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#37625 From: ev-request@...
Date: Mon Nov 9, 2009 8:00 pm
Subject: EV Digest, Vol 28, Issue 12 		ev-request@...
Send Email Send Email
  
Send EV mailing list submissions to
	 ev@...

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	 http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	 ev-request@...

You can reach the person managing the list at
	 ev-owner@...

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of EV digest..."


  Also, please be careful not to append the entire digest to your reply. Many
mail systems do this by default. Trim or delete the digest text from the bottom
of your message, and quote only the parts to which you're replying.



Today's Topics:

    1. Re: HV fuse placement in Sky/TS traction pack (joe)
    2. Re: ZillaConfig (Eric Poulsen)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 11:26:07 -0800
From: "joe" <joe@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] HV fuse placement in Sky/TS traction pack
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <814B91A0DBCE4BAAADED96523ABA30F4@Sales>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original

I started out with a 150A on the 312V Mustang, then went to a 200A after the
fuse blew (drawing only 10 amps at the time!). Azure spec'ed a 150A on their
DMOC455.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: joe@...


----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob Trahms" <rtrahms@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 9:54 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] HV fuse placement in Sky/TS traction pack


>
>
> Thanks Lee, that is great info - I kinda figured they were too big!
> Live and learn (and spend as I go!)...
>
> The fuse block and the mounting ideas are good - I can do that.
> Suggestions on fuse sizes?  My pack will have 53 SE100AHAs in series, and
> worst
> case is 3C-4C draw from the pack.
>
> Rob
>
>
> Lee Hart wrote:
>>
>> Rob Trahms wrote:
>>  >> I have 2 Ferraz-Shawmut 500A fuses in my current pack...these are
>>  >> fairly beefy fuses, similar to a D-cell in size. I have 2/0 cabling
>>  >> between batteries now... What have folks done for fusing in this
>>  >> case?
>>
>> First thought: 500 amps is too big for 2/0 cable and normal batteries
>> and controllers. The 500a fuse will carry 1000 amps for many seconds
>> before it blows, by which time your batteries, controller, or wiring may
>> have already failed!
>>
>> On mounting fuses. Joe Strubhar's idea is a good one -- use a commercial
>> fuseholder. As an alternative, I have also used junction blocks. See for
>> example www.waytekwire.com stock# 47211 or 47213.
>>
>> Joseph H. Strubhar wrote:
>>> I bought a fuseblock for the Mustang - not cheap, and you have to
>>> mount it (it's rather large). But a nice solution for the purpose.
>>>
>>> I'm only using one between the pack positive and the controller - the
>>> fuseblock also makes a good place to attach various smaller wires to
>>> the pack positive
>>
>> A fuseholder is a good investment. But I'd be cautious about attaching
>> many different-sized wires to the same set screw terminal. It's easy to
>> have one or more of them make a bad connection and not know it.
>>
>> Also, be sure to include smaller fuses for the smaller wires. One of the
>> (many) reasons for a fuse is to protect the wiring from overheating and
>> catching fire. A 500amp main fuse won't protect a little #18 wire going
>> off to some pack voltage measurement circuit.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
>> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
>> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
>> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
>
http://n4.nabble.com/HV-fuse-placement-in-Sky-TS-traction-pack-tp584961p585039.h\
tml
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.57/2492 - Release Date: 11/09/09
12:11:00



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 11:42:07 -0800
From: Eric Poulsen <eric@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ZillaConfig
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4AF8708F.9050401@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Seems most people consider Excel to be a database (which it isn't),
rather than a spreadsheet.  Just trying to point out a gotcha before
people use it.

John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> Or you can use my DataView program which doesn't have silly low limits
> like that.
> http://casadelgato.com/DataView.html
>
>



------------------------------

_______________________________________________
EV@...
For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



End of EV Digest, Vol 28, Issue 12
**********************************

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (1)
#37626 From: Julie Miller <noreply@...>
Date: Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:12 pm
Subject: Business Leads / Contacts 		noreply@...
Send Email Send Email
 
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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (1)
#37627 From: ev-request@...
Date: Tue Nov 10, 2009 6:14 pm
Subject: EV Digest, Vol 28, Issue 13 		ev-request@...
Send Email Send Email
  
Send EV mailing list submissions to
	 ev@...

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	 http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	 ev-request@...

You can reach the person managing the list at
	 ev-owner@...

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of EV digest..."


  Also, please be careful not to append the entire digest to your reply. Many
mail systems do this by default. Trim or delete the digest text from the bottom
of your message, and quote only the parts to which you're replying.



Today's Topics:

    1.  Precharging necessary? (Stephen Chapman)
    2. Follow-up service (Richard Rau)
    3. Re: Precharging necessary? (mark at evie-systems)
    4. Re: Precharging necessary? (damon henry)
    5. EVs hit the soaps (K O)
    6. Re: HV fuse placement in Sky/TS traction pack (Lee Hart)
    7. Re: Precharging necessary? (Lee Hart)
    8. Anyone have thermal data for the Sky Energy 100ah cells,
       charge and discharge temp rise? (ianaudio@...)
    9. Re: HV fuse placement in Sky/TS traction pack (Lee Hart)
   10. Re: Precharging necessary? (Stephen Chapman)
   11. Re: Pre-charge Addition (Morgan LaMoore)
   12. Re: HV fuse placement in Sky/TS traction pack (Rob Trahms)
   13. Re: HV fuse placement in Sky/TS traction pack (Rob Trahms)
   14. Re: Pre-charge Addition (Lee Hart)
   15. not enough cash (m gol)
   16. Re: HV fuse placement in Sky/TS traction pack (Robert Johnston)
   17. Re: ZillaConfig (Mike Nickerson)
   18. Re: not enough cash (Mike Nickerson)
   19. Re: HV fuse placement in Sky/TS traction pack (Lee Hart)
   20. Re: Precharging necessary? (Lee Hart)
   21. Re: Anyone have thermal data for the Sky Energy 100ah cells,
       charge and discharge temp rise? (Lee Hart)
   22. Re: Warm air defrost for a Gizmo (Lee Hart)
   23. Re: Warm air defrost for a Gizmo (David Nelson)
   24. Re: Performance vs temperature..........it SUCKS! (David Nelson)
   25. Re: Distance per single charge records (Lee Hart)
   26. Re: DC-DC (Lee Hart)
   27. Re: Precharging necessary? (Evan Tuer)
   28. Re: Anyone have thermal data for the Sky Energy 100ah cells,
       charge and discharge temp rise? (web@...)
   29. Re: not enough cash (Morgan LaMoore)
   30. Re: Precharging necessary? (web@...)
   31. Re: Precharging necessary? (Stephen Chapman)
   32. Re: Warm air defrost for a Gizmo (Lee Hart)
   33. Re: EVs hit the soaps (Bob Rice)
   34. Chrysler No EVs (David Dymaxion)
   35. EV Conversion Battery Tech Seminar (Mike Brown)
   36. Re: Chrysler No EVs (Roger Heuckeroth)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 12:49:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Stephen Chapman <enganear@...>
Subject: [EVDL]  Precharging necessary?
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <1257799783551-585108.post@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


Application: 36V lawn tractor conversion with Curtis 1206 controller and 6.7"
series wound GE motor.
http://www.evalbum.com/2502

I'm wiring this up now, is a precharge resistor necessary for this low
voltage app?

Stephen Chapman
--
View this message in context:
http://n4.nabble.com/Precharging-necessary-tp585108p585108.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 12:56:17 -0800
From: "Richard Rau" <pedalcraft@...>
Subject: [EVDL] Follow-up service
To: <ev@...>
Message-ID: <200911092057.nA9KugQX016757@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I am preparing to do a conversion for a customer who lives quite a distance
from my area, and the question of after-sale support came up.  Sure, I can
talk up the general reliability of a well crafted EV, but I would like to
pass on some additional reassuring comments. This '95 Honda will be carrying
250V of ThunderSky cells with a good BMS. Fine work and cleanly done.  Does
anyone know of qualified EV businesses or individuals in the area south of
San Francisco  (better if close to Palo Alto) that, if asked, would be able
to do some troubleshooting/repair?  For pay of course! Thanks!



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 13:02:38 -0800 (PST)
From: mark at evie-systems <mark@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Precharging necessary?
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <1257800558318-585114.post@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


A pre-charge resistor will not hurt you, and your contactor will thank you,
even for this low-voltage.

If your contactor is "open air", go out to your unit at night with all the
lights off and flip the contactor on, you'll see a neat little blue flash.


Stephen Chapman wrote:
>
> Application: 36V lawn tractor conversion with Curtis 1206 controller and
> 6.7" series wound GE motor.
> http://www.evalbum.com/2502
>
> I'm wiring this up now, is a precharge resistor necessary for this low
> voltage app?
>
> Stephen Chapman
>

--
View this message in context:
http://n4.nabble.com/Precharging-necessary-tp585108p585114.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 21:13:52 +0000
From: damon henry <damonhenry@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Precharging necessary?
To: EV List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <SNT104-W48EDED9A28F15266ED86CACEAC0@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"


The precharge resistor is primarily used to protect the bank of capacitors
inside your controller from huge in rush currents.  Your controller will last
longer with a precharge resistor.  Since a lawn tractor is not something you
will be driving everyday and turning on and off a lot, it may not make that big
of a difference, but I would add it.  For a number of years, the precharge
circuit on my motorcycle was a simple pushbutton momentary switch and a resistor
wired across my main switch.  Before I turned the key on, I simply held this
button down for a few seconds.  In my case I was using an Alltrax controller
which had an LED that indicated when the controller was charged, so once that
lit up I would let go of the button and turn the key.



damon

> Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 12:49:43 -0800
> From: enganear@...
> To: ev@...
> Subject: [EVDL] Precharging necessary?
>
>
> Application: 36V lawn tractor conversion with Curtis 1206 controller and 6.7"
> series wound GE motor.
> http://www.evalbum.com/2502
>
> I'm wiring this up now, is a precharge resistor necessary for this low
> voltage app?
>
> Stephen Chapman
> --
> View this message in context:
http://n4.nabble.com/Precharging-necessary-tp585108p585108.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

_________________________________________________________________
Windows 7: Unclutter your desktop.
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9690331&ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL\
_WIN_evergreen:112009
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------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 13:41:21 -0800 (PST)
From: K O <visualeyes108@...>
Subject: [EVDL] EVs hit the soaps
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <939896.65213.qm@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"


There is a TV soap Opera after the noon news called "B&B"???
Today I walked into the room just as a feamle star was saying to a male star.
"Oh!? I didn't hear you pull up in that quiet ELECTRIC sports car!"? I hear a
controller whine but looked over too late to see if they even SHOWED a car.??
What a great, free product placement for an ELECTRIC sportscar company... I
wonder which company that could be???? hahaha

I don't shop where I can't charge.


?



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------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 16:01:47 -0600
From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] HV fuse placement in Sky/TS traction pack
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4AF8914B.4030802@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

joe wrote:
> Lee, I didn't attach the other wires to the set-screw - The fuseblock has a
> threaded stud that the fuse mounts to - I bought lugs to fit that stud.

Good. That's an advantage for a real fuseholder, with more than one way
to connect wires to it.

> I also have a piece of clear PVC 3" in diameter - I want to make a cover for
> the fuseblock and fuse with that. Saw a short piece in two lengthwise and
> fasten one of the pieces to the top of the block - maybe with tiewraps?

That makes sense. Just be aware that a fuse is a resistor, and gets hot.
If it is too well enclosed, it gets hotter, which lowers it current rating.

--
Lee A. Hart  | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N  | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen



------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 16:10:31 -0600
From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Precharging necessary?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4AF89357.6060007@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Stephen Chapman wrote:
> Application: 36V lawn tractor conversion with Curtis 1206 controller and 6.7"
> series wound GE motor.
> http://www.evalbum.com/2502
>
> I'm wiring this up now, is a precharge resistor necessary for this low
> voltage app?

I would use one. It's job is to extend the life of the main contactor
and the controller's capacitors, which applies for any pack voltage.

--
Lee A. Hart  | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N  | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen



------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 14:43:09 -0800
From: <ianaudio@...>
Subject: [EVDL] Anyone have thermal data for the Sky Energy 100ah
	 cells, charge and discharge temp rise?
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <200911092243.nA9Mh9w1016458@...>

I considering what to do about power dissapation in the battery box.  I've got
96 of the SE 100ah cells in a closed box, an old US Electricar S10.  I've also
got an Elithion BMS.  I haven't been able to find any power dissapation
information for either the cells or the BMS.  Has anyone observed the
temperature rise on charge and discharge with one of these setups?  I'm
contemplating adding 2 4" fans to each side of the battery box, but I don't want
to cut the holes if I don't need to.  I figure since the BMS is measuring
temperature and has fan control outputs, there must be a reason to supply a
little air motion over the cells.

Paul Wallace



------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 17:19:07 -0600
From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] HV fuse placement in Sky/TS traction pack
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4AF8A36B.7090102@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Rob Trahms wrote:
>
> Thanks Lee, that is great info - I kinda figured they were too big!
> Live and learn (and spend as I go!)...
>
> The fuse block and the mounting ideas are good - I can do that.
> Suggestions on fuse sizes?  My pack will have 53 SE100AHAs in series, and
> worst
> case is 3C-4C draw from the pack.

The usual idea is to size the fuse so it blows *before* some other more
expensive thing is destroyed.

So, start by looking for the "weakest link" in the rest of your system.
Try to find out how much current they can stand and for how long.

I don't' recall what controller you are using, and I don't trust the
manufacturer's data on your lithium cells. So, this will have to be a
judgement call.

But for the sake of illustration, let's say you were using a Curtis
1221B-74xx controller and 6v golf cart batteries (because I happen to
have the specs handy). :-)

The batteries are approximately good for (based on voltage drop):
1000 amps peak for 1 second
500 amps for 1 minute
150 amps for 30 minutes
75 amps for 2 hours

The 1221B is rated:
400 amps for 2 minutes
250 amps for 5 minutes
150 amps for 1 hour

Now, look at the performance curves for the intended fuse. For example,
see http://us.ferrazshawmut.com/oem/media/pdf/A30QS.pdf for specs on
Ferraz Shawmut A30QS series semiconductor fuses.

rated   current to blow at various times
amps 1 sec 1 min 15 min
---- ----- ----- ------
300a 800a 525a 410a
200a 625a 425a 350a
100a 325a 220a 175a

Notice that the fuse can carry significantly more than its rated current
for a surprisingly length of time. A 300a fuse will blow if there is a
direct short, but it won't blow for a sustained overcurrent situation.
At the other end, a 100a fuse blows before both battery and controller
limits for all the times listed. It would safely protect them, but might
also "nuisance blow" just from climbing a hill (controller at 250 amps
for 5 minutes).

So, the 200a fuse looks like the best bet in this situation. If the
controller fails to keep the battery current under its current limit,
the fuse will blow before the controller dies.

--
Lee A. Hart  | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N  | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen



------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 15:32:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Stephen Chapman <enganear@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Precharging necessary?
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <1257809559047-585180.post@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


Hi Lee,
I know there have been MANY discussions regarding different components for
limiting the current into the controller during precharge, is there anything
wrong with using a small DC motor?  I like the idea of a stone simple
audible indication and small motors are really cheap....

Stephen Chapman


Lee Hart wrote:
>
> Stephen Chapman wrote:
>> Application: 36V lawn tractor conversion with Curtis 1206 controller and
>> 6.7"
>> series wound GE motor.
>> http://www.evalbum.com/2502
>>
>> I'm wiring this up now, is a precharge resistor necessary for this low
>> voltage app?
>
> I would use one. It's job is to extend the life of the main contactor
> and the controller's capacitors, which applies for any pack voltage.
>
> --
> Lee A. Hart  | Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave N  | Forget the perfect offering
> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
>

--
View this message in context:
http://n4.nabble.com/Precharging-necessary-tp585108p585180.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.



------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 18:32:19 -0600
From: Morgan LaMoore <morganl@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Pre-charge Addition
To: wjdennis@..., Electric Vehicle Discussion List
	 <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <4230c7190911091632p2154a3aav72f03fb1a2097498@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

However, note how the circuit will work then:

When the precharge relay is off, the auxiliary relay/opto is off. When
the precharge relay is turned on, full voltage is applied to the
circuit, turning on the auxiliary relay. When the pack is about done
precharging, the auxiliary relay coil current is too low and it turns
off.

So if you want to turn on a circuit when the precharge is done, you
would have to use a normally closed relay and include another relay to
keep your circuit from operating when the main and precharge relays
are turned off.

If you just power your switch through the key switch then through your
auxiliary "precharge detect" relay, you'll probably get a brief pulse
after you turn on the key but before the precharge starts. Depending
on the circuit you're powering, this may or may not be a problem.

-Morgan

On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 12:33 PM, wjdennis@... <wjdennis@...> wrote:
> Thanks, Lee. ?I just want to power a circuit that draws about 25mA max.
> The optos I was looking at had a 50mA constant current rating on both input
> and output.
>
> Bill



------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 16:59:08 -0800 (PST)
From: Rob Trahms <rtrahms@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] HV fuse placement in Sky/TS traction pack
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <1257814748843-585197.post@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii



Hi Lee -

I have a Z1K-HV.

Rob


Lee Hart wrote:
>
> Rob Trahms wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Lee, that is great info - I kinda figured they were too big!
>> Live and learn (and spend as I go!)...
>>
>> The fuse block and the mounting ideas are good - I can do that.
>> Suggestions on fuse sizes?  My pack will have 53 SE100AHAs in series, and
>> worst
>> case is 3C-4C draw from the pack.
>
> The usual idea is to size the fuse so it blows *before* some other more
> expensive thing is destroyed.
>
> So, start by looking for the "weakest link" in the rest of your system.
> Try to find out how much current they can stand and for how long.
>
> I don't' recall what controller you are using, and I don't trust the
> manufacturer's data on your lithium cells. So, this will have to be a
> judgement call.
>
> But for the sake of illustration, let's say you were using a Curtis
> 1221B-74xx controller and 6v golf cart batteries (because I happen to
> have the specs handy). :-)
>
> The batteries are approximately good for (based on voltage drop):
> 1000 amps peak for 1 second
> 500 amps for 1 minute
> 150 amps for 30 minutes
> 75 amps for 2 hours
>
> The 1221B is rated:
> 400 amps for 2 minutes
> 250 amps for 5 minutes
> 150 amps for 1 hour
>
> Now, look at the performance curves for the intended fuse. For example,
> see http://us.ferrazshawmut.com/oem/media/pdf/A30QS.pdf for specs on
> Ferraz Shawmut A30QS series semiconductor fuses.
>
> rated   current to blow at various times
> amps 1 sec 1 min 15 min
> ---- ----- ----- ------
> 300a 800a 525a 410a
> 200a 625a 425a 350a
> 100a 325a 220a 175a
>
> Notice that the fuse can carry significantly more than its rated current
> for a surprisingly length of time. A 300a fuse will blow if there is a
> direct short, but it won't blow for a sustained overcurrent situation.
> At the other end, a 100a fuse blows before both battery and controller
> limits for all the times listed. It would safely protect them, but might
> also "nuisance blow" just from climbing a hill (controller at 250 amps
> for 5 minutes).
>
> So, the 200a fuse looks like the best bet in this situation. If the
> controller fails to keep the battery current under its current limit,
> the fuse will blow before the controller dies.
>
> --
> Lee A. Hart  | Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave N  | Forget the perfect offering
> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
>

--
View this message in context:
http://n4.nabble.com/HV-fuse-placement-in-Sky-TS-traction-pack-tp584961p585197.h\
tml
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.



------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 17:37:04 -0800 (PST)
From: Rob Trahms <rtrahms@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] HV fuse placement in Sky/TS traction pack
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <1257817024208-585207.post@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii



I am thinking this is the right type of fuse for the new 170V SE100AHA pack:
http://www.evparts.com/prod-FU9530.htm

Thoughts?
Rob


Rob Trahms wrote:
>
>
> Hi Lee -
>
> I have a Z1K-HV.
>
> Rob
>
>
> Lee Hart wrote:
>>
>> Rob Trahms wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks Lee, that is great info - I kinda figured they were too big!
>>> Live and learn (and spend as I go!)...
>>>
>>> The fuse block and the mounting ideas are good - I can do that.
>>> Suggestions on fuse sizes?  My pack will have 53 SE100AHAs in series,
>>> and
>>> worst
>>> case is 3C-4C draw from the pack.
>>
>> The usual idea is to size the fuse so it blows *before* some other more
>> expensive thing is destroyed.
>>
>> So, start by looking for the "weakest link" in the rest of your system.
>> Try to find out how much current they can stand and for how long.
>>
>> I don't' recall what controller you are using, and I don't trust the
>> manufacturer's data on your lithium cells. So, this will have to be a
>> judgement call.
>>
>> But for the sake of illustration, let's say you were using a Curtis
>> 1221B-74xx controller and 6v golf cart batteries (because I happen to
>> have the specs handy). :-)
>>
>> The batteries are approximately good for (based on voltage drop):
>> 1000 amps peak for 1 second
>> 500 amps for 1 minute
>> 150 amps for 30 minutes
>> 75 amps for 2 hours
>>
>> The 1221B is rated:
>> 400 amps for 2 minutes
>> 250 amps for 5 minutes
>> 150 amps for 1 hour
>>
>> Now, look at the performance curves for the intended fuse. For example,
>> see http://us.ferrazshawmut.com/oem/media/pdf/A30QS.pdf for specs on
>> Ferraz Shawmut A30QS series semiconductor fuses.
>>
>> rated   current to blow at various times
>> amps 1 sec 1 min 15 min
>> ---- ----- ----- ------
>> 300a 800a 525a 410a
>> 200a 625a 425a 350a
>> 100a 325a 220a 175a
>>
>> Notice that the fuse can carry significantly more than its rated current
>> for a surprisingly length of time. A 300a fuse will blow if there is a
>> direct short, but it won't blow for a sustained overcurrent situation.
>> At the other end, a 100a fuse blows before both battery and controller
>> limits for all the times listed. It would safely protect them, but might
>> also "nuisance blow" just from climbing a hill (controller at 250 amps
>> for 5 minutes).
>>
>> So, the 200a fuse looks like the best bet in this situation. If the
>> controller fails to keep the battery current under its current limit,
>> the fuse will blow before the controller dies.
>>
>> --
>> Lee A. Hart  | Ring the bells that still can ring
>> 814 8th Ave N  | Forget the perfect offering
>> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
>> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>>
>
>

--
View this message in context:
http://n4.nabble.com/HV-fuse-placement-in-Sky-TS-traction-pack-tp584961p585207.h\
tml
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.



------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 21:32:52 -0600
From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Pre-charge Addition
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4AF8DEE4.9000505@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Morgan LaMoore wrote:
> However, note how the circuit will work then:
>
> When the precharge relay is off, the auxiliary relay/opto is off. When
> the precharge relay is turned on, full voltage is applied to the
> circuit, turning on the auxiliary relay. When the pack is about done
> precharging, the auxiliary relay coil current is too low and it turns
> off.
>
> So if you want to turn on a circuit when the precharge is done, you
> would have to use a normally closed relay and include another relay to
> keep your circuit from operating when the main and precharge relays
> are turned off.
>
> If you just power your switch through the key switch then through your
> auxiliary "precharge detect" relay, you'll probably get a brief pulse
> after you turn on the key but before the precharge starts. Depending
> on the circuit you're powering, this may or may not be a problem.

That's another reason why I was wondering what the output will be used for.

--
Lee A. Hart  | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N  | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen



------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 18:43:58 -0900
From: m gol <gol.m86@...>
Subject: [EVDL] not enough cash
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <1f1ce8720911091943s51e95172u5a033da0b1ce7241@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Hello,

Looks like I'll have the funding to get the $5K battery welder.

But not sure I'll have enough money to make a 100ah 144v A123 pack.

If I do a 72volt 100ah pack made up of A123 cells and connect it to a 72volt
pack made up of TS100's...

does anyone see any issues? Would I be better off make a 144volt 60ah (a123)
+ 144volt TS60's

Thanks,

Mike Golub
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------------------------------

Message: 16
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 22:10:39 -0600
From: Robert Johnston <anaerin@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] HV fuse placement in Sky/TS traction pack
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <b75f78d70911092010n63a9f026g873bc9fdbbe09983@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 19:37, Rob Trahms <rtrahms@...> wrote:
>
>
> I am thinking this is the right type of fuse for the new 170V SE100AHA pack:
> http://www.evparts.com/prod-FU9530.htm
>
> Thoughts?
> Rob
>
>
> Rob Trahms wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi Lee -
>>
>> I have a Z1K-HV.
>>
>> Rob
>>
>>
>> Lee Hart wrote:
>>>
>>> Rob Trahms wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Thanks Lee, that is great info - I kinda figured they were too big!
>>>> Live and learn (and spend as I go!)...
>>>>
>>>> The fuse block and the mounting ideas are good - I can do that.
>>>> Suggestions on fuse sizes? ?My pack will have 53 SE100AHAs in series,
>>>> and
>>>> worst
>>>> case is 3C-4C draw from the pack.
>>>
>>> The usual idea is to size the fuse so it blows *before* some other more
>>> expensive thing is destroyed.
>>>
>>> So, start by looking for the "weakest link" in the rest of your system.
>>> Try to find out how much current they can stand and for how long.
>>>
>>> I don't' recall what controller you are using, and I don't trust the
>>> manufacturer's data on your lithium cells. So, this will have to be a
>>> judgement call.
>>>
>>> But for the sake of illustration, let's say you were using a Curtis
>>> 1221B-74xx controller and 6v golf cart batteries (because I happen to
>>> have the specs handy). :-)
>>>
>>> The batteries are approximately good for (based on voltage drop):
>>> 1000 amps peak for 1 second
>>> 500 amps for 1 minute
>>> 150 amps for 30 minutes
>>> 75 amps for 2 hours
>>>
>>> The 1221B is rated:
>>> 400 amps for 2 minutes
>>> 250 amps for 5 minutes
>>> 150 amps for 1 hour
>>>
>>> Now, look at the performance curves for the intended fuse. For example,
>>> see http://us.ferrazshawmut.com/oem/media/pdf/A30QS.pdf for specs on
>>> Ferraz Shawmut A30QS series semiconductor fuses.
>>>
>>> rated ? current to blow at various times
>>> amps 1 sec ? 1 min ? 15 min
>>> ---- ----- ? ----- ? ------
>>> 300a 800a ? ?525a ? ?410a
>>> 200a 625a ? ?425a ? ?350a
>>> 100a 325a ? ?220a ? ?175a
>>>
>>> Notice that the fuse can carry significantly more than its rated current
>>> for a surprisingly length of time. A 300a fuse will blow if there is a
>>> direct short, but it won't blow for a sustained overcurrent situation.
>>> At the other end, a 100a fuse blows before both battery and controller
>>> limits for all the times listed. It would safely protect them, but might
>>> also "nuisance blow" just from climbing a hill (controller at 250 amps
>>> for 5 minutes).
>>>
>>> So, the 200a fuse looks like the best bet in this situation. If the
>>> controller fails to keep the battery current under its current limit,
>>> the fuse will blow before the controller dies.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Lee A. Hart ? ? ? ? ?| Ring the bells that still can ring
>>> 814 8th Ave N ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?| Forget the perfect offering
>>> Sartell MN 56377 ? ? | There is a crack in everything
>>> leeahart earthlink.net ? ? ? | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
>>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>>> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
>>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
http://n4.nabble.com/HV-fuse-placement-in-Sky-TS-traction-pack-tp584961p585207.h\
tml
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>



--
Robert "Anaerin" Johnston
Sent from Regina, SK, Canada



------------------------------

Message: 17
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 21:13:11 -0700
From: "Mike Nickerson" <mike@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ZillaConfig
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <030501ca61bc$1f6fd890$5e4f89b0$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Excel 2007 has much larger limits.  It is limited to 1 million rows and 16K
columns.  I know that I've had over 130K rows in a Excel 2007 spreadsheet at
work.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
Of Eric Poulsen
Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 10:41 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ZillaConfig

Remember, though that Excel is limited to about 65000 rows per worksheet.

John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> For those few of you who have played with ZillaConfig, I just added Yet
> Another Feature.
> Now, when in DAQ mode, it can output a CSV file with all the Zilla DAQ
> values converted to their normalized forms.  i.e. Volts, Amps, RPM, etc..
> This lets you look at and analyze the zilla data with anything that can
> read a .CSV file.
> http://casadelgato.com/ZillaConfig.html  (now up to version 1.1.3)
>
>

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



------------------------------

Message: 18
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 21:08:58 -0700
From: "Mike Nickerson" <mike@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] not enough cash
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <030401ca61bb$88866c50$999344f0$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

How are you planning on connecting the bank of A123 cells with the bank of
TS cells (72v of each)?

Are you thinking about connecting them serially to have a 144v string?  This
seems like it would be a problem because of the large differences in device
characteristics between the two types of cells.  The A123 cells can provide
way more current than the TS cells.  If they were connected in series, I
think you would severely stress the TS cells.

I'm assuming that the 144 volt strings of 60 ah batteries would be hooked in
parallel.  This seems like it might work better, but I still wonder if it
would have problems.  The string of batteries with the lowest internal
resistance (the A123s I think) would take the bulk of the load.  I don't
know how well the TS cells would provide backup to them.  I think this might
stress the A123 cells.

Please keep in mind that I have some basic electronics theory, but no
practical experience with any of these systems, yet.  However, all my
training says that life is MUCH easier when all the batteries are as close
to the same type / specs as possible.  It might be possible to get fancy,
but it's also possible for more stuff to go wrong when you do.

Mike


-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
Of m gol
Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 8:44 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] not enough cash

Hello,

Looks like I'll have the funding to get the $5K battery welder.

But not sure I'll have enough money to make a 100ah 144v A123 pack.

If I do a 72volt 100ah pack made up of A123 cells and connect it to a 72volt
pack made up of TS100's...

does anyone see any issues? Would I be better off make a 144volt 60ah (a123)
+ 144volt TS60's

Thanks,

Mike Golub
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_______________________________________________
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Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



------------------------------

Message: 19
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 23:59:14 -0600
From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] HV fuse placement in Sky/TS traction pack
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4AF90132.1010006@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Rob Trahms wrote:
> I am thinking this is the right type of fuse for the new 170V SE100AHA pack:
> http://www.evparts.com/prod-FU9530.htm

That fuse is rated 130vdc (or maybe 100vdc; the product description has
both). You want a fuse voltage rating *higher* than your pack voltage,
to be sure it can safely open in the event of a fault.

The 200 amps might be OK, but I really don't know the capabilities of
your batteries.

The Zilla controller can be programmed for any desired battery current
limit. Obviously, you'd set it for something under the fuse's rating for
whatever time you want to draw that current.

--
Lee A. Hart  | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N  | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen



------------------------------

Message: 20
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 00:03:54 -0600
From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Precharging necessary?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4AF9024A.4040800@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Stephen Chapman wrote:
> Hi Lee,
> I know there have been MANY discussions regarding different components for
> limiting the current into the controller during precharge, is there anything
> wrong with using a small DC motor?  I like the idea of a stone simple
> audible indication and small motors are really cheap....

Now *that's* an interesting idea! :-) It's not hard to find high voltage
DC motors (like an electric drill or vacuum cleaner with a "universal"
motor in it). They would run fine on DC. When you first switched it
across the contactor, the motor will quickly spin up to full speed, then
slow down as the controller precharges. When the motor stops, you're
precharged.

--
Lee A. Hart  | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N  | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen



------------------------------

Message: 21
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 00:06:14 -0600
From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Anyone have thermal data for the Sky Energy 100ah
	 cells, charge and discharge temp rise?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4AF902D6.3070805@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

ianaudio@... wrote:
> I considering what to do about power dissapation in the battery box.  I've got
96 of the SE 100ah cells in a closed box, an old US Electricar S10.  I've also
got an Elithion BMS.  I haven't been able to find any power dissapation
information for either the cells or the BMS.  Has anyone observed the
temperature rise on charge and discharge with one of these setups?  I'm
contemplating adding 2 4" fans to each side of the battery box, but I don't want
to cut the holes if I don't need to.  I figure since the BMS is measuring
temperature and has fan control outputs, there must be a reason to supply a
little air motion over the cells.

I'd say you had better cut the holes and provide the ventilation. From
what I've read, this is a dissipative battery balancing system. It will
need to burn up the charging current times the pack voltage as heat near
the end of a charge cycle when most of the cell regulators are bypassing
current.

--
Lee A. Hart  | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N  | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen



------------------------------

Message: 22
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 00:12:03 -0600
From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Warm air defrost for a Gizmo
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4AF90433.6070208@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

The Gizmo has a lot of "flow through" ventilation. It's going to take
many watts of heat to warm up that windshield, since almost all the heat
will be lost to the rapidly circulating surrounding air.

What about adding a second thin plastic inner windshield? Space it an
inch or so away from the existing one. Use something like a hair dryer
to produce hot air to blow into the space between the inner and outer
windshields. This will confine the heat to exactly where you need it.
Rewire the nichrome element in the hair dryer to suit your pack voltage.

--
Lee A. Hart  | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N  | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen



------------------------------

Message: 23
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 22:42:43 -0800
From: David Nelson <gizmoev@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Warm air defrost for a Gizmo
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <c5b2f1dc0911092242y2f6832cap28c2ad509adda8bd@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I thought I'd wire the heating element separately from the fan. I need
the heat when the Gizmo has been parked outside for a while and
condensation has built up. Right now I turn on the fan as soon as I
get in and let it run a while. Sometimes it takes a long while. I'd
like to use warmer air than ambient while I'm stopped. Once I start
moving I rarely use the fan because of all the "flow through"
ventilation.

As for rewiring a hair dryer nichrome element for pack voltage do I
just measure along the wire until I reach the resistance I want for
the voltage I have? If I wire it for 65V I should be ok with just
about any voltage I may have in my pack. A lower voltage means less
heat. Is it W=i^2R? I should just look it up.

On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 10:12 PM, Lee Hart <leeahart@...> wrote:
> The Gizmo has a lot of "flow through" ventilation. It's going to take
> many watts of heat to warm up that windshield, since almost all the heat
> will be lost to the rapidly circulating surrounding air.
>
> What about adding a second thin plastic inner windshield? Space it an
> inch or so away from the existing one. Use something like a hair dryer
> to produce hot air to blow into the space between the inner and outer
> windshields. This will confine the heat to exactly where you need it.
> Rewire the nichrome element in the hair dryer to suit your pack voltage.
>
> --
> Lee A. Hart ? ? ? ? ? ? | Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave N ? ? ? ? ? | Forget the perfect offering
> Sartell MN 56377 ? ? ? ?| There is a crack in everything
> leeahart earthlink.net ?| That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>



--
David D. Nelson
http://evalbum.com/1328



------------------------------

Message: 24
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 22:50:41 -0800
From: David Nelson <gizmoev@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Performance vs temperature..........it SUCKS!
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <c5b2f1dc0911092250v2bd32f67g52cc06c63d42cd4e@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

> few hundred REAL English MILES, not wimpy K's!?

I thought MILES were for those wimps who didn't like to count as high ;)

--
David D. Nelson
http://evalbum.com/1328



------------------------------

Message: 25
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 00:54:07 -0600
From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Distance per single charge records
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4AF90E0F.1020406@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Willie McKemie wrote:
> My Zivan charges about 8 miles worth per hour.  That's about 9 amps @
> 220v AC.  I need to charge about 6-7 hours for each hour on the road.
> If I had a suitable 110v opportunity charger, it would likely charge
> at the rate of about 4-5 miles per hour.  Bottom line: from my
> perspective, opportunity charging for only an hour or so is almost
> without value.

It depends on the situation. Typically, I don't drive somewhere unless
I'm confident that I have enough charge for the round trip. But
sometimes things change. I might have to go farther than I thought, or
the pack is colder than usual, etc. In such cases, I'll get within a few
miles of home before needing that opportunity charge. An hour or less at
120vac is all I need to get home.

In other cases, I know I'll be parked a long time. I'd routinely drive
to work, and plug in so the car is sitting on charge for 8+ hours before
I need to drive home. Once, I drove to a car rental place, who let me
plug in, and I rented a car to drive a long distance (from Seattle WA to
Portland OR for a visit to John Wayland). The EV had more than enough
time to fully recharge by the time I got back.

Fast, high-power opportunity charging sounds like a great idea. However,
the equipment needed to do it is very expensive. Who is going to pay for
it, especially since it is unlikely to be used very often?

--
Lee A. Hart  | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N  | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen



------------------------------

Message: 26
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 00:56:21 -0600
From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC-DC
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4AF90E95.6050701@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> Have you measured the idle current on the IOTA?  I think it's pretty
> high so that you really do want to disconnect it when the vehicle is
> off.

Yes, the ones I've measured are well over 20ma with zero load on the
output. If you connect a battery, this current goes up substantially
even if the battery is in float and charging at a trivial current.

--
Lee A. Hart  | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N  | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen



------------------------------

Message: 27
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 09:33:05 +0000
From: Evan Tuer <evan.tuer@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Precharging necessary?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <cc7432af0911100133s1a37edeejd6ec94aef131c28@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 6:03 AM, Lee Hart <leeahart@...> wrote:
> Stephen Chapman wrote:
>> Hi Lee,
>> I know there have been MANY discussions regarding different components for
>> limiting the current into the controller during precharge, is there anything
>> wrong with using a small DC motor? ?I like the idea of a stone simple
>> audible indication and small motors are really cheap....
>
> Now *that's* an interesting idea! :-) It's not hard to find high voltage
> DC motors (like an electric drill or vacuum cleaner with a "universal"
> motor in it). They would run fine on DC. When you first switched it
> across the contactor, the motor will quickly spin up to full speed, then
> slow down as the controller precharges. When the motor stops, you're
> precharged.

You could leave the fan attached to provide a bit of load.

But there's not an awful lot wrong with just using a power resistor
and suitable transistor or relay to switch it...



------------------------------

Message: 28
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 21:44:22 -0600 (CST)
From: web@...
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Anyone have thermal data for the Sky Energy 100ah
	 cells, charge and discharge temp rise?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4693.209.169.25.29.1257824662.squirrel@...>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1

> I haven't been able to find any power [dissipation] information for
either the cells...

That's because it is a function of internal resistance of the cell, and
cell manufacturers either don't know how to measure it, or would rather
not talk about it. My very rough estimate is that you'll see something on
the order of 500 W dissipation while driving, 10 W while charging.

>.. or the BMS.

Please see:
http://liionbms.com/php/cell_boards.php#Specifications
"Cell load current ... Balancing, at 3.6 V (LiFePO4) ... 200 mA"

Max power: P = 3.6 V x 0.2 A x 96 cells = 69 W

But that's a max, and only at the end of charging. Averaged over the
typical charge cycle, that's more like 5 W.

So, the dissipation from the cells while driving will be the predominant
source of heat.

D'de
Davide Andrea





------------------------------

Message: 29
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 06:03:55 -0600
From: Morgan LaMoore <morganl@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] not enough cash
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <4230c7190911100403t6da15da7xb12b4c6d1cd77760@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 9:43 PM, m gol <gol.m86@...> wrote:
> ...
> If I do a 72volt 100ah pack made up of A123 cells and connect it to a 72volt
> pack made up of TS100's...
>
> does anyone see any issues? Would I be better off make a 144volt 60ah (a123)
> + 144volt TS60's

Hi,

72V TS in series with 72V A123 will only have the performance of
Thunder Sky (although slightly better voltage sag), and you'd need a
very good BMS to handle it.

You will be much better off with 144V A123 60Ah in parallel with 144V TS60.

Actually, I suggest Sky Energy over ThunderSky because Sky Energy has
the same charge/discharge voltages as A123, while TS is higher
voltage.

However, you will need a separate BMS for each battery pack. Also,
because A123 is more powerful, it will tend to provide more power at
first, so it will empty before the TS has a chance to be used much.
That means your car will be very powerful at first but will lose lots
of power part-way through the charge.

I've been thinking about such a pack, and I think it would work best
with separate contactors and amp-hour contactors for each pack. You
could use just ThunderSky for most of your driving and turn on the
A123 booster when necessary. I would probably write software to
automatically do this, but you could have a manually controlled
switch.

Where do you plan on getting the A123, just from the e-bay sellers?

-Morgan



------------------------------

Message: 30
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 21:20:01 -0600 (CST)
From: web@...
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Precharging necessary?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4649.209.169.25.29.1257823201.squirrel@...>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1

> is a precharge resistor necessary for this low voltage app?

I can't see why not.
Here is some info on selecting a precharge resistor for EVs.
http://liionbms.com/php/precharge.php#Resistor
D'de



------------------------------

Message: 31
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 05:39:00 -0800 (PST)
From: Stephen Chapman <enganear@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Precharging necessary?
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <1257860340161-585374.post@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


Exactly!   Since I am only using 36V, I was thinking of using a small PM
motor, maybe with a resistor in series depending on the rated voltage of the
motor.  I have some speed 700 motors laying around rated at 18V or speed 400
motors rated at 12V.  I could use a resistor or maybe even multiple motors
in series...

This solution provides audible feedback and is free for me.  For higher
voltages, a small motor could be used in a parallel/series solution with a
power resistor to accomplish the same result.
Stephen Chapman


Lee Hart wrote:
>
> Stephen Chapman wrote:
>> Hi Lee,
>> I know there have been MANY discussions regarding different components
>> for
>> limiting the current into the controller during precharge, is there
>> anything
>> wrong with using a small DC motor?  I like the idea of a stone simple
>> audible indication and small motors are really cheap....
>
> Now *that's* an interesting idea! :-) It's not hard to find high voltage
> DC motors (like an electric drill or vacuum cleaner with a "universal"
> motor in it). They would run fine on DC. When you first switched it
> across the contactor, the motor will quickly spin up to full speed, then
> slow down as the controller precharges. When the motor stops, you're
> precharged.
>
> --
> Lee A. Hart  | Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave N  | Forget the perfect offering
> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
>

--
View this message in context:
http://n4.nabble.com/Precharging-necessary-tp585108p585374.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.



------------------------------

Message: 32
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 08:31:53 -0600
From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Warm air defrost for a Gizmo
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4AF97959.4090509@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

David Nelson wrote:
> I thought I'd wire the heating element separately from the fan. I need
> the heat when the Gizmo has been parked outside for a while and
> condensation has built up.

One possibility is a thermostat that turns the heating element on when
the temperature is below some temperature. Digikey has #317-1076-ND that
switch on below 60 deg.F that are DC rated to 60v at 6 amps.

Or, a couple closely spaced wires on the windshield to form a moisture
detector. When there is water on the windshield, it produces an X
meghohm resistor between the two points, which is enough to turn on the
gate of a MOSFET to power the heating element. When the window dries,
the resistance becomes infinite, and a XX megohm resistor pulls the
MOSFET gate low.

> As for rewiring a hair dryer nichrome element for pack voltage do I
> just measure along the wire until I reach the resistance I want for
> the voltage I have?

Yes, that will work. But I'd be more inclined to pick the tap according
to how much heat I felt I needed. 48v worth of a 120v element is 40% of
its length. But you can raise or lower this to get a little more heat
(and higher current) or a little less.

Or, you can tap the element in the middle, and wire the two halves in
parallel. This cuts the voltage in half, but doubles the current, to
raise the wattage back toward its full 120v value.

> A lower voltage means less heat. Is it W=i^2R?

Correct!

--
Lee A. Hart  | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N  | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen



------------------------------

Message: 33
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 09:35:20 -0500
From: "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVs hit the soaps
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4AFE3E454BB74C2D9F321FA8F3ACF291@adminwlzisp2uc>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original

   Ya HEARD a controller Whine?? I didn't think Tesli HAD that? just a bit of
tire noise as in any OTHER gas rig? As Tesli begin to show up, sheeple are
GETTING aware of them!? You can name drop EVen in Corrupticut and they have
heard of them! Hope they open a dealer in the Gold Coast of CT; Westport,
Alota celebs there, Southport, etc Fairfield, alota Sheeple with TOO much
money! They can BUY the beaches and post "No Trespassing" signs for us
commoners!We have a dealer in NYC, where you can't PARK anywhere without
spending what it costs to rent a house anywhere else?But THIS isn't an issue
to moneyed people there? They DIDN'T SHOW the car, pricy product placment,
but NEEDED Something to indicate the Tesla drove up, I guess?

     Seeya

     Bob, in as quiet Jetta<g>?! But LOOKS like any OTHER Jetta!
----- Original Message -----
From: "K O" <visualeyes108@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 4:41 PM
Subject: [EVDL] EVs hit the soaps



There is a TV soap Opera after the noon news called "B&B"???
Today I walked into the room just as a feamle star was saying to a male
star. "Oh! I didn't hear you pull up in that quiet ELECTRIC sports car!" I
hear a controller whine but looked over too late to see if they even SHOWED
a car. What a great, free product placement for an ELECTRIC sportscar
company... I wonder which company that could be???? hahaha

I don't shop where I can't charge.






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Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
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------------------------------

Message: 34
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 08:43:50 -0800 (PST)
From: David Dymaxion <david_dymaxion@...>
Subject: [EVDL] Chrysler No EVs
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <9849.41372.qm@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

http://www.sustainablebusiness.com/index.cfm/go/news.display/id/19208



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Message: 35
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 08:56:41 -0800
From: Mike Brown <mike@...>
Subject: [EVDL] EV Conversion Battery Tech Seminar
To: EV Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <200911101709.nAAH9bm4016657@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

Date: Jan. 30, 2010
Electric Vehicle Conversion Battery Tech Seminar
Hosted by Electro Automotive
Location: University Inn & Conference Center, 611 Ocean St., Santa Cruz, CA

A one-day seminar featuring three expert presenters on the topics of
lead acid and lithium batteries for use in home electric vehicle
conversions, as well as battery containment in the
vehicle.  Presenters include Jim Ramos of American Battery Company,
with 36 years of experience in manufacturing and sales of lead acid
batteries for converted electric vehicles; Dr. Andrew Burke of the
Institute of Transportation Studies at UC Davis, with 35 years of
experience in testing and research in vehicle traction batteries,
especially lithium; and Michael Brown, author of Convert It, with 30
years of experience in design and installation of electric car conversions.

Space is limited.  Pre-paid registration of $100 is required.

Contact:  shari@...,
http://www.electroauto.com/batteryseminar.shtml , 831-429-1989


Mike Brown
Electro Automotive, POB 1113, Felton, CA  95018-1113 Phone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com  email mike@...
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979




------------------------------

Message: 36
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 12:02:51 -0500
From: Roger Heuckeroth <rheuckeroth@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Chrysler No EVs
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <F65A2FDE-F27D-40A4-991E-E73A0D888E77@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed

That sucks!

On Nov 10, 2009, at 11:43 AM, David Dymaxion wrote:

> http://www.sustainablebusiness.com/index.cfm/go/news.display/id/19208
>
>
>
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> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



------------------------------

_______________________________________________
EV@...
For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



End of EV Digest, Vol 28, Issue 13
**********************************

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Date: Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:00 pm
Subject: EV Digest, Vol 28, Issue 14 		ev-request@...
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Today's Topics:

    1. Re: Chrysler No EVs (Zeke Yewdall)
    2. Re: Chrysler No EVs (Douglas A. Stansfield)
    3. Great little VIDEO of the Fiat e500 EV ... AT SPEED at MONZA
       (Steven Lough)
    4. Re: Chrysler No EVs (SLPinfo.org)
    5. Re: Chrysler No EVs (Roger Heuckeroth)
    6. Re: Great little VIDEO of the Fiat e500 EV ... AT SPEED at
       MONZA (Dave Hymers)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 11:20:20 -0700
From: Zeke Yewdall <zyewdall@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Chrysler No EVs
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <f446b2df0911101020x54bfda56l56c0ad9dbfd4924@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

There goes the one thing that could have possibly convinced me to buy a
chrysler ever......

On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 10:02 AM, Roger Heuckeroth
<rheuckeroth@...>wrote:

> That sucks!
>
> On Nov 10, 2009, at 11:43 AM, David Dymaxion wrote:
>
> > http://www.sustainablebusiness.com/index.cfm/go/news.display/id/19208
> >
> >
> >
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL:
>
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> > _______________________________________________
> > General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> > Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> > Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> > Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
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>
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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 13:30:25 -0500
From: "Douglas A. Stansfield" <Doug@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Chrysler No EVs
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>,
	 <ev-bounces@...>
Message-ID: <019301ca6233$df218310$9d648930$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I have contacted my congressman and my senators regarding the $70 Million
Grant they received and asked them to take it back and give the money to
another EV manufacturer.  All of us could make 1000s of EVs for that
cost!!!!

Sincerely;

Douglas A. Stansfield
President
www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
Doug@...
973-875-6276 (office)
973-670-9208 (cell)
973-440-1619 (fax)

WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS




-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
Of Zeke Yewdall
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 1:20 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Chrysler No EVs

There goes the one thing that could have possibly convinced me to buy a
chrysler ever......

On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 10:02 AM, Roger Heuckeroth
<rheuckeroth@...>wrote:

> That sucks!
>
> On Nov 10, 2009, at 11:43 AM, David Dymaxion wrote:
>
> > http://www.sustainablebusiness.com/index.cfm/go/news.display/id/19208
> >
> >
> >
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL:
>
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hment.html
> > _______________________________________________
> > General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> > Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> > Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> > Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
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>
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------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 11:10:24 -0800
From: Steven Lough <stevenslough@...>
Subject: [EVDL] Great little VIDEO of the Fiat e500 EV ... AT SPEED at
	 MONZA
To: seva@..., Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR
	 <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4AF9BAA0.1090804@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed

And I have translated the TEXT on the YouTube sight
from Italian to English...

At about 2/3rds through the circuit, I think a black
AC Propulsion eBOX  passes the Fiat on the right.....

the YouTube sight: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NE763K1gDdw

The TEXT:

The 500 Electrical worker, realized from the Micro-Vett di Imola in
track to the National Automobile race track of Monza during the event
New Air 2009 from the 11-14 june
   a test drive before conquering the First Absolute Place in Category
IIIA Vehicles Electrical workers to 2o the Trophy New Air
   Pilot: Andrea Marconcini
   Room: Paul Forchielli
   Car Room: Micro-Vett Fiat Fiorino Electric

--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle,  WA  98115-7230
Day:  206 524 1351
Cell:   206 850 8535
e-mail: stevenslough@...
web:     http://www.seattleeva.org



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 12:25:43 -0700
From: "SLPinfo.org" <slpinfoprof@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Chrysler No EVs
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <e459cfaf0911101125k2c9f0d3k907123ebd2b4335b@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Of course if they are owned by Fiat who are themselves producing at least
one EV:
:
http://www.greencar.com/articles/fiat-brazil-produce-electric-car.php

I can see why Fiat would say no to Chrysler doing so.  That said, I agree
that Chrysler should then return the money.


- Peter Flipsen Jr
http://www.evalbum.com/1974



On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 11:30 AM, Douglas A. Stansfield <
Doug@...> wrote:

> I have contacted my congressman and my senators regarding the $70 Million
> Grant they received and asked them to take it back and give the money to
> another EV manufacturer.  All of us could make 1000s of EVs for that
> cost!!!!
>
> Sincerely;
>
> Douglas A. Stansfield
> President
>
www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com<http://www.transatlanticelectricconvers\
ions.com/>
> Doug@...
> 973-875-6276 (office)
> 973-670-9208 (cell)
> 973-440-1619 (fax)
>
> WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
> And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS
>
>
>
>
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Message: 5
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 14:26:48 -0500
From: Roger Heuckeroth <rheuckeroth@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Chrysler No EVs
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <D6FC645F-39B6-4DC0-B602-B3DDCD9322D1@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes


On Nov 10, 2009, at 1:30 PM, Douglas A. Stansfield wrote:

> Grant they received and asked them to take it back and give the
> money to
> another EV manufacturer.  All of us could make 1000s of EVs for that
> cost!!!!

Sure could.  Imagine what you could get lithium battery prices from
the Chinese down to if you dangles a $30M order in front of them.  I
bet you could buy 20 kWh packs for about $5K a piece.  Probably could
do lithium / AC conversions for $10K each with that type of
negotiating capital.




------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 12:53:15 -0700
From: Dave Hymers <dhymers@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Great little VIDEO of the Fiat e500 EV ... AT
	 SPEED at MONZA
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <ec811c3f0911101153s2fcd64bbyb2f105feddc46add@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

I have a couple of questions now, combining this thread and the No Chrysler
EV,
Was Chrysler/fiat given money specifically to sell an EV over here ?
Will we even see regular Fiat 500's over here under the Chrysler badge ? or
sold as Fiats ?
Would we see Fiat selling anything here that wouldn't have a Chrysler badge
?

I'm highly confused.... I really want to see this little car arrive on US
soil, EV or not frankly it would be sad not to see it.
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End of EV Digest, Vol 28, Issue 14
**********************************

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#37629 From: ev-request@...
Date: Wed Nov 11, 2009 8:00 pm
Subject: EV Digest, Vol 28, Issue 15 		ev-request@...
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Today's Topics:

    1. Re: Chrysler No EVs (Bob Rice)
    2. Re: Great little VIDEO of the Fiat e500 EV ... AT SPEED at
       MONZA (David Roden)
    3. battery equalization..... brown sediment (Gary Patterson)
    4. Re: battery equalization..... brown sediment (Roland Wiench)
    5. Re: Anyone have thermal data for the Sky Energy 100ah cells,
       charge and discharge temp rise? (tomw)
    6. Re: Anyone have thermal data for the Sky Energy 100ah cells,
       charge and discharge temp rise? (Morgan LaMoore)
    7. Re: Anyone have thermal data for the Sky Energy 100ah cells,
       charge and discharge temp rise? (tomw)
    8. Re: Great little VIDEO of the Fiat e500 EV ... AT SPEED
       atMONZA (Bob Rice)
    9. Re: DC-DC (tomw)
   10. Re: Performance vs temperature..........it SUCKS! (Bob Rice)
   11. Re: Great little VIDEO of the Fiat e500 EV ... AT SPEED
       atMONZA (Roger Heuckeroth)
   12. Going halvsies (Sean Korb)
   13. Re: DC-DC (rodhower@...)
   14. Re: Great little VIDEO of the Fiat e500 EV ... AT SPEED
       atMONZA (Dave Hymers)
   15. Re: Great little VIDEO of the Fiat e500 EV ... AT
       SPEEDatMONZA (Bob Rice)
   16. Re: Great little VIDEO of the Fiat e500 EV ... AT
       SPEEDatMONZA (Bob Rice)
   17. Fwd: Great little VIDEO of the Fiat e500 EV ... AT
       SPEEDatMONZA (Dave Hymers)
   18. Re: Great little VIDEO of the Fiat e500 EV ... AT
       SPEEDatMONZA (Dave Hymers)
   19. Re: Going halvsies (Seth Rothenberg)
   20. Re: DC-DC (tomw)
   21. Re: Anyone have thermal data for the Sky Energy 100ah cells,
       charge and discharge temp rise? (Morgan LaMoore)
   22. Re: Anyone have thermal data for the Sky Energy 100ah cells,
       charge and discharge temp rise? (Kent.Barnes)
   23. Re: Anyone have thermal data for the Sky Energy 100ah cells,
       charge and discharge temp rise? (Bob Rice)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 16:44:13 -0500
From: "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Chrysler No EVs
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <41536467DD3A400393EAF4FF0B77D42A@adminwlzisp2uc>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original

    Yeah! Shoot that to Lee Hart for building the Sunrise EV-2! Well, MAYBE I
could double or quadruple MY production rate of about one a year?!Or spread
a little sead money from that to get a few prototypes going. The factory
would come later AFTER the car sold itself??!!

     Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas A. Stansfield" <Doug@...>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>;
<ev-bounces@...>
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 1:30 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Chrysler No EVs


>I have contacted my congressman and my senators regarding the $70 Million
> Grant they received and asked them to take it back and give the money to
> another EV manufacturer.  All of us could make 1000s of EVs for that
> cost!!!!
>
> Sincerely;
>
> Douglas A. Stansfield
> President
> www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
> Doug@...
> 973-875-6276 (office)
> 973-670-9208 (cell)
> 973-440-1619 (fax)
>
> WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
> And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On
> Behalf
> Of Zeke Yewdall
> Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 1:20 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Chrysler No EVs
>
> There goes the one thing that could have possibly convinced me to buy a
> chrysler ever......
>
> On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 10:02 AM, Roger Heuckeroth
> <rheuckeroth@...>wrote:
>
>> That sucks!
>>
>> On Nov 10, 2009, at 11:43 AM, David Dymaxion wrote:
>>
>> > http://www.sustainablebusiness.com/index.cfm/go/news.display/id/19208
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -------------- next part --------------
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>> > General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
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>> >
>>
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------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 18:21:05 -0500
From: "David Roden" <evpost@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Great little VIDEO of the Fiat e500 EV ... AT
	 SPEED at MONZA
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4AF9AF11.12303.F3726D@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

On 10 Nov 2009 at 12:53, Dave Hymers wrote:

> I really want to see this little car arrive on US
> soil, EV or not frankly it would be sad not to see it.

I hate to seem callous, but I have to just shrug.  There are dozens of fine
small cars sold everywhere else in the world and many of them would be
excellent EV conversion candidates.  They never show up here.

Why is that?  US consumer interest in very small cars is ... well ... very
small.

I can see some risk that splitting that limited market between the Smart
Fortwo and the Fiat 500 might knock both of them out of this market, further
limiting our choices.  So I expect that Fiat will study carefully the sales
and profit potential of any vehicle they consider offering here, regardless
of whether it's powered by electricity, gasoline, diesel fuel, or rubber
bands.

As for Fiat killing Chrysler's EV program, is anyone really surprised?  As
I've posted here many times, most of the major automakers have never
hesitated to accept federal bucks for EV "research," with no guarantees that
they'll do anything real with that money.

The automakers have promised us production EVs many times in the past.  They
have yet to deliver an EV that I can walk into a showroom and write a check
for.

Still waiting for that electric Chevette ...

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 20:49:08 -0500
From: Gary Patterson <gpatterson53@...>
Subject: [EVDL] battery equalization..... brown sediment
To: <ev@...>
Message-ID: <BLU137-W1202A86E7CCB02DB2ADED2DAAA0@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"


I equalized my ev pack for the first time today.  The cells bubbled gently and
nothing got too warm.  Then the electrolyte got cloudy with a light brown
sediment. Have I ruined my batteries??



Gary

_________________________________________________________________
Windows 7: Unclutter your desktop.
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9690331&ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL\
_WIN_evergreen:112009
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Message: 4
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 19:20:13 -0800
From: "Roland Wiench" <ev_7@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] battery equalization..... brown sediment
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <BLU144-DS5296FB41B6D39BDEAC0F5BEAA0@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"




----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Patterson" <gpatterson53@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 5:49 PM
Subject: [EVDL] battery equalization..... brown sediment


>
> I equalized my ev pack for the first time today.  The cells bubbled gently
> and nothing got too warm.  Then the electrolyte got cloudy with a light
> brown sediment. Have I ruined my batteries??
>
>
>
> Gary
>
Hello Gary,

This does not happen after the battery ages over a period of time.  If these
are new batteries, check the manufacture date.  If they are over three
months old after you received them, then these batteries have not been
recycle by the dealer.

My battery dealer never have batteries over 3 months and if they are charge
in the 3rd month, there must be dealer date stamp that he has done this
which is require by the manufacturer.  Sometimes there is a dealer label on
the side of the battery that notes this.

This brown material is the active positive plate material that flakes off
which is lead oxide. It builds up in the bottom of the cell.  When you do a
equalize charge,  some cells that are fully charge to 100% SOC, are
overcharge, while the other cells are charging.

The cells that are at 100% SOC, the electrolyte is receiving most of the
charging energy and not the grids.  This action or bubble factor is stirring
up this material.

This happens faster when the batteries are cold.  When charging a cold
battery the battery plates expand and while discharging they shrink back
which causes more of this lead oxide to flake off.

This action normally happens after the batteries that have soft active
material or pure lead and have about 2000 or more cycles and/or four or more
years on them.

Manufacturers of some battery harden the active grid compound with antimony,
cadmium or cobalt to increase there life.  My last set of batteries had a
lead antimony alloy.  They went 8 years and 8 months with out any lead oxide
material in the electrolyte.

My first set of batteries back in 1975 had this lead oxide floating in the
electrolyte, because the batteries where in aluminum boxes that was expose
to very low ambient air.  This show up only after 8 years of usage.

Roland



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 19:27:13 -0800 (PST)
From: tomw <tomofreno2000@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Anyone have thermal data for the Sky Energy 100ah
	 cells, charge and discharge temp rise?
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <1257910033374-585665.post@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


My SkyEnergy cells came with documentation showing state of charge at time of
shipment and internal resistance.  The latter ranges from 0.021 to 0.025
mOhm.  So I would expect around 5W per cell at 150A pack current, assuming
the cells are all in series.

Tom


ianaudio wrote:
>
> I considering what to do about power dissapation in the battery box.  I've
> got 96 of the SE 100ah cells in a closed box, an old US Electricar S10.
> I've also got an Elithion BMS.  I haven't been able to find any power
> dissapation information for either the cells or the BMS.  Has anyone
> observed the temperature rise on charge and discharge with one of these
> setups?  I'm contemplating adding 2 4" fans to each side of the battery
> box, but I don't want to cut the holes if I don't need to.  I figure since
> the BMS is measuring temperature and has fan control outputs, there must
> be a reason to supply a little air motion over the cells.
>
> Paul Wallace
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
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>
>
>

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------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 08:01:59 -0600
From: Morgan LaMoore <morganl@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Anyone have thermal data for the Sky Energy 100ah
	 cells, charge and discharge temp rise?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <4230c7190911110601r673dc5aeq91985b9a809ec464@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 9:27 PM, tomw <tomofreno2000@...> wrote:
>
> My SkyEnergy cells came with documentation showing state of charge at time of
> shipment and internal resistance.  The latter ranges from 0.021 to 0.025
> mOhm.  So I would expect around 5W per cell at 150A pack current, assuming
> the cells are all in series.
>
> Tom

Tom,

.021 to .025 mOhm is amazingly low; if the cells were that good, they
could perform like A123.

I expect that they measured the internal "resistance" at 1kHz, which
could be quite a bit lower than the DC internal resistance.

Based on their spec of max current of 4C for 20s, I expect at worst
1.2V sag, or 3mOhm impedance. I don't think they would be better than
1mOhm; otherwise they could rate the cells for more current.

If Sky Energy cells have virtually no voltage sag even at maximum
current, I'm wrong, but I don't expect that.

-Morgan LaMoore



------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 06:18:25 -0800 (PST)
From: tomw <tomofreno2000@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Anyone have thermal data for the Sky Energy 100ah
	 cells, charge and discharge temp rise?
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <1257949105784-585869.post@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


Whoops, typo!  Make that an order of magnitude lower, about 0.23 mOhm on
average.  Don't know why I stuck that zero in there.  Thanks for correcting
me Morgan.

Tom


Morgan LaMoore wrote:
>
> On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 9:27 PM, tomw <tomofreno2000@...> wrote:
>>
>> My SkyEnergy cells came with documentation showing state of charge at
>> time of
>> shipment and internal resistance.  The latter ranges from 0.021 to 0.025
>> mOhm.  So I would expect around 5W per cell at 150A pack current,
>> assuming
>> the cells are all in series.
>>
>> Tom
>
> Tom,
>
> .021 to .025 mOhm is amazingly low; if the cells were that good, they
> could perform like A123.
>
> I expect that they measured the internal "resistance" at 1kHz, which
> could be quite a bit lower than the DC internal resistance.
>
> Based on their spec of max current of 4C for 20s, I expect at worst
> 1.2V sag, or 3mOhm impedance. I don't think they would be better than
> 1mOhm; otherwise they could rate the cells for more current.
>
> If Sky Energy cells have virtually no voltage sag even at maximum
> current, I'm wrong, but I don't expect that.
>
> -Morgan LaMoore
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
>

--
View this message in context:
http://n4.nabble.com/Anyone-have-thermal-data-for-the-Sky-Energy-100ah-cells-cha\
rge-and-discharge-temp-rise-tp585148p585869.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.



------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 09:24:39 -0500
From: "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Great little VIDEO of the Fiat e500 EV ... AT
	 SPEED atMONZA
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <924DC685EB974D2AA21366CFA6C3B7A0@adminwlzisp2uc>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original


----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <evpost@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 6:21 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Great little VIDEO of the Fiat e500 EV ... AT SPEED
atMONZA


> On 10 Nov 2009 at 12:53, Dave Hymers wrote:
>
>> I really want to see this little car arrive on US
>> soil, EV or not frankly it would be sad not to see it.
>
> I hate to seem callous, but I have to just shrug.  There are dozens of
> fine
> small cars sold everywhere else in the world and many of them would be
> excellent EV conversion candidates.  They never show up here.

      The VW Diseasel "Lupo" for example; A Prius humbling 70 MPG?
Jokes -Wagen missed the boat......Titanic? by NEVER bring them
HERE!!!Simpler drive train without all the hybrid fa da rah!

       And I guess you, as an individual, can't GO there and ship home a
stripped out body to convert?Or COULD a persom DO that as a one-off for his
own use, flying below the NITSA radar?Or a biz set up Over There to do just
that? Containers of clean Trabbis, Fiats etc? Sans engines?
>
> Why is that?  US consumer interest in very small cars is ... well ... very

> small.

     Oh but THAT will chane when gas is rationed, or not available?US~ian
Sheeple have VERY short memories! This is a lot of our problem?!

> I can see some risk that splitting that limited market between the Smart
> Fortwo and the Fiat 500 might knock both of them out of this market,
> further
> limiting our choices.  So I expect that Fiat will study carefully the
> sales
> and profit potential of any vehicle they consider offering here,
> regardless
> of whether it's powered by electricity, gasoline, diesel fuel, or rubber
> bands.

      Ya MEAN Flea-Ats DON'T run on rubber bands, another urban myth busted!
The not so Smart For-Two? Cute, but you can blow it away with a stock Prius!
AND take your friends with you!

>   Well, it WAS proposed well over 100 years ago to run STREETCARS with
> "Clockwork" springs? EVER take apart a Victrola (Boy! That dates me?)That
> BIG coil spring nest? You WILL get a surprise IF you DARE to pull it
> apart! You will have a ROOMFULL of strap springs! I used to splice them
> together, to fix a dead Victrola! Dozens of bigger spring container coiled
> up under the floor, geared to run the car! Had "Regen" too, to stop you
> rewound the springs a tad.Like the "Air Car, it came too late when the
> capable Electric Cars took over. But running streetcars with a variation
> of lightning didn't exactly evoke travelers' confidence. I mean, horses
> wre ALREADY perfected? Worked fairly well, but use fuel, even if NOT
> working, like Sheeple, and have NO emmission controls, even the newest
> models. However the exhaust helps garden's grow? Not so with infernal
> Combustion engines' output!

> As for Fiat killing Chrysler's EV program, is anyone really surprised?  As
> I've posted here many times, most of the major automakers have never
> hesitated to accept federal bucks for EV "research," with no guarantees
> that
> they'll do anything real with that money.

>   Yeah! WHERES the Circuit? Crapsler ANNOUNCED it? It was gunna be a DC
> car, too? I THOUGHT Flea-At was gunna do an EV on their own?They coulda
> cheaked out Marko's Fee Amp for ideas?

> The automakers have promised us production EVs many times in the past.
> They
> have yet to deliver an EV that I can walk into a showroom and write a
> check
> for.

    David, I'm afraid ya got a LOOONG wait! Like down at the station, ready
to hop on a 3 hour  Bullet Train, to NYC for a weakend.Oh SURE the moribund
Auto Co's took THE money, fresh off the printing presses (ANOTHER issue?) In
that EV's and Bullet Trains ARE a Warm, not hot, topic, is a start?At least
the Feds DID give Tesla some money? MAYBE you COULD buy a Tesla "S" model in
yours and MY lifetime? Or S.N.C.F. the French RR, would want to expand their
market to USA?

> Still waiting for that electric Chevette ...But you CAN have an electric
> Trabbi?(Trabant?)Well they SAY?!

      Don't feell bad, STILL waiting for Bob Aronson's Tri-Polar Led Acid
badd-ery!!Longer than most Listers have been ALIVE!

     Other Trivia: A EV born at my place; Mike's '97 S-10 will be unveiled at
our regularly scheduled meeting on Sat, the 14th! As you Least Coasters know
it has lived here about 6 months or more as we have sorta overcome MANY
silly setbacks: S-10's aren't created equil! Lottsa sutile differences!So?
Anothe EV joins our "Fleet"I think we have about a dozen, V-Dubs, Rangers
Saturns , Subarus, in our area?Oh? Charger is coming TODAY! We're hooked up
for 144 volts! Woo Hoo! No more vice grips holding cables together so it can
be moved in/out of garage, or up an' down my local roads! and shunted about
the yard!Details! Hook up vacuum pump, my signiture charge plug in gas
filler hole and flap, IF I can find ANOTHER "Boycott OPEC Use Electric Fuel"
sticker? So come on out, join the festivities!

      Seeya

      Bob

      Killingworth, CT



------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 06:34:31 -0800 (PST)
From: tomw <tomofreno2000@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC-DC
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <1257950071827-585876.post@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


I bought one of the "no name" converters Cloud Electric sells and connected
it to the pack through a Magnacraft ssr rated at 10A continuous and 27A
surge, 3-32VDC input, 3-200VDC output. It appears to work fine from the few
times I have tested it.  No manufacturer name or documentation came with the
DC/DC, but I found that it is produced by the same company that makes the
Chinoz charger.  I emailed them at the address on their website and they
sent me a spec sheet the same day (China time).  I was concerned that it
might draw some current from the 12V battery when the vehicle was not in use
so I asked if they recommend disconnecting it from the 12V battery when not
in use.  They do.  So I've ordered yet another relay.  They show a relay on
the positive output only, so I bought an automotive SPST N.O. relay rated
for 35A and 100A surge current (the converter puts out 30A, so I expect a
bit over 3 A from my ~ 115V pack).

Tom


Mike Boyles wrote:
>
> I am working on the wiring diagram for my conversion and I would like
> to know if I should disconnect the DC-DC Converter from the pack when
> the ignition key is turned off. I have seen circuits floating around
> showing it both ways. If so, can anyone suggest a source for a DPDT or
> DPST relay with a 12V coil for a 144V nominal pack?
>
> Thanks for your help!
>
>
> --
> MikeB2
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
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>
>
>

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------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 09:39:11 -0500
From: "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Performance vs temperature..........it SUCKS!
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <D7054855401146F1B3E9834EC034DF01@adminwlzisp2uc>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original


----- Original Message -----
From: "David Nelson" <gizmoev@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 1:50 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Performance vs temperature..........it SUCKS!


>> few hundred REAL English MILES, not wimpy K's!?
>
> I thought MILES were for those wimps who didn't like to count as high ;)
    Like buying GAS in Litres, NOBODY wants to count zillions of itty bitty
liters! Soda? OK .sorta used to 2 liter Cokes, etc.
> --
> David D. Nelson
> http://evalbum.com/1328
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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>



------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 09:51:13 -0500
From: Roger Heuckeroth <rheuckeroth@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Great little VIDEO of the Fiat e500 EV ... AT
	 SPEED atMONZA
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <C573A07D-E08B-40E3-952D-C31A43421FCC@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes


On Nov 11, 2009, at 9:24 AM, Bob Rice wrote:

> The VW Diseasel "Lupo" for example; A Prius humbling 70 MPG?
> Jokes -Wagen missed the boat......Titanic? by NEVER bring them
> HERE!!!Simpler drive train without all the hybrid fa da rah!

I just bought a new 2010 Jetta TDI Sportswagen.  All the dealers
around here said, "get in line 3-6 months to get one".  I got lucky
because someone cancelled, and I have bought two other vehicles from
the same dealer, so they offered to me first.

One dealer told me that VW does not believe there is that much of a
market over here for diesels.  They decided to only make so many for
the US, and that is it.  Although, as you point out diesels are the
big sellers in Europe.  You have to wonder... is VW management just
stupid, or are there other political forces at play.  Why not ramp up
production to meet demand?  That would be the prudent thing to do.
The dealer said they lost dozens of sales during the cash for clunkers
program, because they had no TDI's available.

Anyway, I'm loving the MPGs on this new TDI.  I'll feel less guilty
making the trip out to your meeting in the Jetta vs my truck.  I'll
try to make the one next Saturday.



------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 09:56:20 -0500
From: Sean Korb <spkorb@...>
Subject: [EVDL] Going halvsies
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <9ce6ff220911110656q3630c13ei3f79b23b30a293c7@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Hi listers,

I found the disk brake upgrade for my Metropolitan and an S-10 rear
axle with 4:11 gearing.  I was originally going to load it up
with 10 12v lead acid batteries but the Lithium Ion batteries
have so much momentum and buzz and.... well, success behind them
that I thought 2 strings of TS 100AH batteries would get me the
50 mile round trip commute I was targeting.  That would be 34
batteries in series and another 34 in parallel.  That's pretty
expensive compared to 10 T-1275 batteries.

If I started with 34 batteries for a single string, I thought I
could get 15 or 20 miles out of that with 2/3 the investment
and a chance to learn the technology, but would I toast the
batteries with the current I would draw?  When this motor
and controller was in a S-10 pickup it would occasionally draw
over 200A. It doesn't seem like a lot to draw from lead cells
but the TS batteries seem a little fragile.

thanks,
sean

--
Sean Korb spkorb@... http://www.spkorb.org
'65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera #1382
"The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
"Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso



------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 07:06:28 -0800 (PST)
From: rodhower@...
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC-DC
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <765996.12377.qm@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Who did you send your request to regarding the spec sheet?
I looked up Chinoz charger and they have the Delta Q copy,
http://www.fuzing.com/vli/003581c98338/battery-charge-for-electranic-vehicle
I didn't see any reference to the DC/DC converter.
Kelly does sell the DC/DC, but I didn't see any spec sheets,
https://www.kellycontroller.com/shop/?mod=cat&cat_id=10
I have the HWZ1-DC-DC, t:0512-58658678
Thanks,
Rod

--- On Wed, 11/11/09, tomw <tomofreno2000@...> wrote:

> From: tomw <tomofreno2000@...>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC-DC
> To: ev@...
> Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 9:34 AM
>
> I bought one of the "no name" converters Cloud Electric
> sells and connected
> it to the pack through a Magnacraft ssr rated at 10A
> continuous and 27A
> surge, 3-32VDC input, 3-200VDC output. It appears to work
> fine from the few
> times I have tested it.? No manufacturer name or
> documentation came with the
> DC/DC, but I found that it is produced by the same company
> that makes the
> Chinoz charger.? I emailed them at the address on
> their website and they
> sent me a spec sheet the same day (China time).? I was
> concerned that it
> might draw some current from the 12V battery when the
> vehicle was not in use
> so I asked if they recommend disconnecting it from the 12V
> battery when not
> in use.? They do.? So I've ordered yet another
> relay.? They show a relay on
> the positive output only, so I bought an automotive SPST
> N.O. relay rated
> for 35A and 100A surge current (the converter puts out 30A,
> so I expect a
> bit over 3 A from my ~ 115V pack).
>
> Tom
>
>
> Mike Boyles wrote:
> >
> > I am working on the wiring diagram for my conversion
> and I would like
> > to know if I should disconnect the DC-DC Converter
> from the pack when
> > the ignition key is turned off. I have seen circuits
> floating around
> > showing it both ways. If so, can anyone suggest a
> source for a DPDT or
> > DPST relay with a 12V coil for a 144V nominal pack?
> >
> > Thanks for your help!
> >
> >
> > --
> > MikeB2
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> > Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> > Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> > Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://n4.nabble.com/DC-DC-tp463386p585876.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
> archive at Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>



------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 08:30:26 -0700
From: Dave Hymers <dhymers@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Great little VIDEO of the Fiat e500 EV ... AT
	 SPEED atMONZA
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <ec811c3f0911110730l76b60a5fuc8dba1505a97f48c@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

oh my, I would LOVE a Lupo. They sell them in Mexico !!
I know this is wandering off topic quite a bit, but I live in Tucson, pretty
close to the border, so we see
LOTS of small cars cruising around with Sonoran plates on, why can't I buy
that !??!?!?
It gets pretty frustrating.

Anybody ever imported a recently built (1995 newer) small glider from Mexico
?
so many small cars, so many stupid import laws......

Has anybody seen/converted a Chevy Tornado ?
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------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 10:42:28 -0500
From: "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Great little VIDEO of the Fiat e500 EV ... AT
	 SPEEDatMONZA
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <7F4FD1318D394DDD9DBAF9DFAD19869B@adminwlzisp2uc>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original

    Hi Roger;

    Lucky you! To get a Jokes-wagen TDI Sportwagen! Sure bring it over, do
show an' tell! VW doesn't wanna rock the boat(Titanic) by selling fuel
miser-ly cars HERE as the US is OWNED by the Oil Co's Who's kidding who? Of
COUSE VW coulda make a killing , sales wise! But they wouldn't bother. Might
piss off the powers that be? But of COURSE they rip you off for Diseasel
fuel,about the same ratio as the diesel cars miliage gets? I remenber long
ago that Diesel was Cheaper than gas!Hell! It's easier to refine, etc?In my
travels to the Left Coast that gas stations had Diesel for GAS prices! But
IF VW just sent a few boatloads of TDI's here they would find warm garsages
and loving homes?

    Seeya

    Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Heuckeroth" <rheuckeroth@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 9:51 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Great little VIDEO of the Fiat e500 EV ... AT
SPEEDatMONZA


>
> On Nov 11, 2009, at 9:24 AM, Bob Rice wrote:
>
>> The VW Diseasel "Lupo" for example; A Prius humbling 70 MPG?
>> Jokes -Wagen missed the boat......Titanic? by NEVER bring them
>> HERE!!!Simpler drive train without all the hybrid fa da rah!
>
> I just bought a new 2010 Jetta TDI Sportswagen.  All the dealers
> around here said, "get in line 3-6 months to get one".  I got lucky
> because someone cancelled, and I have bought two other vehicles from
> the same dealer, so they offered to me first.
>
> One dealer told me that VW does not believe there is that much of a
> market over here for diesels.  They decided to only make so many for
> the US, and that is it.  Although, as you point out diesels are the
> big sellers in Europe.  You have to wonder... is VW management just
> stupid, or are there other political forces at play.  Why not ramp up
> production to meet demand?  That would be the prudent thing to do.
> The dealer said they lost dozens of sales during the cash for clunkers
> program, because they had no TDI's available.
>
> Anyway, I'm loving the MPGs on this new TDI.  I'll feel less guilty
> making the trip out to your meeting in the Jetta vs my truck.  I'll
> try to make the one next Saturday.
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



------------------------------

Message: 16
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 10:44:57 -0500
From: "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Great little VIDEO of the Fiat e500 EV ... AT
	 SPEEDatMONZA
To: <dhymers@...>, "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
	 <ev@...>
Message-ID: <2FE64232C5F240A5BB81160B06BF8328@adminwlzisp2uc>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original

   Dave; Can ya go to Mexico and BUY a Lupo and drive it home? With our "Open
Boarder" policy, what's a car or two?? But with SHAFTA Laws you MIGHT be
able to import a car-cus?

      Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Hymers" <dhymers@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 10:30 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Great little VIDEO of the Fiat e500 EV ... AT
SPEEDatMONZA


> oh my, I would LOVE a Lupo. They sell them in Mexico !!
> I know this is wandering off topic quite a bit, but I live in Tucson,
> pretty
> close to the border, so we see
> LOTS of small cars cruising around with Sonoran plates on, why can't I buy
> that !??!?!?
> It gets pretty frustrating.
>
> Anybody ever imported a recently built (1995 newer) small glider from
> Mexico
> ?
> so many small cars, so many stupid import laws......
>
> Has anybody seen/converted a Chevy Tornado ?
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
>
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t.html
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



------------------------------

Message: 17
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 08:54:15 -0700
From: Dave Hymers <dhymers@...>
Subject: [EVDL] Fwd: Great little VIDEO of the Fiat e500 EV ... AT
	 SPEEDatMONZA
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <ec811c3f0911110754w142c0024h5e842b8f8a29b1c6@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Dave Hymers <dhymers@...>
Date: Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 8:53 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Great little VIDEO of the Fiat e500 EV ... AT
SPEEDatMONZA
To: Bob Rice <bobrice@...>


>From this forum post:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4262583&page=1

I can gather its probably a freaking bureaucratic nightmare and a half......
:(

It may be way easier to import just the glider though, since no emissions
will ever be produced by that.
Apparently VW crash tested it here, but it was pulled before emissions
testing was done on their small diesels ?

I would love to take a trip to a Mexican wrecking yard and see if there are
a couple
of suitable gliders I could drag back to the US....
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------------------------------

Message: 18
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 09:27:19 -0700
From: Dave Hymers <dhymers@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Great little VIDEO of the Fiat e500 EV ... AT
	 SPEEDatMONZA
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <ec811c3f0911110827w37a0f39fn217eb735e53b71c0@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Here's a crazy Lupo:
http://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-news/twin-engine-vw-lupo-ar72081/picture291455.\
html

So, an EV conversion isn't out of the question, any of our European members
know of a lupo ev ?
I can't find one...
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------------------------------

Message: 19
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 11:52:45 -0500
From: Seth Rothenberg <nevjersey@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Going halvsies
To: spkorb@..., Electric Vehicle Discussion List
	 <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <e80545a50911110852i33b7640q9e0ad878b29ceffd@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Sean,
I am using similar logic - I bought 50 of them,
am wiring them now.
Once I see how my range is, and check
Curb Weight compared to GVWR,
I'll see if the second pack can be the
same size.    If not, it will be lighter cells,
same voltage.  (50 cells is the max I
can put to my controller)

My analogy for this model is,
there are gas vehicles that carry
two tanks.  When one is empty,
open this valve, close that one...

It's not ideal, but it allows
the step-in approach....

(Of course, I might not need the second pack,
once the President of the company sees
what I made, maybe he'll get me an outlet :-)

Seth



------------------------------

Message: 20
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 09:25:21 -0800 (PST)
From: tomw <tomofreno2000@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC-DC
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <1257960321856-585975.post@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8


http://www.hztiecheng.com/index.asp


evdesigner wrote:
>
> Who did you send your request to regarding the spec sheet?
> I looked up Chinoz charger and they have the Delta Q copy,
> http://www.fuzing.com/vli/003581c98338/battery-charge-for-electranic-vehicle
> I didn't see any reference to the DC/DC converter.
> Kelly does sell the DC/DC, but I didn't see any spec sheets,
> https://www.kellycontroller.com/shop/?mod=cat&cat_id=10
> I have the HWZ1-DC-DC, t:0512-58658678
> Thanks,
> Rod
>
> --- On Wed, 11/11/09, tomw <tomofreno2000@...> wrote:
>
>> From: tomw <tomofreno2000@...>
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC-DC
>> To: ev@...
>> Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 9:34 AM
>>
>> I bought one of the "no name" converters Cloud Electric
>> sells and connected
>> it to the pack through a Magnacraft ssr rated at 10A
>> continuous and 27A
>> surge, 3-32VDC input, 3-200VDC output. It appears to work
>> fine from the few
>> times I have tested it.? No manufacturer name or
>> documentation came with the
>> DC/DC, but I found that it is produced by the same company
>> that makes the
>> Chinoz charger.? I emailed them at the address on
>> their website and they
>> sent me a spec sheet the same day (China time).? I was
>> concerned that it
>> might draw some current from the 12V battery when the
>> vehicle was not in use
>> so I asked if they recommend disconnecting it from the 12V
>> battery when not
>> in use.? They do.? So I've ordered yet another
>> relay.? They show a relay on
>> the positive output only, so I bought an automotive SPST
>> N.O. relay rated
>> for 35A and 100A surge current (the converter puts out 30A,
>> so I expect a
>> bit over 3 A from my ~ 115V pack).
>>
>> Tom
>>
>>
>> Mike Boyles wrote:
>> >
>> > I am working on the wiring diagram for my conversion
>> and I would like
>> > to know if I should disconnect the DC-DC Converter
>> from the pack when
>> > the ignition key is turned off. I have seen circuits
>> floating around
>> > showing it both ways. If so, can anyone suggest a
>> source for a DPDT or
>> > DPST relay with a 12V coil for a 144V nominal pack?
>> >
>> > Thanks for your help!
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > MikeB2
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
>> > Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>> > Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
>> > Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://n4.nabble.com/DC-DC-tp463386p585876.html
>> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
>> archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
>

--
View this message in context: http://n4.nabble.com/DC-DC-tp463386p585975.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.



------------------------------

Message: 21
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 11:35:38 -0600
From: Morgan LaMoore <morganl@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Anyone have thermal data for the Sky Energy 100ah
	 cells, charge and discharge temp rise?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <4230c7190911110935j4c1ed3a9l4cc41e2f963fe764@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

0.23 mOhm still seems unreasonably low for DC resistance; that would
be .092V sag per cell at 4C discharge, which is about right for A123
but far too good for these cells.

I would guess that numbers based on measurements of high-current
discharge will be much less impressive.

-Morgan

On 11/11/09, tomw <tomofreno2000@...> wrote:
>
> Whoops, typo!  Make that an order of magnitude lower, about 0.23 mOhm on
> average.  Don't know why I stuck that zero in there.  Thanks for correcting
> me Morgan.
>
> Tom
>
>
> Morgan LaMoore wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 9:27 PM, tomw <tomofreno2000@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> My SkyEnergy cells came with documentation showing state of charge at
>>> time of
>>> shipment and internal resistance.  The latter ranges from 0.021 to 0.025
>>> mOhm.  So I would expect around 5W per cell at 150A pack current,
>>> assuming
>>> the cells are all in series.
>>>
>>> Tom
>>
>> Tom,
>>
>> .021 to .025 mOhm is amazingly low; if the cells were that good, they
>> could perform like A123.
>>
>> I expect that they measured the internal "resistance" at 1kHz, which
>> could be quite a bit lower than the DC internal resistance.
>>
>> Based on their spec of max current of 4C for 20s, I expect at worst
>> 1.2V sag, or 3mOhm impedance. I don't think they would be better than
>> 1mOhm; otherwise they could rate the cells for more current.
>>
>> If Sky Energy cells have virtually no voltage sag even at maximum
>> current, I'm wrong, but I don't expect that.
>>
>> -Morgan LaMoore
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
>
http://n4.nabble.com/Anyone-have-thermal-data-for-the-Sky-Energy-100ah-cells-cha\
rge-and-discharge-temp-rise-tp585148p585869.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>



------------------------------

Message: 22
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 12:38:38 -0500
From: "Kent.Barnes" <kent.barnes@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Anyone have thermal data for the Sky Energy 100ah
	 cells, charge and discharge temp rise?
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	
<!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAAGkJh1sDZ1IpBbQZJ+3w+PCgAAAEAAAAKtGiTX6hJdEh8+C6EV6ivQB\
AAAAAA==@...>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I've requested removal from mail list twice already. What else do I need to
do to stop the emails????

-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
Of Morgan LaMoore
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 12:36 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Anyone have thermal data for the Sky Energy 100ah
cells,charge and discharge temp rise?

0.23 mOhm still seems unreasonably low for DC resistance; that would be
.092V sag per cell at 4C discharge, which is about right for A123 but far
too good for these cells.

I would guess that numbers based on measurements of high-current discharge
will be much less impressive.

-Morgan

On 11/11/09, tomw <tomofreno2000@...> wrote:
>
> Whoops, typo!  Make that an order of magnitude lower, about 0.23 mOhm
> on average.  Don't know why I stuck that zero in there.  Thanks for
> correcting me Morgan.
>
> Tom
>
>
> Morgan LaMoore wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 9:27 PM, tomw <tomofreno2000@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> My SkyEnergy cells came with documentation showing state of charge
>>> at time of shipment and internal resistance.  The latter ranges from
>>> 0.021 to 0.025 mOhm.  So I would expect around 5W per cell at 150A
>>> pack current, assuming the cells are all in series.
>>>
>>> Tom
>>
>> Tom,
>>
>> .021 to .025 mOhm is amazingly low; if the cells were that good, they
>> could perform like A123.
>>
>> I expect that they measured the internal "resistance" at 1kHz, which
>> could be quite a bit lower than the DC internal resistance.
>>
>> Based on their spec of max current of 4C for 20s, I expect at worst
>> 1.2V sag, or 3mOhm impedance. I don't think they would be better than
>> 1mOhm; otherwise they could rate the cells for more current.
>>
>> If Sky Energy cells have virtually no voltage sag even at maximum
>> current, I'm wrong, but I don't expect that.
>>
>> -Morgan LaMoore
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/ Usage guidelines:
>> http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://n4.nabble.com/Anyone-have-thermal-data-for-the-Sky-Energy-100ah
> -cells-charge-and-discharge-temp-rise-tp585148p585869.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/ Usage guidelines:
> http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/ Usage guidelines:
http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
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------------------------------

Message: 23
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 12:50:35 -0500
From: "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Anyone have thermal data for the Sky Energy 100ah
	 cells, charge and discharge temp rise?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <E6989F62D12E41F49524E02C390A68A1@adminwlzisp2uc>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original


----- Original Message -----
From: "Kent.Barnes" <kent.barnes@...>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 12:38 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Anyone have thermal data for the Sky Energy 100ah
cells,charge and discharge temp rise?


> I've requested removal from mail list twice already. What else do I need
> to
> do to stop the emails????


  Talk Politics!! Obama care, Illegal immigration, oil cartel!


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On
> Behalf
> Of Morgan LaMoore
> Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 12:36 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Anyone have thermal data for the Sky Energy 100ah
> cells,charge and discharge temp rise?
>
> 0.23 mOhm still seems unreasonably low for DC resistance; that would be
> .092V sag per cell at 4C discharge, which is about right for A123 but far
> too good for these cells.
>
> I would guess that numbers based on measurements of high-current discharge
> will be much less impressive.
>
> -Morgan
>
> On 11/11/09, tomw <tomofreno2000@...> wrote:
>>
>> Whoops, typo!  Make that an order of magnitude lower, about 0.23 mOhm
>> on average.  Don't know why I stuck that zero in there.  Thanks for
>> correcting me Morgan.
>>
>> Tom
>>
>>
>> Morgan LaMoore wrote:
>>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 9:27 PM, tomw <tomofreno2000@...> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> My SkyEnergy cells came with documentation showing state of charge
>>>> at time of shipment and internal resistance.  The latter ranges from
>>>> 0.021 to 0.025 mOhm.  So I would expect around 5W per cell at 150A
>>>> pack current, assuming the cells are all in series.
>>>>
>>>> Tom
>>>
>>> Tom,
>>>
>>> .021 to .025 mOhm is amazingly low; if the cells were that good, they
>>> could perform like A123.
>>>
>>> I expect that they measured the internal "resistance" at 1kHz, which
>>> could be quite a bit lower than the DC internal resistance.
>>>
>>> Based on their spec of max current of 4C for 20s, I expect at worst
>>> 1.2V sag, or 3mOhm impedance. I don't think they would be better than
>>> 1mOhm; otherwise they could rate the cells for more current.
>>>
>>> If Sky Energy cells have virtually no voltage sag even at maximum
>>> current, I'm wrong, but I don't expect that.
>>>
>>> -Morgan LaMoore
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/ Usage guidelines:
>>> http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>>> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
>>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://n4.nabble.com/Anyone-have-thermal-data-for-the-Sky-Energy-100ah
>> -cells-charge-and-discharge-temp-rise-tp585148p585869.html
>> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
>> Nabble.com.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/ Usage guidelines:
>> http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/ Usage guidelines:
> http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



------------------------------

_______________________________________________
EV@...
For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



End of EV Digest, Vol 28, Issue 15
**********************************

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (1)
#37630 From: ev-request@...
Date: Thu Nov 12, 2009 6:27 am
Subject: EV Digest, Vol 28, Issue 16 		ev-request@...
Send Email Send Email
  
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Today's Topics:

    1. DC battery charger (Collin Kidder)
    2. Re: DC battery charger (cowtown@...)
    3. Re: Great little VIDEO of the Fiat e500 EV ... AT SPEED
       atMONZA (EVDL Administrator)
    4. Unsubscribing (EVDL Administrator)
    5. Re: Great little VIDEO of the Fiat e500 EV ... AT SPEED
       atMONZA (EVDL Administrator)
    6. Re: DC battery charger (EVDL Administrator)
    7. Re: Anyone have thermal data for the Sky Energy 100ah cells,
       charge and discharge temp rise? (EVDL Administrator)
    8. Re: DC battery charger (Roland Wiench)
    9. Re: DC battery charger (Dennis Miles)
   10. Alternator instead of DC to DC converter? (Douglas A. Stansfield)
   11. Re: Alternator instead of DC to DC converter? (David Chapman)
   12. Re: Alternator instead of DC to DC converter?
       (Douglas A. Stansfield)
   13. Re: Alternator instead of DC to DC converter? (Roland Wiench)
   14. EV Grin (Buddy Mills)
   15. Re: Alternator instead of DC to DC converter? (EVDL Administrator)
   16. Re: Alternator instead of DC to DC converter?
       (Douglas A. Stansfield)
   17. Re: Alternator instead of DC to DC converter? (EVDL Administrator)
   18. Re: Alternator instead of DC to DC converter?
       (Douglas A. Stansfield)
   19. Re: Pre-charge Addition (Bill Dennis)
   20. Re: Alternator instead of DC to DC converter?
       (Douglas A. Stansfield)
   21. Nice Conversion For Sale if anyone is interested.....
       (Douglas A. Stansfield)
   22. Re: Pre-charge Addition (Morgan LaMoore)
   23. Re: Alternator instead of DC to DC converter? (Roland Wiench)
   24. Lee, You're Full of It--Inspiration, That Is (WAS:
       Pre-charge Addition) (Bill Dennis)
   25. Re: DC Battery Charger (Collin Kidder)
   26. Re: Lee, You're Full of It--Inspiration, That Is (WAS:
       Pre-charge Addition) (Morgan LaMoore)
   27. come on... someone must have seen cloudy battery fluid
       (Gary Patterson)
   28. Re: DC battery charger (joe)
   29. Re: Lee, You're Full of It--Inspiration, That Is (WAS:
       Pre-charge Addition) (Lee Hart)
   30. Re: DC Battery Charger (Lee Hart)
   31. Re: Going halvsies (Mike Nickerson)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 16:04:37 -0500
From: Collin Kidder <collink@...>
Subject: [EVDL] DC battery charger
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <4AFB26E5.20402@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

I've got a car with lithium ion batteries in a 370V pack. I've got a DC
converter to go from that to 13.5V for the normal car stuff. I'd like to
also put a 12V battery in as well to allow for better surge support,
running acc while the car is off, etc. My DC/DC converter is not meant
to be used as a battery charger. If I never let the 12V battery get very
low I could possibly cheat and just send 13.5V to the battery and let it
charge. But if the battery ever gets low it would overload the DC
converter. So, is there a good option (and hopefully cheap) option to
add a DC powered battery charger? (12V output. Amp output doesn't need
to be very high)

Part of the trouble is that 370V is quite high. Not very many DC
converters or 12V battery chargers support that sort of input.

I have thought about using diodes and a 6ohm power resistor to make a
sort of makeshift 2A charger and source isolation circuit. It'd be crude
but I think it's workable with only 2 power diodes and one power
resistor. Is there any reason such a simple solution to the problem
would be undesirable? I could draw something up real quick in a
schematic editor if it would help to visualize what I'm thinking of
doing here.



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 14:12:47 -0800
From: cowtown@...
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC battery charger
To: ev@...
Message-ID:
	 <20091111141247.92lwzqxjkcg4wcc4-pbjgbja@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes";
	 format="flowed"

<<< Part of the trouble is that 370V is quite high. Not very many DC
converters or 12V battery chargers support that sort of input. >>>

I can see 370V being a problem - your fully charged pack may get
higher than some HV converters (even a Vicor for that voltage is
200-400V, with cut-back above that, but at least it protects itself).



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 17:33:42 -0500
From: "EVDL Administrator" <evpost@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Great little VIDEO of the Fiat e500 EV ... AT
	 SPEED atMONZA
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4AFAF576.28470.28562B@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

On 11 Nov 2009 at 9:51, Roger Heuckeroth wrote:

> Anyway, I'm loving the MPGs on this new TDI.

A little of this discussion is OK, but please remember that fuel efficiency
of ICEs is off topic on a list for electric vehicles.

Thanks,

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" an "etpost" addresses will not
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 17:33:42 -0500
From: "EVDL Administrator" <evpost@...>
Subject: [EVDL] Unsubscribing
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4AFAF576.3878.285658@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

On 11 Nov 2009 at 12:38, Kent.Barnes wrote:

> I've requested removal from mail list twice already. What else do I need to do
> to stop the emails????

I  normally reply to these messages offlist, but for the sake of those who
may want to unsubscribe or suspend email, just this once, I'll remind
everybody of the procedure.

First, you should know that mailing lists are (ta-da) self-service.  Sorry,
posting that you want to be removed doesn't work.  All it does is annoy some
of the other list members.

It's actually pretty easy to unsubscribe yourself.  Not only did you get
instructions when you subscribed, the listserver also puts a link for
subscription options at the bottom of every message sent from this list -
including this one.

Follow that link and you'll find the instructions for unsubscribing,
suspending your email while you're away on holiday, et cetera.

You can also find instructions for unsubscribing here :

http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" an "etpost" addresses will not
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =




------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 17:33:42 -0500
From: "EVDL Administrator" <evpost@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Great little VIDEO of the Fiat e500 EV ... AT
	 SPEED atMONZA
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4AFAF576.13424.28560A@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

On 11 Nov 2009 at 9:24, Bob Rice wrote:

> Don't feel bad, STILL waiting for Bob Aronson's Tri-Polar Lead Acid
> badd-ery! Longer than most Listers have been ALIVE!

Yeah, it's been a while.  I first read about the "tri-polar lead cobalt
battery" in 1971, when I also read about his EFP Voltair EV with the fuel
cell range extender that I'd be able to buy "soon."  Heck, I've only been
waiting for GM to build that electric Chevette since 1978.

I don't know about the value of the cobalt, but I do recall that Aronson put
cell interconnectors in the bottom of the battery, figuring that the heat
convection resulting (I guess they were undersized) would help destratify
the electrolyte.  Not a bad idea, though I wonder if sealing them
sufficiently where they passed between cells wouldn't have been quite a
task.

Bob Aronson is one of the pioneers of the EV world, but I don't know how he
keeps going when (as far as I can tell) except for the Mars Electrics he's
never actually sold anything but one-off conversions.  (I think Bob
originally converted Roland's EV.)  Maybe he's independently wealthy and can
afford to keep tinkering.

Bob must be gettin' up in years there, like all of us.  Wonder if he'll ever
retire.

> IF I can find ANOTHER "Boycott OPEC Use Electric Fuel" sticker ...

If you can't, there are now several operations on the web which will make
custom stickers for you.  Just upload your artwork.  With many of them you
can even make a simple sticker right there on the website, with various
stock backgrounds and text you type in.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" an "etpost" addresses will not
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =




------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 17:43:12 -0500
From: "EVDL Administrator" <evpost@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC battery charger
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4AFAF7B0.23963.3108FD@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

On 11 Nov 2009 at 16:04, Collin Kidder wrote:

> Part of the trouble is that 370V is quite high. Not very many DC
> converters or 12V battery chargers support that sort of input.

Metric Mind offers MES-DEA DC:DC converters rated for use from 100 to 400
volts input.  They're a bit pricey, though.

How about using two somewhat smaller (not half size) DC:DC converters with
their outputs connected in parallel, each connected to half the traction
pack?

You'd need to make sure they're designed to share and play nicely together
before paralleling them.  Hmm, barring that, I wonder if you could have each
one charge a separate small 12v battery, then isolate those batteries from
each other and the car's 12v system with (fairly large) diodes.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" an "etpost" addresses will not
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 17:43:12 -0500
From: "EVDL Administrator" <evpost@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Anyone have thermal data for the Sky Energy 100ah
	 cells, charge and discharge temp rise?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4AFAF7B0.2598.3108CF@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

On 11 Nov 2009 at 12:50, Bob Rice wrote:

>  Talk Politics!! Obama care, Illegal immigration, oil cartel!

Good one.  Touche'.  ;-)

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" an "etpost" addresses will not
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =




------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 15:32:47 -0800
From: "Roland Wiench" <ev_7@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC battery charger
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <BLU144-DS514943C0BEF78E1CA4D01BEAA0@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Hello Collin,

I use a separate on board Smart Charger by Schumacher Model WM-6000A to
charge and/or maintainer for my 12 volt deep cycle battery. It goes on every
time I plug in the main AC plug. It is protected by a 20 amp circuit breaker
from the equipment panel.

It has a ampere range of 30, 10, and 2 amp.  Battery selections are regular,
deep cycle, AGM and Gel Cell.  It automatically bulk, equalize and then goes
to a maintainer charge. It also indicates voltage and state of charge.

I have a 12 volt deep cycle 135 AH Trojan battery on this charger since
April of 2002 and still going.

The IOTA DC-DC converters go off line when I turn off the ignition.  These
units would under charge this battery at 13.5 volts or over charge it at
14.5 volts.

Every time I plug in the AC, I just fold down the rear gate and push the
switch for 12 volt deep cycle and what ever ampere you want.

See  http://go-ev.net/pics/011.html  how this charger looks like.

I got this charger from Wal-Mart for about $40.00 back in 2002.

Roland




----- Original Message -----
From: "Collin Kidder" <collink@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 1:04 PM
Subject: [EVDL] DC battery charger


> I've got a car with lithium ion batteries in a 370V pack. I've got a DC
> converter to go from that to 13.5V for the normal car stuff. I'd like to
> also put a 12V battery in as well to allow for better surge support,
> running acc while the car is off, etc. My DC/DC converter is not meant
> to be used as a battery charger. If I never let the 12V battery get very
> low I could possibly cheat and just send 13.5V to the battery and let it
> charge. But if the battery ever gets low it would overload the DC
> converter. So, is there a good option (and hopefully cheap) option to
> add a DC powered battery charger? (12V output. Amp output doesn't need
> to be very high)
>
> Part of the trouble is that 370V is quite high. Not very many DC
> converters or 12V battery chargers support that sort of input.
>
> I have thought about using diodes and a 6ohm power resistor to make a
> sort of makeshift 2A charger and source isolation circuit. It'd be crude
> but I think it's workable with only 2 power diodes and one power
> resistor. Is there any reason such a simple solution to the problem
> would be undesirable? I could draw something up real quick in a
> schematic editor if it would help to visualize what I'm thinking of
> doing here.
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>



------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 18:19:24 -0500
From: Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC battery charger
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <2b4886ce0911111519q661ccf71r5c93bad38633b9fd@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Ok, so put in the 12V. battery, also an automatic charger from 120 ACV to
recharge that battery when you are charging your pack. Now connect the
output of the DC/DC and the 12V. battery to a "Combiner" like the RV guys
use to isolate two 12 V. sources (Basically two suitable Schotkey Diodes) so
which ever 12v. source is higher voltage will supply the load. And the DC/DC
won't try to recharge the 12 V. battery, and it gets recharged when you
charge the pack. I'm thinking this is an inexpensive and viable way to
accomplish your desired effect. [call me if the description doesn't make
sense.]
Regards,
  Dennis Miles,    (Director)
Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
Phone (863) 289 - 0690

On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 4:04 PM, Collin Kidder <collink@...> wrote:

> I've got a car with lithium ion batteries in a 370V pack. I've got a DC
> converter to go from that to 13.5V for the normal car stuff. I'd like to
> also put a 12V battery in as well to allow for better surge support,
> running acc while the car is off, etc. My DC/DC converter is not meant
> to be used as a battery charger. If I never let the 12V battery get very
> low I could possibly cheat and just send 13.5V to the battery and let it
> charge. But if the battery ever gets low it would overload the DC
> converter. So, is there a good option (and hopefully cheap) option to
> add a DC powered battery charger? (12V output. Amp output doesn't need
> to be very high)
>
> Part of the trouble is that 370V is quite high. Not very many DC
> converters or 12V battery chargers support that sort of input.
>
> I have thought about using diodes and a 6ohm power resistor to make a
> sort of makeshift 2A charger and source isolation circuit. It'd be crude
> but I think it's workable with only 2 power diodes and one power
> resistor. Is there any reason such a simple solution to the problem
> would be undesirable? I could draw something up real quick in a
> schematic editor if it would help to visualize what I'm thinking of
> doing here.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
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Message: 10
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 18:40:12 -0500
From: "Douglas A. Stansfield" <Doug@...>
Subject: [EVDL] Alternator instead of DC to DC converter?
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>,
	 <ev-bounces@...>
Message-ID: <006401ca6328$50ac20e0$f20462a0$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dear EV enthusiasts,



I have put two Kelly DC to DC converters in my EV and the second one has now
stopped charging my accessories battery and I am considering just installing
this low cost Alternator off the motor with a pulley instead.    Anybody
have any reason to not do this and try again with a different DC/DC
converter?  I can drive around in the mean time with a fully charged Deep
Cycle but that approach spooks me at night as I have had the Accessory
battery die at night before and don't like that feeling at all.  I live in
the country and there are NO street lights to start trying to figure out the
issue.



Since then, I have installed a Volt meter gauge strictly for the Accessory
battery.  Just in case it starts to look like it is going to go down when
the brake pedal is depressed, I know I don't have much time left which
happened tonight and thus figured out the DC/DC converter is toast again.



As always, appreciate the input ahead of time.



Doug Stansfield

www.EVAlbum.com/1973





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------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 15:55:16 -0800 (PST)
From: David Chapman <iasimovian@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Alternator instead of DC to DC converter?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <505720.35453.qm@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Its a simple but less effecient solution to the problem. This is the way my Gvan
was built, no dc-dc just an alt off the accessory drive.? If you drive off the
prime mover then you will only charge while moving but thats better than
nothing. And ICE alternators are very tough. David.


--- On Wed, 11/11/09, Douglas A. Stansfield <Doug@...>
wrote:


From: Douglas A. Stansfield <Doug@...>
Subject: [EVDL] Alternator instead of DC to DC converter?
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>,
ev-bounces@...
Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 4:40 PM


Dear EV enthusiasts,



I have put two Kelly DC to DC converters in my EV and the second one has now
stopped charging my accessories battery and I am considering just installing
this low cost Alternator off the motor with a pulley instead.? ? Anybody
have any reason to not do this and try again with a different DC/DC
converter?? I can drive around in the mean time with a fully charged Deep
Cycle but that approach spooks me at night as I have had the Accessory
battery die at night before and don't like that feeling at all.? I live in
the country and there are NO street lights to start trying to figure out the
issue.



Since then, I have installed a Volt meter gauge strictly for the Accessory
battery.? Just in case it starts to look like it is going to go down when
the brake pedal is depressed, I know I don't have much time left which
happened tonight and thus figured out the DC/DC converter is toast again.



As always, appreciate the input ahead of time.



Doug Stansfield

www.EVAlbum.com/1973





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------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:08:43 -0500
From: "Douglas A. Stansfield" <Doug@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Alternator instead of DC to DC converter?
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>,
	 <ev-bounces@...>
Message-ID: <006f01ca632c$4c618210$e5248630$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

The Alternator I am thinking of using is this one:
http://www.jcwhitney.com/jcwhitney/product.jcw?nval=0&statenval=200000363+19
84&productId=2018615&shopid=100001&pageid=13&skuId=488051&id=1697496&id=1697
496

It is rated at 200amps which is much higher than the DC/DC converter so I am
thinking that since I have a Deep Cycle accessory battery and keep it
charged while the main pack in charging thus the only time it would be taxed
is when I am stopped and the main motor isn't turning.  If the accessory
battery is starting to go dead, then even at an intersection at night I
could always take the car out of gear at the intersection and spin the motor
in order to help keep the accessory battery charging.  I think I am going to
go this way as it is only $41 and change and basically I could buy 3 of them
for the cost of 1 DC/DC converter.

Doug

-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
Of David Chapman
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 6:55 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Alternator instead of DC to DC converter?

Its a simple but less effecient solution to the problem. This is the way my
Gvan was built, no dc-dc just an alt off the accessory drive.? If you drive
off the prime mover then you will only charge while moving but thats better
than nothing. And ICE alternators are very tough. David.


--- On Wed, 11/11/09, Douglas A. Stansfield <Doug@...>
wrote:


From: Douglas A. Stansfield <Doug@...>
Subject: [EVDL] Alternator instead of DC to DC converter?
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>,
ev-bounces@...
Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 4:40 PM


Dear EV enthusiasts,



I have put two Kelly DC to DC converters in my EV and the second one has now
stopped charging my accessories battery and I am considering just installing
this low cost Alternator off the motor with a pulley instead.? ? Anybody
have any reason to not do this and try again with a different DC/DC
converter?? I can drive around in the mean time with a fully charged Deep
Cycle but that approach spooks me at night as I have had the Accessory
battery die at night before and don't like that feeling at all.? I live in
the country and there are NO street lights to start trying to figure out the
issue.



Since then, I have installed a Volt meter gauge strictly for the Accessory
battery.? Just in case it starts to look like it is going to go down when
the brake pedal is depressed, I know I don't have much time left which
happened tonight and thus figured out the DC/DC converter is toast again.



As always, appreciate the input ahead of time.



Doug Stansfield

www.EVAlbum.com/1973





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------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 16:41:12 -0800
From: "Roland Wiench" <ev_7@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Alternator instead of DC to DC converter?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>,
	 <ev-bounces@...>
Message-ID: <BLU144-DS58B2A5C5BCF1F6591D216BEA90@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Using a alternator works too.  I been using a very large one which is use to
put three heater loads on the motor while I go down very steep hills.  While
I go up hill, a micro switch opens a relay that opens the R-circuit to the
alternator or the 12 volt power to the alternator and then the DC-DC
converters kick in.

Here in Montana, I live in area where the hills are like a roller coaster.
Only up or down. This alternator acts just like REGEN braking.  In the
summer, I may want to let it go a speed.  One section I was able to coast
over 5 miles going up and down hills.

Don't want to do that in the winter time. One time I was going down a long
icy hill and did not dare hit the brakes.  It got up to 85 mph on that run
without hitting any cars.

Roland


----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas A. Stansfield" <Doug@...>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>;
<ev-bounces@...>
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 3:40 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Alternator instead of DC to DC converter?


> Dear EV enthusiasts,
>
>
>
> I have put two Kelly DC to DC converters in my EV and the second one has
> now
> stopped charging my accessories battery and I am considering just
> installing
> this low cost Alternator off the motor with a pulley instead.    Anybody
> have any reason to not do this and try again with a different DC/DC
> converter?  I can drive around in the mean time with a fully charged Deep
> Cycle but that approach spooks me at night as I have had the Accessory
> battery die at night before and don't like that feeling at all.  I live in
> the country and there are NO street lights to start trying to figure out
> the
> issue.
>
>
>
> Since then, I have installed a Volt meter gauge strictly for the Accessory
> battery.  Just in case it starts to look like it is going to go down when
> the brake pedal is depressed, I know I don't have much time left which
> happened tonight and thus figured out the DC/DC converter is toast again.
>
>
>
> As always, appreciate the input ahead of time.
>
>
>
> Doug Stansfield
>
> www.EVAlbum.com/1973
>
>
>
>
>
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
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> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>



------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 18:58:46 -0500
From: "Buddy Mills" <buddymills@...>
Subject: [EVDL] EV Grin
To: <ev@...>
Message-ID: <000301ca632a$e7faa5a0$b7eff0e0$@net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Just wanted to thank the listserv for all the valuable information and help
everyone has given.  I know I would have never attempted a task like this
without y'all's help.



100% road test / and state inspection today and better than 30 miles.  I
also took it up a few of the beast hills (no mountains in Williamsburg, VA)
and it preformed without a flaw.  Now I can hardly wait until new/more
amenable price on non-lead batteries comes about so I can try something new.
But that may be a couple of years down the road.



THANKS TO ALL!!!!!

Buddy Mills

  <mailto:buddymills@...> buddymills@...



Look mom, no gas.  <http://www.evalbum.com/2887> http://www.evalbum.com/2887



Disclaimer:  No animals were harmed or killed in the process of writing this
email.  Any stories to the contrary are, for the most part, either fictional
or greatly exaggerated.



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------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:39:05 -0500
From: "EVDL Administrator" <evpost@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Alternator instead of DC to DC converter?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4AFB12D9.4491.9B26A5@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

It's kind of like having a multiple speed transmission in a conversion -
it's less efficient (the alternator is worse in this regard than that trans
for sure), and heavier (it's probably better than the trans on this).  That
said, I doubt that the efficiency hit would be of great significance for
your range.

An alternator also requires a tailshaft on the motor; not all of them have
one.  It takes up more room under the hood, has MUCH less flexibility in
mounting, and requires a belt which takes a little bit of maintenance.

IMO bolting a DC:DC under the hood is much easier than making a bracket for
an alternator.  Saving that time and effort is worth a lot to me, but might
not be to you.

But most likely an alternator came free with your glider, so if your motor
has a tailshaft it's one solution.

One final thought.  No offense to anyone, but IMO Kelly might be considered
a second- or third-tier brand.  You don't always get what you pay for, but
you very seldom get what you don't pay for!  So you might also think about
anteing up a little (or a lot) more cash and trying a first-tier brand DC:DC
such as Sevcon, Curtis, Brusa, MES-DEA, or Azure/Solectria.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" an "etpost" addresses will not
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =




------------------------------

Message: 16
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:46:07 -0500
From: "Douglas A. Stansfield" <Doug@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Alternator instead of DC to DC converter?
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>,
	 <ev-bounces@...>
Message-ID: <008601ca6331$8560a050$9021e0f0$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Thanks Dave,

I am going to try the Alternator approach.  My motor has the tail shaft and
I have room next to it free right now and I don't mind doing a little
fabricating. Seems like it would work. That is a much cheaper way to go I
think.   My car now has plenty of power going for it.  I love the
acceleration and speed I can get this thing going.  Batteries right now suck
but I am looking forward to some new batteries at some point.

Sincerely;

Doug Stansfield
www.EVAlbum.com/1973


-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
Of EVDL Administrator
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 7:39 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Alternator instead of DC to DC converter?

It's kind of like having a multiple speed transmission in a conversion -
it's less efficient (the alternator is worse in this regard than that trans
for sure), and heavier (it's probably better than the trans on this).  That
said, I doubt that the efficiency hit would be of great significance for
your range.

An alternator also requires a tailshaft on the motor; not all of them have
one.  It takes up more room under the hood, has MUCH less flexibility in
mounting, and requires a belt which takes a little bit of maintenance.

IMO bolting a DC:DC under the hood is much easier than making a bracket for
an alternator.  Saving that time and effort is worth a lot to me, but might
not be to you.

But most likely an alternator came free with your glider, so if your motor
has a tailshaft it's one solution.

One final thought.  No offense to anyone, but IMO Kelly might be considered
a second- or third-tier brand.  You don't always get what you pay for, but
you very seldom get what you don't pay for!  So you might also think about
anteing up a little (or a lot) more cash and trying a first-tier brand DC:DC

such as Sevcon, Curtis, Brusa, MES-DEA, or Azure/Solectria.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" an "etpost" addresses will not
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


_______________________________________________
General support: http://evdl.org/help/
Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
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------------------------------

Message: 17
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:46:41 -0500
From: "EVDL Administrator" <evpost@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Alternator instead of DC to DC converter?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4AFB14A1.13715.A21BDB@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

On 11 Nov 2009 at 19:08, Douglas A. Stansfield wrote:

> If the accessory battery is
> starting to go dead, then even at an intersection at night I could always take
> the car out of gear at the intersection and spin the motor in order to help
> keep the accessory battery charging.

Yikes!  Don't do this if you have a series motor!  It's much too easy to
overspeed the motor and destroy it.  It can happen in a fraction of a second
because series motors tend to take off with a zoom when lightly loaded.

If you have to buy the alternator brand new, I see less benefit to using
one.

I'd also be a little careful of J C Whitney's stuff.  They may be different
now, but back when I used to buy from them 25 or more years ago, they sent
me some of the most gawdawful crummy no-name junk I'd ever seen. If you
really want to go with an alternator, I'd suggest visiting a boneyard ...
er, I mean auto recycler.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" an "etpost" addresses will not
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =




------------------------------

Message: 18
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:39:36 -0500
From: "Douglas A. Stansfield" <Doug@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Alternator instead of DC to DC converter?
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>,
	 <ev-bounces@...>
Message-ID: <008501ca6330$9cb10f70$d6132e50$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dear Roland,

I will be installing the Alternator I think.  Getting tired of having to
keep worrying about the DC/DC converter working....

Otherwise, I was thinking of putting another accessory battery in parallel
while I wait for the new Alternator.


Sincerely;

Douglas A. Stansfield
President
www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
973-875-6276 (office)
973-670-9208 (cell)
973-440-1619 (fax)

WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS




-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
Of Roland Wiench
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 7:41 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List; ev-bounces@...
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Alternator instead of DC to DC converter?

Using a alternator works too.  I been using a very large one which is use to

put three heater loads on the motor while I go down very steep hills.  While

I go up hill, a micro switch opens a relay that opens the R-circuit to the
alternator or the 12 volt power to the alternator and then the DC-DC
converters kick in.

Here in Montana, I live in area where the hills are like a roller coaster.
Only up or down. This alternator acts just like REGEN braking.  In the
summer, I may want to let it go a speed.  One section I was able to coast
over 5 miles going up and down hills.

Don't want to do that in the winter time. One time I was going down a long
icy hill and did not dare hit the brakes.  It got up to 85 mph on that run
without hitting any cars.

Roland


----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas A. Stansfield" <Doug@...>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>;
<ev-bounces@...>
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 3:40 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Alternator instead of DC to DC converter?


> Dear EV enthusiasts,
>
>
>
> I have put two Kelly DC to DC converters in my EV and the second one has
> now
> stopped charging my accessories battery and I am considering just
> installing
> this low cost Alternator off the motor with a pulley instead.    Anybody
> have any reason to not do this and try again with a different DC/DC
> converter?  I can drive around in the mean time with a fully charged Deep
> Cycle but that approach spooks me at night as I have had the Accessory
> battery die at night before and don't like that feeling at all.  I live in
> the country and there are NO street lights to start trying to figure out
> the
> issue.
>
>
>
> Since then, I have installed a Volt meter gauge strictly for the Accessory
> battery.  Just in case it starts to look like it is going to go down when
> the brake pedal is depressed, I know I don't have much time left which
> happened tonight and thus figured out the DC/DC converter is toast again.
>
>
>
> As always, appreciate the input ahead of time.
>
>
>
> Doug Stansfield
>
> www.EVAlbum.com/1973
>
>
>
>
>
> -------------- next part --------------
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> URL:
>
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> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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>
>

_______________________________________________
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------------------------------

Message: 19
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 17:49:33 -0700
From: Bill Dennis <wjdennis@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Pre-charge Addition
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4AFB5B9D.9080009@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Morgan LaMoore wrote:
>> When the precharge relay is off, the auxiliary relay/opto is off. When
>> the precharge relay is turned on, full voltage is applied to the
>> circuit, turning on the auxiliary relay. When the pack is about done
>> precharging, the auxiliary relay coil current is too low and it turns
>> off.
>>
Yes, that's exactly what I want it to function.
>> If you just power your switch through the key switch then through your
>> auxiliary "precharge detect" relay, you'll probably get a brief pulse
>> after you turn on the key but before the precharge starts. Depending
>> on the circuit you're powering, this may or may not be a problem.
>>
Sorry, I didn't follow what you're saying here.  What's the pulse you
mention?

Thanks.

Bill



------------------------------

Message: 20
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:54:54 -0500
From: "Douglas A. Stansfield" <Doug@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Alternator instead of DC to DC converter?
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>,
	 <ev-bounces@...>
Message-ID: <008a01ca6332$bff6fd30$3fe4f790$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dave,

I totally understand the over spinning issue and would not "rev" the thing
out of control.  It was just a last minute desperate idea to help keep the
battery up but I really don't think with the alternator spinning while
driving should keep the accessory battery going for much longer than it does
now because while driving it is suppose to put out 200 amps.  The Whitney
Alternator is a Bosch brand.  I don't think that is a bad brand.  Am I
missing something.  There are cheaper brands out there but I thought Bosch
was a really good brand.

Have you had a bad experience with Bosch?


Doug



-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
Of EVDL Administrator
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 7:47 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Alternator instead of DC to DC converter?

On 11 Nov 2009 at 19:08, Douglas A. Stansfield wrote:

> If the accessory battery is
> starting to go dead, then even at an intersection at night I could always
take
> the car out of gear at the intersection and spin the motor in order to
help
> keep the accessory battery charging.

Yikes!  Don't do this if you have a series motor!  It's much too easy to
overspeed the motor and destroy it.  It can happen in a fraction of a second

because series motors tend to take off with a zoom when lightly loaded.

If you have to buy the alternator brand new, I see less benefit to using
one.

I'd also be a little careful of J C Whitney's stuff.  They may be different
now, but back when I used to buy from them 25 or more years ago, they sent
me some of the most gawdawful crummy no-name junk I'd ever seen. If you
really want to go with an alternator, I'd suggest visiting a boneyard ...
er, I mean auto recycler.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" an "etpost" addresses will not
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


_______________________________________________
General support: http://evdl.org/help/
Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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------------------------------

Message: 21
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 20:11:17 -0500
From: "Douglas A. Stansfield" <Doug@...>
Subject: [EVDL] Nice Conversion For Sale if anyone is interested.....
To: <NEEAA@yahoogroups.com>,
	 <NJElectricAutoAssociation@yahoogroups.com>, "'Electric Vehicle
	 Discussion List'" <ev@...>, <ev-bounces@...>
Message-ID: <008b01ca6335$0a066c10$1e134430$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BV-FKEz8c4



Ford Ranger Conversion.



Guy is not online but needs to sell his vehicle because his commute is now 70
miles each way.  I doubt his mileage claims but all in all a nice looking
conversion.  His phone number is at the end of the video.



Doug

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------------------------------

Message: 22
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:23:23 -0600
From: Morgan LaMoore <morganl@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Pre-charge Addition
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <4230c7190911111723pcbd8539i9f6ed6bf9b332f6d@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 6:49 PM, Bill Dennis <wjdennis@...> wrote:
> ...
> Sorry, I didn't follow what you're saying here. ?What's the pulse you
> mention?

It would really help if you told us what circuit you were going to
control with this; I don't have any context to go by, and I don't want
to just confuse things further.

-Morgan LaMoore



------------------------------

Message: 23
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 18:05:17 -0800
From: "Roland Wiench" <ev_7@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Alternator instead of DC to DC converter?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>,
	 <ev-bounces@...>
Message-ID: <BLU144-DS2E9B131AAE6D096009C5CBEA90@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"




----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas A. Stansfield" <Doug@...>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>;
<ev-bounces@...>
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 4:39 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Alternator instead of DC to DC converter?


> Dear Roland,
>
> I will be installing the Alternator I think.  Getting tired of having to
> keep worrying about the DC/DC converter working....
>
> Otherwise, I was thinking of putting another accessory battery in parallel
> while I wait for the new Alternator.
>
>
> Sincerely;
>
> Douglas A. Stansfield
> President
> www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
> 973-875-6276 (office)
> 973-670-9208 (cell)
> 973-440-1619 (fax)
>
> WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
> And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS
>
>
You can actually bolt a aluminum plate to the front face of the motor which
can hold not only the alternator, but a belt driven vacuum pump, power
steering and A/C.  Most motors will have four bolt holes on the front face.
One of the Net Gain motors has this set up.

With this amount of load of the motor, I can idle either a GE 11 or a Warp 9
or Warp 11 motor by switching in another 5k ohm pot that is set for about
500 rpm. This second pot becomes handy when servicing the A/C system with
out a stick pushing on the accelerator.

I find if I have to do a lot of short stops and go, I use less energy than
having to start the motor up from 0 rpm.  Surges to 200 amps from idle
instead to 400 amps from 0 rpm.

Another method I use some times to keep the alternator up to speed, if
before I come to a stop, I slip the transmission into neutral and the motor
and large flywheel will continue to spin up to thirty seconds.  My battery
voltmeter still shows above 13.5 volts at the end of this spinning.

Now if you have to squeeze every bit of energy out of you main battery to
get your range, loading the motor with accessory drives, you may not make
it.   Me, I do not discharge my batteries below 80% SOC.  Most of the time,
I am above 90% SOC even driving all these accessories.

Roland



------------------------------

Message: 24
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 18:56:59 -0700
From: Bill Dennis <wjdennis@...>
Subject: [EVDL] Lee, You're Full of It--Inspiration, That Is (WAS:
	 Pre-charge Addition)
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4AFB6B6B.8080807@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Morgan LaMoore wrote:

>It would really help if you told us what circuit you were going to
>control with this


Okay, I was hoping to get this working first because it's kind of
indulgent and silly.  But last week, Lee mentioned playing the Jetson's
theme with a motor.  That got me thinking, wouldn't it be fun if my car
played something when it was pre-charging instead of just flashing a
light--make non-EVers smile when I gave them a ride.

So I went to the Hallmark store and bought one of those greeting cards
where you record your own message.  I made an audio file that starts
with the Jetson's doorbell (you know, "Meet George Jetson!"), followed
by the descending sound of the Jetson's car.  Somewhere in the middle of
that descending car sound, pre-charge should finish and cut off the
recording.  If not, and the pre-charge takes over 8 seconds, then the
end of the message says, "Rut-Roh!").  Here's the .wav file:

http://www.users.qwest.net/~denniswilliamsha/JetsonPrechargeEdited3.wav

The card's COB runs on three 1.5V button cells.  There's just a simple
spring-loaded switch that turns the sound on and off.  So I either want
to replace that switch with a relay, in which case the circuit will be
isolated from the traction pack.  Or optionally, remove the button cells
and replace them with a 5.1V zener, in which case the circuit wouldn't
be isolated from the pack.

Like I said, silly, but it's keeping me entertained working on it.

Bill


> On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 6:49 PM, Bill Dennis <wjdennis@...> wrote:
>
>> ...
>> Sorry, I didn't follow what you're saying here.  What's the pulse you
>> mention?
>>
>
> ; I don't have any context to go by, and I don't want
> to just confuse things further.
>
> -Morgan LaMoore
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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>
>
>
>



------------------------------

Message: 25
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 18:05:06 -0800 (PST)
From: Collin Kidder <collink@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC Battery Charger
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <1257991506480-607107.post@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


(hopefully this threads right. I'm posting from the forum interface and it
didn't have my thread in it for some reason...)

Thanks for the suggestions. I thought about going that way. Maybe I still
will use a dedicated 12V charger off of the AC. A potential problem is that
this car is dual 110/220 on the charger so I cannot just hook up a 110
charger unless it auto adjusts for 220V. However, I don't think 12V chargers
normally do that.

Instead, I still kind of want to do what I originally thought of. Here is a
schematic I quick drew up. Please warn me if it wouldn't work for some
reason.

http://n4.nabble.com/file/n607107/Batt_scheme.png
--
View this message in context:
http://n4.nabble.com/Re-DC-Battery-Charger-tp607107p607107.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.



------------------------------

Message: 26
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 20:52:30 -0600
From: Morgan LaMoore <morganl@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lee, You're Full of It--Inspiration, That Is (WAS:
	 Pre-charge Addition)
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <4230c7190911111852o5589cb3cr92d8bea1fc339b8d@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 7:56 PM, Bill Dennis <wjdennis@...> wrote:
> ...
> Like I said, silly, but it's keeping me entertained working on it.
>
> Bill

OK, that makes sense. An indicator of when precharge is done is a
useful thing, even if it sounds silly.

The "pulse" I was talking about won't apply to you then.

I was thinking maybe you were trying to, for example, automatically
close the main contactor when precharge was done. To do that, you
would need a signal that was off when the car was off or precharging
and turned on when precharge completed. The easiest way to do that is
to use a normally closed relay in the precharge circuit you drew and
control the main contactor by the keyswitch in series with that
normally closed relay. However, that method could create a pulse when
you first turn on the key that could turn on the main relay early,
skipping precharge, depending on how fast the various relays involved
were.

-Morgan LaMoore



------------------------------

Message: 27
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 22:36:47 -0500
From: Gary Patterson <gpatterson53@...>
Subject: [EVDL] come on... someone must have seen cloudy battery fluid
To: <ev@...>
Message-ID: <BLU137-W18B26E5DA7139325DE8483DAA90@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"




> From: gpatterson53@...
> To: ev@...
> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 20:49:08 -0500
> Subject: [EVDL] battery equalization..... brown sediment
>
>
> I equalized my ev pack for the first time today. The cells bubbled gently and
nothing got too warm. Then the electrolyte got cloudy with a light brown
sediment. Have I ruined my batteries??
>
>
>
> Gary
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Windows 7: Unclutter your desktop.
>
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_WIN_evergreen:112009
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------------------------------

Message: 28
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:40:11 -0800
From: "joe" <joe@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC battery charger
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <BBF64432662445B2AA24B64217616974@Sales>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original

Bryan at Belktronix will build you one for any voltage - belktronix.com .

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: joe@...


----- Original Message -----
From: "Collin Kidder" <collink@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 1:04 PM
Subject: [EVDL] DC battery charger


> I've got a car with lithium ion batteries in a 370V pack. I've got a DC
> converter to go from that to 13.5V for the normal car stuff. I'd like to
> also put a 12V battery in as well to allow for better surge support,
> running acc while the car is off, etc. My DC/DC converter is not meant
> to be used as a battery charger. If I never let the 12V battery get very
> low I could possibly cheat and just send 13.5V to the battery and let it
> charge. But if the battery ever gets low it would overload the DC
> converter. So, is there a good option (and hopefully cheap) option to
> add a DC powered battery charger? (12V output. Amp output doesn't need
> to be very high)
>
> Part of the trouble is that 370V is quite high. Not very many DC
> converters or 12V battery chargers support that sort of input.
>
> I have thought about using diodes and a 6ohm power resistor to make a
> sort of makeshift 2A charger and source isolation circuit. It'd be crude
> but I think it's workable with only 2 power diodes and one power
> resistor. Is there any reason such a simple solution to the problem
> would be undesirable? I could draw something up real quick in a
> schematic editor if it would help to visualize what I'm thinking of
> doing here.
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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------------------------------

Message: 29
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 22:42:41 -0600
From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lee, You're Full of It--Inspiration, That Is (WAS:
	 Pre-charge Addition)
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4AFB9241.8010006@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Bill Dennis wrote:
> Okay... Lee mentioned playing the Jetson's theme with a motor.
> So I went to the Hallmark store and bought one of those greeting cards
> where you record your own message.  I made an audio file that starts
> with the Jetson's doorbell (you know, "Meet George Jetson!"), followed
> by the descending sound of the Jetson's car.  Somewhere in the middle of
> that descending car sound, pre-charge should finish and cut off the
> recording.  If not, and the pre-charge takes over 8 seconds, then the
> end of the message says, "Rut-Roh!").  Here's the .wav file:
> http://www.users.qwest.net/~denniswilliamsha/JetsonPrechargeEdited3.wav

I like it! :-) You just may have inspired me to do it as well.

> The card's COB runs on three 1.5V button cells.  There's just a simple
> spring-loaded switch that turns the sound on and off.  So I either want
> to replace that switch with a relay, in which case the circuit will be
> isolated from the traction pack.  Or optionally, remove the button cells
> and replace them with a 5.1V zener, in which case the circuit wouldn't
> be isolated from the pack.

How about this: Get a little reed switch, and use it to replace the
switch in the greeting card. A typical reed switch turns on at something
like 10 AT (10 ampere-turns). If your precharge resistor draws (say) 1
amp, then you just need to make a 10-turn coil around the reed switch,
and it will close when the precharge resistor is drawing current. Adjust
the number of turns to control when the switch turns off.

This gives you an isolated switch output with only one simple cheap part.

--
Lee A. Hart  | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N  | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen



------------------------------

Message: 30
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 23:15:52 -0600
From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC Battery Charger
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4AFB9A08.4010006@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Collin Kidder wrote:
> (hopefully this threads right. I'm posting from the forum interface and it
> didn't have my thread in it for some reason...)
>
> Thanks for the suggestions. I thought about going that way. Maybe I still
> will use a dedicated 12V charger off of the AC. A potential problem is that
> this car is dual 110/220 on the charger so I cannot just hook up a 110
> charger unless it auto adjusts for 220V. However, I don't think 12V chargers
> normally do that.
>
> Instead, I still kind of want to do what I originally thought of. Here is a
> schematic I quick drew up. Please warn me if it wouldn't work for some
> reason.
>
> http://n4.nabble.com/file/n607107/Batt_scheme.png

This will work, though it has some limitations.

   - Resistor R1 limits the current that the DC/DC can source, both for
     the battery and for the car's 12v system.

   - R1 and D1 cause the battery voltage to be poorly regulated even if
     the DC/DC output is well regulated.

   - You have two diodes carrying high currents. They'll get hot, and
     so will need heatsinking. They also cause two forward voltage drops,
     so you need (say) 15v from the DC/DC to get 14v on your 12v system.

Instead, I think I would use one diode and one power resistor. Wire the
DC/DC straight to your 12v accessory loads. Thus, they will get a
constant voltage (set by the DC/DC).

Wire the diode and resistor from the DC/DC output to the battery. Orient
the diode so when the DC/DC voltage is higher than the battery, the
resistor carries all the current. Pick the resistance to limit the peak
charging current that the DC/DC can supply. When the battery is fully
charged, it will draw essentially no current and so be "floating" at the
DC/DC's output voltage.

The diode has its anode to battery+, cathode to the DC/DC output and the
rest of the 12v system. If something draws more current than the DC/DC
can deliver, its output should go into current limit and its output
voltage falls. The battery now picks up the peak load via this diode.
The diode only carries current briefly during peaks, so the heatsink can
be much smaller.

--
Lee A. Hart  | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N  | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen



------------------------------

Message: 31
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 23:25:36 -0700
From: "Mike Nickerson" <mike@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Going halvsies
To: <spkorb@...>, "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'"
	 <ev@...>
Message-ID: <04a901ca6360$f4caebb0$de60c310$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi Sean,

I'm just curious:  If you are thinking of going with two strings of TS 100AH
batteries, why not just go with a single string of 200AH batteries?  It
seems like it would be a lot easier to manage a single serial string, same
price for the cells, and cheaper on battery management since you would only
need 1/2 the cell management hardware.

Also, you would know that a 200A draw is only 1C on the cells and wouldn't
always be wondering whether 1 string is providing more current (and
therefore taking more of the load) than the other.

Of course, there could be physical size reasons this wouldn't work, but it
seems a lot simpler.  Obviously, with this approach, you couldn't get 1/2
the cells now and 1/2 later.  I doubt your truck will run very well on 60
volts!

I like the way the cells are being priced by the Ah.  That makes these kinds
of design tradeoffs easier, since you aren't paying a price penalty to move
to larger or smaller cells.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
Of Sean Korb
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 7:56 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] Going halvsies

Hi listers,

I found the disk brake upgrade for my Metropolitan and an S-10 rear
axle with 4:11 gearing.  I was originally going to load it up
with 10 12v lead acid batteries but the Lithium Ion batteries
have so much momentum and buzz and.... well, success behind them
that I thought 2 strings of TS 100AH batteries would get me the
50 mile round trip commute I was targeting.  That would be 34
batteries in series and another 34 in parallel.  That's pretty
expensive compared to 10 T-1275 batteries.

If I started with 34 batteries for a single string, I thought I
could get 15 or 20 miles out of that with 2/3 the investment
and a chance to learn the technology, but would I toast the
batteries with the current I would draw?  When this motor
and controller was in a S-10 pickup it would occasionally draw
over 200A. It doesn't seem like a lot to draw from lead cells
but the TS batteries seem a little fragile.

thanks,
sean

--
Sean Korb spkorb@... http://www.spkorb.org
'65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera #1382
"The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
"Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso

_______________________________________________
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Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
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------------------------------

_______________________________________________
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For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



End of EV Digest, Vol 28, Issue 16
**********************************

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (1)
#37631 From: ev-request@...
Date: Thu Nov 12, 2009 8:00 pm
Subject: EV Digest, Vol 28, Issue 17 		ev-request@...
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Today's Topics:

    1. Re: Alternator instead of DC to DC converter? (Bob Rice)
    2. Re: come on... someone must have seen cloudy battery fluid
       (EVDL Administrator)
    3. Fw: Two Passenger EV Update (Bob Rice)
    4. Re: DC Battery Charger (Collin Kidder)
    5. Re: EV Conversion Battery Tech Seminar (Pestka, Dennis J)
    6. Re: Performance vs temperature..........it SUCKS! (Jeff Shanab)
    7. Re: Alternator instead of DC to DC converter? (Rick Beebe)
    8. Re: Performance vs temperature..........it SUCKS! (Bob Rice)
    9. Re: Alternator instead of DC to DC converter? (Hazem Sedra)
   10. Re: Alternator instead of DC to DC converter?
       (Douglas A. Stansfield)
   11. Re: Fw: Two Passenger EV Update (Dave Hymers)
   12. EFP musings, etc WAS Great little VIDEO of the Fiat e500 EV
       ... AT SPEEDatMONZA (Bob Rice)
   13. Re: Alternator instead of DC to DC converter? (Bob Rice)
   14. EVDL Business: watch the email address! (EVDL Administrator)
   15. Re: DC battery charger (Adrian DeLeon)
   16. Re: DC Battery Charger (Dennis Miles)
   17. Re: DC battery charger (Bill Dennis)
   18. OBS Jr dragster at Orlando Speedworld this Sunday
       (lawlessind@...)
   19. Re: OBS Jr dragster at Orlando Speedworld this Sunday
       (Douglas A. Stansfield)
   20. Re: not enough cash (m gol)
   21. Re: OBS Jr dragster at Orlando Speedworld this Sunday
       (Douglas A. Stansfield)
   22. Re: EVDL Business: watch the email address! (EVDL Administrator)
   23. Re: DC Battery Charger (Collin Kidder)
   24. Re: Lee, You're Full of It--Inspiration, That Is (WAS:
       Pre-charge Addition) (Bill Dennis)
   25. Re: Lee, You're Full of It--Inspiration, That Is (WAS:
       Pre-charge Addition) (Lee Hart)
   26. Brammo E-motor cycle from $11,000 down to $7200. (Steven Lough)
   27. Re: Brammo! (cowtown@...)
   28. Re: Brammo E-motor cycle from $11,000 down to $7200. (Martin K)
   29. Heat/AC caveat: 2000-2004 Ford Focus (public service
       announcement :) (Josh Wyatt)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 01:40:16 -0500
From: "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Alternator instead of DC to DC converter?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <93171C7B988E49A7B70981A9951F9B9B@adminwlzisp2uc>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original

    Hi Doug;

    Break down, go to Wal*Mart or a cheepo parts place and pop 20 bux and buy
a garden tracter battery!They are small, VERY common, hence the cheap price!
A Alternater belt driven off the front shaft of the motor works just FINE. I
sense Wayne at EV Blue nodding and saying ;"I TOLD ya so!" He has done over
ONE HUNDRED conversions! Sez it's the cheap way out. Do ya have the alt.
that the car was born with? HE always did! It's used to it, and it will be
happy to have it back? Or as David sez, you might wanna pop for a GOOD ,
pricy, DC to dc, converter> I must say, my Sevcon one has been the most
trouble free thing on the car! When I was running 90 volts it didn't care,
went back up to 120 volts, it never broke a sweat.I JUST hooked up an Iota
in Mike O's S-10, seems to be doing fine, as it CAME with an AC plug I just
plugged it in, and forgot about it, for tonite. I charged the 144 volt pack
today, cooked it lightly with the
Monster Charge" Variac setup, got up to about 180 volts!Of COURSE I took the
truk for a spin, it cruises along in 3rd at about 75-80 amps @ 40-45mph, of
course it's hard to give constant amp draw figures as WHERE the hell do ya
find ANY lenghty, FLAT road in CT??As I had NO tags, insurance, etc I stayed
pretty darn close to home. I WANTED to crank her on, and see what she'd do,
but not going for any speed stuff 'til legal!Oh the Vacuum brakes sure would
be nice, too, for less stopping distance than a loaded Acela Express! Gently
cycling the new badd-eries, go a few miles, charge 'er up again, do MORE
miles and charge her again. Yur batteries will thank you that you broke them
in GENTLY! They will pay you back with loooong range and life.Well, it's
relative, sigh. I thought 20 k was a good lifespan for a pack of
floodies?But when they go, the animate perversity of in- animite objects;
one goes, and the OTHERS quickly follow. "IF he goes, I'm outta here,
too!"Believe me I tried replacing, onesies-twosies, but they, the rest of
the pack is on to you ,pretty quick!Good Union??

     My suggestion to youse newbees; don't chunk a new pack in yur pride and
joy, and go blasting off with a "look at me , look at me , now! (From 'Cat
in the Hat!") How FAST it will go and how far? Don't be tempted. Break them
in lightly. Go out 3-4 miles, come home an' charge, do it again when you
have a few more minutes, short runs, extend yur joy rides as your cyclage
builds up, stay outta the go(was gunna say GAS) pedal, go lightly! A little
foreplay, if ya will?Build up 50-100 miles of gentle driving, before going
to the races<g>/ Oh we don't do that here, THAT'S  over on the NEDRA Yahell
group site<g>!I would guess a 144 volt S-10 could manage 70-80 full bore?
EVentually, like a Conrail, or Union Pathetic, freight train?

     But, to sorta wander back to the point, I DO, occasuionally? The decent
Acc. Battery WILL get ya home when your charging system shits out! A safety
thing as you can run your flashers, etc, AND pull in yur line switch! MAYBE
ya should have a set of clip leads jumpers, say#10 wire, to tap the main ,
traction pack IF ya got anything left THERE? So you can get home, dignity
intact. The garden tracter badd-eries go bad in about a year, I've found.
Last one died, I SMELLED the SMELL of hydrogen, THAT smell we ALL know and
love so well! Ran down to my local battery place and got another GT
batterey. We're still honeymooning!Forgot about it, already!

     YMMV?

      Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas A. Stansfield" <Doug@...>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>;
<ev-bounces@...>
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 6:40 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Alternator instead of DC to DC converter?


> Dear EV enthusiasts,
>
       MORE stuff below.
>
> I have put two Kelly DC to DC converters in my EV and the second one has
> now
> stopped charging my accessories battery and I am considering just
> installing
> this low cost Alternator off the motor with a pulley instead.    Anybody
> have any reason to not do this and try again with a different DC/DC
> converter?  I can drive around in the mean time with a fully charged Deep
> Cycle but that approach spooks me at night as I have had the Accessory
> battery die at night before and don't like that feeling at all.  I live in
> the country and there are NO street lights to start trying to figure out
> the
> issue.
>
       That's the TROUBLE with DC to dc's. They are silent, don't say
anything,good or bad, you don't know it has shit the bed, UNTIL a dark
night!I guess IF they hummed, whirred, beeped or SOMETHIN to let you know
they are STILL on the job? Of course a VOLT meter will clue you in.
>
> Since then, I have installed a Volt meter gauge strictly for the Accessory
> battery.  Just in case it starts to look like it is going to go down when
> the brake pedal is depressed, I know I don't have much time left which
> happened tonight and thus figured out the DC/DC converter is toast again.
>
>
>
> As always, appreciate the input ahead of time.
>
> This is WHY were here!
>
> Doug Stansfield
>
> www.EVAlbum.com/1973
>
>
>
>
>
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> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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>



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 01:54:13 -0500
From: "EVDL Administrator" <evpost@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] come on... someone must have seen cloudy battery
	 fluid
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4AFB6AC5.22941.1F2A727@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Roland responded to your original post.  I take it you missed it.

http://evdl.org/archive/#nabble-td585650%7Ca585650

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" an "etpost" addresses will not
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 02:06:42 -0500
From: "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
Subject: [EVDL] Fw: Two Passenger EV Update
To: <ev@...>
Message-ID: <CC3A4051A1B842D195642AB1F60642F6@adminwlzisp2uc>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Myers Motors  Hi EVerybody;

    Anybody ELSE see this one, before? Jerry Dycus? Check it out! They have
scenbe yur stuff! A freedom EV? A bit pricy, but I like thir "Rebate" system, IF
they sell a shitload of them?I THINK it would do better than 60 miles on
Lithium? I THINK Jerry was gunna do that well on cheepo Golf Cart
batteries?Anybody over in Tallmadge Ohio? well David R. yur pretty close? Chek
it out?Or anybody ELSE in the NOEAA group?

     Seeya

     Bob.
----- Original Message -----
From: Myers Motors
To: bobrice@...
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 2:53 PM
Subject: Two Passenger EV Update


       Myers Motors - Newsletter
       Great news! You can reserve your place in our production plans for the new
Myers Motors 2-passenger electric vehicle coming out next year. See our website
for more details: http://www.myersmotors.com/preorder.html.

       Our records show that you requested e-mail updates of our progress in
bringing electric vehicles into everyday life. However, if we are in error or
you have changed your mind, please let us know.




       Click here to unsubscribe
       Myers Motors
       Click here to visit our site

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Message: 4
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 08:03:37 -0500
From: Collin Kidder <collink@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC Battery Charger
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <4AFC07A9.1080208@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Oops! Yes, I had planned to directly hook up the DC/DC converter to load
but that was not shown in the schematic I posted. Adding that
essentially creates the situation you outlined and which I had actually
hoped to create. Thanks.

On 11/12/2009 12:15 AM, Lee Hart wrote:
>
> This will work, though it has some limitations.
>
>    - Resistor R1 limits the current that the DC/DC can source, both for
>      the battery and for the car's 12v system.
>
>    - R1 and D1 cause the battery voltage to be poorly regulated even if
>      the DC/DC output is well regulated.
>
>    - You have two diodes carrying high currents. They'll get hot, and
>      so will need heatsinking. They also cause two forward voltage drops,
>      so you need (say) 15v from the DC/DC to get 14v on your 12v system.
>
> Instead, I think I would use one diode and one power resistor. Wire the
> DC/DC straight to your 12v accessory loads. Thus, they will get a
> constant voltage (set by the DC/DC).
>
> Wire the diode and resistor from the DC/DC output to the battery. Orient
> the diode so when the DC/DC voltage is higher than the battery, the
> resistor carries all the current. Pick the resistance to limit the peak
> charging current that the DC/DC can supply. When the battery is fully
> charged, it will draw essentially no current and so be "floating" at the
> DC/DC's output voltage.
>
> The diode has its anode to battery+, cathode to the DC/DC output and the
> rest of the 12v system. If something draws more current than the DC/DC
> can deliver, its output should go into current limit and its output
> voltage falls. The battery now picks up the peak load via this diode.
> The diode only carries current briefly during peaks, so the heatsink can
> be much smaller.
>
>



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 07:20:42 -0600
From: "Pestka, Dennis J" <Dennis.Pestka@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Conversion Battery Tech Seminar
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <3101A09B528B004F9B51A640B7A72F0806B64A9D@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Any chance that you could record / tape this for all of us that won't be
able to attend ?

Thanks;
Dennis
Elsberry, MO
http://www.evalbum.com/1366


-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Brown [mailto:mike@...]
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 10:57 AM
To: EV Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] EV Conversion Battery Tech Seminar

Date: Jan. 30, 2010
Electric Vehicle Conversion Battery Tech Seminar Hosted by Electro
Automotive
Location: University Inn & Conference Center, 611 Ocean St., Santa Cruz,
CA

A one-day seminar featuring three expert presenters on the topics of
lead acid and lithium batteries for use in home electric vehicle
conversions, as well as battery containment in the vehicle.  Presenters
include Jim Ramos of American Battery Company, with 36 years of
experience in manufacturing and sales of lead acid batteries for
converted electric vehicles; Dr. Andrew Burke of the Institute of
Transportation Studies at UC Davis, with 35 years of experience in
testing and research in vehicle traction batteries, especially lithium;
and Michael Brown, author of Convert It, with 30 years of experience in
design and installation of electric car conversions.

Space is limited.  Pre-paid registration of $100 is required.

Contact:  shari@...,
http://www.electroauto.com/batteryseminar.shtml , 831-429-1989


Mike Brown
Electro Automotive, POB 1113, Felton, CA  95018-1113 Phone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com  email mike@...
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979






------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 06:02:44 -0800
From: Jeff Shanab <jshanab@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Performance vs temperature..........it SUCKS!
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <4AFC1584.1000407@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I can't remember what comedian pointed out that we Americans are a
strange lot.\

"We will go to war over $4/gallon of gas but go thru the drive-thru at
starbucks and happily pay > $30/gal for coffee."
      or something to that effect.


> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Nelson" <gizmoev@...>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 1:50 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Performance vs temperature..........it SUCKS!
>
>
>>> few hundred REAL English MILES, not wimpy K's!?
>>
>> I thought MILES were for those wimps who didn't like to count as high ;)
>   Like buying GAS in Litres, NOBODY wants to count zillions of itty
> bitty liters! Soda? OK .sorta used to 2 liter Cokes, etc.
> --
> David D. Nelson
> http://evalbum.com/1328
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 09:08:01 -0500
From: Rick Beebe <rick@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Alternator instead of DC to DC converter?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4AFC16C1.2030807@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Douglas A. Stansfield wrote:
> Thanks Dave,
>
> I am going to try the Alternator approach.  My motor has the tail shaft and
> I have room next to it free right now and I don't mind doing a little
> fabricating. Seems like it would work. That is a much cheaper way to go I
> think.   My car now has plenty of power going for it.  I love the
> acceleration and speed I can get this thing going.  Batteries right now suck
> but I am looking forward to some new batteries at some point.

EV-Propulsion sells a pre-built bracket for this.

http://www.ev-propulsion.com/kits.html (scroll down)

--Rick



------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 09:23:08 -0500
From: "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Performance vs temperature..........it SUCKS!
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <7C51940F09904ABB85F1B66315957034@adminwlzisp2uc>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <jshanab@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 9:02 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Performance vs temperature..........it SUCKS!


>I can't remember what comedian pointed out that we Americans are a
> strange lot.\
>
> "We will go to war over $4/gallon of gas but go thru the drive-thru at
> starbucks and happily pay > $30/gal for coffee."
>     or something to that effect.

    Ya didn't mention bottled water. THAT scam! It goes for the same price,
or more, than other soft drinks, etc. Maybe ya MIGHT need to drink it in
Trashcanistan, where tap water IF there is any, wouldn't be clean enough to
prevent disease? But OUR tap water in "developed" countries is good
'enuf??!!On a Gal. basis its MORE thasn gas! JUST now, in Corrupticut they
require a 5 sense a bottle deposit, to help the state budget, AND to clean
up the environment? Howbout our  distilled water jugs, too?WHAT?! Yur NOT
watering your badd-eries with pure distilled water? STILL cheaper than gas
in one gal. jugs!

      Seeya

      Bob
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Nelson" <gizmoev@...>
>> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 1:50 AM
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Performance vs temperature..........it SUCKS!
>>
>>
>>>> few hundred REAL English MILES, not wimpy K's!?
>>>
>>> I thought MILES were for those wimps who didn't like to count as high ;)
>>   Like buying GAS in Litres, NOBODY wants to count zillions of itty
>> bitty liters! Soda? OK .sorta used to 2 liter Cokes, etc.
>> --
>> David D. Nelson
>> http://evalbum.com/1328
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 09:43:17 -0500
From: Hazem Sedra <hazemsedra@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Alternator instead of DC to DC converter?
To: <ev@...>
Message-ID: <BLU127-W210C8C00434D621E8CC733D5A90@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"


Thanks Bob, for your great advise to newbiees concerning the honewmoon period

with new batteries...very helpful advise!



I am usually stuck in the office from 8 to 5 dealing with H1N1, so I look
forward to your morning briefings to help me start the day right.

Thanks

Hazem

> From: bobrice@...
> To: ev@...
> Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 01:40:16 -0500
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Alternator instead of DC to DC converter?
>
> Hi Doug;
>
> Break down, go to Wal*Mart or a cheepo parts place and pop 20 bux and buy
> a garden tracter battery!They are small, VERY common, hence the cheap price!
> A Alternater belt driven off the front shaft of the motor works just FINE. I
> sense Wayne at EV Blue nodding and saying ;"I TOLD ya so!" He has done over
> ONE HUNDRED conversions! Sez it's the cheap way out. Do ya have the alt.
> that the car was born with? HE always did! It's used to it, and it will be
> happy to have it back? Or as David sez, you might wanna pop for a GOOD ,
> pricy, DC to dc, converter> I must say, my Sevcon one has been the most
> trouble free thing on the car! When I was running 90 volts it didn't care,
> went back up to 120 volts, it never broke a sweat.I JUST hooked up an Iota
> in Mike O's S-10, seems to be doing fine, as it CAME with an AC plug I just
> plugged it in, and forgot about it, for tonite. I charged the 144 volt pack
> today, cooked it lightly with the
> Monster Charge" Variac setup, got up to about 180 volts!Of COURSE I took the
> truk for a spin, it cruises along in 3rd at about 75-80 amps @ 40-45mph, of
> course it's hard to give constant amp draw figures as WHERE the hell do ya
> find ANY lenghty, FLAT road in CT??As I had NO tags, insurance, etc I stayed
> pretty darn close to home. I WANTED to crank her on, and see what she'd do,
> but not going for any speed stuff 'til legal!Oh the Vacuum brakes sure would
> be nice, too, for less stopping distance than a loaded Acela Express! Gently
> cycling the new badd-eries, go a few miles, charge 'er up again, do MORE
> miles and charge her again. Yur batteries will thank you that you broke them
> in GENTLY! They will pay you back with loooong range and life.Well, it's
> relative, sigh. I thought 20 k was a good lifespan for a pack of
> floodies?But when they go, the animate perversity of in- animite objects;
> one goes, and the OTHERS quickly follow. "IF he goes, I'm outta here,
> too!"Believe me I tried replacing, onesies-twosies, but they, the rest of
> the pack is on to you ,pretty quick!Good Union??
>
> My suggestion to youse newbees; don't chunk a new pack in yur pride and
> joy, and go blasting off with a "look at me , look at me , now! (From 'Cat
> in the Hat!") How FAST it will go and how far? Don't be tempted. Break them
> in lightly. Go out 3-4 miles, come home an' charge, do it again when you
> have a few more minutes, short runs, extend yur joy rides as your cyclage
> builds up, stay outta the go(was gunna say GAS) pedal, go lightly! A little
> foreplay, if ya will?Build up 50-100 miles of gentle driving, before going
> to the races<g>/ Oh we don't do that here, THAT'S over on the NEDRA Yahell
> group site<g>!I would guess a 144 volt S-10 could manage 70-80 full bore?
> EVentually, like a Conrail, or Union Pathetic, freight train?
>
> But, to sorta wander back to the point, I DO, occasuionally? The decent
> Acc. Battery WILL get ya home when your charging system shits out! A safety
> thing as you can run your flashers, etc, AND pull in yur line switch! MAYBE
> ya should have a set of clip leads jumpers, say#10 wire, to tap the main ,
> traction pack IF ya got anything left THERE? So you can get home, dignity
> intact. The garden tracter badd-eries go bad in about a year, I've found.
> Last one died, I SMELLED the SMELL of hydrogen, THAT smell we ALL know and
> love so well! Ran down to my local battery place and got another GT
> batterey. We're still honeymooning!Forgot about it, already!
>
> YMMV?
>
> Bob
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Douglas A. Stansfield" <Doug@...>
> To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>;
> <ev-bounces@...>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 6:40 PM
> Subject: [EVDL] Alternator instead of DC to DC converter?
>
>
> > Dear EV enthusiasts,
> >
> MORE stuff below.
> >
> > I have put two Kelly DC to DC converters in my EV and the second one has
> > now
> > stopped charging my accessories battery and I am considering just
> > installing
> > this low cost Alternator off the motor with a pulley instead. Anybody
> > have any reason to not do this and try again with a different DC/DC
> > converter? I can drive around in the mean time with a fully charged Deep
> > Cycle but that approach spooks me at night as I have had the Accessory
> > battery die at night before and don't like that feeling at all. I live in
> > the country and there are NO street lights to start trying to figure out
> > the
> > issue.
> >
> That's the TROUBLE with DC to dc's. They are silent, don't say
> anything,good or bad, you don't know it has shit the bed, UNTIL a dark
> night!I guess IF they hummed, whirred, beeped or SOMETHIN to let you know
> they are STILL on the job? Of course a VOLT meter will clue you in.
> >
> > Since then, I have installed a Volt meter gauge strictly for the Accessory
> > battery. Just in case it starts to look like it is going to go down when
> > the brake pedal is depressed, I know I don't have much time left which
> > happened tonight and thus figured out the DC/DC converter is toast again.
> >
> >
> >
> > As always, appreciate the input ahead of time.
> >
> > This is WHY were here!
> >
> > Doug Stansfield
> >
> > www.EVAlbum.com/1973
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -------------- next part --------------
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> > General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> > Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> > Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> > Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

_________________________________________________________________
Windows 7: Unclutter your desktop.
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9690331&ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL\
_WIN_evergreen:112009
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Message: 10
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 10:07:52 -0500
From: "Douglas A. Stansfield" <Doug@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Alternator instead of DC to DC converter?
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>,
	 <ev-bounces@...>
Message-ID: <003601ca63a9$e852be00$b8f83a00$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Thanks Rick,

I think I will just fabricate it.  I have an Advanced DC 9 inch motor not a
warp.

It shouldn't be too big a deal to get it set up.

Thanks for the reference point however....

Doug
www.evalbum.com/1973

-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
Of Rick Beebe
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 9:08 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Alternator instead of DC to DC converter?

Douglas A. Stansfield wrote:
> Thanks Dave,
>
> I am going to try the Alternator approach.  My motor has the tail shaft
and
> I have room next to it free right now and I don't mind doing a little
> fabricating. Seems like it would work. That is a much cheaper way to go I
> think.   My car now has plenty of power going for it.  I love the
> acceleration and speed I can get this thing going.  Batteries right now
suck
> but I am looking forward to some new batteries at some point.

EV-Propulsion sells a pre-built bracket for this.

http://www.ev-propulsion.com/kits.html (scroll down)

--Rick

_______________________________________________
General support: http://evdl.org/help/
Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 08:24:26 -0700
From: Dave Hymers <dhymers@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Fw: Two Passenger EV Update
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <ec811c3f0911120724u5b422fb6v794040dff8ea5546@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Wow... I wasn't too keen on the look of the first NMG, but the 2 seater
looks really slick.
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Message: 12
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 10:36:08 -0500
From: "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
Subject: [EVDL] EFP musings, etc WAS Great little VIDEO of the Fiat
	 e500 EV ... AT SPEEDatMONZA
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <D856E0B2BC2F4B689DE9AC822820EE75@adminwlzisp2uc>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original


----- Original Message -----
From: "EVDL Administrator" <evpost@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 5:33 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Great little VIDEO of the Fiat e500 EV ... AT
SPEEDatMONZA


> On 11 Nov 2009 at 9:24, Bob Rice wrote:
>
>> Don't feel bad, STILL waiting for Bob Aronson's Tri-Polar Lead Acid
>> badd-ery! Longer than most Listers have been ALIVE!
>
> Yeah, it's been a while.  I first read about the "tri-polar lead cobalt
> battery" in 1971, when I also read about his EFP Voltair EV with the fuel
> cell range extender that I'd be able to buy "soon."  Heck, I've only been
> waiting for GM to build that electric Chevette since 1978.
>
> I don't know about the value of the cobalt, but I do recall that Aronson
> put
> cell interconnectors in the bottom of the battery, figuring that the heat
> convection resulting (I guess they were undersized) would help destratify
> the electrolyte.  Not a bad idea, though I wonder if sealing them
> sufficiently where they passed between cells wouldn't have been quite a
> task.
    Hi Dave an' EVerybody;

  The Tri-polar setup was a connecter type busbars UNDER the plates, as well
as the traditional ONE on top, not an issue of sealing between the plates. A
pain in the ass to asemble, but they COULD pass fearsome amps! This is my
argument with modern crappy golf cart badd-eries. You blow one up, er, take
it apart, and find the wimpy little round intercell connecters, oh, well
UNDER 1/2"round ones!Well, THEIR market is golf carts designed to operate in
the 75 amp range, Rod Wilde's excepted! EV CARS isn't what they had in mind;
300-400 amp launches 250 amp, 75 mph cruising, etc. One of Bob's 6 volt
"Martian" ones could churn out 300 amps for 27 minutes!I THINK they were the
tall floor sweaper size?Weighed 100 lbs EA! This put the bug in Bob to build
EV's thousands of years ago! Well actually the early 60's, back when I was
serving in Uncle Sams Army, as Viet Nam was heating up.

    Aronson WAS onto something; His "Martian" battery, 6 volter, we called it
that because it was what he used in the Mars2 car. Seems to be alota
celestial stuff here, we have Saturns, thankfully NO Uranus's?Anyhow these
went into his 40 or so Renault conversions; Think 1800 lb car with ONE TON
of batteries, the origional Lead Sled! In that the poor old Renault didn't
just collapse, is a tribute to French Auto Engineering!!Of couse he got
great range!Bob's forte, LONG before Rich Rudman, was FAST charging. On
board the Renault was a I.R. power supply that took 240, 3 faze IN and
cranked out 200-300 AMPS into the battery!!He cooked up a deal with Holiday
Inns to set up carports round back, at the power service drop, using, I
SWEAR, the same connecters Amtrak later adapted for E power between coaches,
to locomotives, AFTER getting away from Steam Heat. Gone was the romantic
wisps of steam around trains in the station in the night, and the lonesome
moan of the steam whistle! SOOO Bob could charge Renault in 45 minutes! His
setup was; Detoilet, AnnArbor, Jackson, Kalamazoo zoo zoo, to quote the
song, South Bend Ind. and Chicago. IF I missed any, my apologies to their
Chamber of Commerses!They were 40-60 miles apart, it was a sorta sport" to
SKIP one to see IF ya could make it to the more distant one!It WAS a long
afternoon driving from Detoilet to Chicago!I mean HOW much coffee can ya
drink or food ya can EAT!??Ya brought a book!

     Yur EFP history minute.

> Bob Aronson is one of the pioneers of the EV world, but I don't know how
> he
> keeps going when (as far as I can tell) except for the Mars Electrics he's
> never actually sold anything but one-off conversions.  (I think Bob
> originally converted Roland's EV.)  Maybe he's independently wealthy and
> can
> afford to keep tinkering.

     Oh THAT he is. Chatted with him a few months ago. He MUST be as old as
Methulous, by now. His kid, Doug, is in cahoots with him, nowadaze.Too bad
he couldn't throw some money at Lee Hart, and have a working prototype?For
somebody who has produced a few MORE cars than, Hell? NOT that many?He has
lived quite nicely?40 YEARS and no cars? Well, he built a few AFTER I left,
these Titanic 7000lb cars, like Roland keeps, somehow, alive. I answered
Bob, Beaumont's swan song for lightweight EV's and we went off the shallow,
er, deep end with the Citi-Car, which, is fun to see has quite a cult
following, like Electracs!"Beau" got it right the SECOND try, with the
Tropica, but ran out of money, too soon? The Feds stimulous money coulda
helped, nowadaze? IF I coulda been the guy to hand it out, rather than
General Murders getting it,sigh!? Some for Beau, some for Lee an' Jerry,
Wayne at EV Bleu,Aptera, Myers Motors. Oh! I could spend like a politition!

> Bob must be gettin' up in years there, like all of us.  Wonder if he'll
> ever

> retire.
     Hmmm? WHICH Bob? I resemble that?? Retire? Like Hell! Never been busier!
How did I find time to fly Amtrak's finest!? You have to have a PURPOSE in
life!!As one of my bumper stickers sez" Protest is the most serious form of
patriotism" I'll go with that. As well as "What World are we leaving our
Grandchildren?Two, and counting, Gees! they are cute!Puts a sorta different
spin on stuff? The EAA meetings , it brings like minded folks into my warped
world<g>?We learn, share, have fun, over good food and drink.Oh yeah, THIS
Sat. at my place, seeya here?

>> IF I can find ANOTHER "Boycott OPEC Use Electric Fuel" sticker ...
>
> If you can't, there are now several operations on the web which will make
> custom stickers for you.  Just upload your artwork.  With many of them you
> can even make a simple sticker right there on the website, with various
> stock backgrounds and text you type in.

     Yeah! I've scene those! Gotta come up with MORE stickers. I like;
"Electric cars, First and Last Cars!" But I think it would go right by MOST
sheeple as they are totally clueless that there were MORE EV's than gassers
in the Pre-Ford, Titanic era?I'm SURE there were city folks thap planned to
pick up their loved ones from the Titanic's pier, when she arrived in NYC,
in their electrics, or you could CAB electrically, over to Penn Station
(still there!) for yur Pennsy E- ride to Philly or DC, but NOT all electric
til 1938!? but Titanic will arrive, BEFORE Crapsler and General Murders
builds EV's!Ford? Well MAYBE?? As usual ,our Oriental friends will eat our
lunch AGAIN, I feel, with EVeryman's electric? Prove me wong, er, Wrong?!

     Seeya

      Bob Rice -Killingworth, CT (where the hell is THAT?) USA.

> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator



------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 10:55:37 -0500
From: "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Alternator instead of DC to DC converter?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <64CB4D75D3E54C37B07BA2628E045477@adminwlzisp2uc>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original

   Thanks Hazem! Ya gotta SHARE as you learn about this stuff! hope I bring a
smile to the folks on the List, with my experiances, good and bad!?PROBABLY
blown up MORE badd-eries than anybody! Be carefull, hydrogen explosions are
dramatic and picturesque!I've been lucky!

     Gees H1N1? Feh! It's THAT bad, nowadaze? How do YOU keep from gettin'
it? Just curious? Dr's AREN'T supposed to get sick<g>?!

      Bob, still healthy?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hazem Sedra" <hazemsedra@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 9:43 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Alternator instead of DC to DC converter?


>
> Thanks Bob, for your great advise to newbiees concerning the honewmoon
> period
>
> with new batteries...very helpful advise!
>
>
>
> I am usually stuck in the office from 8 to 5 dealing with H1N1, so I look
> forward to your morning briefings to help me start the day right.
>
> Thanks
>
> Hazem
>
>> From: bobrice@...
>> To: ev@...
>> Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 01:40:16 -0500
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Alternator instead of DC to DC converter?
>>
>> Hi Doug;
>>
>> Break down, go to Wal*Mart or a cheepo parts place and pop 20 bux and buy
>> a garden tracter battery!They are small, VERY common, hence the cheap
>> price!
>> A Alternater belt driven off the front shaft of the motor works just
>> FINE. I
>> sense Wayne at EV Blue nodding and saying ;"I TOLD ya so!" He has done
>> over
>> ONE HUNDRED conversions! Sez it's the cheap way out. Do ya have the alt.
>> that the car was born with? HE always did! It's used to it, and it will
>> be
>> happy to have it back? Or as David sez, you might wanna pop for a GOOD ,
>> pricy, DC to dc, converter> I must say, my Sevcon one has been the most
>> trouble free thing on the car! When I was running 90 volts it didn't
>> care,
>> went back up to 120 volts, it never broke a sweat.I JUST hooked up an
>> Iota
>> in Mike O's S-10, seems to be doing fine, as it CAME with an AC plug I
>> just
>> plugged it in, and forgot about it, for tonite. I charged the 144 volt
>> pack
>> today, cooked it lightly with the
>> Monster Charge" Variac setup, got up to about 180 volts!Of COURSE I took
>> the
>> truk for a spin, it cruises along in 3rd at about 75-80 amps @ 40-45mph,
>> of
>> course it's hard to give constant amp draw figures as WHERE the hell do
>> ya
>> find ANY lenghty, FLAT road in CT??As I had NO tags, insurance, etc I
>> stayed
>> pretty darn close to home. I WANTED to crank her on, and see what she'd
>> do,
>> but not going for any speed stuff 'til legal!Oh the Vacuum brakes sure
>> would
>> be nice, too, for less stopping distance than a loaded Acela Express!
>> Gently
>> cycling the new badd-eries, go a few miles, charge 'er up again, do MORE
>> miles and charge her again. Yur batteries will thank you that you broke
>> them
>> in GENTLY! They will pay you back with loooong range and life.Well, it's
>> relative, sigh. I thought 20 k was a good lifespan for a pack of
>> floodies?But when they go, the animate perversity of in- animite objects;
>> one goes, and the OTHERS quickly follow. "IF he goes, I'm outta here,
>> too!"Believe me I tried replacing, onesies-twosies, but they, the rest of
>> the pack is on to you ,pretty quick!Good Union??
>>
>> My suggestion to youse newbees; don't chunk a new pack in yur pride and
>> joy, and go blasting off with a "look at me , look at me , now! (From
>> 'Cat
>> in the Hat!") How FAST it will go and how far? Don't be tempted. Break
>> them
>> in lightly. Go out 3-4 miles, come home an' charge, do it again when you
>> have a few more minutes, short runs, extend yur joy rides as your cyclage
>> builds up, stay outta the go(was gunna say GAS) pedal, go lightly! A
>> little
>> foreplay, if ya will?Build up 50-100 miles of gentle driving, before
>> going
>> to the races<g>/ Oh we don't do that here, THAT'S over on the NEDRA
>> Yahell
>> group site<g>!I would guess a 144 volt S-10 could manage 70-80 full bore?
>> EVentually, like a Conrail, or Union Pathetic, freight train?
>>
>> But, to sorta wander back to the point, I DO, occasuionally? The decent
>> Acc. Battery WILL get ya home when your charging system shits out! A
>> safety
>> thing as you can run your flashers, etc, AND pull in yur line switch!
>> MAYBE
>> ya should have a set of clip leads jumpers, say#10 wire, to tap the main
>> ,
>> traction pack IF ya got anything left THERE? So you can get home, dignity
>> intact. The garden tracter badd-eries go bad in about a year, I've found.
>> Last one died, I SMELLED the SMELL of hydrogen, THAT smell we ALL know
>> and
>> love so well! Ran down to my local battery place and got another GT
>> batterey. We're still honeymooning!Forgot about it, already!
>>
>> YMMV?
>>
>> Bob
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Douglas A. Stansfield" <Doug@...>
>> To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>;
>> <ev-bounces@...>
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 6:40 PM
>> Subject: [EVDL] Alternator instead of DC to DC converter?
>>
>>
>> > Dear EV enthusiasts,
>> >
>> MORE stuff below.
>> >
>> > I have put two Kelly DC to DC converters in my EV and the second one
>> > has
>> > now
>> > stopped charging my accessories battery and I am considering just
>> > installing
>> > this low cost Alternator off the motor with a pulley instead. Anybody
>> > have any reason to not do this and try again with a different DC/DC
>> > converter? I can drive around in the mean time with a fully charged
>> > Deep
>> > Cycle but that approach spooks me at night as I have had the Accessory
>> > battery die at night before and don't like that feeling at all. I live
>> > in
>> > the country and there are NO street lights to start trying to figure
>> > out
>> > the
>> > issue.
>> >
>> That's the TROUBLE with DC to dc's. They are silent, don't say
>> anything,good or bad, you don't know it has shit the bed, UNTIL a dark
>> night!I guess IF they hummed, whirred, beeped or SOMETHIN to let you know
>> they are STILL on the job? Of course a VOLT meter will clue you in.
>> >
>> > Since then, I have installed a Volt meter gauge strictly for the
>> > Accessory
>> > battery. Just in case it starts to look like it is going to go down
>> > when
>> > the brake pedal is depressed, I know I don't have much time left which
>> > happened tonight and thus figured out the DC/DC converter is toast
>> > again.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > As always, appreciate the input ahead of time.
>> >
>> > This is WHY were here!
>> >
>> > Doug Stansfield
>> >
>> > www.EVAlbum.com/1973
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -------------- next part --------------
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>> > _______________________________________________
>> > General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>> > Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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>> > Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Windows 7: Unclutter your desktop.
>
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9690331&ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL\
_WIN_evergreen:112009
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>



------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 10:58:13 -0500
From: "EVDL Administrator" <evpost@...>
Subject: [EVDL] EVDL Business: watch the email address!
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <4AFBEA45.28094.7A9A79@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Hi folks,

A couple of people have been sending posts addressed to both the correct
posting address (ev@...) and also to the server's "back door,"
ev-bounces@....

This second address causes problems for the listserver because it has to try
to figure out what to do with the mail.

Please don't use it.

Before you send a post, check the TO address line and remove "ev-bounces" if
you see it.

Thanks,

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" an "etpost" addresses will not
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =




------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 08:03:42 -0800
From: "Adrian DeLeon" <deleon@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC battery charger
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <op.u3ahkgt3820uig@madeline>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15; format=flowed;
	 delsp=yes

You can also try Absopulse.com, they make DC/DC converters for industrial
and railway use. I purchased a custom voltage (114V in, 13.8V out) BAP319
converter for about $700 US. A lot of their converters can be ordered for
higher input voltages.

-low input voltage protection
-inrush current limiting
-output overvoltage protection
-output overcurrent protection
-conformal coating & ruggedizing
-output diodes available
-150,000 hour MTBF @45C
-etc.

-Adrian

On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 13:04:37 -0800, Collin Kidder wrote:

> I've got a car with lithium ion batteries in a 370V pack. I've got a DC
> converter to go from that to 13.5V for the normal car stuff. I'd like to
> also put a 12V battery in as well to allow for better surge support,
> running acc while the car is off, etc. My DC/DC converter is not meant
> to be used as a battery charger. If I never let the 12V battery get very
> low I could possibly cheat and just send 13.5V to the battery and let it
> charge. But if the battery ever gets low it would overload the DC
> converter. So, is there a good option (and hopefully cheap) option to
> add a DC powered battery charger? (12V output. Amp output doesn't need
> to be very high)
>
> Part of the trouble is that 370V is quite high. Not very many DC
> converters or 12V battery chargers support that sort of input.
>
> I have thought about using diodes and a 6ohm power resistor to make a
> sort of makeshift 2A charger and source isolation circuit. It'd be crude
> but I think it's workable with only 2 power diodes and one power
> resistor. Is there any reason such a simple solution to the problem
> would be undesirable? I could draw something up real quick in a
> schematic editor if it would help to visualize what I'm thinking of
> doing here.
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



------------------------------

Message: 16
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 11:15:19 -0500
From: Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC Battery Charger
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <2b4886ce0911120815m6a8fb17bs6873c0454ed8ace5@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 9:05 PM, Collin Kidder <collink@...> wrote:

>
> (hopefully this threads right. I'm posting from the forum interface and it
> didn't have my thread in it for some reason...)
>
> Thanks for the suggestions. I thought about going that way. Maybe I still
> will use a dedicated 12V charger off of the AC. A potential problem is that
> this car is dual 110/220 on the charger so I cannot just hook up a 110
> charger unless it auto adjusts for 220V. However, I don't think 12V
> chargers
> normally do that.
>
> Instead, I still kind of want to do what I originally thought of. Here is a
> schematic I quick drew up. Please warn me if it wouldn't work for some
> reason.
>
> http://n4.nabble.com/file/n607107/Batt_scheme.png
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://n4.nabble.com/Re-DC-Battery-Charger-tp607107p607107.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> =======================revision successful ! ===================
>
Collin, with the added connection from DC/DC to Load The system will work.
You
will need to recalculate the Resistor value, with a DC/DC output at 13.8 V.
and a diode dropping 0.3 V. and a 12 V battery needing to be charged to 13.2
v. for full charge, the resistor will be only 0.075 ohms for 4 A. charge and
0.15 ohms for 2 A....
That is why I suggested a 12 V. charger, but, you will need to work out the
110/220
problem, there are many possible solutions but choosing the best is
dependent upon
  the particular connections you are making to the 110/220 ACV. sources.

Regards,

     Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
        Phone (863) 289 - 0690
"Mentoring, Small Group Instruction,
and Hands-On training
for the EV Technicians:
Building, Converting, Repairing,
and Servicing the
Electric Vehicles of Today,
and the Future."
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------------------------------

Message: 17
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 09:38:30 -0700
From: Bill Dennis <wjdennis@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC battery charger
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4AFC3A06.2020507@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

How about one of these Vicor units.  It will take up to 425V input, and
I think that can be paralleled if you need more than 600W output.

http://vicor.industrialpartner.com/other-industrial-v/v375a12c600a.htm

Bill



------------------------------

Message: 18
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 12:06:38 -0500
From: lawlessind@...
Subject: [EVDL] OBS Jr dragster at Orlando Speedworld this Sunday
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <8CC31D1A1E7B20F-6C4C-14AF8@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

The Lawless race team will be at Orlando Speedword ( Bithlo, FL ) this
Sunday from 10am - 4pm.
The OBS Jr dragster has been updated with a few new go fast and get
stopped goodies.
Join us if you can for a cold drink, hot food, and some great EV racing.

Shawn Lawless



------------------------------

Message: 19
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 12:17:34 -0500
From: "Douglas A. Stansfield" <Doug@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OBS Jr dragster at Orlando Speedworld this Sunday
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>,
	 <ev@...>
Message-ID: <005b01ca63bc$06b076f0$141164d0$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Dear Shawn,

Please video tape as much as you can a post it on Youtube for those of us up
north that can't make the trip!!!  I love to watch EV race video's but sadly
there aren't that many of them that are new posted on Youtube.

Love to see it!!!

Doug
www.evalbum.com/1973

-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
Of lawlessind@...
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 12:07 PM
To: ev@...
Subject: [EVDL] OBS Jr dragster at Orlando Speedworld this Sunday

The Lawless race team will be at Orlando Speedword ( Bithlo, FL ) this
Sunday from 10am - 4pm.
The OBS Jr dragster has been updated with a few new go fast and get
stopped goodies.
Join us if you can for a cold drink, hot food, and some great EV racing.

Shawn Lawless

_______________________________________________
General support: http://evdl.org/help/
Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
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------------------------------

Message: 20
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 08:25:49 -0900
From: m gol <gol.m86@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] not enough cash
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <1f1ce8720911120925r706a7ea5n33d8ce4836a5da84@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

a123 supply looks like ebay,, any other suggestions?

the problem is that ts60 vs ts100 weigh more per watt.

On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 3:03 AM, Morgan LaMoore <morganl@...> wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 9:43 PM, m gol <gol.m86@...> wrote:
> > ...
> > If I do a 72volt 100ah pack made up of A123 cells and connect it to a
> 72volt
> > pack made up of TS100's...
> >
> > does anyone see any issues? Would I be better off make a 144volt 60ah
> (a123)
> > + 144volt TS60's
>
> Hi,
>
> 72V TS in series with 72V A123 will only have the performance of
> Thunder Sky (although slightly better voltage sag), and you'd need a
> very good BMS to handle it.
>
> You will be much better off with 144V A123 60Ah in parallel with 144V TS60.
>
> Actually, I suggest Sky Energy over ThunderSky because Sky Energy has
> the same charge/discharge voltages as A123, while TS is higher
> voltage.
>
> However, you will need a separate BMS for each battery pack. Also,
> because A123 is more powerful, it will tend to provide more power at
> first, so it will empty before the TS has a chance to be used much.
> That means your car will be very powerful at first but will lose lots
> of power part-way through the charge.
>
> I've been thinking about such a pack, and I think it would work best
> with separate contactors and amp-hour contactors for each pack. You
> could use just ThunderSky for most of your driving and turn on the
> A123 booster when necessary. I would probably write software to
> automatically do this, but you could have a manually controlled
> switch.
>
> Where do you plan on getting the A123, just from the e-bay sellers?
>
> -Morgan
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
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>
>
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Message: 21
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 12:17:34 -0500
From: "Douglas A. Stansfield" <Doug@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OBS Jr dragster at Orlando Speedworld this Sunday
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>,
	 <ev@...>
Message-ID: <005b01ca63bc$06b076f0$141164d0$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Dear Shawn,

Please video tape as much as you can a post it on Youtube for those of us up
north that can't make the trip!!!  I love to watch EV race video's but sadly
there aren't that many of them that are new posted on Youtube.

Love to see it!!!

Doug
www.evalbum.com/1973

-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
Of lawlessind@...
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 12:07 PM
To: ev@...
Subject: [EVDL] OBS Jr dragster at Orlando Speedworld this Sunday

The Lawless race team will be at Orlando Speedword ( Bithlo, FL ) this
Sunday from 10am - 4pm.
The OBS Jr dragster has been updated with a few new go fast and get
stopped goodies.
Join us if you can for a cold drink, hot food, and some great EV racing.

Shawn Lawless

_______________________________________________
General support: http://evdl.org/help/
Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
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------------------------------

Message: 22
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 12:40:04 -0500
From: "EVDL Administrator" <evpost@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVDL Business: watch the email address!
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4AFC0224.428.D7DFAB@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Also, please stop using the old listserver address (ev@...).
That address is invalid.

Check your email before sending it to make sure the address is correct.  It
should say

ev@...

ONLY.  Nothing else.

Thanks,

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" an "etpost" addresses will not
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email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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------------------------------

Message: 23
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 12:53:39 -0500
From: Collin Kidder <collink@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC Battery Charger
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <4AFC4BA3.1080102@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

On 11/12/2009 11:15 AM, Dennis Miles wrote:
>
>> Instead, I still kind of want to do what I originally thought of. Here is a
>> schematic I quick drew up. Please warn me if it wouldn't work for some
>> reason.
>>
>>
>>
>>
> Collin, with the added connection from DC/DC to Load The system will work.
> You
> will need to recalculate the Resistor value, with a DC/DC output at 13.8 V.
> and a diode dropping 0.3 V. and a 12 V battery needing to be charged to 13.2
> v. for full charge, the resistor will be only 0.075 ohms for 4 A. charge and
> 0.15 ohms for 2 A....
> That is why I suggested a 12 V. charger, but, you will need to work out the
> 110/220
> problem, there are many possible solutions but choosing the best is
> dependent upon
>   the particular connections you are making to the 110/220 ACV. sources.
>
>

Actually that's a good point. I realize that the amperage depends on
resistance and voltage differential. My previous numbers were not taking
the fact that the battery has voltage into consideration. I guess that I
can see that your numbers come from this: The battery is full at 13.2 so
if the output is 13.8 and there is a .3V drop then the output to the
battery is 13.5. That's only .3V over the full battery. And 0.3 / 0.075
= 4A. That's the proper way to look at it right?



------------------------------

Message: 24
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 10:57:19 -0700
From: Bill Dennis <wjdennis@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lee, You're Full of It--Inspiration, That Is (WAS:
	 Pre-charge Addition)
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4AFC4C7F.5070909@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Lee Hart wrote:

  >Get a little reed switch...

Okay, I think I'm following you.  I've currently got #14 wire powering
the bulb, which is overkill.  I can replace it with #22 wire, then

    Connect #22 wire to Relay Pin 87, wrap it 10 times around reed
switch, connect other end to bulb positive

Bill




------------------------------

Message: 25
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 12:23:52 -0600
From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lee, You're Full of It--Inspiration, That Is (WAS:
	 Pre-charge Addition)
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4AFC52B8.7030003@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Lee Hart wrote:
>> Get a little reed switch...
>
Bill Dennis wrote:
> Okay, I think I'm following you. I've currently got #14 wire powering
> the bulb, which is overkill. I can replace it with #22 wire, then
> connect #22 wire to Relay Pin 87, wrap it 10 times around reed
> switch, connect other end to bulb positive.

Yes, that's the idea.

If you buy a new reed switch, the specs will tell you the ampere-turns
at which it pulls in. Typical numbers range from 1  AT for tiny reeds to
100 AT for big ones.

--
Lee A. Hart  | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N  | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen



------------------------------

Message: 26
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 10:46:27 -0800
From: Steven Lough <stevenslough@...>
Subject: [EVDL] Brammo E-motor cycle from $11,000 down to $7200.
To: seva@..., Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR
	 <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4AFC5803.2000000@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed

This is very good news.  Almost lowers the Price Point down to
My Pay Grade !!!

http://tinyurl.com/yck3uzx

--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle,  WA  98115-7230
Day:  206 524 1351
Cell:   206 850 8535
e-mail: stevenslough@...
web:     http://www.seattleeva.org



------------------------------

Message: 27
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 11:36:55 -0800
From: cowtown@...
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Brammo!
To: ev@...
Message-ID:
	 <20091112113655.g59aqba96skswwwc-pbjgbja@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes";
	 format="flowed"

<<< This is very good news.  Almost lowers the Price Point down to
My Pay Grade !!!

http://tinyurl.com/yck3uzx >>>

If it were *only* about the price, you could get a Vectrix for much
less (some sell as low as 3 grand on eBay), with greater range and
higher top speed, but you'd have an orphan vehicle, since the company
went belly-up (leaving a lot of demos sitting around unsold).

If you didn't feel comfortable driving the Brammo on the freeway, you
might as well go with something cheaper for surface street speeds. The
problem is that usually means Chinese-made stuff like my 40mph scooter
- it works, but for how long? I'd be happy if the next thing to die
was the lead-acid pack, instead of something hard-to-find or needing a
slow boat from you-know-where to get to me.



------------------------------

Message: 28
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 15:54:03 -0400
From: Martin K <martin.klingensmith@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Brammo E-motor cycle from $11,000 down to $7200.
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <d8f29a7d0911121154r5a9a47abi50914cce0b256770@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 2:46 PM, Steven Lough <stevenslough@...> wrote:
> This is very good news. ?Almost lowers the Price Point down to
> My Pay Grade !!!
>
> http://tinyurl.com/yck3uzx

I wish my commute was down to it's range.

--
Martin K.



------------------------------

Message: 29
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 14:52:16 -0500
From: Josh Wyatt <josh.wyatt@...>
Subject: [EVDL] Heat/AC caveat: 2000-2004 Ford Focus (public service
	 announcement :)
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4AFC6770.7080501@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Hello all,

I thought I'd share a discovery (and its implication) I made while converting my
2002 Ford Focus.  This applies to 2000-2004 Ford focii, and possibly beyond,
since they all have the same air box design.

In this vehicle, the airbox is mounted behind the center dash.  Inside the
airbox are the evaporator for the air conditioning system, as well as the heater
core.  Both the evaporator and the heater core are positioned horizontally, one
over the other ("stacked"), such that the air flow moves vertically through them
both.

The heater core is located directly beneath the AC evaporator core.  Under the
heater core is a plastic "pan" of sorts.  At the edge of this pan is the drain
hole for condensation from the AC evaporator.

It appears very likely that condensation from the evaporator core could drip
directly into the area of the heater core.  If you install a ceramic heater
element, or other pure electric solution, in place of the heater core (like I
did), do NOT keep the air conditioning!  As we all know, water and high voltage
electricity are incompatible.

Next summer, when restoring the AC in my car, I will be replacing the ceramic
element with a heated water/heater core solution.

Thanks,
Josh


--
Bob Pease and Win Hill walk into a bar...



------------------------------

_______________________________________________
EV@...
For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



End of EV Digest, Vol 28, Issue 17
**********************************

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (1)
#37632 From: ev-request@...
Date: Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:00 pm
Subject: EV Digest, Vol 28, Issue 18 		ev-request@...
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Today's Topics:

    1. Re: DC Battery Charger (Collin Kidder)
    2. Re: DC Battery Charger (Evan Tuer)
    3. Re: DC Battery Charger (Lee Hart)
    4. Dow Chemical and Kokam Li-Ion Batteries JOIN Forces (Steven Lough)
    5. Re: Alternator instead of DC to DC converter? (Lawrence Rhodes)
    6. EV on American Chopper (cowtown@...)
    7. Re: EV on American Chopper (cowtown@...)
    8. Re: Heat/AC caveat: 2000-2004 Ford Focus (public service
       announcement :) (Dennis Miles)
    9. Re: Heat/AC caveat: 2000-2004 Ford Focus (public service
       announcement :) (Josh Wyatt)
   10. Re: Alternator instead of DC to DC converter? (Dennis Miles)
   11. Ozone smell!? (Benjamin Nelson)
   12. Re: Lee, You're Full of It--Inspiration, That Is (WAS:
       Pre-charge Addition) (Richard Furniss)
   13. Re: Ozone smell!? (Roland Wiench)
   14. Re: Dow Chemical and Kokam Li-Ion Batteries JOIN Forces (tomw)
   15. Fw: Original Electric Vehicle literature, Fun Stuff (Bob Rice)
   16. Re: Nice Conversion For Sale if anyone is interested.....
       (Martin K)
   17. Re: Nice Conversion For Sale if anyone is interested.....
       (Dave Hymers)
   18. The NISSAN Road Tour (Steven Lough)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 16:15:50 -0500
From: Collin Kidder <collink@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC Battery Charger
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <4AFC7B06.8020808@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

On 11/12/2009 12:53 PM, Collin Kidder wrote:
>
> Actually that's a good point. I realize that the amperage depends on
> resistance and voltage differential. My previous numbers were not taking
> the fact that the battery has voltage into consideration. I guess that I
> can see that your numbers come from this: The battery is full at 13.2 so
> if the output is 13.8 and there is a .3V drop then the output to the
> battery is 13.5. That's only .3V over the full battery. And 0.3 / 0.075
> = 4A. That's the proper way to look at it right?
>
>
>

Replying to myself just to clarify this in case anyone else wants to try
it to make sure I'm not totally crazy.

The truth seems to be in between what I originally wanted to use (6 ohm
resistor) and what was suggested to me (0.075 ohm). In reality the goal
is to find a voltage on the lead acid cell which is to be considered
totally drained. I'll say that's 10.5V. Now, what I want to do is charge
at a certain amperage at total discharge (10.5V) and taper off as the
battery comes up. So if I set my desired charge to 8A then the
calculations are as follows:

13.5V output from DC/DC
.3V drop through a shottky diode
13.2V gets to the battery
10.5V is considered dead for my purposes
13.2 - 10.5 = 2.7V difference
R =  V/A so R = 2.7 / 8 = 0.338 ohms

Now, that will taper the charge from 8A down to zero as the battery
charges. There is a potential issue though. If the battery were allowed
to get REALLY dead (say, down to 4V) then 27A would pass through the
resistor. Chances are I wouldn't have a resistor rated for that sort of
wattage so I could kiss the resistor and/or the diode goodbye. However,
that's solvable (like a lot of chargers I could just refuse to charge at
that point) and all of this allows me to spend about $10 on parts
instead of having to buy another charger. Of course, it's not quite as
cool looking or fancy...



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 22:04:37 +0000
From: Evan Tuer <evan.tuer@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC Battery Charger
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <cc7432af0911121404u65c85cb2ndffcaf9f07569081@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 9:15 PM, Collin Kidder <collink@...> wrote:

> Now, that will taper the charge from 8A down to zero as the battery
> charges. There is a potential issue though. If the battery were allowed
> to get REALLY dead (say, down to 4V) then 27A would pass through the
> resistor. Chances are I wouldn't have a resistor rated for that sort of
> wattage so I could kiss the resistor and/or the diode goodbye.

You could add a fuse as well.
But I think you'd be as well just buying a suitable power supply with
output current limit, to be honest.

I have one similar to this:
http://www.vxipower.com/product_pdetail_12V-40A-OUTPUT---BCH-CHARGER_150.htm

That should be OK up to 400V (you might want to check with them first
of course).



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 17:25:59 -0600
From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC Battery Charger
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4AFC9987.4030307@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Collin Kidder wrote:
> Replying to myself just to clarify this in case anyone else wants to try
> it to make sure I'm not totally crazy.
>
> The truth seems to be in between what I originally wanted to use (6 ohm
> resistor) and what was suggested to me (0.075 ohm).

The solution for this is to use a light bulb in place of the fixed
resistor. Light bulbs behave like a crude constant-current source. Their
cold resistance is about 1/10th of their hot (rated voltage) resistance.

So for example, you can use a car headlight as your resistor. It will
limit the battery charging current to about 4-5 amps, for any battery
voltage from 0v to 13v.

--
Lee A. Hart  | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N  | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 15:25:31 -0800
From: Steven Lough <stevenslough@...>
Subject: [EVDL] Dow Chemical and Kokam Li-Ion Batteries JOIN Forces
To: seva@..., Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR
	 <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4AFC996B.4070503@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed

Interesting...!!   Am sure this fellow Ravi Shanker, their new President
of the Joint Venture, is not the same one sittarr mucician from the
'hippy sixties...'  Must be a fairly comon name.

http://tinyurl.com/yc42drp

Or then again, Maybe John Waland and his new Kokam powered "White
Zombie" knows something about Indian ethnic music that we do not... LOL

--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle,  WA  98115-7230
Day:  206 524 1351
Cell:   206 850 8535
e-mail: stevenslough@...
web:     http://www.seattleeva.org



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 16:30:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Lawrence Rhodes <primobassoon@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Alternator instead of DC to DC converter?
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <906396.9925.qm@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

http://www.iotaengineering.com/dls.htm
You can pick them up  on ebay for 100 dollars.  The advantage is that if you
keep the ac plug you can disconnect it & charge your battery separately from the
pack.  The 120v version can go up to about 180vdc & the 220 version much higher.
Make sure you get a 55amp version.  Some of the 45amp versions are the same
price.  Lawrence Rhodes...



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 17:42:47 -0800
From: cowtown@...
Subject: [EVDL] EV on American Chopper
To: ev@...
Message-ID:
	 <20091112174247.h12ny1knc4sgww40-pbjgbja@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes";
	 format="flowed"

I use to watch American Chopper a few years ago, but gave up on the
drama aspect. Don't know how long this has been out (they repeat
episodes constantly), but I happened by TLC tonight and I see they are
doing an electrified chopper.

Sears must be one of the sponsors [big Die Hard batteries (SLAs)
feature prominently], an Advanced DC motor (they call them to find out
how to make more room for mounting - whacking the internal fan made me
cringe), and an Alltrax controller...it's enough power to get around,
but I think they are more interested in looks than performance. Wish
they had chosen smaller cells, higher voltage, and a little injection
of "Zilla green"!

Anyone else seen this episode? Any comments on their process or the
end result?



------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:06:15 -0800
From: cowtown@...
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV on American Chopper
To: ev@...
Message-ID:
	 <20091112180615.qqeg9hlwysgsw4s4-pbjgbja@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes";
	 format="flowed"

A web search proved the American Chopper episode is a few weeks old,
so I apologize if this had been discussed already...but if the project
was sponsored by Siemens, why not use one of *their* drive systems?

Publicity states "100mph top speed, 60mi range" - 6 big AGMs should be
enough for that, but how fast have they actually taken it?



------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 21:08:52 -0500
From: Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heat/AC caveat: 2000-2004 Ford Focus (public
	 service announcement :)
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <2b4886ce0911121808j6bebea57o980efcb942f1d095@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 2:52 PM, Josh Wyatt <josh.wyatt@...> wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> I thought I'd share a discovery (and its implication) I made while
> converting my 2002 Ford Focus.  This applies to 2000-2004 Ford focii, and
> possibly beyond, since they all have the same air box design.
>
> In this vehicle, the airbox is mounted behind the center dash.  Inside the
> airbox are the evaporator for the air conditioning system, as well as the
> heater core.  Both the evaporator and the heater core are positioned
> horizontally, one over the other ("stacked"), such that the air flow moves
> vertically through them both.
>
> The heater core is located directly beneath the AC evaporator core.  Under
> the heater core is a plastic "pan" of sorts.  At the edge of this pan is the
> drain hole for condensation from the AC evaporator.
>
> It appears very likely that condensation from the evaporator core could
> drip directly into the area of the heater core.  If you install a ceramic
> heater element, or other pure electric solution, in place of the heater core
> (like I did), do NOT keep the air conditioning!  As we all know, water and
> high voltage electricity are incompatible.
>
> Next summer, when restoring the AC in my car, I will be replacing the
> ceramic element with a heated water/heater core solution.
>
> Thanks,
> Josh
>
>
> --
> Bob Pease and Win Hill walk into a bar...
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> =================alternate solution=======================

Josh,    Why not just put the ceramic heater element above the AC
Evaporator? Then any condensation drips away from the heater element. I seem
to recall from A-Cond Class that First airflow should pass thru the
evaporator for humidity control. then be heated to comfort level, so we feel
warmed dry air...
Regards,
     Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
        Phone (863) 289 - 0690
"Mentoring, Small Group Instruction,
and Hands-On training
for the EV Technicians:
Building, Converting, Repairing,
and Servicing the
Electric Vehicles of Today,
and the Future."
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------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 21:27:28 -0500
From: Josh Wyatt <josh.wyatt@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heat/AC caveat: 2000-2004 Ford Focus (public
	 service announcement :)
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4AFCC410.50609@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Dennis Miles wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 2:52 PM, Josh Wyatt <josh.wyatt@...> wrote:
>> The heater core is located directly beneath the AC evaporator core.  Under
>> the heater core is a plastic "pan" of sorts.  At the edge of this pan is the
>> drain hole for condensation from the AC evaporator.

> Josh,    Why not just put the ceramic heater element above the AC
> Evaporator? Then any condensation drips away from the heater element. I seem
> to recall from A-Cond Class that First airflow should pass thru the
> evaporator for humidity control. then be heated to comfort level, so we feel
> warmed dry air...
> Regards,
>     Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
> Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
> Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA

Hi Dennis,

Without seriously re-engineering that air box, including relocating the
evaporator, replumbing the refrigerant lines, etc, I doubt it's feasible,
although I have not completely disassembled the air box to see what's above the
evaporator.

It's worth pursuing at least in the shop manual, though.  Stay tuned.

Thanks,
Josh


--
Bob Pease and Win Hill walk into a bar...



------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 21:40:05 -0500
From: Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Alternator instead of DC to DC converter?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <2b4886ce0911121840q32e863das5b2d46da44012202@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 1:40 AM, Bob Rice <bobrice@...> wrote:

>   Hi Doug;
>
>   Break down, go to Wal*Mart or a cheepo parts place and pop 20 bux and buy
> a garden tracter battery!They are small, VERY common, hence the cheap
> price!
> A Alternater belt driven off the front shaft of the motor works just FINE.
> I
> sense Wayne at EV Blue nodding and saying ;"I TOLD ya so!" He has done over
> ONE HUNDRED conversions! Sez it's the cheap way out. Do ya have the alt.
> that the car was born with? HE always did! It's used to it, and it will be
> happy to have it back? Or as David sez, you might wanna pop for a GOOD ,
> pricy, DC to dc, converter> I must say, my Sevcon one has been the most
> trouble free thing on the car! When I was running 90 volts it didn't care,
> went back up to 120 volts, it never broke a sweat.I JUST hooked up an Iota
> in Mike O's S-10, seems to be doing fine, as it CAME with an AC plug I just
> plugged it in, and forgot about it, for tonite. I charged the 144 volt pack
> today, cooked it lightly with the
> Monster Charge" Variac setup, got up to about 180 volts!Of COURSE I took
> the
> truk for a spin, it cruises along in 3rd at about 75-80 amps @ 40-45mph, of
> course it's hard to give constant amp draw figures as WHERE the hell do ya
> find ANY lenghty, FLAT road in CT??As I had NO tags, insurance, etc I
> stayed
> pretty darn close to home. I WANTED to crank her on, and see what she'd do,
> but not going for any speed stuff 'til legal!Oh the Vacuum brakes sure
> would
> be nice, too, for less stopping distance than a loaded Acela Express!
> Gently
> cycling the new badd-eries, go a few miles, charge 'er up again, do MORE
> miles and charge her again. Yur batteries will thank you that you broke
> them
> in GENTLY! They will pay you back with loooong range and life.Well, it's
> relative, sigh. I thought 20 k was a good lifespan for a pack of
> floodies?But when they go, the animate perversity of in- animite objects;
> one goes, and the OTHERS quickly follow. "IF he goes, I'm outta here,
> too!"Believe me I tried replacing, onesies-twosies, but they, the rest of
> the pack is on to you ,pretty quick!Good Union??
>
>    My suggestion to youse newbees; don't chunk a new pack in yur pride and
> joy, and go blasting off with a "look at me , look at me , now! (From 'Cat
> in the Hat!") How FAST it will go and how far? Don't be tempted. Break them
> in lightly. Go out 3-4 miles, come home an' charge, do it again when you
> have a few more minutes, short runs, extend yur joy rides as your cyclage
> builds up, stay outta the go(was gunna say GAS) pedal, go lightly! A little
> foreplay, if ya will?Build up 50-100 miles of gentle driving, before going
> to the races<g>/ Oh we don't do that here, THAT'S  over on the NEDRA Yahell
> group site<g>!I would guess a 144 volt S-10 could manage 70-80 full bore?
> EVentually, like a Conrail, or Union Pathetic, freight train?
>
>    But, to sorta wander back to the point, I DO, occasuionally? The decent
> Acc. Battery WILL get ya home when your charging system shits out! A safety
> thing as you can run your flashers, etc, AND pull in yur line switch! MAYBE
> ya should have a set of clip leads jumpers, say#10 wire, to tap the main ,
> traction pack IF ya got anything left THERE? So you can get home, dignity
> intact. The garden tracter badd-eries go bad in about a year, I've found.
> Last one died, I SMELLED the SMELL of hydrogen, THAT smell we ALL know and
> love so well! Ran down to my local battery place and got another GT
> batterey. We're still honeymooning!Forgot about it, already!
>
>    YMMV?
>
>     Bob
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Douglas A. Stansfield" <Doug@...>
> To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>;
> <ev-bounces@...>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 6:40 PM
> Subject: [EVDL] Alternator instead of DC to DC converter?
>
>
> > Dear EV enthusiasts,
> >
>      MORE stuff below.
> >
> > I have put two Kelly DC to DC converters in my EV and the second one has
> > now
> > stopped charging my accessories battery and I am considering just
> > installing
> > this low cost Alternator off the motor with a pulley instead.    Anybody
> > have any reason to not do this and try again with a different DC/DC
> > converter?  I can drive around in the mean time with a fully charged Deep
> > Cycle but that approach spooks me at night as I have had the Accessory
> > battery die at night before and don't like that feeling at all.  I live
> in
> > the country and there are NO street lights to start trying to figure out
> > the
> > issue.
> >
>       That's the TROUBLE with DC to dc's. They are silent, don't say
> anything,good or bad, you don't know it has shit the bed, UNTIL a dark
> night!I guess IF they hummed, whirred, beeped or SOMETHIN to let you know
> they are STILL on the job? Of course a VOLT meter will clue you in.
> >
> > Since then, I have installed a Volt meter gauge strictly for the
> Accessory
> > battery.  Just in case it starts to look like it is going to go down when
> > the brake pedal is depressed, I know I don't have much time left which
> > happened tonight and thus figured out the DC/DC converter is toast again.
> >
> >
> >
> > As always, appreciate the input ahead of time.
> >
> > This is WHY were here!
> >
> > Doug Stansfield
> >
> > www.EVAlbum.com/1973
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL:
> >
>
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20091111/92cb71b9/attachmen\
t.html
> > _______________________________________________
> > General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> > Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> > Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> > Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> =========================ALTERNATOR==========================
>
Hi Bob and Doug,  It feels like time to offer my encouragement, Like Wayne,
I agree that an alternator belt driven off the brush end shaft of the series
DC motor is still the most reliable and fairly inexpensive way to keep the
12 V. accessory battery charged. I like keeping it simple so if the original
alternator from the glider is not available (And can be switched on and off
by the power (Ignition) switch) then I use a Motorola "One Wire" Alternator,
just one wire to connect to the 12 V. battery and ground the mount to the 12
V. negative.  my boating friends swear by their simple hook up and great
reliability even in Marine use... get them at any "Marine Supply" and many
other sources.
Regards,
     Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
        Phone (863) 289 - 0690
"Mentoring, Small Group Instruction,
and Hands-On training
for the EV Technicians:
Building, Converting, Repairing,
and Servicing the
Electric Vehicles of Today,
and the Future."
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------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 21:43:01 -0600
From: Benjamin Nelson <ben@...>
Subject: [EVDL] Ozone smell!?
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <F2257DAB-5269-44A6-BCE2-60EA18CA3F18@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes

Hey guys, I drive a modest little Geo Metro, home converted to electric.

I just recently upgraded from my used Group 31 Deka Gel Cells to some
slightly less used Discover AGMS of the same size.

Driving today, I smelled ozone - the smell those electronic air
ionizers make. Where is it coming from? Is something terrible
happening to my AGMs?

The only other thing I can think of is that I also recently insulated
my battery box (under the back seat, inside the car) using pink foam.

Why/Where is this smell coming from!??! Weird smells are typically a
warning that something is wrong, so this has me a little worried!

Thanks,

-Ben Nelson



------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:55:38 -0800
From: "Richard Furniss" <rfurniss1@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lee, You're Full of It--Inspiration, That Is (WAS:
	 Pre-charge Addition)
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <CA29439FA6624F1FB6FD52851EA3A8F8@richard01>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Bill Dennis wrote:
> Okay... Lee mentioned playing the Jetson's theme with a motor.
Lee Hart wrote:
I like it! :-) You just may have inspired me to do it as well.

I'm reading this LOL, and thinking you guys have way to much time on your hands.

Have a renewable sustainable energy day

Richard Furniss
Las Vegas NV
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------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 20:57:16 -0800
From: "Roland Wiench" <ev_7@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Ozone smell!?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <BLU144-DS26A08AA80582C6564E75ABEA80@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Sometimes ozone is release when there is a electrical arc.  This arc could
be so small or between two contacts, you cannot see it in the light.

While charging the batteries in the dark, inspect the batteries for any
arcing.  I had arcing in one battery top that had a bad seal around the post
to the next battery.

A battery post clamp may have melt back after a initial drive which is call
shrink back of the lead surfaces.  After driving about 5 miles with new
batteries, it is recommended to retighten the battery clamps.

While the batteries are charging, take voltmeter reading from a battery post
to the top of the battery case about 1/16 of a inch away from the other
post.  This will show if you have a bad post seal.

Then take a reading from a battery post to the vehicle frame.  While holding
one test lead on the vehicle frame, slide the other test lead off the post
and onto the top of the battery. If you see any voltage on these path, then
the current is conducting across these surfaces.

I had this happen one time, and see arcing from one battery to the side of
the battery box.

Another path that cause these minute arcs, is in the brush dust that is
tracking from the commentator down to the motor shaft.  The face of my
commentator was not insulated with motor enamel.  I clean the commentator
and spray on motor winding enamel coating that I got from a motor shop.

A clean motor should read in the million ohm range.  When it gets down to
below 30K ohms, then its time to clean the motor.

Also check all connections and contactor contacts.   The contacts should
make first before load is apply and load is remove before the contacts open.
The contacts surfaces should look polish and new the day they were built.

Sometimes moisture between contacts or connections that may have any expose
copper that are not torque to specifications, will release the ozone.

Roland




----- Original Message -----
From: "Benjamin Nelson" <ben@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 7:43 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Ozone smell!?


> Hey guys, I drive a modest little Geo Metro, home converted to electric.
>
> I just recently upgraded from my used Group 31 Deka Gel Cells to some
> slightly less used Discover AGMS of the same size.
>
> Driving today, I smelled ozone - the smell those electronic air
> ionizers make. Where is it coming from? Is something terrible
> happening to my AGMs?
>
> The only other thing I can think of is that I also recently insulated
> my battery box (under the back seat, inside the car) using pink foam.
>
> Why/Where is this smell coming from!??! Weird smells are typically a
> warning that something is wrong, so this has me a little worried!
>
> Thanks,
>
> -Ben Nelson
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>



------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 05:47:24 -0800 (PST)
From: tomw <tomofreno2000@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Dow Chemical and Kokam Li-Ion Batteries JOIN
	 Forces
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <1258120044590-620971.post@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


I believe that was Ravi Shankar.  Interesting.  Kokams cells offer higher
energy density than other lithium cells but are very expensive produced in
Korea.  Labor costs are higher here.  Seems like this move would increase
cell cost rather than lower it. I'm sure they have some workable business
model though, maybe based on stimulus money/factory automation.  I surely
hope they are successful.


Steven Lough wrote:
>
> Interesting...!!   Am sure this fellow Ravi Shanker, their new President
> of the Joint Venture, is not the same one sittarr mucician from the
> 'hippy sixties...'  Must be a fairly comon name.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/yc42drp
>
> Or then again, Maybe John Waland and his new Kokam powered "White
> Zombie" knows something about Indian ethnic music that we do not... LOL
>
> --
> Steven S. Lough, Pres.
> Seattle EV Association
> 6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
> Seattle,  WA  98115-7230
> Day:  206 524 1351
> Cell:   206 850 8535
> e-mail: stevenslough@...
> web:     http://www.seattleeva.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
>

--
View this message in context:
http://n4.nabble.com/Dow-Chemical-and-Kokam-Li-Ion-Batteries-JOIN-Forces-tp62064\
0p620971.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.



------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 09:10:01 -0500
From: "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
Subject: [EVDL] Fw: Original Electric Vehicle literature, Fun Stuff
To: <ev@...>
Message-ID: <0F8694FC4CAB43E7AB38400F30830671@adminwlzisp2uc>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original

    Hi EVerybody;

    This link was a trip down memory lane for me! Electric Fuel, Citicar,
McKee's Engineering, EVen the Copper Development Assoc?! Gees! WHERE did
they come up with this stuff?It is rather pricy to buy back some of my
history, but Oh well? I'm more into the FUTURE, nowadaze, IF there is one?
Gees! Watch all the doomsday senerios on History Channel and Diss-covery! I
can see WHY sheeple junk their TV's? But Turners Classic Movies is fun!
Again, looking WHERE we've been?

    Seeya in 2013? 2012 seems to be the End of the World? AND EV development?
FEH!

    Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "McLellan's Automotive History" <contact@...>
To: <bobrice@...>
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 8:38 AM
Subject: Original Electric Vehicle literature


> Hello,
>
> This is just to point you to our Electric Vehicles literature page:
> http://www.mclellansautomotive.com/lit/bysub/electricvehicles/index.shtml
>
> There are pages for the following Makes featuring hundreds of items:
>
> - Anderson Power Products
> - Autoette
> - Boyertown
> - Braun Elec
> - Bucciali
> - Citi Car/Vanguard
> - Copper Development Assn.
> - Eagle
> - Elcar
> - Electra
> - Electra King
> - Electra Van
> - Electric Auto Corp.
> - Electric Fuel Propulsion
> - Electric Passenger Cars
> - Electric Shopper
> - Electro Master  Electromotion
> - Endura
> - EVR-1
> - Free-Way
> - Garrett Corporation
> - General Engines
> - Goliath
> - Hevan
> - Lad Industries
> - Laguna Electric
> - Laher
> - Lectran
> - Marathon
> - Marketour
> - Mars II
> - McKee Engineering Corp.
> - Mobilette
> - Mota
> - Nu-Klea
> - Omega
> - Pargo
> - Sports Rider
> - Stuart
> - Titan
> - Voltra
> - Westcoaster
> - Zele
>
> EV SALES LITERATURE (43 Makes)
> =========================
> http://www.mclellansautomotive.com/lit/bysub/electricvehicles/index.shtml
>
> EV DEALER LITERATURE
> =========================
>
http://www.mclellansautomotive.com/lit/bytype/dealer-inhouse/electricvehicles/in\
dex.shtml
>
> EV MEMORABILIA
> =========================
>
http://www.mclellansautomotive.com/lit/bytype/memorabilia/electricvehicles/index\
.shtml
>
>
> Best wishes,
>
> McLellan's Automotive History
> E-mail: contact@...
> Website: www.MclellansAutomotive.com
>
> NOTE: You have been sent this e-mail based on your known interest in
> Electric Vehicles. If this has reached you in error or you do not wish to
> receive any further information, please reply with UNSUBSCRIBE in the
> subjectline. Any inconvenience caused is deeply regretted.
>
>
>
>
>



------------------------------

Message: 16
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 14:24:09 -0400
From: Martin K <martin.klingensmith@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nice Conversion For Sale if anyone is
	 interested.....
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <d8f29a7d0911131024w7c80ef81ndf833a9849e5a801@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 9:11 PM, Douglas A. Stansfield
<Doug@...> wrote:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BV-FKEz8c4
>
>
>
> Ford Ranger Conversion.

Valued at $30k ?!


--
Martin K.



------------------------------

Message: 17
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 11:38:50 -0700
From: Dave Hymers <dhymers@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nice Conversion For Sale if anyone is
	 interested.....
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <ec811c3f0911131038v3d1ea0f8t8b7ba32192ce9b29@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

It does look very nice, but I was a bit shocked by that ....
valued by who ?
does he have receipts for 30k ?
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Message: 18
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 10:47:25 -0800
From: Steven Lough <stevenslough@...>
Subject: [EVDL] The NISSAN Road Tour
To: seva@..., Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR
	 <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4AFDA9BD.2020501@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed

Wonder if any EAA or PIA Members will get time in the Drivers Seat ??

Let us know California, She'll be in Seattle 12/08....

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/13/nissan-takes-leaf-electric-car-on-tou\
r/
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle,  WA  98115-7230
Day:  206 524 1351
Cell:   206 850 8535
e-mail: stevenslough@...
web:     http://www.seattleeva.org



------------------------------

_______________________________________________
EV@...
For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



End of EV Digest, Vol 28, Issue 18
**********************************

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (1)
#37633 From: SBA (Small Business Advisor) <noreply@...>
Date: Fri Nov 13, 2009 11:20 pm
Subject: 10th Annual Business Recognition 		noreply@...
Send Email Send Email
 
Diversity Business News

Dear Colleague,

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Making the list provides significant media exposure and puts your company name in front of Fortune 500 companies, Government Agencies and College/Universities looking to do business with privately-held businesses.

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  • Top 100 Privately-Held Businesses in the State
  • Top 100 Small Businesses in the State
  • Top 100 Women Owned Businesses in the State
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  • Top 100 Veteran Owned Businesses in the State
  • Top 500  Privately-Held Businesses in the United States
  • Top 500 Women Owned Businesses in the United States
  • Top 500 Diversity Owned Businesses in the United States
  • Top 500 Emerging Businesses in the United States

This marks the 10th year for this massive national data collection effort. Your company may qualify in one of the above categories. All businesses are encouraged to register. Last years winners received enormous recognition and exposure for their companies

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Register today at:     http://216.117.129.34/bawards.asp


 

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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (1)
#37634 From: ev-request@...
Date: Sat Nov 14, 2009 8:00 pm
Subject: EV Digest, Vol 28, Issue 19 		ev-request@...
Send Email Send Email
  
Send EV mailing list submissions to
	 ev@...

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	 http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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You can reach the person managing the list at
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
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of your message, and quote only the parts to which you're replying.



Today's Topics:

    1. Re: The NISSAN Road Tour (EVDL Administrator)
    2. Re: Nice Conversion For Sale if anyone is interested.....
       (Bob Rice)
    3. Re: Nice Conversion For Sale if anyone is interested.....
       (Douglas A. Stansfield)
    4. Re: Nice Conversion For Sale if anyone is interested.....
       (Bob Rice)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 16:57:28 -0500
From: "EVDL Administrator" <evpost@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] The NISSAN Road Tour
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4AFD8FF8.30397.18B7917@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On 13 Nov 2009 at 10:47, Steven Lough wrote:

> Wonder if any EAA or PIA Members will get time in the Drivers Seat ??

Not unless they're rich or influential, and not in the Leaf's seat even if
they are.  Here's what the NYT piece says :

"The Leaf prototype that crowds will be checking out is close to what the
production will look like. But the car on display doesn?t run.

"However, a Nissan Versa outfitted with the Leaf?s powertrain will be
available for special drives for the news media, politicians and V.I.P.?s.
No public drives will be offered."

Cool, I can go look at a non-operational sample, and watch some
disinterested local politician drive something else.  Great.

This is a car they say they're going to sell in a year, and they don't even
have a working prototype that potential buyers can drive?  Sounds like
they've hired GM's PR department.  Way to go, Nissan.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" an "etpost" addresses will not
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email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 18:46:15 -0500
From: "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nice Conversion For Sale if anyone is
	 interested.....
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <47239003BDDF445EAA7D974EDAD0D26E@adminwlzisp2uc>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original

    Oh! It's lovely, BUT arent the badd-eries in the BED? I JUST did an S-10
and stowed 21 of them UNDER the bed! Makes a more useful truck?!And guessing
it's in ORegon, by the tags? Sigh! I'll bet I could PROBABLY sell it HERE at
our club meeting? We had a S-10 here one of our members GAVE AWAY at 3k, I
coulda sold it 2-3 TIMES!I mean it take about 10k worth of parts and a
Zillion hours labor, to build it! Ask me how I know!?But I'll sure as hell
bring it up!

    Seeya Tomorrow!

    Bob, in CT.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin K" <martin.klingensmith@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 1:24 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nice Conversion For Sale if anyone is interested.....


> On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 9:11 PM, Douglas A. Stansfield
> <Doug@...> wrote:
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BV-FKEz8c4
>>
>>
>>
>> Ford Ranger Conversion.
>
> Valued at $30k ?!
>
>
> --
> Martin K.
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 19:15:15 -0500
From: "Douglas A. Stansfield" <Doug@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nice Conversion For Sale if anyone is
	 interested.....
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <001501ca64bf$8aa300f0$9fe902d0$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I think he will take offers so if you offer him $10,000 or $15,000 see what
he says?  He might just want to get some of his money back.  His sister is
doing the listing of this as he doesn't have the internet.  She said he
might take less.  She also said he is putting a brand new set of batteries
in it so it will be in "like new" EV condition.


Sincerely;

Douglas A. Stansfield
President
www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
973-875-6276 (office)
973-670-9208 (cell)
973-440-1619 (fax)

WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS




-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
Of Bob Rice
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 6:46 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nice Conversion For Sale if anyone is interested.....

    Oh! It's lovely, BUT arent the badd-eries in the BED? I JUST did an S-10
and stowed 21 of them UNDER the bed! Makes a more useful truck?!And guessing

it's in ORegon, by the tags? Sigh! I'll bet I could PROBABLY sell it HERE at

our club meeting? We had a S-10 here one of our members GAVE AWAY at 3k, I
coulda sold it 2-3 TIMES!I mean it take about 10k worth of parts and a
Zillion hours labor, to build it! Ask me how I know!?But I'll sure as hell
bring it up!

    Seeya Tomorrow!

    Bob, in CT.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin K" <martin.klingensmith@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 1:24 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nice Conversion For Sale if anyone is interested.....


> On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 9:11 PM, Douglas A. Stansfield
> <Doug@...> wrote:
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BV-FKEz8c4
>>
>>
>>
>> Ford Ranger Conversion.
>
> Valued at $30k ?!
>
>
> --
> Martin K.
>
> _______________________________________________
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------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 19:41:31 -0500
From: "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nice Conversion For Sale if anyone is
	 interested.....
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <C24108E9ED9C4D5B88BD758AF51F2497@adminwlzisp2uc>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original

    I THINK the going price for a Ranger like that is about 10-15k? Couldn't
be sure? Has she hit the OR EAA gang? It's in THEIR 'hood? Badd-eries; about
25 hundred? Interesting she is hitting up US Least Coasters, I would sure
like it to join OUR growing fleet?

     Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas A. Stansfield" <Doug@...>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 7:15 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nice Conversion For Sale if anyone is interested.....


>I think he will take offers so if you offer him $10,000 or $15,000 see what
> he says?  He might just want to get some of his money back.  His sister is
> doing the listing of this as he doesn't have the internet.  She said he
> might take less.  She also said he is putting a brand new set of batteries
> in it so it will be in "like new" EV condition.
>
>
> Sincerely;
>
> Douglas A. Stansfield
> President
> www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
> 973-875-6276 (office)
> 973-670-9208 (cell)
> 973-440-1619 (fax)
>
> WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
> And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On
> Behalf
> Of Bob Rice
> Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 6:46 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nice Conversion For Sale if anyone is interested.....
>
>   Oh! It's lovely, BUT arent the badd-eries in the BED? I JUST did an S-10
> and stowed 21 of them UNDER the bed! Makes a more useful truck?!And
> guessing
>
> it's in ORegon, by the tags? Sigh! I'll bet I could PROBABLY sell it HERE
> at
>
> our club meeting? We had a S-10 here one of our members GAVE AWAY at 3k, I
> coulda sold it 2-3 TIMES!I mean it take about 10k worth of parts and a
> Zillion hours labor, to build it! Ask me how I know!?But I'll sure as hell
> bring it up!
>
>   Seeya Tomorrow!
>
>   Bob, in CT.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Martin K" <martin.klingensmith@...>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
> Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 1:24 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nice Conversion For Sale if anyone is interested.....
>
>
>> On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 9:11 PM, Douglas A. Stansfield
>> <Doug@...> wrote:
>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BV-FKEz8c4
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Ford Ranger Conversion.
>>
>> Valued at $30k ?!
>>
>>
>> --
>> Martin K.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
> _______________________________________________
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>



------------------------------

_______________________________________________
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For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



End of EV Digest, Vol 28, Issue 19
**********************************

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (1)
#37635 From: ev-request@...
Date: Sun Nov 15, 2009 8:00 pm
Subject: EV Digest, Vol 28, Issue 20 		ev-request@...
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Today's Topics:

    1. Re: EV on American Chopper (Dennis Miles)
    2. Controller waterproofness (Andrew Wood)
    3. How much height above the SE60 with elithion BMS to reserve?
       (Peter C. Thompson)
    4. High Voltage Reversing Ideas? (ratliffgrp@...)
    5. Nice Conversion For Sale if anyone is interested...
       (cowtown@...)
    6. Nissan Leaf to be low cost (jerryd)
    7. Re: The NISSAN Road Tour (Jeff Shanab)
    8. Re: DC battery charger (Cor van de Water)
    9. Re: Alternator instead of DC to DC converter? (Cor van de Water)
   10. Scooter controller question (cowtown@...)
   11. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost (Dave Hymers)
   12. Re: High Voltage Reversing Ideas? (Matt Lacey)
   13. Re: Controller waterproofness (Roland Wiench)
   14. Re: Controller waterproofness (Dennis Miles)
   15. Re: High Voltage Reversing Ideas? (Lee Hart)
   16. Re: How much height above the SE60 with elithion BMS to
       reserve? (Otmar)
   17. Re: High Voltage Reversing Ideas? (Dennis Miles)
   18. Heater relay for 70V, 5A? (David Nelson)
   19. Re: Scooter controller question (Matt Lacey)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 08:52:11 -0500
From: Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV on American Chopper
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <2b4886ce0911140552n33f8da35pfa18e4a45a440fe0@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 9:06 PM, <cowtown@...> wrote:

> A web search proved the American Chopper episode is a few weeks old,
> so I apologize if this had been discussed already...but if the project
> was sponsored by Siemens, why not use one of *their* drive systems?
>
> Publicity states "100mph top speed, 60mi range" - 6 big AGMs should be
> enough for that, but how fast have they actually taken it?
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> ==============how fast????=======================
>
>From the video, it was a beautiful design project and the finished bike
looks darn good. But, I suspect it hasn't been over 30 mph, except on a
trailer.  LOL (;-))
Regards,
     Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
        Phone (863) 289 - 0690
"Mentoring, Small Group Instruction,
and Hands-On training
for the EV Technicians:
Building, Converting, Repairing,
and Servicing the
Electric Vehicles of Today,
and the Future."
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------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 15:34:11 +0000
From: Andrew Wood <ajwood@...>
Subject: [EVDL] Controller waterproofness
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <63871E49-D98A-4A6C-B306-65481D1E6F02@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed

How waterproof are Synkromotive controllers and Zivan DC converters

Is in the engine compartment dry enough for them?

Regards
Andrew

Sent from iPhone



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 08:27:43 -0800
From: "Peter C. Thompson" <pthompso@...>
Subject: [EVDL] How much height above the SE60 with elithion BMS to
	 reserve?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4AFEDA7F.1080106@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed

Hi Folks,

I need to trim down my battery boxes to better fit inside my trunks
(porsche 914) - how much space do I need to keep above my SE60 batteries
when using the Elithion BMS?  I don't have the BMS yet, is why I'm
asking.  I hope all I need is 1 inch, as that would be perfect.  :)
(The interconnects will be flat braided copper cable, so the most that
will need is 1/2 inch).

Thanks in advance,
     Peter



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 11:39:52 -0500
From: ratliffgrp@...
Subject: [EVDL] High Voltage Reversing Ideas?
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <8CC33603984C77E-7C8-3C8D@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hello All,

I have a question for those with experience in Higher Voltage vehicles.  I am
building a quick custom 3-Wheeler and have a Zilla 1kHV controller on hand to
push it around with.  I want to use a Pack Voltage of around 288 Volts and run
that into TWO D&D ES-31C Motors, mechanically coupled together.  In effect, they
would each get 144 volts, which is within their rated limits. My question is
this:  What would be the safest and most reliable way to enable electrically
reversing these motors, given the Higher Pack Voltage?  A pack voltage
approaching 300 volts would greatly exceed the ratings on a set of Albright
reversing contactors.  May I solicit ideas from you folks?

THANKS!

David R.
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------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 08:49:58 -0800
From: cowtown@...
Subject: [EVDL] Nice Conversion For Sale if anyone is interested...
To: ev@...
Message-ID:
	 <20091114084958.hc8boy6ohwck4c48-pbjgbja@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes";
	 format="flowed"

<<<<   I THINK the going price for a Ranger like that is about 10-15k?
Couldn't
be sure? Has she hit the OR EAA gang? It's in THEIR 'hood? Badd-eries; about
25 hundred? Interesting she is hitting up US Least Coasters, I would sure
like it to join OUR growing fleet?

      Bob >>>>

Yes, an Ford Ranger electrified by Ford runs under $15K and the pack
is in-between the rails of the frame, but maybe this home-converter is
also factoring his time, which to anyone *outside* the EV community is
worth $0, but since it takes so long for most people to get their EV
"right", is probably worth several grand, even at minimum wage.



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 14:50:21 -0500
From: "jerryd" <jerryd@...>
Subject: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4aff09fd.cc.2ed5.641956763@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"



               Hi All,

                  Nissan is going to price the Leaf EV about
the same as an ICE!!

By Mary Milliken

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Nissan Motor Co Ltd will keep the
price of its upcoming battery-powered Leaf competitive with
similar-sized cars and expects to make money on the vehicle
despite the cost of its launch, Chief Executive Carlos Ghosn
on Friday.

The five-passenger hatchback, which is being designed to
have an all-electric range of 100 miles, would cost only 1
to 2 percent more than traditional combustion engine
vehicles in its class, he said.

"On the pricing of the vehicle it is too early to say, but
there will be no surprise," Ghosn said. "We know it will be
the key to the mass market."

Nissan has not disclosed pricing on the Leaf, but has said
it expects the car to be the first affordable, mass-market
electric car when it goes on sale in the United States,
Japan and Europe by the end of 2010.

http://www.reuters.com/article/GCA-GreenBusiness/idUSTRE5AC4VC20091113?pageNumbe\
r=1&virtualBrandChannel=11604


                                           Jerry Dycus



------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 13:19:22 -0800
From: Jeff Shanab <jshanab@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] The NISSAN Road Tour
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <4AFF1EDA.3060400@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I just wish they would take a slight detour on their way from LA to SF
and stop in Fresno.

   We live in a valley with a lot of smog problems. And it is flat.
     OMG, Wikiedia says we are only 100 square miles, you could cover
every one on a single charge.  :-)
     The point is we have a real need for these cars and an ideal setting
and are ignored, (unless they need a gullible court to overturn a law)


> On 13 Nov 2009 at 10:47, Steven Lough wrote:
>
>
>> > Wonder if any EAA or PIA Members will get time in the Drivers Seat ??
>>
>
> Not unless they're rich or influential, and not in the Leaf's seat even if
> they are.  Here's what the NYT piece says :
>
> "The Leaf prototype that crowds will be checking out is close to what the
> production will look like. But the car on display doesn?t run.
>
> "However, a Nissan Versa outfitted with the Leaf?s powertrain will be
> available for special drives for the news media, politicians and V.I.P.?s.
> No public drives will be offered."
>
> Cool, I can go look at a non-operational sample, and watch some
> disinterested local politician drive something else.  Great.
>
> This is a car they say they're going to sell in a year, and they don't even
> have a working prototype that potential buyers can drive?  Sounds like
> they've hired GM's PR department.  Way to go, Nissan.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" an "etpost" addresses will not
> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
>
>
>



------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 14:12:33 -0800
From: "Cor van de Water" <CWater@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC battery charger
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <1E3D081C7B502B4A988F643E604CF963932AF1@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

370V nominal as in 100 cells in series?
That is a bit higher than most factory conversions
which typcally have around 312V pack voltage.
Most European power supplies (and wide-input units
with high frequent switching conversion) may reach
up to 400V DC (up to 260V AC with safety margin so
400V components are used) but if you charge 100
Lithium cells you could potentially reach 420V or so.

There are power supplies that survive this level,
but they are more difficult to find than units below 400V
To what voltage level are you charging your Lithiums?

I have been experimenting with Dell server power supplies
which (like many other larger power supplies) consist of
a PFC front-end that switches the incoming AC to 400V DC
while loading the AC with an AC current (PF=1)
then a second stage takes the raw 400V DC with ripple
and switches it to the required 3.3 5 and 12V outputs
at some 30A or so.

I have not checked the voltage ratings at the secondary
stage, but I know that the 400V front-end can go to 420V
when the load is too light, that is why it uses 450V caps.

Success,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: CWater@...    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: cor_van_de_water@...
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On
Behalf Of Collin Kidder
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 2:35 AM
To: ev@...
Subject: [EVDL] DC battery charger

I've got a car with lithium ion batteries in a 370V pack. I've got a DC
converter to go from that to 13.5V for the normal car stuff. I'd like to
also put a 12V battery in as well to allow for better surge support,
running acc while the car is off, etc. My DC/DC converter is not meant
to be used as a battery charger. If I never let the 12V battery get very
low I could possibly cheat and just send 13.5V to the battery and let it
charge. But if the battery ever gets low it would overload the DC
converter. So, is there a good option (and hopefully cheap) option to
add a DC powered battery charger? (12V output. Amp output doesn't need
to be very high)

Part of the trouble is that 370V is quite high. Not very many DC
converters or 12V battery chargers support that sort of input.

I have thought about using diodes and a 6ohm power resistor to make a
sort of makeshift 2A charger and source isolation circuit. It'd be crude
but I think it's workable with only 2 power diodes and one power
resistor. Is there any reason such a simple solution to the problem
would be undesirable? I could draw something up real quick in a
schematic editor if it would help to visualize what I'm thinking of
doing here.

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/ Usage guidelines:
http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev




------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 14:19:59 -0800
From: "Cor van de Water" <CWater@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Alternator instead of DC to DC converter?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <1E3D081C7B502B4A988F643E604CF963932AF2@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Why did your DC/DC die?


Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: CWater@...    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: cor_van_de_water@...
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On
Behalf Of Douglas A. Stansfield
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 5:10 AM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'; ev-bounces@...
Subject: [EVDL] Alternator instead of DC to DC converter?

Dear EV enthusiasts,



I have put two Kelly DC to DC converters in my EV and the second one has
now stopped charging my accessories battery and I am considering just
installing
this low cost Alternator off the motor with a pulley instead.    Anybody
have any reason to not do this and try again with a different DC/DC
converter?  I can drive around in the mean time with a fully charged
Deep Cycle but that approach spooks me at night as I have had the
Accessory battery die at night before and don't like that feeling at
all.  I live in the country and there are NO street lights to start
trying to figure out the issue.



Since then, I have installed a Volt meter gauge strictly for the
Accessory battery.  Just in case it starts to look like it is going to
go down when the brake pedal is depressed, I know I don't have much time
left which happened tonight and thus figured out the DC/DC converter is
toast again.



As always, appreciate the input ahead of time.



Doug Stansfield

www.EVAlbum.com/1973





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------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 16:34:03 -0800
From: cowtown@...
Subject: [EVDL] Scooter controller question
To: ev@...
Message-ID:
	 <20091114163403.mu6r8vn38k0sscs8-pbjgbja@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes";
	 format="flowed"

I use a 3kw scooter around town, and was wondering how hard would it
be to swap out the controller; it has 3 power wires and 5 thin control
wires coming from its hubmotor - is this a standard setup for most
BLDC motors and could I use another company's controller?

Think more
     Talk less
        Become wise



------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 20:13:27 -0700
From: Dave Hymers <dhymers@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost
To: jerryd@..., Electric Vehicle Discussion List
	 <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <ec811c3f0911141913w1f16c959sdb9db4cfafab07e1@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

I think we all hope they can really pull it off and the market responds
well.
good luck nissan, I know if I was currently buying this would be top of my
list.
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Message: 12
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 11:35:12 +0900
From: "Matt Lacey" <mc.lacey@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High Voltage Reversing Ideas?
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <00db01ca659c$430c17d0$0401a8c0@mattlaptop2>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

The voltage ratings on the albrights shouldn't matter too much, as they are
switching at no load.
Just make sure you use the hairball to do the switching.

If you are really worried, you could use a couple of EV200s

Matt

-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
Of ratliffgrp@...
Sent: Sunday, 15 November 2009 1:40 AM
To: ev@...
Subject: [EVDL] High Voltage Reversing Ideas?

Hello All,

I have a question for those with experience in Higher Voltage vehicles.  I
am building a quick custom 3-Wheeler and have a Zilla 1kHV controller on
hand to push it around with.  I want to use a Pack Voltage of around 288
Volts and run that into TWO D&D ES-31C Motors, mechanically coupled
together.  In effect, they would each get 144 volts, which is within their
rated limits. My question is this:  What would be the safest and most
reliable way to enable electrically reversing these motors, given the Higher
Pack Voltage?  A pack voltage approaching 300 volts would greatly exceed the
ratings on a set of Albright reversing contactors.  May I solicit ideas from
you folks?

THANKS!

David R.
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------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 21:28:03 -0800
From: "Roland Wiench" <ev_7@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controller waterproofness
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <BLU144-DS133F61317F983EF6106E0BEA60@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"




----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Wood" <ajwood@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 7:34 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Controller waterproofness


> How waterproof are Synkromotive controllers and Zivan DC converters
>
> Is in the engine compartment dry enough for them?
>
> Regards
> Andrew
>
> Sent from iPhone
>
Hello Andrew,

What I did was to make the motor compartment seal like a trunk in the car.
You will note the trunk weather stripping is push over a tab which keeps the
water in a gutter which runs out the back.

Using this same type of method on the hood, I have the water run in the
gutter out the front.  I only had to put this weather strip on the sides.
The rear below the windshield has a weather strip.

Installing this type of weather strip in the motor compartment, you do not
have have these steel tabs.  I fasten the weather strip to inner fender
flange by first placing a strip of 3M automotive attachment tape, the same
type that is use to fasten molding and emblems. This is the only tape that
will hold this weather striping in place under the pressure of the hood.

I got my weather stripping from J.C. Whitney or jcwhitney.com  that is a
molded sponge rubber  No. WZ818859  which is 16-1/2 foot long for $18.99. It
angle shape so it folds down with light pressure on the hood.

After installing this weather strip, I also install a bead of GE Silicone
rubber which is water proof and mold resistance against the base of the
weather strip and attachment tape.

I have my controller mounted up high just under the hood at the rear center
in a enclosure which I had a positive air pressure by a blower fan. See
http://go-ev.net/pics/017.html

Click through the image # and you can barely see the weather striping if you
enlarge the photos.

Roland



------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 23:33:25 -0500
From: Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controller waterproofness
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <2b4886ce0911142033j28c26064yf5421c6a0169ee17@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Andrew Wood <ajwood@...> wrote:

> How waterproof are Synkromotive controllers and Zivan DC converters
>
> Is in the engine compartment dry enough for them?
>
> Regards
> Andrew
> =============it depends upon the vehicle...==========================
>
Andrew,  Yours is a question many ask.  And there are several "Correct"
answers, (Sometimes one is mine.) The DRIEST location in the engine bay, is
high as possible, in the center near the "Cabin" and that is where many
place them. However the fender liners must be in place and the hood must
have good gasketing to keep rain out.  Also closing the "Grille" opening,
and adding an air dam below the front bumper, and enclosing the vehicle
bottom for "Streamlining" will reduce road spray under the hood. The DC
Series Motor with Brushes can survive surprisingly well being "Dunked" while
running, For a short time in salt water, (But rinse it out asap
to minimize corrosion.And don't forget water conducts well unless extremely
pure so heavy insulated gloves, clamp the hose in place spin the motor
REASONABLY, shut down and remove hose. ) and do reasonably in clear "Fresh"
water even to driving across a "Ford" if you don't have a bridge across the
creek, but be careful of silty water as the grit will grind away the
brushes. If you drive thru water often lubricate more often, grease keeps
water out of bearings. But transmissions and differentials are often damaged
in 18 inch deep flood waters...(That is why Jeep runs an extended
differential vent up to a higher location, not just the top of the pumpkin.)
Some builders put controllers and DC/DC units in watertight boxes
but cooling must be considered and solved !

Regards,
     Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
        Phone (863) 289 - 0690
"Mentoring, Small Group Instruction,
and Hands-On training
for the EV Technicians:
Building, Converting, Repairing,
and Servicing the
Electric Vehicles of Today,
and the Future."
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Message: 15
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 22:43:29 -0600
From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High Voltage Reversing Ideas?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4AFF86F1.4090001@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

ratliffgrp@... wrote:
> I want to use a Pack Voltage of around 288 Volts and run that into TWO D&D
ES-31C Motors,
> mechanically coupled together.  In effect, they would each get 144
> volts, which is within their rated limits.

So you're planning on wiring the motors permanently in series?

The Zilla is set up to make it easy to use a series/parallel contactor,
so the motors can be connected in series for maximum torque, or in
parallel for maximum speed. This is a very useful form of electric
"transmission".

> What would be the safest and most reliable way to enable electrically
> reversing these motors, given the Higher Pack Voltage? A pack
> voltage approaching 300 volts would greatly exceed the ratings on a
> set of Albright reversing contactors.

Contactors specify the maximum voltage they can *interrupt*. The
breakdown voltage of an open contact is considerably higher. As long as
you guarantee that the contactor will never break current, you can use
it at a much higher voltage.

The Zilla controllers are routinely used with Albright contactors for
reversing and series/parallel switching. The Zilla operating logic
guarantees that they won't switch under load.

--
Lee A. Hart  | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N  | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen



------------------------------

Message: 16
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 21:10:04 -0800 (PST)
From: Otmar <Otlist09@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] How much height above the SE60 with elithion BMS
	 to reserve?
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <1258261804615-621685.post@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii



Peter C. Thompson wrote:
>
> Hi Folks,
>
> I need to trim down my battery boxes to better fit inside my trunks
> (porsche 914) - how much space do I need to keep above my SE60 batteries
> when using the Elithion BMS?  I don't have the BMS yet, is why I'm
> asking.  I hope all I need is 1 inch, as that would be perfect.  :)
> (The interconnects will be flat braided copper cable, so the most that
> will need is 1/2 inch).
>
> Thanks in advance,
>     Peter
>
>
You don't need much height, You can see a picture of the boards here:
http://liionbms.com/php/prismatic_cell_boards.php
I have some on a set of cells here. 1" clearance is just enough for
connecting the 2/0 cable and the boards are well below that.

-----
-Otmar-

914 EV, California Poppy, Zilla research vehicle.
http://evcl.com/914/

The Zilla factory.
http://www.evcomponents.com/

Zilla Support is still at:
http://cafeelectric.com/Ssupport.php
--
View this message in context:
http://n4.nabble.com/How-much-height-above-the-SE60-with-elithion-BMS-to-reserve\
-tp621670p621685.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.



------------------------------

Message: 17
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 00:25:30 -0500
From: Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High Voltage Reversing Ideas?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <2b4886ce0911142125h4711985eyb50d5e7ed65e0b54@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 11:39 AM, <ratliffgrp@...> wrote:

> Hello All,
>
> I have a question for those with experience in Higher Voltage vehicles.  I
> am building a quick custom 3-Wheeler and have a Zilla 1kHV controller on
> hand to push it around with.  I want to use a Pack Voltage of around 288
> Volts and run that into TWO D&D ES-31C Motors, mechanically coupled
> together.  In effect, they would each get 144 volts, which is within their
> rated limits. My question is this:  What would be the safest and most
> reliable way to enable electrically reversing these motors, given the Higher
> Pack Voltage?  A pack voltage approaching 300 volts would greatly exceed the
> ratings on a set of Albright reversing contactors.  May I solicit ideas from
> you folks?
>
> THANKS!
>
> David R.
> =================Sounds COOL, But,==================================
>
David, two dc series motors in series do not run as well as the same motors
in parallel. The pulsing from the armature  thru the brushes is not
perfectly constant so they sometimes limit each other.

I have seen a two motor system with the motors tied
together mechanically but the two motors separately controlled. You would
use a 144 V. pack with two banks paralleled. for the same total capacity.
use the Zilla to control one motor and a relay/contactor controller to
operate the other (Like Nitrous Oxide) for a 100% BOOST when you wanted.
  Then just put the reverse on the Zilla. If you want the twin motors for
"Style" I understand, otherwise one bigger motor is simpler and more
efficient
Regards.
     Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
        Phone (863) 289 - 0690
"Mentoring, Small Group Instruction,
and Hands-On training
for the EV Technicians:
Building, Converting, Repairing,
and Servicing the
Electric Vehicles of Today,
and the Future."
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------------------------------

Message: 18
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 22:28:10 -0800
From: David Nelson <gizmoev@...>
Subject: [EVDL] Heater relay for 70V, 5A?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <c5b2f1dc0911142228l7798ebcds39268c80576920d@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I'm installing a set of heater coils in my Gizmo for defrosting the
lexan windshield. I created it from the nicrome wire from a portable
floor heater. I'm setting it up for about 3A at 50V but will be
installing a lithium pack soon and will have a slightly higher
voltage. At 70V I expect a max of about 4.5A. Specifically I'm
designing the element with 16 ohms resistance. Since I'm running pack
voltage to the dash I will put a fuse near the beginning of the + line
at the battery pack and figure I need a 5A fuse. I also figure I
should install a relay near the battery pack so I only have pack
voltage in the dash when the heater is on.

My main question is where can I get a relay with a 12V coil that can
handle this application? Also, what gauge of wire should I run for the
high voltage lines?

--
David D. Nelson
http://evalbum.com/1328



------------------------------

Message: 19
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 15:17:11 +0900
From: "Matt Lacey" <mc.lacey@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Scooter controller question
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <010401ca65bb$443c1b40$0401a8c0@mattlaptop2>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

3 power and 5 signal are standard for BLDC.

Kelly controllers will work fine.

At 3kw, I assume pack voltage is 48v or higher?
Get at least a 150A unit.
http://www.newkellycontroller.com/product_info.php?cPath=23_45&products_id=5
5

Matt


-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
Of cowtown@...
Sent: Sunday, 15 November 2009 9:34 AM
To: ev@...
Subject: [EVDL] Scooter controller question

I use a 3kw scooter around town, and was wondering how hard would it be to
swap out the controller; it has 3 power wires and 5 thin control wires
coming from its hubmotor - is this a standard setup for most BLDC motors and
could I use another company's controller?

Think more
     Talk less
        Become wise

_______________________________________________
General support: http://evdl.org/help/
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------------------------------

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For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



End of EV Digest, Vol 28, Issue 20
**********************************

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (1)
#37636 From: ev-request@...
Date: Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:00 pm
Subject: EV Digest, Vol 28, Issue 21 		ev-request@...
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Today's Topics:

    1. Re: How much height above the SE60 with elithion BMS to
       reserve? (Willie McKemie)
    2. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost (Willie McKemie)
    3. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost (jerryd)
    4. Re: Heater relay for 70V, 5A? (John G. Lussmyer)
    5. Re: Scooter controller question (rodhower@...)
    6. Re: Sebring-Vanguard City car for sale (near me)
       (Cor van de Water)
    7. Re: Alternator instead of DC to DC converter?
       (Douglas A. Stansfield)
    8. A123 ebay update (m gol)
    9. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost (Richard Furniss)
   10. Re: Heater relay for 70V, 5A? (Lee Hart)
   11. Re: High Voltage Reversing Ideas? (Lawrence Rhodes)
   12. My very good experience with Soneil & BB batteries. No
       regulators. (Lawrence Rhodes)
   13. Re: Scooter controller question (rodhower@...)
   14. Re: High Voltage Reversing Ideas? (Morgan LaMoore)
   15. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost (Dennis Miles)
   16. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost (Richard Furniss)
   17.  Selling my Lead acid batteries (Rob Trahms)
   18. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place - Business
       model discussion... (Douglas A. Stansfield)
   19. Scooter controller question (cowtown@...)
   20. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost (Joseph Ashwood)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 04:43:02 -0600
From: Willie McKemie <mckemie@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] How much height above the SE60 with elithion BMS
	 to reserve?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <20091115104302.GD24144@c25>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 08:27:43AM -0800, Peter C. Thompson wrote:

> I need to trim down my battery boxes to better fit inside my trunks
> (porsche 914) - how much space do I need to keep above my SE60 batteries
> when using the Elithion BMS?  I don't have the BMS yet, is why I'm
> asking.  I hope all I need is 1 inch, as that would be perfect.  :)
> (The interconnects will be flat braided copper cable, so the most that
> will need is 1/2 inch).

I have some un-installed cell boards.  It looks like they need very
slightly less than 1/2" of space above the tops of the cells.  I
believe 5/8" would easily do it.  Mine are cell boards for TS-LPF260s
but it looks like all cell boards the same except for connectors.

--
Willie, ONWARD!  Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime  700 days 23 hours 36 minutes



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 05:29:50 -0600
From: Willie McKemie <mckemie@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <20091115112950.GF24144@c25>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 02:50:21PM -0500, jerryd wrote:
>
>
>               Hi All,
>
>                  Nissan is going to price the Leaf EV about
> the same as an ICE!!

That's probably with a rented battery.

--
Willie, ONWARD!  Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime  701 days 29 min minutes



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 10:53:29 -0500
From: "jerryd" <jerryd@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost
To: dhymers@..., jerryd@..., Electric Vehicle Discussion List
	 <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4b0023f9.e6.519b.884950140@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"



              Hi Dave and All,

                   I've been saying for yrs there is no
reason EV's need to cost more than ICE's.  They are simple
with far less parts as the motor weighs far less and only
has 3 moving parts, no transmission needed, the controller,
charger are cheap in quantity and batteries are paid for by
the tax credit. GM and I expect others are buying Lithium
batteries for $.30/wthr or less which is under seal lead
battery costs.
                   With battery swapping as A Better Place is
doing, the battery cost, risk is by them with you just
paying a by mile charge for battery and electricity with
unlimited range, cost shouldn't be any more than an ICE and
less fuel cost including battery than an ICE.
                   I think these will be hot sellers  by both
the public and gov, utility, other fleets so get your order
in early. A Better Place already ordered 100k of them to
sell where they will have swapping/charging stations.
                   Ford too will have the Focus EV ready for
when gas hits $4-5/gal next yr and since it's based on the
new lightweight Focus glider, it can be ramped up fast too
to meet the demand when gas goes up. In 2 yrs they will have
multiple Plug in hybrids, EV's like the Transit Van coming
out next yr, all based on production chassis that can easily
be switched from ICE to EV drive.
                   All the other big car companies can't ramp
up  as they are just doing prototype production lines of few
EV's because they don't want to produce them that won't be
able to meet demand for 3-4 yrs.
                    Those that invest in stock I think Nissan
and Ford are good bets as they are preparing for the future
in a smart way.
                    Has anyone else noticed the Jay Leno's
racing Focus EV on his show is getting faster as the battery
pack gets used?

                                       Jerry Dycus


----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Dave Hymers <dhymers@...>
To: jerryd@..., Electric Vehicle Discussion List
<ev@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 20:13:27 -0700

>I think we all hope they can really pull it off and the
>market responds well.
>good luck nissan, I know if I was currently buying this
>would be top of my list.
>



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 07:16:04 -0800
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <Cougar@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heater relay for 70V, 5A?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B001B34.2050108@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

David Nelson wrote:
> My main question is where can I get a relay with a 12V coil that can
> handle this application? Also, what gauge of wire should I run for the
> high voltage lines?
>

http://casadelgato.com/KUEP-3D55-12
cost is $5 + $10 shipping. (I use flat rate shipping, so buy 2 or 3 for
the same shipping.)

--
--
John G. Lussmyer   mailto:Cougar@...
Electric Vehicle Battery Monitoring Systems, http://www.CasaDelGato.com




------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 08:48:56 -0800 (PST)
From: rodhower@...
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Scooter controller question
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <887417.66930.qm@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

That is standard setup for a BLDC, however you need to make sure you know the
electrical spacing of the hall devices (either 60 or 120 degrees).
Each one has it's own commutation table,
;forward states 60 degree
;  111 ANB ;PWM A UPPER, B LOWER 100% ON
;  110 ANC ;PWM A UPPER, C LOWER 100% ON
;  100 BNC ;PWM B UPPER, C LOWER 100% ON
;  000 BNA ;PWM B UPPER, A LOWER 100% ON
;  001 CNA ;PWM C UPPER, A LOWER 100% ON
;  011 CNB ;PWM C UPPER, B LOWER 100% ON
120 Degree
; 0 101 ANB ;PWM A UPPER, B LOWER 100% ON
; 1 100 ANC ;PWM A UPPER, C LOWER 100% ON
; 2 110 BNC ;PWM B UPPER, C LOWER 100% ON
; 3 010 BNA ;PWM B UPPER, A LOWER 100% ON
; 4 011 CNA ;PWM C UPPER, A LOWER 100% ON
; 5 001 CNB ;PWM C UPPER, B LOWER 100% ON

For more information see page 10 of,
http://www.onsemi.com/pub_link/Collateral/MC33035-D.PDF
Two of the wires are power and ground for the halls, usuall 5V to 15V.
The other 3 wires are open collector transistors from the halls.
You can find out the spacing by applying 5V to the power wires and connecting a
10k pull up resistor to the hall output (pulled up to 5V).
You can look at each output with a multimeter and slowly spin the motor (moving
on a a few degrees at a time).  Record the state of each hall and construct a
table.  It's quite obvious it's 60 degree spacing if all of the halls are 000 or
111.

Testing with a new control.
Don't use the batteries, use a current limited power supply that is the same
voltage as the batteries.  You should be able to use one with 5A or less current
limit.
Connect the motor phases to the control and the hall supply and halls.
Record each hall output wire position and attempt to run the motor.
If it's the incorrect hall sequence the motor will either not turn or draw
excessive current.  There are six possible combination's for the hall outputs. 
One combination should spin the motor at relatively low current.
It's best to do this test with the motor not connected to anything.
Good luck!
Rod


--- On Sat, 11/14/09, cowtown@... <cowtown@...> wrote:

> From: cowtown@... <cowtown@...>
> Subject: [EVDL] Scooter controller question
> To: ev@...
> Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 7:34 PM
> I use a 3kw scooter around town, and
> was wondering how hard would it?
> be to swap out the controller; it has 3 power wires and 5
> thin control?
> wires coming from its hubmotor - is this a standard setup
> for most?
> BLDC motors and could I use another company's controller?
>
> Think more
> ? ? Talk less
> ? ? ???Become wise
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 09:02:25 -0800
From: "Cor van de Water" <CWater@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sebring-Vanguard City car for sale (near me)
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <1E3D081C7B502B4A988F643E604CF963932B13@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I cannot think of a better way to advertise an EV ;-)


Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: CWater@...    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: cor_van_de_water@...
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On
Behalf Of Mark Hanson
Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 2:04 AM
To: ev@...
Subject: [EVDL] Sebring-Vanguard City car for sale (near me)








  Here's a Sebring Vanguard s**tty car for sale.  I had a yellow one many
moons ago, went slow was hard to stop & steer but other than that it was
ok :-)



http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1903463942
07&ih=009&category=6472&_trksid=p4506.m7&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26itu%3DUC
I%26otn%3D3%26ps%3D6

have a renewable energy day,
Mark in roanoke, VA

_________________________________________________________________
Windows 7: Unclutter your desktop.
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9690331&ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:e
n-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009
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http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 12:53:50 -0500
From: "Douglas A. Stansfield" <Doug@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Alternator instead of DC to DC converter?
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <003101ca661c$96dcf160$c496d420$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Cor,

Who knows?  Opening up the box shows it is a big block of Epoxy.  Maybe it
overhead.  Maybe the soldering was good but who could tell with Epoxy all
over it.  Maybe both of them just had poor quality components in them?  I
can't be sure which one of these is the issue but I can't tell you for sure
that they both stopped working after about 2 months of use.  Therefore, if
you need a short term DC/DC converter, please go ahead and purchase one.  If
you want one that lasts longer than that, I would recommend another brand or
the alternator approach.  I really want to do the Alternator approach.  Once
I get around to it and test it, I will let you know how it is working out.

Doug
www.EVAlbum.com/1973

-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
Of Cor van de Water
Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 5:20 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Alternator instead of DC to DC converter?

Why did your DC/DC die?


Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: CWater@...    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: cor_van_de_water@...
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On
Behalf Of Douglas A. Stansfield
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 5:10 AM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'; ev-bounces@...
Subject: [EVDL] Alternator instead of DC to DC converter?

Dear EV enthusiasts,



I have put two Kelly DC to DC converters in my EV and the second one has
now stopped charging my accessories battery and I am considering just
installing
this low cost Alternator off the motor with a pulley instead.    Anybody
have any reason to not do this and try again with a different DC/DC
converter?  I can drive around in the mean time with a fully charged
Deep Cycle but that approach spooks me at night as I have had the
Accessory battery die at night before and don't like that feeling at
all.  I live in the country and there are NO street lights to start
trying to figure out the issue.



Since then, I have installed a Volt meter gauge strictly for the
Accessory battery.  Just in case it starts to look like it is going to
go down when the brake pedal is depressed, I know I don't have much time
left which happened tonight and thus figured out the DC/DC converter is
toast again.



As always, appreciate the input ahead of time.



Doug Stansfield

www.EVAlbum.com/1973





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------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 09:12:47 -0900
From: m gol <gol.m86@...>
Subject: [EVDL] A123 ebay update
To: ev@...
Message-ID:
	 <1f1ce8720911151012q33b7f721u29364edcfd37b0c1@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

There are several people selling a123 batteries on ebay.

There is no mention of A vs. B, but some are selling ones in a white
"paper-looking" case with and without a blue strip, and some are selling
green ones.

Some are also saying they'have used ones with one tab, but not another tab.

Can anyone shed some light on all this?
Also, is there another forum, where there's more discussion going on?

Thanks,
Mike
Golub
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Message: 9
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 08:37:34 -0800
From: "Richard Furniss" <rfurniss1@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <C5C527FD39DE4906849765E38CAE088E@richard01>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Dave Hymers wrote;
I think we all hope they can really pull it off and the market responds
well.
good luck nissan, I know if I was currently buying this would be top of my
list.


Remember not so long ago when we thought that we would "never" see a major OEM
EV mass-produced in our lifetime. It was the same story with advanced batteries
and now we have LiFePo4, I think things will get really exciting when these
vehicles and batteries start ending up in the auto recycles where we can buy
used EV parts and start making some wild stuff.

The next 10 years WILL be exciting, but what will we do when EVs become common
place?



Have a renewable sustainable energy day


Richard Furniss
Las Vegas NV
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Message: 10
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 13:15:58 -0600
From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heater relay for 70V, 5A?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>, "Lussmyer,
	 John" <Cougar@...>
Message-ID: <4B00536E.2010702@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

David Nelson wrote:
> I'm installing a set of heater coils in my Gizmo for defrosting the
> lexan windshield. about 3A at 50V... At 70V I about 4.5A. I figure I need a 5A
fuse.

Use a fuse of about double the current you actually expect it to carry
on a continuous basis. Otherwise, you'll have problems with nuisance
blowing (fails after working a year or two).

> I also figure I should install a relay near the battery pack so I only
> have pack voltage in the dash when the heater is on.

You can; but at 48vdc, a double-pole toggle switch (or a 3-pole toggle
switch at 72vdc) with the poles wired in series will also work. The
individual poles on a "120vac" switch are also good for about 30vdc, so
2 in series is 60vdc, or 3 in series for 90vdc.

> My main question is where can I get a relay with a 12V coil that can
> handle this application?

The Potter & Brumfield KUEP or PRD series are the usual choices. The PRD
is higher current, but the KUEP should be fine in your application.

John Lussmyer <Cougar@...> had some KUEP relays at a good
price; check with him to see if he has any left.

  > Also, what gauge of wire should I run for the
  > high voltage lines?

Wire it exactly as if it were a 120vac circuit. That means use
double-insulated wiring (the individual wires are insulated, plus they
have a second layer of insulation over them. Use stranded wire, because
it's in a vehicle where it's likely to be flexed. Put any switches,
fuses, relays etc. in a noncombustible box (look for UL listed
enclosures). There should be no way to touch any "live" parts of it,
even on purpose.
--
Lee A. Hart  | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N  | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen



------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 12:53:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Lawrence Rhodes <primobassoon@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High Voltage Reversing Ideas?
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <631372.55927.qm@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Since the zilla hairball can do series parallel switching it should be no
problem and you could even parallel them if you dared.  I'd be mighty quick.  I
think the zilla also allows reversing built in but I'm not sure.  You might need
reversing contactors which might be pricey at that voltage.  Lawrence Rhodes....


From: ratliffgrp@...
Subject: [EVDL] High Voltage Reversing Ideas?
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <8CC33603984C77E-7C8-3C8D@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hello All,

I have a question for those with experience in Higher Voltage vehicles.  I am
building a quick custom 3-Wheeler and have a Zilla 1kHV controller on hand to
push it around with.  I want to use a Pack Voltage of around 288 Volts and run
that into TWO D&D ES-31C Motors, mechanically coupled together.  In effect, they
would each get 144 volts, which is within their rated limits. My question is
this:  What would be the safest and most reliable way to enable electrically
reversing these motors, given the Higher Pack Voltage?  A pack voltage
approaching 300 volts would greatly exceed the ratings on a set of Albright
reversing contactors.  May I solicit ideas from you folks?

THANKS!

David R.



------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 13:06:18 -0800 (PST)
From: Lawrence Rhodes <primobassoon@...>
Subject: [EVDL] My very good experience with Soneil & BB batteries. No
	 regulators.
To: ev@...
Cc: Zappylist <zappy@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <383271.14467.qm@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

I owned a Lepton Scooter for a few years.  It had 4 50ah BB batteries sold by
Electric Motor Sport.  The Soneil charger is the highest power 48v charger
Soneil sells.  When fully charged they would be 13.4vdc roughly.  They have
always registered 50 on the Lepton computer for range.  They have carried my 240
pound body up many a San Francisco Hill. A few times my daughter too.  About 400
pounds.   After the test drive and sale we measured the battery voltage.  All
batteries were 13.26. On the button.  I have had the batteries two years to
three years.  1200 miles.  On charge always when not running the Lepton.  I hope
my experience gives some data as to how to treat a battery pack.   My always on
charge approach with no regulators on sealed batteries worked for me.  However I
really never took the batteries under maybe 51vdc.  The bike had very good
range.  I didn't take it more than about 12 miles at any one time but did
subject it to high current draws
  on a few really steep hills.  Lawrence Rhodes....



------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 13:30:54 -0800 (PST)
From: rodhower@...
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Scooter controller question
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <929848.68370.qm@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

That is standard setup for a BLDC, however you need to make sure you know the
electrical spacing of the hall devices (either 60 or 120 degrees).
Each one has it's own commutation table,
;forward states 60 degree
;        111    ANB    ;PWM A UPPER, B LOWER 100% ON
;        110 ANC ;PWM A UPPER, C LOWER 100% ON
;        100    BNC ;PWM B UPPER, C LOWER 100% ON
;        000    BNA ;PWM B UPPER, A LOWER 100% ON
;        001 CNA ;PWM C UPPER, A LOWER 100% ON
;        011 CNB ;PWM C UPPER, B LOWER 100% ON
120 Degree
;    0    101    ANB    ;PWM A UPPER, B LOWER 100% ON
;    1    100 ANC ;PWM A UPPER, C LOWER 100% ON
;    2    110    BNC ;PWM B UPPER, C LOWER 100% ON
;    3    010    BNA ;PWM B UPPER, A LOWER 100% ON
;    4    011 CNA ;PWM C UPPER, A LOWER 100% ON
;    5    001 CNB ;PWM C UPPER, B LOWER 100% ON

For more information see page 10 of,
http://www.onsemi.com/pub_link/Collateral/MC33035-D.PDF
Two of the wires are power and ground for the halls, usuall 5V to 15V.
The other 3 wires are open collector transistors from the halls.
You can find out the spacing by applying 5V to the power wires and connecting a
10k pull up resistor to the hall output (pulled up to 5V).
You can look at each output with a multimeter and slowly spin the motor (moving
on a a few degrees at a time).  Record the state of each hall and construct a
table.  It's quite obvious it's 60 degree spacing if all of the halls are 000 or
111.

Testing with a new control.
Don't use the batteries, use a current limited power supply that is the same
voltage as the batteries.  You should be able to use one with 5A or less current
limit.
Connect the motor phases to the control and the hall supply and halls.
Record each hall output wire position and attempt to run the motor.
If it's the incorrect hall sequence the motor will either not turn or draw
excessive current.  There are six possible combination's for the hall outputs. 
One combination should spin the motor at relatively low current.
It's best to do this test with the motor not connected to anything.
Good luck!
Rod

> --- On Sat, 11/14/09, cowtown@...
> <cowtown@...>
> wrote:
>
> > From: cowtown@...
> <cowtown@...>
> > Subject: [EVDL] Scooter controller question
> > To: ev@...
> > Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 7:34 PM
> > I use a 3kw scooter around town, and
> > was wondering how hard would it?
> > be to swap out the controller; it has 3 power wires
> and 5
> > thin control?
> > wires coming from its hubmotor - is this a standard
> setup
> > for most?
> > BLDC motors and could I use another company's
> controller?
> >
> > Think more
> > ? ? Talk less
> > ? ? ???Become wise
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> > Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> > Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> > Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> >
>



------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 16:11:26 -0600
From: Morgan LaMoore <morganl@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High Voltage Reversing Ideas?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <4230c7190911151411k3774d59av15bcd8ad1f7c528c@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Hi,

How much current do you plan to draw from your batteries?

If you want to push the limits of your batteries enough that you see
significant voltage sag, you will get less than 144V per motor. In
that case, you may want to use series/parallel contactors and let the
Zilla software limit the maximum voltage; this will get you better
power while the batteries are sagging.

-Morgan LaMoore

On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 10:39 AM,  <ratliffgrp@...> wrote:
> Hello All,
>
> I have a question for those with experience in Higher Voltage vehicles. ?I am
building a quick custom 3-Wheeler and have a Zilla 1kHV controller on hand to
push it around with. ?I want to use a Pack Voltage of around 288 Volts and run
that into TWO D&D ES-31C Motors, mechanically coupled together. ?In effect, they
would each get 144 volts, which is within their rated limits. My question is
this: ?What would be the safest and most reliable way to enable electrically
reversing these motors, given the Higher Pack Voltage? ?A pack voltage
approaching 300 volts would greatly exceed the ratings on a set of Albright
reversing contactors. ?May I solicit ideas from you folks?
>
> THANKS!
>
> David R.
> -------------- next part --------------
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> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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>



------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 18:05:58 -0500
From: Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost
To: jerryd@..., Electric Vehicle Discussion List
	 <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <2b4886ce0911151505p2a86dcc7sf8289caf11d13d05@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 10:53 AM, jerryd <jerryd@...> wrote:

>
>
>             Hi Dave and All,
>
>                  I've been saying for yrs there is no
> reason EV's need to cost more than ICE's.  They are simple
> with far less parts as the motor weighs far less and only
> has 3 moving parts, no transmission needed, the controller,
> charger are cheap in quantity and batteries are paid for by
> the tax credit. GM and I expect others are buying Lithium
> batteries for $.30/wthr or less which is under seal lead
> battery costs.
>                  With battery swapping as A Better Place is
> doing, the battery cost, risk is by them with you just
> paying a by mile charge for battery and electricity with
> unlimited range, cost shouldn't be any more than an ICE and
> less fuel cost including battery than an ICE.
>                  I think these will be hot sellers  by both
> the public and gov, utility, other fleets so get your order
> in early. A Better Place already ordered 100k of them to
> sell where they will have swapping/charging stations.
>                  Ford too will have the Focus EV ready for
> when gas hits $4-5/gal next yr and since it's based on the
> new lightweight Focus glider, it can be ramped up fast too
> to meet the demand when gas goes up. In 2 yrs they will have
> multiple Plug in hybrids, EV's like the Transit Van coming
> out next yr, all based on production chassis that can easily
> be switched from ICE to EV drive.
>                  All the other big car companies can't ramp
> up  as they are just doing prototype production lines of few
> EV's because they don't want to produce them that won't be
> able to meet demand for 3-4 yrs.
>                   Those that invest in stock I think Nissan
> and Ford are good bets as they are preparing for the future
> in a smart way.
>                   Has anyone else noticed the Jay Leno's
> racing Focus EV on his show is getting faster as the battery
> pack gets used?
>
>                                      Jerry Dycus
>
>
> ----- Original Message Follows -----
> From: Dave Hymers <dhymers@...>
> To: jerryd@..., Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> <ev@...>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost
> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 20:13:27 -0700
>
> >I think we all hope they can really pull it off and the
> >market responds well.
> >good luck nissan, I know if I was currently buying this
> >would be top of my list.
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> =======================consider the possibilities=====================
>
Hi Jerry, and others,  I was driving thru downtown and upon seeing a shop I
have noticed before who is obviously doing well, SOMETHING CLICKED,  That
very successful business RENTS Wheels and sells tires to fit The really
Fancy 18 to 26 inch diameter rims which fit the thin but wide tires popular
today. And I said to myself,"Why just let car dealers rent the batteries for
the new EVs?" We don't limit only Dealers to oil changes or brake work. We
need someone to start up "RENT YOUR PACK" (Or other suitable name...) for EV
batteries, No money down, just a small "Administrative fee" and NEW
batteries are installed in your EV. Of course a GOOD "BMS" must be included
and a lien on the auto title to secure the contract then the EV Owner only
pays a small rent monthly and after a GUARANTEED period  during which the
battery pack is warranted to provide good service, then the lien is lifted
from the title and no more rental payments made, after that you can continue
to use the pack for the remaining life and eventually buy a new pack or rent
again. If you want to sell the EV during the rental time, a contract clause
would stipulate paying off the pack or transferring the lease. Many other
details would need to be addressed for which I suggest contacting
an attorney and a good accountant.  But for the Entrepreneur, this might be
the business of a lifetime, and the first one successful will make a great
model for Franchising.
Do you need an EV related Career??    And HEY you EV dealers of batteries
add to your business by eliminating "Sticker Shock" for a new Pack of
Lithium Phosphates...
This is one of the many types of Support Businesses for EVs the world will
need and SOON!

Regards,
      Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
        Phone (863) 289 - 0690
"Mentoring, Small Group Instruction,
and Hands-On training
for the EV Technicians:
Building, Converting, Repairing,
and Servicing the
Electric Vehicles of Today,
and the Future."
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Message: 16
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 15:18:36 -0800
From: "Richard Furniss" <rfurniss1@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost
To: "EV List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <20FB90A9F03D426EACEC4B6FF0B2729F@richard01>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Dave Hymers wrote:
I think we all hope they can really pull it off and the market responds
well.
good luck nissan, I know if I was currently buying this would be top of my
list.

Remember not so long ago when we thought that we would "never" see a major OEM
EV mass-produced in our lifetime. It was the same story with advanced batteries
and now we have LiFePo4, I think things will get really exciting when these
vehicles and batteries start ending up in the auto recycles where we can buy
used EV parts and start making some wild stuff.

The next 10 years WILL be exciting, but what will we do when EVs become common
place?
-------------- next part --------------
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------------------------------

Message: 17
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 15:42:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Rob Trahms <rtrahms@...>
Subject: [EVDL]  Selling my Lead acid batteries
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <1258328557635-621928.post@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii



Hi all -

I am upgrading my conversion to lithium batteries, and am looking for a new
home for my existing US125XCs.
They are about a year old, and have been well cared for.  I am basically
selling them for half-price, and am including a hydrometer and filler as a
bonus.  If you know of anyone that is interested, point them to the
craigslist ad below:

http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/pts/1465993234.html

Thanks!
Rob
--
View this message in context:
http://n4.nabble.com/Selling-my-Lead-acid-batteries-tp621928p621928.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.



------------------------------

Message: 18
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 19:50:47 -0500
From: "Douglas A. Stansfield" <Doug@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
	 Business model discussion...
To: <jerryd@...>, "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'"
	 <ev@...>
Message-ID: <006501ca6656$d67d58c0$83780a40$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dear Jerry,

You bring up Better Place and the business model they have about pricing on
a per mile basis.  I currently dislike the Better Place business model as
they will be charging us based on the ICE cost per mile while there real EV
cost per mile is substantially less.  There business model seems to work
great in countries that have a high cost of entry for gas power vehicles
(ie. Israel and Denmark) but with the gas friendly environment in the US
(inexpensive right now) it makes their positioning (Better Place) a tougher
sell IMO.

Also, since there are going to be multiple "EV Charging Networks" springing
up (Coulomb and Better Place) while I sell www.GreenlighAC.com charging
stations that are "non-networked" and thus allow people to charge without
the "network costs".

I appreciate other viewpoints on this as I would love access to charging
stations but don't really want the government, the insurance companies or
anybody else keeping track of how many miles I drive.

Look forward to the discussion.


Sincerely;

Douglas A. Stansfield
President
www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
973-875-6276 (office)
973-670-9208 (cell)
973-440-1619 (fax)

WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS





-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
Of jerryd
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 10:53 AM
To: dhymers@...; jerryd@...; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost



              Hi Dave and All,

                   I've been saying for yrs there is no
reason EV's need to cost more than ICE's.  They are simple
with far less parts as the motor weighs far less and only
has 3 moving parts, no transmission needed, the controller,
charger are cheap in quantity and batteries are paid for by
the tax credit. GM and I expect others are buying Lithium
batteries for $.30/wthr or less which is under seal lead
battery costs.
                   With battery swapping as A Better Place is
doing, the battery cost, risk is by them with you just
paying a by mile charge for battery and electricity with
unlimited range, cost shouldn't be any more than an ICE and
less fuel cost including battery than an ICE.
                   I think these will be hot sellers  by both
the public and gov, utility, other fleets so get your order
in early. A Better Place already ordered 100k of them to
sell where they will have swapping/charging stations.
                   Ford too will have the Focus EV ready for
when gas hits $4-5/gal next yr and since it's based on the
new lightweight Focus glider, it can be ramped up fast too
to meet the demand when gas goes up. In 2 yrs they will have
multiple Plug in hybrids, EV's like the Transit Van coming
out next yr, all based on production chassis that can easily
be switched from ICE to EV drive.
                   All the other big car companies can't ramp
up  as they are just doing prototype production lines of few
EV's because they don't want to produce them that won't be
able to meet demand for 3-4 yrs.
                    Those that invest in stock I think Nissan
and Ford are good bets as they are preparing for the future
in a smart way.
                    Has anyone else noticed the Jay Leno's
racing Focus EV on his show is getting faster as the battery
pack gets used?

                                       Jerry Dycus


----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Dave Hymers <dhymers@...>
To: jerryd@..., Electric Vehicle Discussion List
<ev@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 20:13:27 -0700

>I think we all hope they can really pull it off and the
>market responds well.
>good luck nissan, I know if I was currently buying this
>would be top of my list.
>

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------------------------------

Message: 19
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 17:35:15 -0800
From: cowtown@...
Subject: [EVDL] Scooter controller question
To: ev@...
Message-ID:
	 <20091115173515.4iolmu29a88kkowc-pbjgbja@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes";
	 format="flowed"

<<<< 3 power and 5 signal are standard for BLDC.

Kelly controllers will work fine.

At 3kw, I assume pack voltage is 48v or higher?
Get at least a 150A unit.
http://www.newkellycontroller.com/product_info.php?cPath=23_45&products_id=5
5>>>>

Thanks, Matt. It's a 60V system, and I think it's peak is only about
60 or 70A, so the 150A Kelly should be safe enough
[http://www.newkellycontroller.com/product_info.php?cPath=24&products_id=277].
My next question: is there any way mis-wiring the outputs would damage
the motor?


Think more
     Talk less
        Become wise



------------------------------

Message: 20
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 17:40:49 -0800
From: "Joseph Ashwood" <ashwood@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP732876C0DF187E94D5DF8CACA50@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original

-------------------------------------------------
From: "Willie McKemie" <mckemie@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost

> On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 02:50:21PM -0500, jerryd wrote:
>>                  Nissan is going to price the Leaf EV about
>> the same as an ICE!!
>
> That's probably with a rented battery.

yes it is. They announced a bit ago (about a month?) that the battery would
only leased, the idea being that at the end of the lease term it is still
useful for power grid stability.

Just looked up the original story I got it from
http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/10/21/leaf_battery_rental/ selected
quotes:
Under the terms of the deal, customers will buy the Leaf outright and then
lease the battery for a fixed monthly fee.

Nissan plans to start selling the Leaf from late 2010, but hasn't yet been
brave enough to release a firm combined price for the e-car and battery
rental scheme.

For example, Nissan envisages the second-hand batteries being used to iron
out fluctuations in supply from solar and wind power generation.




I hope they also make them available for purchase, I'd really hate to see
the LEAF2 have a different battery form factor so everyone that bought a
LEAF is screwed.
                             Joe



------------------------------

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For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



End of EV Digest, Vol 28, Issue 21
**********************************

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (1)
#37637 From: ev-request@...
Date: Tue Nov 17, 2009 4:36 am
Subject: EV Digest, Vol 28, Issue 22 		ev-request@...
Send Email Send Email
  
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Today's Topics:

    1. Re: Heater relay for 70V, 5A? (David Nelson)
    2. Electric Cushman on e-bay ending this morning (Steve Powers)
    3. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost (Martin K)
    4. Carbon-Lead battery 5.5x energy density (Mark Hanson)
    5. Re: Sebring-Vanguard City car for sale (near me) (Bob Rice)
    6. E-Boat Li-Ion project (Mark Hanson)
    7. Re: A123 ebay update (AMPhibian)
    8.  Alternator instead of DC to DC converter?  One more thing
       (Roland Wiench)
    9. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost (Roger Heuckeroth)
   10. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost (Dave Hymers)
   11. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost (Bob Rice)
   12. Re: E-Boat Li-Ion project (jerryd)
   13. Start up a RENT YOUR PACK OF BATTERIES store (Dennis Miles)
   14. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost (Lee Hart)
   15. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place - Business
       model discussion... (Lee Hart)
   16. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place - Business
       model discussion... (Bill Dube)
   17. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost (EVDL Administrator)
   18. Re: EV on American Chopper (Alan Brinkman)
   19. Re: Alternator instead of DC to DC converter? (Roger Stockton)
   20. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place - Business
       model discussion... (dave cover)
   21. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost (Gail Lucas)
   22. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost (Martin K)
   23. Re: Scooter controller question (Matt Lacey)
   24.  Lithium Batteries... (James R. Parish)
   25. New Group - Electrification Coalition Urge Fed's GO EV
       (Steven Lough)
   26. kelly 1200amp controller (Rich)
   27. John In his Zombie (Rich)
   28. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost (Rush)
   29.  Current-Time curve for TS and SE lithium cells? (Rob Trahms)
   30. ESD plastic? (Thor Johnson)
   31. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place - Businessmodel
       discussion... (Richard Furniss)
   32. Re: Scooter controller question (Morgan LaMoore)
   33. Re: Alternator instead of DC to DC converter? (Faile)
   34. Re: Electric Cushman on e-bay ending this morning
       (John G. Lussmyer)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 22:32:35 -0800
From: David Nelson <gizmoev@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heater relay for 70V, 5A?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <c5b2f1dc0911152232q7c29178em6f379134cc801a88@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Thank you, Lee and John,

That helps immensely. I ordered the relay from John. I'm going to hook
the 12V side of the relay through a DPST switch to the fan so that I
can't turn on the heat without the fan running but I can still run the
fan without the heat. Since the fuses, switches, relays and such must
be enclosed I'll need to make sure the grill is fine enough that I
can't touch the wiring to the heater coil either. That is my current
challenge since I don't have enough room to put the coils below the
existing grill. I'll have to raise it somehow.

David

On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 11:15 AM, Lee Hart <leeahart@...> wrote:
> David Nelson wrote:
>> I'm installing a set of heater coils in my Gizmo for defrosting the
>> lexan windshield. about 3A at 50V... At 70V I about 4.5A. I figure I need a
5A fuse.
>
> Use a fuse of about double the current you actually expect it to carry
> on a continuous basis. Otherwise, you'll have problems with nuisance
> blowing (fails after working a year or two).
>
>> I also figure I should install a relay near the battery pack so I only
>> have pack voltage in the dash when the heater is on.
>
> You can; but at 48vdc, a double-pole toggle switch (or a 3-pole toggle
> switch at 72vdc) with the poles wired in series will also work. The
> individual poles on a "120vac" switch are also good for about 30vdc, so
> 2 in series is 60vdc, or 3 in series for 90vdc.
>
>> My main question is where can I get a relay with a 12V coil that can
>> handle this application?
>
> The Potter & Brumfield KUEP or PRD series are the usual choices. The PRD
> is higher current, but the KUEP should be fine in your application.
>
> John Lussmyer <Cougar@...> had some KUEP relays at a good
> price; check with him to see if he has any left.
>
> ?> Also, what gauge of wire should I run for the
> ?> high voltage lines?
>
> Wire it exactly as if it were a 120vac circuit. That means use
> double-insulated wiring (the individual wires are insulated, plus they
> have a second layer of insulation over them. Use stranded wire, because
> it's in a vehicle where it's likely to be flexed. Put any switches,
> fuses, relays etc. in a noncombustible box (look for UL listed
> enclosures). There should be no way to touch any "live" parts of it,
> even on purpose.
> --
> Lee A. Hart ? ? ? ? ? ? | Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave N ? ? ? ? ? | Forget the perfect offering
> Sartell MN 56377 ? ? ? ?| There is a crack in everything
> leeahart earthlink.net ?| That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>



--
David D. Nelson
http://evalbum.com/1328



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 03:56:10 -0800 (PST)
From: Steve Powers <powers_ev@...>
Subject: [EVDL] Electric Cushman on e-bay ending this morning
To: ev <ev@...>
Message-ID: <288236.93202.qm@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

E-bay item: 180430533208

Someone is going to get a steal of a deal on this.  Since it is technically a
motorcycle, it isn't limited by NEV (25 MPH) speed limits.  Unfortunately,
shipping it and the charger is just more than I can tolerate or I would buy it. 
Passing the info along to someone who may want it.  Humm .. I wonder what it
would do in 12 8 V batts instead of those 6 V batts.  Now you know what my plans
were.

Steve






------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 08:53:42 -0400
From: Martin K <martin.klingensmith@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <d8f29a7d0911160453l7d41a4aia39c37a33948243@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 12:37 PM, Richard Furniss <rfurniss1@...> wrote:

> The next 10 years WILL be exciting, but what will we do when EVs become common
place?
>

Hot-rod them

--
Martin K.



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 08:34:23 -0500
From: Mark Hanson <marke.hanson@...>
Subject: [EVDL] Carbon-Lead battery 5.5x energy density
To: <ev@...>
Message-ID: <SNT114-W57889D9B384013CF1B90F284A50@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"



  Is this made of Unobtanium ?





Hi Bob,

That looks great 5.5x energy density of lead for carbon-lead.  I saw an article
in BEST (batteries energy & storage mag) Lead is not Dead on adding carbon fiber
to greatly improve the battery.  If it's true it would outdo the LiFePO4
batteries with all that pesky required cell balancing.

Best Regards,
Mark




From: Bob E. Farmer
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 1:19 PM
To: Mark E. Hanson
Subject:




http://www.ecolocap.com/site/en/press-room/company-news/ecolocap-solutions-inc-r\
eleases-cnt-battery-preliminary-comparative-testing-results.html


Bob Farmer, mechanical designer
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/
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Message: 5
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 08:39:17 -0500
From: "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sebring-Vanguard City car for sale (near me)
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <D0A41FE297B34183A0B9933ACDE29512@adminwlzisp2uc>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original


----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <CWater@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 12:02 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sebring-Vanguard City car for sale (near me)


>I cannot think of a better way to advertise an EV ;-)
>
>
> Cor van de Water
> Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: CWater@...    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: cor_van_de_water@...
> Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On
> Behalf Of Mark Hanson
> Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 2:04 AM
> To: ev@...
> Subject: [EVDL] Sebring-Vanguard City car for sale (near me)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Here's a Sebring Vanguard s**tty car for sale.  I had a yellow one many
> moons ago, went slow was hard to stop & steer but other than that it was
> ok :-)
>   Musta SOLD it, right away?! The ads down now, sigh.This guy could do
> GM's Volt ads, too!

          Bob
>
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1903463942
> 07&ih=009&category=6472&_trksid=p4506.m7&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26itu%3DUC
> I%26otn%3D3%26ps%3D6
>
> have a renewable energy day,
> Mark in roanoke, VA
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Windows 7: Unclutter your desktop.
> http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9690331&ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:e
> n-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009
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> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/ Usage guidelines:
> http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 08:47:34 -0500
From: Mark Hanson <marke.hanson@...>
Subject: [EVDL] E-Boat Li-Ion project
To: <ev@...>
Message-ID: <SNT114-W44A21C3FD6B939FEA2511E84A50@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"


Hi Folk's,



I got the LiFePO4 balancers, battery scanner and KWh E-F display completed with
twin dc-dc converters (redundancy) on the solar-electric wooden catamaran
completed from my posted schematics on www.evdl.org/lib/mh/ .



I noticed that the recommended boyant foam (I added) trapped water in between
the hull (since I bought it in April) feeling along the sides with my fingers. 
I proceeded to remove some of the boyant foam and noticed that the 1/4" ply-hull
was black/rotted and delaminating.  The further I dug the worse it was and a
couple rot-holes in some places so I removed all the foam.  Are there some boat
guru's out their that could recommend a good patch? (Email me offline since it's
not an ev question) I was just going to do the standard exterior fiberglass matt
with the 1:1 epoxy the boat was coated with and leave the inside bad wood alone
to breath/dry out (not coat inside).  I sure don't want $5k worth of LiFePO4
batteries to sink to the bottom of the lake.



Have a renewable energy (floated) day,

Mark

_________________________________________________________________
Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star.
http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727::\
T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009
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Message: 7
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 06:22:34 -0800 (PST)
From: AMPhibian <amp_phibian@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] A123 ebay update
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <1258381354611-622145.post@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


Pretty active forum here:   http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/
also here:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=7
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=7

m gol wrote:
>
>
> Also, is there another forum, where there's more discussion going on?
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
> Golub
>
>
>

--
View this message in context:
http://n4.nabble.com/A123-ebay-update-tp621962p622145.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.



------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 07:49:05 -0800
From: "Roland Wiench" <ev_7@...>
Subject: [EVDL]  Alternator instead of DC to DC converter?  One more
	 thing
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <BLU144-DS732134AB8BA02C27EF66BBEA50@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"


-----Original Message-----

By Douglas A. Stansfield
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 5:10 AM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'; ev-bounces@...
Subject: [EVDL] Alternator instead of DC to DC converter?

Dear EV enthusiasts,

I have put two Kelly DC to DC converters in my EV and the second one has now
stopped charging my accessories battery and I am considering just installing
this low cost Alternator off the motor with a pulley instead.

Anybody have any reason to not do this and try again with a different DC/DC
converter?  I can drive around in the mean time with a fully charged Deep
Cycle but that approach spooks me at night as I have had the Accessory
battery die at night before and don't like that feeling at all.  I live in
the country and there are NO street lights to start
trying to figure out the issue.

Since then, I have installed a Volt meter gauge strictly for the
Accessory battery.  Just in case it starts to look like it is going to
go down when the brake pedal is depressed, I know I don't have much time
left which happened tonight and thus figured out the DC/DC converter is
toast again.

Douglas


Hello Douglas,

If you are using a alternator, it is best to use a alternator that is design
to charge a deep cycle battery.  These type of alternators have a maximum
voltage selection control on the outside of the alternator.  My maximum
voltage range on this type of charger is 13.5, 14.0, 14.5 and 15 volts.

At first I had the standard charger that range from 13.5 to 14 volts for a
standard cranking amp battery.  If you are driving long distances with out
too many stops, then you can get by with a standard alternator and CA
battery.  My driving is all in city driving 15 to 30 mph with up to 22
stops.  Any time the motor rpm drops below 350 rpm, the charger drops off
the line.

The deep cycle accessory battery will provide plenty of energy during these
stops.  A lot of times, I may make a quick stop and go the accessory battery
may only drop to about 13.5 volts before the alternator kicks back in.

To get the alternator to exciting voltage at a low rpm, you need the same
pulley set up as it was on the engine.  If you are only connecting directly
between the main motor pilot shaft and the alternator, then you will note
that the pulley on some engines are between 6 and 8 inches in diameter.  The
pulley on the alternator is between 2 and 3 inches.

If you use a immediate pulley using three of more pulleys which I do, then I
can by with a smaller pulley on the main motor to maintain a higher rpm on
the alternator while the motor rpm is low.

I purchase my alternator from my independent auto parts store.  Instead of
buying alternator for a application which the clerk will always ask you,
tell him you want to see the alternator catalog and you will find the one
that is use for deep cycle batteries if you go that way.

Sometimes these alternators may need a initial excitation to start  to work.
This is done by shorting one of the - field to the ground of the alternator.
Have the dealer put this alternator on there test stand and they will use
a - field shorting pin that inserts into a hole in the alternator while it
runs up to rpm.  Record at what rpm that the alternator starts to excites at
and then you can calculated what pulley size you need on the main motor.

Roland




------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 09:42:05 -0500
From: Roger Heuckeroth <rheuckeroth@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost
To: jerryd@..., Electric Vehicle Discussion List
	 <ev@...>
Message-ID: <A56E0853-A6BA-4127-AE0C-CCA442B0C4ED@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes

They should be less than the ICE version.  Especially since the
batteries are not included.

On Nov 14, 2009, at 2:50 PM, jerryd wrote:

>
>
>              Hi All,
>
>                 Nissan is going to price the Leaf EV about
> the same as an ICE!!
>
> By Mary Milliken
>
> LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Nissan Motor Co Ltd will keep the
> price of its upcoming battery-powered Leaf competitive with
> similar-sized cars and expects to make money on the vehicle
> despite the cost of its launch, Chief Executive Carlos Ghosn
> on Friday.
>
> The five-passenger hatchback, which is being designed to
> have an all-electric range of 100 miles, would cost only 1
> to 2 percent more than traditional combustion engine
> vehicles in its class, he said.
>
> "On the pricing of the vehicle it is too early to say, but
> there will be no surprise," Ghosn said. "We know it will be
> the key to the mass market."
>
> Nissan has not disclosed pricing on the Leaf, but has said
> it expects the car to be the first affordable, mass-market
> electric car when it goes on sale in the United States,
> Japan and Europe by the end of 2010.
>
>
http://www.reuters.com/article/GCA-GreenBusiness/idUSTRE5AC4VC20091113?pageNumbe\
r=1&virtualBrandChannel=11604
>
>
>                                          Jerry Dycus
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 08:36:48 -0700
From: Dave Hymers <dhymers@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <ec811c3f0911160736o61cb1030ic0a5288605b26ed5@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 9:37 AM, Richard Furniss <rfurniss1@...> wrote:

>
> The next 10 years WILL be exciting, but what will we do when EVs become
> common place?
>
>
Hopefully we will celebrate and laugh at the days when we all "exploded
dinosaurs" to get around.
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Message: 11
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 11:20:18 -0500
From: "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <2A4E45D769754B1E898F7405474F7274@adminwlzisp2uc>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original


----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Furniss" <rfurniss1@...>
To: "EV List" <ev@...>
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 6:18 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost


> Dave Hymers wrote:
> I think we all hope they can really pull it off and the market responds
> well.
> good luck nissan, I know if I was currently buying this would be top of my
> list.
>
> Remember not so long ago when we thought that we would "never" see a major
> OEM EV mass-produced in our lifetime. It was the same story with advanced
> batteries and now we have LiFePo4, I think things will get really exciting
> when these vehicles and batteries start ending up in the auto recycles
> where we can buy used EV parts and start making some wild stuff.
>
> The next 10 years WILL be exciting, but what will we do when EVs become
> common place?

      Retire?   Hell? I'll cross that bridge IF we come to it? Oh, maybe go
back to playing with trains, etc?Sorta like WHAT to do with all the free
power from  Over Unity?

      Seeya

     Bob, well I guess we COULD talk politics on the EVDL<G>?
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------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 11:33:21 -0500
From: "jerryd" <jerryd@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] E-Boat Li-Ion project
To: Mark Hanson <marke.hanson@...>, <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4b017ed1.180.66a8.508575396@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"



          Hi Mark and All,

                That is what happens when one uses foam over
wood.  The fix is removing the foam, dry it out completely,
then use thin epoxy like liquid thinned with it's
recommended thinner, soak it throughly and use FG  to
replace  any wood needed.
                 Removing any water after use on wood boats
it important as is ventilation.  You have 4 compartments on
each side so unlikely to sink with a hole even without the
foam. Another 3/4 bulkhead or 2 to make 5-7 compartments can
make it even safer.

                                   Jerry Dycus

----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Mark Hanson <marke.hanson@...>
To: <ev@...>
Subject: E-Boat Li-Ion project
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 08:47:34 -0500

>Hi Folk's,
>
>
>
>I got the LiFePO4 balancers, battery scanner and KWh E-F
>display completed with twin dc-dc converters (redundancy)
>on the solar-electric wooden catamaran completed from my
>posted schematics on www.evdl.org/lib/mh/ .
>
>
>
>I noticed that the recommended boyant foam (I added)
>trapped water in between the hull (since I bought it in
>April) feeling along the sides with my fingers.  I
>proceeded to remove some of the boyant foam and noticed
>that the 1/4" ply-hull was black/rotted and delaminating.
>The further I dug the worse it was and a couple rot-holes
>in some places so I removed all the foam.  Are there some
>boat guru's out their that could recommend a good patch?
>(Email me offline since it's not an ev question) I was just
>going to do the standard exterior fiberglass matt with the
>1:1 epoxy the boat was coated with and leave the inside bad
>wood alone to breath/dry out (not coat inside).  I sure
>don't want $5k worth of LiFePO4 batteries to sink to the
>bottom of the lake.
>
>
>
>Have a renewable energy (floated) day,
>
>Mark
>
>___________________________________________________________
>______ Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a
>rock star.
>http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727:\
:T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009



------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 11:59:21 -0500
From: Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...>
Subject: [EVDL] Start up a RENT YOUR PACK OF BATTERIES store
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <2b4886ce0911160859y1ed2cfe1x521da516cace0b53@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

To my compatriots on the best EV list on the net,  (imho)

  I was driving thru downtown and upon seeing a shop I have noticed before
who is obviously doing well, SOMETHING CLICKED,  That very successful
business RENTS Wheels and sells tires to fit The really Fancy 18 to 26 inch
diameter rims which fit the thin but wide tires popular today.

  And I said to myself,"Why just let car dealers rent the batteries for the
new or existing EVs?" We don't limit only Dealers to brake work or tire
sales.

  We need someone to start up "RENT YOUR PACK" (Or other suitable name...)
for EV batteries, No money down, just a small "Administrative fee" and NEW
batteries are installed in your EV.

  Of course a GOOD "BMS" must be included and a lien on the auto title to
secure the contract then the EV Owner only pays a small rent monthly and
after a GUARANTEED period  during which the battery pack is warranted to
provide good service, then the lien is lifted from the title and no more
rental payments made, after that you can continue to use the pack for the
remaining life and eventually buy a new pack or rent again.

  If you want to sell the EV during the rental time, a contract clause would
stipulate paying off the pack or transferring the lease. Many other details
would need to be addressed for which I suggest contacting an attorney and a
good accountant.

  But for the Entrepreneur, this might be the business of a lifetime, and the
first one successful will make a great model for Franchising.

Do you need an EV related Career??    And HEY you EV dealers of batteries
add to your business by eliminating "Sticker Shock" for a new Pack of
Lithium Phosphates...

This is one of the many types of Support Businesses for EVs the world will
need and SOON!  It takes a year to organize and become established, Now is
the time to get started to open for next fall.

I claim no rights to this idea so if it interests you, make it your own, I
feel it could help the proliferation of Electric Vehicles and that is my
only interest

Regards,

     Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
        Phone (863) 289 - 0690
"Mentoring, Small Group Instruction,
and Hands-On training
for the EV Technicians:
Building, Converting, Repairing,
and Servicing the
Electric Vehicles of Today,
and the Future."
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Message: 14
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 11:04:19 -0600
From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B018613.1040809@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Dennis Miles wrote:
> Why just let car dealers rent the batteries for the new EVs?

It is already common for users of common EVs like forklifts and golf
carts to rent or lease their batteries. They typically use flooded
batteries, which have the lowest operating cost, but require periodic
maintenance (clean tops, check terminals, add water, etc.) Many
companies don't want to employ any maintenance staff, so they "farm out"
this work.

So, a golf course might get a 3-year lease on batteries for their carts.
The leasing firm comes out and installs the batteries, and sends someone
out every month or so to check, clean, and top off the water. If a
battery fails early, they replace it at no cost to the customer
(probably with a used battery; see below).

After 3 years, the lease price has fully paid for the batteries. The
owner can extend the contract, in which case he gets a "free" set of
batteries to replace the old ones and is set for another 3 years.

Of course, the batteries aren't really shot after 3 years. The leasing
firm often sells those used batteries for maybe half their new price to
a different golf course who wants a cheap price and will do their own
maintenance.

The monthly lease price is higher than the golf course would have paid
if they bought the batteries outright and hired some kid to do the
maintenance. But just like leasing a car or buying insurance, they are
buying security.

I think this will inevitably happen with on-road EVs once there are
enough of them to make a rent/lease business viable.

However, you can also bet that the major car companies will do
everything possible to *block* such a business (custom battery sizes,
secret interface codes, and the like).
--
Lee A. Hart  | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N  | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen



------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 11:36:03 -0600
From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
	 Business model discussion...
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B018D83.7010701@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Douglas A. Stansfield wrote:
> I currently dislike the Better Place business model as they will be
> charging us based on the ICE cost per mile while their real EV cost
> per mile is substantially less.

Of course; that's how they hope to make a profit!

The average consumer is worried that the battery will wear out early,
and stick him with an outrageous cost. Better Place is offering an
"insurance policy" for such people, so they have a guaranteed cost per mile.

Savvy EV drivers won't buy their plan. They'll know that by buying their
batteries outright and taking good care of them, they will last long and
have a lower cost per mile.

The market really needs both kinds of players.

> Also, since there are going to be multiple "EV Charging Networks"
> springing up (Coulomb and Better Place) while I sell
> www.GreenlighAC.com charging stations that are "non-networked" and
> thus allow people to charge without the "network costs".

This is an area of concern. Large companies will inevitably try to
monopolize the charging infrastructure. You can see this at work with
the Magnecharger, Avcon, and NEC article 625 in the last batch of EVs.

--
Lee A. Hart  | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N  | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen



------------------------------

Message: 16
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 10:50:41 -0700
From: Bill Dube <billdube@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
	 Business model discussion...
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <20091116175053.24810EE3CE@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed


Hmm. "Real EV cost per mile" is not well-defined while "cost per
mile" seems pretty straightforward to me. Just like you pay for
minutes on your cell phone, you would pay for miles on your battery
pack with BetterPlace. Makes perfect sense to me.

Every vehicle has a cost per mile. For an EV, the costs are different
than they are for an ICE, but you can still do the accounting on a
per mile basis. The energy cost plus the maintenance cost. This
includes the depreciation of the battery in the case of the EV.

          If you choose your battery technology wisely, the cost of
the energy is similar to the cycle life cost of the battery. The most
economic battery per mile is generally not the least expensive
battery. The size of the battery adds to the per mile cost because of
the investment costs. This is why a model like the BetterPlace system
can work for the consumer. By leasing, instead of owning, your
battery, you can pay for _exactly_ what you need and what you
actually use. No more and no less. You can change your mind about
range and usage without having to trade in your car. The newer, more
expensive, battery technologies will likely outlive the car, so it is
an investment that only pays off if you can easily transfer the
remaining cycle life to another car easily and seamlessly.

          Why pay the large up-front cost of a long-range battery pack
when you will rarely need that range? If you lease a swappable pack,
you can upgrade temporarily for a long trip, or permanently if your
commute changes. If you opt for very modest range, you can lease pack
that has lower range at a substantially lower cost than a long-range
pack. If your pack ages to the point where it no longer meets your
range needs, the leasing company swaps it out. Your aged, lower
range, pack will then be leased to someone that has a lower range
requirement (and a less expensive lease.) The same is true if you
discover that your range requirements are less than you first thought
when you bought the car. You can reduce your per mile costs by
leasing a lower range battery that meets your actual needs.

The networked charger brings down the energy costs substantially. It
also makes optimal use of the existing infrastructure.
(Infrastructure costs are a very substantial portion of the energy
costs.) These lower energy costs will be reflected in the cost per
mile to the consumer. If they are not, then another battery leasing
company will step in easily.

          Whether the specific company BetterPlace does the leasing is
a matter for the free market to decide. (VHS versus BetaMax.)
Regardless, the concept of battery leasing makes complete sense as
does "smart" changing.

Bill Dube'

>You bring up Better Place and the business model they have about pricing on
>a per mile basis.  I currently dislike the Better Place business model as
>they will be charging us based on the ICE cost per mile while there real EV
>cost per mile is substantially less.  There business model seems to work
>great in countries that have a high cost of entry for gas power vehicles
>(ie. Israel and Denmark) but with the gas friendly environment in the US
>(inexpensive right now) it makes their positioning (Better Place) a tougher
>sell IMO.





------------------------------

Message: 17
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 13:02:40 -0500
From: "EVDL Administrator" <evpost@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B014D70.29809.291D730@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

On 15 Nov 2009 at 15:18, Richard Furniss wrote:

> Remember not so long ago when we thought that we would "never" see a major OEM
> EV mass-produced in our lifetime.

And we STILL haven't!  We hve promises, but we've had those many times
before from many other automakers, large and small.

Note that Nissan is planning to offer the Leaf in only a few markets.  They
could still cancel those plans (see : Chrysler).  And for the rest of us,
who don't live in the lucky few cities, the Leaf effectively still won't
exist even if they do keep their promise.

As I've said many times, it's not real until I personally can walk into the
dealer, hand them a check, and drive out in the car.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" an "etpost" addresses will not
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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------------------------------

Message: 18
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 10:30:28 -0800
From: "Alan Brinkman" <balan@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV on American Chopper
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <A138FC43915EC14CBAB3182B797BBF190AA52FE0@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I saw the American Chopper episode you mentioned recently. It was
interesting to see a DC motor and controller used. I thought they should
have made the frame from scratch, not shorten the motor, just drive the
rear wheel with one chain, not from both sides. It was an interesting
design. Battery selection and making the batteries and parts more open
for repairs would have been a help. The oddest thing was the number of
times that staff was shocked, and the number of shorts they had. I would
like to have seen the top speed they ran, and how far they could travel
on a charge. I hope I do not sound negative, the show was entertaining.

Alan

-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On
Behalf Of cowtown@...
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 5:43 PM
To: ev@...
Subject: [EVDL] EV on American Chopper

I use to watch American Chopper a few years ago, but gave up on the
drama aspect. Don't know how long this has been out (they repeat
episodes constantly), but I happened by TLC tonight and I see they are
doing an electrified chopper.

Sears must be one of the sponsors [big Die Hard batteries (SLAs)
feature prominently], an Advanced DC motor (they call them to find out
how to make more room for mounting - whacking the internal fan made me
cringe), and an Alltrax controller...it's enough power to get around,
but I think they are more interested in looks than performance. Wish
they had chosen smaller cells, higher voltage, and a little injection
of "Zilla green"!

Anyone else seen this episode? Any comments on their process or the
end result?

_______________________________________________
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------------------------------

Message: 19
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 10:35:52 -0800
From: Roger Stockton <rstockton@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Alternator instead of DC to DC converter?
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <706F54AA6AA33D48AD2CDA168A1E35CF2A227A92FE@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Douglas A. Stansfield wrote:

> Who knows?  Opening up the box shows it is a big block of
> Epoxy.  Maybe it overhead.  Maybe the soldering was good but
> who could tell with Epoxy all over it.  Maybe both of them
> just had poor quality components in them?  I can't be sure
> which one of these is the issue but I can't tell you for sure
> that they both stopped working after about 2 months of use.

Just a guess, but your EV Album page says you were using the 96V model DC/DC
(75-130VDC input range), even though you had increased your pack to 132V
nominal.

A 132V pack can easily sit over 140V fully charged, and even 132V is higher than
the maximum rated input voltage for the DC/DC you were using.

I think that you might have found the Kelly DC/DC to be considerably more
reliable if you'd replaced the 96V model with a 120V model (94-162VDC input
range) when you increased the pack to 132V, or after the first 96V unit died
(which from the dates on your EV Album page updates appears to have been at the
same time as you increased the pack voltage ;^).

Cheers,

Roger.



------------------------------

Message: 20
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 13:39:18 -0500
From: dave cover <davecover@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
	 Business model discussion...
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <ae3bc37c0911161039w232813ebmcad8c97090349bca@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Doug

I agree about Better Place. Seems like they are too interested in
keeping their fingers in my charging. The cost of charging should be
based on the cost of electricity. We already have a fine charging
network. It's our current electric grid. Anyone that wants to make it
more complicated or proprietary is just looking for a way to make more
money off of the masses. Don't control me or monitor me. Just let me
plug in for a fair price.

Dave Cover

On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 7:50 PM, Douglas A. Stansfield
<Doug@...> wrote:
> Dear Jerry,
>
> You bring up Better Place and the business model they have about pricing on
> a per mile basis. ?I currently dislike the Better Place business model as
> they will be charging us based on the ICE cost per mile while there real EV
> cost per mile is substantially less. ?There business model seems to work
> great in countries that have a high cost of entry for gas power vehicles
> (ie. Israel and Denmark) but with the gas friendly environment in the US
> (inexpensive right now) it makes their positioning (Better Place) a tougher
> sell IMO.
>
> Also, since there are going to be multiple "EV Charging Networks" springing
> up (Coulomb and Better Place) while I sell www.GreenlighAC.com charging
> stations that are "non-networked" and thus allow people to charge without
> the "network costs".
>
> I appreciate other viewpoints on this as I would love access to charging
> stations but don't really want the government, the insurance companies or
> anybody else keeping track of how many miles I drive.
>
> Look forward to the discussion.
>
>
> Sincerely;
>
> Douglas A. Stansfield
> President
> www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
> 973-875-6276 (office)
> 973-670-9208 (cell)
> 973-440-1619 (fax)
>
> WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
> And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
> Of jerryd
> Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 10:53 AM
> To: dhymers@...; jerryd@...; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost
>
>
>
> ? ? ? ? ? ? Hi Dave and All,
>
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?I've been saying for yrs there is no
> reason EV's need to cost more than ICE's. ?They are simple
> with far less parts as the motor weighs far less and only
> has 3 moving parts, no transmission needed, the controller,
> charger are cheap in quantity and batteries are paid for by
> the tax credit. GM and I expect others are buying Lithium
> batteries for $.30/wthr or less which is under seal lead
> battery costs.
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?With battery swapping as A Better Place is
> doing, the battery cost, risk is by them with you just
> paying a by mile charge for battery and electricity with
> unlimited range, cost shouldn't be any more than an ICE and
> less fuel cost including battery than an ICE.
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?I think these will be hot sellers ?by both
> the public and gov, utility, other fleets so get your order
> in early. A Better Place already ordered 100k of them to
> sell where they will have swapping/charging stations.
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Ford too will have the Focus EV ready for
> when gas hits $4-5/gal next yr and since it's based on the
> new lightweight Focus glider, it can be ramped up fast too
> to meet the demand when gas goes up. In 2 yrs they will have
> multiple Plug in hybrids, EV's like the Transit Van coming
> out next yr, all based on production chassis that can easily
> be switched from ICE to EV drive.
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?All the other big car companies can't ramp
> up ?as they are just doing prototype production lines of few
> EV's because they don't want to produce them that won't be
> able to meet demand for 3-4 yrs.
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Those that invest in stock I think Nissan
> and Ford are good bets as they are preparing for the future
> in a smart way.
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Has anyone else noticed the Jay Leno's
> racing Focus EV on his show is getting faster as the battery
> pack gets used?
>
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Jerry Dycus
>
>
> ----- Original Message Follows -----
> From: Dave Hymers <dhymers@...>
> To: jerryd@..., Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> <ev@...>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost
> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 20:13:27 -0700
>
>>I think we all hope they can really pull it off and the
>>market responds well.
>>good luck nissan, I know if I was currently buying this
>>would be top of my list.
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
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>
> _______________________________________________
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> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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>
>



--
http://www.evalbum.com/2149



------------------------------

Message: 21
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 11:08:17 -0800
From: "Gail Lucas" <gaildlucas@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <06B357ECBD7D49B7807AB0024BE22E21@GailPC>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original

I thought that was the goal, to have everyone driving EVs.  Richard, are you
suggesting that EVs should remain the property of only those who want a
hobby?  I want them to become commonplace as soon as possible so we can pull
into any shop to have one repaired, the same as if it were an ICE, to stop
at any gas station to charge at one of their outlets and go to any auto
dealer to buy a new one, which will have a warranty.  If I tell someone I
drive an EV I want them to respond, "Doesn't everyone?"

Gail

----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Furniss" <rfurniss1@...>
To: "EV List" <ev@...>
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 3:18 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost


> Remember not so long ago when we thought that we would "never" see a major
> OEM EV mass-produced in our lifetime. It was the same story with advanced
> batteries and now we have LiFePo4, I think things will get really exciting
> when these vehicles and batteries start ending up in the auto recycles
> where we can buy used EV parts and start making some wild stuff.
>
> The next 10 years WILL be exciting, but what will we do when EVs become
> common place?



------------------------------

Message: 22
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 15:09:57 -0400
From: Martin K <martin.klingensmith@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <d8f29a7d0911161109p6be8b1c0i9e6785da1de7b18@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 9:40 PM, Joseph Ashwood <ashwood@...> wrote:

>
>
> I hope they also make them available for purchase, I'd really hate to see
> the LEAF2 have a different battery form factor so everyone that bought a
> LEAF is screwed.
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Joe

That won't happen, some third party would be happy to pick up a
smaller market that they are unwilling to support. Getting the cart
before the horse eh?

--
Martin K.



------------------------------

Message: 23
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 03:41:06 +0900
From: "Matt Lacey" <mc.lacey@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Scooter controller question
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <00ee01ca66ec$5b7aa600$0a01a8c0@mattlaptop2>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>Thanks, Matt. It's a 60V system, and I think it's peak is only about 60 or
70A, so the 150A Kelly should be safe
>enough
[http://www.newkellycontroller.com/product_info.php?cPath=24&products_id=277
].

No probs,
Is that 60-70A peak measured at the battery? Or the motor?
All the kelly controllers are rated in motor side current.
I know the original controller on my emax pull 60-70A from the batteries
from 15kmh to 45kmh.
That controller was actaully feeding the motor 150-200A.
So if your present controller is similar to my old emax one, the 150A kelly
controller is the bare minimum.

>My next question: is there any way mis-wiring the outputs would damage the
motor?
If you mis-wire the outputs, the controller will drive it incorrectly (and
make odd noises)
However, the controller limits motorside current, so nothing should get
damaged (ive mis-wired before)

Matt


-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
Of cowtown@...
Sent: Monday, 16 November 2009 10:35 AM
To: ev@...
Subject: [EVDL] Scooter controller question

<<<< 3 power and 5 signal are standard for BLDC.

Kelly controllers will work fine.

At 3kw, I assume pack voltage is 48v or higher?
Get at least a 150A unit.
http://www.newkellycontroller.com/product_info.php?cPath=23_45&products_id=5
5>>>>

Thanks, Matt. It's a 60V system, and I think it's peak is only about 60 or
70A, so the 150A Kelly should be safe enough
[http://www.newkellycontroller.com/product_info.php?cPath=24&products_id=277
].
My next question: is there any way mis-wiring the outputs would damage the
motor?


Think more
     Talk less
        Become wise

_______________________________________________
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Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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------------------------------

Message: 24
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 16:42:31 -0500
From: "James R. Parish" <jrp@...>
Subject: [EVDL]  Lithium Batteries...
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <F9DD0ADA71FEF94F9AE0591A75431DB90530A7@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I have been off-list for a while, who has 40Ah and 100Ah Lithium cells
for sale in the US now?  I need a 72V pack. I need pricing too.




------------------------------

Message: 25
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 14:37:33 -0800
From: Steven Lough <stevenslough@...>
Subject: [EVDL] New Group - Electrification Coalition Urge Fed's GO EV
To: seva@..., Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR
	 <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B01D42D.5090109@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed

A new coalition has been formed to PUSH the Federal Gov. to GO EV

Check out the AP article at:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hRza6NQ2Pvmww0wQRomrXyZYB_UgD9\
C0PTTG0

They already have a YouTube up at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHSMmtIKmkM
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle,  WA  98115-7230
Day:  206 524 1351
Cell:   206 850 8535
e-mail: stevenslough@...
web:     http://www.seattleeva.org



------------------------------

Message: 26
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 15:03:26 -0500
From: "Rich" <torich1@...>
Subject: [EVDL] kelly 1200amp controller
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <14F0C913F372479A9A0D1531FACF9A74@HOME>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Kelly 1200 amp controller

http://www.kellycontroller.com/shop/?mod=product&product_ID=453&cat_ID=34,33
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------------------------------

Message: 27
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 20:20:11 -0500
From: "Rich" <torich1@...>
Subject: [EVDL] John In his Zombie
To: <ev@...>
Message-ID: <0CC83DA766D84AA4925363E1B02F195A@HOME>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

This is John with his Zombie at the track....Wow

http://www.opb.org:80/programs/ofg/videos/view/56-Electric-Drag-Racing
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------------------------------

Message: 28
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 22:43:11 -0700
From: "Rush" <Rush@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <596B9726D6C6455B8BD4552CE76A9E88@meadow>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original

> Remember not so long ago when we thought that we would "never" see a major
> OEM EV mass-produced in our lifetime. It was the same story with advanced
> batteries and now we have LiFePo4, I think things will get really exciting
> when these vehicles and batteries start ending up in the auto recycles
> where we can buy used EV parts and start making some wild stuff.
>
> The next 10 years WILL be exciting, but what will we do when EVs become
> common place?

You're not going to get any of the Leaf batteries from junk yards... Nissan
is selling the car, but leasing the battery

But there will be a level 3 power inlet next to the level 2 inlet.

http://evsandenergy.blogspot.com/2009/11/nissans-leaf-falls-gently-to-earth-in.h\
tml

Rush
Tucson AZ



------------------------------

Message: 29
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 18:19:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Rob Trahms <rtrahms@...>
Subject: [EVDL]  Current-Time curve for TS and SE lithium cells?
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <1258424366859-622495.post@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii



Hi all -

I read in the specs for TS-LFP90AHA cells, sustained current is <= 3C (270A)
and peak current is <= 20C (1800A).

Similarly, specs for SE100AHA cells, sustained current is <= 4C( 400A) and
peak current is <= 12C (1200A).

First of all, I'd like to hear if anyone knows why these peak currents are
so different, when the batteries are similar.

Next, I'd like to hear if anyone has extrapolated time curves from these
data points.   How long is peak current, and how long is sustained?   What
are the margins?  This will help me choose the appropriate fuse, as I
currently have a 500A semiconductor fuse, and I am concerned it is too high
for my application (I am using SE100AHAs).

Thanks in advance!

Rob
--
View this message in context:
http://n4.nabble.com/Current-Time-curve-for-TS-and-SE-lithium-cells-tp622495p622\
495.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.



------------------------------

Message: 30
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 21:38:46 -0500
From: "Thor Johnson" <tjohnson@...>
Subject: [EVDL] ESD plastic?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <12E11415AF215A43A94A68630C6C4AFB249D@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I have access to a CO2 laser cutter; I was thinking about cutting out
nice covers for my battery pack (400V divided into 22 packs), but I'm
using the eLithion BMS with its bare boards mounted topside, and I
remembered that lexan & plexi have an inordinate static buildup
issue....



Is there a good, inexpensive ESD plastic I can use for the covers
(ideally, it would be transparent/translucent, but I can drill holes)?
Would the "ESD" material's resistance be enough for safety?



-Thor Johnson

(Getting Closer)



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Message: 31
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 19:05:10 -0800
From: "Richard Furniss" <rfurniss1@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
	 Businessmodel discussion...
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <7DD5F0AC9C3B42B39C00100D948DE7B5@richard01>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

I'm not sure Better Place will be a very big business. Think about what a normal
person will do, (if I'm normal then) I buy the Leaf and charge it in my garage,
it will be my around town car, where most of my driving is, the battery is
expected to last 5 years. My plug-in Hybrid will be my long haul car.

I will lease the battery, this means I don't have to put a lot of money up front
to buy it and won't have to pay to dispose of the battery. This car may never
pull into a Better Place battery swapping station.

But I agree with you that some people will make non-OEM battery you can put in
your Leaf, you get what you pay for. I can see after-market "inexpensive"
battery and high performance battery for racing coming.



Have a renewable sustainable energy day


Richard Furniss
Las Vegas NV

   You bring up Better Place and the business model they have about pricing on
   a per mile basis.  I currently dislike the Better Place business model as
   they will be charging us based on the ICE cost per mile while there real EV
   cost per mile is substantially less.  There business model seems to work
   great in countries that have a high cost of entry for gas power vehicles
   (ie. Israel and Denmark) but with the gas friendly environment in the US
   (inexpensive right now) it makes their positioning (Better Place) a tougher
   sell IMO.

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Message: 32
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 21:07:21 -0600
From: Morgan LaMoore <morganl@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Scooter controller question
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <4230c7190911161907o10cc7a00td354ed5990b38c97@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 7:35 PM,  <cowtown@...> wrote:
> ...
> My next question: is there any way mis-wiring the outputs would damage
> the motor?

For the 3 power connections, no (as long as you use current-limited
supply instead of a battery while figuring it out).

For the 5 sense connections, yes. You have to get the power supply and
ground pins right or you can fry the sensors. The 3 outputs don't
matter; getting them wrong should just make it not spin properly or
draw too much current (which isn't a problem with a current-limited
supply).

If you put a 5k-10k resistor in series with the power to the sensors
until you figure out which one is power and ground, that should make
testing much safer. It's no guarantee, but it should limit current to
a safe level. Hopefully the sensor wires are color coded with read and
black for power and ground; that'd be a good first guess.

Good luck!

-Morgan LaMoore



------------------------------

Message: 33
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 21:45:53 -0500
From: "Faile" <fhartsell@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Alternator instead of DC to DC converter?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <3F6A734E5A464460819C3616138B7474@FreddiePC>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

I have been using a single wire GM alternator on my conversion for over a
year now without any problems.  I would not consider using a dc to dc
converter because the price of a brand new alternator is around $100.00 and
it will work for a long time as compared to a dc to dc converter that is
priced much higher.

Freddie


----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas A. Stansfield" <Doug@...>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>;
<ev-bounces@...>
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 6:40 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Alternator instead of DC to DC converter?


> Dear EV enthusiasts,
>
>
>
> I have put two Kelly DC to DC converters in my EV and the second one has
> now
> stopped charging my accessories battery and I am considering just
> installing
> this low cost Alternator off the motor with a pulley instead.    Anybody
> have any reason to not do this and try again with a different DC/DC
> converter?  I can drive around in the mean time with a fully charged Deep
> Cycle but that approach spooks me at night as I have had the Accessory
> battery die at night before and don't like that feeling at all.  I live in
> the country and there are NO street lights to start trying to figure out
> the
> issue.
>
>
>
> Since then, I have installed a Volt meter gauge strictly for the Accessory
> battery.  Just in case it starts to look like it is going to go down when
> the brake pedal is depressed, I know I don't have much time left which
> happened tonight and thus figured out the DC/DC converter is toast again.
>
>
>
> As always, appreciate the input ahead of time.
>
>
>
> Doug Stansfield
>
> www.EVAlbum.com/1973
>
>
>
>
>
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> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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------------------------------

Message: 34
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 19:40:09 -0800
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <Cougar@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric Cushman on e-bay ending this morning
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B021B19.2080206@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Steve Powers wrote:
> E-bay item: 180430533208
>
> Someone is going to get a steal of a deal on this.  Since it is technically a
motorcycle, it isn't limited by NEV (25 MPH) speed limits.  Unfortunately,
shipping it and the charger is just more than I can tolerate or I would buy it. 
Passing the info along to someone who may want it.  Humm .. I wonder what it
would do in 12 8 V batts instead of those 6 V batts.  Now you know what my plans
were.
>
Someone did get a steal.  Only $800.

You sent the msg around 4am, and it arrived here around 7:30pm...
Quite a delay there.




------------------------------

_______________________________________________
EV@...
For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



End of EV Digest, Vol 28, Issue 22
**********************************

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (1)
#37638 From: ev-request@...
Date: Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:14 pm
Subject: EV Digest, Vol 28, Issue 23 		ev-request@...
Send Email Send Email
  
Send EV mailing list submissions to
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of your message, and quote only the parts to which you're replying.



Today's Topics:

    1. Re: Lithium Batteries... (gottdi@...)
    2. Re: Start up a RENT YOUR PACK OF BATTERIES store (Mike Nickerson)
    3. Re: Lithium Batteries... (Bill Dube)
    4. low profile tires (Al)
    5. Re: kelly 1200amp controller (Morgan LaMoore)
    6. Re: Lithium Batteries... (Morgan LaMoore)
    7. Re: low profile tires (Morgan LaMoore)
    8. Re: low profile tires (Zeke Yewdall)
    9. Re: Lithium Batteries... (Travis Gintz)
   10. Re: Current-Time curve for TS and SE lithium cells?
       (Morgan LaMoore)
   11. Re: A123 ebay update (Daniel Bodley)
   12. Re: Performance vs temperature..........it SUCKS!
       (Victor Tikhonov)
   13.  Tango on Jay Lenos Garage (Otmar)
   14. Re: Start up a RENT YOUR PACK OF BATTERIES store (Jon Bishop)
   15. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place - Business
       model discussion... (Jon Bishop)
   16. Heater relay for 120V (Evan Tuer)
   17. Re: Lithium Batteries... (Collin Kidder)
   18. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place - Business
       model discussion... (Douglas A. Stansfield)
   19. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place - Business
       model discussion... (Douglas A. Stansfield)
   20. Re: Start up a RENT YOUR PACK OF BATTERIES store
       (Douglas A. Stansfield)
   21. Re: Start up a RENT YOUR PACK OF BATTERIES store (Dennis Miles)
   22. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost (Jeff Shanab)
   23. Re: Heater relay for 120V (rodhower@...)
   24.  Carbon-Lead battery 5.5x energy density (Jeff Shanab)
   25. Re: Start up a RENT YOUR PACK OF BATTERIES store (Dennis Miles)
   26. Re: Heater relay for 120V (Evan Tuer)
   27. Re: Tango on Jay Lenos Garage (Dennis Miles)
   28. Re: Tango on Jay Lenos Garage (Martin K)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:21:13 -0800
From: gottdi@...
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lithium Batteries...
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <455727D5-A7BF-464E-BABD-91E9A56BD509@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed

evcomponents


On Nov 16, 2009, at 1:42 PM, James R. Parish wrote:

> I have been off-list for a while, who has 40Ah and 100Ah Lithium cells
> for sale in the US now?  I need a 72V pack. I need pricing too.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 21:40:32 -0700
From: "Mike Nickerson" <mike@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Start up a RENT YOUR PACK OF BATTERIES store
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <02e901ca6740$1a435a70$4eca0f50$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I wonder if this is really going to have a chance to work.  I also wonder
how much the market will really come to play in this (referring back to Bill
Dube's message).  My concern is that you (the consumer) may not have much
choice on where to lease your battery.  The manufacturers could easily write
the purchase contracts to limit you to their batteries (or the companies
they have partnered with).

I work with LaserJet printers where the business model is widely understood
to be based around the consumables revenue (toner cartridges) over the long
term.  However, most printer manufacturers sell you the cartridge and don't
keep ownership of the empty shell.  This has led to a healthy secondary
market for refilled and remanufactured toner cartridges.

If car manufacturers require a battery lease AS A CONDITION OF PURCHASE, how
will this secondary market get started?  Where will the packs come from?
Who would buy/lease them from a third-party when they're already under
contract with the car manufacturer?

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
Of Dennis Miles
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 9:59 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] Start up a RENT YOUR PACK OF BATTERIES store

To my compatriots on the best EV list on the net,  (imho)

  I was driving thru downtown and upon seeing a shop I have noticed before
who is obviously doing well, SOMETHING CLICKED,  That very successful
business RENTS Wheels and sells tires to fit The really Fancy 18 to 26 inch
diameter rims which fit the thin but wide tires popular today.

  And I said to myself,"Why just let car dealers rent the batteries for the
new or existing EVs?" We don't limit only Dealers to brake work or tire
sales.

  We need someone to start up "RENT YOUR PACK" (Or other suitable name...)
for EV batteries, No money down, just a small "Administrative fee" and NEW
batteries are installed in your EV.

  Of course a GOOD "BMS" must be included and a lien on the auto title to
secure the contract then the EV Owner only pays a small rent monthly and
after a GUARANTEED period  during which the battery pack is warranted to
provide good service, then the lien is lifted from the title and no more
rental payments made, after that you can continue to use the pack for the
remaining life and eventually buy a new pack or rent again.

  If you want to sell the EV during the rental time, a contract clause would
stipulate paying off the pack or transferring the lease. Many other details
would need to be addressed for which I suggest contacting an attorney and a
good accountant.

  But for the Entrepreneur, this might be the business of a lifetime, and the
first one successful will make a great model for Franchising.

Do you need an EV related Career??    And HEY you EV dealers of batteries
add to your business by eliminating "Sticker Shock" for a new Pack of
Lithium Phosphates...

This is one of the many types of Support Businesses for EVs the world will
need and SOON!  It takes a year to organize and become established, Now is
the time to get started to open for next fall.

I claim no rights to this idea so if it interests you, make it your own, I
feel it could help the proliferation of Electric Vehicles and that is my
only interest

Regards,

     Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
        Phone (863) 289 - 0690
"Mentoring, Small Group Instruction,
and Hands-On training
for the EV Technicians:
Building, Converting, Repairing,
and Servicing the
Electric Vehicles of Today,
and the Future."
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------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 21:42:25 -0700
From: Bill Dube <billdube@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lithium Batteries...
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <20091117044604.AFBBA152CB@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

James,

          Last I checked  http://www.evcomponents.com  has about the
best pricing on cells that size.

          Why stop at 72 volts? :-)

Bill Dube'

At 02:42 PM 11/16/2009, you wrote:
>I have been off-list for a while, who has 40Ah and 100Ah Lithium cells
>for sale in the US now?  I need a 72V pack. I need pricing too.
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 23:23:58 -0500
From: "Al" <bigg_al@...>
Subject: [EVDL] low profile tires
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <007501ca673d$c87d6ed0$4001a8c0@ALANAMD64>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
	 reply-type=original

Why is it that one cannot find "narrow" low profile tires?
Is it because narrow isn't "cool", or do the tires have to be wider to have
enough strength?

Thanks, Al



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 23:22:00 -0600
From: Morgan LaMoore <morganl@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] kelly 1200amp controller
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <4230c7190911162122h49d7b8c2oe1df15da3c4c36ba@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

A Zilla Z2k weighs 29.5 pounds; how can a Kelly that weighs 6 pounds
reliably handle 1200A?

Based on what I've heard on this list, I think that Kelly's current
claims are exaggerated unless you care about the peak current for a
few seconds before it enters thermal cutback.

-Morgan LaMoore

On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 2:03 PM, Rich <torich1@...> wrote:
> Kelly 1200 amp controller
>
> http://www.kellycontroller.com/shop/?mod=product&product_ID=453&cat_ID=34,33
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> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
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9:12 AM
> _______________________________________________
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> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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>
>



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 23:27:12 -0600
From: Morgan LaMoore <morganl@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lithium Batteries...
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <4230c7190911162127w23cf721eo2c620c1f39937e94@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Here's one store with pricing:

http://www.evcomponents.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=28

The Sky Energy or ThunderSky are probably what you're looking for; the
Headway cells are smaller, more powerful, and more expensive.

-Morgan LaMoore

On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 3:42 PM, James R. Parish <jrp@...> wrote:
> I have been off-list for a while, who has 40Ah and 100Ah Lithium cells
> for sale in the US now? ?I need a 72V pack. I need pricing too.



------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 23:32:03 -0600
From: Morgan LaMoore <morganl@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] low profile tires
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <4230c7190911162132l36e428a4i3d3551782358e6c3@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 10:23 PM, Al <bigg_al@...> wrote:
> Why is it that one cannot find "narrow" low profile tires?
> Is it because narrow isn't "cool", or do the tires have to be wider to have
> enough strength?
>
> Thanks, Al

I think it's because low profile tires are meant to be performance
tires, and narrow tires have poor grip and poor performance (when
you're pushing the limits of your vehicle's handling).

People who get them because they're "cool" are just copying the people
who get them because they give better handling.

Why do you want narrow, low-profile tires? If you're going for higher
efficiency, I think a taller sidewall would be better.

-Morgan LaMoore



------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 22:37:55 -0700
From: Zeke Yewdall <zyewdall@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] low profile tires
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <f446b2df0911162137t2022d221w8583026105c10dc1@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Probably because they'd start becoming so low that there wasn't enough
rubber to protect against pinch flats, or whatever you call them on
automotive tires.  A 45 series tire that's wide still has a good 3 inches of
rubber or so (45% of the width), but a 45 series narrow tire might be only
an inch of rubber, which may even be too little to fit on a standard
designed rim with standard tools, and probably wouldn't give much cushion
either.

I always run the narrowest tires I can find (for snow, but it also helps
with the rolling resistance... I think).

Z

On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 9:23 PM, Al <bigg_al@...> wrote:

> Why is it that one cannot find "narrow" low profile tires?
> Is it because narrow isn't "cool", or do the tires have to be wider to have
> enough strength?
>
> Thanks, Al
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
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Message: 9
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 22:06:25 -0800
From: Travis Gintz <frodus17@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lithium Batteries...
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <b44c78160911162206g1ee98694x29e16d591923d8d8@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

" Why stop at 72 volts? :-)"

Classic.....



On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 8:42 PM, Bill Dube <billdube@...> wrote:

> James,
>
>         Last I checked  http://www.evcomponents.com  has about the
> best pricing on cells that size.
>
>         Why stop at 72 volts? :-)
>
> Bill Dube'
>
> At 02:42 PM 11/16/2009, you wrote:
> >I have been off-list for a while, who has 40Ah and 100Ah Lithium cells
> >for sale in the US now?  I need a 72V pack. I need pricing too.
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> >Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> >Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> >Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> >Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>


--
Travis Gintz
1986 Honda VFR DC conversion
Http://blog.evfr.net/
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Message: 10
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 00:29:35 -0600
From: Morgan LaMoore <morganl@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Current-Time curve for TS and SE lithium cells?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <4230c7190911162229i4a92ebe0rf927fe4ace1db0df@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Hi,

Sustained current is about 20 seconds maximum, and peak current is for
milliseconds or less.

The problem is that even though the datasheets claim you can get such
a high peak current, in the real world, the internal resistance means
your voltage would sag too much for it to be useful. The 3C/4C that is
claimed as sustained is a reasonable maximum because of the amount of
voltage sag.

Otherwise, we'd all be building budget dragsters with ThunderSky and Sky Energy.

-Morgan LaMoore

On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 8:19 PM, Rob Trahms <rtrahms@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hi all -
>
> I read in the specs for TS-LFP90AHA cells, sustained current is <= 3C (270A)
> and peak current is <= 20C (1800A).
>
> Similarly, specs for SE100AHA cells, sustained current is <= 4C( 400A) and
> peak current is <= 12C (1200A).
>
> First of all, I'd like to hear if anyone knows why these peak currents are
> so different, when the batteries are similar.
>
> Next, I'd like to hear if anyone has extrapolated time curves from these
> data points. ? How long is peak current, and how long is sustained? ? What
> are the margins? ?This will help me choose the appropriate fuse, as I
> currently have a 500A semiconductor fuse, and I am concerned it is too high
> for my application (I am using SE100AHAs).
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Rob
> --
> View this message in context:
http://n4.nabble.com/Current-Time-curve-for-TS-and-SE-lithium-cells-tp622495p622\
495.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>



------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 18:08:27 +1100
From: Daniel Bodley <dbodley@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] A123 ebay update
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <161eeb590911162308h6af833cft8261509826f037bd@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

they are factory second cells, I have them and some come with miss prints
other come with OCV lower than others.  Have not have a chance to test them
yet.  I wouldn't pay more than $5 if I was going to buy more, but I don't
think I will.

On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 1:22 AM, AMPhibian <amp_phibian@...> wrote:

>
> Pretty active forum here:   http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/
> http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/
> also here:
> http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=7
> http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=7
>
> m gol wrote:
> >
> >
> > Also, is there another forum, where there's more discussion going on?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Mike
> > Golub
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://n4.nabble.com/A123-ebay-update-tp621962p622145.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
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Message: 12
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 00:17:16 -0800
From: Victor Tikhonov <ac@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Performance vs temperature..........it SUCKS!
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B025C0C.5000300@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Bob Rice wrote:

>>> few hundred REAL English MILES, not wimpy K's!?

That's a new one... Whatsa difference between wimpy km and normal one?
I'd like to know.

>> I thought MILES were for those wimps who didn't like to count as high ;)
>    Like buying GAS in Litres, NOBODY wants to count zillions of itty bitty
> liters!

Err, except for Americans, EVERYBODY ELSE wants to (and does) count in
liters.

But hey, it's a free country, welcome to keep pretending that the rest
of the world does not exist.

Victor



------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 00:34:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Otmar <Otlist09@...>
Subject: [EVDL]  Tango on Jay Lenos Garage
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <1258446877353-622629.post@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


The Tango was recently featured on Jay Leno's Garage. I thought it was well
represented.
http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/at-the-garage/electric/tango-electric/


-----
-Otmar-

914 EV, California Poppy, Zilla research vehicle.
http://evcl.com/914/

The Zilla factory.
http://www.evcomponents.com/

Zilla Support is still at:
http://cafeelectric.com/Ssupport.php
--
View this message in context:
http://n4.nabble.com/Tango-on-Jay-Lenos-Garage-tp622629p622629.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.



------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 01:41:09 -0800
From: Jon Bishop <jon.the.wise.gdrive@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Start up a RENT YOUR PACK OF BATTERIES store
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <1B88C128-0083-4BC4-AB75-60334A0BD906@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes

This would be a good business model to put next door to an EV
conversion business...

On Nov 16, 2009, at 8:59 AM, Dennis Miles wrote:

> To my compatriots on the best EV list on the net,  (imho)
>
> I was driving thru downtown and upon seeing a shop I have noticed
> before
> who is obviously doing well, SOMETHING CLICKED,  That very successful
> business RENTS Wheels and sells tires to fit The really Fancy 18 to
> 26 inch
> diameter rims which fit the thin but wide tires popular today.
>
> And I said to myself,"Why just let car dealers rent the batteries
> for the
> new or existing EVs?" We don't limit only Dealers to brake work or
> tire
> sales.
>
> We need someone to start up "RENT YOUR PACK" (Or other suitable
> name...)
> for EV batteries, No money down, just a small "Administrative fee"
> and NEW
> batteries are installed in your EV.
>



------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 01:57:18 -0800
From: Jon Bishop <jon.the.wise.gdrive@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
	 Business model discussion...
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <33CD4216-9565-41A2-9AF3-E4EC18D8A863@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes

Dave,

While I agree with you on the electricity, the better place business
model isn't about the electricity so much as it is about the amount of
electricity you run in and out of their batteries... they want to
track how many cycles you put them through, and recoup the cost of the
battery that they are providing with a lease. If they are unable to
monitor your charging, they won't be able to know how much use the
battery actually gets... I think that there will be plenty of room for
several different business models... I hope that parking meters will
become charge stations, where you plug your car in, put your quarters
in the meter, and get X minutes of charge/parking time.

~Jon


On Nov 16, 2009, at 10:39 AM, dave cover wrote:

> Doug
>
> I agree about Better Place. Seems like they are too interested in
> keeping their fingers in my charging. The cost of charging should be
> based on the cost of electricity. We already have a fine charging
> network. It's our current electric grid. Anyone that wants to make it
> more complicated or proprietary is just looking for a way to make more
> money off of the masses. Don't control me or monitor me. Just let me
> plug in for a fair price.
>
> Dave Cover
>
> On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 7:50 PM, Douglas A. Stansfield
> <Doug@...> wrote:
>> Dear Jerry,
>>
>> You bring up Better Place and the business model they have about
>> pricing on
>> a per mile basis.  I currently dislike the Better Place business
>> model as
>> they will be charging us based on the ICE cost per mile while there
>> real EV
>> cost per mile is substantially less.  There business model seems to
>> work
>> great in countries that have a high cost of entry for gas power
>> vehicles
>> (ie. Israel and Denmark) but with the gas friendly environment in
>> the US
>> (inexpensive right now) it makes their positioning (Better Place) a
>> tougher
>> sell IMO.
>>
>> Also, since there are going to be multiple "EV Charging Networks"
>> springing
>> up (Coulomb and Better Place) while I sell www.GreenlighAC.com
>> charging
>> stations that are "non-networked" and thus allow people to charge
>> without
>> the "network costs".
>>
>> I appreciate other viewpoints on this as I would love access to
>> charging
>> stations but don't really want the government, the insurance
>> companies or
>> anybody else keeping track of how many miles I drive.
>>
>> Look forward to the discussion.
>>
>>
>> Sincerely;
>>
>> Douglas A. Stansfield
>> President
>> www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
>> 973-875-6276 (office)
>> 973-670-9208 (cell)
>> 973-440-1619 (fax)
>>
>> WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
>> And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...]
>> On Behalf
>> Of jerryd
>> Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 10:53 AM
>> To: dhymers@...; jerryd@...; Electric Vehicle Discussion
>> List
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost
>>
>>
>>
>>             Hi Dave and All,
>>
>>                  I've been saying for yrs there is no
>> reason EV's need to cost more than ICE's.  They are simple
>> with far less parts as the motor weighs far less and only
>> has 3 moving parts, no transmission needed, the controller,
>> charger are cheap in quantity and batteries are paid for by
>> the tax credit. GM and I expect others are buying Lithium
>> batteries for $.30/wthr or less which is under seal lead
>> battery costs.
>>                  With battery swapping as A Better Place is
>> doing, the battery cost, risk is by them with you just
>> paying a by mile charge for battery and electricity with
>> unlimited range, cost shouldn't be any more than an ICE and
>> less fuel cost including battery than an ICE.
>>                  I think these will be hot sellers  by both
>> the public and gov, utility, other fleets so get your order
>> in early. A Better Place already ordered 100k of them to
>> sell where they will have swapping/charging stations.
>>                  Ford too will have the Focus EV ready for
>> when gas hits $4-5/gal next yr and since it's based on the
>> new lightweight Focus glider, it can be ramped up fast too
>> to meet the demand when gas goes up. In 2 yrs they will have
>> multiple Plug in hybrids, EV's like the Transit Van coming
>> out next yr, all based on production chassis that can easily
>> be switched from ICE to EV drive.
>>                  All the other big car companies can't ramp
>> up  as they are just doing prototype production lines of few
>> EV's because they don't want to produce them that won't be
>> able to meet demand for 3-4 yrs.
>>                   Those that invest in stock I think Nissan
>> and Ford are good bets as they are preparing for the future
>> in a smart way.
>>                   Has anyone else noticed the Jay Leno's
>> racing Focus EV on his show is getting faster as the battery
>> pack gets used?
>>
>>                                      Jerry Dycus
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message Follows -----
>> From: Dave Hymers <dhymers@...>
>> To: jerryd@..., Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> <ev@...>
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost
>> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 20:13:27 -0700
>>
>>> I think we all hope they can really pull it off and the
>>> market responds well.
>>> good luck nissan, I know if I was currently buying this
>>> would be top of my list.
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> http://www.evalbum.com/2149
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



------------------------------

Message: 16
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 11:54:01 +0000
From: Evan Tuer <evan.tuer@...>
Subject: [EVDL] Heater relay for 120V
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <cc7432af0911170354r7882e3cch166359f0c05c9c37@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 6:28 AM, David Nelson <gizmoev@...> wrote:

>
> My main question is where can I get a relay with a 12V coil that can
> handle this application? Also, what gauge of wire should I run for the
> high voltage lines?

I know you found a relay now, but I recently bought some relays myself
for the same job (but on a 120V car) and want to mention them.  These
are a new range, miniature versions of the popular Albright contactor
which many people use for the main switch on their car.

It has a 12V continuous coil and can carry 80A.  It has bolt / stud
terminals for the high voltage side.  It has magnetic blowouts and is
a proper double-break contactor, but is only about twice the size of a
normal automotive relay.

Higher voltages are probably also OK at typical heater currents, or
with a snubber, but obviously that will need some experimentation.

It costs a bit less than a P&B relay.  They are built to order but I
got some samples and am pretty happy with them.  If anyone is
interested let me know and I can probably supply one.



------------------------------

Message: 17
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 07:13:25 -0500
From: Collin Kidder <collink@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lithium Batteries...
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <4B029365.50802@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

I bought my BMS from EVComponents but actually went with www.enginer.us
for the batteries. They've got the 40AH Thundersky cells. I buddy paired
the cells for 80AH and 100 cells in serial. Their prices can be cheaper
than EVComponents and they've got stock in the US so you might not even
have to wait for batteries. I went with money in hand and actually
picked up all of the batteries myself.

On 11/16/2009 4:42 PM, James R. Parish wrote:
> I have been off-list for a while, who has 40Ah and 100Ah Lithium cells
> for sale in the US now?  I need a 72V pack. I need pricing too.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>



------------------------------

Message: 18
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 07:49:05 -0500
From: "Douglas A. Stansfield" <Doug@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
	 Business model discussion...
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <01c401ca6784$596892d0$0c39b870$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Dear Dave,

I agree with you and that is why I chose to align myself with a company that
is "non-network" and using the Grid to help charge up the cars at the
parking garage or other location.

While the idea of linking in communication to get a text message when my car
is finished charging is a "cool" idea, I don?t want to pay by the mile for
the privilege.


Sincerely;

Douglas A. Stansfield
President
www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
973-875-6276 (office)
973-670-9208 (cell)
973-440-1619 (fax)

WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS







-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
Of dave cover
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 1:39 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place - Business
model discussion...

Doug

I agree about Better Place. Seems like they are too interested in
keeping their fingers in my charging. The cost of charging should be
based on the cost of electricity. We already have a fine charging
network. It's our current electric grid. Anyone that wants to make it
more complicated or proprietary is just looking for a way to make more
money off of the masses. Don't control me or monitor me. Just let me
plug in for a fair price.

Dave Cover

On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 7:50 PM, Douglas A. Stansfield
<Doug@...> wrote:
> Dear Jerry,
>
> You bring up Better Place and the business model they have about pricing
on
> a per mile basis. ?I currently dislike the Better Place business model as
> they will be charging us based on the ICE cost per mile while there real
EV
> cost per mile is substantially less. ?There business model seems to work
> great in countries that have a high cost of entry for gas power vehicles
> (ie. Israel and Denmark) but with the gas friendly environment in the US
> (inexpensive right now) it makes their positioning (Better Place) a
tougher
> sell IMO.
>
> Also, since there are going to be multiple "EV Charging Networks"
springing
> up (Coulomb and Better Place) while I sell www.GreenlighAC.com charging
> stations that are "non-networked" and thus allow people to charge without
> the "network costs".
>
> I appreciate other viewpoints on this as I would love access to charging
> stations but don't really want the government, the insurance companies or
> anybody else keeping track of how many miles I drive.
>
> Look forward to the discussion.
>
>
> Sincerely;
>
> Douglas A. Stansfield
> President
> www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
> 973-875-6276 (office)
> 973-670-9208 (cell)
> 973-440-1619 (fax)
>
> WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
> And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On
Behalf
> Of jerryd
> Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 10:53 AM
> To: dhymers@...; jerryd@...; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost
>
>
>
> ? ? ? ? ? ? Hi Dave and All,
>
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?I've been saying for yrs there is no
> reason EV's need to cost more than ICE's. ?They are simple
> with far less parts as the motor weighs far less and only
> has 3 moving parts, no transmission needed, the controller,
> charger are cheap in quantity and batteries are paid for by
> the tax credit. GM and I expect others are buying Lithium
> batteries for $.30/wthr or less which is under seal lead
> battery costs.
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?With battery swapping as A Better Place is
> doing, the battery cost, risk is by them with you just
> paying a by mile charge for battery and electricity with
> unlimited range, cost shouldn't be any more than an ICE and
> less fuel cost including battery than an ICE.
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?I think these will be hot sellers ?by both
> the public and gov, utility, other fleets so get your order
> in early. A Better Place already ordered 100k of them to
> sell where they will have swapping/charging stations.
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Ford too will have the Focus EV ready for
> when gas hits $4-5/gal next yr and since it's based on the
> new lightweight Focus glider, it can be ramped up fast too
> to meet the demand when gas goes up. In 2 yrs they will have
> multiple Plug in hybrids, EV's like the Transit Van coming
> out next yr, all based on production chassis that can easily
> be switched from ICE to EV drive.
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?All the other big car companies can't ramp
> up ?as they are just doing prototype production lines of few
> EV's because they don't want to produce them that won't be
> able to meet demand for 3-4 yrs.
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Those that invest in stock I think Nissan
> and Ford are good bets as they are preparing for the future
> in a smart way.
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Has anyone else noticed the Jay Leno's
> racing Focus EV on his show is getting faster as the battery
> pack gets used?
>
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Jerry Dycus
>
>
> ----- Original Message Follows -----
> From: Dave Hymers <dhymers@...>
> To: jerryd@..., Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> <ev@...>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost
> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 20:13:27 -0700
>
>>I think we all hope they can really pull it off and the
>>market responds well.
>>good luck nissan, I know if I was currently buying this
>>would be top of my list.
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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>
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>



--
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------------------------------

Message: 19
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 07:53:37 -0500
From: "Douglas A. Stansfield" <Doug@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
	 Business model discussion...
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <01c501ca6784$fb656270$f2302750$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dear Jon,

Seems like they could track the battery charging cycles on the battery
without charging the customer by the mile.

Parking meter idea is a good one....


Sincerely;

Douglas A. Stansfield
President
www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
973-875-6276 (office)
973-670-9208 (cell)
973-440-1619 (fax)

WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS





-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
Of Jon Bishop
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 4:57 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place - Business
model discussion...

Dave,

While I agree with you on the electricity, the better place business
model isn't about the electricity so much as it is about the amount of
electricity you run in and out of their batteries... they want to
track how many cycles you put them through, and recoup the cost of the
battery that they are providing with a lease. If they are unable to
monitor your charging, they won't be able to know how much use the
battery actually gets... I think that there will be plenty of room for
several different business models... I hope that parking meters will
become charge stations, where you plug your car in, put your quarters
in the meter, and get X minutes of charge/parking time.

~Jon


On Nov 16, 2009, at 10:39 AM, dave cover wrote:

> Doug
>
> I agree about Better Place. Seems like they are too interested in
> keeping their fingers in my charging. The cost of charging should be
> based on the cost of electricity. We already have a fine charging
> network. It's our current electric grid. Anyone that wants to make it
> more complicated or proprietary is just looking for a way to make more
> money off of the masses. Don't control me or monitor me. Just let me
> plug in for a fair price.
>
> Dave Cover
>
> On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 7:50 PM, Douglas A. Stansfield
> <Doug@...> wrote:
>> Dear Jerry,
>>
>> You bring up Better Place and the business model they have about
>> pricing on
>> a per mile basis.  I currently dislike the Better Place business
>> model as
>> they will be charging us based on the ICE cost per mile while there
>> real EV
>> cost per mile is substantially less.  There business model seems to
>> work
>> great in countries that have a high cost of entry for gas power
>> vehicles
>> (ie. Israel and Denmark) but with the gas friendly environment in
>> the US
>> (inexpensive right now) it makes their positioning (Better Place) a
>> tougher
>> sell IMO.
>>
>> Also, since there are going to be multiple "EV Charging Networks"
>> springing
>> up (Coulomb and Better Place) while I sell www.GreenlighAC.com
>> charging
>> stations that are "non-networked" and thus allow people to charge
>> without
>> the "network costs".
>>
>> I appreciate other viewpoints on this as I would love access to
>> charging
>> stations but don't really want the government, the insurance
>> companies or
>> anybody else keeping track of how many miles I drive.
>>
>> Look forward to the discussion.
>>
>>
>> Sincerely;
>>
>> Douglas A. Stansfield
>> President
>> www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
>> 973-875-6276 (office)
>> 973-670-9208 (cell)
>> 973-440-1619 (fax)
>>
>> WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
>> And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...]
>> On Behalf
>> Of jerryd
>> Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 10:53 AM
>> To: dhymers@...; jerryd@...; Electric Vehicle Discussion
>> List
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost
>>
>>
>>
>>             Hi Dave and All,
>>
>>                  I've been saying for yrs there is no
>> reason EV's need to cost more than ICE's.  They are simple
>> with far less parts as the motor weighs far less and only
>> has 3 moving parts, no transmission needed, the controller,
>> charger are cheap in quantity and batteries are paid for by
>> the tax credit. GM and I expect others are buying Lithium
>> batteries for $.30/wthr or less which is under seal lead
>> battery costs.
>>                  With battery swapping as A Better Place is
>> doing, the battery cost, risk is by them with you just
>> paying a by mile charge for battery and electricity with
>> unlimited range, cost shouldn't be any more than an ICE and
>> less fuel cost including battery than an ICE.
>>                  I think these will be hot sellers  by both
>> the public and gov, utility, other fleets so get your order
>> in early. A Better Place already ordered 100k of them to
>> sell where they will have swapping/charging stations.
>>                  Ford too will have the Focus EV ready for
>> when gas hits $4-5/gal next yr and since it's based on the
>> new lightweight Focus glider, it can be ramped up fast too
>> to meet the demand when gas goes up. In 2 yrs they will have
>> multiple Plug in hybrids, EV's like the Transit Van coming
>> out next yr, all based on production chassis that can easily
>> be switched from ICE to EV drive.
>>                  All the other big car companies can't ramp
>> up  as they are just doing prototype production lines of few
>> EV's because they don't want to produce them that won't be
>> able to meet demand for 3-4 yrs.
>>                   Those that invest in stock I think Nissan
>> and Ford are good bets as they are preparing for the future
>> in a smart way.
>>                   Has anyone else noticed the Jay Leno's
>> racing Focus EV on his show is getting faster as the battery
>> pack gets used?
>>
>>                                      Jerry Dycus
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message Follows -----
>> From: Dave Hymers <dhymers@...>
>> To: jerryd@..., Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> <ev@...>
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost
>> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 20:13:27 -0700
>>
>>> I think we all hope they can really pull it off and the
>>> market responds well.
>>> good luck nissan, I know if I was currently buying this
>>> would be top of my list.
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> http://www.evalbum.com/2149
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

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------------------------------

Message: 20
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 08:27:36 -0500
From: "Douglas A. Stansfield" <Doug@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Start up a RENT YOUR PACK OF BATTERIES store
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <01d201ca6789$bab0a640$3011f2c0$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

> We need someone to start up "RENT YOUR PACK" (Or other suitable
> name...)
> for EV batteries, No money down, just a small "Administrative fee"
> and NEW
> batteries are installed in your EV.

I would gladly start this business but your expectations listed above are a
little impractical.

Lets say I rent you a $7000 pack of Lithium's (size and amp hours and all
that aside for a minute).

Lets say they last 5 years on average (I know some say they will last 10
years but I can't be sure about that now)

Lets say I want to make money doing this and I guess that you have covered
that in your "small administration fee" listed above.

I assume you are taking the pack and installing it, thus no labor charges.

I could probably make this work for a monthly rental fee of $150 a month.
This was some quick calculating and I would have to do a lot more research
but is a $150 a month battery rental fee in an acceptable purchase price for
a typical EV-er?

I would love to know.....


Sincerely;

Douglas A. Stansfield
President
www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
973-875-6276 (office)
973-670-9208 (cell)
973-440-1619 (fax)

WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS







-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
Of Jon Bishop
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 4:41 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Start up a RENT YOUR PACK OF BATTERIES store

This would be a good business model to put next door to an EV
conversion business...

On Nov 16, 2009, at 8:59 AM, Dennis Miles wrote:

> To my compatriots on the best EV list on the net,  (imho)
>
> I was driving thru downtown and upon seeing a shop I have noticed
> before
> who is obviously doing well, SOMETHING CLICKED,  That very successful
> business RENTS Wheels and sells tires to fit The really Fancy 18 to
> 26 inch
> diameter rims which fit the thin but wide tires popular today.
>
> And I said to myself,"Why just let car dealers rent the batteries
> for the
> new or existing EVs?" We don't limit only Dealers to brake work or
> tire
> sales.
>
> We need someone to start up "RENT YOUR PACK" (Or other suitable
> name...)
> for EV batteries, No money down, just a small "Administrative fee"
> and NEW
> batteries are installed in your EV.
>

_______________________________________________
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------------------------------

Message: 21
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 08:35:23 -0500
From: Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Start up a RENT YOUR PACK OF BATTERIES store
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <2b4886ce0911170535i5e68638eja07fa764ce5860f4@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 11:40 PM, Mike Nickerson <mike@...>wrote:

> I wonder if this is really going to have a chance to work.  I also wonder
> how much the market will really come to play in this (referring back to
> Bill
> Dube's message).  My concern is that you (the consumer) may not have much
> choice on where to lease your battery.  The manufacturers could easily
> write
> the purchase contracts to limit you to their batteries (or the companies
> they have partnered with).
>
> I work with LaserJet printers where the business model is widely understood
> to be based around the consumables revenue (toner cartridges) over the long
> term.  However, most printer manufacturers sell you the cartridge and don't
> keep ownership of the empty shell.  This has led to a healthy secondary
> market for refilled and remanufactured toner cartridges.
>
> If car manufacturers require a battery lease AS A CONDITION OF PURCHASE,
> how
> will this secondary market get started?  Where will the packs come from?
> Who would buy/lease them from a third-party when they're already under
> contract with the car manufacturer?
>
> Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On
> Behalf
> Of Dennis Miles
> Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 9:59 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: [EVDL] Start up a RENT YOUR PACK OF BATTERIES store
>
> To my compatriots on the best EV list on the net,  (imho)
>
>  I was driving thru downtown and upon seeing a shop I have noticed before
> who is obviously doing well, SOMETHING CLICKED,  That very successful
> business RENTS Wheels and sells tires to fit The really Fancy 18 to 26 inch
> diameter rims which fit the thin but wide tires popular today.
>
>  And I said to myself,"Why just let car dealers rent the batteries for the
> new or existing EVs?" We don't limit only Dealers to brake work or tire
> sales.
>
>  We need someone to start up "RENT YOUR PACK" (Or other suitable name...)
> for EV batteries, No money down, just a small "Administrative fee" and NEW
> batteries are installed in your EV.
>
>  Of course a GOOD "BMS" must be included and a lien on the auto title to
> secure the contract then the EV Owner only pays a small rent monthly and
> after a GUARANTEED period  during which the battery pack is warranted to
> provide good service, then the lien is lifted from the title and no more
> rental payments made, after that you can continue to use the pack for the
> remaining life and eventually buy a new pack or rent again.
>
>  If you want to sell the EV during the rental time, a contract clause would
> stipulate paying off the pack or transferring the lease. Many other details
> would need to be addressed for which I suggest contacting an attorney and a
> good accountant.
>
>  But for the Entrepreneur, this might be the business of a lifetime, and
> the
> first one successful will make a great model for Franchising.
>
> Do you need an EV related Career??    And HEY you EV dealers of batteries
> add to your business by eliminating "Sticker Shock" for a new Pack of
> Lithium Phosphates...
>
> This is one of the many types of Support Businesses for EVs the world will
> need and SOON!  It takes a year to organize and become established, Now is
> the time to get started to open for next fall.
>
> I claim no rights to this idea so if it interests you, make it your own, I
> feel it could help the proliferation of Electric Vehicles and that is my
> only interest
>
> Regards,
>
>    Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
> Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
> Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
>       Phone (863) 289 - 0690
> "Mentoring, Small Group Instruction,
> and Hands-On training
> for the EV Technicians:
> Building, Converting, Repairing,
> and Servicing the
> Electric Vehicles of Today,
> and the Future."
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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>
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20091116/2c61094c/attac
> hment.html
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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>
> _______________________________________________
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> ========================you can't buy a car without tires
> either...============
>
Mike,  You make some good points.  But you can't buy a car without tires or
brakes but I see a lot of tire and brake stores doing a brisk business.

  It depends upon the service life of the first set of batteries leased or
sold to you by the dealer.  And how long the service life of the vehicle is.
  If we accept "Planed Obsolescence" as the auto makers business plan and
they only lease the EV for two or three years then "Recycle" them for scrap
salvage only. that wipes out 75% of the auto market today, "Used Cars" I
hope that isn't going to happen.

EVs can last 20 or more years. (My old '94 Dodge Pickup is still running
strong at 175,000 miles, and an EV should last longer...) If the batteries
are perfected to last forever then forget leasing, but if they last 5 or 6
years and replacements cost $15,000 then leasing could be very popular. or
if the manuf. only gives a 3 year lease then an affordable replacement pack
could keep the EV on the road and allow a "Used Market" hence Leasing as an
alternative to pack outright cash purchase looks "Enticing!"

  Restraint of trade by requiring a particular source is like specifying a
specific brand of tire and I doubt it would be enforceable, especially
after warranty expiration.

Regards,

     Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
        Phone (863) 289 - 0690
"Mentoring, Small Group Instruction,
and Hands-On training
for the EV Technicians:
Building, Converting, Repairing,
and Servicing the
Electric Vehicles of Today,
and the Future."
-------------- next part --------------
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t.html


------------------------------

Message: 22
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 05:55:53 -0800
From: Jeff Shanab <jshanab@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <4B02AB69.1050002@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

So... Can you buy the leaf then not pay  the lease and give back the
battery and keep the car? (ultimate glider?)
Now you can fit any battery you want in there?
Do Aftermarket battery packs void warranty? M

I am thinking they should open the protocols used and let the battery
companies duke it out. Give the end user something to choose.

Like the days when I was in high school wheere you were allowed to mod
your car, you had a sticker for the windshields for the products you
had, Carter, Holly, etc.

Let Duracell and the bunny duke it out on TV.

> -------------------------------------------------
> From: "Willie McKemie" <mckemie@...>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost
>
>> On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 02:50:21PM -0500, jerryd wrote:
>>>                  Nissan is going to price the Leaf EV about
>>> the same as an ICE!!
>>
>> That's probably with a rented battery.
>
> yes it is. They announced a bit ago (about a month?) that the battery
> would only leased, the idea being that at the end of the lease term it
> is still useful for power grid stability.
>
> Just looked up the original story I got it from
> http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/10/21/leaf_battery_rental/ selected
> quotes:
> Under the terms of the deal, customers will buy the Leaf outright and
> then lease the battery for a fixed monthly fee.
>
> Nissan plans to start selling the Leaf from late 2010, but hasn't yet
> been brave enough to release a firm combined price for the e-car and
> battery rental scheme.
>
> For example, Nissan envisages the second-hand batteries being used to
> iron out fluctuations in supply from solar and wind power generation.
>
>
>
>
> I hope they also make them available for purchase, I'd really hate to
> see the LEAF2 have a different battery form factor so everyone that
> bought a LEAF is screwed.
>                            Joe
>
>



------------------------------

Message: 23
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 06:03:15 -0800 (PST)
From: rodhower@...
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heater relay for 120V
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <638115.70540.qm@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Who's the manufacturer and what's the part number?
Thanks,
Rod

--- On Tue, 11/17/09, Evan Tuer <evan.tuer@...> wrote:

> From: Evan Tuer <evan.tuer@...>
> Subject: [EVDL] Heater relay for 120V
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
> Date: Tuesday, November 17, 2009, 6:54 AM
> On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 6:28 AM,
> David Nelson <gizmoev@...>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > My main question is where can I get a relay with a 12V
> coil that can
> > handle this application? Also, what gauge of wire
> should I run for the
> > high voltage lines?
>
> I know you found a relay now, but I recently bought some
> relays myself
> for the same job (but on a 120V car) and want to mention
> them.? These
> are a new range, miniature versions of the popular Albright
> contactor
> which many people use for the main switch on their car.
>
> It has a 12V continuous coil and can carry 80A.? It
> has bolt / stud
> terminals for the high voltage side.? It has magnetic
> blowouts and is
> a proper double-break contactor, but is only about twice
> the size of a
> normal automotive relay.
>
> Higher voltages are probably also OK at typical heater
> currents, or
> with a snubber, but obviously that will need some
> experimentation.
>
> It costs a bit less than a P&B relay.? They are
> built to order but I
> got some samples and am pretty happy with them.? If
> anyone is
> interested let me know and I can probably supply one.
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
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>
>



------------------------------

Message: 24
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 06:05:11 -0800
From: Jeff Shanab <jshanab@...>
Subject: [EVDL]  Carbon-Lead battery 5.5x energy density
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <4B02AD97.7060300@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Every battery chemistry has a theoretical energy density and a practical one.
Lead's practial is about 1/3 it's theoretical and Lithium ion is at about 2/3
for cobalt and about  1/4 or less for LiFePo4. (we are talking energy not power
density)

Besides the natural trade off overhead to get the energy in and out and contain
the environment, Practical manufacturing costs dominate.

Often times claims like this are their estimated claims to 90% of theoretical vs
the lowest density competitor they can find with a known name.

Carbon-lead is NOT a chemistry, unlike carbon in a lithium battery. It adds
nothing to the capacity. :-(
It is just a way to reduce the overhead weight.


>  Is this made of Unobtanium ?
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Bob,
>
> That looks great 5.5x energy density of lead for carbon-lead.  I saw an
article in BEST (batteries energy & storage mag) Lead is not Dead on adding
carbon fiber to greatly improve the battery.  If it's true it would outdo the
LiFePO4 batteries with all that pesky required cell balancing.
>
> Best Regards,
> Mark
>
>
>
>
> From: Bob E. Farmer
> Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 1:19 PM
> To: Mark E. Hanson
> Subject:



------------------------------

Message: 25
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 09:19:09 -0500
From: Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Start up a RENT YOUR PACK OF BATTERIES store
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <2b4886ce0911170619g4a1fc755m16ec367248268cd0@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 8:27 AM, Douglas A. Stansfield <
Doug@...> wrote:

> > We need someone to start up "RENT YOUR PACK" (Or other suitable
> > name...)
> > for EV batteries, No money down, just a small "Administrative fee"
> > and NEW
> > batteries are installed in your EV.
>
> I would gladly start this business but your expectations listed above are a
> little impractical.
>
> Lets say I rent you a $7000 pack of Lithium's (size and amp hours and all
> that aside for a minute).
>
> Lets say they last 5 years on average (I know some say they will last 10
> years but I can't be sure about that now)
>
> Lets say I want to make money doing this and I guess that you have covered
> that in your "small administration fee" listed above.
>
> I assume you are taking the pack and installing it, thus no labor charges.
>
> I could probably make this work for a monthly rental fee of $150 a month.
> This was some quick calculating and I would have to do a lot more research
> but is a $150 a month battery rental fee in an acceptable purchase price
> for
> a typical EV-er?
>
> I would love to know.....
>
>
> Sincerely;
>
> Douglas A. Stansfield
> President
> www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
> 973-875-6276 (office)
> 973-670-9208 (cell)
> 973-440-1619 (fax)
>
> WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
> And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On
> Behalf
> Of Jon Bishop
> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 4:41 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Start up a RENT YOUR PACK OF BATTERIES store
>
> This would be a good business model to put next door to an EV
> conversion business...
>
> On Nov 16, 2009, at 8:59 AM, Dennis Miles wrote:
>
> > To my compatriots on the best EV list on the net,  (imho)
> >
> > I was driving thru downtown and upon seeing a shop I have noticed
> > before
> > who is obviously doing well, SOMETHING CLICKED,  That very successful
> > business RENTS Wheels and sells tires to fit The really Fancy 18 to
> > 26 inch
> > diameter rims which fit the thin but wide tires popular today.
> >
> > And I said to myself,"Why just let car dealers rent the batteries
> > for the
> > new or existing EVs?" We don't limit only Dealers to brake work or
> > tire
> > sales.
> >
> > We need someone to start up "RENT YOUR PACK" (Or other suitable
> > name...)
> > for EV batteries, No money down, just a small "Administrative fee"
> > and NEW
> > batteries are installed in your EV.
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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>
> _______________________________________________
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> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> ======================Douglas, let me clarify a few
> details...===============
>
Douglas,   You're asking $2000 profit on a $7000 retail sale. (That is $150
x60=$9,000) But  i'm thinking purchase for wholesale at $6,000 and sell a
$500 BMS and Installation fee, and perhaps a Charger too with a lien on the
EV Title to secure the note.  So they pay one months rent plus the $500 and
perhaps for a charger initially and continue paying $135 monthly for 60
months  So I make $2,000 in time plus the profit on the BMS
and Installation, and perhaps a charger sale too...

Compare that to a LEAD pack at $4,000 with a 3 year life costs out at $111
monthly so it is only 25 more bucks a month, and with guaranteed service for
the five years...and the likelihood of continuing an additional five years
use,  after the lease is paid and they own the pack  (It is a "Lease
Purchase Plan")  Sounds like a GREAT Bargain compared to LEAD!

Of course the MARKETING is the key to SUCCESS.  A lot of people LIKE
Leasing... They lease their Furniture, the Microwave, The TV, even their
CAR. and in doing so pay 150% to 200% of retail price in their lease
contract payments. (It is the "No Credit Check" for some, and lack of
investment capital for others.)

So I hope this isn't a total waste of your time and mine, because I respect
your business savvy.

Respectfully,

     Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
        Phone (863) 289 - 0690
"Mentoring, Small Group Instruction,
and Hands-On training
for the EV Technicians:
Building, Converting, Repairing,
and Servicing the
Electric Vehicles of Today,
and the Future."
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Message: 26
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 14:22:42 +0000
From: Evan Tuer <evan.tuer@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heater relay for 120V
To: rodhower@..., Electric Vehicle Discussion List
	 <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <cc7432af0911170622u6ce8d014v3d49c95d8c26cd8f@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 2:03 PM,  <rodhower@...> wrote:
> Who's the manufacturer and what's the part number?

Albright, SW60.


> Rod
>
> --- On Tue, 11/17/09, Evan Tuer <evan.tuer@...> wrote:
>
>> From: Evan Tuer <evan.tuer@...>
>> Subject: [EVDL] Heater relay for 120V
>> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
>> Date: Tuesday, November 17, 2009, 6:54 AM
>> On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 6:28 AM,
>> David Nelson <gizmoev@...>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > My main question is where can I get a relay with a 12V
>> coil that can
>> > handle this application? Also, what gauge of wire
>> should I run for the
>> > high voltage lines?
>>
>> I know you found a relay now, but I recently bought some
>> relays myself
>> for the same job (but on a 120V car) and want to mention
>> them.? These
>> are a new range, miniature versions of the popular Albright
>> contactor
>> which many people use for the main switch on their car.
>>
>> It has a 12V continuous coil and can carry 80A.? It
>> has bolt / stud
>> terminals for the high voltage side.? It has magnetic
>> blowouts and is
>> a proper double-break contactor, but is only about twice
>> the size of a
>> normal automotive relay.
>>
>> Higher voltages are probably also OK at typical heater
>> currents, or
>> with a snubber, but obviously that will need some
>> experimentation.
>>
>> It costs a bit less than a P&B relay.? They are
>> built to order but I
>> got some samples and am pretty happy with them.? If
>> anyone is
>> interested let me know and I can probably supply one.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>



------------------------------

Message: 27
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 10:12:47 -0500
From: Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tango on Jay Lenos Garage
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <2b4886ce0911170712x1982341fk29d5c3d162566717@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 3:34 AM, Otmar <Otlist09@...> wrote:

>
> The Tango was recently featured on Jay Leno's Garage. I thought it was well
> represented.
> http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/at-the-garage/electric/tango-electric/
>
>
> -----
> -Otmar-
>
> 914 EV, California Poppy, Zilla research vehicle.
> http://evcl.com/914/
>
> The Zilla factory.
> http://www.evcomponents.com/
>
> Zilla Support is still at:
> http://cafeelectric.com/Ssupport.php
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://n4.nabble.com/Tango-on-Jay-Lenos-Garage-tp622629p622629.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> =======================Jay Leno has done several EV on his Garage ========
Hi, Otmar,    Always enlightening to read your comments on EVDL. Jay puts a
new review on his "Garage" weekly (mol) and a hefty percentage this year
have been about EV s. 2, 3, & 4 wheeled...
  Regards,
     Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
        Phone (863) 289 - 0690
"Mentoring, Small Group Instruction,
and Hands-On training
for the EV Technicians:
Building, Converting, Repairing,
and Servicing the
Electric Vehicles of Today,
and the Future."
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Message: 28
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 11:14:36 -0400
From: Martin K <martin.klingensmith@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tango on Jay Lenos Garage
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <d8f29a7d0911170714h1eb10682k4f251fc5321f2010@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 4:34 AM, Otmar <Otlist09@...> wrote:
>
> The Tango was recently featured on Jay Leno's Garage. I thought it was well
> represented.
> http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/at-the-garage/electric/tango-electric/
>
>
> -----
> -Otmar-
>

It's obvious after watching the video that Jay really likes this car.
That's nothing but good news. There aren't many people who are going
to argue with Jay Leno.

--
Martin K.



------------------------------

_______________________________________________
EV@...
For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



End of EV Digest, Vol 28, Issue 23
**********************************

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (1)
#37639 From: ev-request@...
Date: Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:00 pm
Subject: EV Digest, Vol 28, Issue 24 		ev-request@...
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Today's Topics:

    1. To regulate or not, that is the question. (Lawrence Rhodes)
    2. How to reduce your 12 volt load (Roland Wiench)
    3. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost (Roger Heuckeroth)
    4. Zero on Jay Leno's garage. (Lawrence Rhodes)
    5. lithium Jet Escort running (Willie McKemie)
    6. Re: To regulate or not, that is the question. (David Dymaxion)
    7. Re: ESD plastic? (Roger Heuckeroth)
    8. Story from "Wayland Invitational Goes INTERNATIONAL (Steven Lough)
    9. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place - Business
       model discussion... (Roger Heuckeroth)
   10. Subject: Re:  Tango on Jay Lenos Garage (fred)
   11. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost (joe)
   12. Re: Lithium Batteries... (Willie McKemie)
   13. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place - Businessmodel
       discussion... (Bob Rice)
   14. Re: Story from "Wayland Invitational Goes INTERNATIONAL
       (Dave Hymers)
   15. Re: Heater relay for 120V (Peter Gabrielsson)
   16. Re: low profile tires (Lee Hart)
   17. Re: Start up a RENT YOUR PACK OF BATTERIES store (Jon Glauser)
   18. Re: low profile tires (Zeke Yewdall)
   19. Re: Business model discussion (Lee Hart)
   20. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost (Dennis Miles)
   21. Re: Start up a RENT YOUR PACK OF BATTERIES store (Lee Hart)
   22. Re: lithium Jet Escort running (Roger Heuckeroth)
   23. Re: lithium Jet Escort running (Willie McKemie)
   24. Re: Start up a RENT YOUR PACK OF BATTERIES store (Dennis Miles)
   25. Re: lithium Jet Escort running (Roger Heuckeroth)
   26. Thanks for Eboat help (Mark Hanson)
   27. Re: lithium Jet Escort running (Willie McKemie)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 07:19:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Lawrence Rhodes <primobassoon@...>
Subject: [EVDL] To regulate or not, that is the question.
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <749800.18128.qm@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

I had some very good luck with a battery pack of four 50 ah sealed batteries.  I
used no regulation as with my other sealed packs.  I used the pack lightly(1200
miles)over a period of almost three years.  The batteries were charged with a
Soneil charger.  The most powerful 48volt unit available.  I never ran the
vehicle over 12 miles. (51vdc was the lowest resting voltage I measured) I did
climb some hills and sagged the pack heavily a few times.  I carried 400 pound
loads up hills a few times.  But mostly it sat more than used sometimes for
weeks at a time.  The batteries were always on charge if not in use.  The day I
sold the bike we tested each battery as  took it from the Lepton scooter so we
could heft it into the pickup truck for it's ride to it's new home.  After a
half mile ride up a hill.  (Which was the deal maker) Each battery was 13.26
exactly.  I've measured fully charged batteries on this bike and they are
13.4vdc.  I say under certain
  conditions that regulation is not needed.  I know this is moderate to light use
of a pack but if a more aggressively used pack had this method used on it just
how aggressive can you be?  Is the Soneil the smartest charger in the pack? 
This is not my first good experience with tended batteries.  I did this with an
electric bicycle.  Same kind of smart charger.  Batteries perfect after 5 years
of light use.  I wonder if one could do this with a daily driver and going down
to 20 to 40% DOD?  I'm thinking much more and regulation would be needed. 
Another thing did I massage these batteries over time and prepare them for
heavier use?  Maybe these batteries will perform better and can be taken further
than a new pack?  Just some thoughts.  Lawrence Rhodes....



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 08:21:28 -0800
From: "Roland Wiench" <ev_7@...>
Subject: [EVDL] How to reduce your 12 volt load
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <BLU144-DS2D22E6E5A3062C81E2936BEA40@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

In my first EV, there was only about 0.02 amp addition load from the 12 volt
accessory battery during start up to run all the Cable Form contactors and
motor controller.

All these units use line volt power from the main battery to operated the
controller and all the contactors design at the pack voltage. These units
will still work even if the voltage drops way below 1.75 or to 2.8 volt
cell.

In fact the contactor is design to stay on line even if the voltage drops
all the way from 180 volt pack to about 12 volts.  If it ever the voltage
drop this low and the voltage starts to rise, the contactor will come on at
the 155 volts which is the minimum cut off voltage.

The 12 volt ignition switch only operated a Square D plug in 3 pole double
throw glass Square D relay with a 12 volt coil rated at 0.01 amp and
contacts at 250 vac.  This unit turns on the 180 volt main battery pack
voltage to all the contactors and motor controller.

As the main motor rpm comes up to about 350 rpm, a alternator comes on the
line, which now can charge the battery which hardly needs it and provides
all the other 12 volts source for a normal vehicle requirements.

I ran this set up for 27 years to 2002 when I install the Zilla controller.
Caf? Electric stated that this controller is use to control the main
contactor at 12 volts.  So I order a 12 volt coil for the Cable Form
contactor which is rated for 600 amps continuous and 2000 amps surge.

The first time I started up the EV, the 12 volt surge to this main contactor
took out the drivers in the Zilla motor controller.  I then replace the 12
volt coil in the main contactor with the high voltage contactor and use
another 12 volt plug in relay that is control by the motor controller and
turns the main pack voltage to this coil just like it does for the battery
pack safety contactors.

I use one 12 volt relay to control the main coil at 0.01 amps and another
one to control two battery safety contacts at 0.01 amps.  The Z1K takes 4
amps now instead of the additional 5 amps for the main contactor.  This
makes a total of 4.02 amps to start up the motor control system from the
battery or DC-DC converter.

This system has now been running for 7 years and 8 months with no problems.

Roland



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 11:04:58 -0500
From: Roger Heuckeroth <rheuckeroth@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <D110013D-9750-4038-8C5C-A3C365A79D47@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes


On Nov 16, 2009, at 11:20 AM, Bob Rice wrote:

>>
>> Dave Hymers wrote:
>> I think we all hope they can really pull it off and the market
>> responds
>> well.
>> good luck nissan, I know if I was currently buying this would be
>> top of my
>> list.
>>
>> Remember not so long ago when we thought that we would "never" see
>> a major
>> OEM EV mass-produced in our lifetime. It was the same story with
>> advanced
>> batteries and now we have LiFePo4, I think things will get really
>> exciting
>> when these vehicles and batteries start ending up in the auto
>> recycles
>> where we can buy used EV parts and start making some wild stuff.
>>
>> The next 10 years WILL be exciting, but what will we do when EVs
>> become
>> common place?
>
>     Retire?   Hell? I'll cross that bridge IF we come to it? Oh,
> maybe go
> back to playing with trains, etc?Sorta like WHAT to do with all the
> free
> power from  Over Unity?


The question is how hard will special interests fight against them
becoming common place?  What happens when they have lost 10% market
share?  How about 50%?

I can see it now the news headlines,  "2 Tillion Dollar Government
Bailout for Exxon-Mobil", "Big Oil Too Big to Fail",  "New EV Use Tax
Passed", "Congress Probes Tesla - Al Qaeda Link",



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 08:09:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Lawrence Rhodes <primobassoon@...>
Subject: [EVDL] Zero on Jay Leno's garage.
To: Zappylist <zappy@yahoogroups.com>, Electric Vehicle Discussion
	 List <ev@...>
Cc: "electric_vehicles_for_sale@yahoogroups.com"
	 <electric_vehicles_for_sale@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <132511.87261.qm@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/at-the-garage/motorcycles/2009-zero-motorcycles-ze\
ro-s/



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 09:44:13 -0600
From: Willie McKemie <mckemie@...>
Subject: [EVDL] lithium Jet Escort running
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <20091117154413.GT19099@c25>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

http://evalbum.com/1213

New text, no new photos yet.  I seem to be getting 150-200 wh/m; I
wonder if that is possible?  I rather doubt it.  The Hyundai gets no
better than 250.

--
Willie, ONWARD!  Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime  703 days  4 hours 37 minutes



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 08:13:53 -0800 (PST)
From: David Dymaxion <david_dymaxion@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] To regulate or not, that is the question.
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <982198.80640.qm@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Just another data point, I had the opposite experience.

I had read somewhere that you could get away with no regulators on short
strings, 48V or less. I also had 2 parallel strings of 4 batteries each.

I put all the batteries in parallel and got them all to the same voltage to
start, and then wired for 48V. With really high charging rates (hundreds of Amps
by towing behind a truck truck charging ) they stayed within hundredths of a
volt of each other.

With a 17 Amp charger they drifted to 0.5+ V out of balance in 3 cycles! I'm
going to do buddy-pair wiring and regulators.




________________________________
From: Lawrence Rhodes <primobassoon@...>
To: ev@...
Sent: Tue, November 17, 2009 8:19:39 AM
Subject: [EVDL] To regulate or not, that is the question.

I had some very good luck with a battery pack of four 50 ah sealed batteries.  I
used no regulation as with my other sealed packs.  I used the pack lightly(1200
miles)over a period of almost three years.  The batteries were charged with a
Soneil charger.  The most powerful 48volt unit available.  I never ran the
vehicle over 12 miles. (51vdc was the lowest resting voltage I measured) I did
climb some hills and sagged the pack heavily a few times.  I carried 400 pound
loads up hills a few times.  But mostly it sat more than used sometimes for
weeks at a time.  The batteries were always on charge if not in use.  The day I
sold the bike we tested each battery as  took it from the Lepton scooter so we
could heft it into the pickup truck for it's ride to it's new home.  After a
half mile ride up a hill.  (Which was the deal maker) Each battery was 13.26
exactly.  I've measured fully charged batteries on this bike and they are
13.4vdc.  I say under certain
conditions that regulation is not needed.  I know this is moderate to light use
of a pack but if a more aggressively used pack had this method used on it just
how aggressive can you be?  Is the Soneil the smartest charger in the pack? 
This is not my first good experience with tended batteries.  I did this with an
electric bicycle.  Same kind of smart charger.  Batteries perfect after 5 years
of light use.  I wonder if one could do this with a daily driver and going down
to 20 to 40% DOD?  I'm thinking much more and regulation would be needed. 
Another thing did I massage these batteries over time and prepare them for
heavier use?  Maybe these batteries will perform better and can be taken further
than a new pack?  Just some thoughts.  Lawrence Rhodes....

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Message: 7
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 11:25:49 -0500
From: Roger Heuckeroth <rheuckeroth@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ESD plastic?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <41BD04FF-2737-40C8-80D2-46343980438B@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed

How about an anti static coating?

On Nov 16, 2009, at 9:38 PM, Thor Johnson wrote:

> I have access to a CO2 laser cutter; I was thinking about cutting out
> nice covers for my battery pack (400V divided into 22 packs), but I'm
> using the eLithion BMS with its bare boards mounted topside, and I
> remembered that lexan & plexi have an inordinate static buildup
> issue....
>
>
>
> Is there a good, inexpensive ESD plastic I can use for the covers
> (ideally, it would be transparent/translucent, but I can drill holes)?
> Would the "ESD" material's resistance be enough for safety?
>
>
>
> -Thor Johnson
>
> (Getting Closer)
>
>
>
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------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 08:27:49 -0800
From: Steven Lough <stevenslough@...>
Subject: [EVDL] Story from "Wayland Invitational Goes INTERNATIONAL
To: seva@..., Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR
	 <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B02CF05.3050808@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed

A story from the Wayland Invitational this summer, has made it to the
International Voice of America, thanks to a Portland news man.

See story at:

http://www.voanews.com/english/AmericanLife/2009-11-16-voa46.cfm

( for international consumption, distances and speeds are METRIC ;)
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle,  WA  98115-7230
Day:  206 524 1351
Cell:   206 850 8535
e-mail: stevenslough@...
web:     http://www.seattleeva.org



------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 11:39:53 -0500
From: Roger Heuckeroth <rheuckeroth@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
	 Business model discussion...
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <38FF64D2-DAD9-42A6-89BE-5DE49CB17687@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes

The problem that I see with Better Place is that they are trying to
get a monopoly on the EV charging business.  We need healthy
competition.  The Leaf will probably only take a proprietary battery
that you have to obtain through Better Place.  If I can't buy the
battery, I won't buy the car.  Offering a lease option is fine, but
mandating use of their network is not.

On Nov 16, 2009, at 1:39 PM, dave cover wrote:

> Doug
>
> I agree about Better Place. Seems like they are too interested in
> keeping their fingers in my charging. The cost of charging should be
> based on the cost of electricity. We already have a fine charging
> network. It's our current electric grid. Anyone that wants to make it
> more complicated or proprietary is just looking for a way to make more
> money off of the masses. Don't control me or monitor me. Just let me
> plug in for a fair price.
>
> Dave Cover
>
> On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 7:50 PM, Douglas A. Stansfield
> <Doug@...> wrote:
>> Dear Jerry,
>>
>> You bring up Better Place and the business model they have about
>> pricing on
>> a per mile basis.  I currently dislike the Better Place business
>> model as
>> they will be charging us based on the ICE cost per mile while there
>> real EV
>> cost per mile is substantially less.  There business model seems to
>> work
>> great in countries that have a high cost of entry for gas power
>> vehicles
>> (ie. Israel and Denmark) but with the gas friendly environment in
>> the US
>> (inexpensive right now) it makes their positioning (Better Place) a
>> tougher
>> sell IMO.
>>
>> Also, since there are going to be multiple "EV Charging Networks"
>> springing
>> up (Coulomb and Better Place) while I sell www.GreenlighAC.com
>> charging
>> stations that are "non-networked" and thus allow people to charge
>> without
>> the "network costs".
>>
>> I appreciate other viewpoints on this as I would love access to
>> charging
>> stations but don't really want the government, the insurance
>> companies or
>> anybody else keeping track of how many miles I drive.
>>
>> Look forward to the discussion.
>>
>>
>> Sincerely;
>>
>> Douglas A. Stansfield
>> President
>> www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
>> 973-875-6276 (office)
>> 973-670-9208 (cell)
>> 973-440-1619 (fax)
>>
>> WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
>> And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...]
>> On Behalf
>> Of jerryd
>> Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 10:53 AM
>> To: dhymers@...; jerryd@...; Electric Vehicle Discussion
>> List
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost
>>
>>
>>
>>             Hi Dave and All,
>>
>>                  I've been saying for yrs there is no
>> reason EV's need to cost more than ICE's.  They are simple
>> with far less parts as the motor weighs far less and only
>> has 3 moving parts, no transmission needed, the controller,
>> charger are cheap in quantity and batteries are paid for by
>> the tax credit. GM and I expect others are buying Lithium
>> batteries for $.30/wthr or less which is under seal lead
>> battery costs.
>>                  With battery swapping as A Better Place is
>> doing, the battery cost, risk is by them with you just
>> paying a by mile charge for battery and electricity with
>> unlimited range, cost shouldn't be any more than an ICE and
>> less fuel cost including battery than an ICE.
>>                  I think these will be hot sellers  by both
>> the public and gov, utility, other fleets so get your order
>> in early. A Better Place already ordered 100k of them to
>> sell where they will have swapping/charging stations.
>>                  Ford too will have the Focus EV ready for
>> when gas hits $4-5/gal next yr and since it's based on the
>> new lightweight Focus glider, it can be ramped up fast too
>> to meet the demand when gas goes up. In 2 yrs they will have
>> multiple Plug in hybrids, EV's like the Transit Van coming
>> out next yr, all based on production chassis that can easily
>> be switched from ICE to EV drive.
>>                  All the other big car companies can't ramp
>> up  as they are just doing prototype production lines of few
>> EV's because they don't want to produce them that won't be
>> able to meet demand for 3-4 yrs.
>>                   Those that invest in stock I think Nissan
>> and Ford are good bets as they are preparing for the future
>> in a smart way.
>>                   Has anyone else noticed the Jay Leno's
>> racing Focus EV on his show is getting faster as the battery
>> pack gets used?
>>
>>                                      Jerry Dycus
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message Follows -----
>> From: Dave Hymers <dhymers@...>
>> To: jerryd@..., Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> <ev@...>
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost
>> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 20:13:27 -0700
>>
>>> I think we all hope they can really pull it off and the
>>> market responds well.
>>> good luck nissan, I know if I was currently buying this
>>> would be top of my list.
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> http://www.evalbum.com/2149
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 09:00:08 -0800 (PST)
From: fred <fred_dot_u@...>
Subject: [EVDL] Subject: Re:  Tango on Jay Lenos Garage
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <863739.43994.qm@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

What about the one-wheeled EVs?
I've got a ten mile range, but the seat isn't currently comfortable enough for
that distance. A new seat is on order, though and should be here in a week.
11-13 watt-hours per mile too!

------------------------------

Original Message: 27
From: Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...>
Hi, Otmar,    Always enlightening to read your comments on EVDL. Jay puts a
new review on his "Garage" weekly (mol) and a hefty percentage this year
have been about EV s. 2, 3, & 4 wheeled...



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Message: 11
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 08:33:32 -0800
From: "joe" <joe@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <D6D00F77827F4A9D9907EEF36C6C7102@Sales>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8";
	 reply-type=original

Oh, yeah? It's happened before - see the Ford Ranger EV pickups!!! The
original 8V batteries are not available in any format of the correct size.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: joe@...


----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin K" <martin.klingensmith@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 11:09 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost


> On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 9:40 PM, Joseph Ashwood <ashwood@...> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I hope they also make them available for purchase, I'd really hate to see
>> the LEAF2 have a different battery form factor so everyone that bought a
>> LEAF is screwed.
>> Joe
>
> That won't happen, some third party would be happy to pick up a
> smaller market that they are unwilling to support. Getting the cart
> before the horse eh?
>
> --
> Martin K.
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>



------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 11:32:50 -0600
From: Willie McKemie <mckemie@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lithium Batteries...
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <20091117173250.GP24144@c25>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 07:13:25AM -0500, Collin Kidder wrote:
> I bought my BMS from EVComponents but actually went with www.enginer.us
> for the batteries. They've got the 40AH Thundersky cells. I buddy paired
> the cells for 80AH and 100 cells in serial. Their prices can be cheaper
> than EVComponents and they've got stock in the US so you might not even
> have to wait for batteries. I went with money in hand and actually
> picked up all of the batteries myself.

http://www.enginer.us/products/lifep04_battery.php
advertises 4 x TS-LFP40 for $259 delivered.  That's $1.61/ah.
EVComponent's cost runs about $1.30/ah delivered in the USA.
Did you get "a special deal"?  Volume discount?  If so, what?

--
Willie, ONWARD!  Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime  703 days  6 hours 27 minutes



------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 12:29:46 -0500
From: "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
	 Businessmodel discussion...
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <EDF337C685E0404D9751853A630BB8BA@adminwlzisp2uc>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original

   Well, this is all pie-in-the-sky, far as I can see? Better Place, well, I
wish him well.  ANOTHER Bob Aronson? Youse olde timers PROBABLY don't
remember the Silver Volt, the Mars 2 and the Batteries that would run it 100
miles on a charge? Understandable. I'm going BAAAAck 40 years? Bob DID have
the right idea; FAST charging! IF this  Shai guy can raise the bux? He MIGHT
have a few himself? Who knows/ I DIDN'T get to chat him up, in DC a few
years ago. Place was a mob scene,couldn't get NEAR him!  I PROBABLY wouldn't
have gotten an edge in, wordwise? I felt that a few minutes eye to eye I
coulda got a "feel" for him. Oh, he was in a fancy $uit, me; my standard
sweater and jeans., grease under MY fingernails, how many EV's has HE built?

    Soooo, I'm taking a wait-and-see thing. As the MO, guyz say;"Show Me,
State" on their tags.I don't see HOW ANYBODY, at this point get any monolopy
on the charging biz? But it sure would be nice to have a Damn STANDARD,
charge plug, if you have followed my rants in the last several months? Not
rocket science, a RV plug, 240/v.50 amps a NEMA 14-50? Anything I could BUY
at Blowe's or Home Despot, without taking out a second mortgage to BUY a
fancy setup, like fed EV-1 and Rav 4's? However it was nice to see Tesli
feeding at EVents with 14-50's!  I HAVE that in MY charging Sttation, here
24/7 if needed. I say START with a network of EVers with their OWN Stations.
IF the "System" doesn't bother ,we WILL! Damn it! Wal*Mart lets RV's PARK in
their lots, maybe we need to write to their powers that be to see IF they
would go for PLUGS for their EV customers?Or Maul operators. Hell! Charge
us, TWICE! to plug in and to shop!Not looking for a free ride, but I'll take
one, if offered?

    I'll get somebody to take a pix or more of MY setup and put up a link.Not
THAT gooda computer geek. Perhaps places oif Biz MIGHT bre willing to offer
a plug setup if it were cheap to install? Been thinking of offering MY box
setup to anybody interested? I built mine of plywood, with several coats of
"electrical box grey", NO rusting? Looks nice, etc? You guyz that came to
thre EAA neeting met mine. Run a conduit INTO the electrical box INSIDE the
house, rsettable breakers OUTSIDE so you can reset, if need be? A slightly
BIGGER breaker protects all, inside.What ELSE can I do, for charging?

     End of Rant.  but MORE below
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Heuckeroth" <rheuckeroth@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 11:39 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
Businessmodel discussion...


> The problem that I see with Better Place is that they are trying to
> get a monopoly on the EV charging business.  We need healthy
> competition.  The Leaf will probably only take a proprietary battery
> that you have to obtain through Better Place.  If I can't buy the
> battery, I won't buy the car.  Offering a lease option is fine, but
> mandating use of their network is not.
>

      Bingo! OFFERING a lease, is fine. IF the EV thing really flies there
WILL be some compitition? ...."Auto Zone offeres the BEST e-deal on EV
batteries, We'll BEAT Advaned's Prices, Stop in, or E mail.........dot
.com.""We'll take trades, tow or drag them in, we'll fix you up, we'll bring
back YOU EV Grin!" BJ's might dive in, too as they offer institutional size
food stuff, etc. A shitload of batteries, they MIGHT be interested in
dealing, too?

> On Nov 16, 2009, at 1:39 PM, dave cover wrote:
>
>> Doug
>>
>> I agree about Better Place. Seems like they are too interested in
>> keeping their fingers in my charging. The cost of charging should be
>> based on the cost of electricity. We already have a fine charging
>> network. It's our current electric grid. Anyone that wants to make it
>> more complicated or proprietary is just looking for a way to make more
>> money off of the masses. Don't control me or monitor me. Just let me
>> plug in for a fair price.

       You got that right?As ya say, we have a lovely network ALREADY in
place!! Just accessing it is a challenge! Just let us have some PLUGS we can
USE! I mean there is one on my local Drunkin' Donuts , but I'd hafta run my
chord across the walkway, to use it. Maybe bring one of those plastic moldy
things that cover cords on sidewalks, etc? Didn't want to risk a hazard at
DD's! Then they COULD say "America runs on Dunkin'' And MEAN it?

>> Dave Cover


    IF Better Place really gets going, GREAT! IF they have a fair and
equitable system? What's not to love? Were NOW beholden to the OIL monopoly
NOW!?
   With a badd-ery swap place uou could be RID of your beaten to death
badd-eries! Easy, THEY take them and ya have a new set to hammer on!?

       Seeya

       Bob, who RATHER Buy and Hold(Own) anything BEFORE a lease.>>
>> On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 7:50 PM, Douglas A. Stansfield
>> <Doug@...> wrote:
>>> Dear Jerry,
>>>
>>> You bring up Better Place and the business model they have about
>>> pricing on
>>> a per mile basis.  I currently dislike the Better Place business
>>> model as
>>> they will be charging us based on the ICE cost per mile while there
>>> real EV
>>> cost per mile is substantially less.  There business model seems to
>>> work
>>> great in countries that have a high cost of entry for gas power
>>> vehicles
>>> (ie. Israel and Denmark) but with the gas friendly environment in
>>> the US
>>> (inexpensive right now) it makes their positioning (Better Place) a
>>> tougher
>>> sell IMO.
>>>
>>> Also, since there are going to be multiple "EV Charging Networks"
>>> springing
>>> up (Coulomb and Better Place) while I sell www.GreenlighAC.com
>>> charging
>>> stations that are "non-networked" and thus allow people to charge
>>> without
>>> the "network costs".
>>>
>>> I appreciate other viewpoints on this as I would love access to
>>> charging
>>> stations but don't really want the government, the insurance
>>> companies or
>>> anybody else keeping track of how many miles I drive.
>>>
>>> Look forward to the discussion.
>>>
>>>
>>> Sincerely;
>>>
>>> Douglas A. Stansfield
>>> President
>>> www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
>>> 973-875-6276 (office)
>>> 973-670-9208 (cell)
>>> 973-440-1619 (fax)
>>>
>>> WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
>>> And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...]
>>> On Behalf
>>> Of jerryd
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 10:53 AM
>>> To: dhymers@...; jerryd@...; Electric Vehicle Discussion
>>> List
>>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>             Hi Dave and All,
>>>
>>>                  I've been saying for yrs there is no
>>> reason EV's need to cost more than ICE's.  They are simple
>>> with far less parts as the motor weighs far less and only
>>> has 3 moving parts, no transmission needed, the controller,
>>> charger are cheap in quantity and batteries are paid for by
>>> the tax credit. GM and I expect others are buying Lithium
>>> batteries for $.30/wthr or less which is under seal lead
>>> battery costs.
>>>                  With battery swapping as A Better Place is
>>> doing, the battery cost, risk is by them with you just
>>> paying a by mile charge for battery and electricity with
>>> unlimited range, cost shouldn't be any more than an ICE and
>>> less fuel cost including battery than an ICE.
>>>                  I think these will be hot sellers  by both
>>> the public and gov, utility, other fleets so get your order
>>> in early. A Better Place already ordered 100k of them to
>>> sell where they will have swapping/charging stations.
>>>                  Ford too will have the Focus EV ready for
>>> when gas hits $4-5/gal next yr and since it's based on the
>>> new lightweight Focus glider, it can be ramped up fast too
>>> to meet the demand when gas goes up. In 2 yrs they will have
>>> multiple Plug in hybrids, EV's like the Transit Van coming
>>> out next yr, all based on production chassis that can easily
>>> be switched from ICE to EV drive.
>>>                  All the other big car companies can't ramp
>>> up  as they are just doing prototype production lines of few
>>> EV's because they don't want to produce them that won't be
>>> able to meet demand for 3-4 yrs.
>>>                   Those that invest in stock I think Nissan
>>> and Ford are good bets as they are preparing for the future
>>> in a smart way.
>>>                   Has anyone else noticed the Jay Leno's
>>> racing Focus EV on his show is getting faster as the battery
>>> pack gets used?
>>>
>>>                                      Jerry Dycus
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message Follows -----
>>> From: Dave Hymers <dhymers@...>
>>> To: jerryd@..., Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>>> <ev@...>
>>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost
>>> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 20:13:27 -0700
>>>
>>>> I think we all hope they can really pull it off and the
>>>> market responds well.
>>>> good luck nissan, I know if I was currently buying this
>>>> would be top of my list.
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>>> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>>> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>>> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>>> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> http://www.evalbum.com/2149
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 10:37:17 -0700
From: Dave Hymers <dhymers@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Story from "Wayland Invitational Goes
	 INTERNATIONAL
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <ec811c3f0911170937n1a2474f3m5f4d79091b31a40@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

I find it funny how the only commenter on the story feels it's
inconsequential ... bizarre.
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Message: 15
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 09:37:03 -0800
From: Peter Gabrielsson <peter.gabrielsson@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heater relay for 120V
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <12a962740911170937v2c5f9bf8m43d889062dfbd7c3@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

those are rated for 96V with blowouts, you're using it on 120?

On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 6:22 AM, Evan Tuer <evan.tuer@...> wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 2:03 PM, ?<rodhower@...> wrote:
>> Who's the manufacturer and what's the part number?
>
> Albright, SW60.
>
>
>> Rod
>>
>> --- On Tue, 11/17/09, Evan Tuer <evan.tuer@...> wrote:
>>
>>> From: Evan Tuer <evan.tuer@...>
>>> Subject: [EVDL] Heater relay for 120V
>>> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
>>> Date: Tuesday, November 17, 2009, 6:54 AM
>>> On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 6:28 AM,
>>> David Nelson <gizmoev@...>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> >
>>> > My main question is where can I get a relay with a 12V
>>> coil that can
>>> > handle this application? Also, what gauge of wire
>>> should I run for the
>>> > high voltage lines?
>>>
>>> I know you found a relay now, but I recently bought some
>>> relays myself
>>> for the same job (but on a 120V car) and want to mention
>>> them.? These
>>> are a new range, miniature versions of the popular Albright
>>> contactor
>>> which many people use for the main switch on their car.
>>>
>>> It has a 12V continuous coil and can carry 80A.? It
>>> has bolt / stud
>>> terminals for the high voltage side.? It has magnetic
>>> blowouts and is
>>> a proper double-break contactor, but is only about twice
>>> the size of a
>>> normal automotive relay.
>>>
>>> Higher voltages are probably also OK at typical heater
>>> currents, or
>>> with a snubber, but obviously that will need some
>>> experimentation.
>>>
>>> It costs a bit less than a P&B relay.? They are
>>> built to order but I
>>> got some samples and am pretty happy with them.? If
>>> anyone is
>>> interested let me know and I can probably supply one.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>>> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>>> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>



--
www.electric-lemon.com



------------------------------

Message: 16
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 11:45:29 -0600
From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] low profile tires
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B02E139.8000303@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Al wrote:
  >> Why is it that one cannot find "narrow" low profile tires?

Zeke Yewdall wrote:
> Probably because they'd start becoming so low that there wasn't enough
> rubber to protect against pinch flats, or whatever you call them on
> automotive tires.

Automotive tire design is heavily influenced by style. People tend to
buy what "looks cool" and only think about performance later.

Bicycles and motorcycles run skinny low-profile tires. They obviously
work, too. There are no serious traction, life, or ride problems with
this approach. You used to see it on old cars, too; but styling won.

Also, if you run hard skinny small tires, you'll need better suspension
for the same ride quality. For a long time, car designers have depended
on the large low-pressure tires to provide a lot of the soft quiet ride
that people expect.

--
Lee A. Hart  | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N  | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen



------------------------------

Message: 17
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 10:53:07 -0700
From: Jon Glauser <jonglauser@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Start up a RENT YOUR PACK OF BATTERIES store
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <a5f5166f0911170953j11e97384p9d3244c3e1017539@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 7:19 AM, Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...> wrote:
> Of course the MARKETING is the key to SUCCESS. ?A lot of people LIKE
> Leasing... They lease their Furniture, the Microwave, The TV, even their
> CAR. and in doing so pay 150% to 200% of retail price in their lease
> contract payments. (It is the "No Credit Check" for some, and lack of
> investment capital for others.)

I for one would never lease anything. I like to own and control my
things. What happens when I lose my job and can't afford your monthly
driving privilege payment? I can no longer power my vehicle (which I
own)!

I will always buy and own, and almost everyone I know would rather own
than lease/rent. But I live in a different part of the country too.

-Jon Glauser
http://jonglauser.blogspot.com
http://www.evalbum.com/555



------------------------------

Message: 18
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 11:04:42 -0700
From: Zeke Yewdall <zyewdall@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] low profile tires
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <f446b2df0911171004y3d5d58cm366fae3e585526b4@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 10:45 AM, Lee Hart <leeahart@...> wrote:

> Al wrote:
>  >> Why is it that one cannot find "narrow" low profile tires?
>
> Zeke Yewdall wrote:
> > Probably because they'd start becoming so low that there wasn't enough
> > rubber to protect against pinch flats, or whatever you call them on
> > automotive tires.
>
> Automotive tire design is heavily influenced by style. People tend to
> buy what "looks cool" and only think about performance later.
>

Yeah.... I've been accused of the opposite more often, driving 80's subaru
wagons all the time.  Ugly, but very practical and economical :)

>
> Bicycles and motorcycles run skinny low-profile tires. They obviously
> work, too. There are no serious traction, life, or ride problems with
> this approach. You used to see it on old cars, too; but styling won.
>

I don't know about motorcycles, but bicycles and old cars (20's) don't have
low profile tires, at least by my definition -- low profile being the aspect
ratio, rather than the absolute height.

>
> Also, if you run hard skinny small tires, you'll need better suspension
> for the same ride quality. For a long time, car designers have depended
> on the large low-pressure tires to provide a lot of the soft quiet ride
> that people expect.
>

Yup.... I run most of my cars at 44psi instead of the 28 to 32psi
recommended, and they get better mileage, and wear better (otherwise the
corners wear off really fast from driving the canyon all the time), but the
ride is noticeably harsher, true.

>
> --
> Lee A. Hart             | Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave N           | Forget the perfect offering
> Sartell MN 56377        | There is a crack in everything
> leeahart earthlink.net  | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
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Message: 19
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 12:16:58 -0600
From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Business model discussion
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B02E89A.8020304@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Jon Bishop wrote:
> the better place business model isn't about the electricity so much
> as it is about the amount of electricity you run in and out of their
> batteries... they want to track how many cycles you put them through,
> and recoup the cost of the battery that they are providing with a
> lease.

Sure; this makes sense. There are people that cheerfully abuse anything
rented to death if give the chance ("Go ahead and break it; it's a
rental!)" Better Place needs to have a battery management system in
place to protect themselves from such fools.

On charging: I heard something interesting on the BBC last night. I
didn't think to write down the detail, but here's the gist. A company in
England has been selling EV charging stations for about three years now.
Users sign on with a code or credit card, and the electricity they use
*goes on their home electric bill*.

Aha! That's the model to use here!

Laws in the US grant utilities a legal monopoly in selling electricity.
They were pushed through long ago, because the utilities wouldn't build
"the grid" unless they were guaranteed a monopoly against "ruinous
competition". Nowdays, they still use these old laws to prevent
competition. It's illegal for people to make and sell their own electricity.

This has meant that public EV charging power is "free" (the laws can't
stop you from giving away power :-) ). You can't legally have (say), a
parking meter where you put a quarter in the slot to get 15 minutes of
electricity (unless it's run by your local power company). At best, you
can charge for the parking place or charging equipment; but not for the
power used.

But, an infrastructure could be created to allow the electricity to be
metered, and sent back to your power company. Let *them* bill you for
it. It would work like a cell phone, where you call from any location,
and it still gets billed back on your monthly phone bill.

In one respect, "free" electricity is good (for the consumer). But
having a structure to charge for it (at a fair rate) would provide the
much-needed revenue to expand and improve the charging infrastructure.
--
Lee A. Hart  | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N  | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen



------------------------------

Message: 20
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 13:18:42 -0500
From: Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <2b4886ce0911171018l58a5a531xcabc75dd692c837d@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 11:33 AM, joe <joe@...> wrote:

> Oh, yeah? It's happened before - see the Ford Ranger EV pickups!!! The
> original 8V batteries are not available in any format of the correct size.
>
> Joseph H. Strubhar
>
> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>
> E-mail: joe@...
> ==================see the Ford Ranger EV pickups!!!===========
>
Gosh, I'm glad I learned to cut out the old, then fabricate, and install new
battery boxes!

Of course I sometimes use bigger tires and different brand headlamp bulbs,
too.

So I suppose I am considered a SPECIAL ENEMY by auto dealers. But, I just
call that Freedom and Independent Thinking.


> Regards,
>
>
     Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
        Phone (863) 289 - 0690
"Mentoring, Small Group Instruction,
and Hands-On training
for the EV Technicians:
Building, Converting, Repairing,
and Servicing the
Electric Vehicles of Today,
and the Future."
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Message: 21
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 12:27:54 -0600
From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Start up a RENT YOUR PACK OF BATTERIES store
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B02EB2A.9030700@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Dennis Miles wrote:
> Restraint of trade by requiring a particular source is like specifying a
> specific brand of tire and I doubt it would be enforceable, especially
> after warranty expiration.

Ah, but they do this all the time! The method is to design in a special
part, used in that particular make/model/year alone. The carmaker will
buy a million of them, so the special size has a negligible effect on
their price. But when it comes time for replacement, the dealer is the
only source of that part. And they can charge you dearly for the
privilege! Or discontinue it, forcing you to junk an otherwise usable car.

Ideally, they patent some aspect of it, to provide a legal hammer to
stop anyone from copying it. Or, they embed something in it (like a
microcomputer) that has to communicate and be "authorized" to work.

--
Lee A. Hart  | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N  | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen



------------------------------

Message: 22
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 13:29:51 -0500
From: Roger Heuckeroth <rheuckeroth@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] lithium Jet Escort running
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <024C269C-0723-4974-AF06-94EACABCEAE9@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed

How are you figuring that?
On Nov 17, 2009, at 10:44 AM, Willie McKemie wrote:

> http://evalbum.com/1213
>
> New text, no new photos yet.  I seem to be getting 150-200 wh/m; I
> wonder if that is possible?  I rather doubt it.  The Hyundai gets no
> better than 250.



------------------------------

Message: 23
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 13:04:26 -0600
From: Willie McKemie <mckemie@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] lithium Jet Escort running
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <20091117190425.GQ24144@c25>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 01:29:51PM -0500, Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> How are you figuring that?

TBS meter / amp-hour counter.  First trip was about 9 miles and about 9
ah, speed up to 40mph.  Second trip was about 15 miles and about 19 ah,
speed up to 60mph.  The meter indicates charging at the expected 15
amps.

Hyundai has almost identical setup except for 9" motor; it gets around
2 ah/m.

> On Nov 17, 2009, at 10:44 AM, Willie McKemie wrote:
>
> > http://evalbum.com/1213
> >
> > New text, no new photos yet.  I seem to be getting 150-200 wh/m; I
> > wonder if that is possible?  I rather doubt it.  The Hyundai gets no
> > better than 250.

--
Willie, ONWARD!  Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime  703 days  7 hours 55 minutes



------------------------------

Message: 24
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 14:01:20 -0500
From: Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Start up a RENT YOUR PACK OF BATTERIES store
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <2b4886ce0911171101n56c415bbtf887711d956d0b8e@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 1:27 PM, Lee Hart <leeahart@...> wrote:

> Dennis Miles wrote:
> > Restraint of trade by requiring a particular source is like specifying a
> > specific brand of tire and I doubt it would be enforceable, especially
> > after warranty expiration.
>
> Ah, but they do this all the time! The method is to design in a special
> part, used in that particular make/model/year alone. The carmaker will
> buy a million of them, so the special size has a negligible effect on
> their price. But when it comes time for replacement, the dealer is the
> only source of that part. And they can charge you dearly for the
> privilege! Or discontinue it, forcing you to junk an otherwise usable car.
>
> Ideally, they patent some aspect of it, to provide a legal hammer to
> stop anyone from copying it. Or, they embed something in it (like a
> microcomputer) that has to communicate and be "authorized" to work.
>
> --
> Lee A. Hart             | Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave N           | Forget the perfect offering
> Sartell MN 56377        | There is a crack in everything
> leeahart earthlink.net  | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>
> ====================Time to practice "Hacking?"========================
Lee,

I agree with you, and I HATE the automaker's practices too.  Fortunately I
have only found this in the "Car Computer" so far, and replacements are
available on the "Recycled Market."

But I own and drive older vehicles (Preferring 1980's and older because they
are fixable by an old "Shade Tree Mechanic" like me.)

Seems like all my favorite "Rides" are more than 25 years old, although I
had an '87 I liked.

  Regards,

     Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
        Phone (863) 289 - 0690
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Message: 25
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 14:12:09 -0500
From: Roger Heuckeroth <rheuckeroth@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] lithium Jet Escort running
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <B8ACC023-EAB7-4F78-9092-F8190EA201AB@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes

Do you suspect your TBS meter is off?

On Nov 17, 2009, at 2:04 PM, Willie McKemie wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 01:29:51PM -0500, Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
>> How are you figuring that?
>
> TBS meter / amp-hour counter.  First trip was about 9 miles and
> about 9
> ah, speed up to 40mph.  Second trip was about 15 miles and about 19
> ah,
> speed up to 60mph.  The meter indicates charging at the expected 15
> amps.
>
> Hyundai has almost identical setup except for 9" motor; it gets around
> 2 ah/m.
>
>> On Nov 17, 2009, at 10:44 AM, Willie McKemie wrote:
>>
>>> http://evalbum.com/1213
>>>
>>> New text, no new photos yet.  I seem to be getting 150-200 wh/m; I
>>> wonder if that is possible?  I rather doubt it.  The Hyundai gets no
>>> better than 250.
>
> --
> Willie, ONWARD!  Through the fog!
> http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
> Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime  703 days  7 hours 55 minutes
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



------------------------------

Message: 26
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 14:17:32 -0500
From: Mark Hanson <marke.hanson@...>
Subject: [EVDL] Thanks for Eboat help
To: <ev@...>
Message-ID: <SNT114-W369342CD134236B3183F6784A40@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"


Thanks Jerry, Lawson etc for the Eboat help.



I've got the foam removed which allows more room for neater wiring too and will
epoxy-fiberglas the holes-rot caused by the water trapped foam.  I guess that's
one of the dumber things I've done like when I had my Sebring-Vanguard City-Car
and was underneath it and mounting a new controller on the floor and
accidentally drilled my balls (fortunately the doc said I didn't hit anything
important and my son turned out as normal as me :-)  But last month I ran into
my solar panels hooking them up to charge my boat & EV resulting in two black
eyes.  Like Kermit says, "it's not easy being green".



EV circuits & Li-Ion balancer on www.evdl.org/lib/mh/



Mark in Roanoke, VA

_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection.
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Message: 27
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 13:42:08 -0600
From: Willie McKemie <mckemie@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] lithium Jet Escort running
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <20091117194208.GR24144@c25>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 02:12:09PM -0500, Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> Do you suspect your TBS meter is off?

Since it registers charge at the expected rate, no.  The TBS shunt
registers all current, both into and out of the battery.  It appears to
be wired correctly and working correctly.  Except it shows almost
un-believable low energy use.  I can't think of another possible
problem/error.  I guess it'll become obvious when I start using
significant portions of the battery energy.  That is, longer trips.

--
Willie, ONWARD!  Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime  703 days  8 hours 33 minutes



------------------------------

_______________________________________________
EV@...
For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



End of EV Digest, Vol 28, Issue 24
**********************************

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (1)
#37640 From: ev-request@...
Date: Wed Nov 18, 2009 5:54 pm
Subject: EV Digest, Vol 28, Issue 25 		ev-request@...
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Today's Topics:

    1. Re: Lithium Batteries... (Collin Kidder)
    2. Reversing Contactors?  BEST PRICE? (ratliffgrp@...)
    3. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost (Lee Hart)
    4. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost (Martin K)
    5. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost (Martin K)
    6. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost (Lee Hart)
    7. Re: ESD plastic? (Thor Johnson)
    8. Re: Lithium Batteries... (Thor Johnson)
    9. Re: Start up a RENT YOUR PACK OF BATTERIES store (Dave Davidson)
   10. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost (David Dymaxion)
   11. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost (Richard Furniss)
   12. Re: Start up a RENT YOUR PACK OF BATTERIES store (Dennis Miles)
   13. Re: ESD plastic? (Al)
   14. DOE approval of Florida's proposed $5k PHEV conversion rebate
       program (Charles Whalen)
   15. Re: Reversing Contactors? BEST PRICE? (Ryan Bohm)
   16. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place - Businessmodel
       discussion... (Richard Furniss)
   17. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost (Rush)
   18. Hybrid kit. (Lawrence Rhodes)
   19. Hybrid kit. (cowtown@...)
   20. Re: Heater relay for 120V (Evan Tuer)
   21. Re: DOE approval of Florida's proposed $5k PHEV conversion
       rebate program (dave cover)
   22.  GE getting into sodium batteries? (rodhower@...)
   23. Re: low profile tires (Jeff Shanab)
   24. Re: low profile tires (dave cover)
   25. Re: ESD plastic? (Lee Hart)
   26. Re: ESD plastic? (Dennis Miles)
   27. Re: DOE approval of Florida's proposed $5k PHEV conversion
       rebate program (Dennis Miles)
   28. Re: GE getting into sodium batteries? (Dennis Miles)
   29. Re: DOE approval of Florida's proposed $5k PHEV conversion
       rebate program (Charles Whalen)
   30. Re: GE getting into sodium batteries? (EVDL Administrator)
   31. Re: GE getting into sodium batteries? (Martin K)
   32. Re: GE getting into sodium batteries? (Martin K)
   33. Re: GE getting into sodium batteries? (Evan Tuer)
   34. Re: ESD plastic? (Eric Poulsen)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 15:22:52 -0500
From: Collin Kidder <collink@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lithium Batteries...
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <4B03061C.6040309@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

On 11/17/2009 12:32 PM, Willie McKemie wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 07:13:25AM -0500, Collin Kidder wrote:
>
>> I bought my BMS from EVComponents but actually went with www.enginer.us
>> for the batteries. They've got the 40AH Thundersky cells. I buddy paired
>> the cells for 80AH and 100 cells in serial. Their prices can be cheaper
>> than EVComponents and they've got stock in the US so you might not even
>> have to wait for batteries. I went with money in hand and actually
>> picked up all of the batteries myself.
>>
> http://www.enginer.us/products/lifep04_battery.php
> advertises 4 x TS-LFP40 for $259 delivered.  That's $1.61/ah.
> EVComponent's cost runs about $1.30/ah delivered in the USA.
> Did you get "a special deal"?  Volume discount?  If so, what?
>
>
Yes, I did not pay $259 a piece. The price I did pay was much more in
line with EVComponents. And, it was in my home state so the money stayed
local (so to speak... it's about 120 miles away). And, Enginer had the
batteries in stock so there was no waiting.

They might not be the best option for everyone but it worked out for me.
One nice thing is that the packs of four are pre-bound so you don't need
to worry about figuring out how to bind the batteries around their
perimeter. This is important for lithium cells and is not included with
EVComponents AFAIK. The binding seems to have been done by chinese kids
in a sweatshop but I suppose it's decent enough. Also, the batteries
come with cables preinstalled for a BMS which Enginer sells. I didn't
use their BMS; it's not very advanced. So I had to take off the wires.
The batteries also come with rubber caps over all of the terminals.

I guess the bottom line is that in bulk they are no more expensive than
EVComponents and the batteries come with a couple of cheap but nice to
have extras.



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 15:25:09 -0500
From: ratliffgrp@...
Subject: [EVDL] Reversing Contactors?  BEST PRICE?
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <8CC35DB3108C561-E30-8817@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"


Gang,

Does anyone have a secret source for good pricing on Curtis Albright SW202
Reversing Contactors with a 12 Volt Coil?  Would like to purchase new.  Also,
what's the real difference between a SW202A or SW202B Contactor?

THANKS!


=
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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 14:30:07 -0600
From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B0307CF.3030107@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

Martin K wrote:
>> I hope they also make them available for purchase, I'd really hate to see
>> the LEAF2 have a different battery form factor so everyone that bought a
>> LEAF is screwed.

Martin K wrote:
> That won't happen, some third party would be happy to pick up a
> smaller market that they are unwilling to support. Getting the cart
> before the horse eh?

Let's hope so. However...

Notice that *none* of the batteries used in *any* of the recent auto
company produced EVs or hybrids are available from anyone except the
original carmaker. Even though in most cases, these batteries were
actually made by someone *other* than GM, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, Honda,
Nissan etc.

--
Lee A. Hart  | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N  | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 16:18:48 -0500
From: Martin K <martin.klingensmith@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <d8f29a7d0911171318g31a1536byd48ef84da396990c@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 3:30 PM, Lee Hart <leeahart@...> wrote:

> Martin K wrote:
>> That won't happen, some third party would be happy to pick up a
>> smaller market that they are unwilling to support. Getting the cart
>> before the horse eh?
>
> Let's hope so. However...
>
> Notice that *none* of the batteries used in *any* of the recent auto
> company produced EVs or hybrids are available from anyone except the
> original carmaker. Even though in most cases, these batteries were
> actually made by someone *other* than GM, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, Honda,
> Nissan etc.
>

But it's not apparent that a third party could be legally prevented
from making batteries that work with these cars (physical restrictions
are fixed with a hack saw, basically.) As an example, Lexmark sued a
company that "circumvented" their lock-out for toner cartridges. They
lost the case.

--
Martin K.



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 16:20:17 -0500
From: Martin K <martin.klingensmith@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <d8f29a7d0911171320v4bd3768ege55e958415b6aac4@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 4:18 PM, Martin K <martin.klingensmith@...> wrote:

>> Notice that *none* of the batteries used in *any* of the recent auto
>> company produced EVs or hybrids are available from anyone except the
>> original carmaker. Even though in most cases, these batteries were
>> actually made by someone *other* than GM, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, Honda,
>> Nissan etc.
>>
>
> But it's not apparent that a third party could be legally prevented
> from making batteries that work with these cars (physical restrictions
> are fixed with a hack saw, basically.) As an example, Lexmark sued a
> company that "circumvented" their lock-out for toner cartridges. They
> lost the case.
>
> --
> Martin K.
>


Getting back to the original point: if 20,000 people who owned used
electric vehicles who couldn't buy new batteries said "please, someone
sell us a battery pack" - you can bet someone's going to figure out
how to take their money and sell them a battery.

--
Martin K.



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 17:05:51 -0500 (EST)
From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <11305285.1258495551992.JavaMail.root@...>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

From: Martin K
> it's not apparent that a third party could be legally prevented
> from making batteries that work with these cars (physical restrictions
> are fixed with a hack saw, basically.) As an example, Lexmark sued a
> company that "circumvented" their lock-out for toner cartridges. They
> lost the case.

It will depend on what method the manufacturer uses. If they depend on secrecy,
some enterprising "hacker" can figure it out, and sell a clone without fear of
prosecution. But if the manufacturer patented some aspect, they *can* prosecute
to stop it from bein used by others.

Notice that the Toyota Prius has been on the market for over 10 years now. Over
a million cars have been produced, Yet, there still are no alternate sources of
Prius batteries.

In contrast, when a carmaker introduces a new 12v car battery size, the
aftermarket is selling them within a few months.

--
Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the one who is
doing it.    --    Chinese proverb
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net



------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 18:23:05 -0500
From: "Thor Johnson" <tjohnson@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ESD plastic?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <12E11415AF215A43A94A68630C6C4AFB24B7@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

That would work even better as I could coat the bottom side to prevent
ESD buildup, while leaving the topside pure and not having to worry
about shocking people.  Anyone have suggestions?

Thanks,
Thor Johnson


-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On
Behalf Of Roger Heuckeroth
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 11:26 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ESD plastic?

How about an anti static coating?

On Nov 16, 2009, at 9:38 PM, Thor Johnson wrote:

> I have access to a CO2 laser cutter; I was thinking about cutting out
> nice covers for my battery pack (400V divided into 22 packs), but I'm
> using the eLithion BMS with its bare boards mounted topside, and I
> remembered that lexan & plexi have an inordinate static buildup
> issue....
>
>
>
> Is there a good, inexpensive ESD plastic I can use for the covers
> (ideally, it would be transparent/translucent, but I can drill holes)?
> Would the "ESD" material's resistance be enough for safety?




------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 18:23:05 -0500
From: "Thor Johnson" <tjohnson@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lithium Batteries...
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <12E11415AF215A43A94A68630C6C4AFB24B8@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

> On 11/17/2009 12:32 PM, Willie McKemie wrote:
>> On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 07:13:25AM -0500, Collin Kidder wrote:
>>
>>> I bought my BMS from EVComponents but actually went with
www.enginer.us
>>> for the batteries. They've got the 40AH Thundersky cells. I buddy
paired
>>> the cells for 80AH and 100 cells in serial. Their prices can be
cheaper
>>> than EVComponents and they've got stock in the US so you might not
even
>>> have to wait for batteries. I went with money in hand and actually
>>> picked up all of the batteries myself.
>>
>> http://www.enginer.us/products/lifep04_battery.php
>> advertises 4 x TS-LFP40 for $259 delivered.  That's $1.61/ah.
>> EVComponent's cost runs about $1.30/ah delivered in the USA.
>> Did you get "a special deal"?  Volume discount?  If so, what?
>>
>>
>Yes, I did not pay $259 a piece. The price I did pay was much more in
>line with EVComponents. And, it was in my home state so the money
stayed
>local (so to speak... it's about 120 miles away). And, Enginer had the
>batteries in stock so there was no waiting.
>
>They might not be the best option for everyone but it worked out for
me.
>One nice thing is that the packs of four are pre-bound so you don't
need
>to worry about figuring out how to bind the batteries around their
>perimeter. This is important for lithium cells and is not included with

>EVComponents AFAIK. The binding seems to have been done by chinese kids

>in a sweatshop but I suppose it's decent enough. Also, the batteries
>come with cables preinstalled for a BMS which Enginer sells. I didn't
>use their BMS; it's not very advanced. So I had to take off the wires.
>The batteries also come with rubber caps over all of the terminals.

My EVComponents ThunderSky cells came bound (aluminum end plates and
metal straps).  The rubber caps are a nice touch (and I didn't get
those),
but since I'm using the eLithion BMS, I have HV on top anyway.

Since I bought the eLithion BMS at the same time as the cells, they gave
me a 2 yr warranty.

-Thor Johnson




------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 18:58:27 -0500
From: Dave Davidson <davetex99@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Start up a RENT YOUR PACK OF BATTERIES store
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <36b5c54c0911171558q3afc0558rff0dc7c3a99dd75e@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 2:01 PM, Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...> wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 1:27 PM, Lee Hart <leeahart@...> wrote:
>
>> Dennis Miles wrote:
>> > Restraint of trade by requiring a particular source is like specifying a
>> > specific brand of tire and I doubt it would be enforceable, especially
>> > after warranty expiration.
>>
>> Ah, but they do this all the time! The method is to design in a special
>> part, used in that particular make/model/year alone. The carmaker will
>> buy a million of them, so the special size has a negligible effect on
>> their price. But when it comes time for replacement, the dealer is the
>> only source of that part. And they can charge you dearly for the
>> privilege! Or discontinue it, forcing you to junk an otherwise usable car.
>>
>> Ideally, they patent some aspect of it, to provide a legal hammer to
>> stop anyone from copying it. Or, they embed something in it (like a
>> microcomputer) that has to communicate and be "authorized" to work.
>>
>> --
>> Lee A. Hart ? ? ? ? ? ? | Ring the bells that still can ring
>> 814 8th Ave N ? ? ? ? ? | Forget the perfect offering
>> Sartell MN 56377 ? ? ? ?| There is a crack in everything
>> leeahart earthlink.net ?| That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>>
>> ====================Time to practice "Hacking?"========================
> Lee,
>
> I agree with you, and I HATE the automaker's practices too. ?Fortunately I
> have only found this in the "Car Computer" so far, and replacements are
> available on the "Recycled Market."
>
> But I own and drive older vehicles (Preferring 1980's and older because they
> are fixable by an old "Shade Tree Mechanic" like me.)
>
> Seems like all my favorite "Rides" are more than 25 years old, although I
> had an '87 I liked.
>
> ?Regards,
>
> ? ?Dennis Miles, ? ?(Director / CEO)
> Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
> Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
> ? ? ? Phone (863) 289 - 0690
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> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>

Must be nice.  Anything up here much over 10 or 15 years old has long
since rusted out.

Dave Davidson
Glen Burnie, Maryland



------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 16:03:54 -0800 (PST)
From: David Dymaxion <david_dymaxion@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost
To: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>, Electric Vehicle Discussion
	 List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <781331.99484.qm@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Are you aware of any lawsuits or other strong arm tactics Toyota has used? It
could just be that most cars will need several starter batteries, but Prius
packs last a long time and the rarely needed replacements are being done with
packs from wrecked cars.



________________________________
From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Sent: Tue, November 17, 2009 3:05:51 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost

It will depend on what method the manufacturer uses. If they depend on secrecy,
some enterprising "hacker" can figure it out, and sell a clone without fear of
prosecution. But if the manufacturer patented some aspect, they *can* prosecute
to stop it from bein used by others.

Notice that the Toyota Prius has been on the market for over 10 years now. Over
a million cars have been produced, Yet, there still are no alternate sources of
Prius batteries.

In contrast, when a carmaker introduces a new 12v car battery size, the
aftermarket is selling them within a few months.



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Message: 11
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 18:26:26 -0800
From: "Richard Furniss" <rfurniss1@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost
To: "Gail Lucas" <gaildlucas@...>, "Electric Vehicle
	 Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <B85DCD2CB02B467E87884074E6715F7F@richard01>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Gail you got me wrong, I have driven the Nissan in electric mode when the
hydrogen tour came through Las Vegas. In less than two years will be driving OEM
electric vehicles, you can have EV #2 I want to be EV #1.

Gail Lucas wrote:

   I thought that was the goal, to have everyone driving EVs.  Richard, are you
   suggesting that EVs should remain the property of only those who want a
   hobby?  I want them to become commonplace as soon as possible so we can pull
   into any shop to have one repaired, the same as if it were an ICE, to stop
   at any gas station to charge at one of their outlets and go to any auto
   dealer to buy a new one, which will have a warranty.  If I tell someone I
   drive an EV I want them to respond, "Doesn't everyone?"

   Gail

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Message: 12
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 21:55:02 -0500
From: Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Start up a RENT YOUR PACK OF BATTERIES store
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <2b4886ce0911171855p72dd3e5l44516708a3885aeb@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

>
>
> Must be nice.  Anything up here much over 10 or 15 years old has long
> since rusted out.
>
> Dave Davidson
> Glen Burnie, Maryland
> =======================yes, I choose where I live. ===================
>
> Dave, move to somewhere it doesn't snow and the roads are NOT sprinkled
> with salt and your cars don't rust nearly as much.
>


>  Here is a tip to make the EV body rustproof. It was my brother's technique
> and it worked in Western Pennsylvania.
>


> He used "Plastic roofing cement" (TAR) and thinned it with mineral spirits
> (He used "Charcoal lighter" as it was cheaper.) thinned it to a consistency
> his paint sprayer could handle. then painted the bottom, fender
> wells,  inside of bumpers, inside of doors and door jambs, inside the trunk
> lid and inside of car fenders visible from trunk, inside the rocker panels
> from underneath and from under the door sill trim panels.
>


> The idea was to coat the backside of all exterior sheet metal and both
> sides if not visible so rust had no where to start. and he sanded the
> exterior and applied a fresh coat of clear top coat every two years He
> coated everything but the drive train and exhaust system.
>


> Then he let it dry for 3 or 4 days and didn't come near it with a cigarette
> for at least a week. (Mineral spirits BURNS!) But his vehicles would last
> rust free for over 20 years!
>


>  He also drilled six holes in his driveway and pushed a pvc pipe thru
> underneath connecting the holes then attached sprinkler heads to spray up
> and washed the bottom of his car free of ice and salt every week with his
> warm well water. He said it made his car lighter...So my friends there is
> SOMETHING you can do!
>

Regards,

     Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
        Phone (863) 289 - 0690
"We provide Mentoring, Small Group Instruction, and Hands-On training for
the EV Technicians: Building, Converting, Repairing, and Servicing the
Electric Vehicles of Today, and the Future."
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Message: 13
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 20:55:34 -0500
From: "Al" <bigg_al@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ESD plastic?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <00c001ca67f2$380d1b10$4001a8c0@ALANAMD64>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
	 reply-type=original

Remember, anything that is anti-static is conductive!

----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Heuckeroth" <rheuckeroth@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 11:25 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ESD plastic?


> How about an anti static coating?
>
> On Nov 16, 2009, at 9:38 PM, Thor Johnson wrote:
>
>> I have access to a CO2 laser cutter; I was thinking about cutting out
>> nice covers for my battery pack (400V divided into 22 packs), but I'm
>> using the eLithion BMS with its bare boards mounted topside, and I
>> remembered that lexan & plexi have an inordinate static buildup
>> issue....
>>
>>
>>
>> Is there a good, inexpensive ESD plastic I can use for the covers
>> (ideally, it would be transparent/translucent, but I can drill holes)?
>> Would the "ESD" material's resistance be enough for safety?
>>
>>
>>
>> -Thor Johnson
>>
>> (Getting Closer)
>>
>>
>>
>> -------------- next part --------------
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>>
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>> _______________________________________________
>> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 00:08:40 -0500
From: "Charles Whalen" <whalenc@...>
Subject: [EVDL] DOE approval of Florida's proposed $5k PHEV conversion
	 rebate program
To: "EV Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <6BCAA3B57A7F43A8BB18C3E478AFAE6F@whalenvoco1a7x>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Final DOE approval and funding for our proposed PHEV conversion rebate
program came through today:

http://www.energy.gov/news2009/8294.htm

We'll be working with the Governor's office over the next few weeks to try
to get this $5k rebate program implemented and up and running by January.

Rebate applications and disbursements will be coordinated by and through
Jonathan Ortiz of Foreign Affairs Auto in West Palm Beach, A123/Hymotion's
exclusive Florida installing dealer
(www.foreignaffairsauto.com/pages/hymotion).

(The A123/Hymotion PHEV conversion kit for 2004 through 2009 model year
Toyota Priuses is the only PHEV conversion kit on the market that presently
qualifies for the $5k rebate by meeting federal goverment crash-test safety
standards and California emissions standards.)

Charles Whalen
Florida EAA



------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 22:20:46 -0700
From: Ryan Bohm <evdl@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Reversing Contactors? BEST PRICE?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <abf830ab0911172120i19cbc4ak4bc4a6a32d5f2072@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

> Does anyone have a secret source for good pricing on Curtis Albright SW202
> Reversing Contactors with a 12 Volt Coil?  Would like to purchase new.
>  Also, what's the real difference between a SW202A or SW202B Contactor?
>

Not Albright, but very comparable:

http://www.evsource.com/tls_relays.php (part number 101-ZJWH400A-2T, down a
little ways).

The "A" is for aux contacts (microswitch to detect if the contacts are
open/closed).  I'm not sure what the "B" designation means.

-Ryan
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Professional grade electric vehicle parts and resources
E-mail: mailto:ryan@...
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
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Message: 16
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 18:53:37 -0800
From: "Richard Furniss" <rfurniss1@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
	 Businessmodel discussion...
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <6843E22D554647068C137DCF0982326B@richard01>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Roger wrote:
  If I can't buy the
battery, I won't buy the car.  Offering a lease option is fine, but
mandating use of their network is not.

The Leaf comes with a built in charger, you give it 110v or 220v at home. You
don't have to change out your battery pack unless you want to refuel like a ICE,
in minutes.
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Message: 17
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 22:00:10 -0700
From: "Rush" <Rush@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <83045D8953764EEBBF5E96AAC5BAA8CD@meadow>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original

> Notice that the Toyota Prius has been on the market for over 10 years now.
> Over a million cars have been produced, Yet, there still are no alternate
> sources of Prius batteries.

My 2000 Insight recently had a battery pack failure. Since it was out of
warentty (it had 160k miles and warrenty is to 150k on my model) and Honda
asked $2000 + $600 shipping and labor, I found www.hybrid-battery-repair.com
in Staten Island NY. It cost me $1000 for a 'refurbished' pack. Only 2 of
the D sized HIMH cells were replaced, but all the 'sticks' were
reconditioned so that they are all performing at the same level.

The problem is that each stick has 5 D cells in it and there are 20 sticks
to pack. So each charge/discharge cycle puts the cells/sticks slightly out
of balance and when the balance is too far the pack gives a 'bad pack' error
messsage when in fact they are mostly just out of balance. Here is a link to
how Ron of Hybrid battery repair does it.
http://www.hybrid-battery-repair.com/insight/diy.html

Rush
Tucson AZ
www.TEVA2.com



------------------------------

Message: 18
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 22:53:30 -0800 (PST)
From: Lawrence Rhodes <primobassoon@...>
Subject: [EVDL] Hybrid kit.
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <531374.14162.qm@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

http://www.enginer.us/ 48vdc????? 40ah.  They say it works.  Lawrence Rhodes.



------------------------------

Message: 19
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 00:41:05 -0800
From: cowtown@...
Subject: [EVDL] Hybrid kit.
To: ev@...
Message-ID:
	 <20091118004105.f6d0n58dcgcsc88w-pbjgbja@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes";
	 format="flowed"

<<< http://www.enginer.us/ 48vdc????? 40ah.  They say it works.
Lawrence Rhodes. >>>

48V is a common telecom voltage, so there may be a DC-DC converter of
the right amperage and step-up voltage already available.



------------------------------

Message: 20
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:25:44 +0000
From: Evan Tuer <evan.tuer@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heater relay for 120V
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <cc7432af0911180325y7c49122eie500f2d1cc62b82d@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 5:37 PM, Peter Gabrielsson
<peter.gabrielsson@...> wrote:
> those are rated for 96V with blowouts, you're using it on 120?

For a resistive load it's rated at 120V with blowouts.  I've watched
the contacts while switching a 10A mostly resistive load (ceramic
heater), and there's very little arcing to speak of.  I cycled it
quickly about 100 times to make sure it wasn't going to stick, and the
contacts still look like new, so that's why I say I'm happy with it.

I'm going to try it on a 162V car, perhaps adding a snubber, at some point.



------------------------------

Message: 21
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 07:40:36 -0500
From: dave cover <davecover@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DOE approval of Florida's proposed $5k PHEV
	 conversion rebate program
To: Charles Whalen <whalenc@...>, Electric Vehicle
	 Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <ae3bc37c0911180440q474ce4cma7ac3abc1f25ae58@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Congratulations! I wonder if other states will adopt this.

Dave Cover

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 12:08 AM, Charles Whalen <whalenc@...> wrote:
> Final DOE approval and funding for our proposed PHEV conversion rebate
> program came through today:
>
> http://www.energy.gov/news2009/8294.htm
>
> We'll be working with the Governor's office over the next few weeks to try
> to get this $5k rebate program implemented and up and running by January.
>
> Rebate applications and disbursements will be coordinated by and through
> Jonathan Ortiz of Foreign Affairs Auto in West Palm Beach, A123/Hymotion's
> exclusive Florida installing dealer
> (www.foreignaffairsauto.com/pages/hymotion).
>
> (The A123/Hymotion PHEV conversion kit for 2004 through 2009 model year
> Toyota Priuses is the only PHEV conversion kit on the market that presently
> qualifies for the $5k rebate by meeting federal goverment crash-test safety
> standards and California emissions standards.)
>
> Charles Whalen
> Florida EAA
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>



--
http://www.evalbum.com/2149



------------------------------

Message: 22
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 05:58:14 -0800 (PST)
From: rodhower@...
Subject: [EVDL]  GE getting into sodium batteries?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <620353.14126.qm@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

I just got this email from a recruiter,
"I am responsible for recruiting key positions for General Electric. As you may
know we are currently setting up a new business in New York State to develop &
manufacture sodium battery technology for a number of sectors, including
transportation, power, UPS & telecommunications."
I know GE invested money in A123, but didn't realize they where playing with
sodium batteries again.  I googled and found this,
http://inspiredeconomist.com/2009/05/12/ge-to-open-100-million-sodium-battery-pl\
ant-in-ny/
and this,
http://blog.timesunion.com/capitol/archives/14402/gov-announces-sodium-battery-f\
acility-in-nisky/
Looks like they'll be using it in a hybrid locomotive, right up Bob Rice's alley
:-)
Rod



------------------------------

Message: 23
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 06:11:17 -0800
From: Jeff Shanab <jshanab@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] low profile tires
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <4B040085.5040506@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I think tire design has also been greatly effected by material and
manufacturing capabilities  and  improvements in suspension.
The lower profile tires use to be limited by the heat dissipation and to
some effect still is.

When I was into racing and did some autocrossing, I was fortunate enough
to work with a retired driver and his brother mechanic from the Nissan
Race team.
His car is even in that Fred Phun book.

Anyway. When we tuned my car we took temperature readings immediately
after a run and adjusted tire pressure and alignment until the inner
edge middle and outer edge are all the same. The goal here is to get all
the rubber working equally. But the overall temperature was also
important and in one case they reduced tired width to get the tire
temperature up into the optimum range.  ***

So low profile for better transition and control into and out of the
corners . With symmetrical stiffness sidewalls, outer stiff and inner
stiff as options for different driving styles and suspensions.

Adjust tire width for the temperature range of the compound

And also the optimum contact patch. The amount of traction is the same
on a skinny tire and a wide tire, within the limits of the compound.
Simple Physics really. THe force due to friction is mue * normal. mue is
the friction coefficient of the rubber and varies with compound and temp
and stress. Normal is the normal force. As a tire gets narrow the weight
per unit area goes up so the force it can exert goes up. As it gets
wider, the opposite happens. The contact patch gets long and skinny if a
tire is too wide and maintaining lateral traction actually can decrease
on lighter vehicles.

Wider tires can have higher,lower, or same rolling resistance
     less because the weight is spread out more and the side wall flexes less
     more because it has more width in contact, Any missalignment is
amplified more on wider tires.
     same becuase any combination of the above along with compound,temp
and load can add up to or cancel each other.

Newer suspensions and lighter structures allowed for there to be less
suspension in the tire itself. The coolness buyers have taken this to
such an extreme as to create a new market of rims that are so heavy they
are dis functional. THey are putting 50lb 22" rims on honda accords in
this town and I give them a wide berth because they loose control on the
dips of intersections.

I ask how much a rim weights when I am in the store, If they can't
answer or say that doesn't matter, I walk(run) out.

*** some may ask why not change tire diameter? two reasons one is the
golden rule of testing, change only one thing at a time, but it also
that changes effective gear ratios.  Change diameter and you must start
over on all the test.

> Al wrote:
> >> Why is it that one cannot find "narrow" low profile tires?
>
> Zeke Yewdall wrote:
>> Probably because they'd start becoming so low that there wasn't enough
>> rubber to protect against pinch flats, or whatever you call them on
>> automotive tires.
>
> Automotive tire design is heavily influenced by style. People tend to
> buy what "looks cool" and only think about performance later.
>
> Bicycles and motorcycles run skinny low-profile tires. They obviously
> work, too. There are no serious traction, life, or ride problems with
> this approach. You used to see it on old cars, too; but styling won.
>
> Also, if you run hard skinny small tires, you'll need better
> suspension for the same ride quality. For a long time, car designers
> have depended on the large low-pressure tires to provide a lot of the
> soft quiet ride that people expect.
>
> --
> Lee A. Hart        | Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave N        | Forget the perfect offering
> Sartell MN 56377    | There is a crack in everything
> leeahart earthlink.net    | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>
>



------------------------------

Message: 24
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 09:20:00 -0500
From: dave cover <davecover@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] low profile tires
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <ae3bc37c0911180620g6a9d96eax40ca4c0b02463405@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Very interesting summary, thanks for the info Jeff!

Dave Cover

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 9:11 AM, Jeff Shanab <jshanab@...> wrote:
> I think tire design has also been greatly effected by material and
> manufacturing capabilities ?and ?improvements in suspension.
> The lower profile tires use to be limited by the heat dissipation and to
> some effect still is.
>
> When I was into racing and did some autocrossing, I was fortunate enough
> to work with a retired driver and his brother mechanic from the Nissan
> Race team.
> His car is even in that Fred Phun book.
>
> Anyway. When we tuned my car we took temperature readings immediately
> after a run and adjusted tire pressure and alignment until the inner
> edge middle and outer edge are all the same. The goal here is to get all
> the rubber working equally. But the overall temperature was also
> important and in one case they reduced tired width to get the tire
> temperature up into the optimum range. ?***
>
> So low profile for better transition and control into and out of the
> corners . With symmetrical stiffness sidewalls, outer stiff and inner
> stiff as options for different driving styles and suspensions.
>
> Adjust tire width for the temperature range of the compound
>
> And also the optimum contact patch. The amount of traction is the same
> on a skinny tire and a wide tire, within the limits of the compound.
> Simple Physics really. THe force due to friction is mue * normal. mue is
> the friction coefficient of the rubber and varies with compound and temp
> and stress. Normal is the normal force. As a tire gets narrow the weight
> per unit area goes up so the force it can exert goes up. As it gets
> wider, the opposite happens. The contact patch gets long and skinny if a
> tire is too wide and maintaining lateral traction actually can decrease
> on lighter vehicles.
>
> Wider tires can have higher,lower, or same rolling resistance
> ? ?less because the weight is spread out more and the side wall flexes less
> ? ?more because it has more width in contact, Any missalignment is
> amplified more on wider tires.
> ? ?same becuase any combination of the above along with compound,temp
> and load can add up to or cancel each other.
>
> Newer suspensions and lighter structures allowed for there to be less
> suspension in the tire itself. The coolness buyers have taken this to
> such an extreme as to create a new market of rims that are so heavy they
> are dis functional. THey are putting 50lb 22" rims on honda accords in
> this town and I give them a wide berth because they loose control on the
> dips of intersections.
>
> I ask how much a rim weights when I am in the store, If they can't
> answer or say that doesn't matter, I walk(run) out.
>
> *** some may ask why not change tire diameter? two reasons one is the
> golden rule of testing, change only one thing at a time, but it also
> that changes effective gear ratios. ?Change diameter and you must start
> over on all the test.
>
>> Al wrote:
>> >> Why is it that one cannot find "narrow" low profile tires?
>>
>> Zeke Yewdall wrote:
>>> Probably because they'd start becoming so low that there wasn't enough
>>> rubber to protect against pinch flats, or whatever you call them on
>>> automotive tires.
>>
>> Automotive tire design is heavily influenced by style. People tend to
>> buy what "looks cool" and only think about performance later.
>>
>> Bicycles and motorcycles run skinny low-profile tires. They obviously
>> work, too. There are no serious traction, life, or ride problems with
>> this approach. You used to see it on old cars, too; but styling won.
>>
>> Also, if you run hard skinny small tires, you'll need better
>> suspension for the same ride quality. For a long time, car designers
>> have depended on the large low-pressure tires to provide a lot of the
>> soft quiet ride that people expect.
>>
>> --
>> Lee A. Hart ? ? ? ?| Ring the bells that still can ring
>> 814 8th Ave N ? ? ? ?| Forget the perfect offering
>> Sartell MN 56377 ? ?| There is a crack in everything
>> leeahart earthlink.net ? ?| That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>



--
http://www.evalbum.com/2149



------------------------------

Message: 25
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 08:55:10 -0600
From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ESD plastic?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B040ACE.6090208@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Al wrote:
> Remember, anything that is anti-static is conductive!

There is a huge range of things in between insulators and conductors. To
be anti-static only requires that it not be a perfect insulator.
"Perfect" insulators are things like glass, ceramics, and "pure"
plastics (no additives).

*Lots* of things aren't perfect insulators, and yet conduct so little as
to be readily useful as insulators. Air, wood, paper, and plastics with
additives are the common choices.

--
Lee A. Hart  | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N  | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen



------------------------------

Message: 26
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 10:34:15 -0500
From: Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ESD plastic?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <2b4886ce0911180734idc7a849id5ff759dae5a9fc3@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 6:23 PM, Thor Johnson <
tjohnson@...> wrote:

> That would work even better as I could coat the bottom side to prevent
> ESD buildup, while leaving the topside pure and not having to worry
> about shocking people.  Anyone have suggestions?
>
> Thanks,
> Thor Johnson
>
> =======================simple anti static coating =======================
>
The simplest and cheapest anti static coating is "Fabric Softener"

  I just use either pink or blue liquid store brand laundry product fabric
softener and mix it with ten parts tap water. Then spray it on or wipe it on
with a lint free towel and let it dry undisturbed.

It works on CRT screens for TV, monitors, and oscilloscopes,as well as
plastic faces on meters. works on glass or plastic. I spray
my Formica covered tabletop and wipe it off to clean it then spray more on
and let it dry and it is then a static free workspace.

  Never had a static damaged electronic component! (I used to teach an
electronic assembly and soldering course, for certification in thru hole and
surface mount circuitry, ISO 2000, including rework.)

Regards,

     Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
        Phone (863) 289 - 0690

"We provide Mentoring, Small Group Instruction, and Hands-On training for
  the EV Technicians: Building, Converting, Repairing, and Servicing the
  Electric Vehicles of Today, and the Future."
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Message: 27
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:17:31 -0500
From: Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DOE approval of Florida's proposed $5k PHEV
	 conversion rebate program
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <2b4886ce0911180817l6665c887x893c02a838e4e917@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 7:40 AM, dave cover <davecover@...> wrote:

> Congratulations! I wonder if other states will adopt this.
>
> Dave Cover
>
> On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 12:08 AM, Charles Whalen <whalenc@...>
> wrote:
> > Final DOE approval and funding for our proposed PHEV conversion rebate
> > program came through today:
> >
> > http://www.energy.gov/news2009/8294.htm
> >
> > We'll be working with the Governor's office over the next few weeks to
> try
> > to get this $5k rebate program implemented and up and running by January.
> >
> > Rebate applications and disbursements will be coordinated by and through
> > Jonathan Ortiz of Foreign Affairs Auto in West Palm Beach,
> A123/Hymotion's
> > exclusive Florida installing dealer
> > (www.foreignaffairsauto.com/pages/hymotion).
> >
> > (The A123/Hymotion PHEV conversion kit for 2004 through 2009 model year
> > Toyota Priuses is the only PHEV conversion kit on the market that
> presently
> > qualifies for the $5k rebate by meeting federal goverment crash-test
> safety
> > standards and California emissions standards.)
> >
> > Charles Whalen
> > Florida EAA
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> > Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> > Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> > Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> http://www.evalbum.com/2149
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> ========for more details in another version of charles's update from a few
days ago====

> ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Charles Whalen" <
whalenc@...>
> To: "Florida EAA" <listserv@...>
> Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 5:14 PM
> Subject: update on proposed Florida rebate program for PHEV conversions
>
> We're continuing to work with Majority Leader Hasner and the Governor's
> office on the final structure and implementation of the plug-in hybrid
> conversion rebate program, which would provide a $5,000 rebate from the
> state for installation of a NHTSA and CARB certified aftermarket plug-in
> hybrid conversion kit, to convert a hybrid to a plug-in hybrid. The
> A123/Hymotion PHEV conversion kit for 2004 through 2009 model year Toyota
> Priuses is the only qualifying kit that currently meets the eligibility
> criteria for the rebate. (The 2010 model year Prius is NOT eligible for >
the
> rebate with the Hymotion kit.)
>
> Combined with the existing $1,000 federal tax credit, the $5,000 state
> rebate would bring the net cost of the conversion down to $5,000, >
calculated
> as follows:
>
> Hymotion kit $10,000
> Sales tax $600
> Destination charge $400
>
> Federal tax credit - $1,000
> State rebate - $5,000
> ----------
> Net cost $5,000
>
> The available funding will only provide for a limited number of rebates.
> There is a lot of fleet demand for the rebate, especially because none of
> our Hymotion fleet conversion Clean Cities applications got funded. So in
> view of that, we are now readjusting our sector allocation
recommendations
> between fleets and individual retail consumers for this state rebate
> program, with the bulk of the rebates now expected to go to the former.
> Given the tightness of the funding and the oversubscription of demand on >
the
> fleet side, we are going to recommend an individual retail consumer
sector
> allocation based primarily on *known* present demand, plus an additional
> factor of a relatively small amount above that to allow for anticipated
> future demand over the next 6-12 months.
>
> If you are a resident of Florida (with a Florida driver's license) who >
owns
> a 2004-2009 model year Prius and has a strong interest in taking
advantage
> of this, and for which a $5,000 rebate from the state would get you off >
the
> fence to pull the trigger on this and do the Hymotion conversion, could >
you
> please contact me off-list to let me know of your interest.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Charles Whalen
> Florida EAA
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Listserv mailing list
> Listserv@...
> http://lists.floridaeaa.org/mailman/listinfo/listserv_lists.floridaeaa.org

>
================================end of quote=================
Now this is the kind of news I like!

Regards,
     Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
        Phone (863) 289 - 0690

"We provide Mentoring, Small Group Instruction, and Hands-On training for
  the EV Technicians: Building, Converting, Repairing, and Servicing the
  Electric Vehicles of Today, and the Future."
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Message: 28
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:22:30 -0500
From: Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] GE getting into sodium batteries?
To: rodhower@..., Electric Vehicle Discussion List
	 <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <2b4886ce0911180822x42621607g7971ba810209fef7@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 8:58 AM, <rodhower@...> wrote:

> I just got this email from a recruiter,
> "I am responsible for recruiting key positions for General Electric. As you
> may know we are currently setting up a new business in New York State to
> develop & manufacture sodium battery technology for a number of sectors,
> including transportation, power, UPS & telecommunications."
> I know GE invested money in A123, but didn't realize they where playing
> with sodium batteries again.  I googled and found this,
>
>
http://inspiredeconomist.com/2009/05/12/ge-to-open-100-million-sodium-battery-pl\
ant-in-ny/
> and this,
>
>
http://blog.timesunion.com/capitol/archives/14402/gov-announces-sodium-battery-f\
acility-in-nisky/
> Looks like they'll be using it in a hybrid locomotive, right up Bob Rice's
> alley :-)
> Rod
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> =======================Wow Sodium Batteries ! =======================
I hope they build some small (6x10x12 inch) ones we might use. those
locomotive ones will likely be the size of footlockers.(;-))

Regards,

     Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
        Phone (863) 289 - 0690
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Message: 29
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:42:34 -0500
From: "Charles Whalen" <whalenc@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DOE approval of Florida's proposed $5k PHEV
	 conversion rebate program
To: "dave cover" <davecover@...>, "Electric Vehicle Discussion
	 List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <B471DB775EBD488689E4F550699C335E@whalenvoco1a7x>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Thanks, Dave!

Florida is the first in the nation to do this.  California is following
Florida's lead and also working on doing this, but from what I've heard, DOE
has not yet given California final approval and sign-off on their proposed
PHEV conversion rebate program.  I would expect that we'll also see other
states follow suit and do this.

Charles Whalen
Florida EAA


On Wednesday, November 18, 2009 7:40 AM, Dave Cover wrote:

Congratulations! I wonder if other states will adopt this.

Dave Cover


On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 12:08 AM, Charles Whalen <whalenc@...>
wrote:
> Final DOE approval and funding for our proposed PHEV conversion rebate
> program came through today:
>
> http://www.energy.gov/news2009/8294.htm
>
> We'll be working with the Governor's office over the next few weeks to try
> to get this $5k rebate program implemented and up and running by January.
>
> Rebate applications and disbursements will be coordinated by and through
> Jonathan Ortiz of Foreign Affairs Auto in West Palm Beach, A123/Hymotion's
> exclusive Florida installing dealer
> (www.foreignaffairsauto.com/pages/hymotion).
>
> (The A123/Hymotion PHEV conversion kit for 2004 through 2009 model year
> Toyota Priuses is the only PHEV conversion kit on the market that
> presently
> qualifies for the $5k rebate by meeting federal goverment crash-test
> safety
> standards and California emissions standards.)
>
> Charles Whalen
> Florida EAA
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>



--
http://www.evalbum.com/2149



------------------------------

Message: 30
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 12:10:22 -0500
From: "EVDL Administrator" <evpost@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] GE getting into sodium batteries?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B03E42E.12699.5D188E@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

On 18 Nov 2009 at 11:22, Dennis Miles wrote:

> > =======================Wow Sodium Batteries ! =======================
> I hope they build some small (6x10x12 inch) ones we might use. those
> locomotive ones will likely be the size of footlockers.(;-))

I might be wrong, but I took this to mean sodium-sulfur batteries.  They
were developed by Ford, believe it or not, about 40 years ago.  I think Ford
sold the rights to the Swiss firm ABB (Asea Brown Boveri) in the 1990s.

Ford built some prototype EV vans - the Ecostar - with sodium-sulfur
batteries maybe 10-15 years ago.  They abandoned the idea after a few of
them burned up. Ford even issued an official recall, IIRC.

I've read that sodium-sulfur batteries are today used for utility load
leveling.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" an "etpost" addresses will not
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =




------------------------------

Message: 31
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 13:19:37 -0400
From: Martin K <martin.klingensmith@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] GE getting into sodium batteries?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <d8f29a7d0911180919r5bbf6d61m2c5530e45fca92c3@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 1:10 PM, EVDL Administrator <evpost@...> wrote:
> On 18 Nov 2009 at 11:22, Dennis Miles wrote:
>
>> > =======================Wow Sodium Batteries ! =======================
>> I hope they build some small (6x10x12 inch) ones we might use. those
>> locomotive ones will likely be the size of footlockers.(;-))
>
> I might be wrong, but I took this to mean sodium-sulfur batteries. ?They
> were developed by Ford, believe it or not, about 40 years ago. ?I think Ford
> sold the rights to the Swiss firm ABB (Asea Brown Boveri) in the 1990s.
>
> Ford built some prototype EV vans - the Ecostar - with sodium-sulfur
> batteries maybe 10-15 years ago. ?They abandoned the idea after a few of
> them burned up. Ford even issued an official recall, IIRC.
>
> I've read that sodium-sulfur batteries are today used for utility load
> leveling.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>


GE seems to have a lot of patents on sodium-halide batteries (chlorine)
The first article mentions that the battery "uses regular table salt"
which I think the reporter may have obfuscated from a
sodium-chlorine-nickel chemistry.

Then again, GE has a LOT of patents on everything so you may be correct.
--
Martin K.



------------------------------

Message: 32
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 13:22:27 -0400
From: Martin K <martin.klingensmith@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] GE getting into sodium batteries?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <d8f29a7d0911180922v51454a0fv4b52971aaa15db0@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 1:19 PM, Martin K <martin.klingensmith@...> wrote:

>
> GE seems to have a lot of patents on sodium-halide batteries (chlorine)
> The first article mentions that the battery "uses regular table salt"
> which I think the reporter may have obfuscated from a
> sodium-chlorine-nickel chemistry.
>
> Then again, GE has a LOT of patents on everything so you may be correct.
> --
> Martin K.
>

As I re-read my email, I realized that they've found a battery
chemistry that sounds more scary than lead-acid. Next up is
hydroflouric-tetra-nitro-toluene or nuclear-plasma-laser-shark
batteries.

--
Martin K.



------------------------------

Message: 33
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 17:31:10 +0000
From: Evan Tuer <evan.tuer@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] GE getting into sodium batteries?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <cc7432af0911180931t1d9f2567gb4d24706e8a73b19@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 5:10 PM, EVDL Administrator <evpost@...> wrote:
> On 18 Nov 2009 at 11:22, Dennis Miles wrote:
>
> I might be wrong, but I took this to mean sodium-sulfur batteries. ?They
> were developed by Ford, believe it or not, about 40 years ago. ?I think Ford
> sold the rights to the Swiss firm ABB (Asea Brown Boveri) in the 1990s.
>
> Ford built some prototype EV vans - the Ecostar - with sodium-sulfur
> batteries maybe 10-15 years ago. ?They abandoned the idea after a few of
> them burned up. Ford even issued an official recall, IIRC.

Well, the article mentions nickel, as well as (probably erroneously)
"table salt", so this sounds more like the Zebra battery - NaAlCl4,
which is proven and in popular use in delivery vehicles already.  Many
of them being Ford Transits converted by Smiths, in fact.



------------------------------

Message: 34
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 09:44:59 -0800
From: Eric Poulsen <eric@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ESD plastic?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B04329B.4050608@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Theres a difference between "anti static" and "static dissipative".

The pink poly bags won't build a charge themselves, or at least will
dissipate charges, but don't shield anything from a static discharge.
You can destroy a component in a pink bag by touching the OUTSIDE of the
bag while charged.

The black bags have carbon on them, and conduct well, but they can
actually be a problem because they conduct away the static charge too
quickly

The metallized bags are dissipative and shielded -- these are often used
by component distributors to ship their components.

Thor Johnson wrote:
> I have access to a CO2 laser cutter; I was thinking about cutting out
> nice covers for my battery pack (400V divided into 22 packs), but I'm
> using the eLithion BMS with its bare boards mounted topside, and I
> remembered that lexan & plexi have an inordinate static buildup
> issue....
>
>
>
> Is there a good, inexpensive ESD plastic I can use for the covers
> (ideally, it would be transparent/translucent, but I can drill holes)?
> Would the "ESD" material's resistance be enough for safety?
>
>
>
> -Thor Johnson
>
> (Getting Closer)
>
>
>
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>
>
>



------------------------------

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End of EV Digest, Vol 28, Issue 25
**********************************

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (1)
#37641 From: ev-request@...
Date: Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:00 pm
Subject: EV Digest, Vol 28, Issue 26 		ev-request@...
Send Email Send Email
  
Send EV mailing list submissions to
	 ev@...

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	 http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
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of your message, and quote only the parts to which you're replying.



Today's Topics:

    1. Re: ESD plastic? (Elithion)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:42:50 -0800 (PST)
From: Elithion <web@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ESD plastic?
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <1258573370313-623592.post@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii



Thor Johnson wrote:
>
> ... covers for my battery pack... using the eLithion BMS with its bare
> boards mounted topside... static buildup issue....
>

The cell board's component side faces the cell. On the outer side, pretty
much all there is is a ground plane, directly connected to the negative
terminal of the cell through a very low inductance path. Any ESD will flow
directly into the cell. For a prismatic cell board, the barrel of the ring
terminal connected to the negative cell terminal is the most protruding
item, so that is all that your cover can touch; it cannot touch the pads for
the wires coming out of the cell board.
http://liionbms.com/php/prismatic_cell_boards.php#Mech%20specs Picture
I appreciate your wish to treat the cell boards with TLC, but I think you'll
find that they are quite robust.

D'de
Davide Andrea


-----
Davide Andrea
http://liionbms.com/php/index.php Elithion
--
View this message in context:
http://n4.nabble.com/ESD-plastic-tp622552p623592.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.



------------------------------

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End of EV Digest, Vol 28, Issue 26
**********************************

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (1)
#37642 From: ev-request@...
Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 2:24 pm
Subject: EV Digest, Vol 28, Issue 27 		ev-request@...
Send Email Send Email
  
Send EV mailing list submissions to
	 ev@...

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	 http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	 ev-request@...

You can reach the person managing the list at
	 ev-owner@...

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of EV digest..."


  Also, please be careful not to append the entire digest to your reply. Many
mail systems do this by default. Trim or delete the digest text from the bottom
of your message, and quote only the parts to which you're replying.



Today's Topics:

    1. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost (Roger Heuckeroth)
    2. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place - Businessmodel
       discussion... (Roger Heuckeroth)
    3. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost (Martin K)
    4. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place - Businessmodel
       discussion... (Douglas A. Stansfield)
    5. Re: GE getting into sodium batteries? (Roger Heuckeroth)
    6. OK you-all create an alternative to the car computer
       (Dennis Miles)
    7. Re: OK you-all create an alternative to the car computer
       (Peter C. Thompson)
    8. Re: OK you-all create an alternative to the car computer
       (Dennis Miles)
    9.  Can bus dash display (Collin Kidder)
   10. Re: Can bus dash display (Travis Gintz)
   11. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -Businessmodel
       discussion... (Richard Furniss)
   12. Re: Can bus dash display (Morgan LaMoore)
   13. Re: ESD plastic? (Thor Johnson)
   14. Optimum A123 Racing Pack (Roger Heuckeroth)
   15. Re: ESD plastic? (Roger Heuckeroth)
   16. Re: Optimum A123 Racing Pack (Morgan LaMoore)
   17. Slightly OT: Rust prevention was Re: Start up a RENT YOUR
       PACK OF BATTERIES store (David Nelson)
   18. Re: Optimum A123 Racing Pack (Bill Dube)
   19. Re: ESD plastic? (Lee Hart)
   20. Re: OK you-all create an alternative to the car computer
       (cowtown@...)
   21. GEM, Suzuki, misc (wwwmail@...)
   22. Re: Slightly OT: Rust prevention was Re: Start up a RENT YOUR
       PACK OF BATTERIES store (Dennis Miles)
   23. Re: ESD plastic? (Dennis Miles)
   24. Re: OK you-all create an alternative to the car computer
       (Dennis Miles)
   25. Re: Can bus dash display (Collin Kidder)
   26. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -Businessmodel
       discussion... (Dave Davidson)
   27. Re: Slightly OT: Rust prevention was Re: Start up a RENTYOUR
       PACK OF BATTERIES store (Bob Rice)
   28. Re: Optimum A123 Racing Pack (Roger Heuckeroth)
   29. Re: Optimum A123 Racing Pack (Ole-Egil Hvitmyren)
   30. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost (Jeff Shanab)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 16:03:58 -0500
From: Roger Heuckeroth <rheuckeroth@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <126B2DFF-B5C4-48FC-A5F5-500004BAB713@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"


On Nov 17, 2009, at 4:20 PM, Martin K wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 4:18 PM, Martin K <martin.klingensmith@...
> > wrote:
>
>>> Notice that *none* of the batteries used in *any* of the recent auto
>>> company produced EVs or hybrids are available from anyone except the
>>> original carmaker. Even though in most cases, these batteries were
>>> actually made by someone *other* than GM, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota,
>>> Honda,
>>> Nissan etc.
>>>
>>
>> But it's not apparent that a third party could be legally prevented
>> from making batteries that work with these cars (physical
>> restrictions
>> are fixed with a hack saw, basically.) As an example, Lexmark sued a
>> company that "circumvented" their lock-out for toner cartridges. They
>> lost the case.
>>
>> --
>> Martin K.
>>
>
>
> Getting back to the original point: if 20,000 people who owned used
> electric vehicles who couldn't buy new batteries said "please, someone
> sell us a battery pack" - you can bet someone's going to figure out
> how to take their money and sell them a battery.

Do you think Nissan / Better Place are going to make it so easy?  It
will no doubt be a "smart battery", and the cars computer will not
allow just any battery to be installed.  In order to make it work, you
will need to hack the code, and then get sued by Better Place.  I hope
I'm wrong...
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------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 16:12:20 -0500
From: Roger Heuckeroth <rheuckeroth@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
	 Businessmodel discussion...
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <8D9BDF25-55B1-4E76-A2BD-5143CE6EB547@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes


On Nov 17, 2009, at 9:53 PM, Richard Furniss wrote:

> Roger wrote:
> If I can't buy the
> battery, I won't buy the car.  Offering a lease option is fine, but
> mandating use of their network is not.
>
> The Leaf comes with a built in charger, you give it 110v or 220v at
> home. You don't have to change out your battery pack unless you want
> to refuel like a ICE, in minutes.

If you listen to Shai Agasi describe the Better Place Model... Even if
you charge at home (or anyplace else) you still will get charged for
the miles you use.  If you charge at home, you will get money back for
the electricity you supplied, but still get charged per mile.



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 17:19:19 -0400
From: Martin K <martin.klingensmith@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <d8f29a7d0911181319r1cf1ec1dh904aaf663e8bb451@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 5:03 PM, Roger Heuckeroth
<rheuckeroth@...> wrote:
>> Getting back to the original point: if 20,000 people who owned used
>> electric vehicles who couldn't buy new batteries said "please, someone
>> sell us a battery pack" - you can bet someone's going to figure out
>> how to take their money and sell them a battery.
>
> Do you think Nissan / Better Place are going to make it so easy? ?It
> will no doubt be a "smart battery", and the cars computer will not
> allow just any battery to be installed. ?In order to make it work, you
> will need to hack the code, and then get sued by Better Place. ?I hope
> I'm wrong...

You guys keep forgetting the original question I was responding to:
someone said that they hope Nissan doesn't change their battery design
for Rev.2 and leave people stranded with NO BATTERY option AT ALL. I
responded and said it's very unlikely. I was not talking about buying
the car sans-battery and trying to hack your own batteries in-place.

--
Martin K.



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 16:25:29 -0500
From: "Douglas A. Stansfield" <Doug@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
	 Businessmodel discussion...
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <00ff01ca6895$a75fce10$f61f6a30$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I really don't want to pay per mile.  As soon as that happens, the good old
government will say they want to tax you per mile because you don't pay
gasoline taxes anymore.....thus ruining the economic benefits that current
EVers enjoy!!!!


Sincerely;

Douglas A. Stansfield
President
www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
973-875-6276 (office)
973-670-9208 (cell)
973-440-1619 (fax)

WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS




-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
Of Roger Heuckeroth
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 4:12 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
Businessmodel discussion...


On Nov 17, 2009, at 9:53 PM, Richard Furniss wrote:

> Roger wrote:
> If I can't buy the
> battery, I won't buy the car.  Offering a lease option is fine, but
> mandating use of their network is not.
>
> The Leaf comes with a built in charger, you give it 110v or 220v at
> home. You don't have to change out your battery pack unless you want
> to refuel like a ICE, in minutes.

If you listen to Shai Agasi describe the Better Place Model... Even if
you charge at home (or anyplace else) you still will get charged for
the miles you use.  If you charge at home, you will get money back for
the electricity you supplied, but still get charged per mile.

_______________________________________________
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------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 16:29:32 -0500
From: Roger Heuckeroth <rheuckeroth@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] GE getting into sodium batteries?
To: rodhower@..., Electric Vehicle Discussion List
	 <ev@...>
Message-ID: <345EC45A-5467-4302-8070-CFDB4B6D8DD7@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes

Wonder if Warren Buffet had any influence on the locomotive first
strategy.  He loaned GE $10B of his own money and as you probably know
he just bought another railroad company.  Maybe setting himself up to
be king of low cost freight transport.

On Nov 18, 2009, at 8:58 AM, rodhower@... wrote:

> I just got this email from a recruiter,
> "I am responsible for recruiting key positions for General Electric.
> As you may know we are currently setting up a new business in New
> York State to develop & manufacture sodium battery technology for a
> number of sectors, including transportation, power, UPS &
> telecommunications."
> I know GE invested money in A123, but didn't realize they where
> playing with sodium batteries again.  I googled and found this,
>
http://inspiredeconomist.com/2009/05/12/ge-to-open-100-million-sodium-battery-pl\
ant-in-ny/
> and this,
>
http://blog.timesunion.com/capitol/archives/14402/gov-announces-sodium-battery-f\
acility-in-nisky/
> Looks like they'll be using it in a hybrid locomotive, right up Bob
> Rice's alley :-)
> Rod
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 17:33:52 -0500
From: Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...>
Subject: [EVDL] OK you-all create an alternative to the car computer
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>,
	 evtech@...
Message-ID:
	 <2b4886ce0911181433o7689152k9d04201cea4c350b@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

My Companions on the trip to EV dominance,
This is what might be called "A Real Conversion Implementer."

  If I want to convert a modern car to an EV, one impediment is the computer.
About 85 % of what it does relates to controlling the ICE, and I'm taking
that out. but if it fails later it will cost upwards of $400.00 to replace,
if available 10 years from now.

Assuming I want to do a full battery only system with a 144 to 288 v. pack
with independent charger and BMS to work with any ac/dc motor/controller
matched set.

  This can be as simple as two modules, one 12x24x6 in. box with fuses and
relays and input terminals from controlling switches like headlights, turn
signals, backup lights, brake, and interior, and ignition/start switch  and
connections for outputs to tail,backup,brake lights, turn signal and parking
lights, interior lights and headlights, and ignition switch to motor
controller.

  I wouldn't mind replacing the entire wiring harness if necessary.

  A second box 14x6x1 inch replaces the dash and has rocker switches for all
the functions listed except Brake, turn signal, flashers,and Wipers (Use
original switches for those.)

  If needed make another box for heater, defroster, and A. C. controls. but
these look nicer built in.

  Instrumentation? look at Leeahart@..., Now THAT is
instrumentation (Looks more impressive than a B-52)

Now this can all be done with 12v. relay logic or it can be more
sophisticated. Can you design it to last 20 years???

What if I find a potential glider that had an engine fire? they sell for
$200 at the auto auction?  If it didn't engulf th whole car the stuff under
the hood can be replacer for about $750 including repainting the front half.

Regards,
     Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
        Phone (863) 289 - 0690
"We provide Mentoring, Small Group Instruction, and Hands-On training for
the EV Technicians: Building, Converting, Repairing, and Servicing the
Electric Vehicles of Today, and the Future."
-------------- next part --------------
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------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 14:49:05 -0800
From: "Peter C. Thompson" <pthompso@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OK you-all create an alternative to the car
	 computer
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B0479E1.1080504@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed

Hi Dennis,

An interesting idea.  One thing to keep in mind is how all of these
boxes will talk together - CAN-bus (ISO 11898) has been standardized in
cars in the US since 1996, and in Europe since 2001 (2004 for diesel).

It's a very good bet that the ECU (engine computer) is also using that
CAN-bus.  So it will be important to discover what other functions the
ECU was covering.  For example, does the airbag require the ECU to send
"I'm operating" before turning itself on?  How does it send the tach
info?  Does it interpret the gas level?  Lots of stupid stuff to figure
out, sorry to say.

I guess it also depends on how advanced the car is as to how much of the
wiring you will need to rip out.  Some cars have a LOT of stuff on the
CAN-bus and some just barely use it.  *shrug*

Just my $0.02 worth.  :)

Cheers,
     Peter


Dennis Miles wrote:
> My Companions on the trip to EV dominance,
> This is what might be called "A Real Conversion Implementer."
>
>  If I want to convert a modern car to an EV, one impediment is the computer.
> About 85 % of what it does relates to controlling the ICE, and I'm taking
> that out. but if it fails later it will cost upwards of $400.00 to replace,
> if available 10 years from now.
>
> Assuming I want to do a full battery only system with a 144 to 288 v. pack
> with independent charger and BMS to work with any ac/dc motor/controller
> matched set.
>
>  This can be as simple as two modules, one 12x24x6 in. box with fuses and
> relays and input terminals from controlling switches like headlights, turn
> signals, backup lights, brake, and interior, and ignition/start switch  and
> connections for outputs to tail,backup,brake lights, turn signal and parking
> lights, interior lights and headlights, and ignition switch to motor
> controller.
>
>  I wouldn't mind replacing the entire wiring harness if necessary.
>
>  A second box 14x6x1 inch replaces the dash and has rocker switches for all
> the functions listed except Brake, turn signal, flashers,and Wipers (Use
> original switches for those.)
>
>  If needed make another box for heater, defroster, and A. C. controls. but
> these look nicer built in.
>
>  Instrumentation? look at Leeahart@..., Now THAT is
> instrumentation (Looks more impressive than a B-52)
>
> Now this can all be done with 12v. relay logic or it can be more
> sophisticated. Can you design it to last 20 years???
>
> What if I find a potential glider that had an engine fire? they sell for
> $200 at the auto auction?  If it didn't engulf th whole car the stuff under
> the hood can be replacer for about $750 including repainting the front half.
>
> Regards,
>     Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
> Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
> Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
>        Phone (863) 289 - 0690
> "We provide Mentoring, Small Group Instruction, and Hands-On training for
> the EV Technicians: Building, Converting, Repairing, and Servicing the
> Electric Vehicles of Today, and the Future."
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20091118/38ce12b7/attachmen\
t.html
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> .
>
>


--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Peter C. Thompson*
*Qualcomm, Incorporated.*     Office: +1 (858) 658-1936     Mobile: +1
(858) 692-3571
AIM: PThompson509       Yahoo!:peter_thompson       MSN:
N26688@...       Skype: PThompson509



------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 19:02:02 -0500
From: Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OK you-all create an alternative to the car
	 computer
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <2b4886ce0911181602g51046ddre7cd416663a91285@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 5:49 PM, Peter C. Thompson <pthompso@...>wrote:

> Hi Dennis,
>
> An interesting idea.  One thing to keep in mind is how all of these
> boxes will talk together - CAN-bus (ISO 11898) has been standardized in
> cars in the US since 1996, and in Europe since 2001 (2004 for diesel).
>
> It's a very good bet that the ECU (engine computer) is also using that
> CAN-bus.  So it will be important to discover what other functions the
> ECU was covering.  For example, does the airbag require the ECU to send
> "I'm operating" before turning itself on?  How does it send the tach
> info?  Does it interpret the gas level?  Lots of stupid stuff to figure
> out, sorry to say.
>
> I guess it also depends on how advanced the car is as to how much of the
> wiring you will need to rip out.  Some cars have a LOT of stuff on the
> CAN-bus and some just barely use it.  *shrug*
>
> Just my $0.02 worth.  :)
>
> Cheers,
>    Peter
>
>
> Dennis Miles wrote:
> > My Companions on the trip to EV dominance,
> > This is what might be called "A Real Conversion Implementer."
> >
> >  If I want to convert a modern car to an EV, one impediment is the
> computer.
> > About 85 % of what it does relates to controlling the ICE, and I'm taking
> > that out. but if it fails later it will cost upwards of $400.00 to
> replace,
> > if available 10 years from now.
> >
> > Assuming I want to do a full battery only system with a 144 to 288 v.
> pack
> > with independent charger and BMS to work with any ac/dc motor/controller
> > matched set.
> >
> >  This can be as simple as two modules, one 12x24x6 in. box with fuses and
> > relays and input terminals from controlling switches like headlights,
> turn
> > signals, backup lights, brake, and interior, and ignition/start switch
>  and
> > connections for outputs to tail,backup,brake lights, turn signal and
> parking
> > lights, interior lights and headlights, and ignition switch to motor
> > controller.
> >
> >  I wouldn't mind replacing the entire wiring harness if necessary.
> >
> >  A second box 14x6x1 inch replaces the dash and has rocker switches for
> all
> > the functions listed except Brake, turn signal, flashers,and Wipers (Use
> > original switches for those.)
> >
> >  If needed make another box for heater, defroster, and A. C. controls.
> but
> > these look nicer built in.
> >
> >  Instrumentation? look at Leeahart@..., Now THAT is
> > instrumentation (Looks more impressive than a B-52)
> >
> > Now this can all be done with 12v. relay logic or it can be more
> > sophisticated. Can you design it to last 20 years???
> >
> > What if I find a potential glider that had an engine fire? they sell for
> > $200 at the auto auction?  If it didn't engulf th whole car the stuff
> under
> > the hood can be replacer for about $750 including repainting the front
> half.
> >
> > Regards,
> >     Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
> > Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
> > Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
> >        Phone (863) 289 - 0690
> > "We provide Mentoring, Small Group Instruction, and Hands-On training for
> > the EV Technicians: Building, Converting, Repairing, and Servicing the
> > Electric Vehicles of Today, and the Future."
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL:
>
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t.html
> > _______________________________________________
> > General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> > Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> > Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> > Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> > .
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *Peter C. Thompson*
> *Qualcomm, Incorporated.*     Office: +1 (858) 658-1936     Mobile: +1
> (858) 692-3571
> AIM: PThompson509       Yahoo!:peter_thompson       MSN:
> N26688@...       Skype: PThompson509
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> ==============Do we want to use the CAN bus ?=============================
Or CAN we avoid it and simplify the wiring in the EV, for example under hood
to the trunk only needs 4 conductors. and 6 to the front lights. Everything
else is under the hood or in the dash
except Pack wiring. (I put pack wiring in two inch Aluminised  Exhaust
Tubing under the cabin floor.)
Regards,
     Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
        Phone (863) 289 - 0690
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Message: 9
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 16:09:40 -0800 (PST)
From: Collin Kidder <collink@...>
Subject: [EVDL]  Can bus dash display
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <1258589380447-623728.post@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


I'm looking for a dash mounted display which works over CAN bus. I've tried
google but the results aren't very promising. Everything is either outside
the country or terribly expensive. I found a German company that wants
something like 480 euros for their low end model.  I found a couple of
companies in England that seem to have something like what I want but they
don't have prices online. I refuse to do business with a company which will
post a product but not publish the price.

I'm mainly interested in getting data from the Elithion system for display.
They've recently got a dash display but I don't like it. It's just like 15
LED's on a board. I'm looking for something LCD.

Does anything exist for displaying can bus data from elithion? I'm looking
for something reasonably priced, say under $200. Anything over that and I'll
just use a 20x4 LCD hooked up to a PIC or something and make it myself.
--
View this message in context:
http://n4.nabble.com/Can-bus-dash-display-tp623728p623728.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.



------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 17:33:41 -0800
From: Travis Gintz <frodus17@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Can bus dash display
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <b44c78160911181733n1f0257c6y4cfbbe31bdafb1a5@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

You can also use the serial connection for the LCD... and parse the data you
want...
any good at programming?

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Collin Kidder <collink@...> wrote:

>
> I'm looking for a dash mounted display which works over CAN bus. I've tried
> google but the results aren't very promising. Everything is either outside
> the country or terribly expensive. I found a German company that wants
> something like 480 euros for their low end model.  I found a couple of
> companies in England that seem to have something like what I want but they
> don't have prices online. I refuse to do business with a company which will
> post a product but not publish the price.
>
> I'm mainly interested in getting data from the Elithion system for display.
> They've recently got a dash display but I don't like it. It's just like 15
> LED's on a board. I'm looking for something LCD.
>
> Does anything exist for displaying can bus data from elithion? I'm looking
> for something reasonably priced, say under $200. Anything over that and
> I'll
> just use a 20x4 LCD hooked up to a PIC or something and make it myself.
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://n4.nabble.com/Can-bus-dash-display-tp623728p623728.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>


--
Travis Gintz
1986 Honda VFR DC conversion
Http://blog.evfr.net/
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Message: 11
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 18:01:44 -0800
From: "Richard Furniss" <rfurniss1@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place
	 -Businessmodel discussion...
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <70075D0B070A4D4697E1867560168981@richard01>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

So what it comes down to is, we lease the batteries, person #1 drives the car
10K per year and #2 person drives his car 50K per year.

Person #1 batteries will last the 5 years and person #2 will kill his pack in 2
years. You can see why there needs to be a pay per mile in the mix. The
batteries are a energy storage unit that needs to be paid for, I don't mind
paying for using the energy storage unit as long as it fair. Somebody needs to
make a reasonable profit for building and supplying me (us) the batteries.

If the battery lease and mileage charge cost more than gasoline then the dealers
will have a lot of Leaf's on there lot because nobody is going to buy them.

The other thing is road tax, asphalt, painted lines, stop signs and traffic
lights pop up every time you buy gas, if you want the traffic lights to keep
working we need to find a fair way to pay for them.



   If you listen to Shai Agasi describe the Better Place Model... Even if
   you charge at home (or anyplace else) you still will get charged for
   the miles you use.  If you charge at home, you will get money back for
   the electricity you supplied, but still get charged per mile.

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Message: 12
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 20:12:17 -0600
From: Morgan LaMoore <morganl@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Can bus dash display
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <4230c7190911181812s44bcae8fia5a19f283b7613fe@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

The problem is software: who's going to write the custom software to
interface their display to the Elithion system?

If you're capable of it, I recommend just building it yourself.

-Morgan LaMoore

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 6:09 PM, Collin Kidder <collink@...> wrote:

>
> I'm looking for a dash mounted display which works over CAN bus. I've tried
> google but the results aren't very promising. Everything is either outside
> the country or terribly expensive. I found a German company that wants
> something like 480 euros for their low end model.  I found a couple of
> companies in England that seem to have something like what I want but they
> don't have prices online. I refuse to do business with a company which will
> post a product but not publish the price.
>
> I'm mainly interested in getting data from the Elithion system for display.
> They've recently got a dash display but I don't like it. It's just like 15
> LED's on a board. I'm looking for something LCD.
>
> Does anything exist for displaying can bus data from elithion? I'm looking
> for something reasonably priced, say under $200. Anything over that and
> I'll
> just use a 20x4 LCD hooked up to a PIC or something and make it myself.
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://n4.nabble.com/Can-bus-dash-display-tp623728p623728.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
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Message: 13
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 21:55:41 -0500
From: "Thor Johnson" <tjohnson@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ESD plastic?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <12E11415AF215A43A94A68630C6C4AFB24D2@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Ok.  I was just wanting to be sure.  I've been in electronics (optical
networks,
medical devices, small micros) for years, and I've seen the smallest
bzzt fry a 250M
prototype days before a trade show and a large ZOT! that appeared to
have no effect
except 6 months later, the laser's temperature controller would go
unstable after 20
hrs of operation with the only solution being "replace the opamp."

I dinna wanna risk frying a battery at a random time in the future just
because I put a
"pretty" finger-proof cover over the top.

Does anybody make silvered plexiglass (or lexan or...) sheets?

Thank you,
Thor Johnson



-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On
Behalf Of Elithion

Thor Johnson wrote:
>
> ... covers for my battery pack... using the eLithion BMS with its bare
> boards mounted topside... static buildup issue....
>

The cell board's component side faces the cell. On the outer side,
pretty
much all there is is a ground plane, directly connected to the negative
terminal of the cell through a very low inductance path. Any ESD will
flow
directly into the cell. For a prismatic cell board, the barrel of the
ring
terminal connected to the negative cell terminal is the most protruding
item, so that is all that your cover can touch; it cannot touch the pads
for
the wires coming out of the cell board.
http://liionbms.com/php/prismatic_cell_boards.php#Mech%20specs Picture
I appreciate your wish to treat the cell boards with TLC, but I think
you'll
find that they are quite robust.

D'de
Davide Andrea


-----
Davide Andrea
http://liionbms.com/php/index.php Elithion




------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 22:19:22 -0500
From: Roger Heuckeroth <rheuckeroth@...>
Subject: [EVDL] Optimum A123 Racing Pack
To: "ev@... Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <F9BA0F71-00FA-4122-9936-B600ABF5C85D@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes

I was thinking about what would be the ideal drag racing battery pack
for my set up.  I have a Warp 11 and a Z1K-HV.  A 20kW lithium battery
pack is on order which is optimized towards range, not power.

If I wanted decided to get a second "drag racing pack", what would the
ideal parameters be for such a pack.  As I understand it the Warp
motor should be limited to about 160-170V.  Got this from multiple
sources, so is there any value in getting a battery pack that produces
more than 1000 amps at 170V?

A123 cells seam like the gold standard for high power output.  As I
understand it the A123 26650 Cell can put out 70 Amps continuous and
120 A (for 10 sec).  I'm sure the voltage probably sags down to about
2.5 V/cell at 70 Amps, so I figure a 15P68S pack is needed to put out
1000 A at 170V.  That's 1020 cells, and even if I can get them for $5/
each thats still $5,100 + BMS.  I know others have spent way more, but
I'm not sure I want to race that bad:^)

The new A123 32113 cells look very interesting.  I assume they are
about a 10Ah cell.  If so, and they can put out 30C like their smaller
counterpart, then you would only need 4P68S to get the same
performance. That would only be 272 cells, but as far as I can tell
they are unoptanium at this point.

Anybody have any thoughts along these lines.



------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 22:26:51 -0500
From: Roger Heuckeroth <rheuckeroth@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ESD plastic?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <EDDE51EC-C6C0-4996-A202-41C50727B377@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes

Try this:

http://www.boedeker.com/pc-300_p.htm


On Nov 18, 2009, at 9:55 PM, Thor Johnson wrote:

> Ok.  I was just wanting to be sure.  I've been in electronics (optical
> networks,
> medical devices, small micros) for years, and I've seen the smallest
> bzzt fry a 250M
> prototype days before a trade show and a large ZOT! that appeared to
> have no effect
> except 6 months later, the laser's temperature controller would go
> unstable after 20
> hrs of operation with the only solution being "replace the opamp."
>
> I dinna wanna risk frying a battery at a random time in the future
> just
> because I put a
> "pretty" finger-proof cover over the top.
>
> Does anybody make silvered plexiglass (or lexan or...) sheets?
>
> Thank you,
> Thor Johnson
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On
> Behalf Of Elithion
>
> Thor Johnson wrote:
>>
>> ... covers for my battery pack... using the eLithion BMS with its
>> bare
>> boards mounted topside... static buildup issue....
>>
>
> The cell board's component side faces the cell. On the outer side,
> pretty
> much all there is is a ground plane, directly connected to the
> negative
> terminal of the cell through a very low inductance path. Any ESD will
> flow
> directly into the cell. For a prismatic cell board, the barrel of the
> ring
> terminal connected to the negative cell terminal is the most
> protruding
> item, so that is all that your cover can touch; it cannot touch the
> pads
> for
> the wires coming out of the cell board.
> http://liionbms.com/php/prismatic_cell_boards.php#Mech%20specs Picture
> I appreciate your wish to treat the cell boards with TLC, but I think
> you'll
> find that they are quite robust.
>
> D'de
> Davide Andrea
>
>
> -----
> Davide Andrea
> http://liionbms.com/php/index.php Elithion
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



------------------------------

Message: 16
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 21:47:13 -0600
From: Morgan LaMoore <morganl@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Optimum A123 Racing Pack
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <4230c7190911181947t6a574af2o3611cefe390e902f@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

That sounds about right (2.5V/cell, 170V under max sag, 1000/70 in parallel)

Where do you plan on getting your cells? I guess for drag racing the
e-bay cells might be OK?

-Morgan LaMoore

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 9:19 PM, Roger Heuckeroth
<rheuckeroth@...> wrote:
> I was thinking about what would be the ideal drag racing battery pack
> for my set up. ?I have a Warp 11 and a Z1K-HV. ?A 20kW lithium battery
> pack is on order which is optimized towards range, not power.
>
> If I wanted decided to get a second "drag racing pack", what would the
> ideal parameters be for such a pack. ?As I understand it the Warp
> motor should be limited to about 160-170V. ?Got this from multiple
> sources, so is there any value in getting a battery pack that produces
> more than 1000 amps at 170V?
>
> A123 cells seam like the gold standard for high power output. ?As I
> understand it the A123 26650 Cell can put out 70 Amps continuous and
> 120 A (for 10 sec). ?I'm sure the voltage probably sags down to about
> 2.5 V/cell at 70 Amps, so I figure a 15P68S pack is needed to put out
> 1000 A at 170V. ?That's 1020 cells, and even if I can get them for $5/
> each thats still $5,100 + BMS. ?I know others have spent way more, but
> I'm not sure I want to race that bad:^)
>
> The new A123 32113 cells look very interesting. ?I assume they are
> about a 10Ah cell. ?If so, and they can put out 30C like their smaller
> counterpart, then you would only need 4P68S to get the same
> performance. That would only be 272 cells, but as far as I can tell
> they are unoptanium at this point.
>
> Anybody have any thoughts along these lines.
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>



------------------------------

Message: 17
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 19:49:32 -0800
From: David Nelson <gizmoev@...>
Subject: [EVDL] Slightly OT: Rust prevention was Re: Start up a RENT
	 YOUR PACK OF BATTERIES store
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <c5b2f1dc0911181949o30aa6b16l16d0f71d7abe74ac@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

When I was a kid we lived on Majuro in the Marshal Islands in the Pacific
Ocean just north of the equator. (You can find it on Google Earth.) Every
time we bought a new pickup it went through Guam and was taken to the Zebart
undercoating shop and they did basically the same thing that Dennis
described. We could actually get over 5 years out of a pickup! By
comparison, a non-undercoated pickup would literally rust out in 2 years. I
remember my Dad talking about a tiny rust spot he saw one evening on the
bumper of the pickup. By the next morning there was a hole clear through the
bumper that you could see through! Undercoating does help.


--
David D. Nelson
http://evalbum.com/1328
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Message: 18
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 20:51:17 -0700
From: Bill Dube <billdube@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Optimum A123 Racing Pack
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <20091119035127.651C4194E82@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

You need to look at the KillaCycle web page.
http://www.killacycle.com/photos/battery-assembly-110s-x-9p/

Then you need to upgrade to a Z2K-HV. ;-)

Each cell will put out about 130 to 135 amps at room temperature
without sagging below half open circuit voltage. (OCV) The Zilla HV
will be happy at 375 volts (or less) input voltage. Unless you want
to be clever about removing "surface charge" before connection to the
controller, you would want to set the fully-charged voltage for the
pack at 375 (or less.) Thus, you would want 375/3.75 = 100 cells in series.

For 1000 amps, you would want 1000/130 = 8 cells in parallel. (If you
install heaters, or are willing to warm up the cells by multiple runs
in a short period, you can possibly go with fewer cells in parallel.)

Of course, if you are plunking down the cash for that pack, you
should definitely upgrade to a Z2K-HV and build a pack to take the
full 1800 amp input current. This would be 13 or 14 cells in parallel.

Bill Dube'

At 08:19 PM 11/18/2009, you wrote:
>I was thinking about what would be the ideal drag racing battery pack
>for my set up.  I have a Warp 11 and a Z1K-HV.  A 20kW lithium battery
>pack is on order which is optimized towards range, not power.
>
>If I wanted decided to get a second "drag racing pack", what would the
>ideal parameters be for such a pack.  As I understand it the Warp
>motor should be limited to about 160-170V.  Got this from multiple
>sources, so is there any value in getting a battery pack that produces
>more than 1000 amps at 170V?
>
>A123 cells seam like the gold standard for high power output.  As I
>understand it the A123 26650 Cell can put out 70 Amps continuous and
>120 A (for 10 sec).  I'm sure the voltage probably sags down to about
>2.5 V/cell at 70 Amps, so I figure a 15P68S pack is needed to put out
>1000 A at 170V.  That's 1020 cells, and even if I can get them for $5/
>each thats still $5,100 + BMS.  I know others have spent way more, but
>I'm not sure I want to race that bad:^)
>
>The new A123 32113 cells look very interesting.  I assume they are
>about a 10Ah cell.  If so, and they can put out 30C like their smaller
>counterpart, then you would only need 4P68S to get the same
>performance. That would only be 272 cells, but as far as I can tell
>they are unoptanium at this point.
>
>Anybody have any thoughts along these lines.
>
>_______________________________________________
>General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



------------------------------

Message: 19
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 23:16:08 -0500 (EST)
From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ESD plastic?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <22310539.1258604169074.JavaMail.root@...>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

From: Thor Johnson
> Ok. I was just wanting to be sure. I've been in electronics (optical
> networks, medical devices, small micros) for years, and I've seen the
> smallest bzzt fry a 250M prototype days before a trade show and a
> large ZOT! that appeared to have no effect except 6 months later,
> the laser's temperature controller would go unstable after 20
> hrs of operation with the only solution being "replace the opamp."
>
> I dinna wanna risk frying a battery at a random time in the future
> just because I put a "pretty" finger-proof cover over the top.

I think your concerns are justified. Engineers with many years of experience
still get surprised by electrostatic, noise, and environmental  problems. "That
ought to be good enough..." Nope! Things fail in completely different ways than
you expect!

Naked PC boards in a car are just asking for trouble. In many cases, they were
designed by someone with very little experience, and simply don't hold up in an
automotive environment. It's also likely that that little or no testing was one
(because the naive builder thinks it isn't necessary).

>Does anybody make silvered plexiglass (or lexan or...) sheets?

If it's silvered (or more likely, aluminized), then it will be conductive and
not very transparent. You'd be better off with a metal sheet.

--
Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the one who is
doing it.    --    Chinese proverb
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net



------------------------------

Message: 20
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 20:20:14 -0800
From: cowtown@...
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OK you-all create an alternative to the car
	 computer
To: ev@...
Message-ID:
	 <20091118202014.ywe2uwuw0kcosos4-pbjgbja@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes";
	 format="flowed"

<<< Or CAN we avoid it and simplify the wiring in the EV, for example
under hood
to the trunk only needs 4 conductors. and 6 to the front lights. Everything
else is under the hood or in the dash
except Pack wiring. (I put pack wiring in two inch Aluminised  Exhaust
Tubing under the cabin floor.) >>>

You CAN only simplify the wiring if you plan on doing without the
modern conveniences of ABS, airbags, security, and all the other items
dependent on on-board intelligence. If you want "modern", you have to
work modern, i.e. get hardware and do some programming to interface
with the existing system to emulate a running ICE. It has been done by
others on the list, but they weren't your average grease monkeys. If
you can't do (or pay someone to do) that, just convert something
older, simpler, and less "intelligent" to start with.



------------------------------

Message: 21
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 04:21:37 +0000 (UTC)
From: wwwmail@...
Subject: [EVDL] GEM, Suzuki, misc
To: ev@...
Message-ID:
	
<974945516.4362441258604497589.JavaMail.root@....\
net>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"



My first post - just learning - trying to learn - let me know if this is
appropriate for this forum (and host can remove this first line:>:>)





1.? I just rebuilt a GEM - Global Electric Vehicle (they seem to seel them from
Gov Excess so I got a good deal).? It uses 6 heavy duty batteries, is considered
a LSV but am having trouble with toning down the road vibrations fromt he stiff
frame and shocks.? I went to replace 2 rears (it is a dual reas shock system)
with 1967 VW shocks and is much better.? Has anyone done the same to the
fronts?? $21 per shock is better replacing my 12" wheels with?new 14" tires/rims


2.? Has anyone converted a 2000 Suzuki Grand Vitarra from combustion to battery
and if so, the type, quantity, and component motor set-up?? I have one that is
having the engine removed and the carcass scapped so wanted to take this on as a
winter project.



3.? Has anyone heard any more truth or folly?regarding magnetic repulse
technology to enhance battery use?



-Anita
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Message: 22
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 01:31:35 -0500
From: Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Slightly OT: Rust prevention was Re: Start up a
	 RENT YOUR PACK OF BATTERIES store
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <2b4886ce0911182231v7a7cccbep1e3b4cbde9b458b@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 10:49 PM, David Nelson <gizmoev@...> wrote:

> When I was a kid we lived on Majuro in the Marshal Islands in the Pacific
> Ocean just north of the equator. (You can find it on Google Earth.) Every
> time we bought a new pickup it went through Guam and was taken to the
> Zebart
> undercoating shop and they did basically the same thing that Dennis
> described. We could actually get over 5 years out of a pickup! By
> comparison, a non-undercoated pickup would literally rust out in 2 years. I
> remember my Dad talking about a tiny rust spot he saw one evening on the
> bumper of the pickup. By the next morning there was a hole clear through
> the
> bumper that you could see through! Undercoating does help.
>
>
> --
> David D. Nelson
> http://evalbum.com/1328
> ===================== Zebart, oh yes I remember that===============

David, in the mid sixties when I was in High School and Community College,
My Dad liked AMC autos, we had about four. And local Zebart shops did after
market undercoating with zinc loaded wax, then AMC made Zebarting a standard
upgrade and did it to every car they built at the factory.  Back then other
cars rusted and so we said, "On a quiet night you can hear a Ford rust!"
  (;-))     And, "Chevrolet, Chevrolet, pick it up? No, let it lay..."
Regards,
      Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
        Phone (863) 289 - 0690
"We provide Mentoring, Small Group Instruction, and Hands-On training for
the EV Technicians: Building, Converting, Repairing, and Servicing the
Electric Vehicles of Today, and the Future."
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Message: 23
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 01:42:31 -0500
From: Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ESD plastic?
To: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>, Electric Vehicle Discussion
	 List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <2b4886ce0911182242s34c1ba75o17045aed675907b0@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 11:16 PM, Lee Hart <leeahart@...> wrote:

> From: Thor Johnson
> > Ok. I was just wanting to be sure. I've been in electronics (optical
> > networks, medical devices, small micros) for years, and I've seen the
> > smallest bzzt fry a 250M prototype days before a trade show and a
> > large ZOT! that appeared to have no effect except 6 months later,
> > the laser's temperature controller would go unstable after 20
> > hrs of operation with the only solution being "replace the opamp."
> >
> > I dinna wanna risk frying a battery at a random time in the future
> > just because I put a "pretty" finger-proof cover over the top.
>
> I think your concerns are justified. Engineers with many years of
> experience still get surprised by electrostatic, noise, and environmental
>  problems. "That ought to be good enough..." Nope! Things fail in completely
> different ways than you expect!
>
> Naked PC boards in a car are just asking for trouble. In many cases, they
> were designed by someone with very little experience, and simply don't hold
> up in an automotive environment. It's also likely that that little or no
> testing was one (because the naive builder thinks it isn't necessary).
>
> >Does anybody make silvered plexiglass (or lexan or...) sheets?
>
> If it's silvered (or more likely, aluminized), then it will be conductive
> and not very transparent. You'd be better off with a metal sheet.
>
> --
> Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the one who is
> doing it.    --    Chinese proverb
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> ====================Hey BMS designers and builders take note.============

Lee, you said, "Naked PC boards in a car are just asking for trouble. In
many cases, they were designed by someone with very little experience, and
simply don't hold up in an automotive environment."

So why don't more builders spray on some "Conformal Coating?" It even comes
in a spray can...Protects unit from acid mist or fumes from the pack and
environmental moisture too.

Regards.
     Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
        Phone (863) 289 - 0690
"We provide Mentoring, Small Group Instruction, and Hands-On training for
the
  EV Technicians: Building, Converting, Repairing, and Servicing the
  Electric Vehicles of Today, and the Future."
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Message: 24
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 02:08:09 -0500
From: Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OK you-all create an alternative to the car
	 computer
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <2b4886ce0911182308r6ecdda46ja7fc2e2050fc17ac@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 11:20 PM, <cowtown@...> wrote:

> <<< Or CAN we avoid it and simplify the wiring in the EV, for example
> under hood
> to the trunk only needs 4 conductors. and 6 to the front lights. Everything
> else is under the hood or in the dash
> except Pack wiring. (I put pack wiring in two inch Aluminised  Exhaust
> Tubing under the cabin floor.) >>>
>
> You CAN only simplify the wiring if you plan on doing without the
> modern conveniences of ABS, airbags, security, and all the other items
> dependent on on-board intelligence. If you want "modern", you have to
> work modern, i.e. get hardware and do some programming to interface
> with the existing system to emulate a running ICE. It has been done by
> others on the list, but they weren't your average grease monkeys. If
> you can't do (or pay someone to do) that, just convert something
> older, simpler, and less "intelligent" to start with.
> ========================= I want a "Universal Solution" ===============
>
Are ABS unit controllers, Airbags, and security ECT. Really that different
in different cars, or could a Universal EV computer to handle those and all
the other functions be designed and built for a price less than the car
computer and ICE computer can be sold for at salvage? Or even a hundred
more?  ($300 to $500) If they are radically different how about a plug
in identity module for each make?
For the next five years conversions are going to be big business, then EV
Service will pass it by as used EV from Ford, Chevy, Toyota, Honda, ect.
come into the market. (My Prediction.)

Regards,
     Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
        Phone (863) 289 - 0690
"We provide Mentoring, Small Group Instruction, and Hands-On training for
  the EV Technicians: Building, Converting, Repairing, and Servicing
the Electric Vehicles of Today, and the Future."
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Message: 25
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 07:55:18 -0500
From: Collin Kidder <collink@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Can bus dash display
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <4B054036.9030008@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Yes, the elithion can output via rs232 as well but it's in a braindead
format. It seems that the output is in ascii text instead of binary.
That means that sending 0x32 actually takes two bytes ("3" "2") instead
of one. I don't really like that particular design decision. However, I
might still go that route as it's simpler than using CAN. I've got a
couple of arduinos laying around. I could use one of those if I go
rs232. To go to CAN I'd need to switch to a PIC18 or PIC24 chip and
build something around that. I can program as well as do electronics so
I suppose it looks as if I'll be making this myself. It'll build more
experience I guess... Though, if I went with CAN I could buy up
multiples of all the parts and sell them too. I don't know how many
people would be interested in an rs232 version but a CAN version might
be of interest to others. (And not for 480 euros!)

On 11/18/2009 8:33 PM, Travis Gintz wrote:
> You can also use the serial connection for the LCD... and parse the data you
> want...
> any good at programming?
>
> On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Collin Kidder<collink@...>  wrote:
>
>
>> I'm looking for a dash mounted display which works over CAN bus. I've tried
>> google but the results aren't very promising. Everything is either outside
>> the country or terribly expensive. I found a German company that wants
>> something like 480 euros for their low end model.  I found a couple of
>> companies in England that seem to have something like what I want but they
>> don't have prices online. I refuse to do business with a company which will
>> post a product but not publish the price.
>>
>> I'm mainly interested in getting data from the Elithion system for display.
>> They've recently got a dash display but I don't like it. It's just like 15
>> LED's on a board. I'm looking for something LCD.
>>
>> Does anything exist for displaying can bus data from elithion? I'm looking
>> for something reasonably priced, say under $200. Anything over that and
>> I'll
>> just use a 20x4 LCD hooked up to a PIC or something and make it myself.
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://n4.nabble.com/Can-bus-dash-display-tp623728p623728.html
>> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
>> Nabble.com.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>>
>
>



------------------------------

Message: 26
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 08:04:09 -0500
From: Dave Davidson <davetex99@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place
	 -Businessmodel discussion...
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <36b5c54c0911190504i24e2a1f8ya11656d5b1c87af7@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

That would be a deal killer for me. From what I've read on lithium
batteries, their calendar life takes its toll long before the cycle
life. I would prefer to just buy my batteries and be done with it. If
I lease, I'm still paying for the batteries plus someone else's
overhead and profit. If they want to make it an option, that's fine,
but don't make it mandatory. When I buy my gas car, I don't lease any
part of it and don't want to on my EV either.

Dave

On 11/18/09, Richard Furniss <rfurniss1@...> wrote:
> So what it comes down to is, we lease the batteries, person #1 drives the
> car 10K per year and #2 person drives his car 50K per year.
>
> Person #1 batteries will last the 5 years and person #2 will kill his pack
> in 2 years. You can see why there needs to be a pay per mile in the mix. The
> batteries are a energy storage unit that needs to be paid for, I don't mind
> paying for using the energy storage unit as long as it fair. Somebody needs
> to make a reasonable profit for building and supplying me (us) the
> batteries.
>
> If the battery lease and mileage charge cost more than gasoline then the
> dealers will have a lot of Leaf's on there lot because nobody is going to
> buy them.
>
> The other thing is road tax, asphalt, painted lines, stop signs and traffic
> lights pop up every time you buy gas, if you want the traffic lights to keep
> working we need to find a fair way to pay for them.
>
>
>
>   If you listen to Shai Agasi describe the Better Place Model... Even if
>   you charge at home (or anyplace else) you still will get charged for
>   the miles you use.  If you charge at home, you will get money back for
>   the electricity you supplied, but still get charged per mile.
>
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> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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>
>

--
Sent from my mobile device



------------------------------

Message: 27
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 08:08:07 -0500
From: "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Slightly OT: Rust prevention was Re: Start up a
	 RENTYOUR PACK OF BATTERIES store
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <5C4EAD30E73D412C826EBBD93D500D82@adminwlzisp2uc>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dennis Miles" <dmiles33810@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 1:31 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Slightly OT: Rust prevention was Re: Start up a RENTYOUR
PACK OF BATTERIES store


> On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 10:49 PM, David Nelson <gizmoev@...> wrote:
>
>> When I was a kid we lived on Majuro in the Marshal Islands in the Pacific
>> Ocean just north of the equator. (You can find it on Google Earth.) Every
>> time we bought a new pickup it went through Guam and was taken to the
>> Zebart
>> undercoating shop and they did basically the same thing that Dennis
>> described. We could actually get over 5 years out of a pickup! By
>> comparison, a non-undercoated pickup would literally rust out in 2 years.
>> I
>> remember my Dad talking about a tiny rust spot he saw one evening on the
>> bumper of the pickup. By the next morning there was a hole clear through
>> the
>> bumper that you