EV Digest 4504

Topics covered in this issue include:

1) Re: New EM pictures
by "damon henry" <damonhenry@...>
2) Burn it out John...Don't burn it out!
by John Wayland <dat1200@...>
3) RE: Dymaxion, etc.
by Michael Hurley <mephit@...>
4) Re: MC EV drive Set ups / eff Re: Motor cycle for electric
by Mbachandz@...
5) Singer project car. Looks very light.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
6) Toyota agrees to stop crushing RAV4 EVs !!!
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
7) RE: Slow Launch
by "Don Cameron" <ev@...>
8) Re: Air conditioner etc
by Dave Cover <davecover@...>
9) Re: Tach sensor stuff
by Dave Cover <davecover@...>
10) A little OT ...Finally a bit of good news!
by Tom Watson <palomineo@...>
11) Re: how many amps?
by Ryan Stotts <stotts.ryan@...>
12) Re: Stupid questions
by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
13) Re: DC/DC
by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
14) Dave and Donald - SpamArrest
by "Don Cameron" <ev@...>
15) Re: ICCU Ultracap Breakthrough. Will this help with SCR controller
efficiency?
by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
16) Re: Slow Launch
by Ryan Stotts <stotts.ryan@...>
17) Re: New EM pictures
by "damon henry" <damonhenry@...>
18) Re: New EM pictures and a newbee question.
by "Alex Smith" <cdninoh@...>
19) Re: Air conditioner etc
by "Paul G." <paul-g@...>
20) Re: DC/DC
by "Paul G." <paul-g@...>
21) Re: Dymaxion, etc.
by David Dymaxion <david_dymaxion@...>
22) Re: New EM pictures and a newbee question.
by "damon henry" <damonhenry@...>
23) Re: Electric '59 MGA Roadster for Sale
by "Mark Hanson" <mhanson@...>

Actually 44 cells and 150lbs.

>From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
>Reply-To: ev@...
>To: <ev@...>
>Subject: Re: New EM pictures
>Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 22:59:04 -0700
>
>So 60 batteries about 200 pounds? 17 miles. Great. If you can do any
>Freeway that is great. The bike is so much cleaner now. Seems you have
>the chain figured out too. LR........
>
>
>>I snapped a few shots of my bike with the BB600's mounted and added them
>>to my webpage.
>>
>>http://home.comcast.net/~damonhenry/ebike.htm
>>
>>I am much happier with the way it looks with these batteries. The only
>>downside is that people rarely notice that it is electric now :-(
>>
>>damon
>>
>

Hello to All,

About the video of Seattle Electric Vehicle Association's '84 EVent, Ryan Stotts
wrote:

> http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/videos/'84%20SEVA%20Blue%20Meanie.MOV (32 megs)
>
> On this one, when Bill Clarke gets in the car, someone says "burn it
> out John". Is it Bill Clarke who then says "Don't burn it out..."?
> LOL!

Yes, that's Bill saying that. The other voice from the crowd that precipitated
Bill's
response "burn it out John", is from my best friend at that time, Dave. He and I
towed
the car up from Portland to that SEVA EVent with his nearly new, sparkling clean
Ford crew
cab pickup. When we pulled onto the scene, his slick truck towing his
immaculately
detailed trailer with the gleaming little blue Datsun brought forth an instant
crowd of
EVers and EV fans to check out the strangers who blew in unannounced from
Oregon. One guy,
assuming we had veered off course on our way to some kind of hotrod show & shine
thing,
told us we were at the wrong spot, as 'this' was an electric car EVent, not a
car club
show. At the time EVs were more typically cast away cars, usually unpopular
models, and
had lots of duct tape, bailing wire, and lots of batteries but very little spit
and
polish. I guess Blue Meanie was a little too showy to be an EV :-) We assured
them it
'was' an electric car, then off-loaded it. I did an immediate tire squealing
launch,
followed by a little stereo system display, which again attracted a small
crowd....seems
like EVs weren't supposed to act this way, and for that matter, neither should
EVers. Back
then, the average EVer was kind of an eco-nerd, typically 'not' into cars, more
into
rolling science projects, but with their heart and mind in the right spot,
environmentally
speaking. I was an anomaly. I loved cars, fast, tire smoking, eye catching, hard
accelerating, tight cornering performance cars. I was also into all things
electrical, was
totally into EVs, and shared the eco-nerds concerns over environmental issues.
Where these
guys wanted to demonstrate that EVs could handle an average person's daily
commuting
needs, I wanted to make sure they didn't leave this EVent thinking all EVs were
slow,
dull, and boring.

The purpose of the Long Distance Rally was to show the general public that EVs
could go
the distance...in fact, SEVA had a long, large banner flowing in the gentle
breeze that
read 'Electric Cars, we can go the Distance!' Because the contest was to see who
could go
the farthest on one charge, the route went around Lake Union (SEVA members,
please correct
me if I'm wrong about this) and had the EVs crawling about at hair raising
speeds up to a
blistering 35 mph! We'd pick up interested passengers, then make the approximate
2 mile
loop around the lake, then pull back into the parking area to discharge our
passengers and
pick up new ones, then repeat the procedure. Most all of the other EVers
participating
were focused on driving as sedately as possible and their EVs had lots of
batteries, like
1200 lbs. of golf car batteries. Even the small Renault Le Car conversions had
16 of them.
Most of the conversions had no back seat...replaced by batteries, and fun stuff
like
stereos, a nice interior, and mag wheels were none existent. OK...Steve Lough
was ahead of
his time with a computer setup in his Ion One EV.

I showed up with my Datsun, lowered, sway bars, American Racing four spoke mags,
gleaming
glossed up paint, a state of the art (for that era) sound system, tidy interior
(no
batteries visible anywhere), hi pro euro Cibe' headlights and euro issued front
and rear
lenses, and with count 'em, just 8 batteries at a whopping 48 volts. Surely,
with half the
number of batteries that the shorter distance EVs had, my car didn't stand a
chance for
the distance thing, right? The drive motor was pretty typical for that period,
an
aircraft starter-generator, a GE model 2CM77. This compound wound motor made my
1850 lb.
EV fly, even at just 48 volts, thanks to an aggressive 3 step contactor
controller. The
first speed paralleled the pack at 24 volts through a resistor, then 24 volts
straight,
then 48 volts (batteries all in series) straight...not too smooth, but a heavy
right foot
brought on the full 48 volts instantly and sent over 1000 amps into the motor
configured
to series-wound mode....tons of torque, instant rear tire ignition! Any wonder
why my wet
cells only lasted 6 months? To cruise though at 35 mph, the pack was back at 48V
and the
motor's shunt field was engaged. To slow down, 24V was selected in shunt mode,
so coming
off higher speeds at 48V mode would bring on strong regen...cool!

So here we were, trying to convince the general public that EVs were cool, hip,
and a good
alternative to the gas car, then we'd poke around like so many golf carts,
taking off from
a stop sign like we had an egg under our foot, driving as if the car wouldn't
get out of
its own way, etc., etc. I couldn't put up with that notion, and every time
someone would
ask 'How does this car do on acceleration? Will it do 40 mph?"...I'd floor the
damn thing,
smoke the tires, throw them back in the seat, and take off...screw that saving
energy
thing, these people had to know EVs could move! Needless to say, I caused quite
a bit of
disruption with my antics and got lots of scowls from the other EVers. The
general public
though, were all waiting in line for a ride in the little tire smoking EV, and
evidently
from that news cast the video came from, so were the TV reporters.

So there you have it, the background to the comments "burn it out
John"....."Don't burn it
out..."

Surprisingly, my little 'ol Datsun, even after all that tire spinning stuff,
managed 54
miles on one charge and was in the top 1/3 of the competitors that day. The '84
SEVA EV
Rally was the beginning of a long friendship with Steve Lough and others, though
at first
I don't think any of them knew what to do with me :-) My friend Dave had
Leukemia and some
time after, passed away. We had planned on that road trip being one of our last
fun EV
jaunts together, so it has a special place in my heart.

> I like that part at the end when your reeling out that extension cord
> out of where the fuel filler was and it switches back to that news
> anchor woman. The expression on her face is priceless. Her eyes are
> huge! I think that scene blew her mind. :)

Oh yes, the 'ol retractable charging cord. That was back in my more formative,
learning
years, before I really understood things like kilowatts, power consumption, and
the like.
That was taken from one of those retractable garage work lights, you know, the
round reel
that holds so many feet of 18 gauge power wire to run a 100 watt light bulb! I
'thought'
it was a nifty idea...too bad I didn't fully think it out. At just 18 gauge, you
can only
guess how hot it got trying to pass the needed amps for charging an EV...can you
say 'melt
down'? I especially like the cheesy two prong dime store plug I had on it. Oh
well, at least
I've gotten better at designing and building my EVs since then :-)

My apologies for the poor video quality on this one, but that's the way the
video tape
looks. It was a copy, of a copy, of a copy that someone who had a VCR (they were
still
gaining in popularity back in eary '84) recorded off that evening's Seattle area
evening
news. I received that tape ten years after that fun day, and was shocked that
such great
historical footage was captured. I think it's the only images I have of when
Blue Meanie
had four of its 8 golf car batteries under the hood, and had the aircraft
generator and all
that other 'advanced electrical stuff' in there ;-)


> http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/videos/'95%20Blue%20Meanie.MOV (65 megs)
> That's one of the best EV related movies I've ever seen. Thanks for
> uploading that one.

Thanks for the compliment. For those who haven't seen that one, it's actually
three
individual videos all combined. We plan on making them available as three
separate videos,
and, will make shorter (smaller file size) video clips of the better parts
available for
dial-up viewers, too.

See Ya....John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland

At 8:03 AM -0700 on 7/14/05, Don Cameron wrote:

>The teardrop shape is not necessarily the best aerodynamic shape for an
>automobile. You must take into consideration ground effects. You may want
>to pick up a couple of newer books on vehicle aerodynamics if you really
>want to make it aerodynamic.

Also, side-wind aerodynamics, and multi-direction gusts.
--


Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."

"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in
sort of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand
naked women screaming and throwing little pickles
at you?"

"..No."

"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
- Real Genius

In a message dated 7/14/2005 7:30:04 A.M. Mountain Standard Time,
jerry5335@... writes:

> Hey rich, do you have BLDC motors and controllers
> that would do nicely
> on a MC?

I'd love a good, cost effective, regen, eff BLDC
motor/controller for the Freedom EV!!! It would
increase my range by 10-25% depending on use,
terrain!!



Jerry,
What about a BLDC from UQM for your application? Biggest problem at first
glance is the voltage requirements. Of course cost in small quantities is
unknown and they want to sell only to major OEM type integrators (e.g. Eaton).
_http://www.uqm.com/products/specsheet.html_
(http://www.uqm.com/products/specsheet.html)

Look Under Vehicle Drive Systems
MPM30 Motor/Generator (regen) 30 kW (46 hp) 250-400 VDC 8000 rpm 140 N•m
(103 lbf•ft)

Mike Bachand
DEVC

This car would make a great EV. LR.........In Oakland CA
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4561012932&categor\
y=6314&ssPageName=WDVW&rd=1
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
bassoon@...
415-821-3519

From: RemyC <electrifyingtimes@...>
Subject: Toyota agrees to stop crushing RAV4 EVs !!!

From:
Josh Landess
joshl1@ mail.com

Big news from DontCrush.com


Wed, 13 Jul 2005
Marc Geller marc@ dybbuk.com wrote:

Greetings Dontcrush.com supporters!

Once again, we have such amazing news!!! But first, we'd like to thank
Toyota of Huntington Beach for their hospitality- they even played music for
us, and held up signs of their own as we protested in front of their
building!!!

And, it seems we've had the desired effect! Drumroll.

Toyota has agreed to stop crushing salable, useable RAV4 EVs!!!! With
several hundred cars left out there, this is dontcrush.com's biggest win
yet, and we applaud Toyota's choice to be responsive to their customers!!!

During the course of a 2-hour meeting with Toyota today, the dontcrush.com
negotiating team worked out the following points, which will be finalized in
writing over the next few weeks:

No more usable cars will be crushed- the definition of "usable" is still to
be worked out.

Current lessees shall have the option to continually renew their leases as
long as the vehicle is usable, as defined by Toyota and the consumer.

Toyota will re-examine their policy of not selling fleet RAVs and attempt to
give current lessees the option to purchase their vehicles outright.

Toyota will create a process by which RAV4 EVs deemed not salable or usable
will be dismantled for parts to be used by the remaining vehicles.

Vehicles neither re-leased nor purchased will continue to be used; they will
be sold to the public, used in the Toyota corporate fleet or made available
for use by non-profit organizations.

The specifics of these points will continue to be worked out by
dontcrush.com, but this is a huge victory!!! We'd like to thank everyone
involved in supporting us through writing letters, providing statements,
donations etc. Until these steps are finalized and put in writing, however,
it's important that we continue our activity and show Toyota that we indeed
want to buy their products. To that end, we will be at Power Toyota of
Cerritos on Saturday, July 16, 2005, from 1-3pm:

Power Toyota Cerritos
(562) 860-6561
(714) 828-5960
18700 Studebaker Rd
Cerritos, CA 90703

Directions

Come join us in our ongoing victory- we look forward to seeing you there,
and will continue to keep you posted!

The dontcrush.com team

Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
bassoon@...
415-821-3519

Motor and controller are rated to 78kW and 100kw respectively.

The key here is that from 0-2500 RPM the voltage maybe sags to 310volts, but
the amperage is slowly rising from 0 up to 250 amps, so there is no way the
controller or motor is at its max power during this slow rise.


Victoria, BC, Canada

See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...] On
Behalf Of Christopher Zach
Sent: July 14, 2005 8:14 AM
To: ev@...
Subject: Re: Slow Launch

Might be life with vector control AC motors. I noticed that the Prizm tends
to be a bit slow up to 10mph; it's certainly not pulling it's max of 50kw
(200a@300v). Once you get beyond that though it accelerates quickly and
keeps on rocking up to about 100mph.

This is a single speed car that weighs a bit more than your car. That said,
is your motor and controller rated to 50+kw? (250amps at what
voltage?)

Chris


Don Cameron wrote:
> I start off in second gear (an overall ratio of about 8:1) and notice
> when I stomp on the throttle, the car does not have a quick launch but
> gently tapers up the acceleration. Once it reaches 2500 RPM, the
> acceleration is quick, but off the line it is unexpectedly slow.
>
> I notice on the ammeter that at launch it is only taking in 50-80
> amps, then as the RPMS rise to 2500 rpm, the amps rise to the maximum
> current of 250 amps.

--- cowtown@... wrote:
>
> But wouldn't it be easier to get a 1-1/2 to 2hp treadmill motor from Burden or
> AmSci&Surplus? These are usually spec'd for 100-120vdc, so you could run it
> directly from the pack, connect it to all 3 units (power steering and brakes,
> A/C), and forgo complicated controls except an off circuit to cut power when
> none of the 3 are in use. Don't know the mechanical setup, but maybe a
> serpentine belt or even a chain and gears?
>

Ok, I'm on board with not using an alternator and I have a nice new treadmill
motor sitting in my
basement. Now how do I control the motor? I will have a high voltage traction
pack, over 300
volts. And I'd like to be able to vary the speed of the motor, slower on the
highway, faster at
slow speeds for the power steering.

Dave Cover

--- Nick Viera <jeepev@...> wrote:
>
> Another thing I was looking for was a ring magnet like the kind used
> with the speed sensor Otmar sells. It seems like that would work just as
> good (it is a 4-pole magnet, right?), but again I can't seem to find
> them sold anywhere?
>

How about some epoxy and heat shrink? If you have a nice clean section of the
shaft, epoxy two or
four button magnets evenly around the shaft and then use a small section of
heatshrink as a cover.
Yes/No?

Dave Cover

Hi all
I thought this was excellent news!

It might be usefull if we all sent some thank you
emails to Toyota for listening to reason! Lets try and
make them feel really good about their decision! Send
to corporate president Jim Press ...
jim_press@...
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 18:53:09 -0700
From: Marc Geller <marc@...>
Subject: Big news from DontCrush.com

Greetings Dontcrush.com supporters!

Once again, we have such amazing news!!! But first,
we’d like to thank Toyota of Huntington Beach for
their hospitality- they even played music for us, and
held up signs of their own as we protested in front of
their building!!!

And, it seems we’ve had the desired effect! Drumroll…

Toyota has agreed to stop crushing salable, useable
RAV4 EVs!!!! With several hundred cars left out there,
this is dontcrush.com’s biggest win yet, and we
applaud Toyota’s choice to be responsive to their
customers!!!

During the course of a 2-hour meeting with Toyota
today, the dontcrush.com negotiating team worked out
the following points, which will be finalized in
writing over the next few weeks:

No more usable cars will be crushed- the definition of
“usable” is still to be worked out. Current lessees
shall have the option to continually renew their
leases as long as the vehicle is usable, as defined by
Toyota and the consumer.

Toyota will re-examine their policy of not selling
fleet RAVs and attempt to give current lessees the
option to purchase their vehicles
outright.

Toyota will create a process by which RAV4 EVs deemed
not salable or usable will be dismantled for parts to
be used by the remaining vehicles.
Vehicles neither re-leased nor purchased will continue
to be used; they will be sold to the public, used in
the Toyota corporate fleet or made available for use
by non-profit organizations.

The specifics of these points will continue to be
worked out by dontcrush.com, but this is a huge
victory!!! We’d like to thank everyone involved in
supporting us through writing letters, providing
statements, donations etc. Until these steps are
finalized and put in writing, however, it’s important
that we continue our activity and show Toyota that we
indeed want to buy their products. To that end,
we will be at Power Toyota of Cerritos on Saturday,
July 16, 2005, from 1-3pm:

Power Toyota Cerritos
(562) 860-6561
(714) 828-5960
18700 Studebaker Rd
Cerritos, CA 90703

Come join us in our ongoing victory- we look forward
to seeing you there, and will continue to keep you
posted!

The dontcrush.com team

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

Iron Mountain Films wrote:

> How many amps at 120 volts can a stock adc 8" motor take?

No problem with the amps, just over ~170 volts the motor might start
arcing internally. You can set the Zilla to limit the motor to that.


>Does voltage sag from batteries jack up the amperage that a motor sees?

I'd imagine when the batteries start sagging, so does the power they
are putting out.

>I am trying to choose a new controller and am leaning toward a 1K zilla LV.

Good choice.

Is this controller overkill?

Not at all.


> On my next battery purchase I want to go to 136 volts 17) x 8v. and I am
wondering where I would set the amps limit.

Since you are using flooded lead acid batteries, you might need to set
the motor amps in the Zilla to 400 amps. With AGM's.. you could give
the motor full amps..


> Currently I have trouble just getting to freeway speeds I pull 300 350 battery
>amps sometimes less trying to accelerate.

I'd say it's a combination of the 96v pack and the wounded Curtis.


>Will a Zilla change that or are the batteries the limiting factor?

The Zilla will help a lot. The higher voltage pack(96->132) will help
a lot. The more voltage the better. The Zilla also gives you a lot
of room to grow and has a lot of potential. Not to mention being
water cooled, makes it very reliable.

Lee Hart wrote:
>> Detroit has proven to be amazingly adept at building cheap motors
>> that quickly wear out, and are expensive and difficult to fix.
>> It is common for one or more of them to fail before the ICE needs
>> rebuilding. So, my gloomy side says they will find a way to make
>> electric motors just as unreliable and expensive to fix.

Ryan Stotts wrote:
> It's unreal the ICE can last as long as they do all things
> considered...
>
> When I look at the Electric Ranger motor I think, could they have made
> it any more bizarre and proprietary? At least on the outside anyways.
> Very non standard and specialized. Maybe it's all smoke and mirrors?

I think it is an auto company mindset. In engineering, we call it NIH
(Not Invented Here) syndrome. Most large companies get this disease
sooner or later. It means they think that because they are an expert at
one thing, they are therefore experts at everything. So they ignore all
other technologies from outside their company as inferior and backwards.

Suppose there is a company building electric motors. They've been doing
it forever, and have produced untold millions of motors. They are a
technology leader in their industry, and their products are widely known
to be affordable, reliable, and last for years of continuous operation.
Their engineers have been tweaking their designs for so long that they
have them just about perfect; when a new application comes along, they
can quickly and accurately predict what changes to make to suit it.

Now, an automaker comes up with a need for such a motor. They buy one of
these company's motors for evaluation. The auto engineers are used to
seeing cheap automotive-grade motors, that only need to work for a few
hours (100,000 miles of driving at 50 mph average is only 2000 hours =
12 weeks, and few electric motors in a car run continuously). They laugh
at the design. "Look at the size of those bearings -- they are way too
big! And why all these extra bits of insulation? A waste of money!
What's the cooling for? We don't need that! Look, they glued the
windings in place; what a waste! How can this motor company survive with
such overbuilt junk!"

And so, being ignorant of WHY the commercial motor was built that way,
they proceed to design their own motor. It comes out looking lumpy and
crude, and amateurish. But to them, it's beautiful and perfect, because
it's their design. That's NIH at work.

So, it's not some nefarious plot to deliberately build inferior motors
to enhance service revenue. They build poor motors because they don't
know any better, and won't learn (except the hard way, from many years
of consequences).
--
Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has! -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

Nick Viera wrote:
> keep your DC/DC converter running all the time if you can...
> so you can avoid having a weak 12-volt system that you always
> have to worry about.

Your present ICE's 12-volt system is weak; its voltage wanders all over
the place depending on load and engine speed. Do you worry about it?

None of the loads need a precise 12 volts. They are all designed to
expect and allow for considerable voltage variations.

John Wayland is going to write:
> But with a huge, powerful DC/DC you can have bright lights, fast
> wipers, and powerful stereos. The 12v system is rock solid, unlike
> the feeble wimpy antiquated system in normal cars. EVs can be
> vastly better than ICEs!

And he's right; you can choose to make your EV better than an ICE. But
this is a "want", not a "need". You're fixing a "problem" that most
people do not recognize as one.

Ryan Stotts wrote:
> What if you did away with the 12V accessory battery and only ran the
> DC/DC to power your 12V accessories?

You can do this. You'll need a DC/DC powerful enough to handle the peak
current for headlight inrush and motor starting without the voltage
sagging so low that the clock or radio loses its data. The peak current
is often 5-10 times the normal current -- so if you need 20 amps
continuous, you may need a 100 amp DC/DC to handle the peaks.

You can reduce this overkill by using a very large filter capacitor in
place of the battery. It will take something in the *farads* range, not
microfarads. Huge electrolytics, or the supercapacitors now becoming
available could be a good candidate for this.
--
Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has! -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

Everytime I post to the EV Mailing list I get a email to my account from
"Dave" and or "Donald" about registering for their spam arrest.

Please turn this off - it is just another form of spam - it is also abuse of
my private email address.

thanks
Don

toltec wrote:
> well, the analogies are all fine and good, and they provide a
> generalized overview of the FUNCTION the components are providing,
> but I guess the problem for me is that they don't seem explicit
> enough about the actual electron movements to have "locked it in"
> for me, so to speak, etc...

A capacitor consists of two electrical conductors, with an insulator
between them. Typically, there are two very thin, very large area foil
plates, with a very thin insulating material between them.

When you feed current in one plate and out the other, the electrons
cannot get thru the insulator. They "pile up" on one plate, and the
other develops a matching set of "holes" where an electron would
normally be. The electrons and holes attract each other (opposite
charges attract), so they all wind up facing each other on each side of
the insulator, like opposing armies.

The external circuit needs to do work to force electrons into this
situation. Mechanically, it's like compressing a spring to force them
in.
Once charged, if you provide a path for the current to flow, the
electrons will rush to go thru this path to reach the holes on the other
side. Now the capacitor is *supplying* current. If the insulator between
plates is perfect and there resistance of the plates themselves was
zero, the capacitor would lose no energy; you'd get back every bit that
you put in. In practice, we can come close but never get it all.

Is that helpful? If not, just get any textbook on the subject, and you
can learn all you want on capacitors.
--
Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has! -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

Don Cameron wrote:

> I start off in second gear

Launch it in first and see how it takes off! Give it a combo full
throttle / clutch release.. ;)

Or if you feel like breaking something, from a standing still, take it
up to about 5 or 6 thousand rpm and dump the clutch and floor it at
the same time and see how it launches with a little momentum behind
it... :)


Or crank your voltage/amps limits to the max...

Thanks for the feedback, it's been a lot of fun and I've actually had many
battery configurations on this bike. My biggest limitation right now is
actually my controller. It's only a 48v controller and I am cheating that
as much as I can by slipping in 4 extra cells bringing me up to ~53v
nominal. The controller protects itself by not turning on if it sees more
than 60v and after a full charge my pack eventually settles down to around
58v. If I want to immediately take off after a full charge I have to bleed
some of the surface voltage off using a lightbulb before my controller will
turn on. If I had a 72v controller I would probably add at least 10 more
cells.

Believe me, noone has found more creative ways of mounting more batteries on
the bike than me, but to date this is my favorite configuration. Also the
gas tank is not just wasted space. I cut the bottom out and I have a Hawker
under there running my 12v systems as well as some relays and fuses. I have
more goodies slated to go under there as well. I like the look of the tank,
and am pretty determined to leave that piece as is.

I was out for a ride on the 4th of July scouting for places to launch my
canoe. I was sitting at a light waiting to turn left when I overheard a
fireworks stand sign waiver talking to his buddy on his walkie talkie. The
conversation went something like this.

"...I don't know, it has a gas tank, but it's got no exhaust pipes... it
sure is quiet."

I wasn't in a position to pull over and do a little show and tell, but it
made me grin...

damon

>From: Rush <Rush@...>
>To: damonhenry@...
>Subject: Re: New EM pictures
>Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 09:15:26 -0700
>
>Damon,
>
>Great project, but it looks like you could get some more batteries in the
>existing 'empty' spaces you have. It also looks like you are using an
>existing battery box and therefore are locked into a predefined space for
>your batteries. Don't make the container define your battery area.
>
>This is just a suggestion, but you could remove the gas tank and also the
>battery box below it and start looking at the empty space in a new way. All
>the cells don't have to line up perfectly, you can make a battery holder
>that will maximize the space you have. You might have to step some of them
>up and down and around the support tubes, but the space gained might be
>worth the voltage/amp gain. Some of the battery interconnects might have
>to be individually done, but you might be able to almost double the amount
>of bats in the forward area.
>
>Hope this helps,
>
>Rush
>Tucson AZ
>www.ironandwood.org
>
>

Hi Guys.
Just joined at the advice of Jerry Dycus as I am in the process of building
(well, gathereing the components and doing the design work) an electric
motorcycle.
It is to be a 'feet forward', low slung, semi-enclosed machine. While I am
currently designing the machine to accomodate 5 12volt flooded batteries,
the design would be much nicer with smaller batteries.
I've done a good bit of surfing but have been unable to find the BB600's you
have mentioned. Any leads?
Alex Smith
3 wheeled vehicle enthusiast.
Glider Pilot.
Sail boat enthusiast.
EV's fit right in there, don't they?




>From: "damon henry" <damonhenry@...>
>Reply-To: ev@...
>To: ev@...
>Subject: Re: New EM pictures
>Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:22:09 +0000
>
>Actually 44 cells and 150lbs.
>
>>From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
>>Reply-To: ev@...
>>To: <ev@...>
>>Subject: Re: New EM pictures
>>Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 22:59:04 -0700
>>
>>So 60 batteries about 200 pounds? 17 miles. Great. If you can do any
>>Freeway that is great. The bike is so much cleaner now. Seems you have
>>the chain figured out too. LR........
>>
>>
>>>I snapped a few shots of my bike with the BB600's mounted and added them
>>>to my webpage.
>>>
>>>http://home.comcast.net/~damonhenry/ebike.htm
>>>
>>>I am much happier with the way it looks with these batteries. The only
>>>downside is that people rarely notice that it is electric now :-(
>>>
>>>damon
>>>
>>
>

On Jul 13, 2005, at 8:54 PM, James Massey wrote:

> And then whilst you are stopped, the alternator is drawing 4 amps into
> the field, negating any gains?
>
> Or did you do something / select a particular alternator that prevents
> this from occurring?
>

That was the case with my old Dodge, but then it had a mechanical
regulator. I know a 1 wire alternator can't do that because they work
with only a single wire from alternator to the battery positive. I'm
sure there are other answers in between those extremes.

Paul "neon" G.

On Jul 13, 2005, at 11:03 PM, Ryan Stotts wrote:

> What if you did away with the 12V accessory battery and only ran the
> DC/DC to power your 12V accessories?
>

My EV buggy is that way. It works fine except that its a single point
failure issue. If that Todd fails or I run the pack into the gutter
*everything* shuts down. No lights, no main contactor, nothing.

Paul

Obviously I have some love for the Dymaxion car!

I wonder if it was really only 1000 lbs?

A caution I would have is how stable was it for high speed driving?
Many cars have a bit of a wedge shape, and/or spoilers, to fight rear
end lift.

Why choose an MG or Triumph front end? Those are orphan cars you
haven't been able to buy for many years.

An S10 Blazer could make a good starting point, the running gear
attaches to the frame. You could even leave the dash, steering,
controls, and front seats. The strong frame rails would make good
attachment points for the 3rd wheel. With the strength of the truck
frame you could likely have 50+% weight in batteries.

The kit car world has a few 3 wheelers, that might make a really good
starting point.

Here's a neat one:

<http://www.vigillante.com>

Last random thought: I've wondered if 3 wheel steering could tame the
oversteering tendencies of a 1F2R arrangement. Another related
thought would be to have the battery pack shift to the inside of the
turn to help balance the car.

--- Stu or Jan <stu@...> wrote:
> I am 'building' a 2F1R hybrid in my imagination.
>
> Batteries up front. 75/25 ratio.
>
> A front end from a Triumph or an MG donor. Make/years/sources?
>
> A swing axle from a motorcycle rear. No rear mechanical brake.
> Regen
> braking. How to fit wheel and pulleys? Suggestions for a donor
> rear?
>
> A 10Kw to 15KW engine with variable pulleys to one side of the rear
> wheel.
>
> A 10KW motor with variable pulleys to the other side of the rear
> wheel.
>
> Source of pulleys?
>
> Weight of engine/motor beyond rear for traction and for exhaust.
>
> A roll cage frame. Tear drop aero. Light weight covering using
> flat panels
> like a stealth bomber. Suggestions as to design and tubing
> dimensions.
> Suggestions of how to enter/exit.
>
> DC motor driven A/C.
>
> Anyone else interested in this project? I sure would enjoy some
> company.
> Car to be built in Fort Pierce, FL.
>
> BTW Buckmister Fuller's Dymaxion (2F1R) weighed 1,000 pounds and it
> carried
> 10 passengers. Built in 1933!
>
> "For those that haven't heard of it, the Dymaxion Car was a
> teardrop-shaped
> (least air resistance), 3-wheeled, rear-wheel (single) steering, 20
> foot
> long, Aluminum bodied auto, designed by Buckminster Fuller in 1933
> to
> achieve maximum output and service with minimum material input. It
> was
> about 6 feet tall (kinda like a big van), seated the driver and 10
> passengers, weighed less than 1000 lbs., went 120 miles/hr on a 90
> horsepower engine, and got between 30-50 miles to the gallon of
> gas. Fuller
> referred to it as the "Dymaxion Car", "Dymaxion Vehicle", and
> "Omni-Medium
> Transport" since it was ultimately intended to go by land, water,
> or sky.
> Only three were ever built."
>
> Can we do better today?
>
> BoyntonStu




__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

This list is as good a place as I know of to find them. They are usually
obtained as military surplus, and thanks to the efforts of one of our list
members earlier this year some of us got in on a buy stemming from a surplus
auction.

Unfortunately for you all of us who got in on this buy are just starting to
use our batteries and decididng whether they really fit the application we
were hoping to use them for. Mine are working out great for me, but I
suspect others will find that they don't, and be offering them for sale in
the future.

Since you are still in the design stage I would suggest looking at the sizes
of some of the more commonly used batteries and make sure you build in a
space that will accomodate as many of these choices as is practical. We can
certainly get you dimensions. With the BB600 the only dimension you really
need to worry about is the height which is approx. 9 1/4 inches, but they do
require occasional watering so you will need easy access to the tops of
them. Also they are flooded so they need to be used in a vertical position.

These people used to sell them, but it's been well over a year since I last
checked with them. Still you can see a photo and the dimensions.

http://www.sg-photo.com/nicad_batteries.htm

damon

>From: "Alex Smith" <cdninoh@...>
>Reply-To: ev@...
>To: ev@...
>Subject: Re: New EM pictures and a newbee question.
>Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:33:21 +0000
>
>Hi Guys.
>Just joined at the advice of Jerry Dycus as I am in the process of building
>(well, gathereing the components and doing the design work) an electric
>motorcycle.
>It is to be a 'feet forward', low slung, semi-enclosed machine. While I am
>currently designing the machine to accomodate 5 12volt flooded batteries,
>the design would be much nicer with smaller batteries.
>I've done a good bit of surfing but have been unable to find the BB600's
>you have mentioned. Any leads?
>Alex Smith
>3 wheeled vehicle enthusiast.
>Glider Pilot.
>Sail boat enthusiast.
>EV's fit right in there, don't they?
>
>
>
>
>>From: "damon henry" <damonhenry@...>
>>Reply-To: ev@...
>>To: ev@...
>>Subject: Re: New EM pictures
>>Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:22:09 +0000
>>
>>Actually 44 cells and 150lbs.
>>
>>>From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
>>>Reply-To: ev@...
>>>To: <ev@...>
>>>Subject: Re: New EM pictures
>>>Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 22:59:04 -0700
>>>
>>>So 60 batteries about 200 pounds? 17 miles. Great. If you can do any
>>>Freeway that is great. The bike is so much cleaner now. Seems you have
>>>the chain figured out too. LR........
>>>
>>>
>>>>I snapped a few shots of my bike with the BB600's mounted and added them
>>>>to my webpage.
>>>>
>>>>http://home.comcast.net/~damonhenry/ebike.htm
>>>>
>>>>I am much happier with the way it looks with these batteries. The only
>>>>downside is that people rarely notice that it is electric now :-(
>>>>
>>>>damon
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

That's interesting. What does it weigh? My Metro also had 14ea 6Ver's and
got 30mpc instead of Bob's 24mpc. The finish weight of the Metro was 2400
lbs and start weight was 1600lbs. Bob was a neat guy and got me started in
EV reporting and I enjoyed visiting Inverness in May and Point Reyes
National seashore, the windiest place on the coast, great for windmills.
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Grannes, Dean" <dean.grannes@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 1:27 PM
Subject: FW: Electric '59 MGA Roadster for Sale


> Folks,
>
> I'm going to start by forwarding the message that started it all.
> Please read my comments below for the current status:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Wing
> Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 8:57 PM
> To: ev@...
> Subject: Electric '59 MGA Roadster for Sale
>
> Hi,
>
> Only Known Electric '59 MGA Roadster in US or UK is for sale by owner.
>
> I have had my fun but it is time to sell it to someone younger. A buyer
> from the greater San Francisco Bay area or Sacramento, Calif. would have
> qualified service help available if needed. Since 1972 it has been my
> test
> bed for various motor, controller, charger and battery configurations.
>
> Present equipment is a Prestolite 4001 motor, Zapi H2 400 Amp controller
> in
> E-pump mode, (no contactor required), 20-12 VDC Optima deep-cycle
> batteries
> in buddy pairs at 120 VDC, E-Meter, beta-test Zivan 'Smoother' battery
> equalizer (first one in USA on the road), onboard beta-test Russco 120
> Vac
> and Zivan NG3 240 Vac chargers. Front axle tow bar is included.
>
> Won Classic Car Award at 1996 Stanford Electric Auto Assoc Rally.
> Awarded
> Most Technologically Innovative MG at the MG owner's Club (all ICEs
> except
> for two EVs) Jack London Square, Oakland CA 1998.
>
> New fire engine red paint 4 years ago, all body panels removed nd
> painted
> separatelyl It has not been driven in the rain. It is a British car
> and
> the body panels rust out if the mud sticks in the cracks. Chrome, paint,
> top and upholstery in great shape. Low rolling resistance tires.
>
> Phone and come and drive it. Will part it out after 4 months if it has
> not
> sold as is.
>
> Sale price $8,750. Extra charge of $800.each for Zivan Smoother or
> either
> second charger.
>
> This is a sporty one-of-a-kind EV and great fun to drive.
>
>
>
> Bob Wing
> ***********
>
> As you probably know (or have guessed), I purchased "Fire Chief" from
> Bob back in 1999, shortly after this email went out. (Bob passed away a
> few years later.) I purchased both the Smoother (not working) and the
> second charger, so paid a total of $10,350, or thereabouts. Since then,
> the batteries have been replaced with yellow-tops, Mark II Rudman Regs
> have been added, and the motor was completely rewound after it
> overheated. The car has been to several shows around the Bay Area,
> including a few more MG shows (it always wins Technologically Innovative
> award), Hot August Niles in Fremont, and Newark Days in Newark. It
> always attracts attention. It is a lot of fun to drive, and this is
> perfect weather for it.
>
> However, I currently don't drive it much. I drive it to car shows and
> occasionally around town. Though the batteries don't have many cycles
> on them, the pack is several years old and somewhat out of balance, so
> it doesn't have the range to get me to work (19 miles of mixed freeway
> and stop-and-go), and since I spend most of my off-time with my wife and
> son, a two-seater is not so practical for us. Therefore, I reluctantly
> decided to sell the car to someone who has more time and use for it.
>
> I would like to get close to my original $10k back for this car. It
> comes with lots of extras. Besides the tow bar, there are several spare
> tires/wheels (wire spoke wheels) old battery racks, extra seat cover
> material, miscellaneous electronics. It comes with a 110V Russco
> charger and a 220V Zivan NG3. I'll also throw in a Zivan K2 that I
> purchased separately. The Smoother is currently with Lee Hart for
> analysis, but is not working.
>
> This car has a lot of history. It was converted in 1973 by Bob Wing. I
> have lots of documentation. He kept meticulous records of the
> conversion process and modifications he made.
>
> I would like to sell this to someone (preferably in the Bay Area or
> northern California) who will treat the car well, and perhaps continue
> to show it. This car is a legacy of an EV pioneer, and I want this
> legacy to continue.
>
> Photos and descriptions can be found at:
> http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/bobwing.html
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/114.html
> http://www.nbeaa.org/wing/bob_wing_-_ev_pioneer.htm
>