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Today's Topics:

1. Why don't they cost more?, was: Why do they sell for $2K?
(cowtown@...)
2. Re: My Lithium Wishlist (Morgan LaMoore)
3. Alternator driven by wheel or axleshaft? (andy@...)
4. Re: Chico EAA meeting Sat. March 8th And New England EAA too.
(Bob Rice)
5. Re: My Lithium Wishlist (a question in a question)
(Morgan LaMoore)
6. Re: What is in a Zilla controller ? Why do they sell for $2K
? (Travis Gintz)
7. Re: Cables in Cabin (Mark Fowler)
8. Re: My Lithium Wishlist (Mark Fowler)
9. Re: What is in a Zilla controller ? Why do they sell for $2K
? (EVDL Administrator)
10. Re: eBox Interview (Tom Parker)
11. Re: Body mounted solar PV Charging......hear me out here, I
know, I know. .... (mos6507@...)
12. Speaking of cheap lithium (not for bipolar disease)
(cowtown@...)
13. Re: AC motor blues (fsabolich)
14. Re: homebrew switch mode charger - use of PC supply
(Cor van de Water)
15. Re: What is in a Zilla controller ? Why do they sell for $2K
? (vehiculeselectriques.free.fr)
16. Re: Extending the range (Evan Tuer)
17. Re: Speaking of cheap lithium (not for bipolar disease)
(Evan Tuer)
18. Re: Cables in Cabin (TrotFox Greyfoot)
19. Re: Sparrow Extending the range (jerryd)
20. Re: Sparrow Extending the range (Evan Tuer)
21. Multiple chargers? (DOCTORDHD@...)
22. Re: Alternator driven by wheel or axleshaft? (Roland Wiench)
23. Re: ng efficiency, Li-ion, lead batt, Fast Charging facts...
do you really need tha fast charging ??? (Seppo Lindborg)
24. Re: Questions for Randy Richmond about truck EV, was Re:
Non-isolated DC/DC converter (RightHand Engineering)
25. Re: Sealed battery behavior. (Tim Humphrey)
26. AC motor blues (Jeff Shanab)
27. Re: What is in a Zilla controller ? Why do they sell for $2K?
(Jeff Shanab)
28. Re: AC motor blues (Morgan LaMoore)
29. Re: Multiple chargers? (Mark Eidson)
30. Re: Sparrow Extending the range (cowtown@...)
31. Re: Sparrow Extending the range (cowtown@...)
32. Re: Sparrow Extending the range (Evan Tuer)
33. Re: Sparrow Extending the range (John G. Lussmyer)
34. Re: What is in a Zilla controller ? Why do they sell for $2K
? (Lee Hart)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2008 19:54:35 -0800
From: cowtown@...
Subject: [EVDL] Why don't they cost more?, was: Why do they sell for
$2K?
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <20080302195435.zjg55ax3k8wckw4c@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes";
format="flowed"

<<<< Otmar is very aware of pricing himself out of the market. He has a high
cost for parts. He uses real copper in his controllers. Costly. It is not
easy to build his controller. All in all the 156k version is a marvel &
bargain. One of these in Blue Meanie was enough to scare the bejesus out of
me in one short block. I can only imagine this small wonder in my
motorcycle. It's small enough to fit. Otmar has also had trouble keeping
up with demand of his least expensive product but it is near perfect for the
lowend conversion market. A Curtis 1231 is about the same price and it will
do half the amps & one battery less in volts. So if you ask why the Zilla
sells for two k ask why the next best thing(by miles) costs about the
same. >>>>

Do you remember Econ 101? When demand outstrips supply, what happens
to the price? One could not begrudge Otmar the logic of following this
- he *will* have a market with conservative changes, and then still
leave his waste products in the yapping maw of the nearest troll.



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 22:03:19 -0600
From: "Morgan LaMoore" <morganl@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] My Lithium Wishlist
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID:
<4230c7190803022003q19b4539bgbfc3375d7895f695@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 7:53 PM, Mark Fowler <mark.just.mark@...> wrote:
> Capacity: around 100Ah - there's no way I'm welding/soldering/bolting
> 40 odd 2.5Ah cells together - I don't have the attention span or the
> skill.
>
> Current Output: 5C continuous, 10+C peak

I think that these two points are at odds with each other. I've not
seen any big 100Ah cells that can do 5C/10C, but lots of small cells
can. The smaller cells have more surface area to dissipate heat,
maybe.

Take a look at the Headway cells - these are 10Ah each, so you'd only
need 10 in parallel to get your 100Ah. That would be a total of 450
cells for a 144V 100Ah pack. Still a lot, but not entirely
unreasonable. At $17.25 each, the cells would cost $7800, but you'd
have to add the cost of BMS and packaging.

-Morgan LaMoore



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2008 21:07:25 -0700
From: andy@...
Subject: [EVDL] Alternator driven by wheel or axleshaft?
To: EV List Submissions <ev@...>
Message-ID:

<20080302210725.1dc0ea316a0af32b5d4beb7b6177247f.f8c99447aa.wbe@...\
er.net>

Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII

Hi Gang - hope you can help me with this quandry

I'm scared out of my wits to try again with a DC/DC after something went
wrong with my first one and fried my controller. This is an Azure AC
drive kit that requires 12v input - the controller is not isolated from
ground.

CC Power replaced the converter, but I've left it in the box.

The Azure motor does not have a rear output, so My new idea is to drive
an alternator off the right driveshaft (FWD Mazda 323) or one of the
rear wheels. Has anyone tried a setup like this? Successfully? What
parts did you use? Please send pictures.


IF I should stick with the DC/DC kit, is there a package I could buy
that would assure that no high voltage crosses over? I hear folks
mention diodes, etc, but I want something engineered by someone other
than me!


Thanks all!
Andy
Ames, IA

www.evalbum.com/1473




------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 23:16:52 -0500
From: "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Chico EAA meeting Sat. March 8th And New England
EAA too.
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <033201c87ce5$68d873b0$85310045@adminwlzisp2uc>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252";
reply-type=original


----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Alldrin" <eb1chuck@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2008 9:30 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Chico EAA meeting Sat. March 8th

Hi EVerybody


Hey guyz! That's OUR day, too!The regular EAA meeting at my place in
Killingworth CT, this coming sat, about 2pm. If ya have a working Lear Jet
ya COULD make 'em both?We will have , maybe 5-6 EV's in one place. Hope it
doesn't knock the Earth outta orbit all that weight in one place<g>?Will
have the usual munchies, good times and EV construction groups a few
newbees SAID they will come?Look,see, drive a few EV's, right here on the
Least Coast! Dr Dave? Ya gunna make it THIS time, EVerybody wants to meet
the DeLorian. More than an old Sentra<g>!
>
> You are invited to attend the Chico chapter of the Electric Auto
> Association or "EAA".

Good Luck Chico Guyz! Hang in there IF you do it, they will come!
Wheeee! New Chapter! We ARE growinh, slowly, as Sheeple realize EV's are
here, now.

Seeya?

Bob in CT...."Be the Change You want to see in the World" Ghandi
>



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 22:29:11 -0600
From: "Morgan LaMoore" <morganl@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] My Lithium Wishlist (a question in a question)
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID:
<4230c7190803022029q100aa10bm1a4c1af4c2f3fcac@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 5:36 AM, dbeard@... <dbeard@...> wrote:
> I guess what I am getting at is that one cell may have a 2C rate at 3.2 volts,
and a series string of 4 cells would have a 2C rate at 12.8 volts....four of
these then conncted in parrallel would give you 8C at 12.8 volts

Nope. When you connect four in parallel, the pack is still rated at 2C, not 8C.

You have your series string that is rated at 2C and 10Ah. The max
current is 2*10=20A

You put four in parallel. The C rating stays the same; it is still 2C.
However, now it's 40Ah instead of 10Ah, so the max current is
2*40=80A.

-Morgan LaMoore



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 20:46:25 -0800
From: "Travis Gintz" <frodus17@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] What is in a Zilla controller ? Why do they sell
for $2K ?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID:
<b44c78160803022046h24639e9v7b29dd8de8e83910@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Why don't all the people who are COMPLAINING about the price, or
arguing about it one way or another, go make their own controller?

Thats what I'm doing, trying to help some guys in Portland with...and
so far its working pretty well. There are people who talk, and there
are people who DO. Arguing about the details that many here know
nothing about is futile. In the end, its just uneducated bicker.

Its not as easy as it looks, a lot of time and development go into
designing the board, trying to get rid of EMI, eddy currents... as
well as other issues that pop up along the way. Its not rocket
science, but it is an art. Sure you can throw some parts together,
throw some PWM at them and get some current flowing. But when you are
throwing the power and voltage that EV'rs do at a controller, it
changes EVERYTHING. Parts must be chosen carefully, and within
tolerances that match the design. Then there's programming it,
packaging, and paying for the development of several previous
prototypes.

Unless you have a product out there that people are using, let this
thread die. Otmar is one of the ONLY EV guys that is building a
commercially available controller. Sure some people have developed
their own, but do we see it on a website to buy? No. Why is that?
because its not as easy as it looks.

The reason I'm adding 2 cents in, is because I am being part of the
development of another controller... not talking about "how nice it
would be if....."

Let this thread die like it should have several days ago.


On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 7:18 PM, Otmar <Otlist07@...> wrote:
>
>
> Alan Petrillo wrote:
> >
> > The question I have for all of these manufacturers is since the USB
> > chipsets are available all over the place, and fairly cheap, why not
> > just make the interface USB?
> >
> > What am I missing?
> >
> >
>
> Good question Allan, you are not the first one to ask so I decided to put an
> answer up on my newly indexed FAQ. You can locate the FAQ here:
> http://cafeelectric.com/Sfaq.php
>
> Here is the relevant part from that FAQ:
>
> People often ask why I didn't integrate USB directly into the Hairball. This
> would be equivalent to installing such an adapter(USB to serial mentioned
> earlier) inside the Hairball. Unfortunately, terminal programs do not work
> directly with USB adapters and it becomes necessary to install drivers in
> your computer in order to recognize the USB port as a communication port.
> The primary reason I avoid that is because operating systems are constantly
> changing and I don't want to take on the responsibility of supporting
> computers. It would add "software provider" to my support duties and I don't
> want to dilute my efforts on things so weakly related to EVs. With the
> external USB to serial adapters, driver and support issues are handled by
> the manufacturer of the adapter.
>
> hth,
>
> -----
> -Otmar-
> 914 EV, California Poppy,
> http://evcl.com/914/
>
> Insight EV,
> http://www.cafeelectric.com/insight/
>
> http://www.CafeElectric.com/
> The Zilla factory.
> --
> View this message in context:
http://www.nabble.com/What-is-in-a-Zilla-controller----Why-do-they-sell-for-%242\
K---tp15724602p15797067.html
>
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



--
Travis Gintz
1986 Honda VFR DC conversion
Http://blog.evfr.net/



------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 15:40:00 +1100
From: "Mark Fowler" <mark.just.mark@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cables in Cabin
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID:
<b80fa91f0803022040s39d34d60tab9664cdf142a20d@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

You will have a hard time registering it in Australia if you run the
cables inside the cabin.



------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 15:53:46 +1100
From: "Mark Fowler" <mark.just.mark@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] My Lithium Wishlist
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID:
<b80fa91f0803022053h519764eah2edd75f3fc1146d1@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I guess that is the whole point.

I want someone to make a reasonably high current large format cell.

Like I said - I don't need 70C, 10C is plenty.

If I had to buy something right now, I'd probably go with Kokam - they
have 100Ah cells that will do 7C - I just wish they were block shaped
with screw terminals, not a big flat sheet with tabs.

(There's that wish word again...)



------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2008 16:02:16 -0500
From: "EVDL Administrator" <evpost@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] What is in a Zilla controller ? Why do they sell
for $2K ?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <47CACF88.2493.55494A37@...>

On 2 Mar 2008 at 7:29, Dan Frederiksen wrote:

> I see this post by me2 in the reply but I don't see the post from me2
> itself. this has heppened in another thread as well. is something wrong
> with the system? or some freakish problem with my client that doesn't show
> those posts. does anyone see the original post by me2?

When you're missing something from the list, check the archives for it. The
original item is here :

http://www.nabble.com/What-is-in-a-Zilla-controller----Why-do-they-sell-for-
%242K---tp15724602p15724602.html

http://tinyurl.com/2rb9g6

Occasionally the listserver hiccoughs. However, most often when you miss a
post or two, the problem is caused by your own mail server. The archive is
fully separate from the listserver, so if the item is in the archive, it was
transmitted by the list and the problem lies elsewhere.

David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/




------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 20:15:14 +1300
From: Tom Parker <carrott@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] eBox Interview
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <1204528514.5560.5.camel@tv>
Content-Type: text/plain

On Sun, 2008-03-02 at 10:21 -0500, Andrew wrote:
> Here is the link to my online photo album of the conversion process of my
> eBox electric vehicle.
>
> http://floridaeaa.org/modules/xcgal/thumbnails.php?album=16

What is the large auxiliary motor above and to the right of the main
motor in this this picture?
http://floridaeaa.org/modules/xcgal/displayimage.php?pid=567&fullsize=1

I'm guessing it's power steering or air conditioning?



------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 23:16:03 -0800
From: <mos6507@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Body mounted solar PV Charging......hear me out
here, I know, I know. ....
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <00cb01c87cfe$718973b0$800101df@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Real-estate is crashing. When it hits bottom, buy a house and put panels on
it.

-----Original Message-----
I rent so I can't put solar on the house.....




------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2008 23:24:25 -0800
From: cowtown@...
Subject: [EVDL] Speaking of cheap lithium (not for bipolar disease)
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <20080302232425.xknrjqbrgg44owos@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes";
format="flowed"

If you don't mind a 60A peak, check out eBay item 110229175929 for a
48V/20Ah pack of LiFePO4 batteries from China, starting bid under
$0.50/Whr - I am not sure which is worse, the duct-tape packaging or
their translation software.



------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 23:30:14 -0800 (PST)
From: fsabolich <fsabolich@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] AC motor blues
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <15798915.post@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


>No, you're confusing a PWM controller for a brushed DC motor with a BLDC
controller (or else, I'm >reading your comment wrong). Like the AC
controller, the BLDC controller adjusts frequency to >control motor speed.
The PWM brushed DC controller adjusts duty cycle to control speed, by
altering >the effective voltage. Yes, the AC and BLDC controllers will
adjust voltage as well as frequency, but >it is the frequency that controls
motor speed. By the way, many large AC motors are not Permanent >Magnet
motors, but use windings on the rotor, and slip rings if it is a syncronous
motor.

You are a bit confused about two things.

First:
For both BLDC and PMSM you do not adjust the "frequency" to get the motor to
go a certain speed. The only controller that does that is for AC induction
machines and it is called a Volts/Hertz controller.

For both AC induction motors and PMSM you generally use FOC (field oriented
control). Here you track the angular position of the rotor and give it the
correct excitation (in the 3 phases) for that particular rotor angle.

For BLDC you essentially do the same thing but in step of 60 degrees (and
the math is somewhat simpler). Don't think of it as the motor staying in
sync with the controller. Think of it as the controller following the rotor
in exactly the same way the commutator follows the rotor.

Second:
There are two frequencies that are in question here - the frequency that
commutation is performed (controlled by the rotor position) and the
frequency of the PWM that the power transistors switch at. A PMSM (or AC
induction) controller does not output a smooth sinewave such as you get from
the grid. It chops DC at a high frequency (typically several kilohertz) to
approximate the sine wave.

And now:
I think I know what you were trying to get at. At first I though you were
simply trying to filter out the high frequency component (typically several
kilohertz) so that the motor doesn't see it. Now I think you were probably
talking about filtering at a much lower frequency. Suppose you have
commutation at 60 hertz at a given motor speed (same as from the grid). Now
you want to use a LC filter to take out the 3,5,7,etc harmonics from the
square wave (ala Fourier) so you are left with basically a sine wave.

Reasons it won't work.

1. The filter would be physically huge - and it would only work for a
limited frequency range (and therefore limited speed range)

2. The filter would introduce a phase lag from the input to the output
(motor side). The phase lag is the last thing you want. Actually, you want
a phase lead because the motor is itself inductive which means that the
current lags the voltage. For BLDC it is common for the controller to lead
the motor as speed increases.

BTW, next time I have the test system together, I can record a little video
of a BLDC motor being driven with sinusoidal excitation and then
trapezoidal. You can easily hear the difference and see the current draw
difference on the power supply.

Fran

--
View this message in context:
http://www.nabble.com/AC-motor-blues-tp15773077p15798915.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.



------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 00:31:54 -0800
From: "Cor van de Water" <CWater@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] homebrew switch mode charger - use of PC supply
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID:
<846AFD30A298264EB5671F620101628702ACF30F@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Update on my saga with the Dell power supply 22944200:

I have modified one of my PC supplies to have a current
limiter, so that it can be connected to the pack without
light bulbs - provided that the peak AC input is lower than
the pack voltage at all times.
So, if you use it with 230V input, then the peaks are well
above 300V, so your pack should be above 300V to charge
safely, you may use a step-down transformer to make sure
it is safe at all normal pack voltages.
The modification I made to my PC supply is only a few
components, replacing one resistor and measuring the
current through an output resistor.
Sketch of the circuit is here:
http://www.geocities.com/cor_van_de_water/USE/Dell_supply_current_limit2.GIF

(If the link is broken in two then cut and paste it in
your browser window or first go to
http://www.geocities.com/cor_van_de_water/USE/
and then click on the file Dell_supply_current_limit2.GIF

Note that the voltage across the add-on circuit can become
over 80V so make sure the capacitor is at least a 100V
film capacitor or so.

Note: the 0.1 ohm resistor is already on the board, next
to the 2-pin connector.
That is the area where the changes can be added, as the
191k resistor that needs to be removed is right next to
the 0.1 resistor, closest to the big black capacitor.

Success,

Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: CWater@... Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: cor_van_de_water@...
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb

-----Original Message-----
From: Cor van de Water
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 11:56 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: RE: [EVDL] homebrew switch mode charger - use of PC supply

First of all: the following description is about a high voltage device which can
hurt you and potentially kill. Do not attempt if you are not comfortable working
with devices that carry full grid voltage and higher. Use this information at
your own risk.

With that behind us, I did not use the standard cheap ATX supply, because that
device can literally fail anytime, it is too poorly constructed. The supplies
that fell into my lap were from a Dell Server with redundant hot-swappable power
supplies, each 700W and wide-input (100 - 240V AC). It has Dell model nr
22944200

After opening one, I found that it has two PCB boards:
1. PFC:
rectify incoming AC to 130 ~ 300V DC with ripple and a PFC circuit which uses
a boost-converter that is supplied with a sinus-modulated PWM which causes it
to draw a sinus-shaped current, in sync with the voltage, so that it has power
factor better than 0.99 and which has an output that is 400V with some AC
ripple from the varying current.
Only magnetics on this board are inductors.
2. DC/DC converter:
this takes the 400V from board 1 and has switchers and transformers to create
3.3, 5 and 12V from the 400V input.
The second board also provides the galvanic isolation, as the PFC is simply a
booster with a input, coil and a FET switch to *ground*, so the current that is
built-up can flow out of the coil and charge the output capacitor via a diode as
soon as the FET stops conducting.

The PFC controller that is used in board 1 is very well documented in its
datasheet from ON semi, including 3 reference designs for PFC from 80W to 450W,
apparently Dell uses it with minor mods and some additional glue logic around
the MC34262 part to make the 700W PFC:
www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/MC34262-D.PDF
As remarked before, this does not give isolation: during charge, your pack is
connected to the grid. Use a good grounding wire and/or GFCI according to your
regulations.

I remove the 2nd board and use the 400V output, run this through a set of
parallel bulbs to get the output voltage and current I want.
Typically my pack starts charging around 320V, so the bulbs get 80V and I must
make sure that the current stays a little under 2A at all times, as each power
supply is rated for 700W.
You can parallel as many of these as you want, the safest way is to give each
supply its own set of bulbs, I use 3 bulbs of 75W, you may also use 2 bulbs of
100W to stay under 2A as long as your battery is at least 280V or so.

Note that the output voltage can rather simply be modified, as the PFC has a
voltage divider that determines the feedback to the PFC controller chip. Look
for two series-resistors of around 190kOhm each on the Dell board, the ref
design has 1.6 MOhm, from the output caps to the controller feedback input.
If you lower those resistors, the output voltage also drops.
It can never get lower than the peak AC input though, because then the PFC stops
working and the current will flow in peaks straight through the inductor and
diode to the output caps. No boost means no PFC and you are back to a bad-boy.
at 120V AC input, you should not go lower than about 180V output.
At 240V input, you should not modify the output to go lower than about 350V
output from the supply, unless you add a step-down transformer in front of the
supply.
That is my main reason for using a set of bulbs: it is more efficient to make
the supply current-limited by adding a circuit that pulls on the feedback
signal, to make the PFC chip throttle back to the actual battery voltage, but if
I plug into 240V then I can't charge my 312V pack, because the AC peaks are
higher than where the pack starts.
With the bulbs, I stay at the standard 400V output and the bulbs eat the
difference, my pack gets automatically charged up to 390V.

The setup is real simple: AC --- board 1 --- 2 bulbs parallel --- battery pack.
the AC can be 90 to 250V AC, each board 1 draws a max of 700W so you can use 2
on 110V to plug into a standard US outlet NEMA 5-15, while you can use many
parallel boards and bulbs on 240V, because each board wil only draw 3A from the
outlet.
Board 1 delivers 400V to the bulbs. When you use standard 120V bulbs, then you
must have a battery pack higher than 280V or you will burn out the bulb, because
they see the difference between the supply voltage and the pack.
this setup will waste about 10 to 15% of energy in the bulbs in my case, but the
lower your pack voltage, the higher the voltage drop and the more energy is
wasted, so if you want to charge a 72V pack, it makes no sense to start from
400V and drop 330V in lightbulbs, because you just created a 76% wasteful
charger (24% efficient). You better use a 72V charger or 6 12V chargers.

NOTE that this PFC design can be modified for other voltages and power levels.
I expect that is exactly what Rich is doing to make his PFC chargers.
It so happens that I found a cheap and easy way to get a PFC-2 charger and by
paralleling, I get a decent charge current at a very low cost.

Another note: the cooling fan is powered by board 2 (12V) so you need to find
another way to power it (for example from the aux battery) because board 1 needs
cooling.

Hope this clarifies.

Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: CWater@... Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: cor_van_de_water@...
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb

-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf Of
dannym@...
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 6:28 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] homebrew switch mode charger

Well, first question to ask is if you really need isolation. If not, there are
plenty of buck/boost power supply chips out there with "reference designs" for
constant voltage, current-limited switching supplies. They are fairly
straightforward if you follow the design. Do not mess around with thinking you
don't need this-or-that or that an electrolytic will work when it specifies
ceramic or whatever. They don't usually put unnecessary parts or unnecessarily
costly parts in reference designs.

There are also plenty of driver chips with reference designs for isolated
chargers with high freq transformers. HF transformers are essential to avoiding
huge 60hz transformers. I mean even 100VA (100W) is sort of a monster. The
problem is that transformers must generally be custom designed and wound for the
task and that gets to be problematic for many home builders. There are many
issues of skin effect, core losses, core saturation, core material selection,
I2R wire losses, not having enough room for the wire, having too much room not
covered by wire, and winding technique to consider and there's not a quick way
to learn how to work this stuff out. Plus with the wire and core involved it's
definitely gonna be the most expensive thing on the board.

Danny

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On
> Behalf Of David Rowe
> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 10:30 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: [EVDL] homebrew switch mode charger
>
> Hi - I would like to build an EV charger. Switch mode if possible for
efficiency but any design is OK. Could any one please point me at any homebrew
designs out there? I have a 144V pack of 12 x 75AH Yellow Tops I would like to
charge.
>
> To get started something low power (< 1 kW) is quite OK. In fact I would
rather start that way to lower the risks.
>
> Thanks,
>
> David



------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 10:08:11 +0100
From: "vehiculeselectriques.free.fr" <vehiculeselectriques@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] What is in a Zilla controller ? Why do they sell
for $2K ?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID:
<26b183510803030108l8a2f4adj3320b9fc38642ecf@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

*What is in a Zilla controller ? Why do they sell for $2K ?*

this question as already been answered, here it is an oppened Zilla:

http://www.koreus.com/video/hamster-super-rapide.html

now you know why

Philippe


------------------------------

Message: 16
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 11:47:20 +0000
From: "Evan Tuer" <evan.tuer@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Extending the range
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID:
<cc7432af0803030347r51c055cfs5526e3ef88e141ff@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 4:28 PM, John G. Lussmyer <Cougar@...> wrote:
> Okay, so here I have a Sparrow with a 2KW range extender generator.
> The combination will barely make my 32 mile, one way, commute with a 80%
> discharge. (I can recharge at work.)
> (and even at that, I really dislike it. Noisy, smelly, etc...)
> Now I find that my company is going to move later this year, upping my
> commute to 55 miles ONE WAY!
>
> So, either I find a battery pack that can provide 100AH of useable
> power, or I give up on my Sparrow.

Buy 13 of these: Valence U24-12XP - 12.8V 100AH, dimensions 260x173x225 mm.
Live happily ever after, the end!

(That gives you 300Wh per mile to play with, which is enough for a
truck to go 55 miles, and should be twice as much as you need for a
Sparrow: if not, throw it away and get something better.)



------------------------------

Message: 17
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 12:20:30 +0000
From: "Evan Tuer" <evan.tuer@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Speaking of cheap lithium (not for bipolar
disease)
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID:
<cc7432af0803030420u5e5aa265h9153d9166f1dbca1@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Mon, Mar 3, 2008 at 7:24 AM, <cowtown@...> wrote:
> If you don't mind a 60A peak, check out eBay item 110229175929 for a
> 48V/20Ah pack of LiFePO4 batteries from China, starting bid under
> $0.50/Whr - I am not sure which is worse, the duct-tape packaging or
> their translation software.

I bought a similar looking pack and charger (although 24V) for my
electric bike. It works very well.



------------------------------

Message: 18
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 08:02:10 -0500
From: "TrotFox Greyfoot" <trotfox@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cables in Cabin
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID:
<313597fd0803030502v243310efp962a543d439db3dd@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Mark,

You have piked my curiosity.

Why will a person have difficulty registering an EV in Australia if
the main power cables are run through the cabin? ALL of my Fiero's
front-to-rear wiring runs through the cabin and I know of several of
them that are converted to RHD and registered in Australia...

Trot, the wondering, fox...

On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 11:40 PM, Mark Fowler <mark.just.mark@...> wrote:
> You will have a hard time registering it in Australia if you run the
> cables inside the cabin.


--
| /\_/\ TrotFox \ Always remember,
| ( o o ) AKA Landon Solomon \ "There is a
| >\_/< trotfox@... \ third alternative."



------------------------------

Message: 19
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 08:03:59 -0500
From: "jerryd" <jerryd@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sparrow Extending the range
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <47cbf73f.364.4aaa.335704335@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"



Hi Evan, John and All,

----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Evan Tuer" <evan.tuer@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Extending the range
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 11:47:20 +0000

>On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 4:28 PM, John G. Lussmyer
>> <Cougar@...> wrote: Okay, so here I have a
>> Sparrow with a 2KW range extender generator. The
>combination will barely make my 32 mile, one way, commute
>> with a 80% discharge. (I can recharge at work.)
>> (and even at that, I really dislike it. Noisy, smelly,
>> etc...) Now I find that my company is going to move
>> later this year, upping my commute to 55 miles ONE WAY!
>>
>> So, either I find a battery pack that can provide 100AH
>> of useable power, or I give up on my Sparrow.
>
>Buy 13 of these: Valence U24-12XP - 12.8V 100AH, dimensions
>260x173x225 mm. Live happily ever after, the end!

While this looks like a good solution on paper, it
has several problems.
The Sparrow is narrow and somewhat high CG. If you
replace the lead batts with lighter ones, you'll raise the
CG, making it harder to drive, having to slow much more in
turns and have to be more careful about emergency maneuvers
or any quick steering input. Also driving while turning in
reverse even slowly on a slope. A wider and/or lower CG
3wheeler doesn't have such a problem but the Sparrow does.
He could put say 50-150 lb ballast as forward, low as
possible to make up and even handle better than stock. I'd
add 50 lbs there even on a regular lead Sparrow to help
handling, safety. Or maybe a A123 add on pack if it has
room.
Most Sparrows have Raptor or Zilla controllers and
the Valance does not like to put out much amps/power. So
he'll have to at least turn down the amps from the batteries
and accept much lower acceleration.
Cost is rather large, guessing $16k though could be
off a bunch to the low side. As they have not been very
robust, dying early, that can be very costly. Other than
those things, it's a good idea ;^P If going Li-ion other
ones, even TS would be a better choice I'd think due to much
lower costs, same or lower risk. YMMV
A Nicad/lead/li-ion battery aero trailer using one
or 2 wheels with very low CG is probably his best shot
keeping it EV at a reasonable price. The Sparrow does have
the power to pull it.
You might want to put this post on the Sparrow list
John. I'm a member but don't post except once a while ago
about belts because I'm not an owner, in fact a future
competitor. I do it mostly for belt, sprocket, other info
that might be helpful in the Freedom EV.

Jerry Dycus


>
>(That gives you 300Wh per mile to play with, which is
>enough for a truck to go 55 miles, and should be twice as
>much as you need for a Sparrow: if not, throw it away and
>get something better.)
>
>_______________________________________________
>For subscription options, see
>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



------------------------------

Message: 20
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 13:32:00 +0000
From: "Evan Tuer" <evan.tuer@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sparrow Extending the range
To: jerryd@..., "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
<ev@...>
Message-ID:
<cc7432af0803030532h4bbea22ci8d8e1ee2edc0fa6b@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Mon, Mar 3, 2008 at 1:03 PM, jerryd <jerryd@...> wrote:

> >> So, either I find a battery pack that can provide 100AH
> >> of useable power, or I give up on my Sparrow.
> >
> >Buy 13 of these: Valence U24-12XP - 12.8V 100AH, dimensions
> >260x173x225 mm. Live happily ever after, the end!
>
> While this looks like a good solution on paper, it
> has several problems.

As does everything :) But I do think it's a one-stop solution to a
problem which seems to have been occupying all of John's free time
since about 2005, if his posts to the EVDL are anything to go by :)

> He could put say 50-150 lb ballast as forward, low as
> possible to make up and even handle better than stock. I'd
> add 50 lbs there even on a regular lead Sparrow to help
> handling, safety.

I was thinking of suggesting to leave in a couple of the Optimas as
forward as possible. Your idea of a properly sited ballast block
(like a plate on the underside) would be better though, as it's
probably tight for space. Anyway, good point but it's not a
show-stopper.

> Most Sparrows have Raptor or Zilla controllers and
> the Valance does not like to put out much amps/power. So
> he'll have to at least turn down the amps from the batteries
> and accept much lower acceleration.

True, but at 300 battery amps, he'd still have 45kW for acceleration.
I'd say that's more than adequate for a light vehicle with
questionable traction, in fact I'd probably set the limit to 150 or
200A to be on the safe side (from the battery point of view). It'll
still have loads of motor current at low speed to compensate for the
single ratio drive.

> Cost is rather large, guessing $16k though could be
> off a bunch to the low side.

Yes, closer to $20k these days I think. But, how much has John spent
in both money and time on this so far, and still doesn't have a good
solution?
It's very expensive of course, but if you want volumetric energy
density off the shelf, this appears to be the price.

> As they have not been very robust, dying early, that can be very costly.

Jerry, if you've got any more info on real-world behaviour of these
(i.e. what backs up that statement), I'd love to hear it, off-list if
you prefer.

Cheers
Evan



------------------------------

Message: 21
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 08:33:47 EST
From: DOCTORDHD@...
Subject: [EVDL] Multiple chargers?
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <d38.21d9ac3c.34fd583b@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Anyone on the list using multiple charges, one for each battery, to get
around the battery balancing act?

Thank you,

Dave Delman
1981 Electric DeLorean Project
electricdelorean.com



**************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living.
(http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/
2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)


------------------------------

Message: 22
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 23:09:05 -0700
From: "Roland Wiench" <ev_7@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Alternator driven by wheel or axleshaft?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <BAY114-DAV81D2E61994F1F5057D415BE170@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Hello Andy,

Some alternators need about 1000 rpm to excited it. Normally a engine has a
6 inch pulley and the alternator has a 3 inch pulley, so if the engine is up
to 500 rpm, then the alternator is at 1000 rpm.

Lets say the transmission 1st gear is about a 4:1 ratio, than your motor rpm
would have to be 4000 rpm for a 1000 rpm out put. Now if you have a further
reduction of about 8:1, then the alternator will excited at 500 motor rpm.

Axles only go about 1000 rpm if your motor is at about 6000 rpm with a 10:1
overall gear ratio which is about 100 miles per hour.

A drive line after the transmission has about a 2000 rpm limit in 1st gear.
You want to able to have your alternator generating power as soon as
possible by keeping the overall gear ratio as low as possible while you are
doing low speed driving of 30 mph or under or the alternator will never come
up to voltage.

It may be possible to add a motor shaft extension on your motor. This is
done by drilling a hole for the same size motor shaft, in the motor face.
The shaft is tapped for a harden threaded stud like the type that is use for
engine heads. The shaft extension is also tapped in the extension shaft.
Use a as large as stud as possible which will be in the range of 9/16 to 5/8
inch bolt thread size.

You can use a seal around the shaft, something like a transmission output
seal.

You then can put on a solid steel industrial pulley that is about 6 inches
in diameter. It is best to a use a cog belt, because it will wear better in
making the transition from the 3 to 6 inch.

Some people with ADC motors have done this shaft extension, which is
normally call the motor pilot shaft.

Roland




----- Original Message -----
From: <andy@...>
To: "EV List Submissions" <ev@...>
Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2008 9:07 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Alternator driven by wheel or axleshaft?


> Hi Gang - hope you can help me with this quandry
>
> I'm scared out of my wits to try again with a DC/DC after something went
> wrong with my first one and fried my controller. This is an Azure AC
> drive kit that requires 12v input - the controller is not isolated from
> ground.
>
> CC Power replaced the converter, but I've left it in the box.
>
> The Azure motor does not have a rear output, so My new idea is to drive
> an alternator off the right driveshaft (FWD Mazda 323) or one of the
> rear wheels. Has anyone tried a setup like this? Successfully? What
> parts did you use? Please send pictures.
>
>
> IF I should stick with the DC/DC kit, is there a package I could buy
> that would assure that no high voltage crosses over? I hear folks
> mention diodes, etc, but I want something engineered by someone other
> than me!
>
>
> Thanks all!
> Andy
> Ames, IA
>
> www.evalbum.com/1473
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



------------------------------

Message: 23
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 15:23:51 +0100 (CET)
From: Seppo Lindborg <sepplind@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ng efficiency, Li-ion, lead batt, Fast Charging
facts... do you really need tha fast charging ???
To: <ev@...>
Message-ID:
<29269881.1204554231348.JavaMail.apache@...>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-15"

I second Jukka from my practical experience. My Clio (http://www.
evalbum.com/1526) has a 122 V 200 Ah lithium pack. To date observed
driving range is 147 km (in wintertime, with winter tyres, heater on,
not so careful driving) so I guess it could be called a 100-mile pack.
The motor power is 21 kW so the max discharge rate is only 1C. With
this it performs very well in city traffic, just like its ICE
colleagues. After 70 km/h the acceleration starts to be a bit sluggish,
but not disturbingly much. The top speed is 100 km/h which is enough
for the usual 80-km/h routes that I use.

I wholly agree with the freedom feeling. My commute is 80 kms (50
miles) to-and-fro. After doing the day's commuting there is yet enough
charge to go to the grocery and drive kids to their activities. No need
to keep a cautious eye on the SoC display. The experience is quite from
another world compared to what I had with lead-acid and NiCd.

Seppo


>----Alkuper?inen viesti----
>L?hett?j?: jukka.jarvinen@...
>P?iv?m??r?: 01.03.2008 12:12
>Vastaanottaja: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"<ev@...>
>Aihe: Re: [EVDL] ng efficiency, Li-ion, lead batt, Fast Charging
facts... do you really need tha fast charging ???
>
>Power has been ok for years already. Actually... 2C is more than
>perfect. Why ?
>
>My opinion is that any EV should go at least 100 miles per charge.
So
>with 1C that would be nearly 100 mph. Not average road speed around
here...
>
>320 Wh/mile would be only 32 kWh for 100 miles. If that would be
valid,
>say for first 60 000 miles, original pack should be around 40 kWh.
100
>pcs of LCP-100 would do perfectly.
>
>Of course it cost money ($15-20 k) but having 150 mile pack in a car
>is... an experience of freedom. I can drive without thinking about
the
>SOC. I drive as normal car.
>
>Actually we made some calculations here for a such EV and it looks
the
>break even point will come already around 60 k miles. Then EV will
save
>your money from that day. For me that is in about 2 years. Not a bad
>investment at all. See... I'm talking about EVs as an investment
already :)
>
>Thou I have to admit that I have ran out electrons with even these
>packs. :) Few times out of gas too and that's stupid. 750 mile on
one
>fill up and STILL I can run out of it. I think this is not a
technical
>problem anymore.
>
>Things are changing in overall. I had a very exciting meeting with
>biggest grocery store chain in here and thay had very open mind.
Idea
>was to arrange charging stations in every store they have. That
would
>generate a grid of charging posts. You could not even drive over 60
>miles and not to be on the 9kW charger post.
>
>This will work in here but not perhaps in EVery contry..
>
>-Jukka
>
>
>




------------------------------

Message: 24
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 06:46:25 -0800
From: "RightHand Engineering" <RightHandEng@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Questions for Randy Richmond about truck EV, was
Re: Non-isolated DC/DC converter
To: "Dave \(Battery Boy\) Hawkins" <thehawkeye@...>,
"Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <BAY109-DAV20CDA4F3AD47D115FA5782C0170@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original

Hello Dave,
In regards to the lugs - indeed I am using 2/0 battery cable. Based on
initial recommendations from Cafe Electric and Canadian EV (their first
experience with the Zilla) I had set the max battery current at 400 Amps. I
wasn't pleased with the acceleration so I asked Trojan what max amps I
should be able to draw. they said they test each battery at 500 amps, and
design them to handle 1000. They sent me a document showing that the real
limit is the IR drop in the battery terminal-to-cable connection. It has
some photos showing where the heat really occured. Trojan's document
recommended both crimp & solder to avoid high IR drop. But after seeing my
article in Home Power, Canadian EV, with more Zilla experience under their
belt, talked me into upping the Amps to 550. Its made a world of difference
in acceration, and so far no problems with my crimp-only battery terminals
(but I did use a pro tool for the crimps). Now I am glad to have the T-145s
in the vehicle.

In regards to the tires - I myself have labeled these Regatta II tires Low
Rolling Resistance - LRR because compared to the factory Tiger Paw tires I
had (32 PSI), these 44 PSI tires make it MUCH easier to steer with my manual
steering. There were the best tires I could find to fit my factory rims (I
couldn't find any in my size that was on the unofficial LRR list). I regret
that I never took a base line measurement prior to changing tires, otherwise
I would have hard facts on the range improvement these tires made. Perhaps
these Regatta II tires are not as LRR as others that fit your Prius - you
are lucky to have a rim size that have "official" LRR rated tires available
for them. BTW- as of yet tire manufacturer's don't specify the actual
rolling resistance (that may change soon). So the only place to get those
figures is from third-party organizations who've measured it. And they don't
measure all tires - the seem to only measure sizes that fit economy
vehicles.

In regards to the range & wh/mile... My range is exactly where Canadian EV
said it would be. They are in the same kind of terrain I am in - plenty of
steep hills. I suppose if I was in the mid-west I could go 60 miles, but not
here in the hilly Seattle area. Also, I've got an extended cab which adds
about 300lb to the curb weight. As far as the Wh/mile I have discovered that
my Zivan charger was seriously overcharging my batteries, spending at least
1.5 hours in exceeding the equalization voltage (even taking into account
temperature compensation) each and every charge cycle. By my calculations, I
was wasting at least 18% of my AC current on this over charging.

Regards,
Randy Richmond
2001 GMC Sonoma EV Conversion
http://www.evalbum.com/1253


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <thehawkeye@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2008 5:54 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Questions for Randy Richmond about truck EV, was Re:
Non-isolated DC/DC converter


> Randy (and All),
> After reading the Home Power article and re-reading your album entry, I
> wanted to mention that it's a good thing you did not go with T-105's, or
> even T-125's, for your truck conversion. I got 20,000 miles out of 145
> floodies because they are much more robust at the higher EV currents.
> Also, your range of 40 miles and Wh/mile of 700 would indicate that
> something is seriously wrong. You mention undersized wire and lugs, but I
> would think that a kit made for a truck would have come with 2/0 wire and
> Magna lugs. Over the 20,000 miles of living with 145's, I think I averaged
> at most 450-500 Wh/mile at the AC plug, measured with a dedicated utility
> style KWh meter. I was also charging with a Zivan for most of these miles,
> and both a Zivan and a FrankenLester for some bulk charging. This would
> sometimes include pulling any thing from a small utility trailer to an
> eighteen foot car hauler! And without a trailer I could do 60 miles, which
> should be easy with 1700 pounds of lead! Also!
> , I didn't realize that the Goodyear Regatta II was a LRR tire. I had put
> these on the wife-unit's Prius and have had a belt separation with
> remaining tread, so I now call them Regreta's! Of course the Goodyear
> Integrity tires that came on the Prius I now call Un-Integrity, with only
> a 30K life after religious rotations and air pressure checks...
> Keep on trucking and Suck Amps,
> BB
>
> -----Forwarded Message-----
>>From: "Dave (Battery Boy) Hawkins"
>>Sent: Mar 2, 2008 12:23 PM
>>
>>Randy (and All),
>>I have an older S10 conversion with floodies, loosely based on the EV's of
>>America documentation. After checking out your album link below, what an
>>awesome truck conversion (except for the batteries in the bed!), and I'll
>>have to read the articles you mention, which I noticed are linked from the
>>Canadian EV site:
>>http://www.canev.com/KitsComp/S10Kit/S10-Kit.html
>>Anyway, I have a Zivan NG3, and was curious about your Zivan NG5 album
>>note: "with high-low charge selection switch to allow charging from 120 V,
>>15 A circuit via step-up transformer". Did your Zivan come with this
>>option (by CANEV?), or did you add it yourself? Also, is the motor adapter
>>a taper lock, did you get the pre-wired control boxes for additional $,
>>and did the install go well with good documentation?
>>Thanks for your time and Suck Amps,
>>BB
>>
>>>Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 12:33:16 -0800
>>>From: "RightHand Engineering"
>>>
>>>Steven,
>>>If you plan to use the DC-to-DC to run your 12 volt accessories from the
>>>traction batteries, you definately want it isolated. Your 12 volt
>>>accessories will be chassis grounded, and for safety sake you DON'T want
>>>your traction batteries connected to chassis. Without isolation you will
>>>end
>>>up with one side of the traction pack chassis grounded.
>>>
>>>Randy Richmond
>>>2001 GMC Sonoma DC EV Conversion
>>>http://www.evalbum.com/1253
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



------------------------------

Message: 25
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 7:43:04 -0700
From: Tim Humphrey <hump@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sealed battery behavior.
To: EV <ev@...>
Message-ID: <5b317d1c94d50fef6ac65100b1166c96@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"



>
> Yes, I know this. However, I have added water to many "sealed" batteries
> anyway, if they have vented and lost water. Sometimes it's easy; on
> Concorde, MK, and Powersonic AGMs you can pry off the cover or vent
> caps, add water, and replace them. On others it's a challenge; Optima
> and Hawker AGMs generally require drilling holes to add water, which
> must be plugged afterward. >
> The only thing new is the history you don't know yet. -- Harry Truman
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


Hawker Genesis and Odyssey batteries can be refilled without drilling, I'm not
sure about the SBS'. I suspect that any (rectangular) battery labelled as VRLA
has access to it's vents under a top cover.

--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"If you don't "believe" you'll make a difference, than you probably never will!"
-- Jim Husted




------------------------------

Message: 26
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 07:09:55 -0800
From: Jeff Shanab <jshanab@...>
Subject: [EVDL] AC motor blues
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <47CC14C3.7010707@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

David Davidson said "No, you're confusing a PWM controller for a brushed DC
motor with a BLDC controller (or else, I'm reading your comment wrong). Like
the AC controller, the BLDC controller adjusts frequency to control motor speed.
"

Uh, I thought the PWM freq was used to determine the torque to create rotation.
That when the rotation occurred, a hall sensor (or current sensing in unused
leg) then causes the commutation to the next step.



------------------------------

Message: 27
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 07:27:01 -0800
From: Jeff Shanab <jshanab@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] What is in a Zilla controller ? Why do they sell
for $2K?
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <47CC18C5.9020301@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Selling a finished product in the united states contains liability. We
made air jacks for cars for a company, part of the price was for
liability. In that case it just about doubled the price and ended up
killing the product.

If you want to provide a warranty, one method is to charge enough to
replace it(sears tools), another way is to pay for warranty insurance.
Taking the risk that things won't break and hince break you is too much
of a gamble.

1) I want Otmar and Curtis to be able to stay in buisness. That means I
want them to make a profit so they want to stay in it.
2) I want them to cover their warranties. They have to stay in buisness
to do this, see 1.
3) I want them to progress onto new products. The trizilla! who hooo
4) I want them to develop tools and equipment to lower their prices.
This takes an investment. I have been in a company that wouldn't do
these things, they closed their doors.

So Dan, when you are selling a product, standing behind it, and are
making a "sufficient effort" to ensure safety (as described by law),
Only then will we be able to make a comparison.

BTW, I have seen the prints for the copper in the zilla, I tried to
convince my company that they should quote the job. We ended up haveing
a sudden influx of work so it didn't happen, but there is more into
making the zilla than your underestimated BOM. (Yes an NDA was signed,
so don't ask about details)

How is your controller coming? (seriously, not sarcastic)



------------------------------

Message: 28
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 09:29:18 -0600
From: "Morgan LaMoore" <morganl@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] AC motor blues
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID:
<4230c7190803030729h1f1be210s4a09c376ef4d9d03@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

The PWM duty cycle is used to determine the torque. The PWM frequency
is usually a constant. Other than that, you've got it.

However, I think David was talking about the frequency of the signal
seen by the motor, which is probably less than 400Hz.

In EV AC controllers, you don't control the commutation frequency to
control speed; that would just get you out of sync or use way too much
current as you accelerate. Instead, you control the magnitude of the
motor's current, which controls torque, and you make the frequency and
phase of the motor's current follow the mechanical position.

-Morgan LaMoore

On Mon, Mar 3, 2008 at 9:09 AM, Jeff Shanab <jshanab@...> wrote:
> Uh, I thought the PWM freq was used to determine the torque to create
rotation. That when the rotation occurred, a hall sensor (or current sensing in
unused leg) then causes the commutation to the next step.



------------------------------

Message: 29
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 08:53:51 -0700
From: "Mark Eidson" <mark.eidson@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Multiple chargers?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID:
<a15dadc40803030753r4b94db6w23c09296bf0d2bbb@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

That is exactly what I do. I have only 6 batteries so it is not too
expensive. I use the 25A chargers recommended by Odyssey for the
PC1500. They provide SOC and voltage monitoring as well as charging
with the optimum algo for the battery. The only down side is that I
have to switch each unit into charge mode to start charging so I can't
use a timer to turn them on. These isolated units are not mounted on
my motorcycle. I made a custom cable with one connector pair to ease
hooking up the chargers to the batteries. me

On 3/3/08, DOCTORDHD@... <DOCTORDHD@...> wrote:
> Anyone on the list using multiple charges, one for each battery, to get
> around the battery balancing act?
>
> Thank you,
>
> Dave Delman
> 1981 Electric DeLorean Project
> electricdelorean.com
>
>
>
> **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living.
>
(http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/
> 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



------------------------------

Message: 30
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 08:08:16 -0800
From: cowtown@...
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sparrow Extending the range
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <20080303080816.fw8x4f5r4ggwog8s@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes";
format="flowed"

> Jerry, if you've got any more info on real-world behaviour of these
> (i.e. what backs up that statement), I'd love to hear it, off-list if
> you prefer.

You'd have to check the EVDL archives - an owner was backing up in his
driveway (i.e. not very fast) and managed to flip!



------------------------------

Message: 31
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 08:10:30 -0800
From: cowtown@...
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sparrow Extending the range
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <20080303081030.6jk9ns9wyskkgs80@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes";
format="flowed"

<<<< Cost is rather large, guessing $16k though could be
off a bunch to the low side. As they have not been very
robust, dying early, that can be very costly. Other than
those things, it's a good idea ;^P If going Li-ion other
ones, even TS would be a better choice I'd think due to much
lower costs, same or lower risk. YMMV >>>>

Yeah, at that price, you could convert a 100mi lead-acid truck (don't
forget the red paint job).



------------------------------

Message: 32
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 16:29:29 +0000
From: "Evan Tuer" <evan.tuer@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sparrow Extending the range
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID:
<cc7432af0803030829x40dbb20cwcd610fe3e341a0e1@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Mon, Mar 3, 2008 at 4:08 PM, <cowtown@...> wrote:


> > > As they have not been very robust, dying early, that can be very costly.
> >
> > Jerry, if you've got any more info on real-world behaviour of these
> > (i.e. what backs up that statement), I'd love to hear it, off-list if
> > you prefer.
>
> You'd have to check the EVDL archives - an owner was backing up in his
> driveway (i.e. not very fast) and managed to flip!

I remember it well, but what's that got to do with the real-world
behaviour of Valence batteries?



------------------------------

Message: 33
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 08:32:00 -0800
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <Cougar@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sparrow Extending the range
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <47CC2800.4000308@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

cowtown@... wrote:
> Yeah, at that price, you could convert a 100mi lead-acid truck (don't
> forget the red paint job).
>

Which is what I'm considering as an alternative.
I'd loose the Ferry line advantage of the Sparrow (which is a BIG
advantage), but I'd be able to use it more since I frequently make trips
to the lumber yard.



------------------------------

Message: 34
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 10:59:12 -0600
From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] What is in a Zilla controller ? Why do they sell
for $2K ?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <47CC2E60.2090802@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Alan Petrillo wrote:
> I've seen a lot of equipment that uses a "serial terminal" for
> configuration, even though fewer and fewer laptops are coming with
> serial ports. I suppose you could connect to them using a USB to Serial
> cable, but the control over those things is often far from precise.
> I've bricked a modem trying to reflash its firmware through a USB to
> Serial cable.
>
> The question I have for all of these manufacturers is since the USB
> chipsets are available all over the place, and fairly cheap, why not
> just make the interface USB?
>
> What am I missing?

I think there are two reasons.

The first is complexity. USB is at least an order of magnitude more
complex than RS-232. A microcomputer is required to communicate. This
increases the design time, requires more complex circuitry, more
software development, etc. It takes time away from designing the actual
product itself.

The second is that USB is the flavor of the week. It will be gone in a
few years, replaced by the new flavor next week. It's already gone
through several revisions, there are several different connectors, and
new versions are already being developed. Who says what you develop
today will still work in 5 years?

Plain old RS-232 serial has been around for over 40 years. It has become
an entrenched standard, so even if your new computer doesn't have it,
you can get a whatever-to-RS232 adapter.

I agree that many of these adapters don't work right. Cheap badly
designed products are all too common. I suspect the problems are on the
USB side, as RS-232 is so simple that it would take a pretty incompetent
engineer to get it wrong.

--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net



------------------------------

_______________________________________________
EV@...
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

End of EV Digest, Vol 8, Issue 9
********************************