EV Digest 4500

Topics covered in this issue include:

1) Re: Air conditioner etc
by "Christopher Robison" <eeyore@...>
2) Re: EV eff Re: Engine Generator Question
by jerry dycus <jerry5335@...>
3) Re: Air conditioner etc
by Christopher Zach <czach@...>
4) An idea to record information for sharing ideas on a sub 750 lb hybrid.
by "Stu or Jan" <stu@...>
5) RE: Motor cycle for electric
by "damon henry" <damonhenry@...>
6) Re: Motor cycle for electric
by Adam McLeod <adam@...>
7) Re: Air conditioner etc
by "Christopher Robison" <eeyore@...>
8) Re: Air conditioner etc
by "David Roden" <evpost@...>
9) Re: 120v 6.7" ADC?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
10) Re: Motor cycle for electric
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
11) Re: Motor cycle for electric
by "damon henry" <damonhenry@...>
12) Re: State of Charge calculations - Eureka!!!
by "MT" <soltex@...>
13) Re: Motorcycle for electric
by "Roy LeMeur" <roylemeur@...>
14) RE: Hybrid Engine-LPG+Diesel
by "djsharpe" <djsharpe@...>
15) RE: Hybrid Engine-LPG+Diesel
by "djsharpe" <djsharpe@...>
16) Cool your motor with hydrogen gas
by "djsharpe" <djsharpe@...>
17) Prius batteries
by "djsharpe" <djsharpe@...>
18) Re: Prius batteries
by cowtown@...
19) Re: EV eff was: Engine Generator Question
by cowtown@...
20) Re: Motor cycle for electric
by "Philippe Borges" <philippe.borges@...>
21) MC EV drive Set ups / eff Re: Motor cycle for electric
by jerry dycus <jerry5335@...>
22) article: The RIDER: an electric commuter trike
by Paul Wujek <pdw@...>
23) RE: CUSHMAN EV's
by "Rick Barnes" <barnes.rick@...>
24) RE: Please critique adapter
by "Chris Tromley" <chris_t@...>

Can you give more information about your motor -- who made it, pictures
maybe? Where can a person find a motor like this? I'd like to have the
option of air conditioning in a high-voltage EV, and hooking it up
directly to the pack would be really nice.

I have one of those $10 260VDC motors from surplus center hoping that I
can feed it more volts than it's designed for if I gear it to spin fast at
low torque, but I have my doubts that it will handle 348V.

--chris



Christopher Zach said:
> The AC in the Prizm pulls about 4amps at 300 volts running. Or about
> 1,200 watts. The payoff is a car that's cool in about a minute or so;
> it's very hyperactive.
>
> The motor is a 1hp, 300 volt brushless DC motor direct coupled to a
> sanden compressor on one end and direct to pack on the other.
>
> Chris
>
> Jeff Shanab wrote:
>
>> I live in fresno and today is 104 and they are predicting 110 later this
>> week, whew.
>> I want to ask how much energy do you guys find it takes to run an air
>> conditioner, Especially in climates like mine. I assume there are 3
>> motors involved, the one for the compressor, the one for the
>> condensor(radiator) and the one for the evaporator(blower)
>>
>> The heat never use to bother me but after the last round of
>> prescriptions from my doctor, it is becoming a real problem. I need to
>> size the motor for the 1987 300zx ans I am thinking of buying two of
>> everything and retrofitting the AC unit in the ICE car to, just so I can
>> leave the AC running while I pop into the store or while I am in the
>> dreaded gas station. I noticed today while at the bank that a lot of
>> people leave ther cars running(sacralidge) just to run the AC in this
>> town, I don't want to join that group!
>>
>> I think I could decrease my usage of gas if I ran the power steering and
>> AC off of batteries in the trunk and recharged them each night, (very
>> mild hybrid)
>>
>
>

Hi Peter and All,

--- Peter VanDerWal <evdl@...> wrote:

> >> FWIW, top speed on my pickup is slightly over 70
> >> mph. Max power out of my
> >> batteries (120V worth of 8V GC) is just under 30
> kw.
> >> All power figures
> >> measured with an E-meter.
> >
> > I'd bet if you used a good aero camper type
> shell
> > like I've described before you could cut that 20%
> > easily, maybe more.
>
> Actually I tried a camper shell for a couple weeks a
> few years ago, power
> requirements went UP 10-15% so I removed it.
> Granted the shell was not all that aerodynamic, as
> Irecall iteven
> increased frontal area slightly.

It has to be the right shape and why I said a good
aero camper shell.
Also by completely replacing the bed saves weight
and can cover the rear wheel wells to decrease drag
even farther.
The guy did get a 28% increase in mileage with a
rather crude shelel plus other aero mods on the side
and front.


>
>
> >> while driving. Granted rapid charging them will
> >> create some heat, but in
> >
> > If lead and charged at under 80% state of
> charge,
> > almost no heat is made from charging, discharging,
> > especially if you have a gen making most of the
> power
> > needed and recharging quickly. Eff approaches
> 98%!!!
>
> I'm going to dissagree here; less heat Yes, but

You disagree !! I'm shocked ;-))
Some tests have even seen a cooling of the batts
under fast charging under 80% charged.

> almost none?
> The heat build up from discharge will be slower,but
> accure over a longer

With the gen running, the batts will need to be
used little and mostly surface charges which will heat
little coupled to the slight cooling from charging and
add an active battery cooling I'll have blowing air
throught the batt compartment between the batts,
heating of them is not going to be a problem.
Now other batt chemistries?


> period of time. Even if you keep the charging to
> below 80% SOC, the rapid
> charging requirement will cause battery heating.
>
> >>
> >> Still his other concerns are valid (engine and
> >> controller heating).
> >> This is one of the reasons that I'm a proponent
> for
> >> parallel hybrid schemes.
> >
> > But you don't reconize as Lee does the part
> load
> > ineff of a parallel system.
>
> I recognize this, however it has nothing to do with
> my concept since the
> engine will only be used at or near it's maximum
> efficieny point. That's
> why you have the Emotor, to suplement the ICE when
> the load goes up and
> (in regen mode) to addload to it when it drops.
>
> This is exactly what you are planning with the
> series hybrid, only the
> parallel hybrid doesn't loose efficiency due to
> double conversion looses,
> nore does your EV portion need to run full out
> continuously. Finally,
> since you're not loosing power due to double
> conversion, youcan use a
> smaller ICE which means lower weight,
> lessfuelconsumption and therefor
> lower emissions.

Not in real life unless you get a very intergated
set up costing big bucks. Even then it will be
maginally more eff with transmission losses, full time
weight added. Also much harder to design, impliment,
fit in a small space. And harder to remove when not
needed. And if permentantly installed then subject to
EPA laws which even if it's got great emissions
numbers, will take many $ to do legally. No thanks!! I
have enough headaches getting this going witout that.


>
> > There is a reason ICE cars
> > only get 7% of their fuel to the road where EV's
> get
>
> Where did you pull that number from? It's two to
> three times that much in
> all of the figures I've seen.

EPA amoung many other sources.
Engine eff 30% generous x trans eff 90%x final
drive 95% x idling 0% eff- 20hp at all times internal
friction just to turn a engine over before any power
is needed, made.
Most cars use more power in internal engine
friction than it takes to go 60mph!!! And that's where
part load ineff comes from.
YMMV depending on engine size but acceleration
demands means it must be much larger than what it
needs for steady state cruising.

>
>
> >> I prefer having the ICE mounted in/on the vehicle
> >> though for convienence.
> > And why I want to make my gens under 100lbs
> or
> > less than 2 batteries!!
>
> Well let's see...if the generator weighs 100 lbs,
> then the generator head
> probably weighs 30 lbs or so, that means the ICE
> weighs about 70.
> Loose the generator head and you can connect the ICE
> to the wheels through
> a transmission that problably weighs LESS than 30
> lbs. You can then also
> save weight by using lighter Emotors and
> controllers, since they won't
> have to run continuously at full power. Plus you

Not true as you need more power to push the motor
around when not needed as an EV and much more
complicated install. The clutch/drive alone will
probably weigh more than the powerhead.
With my range, 100miles, the gen will not even be
in the EV most of the time.
And if you don't have the gen head, you can't
charge during idling, slow traffic, parked so must
have a larger ICE to make up for that or more
complication, cost, weight.

> don't have double
> conversion losses so you gain efficiency.

The double conversion losses are 20% vs 5-10
transmission losses in the ICE so just not that much.
You save enough from the increased EV range when the
gen is not onboard.


> Finally, if you're really clever, you can design
> your transmission to
> allow the ICE to drive the Emotor without turning
> the wheels and now you
> have a generator to use while stationary.

Costly, complicated. Maybe when I'm a millionaire
to afford the EPA regulation costs ;-))
But as I've shown, Parallel is marginally more eff
but only when used. As it will rarely be used, it just
doesn't make sense to lug it around all the time.
Feel free to lug one around yourself, but for me,
no thanks. It's plug in EVing 95%+ of the time for
me!! I'll take simplisity, flexability. And 100mpg is
good enough for me!!!
Jerry Dycus





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> Can you give more information about your motor -- who made it, pictures
> maybe? Where can a person find a motor like this? I'd like to have the
> option of air conditioning in a high-voltage EV, and hooking it up
> directly to the pack would be really nice.

Unfortunately no. The motor is kind of buried in the car; pain to get
out. And the controller is a total black-box custom sort of job.

> I have one of those $10 260VDC motors from surplus center hoping that I
> can feed it more volts than it's designed for if I gear it to spin fast at
> low torque, but I have my doubts that it will handle 348V.

Is it a brushless DC (aka AC lite) or a standard series wound motor?

Chris

I am designing a lightweight Hybrid in my imagination.



My goal is a sub 750 lb 2F1R vehicle.



I am 'collecting' components in my mind.



The Yahoo EV files section might be a good place to place the information
should anyone care to read or add to the list.



As per Jerry's advice I have in my mind a front end from either a MG or a
Triumph. Model and years not known.



If anyone else is interested, we could open a File and call it "750 lb 3
wheeler". People could post their suggestions of how to build it, and what
components to use, etc.



What do you think?





I am extremely interested in safety and the design of a cabin/roll cage
that would really offer protection at speeds up to 80 mph (relative speed)
crashes. Is that a useful goal?





About 40 years ago, I saw an elderly couple in a '55 Chevy on the NJ
Turnpike. They were both wearing helmets and I could see that they had a
roll bar. I imagine that they also wore a 5 point harness. At the time I
was young and foolish, and I thought that they were 'silly'. Today I
realize that if everyone drove like that, fatalities would be greatly
reduced.



Does anyone have information on what it takes to create a safe 'womb' to
drive in?





BoyntonStu

I have a 6.7 inch ADC motor, Altrax 48V 400 amp controller, and a 44 BB600
Nicad cells (~53v nominal). It's all tucked in a 1974 Suzuki GT250 frame.
With a 14 to 41 gear ratio I have a top speed of 60mph. I recently
completed the ride from my house to John Wayland's which is 17 miles over
half of which was freeway. My pack wasn't dead, but it was getting close.
If I were to change one thing in my setup I would go for a 72v controller.

damon

>From: Jeff Shanab <jshanab@...>
>Reply-To: ev@...
>To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
>Subject: Motor cycle for electric
>Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 18:36:01 -0700
>
>My bosses kid has a yamaha motorcycle in pieces in the back of the plant
>and my boss was asking if I wanted it to turn it into an EV. I have never
>been much of a motorcycle person, but how much motor and batteries and
>controller would make a reasonable project? This is one of those ninja
>style bikes, pretty big frame.
>

damon henry wrote:

> I have a 6.7 inch ADC motor, Altrax 48V 400 amp controller, and a 44
> BB600 Nicad cells (~53v nominal). It's all tucked in a 1974 Suzuki
> GT250 frame. With a 14 to 41 gear ratio I have a top speed of 60mph.
> I recently completed the ride from my house to John Wayland's which is
> 17 miles over half of which was freeway. My pack wasn't dead, but it
> was getting close. If I were to change one thing in my setup I would
> go for a 72v controller.
>
> damon
>
>
Do you have any pictures of this setup? I am interested in building an
electric motorcycle for comuting, but I have yet to find a setup that I
like. The use of a GT250 frame sounds interesting.

Thanks,

Adam.

Christopher Zach said:

>> I have one of those $10 260VDC motors from surplus center hoping that I
>> can feed it more volts than it's designed for if I gear it to spin fast
>> at
>> low torque, but I have my doubts that it will handle 348V.
>
> Is it a brushless DC (aka AC lite) or a standard series wound motor?

It's a typical permanent magnet DC treadmill motor, just wound for a
higher voltage than the usual 90-130VDC:

http://surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2005071222003654&item=10-2167&catname=elec\
tric

Whether it works for my application or not, this is a big chunk of motor
for the price. I actually have two of them, and I'd considered wiring
them in series. I'd rather avoid the extra weight if I can though.

--chris

On 12 Jul 2005 at 22:10, Christopher Zach wrote:

> The AC in the Prizm pulls about 4amps at 300 volts running. Or about
> 1,200 watts.

My Solectria Force has a bldc motor driving the original Geo Metro
compressor. The ammeter says that the system uses about a kilowatt when
running (7 amps at 144 volts).


David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator

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> And for Lawrence and others we may have confused. Sorry about that.
> Yes, at higher voltage you can shift to keep the motor spinning faster
> which means more RPM, fewer amps and a cooler motor.
>
> hth,
> --
> -Otmar-

Yes. I call that a down shift. I'd use 2nd gear at 45mph crusing rather
than 3rd gear. Seems to draw less current. But without the higher
voltage....Sorry no speed. But with the higher voltage overspeeding can
become a problem. At what voltage will that happen? Lets say you have
96,.120, 144, 156v etc.... At what level do you have to worry about
overspeeding the motor through high voltage. LR......

There are a couple of great examples up on the EV photo album. They are now
in the Newbie page but there are more examples under motorcycles. 6 yellow
tops and and A89 or ETEK make a great combo(72v). You have to watch the
ETEK for overheating though. LR..........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <jshanab@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2005 6:36 PM
Subject: Motor cycle for electric


> My bosses kid has a yamaha motorcycle in pieces in the back of the plant
> and my boss was asking if I wanted it to turn it into an EV. I have never
> been much of a motorcycle person, but how much motor and batteries and
> controller would make a reasonable project? This is one of those ninja
> style bikes, pretty big frame.
>

I'v been meaning to snap a few new photos since I switched packs. I'll try
to get a few tomorrow and post them.

>From: Adam McLeod <adam@...>
>Reply-To: ev@...
>To: ev@...
>Subject: Re: Motor cycle for electric
>Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 23:01:26 -0400
>
>damon henry wrote:
>
>>I have a 6.7 inch ADC motor, Altrax 48V 400 amp controller, and a 44 BB600
>>Nicad cells (~53v nominal). It's all tucked in a 1974 Suzuki GT250 frame.
>> With a 14 to 41 gear ratio I have a top speed of 60mph. I recently
>>completed the ride from my house to John Wayland's which is 17 miles over
>>half of which was freeway. My pack wasn't dead, but it was getting close.
>> If I were to change one thing in my setup I would go for a 72v
>>controller.
>>
>>damon
>>
>>
>Do you have any pictures of this setup? I am interested in building an
>electric motorcycle for comuting, but I have yet to find a setup that I
>like. The use of a GT250 frame sounds interesting.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Adam.
>

Roger, I understand how you are thinking about it. Please see my reply
starting about 20 lines below.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <rstockton@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2005 2:43 PM
Subject: RE: State of Charge calculations - Eureka!!!


> MT [mailto:soltex@...] wrote:
>
> > (BS^n)A is still a little different (BS)A
>
> Absolutely. The point some people seem to be missing is that you cannot
> arbitrarily assign the units where you happen to feel is convenient or
> where happens to make sense to you.
>
> > It is my pinion that to avoid confusion the equation should
> > be written:
> >
> > Cp = (10^1.25)A x 20 hr = 355.6 Ahr
> >
> > so that the Peukert exponent is attached where it needs to be.
>
> Unfortunately your opinion is wrong, and here is why:
>
> The value '10' in the above equation is 10A, and was obtained by taking
> the battery's capacity at the 20-hour rate (C/20) of 200Ah and dividing
> by the 20 hour dishcarge time to determine the average discharge
> current: Ah / h = A, 200Ah/20h = 10A.


Sorry, although I can agree to disagree, the value of '10' is the 'I' which
means the magnitude of the current, a number not a lable or units. We just
so happen to know that the units is refered to in amps.

Think of it this way:

I=current we know we are refering to amps
E=electromotive force we know we are refering to volts
R=Resistance we know we are refering to ohms

I=current = the amount of electrical charge crossing a cross-sectional area
per unit time.
So when we see I^n as in Cp = i^n * T, we are refering to the (amount of the
electrical charge)^n which in the end will be called amps.

Its like if someone said there are 50 students in school district A but 50^2
students in school district B, in actuality you are working on the numerical
value of students. In this case we are working on the numerical value of
amps. We are not squaring the 'students' lable, just the numerical value or
magnitude, or value.

The 10^1.25 result shows the different relationship between the average
discharge current value of 10 and 17.78 by applying the exponent determined
for that system and in essence letting you know that the capacity is not the
same as that derived through the innitial average calculation.

Numerically, 17.78 is 10^1.25 is I^n. But instead of saying 17.78A it is
saying 10^1.25A. If n=1.36 then instead of saying 22.9A it would say
10^1.36A, or I=10^1.36A=22.9A.

There is no arbitrary assignment of units as you suggest below, which
originated in a previous post discribing the equation.

We are working within the unit and not on the unit.

Applying units analysis:
Cp = (10^1.25)A x 20 hr = 355.6 Ahr
Cp= (coefficient)A x (coefficient)hr = (coefficient)Ahr
Cp= A x hr = Ahr a.k.a. Ah in which capacities are stated.

MT



> When you substitute this value into Peukert's equation, both the
> magnitude and dimension (units) are substituted in the same place.
> Think of it this way: if we represent the current value by the variable
> 'i', then:
>
> Cp = i^n * T
>
> n=1.25, T=20hr, so: Cp = i^1.25 * 20hr
>
> Now, if we perform a units analysis on this equation, we run the
> equation just with units, and substitute the units associated with the
> variable 'i' in its place:
>
> Cp = amps^1.25 * hr
>
> Units both sides of the equation must be the same for it to be valid, so
> Cp has units of amps^1.25 * hr.
>
> If we want to solve the equation for a given value of i=10amps, we
> substitute 10 amps for 'i':
>
> Cp = (10amps)^1.25 * 20hr = 355.6 amps^1.25 * hr.
>
> We cannot substitute the magnitude in place of 'i' and arbitrarily plunk
> the dimension somewhere else.
>
> Finally, note that not producing a result with units of Ahr does not
> make this equation invalid or useless. It just means that one must
> recognise that the result is not an Ah quantity and cannot be added or
> subtracted from Ah quantities. A correct way to use this Peukert
> capacity is as described by Paul 'Neon' Gooch.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>

Some emotorcycle links-

EV Album Motorcycles
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/motorcycles.html

Reverend Gadget's Electric Motorcycle
http://reverendgadget.com/subpage1.html

Killa Cycle
World's Quickest Electric Motorcycle
9.45 seconds @ 152.07 mph in the 1/4 mile:
http://www.killacycle.com

Vectrix Electric Bike
http://www.vectrixusa.com

Electric Motorsport Motorcycles
http://www.electricmotorsport.com

Jackal Electric Bike
http://thunderstruck-ev.com/jackal_home.htm


>My bosses kid has a yamaha motorcycle in pieces in the back of the plant
>and my boss was asking if I wanted it to turn it into an EV. I have never
>been much of a motorcycle person, but how much motor and batteries and
>controller would make a reasonable project? This is one of those ninja
>style bikes, pretty big frame.
.




Roy LeMeur
cloudevtech@...
http://www.cloudelectric.com
http://www.dcelectricsupply.com

Cloud Electric Vehicles
19428 66th Ave So, Q-101
Kent, Washington 98032

phone: 425-251-6380
fax: 425-251-6381
Toll Free: 800-648-7716




My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html

Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html

EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm

........but LPG is cheap & distillate is dear (in Aus at least)
David

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...] On
Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
Sent: Wednesday, 13 July 2005 5:17 AM
To: ev@...
Subject: Re: Hybrid Engine-LPG+Diesel

> Is it possible to suck LPG or CNG etc into the intake of an idling CI
> engine so as to then have a combined fuel engine? If you think there
is
> a likelihood of success I would give it a go with one of my CI
vehicles
> as an experiment. I know that a straight SI LPG engine has much higher
> CR than an engine that can run on petrol or LPG.
> David Sharpe
>

Injecting propane into a Desiel engine is actually a fairly common
practice, there are several dozen kits available for doing this.
It improves your desiel mileage and torque... and can also destroy your
engine if not done correctly.

Unless you need the extra torque, it's probably not worth it however.
The
savings in desiel is pretty much offset by the cost the of propane.

It may be simply a matter of replacing the injector with a spark plug
and a suitable spark timing arrangement. An aircraft engine could just
about be setup to run at a fixed throttle. Gas engines use similar CRs
to CI engines.
David

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...] On
Behalf Of D B
Sent: Wednesday, 13 July 2005 6:02 AM
To: ev@...
Subject: Re: Hybrid Engine-LPG+Diesel

Benteaches@... wrote:

>In a message dated 7/10/2005 10:16:50 AM Pacific Standard Time,
>djsharpe@... writes:
>
><< Is it possible to suck LPG or CNG etc into the intake of an idling
CI
> engine so as to then have a combined fuel engine? >>
>
>Idling? Probably not a good idea without major injection pump redesign.
>There are lots of propane/diesel kits on the market to boost power
>(definitely) and mileage (maybe...)
>CNG/diesel injection is common; 90% cng for fuel, 10% diesel for
ignition.
>Very clean running.
>
>Ben
>
>
>
>
>
>
Aloha: I'm the electric aircraft lurker on this list, but have also
looked into making a Jet-A or diesel powered aircraft or electric-diesel

hybrid aircraft, using the powerhead from a Yanmar 36 HP, 3-cylinder
single overhead cam engine. Many companies, primarily Euro, are putting
out piston engines that run on Jet-A on the market simply because many
airports no longer have Avgas. Many require turbos for achieving
adequate take-off power, and are much heavier than the engines they are
designed to replace. This approach makes a great deal of sense here in
the Pacific, as very few airports south of Hawaii have Avgas at any
price.

Others have "fumigated" their diesel engines lto make the dual fuel,
particuarly engines which pump natural gas inside pipelines. NO2 can
also "fumigate" an engine for more power, and still rely upon
diesel-injection for ignition and timing. Some of the Nitrous Oxide
books talk about injecting into diesels, but not too much is covered. I
do know that they inject NO2 as a liquid and let its evaporation cool
the incoming charge. I see no reason why the same would not be true for
Propane, LPG or CNG. Aloha David

Hydrogen has much lower windage losses than air & maybe better heat
transfer ability so why not fill your motor with it and circulate the
gas around via a radiator for cooling. You would need to seal all
orifices. We had H2 in large electrical machines for this purpose I
recall from my old electricity industry days.
I know .....remember the Hindenburg!
Just an idea for those chasing every Watt.
David

A friend has pointed out that the older Prius uses 288V size D 7Ahr. My
EV is 144V so how many battery packs are needed for approx 100Ahr-----7?
Now to find some totalled Prius.
Any objections listers?
David

<<<
A friend has pointed out that the older Prius uses 288V size D 7Ahr. My
EV is 144V so how many battery packs are needed for approx 100Ahr-----7?
Now to find some totalled Prius.
Any objections listers?
David
>>>

Isn't there a major issue with charging NiMH packs in parallel causing
imbalances?

> > >> FWIW, top speed on my pickup is slightly over 70
> > >> mph. Max power out of my
> > >> batteries (120V worth of 8V GC) is just under 30
> > kw.
> > >> All power figures
> > >> measured with an E-meter.
> > >
> > > I'd bet if you used a good aero camper type
> > shell
> > > like I've described before you could cut that 20%
> > > easily, maybe more.
> >
> > Actually I tried a camper shell for a couple weeks a
> > few years ago, power
> > requirements went UP 10-15% so I removed it.
> > Granted the shell was not all that aerodynamic, as
> > Irecall iteven
> > increased frontal area slightly.
>
> It has to be the right shape and why I said a good
> aero camper shell.
> Also by completely replacing the bed saves weight
> and can cover the rear wheel wells to decrease drag
> even farther.
> The guy did get a 28% increase in mileage with a
> rather crude shelel plus other aero mods on the side
> and front.
>
>
> >
> >
> > >> while driving. Granted rapid charging them will
> > >> create some heat, but in
> > >
> > > If lead and charged at under 80% state of
> > charge,
> > > almost no heat is made from charging, discharging,
> > > especially if you have a gen making most of the
> > power
> > > needed and recharging quickly. Eff approaches
> > 98%!!!
> >
> > I'm going to dissagree here; less heat Yes, but
>
> You disagree !! I'm shocked ;-))
> Some tests have even seen a cooling of the batts
> under fast charging under 80% charged.
>
> > almost none?
> > The heat build up from discharge will be slower,but
> > accure over a longer
>
> With the gen running, the batts will need to be
> used little and mostly surface charges which will heat
> little coupled to the slight cooling from charging and
> add an active battery cooling I'll have blowing air
> throught the batt compartment between the batts,
> heating of them is not going to be a problem.
> Now other batt chemistries?
>
>
> > period of time. Even if you keep the charging to
> > below 80% SOC, the rapid
> > charging requirement will cause battery heating.
> >
> > >>
> > >> Still his other concerns are valid (engine and
> > >> controller heating).
> > >> This is one of the reasons that I'm a proponent
> > for
> > >> parallel hybrid schemes.
> > >
> > > But you don't reconize as Lee does the part
> > load
> > > ineff of a parallel system.
> >
> > I recognize this, however it has nothing to do with
> > my concept since the
> > engine will only be used at or near it's maximum
> > efficieny point. That's
> > why you have the Emotor, to suplement the ICE when
> > the load goes up and
> > (in regen mode) to addload to it when it drops.
> >
> > This is exactly what you are planning with the
> > series hybrid, only the
> > parallel hybrid doesn't loose efficiency due to
> > double conversion looses,
> > nore does your EV portion need to run full out
> > continuously. Finally,
> > since you're not loosing power due to double
> > conversion, youcan use a
> > smaller ICE which means lower weight,
> > lessfuelconsumption and therefor
> > lower emissions.
>
> Not in real life unless you get a very intergated
> set up costing big bucks. Even then it will be
> maginally more eff with transmission losses, full time
> weight added. Also much harder to design, impliment,
> fit in a small space. And harder to remove when not
> needed. And if permentantly installed then subject to
> EPA laws which even if it's got great emissions
> numbers, will take many $ to do legally. No thanks!! I
> have enough headaches getting this going witout that.
>
>
> >
> > > There is a reason ICE cars
> > > only get 7% of their fuel to the road where EV's
> > get
> >
> > Where did you pull that number from? It's two to
> > three times that much in
> > all of the figures I've seen.
>
> EPA amoung many other sources.
> Engine eff 30% generous x trans eff 90%x final
> drive 95% x idling 0% eff- 20hp at all times internal
> friction just to turn a engine over before any power
> is needed, made.
> Most cars use more power in internal engine
> friction than it takes to go 60mph!!! And that's where
> part load ineff comes from.
> YMMV depending on engine size but acceleration
> demands means it must be much larger than what it
> needs for steady state cruising.
>
> >
> >
> > >> I prefer having the ICE mounted in/on the vehicle
> > >> though for convienence.
> > > And why I want to make my gens under 100lbs
> > or
> > > less than 2 batteries!!
> >
> > Well let's see...if the generator weighs 100 lbs,
> > then the generator head
> > probably weighs 30 lbs or so, that means the ICE
> > weighs about 70.
> > Loose the generator head and you can connect the ICE
> > to the wheels through
> > a transmission that problably weighs LESS than 30
> > lbs. You can then also
> > save weight by using lighter Emotors and
> > controllers, since they won't
> > have to run continuously at full power. Plus you
>
> Not true as you need more power to push the motor
> around when not needed as an EV and much more
> complicated install. The clutch/drive alone will
> probably weigh more than the powerhead.
> With my range, 100miles, the gen will not even be
> in the EV most of the time.
> And if you don't have the gen head, you can't
> charge during idling, slow traffic, parked so must
> have a larger ICE to make up for that or more
> complication, cost, weight.
>
> > don't have double
> > conversion losses so you gain efficiency.
>
> The double conversion losses are 20% vs 5-10
> transmission losses in the ICE so just not that much.
> You save enough from the increased EV range when the
> gen is not onboard.
>
>
> > Finally, if you're really clever, you can design
> > your transmission to
> > allow the ICE to drive the Emotor without turning
> > the wheels and now you
> > have a generator to use while stationary.
>
> Costly, complicated. Maybe when I'm a millionaire
> to afford the EPA regulation costs ;-))
> But as I've shown, Parallel is marginally more eff
> but only when used. As it will rarely be used, it just
> doesn't make sense to lug it around all the time.
> Feel free to lug one around yourself, but for me,
> no thanks. It's plug in EVing 95%+ of the time for
> me!! I'll take simplisity, flexability. And 100mpg is
> good enough for me!!!
> Jerry Dycus

All your numbers seem to be guesses - what resources did you use to come up with
the values behind what you think will happen? (a couple EVs with salvaged parts
count towards only 2 rather inexact data points)

the question is how much will you (boss?) spend on this ?

expensive ice killer
ADC 6,7
zilla 1k
120V 40Ah kokam cells (very high power lithium)

fun commuter
etek
72V450A Alltrax
72V 40Ah kokam

reasonnable project:
etek
72V300A Alltrax
72V 26Ah hawker (lead batteries)


Philippe

Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <jshanab@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 3:36 AM
Subject: Motor cycle for electric


> My bosses kid has a yamaha motorcycle in pieces in the back of the plant
> and my boss was asking if I wanted it to turn it into an EV. I have
> never been much of a motorcycle person, but how much motor and batteries
> and controller would make a reasonable project? This is one of those
> ninja style bikes, pretty big frame.
>

Hi Philippe and All,

--- Philippe Borges <philippe.borges@...>
wrote:

> the question is how much will you (boss?) spend on
> this ?
>
> expensive ice killer
> ADC 6,7
> zilla 1k
> 120V 40Ah kokam cells (very high power lithium)

Needlessly expensive as a MC rear wheel could not
handle the torque.
Better at much lower cost would be a 6.7" motor of
which there are many kinds, power ratings, a 36vdc,
high amp version prefered, A 600-800 amp 72-96vdc
controller and a string or 2 of BB600 nicads. High
gear ratio with field weakening ups torque output
again if nessasary. Or a 450 amp controller with a
bypass contactor.
Now add a real aero fairing covering 1/2 the bike
will double the range at speed and allow a higher top
speed so really the best power, range upgrade you can
make at the cost of some light material and clear
plastic. Keeps most of the rain/cold out too or
completely if you do a full aero cabin.


>
> fun commuter
> etek
> 72V450A Alltrax
> 72V 40Ah kokam

You really need 2 Etek's if you want to do any
kind of power or speed over 50mph or good hill
climbing ability. Series/parallel them and you need
1/2 less controller for the same power. And you could
add a bypass contactor for better top end power.
Also while we would love Kokam's, this size pack
would be $8-10K?
The BB600's would be almost as good though weight
twice as much but 1/10 the cost if you can find some.
Personally I'd use 4 Trojan 27tmh's 12v130 amphr
batts well sealed or 100/180amphr SAFT ni-cads 48vdc
pack with 2 Eteks S/P and a Sevcon 300 amp or other PM
regen controller for eff, long range and with a good
fairing, high speed while keeping range and a bypass
contactor for more power.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus

>
> reasonnable project:
> etek
> 72V300A Alltrax
> 72V 26Ah hawker (lead batteries)
>
>
> Philippe
>
> Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du
> volant ?
> quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jeff Shanab" <jshanab@...>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
> <ev@...>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 3:36 AM
> Subject: Motor cycle for electric
>
>
> > My bosses kid has a yamaha motorcycle in pieces in
> the back of the plant
> > and my boss was asking if I wanted it to turn it
> into an EV. I have
> > never been much of a motorcycle person, but how
> much motor and batteries
> > and controller would make a reasonable project?
> This is one of those
> > ninja style bikes, pretty big frame.
> >
>
>




____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

A small 15 mph leaning trike:

http://www.gizmag.com/go/4266/

--
Paul Wujek

Most of the Cushman's are not built for highway use. I made some
modifications to a battery operated Cushman Titan 4-wheeler and registered
it as a "Low Speed" vehicle in Oregon (25 MPH speed, can operate on roads
posted 35 MPH or less). I think it would be very difficult or impossible to
get a regular plate for an off-road vehicle like this. One major road block
is that is needs to be built to NHTSA standards and have a tag on the
vehicle which states this. The off-road Cushman's are built to Factory
Mutual or other standards.

The best bet may be a 3-wheeled Cushman, in many places 3-wheels can be
registered as a motorcycle with very few restrictions.

Rick Barnes
Aloha, OR

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...] On
Behalf Of jerry dycus
Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2005 5:50 AM
To: ev@...
Subject: Re: CUSHMAN EV's



Hi Mark and All,

--- Mark Hanson <mhanson@...> wrote:

> Has anyone converted one of these? or have tried to
> put one on the street? Top Speed? He doesn't have
> a title so I'm not sure if Cushman had one
> initially.
>
> http://www.southbostonsurplus.com/CUSHMAN.html
>

So that why the earlier question.
I'd worry about the title problem. Check with you
local titling office to see if it can be done and how.
If you can't get a title, don't buy it. They are of
little value without a title so if you can get one,
offer him less to make up for the trouble.
One could get a mechcanic's lean title but a lot of
work and takes time. You'd ned to have it legally
leaned for work or storeage then buy it at auction
again to be legal. Your local laws may be different.
But these were built as EV and maybe still from the
factory but their $14k several yrs ago when I last
checked, costs has kept them from selling!!
And as they are not great handing, you need to be
careful but as an EV they handle much better.
Top speed could be 40-50mph as an EV. One could
easily pop a large golf cart trasaxle in place of the
ICE one for a very easy conversion.
They would make a cool EV. If I found one cheap,
I'd convert it!!
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus





>




____________________________________________________
Sell on Yahoo! Auctions - no fees. Bid on great items.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/

David Dymaxion wrote:

> --- Roland Wiench <ev_7@...> wrote:
> > The best way to find out how thick your adapter plate should be is,
> > slide the transmission pilot shaft into the motor pilot bearing.
> > Take measurements from the transmission bell housing to the rear
> > motor face. ...
>
> I had done it a harder way, this'll be a great check on my
> measurements.

Hi David,

I'm behind on reading the list (again), so apologies if this has been
addressed. I don't think clearance between the input shaft and the depth of
the pilot bearing is a good indicator. It will make sure nothing rubs, but
you also have to consider the relationship between the clutch actuation
hardware (mounted on the trans) and the pressure plate (on the flywheel).

There is relatively little motion in a clutch release system. Small
deviations from the proper spacing might have a big influence on how the
clutch operates. If not now, perhaps when it wears. The best way to get
the proper setup is to have your adapter/motor/flywheel duplicate the
original engine. All converters take note - get the distance from the
flywheel face to the surface that mates with the trans *before* you dispose
of your engine. Make sure you have the same distance with your
adapter/motor/flywheel and you should be fine.

Chris