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#15171 From: "ed4linda" <ed4linda@...>
Date: Sat Feb 6, 2010 3:02 pm
Subject: New Mayan Inscription Wall Found
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#15170 From: Roderick Schmidt <inyotep@...>
Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 9:30 pm
Subject: Re: Row Between the British Museum & Iran Over Epigraphic Artifacts
inyotep
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This is not at all surprising. The Brits are full of refusals to return the artifacs stolen over the centuries. The British Museum is prejudiced to the maximum and reacts negatively
to reasonable requests.
RS
--- On Sat, 1/23/10, ed4linda <ed4linda@...> wrote:

From: ed4linda <ed4linda@...>
Subject: [epigraphy] Row Between the British Museum & Iran Over Epigraphic Artifacts
To: epigraphy@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, January 23, 2010, 7:08 PM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/jan/24/cyrus-cylinder-iran-museum-row



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#15169 From: "Bart Torbert" <barthome1@...>
Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:17 am
Subject: RE: Jamestown Tablet an American Rosetta Stone?
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From what I understand the script was consonants only.  Hariot added some notation to indicate the proper vowels in a word.  This was rather like what the Masoretes did  with the Jewish alphabet.  I think Hariot was a missionary. So he would have known about what the Masoretes and this might have inspired him to make his modifications.

Bart

 

 

From: epigraphy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:epigraphy@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris Patenaude
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2010 6:08 PM
To: epigraphy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [epigraphy] Jamestown Tablet an American Rosetta Stone?

 

 

The historians still haven't caught onto the continued misconception that Hariot 'invented' the Algonquin syllabary. If you talk to the Algonquin and Ojibway Traditionalists, you'll learn that the NE Natives were using the letters centuries before Columbus. It is used in their Midewiwin Medicine Lodge to create phonic, linear-literate labels on their training scroll illustrations, and has been as long as they can remember. The natives taught the syllabary to Hariot who only (barely) modified it.

So of course it can be reasoned, that as soon as the Jamestown folk showed the locals the bi-lingual dictionaries they had, there was instant communication, because the Indians could read their own script quite well.

To find more about the Mic Mac script, you can search many articles in E.S.O.P.
One specific letter to the editor appeared in Volume 15, (1986) pg 30


How Old Is The Cree Syllabary?

A few years ago a Cree elder of the

James Bay area told me a surprising thing, he

said:

“The Cree syllabary was given to us by an

ancient ancestor, long before the modern

whites got here.  Some white priest had

taken the credit, and this is a white man’s lie.”

I also heard a similar version from a

Chippewyan in the far north of

Saskatchewan. Could there be any truth in

this story?

                  H.C. Meyer

                  Toronto, Ontario

[Fell, as editor of ESOP replied]

It  is true that the Cree Syllabary has now

been traced back in inscriptions from the

Bronze Age in both Tras-os-Montes, in

Portugal, and in Ontario, Canada. It was also

in use in Basque Spain a century before

Columbus. See the article by Dr. Agire in this

issue, and Chapter 6 of Bronze Age America.

[The indicated article discusses petroglyphic inscriptions

found in Portugal and their sharp similarity to

the Canadian native scripts. -cap]


-c

--- On Sat, 1/16/10, awendawn <awendawn@...> wrote:


From: awendawn <awendawn@...>
Subject: [epigraphy] Jamestown Tablet an American Rosetta Stone?
To: epigraphy@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, January 16, 2010, 12:14 PM


#15168 From: "ed4linda" <ed4linda@...>
Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:08 am
Subject: Row Between the British Museum & Iran Over Epigraphic Artifacts
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#15167 From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
Date: Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:08 am
Subject: Re: Jamestown Tablet an American Rosetta Stone?
yacrispyubetcha
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The historians still haven't caught onto the continued misconception that Hariot 'invented' the Algonquin syllabary. If you talk to the Algonquin and Ojibway Traditionalists, you'll learn that the NE Natives were using the letters centuries before Columbus. It is used in their Midewiwin Medicine Lodge to create phonic, linear-literate labels on their training scroll illustrations, and has been as long as they can remember. The natives taught the syllabary to Hariot who only (barely) modified it.

So of course it can be reasoned, that as soon as the Jamestown folk showed the locals the bi-lingual dictionaries they had, there was instant communication, because the Indians could read their own script quite well.

To find more about the Mic Mac script, you can search many articles in E.S.O.P.
One specific letter to the editor appeared in Volume 15, (1986) pg 30

How Old Is The Cree Syllabary?

 

A few years ago a Cree elder of the

James Bay area told me a surprising thing, he

said:

 

“The Cree syllabary was given to us by an

ancient ancestor, long before the modern

whites got here.  Some white priest had

taken the credit, and this is a white man’s lie.”

 

I also heard a similar version from a

Chippewyan in the far north of

Saskatchewan. Could there be any truth in

this story?

 

                  H.C. Meyer

                  Toronto, Ontario

 

[Fell, as editor of ESOP replied]

It  is true that the Cree Syllabary has now

been traced back in inscriptions from the

Bronze Age in both Tras-os-Montes, in

Portugal, and in Ontario, Canada. It was also

in use in Basque Spain a century before

Columbus. See the article by Dr. Agire in this

issue, and Chapter 6 of Bronze Age America.

 

[The indicated article discusses petroglyphic inscriptions

found in Portugal and their sharp similarity to

the Canadian native scripts. -cap]


-c

--- On Sat, 1/16/10, awendawn <awendawn@...> wrote:

From: awendawn <awendawn@...>
Subject: [epigraphy] Jamestown Tablet an American Rosetta Stone?
To: epigraphy@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, January 16, 2010, 12:14 PM


#15166 From: "awendawn" <awendawn@...>
Date: Sat Jan 16, 2010 6:14 pm
Subject: Jamestown Tablet an American Rosetta Stone?
awendawn
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Mysterious

 

 

Jamestown Tablet an American Rosetta Stone?

Slate may show early colonist efforts to communicate with Indians.

Jamestown tablet picture: Seventeenth-century slate is shown in a photograph and a digital enhancement emphasizing inscriptions.

A conservator digitally isolated inscriptions (right) on the 17th-century Jamestown tablet (left).

Photograph courtesy Preservation Virginia

1609-10 Jamestown tablet picture showing detail of inscription

Detail of inscriptions

Photograph courtesy Smithsonian Museum Conservation Institute and Preservation Virginia

Paula Neely

for National Geographic magazine

January 13, 2010

With the help of enhanced imagery and an expert in Elizabethan script, archaeologists are beginning to unravel the meaning of mysterious text and images etched into a rare 400-year-old slate tablet discovered this past summer at Jamestown, Virginia, the first permanent English settlement in America.

Digitally enhanced images of the slate are helping to isolate inscriptions and illuminate fine details on the slatethe first with extensive inscriptions discovered at any early American colonial site, said William Kelso, director of research and interpretation at the 17th-century Historic Jamestowne site (Jamestown map).

(Explore an interactive guide to colonial Jamestown.)

The enhancements have helped researchers identify a 16th-century writing style used on the slate and discern new symbols, researchers announced last week. The characters may be from an obscure Algonquian Indian alphabet created by an English scientist to help explorers pronounce the language spoken by the Virginia Indians.

"Just like finding the Rosetta Stone led to a better understanding of the Egyptians, this tablet is beginning to add significantly to our understanding of the earliest years at Jamestown," Kelso said. It conveys messages about literacy, art, symbols and signs personally communicated by the colonists who used it, he explained.

"What other single artifact has been found that has so much to tell?"

Both sides of the scratched and worn 5-by-8 inch (13-by-20 centimeter) tablet are covered with words, symbols, numbers, and drawings of people, plants, and birds that its owner or other users likely encountered in the New World.

There are differences in the style of handwriting, which may mean that more than one person used the tablet as a sketch pad and possibly for writing rough drafts of documents, Kelso noted.

Enhanced Images

To help researchers decipher the inscriptions, curators at the Smithsonian Institution's Museum Conservation Institute recently produced enhanced images of the slate through a process known as reflectance transformation imaging.

Hundreds of high-resolution digital images were taken of the tablet using multiple angled lights to exaggerate the appearance of grooves in the slate's surfacelike watching the sun rise and set on an object.

The images on the slate are difficult to see with the naked eye, because they are the same dark gray color as the slate and they overlap.

Colonists would have written on it with a pencil made of slate that left white marks. The marks could be wiped off, but fortunately for archaeologists today, the pencil had a sharp point that also left scratches on the tablet that couldn't be erased completely. As a result, there are layers upon layers of inscriptions.

Elizabethan Script Analysis

Based on an initial examination of images, Heather Wolfe, curator of manuscripts and an expert in Elizabethan script at the Folger Shakespeare Library in Washington, D.C., thinks that much of the cursive writing on the slate appears to be written in secretary hand, the main form of cursive handwriting taught in England during the early 16th and 17th centuries.

"Many of the letter forms are different from the forms used today. You need special training to understand them," Wolfe said.

So far, the words "Abraham" and "book" appear to be visible, and she has been able to identify some individual letters. She hopes to be able to decipher more of the text using the images taken by the Smithsonian that provide finer details. Unfortunately only a portion of the text survived; parts of letters and some words are missing.

Wolfe explained that the practice of using erasable slates for drafting music and teaching the alphabet and spelling goes back to the 16th and 17th centuries, but they were so fragile, they usually broke.

Finding a largely intact slate like this one is "very rare," Wolfe said. "The slate provides a unique window into a practice that we've known about, but that we haven't seen before."

Algonquian Pronunciation Symbols

Historic Jamestowne's Kelso said the enhanced images also revealed two symbols that are similar to characters in a phonetic Algonquian alphabet invented in 1585 by Thomas Hariot.

The English scientist participated in the expedition to establish an ill-fated colony on Roanoke Islandin what is now North Carolinafor his patron, Sir Walter Raleigh, that same year. (Related: "Search for America's 'Lost Colony' Gets New Boost.")

It wasn't until after archaeologists had discovered the slate that Kelso was made aware of the 36-character alphabet by a researcher attending one of Kelso's lectures. The alphabet survives as a manuscript in the library of the Westminster School in London.

Kelso said there are also documented references to a dictionary of the Algonquian language, which some scholars think Hariot developed, since he had had the opportunity to learn the language from Native Americans who returned to England with the explorers.  Fire destroyed the dictionary in 1666, and there are no surviving copies, he said.

"When I found out about it," Kelso said, "the probability that the European explorers likely showed up at Jamestown with bilingual dictionaries, ready to communicate with the Indians, made perfect sense," he said.

Other details revealed through the enhanced images will help researchers determine the sequence of the inscriptions.

"In a way, it's a mini-archaeology site. If one groove cuts across another groove, you can tell which one was the most recent," Kelso said.

Smithsonian curators also used x-ray fluorescence to identify the chemical composition of the slate and create a geological profile. The results will be compared to slate samples from different locations in Europe to learn the origin of the slate.

Found in John Smith's Well

Archaeologists discovered the slate in the center of James Fort in a well most likely built in 1609 under the direction of Capt. John Smith, a founding leader of Jamestown, which was established in 1607.

When the water in the well went bad, colonists used the well as a trash pit. They discarded the tablet and thousands of other artifacts during the winter of 1609-10, called the Starving Time.

Near the slate, archaeologists found butchered bones from horses and dogs, which may date to the same period, when the fort was under siege and colonists resorted to eating their domestic animals. Only about 60 of 200 people survived the winter.

Archaeologists reached the bottom of the 14-foot-deep (4.2-meter-deep) barrel-lined well in December. They are currently analyzing, conserving and restoring the rest of the enormous and unprecedented collection of artifacts. The analysis is expected to lead to a better understanding of the colony's difficult early years.

Whose Slate Was It?

Kelso speculates that the slate belonged to William Strachey, the first secretary of the Jamestown colony.

Strachey had legal training, so he would have known how to write using secretary hand. He was also among the 140 castaways from the Sea Venture, an English ship that sailed for Jamestown in 1609 with supplies and more settlers to reinforce the colony.

The ship was wrecked in a storm and its passengers were stranded in Bermuda for ten months. After building two new ships, they arrived at Jamestown in the spring of 1610, in time to help those who had survived the winter.

Previously identified drawings on the slate may indicate that the owner traveled through Bermuda. These include a palmetto tree and possibly a cahowa rare seabird that nests only in Bermuda.

Drawings of rampant lions, used in the English coat of arms during the 1603-25 reign of King James I, were also identified earlier and suggest that the owner was involved with government and armorial drawingsevidence that Kelso believes also may point to Strachey.

In the months to come, the Jamestown slate will continue to undergo a variety of nondestructive analytical tests.

"We have only begun to bleed the secrets out of this extraordinary object," Kelso said.

 

 

 

 


#15165 From: David Raleigh Arnold <dra@...>
Date: Thu Jan 14, 2010 4:25 pm
Subject: Re: Which offers you a good chance to study chinese.
dave1mb
Offline Offline
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On Wed, 13 Jan 2010 17:00:35 -0800 (PST)
Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...> wrote:

> Hava Hart, Dave.
> Mike is trying to deal with some invasive wormware results.
> His poor 'puter is spitting out stuff to all his addybook lists. I've gotten
this one 5 times already.
> Don't be so quick to snap shut on something you're not sure yer catchin'! 
Mike's one of the best independent historians to come down the pike. (Deep into
the KRS adventure & all.) This is none of his doin'.

Michael:  I am most sincerely sorry.  Utmost regards, daveA
(linux user ;-))

#15164 From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
Date: Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:00 am
Subject: Re: Which offers you a good chance to study chinese.
yacrispyubetcha
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Hava Hart, Dave.
Mike is trying to deal with some invasive wormware results.
His poor 'puter is spitting out stuff to all his addybook lists. I've gotten this one 5 times already.
Don't be so quick to snap shut on something you're not sure yer catchin'! Mike's one of the best independent historians to come down the pike. (Deep into the KRS adventure & all.) This is none of his doin'.

-c

--- On Wed, 1/13/10, David Raleigh Arnold <dra@...> wrote:

From: David Raleigh Arnold <dra@...>
Subject: Re: [epigraphy] Which offers you a good chance to study chinese.
To: epigraphy@yahoogroups.com
Cc: "michael zalar" <m_zalar@...>
Date: Wednesday, January 13, 2010, 10:12 AM

On Wed, 13 Jan 2010 15:56:05 +0000
michael zalar <m_zalar@...> wrote:

>
>
> Dear Sir/Ms,
>
> Have a nice day!

You too, spammer!

What you are selling can be had for free:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/languages/chinese/


------------------------------------

Order the Hebraic Roots Version Scriptures
http://www.messianic.co.za

Other Great Nazarene Books are at:
http://www.lulu.com/nazarene
Yahoo! Groups Links

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#15163 From: David Raleigh Arnold <dra@...>
Date: Wed Jan 13, 2010 4:12 pm
Subject: Re: Which offers you a good chance to study chinese.
dave1mb
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On Wed, 13 Jan 2010 15:56:05 +0000
michael zalar <m_zalar@...> wrote:

>
>
> Dear Sir/Ms,
>
> Have a nice day!

You too, spammer!

What you are selling can be had for free:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/languages/chinese/

#15162 From: michael zalar <m_zalar@...>
Date: Wed Jan 13, 2010 3:56 pm
Subject: Which offers you a good chance to study chinese.
m_zalar@...
Send Email Send Email
 
Dear Sir/Ms,

Have a nice day!

Sinerely hope you everything goes smoothly!

Nowadays, the progressing economic situations in China are attracting more and more people learning Chinese, partly because of the business coporation or other work requirements, partly because of interests or eagerness, the combination of commercial trades and language usage are becoming more significant & closer day by day.

This is KwordChinese, which offers you a good chance to study chinese. No matter it is useful for your business or just satisfaction of your interest, I believe that if you can speak fluent Chinese, success will be your belongings in the near future.

This is our website www.Kwordchinese.com , welcome to go in & experience from the first step how to write your name in Chinese, our teacher will give you the most helpful advice in the classroom the whole day.

I am sincerely looking forward to your visitation!

Thanks & Regards

KwordChinese

Skype: chinese-i
Email: info@...




#15161 From: "dgoudsward" <dave@...>
Date: Tue Dec 15, 2009 4:37 pm
Subject: Bob Stone at Mystery Hill
dgoudsward
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Bob Stone, the owner of America's Stonehenge passed away this morning New
Hampsire, surrounding by family. Details are pending but it appears the wake
will be Thursday with a burial Friday,

I am grateful to have been able to call him my friend.

#15160 From: Roderick Schmidt <inyotep@...>
Date: Wed Dec 9, 2009 10:32 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Hoax's
inyotep
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I agree Paul, but I assign blame to applied prejudice. The academic crowd is notorius for it. The way Barry Fell was treated (to this day) demonstrates someting seriously wrong with their attitudes. They will continue to remain in darkness.
RLS 
--- On Tue, 12/8/09, Paul Troemner <troemner@...> wrote:

From: Paul Troemner <troemner@...>
Subject: [epigraphy] Re: Hoax's
To: epigraphy@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, December 8, 2009, 5:05 PM



What amazes me is that there are so many otherwise intelligent people out there that have rejected one absolute (that all are genuine) and have embraced the polar opposite (that all are fraudulent) without a thorough study of any of these items or "relics."  It appears they are only able to grasp the concept of "go or no go."  They are unable to fathom the potential of a mixture of both.  I would wish life were so simple and pure as "go or no go."
 
Case in point, the Michigan Relics may have begun as a few genuine articles which were used as inspiration to create new "relics."  Since similar artifacts surfaced earlier in Davenport and several eastern seaboard locations, there may indeed be some glimmer of genuine articles in the Michigan collection as long as they weren't among the items that had been lost since their "discovery."
 
Since the academic world still does not accept the fact that some North American Indians such as the Micmac, the Cherokee, and others had writing systems prior to the arrival of the Europeans, the likelihood of them accepting any ancient writing by North American Indians is remote.
 
I think it is just a matter of time before some one uses some of these known writing systems to make some headway on translating some of these "fraudulent" items.





#15159 From: Paul Troemner <troemner@...>
Date: Wed Dec 9, 2009 1:05 am
Subject: Re: Hoax's
troemner
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What amazes me is that there are so many otherwise intelligent people out there that have rejected one absolute (that all are genuine) and have embraced the polar opposite (that all are fraudulent) without a thorough study of any of these items or "relics."  It appears they are only able to grasp the concept of "go or no go."  They are unable to fathom the potential of a mixture of both.  I would wish life were so simple and pure as "go or no go."
 
Case in point, the Michigan Relics may have begun as a few genuine articles which were used as inspiration to create new "relics."  Since similar artifacts surfaced earlier in Davenport and several eastern seaboard locations, there may indeed be some glimmer of genuine articles in the Michigan collection as long as they weren't among the items that had been lost since their "discovery."
 
Since the academic world still does not accept the fact that some North American Indians such as the Micmac, the Cherokee, and others had writing systems prior to the arrival of the Europeans, the likelihood of them accepting any ancient writing by North American Indians is remote.
 
I think it is just a matter of time before some one uses some of these known writing systems to make some headway on translating some of these "fraudulent" items.


#15158 From: "awendawn" <awendawn@...>
Date: Mon Dec 7, 2009 5:29 pm
Subject: Re: Hoax's
awendawn
Offline Offline
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notice who's favorite rune discovery is not listed!!!!  Coop if your out
there get in touch with me.  namaste, awen> More Fakes and Hoaxes
> [More Fakes and Hoaxes]
> The Veleia Affair: Find or Fraud in Spain's Basque Country?
> <http://www.archaeology.org/0909/abstracts/insider.html>
>
> Legend of the Crystal Skulls
> <http://www.archaeology.org/0805/etc/indy.html>
>
> When Giants Roamed the Earth
> <http://www.archaeology.org/0511/etc/giants.html>
>
> Michigan's Mystery Relics
> <http://www.archaeology.org/0405/reviews/michigan.html>
>
> Gold Dust and James Bond
> <http://www.archaeology.org/online/features/ossuary/>
>
> Runestone Fakery
> <http://www.archaeology.org/0201/newsbriefs/runestone.html>
>
> Snake Goddesses, Fake Goddesses
> <http://www.archaeology.org/0101/abstracts/goddess.html>
>
> "God's Hands" Did the Devil's Work
> <http://www.archaeology.org/0101/newsbriefs/godshands.html>
>
> Saga of the Persian Princess
> <http://www.archaeology.org/0101/etc/persia.html>
>
> Fake Busters
>
> Kenneth Lapatin: Talking About Fakes
> <http://www.archaeology.org/online/interviews/lapatin.html>
>
> Jane MacLaren Walsh: Hunting Fakes
> <http://www.archaeology.org/0501/etc/conversations.html>
>
> Oscar Muscarella: Scourge of the Forgery Culture
> <http://www.archaeology.org/0101/etc/books.html>
>
> The (Fake) Art Market
> [The (Fake) Art Market; Strange Sites and Pseudoarchaeology]
> Forging Ahead Or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love eBay
> <http://www.archaeology.org/0905/etc/insider.html>
>
> Fakes Flood Market <http://www.archaeology.org/online/news/fakes.html>
>
> Faking African Art
> <http://www.archaeology.org/0101/abstracts/africa.html>
>
> Strange Sites and Pseudoarchaeology
>
> The Bosnia-Atlantis Connection
> <http://www.archaeology.org/online/features/osmanagic/>
>
> Seductions of Pseudoarchaeology Pseudoscience in Cyberspace
> <http://www.archaeology.org/0305/etc/web.html>
> Far Out Television <http://www.archaeology.org/0305/abstracts/tv.html>
> Bogus Books <http://www.archaeology.org/0305/abstracts/books.html>
>
>
> Theme Park of the Gods
> <http://www.archaeology.org/0401/abstracts/letter.html>
>
> Camelot in Kentucky: Fantasies About Early America
> <http://www.archaeology.org/0101/abstracts/insight.html>
>
> Bogus Sources
> Coming soon... General references about fakes, sources for Eight
Classic
> Cases, and background on other specific frauds and hoaxes
> [-----]
>  2009 by the Archaeological Institute of America
> www.archaeology.org/online/features/hoaxes/
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#15157 From: "awendawn" <awendawn@...>
Date: Mon Dec 7, 2009 6:50 am
Subject: Hoax's
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ARCHAEOLOGY Subscribe! Special Introductory Offer
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A publication of the Archaeological Institute of America
 
Email this article

Bogus! An Introduction to Dubious Discoveries by Brittany Jackson and Mark Rose
Why do fakes get made? Why do people fall for hoaxes? Greed, pride, revenge, nationalism, pranks, and gullibility mix in an archaeological setting

Eight Classic Cases by Brittany Jackson and Mark Rose

Eight Classic Cases

Fawcett's Deadly Idol
A fake figurine and a charlatan's vision inspire a doomed search for Atlantis in the jungles of Brazil

The Beringer Hoax
Extraordinary fossils and inscriptions: Works of Nature or God? Or made by jealous colleagues?

Tarragona Two-Step
The "Hercules Sarcophagus" is quickly debunked, but 60 years later a fragment resurfaces as genuine in a prominent academic journal

Walam Olum Hokum
Eccentric nineteenth-century scholar Constantine Rafinesque composes a Native American epic

Saitaphernes' Golden Tiara
After the Louvre's magnificent Greco-Scythian crown is exposed as a fake, Israel Rouchomovski takes a bow

Tracking the Etruscan Warriors
Evidence shows that being a great art historian may not qualify you for detective work

The Notorious Calaveras Skull
A practical joke in gold rush California sparks a decades-long scholarly debate and still has believers today

Who Made the Praeneste Fibula?
History is rewritten when archaeologist Wolfgang Helbig teams up with a forger

More Fakes and Hoaxes

More Fakes and Hoaxes

The Veleia Affair: Find or Fraud in Spain's Basque Country?

Legend of the Crystal Skulls

When Giants Roamed the Earth

Michigan's Mystery Relics

Gold Dust and James Bond

Runestone Fakery

Snake Goddesses, Fake Goddesses

"God's Hands" Did the Devil's Work

Saga of the Persian Princess

Fake Busters

Kenneth Lapatin: Talking About Fakes

Jane MacLaren Walsh: Hunting Fakes

Oscar Muscarella: Scourge of the Forgery Culture

The (Fake) Art Market

The (Fake) Art Market; Strange Sites and Pseudoarchaeology

Forging Ahead Or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love eBay

Fakes Flood Market

Faking African Art

Strange Sites and Pseudoarchaeology

The Bosnia-Atlantis Connection

Seductions of Pseudoarchaeology

Pseudoscience in Cyberspace
Far Out Television
Bogus Books

Theme Park of the Gods

Camelot in Kentucky: Fantasies About Early America

Bogus Sources
Coming soon... General references about fakes, sources for Eight Classic Cases, and background on other specific frauds and hoaxes


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#15156 From: "Crispy" <yacrispyubetcha@...>
Date: Fri Dec 4, 2009 6:38 am
Subject: New article and findings! Juduculla Rock
yacrispyubetcha
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A great epigraphy contact of mine in Utah, Ray Urbaniak, is independant scholar
and author re> Anasazi of the South West.
Home Page
>   http://www.naturalfrequency.net/   <
the brain himself
>   http://www.naturalfrequency.net/Ray/   <

He took a trip back east with relatives and stopped in at a well known epigraphy
site to view the Juduculla Rock. With his trained eye for seeing alignments as
naturally as breathing, he made a "well fer shur" simple observation, but linked
it up in a way nobody else had thot of.
See for yourself!
>   http://www.manataka.org/page1075.html   <

Enjoy!
-chris

#15155 From: "awendawn" <awendawn@...>
Date: Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:44 am
Subject: UWI team finds proof of ancient people
awendawn
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This is really interesting. He has the people
migrating to Trinidad from South America 7000 years ago. Awen  :-/
 
 
UWI team finds proof of ancient people


http://www.trinidadexpress.com/images/pix.gif
http://www.trinidadexpress.com/images/pix.gif
signs of life: Students, above and at right, of the University of the West Indies search for evidence at St John's Road, South Oropouche, where people are believed to have lived 7,000 years ago. -Photos: RICHARD CHARAN

AN archaeological team has found more evidence on a site at St John's Road, South Oropouche, that people lived there 7,000 years ago.

The site is as old as that of the famed Banwari Man, whose remains were found in San Francique, Penal, 40 years ago.

The two sites are about five kilometres apart.

It means that the site, among the oldest in the Caribbean, may see a rewriting of secondary school history.

Proof of the antiquity of the St John's Road site has come, in part, from the research done by Dr Basil Reid, senior lecturer with the Department of History at the University of the West Indies.

Reid said radiocarbon testing done in 1994 suggested that the St John's Road site was dated to approximately 5,000 BC.

Additional samples of shells collected at the site were recently sent to Beta Analytic Inc in Miami, Florida, USA, by the history department's Archaeology Centre.

The results, received on Monday, confirmed the finding that the site is ancient. The people who lived there are known as the Ortoiroids, who likely migrated from South America and settled at St John's, which is located near the Oropouche River, Godineau swamp and Gulf of Paria.

Reid and his students did field work at the site two weeks ago and made new discoveries.

He said a large stone pestle was found 60 centimetres inside one of the pits on a hilltop location.

The pestle, he said, was probably used to pulverise edible roots, palm starch and seeds and may also have been used to pulverise red ochre, a mineral oxide which is naturally occurring at St John's, to be used as body paint during rituals.

Also found were crab claws, oysters, nerite shells and bird and mammal bones which give insight into the diet of the people.

The team of UWI students also unearthed a sandstone adze (a tool used for smoothing rough wood), quartz and flint stone flakes and red ochre. Some of the stone flakes may have been used by the Ortoiroid natives as scrapers for food preparation, such as scaling fish, prying meat from shells and removing the hides of animals they ate-tree rats, red howler monkeys, pacas (large rodent), agoutis, red brockets (deer) and collared peccaries (pig-like animal).

Reid said the first two groups of migrants to the Caribbean were the Ortoiroids and Casimiroids.

The Ortoiroids probably migrated from the Guianas in South America while the Casimiroids may have come from Belize in Central America.

Named after the Ortoire river in eastern Trinidad, the Ortoiroids came to the Caribbean around 5,000 BC and settled in the Lesser Antilles as far north as Puerto Rico until 200 BC.

The St John's site was discovered in 1924 and excavated in 1953.

Reid came to national attention back in 2003 when he and history department students excavated a hilltop site at Ghandi Village, Debe, and found evidence of a settlement dating back to 500-600 BC.

He returned three years later with more sophisticated equipment and caused a stir again, this time unearthing pottery, shells and stone tools.

Reid has recorded much of his findings in the book Myths and Realities of Caribbean History.

http://www.trinidadexpress.com/images/pix.gif

#15154 From: "awendawn" <awendawn@...>
Date: Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:58 pm
Subject: The First Men And Women From The Canary Islands Were Berbers!!!!!
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The First Men And Women From The Canary Islands Were Berbers

ScienceDaily (Oct. 21, 2009) A team of Spanish and Portuguese researchers has carried out molecular genetic analysis of the Y chromosome (transmitted only by males) of the aboriginal population of the Canary Islands to determine their origin and the extent to which they have survived in the current population. The results suggest a North African origin for these paternal lineages which, unlike maternal lineages, have declined to the point of being practically replaced today by European lineages.

Researchers from the University of La Laguna (ULL), the Institute of Pathology and Molecular Immunology from the University of Porto (Portugal) and the Institute of Legal Medicine from the University of Santiago de Compostela (USC) have studied the Y chromosome from human dental remains from the Canary Islands, and have determined the origin and evolution of paternal lineages from the pre-Hispanic era to the present day. To date, only mitochondrial DNA has been studied, which merely reflects the evolution of maternal lineages.

Rosa Fregal, the principal author of the recently-published study in BMC Evolutionary Biology, and a researcher from the Genetics Department of the ULL, explains to SINC that "whereas aboriginal maternal lineages have survived with a slight downward trend, aboriginal paternal lineages have declined progressively, being replaced by European lineages".

Experts have also analysed an historic sample for La Concepcin church (Tenerife), which dates back to the 17th and 18th centuries. With these data, they have established the impact of European colonisation and the African slave trade, and have determined the evolution of paternal lineages in aborigines from the Canary Islands or Guanches, from the pre-Hispanic era to the present day.

Although contribution is now mainly European, scientists state that North African and Sub-Saharan contribution was higher in the 17th and 18th centuries. The explanation as to why there is a difference between the lineages of men and women from the Canary Islands stems from the diverse contributions of parental populations, and, above all, as a result of European colonisation.

During this period, most relationships between men and women were between Iberian men and Guanches women, "due to the better social position of the former [Iberian men] compared to aboriginal males" Fregel explains. In addition to this, there was a higher mortality rate among male aborigines, who were displaced and discriminated against by conquerors. "Not only during the Crown of Castile Conquest in the 15th century, but also thereafter," the scientist affirms.

The researcher adds that in the case of Sub-Saharan lineages, both sexes were discriminated against equally, "and both maternal and paternal lineages have declined to date".

Traces of European colonisation

A previous study of the Y chromosome in the current population of the Canary Islands demonstrated the impact of European colonisation on the male population in the Canary Islands, Fregal points out that "When estimating the proportion of European lineages present in the current population of the Canary Islands, it was found that they represented more than 90%." Nevertheless, mitochondrial DNA studies in the current population demonstrated a notable survival of aboriginal lineages, where European contribution is between 36% and 62%.

Iberian and European contribution to male genetic patrimony in the Canary Islands increased from 63% during the 17th and 18th centuries to 83% in the present day. At the same time, male aboriginal genes decreased from 31% to 17%, and Sub-Saharan genes, from 6% to 1%.

As for women, European contribution is more constant, having moved from 48% to 55%, and aboriginal contribution, from 40% to 42%. The only decline observed in genetic contribution, from 12% to 3% in the last three centuries, has been in the case of Sub-Saharans.

Despite these advances, there are still mysteries to solve, such as how to determine whether the first inhabitants of the Canary Islands arrived by their own means or whether they were brought by force, "as there are no signs to ascertain whether they were aware of the navigation or if they came in one or several waves," Fregal concludes.


Journal reference:

  1. Fregel et al. Demographic history of Canary Islands male gene-pool: replacement of native lineages by European. BMC Evolutionary Biology, 2009; 9 (1): 181 DOI

#15153 From: Roderick Schmidt <inyotep@...>
Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 8:44 pm
Subject: Re: Neolithic equinox site
inyotep
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Good one, Ed.
This places a date to the equinox as replacement of the summer solstice as date and year key.
I think they did this to correct precessional changes. The equinox, as mid-point doesn't change.
The solstices do.
RLS


From: ed4linda <ed4linda@...>
To: epigraphy@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, October 14, 2009 2:52:41 PM
Subject: [epigraphy] Neolithic equinox site

http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/jersey/hi/people_and_places/history/newsid_8196000/8196305.stm



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#15152 From: "ed4linda" <ed4linda@...>
Date: Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:52 pm
Subject: Neolithic equinox site
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#15151 From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
Date: Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:16 pm
Subject: Re: Inscription help
yacrispyubetcha
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You noticed that too...
Then again, when it was freshly uncovered, so did the KRS look pretty good.
Not that that adds anything to solving the translation. The person did not say it was old. Just asked for a translation.
 
What i think i do recall, that squared design on the reverse side reminds me of the Spring Corn Dance... Fire renewal ceremony held by both the Cherokee and the Hebrew. All fires in the village/town are extinguished, along with a thorough "spring cleaning" of all old matting, bedding, things that would have been getting lice or ticks etc. ... and everyone congregates at the Sacred Fire in the middle of town. Lots of liturgy, singing, prescribed dancing, and a ceremonial lighting of the Sacred Fire, usually by means of Solar (magnifying glass) or if the Minister/Priest/Shaman is good at what he does with his trained abilities, it gets sparked using psychokinetics. (Mastery of physical Chi and the EM energies that are at our disposal, if we are among the Mozarts of the world to tap into them.)
 
That is what i've been told by a Native informant from Oklahoma i spoke to. She may have been fulla legend and myth, i was not ever sure how 'traditional' she was or just passing on what she half heard her gramma talking about when she was little. But for some reason, the info stuck in my own head all this time, and i associate it with that square shape design... Thing is, now that 'I've" learned what is possible from a trained Initiate of traditional background (not me, heavens sake, but those who are) the fire-starting using controlled EM direction is fully believable.
 
BTW, oddly enuf, the same symbol for this ceremony is the same in shape to the small icon you see on a computer keyboard, i think for "enter"... the square with looped corners. One wonders at the Universal Humor that even on the keyboard, it means "turn the energy on", "connect here to start it all going".
 
Returning to the story i heard, once the fire is lit, everyone dips their brands or firepot tinder in the fresh flame, and the full village population winds its way in a dancing march around the whole perimeter of the village, carrying their new fire. They dance in a path of  the enclosing pattern of that loopy-cornered square, acknolwledging the four directions.  They go around the village four times that way and then disperse to their homes to relight the homefires.  All these years i've wondered if my informant was correct, half right or only remembering parts of a bigger picture. Seeing this stone, the Hebrew on one side, the square pattern on the other has brought back the old memory. Hopefully someone more knowlegeable in Cherokee and Hebrew traditions can tell me if i need to delete something here or smile in keeping it.
 
-chris
--- On Wed, 9/16/09, Dr. Edward D. Rockstein <ed4linda@...> wrote:

From: Dr. Edward D. Rockstein <ed4linda@...>
Subject: Re: [epigraphy] Inscription help
To: epigraphy@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, September 16, 2009, 9:25 PM



The inscription does not appear weathered.

Dr. Edward D. Rockstein

ed4linda@... 

”The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance.” — Cicero, 55 BC


--- On Wed, 9/16/09, dixiedwayne <dixiedwayne@...> wrote:

From: dixiedwayne <dixiedwayne@...>
Subject: [epigraphy] Inscription help
To: epigraphy@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, September 16, 2009, 7:17 PM

 
I would like to see if anyone can decipher the inscription on the stone called The Rock that I posted in photo's. Any help would be appreciated.
Also, does anyone know of a similar rock or inscription that we could see?






#15150 From: "Dr. Edward D. Rockstein" <ed4linda@...>
Date: Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:25 am
Subject: Re: Inscription help
ed4linda
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The inscription does not appear weathered.

Dr. Edward D. Rockstein

ed4linda@... 

”The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance.” — Cicero, 55 BC


--- On Wed, 9/16/09, dixiedwayne <dixiedwayne@...> wrote:

From: dixiedwayne <dixiedwayne@...>
Subject: [epigraphy] Inscription help
To: epigraphy@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, September 16, 2009, 7:17 PM

 

I would like to see if anyone can decipher the inscription on the stone called The Rock that I posted in photo's. Any help would be appreciated.
Also, does anyone know of a similar rock or inscription that we could see?



#15149 From: "dixiedwayne" <dixiedwayne@...>
Date: Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:17 pm
Subject: Inscription help
dixiedwayne
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I would like to see if anyone can decipher the inscription on the stone called
The Rock that I posted in photo's. Any help would be appreciated.
Also, does anyone know of a similar rock or inscription that we could see?

#15148 From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
Date: Mon Sep 7, 2009 8:33 pm
Subject: Re: Way International Seeks to Ban Bible by Suing Jewish Group
yacrispyubetcha
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But, wouldn't "The Way" folk need to establish authorship of the Bible? I thot that was the Big Guy's credit reference.
-c

--- On Sat, 9/5/09, cleartruth <cleartruth@...> wrote:

From: cleartruth <cleartruth@...>
Subject: [epigraphy] Way International Seeks to Ban Bible by Suing Jewish Group
To: epigraphy@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, September 5, 2009, 1:22 AM

From the moderator, Please pass this story along:

The Way International Seeks to Ban Bible by Suing Jewish Group
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/23574/hebraic-roots-version



------------------------------------

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#15147 From: "cleartruth" <cleartruth@...>
Date: Sat Sep 5, 2009 6:22 am
Subject: Way International Seeks to Ban Bible by Suing Jewish Group
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From the moderator, Please pass this story along:

The Way International Seeks to Ban Bible by Suing Jewish Group
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/23574/hebraic-roots-version

#15146 From: "ed4linda" <ed4linda@...>
Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:55 pm
Subject: Excavations at the Ness of Brodgar, Mainland, Orkney
ed4linda
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We visited the site at Brodgar in 1999 a few years prior to the commencement of
excavations. Mainland Orkney is a very nice visit, especially Maeshowe where you
can see a number of Runic graphiti left by Danish tomb raiders.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article6795316.ece

Doc Rock

#15145 From: David Raleigh Arnold <dra@...>
Date: Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:03 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Chaco pottery
dave1mb
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On Wednesday 12 August 2009, David Raleigh Arnold wrote:
> On Wednesday 12 August 2009, donalbb@... wrote:
> > Bear in mind, too, that many American Indian tribes had their origin
> in Siberia --just like the Japanese (and Chinese for that matter).
Thus
> it would not be surprising to find occasional matches in culture or
> even language. Note: At least one Amerind greeting is sounded "How."
>
> Cheyenne = the keepers of the Shayan gate, the westmost gate of
> Troy.  "How" comes from the Germanic "Halle", from whence come holy,
> health, hail, heil, and probably hello. There was some loss of
> "L", so you have hickory instead of liquori, hosequen (maize) instead
> of lo sequin, Okee instead of Loki, from the 11nd Augusta, the IXth,
> but mainly the XXth legion, which all mysteriously vanished in
Britain,
> the XXth after 367 but before

oops

> 393 AD.

--
Very easy guitar music, solos, duets, exercises.  Intermediate guitar
solos, theory, banjo, harmonica.  Free download of technical exercises
worth a lifetime of practice.  Compare Segovia's scale set with DGT:
http://www.openguitar.com/scalescomparison.html

#15144 From: David Raleigh Arnold <dra@...>
Date: Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:55 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Chaco pottery
dave1mb
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On Wednesday 12 August 2009, donalbb@... wrote:
> Bear in mind, too, that many American Indian tribes had their origin
in Siberia --just like the Japanese (and Chinese for that matter). Thus
it would not be surprising to find occasional matches in culture or
even language. Note: At least one Amerind greeting is sounded "How."

Cheyenne = the keepers of the Shayan gate, the westmost gate of
Troy.  "How" comes from the Germanic "Halle", from whence come holy,
health, hail, heil, and probably hello. There was some loss of
"L", so you have hickory instead of liquori, hosequen (maize) instead
of lo sequin, Okee instead of Loki, from the 11nd Augusta, the IXth,
but mainly the XXth legion, which all mysteriously vanished in Britain,
the XXth after 367 but before 293 AD.

Two specific cheyenne words: "ate", pater (father), and "sois" (belly) ,
suet (belly fat).  Let me also point out that the XXth was full of
men with German names, which are on Hadrian's wall, that the XXth
had the "Classis Britannia" the fleet, and that three shrines to
Loki have been found near the "City of the Legions", Deva, south
of present day Liverpool, and that "how" is associated with the
Roman salute, not the Chinese.  Regards, daveA

--
Very easy guitar music, solos, duets, exercises.  Intermediate guitar
solos, theory, banjo, harmonica.  Free download of technical exercises
worth a lifetime of practice.  Compare Segovia's scale set with DGT:
http://www.openguitar.com/scalescomparison.html

#15143 From: donalbb@...
Date: Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:36 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Chaco pottery
donalbbuchanan
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Bear in mind, too, that many American Indian tribes had their origin in Siberia --just like the Japanese (and Chinese for that matter). Thus it would not be surprising to find occasional matches in culture or even language. Note: At least one Amerind greeting is sounded "How." The Chinese greeting: "Hao" (short for "Hao bu Hao" (literally "good not good?" --their version of "How are you" or "Hi!". Then there is our State name: "Ohio" which is a beautiful sound match for the Japanese "Ohayo" (Good Morning).

don

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Patenaude" <yacrispyubetcha@...>
To: epigraphy@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 6:25:53 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: [epigraphy] Re: Chaco pottery

 

Christopher,
... and B. Fell had the Zuni pegged "positively" as Libyan or at least n.African decendants according to their vocabulary, mythos, syntax and lingually-internal references/reflections to the world around them.
 
Either way, it would appear that the Zuni are anomalous enough in culture from the basic North American "Native" that they are capable of atracting attention from objective researchers trying to find where they DID come from. Interesting. In a basket full of objects, like a Sesame Street excercise... "Which one doesn't belong?" Their attributes would seem to be odd enough to scratch more than a few heads.
-chris p.

--- On Mon, 7/27/09, Christopher Nyerges <christopher_nyerges@...> wrote:

From: Christopher Nyerges <christopher_nyerges@...>
Subject: Re: [epigraphy] Re: Chaco pottery
To: epigraphy@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, July 27, 2009, 11:26 AM



This is an old discussion, but I just finished reading The Zuni Enigma.  Have you all read it? it is an amazing book, with the author being way too conservative academically, giving so many connections between Japanese and Zuni that it makes your mind boggle -- and yet she is very tentative. Anyway, there was a suggested connection with Japanese 13th century wanderers before they settled in present day Zuni.... could this "boat" on pottery be a pic of a Japanese boat?
 
christopher

--- On Sun, 3/12/06, Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...> wrote:

From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
Subject: [epigraphy] Re: Chaco pottery
To: epigraphy@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, March 12, 2006, 4:29 PM

Hi there!

Find uploaded to the Epig website FILES section
some composite panels and illustrations i put
together to explain some of the possible pattern
bits this Chaco Canyon shard could actually be
a part of. Captions and comments in the panels
make some identification or clarification of
resources for some of the "example" items.
Here are the links:
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/epigraphy/files/   <
Scroll down to "Chaco Canyon Shard" file or go direct
>   
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/epigraphy/files/Chaco%20Canyo
n%20Shard/   <

The Chaco fragment is indeed too small to
say that it is a "ship", a bird tail or a serpent's
mouth... or anything else. More of the original
pot and pattern would have to be pieced together
to make any responsible hypothesis or speculation.

Keeping in mind the constant possibility of
cultural diffusion, and the fact that Chaco in its
hey day drew religious pilgrims as far away as
Central America or better, i can allow my eye to
compare the "Native American" slip patterns found
all across the US desert SW with those of
Etruscan and Mediterranian traditions. It is
difficult for me to ignore the strong resemblances!


The comparative pottery samples this quest produced
from my surfing has only added more questions for me
than solved any! The shard in question may have no
answers. But the whole pots that do exsist certainly
merit fresh evaluation as to cultural origins.     imho

For more materials on the notes and reports of
Renaud's career, see:

Etienne B. Renaud Collection
Special Collections / Archives

>   http://www.penlib.du.edu/specoll/renaud/index.cfm   <

For more info on Avanu, Horned Water Serpent
>   
http://altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/symbols/bldefsavany
u.htm   <
and an interesting link from there;
Serpent and Egg
>   http://altreligion.about.com/library/weekly/aa071603a.htm   <

-chris

------------------ Original Message ------------------------
--- In epigraphy@yahoogroups.com, "bartbeast"
<barthome1@...> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I have uploaded the photo of the pottery shard Chris N. wanted. 
It is
> in the photo section of the list in the miscellaneous folder. 
Here is
> the link.  You all will have to log in to see it.
>
>
http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/epigraphy/photos/view/60d8?b
=14
>
> As the design goes off the edge, I am not sure you can say
much about
> it.  It could be a portion of a much larger design.
>
> Bart
>







Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/epigraphy/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    epigraphy-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/







#15142 From: Christopher Nyerges <christopher_nyerges@...>
Date: Wed Aug 12, 2009 4:56 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Chaco pottery
christopher_...
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I would strongly suggest reading Zuni Enigma, and draw your own conclusions.  I have always used Fell's books when trying to figure something out, but he does not always show his line of reasoning, and sometimes (from my perspective) he does educated guesses that are possiblewhen you ahve worked with something for so long.  However, I lean towards dictionaries of foreign languages and more scholarly approaches when in doubt. 
 
christopher

--- On Tue, 8/11/09, Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...> wrote:

From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
Subject: Re: [epigraphy] Re: Chaco pottery
To: epigraphy@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, August 11, 2009, 3:25 PM



Christopher,
... and B. Fell had the Zuni pegged "positively" as Libyan or at least n.African decendants according to their vocabulary, mythos, syntax and lingually-internal references/reflections to the world around them.
 
Either way, it would appear that the Zuni are anomalous enough in culture from the basic North American "Native" that they are capable of atracting attention from objective researchers trying to find where they DID come from. Interesting. In a basket full of objects, like a Sesame Street excercise... "Which one doesn't belong?" Their attributes would seem to be odd enough to scratch more than a few heads.
-chris p.

--- On Mon, 7/27/09, Christopher Nyerges <christopher_nyerges@...> wrote:

From: Christopher Nyerges <christopher_nyerges@...>
Subject: Re: [epigraphy] Re: Chaco pottery
To: epigraphy@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, July 27, 2009, 11:26 AM



This is an old discussion, but I just finished reading The Zuni Enigma.  Have you all read it? it is an amazing book, with the author being way too conservative academically, giving so many connections between Japanese and Zuni that it makes your mind boggle -- and yet she is very tentative. Anyway, there was a suggested connection with Japanese 13th century wanderers before they settled in present day Zuni.... could this "boat" on pottery be a pic of a Japanese boat?
 
christopher

--- On Sun, 3/12/06, Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...> wrote:

From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
Subject: [epigraphy] Re: Chaco pottery
To: epigraphy@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, March 12, 2006, 4:29 PM

Hi there!

Find uploaded to the Epig website FILES section
some composite panels and illustrations i put
together to explain some of the possible pattern
bits this Chaco Canyon shard could actually be
a part of. Captions and comments in the panels
make some identification or clarification of
resources for some of the "example" items.
Here are the links:
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/epigraphy/files/   <
Scroll down to "Chaco Canyon Shard" file or go direct
>   
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/epigraphy/files/Chaco%20Canyo
n%20Shard/   <

The Chaco fragment is indeed too small to
say that it is a "ship", a bird tail or a serpent's
mouth... or anything else. More of the original
pot and pattern would have to be pieced together
to make any responsible hypothesis or speculation.

Keeping in mind the constant possibility of
cultural diffusion, and the fact that Chaco in its
hey day drew religious pilgrims as far away as
Central America or better, i can allow my eye to
compare the "Native American" slip patterns found
all across the US desert SW with those of
Etruscan and Mediterranian traditions. It is
difficult for me to ignore the strong resemblances!


The comparative pottery samples this quest produced
from my surfing has only added more questions for me
than solved any! The shard in question may have no
answers. But the whole pots that do exsist certainly
merit fresh evaluation as to cultural origins.     imho

For more materials on the notes and reports of
Renaud's career, see:

Etienne B. Renaud Collection
Special Collections / Archives

>   http://www.penlib.du.edu/specoll/renaud/index.cfm   <

For more info on Avanu, Horned Water Serpent
>   
http://altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/symbols/bldefsavany
u.htm   <
and an interesting link from there;
Serpent and Egg
>   http://altreligion.about.com/library/weekly/aa071603a.htm   <

-chris

------------------ Original Message ------------------------
--- In epigraphy@yahoogroups.com, "bartbeast"
<barthome1@...> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I have uploaded the photo of the pottery shard Chris N. wanted. 
It is
> in the photo section of the list in the miscellaneous folder. 
Here is
> the link.  You all will have to log in to see it.
>
>
http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/epigraphy/photos/view/60d8?b
=14
>
> As the design goes off the edge, I am not sure you can say
much about
> it.  It could be a portion of a much larger design.
>
> Bart
>







Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/epigraphy/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    epigraphy-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/









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