EV Digest 4495

Topics covered in this issue include:

1) Re: TdS Report #75: Photos - Runabout Cycles
by keith vansickle <keithvansickle01@...>
2) Re: Motor improvements
by Jim Husted <hi_torque_electric@...>
3) Re: battery temperature measurement
by "John G. Lussmyer" <Cougar@...>
4) Re: Details !!!! Re: Engine Generator Question
by jerry dycus <jerry5335@...>
5) Re: Pollution in small engines,
by Tim Clevenger <tjclevenger@...>
6) RE: State of Charge calculations - Eureka!!!
by "Myles Twete" <matwete@...>
7) RE: INVENTION ON HOW TO LEAN A CARB ENGINE.
by "Stu or Jan" <stu@...>
8) Re: Schmidt glider.
by Ryan Stotts <stotts.ryan@...>
9) Re: Schmidt glider.
by "Dave" <Wilkerbeast01@...>
10) Re: Re Sears Craftman Conversion - Motor Mounting Pictures
by Christopher Zach <czach@...>
11) Re: Motor improvements
by James Massey <jcmassey@...>
12) Re: Sears Craftman Conversion - Motor Mounting Pictures
by Christopher Zach <czach@...>
13) Power density flooded vs. BB600
by Christopher Zach <czach@...>
14) Start up current problems with PM's Re: Re Sears Craftman Conversion -
Motor Mounting Pictures
by jerry dycus <jerry5335@...>
15) New Beetle EV wins first place!
by "Don Cameron" <ev@...>
16) Small AC motor question
by Ryan Stotts <stotts.ryan@...>
17) Re: A Trihawk Hybrid idea.
by jerry dycus <jerry5335@...>
18) Re: Small AC motor question
by "Cory R. Cross" <crcross@...>
19) Re: Hybrid Engine-LPG+Diesel
by jerry dycus <jerry5335@...>
20) RE: A Trihawk Hybrid idea.
by "Stu or Jan" <stu@...>
21) Aero, Tooling , costs Re: Details !!!!
by jerry dycus <jerry5335@...>

hi all,
if you are interested in human/electric hybreds be
sure to check this out. I just bought the blue trike
without the yellow tops--insted i am adding valence
technology li-ion 48v 40AHR have not recieved the
trike yet but it is on the way. once i get it i will
install the new batts and see how it performs if you
all are interested let me know and i will keep the
list updated if it needs to go to another forum let me
know that too.

keith

--- TdS_Reports@... wrote:

> TdS Report #75: Photos - Runabout Cycles
>
> Photographs from the Tour de Sol:
>
>
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2005/photos_020.html
>
>
> Runabout Cycles
>
>
>
> Josh Kerson explains the customized RunAbout Cycle.
> The seat is missing in this photo, but that allows
> us to see the lead-acid
> batteries that are mounted under it and the motor
> controller mounted behind it.
> Notice that the pedals are on an adjustable arm that
> makes finding the perfect
> position for any individual rider easy.
> Other things to notice:
> wheel fenders, a pair of rearview mirrors, and the
> pair of side-mounted
> steering handles.
>
> Here is another RunAbout trike, equipped with saddle
> bags.
> The lithium ion battery pack and charger are in the
> white box under the seat.
> The motor and drive chain are visible in this photo,
> mount just forward of the rear wheel.
>
> - - - -
> The complete set of Tour de Sol Reports for 2005
> can be found at:
>
> http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2005
> The complete set of past Tour de Sol Reports can be
> found at:
>
>
http://www.FovealSystems.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
> - - - -
> The above is Copyright 2005 by Michael H. Bianchi.
> Permission to copy is granted provided the entire
> article is presented
> without modification and this notice remains
> attached.
> For other arrangements, contact me at
> +1-973-822-2085 .
> - - - -
> For more on the NESEA Tour de Sol, see the web page
> at
> http://www.TourdeSol.org
> - - - -
> Official NESEA Tour de Sol information is available
> from the sponsor,
> the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association
> (NESEA) at
> 413 774-6051 , and 50 Miles Street, Greenfield,
> MA 01301 , and
> nesea@... . All media enquiries should be
> addressed to ...
>
> Jack Groh
> Tour de Sol Communications Director
> P.O. Box 6044
> Warwick, RI 02887-6044
>
> 401 732-1551
> 401 732-0547 fax
> GrohPR@...
>
>




____________________________________________________
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http://auctions.yahoo.com/

James wrote:

>I am not sure if there would be any benefit in separating the fields, putting
them in parallel. I think that there is maximum torque from the series
connection?



Series wound will give you more torque, but will run at a lower speed than a
series parallel set up would with a given current. Go ahead and try it as is
and see if the motor has enough speed for your truck at 120 volts. You can
always modify it if you find it has more than enough torque but not enough top
end speed. If it’s good then it’s good and you have waited no time and effort.
Like you said torque is what your after so you are set up for that as is.



>I'm intending to put Kevlar wrapping around the edges of the commentator. What
epoxy is recommended to bed Kevlar in? Is super-strength Araldite OK? (I
suspect it isn't since I expect 120 degrees C or more on the faces of the
comm.). If you do decide to wrap it you will have to occur the cost of getting
it rebalanced.



I have yet to use any banding type materials on a commentator and so would have
little input here. But as you state you will be running at around 4500 RPM.
You should be way below mechanical on that motor. But, being that motor is from
a maker that I’m unfamiliar with I’d hate to be quoted here, but I feel your
motor should take 4500 without any mishaps.



> Jim, I went to the EIS web site you listed previously (eis-inc.com) and looked
for fusa-fab you mentioned - search of their site doesn't find it. I guess you'd
be happy to supply some, but the problem I have is not

being in the US. Are you able to take a VISA card?





As far as Fusa Fab is concerned it is one of my little secret item I found there
that they hide from people, lol. Yes I could send you a roll, and yes I take
visa, but I will get the number and post it for you and the others to use as
needed. You might also need to call a branch to get it. If you find out that
you just can’t get it easily through EIS then contact me off list and I’ll send
you down a roll maybe with some terminals and insulators, but this I feel would
be a worst-case scenario. It would work great on any solid copper jumper leads
to insulate them.



>The brush cross-connections are square wire, only 4mm x 4mm (16mm2). The
armature connection wires go to one holder, and then via the cross connect, so I
think that the current would not be evenly shared. I am thinking that there
could be benefit if they were bigger, but how much bigger? I have some 3mm x
15mm copper flat bar, 45mm cross connection. If I put the armature connection
wires onto the cross-connects, that would improve the current sharing. I intend
to put larger brass bolts into the brush holders for the holder connections -
perhaps silver-soldering brass studs into the housing and using nuts?



As you stated you motor terminal lead jumps to only one holder and then jumps to
the other. I too feel this design puts the one brush holder into the weak link
area, and I’ve never liked this set up. I would do it as you described or
install some nice cable. Cable can also be silver soldered to the brass stud,
but you don’t have to be as exact in measuring it. It is also able to handle
the current (see cable vs. Solid) and would be easier to make. Have you silver
soldered before? If not I will post a list of do’s and don’ts. One note on
sliver soldering, you must use a brazing flux to get it to stick onto brass.

As far as upgrading to a 3/8” (or 10 mm) brass stud, if you can do it
comfortably then do it. I hate when they put little terminals on motors. The
brush end will probably be easier than the field coil connection being you will
have to remove the coils to do it but I don’t know that for sure. If you could
send pic’s I’d be more than happy to aid you as you go. As far as my upgrade
post goes I felt some things are easier than others and some would only be done
if a motor had failed do to one of the many weak links they all seem to have in
one department or another. Your brush leads are a classic change if you can
design and should be an easy upgrade to do.



>I am assuming the motor (due to its age) does not have high temperature
insulation (I can see what seems to be fiberglass in places).



Fiberglass is good and is Class H insulation if it looked like a cloth then it
is not class H. Plastic bobbin’s (the new way to insulate) is also rated class
H, but can melt and in my opinion are not as good as a fiberglass wrapped coil.



> Is there likely to be benefit from increasing the diameter of the motor
connections? (it’s 5/16" now).



Brass is soft and I’ve found most people over torque the nuts causing the
terminal to strip. Being this is the connection point of your battery cables
and the entrance to your motor is it the weak link? Is the material twice as
big as the jumpers to your holders? They get to share to current as the terminal
takes the whole current. This may have to be done by someone who knows how.
This type of upgrade would be done for most when a motor was being rebuilt. If
something has to be replaced then upgrade it and don’t replace it with the same
undersized part is all I’m saying. Sometimes the adage if it aint broke don’t
fix it applies.

Hope this helps, Keep us posted

Jim Husted

Hi-Torque Electric



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Those are the ones I used with my BMS. In order to make life easier, I
used the version that has a separate power wire, so you need a total of 3
wires instead of 2. Being able to read N temperature sensors using just 1
pin of a micro controller is convenient. I was using at Atmel AVR Mega8.

At 09:41 PM 7/9/2005, David Murphy wrote:
>Dallas semiconductor (acquired by maxim) made an interesting
>temperature sensor. It has a single wire interface, powered by it's
>data line. Furthermore, each device has a unique address so that you
>can hang multiple devices off of the same line. There is also an
>alarm function that I believe allows you to quickly id which device (s) on
>the bus have exceeded a user define temperature limit. Here's
>a link to information on the device.
>
>http://www.maxim-ic.com/quick_view2.cfm/qv_pk/2815/ln/en

--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:Cougar@...
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com

Hi Peter and All,

--- Peter VanDerWal <evdl@...> wrote:

> >> > If the car can run on as little a 600 wh/mile
> at
> >> 60 mph (can any
> >> > currently available EV actually run that
> >> efficiently over the long
> >> > term in traffic and dealing with elevations?),
> >> you're looking at a
> >> > power requirement of 36kw.
> >>
> >> Umm, that's a tad high, I'd say 15-20 kwh is more
> >
> > You think!!
> >
> >
> >> accurate for typical
> >> EVs. Jerry will probably disagree (and insist
> it's
> >> much lower) but he
> >> tends to be wildly optimistic.
> >
> > Of course I disagree, what would you expect
> ;-))
> > But my disgreements are based on facts. My
> > E woody gets MOL 100wthrs/mile from the plug at
> 45mph
>
> 45mph average or top speed? Anyway, we are talking

At the moment, top speed is 45mph as I had to cut
back to 36vdc battery pack as the VW front end could
not handle the extra weight and why I never fixed it
completely up.
But at 48vdc it did 60 mph on a 3.5hp 36vdc 100amp
GE citi-car motor. I was probably getting 7hp out of
it at the time by overloading it. Voltage sag was
large as I was using old 12vdc Dynasty Gel batts and
6gge wire. 40vdc and 150 amps at the motor/6kw.
So that's another proof I can do what I say with
the Freedom EV which should have 1/3 less drag than
the E woody easily.

> about 60 mph. Power
> (and energy required) go up as the square of the
> speed. So even your
> e-woody would take roughly twice that at 60 mph,
> which works out to around
> 10kw/hour. I'd suspect it might even take a bit
> more than that. Hook up

Didn't prove out that way. See above. But the
45mph was from the plug and the 60 mph was from the
motor terminals close where the gen would be hooked to
thru the controller which is 95% eff?.

> an E-meter and check how much power it draws at
> 60mph on flat ground
> without wind and let us know.

Amp/volt meter 2 ways twice without wind on a flat
Fla road. 6kw or about 7hp on the overloaded motor.
Just what EV of America spreadsheet predicted.

>
> > So I expect that my new optimized composite
> > Freedom EV with a CD of about .24, low resistance
> > tires, PWM controller, 1,300lb, 2 more eff motors
> > series/parallel with a higher gear ratio to do
> about
> > 100wthr/mile at 60mph which isn't that hard as you
> are
> > going 33% more miles.
>
> Color me skeptical, I'll believe it when I see it.

No problem, in a few months it will be ready.

>
> > Also I'm not the only person getting this low
> > power level as John Bryan? gets the same in his VW
> > Ghia at a fair more weight, slightly worse aero
> though
> > slightly lower frontal area.
>
> Looking at your prototype and John's Ghia, I'll bet
> you $100 that HE has
> the lower total drag.

I'd hate to take your money as I've proved it with
the much higher drag E woody. Come down and test one
when you get back.

Not only does the Ghia look
> like it has a smaller
> frontal area,

I said it did.

but I also think it's has a lower Cd.

Not hardly!! You as many just don't understand
aerodynamics it seems. Go read some airplane drag
studies amoung other sources. For instance the middle,
rear, wheelwells are much more important than the
front!!!
While the Ghia is better than many cars, that's
not saying much.
If you look closely at the EV1, the Honda Insight
and the Selectria Sunrise, you will see much more of
the Freedom EV in it than the Ghia or any other car.
They all have Kammbacks, wheelwell treatments, low
parasitic drag and smooth bottoms.


> I'll grant you that your fiberglass body looks like
> it has a lower Cd than
> the E-woody, but I think your .24 figure is more
> than a little optimistic.

My success in very fast sailboats going to windward
says differently. Aerodynamics does not follow what
most people think is aero. Use yarn and smoke and you
can find a lot of interesting things.



>
> > For your bloated EV conversions, then yes,
> you
> > will need more as I've always said, about
> > 5-7kw/1,000lbs of EV depending on it's eff.
>
> I agree that lighter more aero EVs are defintely
> desireable (and doable).

And cheaper, more eff, cost effective.


>
> And you are definitely winning kudos for
> lightweight. I just don't buy
> your guestimates on Cd, but it looks like you are
> getting closer to
> proving it one way or the other.

Yes, we'll see soon. But as I've already done most
of this with the E woody, I'm not worried. I could be
30% off and still beat the pants off of everything
else out there including the EV1 in total drag!!
But unless I could really do something a lot
better, I just leave it to the drones that are happy
with a 1% improvement. I like to go for leaps, not
baby steps. Though that seems to bother many people.
But they have always said I can't do things I do. I'm
use to it now.


>
> >>
> >> My pickup (far from efficient) uses approx 15kw
> at
> >> 60 mph on flat ground.
> >> Figure a bit more in the hills (lots more going
> up,
> >> zero kw coming down,
> >
> > MOL even's out.
>
> Not quite, you loose more energy going up than you
> can regain going down,
> simple physics (mm, 2nd law of thermodynamics?)

I agree and what I meant.

>
> >
> >> possibly regen if your vehicle has it). A
> >> reasonably efficient, full size
> >> EV could easily average 15-20 kw/h at 60 mph.
> >
> > An overweight lead mine maybe!!
>
> Well I did say "full size" and "easily". Besides
> extrapolations on the
> data you've presented for your e-woody indicate that
> it's not that much
> better at 60mph.

Except at 1/3 or so the power needed in the
Freedom EV!!! ;-))


> The vast majority of people in the US will NOT build
> their own vehicle and
> even fewer would be willing to build/drive something
> like the E-woody.

That's why I'm going into production as they want
them but no one will build them for sale. Which is
fine for me as I don't like direct competition.
Beating each other to death over a nickle is for bean
counters. I go for the big bucks. ;-))


> >
> > Since you easily get 11-12kw from a gal of gas
> in
> > a DC gen and I get 100wthrs/mile, then what would
> be
> > optimistic?
>
> At 45 mph! We are talking about highway speeds here
> Jerry. What does it
> draw at 60 mph? At 75?

I have only taken the E woody to 60mph so you'll
just have to be satisfied with that for now. And at
6kw to do 60mph, then that is 100wthrs/mile. That's
also the first time I calculated it at 60mph as I
never go that fast anymore in thr E woody, just did it
a couple times as the range with 4 12v gel cells was
short. But I had figured so.

>
> >
> > Great idea, do you have $45k+?
>
> Actually yes, I have that much sitting in my
> checking account right now.
> Not going to spend it on a prius though.

Don't blame you as what an EV you could build for
1/2-1/3 of that!!

>
> > My goal is to bring an affordable EV most
> > everyone can afford, maintain with 70-100 mile
> range,
> > 80mph for $13k with unlimited hybrid range as an
> > option. I don't see any of you doing it. Why?
> Scared?
>
> Jerry, if you actually bring one to market at that
> price, I might just buy
> one.

You and many others. I'll only sell to EV'ers for
the first 20 or so as I need people who know what they
are doing for good feedback, improvements before
turning them loose to the public.


>
> > If you were really into EV's, you would give
> > solutions instead of just saying it can't be done,
> > putting it down. Why don't you be part of the
> solution
> > instead of being the problem?
>
> I just don't think being overly optimistic is a good
> way to solve this
> problem. I think being realistic is a better way to
> build a bussiness for
> the long term.

I believe I'm being realistic within my knowledge
base I'm very comfortable with my projections. I've
been mulling this over for 10 yrs so it's not like I
haven't though about it a lot.


> This time next year I'll have enough money saved up

Those bonuses are nice, arn't they!! I'd never be
able to survive as your bosses and I could never get
along. I think way outside the box! Hell, I can't even
see the box most of the time ;-))

> that I won't have to
> work for a while and can devote a couple years to
> doing nothing but
> working on my ideas. That's when I'll start

After an unpleasant experience with our gov I
decided to do that 30 yrs ago and been playing with
stuff ever since. It's a great life but hard for many
to do as no structure at all and that drives many
crazy. But I love it and has allowed me to do many
things others have only dreamed of.

> building my hybrid.
> If yours works out, I'll definitely be picking your
> brains for ideas.
> Especially on molds and so forth.

As always, be glad to help.

Better go out and see what the hurricane's blown
away. It did in my 10' high prized Elephant Ear plant
earlier!! But I can prop it back up and it will grow
back upright. Luckily we are only on the fringe of it.
The poor people in the panhandle will get the worst of
it. Ah, life in paradise!!
Thanks,
Jerry Dycus


>
> Cheers, and good luck.
>
>




____________________________________________________
Sell on Yahoo! Auctions – no fees. Bid on great items.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/

And you still have to compensate for altitude, air density, moisture,
fuel octane... There's a reason why Honda and others are going to fuel
injection on their motorcycle engines to meet their future emissions
standards...

On Jul 9, 2005, at 12:14 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:

> From: Benteaches@...
> Date: July 9, 2005 11:43:46 AM PDT
> To: ev@...
> Subject: Re: Pollution in small engines, Re: Rules of thumb for
> engine, Generat...
>
>
> In a message dated 7/6/2005 2:08:42 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> jerry5335@... writes:
>
> << > > Hence my suggestions to use a better carb,
>
>>> raise the compression ratio, use an electronic
>>>
>> igntion
>>
>
> It just isnt that simple.
> Raise the compresssion, HC falls a bit, CO remains unchanged and
> NOX shoots
> up.
> Advance the timing, HC goes up a bit, CO doesnt change, NOX shoots up
> Leaner mixture, HC goes up. CO falls, NOX goes up

Why do I feel like this is an ongoing lecture in 1st year engineering?
And just like school, some folks just won't get it, or will just continue to
disagree, so maybe we should drop the complaining about fractional
dimensions in units---or do we really want to begin talking about fractals
here?

BS^n is still BS.

-Myles Twete, Portland

It was 20 or more years ago. His test car was a Pinto. At that time after
a careful patent search, he believed that he was first.

He was a physicist and he knew what he was doing.

BoyntonStu


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...] On
Behalf Of Gnat
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 11:14 PM
To: ev@...
Subject: RE: INVENTION ON HOW TO LEAN A CARB ENGINE.

Your friend is a bit late. Thats how the mixture control on some
ultralight aircraft engines work.

Any aircooled aircraft engine monitors cylinder head temps as
well as using exhaust gas temps. Both gauges tell you things about
the mechanical condition of the engine as well as how its running.


Dave

> My friend thought of this idea about 20 years ago. He modified
> his car and
> it worked. He monitored cylinder head temp as the leaner mixture
> raised it.
>
> Here's the idea:
>
> A vented carb has 1 atmosphere above the gas in the float bowl. It is the
> suction caused by the engine vacuum and the 1 atm. Pressure that
> caused the
> gas to be drawn into the cylinder.
>
> All he did was to take a tube to the carb float bowl and connect it to
> engine vacuum.
>
> In between he placed a needle valve. With the valve closed,
> normal. As you
> open the valve the pressure differential between the carb float bowl and
> engine vacuum is reduced and the mixture becomes leaner.
>
> BoyntonStu

Getting a glider is the easy part and they can be had for free or
nearly free, or most people already have a vehicle on hand to be
converted.. It's the prices of the motor, controller, charger, and
battery pack that is the stumbling block....

Just as a for-instance, I have this dead Corsica in my back yard...

"Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"

Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <stotts.ryan@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 2:55 PM
Subject: Re: Schmidt glider.


> Getting a glider is the easy part and they can be had for free or
> nearly free, or most people already have a vehicle on hand to be
> converted.. It's the prices of the motor, controller, charger, and
> battery pack that is the stumbling block....
>

Try it with 30 BB600's. I'm using that amount on my E20 here right now,
and they work *GREAT*. 200+amp discharge rates (the max flooring the E20
up a hill with the mower going) and the voltage doesn't sag much. And
I'm getting 40ah out of 30ah batteries.

Make sure you put the batteries in a box mount of some sort. Otherwise
they will swell and that is bad. I use the E20's weight box, which is
just big enough to carry two rows of 15 batteries snugly with a 2*4
running vertical between them to support the shunt and keep some space
between the batteries. Works like a charm.

Speaking of which I wonder if I can just charge these batteries to
32-35ah and not bother with the last bit of charging. Will they slip out
of sync; would cut down on the gassing.

Chris

JCT wrote:
> Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 09:16:02 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Mark Hastings
>
> I put up some pictures of my Tennant Etek mounted up to my craftmans
> tractor. I only had to drill one hole and it's pretty much all good to
> go all lined up and everything with existing holes.
> Charging up the U1 battery did get me some pretty good crawling speed
> considering it is a single 12v U1 battery.
> http://geocities.com/evblazer/SearsCraftsmanTractorConversion/index.html
> I may commision charge 10 or 20 of my BB600's and try them out after I
> repaint the mower deck.
> Mark Hastings

At 11:56 AM 10/07/05 +0100, Evan wrote:
> > made by Ransomes in the UK.
>
>Hi James,
> Ransomes is a lawnmower / garden machinery company. I've never
>heard of a Ransomes motor before, so perhaps the one you have is
>rebadged. What did it come out of, I maybe missed that?

Hi Evan, Jim and all

It came from a forklift - was the traction motor. The manufacturers'
details on the nameplate state "Ransomes DC Motor", "Ransomes Sims &
Jeffries Ltd, Ipswich".

The forklift had already had its' contactor controller and most of the
hydraulics (although I did get the hydraulic pump motor) and anything else
easily removable removed before I got to it, so I'm not even sure who its'
manufacturer was.

I feel the forklift must have been made between 1950 and 1970, either in
the UK and fully imported to Australia, or made in Australia from a
collection of bits brought here from the UK.

I found it in a swampy area of a junk dealers' yard, it had been too hard
to get to so hadn't yet been sent to scrap - the ground had dried out and I
got to it just in time!

Jim, thanks for the response, I'll have to fully think through and have a
bit of a look at the motor some before I reply.

Regards

James

Neon John wrote:

> I have very serious concerns about the amount of overhang on that
> shaft. I would expect vibration and short bearing life. If at all
> possible, I'd put a bearing on the far end of the shaft, one way or
> another. I can't find a spec for the ETEK shaft side loading force
> but I'd bet a burger your setup will exceed it.

It's pretty long, however the 15.5hp gas engines don't seem to suffer
any bearing wear because of it. I recently tore down and rebuilt my (now
dad's) motor because he drove it without oil. Broke the connecting rod,
no damage to the bottom end bearings (10 year old motor, used heavily).

I think having the other end attached to the belt helps. Perhaps the
belt assembly cushions any natural vibration.

> I also suspect that you'll need to regear the ETEK from that of the
> gas engine. The ETEK is happiest at high voltage, low current; that
> is, high RPM and low torque. Especially if you keep that shaft setup,
> I'd want to spin the motor as fast as I could to minimize the dynamic
> side loading on the shaft.

Craftsman lawn tractors basically have two engine speeds:

1) Full blast for everything
2) Idle to hear what your wife is shouting

Anything less is pretty much pointless since you can always control
speed with the 6 speed transmission or in this case that hydro frob. The
mower deck doesn't work with anything less than full power, so you
typically go to full, select gear 3 and mow away all day long. Thus my
thought on speed control being just an on/off contactor; what more do
you really need.

On the E20, I pretty much use gear L, speed 4 (full power) for 95
percent of my work. Put in cruise, mow mow mow. Sometimes I will go to D
to drive around, but the low speeds with the resistors are too variable
for normal running around (they come in very handy for tilling, but
that's another issue)

Chris

Question for the flooded people: I have been working with these BB600
cells and they seem to work very well in the Elec-trak. Even under a
200amp discharge rate they maintain voltage and can deliver well over 35
ah (single string, 30 batteries, 30ah rated)

In looking at the density of them, it looks like I can fit 60 of these
in the space taken by four T105 batteries along with a 2*4 spacer
between them. Or each T105 can be replaced by 15 BB600's with some
serious headroom given back. Thus the power density of the BB600's is
about 105ah per unit of T105 space. (I've seen 40ah, but I'll stick with
35.)

Given that a single string of T105's has a 225ah capacity at C20, that's
not too hot. However I know that we don't draw anywhere near C20; it
looks like on a typical conversion of 20 T105's we're pulling around
400amps from the batteries peak, and I don't know what the average is.
And there's that 20% reserve thing. So how many amp hours can you pull
out of a string of T105s under normal driving conditions?

Chris

Hi Chris, Mark and All,
First I would either put a resistor or
lighter gge wire on it for softening the starting
current which can be very hard if you start full batt
voltage. You can either leave it inline or short it
out for more power. It will help also if you hit
something making the blade stop.
PM motors are very bad at that. It doesn't
have to be much, just to limit the amps to 300 or so.
Probably just using 6gge wiring will do the job
nicely.

--- Christopher Zach <czach@...> wrote:

> Try it with 30 BB600's. I'm using that amount on my
> E20 here right now,
> and they work *GREAT*. 200+amp discharge rates (the
> max flooring the E20
> up a hill with the mower going) and the voltage
> doesn't sag much. And
> I'm getting 40ah out of 30ah batteries.

I'd bet 400 amps+ starting peak if you don't use
something to lessen it.


>
> Make sure you put the batteries in a box mount of
> some sort. Otherwise
> they will swell and that is bad. I use the E20's
> weight box, which is
> just big enough to carry two rows of 15 batteries
> snugly with a 2*4
> running vertical between them to support the shunt
> and keep some space
> between the batteries. Works like a charm.
>
> Speaking of which I wonder if I can just charge
> these batteries to
> 32-35ah and not bother with the last bit of
> charging. Will they slip out
> of sync; would cut down on the gassing.

That's what I do and have done for yrs to lessen
the watering needs on my SAFT ni-cads without problems
as they are over 30yrs old and still put out over
rated power.
Though for the first few, say 5 charges you
should do full equalizing charges to get them all
working together on new cells or less on ones that
haven't been used in a while.
Those who have went to E lawn mowing quickly
start to love it for the quite and reliability. Being
able to cut your lawn at 7AM when it's cool really
helps in the summer.
Thanks for the info guy's as I want to convert
one soon to show lawn businesses just what EV mowing
can be.
Jerry Dycus


>
> Chris
>
> JCT wrote:
> > Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 09:16:02 -0700 (PDT)
> > From: Mark Hastings
> >
> > I put up some pictures of my Tennant Etek mounted
> up to my craftmans
> > tractor. I only had to drill one hole and it's
> pretty much all good to
> > go all lined up and everything with existing
> holes.
> > Charging up the U1 battery did get me some pretty
> good crawling speed
> > considering it is a single 12v U1 battery.
> >
>
http://geocities.com/evblazer/SearsCraftsmanTractorConversion/index.html
> > I may commision charge 10 or 20 of my BB600's and
> try them out after I
> > repaint the mower deck.
> > Mark Hastings
>
>




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The New Beetle won first place today at the local Volksfest 2005. The car
was a real car pleaser and everyone applauded when the trophy was presented.


(it helps that there were only two entries in the class!)

Don




Victoria, BC, Canada

See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/

You know those little 1/4 hp to 5 hp air cooled AC motors like these?

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=92104

Can these be powered up(110v) and ran with no load without flying
apart? Or must they be ran with a load on them?

Hi Stu and All,

--- Stu or Jan <stu@...> wrote:

> Let me first state that Jerry has really convinced
> me that a 2F1R is the way
> to go.
>

It has it's good and bad points.

>
>
> The 2F1R Trihawk design is our starting point.
>
>
>
> Light weight, great handling, aero, efficient.

It's NOT aero!!! Thus at higher speeds, only
so-so eff. Low frontal area helps but you need an aero
hard top, raked windshield amoung other things if you
want low aero drag.

>
> 72/28 distribution.
>
> What more could you ask for?

Better aero.
>
> How about this?
>
> Electric front end, engine in rear.

I'd put both in the rear to save weight, cost,
complication.
With batts up front for balance, handling.
>
>
>
> A 15-20 Kw setup in front, and a 10 hp rear ICE with
> freewheel.

If not series gen then I'd use a variable pully
transmission on the ICE and maybe the e motor too. You
could use the VP trans for speed control also instead
of a controller. Riley has this on 2 of his designs.
If you used a shunt, PM motor on it you could
recharge the batt while driving.

>
>
>
> A commuter car for 25 miles or even lighter if going
> to work and recharging
> there.

As a lightweight vehicle like this takes so little
batt to go longer distance, get at least 50 mile batt
range in it.

>
> Run out of juice? Start up your rear engine.
> Wanna drag? Use both.
>

You'll need a lot more power than that to beat
anything that isn't dead slow!! Luckily it's both easy
and cheap to get a lot more EV power.

>
>
> The Trihawk is about 1,300 pounds. I believe that a
> car designed for local
> commuting with occasional max speeds of 65 could be
> made lighter.

Depends on it's design, materials. In metal
harder, in Wood/epoxy or composites designed right,
much lighter.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus

>
>
>
>
>
> BoyntonStu
>
>




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Ryan Stotts wrote:

>You know those little 1/4 hp to 5 hp air cooled AC motors like these?
>
>http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=92104
>
>Can these be powered up(110v) and ran with no load without flying
>apart? Or must they be ran with a load on them?
>
>
>
At no load they will approach 1800 rpm. The frequency determines the rpm
in these motors, unlike the series motor where RPM has a complicated
relationship to current. In a table saw, for example, there is almost no
load when just spinning a blade so I hope they wouldn't explode!

Cory Cross

Hi David and All,

--- djsharpe <djsharpe@...> wrote:

> Is it possible to suck LPG or CNG etc into the
> intake of an idling CI
> engine so as to then have a combined fuel engine? If
> you think there is
> a likelihood of success I would give it a go with
> one of my CI vehicles
> as an experiment. I know that a straight SI LPG
> engine has much higher
> CR than an engine that can run on petrol or LPG.
> David Sharpe
>

Works well, just put the LPG, butane or NG carb on
the intake and throttle that for speed control and
idle the diesel for ignition so you are running 90% or
so gas.
This works with producer gas, ect too. Wastewatts
is a good list for this.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus



>




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Jerry,

One way to power a single rear wheel is to use 2 freewheels, one on each
side.

A real light commuter could do with a single sprocket chain drive. The ICE
could use 2 speeds with a jackshaft and a centrifugal clutch. A VP is
quieter but I have no idea of its efficiency, what specific kind are you
thinking of?

The ICE and the motor could be in line fore and aft of the rear wheel.
Engine aft for the exhaust.

The chain sprocket could double as the disk for a caliper brake. Although
with a 75/25 ratio, a rear brake would not be needed especially with regen
braking.

I only used the Trihawk as a successful 2F1R design starting point, not a
chop conversion. 12" off the road is very dicey. What are your thoughts on
seat height?

What front end would you choose for steering/suspension/wheel/brake ?

Would you go tubular or rectangular for the frame/roll cage?

The more I study, the better your ideas seem.

I think of a heavy front 2F1R trike (75/25) like an arrow, with the rear
wheel as the feathers.

Thanks again,

Boyntonstu

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...] On
Behalf Of jerry dycus
Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 8:43 PM
To: ev@...
Subject: Re: A Trihawk Hybrid idea.


Hi Stu and All,

--- Stu or Jan <stu@...> wrote:

> Let me first state that Jerry has really convinced
> me that a 2F1R is the way
> to go.
>

It has it's good and bad points.

>
>
> The 2F1R Trihawk design is our starting point.
>
>
>
> Light weight, great handling, aero, efficient.

It's NOT aero!!! Thus at higher speeds, only
so-so eff. Low frontal area helps but you need an aero
hard top, raked windshield amoung other things if you
want low aero drag.

>
> 72/28 distribution.
>
> What more could you ask for?

Better aero.
>
> How about this?
>
> Electric front end, engine in rear.

I'd put both in the rear to save weight, cost,
complication.
With batts up front for balance, handling.
>
>
>
> A 15-20 Kw setup in front, and a 10 hp rear ICE with
> freewheel.

If not series gen then I'd use a variable pully
transmission on the ICE and maybe the e motor too. You
could use the VP trans for speed control also instead
of a controller. Riley has this on 2 of his designs.
If you used a shunt, PM motor on it you could
recharge the batt while driving.

>
>
>
> A commuter car for 25 miles or even lighter if going
> to work and recharging
> there.

As a lightweight vehicle like this takes so little
batt to go longer distance, get at least 50 mile batt
range in it.

>
> Run out of juice? Start up your rear engine.
> Wanna drag? Use both.
>

You'll need a lot more power than that to beat
anything that isn't dead slow!! Luckily it's both easy
and cheap to get a lot more EV power.

>
>
> The Trihawk is about 1,300 pounds. I believe that a
> car designed for local
> commuting with occasional max speeds of 65 could be
> made lighter.

Depends on it's design, materials. In metal
harder, in Wood/epoxy or composites designed right,
much lighter.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus

>
>
>
>
>
> BoyntonStu
>
>




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Hi John and All,

--- Neon John <jgd@...> wrote:

> <evdl@...> wrote:
>
>
> >Looking at your prototype and John's Ghia, I'll bet
> you $100 that HE has
> >the lower total drag. Not only does the Ghia look
> like it has a smaller
> >frontal area, but I also think it's has a lower Cd.
> >I'll grant you that your fiberglass body looks like
> it has a lower Cd than
> >the E-woody, but I think your .24 figure is more
> than a little optimistic.
> >
> >> For your bloated EV conversions, then yes,
> you
> >> will need more as I've always said, about
> >> 5-7kw/1,000lbs of EV depending on it's eff.
> >
> >I agree that lighter more aero EVs are defintely
> desireable (and doable).
> >
> >And you are definitely winning kudos for
> lightweight. I just don't buy
> >your guestimates on Cd, but it looks like you are
> getting closer to
> >proving it one way or the other.


>
> I had that same concern but didn't want to sound
> like I was piling on
> :-)

You, John, piling it on, never!! ;-))
On your inverter generator post while it's great
for high voltage EV's of 240vdc and up, it's rather
costly for lower voltages compared to a seperate
better motor like the Robin/Subaru with it's ign
advance, ect emissions wise and with a shunt, PM gen
of the correct size, put out much more power/$.
Of couse not too bad if you own a PFC 20-50
charger already.

>
> Jerry, why don't you spend some time with a scale
> model in a homemade
> wind tunnel before you go to molds? I have some

Too late as the tooling is already at the builder
;-))


> experience in ad-hoc
> wind tunnel testing if you need some help. There
> are some good
> articles in the SciAm Amateur Scientist CD regarding
> building and
> operating small wind tunnels on a very small budget.

I'd be interested in that but over the last 25
yrs I have designed many aero/hydrodynamic dependent
vehicles and developed quite a good sense just looking
at something to figure out it's drag compared to other
like vehicles.
I can see just where and how big the lift,
vortex's are, will be in my mind. So far it's been
very accurate and proved in real life. Not to mentiom
much cheaper, easier ;-))
Aero is only 2 things, how well the airflow stays
attached converging which equals lift/power and how
much air the vehicle will drag along, diverging
vortex's, with it which equals drag.
Also I like full size testing as more accurate and
I don't have the math skills to do scaling. It's many
times just as easy, cheap to build full size than
build models and then you still need to build full
size to verify the scale testing.
How I do it is both smoke and yarn at real
speeds. EV's are nice as drag equals volts x amps
divided by eff!!

> Or maybe there
> is someone on the list who could get you into a real
> wind tunnel. Now
> is the time to do it before you spend $$$ on
> tooling.

Like I said, too late.
You may have a inflated opinion of just what
composite tooling costs, it's just not that much with
most of the cost in the male mold the production
tooling is made from trather cheaply. I'm doing all
the tooling for the Freedom EV for under $6k as I
supplied almost all the male body mold labor and
building the chassis mold completely!!!
Now you know why I'm doing this in composites
besides lower weight!!
And you would be amazed at just how much profit
there is in them at $13k each!! That is of course if
you design them correctly for ease of building,
quality but low cost materials which is where Corbin
really blew it amoung other reasons.
>
>
> >I just don't think being overly optimistic is a
> good way to solve this
> >problem. I think being realistic is a better way
> to build a bussiness for
> >the long term.
> >This time next year I'll have enough money saved up
> that I won't have to
> >work for a while and can devote a couple years to
> doing nothing but
> >working on my ideas. That's when I'll start
> building my hybrid.
> >If yours works out, I'll definitely be picking your
> brains for ideas.
> >Especially on molds and so forth.
>
> I strongly second that notion. IMHO, THE major
> problem EVs have with
> the general public is that they've always promised
> far more than they

I haven't promised anything. I projected based on
experience. Once I have one done and tested I'll
report the results and sell from that.. Just like I
reported for the E woody.
Like I said before, these are not for sale yet
until I have one built, won't be, unlike other EV
companies.
I only talk about it here to learn the few things I
need too and teach others just how easy it is to start
their own EV production businesses.
I have no plans to be in the businees long, but
instead show the way and get multiple other EV
factories going so they can grow. Then just consult,
design more.
I have a whole range of EV's, battery dominated
hybrids ranging from aerocabin MC EV's, Van/pickup/SUV
EV's made from the same chassis, frontend to a
Dymaxion style ultra low aero drag RV hybrid just
waiting for a chance to be built.
As soon as the Freedom EV business is up and
running smoothly and well increased in value, I'll
sell it to those more suited for long term production
as I'm a designer, start up person, not long term
production which is rather boring though just what
investors love and willing to pay dearly for, a going
concern.
While the EV business as I plan on doing will be
very profitable, it pales compared to some other
things I'm into like my non dam hydro generators and
making gas, diesel, NG from waste biomass.
Both are fairly mature tech just waiting to be
advanced, put into production, use.


> can deliver. Why did the GoBig guy have to claim
> the scooter I bought
> would do over 45mph? It can't turn the wheel fast
> enough for that
> speed sitting on a crate with the wheel
> freewheeling! An accurate
> claim of 35 to 38 would have still made it the
> fastest production unit
> available....
>
> For a unique change, why not UNDERstate your car's
> capability so that
> reviewers can brag about how much it exceeds specs?

My projections are both my goals and what I believe
it will do based on facts I know, my experience. To
say otherwise wouldn't be truthful for me.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus




>
> John
>
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.johngsbbq.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
>
>




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