Province is one of the
> > exceptions to the rule in India. I haven't experienced the gun-driven
> > society directly - but I have seen its results in Mexico inland from
> > Mazatlan - and that was 25 years ago..
> >
> > We in Australia are lucky - as we are a reasonably "British" society - and
> > relatively few guns (but I assure you - they are out there - the Gov't
> > reaction to Port Arthur - meant that a lot of guns have been buried -
> > especially in country areas - in nice clean PVC drainage tubes, well
> > sealed).
> >
> > Yes - the juxtaposition of poverty and wealth doesn't help - but then,in
> > the past we didn't have access to the fairly overwhelming amount of
> > firepower that exists now .. an AK47 and a musket don't really compare.
> > There's a rather interesting image in the latest Time mag of a Chinese
> > developer, talking on a cell phone, with his black (African) body-guard,
> > holding an umbrella over hime and toting an automatic rifle... speaks
> > volumes..
> >
> > H
> >
> > >You are being very selective in your application of social trends. For
> > >every village that is experiencing violence there are many which are
> > >peaceful and quiet in spite of there being poverty and hunger.
> > >Highlighting just the negatives may sound very macho but the realities are
> > >always more complicated and mixed. There are many places in the world
> > >where you would be surprised why the place is not blowing up. If you only
> > >had energy resources as your source of information for the outer world you
> > >would expect some 75% of the world as it exists today to go into chaos.
> > >Most writers here write from their reasonably well endowed homes in the
> > >west and imagine what it would be like to be poor. But for around 75 % of
> > >the world population it is an everyday reality and they don't need to
> > >imagine it. If the world is reasonably peaceful in spite of so much
> > >poverty in midst of so much wealth, then it stands to reason that humans
> > >may not be as violent and trigger happy as some ER list members!
> > > would have us believe.
> > >
> > >regards
> > >Robin Abraham
> > >Kerala, India
> > >
> > >~~~~~~~~~EnergyResources Moderator Comment ~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > >Right.
> > >
> > >And the trick is for all of us, or at least most of us, to come to know
> > >what is really possible and learn to live secure and satisfying lives
> > >accordingly.
> > >
> > ~~~~~~~~
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

When will we all wake up to the fact that private transport using cars
is going to die out?


Frank
53.22N 2.07W

On Tue, 2009-11-17 at 17:23 +0000, usahiker wrote:
>
> EV & Hybrid News: Cadillac Reportedly to Build Electric Car
>
> Cadillac Reportedly to Build Electric Car
> Nissan Takes Leaf Electric Car on Tour
> Why China Is An Ideal Market for Plug-In Electric Cars
> Myers Motors marketing new two-passenger electric car
> Citroen Unveils Electric Car For 2010 Production
> Ultracapacitors: Maybe Not Miracle Workers, but Great EV Power
> Potential
> Zenn Electric cars reaching Cayman roads
> Who Killed the Electric Car Part 2 - Chrysler drops three electric
> vehicles
>
> For these stories and a video of the Myers NmG Electric Car, Click
> Here
> <http://electricandhybridcars.com/index.php/pages/electriccarnews.html>
--

China understood the talks to mean, Don't meddle in each other's
affairs.

V.



________________________________

From: energyresources@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:energyresources@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of smithgordon46
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 9:32 AM
To: energyresources@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [energyresources] The US and China Together on Renewable
Energy, Electric Vehicles and Clean Coal





Beijing, China - President Barack Obama and President Hu Jintao
announced a far-reaching package of measures to strengthen cooperation
between the United States and China on clean energy. Please see the
attached fact sheets for additional details on each of the U.S-China
clean energy announcements.

http://www.mygreeneducation.com/the-us-and-china-come-together-on-renewa
ble-energy-electric-vehicles-and-clean-coal/
<http://www.mygreeneducation.com/the-us-and-china-come-together-on-renew
able-energy-electric-vehicles-and-clean-coal/>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

EV & Hybrid News: Cadillac Reportedly to Build Electric Car

Cadillac Reportedly to Build Electric Car
Nissan Takes Leaf Electric Car on Tour
Why China Is An Ideal Market for Plug-In Electric Cars
Myers Motors marketing new two-passenger electric car
Citroen Unveils Electric Car For 2010 Production
Ultracapacitors: Maybe Not Miracle Workers, but Great EV Power Potential
Zenn Electric cars reaching Cayman roads
Who Killed the Electric Car Part 2 - Chrysler drops three electric
vehicles

For these stories and a video of the Myers NmG Electric Car, Click Here
   <http://electricandhybridcars.com/index.php/pages/electriccarnews.html>
Cheers,
Susie



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Tue, 2009-11-17 at 07:28 +0000, scottsworth wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In energyresources@yahoogroups.com, Frank Holland
> <frankholland3@...> wrote:
> >
> > Now that is the longest justification I have seen for Eat Drink and
> be
> > Merry for Tomorrow we die!
> >
> >
> > Frank
> > 53.22N 2.07W
> >
>
> Yes, end of the world existentialism. Like the band playing as the
> Titanic went down. It stems from my years working on military
> platforms during the cold war. But if you prefer the simple 'one
> potato two potato' version, here is my very own poem:
>
> Seven billion, eight billion, nine billion, ten,
> eleven billion, twelve billion, extinct about then!

Yes, but the band was British, stiff upper lip and all that!!

Seriously though, Limits to Growth puts the start of collapse at about
2050, when the population will be about 9 billion, so we need to alter
your poem slightly, how about

Seven billion, eight billion, nine billion, when
the start of extinction begins about then!


--

Frank
53.22N 2.07W

A longtime member of the http://populationinstituteofcanada.ca/ forwards pieces
and a comment titled

  Zurich Green MPs Call for Immigration Reduction.

Below is an encouraging article (in French). Two young Swiss greens are starting
to squawk about immigration, making the connection to environmental degradation
in a TV interview. Apparently the interviewer, described by the article writer
as a paleomarxist who accidentally strayed into ecology, thought she was going
to get the usual right thinking PC welcome-the-stranger and celebrate diversity
line to her questions and she got an earful of ecological reality, which
infuriated her. The author starts off by saying, in his second sentence, "greens
concerned with ecology, it's a miracle."

The book reference is to the Fraser Institute's [in British Columbia] anthology
of the presentations given at their 2008 meeting.  M.

Hi M.

did you see what those 2 green MPs from Zurich are saying?

Maybe I'm just me, but it just strikes me how, when it comes from Greens and is
based on the pop. growth environment/resource relationship, the opposition to
mass immigration carries a lot more weight than when it's based on cultural
and/or traditionnal-economics arguments.

Notice the picture in the second link how young one of the 2 Green MP is.

http://ch.novopress.info/4300/immigration-et-demographie-le-tabou-va-t-il-sauter\
/

http://info.rsr.ch/fr/points-forts/Debat_l_immigration_nocive_pour_l_environneme\
nt.html?siteSect=2011&sid=11407288&cKey=1256580905000

Also

did you see this book from the Fraser Institute?

Largely opposed to mass immigration, the book is a series of texts.

Good but the very few mentions of the impacts on the environment and resources
is a weakness IMO.

I borrowed the book from the Finance library.  I've learned so far that annual
emigration from Canada is 45,000 a yearon average.  So a balanced policy, to
preserve the environment and resources, would call for a policy of 45,000 a
year.
It's a better sell that to advocate 0 immigration I would think.

http://www.fraserinstitute.org/researchandpublications/publications/6939.aspx
________________________________

Pour un temps limité, avant le 3 janvier, les étudiants des établissements
collégiaux et universitaires canadiens admissibles peuvent passer à Windows 7
pour aussi peu que 39,99 $. Ne ratez pas cette occasion! Achetez-le maintenant.
<http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691824>
________________________________

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.68/2507 - Release Date: 11/16/09
19:53:00

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Beijing, China – President Barack Obama and President Hu Jintao announced a
far-reaching package of measures to strengthen cooperation between the United
States and China on clean energy. Please see the attached fact sheets for
additional details on each of the U.S-China clean energy announcements.

http://www.mygreeneducation.com/the-us-and-china-come-together-on-renewable-ener\
gy-electric-vehicles-and-clean-coal/

--- In energyresources@yahoogroups.com, Frank Holland <frankholland3@...> wrote:
>
> Now that is the longest justification I have seen for Eat Drink and be
> Merry for Tomorrow we die!
>
>
> Frank
> 53.22N 2.07W
>

Yes, end of the world existentialism. Like the band playing as the Titanic went
down. It stems from my years working on military platforms during the cold war.
But if you prefer the simple 'one potato two potato' version, here is my very
own poem:

Seven billion, eight billion, nine billion, ten,
eleven billion, twelve billion, extinct about then!

>Data lacking in Russian claim. Data not presented regarding
>a change in sun's long term output. Statement started but
>not completed.

>...Ocean surface temps surged this spring and summer,
>offsetting drops of the past few years. I have been presenting
>that graphically since late this spring as ocean anomalies.

>...We have no idea if the temp surge of the past decades
>has surged. I know of no data to support or refute an end
>to the temp surge looking forward over the next two decades.

>...Atmospheric chemistry clearly shows a tendency
>toward warming. Refuting that chemical tendency¬Ýrequires presentation
>of physics or chemistry to demonstrate offsetting factors
>to that warming chemistry.

>...I eagerly await that but havent run across any yet. I also
>eagerly await NOAA data from it's global atmoshperic
>data assembly of atmoshperic warming gasses to be
>available probably in 2011. It should be interesting to
>follow the distribution of gasses at many altitudes across
>the globe to see if mechanisms exist to break up the gasses
>unknown or if the gasses are pooling in locations in the
>atmosphere for reasons not understood.

>Challenges to theory (what theory??) are coming from good measurements.

Thanks Eric

what a nuisance  - (from the deniers/ice-ageists point of view)

H

Investment is a common means of trying to increase financial wealth. It can be
based on sound principles, in the opinion of society, because it is supporting
systems that use natural material capital to provide the needs of society and
its infrastructure for operation and maintenance. It can also be based on
unsound principles. The upsurge in financial games this century embraces the
concept of creating financial wealth out of thin air.
Divestment entails accounting for the decrease in the value of assets. The
principle assets of society are the components of natural capital used in the
operation and maintenance of its systems. This capital is being irreversibly
used up. The assets are decreasing in value. Natural wealth is crumbling.
A rational society would be accounting for this divestment. However, modern
society, especially in the developed and developing countries, has not acquired
that wisdom so is now having to cope with a powering down under the control of
ecological forces accentuated by the ignorance of its 'leaders'.

Denis Frith




      
________________________________________________________________________________\
__
Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7.
Enter now: http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Data lacking in Russian claim. Data not presented regarding
a change in sun's long term output. Statement started but
not completed.
...Ocean surface temps surged this spring and summer,
offsetting drops of the past few years.  I have been presenting
that graphically since late this spring as ocean anomalies.
...We have no idea if the temp surge of the past decades
has surged. I know of no data to support or refute an end
to the temp surge looking forward over the next two decades.
...Atmospheric chemistry clearly shows a tendency
toward warming. Refuting that chemical tendency requires presentation
of physics or chemistry to demonstrate offsetting factors
to that warming chemistry.
...I eagerly await that but havent run across any yet. I also
eagerly await NOAA data from it's global atmoshperic
data assembly of atmoshperic warming gasses to be
availalble probably in 2011. It should be interesting to
follow the distribution of gasses at many altitudes across
the globe to see if mechanisms exist to break up the gasses
unknown or if the gasses are pooling in locations in the
atmosphere for reasons not understood.  Challenges to
theory are coming from good measurements.

--- On Mon, 11/16/09, hugh spencer <Hugh@...> wrote:


From: hugh spencer <Hugh@...>
Subject: Re: [energyresources] climate change
To: energyresources@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, November 16, 2009, 3:22 PM


 



The crazy thing is that for the northern hemisphere - there could be a
localised chill if the ocean conveyor currents stop or slow... we'll cook.
Gotta keep the balance..

H

denialist books outsell AGW books at Amazon...

>http://www.climated epot.com/ a/3515/Prominent -Russian- Scientist- We-should-
fear-a
>-deep-temperature- drop--not- catastrophic- global-warming
>
>
>
>Prominent Russian Scientist: 'We should fear a deep temperature drop --
>not catastrophic global warming'
>
>'Warming had a natural origin...CO2 is 'not guilty'
>
>Tuesday, October 27, 2009By Marc Morano
><http://www.climated epot.com/ contact.asp> - Climate Depot
><http://www.climated epot.com>
>
>Reprint of new scientific paper: (Full pdf paper available here
><http://www.gao. spb.ru/english/ astrometr/ abduss_nkj_ 2009.pdf> .)
>
>THE SUN DEFINES THE CLIMATE
>
>(Habibullo Abdussamatov, Dr. Sc. - Head of Space research laboratory of
>the Pulkovo Observatory, Head of the Russian/Ukrainian joint project
>Astrometria - (translated from Russian by Lucy Hancock) Dr. Abdussamatov
>is featured on page 140 of the 2009 U.S. Senate Report of More Than 700
>Dissenting Scientists Over Man-Made Global Warming
><http://www.epw. senate.gov/ public/index. cfm?FuseAction= Minority.
Blogs&ContentRe
>cord_id=10fe77b0- 802a-23ad- 4df1-fc38ed4f85e 3> . Also see "Related
>Links" below.)
>
>Key Excerpts: Observations of the Sun show that as for the increase in
>temperature, carbon dioxide is "not guilty" and as for what lies ahead
>in the upcoming decades, it is not catastrophic warming, but a global,
>and very prolonged, temperature drop. [...] Over the past decade, global
>temperature on the Earth has not increased; global warming has ceased,
>and already there are signs of the future deep temperature drop. [...]
>It follows that warming had a natural origin, the contribution of CO2 to
>it was insignificant, anthropogenic increase in the concentration of
>carbon dioxide does not serve as an explanation for it, and in the
>foreseeable future CO2 will not be able to cause catastrophic warming.
>The so-called greenhouse effect will not avert the onset of the next
>deep temperature drop, the 19th in the last 7500 years, which without
>fail follows after natural warming. [...] We should fear a deep
>temperature drop -- not catastrophic global warming. Humanity must
>survive the serious economic, social, demographic and political
>consequences of a global temperature drop, which will directly affect
>the national interests of almost all countries and more than 80% of the
>population of the Earth. A deep temperature drop is a considerably
>greater threat to humanity than warming. However, a reliable forecast of
>the time of the onset and of the depth of the global temperature drop
>will make it possible to adjust in advance the economic activity of
>humanity, to considerably weaken the crisis.
>
>Excerpts: Experts of the United Nations in regular reports publish data
>said to show that the Earth is approaching a catastrophic global
>warming, caused by increasing emissions of carbon dioxide to the
>atmosphere. However, observations of the Sun show that as for the
>increase in temperature, carbon dioxide is "not guilty" and as for what
>lies ahead in the upcoming decades, it is not catastrophic warming, but
>a global, and very prolonged, temperature drop.
>
>Life on earth completely depends on solar radiation, the ultimate source
>of energy for natural processes. For a long time it was thought that the
>luminosity of the Sun never changes, and for this reason the quantity of
>solar energy received per second over one square meter above the
>atmosphere at the distance of the Earth from the Sun (149 597 892 km),
>was named the solar constant.
>
>Until 1978, precise measurements of the value of the total solar
>irradiance (TSI) were not available. But according to indirect data,
>namely the established major climate variations of the Earth in recent
>millennia, one must doubt the invariance of its value.
>
>In the middle of the nineteenth century, German and Swiss astronomers
>Heinrich Schwabe and Rudolf Wolf established that the number of spots on
>the surface of the Sun periodically changes, diminishing from a maximum
>to a minimum, and then growing again, over a time frame on the order of
>11 years. Wolf introduced an index ("W") of the relative number of
>sunspots, computed as the sum of 10 times number of sunspot groups plus
>the total number of spots in all groups. This number has been regularly
>measured since 1849. Drawing on the work of professional astronomers and
>the observations of amateurs (which are of uncertain reliability) Wolf
>worked out a reconstruction of monthly values from 1749 as well as
>annual values from 1700. Today, the reconstruction of this time series
>stretches back to 1611. It has an eleven-year cycle of recurrence as
>well as other cycles related to onset and development of individual
>sunspot groups: changes in the fraction of the solar surface occupied by
>faculae, the frequency of prominences, and other phenomena in the solar
>chromosphere and corona.
>
>Analyzing the long record of sunspot numbers, the English astronomer
>Walter Maunder in 1893 came to the conclusion that from 1645 to 1715
>sunspots had been generally absent. Over the thirty-year period of the
>Maunder Minimum, astronomers of the time counted only about 50 spots.
>Usually, over that length of time, about 50,000 sunspots would appear.
>Today, it has been established that such minima have repeatedly occurred
>in the past. It is also known that the Maunder Minimum accompanied the
>coldest phase of a global temperature dip, physically measured in Europe
>and other regions, the most severe such dip for several millennia, which
>stretched from the fourteenth to the nineteenth centuries (now known as
>the Little Ice Age).
>
>The search for a relationship between large climate variations and
>phenomena observed in the Sun led to an interest in finding a connection
>between periods of change in the terrestrial climate and corresponding
>significant changes in the level of observed solar activity, because the
>sunspot number is the only index that has been measured over a long
>period of time.
>
>Determinative role of the Sun in variations in the climate of the Earth
>
>The Earth, after receiving and storing over the twentieth century an
>anomalously large amount of heat energy, from the 1990's began to return
>it gradually. The upper layers of the world ocean, completely
>unexpectedly to climatologists, began to cool in 2003. The heat
>accumulated by them unfortunately now is running out.
>
>Over the past decade, global temperature on the Earth has not increased;
>global warming has ceased, and already there are signs of the future
>deep temperature drop (Fig. 7, 11). Meantime the concentration of carbon
>dioxide in the atmosphere over these years has grown by more than 4%,
>and in 2006 many meteorologists predicted that 2007 would be the hottest
>of the last decade. This did not occur, although the global temperature
>of the Earth would have increased at least 0.1 degree if it depended on
>the concentration of carbon dioxide. It follows that warming had a
>natural origin, the contribution of CO2 to it was insignificant,
>anthropogenic increase in the concentration of carbon dioxide does not
>serve as an explanation for it, and in the foreseeable future CO2 will
>not be able to cause catastrophic warming. The so-called greenhouse
>effect will not avert the onset of the next deep temperature drop, the
>19th in the last 7500 years, which without fail follows after natural
>warming.
>
>The earth is no longer threatened by the catastrophic global warming
>forecast by some scientists; warming passed its peak in 1998-2005, while
>the value of the TSI by July - September of last year had already
>declined by 0.47 W/m2 (Fig. 1).
>
>For several years until the beginning in 2013 of a steady temperature
>drop, in a phase of instability, temperature will oscillate around the
>maximum that has been reached, without further substantial rise. Changes
>in climatic conditions will occur unevenly, depending on latitude. A
>temperature decrease in the smallest degree would affect the equatorial
>regions and strongly influence the temperate climate zones. The changes
>will have very serious consequences, and it is necessary to begin
>preparations even now, since there is practically no time in reserve.
>The global temperature of the Earth has begun its decrease without
>limitations on the volume of greenhouse gas emissions by industrially
>developed countries; therefore the implementation of the Kyoto protocol
>aimed to rescue the planet from the greenhouse effect should be put off
>at least 150 years.
>
>[...]
>
>Consequently, we should fear a deep temperature drop -- not catastrophic
>global warming. Humanity must survive the serious economic, social,
>demographic and political consequences of a global temperature drop,
>which will directly affect the national interests of almost all
>countries and more than 80% of the population of the Earth. A deep
>temperature drop is a considerably greater threat to humanity than
>warming. However, a reliable forecast of the time of the onset and of
>the depth of the global temperature drop will make it possible to adjust
>in advance the economic activity of humanity, to considerably weaken the
>crisis.
>
>For complete paper see here
><http://www.gao. spb.ru/english/ astrometr/ abduss_nkj_ 2009.pdf> :
>
>Related Links:
>
>UN Fears (More) Global Cooling Commeth! IPCC Scientist Warns UN: We may
>be about to enter 'one or even 2 decades during which temps cool' -
>September 4, 2009
><http://www.newscien tist.com/ article/dn17742- worlds-climate- could-cool-
first-wa
>rm-later.html? DCMP=OTC- rss&nsref= online-news>
>
>Flashback: 'Sun Sleeps': Danish Scientist declares 'global warming has
>stopped and a cooling is beginning... enjoy global warming while it
>lasts' - Sept. 2009
><http://www.climated epot.com/ a/2861/Sun- Sleeps-Danish- Scientist- declares-
global
>-warming-has- stopped-and- a-cooling- is-beginningenjo y-global- warming-while-
it-las
>ts>
>
>Climate Fears RIP...for 30 years!? - Global Warming could stop 'for up
>to 30 years! Warming 'On Hold?...'Could go into hiding for decades'
>study finds - Discovery.com - March 2, 2009
><http://dsc.discover y.com/news/ 2009/03/02/ global-warming- pause-print. html>
>
>Paper: Scientific evidence now points to global COOLING, contrary to UN
>alarmism
><http://www.climated epot.com/ a/2285/Paper- Scientific- evidence- now-points-
to-glo
>bal-COOLING- contrary- to-UN-alarmism>
>
>Meteorologist: 'Global cooling in its 8th year, declining ocean heat
>content, sea level rises slowed or stopped, sun in a deep slumber' -
>April 30, 2009
><http://www.climated epot.com/ a/539/Meteorolog ist-Global- cooling-in-
its-8th-year
>-declining- ocean-heat- content-sea- level-rises- slowed-or- stopped-sun-
in-a-deep- sl
>umber>
>
>Geologist: 'Records of past natural cycles suggest global cooling for
>first several decades of the 21st century to about 2030' - June 5, 2009
><http://www.climated epot.com/ a/1171/Geologist -Records- of-past-natural-
cycles-su
>ggest-global- cooling-for- first-several- decades-of- the-21st- century-to-
about-2030
>>
>
>Astronomers: 'Sun's output may decline significantly inducing another
>Little Ice Age on Earth' - August 15, 2009
><http://www.climated epot.com/ a/2452/Astronome rs-Suns-output- may-decline-
signifi
>cantly-inducing- another-Little- Ice-Age-on- Earth>
>
>Indian Geologist Dissents -- launches website: 'Enjoy Global Warming:
>Its natural' - Sept. 2009
><http://www.climated epot.com/ a/2976/Indian- Geologist- Dissents- -launches-
website
>-Enjoy-Global- Warming-Its- natural>











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'd prefer Fractal possibility 4

but I suspect it will be 2 then 1A or B

"Humans have not yet developed a moral category for the obscenity of voting
for a growth-oriented government". - a great observation.. maybe modify it
- and make it more general

"Humans have not yet developed a moral category for the obscenity of
unrestricted (anthropogenic) growth"

H




>This thread has generated many intresting comments since I started it with
>a link to a video clip by Albert Kaufman at  http://vimeo.com/6648857 ...
>a reminder in case anyone forgot.
>
>In the comments since, there seems to be a tussle between deep pessimism,
>tempered pessimism coupled with hope, such as Tom keeps reminding us, and
>as Robin Abraham pointed out from Kerla India, which has been an anomaly
>for many years.
>
>A few years ago I was involved is a chain discussion on the subject of
>collapse, and here is a clip from that time. It started out with someone
>asking about possible collapse scenarios.  My comment starts with DC:
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> from a few years ago, well before the '08 oil price peak and
economic bubbles bursting:
>
>Participant comment to group:
>I think it would be good to define a few types of collapse that might
>possibly occur; since there seem several ways it could go; and then build
>a list of things that might go with or mitigate each.   Any interest?
>
>DC:  I think collapse may best be described as a process with possible
>fractal points.
>Here's a stab at it.
>
>Today:
>Collapse started about 50 years ago when humans began deficit spending
>natural resources.  Elements of collapse continue now; increasing
>exponentially in step with human activity growth; and possibly even faster
>as fundamental Gaian system elements begin to shift and interact; i.e.
>global warming affects species behavior; which affects ….? …? (butterflies
>in Africa flap their wings faster?)
>
>At this time mass species extinctions are occurring; and human dieoff is
>accelerating but has not yet caught up with the birth rate. About 50% of
>humans are in want of either water or food.
>
>Resource wars have been continuous since WWII, as illustrated by economist
>JW Smith and others.
>
>Corporate governance of the "developed" world has designed economies to
>both foster and depend on growth in human activity.
>
>Humans have not yet developed a moral category for the obscenity of voting
>for a growth-oriented government.
>
>Fractal possibility one A – economic collapse first:
>With controls to the money supply slip sliding away; and the M3 money no
>longer even being assessed; the economy managers may simply lose control.
>As in the `30s; businesses close; angry people demand government action;
>resource wars attempt make new currencies work; atomic weapons are first
>choice;
>Game over for humanity.
>
>Fractal possibility one B – economic collapse first:
>With controls to the money supply slip sliding away; and the M3 money no
>longer even being assessed; the economy managers may simply lose control.
>Industry grinds to a halt; the electricity grid goes out in most countries;
>Human dieoff reduces human activity to a low level; global warming peaks
>in 30 years and begins to decline.  Pockets of people survive; and begin
>again.  Without a fundamental change in human acceptance of Gaia
>Preservation as the highest-level human priority; this process will repeat
>itself in a few hundred years.
>
>Fractal possibility Two – Peal oil kills economy:
>The money masters keep economies together until peak oil slows industry;
>and then fractal possibility A or B take over.
>
>Fractal possibility Three – Global warming first:
>The Russians find billions of barrels of easy access oil under the North
>Pole and keep the world economies going until chaotic weather makes life
>impossible for large mammals.
>
>Fractal possibility Four – Regional grass roots based human governance
>begins to develop interactive local economies using common international
>standards and a common goal: they grow in size and complexity until many
>essential infrastructure industries operate under this umbrella.  Social
>structures within community take care of unemployed people from the
>floundering growth economies.  Using international standards based on
>cybernetic principles; human activity levels are guided toward sustainable
>limits.
>
>If our choice is Pollyanna or perish; I'll vote to give Polly a chance.
>>>>>>>>>>>end>>>>
>
>The cybernetic principles I was referring to is a socioeconomic design
>whereby feedback loops restrain both human procreation and resource
>throughput by limiting the regional money supply.  Optimum-population -
>human well-being within renewing nature, are factors in the holy-grail
>that represents future goals.  I refer to this systemic approach as Per
>Capita Dynamics (PCD).
>
>I gave a paper on this at a conference in UK last fall, to a group working
>toward economic reform.  However, I'm not suggesting economic reform, but
>economic re design – a new paradigm.  Although there was lively discussion
>after my paper, the concept of having human population as a socially
>controllable variable was beyond acceptance for most, perhaps all, in
>attendance.
>
>If interested, I've posted the text of my talk at:
>http://gaiapc.ca/PCD/BromMD.htm
>
>The recent book by Thomas Greco, "The End Of Money: and the Future of
>Civilization", goes a long way to describing regional money systems using
>package of commodities to as the basis of the dollar.  It also shows how
>we can get along without banks just fine with mutual credit accounting
>systems.  He gives examples of these.  Much of Greco's material supports
>the concept of PCD, but PCD goes further by establishing societal goals
>and a socio-dynamic system for getting there.
>
>This is my form of Pollyanna for now, and I expect to elaborate on the
>basic in the next few months.
>Don Chisholm

You know, you'd only get roughly 30% more insolation in deep space, and I would
have thought that apart from simplicity sake, it would also be far cheaper to
just install 30% more solar panels right here on Earth!

But let's not allow logic to get in the way of a good sci-fi story....

Mike

The crazy thing is that for the northern hemisphere - there could be a
localised chill if the ocean conveyor currents stop or slow... we'll cook.
Gotta keep the balance..

H

denialist books outsell AGW books at Amazon...




>http://www.climatedepot.com/a/3515/Prominent-Russian-Scientist-We-should-fear-a
>-deep-temperature-drop--not-catastrophic-global-warming
>
>
>
>Prominent Russian Scientist: 'We should fear a deep temperature drop --
>not catastrophic global warming'
>
>'Warming had a natural origin...CO2 is 'not guilty'
>
>Tuesday, October 27, 2009By Marc Morano
><http://www.climatedepot.com/contact.asp>   -  Climate Depot
><http://www.climatedepot.com>
>
>Reprint of new scientific paper: (Full pdf paper available here
><http://www.gao.spb.ru/english/astrometr/abduss_nkj_2009.pdf> .)
>
>THE SUN DEFINES THE CLIMATE
>
>(Habibullo Abdussamatov, Dr. Sc. - Head of Space research laboratory of
>the Pulkovo Observatory, Head of the Russian/Ukrainian joint project
>Astrometria - (translated from Russian by Lucy Hancock) Dr. Abdussamatov
>is featured on page 140 of the 2009 U.S. Senate Report of More Than 700
>Dissenting Scientists Over Man-Made Global Warming
><http://www.epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&ContentRe
>cord_id=10fe77b0-802a-23ad-4df1-fc38ed4f85e3> . Also see "Related
>Links" below.)
>
>Key Excerpts: Observations of the Sun show that as for the increase in
>temperature, carbon dioxide is "not guilty" and as for what lies ahead
>in the upcoming decades, it is not catastrophic warming, but a global,
>and very prolonged, temperature drop. [...] Over the past decade, global
>temperature on the Earth has not increased; global warming has ceased,
>and already there are signs of the future deep temperature drop. [...]
>It follows that warming had a natural origin, the contribution of CO2 to
>it was insignificant, anthropogenic increase in the concentration of
>carbon dioxide does not serve as an explanation for it, and in the
>foreseeable future CO2 will not be able to cause catastrophic warming.
>The so-called greenhouse effect will not avert the onset of the next
>deep temperature drop, the 19th in the last 7500 years, which without
>fail follows after natural warming. [...] We should fear a deep
>temperature drop -- not catastrophic global warming. Humanity must
>survive the serious economic, social, demographic and political
>consequences of a global temperature drop, which will directly affect
>the national interests of almost all countries and more than 80% of the
>population of the Earth. A deep temperature drop is a considerably
>greater threat to humanity than warming. However, a reliable forecast of
>the time of the onset and of the depth of the global temperature drop
>will make it possible to adjust in advance the economic activity of
>humanity, to considerably weaken the crisis.
>
>Excerpts: Experts of the United Nations in regular reports publish data
>said to show that the Earth is approaching a catastrophic global
>warming, caused by increasing emissions of carbon dioxide to the
>atmosphere. However, observations of the Sun show that as for the
>increase in temperature, carbon dioxide is "not guilty" and as for what
>lies ahead in the upcoming decades, it is not catastrophic warming, but
>a global, and very prolonged, temperature drop.
>
>Life on earth completely depends on solar radiation, the ultimate source
>of energy for natural processes. For a long time it was thought that the
>luminosity of the Sun never changes, and for this reason the quantity of
>solar energy received per second over one square meter above the
>atmosphere at the distance of the Earth from the Sun (149 597 892 km),
>was named the solar constant.
>
>Until 1978, precise measurements of the value of the total solar
>irradiance (TSI) were not available. But according to indirect data,
>namely the established major climate variations of the Earth in recent
>millennia, one must doubt the invariance of its value.
>
>In the middle of the nineteenth century, German and Swiss astronomers
>Heinrich Schwabe and Rudolf Wolf established that the number of spots on
>the surface of the Sun periodically changes, diminishing from a maximum
>to a minimum, and then growing again, over a time frame on the order of
>11 years. Wolf introduced an index ("W") of the relative number of
>sunspots, computed as the sum of 10 times number of sunspot groups plus
>the total number of spots in all groups. This number has been regularly
>measured since 1849. Drawing on the work of professional astronomers and
>the observations of amateurs (which are of uncertain reliability) Wolf
>worked out a reconstruction of monthly values from 1749 as well as
>annual values from 1700. Today, the reconstruction of this time series
>stretches back to 1611. It has an eleven-year cycle of recurrence as
>well as other cycles related to onset and development of individual
>sunspot groups: changes in the fraction of the solar surface occupied by
>faculae, the frequency of prominences, and other phenomena in the solar
>chromosphere and corona.
>
>Analyzing the long record of sunspot numbers, the English astronomer
>Walter Maunder in 1893 came to the conclusion that from 1645 to 1715
>sunspots had been generally absent. Over the thirty-year period of the
>Maunder Minimum, astronomers of the time counted only about 50 spots.
>Usually, over that length of time, about 50,000 sunspots would appear.
>Today, it has been established that such minima have repeatedly occurred
>in the past. It is also known that the Maunder Minimum accompanied the
>coldest phase of a global temperature dip, physically measured in Europe
>and other regions, the most severe such dip for several millennia, which
>stretched from the fourteenth to the nineteenth centuries (now known as
>the Little Ice Age).
>
>The search for a relationship between large climate variations and
>phenomena observed in the Sun led to an interest in finding a connection
>between periods of change in the terrestrial climate and corresponding
>significant changes in the level of observed solar activity, because the
>sunspot number is the only index that has been measured over a long
>period of time.
>
>Determinative role of the Sun in variations in the climate of the Earth
>
>The Earth, after receiving and storing over the twentieth century an
>anomalously large amount of heat energy, from the 1990's began to return
>it gradually. The upper layers of the world ocean, completely
>unexpectedly to climatologists, began to cool in 2003. The heat
>accumulated by them unfortunately now is running out.
>
>Over the past decade, global temperature on the Earth has not increased;
>global warming has ceased, and already there are signs of the future
>deep temperature drop (Fig. 7, 11). Meantime the concentration of carbon
>dioxide in the atmosphere over these years has grown by more than 4%,
>and in 2006 many meteorologists predicted that 2007 would be the hottest
>of the last decade. This did not occur, although the global temperature
>of the Earth would have increased at least 0.1 degree if it depended on
>the concentration of carbon dioxide. It follows that warming had a
>natural origin, the contribution of CO2 to it was insignificant,
>anthropogenic increase in the concentration of carbon dioxide does not
>serve as an explanation for it, and in the foreseeable future CO2 will
>not be able to cause catastrophic warming. The so-called greenhouse
>effect will not avert the onset of the next deep temperature drop, the
>19th in the last 7500 years, which without fail follows after natural
>warming.
>
>The earth is no longer threatened by the catastrophic global warming
>forecast by some scientists; warming passed its peak in 1998-2005, while
>the value of the TSI by July - September of last year had already
>declined by 0.47 W/m2 (Fig. 1).
>
>For several years until the beginning in 2013 of a steady temperature
>drop, in a phase of instability, temperature will oscillate around the
>maximum that has been reached, without further substantial rise. Changes
>in climatic conditions will occur unevenly, depending on latitude. A
>temperature decrease in the smallest degree would affect the equatorial
>regions and strongly influence the temperate climate zones. The changes
>will have very serious consequences, and it is necessary to begin
>preparations even now, since there is practically no time in reserve.
>The global temperature of the Earth has begun its decrease without
>limitations on the volume of greenhouse gas emissions by industrially
>developed countries; therefore the implementation of the Kyoto protocol
>aimed to rescue the planet from the greenhouse effect should be put off
>at least 150 years.
>
>[...]
>
>Consequently, we should fear a deep temperature drop -- not catastrophic
>global warming. Humanity must survive the serious economic, social,
>demographic and political consequences of a global temperature drop,
>which will directly affect the national interests of almost all
>countries and more than 80% of the population of the Earth. A deep
>temperature drop is a considerably greater threat to humanity than
>warming. However, a reliable forecast of the time of the onset and of
>the depth of the global temperature drop will make it possible to adjust
>in advance the economic activity of humanity, to considerably weaken the
>crisis.
>
>For complete paper see here
><http://www.gao.spb.ru/english/astrometr/abduss_nkj_2009.pdf> :
>
>Related Links:
>
>UN Fears (More) Global Cooling Commeth! IPCC Scientist Warns UN: We may
>be about to enter 'one or even 2 decades during which temps cool' -
>September 4, 2009
><http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17742-worlds-climate-could-cool-first-wa
>rm-later.html?DCMP=OTC-rss&nsref=online-news>
>
>Flashback: 'Sun Sleeps': Danish Scientist declares 'global warming has
>stopped and a cooling is beginning...enjoy global warming while it
>lasts' - Sept. 2009
><http://www.climatedepot.com/a/2861/Sun-Sleeps-Danish-Scientist-declares-global
>-warming-has-stopped-and-a-cooling-is-beginningenjoy-global-warming-while-it-la\
s
>ts>
>
>Climate Fears RIP...for 30 years!? - Global Warming could stop 'for up
>to 30 years! Warming 'On Hold?...'Could go into hiding for decades'
>study finds - Discovery.com - March 2, 2009
><http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2009/03/02/global-warming-pause-print.html>
>
>Paper: Scientific evidence now points to global COOLING, contrary to UN
>alarmism
><http://www.climatedepot.com/a/2285/Paper-Scientific-evidence-now-points-to-glo
>bal-COOLING-contrary-to-UN-alarmism>
>
>Meteorologist: 'Global cooling in its 8th year, declining ocean heat
>content, sea level rises slowed or stopped, sun in a deep slumber' -
>April 30, 2009
><http://www.climatedepot.com/a/539/Meteorologist-Global-cooling-in-its-8th-year
>-declining-ocean-heat-content-sea-level-rises-slowed-or-stopped-sun-in-a-deep-s\
l
>umber>
>
>Geologist: 'Records of past natural cycles suggest global cooling for
>first several decades of the 21st century to about 2030' - June 5, 2009
><http://www.climatedepot.com/a/1171/Geologist-Records-of-past-natural-cycles-su
>ggest-global-cooling-for-first-several-decades-of-the-21st-century-to-about-203\
0
>>
>
>Astronomers: 'Sun's output may decline significantly inducing another
>Little Ice Age on Earth' - August 15, 2009
><http://www.climatedepot.com/a/2452/Astronomers-Suns-output-may-decline-signifi
>cantly-inducing-another-Little-Ice-Age-on-Earth>
>
>Indian Geologist Dissents -- launches website: 'Enjoy Global Warming:
>Its natural' - Sept. 2009
><http://www.climatedepot.com/a/2976/Indian-Geologist-Dissents--launches-website
>-Enjoy-Global-Warming-Its-natural>

On my gloomy days - I have to agree with M'seur Scottsworth - but on better
days I look out at the forest - and think .. we can do better..

There was an interesting discussion about coal mining and GW in Newcastle
(Australia - one of the centres of the coalindustry) - which was aired on
Australian Radio National last Saturday

http://blogs.abc.net.au/saturdayextra/2009/11/the-future-of-coalthe-big-one.html

worth listening to..

>Paul Gilding, a veteran environmental campaigner but one who decided about
>a decade ago that the only game was to work with rather than against
>industry, believes the risk is that we will change....but too suddenly and
>traumatically, because we'll have denied and denied and denied. Then we'll
>panic and all decent planning will go out the window. That way lies lots
>of distress and disadvantage to millions of us.
...................................

And I agree with Gilding on that - and that is why I think that we should
be putting our not-inconsiderable energyes into either trying to prevent
this de-railment or at least getting the respective Gov't energies diverted
into a safer siding (to use railway analogies) - rather than being like the
knitting ladies at the guillotine - "whoops - there goes CitiCorp, next..."
or arguing the minutae about relative forcings. We can do better than that!
(thanks Shiela).

So the sun will swallow the earth - that's squillions of years down the
track - and isn't a really good rationale for giving up.

So - besides trying to educate the young folk who come here, and replanting
rainforest, - I'm putting my energies at the moment into helping to get a
change in the policies and attitudes to the big (and angry) rhino in the
rec room - the burgeoning amount of fluorocarbons that are poised to be
released into the atmosphere - ironically - one area where the "developing"
world is a far worse performer than the "developed".

So what are you all doing??

H






>Now that is the longest justification I have seen for Eat Drink and be
>Merry for Tomorrow we die!
>
>
>Frank
>53.22N 2.07W
>
>
>On Mon, 2009-11-16 at 01:01 +0000, scottsworth wrote:
>>
>> Shrunken sperm (or normal sperm) have no means of escape from me!!!
>>
>> As for information, and dis-information, there seems to be a lot of it
>> about. I find it amusing that even with all the data on global warming
>> and its link to CO2 levels, there remains a huge group of people that
>> believe it is just a hoax cooked up by Al Gore. Religion, politics and
>> pre-disposition get in the way of beliefs and change. It is the same
>> with Peak Oil, though there seems to be a small shift in the awareness
>> of that. However, there remains a large group that believe that peak
>> oil is just a way for Wall Street to drive up the profit on energy and
>> gouge the average commuter in the US.
>>
>> My point is that none of us as individules can do much against the
>> other 7 billion people out there. I see little in results even from
>> the Club of Rome, or the Kyoto Accord, or any other think tank type of
>> collective brilliance. Seemingly we do indeed need a 'new religion' to
>> counter the effects of human activity in the 21st century. We need a
>> counter-culture movement like in the 1960s. So far the creating of
>> groups of fanatic greenies has not really resulted in any overall
>> change. We have limited pollution in the US to some degree. And we
>> have made other internat changes. But we do not control the world
>> population, and seemingly we cannot control immigration into the US
>> from Latin America. And the concept of green is not even fully
>> understood. One has to be careful about creating large political
>> change, for whatever reason, and whatever goal.
>>
>> In my view, the combined effects of global habitat destruction,
>> resource depletion, sheer human poulation numbers, corporate
>> conglomerate control, direct and indirect species extinction,
>> atmospheric change and pollution... these all add up to human species
>> extinction. As for people getting along peacefully in the world, I
>> would counter with the message of such works as, _Guns, Germs and
>> Steel_ where it is illustrated that in human history, over and over
>> and over again any human group with the advantage will overcome a
>> weaker group. It is a sort of reverse Star Trek, "Prime Directive."
>> Similar in evolution, where the species with the advantage wins out,
>> the human group with better technology, better resistance to disease,
>> or whatever the advantage, wins.
>>
>> I am amused with the resilliance of this group. You all seem to want
>> to do "something," and you think that we can impact the outcome of the
>> future because we have some preconcepion about the future, based on
>> what we are seeing in the now and what has happened in the past.
>> However, no one seems to know exactly what to do, or how to do it.
>> Also as a group, we do not agree as to what is the cause of the
>> potential problems (as seen in the debates here), or what the results
>> will be. And while the vast majority of humans are aweare of these
>> issues, or if they are, do not seem to think that these issues are
>> even a problem. Not unlike the pre-economic crash bubble economy days
>> of summer in 2008; everything was going great. No one listened to any
>> warnings. No one wanted to hear about problems. In my view, its not a
>> solvable problem. Politically or tenchnologically. The issues are too
>> complex, the beliefs are to variable, the scale is too large, and the
>> resources are too limited.
>>
>> My two cents. In the end, the sun will become a giant red star and
>> absorb the earth. Before that happens, the moon will leave its orbit
>> and the earth will become destabilized. Before that some asteroid will
>> hit the earth, or super caldera will erupt wiping most of life off the
>> earth. Maybe a gamma ray from a distant black hole will hit the earth
>> and wipe everything out as well. But... long before those things
>> happen, humans will become extinct. More than likely from their own
>> doing. Either from war, habitat destruction, resource depletion, or
>> some combination of them. These are inevitable facts. It is only a
>> matter of time. We cannot stop it. We simply cannot live forever,
>> either as individules or as a species.

Bombay should make one pause for thought. The poor live next to the super rich.
By the thesis here Bombay should be burning long ago

No dictatorship can hide the rich from the poor.

Robin Abraham

--- In energyresources@yahoogroups.com, "Abernethy, Virginia Deane"
<virginia.abernethy@...> wrote:
>
> Butting into the discussion below, sociologists suggest that people only get
unhappy when a "reference group" is doing better than they are. A village or
country may be extremely poor but the population is not restive or resentful so
long as some known village with which they compare themselves is not better off.
>
> Dictatorships are entirely rationale in attempting to keep their population
from learning that others in the world are better off. Information creates
unhappiness.  Comparing oneself to a more prosperous reference group is a prime
source of dissatisfaction.
> V.
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: energyresources@yahoogroups.com on behalf of hugh spencer
> Sent: Sun 11/15/2009 12:31 PM
> To: energyresources@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [energyresources] insanity of growth
>
>
>
>
>
> Robin, Tom
>
> From what little I have read .. it seems that Kerala Province is one of the
> exceptions to the rule in India. I haven't experienced the gun-driven
> society directly - but I have seen its results in Mexico inland from
> Mazatlan - and that was 25 years ago..
>
> We in Australia are lucky - as we are a reasonably "British" society - and
> relatively few guns (but I assure you - they are out there - the Gov't
> reaction to Port Arthur - meant that a lot of guns have been buried -
> especially in country areas - in nice clean PVC drainage tubes, well
> sealed).
>
> Yes - the juxtaposition of poverty and wealth doesn't help - but then,in
> the past we didn't have access to the fairly overwhelming amount of
> firepower that exists now .. an AK47 and a musket don't really compare.
> There's a rather interesting image in the latest Time mag of a Chinese
> developer, talking on a cell phone, with his black (African) body-guard,
> holding an umbrella over hime and toting an automatic rifle... speaks
> volumes..
>
> H
>
> >You are being very selective in your application of social trends. For
> >every village that is experiencing violence there are many which are
> >peaceful and quiet in spite of there being poverty and hunger.
> >Highlighting just the negatives may sound very macho but the realities are
> >always more complicated and mixed. There are many places in the world
> >where you would be surprised why the place is not blowing up. If you only
> >had energy resources as your source of information for the outer world you
> >would expect some 75% of the world as it exists today to go into chaos.
> >Most writers here write from their reasonably well endowed homes in the
> >west and imagine what it would be like to be poor. But for around 75 % of
> >the world population it is an everyday reality and they don't need to
> >imagine it. If the world is reasonably peaceful in spite of so much
> >poverty in midst of so much wealth, then it stands to reason that humans
> >may not be as violent and trigger happy as some ER list members!
> > would have us believe.
> >
> >regards
> >Robin Abraham
> >Kerala, India
> >
> >~~~~~~~~~EnergyResources Moderator Comment ~~~~~~~~
> >
> >Right.
> >
> >And the trick is for all of us, or at least most of us, to come to know
> >what is really possible and learn to live secure and satisfying lives
> >accordingly.
> >
> ~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

FYI

......................





http://www.climatedepot.com/a/3515/Prominent-Russian-Scientist-We-should-fear-a-\
deep-temperature-drop--not-catastrophic-global-warming



Prominent Russian Scientist: 'We should fear a deep temperature drop --
not catastrophic global warming'

'Warming had a natural origin...CO2 is 'not guilty'

Tuesday, October 27, 2009By Marc Morano
<http://www.climatedepot.com/contact.asp>   -  Climate Depot
<http://www.climatedepot.com>

Reprint of new scientific paper: (Full pdf paper available here
<http://www.gao.spb.ru/english/astrometr/abduss_nkj_2009.pdf> .)

THE SUN DEFINES THE CLIMATE

(Habibullo Abdussamatov, Dr. Sc. - Head of Space research laboratory of
the Pulkovo Observatory, Head of the Russian/Ukrainian joint project
Astrometria - (translated from Russian by Lucy Hancock) Dr. Abdussamatov
is featured on page 140 of the 2009 U.S. Senate Report of More Than 700
Dissenting Scientists Over Man-Made Global Warming
<http://www.epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&ContentRec\
ord_id=10fe77b0-802a-23ad-4df1-fc38ed4f85e3> . Also see "Related
Links" below.)

Key Excerpts: Observations of the Sun show that as for the increase in
temperature, carbon dioxide is "not guilty" and as for what lies ahead
in the upcoming decades, it is not catastrophic warming, but a global,
and very prolonged, temperature drop. [...] Over the past decade, global
temperature on the Earth has not increased; global warming has ceased,
and already there are signs of the future deep temperature drop. [...]
It follows that warming had a natural origin, the contribution of CO2 to
it was insignificant, anthropogenic increase in the concentration of
carbon dioxide does not serve as an explanation for it, and in the
foreseeable future CO2 will not be able to cause catastrophic warming.
The so-called greenhouse effect will not avert the onset of the next
deep temperature drop, the 19th in the last 7500 years, which without
fail follows after natural warming. [...] We should fear a deep
temperature drop -- not catastrophic global warming. Humanity must
survive the serious economic, social, demographic and political
consequences of a global temperature drop, which will directly affect
the national interests of almost all countries and more than 80% of the
population of the Earth. A deep temperature drop is a considerably
greater threat to humanity than warming. However, a reliable forecast of
the time of the onset and of the depth of the global temperature drop
will make it possible to adjust in advance the economic activity of
humanity, to considerably weaken the crisis.

Excerpts: Experts of the United Nations in regular reports publish data
said to show that the Earth is approaching a catastrophic global
warming, caused by increasing emissions of carbon dioxide to the
atmosphere. However, observations of the Sun show that as for the
increase in temperature, carbon dioxide is "not guilty" and as for what
lies ahead in the upcoming decades, it is not catastrophic warming, but
a global, and very prolonged, temperature drop.

Life on earth completely depends on solar radiation, the ultimate source
of energy for natural processes. For a long time it was thought that the
luminosity of the Sun never changes, and for this reason the quantity of
solar energy received per second over one square meter above the
atmosphere at the distance of the Earth from the Sun (149 597 892 km),
was named the solar constant.

Until 1978, precise measurements of the value of the total solar
irradiance (TSI) were not available. But according to indirect data,
namely the established major climate variations of the Earth in recent
millennia, one must doubt the invariance of its value.

In the middle of the nineteenth century, German and Swiss astronomers
Heinrich Schwabe and Rudolf Wolf established that the number of spots on
the surface of the Sun periodically changes, diminishing from a maximum
to a minimum, and then growing again, over a time frame on the order of
11 years. Wolf introduced an index ("W") of the relative number of
sunspots, computed as the sum of 10 times number of sunspot groups plus
the total number of spots in all groups. This number has been regularly
measured since 1849. Drawing on the work of professional astronomers and
the observations of amateurs (which are of uncertain reliability) Wolf
worked out a reconstruction of monthly values from 1749 as well as
annual values from 1700. Today, the reconstruction of this time series
stretches back to 1611. It has an eleven-year cycle of recurrence as
well as other cycles related to onset and development of individual
sunspot groups: changes in the fraction of the solar surface occupied by
faculae, the frequency of prominences, and other phenomena in the solar
chromosphere and corona.

Analyzing the long record of sunspot numbers, the English astronomer
Walter Maunder in 1893 came to the conclusion that from 1645 to 1715
sunspots had been generally absent. Over the thirty-year period of the
Maunder Minimum, astronomers of the time counted only about 50 spots.
Usually, over that length of time, about 50,000 sunspots would appear.
Today, it has been established that such minima have repeatedly occurred
in the past. It is also known that the Maunder Minimum accompanied the
coldest phase of a global temperature dip, physically measured in Europe
and other regions, the most severe such dip for several millennia, which
stretched from the fourteenth to the nineteenth centuries (now known as
the Little Ice Age).

The search for a relationship between large climate variations and
phenomena observed in the Sun led to an interest in finding a connection
between periods of change in the terrestrial climate and corresponding
significant changes in the level of observed solar activity, because the
sunspot number is the only index that has been measured over a long
period of time.

Determinative role of the Sun in variations in the climate of the Earth

The Earth, after receiving and storing over the twentieth century an
anomalously large amount of heat energy, from the 1990's began to return
it gradually. The upper layers of the world ocean, completely
unexpectedly to climatologists, began to cool in 2003. The heat
accumulated by them unfortunately now is running out.

Over the past decade, global temperature on the Earth has not increased;
global warming has ceased, and already there are signs of the future
deep temperature drop (Fig. 7, 11). Meantime the concentration of carbon
dioxide in the atmosphere over these years has grown by more than 4%,
and in 2006 many meteorologists predicted that 2007 would be the hottest
of the last decade. This did not occur, although the global temperature
of the Earth would have increased at least 0.1 degree if it depended on
the concentration of carbon dioxide. It follows that warming had a
natural origin, the contribution of CO2 to it was insignificant,
anthropogenic increase in the concentration of carbon dioxide does not
serve as an explanation for it, and in the foreseeable future CO2 will
not be able to cause catastrophic warming. The so-called greenhouse
effect will not avert the onset of the next deep temperature drop, the
19th in the last 7500 years, which without fail follows after natural
warming.

The earth is no longer threatened by the catastrophic global warming
forecast by some scientists; warming passed its peak in 1998-2005, while
the value of the TSI by July - September of last year had already
declined by 0.47 W/m2 (Fig. 1).

For several years until the beginning in 2013 of a steady temperature
drop, in a phase of instability, temperature will oscillate around the
maximum that has been reached, without further substantial rise. Changes
in climatic conditions will occur unevenly, depending on latitude. A
temperature decrease in the smallest degree would affect the equatorial
regions and strongly influence the temperate climate zones. The changes
will have very serious consequences, and it is necessary to begin
preparations even now, since there is practically no time in reserve.
The global temperature of the Earth has begun its decrease without
limitations on the volume of greenhouse gas emissions by industrially
developed countries; therefore the implementation of the Kyoto protocol
aimed to rescue the planet from the greenhouse effect should be put off
at least 150 years.

[...]

Consequently, we should fear a deep temperature drop -- not catastrophic
global warming. Humanity must survive the serious economic, social,
demographic and political consequences of a global temperature drop,
which will directly affect the national interests of almost all
countries and more than 80% of the population of the Earth. A deep
temperature drop is a considerably greater threat to humanity than
warming. However, a reliable forecast of the time of the onset and of
the depth of the global temperature drop will make it possible to adjust
in advance the economic activity of humanity, to considerably weaken the
crisis.

For complete paper see here
<http://www.gao.spb.ru/english/astrometr/abduss_nkj_2009.pdf> :

Related Links:

UN Fears (More) Global Cooling Commeth! IPCC Scientist Warns UN: We may
be about to enter 'one or even 2 decades during which temps cool' -
September 4, 2009
<http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17742-worlds-climate-could-cool-first-war\
m-later.html?DCMP=OTC-rss&nsref=online-news>

Flashback: 'Sun Sleeps': Danish Scientist declares 'global warming has
stopped and a cooling is beginning...enjoy global warming while it
lasts' - Sept. 2009
<http://www.climatedepot.com/a/2861/Sun-Sleeps-Danish-Scientist-declares-global-\
warming-has-stopped-and-a-cooling-is-beginningenjoy-global-warming-while-it-last\
s>

Climate Fears RIP...for 30 years!? - Global Warming could stop 'for up
to 30 years! Warming 'On Hold?...'Could go into hiding for decades'
study finds - Discovery.com - March 2, 2009
<http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2009/03/02/global-warming-pause-print.html>

Paper: Scientific evidence now points to global COOLING, contrary to UN
alarmism
<http://www.climatedepot.com/a/2285/Paper-Scientific-evidence-now-points-to-glob\
al-COOLING-contrary-to-UN-alarmism>

Meteorologist: 'Global cooling in its 8th year, declining ocean heat
content, sea level rises slowed or stopped, sun in a deep slumber' -
April 30, 2009
<http://www.climatedepot.com/a/539/Meteorologist-Global-cooling-in-its-8th-year-\
declining-ocean-heat-content-sea-level-rises-slowed-or-stopped-sun-in-a-deep-slu\
mber>

Geologist: 'Records of past natural cycles suggest global cooling for
first several decades of the 21st century to about 2030' - June 5, 2009
<http://www.climatedepot.com/a/1171/Geologist-Records-of-past-natural-cycles-sug\
gest-global-cooling-for-first-several-decades-of-the-21st-century-to-about-2030>

Astronomers: 'Sun's output may decline significantly inducing another
Little Ice Age on Earth' - August 15, 2009
<http://www.climatedepot.com/a/2452/Astronomers-Suns-output-may-decline-signific\
antly-inducing-another-Little-Ice-Age-on-Earth>

Indian Geologist Dissents -- launches website: 'Enjoy Global Warming:
Its natural' - Sept. 2009
<http://www.climatedepot.com/a/2976/Indian-Geologist-Dissents--launches-website-\
Enjoy-Global-Warming-Its-natural>













From: Brent and Elena [mailto:brelena@...]
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 6:41 AM
To: 'brelena@...'; 'Abernethy, Virginia Deane'; 'Hugh
Kendrick'; 'w.b.campbell@...'; 'Dweezles@...'; 'Alan
Olson'; 'wmpenn71@...'
Subject: climate change



This is an excellent summary of articles I've been reading for a number
of years.   Global cooling is a much scarier scenario.   Plants love CO2
and warmth----and so do we humans who benefit from the plant activity.
As solar activity (some "24 million megajoules less energy than before")
leads to cooler temps, atmospheric CO2 will decrease.  Plants won't like
that and neither will our farms.  Cold and ice are not so fun.  Note the
charts, particularly the one that shows global temps lead changes in
atmospheric CO2, not the other way around.



I would welcome global warming......without UN taxation to help "solve"
the carbon emissions problem.   Why don't we address sulfur and other
more noxious forms of pollution?   And, keep the UN out of it.



XXOOXX



http://www.gao.spb.ru/english/astrometr/abduss_nkj_2009.pdf







brelena@...

970-726-9807



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

This thread has generated many intresting comments since I started it with a
link to a video clip by Albert Kaufman at  http://vimeo.com/6648857 ... a
reminder in case anyone forgot.

In the comments since, there seems to be a tussle between deep pessimism,
tempered pessimism coupled with hope, such as Tom keeps reminding us, and as
Robin Abraham pointed out from Kerla India, which has been an anomaly for many
years.

A few years ago I was involved is a chain discussion on the subject of collapse,
and here is a clip from that time. It started out with someone asking about
possible collapse scenarios.  My comment starts with DC:

>>>>>>>>>>>> from a few years ago, well before the '08 oil price peak and
economic bubbles bursting:

Participant comment to group:
I think it would be good to define a few types of collapse that might possibly
occur; since there seem several ways it could go; and then build a list of
things that might go with or mitigate each.   Any interest?

DC:  I think collapse may best be described as a process with possible fractal
points.
Here's a stab at it.

Today:
Collapse started about 50 years ago when humans began deficit spending natural
resources.  Elements of collapse continue now; increasing exponentially in step
with human activity growth; and possibly even faster as fundamental Gaian system
elements begin to shift and interact; i.e. global warming affects species
behavior; which affects ….? …? (butterflies in Africa flap their wings faster?)

At this time mass species extinctions are occurring; and human dieoff is
accelerating but has not yet caught up with the birth rate. About 50% of humans
are in want of either water or food.

Resource wars have been continuous since WWII, as illustrated by economist JW
Smith and others.

Corporate governance of the "developed" world has designed economies to both
foster and depend on growth in human activity.

Humans have not yet developed a moral category for the obscenity of voting for a
growth-oriented government.

Fractal possibility one A – economic collapse first:
With controls to the money supply slip sliding away; and the M3 money no longer
even being assessed; the economy managers may simply lose control.
As in the `30s; businesses close; angry people demand government action;
resource wars attempt make new currencies work; atomic weapons are first choice;
Game over for humanity.

Fractal possibility one B – economic collapse first:
With controls to the money supply slip sliding away; and the M3 money no longer
even being assessed; the economy managers may simply lose control.
Industry grinds to a halt; the electricity grid goes out in most countries;
Human dieoff reduces human activity to a low level; global warming peaks in 30
years and begins to decline.  Pockets of people survive; and begin again. 
Without a fundamental change in human acceptance of Gaia Preservation as the
highest-level human priority; this process will repeat itself in a few hundred
years.

Fractal possibility Two – Peal oil kills economy:
The money masters keep economies together until peak oil slows industry; and
then fractal possibility A or B take over.

Fractal possibility Three – Global warming first:
The Russians find billions of barrels of easy access oil under the North Pole
and keep the world economies going until chaotic weather makes life impossible
for large mammals.

Fractal possibility Four – Regional grass roots based human governance begins to
develop interactive local economies using common international standards and a
common goal: they grow in size and complexity until many essential
infrastructure industries operate under this umbrella.  Social structures within
community take care of unemployed people from the floundering growth economies. 
Using international standards based on cybernetic principles; human activity
levels are guided toward sustainable limits.

If our choice is Pollyanna or perish; I'll vote to give Polly a chance.
>>>>>>>>>>end>>>>

The cybernetic principles I was referring to is a socioeconomic design whereby
feedback loops restrain both human procreation and resource throughput by
limiting the regional money supply.  Optimum-population - human well-being
within renewing nature, are factors in the holy-grail that represents future
goals.  I refer to this systemic approach as Per Capita Dynamics (PCD).

I gave a paper on this at a conference in UK last fall, to a group working
toward economic reform.  However, I'm not suggesting economic reform, but
economic re design – a new paradigm.  Although there was lively discussion after
my paper, the concept of having human population as a socially controllable
variable was beyond acceptance for most, perhaps all, in attendance.

If interested, I've posted the text of my talk at:
http://gaiapc.ca/PCD/BromMD.htm

The recent book by Thomas Greco, "The End Of Money: and the Future of
Civilization", goes a long way to describing regional money systems using
package of commodities to as the basis of the dollar.  It also shows how we can
get along without banks just fine with mutual credit accounting systems.  He
gives examples of these.  Much of Greco's material supports the concept of PCD,
but PCD goes further by establishing societal goals and a socio-dynamic system
for getting there.

This is my form of Pollyanna for now, and I expect to elaborate on the basic in
the next few months.
Don Chisholm

Back in the Dark Ages when I first began the writing project that didn't
make me famous and assure my future, I wrote as follows:  (from
http://dematerialism.net/Chapter%202.html#_Toc81170700)

Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas

P.S.  Criswell and I had lunch at the University of Houston a couple of
years ago.  He was still enthusiastic about his idea.

Criswell and Waldron [18] suggest placing solar collectors on the moon and
beaming energy to the earth as microwaves.  Only two transmitters are
required and a lunar satellite or two to account for the short period of
time when neither of the moon's antipodes is in line of sight with the
earth.  Hundreds of decentralized collectors are required and I like that
idea very much, but I am terrified of whoever will control the transmitters.

Criswell claimed privately that he did an energy efficiency analysis, but
none appears in his papers.  I am afraid this imaginative scheme would not
stand up to the scrutiny required by the methodology recommended above.
People working in space will need frequent rest and rehabilitation.  (Space
sickness is real.)  Imagine the cost of shuttling hundreds of workers back
and forth from the moon to the earth - even with a permanent space station
(which I believe is beyond our means as well).  But, I now wish to give one
of my heretical arguments for rejecting this technology.

Space is the common property of all of humanity or of a population larger
than humanity or of no one.  To invade space, especially with commerce
(viewed metaphorically as a disease like cancer in this essay), would be
improper even if every single human being signed off on it.  But that is
quite impossible as I shall not sign off on it and when I am gone someone
will take my place.  In effect I am saying that I share the custodianship of
space and you may not invade a domain of which I am the steward.  Just stay
out of my space; I don't permit it.  What's that you say?  The common will
must prevail.  Only if it can be defended according to the principles of
aesthetics, reasonableness, and utility, and the intrusion of commerce into
space is guaranteed to be defeated on all three counts.  Someone said that
the exploration was a joint international effort, therefore it was
sanctioned by all of humanity.  My reply is that the leadership of the
sovereign states of the world and of the United Nations does not represent
all of humanity.  On the contrary, it is opposed to it.  Leadership
represents essentially - itself.

The bottom line, though, is that we can't afford the emergy to go into
space.  A scientist who represents NASA at scientific meetings (twice while
I was in attendance) was unable to tell me how many kWhrs are consumed on a
typical space-shuttle mission.  That's something he should know.  That's the
first thing I want to know.  You can bet the number of people who have to
starve to death to pay for a shuttle mission is shocking and, as previously
shown, it is proper to view it from that perspective.  (There may be a
thousand problems that would have to be removed before one could say that
space research was the cause of their deprivation; but, when all those
problems were removed, space research would stand between themselves and
life itself.)

Permit me to make one more observation with respect to who has the authority
to permit the exploration of space.  Let us begin by asking who has the
authority to permit the exploration of earth?  We all know the famous
explorers, e.g., Columbus, were not truly explorers but rather invaders.
America had already been "discovered" by the people who lived there.  When I
bought my five acres in Upstate New York, I did not buy the mineral rights.
Who retained the mineral rights and why?  But, what about the deed to the
property that I did obtain?  A title search was made (at my expense) and the
history of the transfer of ownership was traced back through several
"owners", but not very far back.  What would have been discovered if the
title were searched back to Columbus?  On the wall of the local barbershop
hung a map with huge areas of the county ceded to John Doe, say, by King
George III.  Where did King George get the authority to cede parts of
Upstate New York to anyone?  By the sword, that is, illegally and immorally
by every rational law of God and man.  Now, if the title to every piece of
land in the United States is in doubt, how can authority to explore outer
space be valid?  Outer space is unoccupied, so you say.  I'm sorry, but that
won't wash.  Who has the authority to give one person the right to occupy it
rather than another?  The answer is no one.  I have provided a
<http://dematerialism.net/On%20Space%20Travel%20and%20Research.html>  short
essay in Vol. II [12] of my collected essays elaborating my position on
space research.

November, 1996





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

-----Original Message-----
From: energyresources@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:energyresources@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jim
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 4:30 PM
To: energyresources@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [energyresources] Re: Japan eyes solar station in space



I think that Zubrin's estimates are based on silicon solar cells.  It is
clear that for any of this to work the solar cells will have to be graphene
sheets, or die based systems.  A graphene based solar cell would be
literally atoms in thickness, but of course would have to be on a substratum
or sheet.  In that way orbital masses can be reduced by several orders of
magnitude.



I am not saying this will work or be cost effective.  Yet people do consider
this in as a possibility.



LC
-------------------------




I hardly think that's a big issue, Moderator. Such a geo-stationary system
with a fixed collector on the surface of the planet could very easily be
incorporated into air traffic routes. We already route planes around high
security locations, it's not rocket science.

What *is* rocket science, however, is getting the solar collectors into
orbit. About a decade ago the engineer Robert Zubrin (ex-Senior Engineer at
Lockheed Martin, consultant on NASA's human-to-Mars mission plan and founder
of Pioneer Astronautics) published a wonderful book, Entering Space. In it
he tries to dispel the many science-fiction myths regarding space travel,
mining the solar system and doing business in orbit.

In Chapter Four he takes a close look at orbital solar arrays and suggests
that (based upon 1999 prices) the *launch costs* alone of such systems would
amount to roughly $3,300 per Watt. To put that in perspective, that amounts
to about $3.3 trillion for a 1,000 MW system suitable for a city the size of
Denver, Colorado (for instance). That's launch costs alone. Adding in
"maintenance, insurance, spacecraft hardware, construction, real estate
costs for the receiver and its power conditioning system, salaries, taxes
and so on" he estimates that one thousand MW of generating capacity could
easily run to $6 trillion.

It's a non-starter unless launch costs can be reduced by a factor of at
least 2,000.

In other words, this is a research grant to help subsidise the Japanese
engineering industry and is not a realistic prospect for future power
generation.

Sorry to sound like a spoilsport to those who are attracted to shiny
space-age techno-fixes (I'm a bit of a science fiction fan myself, so I
understand the attraction). But it's fairly clear that $6 trillion invested
in wind, wave and tidal energy will provide a far greater return than
orbital solar arrays.

jim fitzsimons
Dublin, Ireland.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hugh,
It is no one's case that the post peak oil world will be a peaceful and utopian
one. But it is always important that we do not exaggerate. The world is facing
many crisis and we would all have to tackle it. The best way to do it is to get
accurate understanding of the world rather than indulge in hyperbole.

Kerala is different from the rest of India, but please do not get the impression
that every village in India is experiencing lawlessness. Do you know that there
is a Police Station in Rajasthan (a very poor state in India) where not a single
crime has been registered? I have traveled extensively across India for nearly 4
years in a row. I can tell from direct experience that India seems reasonably
peaceful to me. In Orissa (one of the least developed states in India), I have
seen women freely roaming the streets in midnight without any fear. The law and
order situation in Orissa is very good.
The law and order in Bihar and UP is bad but it is nowhere near the extremes
that many here seem to be suggesting.

Sometimes when I read many ER posters I wonder if we live in the same planet.

regards
Robin Abraham
Kerala, India



--- In energyresources@yahoogroups.com, hugh spencer <Hugh@...> wrote:
>
>
> Robin, Tom
>
> From what little I have read .. it seems that Kerala Province is one of the
> exceptions to the rule in India. I haven't experienced the gun-driven
> society directly - but I have seen its results in Mexico inland from
> Mazatlan - and that was 25 years ago..
>
> We in Australia are lucky - as we are a reasonably "British" society - and
> relatively few guns (but I assure you - they are out there - the Gov't
> reaction to Port Arthur - meant that a lot of guns have been buried -
> especially in country areas - in nice clean PVC drainage tubes, well
> sealed).
>
> Yes - the juxtaposition of poverty and wealth doesn't help - but then,in
> the past we didn't have access to the fairly overwhelming amount of
> firepower that exists now .. an AK47 and a musket don't really compare.
> There's a rather interesting image in the latest Time mag of a Chinese
> developer, talking on a cell phone, with his black (African) body-guard,
> holding an umbrella over hime and toting an automatic rifle... speaks
> volumes..
>
> H
>
>
>
>
> >You are being very selective in your application of social trends. For
> >every village that is experiencing violence there are many which are
> >peaceful and quiet in spite of there being poverty and hunger.
> >Highlighting just the negatives may sound very macho but the realities are
> >always more complicated and mixed. There are many places in the world
> >where you would be surprised why the place is not blowing up. If you only
> >had energy resources as your source of information for the outer world you
> >would expect some 75% of the world as it exists today to go into chaos.
> >Most writers here write from their reasonably well endowed homes in the
> >west and imagine what it would be like to be poor. But for around 75 % of
> >the world population it is an everyday reality and they don't need to
> >imagine it. If the world is reasonably peaceful in spite of so much
> >poverty in midst of so much wealth, then it stands to reason that humans
> >may not be as violent and trigger happy as some ER list members!
> >  would have us believe.
> >
> >regards
> >Robin Abraham
> >Kerala, India
> >
> >~~~~~~~~~EnergyResources Moderator Comment ~~~~~~~~
> >
> >Right.
> >
> >And the trick is for all of us, or at least most of us, to come to know
> >what is really possible and learn to live secure and satisfying lives
> >accordingly.
> >
> ~~~~~~~~
>

Now that is the longest justification I have seen for Eat Drink and be
Merry for Tomorrow we die!


Frank
53.22N 2.07W


On Mon, 2009-11-16 at 01:01 +0000, scottsworth wrote:
>
> Shrunken sperm (or normal sperm) have no means of escape from me!!!
>
> As for information, and dis-information, there seems to be a lot of it
> about. I find it amusing that even with all the data on global warming
> and its link to CO2 levels, there remains a huge group of people that
> believe it is just a hoax cooked up by Al Gore. Religion, politics and
> pre-disposition get in the way of beliefs and change. It is the same
> with Peak Oil, though there seems to be a small shift in the awareness
> of that. However, there remains a large group that believe that peak
> oil is just a way for Wall Street to drive up the profit on energy and
> gouge the average commuter in the US.
>
> My point is that none of us as individules can do much against the
> other 7 billion people out there. I see little in results even from
> the Club of Rome, or the Kyoto Accord, or any other think tank type of
> collective brilliance. Seemingly we do indeed need a 'new religion' to
> counter the effects of human activity in the 21st century. We need a
> counter-culture movement like in the 1960s. So far the creating of
> groups of fanatic greenies has not really resulted in any overall
> change. We have limited pollution in the US to some degree. And we
> have made other internat changes. But we do not control the world
> population, and seemingly we cannot control immigration into the US
> from Latin America. And the concept of green is not even fully
> understood. One has to be careful about creating large political
> change, for whatever reason, and whatever goal.
>
> In my view, the combined effects of global habitat destruction,
> resource depletion, sheer human poulation numbers, corporate
> conglomerate control, direct and indirect species extinction,
> atmospheric change and pollution... these all add up to human species
> extinction. As for people getting along peacefully in the world, I
> would counter with the message of such works as, _Guns, Germs and
> Steel_ where it is illustrated that in human history, over and over
> and over again any human group with the advantage will overcome a
> weaker group. It is a sort of reverse Star Trek, "Prime Directive."
> Similar in evolution, where the species with the advantage wins out,
> the human group with better technology, better resistance to disease,
> or whatever the advantage, wins.
>
> I am amused with the resilliance of this group. You all seem to want
> to do "something," and you think that we can impact the outcome of the
> future because we have some preconcepion about the future, based on
> what we are seeing in the now and what has happened in the past.
> However, no one seems to know exactly what to do, or how to do it.
> Also as a group, we do not agree as to what is the cause of the
> potential problems (as seen in the debates here), or what the results
> will be. And while the vast majority of humans are aweare of these
> issues, or if they are, do not seem to think that these issues are
> even a problem. Not unlike the pre-economic crash bubble economy days
> of summer in 2008; everything was going great. No one listened to any
> warnings. No one wanted to hear about problems. In my view, its not a
> solvable problem. Politically or tenchnologically. The issues are too
> complex, the beliefs are to variable, the scale is too large, and the
> resources are too limited.
>
> My two cents. In the end, the sun will become a giant red star and
> absorb the earth. Before that happens, the moon will leave its orbit
> and the earth will become destabilized. Before that some asteroid will
> hit the earth, or super caldera will erupt wiping most of life off the
> earth. Maybe a gamma ray from a distant black hole will hit the earth
> and wipe everything out as well. But... long before those things
> happen, humans will become extinct. More than likely from their own
> doing. Either from war, habitat destruction, resource depletion, or
> some combination of them. These are inevitable facts. It is only a
> matter of time. We cannot stop it. We simply cannot live forever,
> either as individules or as a species.
>
> > Maybe Tom - it's too late for that .. we already have a enormous
> body of
> > information and some pretty well worked out strategies - which while
> not
> > perfect are a damn sight better than what has existed before - but
> they do
> > require manking to take a bit of a backseat in importance - and they
> don't
> > sell well.
> > We need informed and committed salespeople out there - shoving feet
> in
> > doors and pamphlets in faces, and browbeating the folks at the local
> > watering hole...
> >
> > Whoops - sounds like the Mormons to me (;->)
> >
> > so if they can do it - perhaps we can too... AVANTI!!
> >
> > H
> >
> > Scottworth - don't drink Duff beer - it's bad for you... shrivels
> the sperm..
>
>
>
>
>
--

On Sun, 2009-11-15 at 13:49 -0800, Eric Pfeiffer wrote:
>
> Anyone help me here?....
> Take 250megawatts of electricity, beam it 22,000 miles to a
> receiving site. What is the amount of electricity reaching
> the receiving site excluding issues like dust, and atmospheric
> gas absorbtion if any?

And the conversion at each end, electricity to some radiation and the
radiation back to electricity.

I have a sneaking feeling, Eric, that we are not supposed to ask these
sort of questions!!





--

Frank
53.22N 2.07W

On Sun, 2009-11-15 at 18:10 -0600, Abernethy, Virginia Deane wrote:
> Butting into the discussion below, sociologists suggest that people
> only get unhappy when a "reference group" is doing better than they
> are. A village or country may be extremely poor but the population is
> not restive or resentful so long as some known village with which they
> compare themselves is not better off.
>
> Dictatorships are entirely rationale in attempting to keep their
> population from learning that others in the world are better off.
> Information creates unhappiness. Comparing oneself to a more
> prosperous reference group is a prime source of dissatisfaction.
> V.

Yes, Virginia, and this is picked out in The Spirit Level: Why More
Equal Societies Almost Always Do Better by Richard Wilkinson and Kate
Pickett ; they show that the mosy unhappy and most unequal societies are
yours and mine (US and UK).


--

Frank
53.22N 2.07W

On Sun, 2009-11-15 at 23:29 +0000, jim wrote:
>
> In other words, this is a research grant to help subsidise the
> Japanese
> engineering industry and is not a realistic prospect for future power
> generation.
>
> Sorry to sound like a spoilsport to those who are attracted to shiny
> space-age techno-fixes (I'm a bit of a science fiction fan myself, so
> I
> understand the attraction). But it's fairly clear that $6 trillion
> invested
> in wind, wave and tidal energy will provide a far greater return than
> orbital solar arrays.

Spot on, Jim, there are so many of these con projects that get the
publicity from ignorant journalists and the money from equally ignorant
investors.

Mind you the guys that wrote the application should be contacted, he
could help us get an EU RTD project launched (:-)~


--

Frank
53.22N 2.07W

Shrunken sperm (or normal sperm) have no means of escape from me!!!

As for information, and dis-information, there seems to be a lot of it about. I
find it amusing that even with all the data on global warming and its link to
CO2 levels, there remains a huge group of people that believe it is just a hoax
cooked up by Al Gore. Religion, politics and pre-disposition get in the way of
beliefs and change. It is the same with Peak Oil, though there seems to be a
small shift in the awareness of that. However, there remains a large group that
believe that peak oil is just a way for Wall Street to drive up the profit on
energy and gouge the average commuter in the US.

My point is that none of us as individules can do much against the other 7
billion people out there. I see little in results even from the Club of Rome, or
the Kyoto Accord, or any other think tank type of collective brilliance.
Seemingly we do indeed need a 'new religion' to counter the effects of human
activity in the 21st century. We need a counter-culture movement like in the
1960s. So far the creating of groups of fanatic greenies has not really resulted
in any overall change. We have limited pollution in the US to some degree. And
we have made other internat changes. But we do not control the world population,
and seemingly we cannot control immigration into the US from Latin America. And
the concept of green is not even fully understood. One has to be careful about
creating large political change, for whatever reason, and whatever goal.

In my view, the combined effects of global habitat destruction, resource
depletion, sheer human poulation numbers, corporate conglomerate control, direct
and indirect species extinction, atmospheric change and pollution... these all
add up to human species extinction. As for people getting along peacefully in
the world, I would counter with the message of such works as, _Guns, Germs and
Steel_ where it is illustrated that in human history, over and over and over
again any human group with the advantage will overcome a weaker group. It is a
sort of reverse Star Trek, "Prime Directive." Similar in evolution, where the
species with the advantage wins out, the human group with better technology,
better resistance to disease, or whatever the advantage, wins.

I am amused with the resilliance of this group. You all seem to want to do
"something," and you think that we can impact the outcome of the future because
we have some preconcepion about the future, based on what we are seeing in the
now and what has happened in the past. However, no one seems to know exactly
what to do, or how to do it. Also as a group, we do not agree as to what is the
cause of the potential problems (as seen in the debates here), or what the
results will be. And while the vast majority of humans are aweare of these
issues, or if they are, do not seem to think that these issues are even a
problem. Not unlike the pre-economic crash bubble economy days of summer in
2008; everything was going great. No one listened to any warnings. No one wanted
to hear about problems. In my view, its not a solvable problem. Politically or
tenchnologically. The issues are too complex, the beliefs are to variable, the
scale is too large, and the resources are too limited.

My two cents. In the end, the sun will become a giant red star and absorb the
earth. Before that happens, the moon will leave its orbit and the earth will
become destabilized. Before that some asteroid will hit the earth, or super
caldera will erupt wiping most of life off the earth. Maybe a gamma ray from a
distant black hole will hit the earth and wipe everything out as well. But...
long before those things happen, humans will become extinct. More than likely
from their own doing. Either from war, habitat destruction, resource depletion,
or some combination of them. These are inevitable facts. It is only a matter of
time. We cannot stop it. We simply cannot live forever, either as individules or
as a species.

> Maybe Tom - it's too late for that .. we already have a enormous body of
> information and some pretty well worked out strategies - which while not
> perfect are a damn sight better than what has existed before - but they do
> require manking to take a bit of a backseat in importance - and they don't
> sell well.
> We need informed and committed salespeople out there - shoving feet in
> doors and pamphlets in faces, and browbeating the folks at the local
> watering hole...
>
> Whoops - sounds like the Mormons to me (;->)
>
> so if they can do it - perhaps we can too...  AVANTI!!
>
> H
>
> Scottworth - don't drink Duff beer - it's bad for you... shrivels the sperm..