ev : Message: EV digest 4491

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james. thanks for the reply. sorry to take so long to answer, had to
dig up some data to answer your questions.

> Hi Elaine (and al)
>
> At 08:17 PM 13/06/05 -0700, Elaine wrote:
> >how should I upgrade my electric pickup?
> >
> >mitsubishi/dodge ram 50, 1988
> >13 x 12 flooded lead acid batteries
>
> What kind of flooded batteries? you should be able to get a set that
> has
> double the amp-hour capacity that are less than double the physical
> size.
> you could also go with 26 x 6V (156V) or 19 x 8V (152V) or 20 x 8V
> (160V)
> batteries, although the 8V ones would mean tweaking the charger. Not
> sure
> if the DCP controller could handle the extra volts of 20 x 8V at the
> end of
> charge (if used immediately after charging).
>

the flooded batteries were from jim ramos in hayward (american
battery). I don't know the brand now, but I think they are 12v x 130
amp-hr rated. I bought them from a guy in vallejo that decided after 3
cycles to go with 6 volt flooded himself, to increase range.

the controller is DCP raptor 600. typical amps are 100-200, peaks at
400-500 amps.

motor is shabmuller, I think 10 inch diameter. don't know the length.
it reads 36 volts, 150 amps, 4.5 kW (?). no external blower, but easy
enough to add one.

weight wise, the truck is lighter than stock right now and I'm sure the
suspension could handle the batteries.

you have a good point about going 26 x 6 volts. that would avoid
changing some things, or I could run two parallel strings of 12 volts,
too.

would there be a range difference between 26 x 6 vs. 2 x 13 x 12? the
rating on the T125's is 240 amp hours.

my range is worse than I thought. using my most conservative driving,
I went 10 miles. with more usual accelerations, only 6.5 miles. maybe
my batteries are "tired"?

thanks for any more ideas.

elaine

> >DCP controller
> >DC/DC Iota power supply
> >zivan 220v charger, ng3?
> >schabmueller (sp?) motor
> >
> >range only 15 miles right now. need 25 minimum.
>
> Issue of adding batteries for more range is adding weight - so the
> controller works harder and the motor generates more heat. What model
> controller and what are your typical amps when driving? It would be
> unfortunate to spend a lot of money on upgraded batteries only to
> burn out
> the motor in a week. How big is the motor (diameter and length)? This
> would
> give some indication of the capability of the motor. Does the motor
> have an
> external blower? if not you could add one to help cool it.
>
> >options:
> >
> >1. add 13 more 12 volt batteries, have two packs in parallel that I
> can
> >switch between?
>
> No need to switch, permanently connect in paralell (but with a fuse
> in case
> of any problems).
>
> > how does one do buddy pairs? how do you charge them?
>
> Buddy pairs are as the name implies, each battery of the string gets
> another connected in paralell to it. Charging is as normal.
>
> > 2. switch to 6 volt flooded, maybe 24 x 6? 144v. then have to adjust
> > charger and probably get a different dc/dc converter
>
> Can you go 26 x 6V and stay all else the same?
>
> >willing to sacrifice part of the truck bed, but still has to tilt up
> to
> >water the 9 batteries under there right now. could probably fit
> another 8
> >under the bed.
> >
> >thanks for any help
> >
> >elaine
> >
> >76 citicar C.C.
> >and this converted pickup
>
> Regards
>
> James

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Message-ID: <BAY101-F19A855930A142230A4AB25ADDA0@...>
From: "Roy LeMeur" <roylemeur@...>
To: ev@...
Subject: Re: Current limit!!!! Re: Advancing ETEK motors
Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 18:48:19 -0700
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Lightning Ryan wrote:
>Forced air is probably a "must have" feature as the Etek has very little
>thermal mass, so all the heat stays in the sensetive parts of the motor

A good forced air cooling system that is activated _well_ before peak
temperatures occur by an appropriately placed sensor would also motivate you
to back off and ease up on it well before entering the thermal danger zone.

.

Roy LeMeur
cloudevtech@...
http://www.cloudelectric.com
http://www.dcelectricsupply.com

Cloud Electric Vehicles
19428 66th Ave So, Q-101
Kent, Washington 98032

phone: 425-251-6380
fax: 425-251-6381
Toll Free: 800-648-7716

My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html

Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html

EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm

--Apple-Mail-14-832391220

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Subject: RE: Current limit!!!! Re: Advancing ETEK motors
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 18:49:25 -0700
Message-ID: <BD6E1127F7D1414A9D4C766E330950503FC262@...>
From: "Roger Stockton" <rstockton@...>
To: <ev@...>
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Ken Trough [mailto:ken@...] wrote:

> I appreciate the points, but most of us know that the
> published specs on many motors can be safely exceeded,
> sometimes by a great margin. I'm interested in the
> actual limits, not the published specs.

Well, good luck ;^>

I rather suspect that you won't find anyone other than the manufacturer
who is willing to do the destructive testing necessary to establish the
real limits for a variety of currents and durations. The racers may be
able to state that they can draw X amps for Y seconds and the motor
hasn't melted after Z runs, and may be able to say the motor fried when
we tried turning up the current to 2X, but be unable to tell you how
long they held what current in either case (so you don't know if X amps
would melt the motor if sustained for 1.5 Y seconds or not, and you
don't know how long 2X amps can be sustained before the motor fries).
>
> Will an ETEK really melt down if you exceed 330A for
> one minute? I've read about meltdowns, but they seem
> rare and usually under long and steep climbing conditions.

I think you've answered your own question. Jerry says his Etek fried
with only about 300A or so on it, and Etek says 300(330A) for
30sec(1min), so it is a pretty safe bet that if you sustain 300A or so
for more than a few minutes you will almost certainly fry the motor.

> I assume that forced air cooling raises these thresholds considerably?

Yep. It may not actually raise the ultimate current significantly, but
it will increase the length of time that a given current can be
sustained without damage since it allows more of the heat to be removed
from the motor.

Cheers,

Roger.

--Apple-Mail-14-832391220

From: "Shawn Waggoner" <evshawn@...>
To: <ev@...>
Subject: RE: Current limit!!!! Re: Advancing ETEK motors
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 22:13:14 -0400
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Message-Id: <20050709021322.UHEX8050.ibm62aec.bellsouth.net@polaris>

Not just forced air, but good air flow around the motor is also very
important. Keeping the motor more exposed to allow the ambient heat to
dissipate quickly helps. I do agree with Roy, if the current draw was higher
for longer periods, then an early initiated, forced air system would really
help.

On one of the 48V ETEK bikes (http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/629.html) we
have, which has a 450A controller, we can run it hard for a little over
three miles, where the peak is 450A and stays there for 20 seconds or more
then runs at top speed drawing a continuous 250-275A, and afterwards the
motor is barely warm (warm compared to the already hot FL air...).

For drag racing, we feel more than comfortable changing the controller out
to a 600A or larger one.

--
Shawn M. Waggoner
Florida Electric Auto Assoc.
http://www.floridaeaa.org
Custom Honda Electric Motorcycle 72V

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...] On
Behalf Of Roy LeMeur
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 9:48 PM
To: ev@...
Subject: Re: Current limit!!!! Re: Advancing ETEK motors

Lightning Ryan wrote:
>Forced air is probably a "must have" feature as the Etek has very little
>thermal mass, so all the heat stays in the sensetive parts of the motor

A good forced air cooling system that is activated _well_ before peak
temperatures occur by an appropriately placed sensor would also motivate you

to back off and ease up on it well before entering the thermal danger zone.

.

Roy LeMeur
cloudevtech@...
http://www.cloudelectric.com
http://www.dcelectricsupply.com

Cloud Electric Vehicles
19428 66th Ave So, Q-101
Kent, Washington 98032

phone: 425-251-6380
fax: 425-251-6381
Toll Free: 800-648-7716

My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html

Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html

EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm

--Apple-Mail-14-832391220

Message-ID: <0bf501c5842d$66820940$6001a8c0@Steve>
From: "STEVE CLUNN" <steveclunn@...>
To: <ev@...>
Subject: Re: how to upgrade converted pickup truck?
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 21:24:57 -0500
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----- Original Message -----
From: "elaine chiu" <>
> motor is shabmuller, I think 10 inch diameter. don't know the length.
> it reads 36 volts, 150 amps, 4.5 kW (?). no external blower, but easy
> enough to add one.
>
This sounds like one that was being sold at Supplus center awhile back , I
got one and did a car then later replaced it with a 9" net gain. . as I
remember it was rated at 6 hp .

> weight wise, the truck is lighter than stock right now and I'm sure the
> suspension could handle the batteries.

I started with 12 golf cart bats , I went to 20 but the motor was to small
for the extra weight . the car is in the album with the motor , never up
graded the pictures to the new 9 . it's the hyndia under russ weaver. he's
still driving it :-) ./

>
>
> you have a good point about going 26 x 6 volts.

if its the same motor that I had then it won't come close to pulling the
weight of 26 batts .
sorry
steve clunn

--Apple-Mail-14-832391220

Message-ID: <3535.24.58.227.153.1120876076.squirrel@...>
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 22:27:56 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: small part needed
From: "Tim Humphrey" <hump@...>
To: ev@...
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Thanks for the advises. But they really don't apply in this specific instance.

Let me try to explain. The MOSFET in question is the main contactor driver for
the controller. It is the only device,
i.e. not paralleled with others. The pad that it mounts to is basically useless,
it is barely larger than the TO-220
base and is not electrically connected to anything. There is supposed to be
circuitry that limits the output of this
fet to 2 amps (according to the manual). When the FET shorted of course the
current limiting circuitry was then
useless and the FET went into unlimited current. I was troubleshooting my setup,
wondering why the controller wouldn't
hold the contactor in. Apparantly it wouldn't hold it in because the circuit was
functioning properly, then the
circuit failed, the contactor held in, and melted the rivet(because here is no
heatsink). I replaced the FET, but
can't find a source for the rivets. Until, I knew what to call them.... thanks
James.

see http://www.itw-fastex.com/catalog/006.php for the part in question.

I am going to fuse my contactor coil with a 2 amp slo-blo. Hopefully I'll
figure out what the heck is going on before
too long.

Is there a general range of resistance values a contactor coil should have which
would indicate it's pull in threshold?

--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"Ignorance is treatable, with a good prognosis. However, if left untreated, it
develops into Arrogance, which is often
fatal. :-)" -- Lee Hart

Get your own FREE evgrin.com email address;
send a request to ryan at evsourcecom

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...] On
> Behalf Of Dave
> Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 3:48 PM
> To: ev@...
> Subject: Re: small part needed
>
> And use a good heatsink contact dope, such as the type used on CPU chips in
> computers.
>
> "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"
>
> Dave
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roger Stockton" <rstockton@...>
> To: <ev@...>
> Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 12:41 PM
> Subject: RE: small part needed
>
>
>> Tim Humphrey [mailto:hump@...] wrote:
>>
>>> Now I need a part for my controller. this is a small 2 piece
>>> nylon? part that is used instead of a screw/nut to hold a
>>> TO-220 to it's heatsink. The piece had three fingers that go
>>> through the hole in the transistor and heatsink and a pin
>>> that then presses into the 3 fingers through the hole from
>>> the other side, spreading them apart and tightening them in the hole.
>>>
>>> My electronic supplier knew what I was talking about, but
>>> doesn't know what their called and doesn't carrry them.
>>>
>>> So, anybody know what they are called, and/or where I can
>>> find them. Mine melted. So did the MOSFET (IRF540N) it was holding.
>>
>> I realise this isn't really answering your question, but I would suggest
>> replacing that nylon part with a nylon bolt and washer (or a metal bolt
>> and washer with a standard insulating bushing to maintain electical
>> isoaltion from the TO220's tab). The nylon part you are describing
>> cannot apply any significant pressure to the TO220 to keep it in good
>> thermal contact with the heatsink. It may be a good choice for
>> fast/cheap production, but a more labour-intensive bolt+nut will more
>> securely hold the device to the heatsink and should improve the
>> reliability of the controller.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Roger.
>>
>

--Apple-Mail-14-832391220

Message-ID: <0c0301c5842e$16be00c0$6001a8c0@Steve>
From: "STEVE CLUNN" <steveclunn@...>
To: <ev@...>
Subject: Re: I'm getting closer! (found a donor car) Comments?
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 21:29:53 -0500
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Seeley" <To: <ev@...>
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 8:20 PM
> choice after all.
>
> I told my friend, to call the junk yard. He got a good show anyway!!!
>
> The search is back on! Better luck next time!!!
>
> Chris Seeley
>
>
the porsche 924's sell pretty cheep , ( with a blown engine ) and to have a
lot of room for batteries .
steve clunn

--Apple-Mail-14-832391220

Message-ID: <20050709025510.90105.qmail@...>
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 19:55:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Rod Hower <rodhower@...>
Subject: Re: small part needed
To: ev@...
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

"Is there a general range of resistance values a
contactor coil should
have which would indicate it's pull in threshold?"
What voltage is the coil?
I can measure some of my forklift contactor coils in
the basement, I have 24, 36 and 42 volt varieties.
The GE control card has a 0.1 ohm resistor for current
limit. I'll have to check schematics to see where the
threshold for overcurrent shutdown is.
I think resistance measurement of the coil is a good
start, let me know what your coil resistance is and
what voltage it is rated at and we can see if it is
reasonable.
Rod
--- Tim Humphrey <hump@...> wrote:

> Thanks for the advises. But they really don't apply
> in this specific instance.
>
> Let me try to explain. The MOSFET in question is the
> main contactor driver for the controller. It is the
> only device,
> i.e. not paralleled with others. The pad that it
> mounts to is basically useless, it is barely larger
> than the TO-220
> base and is not electrically connected to anything.
> There is supposed to be circuitry that limits the
> output of this
> fet to 2 amps (according to the manual). When the
> FET shorted of course the current limiting circuitry
> was then
> useless and the FET went into unlimited current. I
> was troubleshooting my setup, wondering why the
> controller wouldn't
> hold the contactor in. Apparantly it wouldn't hold
> it in because the circuit was functioning properly,
> then the
> circuit failed, the contactor held in, and melted
> the rivet(because here is no heatsink). I replaced
> the FET, but
> can't find a source for the rivets. Until, I knew
> what to call them.... thanks James.
>
> see http://www.itw-fastex.com/catalog/006.php for
> the part in question.
>
>
> I am going to fuse my contactor coil with a 2 amp
> slo-blo. Hopefully I'll figure out what the heck is
> going on before
> too long.
>
> Is there a general range of resistance values a
> contactor coil should have which would indicate it's
> pull in threshold?
>
>
> --
> Stay Charged!
> Hump
> "Ignorance is treatable, with a good prognosis.
> However, if left untreated, it develops into
> Arrogance, which is often
> fatal. :-)" -- Lee Hart
>
> Get your own FREE evgrin.com email address;
> send a request to ryan at evsourcecom
>
>
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-ev@...
> [mailto:owner-ev@...] On
> > Behalf Of Dave
> > Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 3:48 PM
> > To: ev@...
> > Subject: Re: small part needed
> >
> > And use a good heatsink contact dope, such as the
> type used on CPU chips in
> > computers.
> >
> > "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"
> >
> > Dave
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Roger Stockton" <rstockton@...>
> > To: <ev@...>
> > Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 12:41 PM
> > Subject: RE: small part needed
> >
> >
> >> Tim Humphrey [mailto:hump@...] wrote:
> >>
> >>> Now I need a part for my controller. this is a
> small 2 piece
> >>> nylon? part that is used instead of a screw/nut
> to hold a
> >>> TO-220 to it's heatsink. The piece had three
> fingers that go
> >>> through the hole in the transistor and heatsink
> and a pin
> >>> that then presses into the 3 fingers through the
> hole from
> >>> the other side, spreading them apart and
> tightening them in the hole.
> >>>
> >>> My electronic supplier knew what I was talking
> about, but
> >>> doesn't know what their called and doesn't
> carrry them.
> >>>
> >>> So, anybody know what they are called, and/or
> where I can
> >>> find them. Mine melted. So did the MOSFET
> (IRF540N) it was holding.
> >>
> >> I realise this isn't really answering your
> question, but I would suggest
> >> replacing that nylon part with a nylon bolt and
> washer (or a metal bolt
> >> and washer with a standard insulating bushing to
> maintain electical
> >> isoaltion from the TO220's tab). The nylon part
> you are describing
> >> cannot apply any significant pressure to the
> TO220 to keep it in good
> >> thermal contact with the heatsink. It may be a
> good choice for
> >> fast/cheap production, but a more
> labour-intensive bolt+nut will more
> >> securely hold the device to the heatsink and
> should improve the
> >> reliability of the controller.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> Roger.
> >>
> >
>
>
>

--Apple-Mail-14-832391220

From: Neon John <jgd@...>
To: ev@...
Subject: Re: Engine Generator Question
Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 23:47:30 -0400
Message-ID: <i6guc11icf3042l0ivhbd8v905e2kgqa1m@...>
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On Fri, 8 Jul 2005 10:46:56 -0700 (MST), "Peter VanDerWal"
<evdl@...> wrote:

>> On Thu, 7 Jul 2005 12:26:16 -0700 (PDT), jerry dycus
>> <jerry5335@...> wrote:

>Sure <raises hand> a serveral times. Plus numerous trips to my daughters
>house and back, 960 miles each way. Seems kinda silly to stop with only a
>couple hours to go, so we always did it in one trip (14-15 hours,
>depending on breaks)

I've done those kinds of drive too, and still occasionally do. BUT I
also hit the wall at about 16 or 17 hours. I don't think I could do
24 hours, even in a degraded state of alertness. Anyway, enough of
that.

>
>> If the car can run on as little a 600 wh/mile at 60 mph (can any
>> currently available EV actually run that efficiently over the long
>> term in traffic and dealing with elevations?), you're looking at a
>> power requirement of 36kw.
>
>Umm, that's a tad high, I'd say 15-20 kwh is more accurate for typical
>EVs. Jerry will probably disagree (and insist it's much lower) but he
>tends to be wildly optimistic.
...
>My pickup (far from efficient) uses approx 15kw at 60 mph on flat ground.
>Figure a bit more in the hills (lots more going up, zero kw coming down,
>possibly regen if your vehicle has it). A reasonably efficient, full size
>EV could easily average 15-20 kw/h at 60 mph.

I'm having a little trouble with these numbers. The reason I am is
that I've done quite a bit of coast-down testing over the years using
both a GPS-based system and a homemade doppler radar-based system.
Using 746 watts to the HP, you're talking about your pickup truck
cruising at 60 mph on 20 hp. My Caprice which is much more
aerodynamic than a pickup needs 23 hp at 60 mph. An old VW bug needs
16. A first generation Datsun Z with 205mm tires needs 16 (amazing as
it may seem, the bug and Z are the same.) I'd have to dig through old
records to find numbers for other full sized vehicles.

This is power being consumed by the total combination of air drag,
road friction and all the frictional losses in the drivetrain. To
convert that back to electrical power, we'd have to figure the
efficiency of the motor and, depending on where the power measurement
was made, the controller. 20 hp worth of losses might be 26 hp or
about 20kw if the combined motor and controller ended up being, say,
76% (motor 80%, controller 95%.)

>If you are actually getting 10 kw from the genny, then you only need 5-10
>from the batteries. A decnet set of Lithium whatever batteries could
>probably last 4 hours before needing to recharge. Have a nice leasurly
>meal and the genny could put it back in a couple hours, less if there is
>opertunity charging available.

I don't think Li batteries are practical for the rest of us without
deep pockets. Let's say we could fit in 36 6 volt golf cart batteries
or some other combination that would give us 220 ah (20 hour rate).
That would be 216 volt * 220 ah = 47.5kw. BUT, let's take Peukert
into account. At a 4 hour discharge rate the capacity becomes 154 ah
or 33kwh to 100% discharge. At 80% discharge, 27kwh. The discharge
current at 4 hours is 55 amps or 12kw.

That would be doable at first glance if the weight can be handled.
BUT. Now there is the issue of continuous charge/discharge that Lee
mentioned earlier. Can you cool all these batteries adequately? How
much energy is consumed in that endeavor? How about the electric
motor? Can the ADCs that so many of us use handle 20+ hp continuously
AND handle the hills? I don't have enough experience to know.

For all these reasons, a pusher trailer with the wheels mechanically
connected to the engine makes the most sense to me. It can be done
cheaply, efficiently and cleanly.

A parallel hybrid setup where the gas engine supplies the base motive
power for cruise and the electric motor supplies acceleration and hill
climbing power but no cruise power would seem to be the best
configuration to me. The gas engine-driven generator charges the EV
batteries while on cruise and on downhills if there isn't enough regen
or if regen is dispensed with.

One could do some very interesting experiments with the gas engine
once crisp transient behavior was no longer a requirement. Lean burn,
stratified charge, stuff like that.

John

---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN

--Apple-Mail-14-832391220

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From: "Paul G." <paul-g@...>
Subject: Re: State of Charge calculations - Eureka!!!
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 20:50:32 -0700
To: ev@...

On Jul 8, 2005, at 12:13 PM, Roger Stockton wrote:

> No. 1^n = 1 true enough, but not so for the units:
>
> (1 amp)^n = 1 amp^n
>
> (If this is not obvious, consider 1ft x 1ft = (1ft)^2 = 1 ft^2.)
>
> Hence the issue with Cp *not* having units of Ah for any value of n
> other than 1.
>

Get OVER the parenthesis, notice the formula without any (I^n * Ti =
Cp). Someone else made a typo, or didn't understand math conventions. I
didn't understand the math level of everyone listening the first time I
posted so I wrote it out longhand with brackets around each term. We
have to work with these limitations (including sometimes differing
international standards of expression.) The worst part is that even
this math is not all that accurate - it fails to properly describe lead
acid batteries accurately at very high and very low amp discharge
rates.

Paul "neon" G.

--Apple-Mail-14-832391220

Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.1.20050709001811.020c43c0@...>
Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 00:20:23 -0400
To: ev@...
From: Duncan Orthner <duncan.orthner@...>
Subject: RE: Advancing ETEK motors
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 07:42 PM 7/8/05 -0400, you wrote:

>I could also measure the motor current with a clamp-on meter to get the same
>results I guess.
>
>Yep!
>
> So, what you are saying is that with an advanced motor, the
>amps at a given voltage/rpm will be increased resulting in more torque? Is
>that correct?

Does this procedure require that the motor have a load on it? Or will it
work with the no load speed for a given voltage?

Cheers, Duncan

--Apple-Mail-14-832391220

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Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-15-842280901
From: elaine chiu <mudfud1818@...>
Subject: Re: how to upgrade converted pickup truck?
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 21:30:01 -0700

--Apple-Mail-15-842280901
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steve,

I happen to have 13 - old 12v batteries sitting around. i'll load them
up and see what happens. will let you know.

any way to find out the exact motor specs? I think that you're right
that the motor was bought surplus.

what's the usual rating for what you'd put in a pickup with 26 batts?

thanks for the info.

elaine

----- Original Message -----
From: "elaine chiu" <>
> motor is shabmuller, I think 10 inch diameter. don't know the length.
> it reads 36 volts, 150 amps, 4.5 kW (?). no external blower, but easy
> enough to add one.
>
This sounds like one that was being sold at Supplus center awhile back
, I
got one and did a car then later replaced it with a 9" net gain. . as I
remember it was rated at 6 hp .

> weight wise, the truck is lighter than stock right now and I'm sure
the
> suspension could handle the batteries.

I started with 12 golf cart bats , I went to 20 but the motor was to
small
for the extra weight . the car is in the album with the motor , never
up
graded the pictures to the new 9 . it's the hyndia under russ weaver.
he's
still driving it :-) ./

>
>
> you have a good point about going 26 x 6 volts.

if its the same motor that I had then it won't come close to pulling
the
weight of 26 batts .
sorry
steve clunn
--Apple-Mail-15-842280901
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----

--Apple-Mail-14-832391220

From: Neon John <jgd@...>
To: ev@...
Subject: Re: Details !!!! Re: Engine Generator Question
Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 00:36:53 -0400
Message-ID: <f6juc1de3vojlc19cpt8qk9t61vs5mobg4@...>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Fri, 8 Jul 2005 16:24:08 -0700 (PDT), jerry dycus
<jerry5335@...> wrote:

>
> Of course I disagree, what would you expect ;-))
> But my disgreements are based on facts. My
> E woody gets MOL 100wthrs/mile from the plug at 45mph
>proven by plugging in to an AC power pole type
>electric meter divided by the miles driven. I did this
>many times commuting to work over 2 yrs.

OH, I don't doubt it at 45 mph. But power required rises as the cube
of speed. Cd doesn't matter much at 45 but it sure does at 60. At 45
mph you're mostly rolling resistance and parasitic losses. Above that
aero drag starts to take a chunk out. That sharp knee in the curve
happens in the 50-60 mph range with most vehicles that I've tested.

Would you drive 24 hours at 45 mph? I'm genuinely curious. That'd be
like water torture to me.

> Of course that's because I'm cheap both for
>materials to build such a beast but also so much
>electricity to run it. I'm proud of my $.01/mile
>electric fuel cost. Mine can compete head on with
>ICE's on a cost bassis and win including battery costs
>by a lot!! Can yours?

Yeah, but remember I'm driving a 72 volt Citi. The thought of doing
even 200 miles in a sitting in that thing sends my butt into
convulsions!!! I love it for darting around town but for travel, even
if it had infinite power? Nope.

> MOL even's out.

OK, ya got me. What's MOL? I though I had most TLAs down pat.

> Have you rented lately?? I built the E woody for
>10 days of rental!!!

Yeah, but not from a major chain. Last time I rented while my main
car was in the shop I got an 8 year old Taurus for $15/day, unlimited
mileage from a local used car/rent-a-wreck lot. It was in good
running condition, moderate cosmetic shape. That's all I require.

So what does insurance cost on that car of yours? Here in TN, my
liability-only coverage is essentially the same on my Citi as my
Caprice. If my Citi was my only car and I didn't have to go out of
town much, I'd have to think long and hard about taking on the expense
of a second car that would just sit there most of the time.

> Since you easily get 11-12kw from a gal of gas in
>a DC gen and I get 100wthrs/mile, then what would be
>optimistic?

I assume you mean 11-12kwh from a gallon of gas? I think that may be
pushing things a bit. I'm looking at the manuals for several
generators that I own.

The Impact 36g inverter generator is listed as

half load 0.32 gal/hr
Full load 0.54 gal/hr
For 3600 watt output. Scaling up, 3600 / .54 == 6.67 kwh/gal

My QuietPack generator at 7.5kw is

Half load 0.8
Full 1.28

Scaling down, 7.5 / 1.28 = 5.86 kwh/gal

I know that the QuietPack sacrifices some economy for quiet, low speed
operation and the alternator has a wound field so that's not
surprising.

The Honda EU3000i (2800 watt output) is claimed to be one of the most
efficient units available. It is listed as consuming 0.47 gal/hr at
full load. IOW, essentially equivalent to the Generac Impact 36.

Both the Impact and the Honda use PM 3 phase high frequency
alternators with rare earth magnets. About the most efficient
generator going right now. There may be a little work that can be
done with the engine but I doubt the effects would matter much. A
water cooled engine with convection driven cooling (no pump losses)
would get rid of the power consumed by the cooling fan which would
help a little.

I think you're going to have a very hard time going above 7kwh/gal
with a conventional engine.

>> > Why not just buy a hybrid, pile the trunk or rear
>
> John, what do you think I'm doing!!!! I would
>have thought that was obvious. It's just that it's an
>EV dominated hybrid with enough range where the ICE
>needs to be use only 5-25% of the time depending on
>it's use. Other hybrids are just too ineff to use
>except maybe the Insight with Li-ions.
> To be honest I have people coming out of the
>woodwork to wanting buy these and haven't even offered
>them for sale!!! 2 more today!! And won't until I have
>one done for sale as I don't believe in that.

To tell the truth, for some reason, your project hasn't caught my
attention yet. I imagine your descriptions have been buried down in
some of these threads that change subjects several times and just go
on and on. I generally kill a thread after a couple of days. Do you
have a web site?

> Great idea, do you have $45k+?
> My goal is to bring an affordable EV most
>everyone can afford, maintain with 70-100 mile range,
>80mph for $13k with unlimited hybrid range as an
>option. I don't see any of you doing it. Why? Scared?

In my case, time, money, other priorities.

> If you were really into EV's, you would give
>solutions instead of just saying it can't be done,
>putting it down. Why don't you be part of the solution
>instead of being the problem?

Glad to but nothing neither of us can do will beat the numbers. It
seems to me that's what you're attempting when you say you can get
11kwh/hr out of gasoline and when you say you can run at highway
speeds at 100wh/mile.

I'm one of those who tends to reach for the welder before I reach for
the calculator but in this case it seems like the calculations say
that what you're trying regarding efficiency just can't be done, at
least not on the cheap.

If you can bring in a 100 mile EV for $13k, then put my name on the
waiting list too.

John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN

--Apple-Mail-14-832391220

From: Neon John <jgd@...>
To: ev@...
Subject: Re: Engine Generator: Pusher trailer option re: Jerry
Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 00:38:49 -0400
Message-ID: <64luc1d211vh5sin5n2nab5ro78qf5saj7@...>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 16:32:03 -0700, Jeff Shanab
<jshanab@...> wrote:

>Very good point and the pump is internal, Maybe I could create a small
>amont of pressure by using a pump on the cooling line and a check valve,
>just enough to lubricate.
>
>I actually thought of just letting the ICE idle and leave it in neutral.
>Use a hand throttle for the EV drive. Better just to put a stick in it i
>guess

There are a lot of cars that can be towed without the engine running
without transmission damage. Saturns, many hondas, some fords, etc.
The way to find out is to inquire if the specific model can be towed
4-down behind a motorhome. Most dealers have that info available.

John

---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN

--Apple-Mail-14-832391220

Message-ID: <009a01c58441$027ec410$0902a8c0@Fabulouse>
From: "Dave" <Wilkerbeast01@...>
To: <ev@...>
Subject: Re: Engine Generator: Pusher trailer option re: Jerry
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 21:45:19 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
format=flowed;
charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

If you have the engine idling, and it is being towed, the transmission will
be pressurized, and the engine will be turned by the axels. I did this once
on an Opel Kaddet I was flat towing.

"Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"

Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Neon John" <jgd@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 9:38 PM
Subject: Re: Engine Generator: Pusher trailer option re: Jerry

> On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 16:32:03 -0700, Jeff Shanab
> <jshanab@...> wrote:
>
>
>>Very good point and the pump is internal, Maybe I could create a small
>>amont of pressure by using a pump on the cooling line and a check valve,
>>just enough to lubricate.
>>
>>I actually thought of just letting the ICE idle and leave it in neutral.
>>Use a hand throttle for the EV drive. Better just to put a stick in it i
>>guess
>
> There are a lot of cars that can be towed without the engine running
> without transmission damage. Saturns, many hondas, some fords, etc.
> The way to find out is to inquire if the specific model can be towed
> 4-down behind a motorhome. Most dealers have that info available.
>
> John
>
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.johngsbbq.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
>

--Apple-Mail-14-832391220

Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 21:51:16 -0700
Subject: Source For Miniature Ball-Joints/Ball-Socket
From: Marvin Campbell <marvincampbell@...>
To: EV Discussion <ev@...>
Message-ID: <BEF4A5D4.562F%marvincampbell@...>
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Found it at a local speed shop.
Ball-socket/stud on one end with a cable clamp on the other.
Cable goes in hole in the middle and gets clamped down by a set-screw.
All I have to do is cut the barrel ends off my cables and we're back in
bidness (though I hate to cut things).
>From what I'm told, I'll probably never find anything like the original
set-up, i.e., stainless steel socket with cable clevis. Probably a one-off
deal or some super esoteric aircraft something-or-other.
At least these things will work!
Thanks again for all the extra leads and ideas, EVerybody.
Marv

--Apple-Mail-14-832391220

Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622)
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-Id: <849db5e8213b38381897e5028e1a4613@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
To: ev@...
From: elaine chiu <mudfud1818@...>
Subject: Re: how to upgrade converted pickup truck?
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 21:58:15 -0700

Begin forwarded message:

> From: elaine chiu <mudfud1818@...>
> Date: July 8, 2005 9:30:01 PM PDT
> To: ev@...
> Subject: Re: how to upgrade converted pickup truck?
>
> steve,
>
> I happen to have 13 - old 12v batteries sitting around. i'll load
> them up and see what happens. will let you know.
>
> any way to find out the exact motor specs? I think that you're right
> that the motor was bought surplus.
>
> what's the usual rating for what you'd put in a pickup with 26 batts?
>
> thanks for the info.
>
> elaine
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "elaine chiu" <>
> > motor is shabmuller, I think 10 inch diameter. don't know the
> length.
> > it reads 36 volts, 150 amps, 4.5 kW (?). no external blower, but
> easy
> > enough to add one.
> >
> This sounds like one that was being sold at Supplus center awhile
> back , I
> got one and did a car then later replaced it with a 9" net gain. . as
> I
> remember it was rated at 6 hp .
>
>
> > weight wise, the truck is lighter than stock right now and I'm sure
> the
> > suspension could handle the batteries.
>
> I started with 12 golf cart bats , I went to 20 but the motor was to
> small
> for the extra weight . the car is in the album with the motor , never
> up
> graded the pictures to the new 9 . it's the hyndia under russ weaver.
> he's
> still driving it :-) ./
>
> >
> >
> > you have a good point about going 26 x 6 volts.
>
> if its the same motor that I had then it won't come close to pulling
> the
> weight of 26 batts .
> sorry
> steve clunn

--Apple-Mail-14-832391220--

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