EV Digest 4499

Topics covered in this issue include:

1) Re: 120v 6.7" ADC?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
2) Running higher voltage. Confusion.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
3) 25 Saft 220 ah nicad cells on ebay
by mshipway@...
4) test please ignore
by "ProEV" <Promo@...>
5) Re: Running higher voltage. Confusion.
by jerry dycus <jerry5335@...>
6) Re: 120v 6.7" ADC?
by Dave Cover <davecover@...>
7) Re: 120v 6.7" ADC?
by Otmar <otlists@...>
8) Re: Hybrid Engine-LPG+Diesel
by "Peter VanDerWal" <evdl@...>
9) Re: Plastic welder
by jdham137@...
10) Re: 120v 6.7" ADC?
by jdham137@...
11) RE: Plastic welder
by "Richard Rau" <pedalcraft@...>
12) Re: Hybrid Engine-LPG+Diesel
by D B <airlaw@...>
13) Need Charging Advice - K&W 20
by Joel Silverman <jm_silverman@...>
14) Re: Plastic welder
by Ryan Stotts <stotts.ryan@...>
15) RE: State of Charge calculations - Eureka!!!
by "Roger Stockton" <rstockton@...>
16) RE: Plastic welder
by "Roger Stockton" <rstockton@...>
17) Re: Need Charging Advice - K&W 20
by "Roy LeMeur" <roylemeur@...>
18) Re: Check this out!
by Eric Poulsen <evlist@...>
19) Re: Check this out!
by jerry dycus <jerry5335@...>
20) Re: Electric kit cars
by Steven Lough <stevenslough@...>
21) Re: Stupid questions
by "hi_torque_electric" <hi_torque_electric@...>
22) Re: Need Charging Advice - K&W 20
by "Gabriel Alarcon" <cienaga@...>
23) Air conditioner etc
by Jeff Shanab <jshanab@...>
24) Motor cycle for electric
by Jeff Shanab <jshanab@...>
25) Battery charging temps
by Christopher Zach <czach@...>
26) Re: Air conditioner etc
by Christopher Zach <czach@...>
27) Re: EV eff Re: Engine Generator Question
by jerry dycus <jerry5335@...>

Too bad about the rust John. We have myraid old unrusted & inexpensive cars
in California. The reason: Supply & demand. & volume. Since the cars
don't rust there are a lot of older cars running in California. Rabbits
galore. I bought a running Aspire for 650 dollars. Dropped the whole front
end and put in my whole front end from the wrecked Aspire. (not that hard &
I think easier than dropping for the motor or tranny) I've already collected
275 bucks from selling the used parts. I'm sure I could get a body for you
for less than 300 dollars. Probably with nice paint and interior.
LR.........
----- Original Message -----
From: <jdham137@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 10:04 PM
Subject: 120v 6.7" ADC?


> Listers,
> After not being able to pass the state inspection because of
> extensive rust, I finally broke down and pulled the EV components from my
> rabbit. It's a 6.7 inch with a curtis and 72 volts of batteries. The plate
> (actually sticker) on the side of the motor says it's a 120 volt motor.
> Can I actually put a 120 volt system in this? The largest rating I've seen
> for a 6.7 incher is 96 volts. It also has the extra shaft coming out the
> other end if that gives any more info about its capabilities. Either Bob
> Rice or Otmar said that they thought the motor would be able to handle
> 96v. Maybe it could do more? And I'll definitely cool it with a fan.
>
> John Shelton
>
> __________________________________________________________________
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"as with the higher rpm you can run in a higher gear lowering the amps"

This statement by both Otmar and Jerry has me confused. I have always
noticed with all my EV's that running as fast as possible in any gear will
lower current. How does shifting to a higher gear reduce current? My EV's
always draw more current in higher gears especially when accelerating or
hill climbing. What am I missing? (Maybe true high voltage machines. I've
never run more than 120v on any of my EV's)
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
bassoon@...
415-821-3519

FYI, I found these on Ebay, they look like fun, only 30 volts worth though:
"measurements are appx. 5 1/2 in.x 6 1/2 in. x 12 1/2 in. tall, including the
short posts - these batteries are showing a charge that they had when I got them
and by the paperwork, they are appx. 1.25 volt and 220 amp. each"

Starting bid is $299, so far no bids.
Auction Ends Jul-16-05 18:00:00 PDT

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=56998&item=7521215441&rd=\
1

test

Hi Lawrence and All,

--- Lawrence Rhodes <bassoon@...> wrote:

> "as with the higher rpm you can run in a higher gear
> lowering the amps"

I should have been more clear. I meant a higher
numericly higher ratio, thus higher gearing.
Not, say 2nd instead of 3rd but 3rd instead of
second as we usually count our transmission gears
backward with being the least gearing and last in the
shifting pattern.
Basicly with a higher rpm, the higher ratio means
you need less torque from the motor thus less amps as
amps is basicly torque.
Higher voltage just allows the motor to make the
same torque/amps at a higher rpm that when multiplied
by the gear ratio, gives more torque/amp at the wheel.
You don't gain anything in energy as you put in about
the same power, just a higher voltage at less amps but
motor runs much cooler at lower amps with higher
reserve power if needed.
I hope this doesn't just confuse more.

>
> This statement by both Otmar and Jerry has me
> confused. I have always
> noticed with all my EV's that running as fast as
> possible in any gear will
> lower current. How does shifting to a higher gear
> reduce current? My EV's

No, increases it if you mean to a gear with less
ratio..


> always draw more current in higher gears especially
> when accelerating or
> hill climbing. What am I missing? (Maybe true high

Nothing it seems you have it correct.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus


> voltage machines. I've
> never run more than 120v on any of my EV's)
> Lawrence Rhodes
> Bassoon/Contrabassoon
> Reedmaker
> Book 4/5 doubler
> Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
> bassoon@...
> 415-821-3519
>
>




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--- Otmar <otlists@...> wrote:
>
> If you're worried about it, get yourself a temperature gauge on the
> dash running off a thermocouple buried 1/2" deep in one of the
> positive brushes. Watch that it never exceeds 230 deg C. 180 to 200
> degrees is normal running and 250 is a absolute max temp for the ADC
> motors.

I like the idea! Could you attach the thermocouple to the trailing egde of the
brush holder so you
never have to worry about brush wear. Would it be close enough so you still had
a pretty good idea
of the temp in the brushes? If the thermocouple is on the backside, is it
vulnerable to damage
from arcing?

Dave Cover

>--- Otmar <otlists@...> wrote:
>>
>> If you're worried about it, get yourself a temperature gauge on the
>> dash running off a thermocouple buried 1/2" deep in one of the
>> positive brushes. Watch that it never exceeds 230 deg C. 180 to 200
>> degrees is normal running and 250 is a absolute max temp for the ADC
>> motors.
>
>I like the idea! Could you attach the thermocouple to the trailing
>egde of the brush holder so you
>never have to worry about brush wear. Would it be close enough so
>you still had a pretty good idea
>of the temp in the brushes? If the thermocouple is on the backside,
>is it vulnerable to damage
>from arcing?
>
>Dave Cover

Hi Dave,
I don't think you will get a good brush temperature reading on the
brush holder. This because it would now be subject to air flow and
temperature of the outside air.

I was taught by the engineers at ADC to drill a half inch deep hole
in the positive brush and put the thermocouple in there. I always put
the thermocouple in a little heatshink first to isolate it and to
make it stick better. Amazingly the heatshrink held up.

I think that by only going in 1/2 inch, you don't need to worry about
it protruding through when the brush wears.

And for Lawrence and others we may have confused. Sorry about that.
Yes, at higher voltage you can shift to keep the motor spinning
faster which means more RPM, fewer amps and a cooler motor.

hth,
--
-Otmar-

http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914

> Is it possible to suck LPG or CNG etc into the intake of an idling CI
> engine so as to then have a combined fuel engine? If you think there is
> a likelihood of success I would give it a go with one of my CI vehicles
> as an experiment. I know that a straight SI LPG engine has much higher
> CR than an engine that can run on petrol or LPG.
> David Sharpe
>

Injecting propane into a Desiel engine is actually a fairly common
practice, there are several dozen kits available for doing this.
It improves your desiel mileage and torque... and can also destroy your
engine if not done correctly.

Unless you need the extra torque, it's probably not worth it however. The
savings in desiel is pretty much offset by the cost the of propane.

Dave and all,
I read an article in Home Machinist magazine year or so ago about welding
plastics. I bought the stuff they suggested but haven't yet had time to mess
with it. Give me a couple of days to find the magazine and I'll digitize the
article and send it to you. Also, does anyone know what cfm rating for a
compressor would be sufficient for this welder? I have a 4 cfm light duty
compressor but I'm not sure it will be enough. Ideas?

John

Subject:

Re: Plastic welder
Date:

7/11/2005 11:38:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From:

Ralph Merwin <rmerwin@...>
To:

ev@...


Dave Cover writes:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I'm planning on making my battery boxes with steel (bed)frames and then
> lining them with plastic boxes and lids. HDPE seems like the right
> material. Does anyone have a recommendation for a plastic welder? I've
> seen a variety but don't know what options I need and what don't matter.
> eBay has all kinds and prices.

I was once thinking of making my battery boxes out of HDPE, and bought one
of the Harbor Freight units. It seems to work OK for small projects, but
I didn't practice enough to feel comfortable making some large like a box.



> Do the rods have to be of the same material as the box?

Yes. I had to buy them from a local plastic supplier (Multicraft Plastics).
Tap Plastics didn't carry welding rods.



> Can I glue/bond/epoxy the boxes instead of welding?

Not using HDPE. There is supposedly a glue that will work with HDPE,
but it's expensive and I'm told it doesn't really work that well.


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Otmar, Jerry, and Bob,
That's a lot of good news. When I get a donor and the money for new part
I'm going to buy a 1000 amp zilla to put some serious amperage whatever voltage
I choose. Can't wait for that. Since I'm getting a new donor I'm going to do it
right. I want to try to find a cabriolet in good condition to convert. I saw one
a couple weeks ago on ebay that was the perfect candidate. A great body and top
with a blown engine but it was in California. My favorite car I ever had was an
early eighties RX-7 but if I converted one of those I would need a new tranny
plate. If I go with a rabbit, can I just drop the motor into whatever new donor
I have? When I pulled it out of the old car I just unbolted it and pulled it.
Will there be any other adjustments needed? Oh hey, I just thought of this, a
rabbit pick-up would be nice to have ;-) A two-seater with utility. I just need
to wait a couple months to save up the money for the components and get rid of
my motorcycle and truck before I ge!
t another car in the driveway. The wife will kill me if I bring another car
home anytime soon ;-) Thanks guys.

John Shelton

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John, The plastic welder needs very little CFM from your air compressor. It
mainly just needs the 'pressure'. Even small compressors should work fine
once the pressure is adjusted for your process.
Practice on some test pieces. Roughen the mating surfaces/edges.
Good luck, (sometimes I'd rather say "Good skill"!)
Richard

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...] On
Behalf Of jdham137@...
Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2005 12:10 PM
To: ev@...
Subject: Re: Plastic welder

Dave and all,
I read an article in Home Machinist magazine year or so ago about
welding plastics. I bought the stuff they suggested but haven't yet had time
to mess with it. Give me a couple of days to find the magazine and I'll
digitize the article and send it to you. Also, does anyone know what cfm
rating for a compressor would be sufficient for this welder? I have a 4 cfm
light duty compressor but I'm not sure it will be enough. Ideas?

John

Benteaches@... wrote:

>In a message dated 7/10/2005 10:16:50 AM Pacific Standard Time,
>djsharpe@... writes:
>
><< Is it possible to suck LPG or CNG etc into the intake of an idling CI
> engine so as to then have a combined fuel engine? >>
>
>Idling? Probably not a good idea without major injection pump redesign.
>There are lots of propane/diesel kits on the market to boost power
>(definitely) and mileage (maybe...)
>CNG/diesel injection is common; 90% cng for fuel, 10% diesel for ignition.
>Very clean running.
>
>Ben
>
>
>
>
>
>
Aloha: I'm the electric aircraft lurker on this list, but have also
looked into making a Jet-A or diesel powered aircraft or electric-diesel
hybrid aircraft, using the powerhead from a Yanmar 36 HP, 3-cylinder
single overhead cam engine. Many companies, primarily Euro, are putting
out piston engines that run on Jet-A on the market simply because many
airports no longer have Avgas. Many require turbos for achieving
adequate take-off power, and are much heavier than the engines they are
designed to replace. This approach makes a great deal of sense here in
the Pacific, as very few airports south of Hawaii have Avgas at any price.

Others have "fumigated" their diesel engines lto make the dual fuel,
particuarly engines which pump natural gas inside pipelines. NO2 can
also "fumigate" an engine for more power, and still rely upon
diesel-injection for ignition and timing. Some of the Nitrous Oxide
books talk about injecting into diesels, but not too much is covered. I
do know that they inject NO2 as a liquid and let its evaporation cool
the incoming charge. I see no reason why the same would not be true for
Propane, LPG or CNG. Aloha David

Excuse the basic questions but I could use some help
in figuring out the charging on my Volts Rabbit. It
has a 96V (6Vx16) US 125 Battery pack and a K&W 20
charger. The car has an analog SOC gauge and that is
it. Since this is a "dumb" charger, I really need
help in determining how to best charge my pack.

What steps should I take to make sure I am getting the
most from my batteries.
1)How do I determine how much was pulled from the pack
after driving (check the voltage)??

2) What are the steps in charging? I know of bulk and
finish but not sure what it all means.

3) How do I figure out how to set up the charger. I
see there is a Current setting and a Voltage setting.
How do they relate to each other?

I have a timer set up at home to turn the charger off.

I sure could use some help. I know that these are the
most basic of EV questions but I really want to
understand the process involved in properly charging
flooded batteries.

Thanks,

Joel


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John wrote:

> Also, does anyone know what cfm rating for a compressor would be sufficient
>for this welder? I have a 4 cfm light duty compressor but I'm not sure it will
be >enough. Ideas?

The manual for the HF soldering iron looking one states 15 PSI max and
to set the airflow to 3.5 to 4 psi. No mentions of CFM requirements.

http://www.harborfreight.com/manuals/41000-41999/41592.pdf

MT [mailto:soltex@...] wrote:

> (BS^n)A is still a little different (BS)A

Absolutely. The point some people seem to be missing is that you cannot
arbitrarily assign the units where you happen to feel is convenient or
where happens to make sense to you.

> It is my pinion that to avoid confusion the equation should
> be written:
>
> Cp = (10^1.25)A x 20 hr = 355.6 Ahr
>
> so that the Peukert exponent is attached where it needs to be.

Unfortunately your opinion is wrong, and here is why:

The value '10' in the above equation is 10A, and was obtained by taking
the battery's capacity at the 20-hour rate (C/20) of 200Ah and dividing
by the 20 hour dishcarge time to determine the average discharge
current: Ah / h = A, 200Ah/20h = 10A.

When you substitute this value into Peukert's equation, both the
magnitude and dimension (units) are substituted in the same place.
Think of it this way: if we represent the current value by the variable
'i', then:

Cp = i^n * T

n=1.25, T=20hr, so: Cp = i^1.25 * 20hr

Now, if we perform a units analysis on this equation, we run the
equation just with units, and substitute the units associated with the
variable 'i' in its place:

Cp = amps^1.25 * hr

Units both sides of the equation must be the same for it to be valid, so
Cp has units of amps^1.25 * hr.

If we want to solve the equation for a given value of i=10amps, we
substitute 10 amps for 'i':

Cp = (10amps)^1.25 * 20hr = 355.6 amps^1.25 * hr.

We cannot substitute the magnitude in place of 'i' and arbitrarily plunk
the dimension somewhere else.

Finally, note that not producing a result with units of Ahr does not
make this equation invalid or useless. It just means that one must
recognise that the result is not an Ah quantity and cannot be added or
subtracted from Ah quantities. A correct way to use this Peukert
capacity is as described by Paul 'Neon' Gooch.

Cheers,

Roger.

Ryan Stotts [mailto:stotts.ryan@...] wrote:

> > Also, does anyone know what cfm rating for a compressor would be
> > sufficient >for this welder? I have a 4 cfm light duty
> > compressor but I'm not sure it will be >enough. Ideas?
>
> The manual for the HF soldering iron looking one states 15
> PSI max and to set the airflow to 3.5 to 4 psi. No mentions
> of CFM requirements.
>
> http://www.harborfreight.com/manuals/41000-41999/41592.pdf

The 15PSI max is the maximum pressure that the welder's regulator
adjusts to, it is not the maximum pressure that you can apply to the
input. The compressor I used regulated to 125PSI, and this fed straight
into the 0-15PSI regulator of the welder.

I would take the 3.5-4PSI mention as a recommendation to start with and
adjust from there. If 3.5-4PSI were really "the" operating point, I
suspect they would build the welder with a fixed 3.5-4PSI regulator
instead of a 0-15PSI adjustable one. As I recall, I found something
like 8PSI more appropriate for my material.

The volume (CFM) requirement is probably mostly a matter of ensuring you
have enough airflow to keep the heating element from overheating and
burning out. I'm pretty sure the compressor I used was 6-8CFM and it
was fine. I don't know if 4CFM would be enough, and I don't recall
where I got the idea that 6CFM or more was desirable.

Cheers,

Roger.

Hi Joel and welcome to the EV list. I can provide a couple of links to more
info and I am sure the charging gurus will speak up and answer your specific
questions.

The maker of your charger is even on this list.

Here are a couple of good links concerning caring for your lead-acid
batteries-

http://www.uuhome.de/william.darden//carfaq.htm
http://geocities.com/brucedp/evbatt.html

HTH!

Roy


Joel Silverman wrote:
>Excuse the basic questions but I could use some help
>in figuring out the charging on my Volts Rabbit. It
>has a 96V (6Vx16) US 125 Battery pack and a K&W 20
>charger. The car has an analog SOC gauge and that is
>it. Since this is a "dumb" charger, I really need
>help in determining how to best charge my pack.
>
>What steps should I take to make sure I am getting the
>most from my batteries.
>1)How do I determine how much was pulled from the pack
>after driving (check the voltage)??
>
>2) What are the steps in charging? I know of bulk and
>finish but not sure what it all means.
>
>3) How do I figure out how to set up the charger. I
>see there is a Current setting and a Voltage setting. How do they relate to
>each other?
>
>I have a timer set up at home to turn the charger off.
>
>I sure could use some help. I know that these are the
>most basic of EV questions but I really want to
>understand the process involved in properly charging
>flooded batteries.
>
>Thanks,
.




Roy LeMeur
cloudevtech@...
http://www.cloudelectric.com
http://www.dcelectricsupply.com

Cloud Electric Vehicles
19428 66th Ave So, Q-101
Kent, Washington 98032

phone: 425-251-6380
fax: 425-251-6381
Toll Free: 800-648-7716




My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html

Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html

EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm

That guy is on the "feet_forwards" mailing list -- they're into
recumbent and enclosed motorcycles. His little mechanical outrigger
thing is pretty cool.

Stu or Jan wrote:

>This is a neat idea. Look at the movie.
>
>
>
>http://www.rosscodesigns.com/prototype.htm
>
>
>
>BoyntonStu
>
>
>
>

Hi Eric and All,

--- Eric Poulsen <evlist@...> wrote:

> That guy is on the "feet_forwards" mailing list --
> they're into
> recumbent and enclosed motorcycles. His little

I finally got to a high speed computer to watch
the movie and it's way cool!!
A good design that shows the advantage of using
small, medium size wheels to make the overall design
short. I'd even shorten the upper rear more for less
side area.
The 'outriggers' are interesting but I think
having then pivot from forward and trailing aft would
be better as they wouldn't be as likely to get bent or
trip over.
Like a double center kick stand pushed down by
your foot thru a level inside. You only need it when
stopped so should do well.
His did look cool flapping down gave me a smile.

An EV like this would have a high top speed and
a very long range!!
Thanks,
Jerry Dycus

> mechanical outrigger
> thing is pretty cool.
>
> Stu or Jan wrote:
>
> >This is a neat idea. Look at the movie.
> >
> >
> >
> >http://www.rosscodesigns.com/prototype.htm
> >
> >
> >
> >BoyntonStu





____________________________________________________
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Thank You Sergie:

It is very exciting to find interest in EV's all over the world.
Especially in Eastern Europe, and Russia.

This spring while returning to USA from Spain, I met some young people
from Eastern Europe, and they were very interested in starting an
Electric Car Club in their country. We sent back and forth several
e-mail messages.

I hope I can help you the same.

It will take some time to get these old pictures and information
together. I have forwarded your request for information to the
International EV Discussion List, which started in California many years
ago. There are MANY people who read it, and send messages to it every
day from all over the world. You should consider suscribing to it. It
is free, of course.

There may be others who can send information to you, from the LIST for
your article.

We will write again soon.

Steven...
Seattle EV Association.

kitguide@... wrote:
> Dear Mr. Steven Lough ,
> Thank you for phone conversation.
> I'm Sergei Yakovlev from "Auto + Style" magazine and I want to contribute an
articla to magazine about American
> electric kit cars from 80-90's.At the given moment I'm working on the book
about American kit and specialty cars
> history from 70's to nowdays.I'm specialized on this them.
> Unfortunately I don't have illustrated and technical materials for "Kaylor"
,"Green Motor Works" ,"Replica Roadsters" ,
> "Vortex" and other specialty car builders.This Companies was closed.
> Would you send me old brochures ,photos and technical information of American
electric kit cars from 80-90's.Cover and
> illustrations of this brochures and photos I need for making and illustrations
to the article and in the book.
>
> My address:
> S.Yakovlev
> P.O.Box 17
> 115 404 Moscow
> Russia
>
> Tel: 7095/326-32-05
>
> Sincerely Yours ,
> Sergei Yakovlev
>

--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: stevenslough@...
web: http://www.seattleeva.org

--- In ev-list-archive@yahoogroups.com, ev@l... wrote:

Just how is it that EV motors - or any electric motors for that
matter – get serviced, rebuilt, replaced, etc? I mean, assuming one
does not do the work himself, which probably many on this list do. So
don't tell me what expert Ev-ers do. What does the "generic person"
do when they have a bad electric
motor in an appliance - say an air conditioner compressor, a washer
or dryer motor, a ceiling fan motor, etc.

Unfortunately a lot of newer electric motors are not feasible to
always rebuild. Some are even designed so as they cant even be
opened up, let alone repaired correctly. Other motor types are being
rebuilt everyday by a vast number of repair shops. Check your yellow
pages under "electric motor repair" and I bet you find several to
choose from. If lets say you have an irrigation motor that quit
working and you're an average Joe who doesn't even want to know what
it even looks like inside you'd go to someone who did a lot of
irrigation motors. If you are someone like those on the list you
would disassemble the thing and buy or service the parts as needed.

>In the ICE automotive world, the in between generic person who takes
a bad
part off his car will go to the nearest Autozone or whatever and drop
the bad
part on the counter, leave that as the "core," and pick up a
new/rebuilt one.
Does it function this way in the electric motor world?

Most larger shops stock motors which a customer can buy before their
core is received. No matter how large an inventory there are always
motors that have to be rebuilt, which causes down time for the
customer but they end up with a cheaper bill over the cost of a new
unit. If I had a stock motor and you brought one in it would cost X
amount. If you wanted me to repair yours, as needed it would be
cheaper and if you brought me just the armature it would be cheaper
still. Any work being done by the customer does not need to be done
by the tech. and should be reflected on the bill.

>Living in Alabama as a kid, I seem to remember going with my dad to
some electric motor shop to "get a motor rewound" or words to that
effect. I remember we left the motor, and a few days later we went
back to pick it up again. This shop was rather large, and downtown,
and I remember there being rows upon
rows of shelves behind the dude's counter, filled with electric
motors. Under this model, some dude actually takes your motor, takes
it apart, determines the problem, fixes it, and you get your motor
back. I think this dude would also sell you some rebuilt motor, if
you needed one. I presume that under this
model, the cost to fix an individual motor on an individual basis
would still be lower than just junking the motor and buying a new
one. But just thinking about it, this might only apply to larger more
expensive motors. At any rate, we'll call this "model 2."

Question 1: Which way does it work, for the most part? Model 1? Model
2? Some other model? If model 1, name the entity responsible, in the
end, for rebuilding the motor. You know, personally, I don't see
electric motor shops on every corner, if ever. Are there only a few
of them? Is it a good business?

As stated above it works both ways. As far a business goes when I
ran Beech Electric Calif. We did mid-5 figure months and let me tell
you, that's a lot of motors per month to rebuild. Some shops such as
myself don't advertise in the phone book. In fact I don't even have
a sign up. So you may have more around you than you know, hehe.

Question 2: How do you foresee things working in the future, when most
everyone has an electric or a hybrid? Do you foresee lots of electric
traction motors needing lots of servicing, rebuilding, etc? If so,
who's going to do it? If the dealer would replace the motor, where
does the dealer send the bad one? I doubt the car manufacturers
themselves would run motor repair shops back at main headquarters.
Anyone have a clue as to how this will work?
Thanks.
Sam

Actually there have been several major companies that have gotten
into the repair business. If there is a buck to be made be assured
that the corporate world will be there. As for smaller shops like me
I expect average Joes bringing me motors and scratching their heads,
but where if he wanted he could come on in and maybe learn a tid-bit
or two. That is unless I decide to give Ford a sales call, lol.

Hope this is more of what you were looking for
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric

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I live in fresno and today is 104 and they are predicting 110 later this
week, whew.
I want to ask how much energy do you guys find it takes to run an air
conditioner, Especially in climates like mine. I assume there are 3
motors involved, the one for the compressor, the one for the
condensor(radiator) and the one for the evaporator(blower)

The heat never use to bother me but after the last round of
prescriptions from my doctor, it is becoming a real problem. I need to
size the motor for the 1987 300zx ans I am thinking of buying two of
everything and retrofitting the AC unit in the ICE car to, just so I can
leave the AC running while I pop into the store or while I am in the
dreaded gas station. I noticed today while at the bank that a lot of
people leave ther cars running(sacralidge) just to run the AC in this
town, I don't want to join that group!

I think I could decrease my usage of gas if I ran the power steering and
AC off of batteries in the trunk and recharged them each night, (very
mild hybrid)

My bosses kid has a yamaha motorcycle in pieces in the back of the plant
and my boss was asking if I wanted it to turn it into an EV. I have
never been much of a motorcycle person, but how much motor and batteries
and controller would make a reasonable project? This is one of those
ninja style bikes, pretty big frame.

So I did a pretty vigorous run with the Prizm tonight, brought it in,
and hooked it to the Magnecharger. Fault.

Odd. Checked the status codes: Turns out the pack was above 40 degrees
C. It's 85 degrees F and muggy tonight, but what should be done in this
sort of case?

Let the car cool down?
Raise the max temp in the MC to 45c
Check for something wrong since 40c is hot.

I measure temps on the interconnects closest to the positive pole on 9
batteries, so it might just be hot interconnects from pulling 150amp draws.

Thoughts?
Chris

The AC in the Prizm pulls about 4amps at 300 volts running. Or about
1,200 watts. The payoff is a car that's cool in about a minute or so;
it's very hyperactive.

The motor is a 1hp, 300 volt brushless DC motor direct coupled to a
sanden compressor on one end and direct to pack on the other.

Chris

Jeff Shanab wrote:

> I live in fresno and today is 104 and they are predicting 110 later this
> week, whew.
> I want to ask how much energy do you guys find it takes to run an air
> conditioner, Especially in climates like mine. I assume there are 3
> motors involved, the one for the compressor, the one for the
> condensor(radiator) and the one for the evaporator(blower)
>
> The heat never use to bother me but after the last round of
> prescriptions from my doctor, it is becoming a real problem. I need to
> size the motor for the 1987 300zx ans I am thinking of buying two of
> everything and retrofitting the AC unit in the ICE car to, just so I can
> leave the AC running while I pop into the store or while I am in the
> dreaded gas station. I noticed today while at the bank that a lot of
> people leave ther cars running(sacralidge) just to run the AC in this
> town, I don't want to join that group!
>
> I think I could decrease my usage of gas if I ran the power steering and
> AC off of batteries in the trunk and recharged them each night, (very
> mild hybrid)
>

Hi Peter and All,

--- Peter VanDerWal <evdl@...> wrote:

> >> FWIW, top speed on my pickup is slightly over 70
> >> mph. Max power out of my
> >> batteries (120V worth of 8V GC) is just under 30
> kw.
> >> All power figures
> >> measured with an E-meter.
> >
> > I'd bet if you used a good aero camper type
> shell
> > like I've described before you could cut that 20%
> > easily, maybe more.
>
> Actually I tried a camper shell for a couple weeks a
> few years ago, power
> requirements went UP 10-15% so I removed it.
> Granted the shell was not all that aerodynamic, as
> Irecall iteven
> increased frontal area slightly.

It has to be the right shape and why I said a good
aero camper shell.
Also by completely replacing the bed saves weight
and can cover the rear wheel wells to decrease drag
even farther.
The guy did get a 28% increase in mileage with a
rather crude shelel plus other aero mods on the side
and front.


>
>
> >> while driving. Granted rapid charging them will
> >> create some heat, but in
> >
> > If lead and charged at under 80% state of
> charge,
> > almost no heat is made from charging, discharging,
> > especially if you have a gen making most of the
> power
> > needed and recharging quickly. Eff approaches
> 98%!!!
>
> I'm going to dissagree here; less heat Yes, but

You disagree !! I'm shocked ;-))
Some tests have even seen a cooling of the batts
under fast charging under 80% charged.

> almost none?
> The heat build up from discharge will be slower,but
> accure over a longer

With the gen running, the batts will need to be
used little and mostly surface charges which will heat
little coupled to the slight cooling from charging and
add an active battery cooling I'll have blowing air
throught the batt compartment between the batts,
heating of them is not going to be a problem.
Now other batt chemistries?


> period of time. Even if you keep the charging to
> below 80% SOC, the rapid
> charging requirement will cause battery heating.
>
> >>
> >> Still his other concerns are valid (engine and
> >> controller heating).
> >> This is one of the reasons that I'm a proponent
> for
> >> parallel hybrid schemes.
> >
> > But you don't reconize as Lee does the part
> load
> > ineff of a parallel system.
>
> I recognize this, however it has nothing to do with
> my concept since the
> engine will only be used at or near it's maximum
> efficieny point. That's
> why you have the Emotor, to suplement the ICE when
> the load goes up and
> (in regen mode) to addload to it when it drops.
>
> This is exactly what you are planning with the
> series hybrid, only the
> parallel hybrid doesn't loose efficiency due to
> double conversion looses,
> nore does your EV portion need to run full out
> continuously. Finally,
> since you're not loosing power due to double
> conversion, youcan use a
> smaller ICE which means lower weight,
> lessfuelconsumption and therefor
> lower emissions.

Not in real life unless you get a very intergated
set up costing big bucks. Even then it will be
maginally more eff with transmission losses, full time
weight added. Also much harder to design, impliment,
fit in a small space. And harder to remove when not
needed. And if permentantly installed then subject to
EPA laws which even if it's got great emissions
numbers, will take many $ to do legally. No thanks!! I
have enough headaches getting this going witout that.


>
> > There is a reason ICE cars
> > only get 7% of their fuel to the road where EV's
> get
>
> Where did you pull that number from? It's two to
> three times that much in
> all of the figures I've seen.

EPA amoung many other sources.
Engine eff 30% generous x trans eff 90%x final
drive 95% x idling 0% eff- 20hp at all times internal
friction just to turn a engine over before any power
is needed, made.
Most cars use more power in internal engine
friction than it takes to go 60mph!!! And that's where
part load ineff comes from.
YMMV depending on engine size but acceleration
demands means it must be much larger than what it
needs for steady state cruising.

>
>
> >> I prefer having the ICE mounted in/on the vehicle
> >> though for convienence.
> > And why I want to make my gens under 100lbs
> or
> > less than 2 batteries!!
>
> Well let's see...if the generator weighs 100 lbs,
> then the generator head
> probably weighs 30 lbs or so, that means the ICE
> weighs about 70.
> Loose the generator head and you can connect the ICE
> to the wheels through
> a transmission that problably weighs LESS than 30
> lbs. You can then also
> save weight by using lighter Emotors and
> controllers, since they won't
> have to run continuously at full power. Plus you

Not true as you need more power to push the motor
around when not needed as an EV and much more
complicated install. The clutch/drive alone will
probably weigh more than the powerhead.
With my range, 100miles, the gen will not even be
in the EV most of the time.
And if you don't have the gen head, you can't
charge during idling, slow traffic, parked so must
have a larger ICE to make up for that or more
complication, cost, weight.

> don't have double
> conversion losses so you gain efficiency.

The double conversion losses are 20% vs 5-10
transmission losses in the ICE so just not that much.
You save enough from the increased EV range when the
gen is not onboard.


> Finally, if you're really clever, you can design
> your transmission to
> allow the ICE to drive the Emotor without turning
> the wheels and now you
> have a generator to use while stationary.

Costly, complicated. Maybe when I'm a millionaire
to afford the EPA regulation costs ;-))
But as I've shown, Parallel is marginally more eff
but only when used. As it will rarely be used, it just
doesn't make sense to lug it around all the time.
Feel free to lug one around yourself, but for me,
no thanks. It's plug in EVing 95%+ of the time for
me!! I'll take simplisity, flexability. And 100mpg is
good enough for me!!!
Jerry Dycus






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