EV Digest 4492

Topics covered in this issue include:

1) Re: how to upgrade converted pickup truck?
by Ryan Stotts <stotts.ryan@...>
2) Re: Source For Miniature Ball-Joints/Ball-Socket
by Ryan Stotts <stotts.ryan@...>
3) Current limit!!!! Re: Advancing ETEK motors
by "slodown27" <slodown27@...>
4) How my Etek died, recommendations, Re: Current limit!!!! Re: Advancing
ETEK motors
by jerry dycus <jerry5335@...>
5) Re: State of Charge calculations
by "Philippe Borges" <philippe.borges@...>
6) Re: PFC Chargers.on DC
by "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
7) Re: Details !!!! Re: Engine Generator Question
by jerry dycus <jerry5335@...>
8) Re: I'm getting closer! (found a donor car) Comments?
by jerry dycus <jerry5335@...>
9) Re: I'm getting closer! (found a donor car) Comments?
by "Mark Ward" <thescreendoctor@...>
10) NSU Sport Prinz Glider.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
11) Contactor parameters
by Rod Hower <rodhower@...>
12) EVDL OT Warning RE: eBay.com Periodical Verification System
by "Peter VanDerWal" <evdl@...>
13) Sears Craftman Conversion - Motor Mounting Pictures
by Mark Hastings <evblazer@...>
14) Re: Details !!!! Re: Engine Generator Question
by "Peter VanDerWal" <evdl@...>
15) Re: Engine Generator Question
by "Peter VanDerWal" <evdl@...>
16) Re: EVDL OT Warning RE: eBay.com Periodical Verification System
by Michael Hurley <mephit@...>
17) Contactor info plus blatant plug
by "Roy LeMeur" <roylemeur@...>
18) Re: State of Charge calculations
by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
19) Re: Advancing ETEK motors
by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
20) Re: Pollution in small engines, Re: Rules of thumb for engine,
Generat...
by Benteaches@...
21) Re: Sears Craftman Conversion - Motor Mounting Pictures
by "Paul G." <paul-g@...>

elaine chiu wrote:

>any way to find out the exact motor specs?

Not much, but it's all I could find..

http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/shabmuller.htm

Marvin Campbell wrote:

> Found it at a local speed shop.
> Ball-socket/stud on one end with a cable clamp on the other.

What's the intended purpose of those?

Hello all, New to this forum and first posting.

Wouldnt it help to identify where exactly in the motor that the
meltdown occurred from those that have done it? This could help
predict the max current better, right?

I.E. Was it a welded commutator, were there arc burns across the
rotor, or the wiring, was it insulation, etc.


--- In ev-list-archive@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Stockton" <ev@l...>
wrote:
> Ken Trough [mailto:ken@v...] wrote:
>
> > I appreciate the points, but most of us know that the
> > published specs on many motors can be safely exceeded,
> > sometimes by a great margin. I'm interested in the
> > actual limits, not the published specs.
>
> Well, good luck ;^>
>
> I rather suspect that you won't find anyone other than the
manufacturer
> who is willing to do the destructive testing necessary to
establish the
> real limits for a variety of currents and durations. The racers
may be
> able to state that they can draw X amps for Y seconds and the motor
> hasn't melted after Z runs, and may be able to say the motor fried
when
> we tried turning up the current to 2X, but be unable to tell you
how
> long they held what current in either case (so you don't know if X
amps
> would melt the motor if sustained for 1.5 Y seconds or not, and you
> don't know how long 2X amps can be sustained before the motor
fries).
> >
> > Will an ETEK really melt down if you exceed 330A for
> > one minute? I've read about meltdowns, but they seem
> > rare and usually under long and steep climbing conditions.
>
> I think you've answered your own question. Jerry says his Etek
fried
> with only about 300A or so on it, and Etek says 300(330A) for
> 30sec(1min), so it is a pretty safe bet that if you sustain 300A
or so
> for more than a few minutes you will almost certainly fry the
motor.
>
> > I assume that forced air cooling raises these thresholds
considerably?
>
> Yep. It may not actually raise the ultimate current
significantly, but
> it will increase the length of time that a given current can be
> sustained without damage since it allows more of the heat to be
removed
> from the motor.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.

Hi Slodown and All,

--- slodown27 <slodown27@...> wrote:

> Hello all, New to this forum and first posting.

Welcome. A name would be nice as we like to know
who we are talikng to.


>
> Wouldnt it help to identify where exactly in the
> motor that the
> meltdown occurred from those that have done it?
> This could help
> predict the max current better, right?

Great question!!

>
> I.E. Was it a welded commutator, were there arc
> burns across the
> rotor, or the wiring, was it insulation, etc.

In my case it was the commutator that was the weak
link.
The motor was warm though had been sitting for a
few minutes after being hot. It had about 50 total
miles on it.
The situation was starting up a slight incline
driveway with a 4.3-1 drive ratio, 12" tires, 22" dia
driving a 1,000 lb EV.
The controller was a contator and a GC starting
resistor in series with 36vdc 3/4 charged T105 batt
pack with 4 and 6gge wires so I doubt current was over
350 amps though could be wrong.
Damage was the commutator melted in 4 spots, ie
2 winding, which then solidfied into copper balls
still attached to the commutator which rather roughed
up the brushes as it did start and drove a little ways
before the damage was impossible to ignore. I
couldn't believe that it would burn up in those
conditions. That's what I get for thinking.
The commutator is just the armature coil wire
brought to the center and machined flat for the
brushes to ride on.
EV'ers should know PM motors while eff, are
vastly different than series motors in how they work,
their current draw, speed carictaristics.
While the Etek is rated at 9hp and 330 amps, it
can't hold a candle to my 3.5hp 36vdc, 100amp cont GE
series motor in power, acceleration, reliability as it
has in place of the Etek with the same load, ratio,
incline I still start from, without a problem since I
had the 35+ yr old brushes in it replaced as the leads
had become corroded. And why the E tek was in the E
woody so I could get around while getting parts for
the GE.
The E tek was more eff but if it won't last,
then not good!! Had I used 2 of them as I had planned,
then it probably would have been alright but I was
foolish in thinking that because it was rated at 9hp,
it would handle what a 3.5hp series motor would but I
was wrong and cost me dearly.
I would recommend a cooling fan, a box type on
the brush holder face, as high a gear ratio as you can
and not more than 5-600lbs total weight including
driver per Etek, especially if you have hills. I'm in
Fla and many refuse to call ours hills ;-)
And a temp gauge with warning light to make sure
as they have little mass so heat up rather quickly.
I'd run the fan all the time to keep the motor as low
temp at all time so you have headroom when you need
it.
Those going over 330 amps peak, 150 cont are
asking for trouble and short life in this motor. It's
one thing to race it that way, it's another if you
want reliable transport.
I still really like this motor and used within
it's specs, should be an Eff, reliable one, but if
starting up hills with 1 motor and over 600lbs geared
for over 45mph, it's not going to work for long as
others have found out too.
But for my long distance 1300lb EV, I'm going
to 2 series 6.7" motors for series/parallel starting
torque, higher gear ratios and better top speeds.
Much can be said for a 2 motor face to face
mounting set up keeping the eff but allowing heavier
use without burning it up for 500-1200lb total weight
EV's.
Also it has a 4,000rpm redline, unlike series
that can go much faster stock like 5500-6500rpm. I
really don't like this as it means you can't use it as
a 48vdc generator without a regen controller to buck
up the voltage. I could use 2 of them in series to get
72vdc nom charging voltage at 100 amps eff, reliably
and may do that but a 6.7" shunt gen is much cheaper.
So if you want a top speed of 50mph or more,
the Etek is limited as the gear ratio is too low for
one motor on heavier vehicles without going to a
second or more Eteks.
But with a Sevcon or other regen controller,
they can increase your EV's range 20% or more or 10%
over a series motor without regen so worth using for
that point alone.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus





__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail for Mobile
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
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Could someone please write the right formule to use ? i have been lost in
the way of multiple interesting but different formula post :^)

Philippe

Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php


----- Original Message -----
From: "Lightning Ryan" <ev@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 2:57 AM
Subject: Re: State of Charge calculations


> Say, would any of you guys happen to be willing to put some of this
> great information on a page for everyones future benefit and reference?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_pack#Calculating_State_Of_Charge
> Simply click on the little edit button to the right of that section!
> You don't even have to regester as a user and can remain anonymous.
>
> ThanX !!
> L8r
> Ryan
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <rmanzan@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 3:00 PM
Subject: Re: PFC Chargers...Let's hear the Positive Side!


> Amp meter huh???
> Hi Rich;

Yeah yur right! Whethehell would ya FIT it anyhow?
> Yea I have heard that one before... It's a real pain....And well most of
us
> have Amp meters just a couple of feet away on the main Dash Gages... so
> adding one is redundant.
> But yea, it could make for a nice dress up feature.

> Bigger box for a volts an' amps?

> Polarity on DC, NOPE the line rectifier is a full bride,.. bride? BRIDGE
ya meant? EVEN you can't plug
> it in backwards!!

Thats what I like to hear AFTER plugging in my Harbor Fright Chinesy
inverter bass ackwards, blew out all the vitals!
>
> Keep in mind that You need a DC rated breaker to back up the AC breaker on
> the charger.
> You bet! Like running stuff off the Rabbit's 120 volt pack. Just plug it
in with the switch on, like my Black an' Decker mower, Rabbit powered at a
distance from the house, Chord 's not long enough,

But in all seriousness I COULD feed the pfc 20 from the Rabbit's 120
volt pack for charging other stuff, like a Electrac @36 volts or something
like that?
> Your input limits are 12 to 400 DC, Gulp!

Plenty!
> And it a warrenty voiding feature... You break it I fix it, I send a bill.

> Best warrenty in the Biz!

> Oh yea All the PFC chargers can charge to 450 volts DC output. Not 360 not
> 400 but 450 VDC. Some really early ones only did 400, but they were the
> Betas...
>
> So...You can get way up there with the PFC chargers.
> High enough for me. Well, maybe if I wanna plugitin to a 580 vdc Trolley
caroverhead wire at the Trolley Museum?That's a bit much, I would say??
figgurin' on a diode and a damn BIG dropping resister for Museum Quick
Charges!

Seeya

Bob

Hi John and All,

--- Neon John <jgd@...> wrote:

> On Fri, 8 Jul 2005 16:24:08 -0700 (PDT), jerry dycus
> <jerry5335@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > Of course I disagree, what would you expect
> ;-))
> > But my disgreements are based on facts. My
> > E woody gets MOL 100wthrs/mile from the plug at
> 45mph
> >proven by plugging in to an AC power pole type
> >electric meter divided by the miles driven. I did
> this
> >many times commuting to work over 2 yrs.
>
> OH, I don't doubt it at 45 mph. But power required
> rises as the cube
> of speed. Cd doesn't matter much at 45 but it sure

Most vehicle's rolling drag equals aero drag at
between , like the E woody with high cd at 30 mph and
low cds at 45mph. The Freedom EV will be the later.
Also 60 mph is 33% faster than 45mph so aero drag
is about doubled but since my Cd is much less, not bad
and I'm allowed 33% more energy for the same
100wthrs/mile as I'm going 33% farther per hr.
So comparing the E woody at 45mph vs the much
more aero, lower rolling drag Freedom EV at 60mph is I
believe valid.



> does at 60. At 45
> mph you're mostly rolling resistance and parasitic

I've cut most of these losses to very low levels.

> losses. Above that
> aero drag starts to take a chunk out. That sharp
> knee in the curve
> happens in the 50-60 mph range with most vehicles
> that I've tested.

>
> > Of course that's because I'm cheap both for
> >materials to build such a beast but also so much
> >electricity to run it. I'm proud of my $.01/mile
> >electric fuel cost. Mine can compete head on with
> >ICE's on a cost bassis and win including battery
> costs
> >by a lot!! Can yours?
>
> Yeah, but remember I'm driving a 72 volt Citi. The
> thought of doing
> even 200 miles in a sitting in that thing sends my
> butt into
> convulsions!!! I love it for darting around town
> but for travel, even
> if it had infinite power? Nope.

I'm planning much more comfortable seats in mine
;-)) And possibly a bed for 2 to cut motel costs.


>
>
> > MOL even's out.
>
> OK, ya got me. What's MOL? I though I had most
> TLAs down pat.

I believe, More or Less?

>
> > Have you rented lately?? I built the E woody
> for
> >10 days of rental!!!
>
> Yeah, but not from a major chain. Last time I
> rented while my main
> car was in the shop I got an 8 year old Taurus for
> $15/day, unlimited
> mileage from a local used car/rent-a-wreck lot. It
> was in good
> running condition, moderate cosmetic shape. That's
> all I require.

None in Tampa but I to would go that way if
available. But the sale advantage of unlimited range
is great and removes any arguement against EV's. Plus
it sticks it to Detroit!!

>
> So what does insurance cost on that car of yours?

Nothing as it's not required in Fla or Cal for MC's
which with 3 wheels is what the Freedom EV is. We are
allowed to self insure. We have No fault insurance
here so you are required to insure your own car,
driver, passengers if you have 4 wheels.



>
> > Since you easily get 11-12kw from a gal of gas
> in
> >a DC gen and I get 100wthrs/mile, then what would
> be
> >optimistic?
>
> I assume you mean 11-12kwh from a gallon of gas? I
> think that may be
> pushing things a bit. I'm looking at the manuals
> for several
> generators that I own.

I like pushing things ;-))
But my ICE motors will not be like those below,
but modified or diesel.

>
> The Honda EU3000i (2800 watt output) is claimed to
> be one of the most
> efficient units available. It is listed as
> consuming 0.47 gal/hr at
> full load. IOW, essentially equivalent to the
> Generac Impact 36.
>
> Both the Impact and the Honda use PM 3 phase high
> frequency
> alternators with rare earth magnets. About the most
> efficient
> generator going right now. There may be a little
> work that can be
> done with the engine but I doubt the effects would
> matter much. A
> water cooled engine with convection driven cooling
> (no pump losses)
> would get rid of the power consumed by the cooling
> fan which would
> help a little.
>
> I think you're going to have a very hard time going
> above 7kwh/gal
> with a conventional engine.

I never said it would be easy!
But just by advancing the timing on these motor
from their stock setting compromised greatly for ease
of starting, will greatly increase fuel eff, lower
emissions as you know working on racing engines how
important correct timing, high voltage, long duration
spark is.
Add to that better carburation of an SU type carb
or fuel injection and again decreases fuel comsumption
and maybe more compression. And I too plan on a high
eff PM gen as money become available or probably
building my own along with my own drive motors.
Any ideas, parts, ways to do this are always
welcome. If Detroit does it with their engines, no
reason I can't do it with ours.
>
>
> >> > Why not just buy a hybrid, pile the trunk or
> rear
> >
> > John, what do you think I'm doing!!!! I would
> >have thought that was obvious. It's just that it's
> an
> >EV dominated hybrid with enough range where the ICE
> >needs to be use only 5-25% of the time depending on
> >it's use. Other hybrids are just too ineff to use
> >except maybe the Insight with Li-ions.
> > To be honest I have people coming out of the
> >woodwork to wanting buy these and haven't even
> offered
> >them for sale!!! 2 more today!! And won't until I
> have
> >one done for sale as I don't believe in that.
>
> To tell the truth, for some reason, your project
> hasn't caught my
> attention yet. I imagine your descriptions have
> been buried down in
You mean you don't read all of my
posts ;-((, ;-))
I don't mention it that much unless it needs to
be as relivent to a post but most everyone else had
heard about it by now.


> some of these threads that change subjects several
> times and just go
> on and on. I generally kill a thread after a couple
> of days. Do you
> have a web site?

Only the EVProduction wiki, better photo's under
progress, as I want to get one built before offering
it for sale. There is enough Vaporware out their
already. Will sell some gliders of it too.
The amazing thing is the high profit in it
considering all the talk about how expensive building
EV's is suppost to be.
But that's all in how you design it to be easily
built from reasonably priced parts instead of going
for the cutting, bleeding edge most EV companies have
done.


>
>
> > Great idea, do you have $45k+?
> > My goal is to bring an affordable EV most
> >everyone can afford, maintain with 70-100 mile
> range,
> >80mph for $13k with unlimited hybrid range as an
> >option. I don't see any of you doing it. Why?
> Scared?
>
> In my case, time, money, other priorities.

I just got pissed by GM crushing the EV-1's and
that no one was doing EV's for real people. Since I
had the knowledge, composite production experience to
do it and others have been willing to help me, I
decided to go for it.
It's really what I believe the Citi Car should have
been done correctly.

>
> > If you were really into EV's, you would give
> >solutions instead of just saying it can't be done,
> >putting it down. Why don't you be part of the
> solution
> >instead of being the problem?
>
> Glad to but nothing neither of us can do will beat
> the numbers. It
> seems to me that's what you're attempting when you
> say you can get
> 11kwh/hr out of gasoline and when you say you can

Many gas engines get .4lbs/hphr gives you 17.5hphr
so it should be possible if done correctly with a 90%
eff DC gen.
Good diesels get .35lbs/hphr


> run at highway
> speeds at 100wh/mile.

I'm confident I can get 100wthr/mile at 60mph.
But even if I get 80mpg will be plenty good enough
for me but I like to shoot high and I usually get
there.

>
> I'm one of those who tends to reach for the welder
> before I reach for
> the calculator but in this case it seems like the
> calculations say
> that what you're trying regarding efficiency just
> can't be done, at
> least not on the cheap.

I tend to use rules of thumb and known actual
experience though try to find the best examples
instead of the worst and follow how they did good.
I try for 95% of the best so easier and usually
much less costly than 100% of the best.
>
> If you can bring in a 100 mile EV for $13k, then put
> my name on the
> waiting list too.

When they are ready I expect quite a few in that
line ;-)
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus



>
> John
> ---




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Hi Steve, Chris and All,

--- STEVE CLUNN <steveclunn@...> wrote:

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Seeley" <To: <ev@...>
> Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 8:20 PM
> > choice after all.
> >
> > I told my friend, to call the junk yard. He got a
> good show anyway!!!
> >
> > The search is back on! Better luck next time!!!
> >
> > Chris Seeley
> >
> >
> the porsche 924's sell pretty cheep , ( with a blown
> engine ) and to have a
> lot of room for batteries .
> steve clunn

I agree, a great glider is best as after you put
all the work in it, it best to have a EV you are proud
of with some cache like the Porshe, BMW, Karman Ghia,
ect.
All of these are light and strong for their weight
and will hold their value much longer and set you
apart from the crowd.
And as they are usually owned by the rich, once
they get a blown motor, ect, they dump them for a song
as they don't want to be bothered by it with great
bodies, interiors.
So spend a little more and get an outstanding
glider will pay off in the end and if in good shape,
less work, cost to do!! Free many times isn't!!
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus




>
>





__________________________________
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> I agree, a great glider is best as after you put
> all the work in it, it best to have a EV you are proud
> of with some cache like the Porshe, BMW, Karman Ghia,
> ect.

I couldn't agree more! You have to love the vehicle. It affects your
perception of the whole project. If the car is badly deteriorated you have
all that work and expense on top of the conversion. I was outside working
the other day and my wife's friend came by. She made the comment "He really
loves that little car!". Very true! It quicky becomes a passion and the
vehicle takes on an individual personality.

> All of these are light and strong for their weight
> and will hold their value much longer and set you
> apart from the crowd.
> And as they are usually owned by the rich, once
> they get a blown motor, ect, they dump them for a song
> as they don't want to be bothered by it with great
> bodies, interiors.

Happened in my case. Got my Saab for exactly that reason. I would have
certainly cost me thousands more for one in as good a shape that was
running. I am just a teacher...not rich, so no new Saab for me under normal
conditions.

> So spend a little more and get an outstanding
> glider will pay off in the end and if in good shape,
> less work, cost to do!! Free many times isn't!!
> HTH's,
> Jerry Dycus

There are certainly a lot around. I turned down two Ford Taurus M/T cars I
could have gotten for free. They both ran (one smoked), both had good
bodies but high miles...in the end they would be....well still a Taurus,
electric or not. How many millions of those are there?

Just my two cents worth...

Mark Ward
"ElectroSaab"
www.saabrina.blogspot.com

Roger DiRuscio solarrog@... This guy is selling an NSU Sport Prinz
with a non working motor. Last year his price was 700 dollars. This car is
300 pounds lighter than a Datsun 1200. John Wayland(or maybe Marko) take
note. 1267 pounds as I remember. It is sporty looking & would make an
excellent EV. Plenty of support world wide from collectors. This guy has an
NSU page with lots of info including a picture of a Sport Prinz.
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/2529/ This guy (Warren)
comftntrtl@... will buy the motor and voltage regulator from you and
you can sell other parts from it regarding the ICE as this is a collectable
car. This will offset the cost of the glider. This car is in Fremont, CA.
Good luck.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
bassoon@...
415-821-3519

I think it was Mark Hanson who asked for some
contactor parameters.

GE IC4482CTTA100AH224XN (I think this means its rated
at 100Amps continuous and used on a 24 Volt control,
the
contactor is pulled in at 24 but an oscillator cuts
the
voltage back to half of this for continous operatin)

Rcoil Vpull-in Ipull-in V24 I24 Vdrop out
23ohms 11.3V 0.5A 24V 1A 2.3V

GE IC4482CTTA150AH136XN (150A, 36V forklift)
Rcoil Vpull-in Ipull-in V36 I36 Vdrop out
18.5 13V .7A 36V 1.9A 3.3V

GE IC4482CTTA150AH142XN (150A, 48V forklift)
Rcoil Vpull-in Ipull-in V42 I42 Vdrop out
31ohms 15V .5 42V 1.3A 5V

Allbright SW80-501, 18V (golf cart size)
Rcoil Vpull-in Ipull-in V18 I18 Vdrop out
16.4 9V .56A 18V 1.05 2.3V

Allbright? with GE PN? 44A717165-303, 36V
looks like a reversing contactor for a pallet truck
Rcoil Vpull-in Ipull-in V36 I36 Vdrop out
56ohms 20V .35A 36V .62 6.5V

The GE circuit uses a 0.1 ohm resistor for current
limit. The voltage developed across the 0.1 ohm
resistor goes to the base of a MMBT4401 NPN transistor

via a 10Kohm resistor, so I guess it my turn on around
2 Amps?, When this transistor turns on the MOSFET
that controls the contactor coil is turned off.

Rod

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Sorry for the interuption, we now take you back to your regularly
scheduled discussion on EVs.

I put up some pictures of my Tennant Etek mounted up to my craftmans tractor. I
only had to drill one hole and it's pretty much all good to go all lined up and
everything with existing holes.
Charging up the U1 battery did get me some pretty good crawling speed
considering it is a single 12v U1 battery.
http://geocities.com/evblazer/SearsCraftsmanTractorConversion/index.html
I may commision charge 10 or 20 of my BB600's and try them out after I repaint
the mower deck.
Mark Hastings

>> > If the car can run on as little a 600 wh/mile at
>> 60 mph (can any
>> > currently available EV actually run that
>> efficiently over the long
>> > term in traffic and dealing with elevations?),
>> you're looking at a
>> > power requirement of 36kw.
>>
>> Umm, that's a tad high, I'd say 15-20 kwh is more
>
> You think!!
>
>
>> accurate for typical
>> EVs. Jerry will probably disagree (and insist it's
>> much lower) but he
>> tends to be wildly optimistic.
>
> Of course I disagree, what would you expect ;-))
> But my disgreements are based on facts. My
> E woody gets MOL 100wthrs/mile from the plug at 45mph

45mph average or top speed? Anyway, we are talking about 60 mph. Power
(and energy required) go up as the sqare of the speed. So even your
e-woody would take roughly twice that at 60 mph, which works out to around
10kw/hour. I'd suspect it might even take a bit more than that. Hook up
an E-meter and check how much power it draws at 60mph on flat ground
without wind and let us know.

> So I expect that my new optimized composite
> Freedom EV with a CD of about .24, low resistance
> tires, PWM controller, 1,300lb, 2 more eff motors
> series/parallel with a higher gear ratio to do about
> 100wthr/mile at 60mph which isn't that hard as you are
> going 33% more miles.

Color me skeptical, I'll believe it when I see it.

> Also I'm not the only person getting this low
> power level as John Bryan? gets the same in his VW
> Ghia at a fair more weight, slightly worse aero though
> slightly lower frontal area.

Looking at your prototype and John's Ghia, I'll bet you $100 that HE has
the lower total drag. Not only does the Ghia look like it has a smaller
frontal area, but I also think it's has a lower Cd.
I'll grant you that your fiberglass body looks like it has a lower Cd than
the E-woody, but I think your .24 figure is more than a little optimistic.

> For your bloated EV conversions, then yes, you
> will need more as I've always said, about
> 5-7kw/1,000lbs of EV depending on it's eff.

I agree that lighter more aero EVs are defintely desireable (and doable).

And you are definitely winning kudos for lightweight. I just don't buy
your guestimates on Cd, but it looks like you are getting closer to
proving it one way or the other.


>> > Even stopping for 30 minutes every hour for rest
>> and recharge only
>> > reduces the power requirement to 24kw. And that
>> assumes there are
>> > batteries that can take that kind of
>> charge/discharge rate
>> > continuously.
>>
>> My pickup (far from efficient) uses approx 15kw at
>> 60 mph on flat ground.
>> Figure a bit more in the hills (lots more going up,
>> zero kw coming down,
>
> MOL even's out.

Not quite, you loose more energy going up than you can regain going down,
simple physics (mm, 2nd law of thermodynamics?)

>
>> possibly regen if your vehicle has it). A
>> reasonably efficient, full size
>> EV could easily average 15-20 kw/h at 60 mph.
>
> An overweight lead mine maybe!!

Well I did say "full size" and "easily". Besides extrapolations on the
data you've presented for your e-woody indicate that it's not that much
better at 60mph.

>> and in the long run, possibly cheaper too.
>
> Have you rented lately?? I built the E woody for
> 10 days of rental!!!

The vast majority of people in the US will NOT build their own vehicle and
even fewer would be willing to build/drive something like the E-woody.
What I was refering to, is that it's far cheaper to rent a car for 2-3
weeks per year than it is to make paments on a new car for a year.

>
>> See what I mean about wildly optimistic? While this
>
> Since you easily get 11-12kw from a gal of gas in
> a DC gen and I get 100wthrs/mile, then what would be
> optimistic?

At 45 mph! We are talking about highway speeds here Jerry. What does it
draw at 60 mph? At 75?

>
> Great idea, do you have $45k+?

Actually yes, I have that much sitting in my checking account right now.
Not going to spend it on a prius though.

> My goal is to bring an affordable EV most
> everyone can afford, maintain with 70-100 mile range,
> 80mph for $13k with unlimited hybrid range as an
> option. I don't see any of you doing it. Why? Scared?

Jerry, if you actually bring one to market at that price, I might just buy
one.

> If you were really into EV's, you would give
> solutions instead of just saying it can't be done,
> putting it down. Why don't you be part of the solution
> instead of being the problem?

I just don't think being overly optimistic is a good way to solve this
problem. I think being realistic is a better way to build a bussiness for
the long term.
This time next year I'll have enough money saved up that I won't have to
work for a while and can devote a couple years to doing nothing but
working on my ideas. That's when I'll start building my hybrid.
If yours works out, I'll definitely be picking your brains for ideas.
Especially on molds and so forth.

Cheers, and good luck.

> ...
>>My pickup (far from efficient) uses approx 15kw at 60 mph on flat ground.
>>Figure a bit more in the hills (lots more going up, zero kw coming down,
>>possibly regen if your vehicle has it). A reasonably efficient, full
>> size
>>EV could easily average 15-20 kw/h at 60 mph.
>
> I'm having a little trouble with these numbers. The reason I am is
> that I've done quite a bit of coast-down testing over the years using
> both a GPS-based system and a homemade doppler radar-based system.
> Using 746 watts to the HP, you're talking about your pickup truck
> cruising at 60 mph on 20 hp. My Caprice which is much more
> aerodynamic than a pickup needs 23 hp at 60 mph. An old VW bug needs
> 16. A first generation Datsun Z with 205mm tires needs 16 (amazing as

Well, first of all it's a small pickup (87 toyota). Secondly it has LRR
tires and low friction lube in the tranny and diff. These make a
noticable reduction in power requirements.

FWIW, top speed on my pickup is slightly over 70 mph. Max power out of my
batteries (120V worth of 8V GC) is just under 30 kw. All power figures
measured with an E-meter.

> This is power being consumed by the total combination of air drag,
> road friction and all the frictional losses in the drivetrain. To
> convert that back to electrical power, we'd have to figure the
> efficiency of the motor and, depending on where the power measurement
> was made, the controller.

Measured, in my case, between the batteries and the controller.

> I don't think Li batteries are practical for the rest of us without
> deep pockets.

Maybe not now, but they are getting cheaper fast. This hypothetical
vehicle isn't going to be available for a couple years at least, hopefully
Li batteries will be affordable by then. (Perhaps I am the one being
overly optimistic now)

> That would be doable at first glance if the weight can be handled.
> BUT. Now there is the issue of continuous charge/discharge that Lee
> mentioned earlier. Can you cool all these batteries adequately? How
> much energy is consumed in that endeavor?

Lee has a point, however...we are draining the batteries slwoer in this
case (in say 4 hours instead of 30 mintues to 1 hour) so they will have
less heat, also you will have a continuously moving airstream to cool them
while driving. Granted rapid charging them will create some heat, but in
the short run that just improves their performance. Since these long
trips aren't supposed to be all that frequent, the loss in life span is
small.

Still his other concerns are valid (engine and controller heating).
This is one of the reasons that I'm a proponent for parallel hybrid schemes.

> For all these reasons, a pusher trailer with the wheels mechanically
> connected to the engine makes the most sense to me. It can be done
> cheaply, efficiently and cleanly.

This is a good idea.

I prefer having the ICE mounted in/on the vehicle though for convienence.
You don't always know when you head off to work if you'll need to make a
long trip in the middle of the day. Going home for the trailer might not
be practical.
That's why I want to test my idea to see home much difference it makes to
the daily power requirements to lug around the ICE.

>
> A parallel hybrid setup where the gas engine supplies the base motive
> power for cruise and the electric motor supplies acceleration and hill
> climbing power but no cruise power would seem to be the best
> configuration to me.

I concure.

At 9:37 AM -0700 on 7/9/05, Peter VanDerWal wrote:

>Whenever you get an email that asks you to click on a link and log in,
>open a new browser and manually type in the URL instead.

As a related note, real communications from eBay never have a
clickable link in the body of the message for precisely this reason.
They may well ask you to log into your eBay account, but they won't
give you a link to it.
--


Auf wiedersehen!

______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."

"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"

"..No."

"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"

-Real Genius

>Is there a general range of resistance values a
>contactor coil should have which would indicate it's
>pull in threshold?

We just aquired many hundreds of pounds of NOS contactors and during the
course of IDing some of them, I ran across some tables that help you ID coil
voltages and whether or not they are cont. duty or not by measuring coil
resistance.

There is lots of info in these PDFs (including resistance tables)-
http://www.alternativefuelsequipment.com/curtis/pdf/sw180series.pdf
http://www.alternativefuelsequipment.com/curtis/pdf/sw80series.pdf

We have many new contactors in the Cloud Electric online store (some of the
larger ones haven't made it in there just yet)-
http://cloudelectric.com/category.html?UCIDs=1215250

This reversing contactor is our Special of the Week-
http://cloudelectric.com/item.jhtml?UCIDs=866086%7C1215250&PRID=1525364

end blatant plug
.




Roy LeMeur
cloudevtech@...
http://www.cloudelectric.com
http://www.dcelectricsupply.com

Cloud Electric Vehicles
19428 66th Ave So, Q-101
Kent, Washington 98032

phone: 425-251-6380
fax: 425-251-6381
Toll Free: 800-648-7716




My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html

Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html

EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm

Philippe Borges wrote:
> Could someone please write the right formule to use?

Philippe, the problem is that there *is* no "right" formula. If there
were, we'd all be using it.

People have used voltage to indicate SOC forever. It work poorly, but is
so cheap and easy that they do it anyway.

Specific gravity works better, since you are measuring the amount of one
of the reactants remaining (sulphuric acid). But this is slow and
awkward to do. Besides, it's not "fashionable" -- people would rather do
it all electronically.

You can measure current, and compute amphours in/out to determine SOC.
This works well at low rates, but you need to take Peukert into account
for higher currents. I posted the algorithm the E-meter uses -- it works
better than a simple voltmeter, but we all know it is isn't perfect
either.

BTW, Paul Gooch had it right; each second, the E-meter uses the current
to the power of Peukert's exponent to calculate the effective number of
amp-seconds used. It subtracts these from the Peukert capacity to get
the estimated SOC for the bargraph.

It is a very difficult problem to come up with a truely accurate "gas
gauge" for an EV battery. The load current changes rapidly and
unpredictably. The battery's type, age, temperature all play a
significant role. Even if you repeatedly run exactly the same
charge/discharge cycle, the results will change depending on how
"physically fit" the battery is (has it been loafing for a month, or
doing this cycle every day for a month?).

Personally, I'd like to try doing it with fuzzy logic. (No, fuzzy logic
is a serious analytical technique; not fuzzy thinking). Fuzzy logic is a
way to calculate with approximate (fuzzy) data and still get good
results. You define the rules that the system follows, and the fuzzy
logic system "plays the game" by those rules to see what outcomes are
possible. It then gives you the most likely conclusion that fits the
rules.

This is pretty much what a human being does. If someone tells you their
12v battery is at 11v at 100 amps load, you can guess that it is almost
dead (because 10.5v is defined as dead). If they further tell you that
this is a 50 amphour battery, and it is at 75 deg.F, you can improve
your guess to say it is at 20% SOC.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

Stu or Jan wrote:
> I have an 8" Imperial motor. 36 Volts and 80 Amps.
> I spoke with the factory about advancing.
> Simple: Twist until the current is maximum!

Stu, this is wrong.

They should have said MINIMUM current. Maximum current would be with the
brushes 90 degrees off of optimum, where the armature is almost a dead
short and the motor barely runs!

The minimum-current point is where the motor has the most torque but
runs at the lowest speed. Note that this point CHANGES depending on
current! So, you really want to do this adjustment at FULL load, not
no-load.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

In a message dated 7/6/2005 2:08:42 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jerry5335@... writes:

<< > > Hence my suggestions to use a better carb,
> > raise the compression ratio, use an electronic
> igntion

It just isnt that simple.
Raise the compresssion, HC falls a bit, CO remains unchanged and NOX shoots
up.
Advance the timing, HC goes up a bit, CO doesnt change, NOX shoots up
Leaner mixture, HC goes up. CO falls, NOX goes up


Besides accurate fuel injection or after-treatment, the only way to simply
reduce emissions is to retard the timing. You can get by with a slightly leaner
mixture, NOX goes away and HC's and Horsepower plummet; Temps go up.

NOX is a pretty nasty pollutant, and, with the exception of after-treatment
(cataylst), none of the startegies I've seen mentioned on this thread will
address this problem, and in fact most of what has been mentioned will make NOX
worse, way worse.

Ben

On Jul 9, 2005, at 9:16 AM, Mark Hastings wrote:

> I put up some pictures of my Tennant Etek mounted up to my craftmans
> tractor. I only had to drill one hole and it's pretty much all good to
> go all lined up and everything with existing holes.
> Charging up the U1 battery did get me some pretty good crawling speed
> considering it is a single 12v U1 battery.
> http://geocities.com/evblazer/SearsCraftsmanTractorConversion/
> index.html
> I may commision charge 10 or 20 of my BB600's and try them out after I
> repaint the mower deck.
> Mark Hastings
>

I see a Ruland shaft coupler on that Etek! I have one of those in my EV
buggy, only its for a 1.125 inch shaft on both sides with keyway.

Paul "neon" G.