--- In eosdoc@egroups.com, "Chris T. Daida" <cdaida@b...> wrote:
> This is a great start. Some issues:
> 1) How should we create diagrams? Are you using images, or the
> line art drawings from the manual? I can get my hands on a
> digital camera, so maybe I ought to go that route.
> 2) Should we use viewfinder images to illustrate viewfinder data?
> I can't imagine any other source for these than the manuals.
> ... more good stuff deleted ...

Hi Chris,

    I have a suggestion.  This should be a collaboration.  If you need
a picture of the batteries being loaded for an Rebel 2000, you could
always ask someone who may have a digital camera to create one.  I'm
sure there are very competent photographers here :-)

    When generating content, you can leave space for illustrations, or
even create a draft illustration using words (Picture of Flash
hotshoe needed here).

    I have shot viewfinder pictures with a digital camcorder.  But it
might be even easier to redraw them from scratch.

Cheers
Julian Loke

Hi Everyone,

    In my efforts on the 430EZ I have already discovered something new and
very useful for my own shooting.

    I normally shoot with my EOS 1000FN = Rebel SII in P mode, even with
ATTL flash.  However, it appears that Rapid-Fire (partial charge cycling)
doesn't work in P mode.  Or Av Or Tv Or M mode.  [Because the camera is
not n single-frame advance mode]  This means that I always had to wait 6
seconds or more for flash recycling, which was even slower than when using
the popup flash :-(

    If I use GREEN mode, I can't shift the settings nor use exposure
compensation. Then I discovered that if I use the flash with DEP mode on
the 1000FN, I get a single-frame advance mode like GREEN mode, but
shiftable like P mode. :-)

    Oh joy!  Almost as much fun as getting a new camera body :-)

Cheers
Julian Loke

> Julian Loke wrote:
>> Thanks everyone for joining this project.  I invited others too
>> and they may join later.  If they do, the old messages are in the
>> archive: http://www.egroups.com/messages/eosdoc

On Sun, 30 Apr 2000, Chris T. Daida wrote:
> Hi Julian,
>
> Thanks for spearheading this project. It's probably the most
> ambitious and collaborative thing the EOS list has ever
> attempted. Thanks also for being the "interim" coordinator. I
> won't be volunteering for the position, however, because I'm not
> the ideal candidate that you were hoping for. But I will try to
> contribute as much as I am able to.
>
> I would be glad to produce an EOS 300 "manual," but I'd like to
> wait until we finalize our position on the copyright issues and
> our standard of what the manuals should actually be, i.e., user
> commentary or straightforward user manual. There seem to be
> varying opinions regarding the latter issue.
>

Hi Chris,

    I think that like everyone here, you are probably computer
literater enough to use a web browser and e-mail (qualification 1)
and have keen sense of self-preservation not to get into legal
trouble (qualification 2) :-)

    Does this mean that you volunteer as coordinator? Anyone else?  How
about Terry Carroll who has just joined the group? Welcome Terry,
the old (all 27 of them) messages are in the archive at:
http://www.egroups.com/messages/eosdoc

    As I remember, we were eagerly waiting for someone (was it Bill
Anderson?) to Contact Canon.  From prior experience, I believe we will be
waiting forever.  (My 28-135 IS has been at Canon Canada Service for
nearly two months!)

    In the meantime, I will continue to work on the 430EZ manual. I have
reached the part where the Canon translation is extremely confusing and
clearly wrong in some parts.  This section does not make sense as it
stands and I will happily rework it using knowledge shared on the EOS
list.

    If we are not going to copy the text, we should not copy Canon's
pictures.  As for the pictures, I am quite happy to remake or redraw
illustrations.  The pictures you see at:
http://www.egroups.com/files/eosdoc/Flash/430EZ/EDP+430EZ.htm
were made by placing my flash on the scanner and scanning at
low resolution.  I haven't tried a digital camera or digital
video, but that would also be possible.

Cheers
Julian Loke

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris T. Daida" <cdaida@...>
To: <eosdoc@egroups.com>
Sent: 01 May 2000 8:15 am
Subject: Re: [eosdoc] ftp.photoarena.co.uk


> Julian Loke wrote:
>
> > Hi Dave (and Chris Daida, Bill Anderson, Keith Green, and ZhangJJ)
> >
> >     Thanks everyone for joining this project.  I invited others too and
> > they may join later.  If they do, the old messages are in the archive:
> > http://www.egroups.com/messages/eosdoc
>
> Hi Julian,
>
> Thanks for spearheading this project. It's probably the most
> ambitious and collaborative thing the EOS list has ever
> attempted. Thanks also for being the "interim" coordinator. I
> won't be volunteering for the position, however, because I'm not
> the ideal candidate that you were hoping for. But I will try to
> contribute as much as I am able to.
>
> I would be glad to produce an EOS 300 "manual," but I'd like to
> wait until we finalize our position on the copyright issues and
> our standard of what the manuals should actually be, i.e., user
> commentary or straightforward user manual. There seem to be
> varying opinions regarding the latter issue.
>
> thanks again,
> Chris

Like Chris, I'm also waiting for the copyright issues to be clarified.
However, although not copying the text most people seem to be copying the
diagrams. Surely these are just as much copyrighted.

Cheers

Keith

Julian Loke wrote:

> Here's my first draft for an outline.  Please change it a lot and repost
> back to the eosdoc list:
>
> Generic EDP manual
> 1) Naming the Parts
> 2) Abstract / Fast start (Point and shoot in 60 seconds)
> 3) Focus
> 4) Meter
> 5) Shutter
> 6) Flash
> 7) Special functions
> 8) Technical Specifications
> 9) Links and Updates

This is a great start. Some issues:

1) How should we create diagrams? Are you using images, or the
line art drawings from the manual? I can get my hands on a
digital camera, so maybe I ought to go that route.

2) Should we use viewfinder images to illustrate viewfinder data?
I can't imagine any other source for these than the manuals.

3) What's missing:
	 battery issues
	 film loading and unloading
		 and ISO setting change
	 QD imprinting (maybe this should go under "Special functions")
	 Reference:
		 "feature availability table"
		 troubleshooting guide
	 The obvious:
		 camera care
		 lens mounting and dismounting
	 The unimportant:
		 accessories list

Members, please evaluate and append.

thanks,
Chris

Julian Loke wrote:

> Hi Dave (and Chris Daida, Bill Anderson, Keith Green, and ZhangJJ)
>
>     Thanks everyone for joining this project.  I invited others too and
> they may join later.  If they do, the old messages are in the archive:
> http://www.egroups.com/messages/eosdoc

Hi Julian,

Thanks for spearheading this project. It's probably the most
ambitious and collaborative thing the EOS list has ever
attempted. Thanks also for being the "interim" coordinator. I
won't be volunteering for the position, however, because I'm not
the ideal candidate that you were hoping for. But I will try to
contribute as much as I am able to.

I would be glad to produce an EOS 300 "manual," but I'd like to
wait until we finalize our position on the copyright issues and
our standard of what the manuals should actually be, i.e., user
commentary or straightforward user manual. There seem to be
varying opinions regarding the latter issue.

thanks again,
Chris

Dave Burrows wrote:

> I think other people on the net would be
> prepared to read this more because it's coming from other photographers who
> have experienced knowledge in these areas.  If it's on similar lines to the
> current manuals, I would hazard a guess that most people surfing in to the
> website would leave quite quickly, because most have already got a paper
> manual that says similar things.
>
> What do others think ?!

Hi Dave,

I kindly disagree with you. The main reason for setting these
manuals online is for those who don't have the paper manual and
do not want to pay the ridiculous fee just to get one. Remember,
our original intent was to put scanned copies of the paper
manuals online. With this in mind, we should adhere as much as
possible to a strict "equipment manual" format. User comments
could be used as supplmentary material to give the audience a
fuller understanding of how the equipment is used real-world, but
it should not be the center of our attention.

Does anyone else have an opinion about this? It's not exactly an
unimportant topic. It'll dramatically affect the kind of site we
end up with.

bye,
Chris

>
> Hi Fernando,
>
>    You know ASP database stuff, which is exactly what Dave Burrows has at
> Photoarena.  Can you two collaborate on this?  (I admit I don't know ASP,
and
> my SQL is very poor)  This will be important later on as we generate more
(some :-)
> content.

Hi Julian

Yes I will be very happy to colaborate in ASP programming (Dave, please tell
me if you need my help, I will be very glad to help you in this stuff). I
also use ASP with MS Access in 'small' sites (and I think this is going to
be the case, at least for now), if the number of documents get very big, it
will be better to use SQL Server instead of Access if this is possible, but
I think ASP and Access are more than enough for now, and that we all must be
very thankfull to Dave by giving us so many resources for free (THANKS
DAVE!)
And thanks to you too Julian you are also making a GREAT WORK here,
coordinating this job! This seems like the Linux project, I hope we get as
good results as they have!

>
>     I agree that we should not post the scanned articles until we hear
back from
> Canon through Bill Anderson.  In the meantime, I suggest to start making
> summaries of an existing manual.
>

I will begin to make a draft of the EOS600/630 next week, when I have it I
post a message here. I have a manual in Spanish, so I also must translate
it, not only paraphrase it, it will take a little more time. I pretend to
include more information I found in the net about it. I think the idea of
putting pratical examlpes of the use of the equipment is excelent, but we
can't do everything at the same time. I will try to adapt the manual in the
future, using this idea (pratical examples of using the camera, what
settings do I use when I use the flash and why, bounce flash vs. not
bounced, etc, if possible with examples). The idea of putting examples is
great, but we need to scan and put online more photos, with good and bad
examples, so we need to make also some bad examples (I hope that everyone
can find good examples in their actual photos), and this takes time.

Fernando

>| Julian Loke wrote:
>| Please pick a manual that you would like to start work on.  Announce it to
>| the group in case someone else would like to share the workload (e.g. each
>| person does 5 pages).
>| I suggest choosing a small manual (e.g. a lens) to start.

"Bob Turner" <bob-turner@...>
> I will volunteer to do the IX7 manual as the rest are pretty well covered by
> others. I require some guidance of what is required here, so any help is
> appreciated. I have the IX7 Manual in English and French, are both required?

Hi Bob,

    I will continue as coordinating until the first sign of a replacement.  I was
hoping
someone with more computer or legal background would be better :-)

    I think English is a good place to start unless you are more fluent in
French.
To indicate to others on this group that you are working on the IX7, enter
yourself
in the Activity database:
http://www.egroups.com/database/eosdoc?method=reportRows&tbl=2

    People would then know to contact you, to help proofread or add or draw
pictures or they may offer to help out if you are stuck.

    When you have a draft, I suggest that you create a folder called IX7 under
http://www.egroups.com/files/eosdoc/Bodies/

Cheers and good luck
Julian Loke
P.S. A lens manual would be shorter and a draft is much easier to finish.
Lots of people have the EF 50 f/1.8.  Anyone want to start on that one?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Fernando Gomes" <f.m.gomes@...> ...
> As I said at the beginning, I want to actively collaborate in this project.
> I have not much 'spare' time to it, but I will do as much as I can.
> I have experience in developing web applications, mostly database oriented
> ones with dynamic contents (using asp, php3 or perl). I suppose that we
> can't use any of this in the site we are going to use. Of course I can
> program in straight HTML (but I'm no 'web designer', so don't expect to
> fancy pages)! ...

"Dave Burrows" <subscriptions@...> wrote: ...
>> Currently the forums are using access databases with ASP front ends.  These
>> can be converted to SQL later on if problems start occuring.  Reason why I'm
>> using access currently is that we can have multiple databases, or one
>> database in every directory, and one will not affect the other.  i.e. if one
>> of the databases corrupts, it won't bring the others down with it. ...

Hi Fernando,

    You know ASP database stuff, which is exactly what Dave Burrows has at
Photoarena.  Can you two collaborate on this?  (I admit I don't know ASP, and
my SQL is very poor)  This will be important later on as we generate more (some
:-)
content.

     I agree that we should not post the scanned articles until we hear back from
Canon through Bill Anderson.  In the meantime, I suggest to start making
summaries of an existing manual.

Cheers
Julian Loke

>> I will volunteer to do the IX7 manual as the rest are pretty well covered
by
others. I require some guidance of what is required here, so any help is
appreciated. I have the IX7 Manual in English and French, are both required?
<<

Bob, I don't know how much yourself and others on this fastly growing list
have seen Phil Greenspun's website photo.net, but personally, I would take
this type of strategy in writing the manual...

I'm sure people could explain under and over exposure and different light,
flash scenarios, compositions with their own pictures much better than the
manuals currently can.  I also think that the manuals could also be worded
not in a 'professional manual' type way, but in a 'when I go out in direct
sunlight, I prefer to do this', or 'when using flash, I tend to set these
exposures', or 'I tend to try and use CF's on my A2E, 3, to provide better
ways of photographing subjects' get the idea ?  Also to back this up with
your own scaled down pictures.  I think other people on the net would be
prepared to read this more because it's coming from other photographers who
have experienced knowledge in these areas.  If it's on similar lines to the
current manuals, I would hazard a guess that most people surfing in to the
website would leave quite quickly, because most have already got a paper
manual that says similar things.

What do others think ?!

Dave Burrows

Hi All,

| Please pick a manual that you would like to start work on.  Announce it to
the group
| in case someone else would like to share the workload (e.g. each person
does 5 pages).
| I suggest choosing a small manual (e.g. a lens) to start.
|

I will volunteer to do the IX7 manual as the rest are pretty well covered by
others. I require some guidance of what is required here, so any help is
appreciated. I have the IX7 Manual in English and French, are both required?

| If anyone would like to function as coordinator, please speak up.  We can
go through
| a process of nominations, seconding, etc

May I suggest that You, Julian, have the experience and that you are doing a
great job at the moment?

Bob Turner
Dundee, Scotland, U.K.
Website : http://website.lineone.net/~bob-turner

.

Hi Julian,

>>   Is there any facility on the photoarena site for database oriented
content?
This would be very important.  I know that Phil Greenspun has open-source
code for his photo.net stuff.  What does Chris Bitmead use for his Techphoto
site? <<

Currently the forums are using access databases with ASP front ends.  These
can be converted to SQL later on if problems start occuring.  Reason why I'm
using access currently is that we can have multiple databases, or one
database in every directory, and one will not affect the other.  i.e. if one
of the databases corrupts, it won't bring the others down with it.

What I would *like* to do, is something like Phil does at photo.net (but not
copy it directly!) and that's to dedicate a website section/directory to a
specific user (i.e. for EOS3 manual), give them a logon and the webpage
tools, and they can write their own articles with formatted text (offline),
and create links to other pages.  This way users would not have to use HTML
editors.  Just knock out their articles in a text editor, (with specific
coding for bold, italics etc), and then COPY | PASTE into the web tools
page.  I'd like to also create comments to the pages where other users can
or cannot (in some cases) create comments and reply to the original author.

This isn't setup at the moment, and I'll be actively looking into this over
the next week.  I believe there are already on-the-fly databases around the
net that we could pick up with minor modifications, so I might look at doing
this rather than sitting down for several weeks hard coding it.  If people
didn't want to use the webpage tools, then they could just FTP their
articles into the directory structure and do it that way.  Best of both
worlds...

Dave Burrows

Hi Everyone at eosdoc,

By looking at the expertise database, I could see that only I have access to the
430EZ.
http://www.egroups.com/database/eosdoc?method=reportRows&tbl=1

The 430EZ is 88 pages cover to cover, with interspersed English French and
Spanish.
I have reached page 25 so far, and have included four "Scanner art" pictures of
my
430 EZ flash.

Please have a look at my draft at:
http://www.egroups.com/files/eosdoc/Flash/430EZ/

Please send comments about the 430EZ to the eosdoc list.

There are now 12 members.  The membership roster is at:
http://www.egroups.com/members/eosdoc
Please pick a manual that you would like to start work on.  Announce it to the
group
in case someone else would like to share the workload (e.g. each person does 5
pages).
I suggest choosing a small manual (e.g. a lens) to start.

If anyone would like to function as coordinator, please speak up.  We can go
through
a process of nominations, seconding, etc.

Cheers
Julian Loke

From: <SudaMafud@...>
To: <jul.loke@...>
Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 1:30 PM
Subject: Re: EOS: Re: "EOS Documentation Project"


> In a message dated 4/29/00 10:11:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> jul.loke@... writes:
>
> <<  Imagine: a flash manual which has an explanation of how to do manual flash
>  exposure!   >>
>  I can send that right NOW!
> It's called "MANUAL FILL FLASH FOR DUUMIES"

Hi Mafud,

    Don't distribute just yet.  Look for someone to help revise and format it for
HTML
at eosdoc@egroups.com. Remember, this project is cooperative and voluntary.
Don't forget to put that all important copyright notice.

    I am working on a paraphrased very rough draft of the 430EZ manual.  See what
else
is going on at:
http://www.egroups.com/messages/eosdoc

Cheers
Julian Loke

From: "Fernando Gomes" <f.m.gomes@...>
To: <eosdoc@egroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 7:27 PM
Subject: [eosdoc] Re: EOS Documentation Project


> Hi EOSDocers
>
> As I said at the beginning, I want to actively collaborate in this project.
> I have not much 'spare' time to it, but I will do as much as I can.
> I have experience in developing web applications, mostly database oriented
> ones with dynamic contents (using asp, php3 or perl). I suppose that we
> can't use any of this in the site we are going to use. Of course I can
> program in straight HTML (but I'm no 'web designer', so don't expect to
> fancy pages)!

Hi Fernando and Dave Burrows,

    Is there any facility on the photoarena site for database oriented content?
This would be very important.  I know that Phil Greenspun has open-source
code for his photo.net stuff.  What does Chris Bitmead use for his Techphoto
site?

Cheers
Julian Loke

From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" <w.j.markerink@...>
To: <eos@...>
Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 10:26 AM
Subject: Re: EOS: Re: "EOS Documentation Project"

> On 29 Apr 00 at 8:37, Julian Loke wrote:
> >    For those rushing into posting scanned PDF files online, watch out for
the
> > MP3.COM story.  That company has just been found liable for copyright
> > infringment.  The penalties have not yet been set, but could range from
> > $USD 1.2 billion to $USD 240 billion !!!   See:
> > http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2557555,00.html
>
> The difference being is that Canon suffers no damage *whatsoever*
> when manuals are put online.
> Personally I won't touch any project that involves rewriting the
> manuals....even less when it involves one page per individual, or any
> other massive inefficient concept, requiring tons of overhead.
> Scan the manuals, and add improvements, or point out errors and
> omissions....I'd be surprised if Canon would ever act on such
> 'copyright' issues. Especially if it is spread over various sites,
> and not concentrated on one site for commercial purposes. All you
> need then is a central page linking every site with online manuals.
> Rewriting manuals is reinventing the wheel, and ending up with a
> square one. A semi-legal round one runs much smoother....;-))
> Note that the issue with "The Impossible Picture" is quite
> different, since there are photographer/editors involved,
> folks not working for Canon, only hired at that time.
>

Hi WJM,

    We're not only concerned about Canon, but also Hove, Magic Lantern,
and EOS Magazine amongst others.  There are also other people who
make money from selling photocopies of old manuals (where do they pay
their copyright royalties?)

    There is also the issue about bandwidth.  The same information in text
or HTML takes much less room than a scanned copy.  Another good
thing about text is that it can be searched.  (How else can I find the
good stuff on your monster WJM website :-)

    Finally, the ethical problem as photographers who asking others to respect
the copyright on our images.

    I suspect that the "overhead" could be quite small.  After all, that
newsprint A3 spread lens manual doesn't really have all that many ideas
in it.  How many ways can you turn an EF 50mm f/1.8 II ?

    Anyone interested in participating is welcome to join.  We will need
people who have read the manuals, people who have used the equipment
and know how it works, and also picky people who can help proofread :-)

Sign-up here with a web browser
http://www.egroups.com/subscribe/eosdoc

OR send e-mail to:
mailto:eosdoc-subscribe@egroups.com

Expertise database (manuals in you have in your possession):
http://www.egroups.com/database/eosdoc?method=reportRows&tbl=1

Activity database (what's being coded, what's finished):
http://www.egroups.com/database/eosdoc?method=reportRows&tbl=2

Cheers
Julian Loke

From: "Fernando Gomes" <f.m.gomes@...>
To: <eosdoc@egroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 10:05 AM
Subject: Re: [eosdoc] Re: RE: Online Manuals


> But from previous posts in this list it seems that we are not going to put
> the scanned manuals online so this isn't a problem
> I can also make a OCR on the manual, but I haven't made it yet (if we are
> going to write new manuals, I think this is a good place to start)
> I think we might also think of what is the best organization to a manual, I
> think that the Canon manuals are not so great...
> Fernando Gomes

Hi Fernando,

    You have some really great ideas here.  The OCR bit might be more
trouble that it is worth, since OCR usually works best at 300dpi.

    The organization of the Canon manual can be improved upon.
Can you think of a good structure for a generic body manual?

Here's my first draft for an outline.  Please change it a lot and repost
back to the eosdoc list:

Generic EDP manual
1) Naming the Parts
2) Abstract / Fast start (Point and shoot in 60 seconds)
3) Focus
4) Meter
5) Shutter
6) Flash
7) Special functions
8) Technical Specifications
9) Links and Updates

Cheers
Julian Loke

----- Original Message -----
Dave Burrows <subscriptions@...> wrote:
> I've created an FTP/WEB site for anyone to upload files to if they
> wish.
> ftp.photoarena.co.uk
> username=eosdoc
> password=eosdoc
> http://www.photoarena.co.uk/eosdoc
> ...

Hi Dave (and Chris Daida, Bill Anderson, Keith Green, and ZhangJJ)

     Thanks everyone for joining this project.  I invited others too and
they may join later.  If they do, the old messages are in the archive:
http://www.egroups.com/messages/eosdoc

    It looks from the database that there is a good mix of material.  If
we need more, the group can approach the eos/eos3/eos1v lists or
forums:
http://www.egroups.com/database/eosdoc?method=reportRows&tbl=1

    I will start paraphrasing my 430EZ manual, since it appears no-one
else has that one.  To prevent duplication of effort, I have set up another
database.

    By the way, anyone can add tables or folders in the eGroups file
system up to maximum of 20Mb.  Bigger files will need to go to
Dave Burrows ftp site:
ftp://eosdoc:eosdoc@ftp.photoarena.co.uk

Cheers
Julian Loke

Hi Julian

I think the manual has 63 pages, it wasn't me that scanned it, since I have
no manual, I got it from someone in a Portuguese newsgroup, that has done
all the work. It started at 72 dpi, but when printing, the result was not
good so he scanned again at 300dpi, and it's nice.
He hasn't dismanled the booklet, so I needed to make some croping and
adjustments to get a decent images
I put all the images in a word file because I have changed my PC and still
haven't installed the Adobe Acrobat, so it was the fastest way to print all
the pictures. As I have told in the previous mail, to make a document with
all the scanned pictures I think it will be better to use PDF instead of
Word, but still mantain the HTML access to every page (or chapter). The PDF
will be an easy way to download and print all the manual (with HTML is more
dificult)
But from previous posts in this list it seems that we are not going to put
the scanned manuals online so this isn't a problem
I can also make a OCR on the manual, but I haven't made it yet (if we are
going to write new manuals, I think this is a good place to start)
I think we might also think of what is the best organization to a manual, I
think that the Canon manuals are not so great...

Fernando Gomes

----- Original Message -----
From: Julian Loke <jul.loke@...>
To: <eosdoc@egroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 2:00 AM
Subject: [eosdoc] Re: RE: Online Manuals


> From: "Fernando Gomes" <f.m.gomes@...>
> To: "Julian Loke" <jul.loke@...>
> Sent: Friday, April 28, 2000 5:25 AM
> Subject: EOS: RE: Online Manuals
>
>
> > Hi Julian
> > I can create this EOS documentation site, if you are interested. I need
the
> > help of the 'EOSers' in order to get more manuals... I currently have
the
> > EOS600 (Spanish version) already scanned, I could also get the EOS10
(also
> > Spanish), the EOS500N (Portuguese), 540EZ (English), I have to scan
them.
> > The EOS600 is in MSWord format, but I will manage to generate a PDF (I
hope)
> > from the images...
> > Is there any interest in a site like this? I don't want to build such a
site
> > if there are no interest about it! For what I have seen in this list,
the
> > requests for EOS600/630/RT user manuals is very big, so I think there is
> > indeed a need for a site like this
>
> Hi Fernando,
>
>   Thanks for your input.  We are just starting to meet at the
eosdoc@egroups.com
> I will enter your list of manuals in the Expertise database.
>
>   How big is the 630 manual? (how many pages/words)? Can you tell us how
you
> did to do the scanning?  Did you have to dismantle the booklet staples?
Did you
> use Optical Character Recognition (OCR)?  Why did you use MS Word?
>
> Cheers
> Julian Loke
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> eosdoc-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
>

Hi EOSDocers

As I said at the beginning, I want to actively collaborate in this project.
I have not much 'spare' time to it, but I will do as much as I can.
I have experience in developing web applications, mostly database oriented
ones with dynamic contents (using asp, php3 or perl). I suppose that we
can't use any of this in the site we are going to use. Of course I can
program in straight HTML (but I'm no 'web designer', so don't expect to
fancy pages)!
I can scan the manuals I have (but the equipment sold at Portugal has
normally the manuals in Portuguese or Spanish). I have some items that I
bought in other places (Hong-Kong, Germany), they have manuals in English.
I can make PDFs out of the scanned images, if this is going to be the way we
all agree, we must also agree in the resolution (300dpi for the PDF images
and 72 for the 'online' images as someone sgested seems to me a good place
to start).
If we don't put the manuals online (copyright problems), I can also make
some Internet/Friends research to make some manuals from the information I
found. I was starting to make that for the information I have for the
EOS600/630, even after putting the manual online - there are much more
interesting information on the eos mailing list about the camera than on the
Canon Manual, if we know  the eos equipment philosophy
I think that one of us could make a first try making a first site following
what we must agreed first (to scan or not to scan) in order to be criticised
by all the others, and this first try could be used as a site template, the
others should follow a similar aproach to the site to other bodies, flashes
lens, etc.

Manuals I have
EOS600/630 - Spanish
EOS500N/Rebel G - Portuguese
540EZ - English
EF50mm f1.8 mkII - English

Related manuals
SCA312AF - English - This is the Metz adapter to the Canon EOS Bodies, it
also has a AF light assist beam
Cullman CX40 Datazoom - English - This is a flash that I use with the module
above in my Canon EOS Cameras

Research already done
Mostly about EOS600/630, since I bought mine recently, this is the place
where I can start

Hope this thoughts help to get this project going

(and thanks Julian to put this mailing list at eGroups, so we can discuss
this subject without disturbing the regular content of the EOS mailing
list...)

Fernando Gomes

>     Anyone interested in participating should sign up there and work out
organizational
> aspects (e.g. the human resources, who has what manual, goals, division of
labour,
> file format, etc. etc.).
>
>    I think someone should be nominated as an unofficial project leader.
Any volunteers?
> Perhaps someone who with a prior experience? WJM? Bill Anderson? Fernando
Gomes?
> Dave Burrows? Terry Carroll? (and everyone else I didn't mention)
>
> Cheers
> Julian Loke
> Follow-ups mailto:eosdoc@egroups.com please
>
>

From: "ANDERSON,BILL D. (HP-Boise,ex1)" <bill_d_anderson@...>
To: "'Julian Loke'" <jul.loke@...>
Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 3:59 AM
Subject: RE: Online Manuals [Website]


> Julian,
> I have subscribed to the EosDoc eGroup and added my information to the
> database. Thanks for setting this up (If it is your doing).
> I agree on the copyrights. My wife is a lawyer, so she is forcing me to get
> Canon's OK before I put anything up on the web. I will try to get a hold of
> them on Monday.
> Bill
> ______________________________________________________________
> William D. Anderson             bill_d_anderson@...
> Software Engineer
> Hewlett-Packard

Hi Bill,

    Your wife is right (wives usually are!).  There is an issue of
self-preservation;
by staying clear of the law, we can avoid getting our computers impounded.
But then it might keep your wife busy :-)

    My experience is that Canon is unlikely or unable to provide copyright
permission (Canon all over the world).  Or there may be a fee involved, which
is not in the spirit of this internet collaboration. (Using donated resources
and
expertise from all of us, including ftp/webspace by Dave Burrows).

    I respectfully suggest that the format for the EDP should be HTML and not
PDF or TIFF.  Here are my reasons:

1) HTML text is small.  Scanned bit-image files are *very* large. Small = less
bandwidth; loads fast.  (Yes, I have broadband internet access, but many don't).

2) HTML is straightforward to maintain, with tools accessible to everyone.
From the simplest text editor; or freeware HTML editor (I use AOLPress);
or even MSWord etc. PDF is harder and more platform dependent (at work
the Mac PDFs and Win PDFs are annoyingly different).

3) It is possible to automatically translate HTML to PDF but not the other
way. However the tools to do so are not freely accessible.

4) HTML viewers are available on more computer platforms than PDF.

5) Using HTML forces us to focus more on content than on presentation,
although both are eventually important.

6) A web page can do things that PDF and paper cannot.  Pictures,
Animation, sound, intertactive content is possible.

7) Most important is that HTML is not static.  Corrections can be applied
(interactively would be best, like photo.net).  "ECF cumulative calibration"
and supertele "IS on tripod" comes to mind.

8) HTML allows us to recycle material.  E.g. The EF bayonet mount is
operated in the same way on all cameras.  Flash is mounted in the same
way.

What do you think?

Cheers
Julian Loke

I've created an FTP/WEB site for anyone to upload files to if they
wish.

ftp.photoarena.co.uk
username=eosdoc
password=eosdoc

http://www.photoarena.co.uk/eosdoc

I've set aside 1GB of storage space for web and ftp.  This should be
a bit of an overkill, but it's there if it's needed.

If you are going to upload any files, can you please create a
directory with your name, and place any files under this. That way if
multiple people are working on the same manuals, files won't
accidentally get overwritten.

If anyone has a better idea, please let me know.

Please mail me if you get any problems with this
dave@....

>> Thanks to everyone that offered to help with the EOS documentation project.

There seems to have sufficient interest to get started.  I wish the project
as
much success as GNU Linux.<<

Sounds like we could have something going here!

>> I think someone should be nominated as an unofficial project leader.  Any

volunteers?  Perhaps someone who with a prior experience? WJM? Bill Anderson?
Fernando Gomes? Dave Burrows? Terry Carroll? (and everyone else I didn't
mention)<<


I don't mind pulling everything together into HTML onto a website.  Haven't
really worked with creating PDF's though.

I'll create an FTP account at ftp://ftp.photoarena.co.uk so that people can
upload anything they've got.

Dave Burrows

From: "Fernando Gomes" <f.m.gomes@...>
To: "Julian Loke" <jul.loke@...>
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2000 5:25 AM
Subject: EOS: RE: Online Manuals


> Hi Julian
> I can create this EOS documentation site, if you are interested. I need the
> help of the 'EOSers' in order to get more manuals... I currently have the
> EOS600 (Spanish version) already scanned, I could also get the EOS10 (also
> Spanish), the EOS500N (Portuguese), 540EZ (English), I have to scan them.
> The EOS600 is in MSWord format, but I will manage to generate a PDF (I hope)
> from the images...
> Is there any interest in a site like this? I don't want to build such a site
> if there are no interest about it! For what I have seen in this list, the
> requests for EOS600/630/RT user manuals is very big, so I think there is
> indeed a need for a site like this

Hi Fernando,

   Thanks for your input.  We are just starting to meet at the eosdoc@egroups.com
I will enter your list of manuals in the Expertise database.

   How big is the 630 manual? (how many pages/words)? Can you tell us how you
did to do the scanning?  Did you have to dismantle the booklet staples?  Did you
use Optical Character Recognition (OCR)?  Why did you use MS Word?

Cheers
Julian Loke

Welcome to the EDP (EOS Documentation Project),

There are 5 members so far.  You can see who else is here by visiting:
http://www.egroups.com/members/eosdoc

Others have indicated on the EOS List they are interested in helping,
and will receive an e-mail invitation to join the eosdoc list in the near
future.

I suggest that new members check the Expertise database at:
http://www.egroups.com/database/eosdoc?method=reportRows&tbl=1
and enter a list of manuals or equipment that you are familiar with.
That way, everyone can see at a glance what resources are available.

What do you think is the first manual we should tackle as a pilot?

Also, who wants to be the coordinator?  I can switch the "moderator"
switch on (i.e. give them the keys to eosdoc@egroups.com)

Cheers
Julian Loke

From: "Gerry Morgan" <gerrym@...>
To: <eosdoc@egroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:20 PM
Subject: [eosdoc] Re: EOS Documentation Project


> Here is a list of manuals that I have:
>    - EOS 650
>    - EOS 630
>    - EOS 3
>    - Speedlight 380EX
>    - Speedlight 550EX
> And various lenses, but I don't know if we are aiming to put lens
> manuals online. If so, my lenses include the 180mm L macro and the
> 100-400 L IS.
> I don't have time to do coordination at the moment, but I'd be
> willing to paraphrase sections of the manuals.

Hi Gerry,

    Thanks for your interest.  At the present, we are just marshalling our
resources so that there is reasonable division of labour and one or two
people don't get burnt out.

    I added your name to the Expertise database. Anyone can access or
modify the information on the table to keep it up to date.  All members
should check their own entries at:
http://www.egroups.com/database/eosdoc?method=reportRows&tbl=1
so that everyone involved in the project can see at a glance what manuals
are available to work on.

Cheers
Julian Loke

--- In eosdoc@egroups.com, "Julian Loke" <jul.loke@u...> wrote:
>     Anyone interested in participating should sign up there and
>work out organizational aspects (e.g. the human resources, who has
>what manual, goals, division of labour, file format, etc. etc.).

Here is a list of manuals that I have:

    - EOS 650
    - EOS 630
    - EOS 3
    - Speedlight 380EX
    - Speedlight 550EX

And various lenses, but I don't know if we are aiming to put lens
manuals online. If so, my lenses include the 180mm L macro and the
100-400 L IS.

I don't have time to do coordination at the moment, but I'd be
willing to paraphrase sections of the manuals.

Gerry

From: "Bob Turner" <bob-turner@...> wrote:
> One other organisation to bear in mind with the copyright thing is Robert
> Scott at EOS Magazine. Over the years the magazine has compiled a vast
> knowledge of everything EOS and we may be treading on his toes with this.
> It may be prudent to speak with him regards to copyright and he also, if
> agreeable, may provide some archived material from the back issues.
> Just a thought (and I know he monitors this list).
> Bob Turner
> Dundee, Scotland, U.K.
> Website : http://website.lineone.net/~bob-turner

Hi Bob,

   I don't think that Robert Scott and the team at the Old Barn have anything
to fear from the EDP.

    Like many other companies and individuals (as listed at
http://www.smu.edu/~rmonagha/mf/manuals.html) they will still have a
market for "real" manuals.  And Magic Lantern and Hove manuals will still
be sold.

    Don't forget that this is a volunteer project.  Our budget $0 will probably
result in manuals that are more like sophisticated but functional cheat
sheets than a glossy coffee table book.  The advantage of an online manual
is the hyperlinks, and interaction (like photo.net).

Cheers
Julian Loke
P.S. Please add your name to the "Expertise" database at:
http://egroups.com/database/eosdoc?method=reportRows&tbl=1
That way we can see how many manuals we have access to in this group.

Hi everyone,

    Thanks to everyone that offered to help with the EOS documentation project.
There seems to have sufficient interest to get started.  I wish the project as
much
success as GNU Linux.

     To facilitate communication, I used the free (i.e. advertising driven)
services at
eGroups to create a new eosdoc.  There is space there to store files (up to
20Mb),
create a database of what original manuals to which the group has access, etc.
http://egroups.com/subscribe/eosdoc
http://egroups.com/group/eosdoc

     Anyone interested in participating should sign up there and work out
organizational
aspects (e.g. the human resources, who has what manual, goals, division of
labour,
file format, etc. etc.).

    I think someone should be nominated as an unofficial project leader.  Any
volunteers?
Perhaps someone who with a prior experience? WJM? Bill Anderson? Fernando Gomes?
Dave Burrows? Terry Carroll? (and everyone else I didn't mention)

Cheers
Julian Loke
Follow-ups mailto:eosdoc@egroups.com please