EV Digest 6656

Topics covered in this issue include:

1) Re: Regen is a bit better than you think
by john fisher <john@...>
2) Re: "largish" brushless motors available
by "Kaido Kert" <kaidokert@...>
3) Re: HOW TO DRIVE AN EV FOR MAXIMUM RANGE. Re: EVLN(Tofu maker Toya
pulses & glides his hybrid to nenpimania)
by Danny Miller <dannym@...>
4) Re: HOW TO DRIVE AN EV FOR MAXIMUM RANGE. Re: EVLN(Tofu maker Toya pulses
& glides his hybrid to nenpimania)
by Jeff Mccabe <jeff.mccabe@...>
5) Re: EVLN(Kind to Man technology: 3Wheel Mahindra E-Bijlees)-long
by "peekay" <pksharmakolkata@...>
6) Re: C,mm,n (common) open source car project by Dutch universities
by "peekay" <pksharmakolkata@...>
7) RE: Zener reg question
by Cor van de Water <CWater@...>
8) Re: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <evpost@...>
9) Re: Kokam LiPoly Batts
by "Peter VanDerWal" <evdl@...>
10) Re: Regen wiring idea/question
by "Peter VanDerWal" <evdl@...>
11) Re: Regen is a bit better than you think (was: EV APU (genset)
emissions & FE)
by "Peter VanDerWal" <evdl@...>
12) Re: Kokam LiPoly Batts
by Marcin Ciosek <marcin.ciosek@...>
13) Re: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by john fisher <john@...>
14) RE: Sprint/Metro Drivetrain losses
by "Roger Stockton" <rstockton@...>
15) RE: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by Dave Cover <davecover@...>
16) Re: Prius Hackers needed
by Danny Miller <dannym@...>
17) Re: HOW TO DRIVE AN EV FOR MAXIMUM RANGE. Re: EVLN(Tofu maker Toya pulses
& glides his hybrid to nenpimania)
by "mike young" <myoung@...>

thanks Bill and Tom, I notice that most of the E-bike kits use regen.
I haven't driven in much "light traffic" the last few years, and I moved out of
LA. But point taken.

Tom Watson wrote:
> Hi
> on my electric moped I found ways to increase my use of regen ...
> Tom
> -----------<<<>>>-----------
> You get a bit more than you would first think from regen.
>
> ...
> On the highway, or in light traffic that allows you to drive
> efficiently without using the brakes, regen makes no difference. It
> is also expensive to add to a DC drive system. It is generally much
> cheaper to simply add another battery or two.
>
> Bill Dube'
>
>
>
>

bytheway, i just watched a video clip of Tesla VP being filmed close
up, the interesting new bit was that its motor was out on the display
and filmed close up
http://www.dannyscontentment.net/dannys_contentment/2007/04/the_tesla_part_.html
( the motor shot is 1:10 into the video )

It looks really really small, for the power it must output. And its an
induction AC motor. I wonder what the kg/KW ratio of this one would
be.
Also, what a chinese copy would cost ? ;)

-kert

On 4/11/07, Kaido Kert <kaidokert@...> wrote:
> There are ones with hall sensors available, and adding three sensors
> to an existing motor shaft does not break the bank either. Sensored
> design should be better anyway for better low-speed control and
> torque.
> BTW, most of the RC ESCs or controllers drive the motors using
> trapezoidal commutation, but there are some available that drive with
> sine wave which makes for even better efficiency , lower losses in
> motor and thus lower heating, and also makes the torque smoother (
> less or no "cogging" )
>
> -kert
>
> On 4/11/07, Peter Gabrielsson <peter.gabrielsson@...> wrote:
> > Don't forget that RC airplane brushless controllers are usually
> > sensorless designs. In order to find the rotor position they will jerk
> > the motor back and forth for a few seconds before starting up. This is
> > obviously not very desirable in a car.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 4/11/07, Kaido Kert <kaidokert@...> wrote:
> > > hey,
> > >
> > > i stumbled on these: RC BLDC motor makers have scaled their offerings
> > > up increasingly, and now you can get a complete 15KW system from them.
> > > for example Hacker A200 motor with a MasterSpin 300 controller would
> > > cost around $1600
> > > With a pair of those, you could move a light car.
> > > There are other alternatives ( Plettenburg has Predator 37/06 in the
> > > same power range )
> > >
> > > So for a $3200, you'd be running what is essentially a 30KW AC system ( as
> > > BLDC motors differ from PMAC motors only in winding distributions on
> > > stator )
> > > There would be quite a lot of mechanical work though, as the motors
> > > are intended to be mounted on RC airplanes. They are very lightweight
> > > for their available max power, however.
> > > Now, if the demand is there, i believe those same manufacturers would
> > > be willing to ship a line of motors and controllers modified for EV
> > > apps.
> > >
> > > anyone interested ?
> > >
> > > -kert
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > www.electric-lemon.com
> >
> >
>

It sounds like you're referring to the "bump and glide" technique the
Prius hackers rave about. I am not wholly convinced it is indeed for
real but keep an open mind. However, assuming it is, it's due to a
quirk in the way their ICE works.

For an EV, the vehicle needs X kwh/mi to counter aero and wheel drag to
maintain a certain speed. Allowing it to coast down, then speed up,
should not have any efficiency gain. This means half the time the motor
puts out 0 KW and the other half 2*X KW. Unless you put it in neutral,
the tranny and motor turning losses still apply.

Motor losses typically are not linear so running it at twice the power
for half the time is worse off efficiency wise. The only possible
savings are in disconnecting the transmission by putting it in Neutral.

Danny

robert mat wrote:

>This post could be better titled, perhaps as: HOW TO DRIVE AN EV FOR MAXIMUM
RANGE.
>
>If you've been watching an ammeter carefully, you can see how its possible to
reduce amps by ~80% at little cost in speed, by coasting, once the EV has gone
up to speed (assuming no regen brakes. My motor is an Advanced 9 inch.)
>
>Its a sobering lesson for gasoline drivers: Seems that driving in the "normal"
way is burning up gasoline needlessly. Is there a way to have an ammeter-like
gauge for gasoline cars?
>
>Rob Matthies
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>bruce parmenter <ev_list_editor@...> wrote: EVLN(Tofu maker Toya pulses &
glides his hybrid to nenpimania)
>[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
>informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
>--- {EVangel}
>http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/04/05/business/sxhybrid.php
>Mileage maniacs push limits of hybrids
>By Terje Langeland Bloomberg News April 5, 2007
>
>TOKYO: Toyota Motor says its Prius gasoline-electric hybrid car
>can get about 55 miles to the gallon, making it one of the most
>fuel-efficient cars on the road. That is not good enough for
>Takashi Toya.
>
>Toya, a 56-year-old manager for a tofu maker in central Japan,
>puts special tires on his Prius, tapes plastic and cardboard over
>the engine and blocks the grill with foam rubber. He drives
>without shoes and hacks into his car's computer - all in the
>pursuit of maximum distance with minimum gasoline.
>
>Toya is one of about 100 nenpimania, Japanese for "mileage
>maniacs," or hybrid owners who compete against each other to
>squeeze as much as 115 miles per gallon out of their cars. In a
>country where gasoline costs more than $4 a gallon, at least $1
>more than the average U.S. price, enthusiasts tweak their cars
>and hone driving techniques to cut fuel bills and gain bragging
>rights.
>
>"My wife thinks I've joined some strange secret society," Toya
>said last January at a nenpimania gathering in Nagoya in central
>Japan.
>
>Mileage maniacs are not alone in pushing the limits of hybrid
>vehicles. As the U.S. automakers General Motors and Ford Motor
>race to introduce their own models, first rolled out by Japanese
>companies in 1997, engineers at Toyota and Honda Motor are trying
>to increase hybrid performance to maintain their advantage.
>[...]
>Hybrids combine a conventional gasoline engine with an electric
>motor. The electric motor powers the vehicle at low speeds, and
>the gasoline engine kicks in as the car accelerates. The motor
>uses the motion of the wheels to recharge the batteries.
>[...]
>While the nenpimania may take things to extremes, there is a long
>history of car owners tinkering with their machines to improve
>gas mileage.
>
>"The Gas Mileage Bible" (Infinity Publishing, 2006) promises to
>help drivers improve fuel efficiency by more than 30 percent. It
>is the latest in a line of books stretching back to at least
>1942, when an American author named Lee Richter published a
>64-page pamphlet on increasing tire and gas mileage to help save
>resources for the U.S. war effort.
>
>Since the 1997 release of the Prius, the first mass-market
>hybrid, owners in Japan and elsewhere have fiddled with their
>cars to raise mileage and shared tips, including the best driving
>techniques, over the Internet. The mileage maniacs strive to
>perfect what they call the "pulse and glide" driving method.
>
>On a chilly Saturday afternoon in Aichi Prefecture, a short drive
>from Toyota's world headquarters in Toyota City, Toya removes his
>right shoe to demonstrate. Pulsing and gliding demands
>sensitivity when pushing or releasing the accelerator, so only
>his big toe touches the pedal.
>
>Toya accelerates, or pulses, to 29 mph, then glides down to 25
>mph before pulsing again. The car uses no fuel when gliding.
>
>While driving, Toya monitors three pocket-sized electronic
>gadgets designed by Yoshiyuki Mimura, a fellow hybrid enthusiast.
>The dashboard devices use the car's computer to display engine
>rotation speed, coolant temperature, accelerator position, brake
>pressure and battery charge.
>[...]
>"We listen to our customers' opinions and accept them as
>materials for product development," a Toyota spokeswoman, Shiori
>Hashimoto, said in response to questions about the mileage
>maniacs.
>
>Toyota and other Japanese automakers are focusing on improving
>hybrid batteries and making the vehicles cheaper, Endo said. The
>cars now cost about �600,000, or $5,100, more than the equivalent
>conventional vehicles.
>
>Toyota plans to introduce a new Prius by 2009 that will be
>smaller and cheaper, Endo said. The mileage maniacs say they look
>forward to the challenge of improving its fuel efficiency.
>
>"The vehicle will be high-tech," said the enthusiast, Mimura. "I
>think it'll be more difficult to hack."
>
>Copyright � 2007 the International Herald Tribune All rights
>reserved
>-
>
>
>
>
>Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
>
>' ____
>~/__|o\__
>'@----- @'---(=
>. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
>. EV List Editor & AFV newswires
>. (originator of the above ASCII art)
>===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
>: MEPIS Linux & WiFi powered :
>
>
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>The island-country of Kiribati will be sunk in 15 years
>by climate change. May be one solution:
>Newspapers and TV news coverage of
>our 'no cost' battery for electric vehicles,
>solving global warming and pollution at once..
>http://tv-news-revived-batteries.blogspot.com/
>
>
>
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why yes there is. Ive used this device for several years with great
success.http://www.scangauge.com/

robert mat <robert04mat@...> wrote: This post could be better titled,
perhaps as: HOW TO DRIVE AN EV FOR MAXIMUM RANGE.

If you've been watching an ammeter carefully, you can see how its possible to
reduce amps by ~80% at little cost in speed, by coasting, once the EV has gone
up to speed (assuming no regen brakes. My motor is an Advanced 9 inch.)

Its a sobering lesson for gasoline drivers: Seems that driving in the "normal"
way is burning up gasoline needlessly. Is there a way to have an ammeter-like
gauge for gasoline cars?

Rob Matthies







bruce parmenter wrote: EVLN(Tofu maker Toya pulses & glides his hybrid to
nenpimania)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/04/05/business/sxhybrid.php
Mileage maniacs push limits of hybrids
By Terje Langeland Bloomberg News April 5, 2007

TOKYO: Toyota Motor says its Prius gasoline-electric hybrid car
can get about 55 miles to the gallon, making it one of the most
fuel-efficient cars on the road. That is not good enough for
Takashi Toya.

Toya, a 56-year-old manager for a tofu maker in central Japan,
puts special tires on his Prius, tapes plastic and cardboard over
the engine and blocks the grill with foam rubber. He drives
without shoes and hacks into his car's computer - all in the
pursuit of maximum distance with minimum gasoline.

Toya is one of about 100 nenpimania, Japanese for "mileage
maniacs," or hybrid owners who compete against each other to
squeeze as much as 115 miles per gallon out of their cars. In a
country where gasoline costs more than $4 a gallon, at least $1
more than the average U.S. price, enthusiasts tweak their cars
and hone driving techniques to cut fuel bills and gain bragging
rights.

"My wife thinks I've joined some strange secret society," Toya
said last January at a nenpimania gathering in Nagoya in central
Japan.

Mileage maniacs are not alone in pushing the limits of hybrid
vehicles. As the U.S. automakers General Motors and Ford Motor
race to introduce their own models, first rolled out by Japanese
companies in 1997, engineers at Toyota and Honda Motor are trying
to increase hybrid performance to maintain their advantage.
[...]
Hybrids combine a conventional gasoline engine with an electric
motor. The electric motor powers the vehicle at low speeds, and
the gasoline engine kicks in as the car accelerates. The motor
uses the motion of the wheels to recharge the batteries.
[...]
While the nenpimania may take things to extremes, there is a long
history of car owners tinkering with their machines to improve
gas mileage.

"The Gas Mileage Bible" (Infinity Publishing, 2006) promises to
help drivers improve fuel efficiency by more than 30 percent. It
is the latest in a line of books stretching back to at least
1942, when an American author named Lee Richter published a
64-page pamphlet on increasing tire and gas mileage to help save
resources for the U.S. war effort.

Since the 1997 release of the Prius, the first mass-market
hybrid, owners in Japan and elsewhere have fiddled with their
cars to raise mileage and shared tips, including the best driving
techniques, over the Internet. The mileage maniacs strive to
perfect what they call the "pulse and glide" driving method.

On a chilly Saturday afternoon in Aichi Prefecture, a short drive
from Toyota's world headquarters in Toyota City, Toya removes his
right shoe to demonstrate. Pulsing and gliding demands
sensitivity when pushing or releasing the accelerator, so only
his big toe touches the pedal.

Toya accelerates, or pulses, to 29 mph, then glides down to 25
mph before pulsing again. The car uses no fuel when gliding.

While driving, Toya monitors three pocket-sized electronic
gadgets designed by Yoshiyuki Mimura, a fellow hybrid enthusiast.
The dashboard devices use the car's computer to display engine
rotation speed, coolant temperature, accelerator position, brake
pressure and battery charge.
[...]
"We listen to our customers' opinions and accept them as
materials for product development," a Toyota spokeswoman, Shiori
Hashimoto, said in response to questions about the mileage
maniacs.

Toyota and other Japanese automakers are focusing on improving
hybrid batteries and making the vehicles cheaper, Endo said. The
cars now cost about �600,000, or $5,100, more than the equivalent
conventional vehicles.

Toyota plans to introduce a new Prius by 2009 that will be
smaller and cheaper, Endo said. The mileage maniacs say they look
forward to the challenge of improving its fuel efficiency.

"The vehicle will be high-tech," said the enthusiast, Mimura. "I
think it'll be more difficult to hack."

Copyright � 2007 the International Herald Tribune All rights
reserved
-




Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter

' ____
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'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
: MEPIS Linux & WiFi powered :



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The island-country of Kiribati will be sunk in 15 years
by climate change. May be one solution:
Newspapers and TV news coverage of
our 'no cost' battery for electric vehicles,
solving global warming and pollution at once..
http://tv-news-revived-batteries.blogspot.com/




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mahindra & mahindra as also bajaj auto have 3 wheeler ev
models which can seat from 3 to 8 people .. and the tech
paper deliver by the guy from bajaj shows that they are
uptodate on their tech info from around the world !
(i posted a link here probably)

..peekay



----- Original Message -----
From: "bruce parmenter" <ev_list_editor@...>
To: "evlist" <ev@...>
Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 3:20 AM
Subject: EVLN(Kind to Man technology: 3Wheel Mahindra E-Bijlees)-long


> EVLN(Kind to Man technology: 3Wheel Mahindra E-Bijlees)-long
> [The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
> informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
> --- {EVangel}
>
http://news.moneycontrol.com/india/news/pressnews/thirunrangasamymahindrabij
lees/puducherrycmhan/market/stocks/article/273169
> Puducherry CM hands over 10 Bijlees to customers
>
> The Honourable Chief Minister of Puducherry, Thiru N. Rangasamy
> today handed over the keys of 10 Mahindra Bijlees to customers at
> the Exhibition of Renewable Energy and Energy Conserving Devices,
> today. The Bijlee, an innovative, first-of-its-kind electric
> three wheeler, is India's tried and tested battery operated
> vehicle.
>
> Apart from the Chief Minister, the function was attended by other
> senior state and central government leaders and officials. Mr.
> Vishnu K. Garg, Vice President, Operations and Business
> Development, Mahindra & Mahindra was also present. The exhibition
> has been organized by REAP (Renewable Energy Agency of
> Pondicherry) at the initiative of Mrs. D. Selvi, Project
> Director,
>
> The Puducherry government has been promoting environment friendly
> vehicles as part of its drive to conserve the Union territory's
> pristine heritage. In line with its plan to encourage the use of
> battery operated vehicles, it will be providing Puducherry's
> customers with a second charging station, which would be
> strategically located to facilitate transport.
>
> Forty Mahindra Bijlee's are currently running on Puducherry roads
> and have been met with great enthusiasm by the environment
> conscious customers of the Union territory.
> [...]
> He was speaking after inaugurating the Exhibition of Renewable
> Energy and Energy Conserving Devices, which has been envisaged to
> showcase the best in renewable energy technology.
> [...]
> Mrs. D. Selvi, Project Director, REAP, said, "I welcome the
> addition of more Bijlee vehicles on Puducherry's roads and the
> customer's choice of the Mahindra product. It is in perfect
> harmony with Puducherry's drive to promote the use of cost
> efficient and non-polluting energy sources."
>
> Bijlee: Driven by "Kind to Man" technology
>
> The Bijlee is an innovative "Kind to Man" technology initiative
> from Mahindra & Mahindra's alternate fuel programme. It is a zero
> emission electrically powered vehicle that runs on a 72 volts DC
> motor. The Bijlee's 12 batteries allow the customer to do 80 km
> at a speed of 35 km/hour. With a replacement battery on board the
> vehicle can easily give 120 kms. The electric vehicle has
> spacious interiors, with ample space for an entire family. It has
> no engine, gearbox radiator and no silencer, which makes it a
> virtually noise free vehicle. Bijlee gives quality output without
> choking the environment and is favoured by governments and
> institutions, which lay focus on conserving the environment.
>
> Sourced From: Adfactors Public Relations Pvt Ltd
> Copyright © e-Eighteen.com Ltd. All rights reserved.
>
> ===
>
> http://automotive.mahindraworld.com/Mahindra_Bijlee.htm
> [image http://automotive.mahindraworld.com/Bijlee.gif ]
> Mahindra Bijlee
> Salient Features :
> Battery operated-zero pollution & practically noiseless.
> Powerful Sepex Motor for trouble free operation.
> Single Reduction Gear Box.
> No clutch or gear shifting .
> Spacious 10 seater.
> Short turning circle radius of 3.6 mts.
> Approx 90 km per charge under standard test cycle.
> Low maintenance cost.
> Good for gradients.
> No permit fee.
>
> Electrical Specifications :
> Motor Type : 72V;DC;Regenerative Braking&Reversible Direction
> Max Power kw/rpm : 5.8kw(S2Rating)/3900(~7.8HP/3900)
> Electricals Controller : Electronic MOSFET Sepex controller
>
> Battery Specifications :
> Battery Make : Trojan 105
> Battery Type Lead acid deep cycle battery
> No of Batteries/vehicle 12-6V each
>
> General Specifications :
> Body : Steel With Soft Top
> Transmission :
> Ratio
> Single Reduction Gear Box :
> Fixed ratio 1:2.833 One gear only.
>
> Front Axle : Single Wheel - yoke arrangement
> Rear Axle Capacity : Full floating , spiral bevel gear 4.125:1
> Steering Wheel diameter (mm) :
> Ratio
> 380
> 20:1
>
> Turning Circle radius : 3.6
> Gradeability: 11.4%
> Suspension :Front
> :Rear
> Independent Dual coil spring shock absorber mounted on fork
> assembly.
> Elliptical leaf springs with double acting hydraulic shock
> absorbers.
> Braking System Tradem master cylinder assisted hydraulic
> internal expanding brake on front and rear wheels. Micro switch
> activates regenerative braking.
> Additional secondary Hand Brake Provided.
> Tyres : 4.5 x 10-8 Diagonal Ply
> Wheel Base 2315 mm
> Overall Length : 3180 mm
> Overall Width : 1500 mm
> Overall Height: 1925 mm
> Track : 1315 mm
> Ground Clearance 140 mm
> Seating Capacity 10 Persons (Including driver)
> Kerb Weight 870 Kg.
> GVB 1545 Kg.
> -
>
>
>
>
> Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
>
> ' ____
> ~/__|o\__
> '@----- @'---(=
> . http://geocities.com/brucedp/
> . EV List Editor & AFV newswires
> . (originator of the above ASCII art)
> ===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
> : MEPIS Linux & WiFi powered :
>
>
>
>
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> --
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9:30 PM
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>

> ----- Original Message Follows -----
> From: John Fisher <john@...>

< snipped >

> I'd bet an auto company could build them for $9-10k and still
> make very good profit. Yet they refuse to. Why? Because
> they are not capable of changing, innovating away from
> steel, ICE's.

nice long factual response .. the only thing that i feel differently
about is the above statement .. there are much more compelling
reasons for auto company to NOT change/innovate .. they may
kill their own business ! since ev's will immediately phase out
their current i.c.e. models

Yes, every battery needs bypass to balance
Also, for the bypass to balance well, the difference
between bypass current and charge current must not be too large.
When charging at 30A for example, the 0.5A max bypass current
does not help much in balancing, especially when you charge for
only 1 or 2 hours.
If the finish charge (after bulk charge) tapers back to 2A
for example, then the bypass changes that in 1.5A for a full battery.
It will still charge, but each hour it gets 0.5Ah close to the others.
If your finish charge runs for 4 hours each night, then each night your
batteries may get up to 2 Ah closer together.
If they originally were 10 Ah apart, then after a week they will get
very close and the moment the lamps come on will get closer together
in time - this you can monitor.
If the batteries are unbalanced and the charge current is so large
that they still all come on then you must reduce charge current
until some extinguish, so they can balance (soak up charge while
others are bypassed).

Hope this helps,

Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: CWater@... Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: cor_van_de_water@...
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...] On
Behalf Of Frank John
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 5:32 AM
To: ev@...
Subject: Zener reg question

I installed Lee's zener diode regs on my small m-cycle conversion (36
VDC) and am noticing that the third (most +'ve) light isn't as bright as the
other two (I'm using three 12 volt agm batteries). The most -'ve battery
reads .1 volt higher than the middle battery, and the middle battery reads
.1 VDC higher than the last (most +'ve) battery. It appears that there's
not enough current being bypassed. Is this a correct assumption? I'm
thinking that another bulb in parallel with the PR2 might help. While I'm
thinking about it, does the last battery in series really need the bypass
scheme?

TIA







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On 10 Apr 2007 at 11:58, childreypa wrote:

> However, what if you were to run a generator using a
> driver designed with efficiency and greenness in mind. Say a 1.0L Geo
> metro engine. Running at constant rpm, powering an efficient generator,
> I hypothesize that it would be possible to get just as good gpm as the
> metro and still have the all electric capability provided the ICE was
> mounted in the vehicle.

I think you'll have trouble achieving that goal, particularly if you also want
comparable exhaust cleanliness.

Running an automotive ICE at a constant speed, and tuning it for that speed,
made a big difference 30 or 40 years ago when ICEs were fitted with fixed- jet
carburetors, and the sum of their adjustment for varying speeds and loads
was vacuum and centrifugal ignition advance. In those days, series hybrids
could actually produce improved mpg by leveling the load on the engine, so it
could be optimized for that load.

Today ICEs have computers that listen to rather sophisticated sensors,
monitoring operating conditions. The computers control electronic fuel
injection, ignition timing, and even valve timing. They are very good at
maximizing efficiency at varying speeds and loads.

In modern ICEs, there's little if anything to be gained by fixed-speed
operation. Any gain is likely to at least be offset by the losses in energy
conversion to electricity. This makes it difficult for series hybrids to beat
the
original ICE, let alone a parallel hybrid.

Someone pointed out that AC Propulsion's Honda Civic conversion could
make 35 mpg on the highway with its genset trailer. That's pretty good -
you'd expect no less from a smart engineer like Alan Cocconi. However, a
Honda Civic VX ICE - same vintage as his conversion - can easily hit 50 mpg
on the highway (it's EPA rated at 56 mpg).

Furthermore, Cocconi's range extender trailer used a motorcycle engine.
One matter I've never seen discussed (I may have just missed it) is the
emissions profile of that APU in grams per mile. I'd be surprised (and
pleasantly so) if it were as clean as the Honda Civic ICE it replaced.

Emissions control hardware (or the lack thereof) aside, keep in mind the
problem of controlling emissions in an engine that's frequently shut down and
restarted. Every restart means higher exhaust emissions until the control
system again warms up and stabilizes. The quasi-hybrids from Toyota and
Honda would get even better mpg if they didn't have to program the
computers to watch out for this issue. Getting the catalytic converter up to
temperature and keeping it there is a priority for these cars - especially the
Toyota, which aims for PZEV classification. (I think they keep their oxygen
sensors warm electrically, but I'm not 100% sure.)

Bottom line : if you want to maximize your transportation efficiency, at least
in the dimension of fuel usage and per-mile energy efficiency, you should
have two vehicles in your household - an EV for short trips, and an ICE for
longer ones. (Actually, a bicycle or even an e-bike in the mix would improve
the efficiency even more.) The next best strategy (perhaps more practical for
some, especially singles) is a parallel hybrid. A series hybrid will be much
further down the list.

Well if you use 1.0 for Peukert, then your estimates should be off by less
than 5%.

A peukert number of 1.0 basically nullifies the Peukert calculation.

> EV calculators seem to need Peukert numbers for all batteries, even
> though, strictly speaking, they apply to lead-acid batteries.
>
> I'm looking at the Kokam SLPB 460330 series
> http://www.kokam.com/english/product/battery_main.html
>
> and not finding much in the way of information that would allow me to
> calculate Peukert numbers.
>
> This issue has been raised in the past, for example in digest 4159 in
> which some "Pseudo Peukert" numbers were calcuated (for different
> batteries), but unfortunately the data mentioned is no longer available
> on Kokam's web site (that I can find).
>
> Kokam makes a statement that capacity is only reduced by 5% when
> discharging at 2C, but is generally mum otherwise.
>
> So....anybody have some numbers that would seem reasonable? Barring
> that, anybody have any idea where to get the data to calcuate the
> numbers (aside from asking Kokam, of course).
>
> Thanks,
> --Steve
>
>


--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.

Well you are going to have to have the motor/generator spinning faster
than it wants to with full pack voltage applied (i.e. max throttle). So
you will probably have to downshift.
Also, depending on your pack voltage, it might have to spin faster than is
safe.

Otherwise it should work.

>
> Let me say first off, " I know what you are gonna say, Why in the world
> are you using a G29 Aircraft Generator for a motor?" It was $180.oo and
> my first EV conversion, please overlook it.
>
> Now, Here's my question - Since this generator/motor will produce
> voltage when I'm coasting downhill, (Clutchless EV) could I use a
> 400amp Diode and a contactor to route that voltage back to the battery
> pack? I'd engage the regen contactor with the brake pedal switch, (Note:
> I'd adjust the sensitivity of the switch to where the brake pedal would
> not actually have to activate the hydraulic brakes during regen) and add
> a light on the dash letting me know that regen is active. I'm going to
> be using an Alltrax AXE7245 controller in this application. I certainly
> don't want to chance blowing up the controller.
>
> Please feel free to rip this idea apart. I could not find anything on
> this in the archives.
>
> Thanks in advance - Mike
>
> PS: Thanks for all the comments on EV converting in the Schools, I'm
> collecting them, and hope to put together a proposal to a few schools in
> the area. Most of the schools have dropped Vocational Training, and no
> longer have Auto Shop. To make it even tougher, Oklahoma, has a law
> forbidding individuals from EV converting, unless you become certified
> by the State. Going to be a rough sell in Texas and Oklahoma.
>
>
>
> Michael Barkley
>
> "You might be a REDNECK, if it ain't ELECTRIC"
>
> www.texomaev.com
>
>


--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.

Well, assuming you have a very efficient motor and drive train, then you
can regen approx 50% of the energy used JUST for acceleration.
In order to get 15% more range, the energy used JUST for acceleration
would have to account for 30% of your TOTAL energy expenditure.

Unless you are the sort that likes to floor it on every launch, 30% seems
a tad excessive. Even in stop and go traffic.

I believe the 15%, best case, number stated previously already takes into
account all the factors you mention. And (my guess) includes a heavy dose
of optimistic measurements/calculations.

> You get a bit more than you would first think from regen.
>
> Around town in stop-and-go traffic, you would calculate that you
> would save about 10% or 15%. Then you travel that extra 15%. While
> traveling that extra 15%, you get 15% more of that!
>
> Also, batteries really like to "flip over" and charge for just a bit
> during discharge. They are not simple beings chemically, and the
> brief charge during regen, especially for lead-acid batteries, makes
> a greater range increase than you would expect, when just using a
> simple calculation. Also, you move to a different part of the
> Puekert's curve on the batteries, helping just a bit more.
>
> Al these "non-linear" effects work together to add perhaps an extra
> 5% that you would not at first calculate.
>
> On the highway, or in light traffic that allows you to drive
> efficiently without using the brakes, regen makes no difference. It
> is also expensive to add to a DC drive system. It is generally much
> cheaper to simply add another battery or two.
>
> Bill Dube'
>
>


--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.

I'm working right now on Peukert's equation for 216216 series (it's NCM based
high power, high capacity). When I'll have this numbers I'll be happy to
share.

Regards,

Marcin

and yet its my impression that the new hybrid trucks get most or all of their
increased efficiency from regen. Is it a
matter of their far-greater mass? Don't the car hybrids gain a lot of efficiency
in city driving from regen? Do they
just have more sophisticated systems?

Peter VanDerWal wrote:

>
> That's because the "benifits" are generally negligible. ...
>

I had written:

> The tranny is full of fresh 75W90 gear oil, per the manual,
> however, I've been advised that the manual is wrong and a GM
> semi-synthetic lube is what should be in there. I'm
> skeptical that the lube alone could be responsible for this
> sort of loss, but since an oil change is easier than
> rebuilding the tranny, I'll try that first ;^>

As it turns out, it seems (from checking a partial bottle remaining in
the garage) that the tranny is actually full of 80W90, not 75W90 as I
originally wrote.

I put the car on stands again (under the frame with the suspension at
full droop since the suspension angle didn't seem to affect energy
consumption in my earlier tests and I feel better with the stands under
the frame when I'm going to be getting under the car).

All following energy consumption observations are based on battery pack
voltage and current as reported by my E-Meter.

I spun the wheels in 2nd for a few minutes to warm things up first, then
measured energy use in each gear at 40kph (except 1st, which was
measured at 30kph):

5th 23.4A @ 123.5V (116.3Wh/mi or 72.2Wh/km)
4th 22.9A @ 123.0V (113.4Wh/mi or 70.4Wh/km)
3rd 25.5A @ 123.0V (126.2Wh/mi or 78.4Wh/km)
2nd 30.8A @ 121.5V (150.6Wh/mi or 93.6Wh/km)
1st 37.5A @ 121.5V (244.5Wh/mi or 151.9Wh/km)

After draining the old fluid, I poured in a half litre or so of Varsol
and spun the wheels for a minute or two to flush things out:

2nd 22.5A @ 123.0V (111.4Wh/mi or 69.2Wh/km)

This was then drained, and the tranny filled with 2.5 litres of the
recommended AC Delco Synchromesh fluid (p/n 89021808, IIRC):

5th 16.1A @ 123.0V (42kph, 75.9Wh/mi or 47.2Wh/km) (34.7% lower)
4th 17.0A @ 122.5V (42kph, 79.8Wh/mi or 49.6Wh/km) (29.6% lower)
3rd 19.7A @ 120.0V (42.5-43kph, 89.6Wh/mi or 55.6Wh/km) (29.0% lower)
2nd 22.4A @ 120.0V (39.5-40kph, 108.2Wh/mi or 67.2Wh/km) (28.9% lower)
1st 37.7A @ 118.0V (39kph, 183.7Wh/mi or 114.1Wh/km) (24.9% lower)

So, going to the synthetic fluid definitely seems like a step in the
right direction, however, not nearly as large a step as is required :(

On the plus side, the 3rd-2nd downshift "crunch" is gone, which had been
one of the touted benefits of using this tranny fluid.

So, some progress, but the hunt for better efficiency continues...

Cheers,

Roger.

--- childreypa <childreypa@...> wrote:
> However, what if you were to run a generator using a
> driver designed with efficiency and greenness in mind. Say a 1.0L Geo
> metro engine.
> Anyway, this is my project so Ill let you know over the summer.
>

Have you found a generator head yet? Any idea on what size you need? Keep us
posted on your
progress. Unlike some others on the list, I think there's a place for this
configuration.

I'd like to build a generator into a trailer for long trips. I could use it to
drive my Ev up to
my parents place in Maine, Hagerstown in the summer, and maybe even Joliet and
the Battery Beach
Burnout too. Without using my truck to tow the EV. Even just to get to that
energy fair in Boston
or Tour del Sol in New York. I bet a few of my fellow EVers in the area could
put it to use once
in a while too. And even if it's a little dirtier than my Prius, over the course
of a year, I'm
way ahead of any other gas/diesel/propane powered vehicle.

Keep at it. I may start on one once I get my car on the road.

Dave Cover

There are a number of lists and forums on the Web made for discussing
Prius tricks and hacks. They've got experts there. This is not only
off-topic for the EV list, but you'll get a heck of a lot better
information talking to the Prius dudes.

Danny

Chip Gribben wrote:

> Anyone know of anyone who hacked into their Prius to increase the
> mileage?
>
> I just got a call from the Washington Post and they want to write a
> story on this, particularly anyone in the DC area who has hacked into
> one.
>
> I personally don't know anyone around here who has.
>
> I'm aware of the Plug-In Priuses that have been done. And the only
> one I know of in the DC area is the one owned by Fairfax County that
> had their Prius converted by Hymotion (sp?) in Canada.
>
> But I think they are really looking for people who have actually
> hacked into the system to tweak it to improve the mileage. I'm not
> even sure if this is possible or not. It would seem you would be
> limited by the capacity of the existing battery pack and messing with
> the air/fuel mixture may cause performance issues. So it maybe like
> drawing blood out of a rock.
>
> So if anyone has any reason why it can't easily be done that would be
> good to know too. Lee? The Post maybe chasing a myth and this would
> be a good time to nip it. We need to fight the myths as well as tout
> technological gains.
>
> Email me off list or call if you are interested or know someone who
> has or have any information that would help
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chip Gribben
> 240-687-1678
>
> Electric Vehicle Association of Washington DC
> http://www.evadc.org
>
> NEDRA
> http://www.nedra.com
>

My friend mounted a vacuum guage in the dash hooked up to the ice vacuum
system and he watches it and trys to keep it low because when you step on
the gas and ask for power the vacuum increases. mike young.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Mccabe" <jeff.mccabe@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 3:02 PM
Subject: Re: HOW TO DRIVE AN EV FOR MAXIMUM RANGE. Re: EVLN(Tofu maker Toya
pulses & glides his hybrid to nenpimania)


> why yes there is. Ive used this device for several years with great
> success.http://www.scangauge.com/
>
> robert mat <robert04mat@...> wrote: This post could be better
> titled, perhaps as: HOW TO DRIVE AN EV FOR MAXIMUM RANGE.
>
> If you've been watching an ammeter carefully, you can see how its possible
> to reduce amps by ~80% at little cost in speed, by coasting, once the EV
> has gone up to speed (assuming no regen brakes. My motor is an Advanced 9
> inch.)
>
> Its a sobering lesson for gasoline drivers: Seems that driving in the
> "normal" way is burning up gasoline needlessly. Is there a way to have an
> ammeter-like gauge for gasoline cars?
>
> Rob Matthies
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> bruce parmenter wrote: EVLN(Tofu maker Toya pulses & glides his hybrid to
> nenpimania)
> [The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
> informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
> --- {EVangel}
> http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/04/05/business/sxhybrid.php
> Mileage maniacs push limits of hybrids
> By Terje Langeland Bloomberg News April 5, 2007
>
> TOKYO: Toyota Motor says its Prius gasoline-electric hybrid car
> can get about 55 miles to the gallon, making it one of the most
> fuel-efficient cars on the road. That is not good enough for
> Takashi Toya.
>
> Toya, a 56-year-old manager for a tofu maker in central Japan,
> puts special tires on his Prius, tapes plastic and cardboard over
> the engine and blocks the grill with foam rubber. He drives
> without shoes and hacks into his car's computer - all in the
> pursuit of maximum distance with minimum gasoline.
>
> Toya is one of about 100 nenpimania, Japanese for "mileage
> maniacs," or hybrid owners who compete against each other to
> squeeze as much as 115 miles per gallon out of their cars. In a
> country where gasoline costs more than $4 a gallon, at least $1
> more than the average U.S. price, enthusiasts tweak their cars
> and hone driving techniques to cut fuel bills and gain bragging
> rights.
>
> "My wife thinks I've joined some strange secret society," Toya
> said last January at a nenpimania gathering in Nagoya in central
> Japan.
>
> Mileage maniacs are not alone in pushing the limits of hybrid
> vehicles. As the U.S. automakers General Motors and Ford Motor
> race to introduce their own models, first rolled out by Japanese
> companies in 1997, engineers at Toyota and Honda Motor are trying
> to increase hybrid performance to maintain their advantage.
> [...]
> Hybrids combine a conventional gasoline engine with an electric
> motor. The electric motor powers the vehicle at low speeds, and
> the gasoline engine kicks in as the car accelerates. The motor
> uses the motion of the wheels to recharge the batteries.
> [...]
> While the nenpimania may take things to extremes, there is a long
> history of car owners tinkering with their machines to improve
> gas mileage.
>
> "The Gas Mileage Bible" (Infinity Publishing, 2006) promises to
> help drivers improve fuel efficiency by more than 30 percent. It
> is the latest in a line of books stretching back to at least
> 1942, when an American author named Lee Richter published a
> 64-page pamphlet on increasing tire and gas mileage to help save
> resources for the U.S. war effort.
>
> Since the 1997 release of the Prius, the first mass-market
> hybrid, owners in Japan and elsewhere have fiddled with their
> cars to raise mileage and shared tips, including the best driving
> techniques, over the Internet. The mileage maniacs strive to
> perfect what they call the "pulse and glide" driving method.
>
> On a chilly Saturday afternoon in Aichi Prefecture, a short drive
> from Toyota's world headquarters in Toyota City, Toya removes his
> right shoe to demonstrate. Pulsing and gliding demands
> sensitivity when pushing or releasing the accelerator, so only
> his big toe touches the pedal.
>
> Toya accelerates, or pulses, to 29 mph, then glides down to 25
> mph before pulsing again. The car uses no fuel when gliding.
>
> While driving, Toya monitors three pocket-sized electronic
> gadgets designed by Yoshiyuki Mimura, a fellow hybrid enthusiast.
> The dashboard devices use the car's computer to display engine
> rotation speed, coolant temperature, accelerator position, brake
> pressure and battery charge.
> [...]
> "We listen to our customers' opinions and accept them as
> materials for product development," a Toyota spokeswoman, Shiori
> Hashimoto, said in response to questions about the mileage
> maniacs.
>
> Toyota and other Japanese automakers are focusing on improving
> hybrid batteries and making the vehicles cheaper, Endo said. The
> cars now cost about �600,000, or $5,100, more than the equivalent
> conventional vehicles.
>
> Toyota plans to introduce a new Prius by 2009 that will be
> smaller and cheaper, Endo said. The mileage maniacs say they look
> forward to the challenge of improving its fuel efficiency.
>
> "The vehicle will be high-tech," said the enthusiast, Mimura. "I
> think it'll be more difficult to hack."
>
> Copyright � 2007 the International Herald Tribune All rights
> reserved
> -
>
>
>
>
> Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
>
> ' ____
> ~/__|o\__
> '@----- @'---(=
> . http://geocities.com/brucedp/
> . EV List Editor & AFV newswires
> . (originator of the above ASCII art)
> ===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
> : MEPIS Linux & WiFi powered :
>
>
>
>
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