EV Digest 4512

Topics covered in this issue include:

   1) Re: e mower
	 by "STEVE CLUNN" <steveclunn@...>
   2) Re: Trojan vs US batt,   US batt phone number? Re: 12v Flooded battery
advice.
	 by "Mark Hanson" <mhanson@...>
   3) Portland, OR visit
	 by Jim Coate <jbc@...>
   4) Re: Ni cad charging,  Re: Very simple BMS
	 by Christopher Zach <czach@...>
   5) Re: Prius
	 by "Tim Humphrey" <hump@...>
   6) Re: Ni cad charging,  Re: Very simple BMS
	 by Christopher Zach <czach@...>
   7) NiCD batteries and metal
	 by Christopher Zach <czach@...>
   8) Re: PFC Chargers...Let's hear the Positive Side!
	 by "David Roden" <evpost@...>
   9) Re: Ni cad charging,  Re: Very simple BMS
	 by "John G. Lussmyer" <Cougar@...>
  10) Re: NiCD batteries and metal
	 by Mark Farver <mfarver@...>
  11) Re: Ni cad charging,  Re: Very simple BMS
	 by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
  12) Re: Hacking the Dymaxion idea
	 by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
  13) Re: NiCD batteries and metal
	 by Dave Cover <davecover@...>
  14) Re: PFC Chargers...Let's hear the Positive Side!
	 by Evan Tuer <evan.tuer@...>
  15) RangerEV Lottery Announced by Ford
	 by Marc Geller <Marc@...>
  16) Trojan cooks the books?
	 by "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
  17) RangerEV Lottery
	 by Marc Geller <Marc@...>
  18) Re: PFC Chargers...Let's hear the Positive Side!
	 by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
  19) Re: NiCD batteries and metal
	 by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
  20) Re: Portland, OR visit
	 by Victor Tikhonov <vtikhono@...>
  21) Re: NiCD batteries and metal
	 by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
  22) Drive Sprocket for ETEK
	 by BR Deshpande <bdeshpan@...>
  23) Re: PFC Chargers...Let's hear the Positive Side!
	 by "Rich Rudman" <rmanzan@...>
  24) Re: PFC Chargers...Let's hear the Positive Side!
	 by "Rich Rudman" <rmanzan@...>
  25) Re: PFC Chargers...Let's hear the Positive Side!
	 by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <evpost@...>
  26) Re: Drive Sprocket for ETEK
	 by "Roderick Wilde" <roderick@...>
  27) Re: Dymaxion for hybrid RV , Aero, ground effect and Van conversion
	 by E_vette@...
  28) Re: Drive Sprocket for ETEK
	 by cowtown@...
  29) RE: Drive Sprocket for ETEK & Freewheel
	 by "Stu or Jan" <stu@...>
  30) Re: Drive Sprocket for ETEK
	 by "Andre' Blanchard" <andre@...>
  31) Contact Info for Tim H
	 by "jm_silverman" <jm_silverman@...>
  32) RE: Prius
	 by "djsharpe" <djsharpe@...>
  33) Re: Prius
	 by Nick Austin <nick@...>

some picutres of my e mower are up at
http://www.grassrootsev.com/projects.htm
I put  3 yellow tops and some tires on it and drive it around , things are
looking good , getting the deck set up will take some time as its missing
lots of parts  .
STEVE CLUNN"

US Battery at 653 Industrial Park Dr., Evans, Georgia is 1-800-522-0945 and
Terry Agrileus at X20 is whom I ordered previously.  Nuaz Kareshi - eng is
the California location at 1-800-695-0945 and previously worked at Trojan.
I get about 10k miles out of US and about 12-14k miles from Trojans over the
last 30 years with 6v'ers doing about 1-2k miles better than 8v'ers.  Best
cost per mile was the USBatt 6V'ers as Trojan's have become pricey.  I
presently got a set of Exide's from Sam's in Jan and they replaced a dud (in
4 months) for free.  I tried sealed batts once but the cost per mile was
poor.

I played with some (central watered) STM-180 ni-cads recently but they
required 120% charging vs 110% according to Saft manual/website, had a
drinking problem (with my two cycles per day 300 miles per week) and
couldn't see the cells when they were low which is a fundemental problem
that they were not willing to correct (cell indicators).  Occasionally some
of the end cells wouldn't fill and had to be reverse filled.  All the
batteries had to be mounted in a side view visible area which is not
practical in an EV.

Have a nice day, Mark www.solectrol.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "jerry dycus" <jerry5335@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 10:24 PM
Subject: Trojan vs US batt, US batt phone number? Re: 12v Flooded battery
advice.


>
>          Hi Ryan, Lawrence and All,
>
> --- Ryan Stotts <stotts.ryan@...> wrote:
>
> > Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> >
> > > Barring price would the Trojans be the ones?
> >
> > As far as flooded's go, I'm under the impression
> > Trojans are the best.
>
>       They and US batt are about the same and many
> were designed by the same person, Narzai? Now with US
> batt.
>       Anyone have his phone number or e mail, real
> name, as I need to talk to him?
>      US batt is much friendlier to EV'ers too vs
> Trojan who doesn't seem to care.
>                  HTH's,
>                    Jerry Dycus
>
>
>
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search.
> http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
>

I'll be visiting the Portland, Oregon area at the end of July with my
fiancé and would love to meet up with some EVers in the area if anyone
is around for eating and/or show & tell.

We are available Saturday or Sunday July 30th or 31st, sometime in the
afternoon or evening. As east coasters, it would be great to see the
stuff west coast legends are made of. Thanks.

--
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak's
1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
http://www.eeevee.com

Rush wrote:
> Chris,
>
> I have a serial emeter and will be using a basic/stamp chip in a charger, I
would love to be able to use it also for reading when the charging is done.
Could you send me the programming that you did for the stamp? I'm real new to
the stamp programming so any help would be helpful. I've gotten the parallax
board of education kit and am reading the manual

Honestly, my serious recommendation is to take a week and go through the
whole Parallax book. You will learn a *lot* from it, much more than just
downloading snippets of code.

Give it a shot.
Chris

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...] On
> Behalf Of John Wayland
> Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 1:04 AM
> To: ev@...
> Subject: Re: Prius
>
> Hello ot All,
>
> Christopher Robison wrote:
>
>> Not that this is really connected with the topic at all, but on the
>> subject of the Prius:  For our meeting on Saturday, the AustinEV crew
>> gathered at the home of one of our members, Andrew Donoho, who bravely
>> offered up his 2004 Toyota Prius to receive the EV-mode kit from the
>> folks at Coastal Electronic Technologies. ...The result was a Prius
>> that drove in silence to 34mph. The disappointing part was the range.
>> While the battery pack is well-suited to hybrid use, it's sadly too
>> small to be very useful as an EV pack.
>
> Friend Geoff Shepherd has his new '05 model that he equipped with the Euro
> option of the 'EV' button, also. It does the same thing and makes one wish
> for a bigger battery pack, or a LiIon type of the same weight, and an
> on-board plug in charger.
>
> See Ya.....John Wayland
>

My wife and I test drove the new Toyota Highlander Hybrid the other day. The
salesman did a pretty good job of trying
to educate us on how hybrid technology works. He was adamant though, that the
hybrids would not get their EPA rated
mileage. I told him about John's stories, but he wasn't hearing it. I also told
him I was upset that I couldn't buy a
Rav4-EV. No comment. He just said that hybrids are the future and Toyota plans
to make them an option in 70% of their
models.

As we were going for the test drive. My wife was driving, I was in the back seat
and he was in the passenger seat
explaining the power flow. For those not familiar, Toyota has a cool display on
the dash that shows graphically which
way the power is being distributed in the system.  We started to descend a small
hill and he remarked, "See the system
is using regenerative braking to capture some energy to re-charge the battery.
This is energy that would be wasted in
a non-hybrid car but is stored in the hybrid to be re-used for acceleration. In
fact I get a lot of customers that ask
where or how often they have to plug the car in, and I have to explain to them
that they don't. The car will take care
of the battery on it's own. Notice just going down this hill the battery has
already filled up two more bars."

At this point I simply commented.. " Yeah but it sure would be nice if I COULD
plug it in, and not need gas."

At which point, my wife echoed enthusiastically, "Yeah! That would be SWEET!"

He just sat there with a puzzled look on his face.

Nice truck, but I'm not spending 42 grand for it. I'll wait for a Foxtrot or a
Freedom first.



--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"Ignorance is treatable, with a good prognosis. However, if left untreated, it
develops into Arrogance, which is often
fatal. :-)" -- Lee Hart

Get your own FREE evgrin.com email address;
send a request to ryan at evsourcecom

>     On my SAFT's they are not charged until 1.6v/cell
> at least. So it looks like you are not fully charging
> your cells.

It's really possible that these batteries are just plain *new* and need
to be broken in for a few dozen cycles or so. What I'm seeing might not
be what I will see in a few months; heck I put 65+ah in for the
comissioning charge and they were not even warm.

I'll monitor them with my LED battery monitor in 10 cell blocks and
watch for anything going really weird. If a block has a cell go to zero
the monitor will pick it up fast.

That's why they are in the Elec-trak; research. On a happier note I got
my batch of 100 nickel plated copper busbars and nickel plated bolts and
washers. They are without a doubt things of *beauty*, jewelry quality. I
think this will end all that tarnishing around the batteries; KaOH
*EATS* copper alive.

Should make life easy for installing these batteries. No more 10 gauge
crimped interconnects for me!

Chris

Got an interesting question: I know that H2SO4 does a serious number on
metal. Pits it, burns it, corrodes it, makes rust happen. So you need to
put your batteries in a liner, paint everything well, and so forth.

Does the electrolyte in NiCDs do the same thing to sheet steel? How
about other things like copper? Should I have a liner in the Elec-trak
battery box to prevent wash-off from the batteries from getting on the
steel? Is plastic safe as a liner?

Chris

On 18 Jul 2005 at 14:16, ProEV wrote:

> Finally we settled for the PFC50 running off the 30 amp 110 outlet. The pack
> voltage was about 320 volt. We soon had the car charging at 10 amps. After
> about an hour, the outlet went dead. We chased down a maintenance guy. He
> reset the main breaker but told us that it was almost too hot to touch. We
> ended up charging at 6 amps.

Something's not right here.  That's the behaviour of a NON-PFC charger.


David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator

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At 07:58 AM 7/19/2005, Christopher Zach wrote:
>That's why they are in the Elec-trak; research. On a happier note I got my
>batch of 100 nickel plated copper busbars and nickel plated bolts and
>washers. They are without a doubt things of *beauty*, jewelry quality. I
>think this will end all that tarnishing around the batteries; KaOH *EATS*
>copper alive.

Actually, the bolts and washers are just stainless steel.
--
John G. Lussmyer      mailto:Cougar@...
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....  http://www.CasaDelGato.com

Christopher Zach wrote:

> Got an interesting question: I know that H2SO4 does a serious number
> on metal. Pits it, burns it, corrodes it, makes rust happen. So you
> need to put your batteries in a liner, paint everything well, and so
> forth.
>
> Does the electrolyte in NiCDs do the same thing to sheet steel? How
> about other things like copper? Should I have a liner in the Elec-trak
> battery box to prevent wash-off from the batteries from getting on the
> steel? Is plastic safe as a liner?
>
My understanding is the electrolyte is a little less corrosive on steel,
but a serious problem on aluminum.  Its kinda a given flooded batteries
will get their chemistry all over everything.   A plastic box is
probably a good idea in either case.

Mark



> Chris
>
>
> !DSPAM:42dd170a178417078914163!
>

Rush wrote:
> I have a serial emeter and will be using a basic/stamp chip in
> a charger, I would love to be able to use it also for reading
> when the charging is done.

Actually, all you need to do is orient a phototransistor to look at the
"full" LED on the bargraph of the E-meter. When it starts blinking, the
E-meter says the battery is full; turn off the charger.
--
Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has! -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

Stu or Jan wrote:
> I wonder what Bucky would come up with today?
> What design items are on your wish list?

You have to be careful how you approach a problem like this, or you will
get the same tired old answers. If you ask, "How can I pound in a
nail?", the answer will always be "hammer". But if you ask, "How can I
attach two pieces of wood?", then you'll get lots of answers; not just
the obvious ones (nails, screws, glue, duct tape...) The best answer is
usually not the first and most obvious one. For instance, "best" might
be to eliminate the need for two pieces, and make it out of a single
piece of wood.

Bucky didn't start by saying he wanted a car; he said he wanted a
"transporter" -- a device to move people from place to place, with a
minimum of limitations and infrastructure. Originally, it didn't even
have wheels -- it was an aircraft!

He also had some guiding principles that strongly influenced his
designs. He didn't worry about appearance or styling; he figured if it
was supremely functional, it would automatically be beautiful. He coined
the word "synergy" to describe designs where every part has many
functions, and no part is included unless it can be justified many ways.

So, if he were doing a Dymaxion II today...

I expect the basic requirements would be the same; a device for
transporting people between their homes and businesses, with as little
new infrastructure as possible. The device should be economical,
comfortable, non-polluting, and safe.

Start from there, and see where it leads!  :-)
--
Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has! -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

--- Mark Farver <mfarver@...> wrote:
> >
> My understanding is the electrolyte is a little less corrosive on steel,
> but a serious problem on aluminum.  Its kinda a given flooded batteries
> will get their chemistry all over everything.   A plastic box is
> probably a good idea in either case.
>

If I have plastic battery boxes and I vent them away from the frame, do you
think I could build
the frames for the boxes out of aluminum? I intend to have muffin fans venting
through some kind
of ducts to the underside of the car. The fans will run any time the cells are
charging. I can get
12 volt brushless fans for a reasonable price.

Dave Cover

On 7/19/05, David Roden <evpost@...> wrote:
> On 18 Jul 2005 at 14:16, ProEV wrote:
>
> > Finally we settled for the PFC50 running off the 30 amp 110 outlet. The pack
> > voltage was about 320 volt. We soon had the car charging at 10 amps. After
> > about an hour, the outlet went dead. We chased down a maintenance guy. He
> > reset the main breaker but told us that it was almost too hot to touch. We
> > ended up charging at 6 amps.
>
> Something's not right here.  That's the behaviour of a NON-PFC charger.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator

Well, 10A*320V = 3.2kW.
  Let's say the PFC50 charger is 85% efficient at this setting:  3680W.
  Now let's say the RMS voltage at the socket dropped to 100VAC under
load: nearly 37A.  Perhaps that's a worst case, but I could believe it
getting too hot, even with a perfect power factor.

--Apple-Mail-119--398880388
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=EF=BF=BC
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-ranger19jul19,1,5984495.story?=20=

coll=3Dla-headlines-california
Electric Pickups to Keep Truckin'

By Eric Bailey
Times Staff Writer

July 19, 2005

SACRAMENTO =E2=80=94 Six months after public protests prompted Ford =
Motor =20
Co. to stop demolishing the last of its electric vehicles, the auto =20
giant announced a plan Monday to return the surviving electric Ranger =20=

pickups to erstwhile owners.

Ford officials said about 200 of the last electric pickups would be =20
sold to former leaseholders selected in a lottery.

"It has taken a little bit longer than we wanted or expected," said =20
Niel Golightly, Ford's director of sustainable business strategies.

Electric vehicle advocates welcomed the announcement but said it was =20
little more than a symbolic gesture.

"What we really need is for Ford to restart its EV program, to =20
acknowledge that America is addicted to oil and needs to get off it," =20=

said Jennifer Krill of Rainforest Action Network in San Francisco. =20
"Their customers are clamoring for smart, pollution-free vehicles."

Her group was among several that joined Ranger EV owner Dave Raboy, a =20=

Mariposa County rancher and software consultant, in a weeklong =20
sidewalk vigil in January outside a Sacramento Ford dealership.

The automaker agreed to sell Raboy his truck for $1. Golightly said =20
about 21 other electric Ranger leaseholders also took advantage of =20
the offer as lease terms ended for their trucks.

Under the program announced Monday, the last of the pickups set to =20
come off lease between now and 2006 will be refurbished by a =20
Sacramento firm, Blue Sky Motors, and then offered to their current =20
leaseholders for $6,000. The fee would pay for the costs of =20
refurbishment.

Any unwanted trucks will be sold to former Ranger EV owners who gave =20
back their trucks before Ford reversed course in January and began =20
offering them for sale. Most of the 1,500 electric Rangers produced =20
by Ford were scrapped.

Ford will hold a lottery on Sept. 23 to establish a list of who gets =20
first choice for any unwanted trucks as they come off leases.

Golightly said he suspects there will be a big demand by former =20
owners of the trucks but that any left unclaimed after the lottery =20
will be offered for sale by Blue Sky Motors on the open market.



If you want other stories on this topic, search the Archives at =20
latimes.com/archives.

=EF=BF=BC
Article licensing and reprint options


Copyright 2005 Los Angeles Times | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service
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Message-ID: <005501c58c80$4f05f460$897ba8c0@lawrence6tx2j1>
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Subject: Trojan cooks the books?
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:38:35 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	 format=flowed;
	 charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I was looking at capacity ratings of batteries and Trojan seems to have more
amp hour capacity than other manufacturers with less weight on their 12v
batteries.  I noticed U. S. has a heavier battery(slightly) with slightly
less capacity(EV - 145). I am under the impression that this battery was
made specifically for EV's.  Saves about 1/3 the weight to get 120v pack.
Any chance that heavier battery will be more durable?  Seems the more weight
the better for durability.  I also found out that the 8v U.S. batteries at
least use the same technology as as their 6v counterparts.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
bassoon@...
415-821-3519

--Apple-Mail-119--398880388

Mime-Version: 1.0
To: EV Discussion <ev@...>
Message-Id: <3292B929-CA2B-4E96-845C-2A4F77FD5FD8@...>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	 charset=WINDOWS-1252;
	 delsp=yes;
	 format=flowed
From: Marc Geller <Marc@...>
Subject: RangerEV Lottery
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:41:03 -0700
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Electric Pickups to Keep Truckin'
By Eric Bailey
Times Staff Writer

July 19, 2005

SACRAMENTO — Six months after public protests prompted Ford Motor Co.
to stop demolishing the last of its electric vehicles, the auto giant
announced a plan Monday to return the surviving electric Ranger
pickups to erstwhile owners.

Ford officials said about 200 of the last electric pickups would be
sold to former leaseholders selected in a lottery.

"It has taken a little bit longer than we wanted or expected," said
Niel Golightly, Ford's director of sustainable business strategies.

Electric vehicle advocates welcomed the announcement but said it was
little more than a symbolic gesture.

"What we really need is for Ford to restart its EV program, to
acknowledge that America is addicted to oil and needs to get off it,"
said Jennifer Krill of Rainforest Action Network in San Francisco.
"Their customers are clamoring for smart, pollution-free vehicles."

Her group was among several that joined Ranger EV owner Dave Raboy, a
Mariposa County rancher and software consultant, in a weeklong
sidewalk vigil in January outside a Sacramento Ford dealership.

The automaker agreed to sell Raboy his truck for $1. Golightly said
about 21 other electric Ranger leaseholders also took advantage of
the offer as lease terms ended for their trucks.

Under the program announced Monday, the last of the pickups set to
come off lease between now and 2006 will be refurbished by a
Sacramento firm, Blue Sky Motors, and then offered to their current
leaseholders for $6,000. The fee would pay for the costs of
refurbishment.

Any unwanted trucks will be sold to former Ranger EV owners who gave
back their trucks before Ford reversed course in January and began
offering them for sale. Most of the 1,500 electric Rangers produced
by Ford were scrapped.

Ford will hold a lottery on Sept. 23 to establish a list of who gets
first choice for any unwanted trucks as they come off leases.

Golightly said he suspects there will be a big demand by former
owners of the trucks but that any left unclaimed after the lottery
will be offered for sale by Blue Sky Motors on the open market.


--Apple-Mail-119--398880388

Message-ID: <42DD3813.7673@...>
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:27:47 -0700
From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: ev@...
Subject: Re: PFC Chargers...Let's hear the Positive Side!
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

ProEV wrote:
>> we settled for the PFC50 running off the 30 amp 110 outlet.
>> The pack voltage was about 320 volt. We soon had the car
>> charging at 10 amps. After about an hour, the outlet went dead.
>> We chased down a maintenance guy. He reset the main breaker
>> but told us that it was almost too hot to touch. We ended up
>> charging at 6 amps.

David Roden wrote:
> Something's not right here.  That's the behaviour of a NON-PFC charger.

No, it's just what I would expect. He was plugged into a 30amp 120vac
outlet; that's 3600 watts available. He was charging a 320v pack at 10
amps; that's 3200 watts output. 3200w/3600w = 88% efficiency, just about
what I'd expect. So he was maxing out the outlet, and it tripped.
--
Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has! -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

--Apple-Mail-119--398880388

Message-ID: <42DD38E7.1D92@...>
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:31:19 -0700
From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: ev@...
Subject: Re: NiCD batteries and metal
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Mark Farver wrote:
> My understanding is the electrolyte is a little less corrosive
> on steel, but a serious problem on aluminum. Its kinda a given
> flooded batteries will get their chemistry all over everything.
> A plastic box is probably a good idea in either case.

I agree. Any electrolyte (sulfuric acid, sodium hydroxide, or just road
salt) will greatly accellerate corrosion. They also provide a path for
leakage currents to flow, causing further corrosion.
--
Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has! -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

--Apple-Mail-119--398880388

Message-ID: <42DD2F3B.40007@...>
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:50:03 -0700
From: Victor Tikhonov <vtikhono@...>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: ev@...
Subject: Re: Portland, OR visit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

John (Wayland),

Would you like to do it again?

Jim Coate wrote:
> I'll be visiting the Portland, Oregon area at the end of July with my
> fiancé and would love to meet up with some EVers in the area if anyone
> is around for eating and/or show & tell.
>
> We are available Saturday or Sunday July 30th or 31st, sometime in the
> afternoon or evening. As east coasters, it would be great to see the
> stuff west coast legends are made of. Thanks.
>

--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different

--Apple-Mail-119--398880388

Message-ID: <42DD4CD3.7007@...>
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:56:19 -0700
From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: ev@...
Subject: Re: NiCD batteries and metal
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dave Cover wrote:
> If I have plastic battery boxes and I vent them away from the frame,
> do you think I could build the frames for the boxes out of aluminum?
> I intend to have muffin fans venting through some kind of ducts to
> the underside of the car. The fans will run any time the cells are
> charging. I can get 12 volt brushless fans for a reasonable price.

Yes, you can use aluminum, or even steel for your battery boxes. The key
is to keep the electrolyte off it.

One way is to use a plastic liner. It can be a relatively thick plastic
box, or just a sheet or two of thin plastic like a big bag. If you also
want to insulate your batteries, it can be plastic foam (like an ice
chest).

Note that when you ventilate your batteries, you will automatically get
condensation problems. Suppose you charge at night when it is cool, so
the batteries "chill down" to the nightime temperature. During the day,
the air temperature rises, but the batteries are still cool. Warm moist
air hitting the cool batteries will condense water onto them.

Even if there is no electrolyte leakage, this moisture plus whatever
dust and dirt have been brought in by the fans can still form a
conductive coating on the batteries. This allows leakage currents,
ground faults, and corrosion to start. The corrosion products just feed
the process further.

So, you want to maintain large spacings between terminals, and between
terminals and chassis ground. If (for example), there is only 1" between
the positive and negative ends of the series string of batteries and the
grounded metal frame, you *will* have problems! Put some supplemental
electrical insulation in those spaces, to lengthen the over-the-surface
distance that any leakage current would have to flow over.
--
Humanity is acquiring all the right technology for all the wrong
reasons.
	 -- R. Buckminster Fuller
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

--Apple-Mail-119--398880388

Message-ID: <d788735605071910107fecd139@...>
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:10:59 -0400
From: BR Deshpande <bdeshpan@...>
To: ev@...
Subject: Drive Sprocket for ETEK
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Hi all,
  I have an ETEK with 7/8" shaft (3/16" keyway). I currently have a #50
chain. But i am willing to buy a new chain to suit the pitch of the
sprocket.
I am looking for 10-12T drive sprocket. If I have to buy a new chain then I
would also like a same pitch 60-72T rear sprocket that can freewheel.
  If you know where I can get these or if any of the listers happen to have
something similar please let me know. Thanks.

--
"The resistance to a new idea increases as the square of its importance."
-Bertrand Russell.

--Apple-Mail-119--398880388

Message-ID: <027301c58c86$c1f2ac60$110d7140@D4ZR3L51>
From: "Rich Rudman" <rmanzan@...>
To: <ev@...>
Subject: Re: PFC Chargers...Let's hear the Positive Side!
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:56:59 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	 charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Yea that's the point if you have  a poor or coroded feed, you end up with
the same restriction anybody else has.
Not much I can do, if the supply branch circuit is Sub standard.

The big point is you can find a power level where it will work, You have
options, and a variable power level. This enables ALOT of other wise
useless solutions.

Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro


----- Original Message -----
From: "Evan Tuer" <evan.tuer@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 8:21 AM
Subject: Re: PFC Chargers...Let's hear the Positive Side!


> On 7/19/05, David Roden <evpost@...> wrote:
> > On 18 Jul 2005 at 14:16, ProEV wrote:
> >
> > > Finally we settled for the PFC50 running off the 30 amp 110 outlet.
The pack
> > > voltage was about 320 volt. We soon had the car charging at 10 amps.
After
> > > about an hour, the outlet went dead. We chased down a maintenance guy.
He
> > > reset the main breaker but told us that it was almost too hot to
touch. We
> > > ended up charging at 6 amps.
> >
> > Something's not right here.  That's the behaviour of a NON-PFC charger.
> >
> >
> > David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> > EV List Assistant Administrator
>
> Well, 10A*320V = 3.2kW.
>  Let's say the PFC50 charger is 85% efficient at this setting:  3680W.
>  Now let's say the RMS voltage at the socket dropped to 100VAC under
> load: nearly 37A.  Perhaps that's a worst case, but I could believe it
> getting too hot, even with a perfect power factor.
>

--Apple-Mail-119--398880388

Message-ID: <028201c58c87$03e77060$110d7140@D4ZR3L51>
From: "Rich Rudman" <rmanzan@...>
To: <ev@...>
Subject: Re: PFC Chargers...Let's hear the Positive Side!
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:26:35 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	 charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I concur

Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <leeahart@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 10:27 AM
Subject: Re: PFC Chargers...Let's hear the Positive Side!


> ProEV wrote:
> >> we settled for the PFC50 running off the 30 amp 110 outlet.
> >> The pack voltage was about 320 volt. We soon had the car
> >> charging at 10 amps. After about an hour, the outlet went dead.
> >> We chased down a maintenance guy. He reset the main breaker
> >> but told us that it was almost too hot to touch. We ended up
> >> charging at 6 amps.
>
> David Roden wrote:
> > Something's not right here.  That's the behaviour of a NON-PFC charger.
>
> No, it's just what I would expect. He was plugged into a 30amp 120vac
> outlet; that's 3600 watts available. He was charging a 320v pack at 10
> amps; that's 3200 watts output. 3200w/3600w = 88% efficiency, just about
> what I'd expect. So he was maxing out the outlet, and it tripped.
> --
> Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
> citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
> has! -- Margaret Mead
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>

--Apple-Mail-119--398880388

From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <evpost@...>
To: ev@...
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:47:13 -0400
Subject: Re: PFC Chargers...Let's hear the Positive Side!
Message-ID: <42DD0461.4033.1C7804@localhost>

On 19 Jul 2005 at 10:27, Lee Hart wrote:

> He was charging a 320v pack at 10
> amps; that's 3200 watts output.

I read that as 10 amps from the mains.  If indeed it was 10 amps at the EV's
battery, I agree that there's no cause for concern.

--Apple-Mail-119--398880388

Message-ID: <01c501c58c8c$dda5d530$5e01a8c0@Rod>
From: "Roderick Wilde" <roderick@...>
To: <ev@...>
Subject: Re: Drive Sprocket for ETEK
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:08:29 -0700
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original

McMaster Carr has a great selection of 7/8" sprockets. Go to
www.mcmaster-carr.com

Roderick

Roderick Wilde,  President,  EV Parts Inc.
          Your Online EV Superstore
                www.evparts.com
                 1-360-385-7082
Phone: 360-582-1270  Fax: 360-582-1272
         PO Box 834, Carlsborg, WA 98324
108-B Business Park Loop, Sequim, WA 98382


----- Original Message -----
From: "BR Deshpande" <bdeshpan@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 10:10 AM
Subject: Drive Sprocket for ETEK


> Hi all,
> I have an ETEK with 7/8" shaft (3/16" keyway). I currently have a #50
> chain. But i am willing to buy a new chain to suit the pitch of the
> sprocket.
> I am looking for 10-12T drive sprocket. If I have to buy a new chain then
> I
> would also like a same pitch 60-72T rear sprocket that can freewheel.
> If you know where I can get these or if any of the listers happen to have
> something similar please let me know. Thanks.
>
> --
> "The resistance to a new idea increases as the square of its importance."
> -Bertrand Russell.
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.2/52 - Release Date: 7/19/2005
>
>



--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.2/52 - Release Date: 7/19/2005

--Apple-Mail-119--398880388

From: E_vette@...
To: ev@...
Subject: Re: Dymaxion for hybrid RV , Aero, ground effect and Van conversion
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:25:02 +0000
Message-Id:
<071920051825.9228.42DD457D000DFD780000240C2200761438089C0A9D9A0DD29C079D08BC@co\
mcast.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

What type of CD would you expect for a Corvette (C3s/'68-'82)?

-------------- Original message --------------

> Dave wrote:
>
> >Trans Sport. I wonder what the CD of these mutant things
> is?
>
> I remember trying to find that figure on google and came to
> an email list where someone claimed it was .30, comparing
> the Cd of the Lumina van to the Corvette of the time.
>
> There is a lot of room for improvement. I don't think it's
> at all out of the realm of possibility to get that figure
> down to the .25 level.
>

--Apple-Mail-119--398880388

Message-ID: <20050719122322.5vnxys8so4wo8ows@...>
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:23:22 -0700
From: cowtown@...
To: EV Discussion List <ev@...>
Subject: Re: Drive Sprocket for ETEK
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Try the Surplus Center, e.g.: http://tinyurl.com/75w5b

--Apple-Mail-119--398880388

Message-Id: <200507192014.j6JKE0WZ018887@...>
From: "Stu or Jan" <stu@...>
To: <ev@...>
Subject: RE: Drive Sprocket for ETEK & Freewheel
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:13:43 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	 charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Locating  freewheel  suppliers  is my problem as well.

Anyone know of freewheel sources that could be adapted to either chain or
belts?

BoyntonStu


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...] On
Behalf Of BR Deshpande
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 1:11 PM
To: ev@...
Subject: Drive Sprocket for ETEK

Hi all,
  I have an ETEK with 7/8" shaft (3/16" keyway). I currently have a #50
chain. But i am willing to buy a new chain to suit the pitch of the
sprocket.
I am looking for 10-12T drive sprocket. If I have to buy a new chain then I
would also like a same pitch 60-72T rear sprocket that can freewheel.
  If you know where I can get these or if any of the listers happen to have
something similar please let me know. Thanks.

--
"The resistance to a new idea increases as the square of its importance."
-Bertrand Russell.


--Apple-Mail-119--398880388

Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.0.20050719130510.0287b330@...>
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:44:16 -0500
To: ev@...
From: "Andre' Blanchard" <andre@...>
Subject: Re: Drive Sprocket for ETEK
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 12:10 PM 7/19/2005, you wrote:
>Hi all,
>  I have an ETEK with 7/8" shaft (3/16" keyway). I currently have a #50
>chain. But i am willing to buy a new chain to suit the pitch of the
>sprocket.
>I am looking for 10-12T drive sprocket. If I have to buy a new chain then I
>would also like a same pitch 60-72T rear sprocket that can freewheel.
>  If you know where I can get these or if any of the listers happen to have
>something similar please let me know. Thanks.
>
>--
>"The resistance to a new idea increases as the square of its importance."
>-Bertrand Russell.

http://www.mcmaster.com/

Here is a taper lock, smallest they have in #50 is 12 teeth.

Part # 62375K127   Quick-Disconnect Sprocket for #50 Chain, 5/8" Pitch, 12
Teeth, JA Bushing
Part # 6086K114    Quick-Disconnect (QD) Bushing Style JA, 7/8" Bore, 3/16"
X 3/32" Keyway

Or a little less expensive option they have plain bore sprockets in that
size down to 10 teeth.

Part # 6280K873    Steel Finished-Bore Roller Chain Sprocket for #50 Chain,
5/8" Pitch, 10 Teeth, 7/8" Bore

I would pay the money and go for the taper lock and never have to think of
it getting lose.


__________
Andre' B.  Clear Lake, Wi.

--Apple-Mail-119--398880388

Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 21:30:20 -0000
From: "jm_silverman" <jm_silverman@...>
To: Rod Hower <ev@...>
Subject: Contact Info for Tim H
Message-ID: <dbjrdc+ou6q@eGroups.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Rod,

Do you have an email or phone number for Tim H?  I wanted to see if he
had any of the NiCads left for sale.

Thanks,

Joel
85 VW EV

--Apple-Mail-119--398880388

From: "djsharpe" <djsharpe@...>
To: <ev@...>
Subject: RE: Prius
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 08:14:36 +1000
Message-ID: <000601c58caf$412fe330$1163fea9@dqskfeu8pb3uvg>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	 charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

What happens to the Prius if you are descending a long/steep hill & have
charged up the battery pack & it cannot accept anymore charge? David

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...] On
Behalf Of Tim Humphrey
Sent: Wednesday, 20 July 2005 12:45 AM
To: ev@...
Subject: Re: Prius




>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]
On
> Behalf Of John Wayland
> Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 1:04 AM
> To: ev@...
> Subject: Re: Prius
>
> Hello ot All,
>
> Christopher Robison wrote:
>
>> Not that this is really connected with the topic at all, but on the
>> subject of the Prius:  For our meeting on Saturday, the AustinEV crew
>> gathered at the home of one of our members, Andrew Donoho, who
bravely
>> offered up his 2004 Toyota Prius to receive the EV-mode kit from the
>> folks at Coastal Electronic Technologies. ...The result was a Prius
>> that drove in silence to 34mph. The disappointing part was the range.
>> While the battery pack is well-suited to hybrid use, it's sadly too
>> small to be very useful as an EV pack.
>
> Friend Geoff Shepherd has his new '05 model that he equipped with the
Euro
> option of the 'EV' button, also. It does the same thing and makes one
wish
> for a bigger battery pack, or a LiIon type of the same weight, and an
> on-board plug in charger.
>
> See Ya.....John Wayland
>

My wife and I test drove the new Toyota Highlander Hybrid the other day.
The salesman did a pretty good job of trying
to educate us on how hybrid technology works. He was adamant though,
that the hybrids would not get their EPA rated
mileage. I told him about John's stories, but he wasn't hearing it. I
also told him I was upset that I couldn't buy a
Rav4-EV. No comment. He just said that hybrids are the future and Toyota
plans to make them an option in 70% of their
models.

As we were going for the test drive. My wife was driving, I was in the
back seat and he was in the passenger seat
explaining the power flow. For those not familiar, Toyota has a cool
display on the dash that shows graphically which
way the power is being distributed in the system.  We started to descend
a small hill and he remarked, "See the system
is using regenerative braking to capture some energy to re-charge the
battery. This is energy that would be wasted in
a non-hybrid car but is stored in the hybrid to be re-used for
acceleration. In fact I get a lot of customers that ask
where or how often they have to plug the car in, and I have to explain
to them that they don't. The car will take care
of the battery on it's own. Notice just going down this hill the battery
has already filled up two more bars."

At this point I simply commented.. " Yeah but it sure would be nice if I
COULD plug it in, and not need gas."

At which point, my wife echoed enthusiastically, "Yeah! That would be
SWEET!"

He just sat there with a puzzled look on his face.

Nice truck, but I'm not spending 42 grand for it. I'll wait for a
Foxtrot or a Freedom first.



--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"Ignorance is treatable, with a good prognosis. However, if left
untreated, it develops into Arrogance, which is often
fatal. :-)" -- Lee Hart

Get your own FREE evgrin.com email address;
send a request to ryan at evsourcecom

--Apple-Mail-119--398880388

Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:28:59 -0700
From: Nick Austin <nick@...>
To: ev@...
Subject: Re: Prius
Message-ID: <20050719222859.GA20009@...>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline

On Wed, Jul 20, 2005 at 08:14:36AM +1000, djsharpe wrote:
> What happens to the Prius if you are descending a long/steep hill & have
> charged up the battery pack & it cannot accept anymore charge? David

Typical result:

http://www.spankyspangler.com/pics/flames01.JPG

>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...] On
> Behalf Of Tim Humphrey
> Sent: Wednesday, 20 July 2005 12:45 AM
> To: ev@...
> Subject: Re: Prius
>
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]
> On
> > Behalf Of John Wayland
> > Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 1:04 AM
> > To: ev@...
> > Subject: Re: Prius
> >
> > Hello ot All,
> >
> > Christopher Robison wrote:
> >
> >> Not that this is really connected with the topic at all, but on the
> >> subject of the Prius:  For our meeting on Saturday, the AustinEV crew
> >> gathered at the home of one of our members, Andrew Donoho, who
> bravely
> >> offered up his 2004 Toyota Prius to receive the EV-mode kit from the
> >> folks at Coastal Electronic Technologies. ...The result was a Prius
> >> that drove in silence to 34mph. The disappointing part was the range.
> >> While the battery pack is well-suited to hybrid use, it's sadly too
> >> small to be very useful as an EV pack.
> >
> > Friend Geoff Shepherd has his new '05 model that he equipped with the
> Euro
> > option of the 'EV' button, also. It does the same thing and makes one
> wish
> > for a bigger battery pack, or a LiIon type of the same weight, and an
> > on-board plug in charger.
> >
> > See Ya.....John Wayland
> >
>
> My wife and I test drove the new Toyota Highlander Hybrid the other day.
> The salesman did a pretty good job of trying
> to educate us on how hybrid technology works. He was adamant though,
> that the hybrids would not get their EPA rated
> mileage. I told him about John's stories, but he wasn't hearing it. I
> also told him I was upset that I couldn't buy a
> Rav4-EV. No comment. He just said that hybrids are the future and Toyota
> plans to make them an option in 70% of their
> models.
>
> As we were going for the test drive. My wife was driving, I was in the
> back seat and he was in the passenger seat
> explaining the power flow. For those not familiar, Toyota has a cool
> display on the dash that shows graphically which
> way the power is being distributed in the system.  We started to descend
> a small hill and he remarked, "See the system
> is using regenerative braking to capture some energy to re-charge the
> battery. This is energy that would be wasted in
> a non-hybrid car but is stored in the hybrid to be re-used for
> acceleration. In fact I get a lot of customers that ask
> where or how often they have to plug the car in, and I have to explain
> to them that they don't. The car will take care
> of the battery on it's own. Notice just going down this hill the battery
> has already filled up two more bars."
>
> At this point I simply commented.. " Yeah but it sure would be nice if I
> COULD plug it in, and not need gas."
>
> At which point, my wife echoed enthusiastically, "Yeah! That would be
> SWEET!"
>
> He just sat there with a puzzled look on his face.
>
> Nice truck, but I'm not spending 42 grand for it. I'll wait for a
> Foxtrot or a Freedom first.
>
>
>
> --
> Stay Charged!
> Hump
> "Ignorance is treatable, with a good prognosis. However, if left
> untreated, it develops into Arrogance, which is often
> fatal. :-)" -- Lee Hart
>
> Get your own FREE evgrin.com email address;
> send a request to ryan at evsourcecom

--Apple-Mail-119--398880388--

EV Digest 4511

Topics covered in this issue include:

   1) Re: DC/DC
	 by Ryan Stotts <stotts.ryan@...>
   2) Re: Ship or leave - could be a free glider in Sacramento
	 by "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
   3) Re: Fwd: Ship or leave - could be a free glider in Sacramento
	 by "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
   4) NEDRA coverage in Wired rumored
	 by Ken Trough <ken@...>
   5) 12v Flooded battery advice.
	 by "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
   6) Car Simulation
	 by "Don Cameron" <ev@...>
   7) Hacking the Dymaxion idea.
	 by "Stu or Jan" <stu@...>
   8) Re: 12v Flooded battery advice.
	 by Ryan Stotts <stotts.ryan@...>
   9) Re: Hacking the Dymaxion idea.
	 by Ryan Stotts <stotts.ryan@...>
  10) Re: Very simple BMS
	 by Christopher Zach <czach@...>
  11) Re: Ni cad charging,  Re: Very simple BMS
	 by jerry dycus <jerry5335@...>
  12) Re: Very simple BMS
	 by jerry dycus <jerry5335@...>
  13) Re: A few NiMH's on eBay
	 by "George S." <gfs28@...>
  14) Trojan vs US batt,   US batt phone number? Re: 12v Flooded battery advice.
	 by jerry dycus <jerry5335@...>
  15) RE: Hacking the Dymaxion idea.
	 by "Stu or Jan" <stu@...>
  16) Re: NEDRA coverage in Wired rumored
	 by "Roderick Wilde" <roderick@...>
  17) Re: Ni cad charging,  Re: Very simple BMS
	 by Christopher Zach <czach@...>
  18) Re: A few NiMH's on eBay
	 by Christopher Zach <czach@...>
  19) Re: Ni cad charging,  Re: Very simple BMS
	 by Dave Cover <davecover@...>
  20) Re: Very simple BMS
	 by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
  21) Re: Hacking the Dymaxion idea.
	 by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
  22) Re: Ni cad charging,  Re: Very simple BMS
	 by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
  23) Re: Ni cad charging,  Re: Very simple BMS
	 by Christopher Zach <czach@...>
  24) Grandpa likes the EV
	 by Ryan Bohm <ryan@...>
  25) RE: Hacking the Dymaxion idea. RE;  Lee Hart
	 by "Stu or Jan" <stu@...>
  26) Re: Fwd: Ship or leave - Like it? Bring it!!!!
	 by "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
  27) Re: Ni cad charging, Re: Very simple BMS
	 by "damon henry" <damonhenry@...>
  28) Re: Ni cad charging,  Re: Very simple BMS
	 by Rush <Rush@...>
  29) Re: Hacking the Dymaxion idea.
	 by jerry dycus <jerry5335@...>
  30) Re: Ni cad charging, Re: Very simple BMS
	 by Dave Cover <davecover@...>
  31) Re: Ni cad charging,  Re: Very simple BMS
	 by "STEVE CLUNN" <steveclunn@...>

Victor wrote:

>Some newer car's wiring is modified that you
>can't even turn it off. My mom's VW Jetta is that way.

This worked on a '95 S10:

Set the parking brake one or two clicks.  It might turn off the day
time running lights without engaging the rear brakes.  First see if
the lights turn off when the parking brake is pulled, then see how
much it takes to engage the parking brake.

Hard call.  I'd say if you like it ship it.  You won't find a clean glider
back east for cheap.  This is where the cheap cars are.  Everything where
you are going is rusted. If not you pay a high price.   I'd say that the
shipping cost is what you'd pay back there for a beater.   If you don't
believe me look on local sales sites back east where you are going.  You
will be shocked.  A clean California car is worth it's weight in gold back
east.  LR.........
----- Original Message -----
From: "John OConnor" <jpoclistaddress@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 1:23 PM
Subject: Ship or leave - could be a free glider in Sacramento


> Hello All,
>
> I am in need of advice.
>
> Currently in Sacramento Ca, I am smack in the middle
> to converting my Nissan pickup. However I have
> accepted a job in Holyoke Mass. Now I need to decide
> if I want to ship the truck, or leave it here and
> start fresh on the east coast.
>
> So far I have removed all ICE components and
> disassembled the dash, and un-loomed most of the wire
> looms.
>
> Initial quotes indicate a shipping price of about
> $2,000 including the camper cap bed cover, and
> ElectroAuto is in the process of making me an adapter
> plate.
>
> While almost 20 years old the vehicle has only spent 2
> winters in a region that salts roads (Maine) with the
> rest of the time in NC, eastern WA and CA, so other
> than the needing a new paint job it is in good shape.
>
> Leaving out the sentimental factor of having driven
> this truck for close to 20 years, it seems that it
> makes sense to leave it here in CA, if I can get a
> replacement donor in Mass for about $1,000.
>
> Anyone willing to hazard a guess as to the possibility
> of finding a suitable donor in Western/Central Mass?
>
> If I decide not to ship it, there would be a free
> glider available in Sacramento, and I'll be willing
> make a deal on an EA adapter plate!!!
>

Another option is a drive away.  You may still want a good glider back east.
One way is to find an inexpensive running auto.  I found my replacement
Aspire with 92 k on it with a good body.  It cost me 650 dollars.  Have
someone drive it back east(called a driveaway) they pay for the gas and get
the use of a car to drive.  Works out good for everyone.  LR..
----- Original Message -----
From: "John OConnor" <jpoclistaddress@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 3:22 PM
Subject: Re: Fwd: Ship or leave - could be a free glider in Sacramento


> Dave points out what I figured would be a problem -
> rust.
>
> However, even if I can get the vehicle to MA cheaply
> via my relocation package, we will be renting for a
> while and I am somewhat concerned about dealing with a
> non-operational vehicle while renting. If I store it
> until we buy a house then those dollars will begin to
> add up.
>
> Do you Northeast converters "import" your donors, do
> you just have to be patient and wait for the right
> candidate, or just pay more for a relatively rust free
> vehicle?
>
> As for timing, I'll be a New Englander again in
> September.
>
> The more I think about it the more I think there will
> be a free glider available in Sacramento.
>
> John
> --- Dave Cover <davecover@...> wrote:
>> --- John OConnor <jpoclistaddress@...>
>> wrote:
>> > I am in need of advice.
>> > While almost 20 years old the vehicle has only
>> spent 2
>> > winters in a region that salts roads (Maine) with
>> the
>>
>> John, a couple of points;
>>
>> - You may never find $1000 vehicle around here
>> without any rust.
>> - You've done half the work already, and that can be
>> the worst/dirtiest part of the job.
>> - Is your new employer providing any moving expense?
>> - There may not be as many EVers out here, but you
>> won't be alone. I'm about an hour from Holyoke
>> and I'm pretty sure there are others even closer.
>> (Bob R, who's up that way?)
>>
>> When are you going to be out this way?
>>
>> Dave Cover
>

Just an FYI:
Rumor has it that Wired magazine is going to include the Woodburn NEDRA
event in their "events calendar" section along with a photo or two of
vehicles from past Woodburn events.

Hopefully this will mean a better than usual participant/spectator
turnout.

-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)

I know 6v batteries are the best when it comes to flooded but I have a
project to complete using 12v Sweeper batteries.10 batteries for a 120v
system. Space issues.  Trojan, US & Interstate are the options footprint
wise.  Barring price would the Trojans be the ones?  There the choice is the
J150 which is a new model or a 5HSP.  The Interstate is the U 1450 & the US
is the EV 145. They all weigh just under 90 pounds.  Is there a better
option?
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
bassoon@...
415-821-3519

I got sick and tired of trusting my own EV acceleration calculations, so I
coughed up $40 and purchased a simulation program.  I purchased CarTest2000
http://www.cartestsoftware.com/cartest2000/index.html .  I think Patrick did
a great job of this software. It does 1/4 mi, 0-60mph, has 50 different
tracks for timing testing and 100 ice vehicles to race against.  I enter the
torque curves for the motor, and the various transmission ratios and let it
rip.

It even computes fuel economy!   ;-)

I am still working on validating it against actual measured data in the New
Beetle EV.  I will post the results.


For those of you who want to do simulations, plus graphics check out "Racer"
http://www.racer.nl/  it is freeware car simulation, but has awesome game
type graphics as well.  Bit OTT for me, but for others...

Don






Victoria, BC, Canada

See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/

The Dymaxion was a great car.  Let's start with that as a good example of a
role model.



2F/1R with rear wheel steering and almost 20 feet long, aero, highly
maneuverable, and efficient, 1933!

Let's think smaller and lighter and hybrid and:

What if everything beyond the rear steering pivot point was steered?

The motor, the engine, transmissions, etc.

Up front, just the passengers.

Anything goes wrong, disconnect the back, slip in new motor, engine, etc.

Not an articulated body.  Only the innards are articulated.

Instead of thinking light and short, think light and l-o-n-g enough to
accomplish the task.

Advantages: better ride with longer wheelbase, great control with RWS, easy
parking, and some extra safety in crashes.



BoyntonStu

Lawrence Rhodes wrote:

> Barring price would the Trojans be the ones?

As far as flooded's go, I'm under the impression Trojans are the best.

Stu or Jan wrote:

> The Dymaxion was a great car.  Let's start with that as a good example of a
> role model.

What are you planning on doing?


> Let's think smaller and lighter and hybrid and:

Why hybrid?  Doesn't seem very long term considering pollution and
$10/gal gasoline(or even no fuel).

You were around in '73 weren't you?  Did you like it?  Exciting times?
  Wait in any lines for fuel?

> Interesting....
> It looks like voltage detect works very well on the THESE NiCds....
>
> Hummm

Well, I really don't know. Maybe I will take a set of these and just put
them on charge till the dtemp/dt thresholds are tripped. Or until they
saddle somewhere with dv/dt and start to drop before doing the big
skyrocket. Or till they hit 1.8vpc (the fail-safe).

I'll do that on a sealed set of 5 in a weekend or two. The BQ2003
charger is working well and I have upped the N-MOSFets and diodes to
support up to 12amp rates. Coupled with the fan I can run the thing at
full blast for up to 72ah of charging at a shot. By that poit something
should happen, and it will make for a really good graph.

Above 12amp charge rates I think I am going to need a bigger charge
design...

Chris

Hi Dave and All,

--- Dave Cover <davecover@...> wrote:

> --- jerry dycus <jerry5335@...> wrote:
> > > > They need 110% replaced if fully charged
> before discharged.
> > > >
>
> I'm getting there, albeit slowly. I'm trying to
> understand if I can set up a charging process
> that's as close to plug-and-play as possible.


> (Unless there's a magic wire I can hook from my
> Emeter to a PFC.)

     There is though I'm not an expert on that. That is
the best way by far to do it as it counts amphrs which
is the best way to charge Ni cads. Voltage is not a
good indicator on them.
     May be direct on Rich's PFC possibly or to a relay
for any dumb charger using the smarts of the E meter.
But you must be careful hooking anything to an E meter
for isolation or bye bye E meter so a relay is smart.
Needs very low coil current I hear.

>
> So here's a made-up scenario to help me understand.
> Is this more like it?
>
> Let's assume 44AH pack, running them down to 90% DOD
> = 40 AH taken out.
> Charging 110% means 44AH going back in. (Pretend
> these are close enough.)
>
> So I can charge at 10 amps for 3.5 hours and then
> taper down to 1 amp for another 9 hours?

      You could but better to just steady current until
full.

>
> Do they gas less at lower rates?

     Not, maybe more even.

>
> If I only run 38AH out of them and then apply the
> same charge as above, what happens?

      You water more often unless they were too hot to
start with. When hot their full charge voltage lowers
sometimes causing a voltage regulated charger to think
they are not charged and keep on charging,
overheating. And if left on long enough, maybe ruining
them though I have accidently left them on at 1.5C
charge for 10 hrs and they lived though one or 2 lost
cap and were dry, saving the rest. This is why you
need a timer as back up.
       They will take many times more abuse than lead
floodeds and AGM's aren't even in the same country!



> Overkill or battery kill?
>
> Thanks
>
> Dave Cover
>
>




__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:
http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html

Hi Chris and All,

--- Christopher Zach <czach@...> wrote:

> > Interesting....
> > It looks like voltage detect works very well on
> the THESE NiCds....
> >
> > Hummm
>
> Well, I really don't know. Maybe I will take a set
> of these and just put
> them on charge till the dtemp/dt thresholds are
> tripped. Or until they
> saddle somewhere with dv/dt and start to drop before
> doing the big
> skyrocket. Or till they hit 1.8vpc (the fail-safe).

      I'd lower that to 1.7/cell in 5 lots especially
in the beginning  as some are going to be really high
voltage while others are playing catch up. And after
being 1.7v for a short while depending on current,
they will heat up and voltage will drop.
      After a cell gets into 1.65, most all the current
turns to heat so should only let that happen to
equalize other cells for as short a time as nessasary.
      After 5 or so charges they should all hit 1.65
within a couple mimutes of each other if they were
equalized before discharging.


>
> I'll do that on a sealed set of 5 in a weekend or
> two. The BQ2003
> charger is working well and I have upped the
> N-MOSFets and diodes to
> support up to 12amp rates. Coupled with the fan I
> can run the thing at
> full blast for up to 72ah of charging at a shot. By
> that point something
> should happen, and it will make for a really good
> graph.

      You should do each cell's voltage by hand if
nessasary for the 95% charge and more to see how each
cells voltages change ffirst up then down.
      Put you temp probe in the center as they will be
the hottest ones.
      And this should be on cells that have had at
least 5 charges on them before real testing or your
results won't match cells with more charges.
      Treat these cells right and they will be good for
20-30 or more yrs like mine have been.
                  HTH's,
                     Jerry Dycus

>
> Above 12amp charge rates I think I am going to need
> a bigger charge
> design...
>
> Chris
>
>




____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

At 06:03 PM 7/17/2005 -0400, you wrote:

>I wonder where they are coming from. A truck filled with 25 of these (300
>volt base system) would have 100 mile range easily.
>
>Mmmmm..... No, stick with the NiCDs for now CZ :-)
>
>Chris

They are coming from crushed EV1's in GM's Mesa Arizona proving grounds.

George S.

Hi Ryan, Lawrence and All,

--- Ryan Stotts <stotts.ryan@...> wrote:

> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
>
> > Barring price would the Trojans be the ones?
>
> As far as flooded's go, I'm under the impression
> Trojans are the best.

       They and US batt are about the same and many
were designed by the same person, Narzai? Now with US
batt.
       Anyone have his phone number or e mail, real
name, as I need to talk to him?
      US batt is much friendlier to EV'ers too vs
Trojan who doesn't seem to care.
                  HTH's,
                    Jerry Dycus



>
>




__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250

Hybrid allows one to get home after discharge.  I am talking 75 MPG here.

I was around in '73.  I had a Fiat 850.

I am planning my next project.  At the moment in my mind.  Putting together
the best ideas from the past and the present.

No fuel = no EV.

BoyntonStu.

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...] On
Behalf Of Ryan Stotts
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 9:23 PM
To: ev@...
Subject: Re: Hacking the Dymaxion idea.

Stu or Jan wrote:

> The Dymaxion was a great car.  Let's start with that as a good example of
a
> role model.

What are you planning on doing?


> Let's think smaller and lighter and hybrid and:

Why hybrid?  Doesn't seem very long term considering pollution and
$10/gal gasoline(or even no fuel).

You were around in '73 weren't you?  Did you like it?  Exciting times?
  Wait in any lines for fuel?

This is not a rumor but the truth. While I was en route back from Arizona I
received an email from Pennie Rossini from Wired and I responded and filled
her in. Aren't motels with DSL and better great now days. It is so much fun
living in the future. It cracks me up sometimes. Thanks Ken for bringing it
up. Today is my first day back in the office.

Roderick Wilde
NEDRA President

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Trough" <ken@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 5:25 PM
Subject: NEDRA coverage in Wired rumored


> Just an FYI:
> Rumor has it that Wired magazine is going to include the Woodburn NEDRA
> event in their "events calendar" section along with a photo or two of
> vehicles from past Woodburn events.
>
> Hopefully this will mean a better than usual participant/spectator
> turnout.
>
> -Ken Trough
> Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
> http://visforvoltage.com
> AIM - ktrough
> FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.0/50 - Release Date: 7/16/2005
>
>



--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.0/50 - Release Date: 7/16/2005

jerry dycus wrote:

>        Hi Dave and All,
>
> --- Dave Cover <davecover@...> wrote:
>
>
>>--- jerry dycus <jerry5335@...> wrote:
>>
>>>>>They need 110% replaced if fully charged
>>
>>before discharged.
>>
>>I'm getting there, albeit slowly. I'm trying to
>>understand if I can set up a charging process
>>that's as close to plug-and-play as possible.
>
>
>
>>(Unless there's a magic wire I can hook from my
>>Emeter to a PFC.)

The way I did it in playing around was to take the output of the
E-meter, run it into a BASIC/STAMP computer and have it watch the lines
coming in one per second. When it saw the ah count go positive it knew
the pack had hit equal and dropped the line that held the transistor/red
relay open for the charger.

As a bonus you don't have to worry about calculating that 110% thing;
just set the E-meter with a 90% CEF. When the green light flashes (a 5
or something in one of those fields) you have 110% charge.

Bit clunky, but it can be done.

Chris

> They are coming from crushed EV1's in GM's Mesa Arizona proving grounds.

Makes sense, and at $50 a pop they are a hell of a steal.

I've been chatting with the guy. Apparently people are deluging him with
orders right now so he's gone from being friendly to quite direct.
Anyone know how to get a shipper for picking a pallet up? Anyone in DC
want to go in on a bunch?

Yes, I know: I need these like I need a hole in my head. But I have this
really great battery charger for NiCD/NiMH..........

Chris

--- Christopher Zach <czach@...> wrote:
>
> The way I did it in playing around was to take the output of the
> E-meter, run it into a BASIC/STAMP computer and have it watch the lines
> coming in one per second. When it saw the ah count go positive it knew
> the pack had hit equal and dropped the line that held the transistor/red
> relay open for the charger.
>
> As a bonus you don't have to worry about calculating that 110% thing;
> just set the E-meter with a 90% CEF. When the green light flashes (a 5
> or something in one of those fields) you have 110% charge.
>
Being a programming geek by profession, I'd love to try my hand at the BASIC
STAMP route. Reading
about the things people have been able to do with them sounds like fun. Can you
give me some
details about your setup and maybe a suggestion for a good beginners kit.
Unfortunately my eMeter
does not have the serial output so I'm going to keep my eyes open for one that
does. Anyone have
one to trade for a regular Link 10 (brand new) without output?

Dave Cover

Christopher Zach wrote:
> So far these flooded Safts are kind of weird. I've watched them charge
> and discharge using the E-meter and dumping the results every second to
> a laptop. With Excel and pivot table it looks like they come up to 1.3
> volts fast, then 1.4 volts, then sit at 1.40-1.49 volts for the bulk
> charge. About the time the AH counter hits zero they start climbing to
> 1.5 volts, then thru 1.6 volts very quickly.

This behavior isn't weird; it's normal for flooded nicads.

If you want to use voltage for your full-charge indicator, charge at a
constant current and look for the voltage to peak, and then start to
fall. Note that the voltage drop is small, and may be hidden if your
charging current is too high, or the cells are too hot, or you have so
many cells in series that the peak is spread out too much.

Counting amphours is a more reliable indicator for nicads. Put back 110%
of the charge removed, and you will be very close to correct.
--
The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.
	 -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

Stu or Jan wrote:
> The Dymaxion was a great car.

It was an absolutely incredible car... in 1933. But a lot of advances
have been made since then.

> Let's start with that as a good example of a role model.

I think what was important about the Dymaxion is *how* it was invented.
Buckminster Fuller basically hired the very best minds, put them in a
room, and told them to start with a blank sheet of paper and design the
very best car possible. Don't limit yourself to what's been done before,
or how people think it "should" be done.

As a result, the Dymaxion borrowed heavily from aircraft and boat
designs, which were far more advanced than automobiles in the 1930s.

If you did the same thing today, using the extra knowledge and
technology we have no, there's no telling what it would lead to!
--
The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.
	 -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

Dave Cover wrote:
> I'm getting there, albeit slowly. I'm trying to understand if I
> can set up a charging process that's as close to plug-and-play
> as possible.

Yes. It's pretty easy to automate nicad charging, because the
consequences of overcharging are so benign.

> (Unless there's a magic wire I can hook from my Emeter to a PFC.)

There is, sort of. Get an E-meter with the alarm outputs. Use them to
operate a relay. Program the E-meter with a 90% CEF (so "full" is 110%
more amphours than you took out). Program the E-meter alarm to turn off
at 100% SOC. Use the relay's contacts to turn off the charger.

> Let's assume 44AH pack, running them down to 90% DOD = 40 AH taken
> out. Charging 110% means 44AH going back in. (Pretend these are
> close enough.)

Yes, that's close enough.

> So I can charge at 10 amps for 3.5 hours and then taper down to
> 1 amp for another 9 hours?

Yes. That's 44ah.

> Do they gas less at lower rates?

Yes, but there's a catch.

Lithiums don't gas at all, so essentially 100% of the charger current
goes into charging. Any excess amphours makes heat or destroys
something.

Lead-acids gas over 2.35v/cell (14.1v for a 12v battery). Below this,
essentially 100% of the charger current goes into charging. Over this,
and some percentage goes into heating and gassing. But luckily, "fully
charged" is about 2.25v/cell (13.5v for a 12v battery). Therefore, you
can apply a voltage that is below the gassing point, but above the
full-charge point. So you can fully charge them without gassing. The
drawback is that it takes DAYS to reach full charge if you limit the
voltage like this.

Nicads don't reach "full" until you reach 1.54v/cell. But they start
gassing at 1.42v/cell. Therefore, it is impossible to reach full charge
without gassing. If you try to charge nicads at too low a voltage or too
low a current, you only get up to about 50-75% SOC, and then the
remaining charging current is just wasted in heating and gassing.

For the best results, you therefore need to put in the last 25% or so of
the charging current relatively quickly, so you can turn off the charger
and let the voltage fall back below the gassing point. Not too fast, or
you get excessive gassing and heating. Not too slowly, or you stop
charging (producing small amounts of heat and gas, but no charging).
--
The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.
	 -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

> Being a programming geek by profession, I'd love to try my hand at the BASIC
STAMP route. Reading
> about the things people have been able to do with them sounds like fun. Can
you give me some
> details about your setup and maybe a suggestion for a good beginners kit.
Unfortunately my eMeter
> does not have the serial output so I'm going to keep my eyes open for one that
does. Anyone have
> one to trade for a regular Link 10 (brand new) without output?

Sure, Radio shack sells a Parallax Basic Stamp kit for like $70 or so.
Has a book, CD, great breadboard, the works.

Chris


>
> Dave Cover
>

Hi Everyone,

I just got back from a trip (funeral :( ) to Idaho about 200 miles from
home.  I was talking with my ~80 year old grandpa who is usually pretty
quiet.  He kept asking questions about the 200sx.  It's fun to see the
level of interest people take in the electric car.  He really surprised
me when he asked about "the car company that made an electric that would
go ~175 miles".  I think he was talking about the EV1.

So everyone that is contemplating a conversion, LET'S GET THEM ROLLING!
People need to see these awesome EV's on the road - and have them become
the topic of conversation at work and family events :)

As a quick side note, the EV Source website was down for the day.  I
don't know why my web servers have to take vacation only when I do.
Things are back up now.

-Ryan
--
- EV Source -
Zillas, PFC Chargers, and Netgain WarP motors at great prices!
E-mail: mailto:ryan@...
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781

Lee,

You have stated exactly what I was attempting to say.

I wonder what Bucky would come up with today?

What design items are on your wish list?

BoyntonStu

If you did the same thing today, using the extra knowledge and
technology we have no, there's no telling what it would lead to!
--
The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.
	 -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
To: "John OConnor" <jpoclistaddress@...>; <ev@...>
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 8:23 PM
Subject: Re: Fwd: Ship or leave - could be a free glider in Sacramento


> Another option is a drive away.  You may still want a good glider back
east.
> One way is to find an inexpensive running auto.  I found my replacement
> Aspire with 92 k on it with a good body.  It cost me 650 dollars.  Have
> someone drive it back east(called a driveaway) they pay for the gas and
get
> the use of a car to drive.  Works out good for everyone.  LR..
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John OConnor" <jpoclistaddress@...>
> To: <ev@...>
> Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 3:22 PM
> Subject: Re: Fwd: Ship or leave - could be a free glider in Sacramento
>
>
> > Dave points out what I figured would be a problem -
> > rust.
> >
> > However, even if I can get the vehicle to MA cheaply
> > via my relocation package, we will be renting for a
> > while and I am somewhat concerned about dealing with a
> > non-operational vehicle while renting. If I store it
> > until we buy a house then those dollars will begin to
> > add up.
> >
          Hi John;

         If ya like the truck, hang on to it, get your new Co. to ship it
east. I could keep it in CT ,Can't promise INDOOR storage, rite now, though.
til ya get settled in. The problem we have here in the East is terminal
RUST! EVery car delivered in the East comes with Rust-O-Matic! Right from
the factory! Heres a good biz plan I think. Guy in the East wants an older
glider. Guy in West takes order, color car make and all that. Western guy
buys car, arranges to ship it a sort of space available with an auto
transport outfit, getting a sorta "standby" price. Would be nice if car were
de ICEd breforehand, but maybe the transport guyz want the car to run, EVen
just bealy? So to make loading easier? I know the West is a great sourse of
older cars. We guyz marvel at the "Portland Antique Daily Driver " show in
our visits to PDX. Chevy Corvair pickups, old AMC stuff just driving around
out there. I saw a grounded Chevy bus a 49! Guy was walking over to a parts
store for a fuel pump! Came from Calif! A camper bus, EVen older than my
54!Lottsa V-dubs! All flavors.

     I like the older stuff for it's simplicity in taking apart or modifying,
price is right out west. I saw a rather nice 82 Jetta in a lot off Glisen
St, in PDX,asked about it 2 years ago, it was STILL there the next year, He
didn't have the paperwork or he woulda givin it to me, guy said.. But I
guess he got tired of it on his lot, and got rid of it, as it was gone LAST
year!
> > Do you Northeast converters "import" your donors, do
> > you just have to be patient and wait for the right
> > candidate, or just pay more for a relatively rust free
> > vehicle?
> >  After the above I think it would be a good idea to Import your doners

> > As for timing, I'll be a New Englander again in
> > September.

         Yeah, Me too, back from Woodburn. The temptation is to buy a clean
doner in Or and strip it out for lite towing back east. My kid just bought a
California car on E bay, a 63 Falcon, BEAUTIFUL shape, for 850bux I think he
sed?
> >
> > The more I think about it the more I think there will
> > be a free glider available in Sacramento.
> >
> > John
> > --- Dave Cover <davecover@...> wrote:
> >> --- John OConnor <jpoclistaddress@...>
> >> wrote:
> >> > I am in need of advice.
> >> > While almost 20 years old the vehicle has only
> >> spent 2
> >> > winters in a region that salts roads (Maine) with
> >> the
> >>
> >> John, a couple of points;
> >>
> >> - You may never find $1000 vehicle around here
> >> without any rust.

             For SURE!
> >> - You've done half the work already, and that can be
> >> the worst/dirtiest part of the job.
> >> - Is your new employer providing any moving expense?
> >> - There may not be as many EVers out here, but you
> >> won't be alone. I'm about an hour from Holyoke
> >> and I'm pretty sure there are others even closer.

            Holyoke? Right in the Pioneer Valley Chapter of the EAA, they are
in Amheast, I think? We have ya covered as we have a chapter in Worcester,
as well as a few of us in CT
> >>
  (Bob R, who's up that way?)
> >>A few of us for now, hoping to bring more guyz into the fold.
> >> When are you going to be out this way?
> >>
> >> Dave Cover
> >
>        Seeya

           Bob

Keep an eye on listings by pbasic1 on ebay.  They are are contractor that is
selling all of Parallax's returns as refurbished.  I got a great deal on a
BOE bot from them and when it was missing some parts I just had to contact
Parallax support and they shipped me out the missing pieces, so you can bid
with confidence.  Right now they have 56 of the kits Chris is talking about
currently listed at $24.99.  There is still 3 days left on the auction, but
only 12 of the kits spoken for so far, so you probably wouldn't have to pay
much if anymore than the $24.99 price.  This is a fun kit and includes a BS2
embedded in their Homework board.  The BS2 itself usually runs about $50.

damon

>From: Dave Cover <davecover@...>
>Reply-To: ev@...
>To: EVList <ev@...>
>Subject: Re: Ni cad charging,  Re: Very simple BMS
>Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 20:31:47 -0700 (PDT)
>
>--- Christopher Zach <czach@...> wrote:
> >
> > The way I did it in playing around was to take the output of the
> > E-meter, run it into a BASIC/STAMP computer and have it watch the lines
> > coming in one per second. When it saw the ah count go positive it knew
> > the pack had hit equal and dropped the line that held the transistor/red
> > relay open for the charger.
> >
> > As a bonus you don't have to worry about calculating that 110% thing;
> > just set the E-meter with a 90% CEF. When the green light flashes (a 5
> > or something in one of those fields) you have 110% charge.
> >
>Being a programming geek by profession, I'd love to try my hand at the
>BASIC STAMP route. Reading
>about the things people have been able to do with them sounds like fun. Can
>you give me some
>details about your setup and maybe a suggestion for a good beginners kit.
>Unfortunately my eMeter
>does not have the serial output so I'm going to keep my eyes open for one
>that does. Anyone have
>one to trade for a regular Link 10 (brand new) without output?
>
>Dave Cover
>

Chris,

I have a serial emeter and will be using a basic/stamp chip in a charger, I
would love to be able to use it also for reading when the charging is done.
Could you send me the programming that you did for the stamp? I'm real new to
the stamp programming so any help would be helpful. I've gotten the parallax
board of education kit and am reading the manual

Thanks

Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org


----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Zach" <czach@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 7:59 PM
Subject: Re: Ni cad charging, Re: Very simple BMS


>
> The way I did it in playing around was to take the output of the
> E-meter, run it into a BASIC/STAMP computer and have it watch the lines
> coming in one per second. When it saw the ah count go positive it knew
> the pack had hit equal and dropped the line that held the transistor/red
> relay open for the charger.
>
> As a bonus you don't have to worry about calculating that 110% thing;
> just set the E-meter with a 90% CEF. When the green light flashes (a 5
> or something in one of those fields) you have 110% charge.
>
> Bit clunky, but it can be done.
>
> Chris
>

Hi Lee, Stu and All,

--- Lee Hart <leeahart@...> wrote:

> Stu or Jan wrote:
> > The Dymaxion was a great car.
>
> It was an absolutely incredible car... in 1933. But
> a lot of advances
> have been made since then.
>
> > Let's start with that as a good example of a role
> model.
>
> I think what was important about the Dymaxion is
> *how* it was invented.
> Buckminster Fuller basically hired the very best
> minds, put them in a

      Thank you for bring this up as I was about to.
      The Dymaxion was designed by Starling? Burgess.
The top yacht, America's Cup racers and many other
things, designer of the day who headed the team.
      While it was Bucky's car, idea, it was not his
design.


> room, and told them to start with a blank sheet of
> paper and design the
> very best car possible. Don't limit yourself to
> what's been done before,
> or how people think it "should" be done.

    Yes, it was such a refreshing approach and one we
really need to do today for our morbid auto industry.
    They need to completely rethink both the
body/chassis and drive train, power source which would
naturally lead them to EV drive kicking and screaming.
But it must be done or Detroit auto's will die as they
have been shrinking for yrs and will shrink into
oblivion if they don't change their ways.

>
> As a result, the Dymaxion borrowed heavily from
> aircraft and boat
> designs, which were far more advanced than
> automobiles in the 1930s.
>
> If you did the same thing today, using the extra
> knowledge and
> technology we have no, there's no telling what it
> would lead to!

      I'm trying by using the same boat, aircraft tech
of today to make better transportation so able to take
best advantage of EV drives to cut costs in materials
and labor while greatly increasing mileage,
performance/$
      Today I go to see how the molds are coming along,
hopefully good news. Also buying the final material
for the composite chassis mold.
     I can't believe in this day and age Detroit hasn't
went much farter into the great advantages of
composite auto construction like aircraft are doing
now and boats have done for 1/2 a century!!
      I could see if it cost more but it doesn't!! My
costing has come out much less than Detroit doing them
in metal and I can make good profits on 10's of EV's
where Detroit has to build 100,000 cars/yr just to
break even!!
      Stu, stick to more normal steering of the frnot
wheels and you will be better off. While rear steering
works fair to good at low speeds, to say good at high
speeds is stretching it a bit.
      To both drive and steer a rear wheel is asking
for trouble. Pick one or 2 new things at a time to
experiment with and then use them before going on to
new ones or failure is the probable result.
      It's time for you to stop talking and pick
something and do it. Build a rear steerer and find out
just how they work instead of talking it to death for
instance.
      While my stuff looks radical, I have experience
in most of it before so chance is much less.
      And build cheap, quick, and dirty to test things
out, learn before putting too much work into things
that will most certainly fail. I usually build 3,
first very quick and dirty to test, then one to put
what I've learn into pratice then a third which takes
all the lessons and put them into a great, well built
product.
      That's why I like Wood/epoxy as one can be built
in a couple days very cheaply and easy to modify.
                    HTH's,
                      Jerry Dycus


> --
> The two most common elements in the universe are
> hydrogen and stupidity.
>  -- Harlan Ellison
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>




____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

Damon

Thanks for the info on the pbasic1 kits on eBay, I just put my bid in for one.
Can't wait!

Dave Cover

. Unfortunately my eMeter
> does not have the serial output so I'm going to keep my eyes open for one
> that does. Anyone have
> one to trade for a regular Link 10 (brand new) without output?

What kind of trade would you like to do ? Jon from www.grassrootsev.com has
some old stock , still in the box of the older e-meter with the rs232 port
and low batt alarm, ev software and a cd with a 500a shunt , 500v pre scaler
for xantrex  all for $255 .
steve clunn

> Dave Cover
>
>

EV Digest 4510

Topics covered in this issue include:

   1) Re: Smart Charger
	 by Victor Tikhonov <vtikhono@...>
   2) Re: Very simple BMS
	 by "Philippe Borges" <philippe.borges@...>
   3) Re: Smart Charger
	 by Victor Tikhonov <vtikhono@...>
   4) Re: Very simple BMS
	 by Victor Tikhonov <vtikhono@...>
   5) Re: very simple BMS
	 by Jeff Shanab <jshanab@...>
   6) Re: Prius
	 by "Paul G." <paul-g@...>
   7) Re: Very simple BMS
	 by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
   8) Re: DC/DC
	 by Nick Viera <jeepev@...>
   9) Re: Smart Charger
	 by "Sharon Hoopes" <slh4@...>
  10) Re: DC/DC
	 by Nick Viera <jeepev@...>
  11) Re: Very simple BMS
	 by "Rich Rudman" <rmanzan@...>
  12) Re: Very simple BMS ??
	 by "Rich Rudman" <rmanzan@...>
  13) Re: Very simple BMS
	 by Christopher Zach <czach@...>
  14) Re: Very simple BMS ??
	 by Christopher Zach <czach@...>
  15) Re: DC/DC
	 by Ryan Stotts <stotts.ryan@...>
  16) Re: PFC Chargers...Let's hear the Positive Side!
	 by "ProEV" <Promo@...>
  17) Re: DC/DC
	 by Victor Tikhonov <vtikhono@...>
  18) Ni cad charging,  Re: Very simple BMS
	 by jerry dycus <jerry5335@...>
  19) Re: Ni cad charging,  Re: Very simple BMS
	 by Dave Cover <davecover@...>
  20) Re: Ni cad charging, Re: Very simple BMS
	 by "damon henry" <damonhenry@...>
  21) Re: Ni cad charging,  Re: Very simple BMS
	 by jerry dycus <jerry5335@...>
  22) Ship or leave - could be a free glider in Sacramento
	 by John OConnor <jpoclistaddress@...>
  23) Re: Very simple BMS
	 by "Rich Rudman" <rmanzan@...>
  24) Re: Ni cad charging,  Re: Very simple BMS
	 by Dave Cover <davecover@...>
  25) Fwd: Ship or leave - could be a free glider in Sacramento
	 by Dave Cover <davecover@...>
  26) RE: PFC Chargers...Let's hear the Positive Side!
	 by "Roger Stockton" <rstockton@...>
  27) Re: Fwd: Ship or leave - could be a free glider in Sacramento
	 by John OConnor <jpoclistaddress@...>

I was going to ask the same - define how smart is smart,
and also the type of the battery, is it lead acid?

Victor

Rich Rudman wrote:
> Define smart charger.....
>
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sharon Hoopes" <slh4@...>
> To: <ev@...>
> Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 12:02 PM
> Subject: Smart Charger
>
>
>
>>Looking for:
>>132 volt
>>30 amp output
>>240 input AC
>>Smart Charger
>>
>>
>>Bill & Sharon Hoopes
>>slh4@...
>>
>>

--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different

http://electrofly.free.fr/articles.php?lng=fr&pg=61

adjust resistor for your use et voilà

Philippe

Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
  http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php


----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Zach" <czach@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 1:07 AM
Subject: Very simple BMS


> Before I blow up a few zeners, is it possible to build a rock simple
> battery clamper (7.5 volt cutoff) with just a 7.5 volt zener and an
> appropriate size resistor?
>
> Chris
>

If this is all "smarts" you need, a $10 timer
from home depot cuttin off mains power in predefined
time will make any charger "smart".

If you use lead bateries, Rich's chargers are
your best choice. Ask for isolation option if this is
important for you, don't underestimate this importance!.

Victor

Sharon Hoopes wrote:
> mainly "Turns its self off" do you have one.???
>
> Bill & Sharon Hoopes
> slh4@...
>
>
>
>
>>[Original Message]
>>From: Rich Rudman <rmanzan@...>
>>To: <ev@...>
>>Date: 7/17/2005 8:10:00 PM
>>Subject: Re: Smart Charger
>>
>>Define smart charger.....
>>
>>Rich Rudman
>>Manzanita Micro
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Sharon Hoopes" <slh4@...>
>>To: <ev@...>
>>Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 12:02 PM
>>Subject: Smart Charger
>>
>>
>>
>>>Looking for:
>>>132 volt
>>>30 amp output
>>>240 input AC
>>>Smart Charger
>>>
>>>
>>>Bill & Sharon Hoopes
>>>slh4@...
>>>
>>>

--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different

Yes, this is a copy of what I have here for my LiIons:

http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/images/clamper.jpg

but this is not what Chris is asking about.
He wants to use a zener to sharply load a battery
to a resistor, and I said resistive type of clamper's
load (linear) won't work.

Victor


Philippe Borges wrote:
> http://electrofly.free.fr/articles.php?lng=fr&pg=61
>
> adjust resistor for your use et voilà
>
> Philippe
>

>
>>Before I blow up a few zeners, is it possible to build a rock simple
>>battery clamper (7.5 volt cutoff) with just a 7.5 volt zener and an
>>appropriate size resistor?
>>
>>Chris
>>

--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different

Either I stumbled accross this or maybe Lee refered me to this but...


http://users.rsise.anu.edu.au/~luke/xr4000batbal.html

I haven't tried it yet but it seems simple and adjustable. However, his
voltage readings are a little bit of a concern, right?

On Jul 17, 2005, at 5:20 PM, djsharpe wrote:

> I am considering getting a  2001 Prius for my daughter. Could a Prius
> owner pl advise suitable web site to look at issues & give general
> advice.

I recommend Graham's site about his Prius. He talks about his ownership
experience as well as accessories he has added plus very readable
information about how the Prius works.
<http://home.earthlink.net/~graham1/MyToyotaPrius/PriusFrames.htm>

My wife drives a 2002 Prius. Real world mileage is about 45mpg, not bad
for a car the size of a Honda Civic with an automatic. Sometimes I get
to drive it :-)

Paul "neon" G.

Dave Cover wrote:
> Do you think I could make this work with Nicads, I believe their
> top end is 1.5 volts per cell.

The situation is very different between battery types.

Lithium-based cells *require* that you limit the voltage during
charging. You need to limit the voltage individually on *every cell*.

Lead-acids are more forgiving. Overvoltage during charging causes no
immediate problems, but in the long run increases water usage and
shortens life. Small amounts of overvoltage are used to equalize the
charge differences between cells.

Nicads basically don't care about the voltage during charging. You just
monitor the voltage as an indication of when they reach "full".
Overcharging just increases heating and water loss, which only affect
life if allowed to go to extremes.

With nicads, individual cell monitoring or limiting isn't normally
needed. At most, you may want to monitor the voltage at each cell, just
for diagnostic purposes (to spot a cell that has failed, or to tell you
when to stop discharging or charging).

We discussed a simple circuit to do this recently on John Lussmyer's BMS
list. I proposed a circuit with an optocoupler and resistor across each
cell. The LED inside the optocoupler has a turn-on threshold of about
1v, so the output side is completely off if the cell goes under 1v. By
sizing the resistor in series with the LED, you can determine the output
current when the cell reaches 1.5v (nominally "full").  Wire all the
output sides of the optocouplers in series, and a) it goes to zero
current when the first cell goes under 1.0v, and b) it goes over your
defined current when the last cell reaches 1.5v.
--
The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.
	 -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

Hi,

Ryan Stotts wrote:
> Do you do much night driving?  What watt headlights do you currently
> have?  Have you considered installing maybe 60 watt or 40 watt lights?

I don't do much night driving. Even so, the current headlights are IMO
too dim as is... if I remember correctly they are 55/65 watt lamps.

>  Maybe some LED headlights for "city driving" and be able to switch
> from those to the drainers if more light is needed..

I'm not convinced that LEDs would be good for headlight replacement.
Seems to me that appropriately sized emitters would also consume quite a
bit of power, not to mention being pretty expensive. However, I have
converted most of the other exterior lighting to LEDs already...

> What gauge wire do you have the MR2 pump hooked up with?  Or would
> that not make any difference what so ever as to how much it draws?

10 AWG and it, though a relay and circuit breaker, is wired straight to
the main 12-volt distribution studs located next to the 12-volt battery.
    So all the wiring from the battery to the P/S pump is new.

> Have you thought about putting it on a switch and turning it off when
> you are going straight(down the highway, long straight road, etc.)?

Yes, but I've yet to come up with a good way to implement an automatic
switching method.... and a manual switch in the dash doesn't seem like a
good solution to me. Currently I have it wired so it only comes on when
my foot is on the accelerator (using the potbox micro switch). This is
so it is not wasting power while I'm stopped at traffic lights, and so I
don't have to *hear* it whining all the time. Though, for short trips I
   usually just unplug the pump all together...

> Can your DC/DC be modified to put out a little more?

I doubt it...

Thanks,
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------

YES. SIR.

Bill & Sharon Hoopes
slh4@...



> [Original Message]
> From: Victor Tikhonov <vtikhono@...>
> To: <ev@...>
> Date: 7/18/2005 9:51:19 AM
> Subject: Re: Smart Charger
>
> I was going to ask the same - define how smart is smart,
> and also the type of the battery, is it lead acid?
>
> Victor
>
> Rich Rudman wrote:
> > Define smart charger.....
> >
> > Rich Rudman
> > Manzanita Micro
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Sharon Hoopes" <slh4@...>
> > To: <ev@...>
> > Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 12:02 PM
> > Subject: Smart Charger
> >
> >
> >
> >>Looking for:
> >>132 volt
> >>30 amp output
> >>240 input AC
> >>Smart Charger
> >>
> >>
> >>Bill & Sharon Hoopes
> >>slh4@...
> >>
> >>
>
> --
> Victor
> '91 ACRX - something different

Hi,

Lee Hart wrote:
> 14.5v at the battery? That's actually a bit too high, and will
> shorten battery life. Or 14.5v somewhere else in the system. In most
> cars, there is a significant voltage drop between the alternator and
> the battery.

You're right... At the battery the voltage is about 13.8 volts at idle.
At higher engine speeds battery voltage comes up into the 14 volt range.

> Again, is this 14v to 13.2v change measured at the battery, or
> somewhere else? It will help us to figure out where the problem is.

This was measured at the mains fuses for the 12-volt system, where most
all of the loads (and wiring to the secondary fuse-block) connects...
and it is almost always less than 14 volts (usually between 13.6-13.2
--with the P/S pump off)

> Is the DC/DC converter's current capability too small?

Yes... at least when I try to run the P/S pump and/or a lot of the
accessories.

> Or is it set for too low a voltage?

I don't know. I jumpered the two-position terminal strip on the Todd
which I thought is supposed to make it output ~14.4 volts. Though, I
don't think I've ever seen this unit output more than 14 volts (even
that only occurs at really light loads).

> Or is its voltage regulation poor,

Definitely. The Todd DC/DC is terrible at holding a steady voltage, at
least in comparison to my DCP unit before it zorched. The Todd is also
much slower at keeping up with the load (i.e. if you suddenly turn on a
load everything browns out for a second until the Todd catches up; if
you turn off a load the voltage spikes up until the Todd catches up.
This is especially true when switching larger loads on and off)

Are the excess voltage drops in the wiring?

Not as far as I can tell. All the 12-volt mains wiring in my Jeep is new
wiring I installed during the conversion. That means all wiring from the
battery to the DC/DC to the main fuse block/ breakers is new. I had
drawn a nice schematic of all of this somewhere, but can't find the file
on my computer (not good!), If I find it while searching through my
backup CDs I'll get it online...

> Is your Jeep's electric power steering pump something you added? If
> so, it could represent a substantial new 12v load that hasn't been
> accounted for in the stock 12v wiring, or in your sizing of the DC/DC
> converter.

Yes, it's an addition. But the main wiring in the Jeep is new and (I
believe) sized properly. Yes, this extra large load was considered when
I was looking for a DC/DC converter. But once again, the options for a
good DC/DC converter in my voltage range seem to be very few. I mean,
what I really need/want is a good 1kW DC/DC (70 amps @ 14 volts). This
would very adequately cover all my 12-volt system needs.

> If you replace a 60amp alternator with an undersized 30amp DC/DC,
> then yes; you will have a weaker system with more voltage sag.

Exactly what I ended up doing... the Jeep's stock Alternator was 65 amps
and my DCP unit was/ my Todd unit is 30 amps. Again, I didn't exactly
want it to be this way, but didn't have many options as far as DC/DC
converters go.

> If you run this DC/DC only while driving, the 12v battery isn't going to get
> fully charged, and will fail sooner. So, with such a system, you need
> to run the DC/DC or a separate 12v charger when parked.

Right. A DC/DC that can tolerate your pack's charging voltage is a
really good thing so you can leave it on all the time.

P.S. I really didn't mean to continue to lament about my DC/DC situation
in this thread... so sorry if I've strayed it from the original topic.
My original purpose for posting in this thread was to make the point to
the original poster that you'll be better off if you can leave the DC/DC
converter running at all times...  (though I do appreciate your
responses Lee, Ryan, and all)

Thanks,
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------

Same way??/ no it's just a power source, But the Regs can control the
charger....to save thier Butt... and this becomes a different kind of charge
once the regs get into the action.

NiCADs  NEED a amp counter .... or some way to detect voltage peaking and
the start of thermal runaway.

Looking across a cell at voltage, is not going to tell you much unless you
know what you took out, how much has been put back in and weather the Cell
temp is steady or climbing .

Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Cover" <davecover@...>
To: "EVList" <ev@...>
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 8:00 AM
Subject: Re: Very simple BMS


> --- Rich Rudman <rmanzan@...> wrote:
> >
> > Yes!
> > Lee Hart had a nice circuit for this.
> >
> > Joe and I had a LION tamer that really was a Zener and a Opto, and a
> > resistor. The Opto feed back to the PFC30 charger... and this gave
analog
> > cut back of the charger as well as cell to cell equalilzation.
> >
> Do you think I could make this work with Nicads, I believe their top end
is 1.5 volts per cell. It
> would have to be a simple (inexpensive) circuit because I would need over
300 of them. Does the
> PFC20 work the same way?
>
> Thanks
>
> Dave Cover
>

6 volt Regs could help this particular charge state.....
     But I can't say how much.....

Neat Idea, We can do it....

Do we need to???

Again... better keep a eye on temps... this IS the thermal take off
point....

The Gassing... the voltage peak.... the ones that are doing this are making
heat... But if you don't do this for a short while, it's just like not
finish charging a PbLa.
This is the chemistry that keeps all the cells in line... and the point
where you need to stop charging... once the last cell is bubbling... and
warming up.
The whole charge curve instructions are meant to get the cells to this
point, and not hurt them.  By time, by amphours and by Delta temp of the
cells.
     What us charger designers and all us EVers want, is to get them full as
fast and as safely as possible. And get back out on the road.

I can see having a 6 volt Reg... with a 110 Deg temp Switch..read VERY
agressive temp cutout sensor, on a couple of Cell packs.. the first to reach
this gassing point, or in defalut of knowing that ,one on  EVERY battery
blcok  This Covers your temp runaway, knocks the high down to reduce the
gassing on the Done ones... and kicks the system into off or hold mode
should the gassing and heating get...out of bounds.

More spendy boards and adjustments.... too keep the Lead and Nickel
alive....I know I know....more places to watch or have faila.... Well what
do we do??? Watch the meters like a hawk or, add stuff so we don't have
to????

I don't like it either... but it's what keeps packs alive for decades
instead of months.

I expect that I will have to add $5 to cost of My Regs...Even at $45 each I
can barley cover my costs. They are key items for Rapid charing....By the
way I am into the second decade of making Regs...
Man I am getting OLD!.

My Daughter was Well married this past weekend, Thanks for  coming to John
Wayland and Father time(Don Crabtree) and Tom True.  We had a Nice EV racing
table....I picked up the Tab...

Still got Beer and wine....

Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
Madman


----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Zach" <czach@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 8:32 AM
Subject: Re: Very simple BMS


> > Are we sure it's NEEDED for NiCd batteries?  These BB600's seem to allow
> > a fair amount of overcharging, and the cell voltage actually drops a bit
> > after they reach full charge.
>
> Well true, however I have noticed they start really bubbling along once
> they hit 1.5 volts and that's about when all the AH out have been
> replaced (thus meaning "full"). So what I'd like to do is clamp packs of
> 5 once they hit 7.5 volts, and give the others time to catch up. Right
> now I stop the series charge when most of them come up to bubble land,
> and use a dedicated smart charger on the laggard segments.
>
> Then again they might just be coming into sync. I'll find out more after
> the next set of runs with the tractor; right now all blocks are fully
> charged.
>
> Chris
>

> NiCADs  NEED a amp counter .... or some way to detect voltage peaking and
> the start of thermal runaway.
Well true, however I have not seen much of a voltage "saddle" (drop,
then rise) on these cells, just a voltage ramp up past 1.6 volts when
"over full". I monitor temp, but they don't seem to get warm at "over
full" either.

> Looking across a cell at voltage, is not going to tell you much unless you
> know what you took out, how much has been put back in and weather the Cell
> temp is steady or climbing .
So far these flooded Safts are kind of weird. I've watched them charge
and discharge using the E-meter and dumping the results every second to
a laptop. With Excel and pivot table it looks like they come up to 1.3
volts fast, then 1.4 volts, then sit at 1.40-1.49 volts for the bulk
charge. About the time the AH counter hits zero they start climbing to
1.5 volts, then thru 1.6 volts very quickly.

Not the same profile as say sintered plate or Prismatic NiMH cells.

Chris

In thinking about the cell temps, I wonder if the reason these don't
heat up much is because they do *not* have catalytic converters in the
cells. Saft road cells have that, and although it reduces water lossage
it does heat the cell a lot as the reaction starts.

Maybe that has something to do with it.

Chris


Rich Rudman wrote:
> 6 volt Regs could help this particular charge state.....
>     But I can't say how much.....
>
> Neat Idea, We can do it....
>
> Do we need to???
>
> Again... better keep a eye on temps... this IS the thermal take off
> point....
>
> The Gassing... the voltage peak.... the ones that are doing this are making
> heat... But if you don't do this for a short while, it's just like not
> finish charging a PbLa.
> This is the chemistry that keeps all the cells in line... and the point
> where you need to stop charging... once the last cell is bubbling... and
> warming up.
> The whole charge curve instructions are meant to get the cells to this
> point, and not hurt them.  By time, by amphours and by Delta temp of the
> cells.
>     What us charger designers and all us EVers want, is to get them full as
> fast and as safely as possible. And get back out on the road.
>
> I can see having a 6 volt Reg... with a 110 Deg temp Switch..read VERY
> agressive temp cutout sensor, on a couple of Cell packs.. the first to reach
> this gassing point, or in defalut of knowing that ,one on  EVERY battery
> blcok  This Covers your temp runaway, knocks the high down to reduce the
> gassing on the Done ones... and kicks the system into off or hold mode
> should the gassing and heating get...out of bounds.
>
> More spendy boards and adjustments.... too keep the Lead and Nickel
> alive....I know I know....more places to watch or have faila.... Well what
> do we do??? Watch the meters like a hawk or, add stuff so we don't have
> to????
>
> I don't like it either... but it's what keeps packs alive for decades
> instead of months.
>
> I expect that I will have to add $5 to cost of My Regs...Even at $45 each I
> can barley cover my costs. They are key items for Rapid charing....By the
> way I am into the second decade of making Regs...
> Man I am getting OLD!.
>
> My Daughter was Well married this past weekend, Thanks for  coming to John
> Wayland and Father time(Don Crabtree) and Tom True.  We had a Nice EV racing
> table....I picked up the Tab...
>
> Still got Beer and wine....
>
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
> Madman
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Christopher Zach" <czach@...>
> To: <ev@...>
> Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 8:32 AM
> Subject: Re: Very simple BMS
>
>
>
>>>Are we sure it's NEEDED for NiCd batteries?  These BB600's seem to allow
>>>a fair amount of overcharging, and the cell voltage actually drops a bit
>>>after they reach full charge.
>>
>>Well true, however I have noticed they start really bubbling along once
>>they hit 1.5 volts and that's about when all the AH out have been
>>replaced (thus meaning "full"). So what I'd like to do is clamp packs of
>>5 once they hit 7.5 volts, and give the others time to catch up. Right
>>now I stop the series charge when most of them come up to bubble land,
>>and use a dedicated smart charger on the laggard segments.
>>
>>Then again they might just be coming into sync. I'll find out more after
>>the next set of runs with the tractor; right now all blocks are fully
>>charged.
>>
>>Chris
>>
>
>

Nick Viera wrote:

> I'm not convinced that LEDs would be good for headlight replacement.

I was thinking more along the lines of adding the LEDS in addition to
your stock headlights like this:

For city driving where the streets/parking lots are so bright that you
can't tell a difference if the lights are on or off.  Have the LED
headlights on in those cases(to comply with Johnny Law).  Switch over
to the standard headlights when more light is needed.


> Yes, but I've yet to come up with a good way to implement an automatic
> switching method.... and a manual switch in the dash doesn't seem like a
> good solution to me.

For long stretches, turn it off to save power.  I personally would
have it on a manual switch for more control over it.

Have you thought about using 2 DC/DC's?

http://www.powerstream.com/DC-HV.htm

Hi Everybody,

I am back online after a long race weekend at Moroso Motorsports Park but I
wanted to respond to this subject.

ProEV's Electric Imp is charged by a Manzanita Micro PFC50. In fact, #6 from
the production line. This incredible versatile and powerful charger is an
essential part of our effort to compete with ICE race cars.

The perfect example is running at the Homestead-Miami Speedway. This track
has numerous 50 amp 240 volt outlets. We are able to plug in and recharge
our Kokam lithium polymer 360 volt 70 amp-hr pack from dead empty to full in
less than 3 hours. This means that we can run hard in qualifying in the
morning and still start the afternoon race with a full charge.

For less perfect tracks, the PFC's ability to charge off of any 110 or 240
outlet comes into play. Moroso does not have modern 240 volt 50 amp outlets.
But as long as we can match the plug, the charger will work.

The track is out in the middle of a swamp and faces some challenges in
providing reliable power. The maps do not show it as actually
being in the Everglades but driving to the track, all the roadkill I saw
were alligators. The wiring is corroded and it is hard to draw full power.
Since the chargers are Power Factor Corrected (PFC), the charger allows you
to get the most from the outlet.

We started the weekend using the team's generator. This was a Honda 5000. It
was rated 5.0 kW peak and 4.5 kW continuous. We plugged the PFC50 into the
240 volt 30 amp plug and adjusted the current limit dial so that we were
charging the pack at about 330 volts and 12 amps. This works out to be about
4.0 kW but beyond this load the gas motor began to knock and splutter.
Generators seem to be rated a little optimistically.

This set up got us through test day. Saturday the generator labored and
labored. Finally it emitted a bad smell and relieved of it's load, began to
run much easier. The generator part was dead.

We were park next to RTR Motorsportz (www.RTRMotorsportz.com). They offered
us their extra generator. It had a 110 volt 20 amp plug. No problem for the
PFC50. Not wanting to do in a second generator, we limited our charge rate
at 5 amps simply by setting the current limit dial.

The downside was that the pack would need 14 hours for a full charge. We
went looking for outlets.

Outside the track, there is camper parking. Each spot comes with 20 amp and
30 amp 110 volt outlets. We had our cheater box and tried to combine two 30
amp 110 plugs to get 30 amps of 220 volt. Unfortunately all the 30 amp
outlets were one phase and all the 20 amp outlets were the other.

We then tried to use the 20 amp and 30 amp together but the 20 amp had a
built in GFI that would trip as soon as we plugged them together.

Finally we settled for the PFC50 running off the 30 amp 110 outlet. The pack
voltage was about 320 volt. We soon had the car charging at 10 amps. After
about an hour, the outlet went dead. We chased down a maintenance guy. He
reset the main breaker but told us that it was almost too hot to touch. We
ended up charging at 6 amps.

The moral of the story (besides that we need a bigger generator) is that the
flexibility of the PFC50 made it possible for us to find a way to get the
race car charged.

Cliff

www.ProEV.com

It is not a replacement but compliment - the purpose of day time
running lights is to make a car more visible (which supposedly is
considered safer), not to illuminate the road. So high brightness
low luminosity light source like LEDs are very adequate
for it - you won't see anything illuminated by them, but everyone
will sure see *you*, which is the purpose.

The ICEs already have headlights and while it's waste to run them
in day time, it is cheaper than come up with extra lights, so
mfrs just use that. Some newer car's wiring is modified that you
can't even turn it off. My mom's VW Jetta is that way.

Victor

Nick Viera wrote:

>>  Maybe some LED headlights for "city driving" and be able to switch
>> from those to the drainers if more light is needed..
>
>
> I'm not convinced that LEDs would be good for headlight replacement.
> Seems to me that appropriately sized emitters would also consume quite a
> bit of power, not to mention being pretty expensive. However, I have
> converted most of the other exterior lighting to LEDs already...

--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different

Hi Chris and All,

--- Christopher Zach <czach@...> wrote:

> > Are we sure it's NEEDED for NiCd batteries?  These
> BB600's seem to allow
> > a fair amount of overcharging, and the cell
> voltage actually drops a bit
> > after they reach full charge.
>
> Well true, however I have noticed they start really
> bubbling along once
> they hit 1.5 volts and that's about when all the AH
> out have been
> replaced (thus meaning "full"). So what I'd like to

     They need 110% replaced if fully charged before
discharged.

> do is clamp packs of
> 5 once they hit 7.5 volts, and give the others time
> to catch up. Right
> now I stop the series charge when most of them come
> up to bubble land,
> and use a dedicated smart charger on the laggard
> segments.

     On my SAFT's they are not charged until 1.6v/cell
at least. So it looks like you are not fully charging
your cells.
      While this is cool and even prefered for 4 out of
5 charges to reduce watering, lower power needed to
charge, they must be fully charged to 1.65v/cell about
every 5th charge to stay in balance, cap if used
often. if not used every other day then you need the
higher charging more often.
       I found over 6 yrs of using mine they, after
several charges after sitting a while, stablize
together quite well and never had the least need of
regs to stay that way. And my cells are at least 30yrs
old now.
       I also noticed that after accidently
overcharging them badly, they put out much more power,
cap  so I started charging them harder and was pleased
with the results. Mostly I charge to all of them at
least 1.6v/cell with some over 1.7v/c and they still
put out over rated power once a week.
      So boil, only about 80% charged when they start
to boil, them some especially in the beginning and you
will be pleasently surprised with added power, cap.
      It's little wonder yours make little heat!! It's
not untilthe start getting warm, they are charged.
       Also be aware the batts on the ends can stay
much cooler than those in the middle.
                    HTH's,
                      Jerry Dycus
>
> Then again they might just be coming into sync. I'll
> find out more after
> the next set of runs with the tractor; right now all
> blocks are fully
> charged.
>
> Chris
>
>




____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

--- jerry dycus <jerry5335@...> wrote:
>
> They need 110% replaced if fully charged before discharged.
>
>      While this is cool and even prefered for 4 out of
> 5 charges to reduce watering, lower power needed to
> charge, they must be fully charged to 1.65v/cell about
> every 5th charge to stay in balance, cap if used
> often. if not used every other day then you need the
> higher charging more often.

My assumptions;
- I have all night to charge
- My cells, Marathons, are probably full at 1.5 volts (for now at least)
- I don't want to water any more than I have to
- aggressive charging equals more watering
- I probably can't afford either a watering system or sophisticated BMS

So, what do you need for the final phase? Suppose I detect a high enough voltage
(~1.5/cell) or
high temperature (going into runaway) and go into second phase of charging. If I
have the time,
can I just let them boil at a low rate to finish the charge and balance out? Or
do they need a
fairly aggressive rate to balance? Is it time or rate?

Thanks

Dave Cover

It's not time or rate, it's amphours.  The best way to charge them correctly
is to keep track of how much you have taken out and put 110% back in.
However, many scenarios other than that are good enough.  Unless you are
constantly taking your EV to it's range limit, you don't need to worry about
getting a perfect charge everytime.

I know my motorcycle uses about 2.5 ahrs per mile, so when I get back from a
ride I adjust my rather crude variac charger to a voltage that seems like it
will put back in a bit more than I took out and set the timer.  If it does
put back in a bit more than I took out, great, if it doesn't that's fine
too. These are nicads and don't need a perfect charge everytime you use
them.   If I know that I am going someplace that will be close to the end of
my range, I charge to around 70 volts (1.6 volts per cell), then make sure
the current is in the 3 - 6 amp range and let it go for another 30 - 60
minutes.

If I had an emeter, I would probably be more precise because I could easily
do it, but I don't have an emeter and that batteries really don't care all
that much.  As long as I don't let them get too hot, I don't let them dry
out, and I avoid reversing the cells they are happy.

damon

>From: Dave Cover <davecover@...>
>Reply-To: ev@...
>To: EVList <ev@...>
>Subject: Re: Ni cad charging,  Re: Very simple BMS
>Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:43:04 -0700 (PDT)
>
>--- jerry dycus <jerry5335@...> wrote:
> >
> > They need 110% replaced if fully charged before discharged.
> >
> >      While this is cool and even prefered for 4 out of
> > 5 charges to reduce watering, lower power needed to
> > charge, they must be fully charged to 1.65v/cell about
> > every 5th charge to stay in balance, cap if used
> > often. if not used every other day then you need the
> > higher charging more often.
>
>My assumptions;
>- I have all night to charge
>- My cells, Marathons, are probably full at 1.5 volts (for now at least)
>- I don't want to water any more than I have to
>- aggressive charging equals more watering
>- I probably can't afford either a watering system or sophisticated BMS
>
>So, what do you need for the final phase? Suppose I detect a high enough
>voltage (~1.5/cell) or
>high temperature (going into runaway) and go into second phase of charging.
>If I have the time,
>can I just let them boil at a low rate to finish the charge and balance
>out? Or do they need a
>fairly aggressive rate to balance? Is it time or rate?
>
>Thanks
>
>Dave Cover
>

Hi Dave and All,

--- Dave Cover <davecover@...> wrote:

> --- jerry dycus <jerry5335@...> wrote:
> >
> > They need 110% replaced if fully charged before
> discharged.
> >
> >      While this is cool and even prefered for 4
> out of
> > 5 charges to reduce watering, lower power needed
> to
> > charge, they must be fully charged to 1.65v/cell
> about
> > every 5th charge to stay in balance, cap if used
> > often. if not used every other day then you need
> the
> > higher charging more often.
>
> My assumptions;
> - I have all night to charge
> - My cells, Marathons, are probably full at 1.5
> volts (for now at least)

    No they are not and will go out of balance, die if
you keep doing that.

> - I don't want to water any more than I have to
> - aggressive charging equals more watering
> - I probably can't afford either a watering system
> or sophisticated BMS
>
> So, what do you need for the final phase? Suppose I
> detect a high enough voltage (~1.5/cell) or
> high temperature (going into runaway) and go into

      Those plus a timer would be great though I'd go
to a higher voltage of about 1.6v/c.
      Then turn off for your average charge. Then more
every 3-5 charges to 1.65/cell.
       As you learn your batts, you'll be able to
estimate the time needed to set the timer.
       I use to use my batt for 4-7 days before
charging them to cut watering. That gave me 5-6 or so
trips to the store which I used it for mostly.

> second phase of charging. If I have the time,
> can I just let them boil at a low rate to finish the
> charge and balance out? Or do they need a

    Fast or slow, as long as you put 110% back in at
least every 3-5 charges. Undercharge the other times
to keep watering low. There is no reason to have to
water more than 1/month if charging correctly.

> fairly aggressive rate to balance? Is it time or
> rate?

    Amount!!
                   HTH's,
                       Jerry Dycus
>
> Thanks
>
> Dave Cover
>
>




____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

Hello All,

I am in need of advice.

Currently in Sacramento Ca, I am smack in the middle
to converting my Nissan pickup. However I have
accepted a job in Holyoke Mass. Now I need to decide
if I want to ship the truck, or leave it here and
start fresh on the east coast.

So far I have removed all ICE components and
disassembled the dash, and un-loomed most of the wire
looms.

Initial quotes indicate a shipping price of about
$2,000 including the camper cap bed cover, and
ElectroAuto is in the process of making me an adapter
plate.

While almost 20 years old the vehicle has only spent 2
winters in a region that salts roads (Maine) with the
rest of the time in NC, eastern WA and CA, so other
than the needing a new paint job it is in good shape.

Leaving out the sentimental factor of having driven
this truck for close to 20 years, it seems that it
makes sense to leave it here in CA, if I can get a
replacement donor in Mass for about $1,000.

Anyone willing to hazard a guess as to the possibility
of finding a suitable donor in Western/Central Mass?

If I decide not to ship it, there would be a free
glider available in Sacramento, and I'll be willing
make a deal on an EA adapter plate!!!

Interesting....
It looks like voltage detect works very well on the THESE NiCds....

Hummm

Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Zach" <czach@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 11:38 AM
Subject: Re: Very simple BMS


> > NiCADs  NEED a amp counter .... or some way to detect voltage peaking
and
> > the start of thermal runaway.
> Well true, however I have not seen much of a voltage "saddle" (drop,
> then rise) on these cells, just a voltage ramp up past 1.6 volts when
> "over full". I monitor temp, but they don't seem to get warm at "over
> full" either.
>
> > Looking across a cell at voltage, is not going to tell you much unless
you
> > know what you took out, how much has been put back in and weather the
Cell
> > temp is steady or climbing .
> So far these flooded Safts are kind of weird. I've watched them charge
> and discharge using the E-meter and dumping the results every second to
> a laptop. With Excel and pivot table it looks like they come up to 1.3
> volts fast, then 1.4 volts, then sit at 1.40-1.49 volts for the bulk
> charge. About the time the AH counter hits zero they start climbing to
> 1.5 volts, then thru 1.6 volts very quickly.
>
> Not the same profile as say sintered plate or Prismatic NiMH cells.
>
> Chris
>

--- jerry dycus <jerry5335@...> wrote:
> > > They need 110% replaced if fully charged before discharged.
> > >

I'm getting there, albeit slowly. I'm trying to understand if I can set up a
charging process
that's as close to plug-and-play as possible. (Unless there's a magic wire I can
hook from my
Emeter to a PFC.)

So here's a made-up scenario to help me understand. Is this more like it?

Let's assume 44AH pack, running them down to 90% DOD = 40 AH taken out.
Charging 110% means 44AH going back in. (Pretend these are close enough.)

So I can charge at 10 amps for 3.5 hours and then taper down to 1 amp for
another 9 hours?

Do they gas less at lower rates?

If I only run 38AH out of them and then apply the same charge as above, what
happens?
Overkill or battery kill?

Thanks

Dave Cover

--- John OConnor <jpoclistaddress@...> wrote:
>
> I am in need of advice.
>
> While almost 20 years old the vehicle has only spent 2
> winters in a region that salts roads (Maine) with the

John, a couple of points;

- You may never find $1000 vehicle around here without any rust.
- You've done half the work already, and that can be the worst/dirtiest part of
the job.
- Is your new employer providing any moving expense?
- There may not be as many EVers out here, but you won't be alone. I'm about an
hour from Holyoke
and I'm pretty sure there are others even closer. (Bob R, who's up that way?)

When are you going to be out this way?

Dave Cover

ProEV [mailto:Promo@...] wrote:

> We started the weekend using the team's generator. This was a
> Honda 5000. It was rated 5.0 kW peak and 4.5 kW continuous.
> We plugged the PFC50 into the 240 volt 30 amp plug and
> adjusted the current limit dial so that we were charging the
> pack at about 330 volts and 12 amps. This works out to be
> about 4.0 kW but beyond this load the gas motor began to
> knock and splutter. Generators seem to be rated a little
> optimistically.

Your generator was rated fairly accurately; you just forgot that your
charger is not 100% efficient.

330V @ 12A = 3960W (3.96kW) output.  At 90% efficiency, the input power
is 4400W (4.4kW).  Add to this the fact that while the PFC's power
factor is quite good, it still isn't perfect, and you were probably
running the genset right at or just over its rated output.

Cheers,

Roger.

Dave points out what I figured would be a problem -
rust.

However, even if I can get the vehicle to MA cheaply
via my relocation package, we will be renting for a
while and I am somewhat concerned about dealing with a
non-operational vehicle while renting. If I store it
until we buy a house then those dollars will begin to
add up.

Do you Northeast converters "import" your donors, do
you just have to be patient and wait for the right
candidate, or just pay more for a relatively rust free
vehicle?

As for timing, I'll be a New Englander again in
September.

The more I think about it the more I think there will
be a free glider available in Sacramento.

John
--- Dave Cover <davecover@...> wrote:
> --- John OConnor <jpoclistaddress@...>
> wrote:
> > I am in need of advice.
> > While almost 20 years old the vehicle has only
> spent 2
> > winters in a region that salts roads (Maine) with
> the
>
> John, a couple of points;
>
> - You may never find $1000 vehicle around here
> without any rust.
> - You've done half the work already, and that can be
> the worst/dirtiest part of the job.
> - Is your new employer providing any moving expense?
> - There may not be as many EVers out here, but you
> won't be alone. I'm about an hour from Holyoke
> and I'm pretty sure there are others even closer.
> (Bob R, who's up that way?)
>
> When are you going to be out this way?
>
> Dave Cover

EV Digest 4509

Topics covered in this issue include:

   1) Re: 180 V Contactor
	 by "Roland Wiench" <ev_7@...>
   2) Re: Conversion Van
	 by Mike Chancey <evtinker@...>
   3) NiCDs and tractors.
	 by Christopher Zach <czach@...>
   4) Re: A few NiMH's on eBay
	 by "George S." <gfs28@...>
   5) Re: A few NiMH's on eBay
	 by Christopher Zach <czach@...>
   6) Very simple BMS
	 by Christopher Zach <czach@...>
   7) Prius
	 by "djsharpe" <djsharpe@...>
   8) Re: Very simple BMS
	 by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
   9) Re: Newbie - Need Charging Help
	 by Bob Bath <civicwithacord@...>
  10) Re: Prius
	 by John Wayland <dat1200@...>
  11) Re: 180 V Contactor
	 by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
  12) RE: Prius
	 by "djsharpe" <djsharpe@...>
  13) Re: Smart Charger
	 by "Rich Rudman" <rmanzan@...>
  14) Re: Prius
	 by "Jon" <turboser@...>
  15) Re: Prius
	 by "Christopher Robison" <eeyore@...>
  16) Re: Prius
	 by John Wayland <dat1200@...>
  17) Re: Prius
	 by John Wayland <dat1200@...>
  18) e mower
	 by "STEVE CLUNN" <steveclunn@...>
  19) Re: Smart Charger
	 by "Sharon Hoopes" <slh4@...>
  20) Re: Smart Charger
	 by "Rich Rudman" <rmanzan@...>
  21) Re: Very simple BMS
	 by "Rich Rudman" <rmanzan@...>
  22) Re: Smart Charger
	 by "Rich Rudman" <rmanzan@...>
  23) Re: Smart Charger
	 by "Sharon Hoopes" <slh4@...>
  24) Re: Very simple BMS
	 by Dave Cover <davecover@...>
  25) Re: Very simple BMS
	 by "John G. Lussmyer" <Cougar@...>
  26) Re: Very simple BMS
	 by Christopher Zach <czach@...>
  27) Re: New EM pictures and a newbee question.
	 by "Alex Smith" <cdninoh@...>
  28) Re: OT watch the acronyms!
	 by Victor Tikhonov <vtikhono@...>
  29) Re: Very simple BMS
	 by Victor Tikhonov <vtikhono@...>
  30) Re: OT watch the acronyms!
	 by Steve O <dr_steve@...>

----- Original Message -----
   From: Rush<mailto:Rush@...>
   To: ev@...<mailto:ev@...>
   Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2005 11:53 AM
   Subject: 180 V Contactor


   Hello,

   What contactors should I use for a 180 V system? Where can I get them? I want
2, one for the key switch and another for my Zilla. One will be on the neg path
(key) and the other on the pos path (Zilla?) of the bat pack. Amp wise I am not
sure what it should be.

   Will a Kilovac Cozonka lll, EV-200 work for me? It has 250 amps continuous. My
battery pack will be 30 Trojan T-125's.

   Thanks for the help.

   Rush
   Tucson AZ
   www.ironandwood.org<http://www.ironandwood.org/>


   Hello Rush,

   If you want the best contactor made, that is design for electric vehicles,
look at the A1200 DC Contactors that have 300 and 400 amps continuous with
magnetic blows and accessories mounts for microswitches.

   I pay about $400.00 for this contactor.

   They are made by Cableform, Ltd., Gratrix Works, Gratrix Lane, Sowerby Bridge,
West Yorkshire, England HX6 2PH.

   State side distributor is:

   Cableform, Inc.
   8845 Three Notch Road
   Troy, Virgina 22974-9512

   Tel: 804-589-8224
   Fax: 804-589-3803

   I have now run these contactors in my 180 volt EV.  You can get the coils
voltage from 12 to 270 volts.  I used a 180 volt coil which is then control by a
plug in glass relay from Square D Company that has a 12 volt coil and 250 volt
contact ratings.

   If you used a 12 volt coil on these contactors, the amperes is about 5 amps. 
At 180 volts its only .2 amp.
   If at 12 volts, its is best to used a Bidirectional Zener Overvoltage
Transient Suppressor across the coils leads, like NTE's 4993 to 4999 classes ot
you can order it with optional Single-Diode Suppression or Resistor-Diode
Suppression if you used the lower voltage coils.

   Still used the Bidirectional Zener Suppressor across the coil even at 180
volts to protect the relay contacts.

   Having the contactor coils operated off the main battery pack is no problem. 
These contactors still hold  down to 5% of the norminal coil voltage, or 9
volts.

   Pull in voltage on these contactors are 120 volts or well below the low cut
range of a controller, so the voltage drop of the battery pack is not a concern.

   These contactors can work on a overvoltage of over 230 volts.

   These contactors will take a maximum surge amperes of 2000 amps at 240 volts.

   I now have run two of these contactors for over 30 years now.  I order one
spare contactor plus all replacement spare parts and contacts.  Did not have to
used any spare parts as of to date.  You can either replace a contact or weld on
new silver-cadmium contacts with high temperature silver solder.  Never have to
do that yet.

   The new spare contactor will still fit the mounting brackets.  It's like
buying a circuit breaker for a house panel that was install in the 1940's.  50
years from now, you can still buy parts for your EV.

   Cableform, Inc. has to have replacements parts that will replace any
industrial items made way back then.  They just go done installing the motor
control systems in one of are new nuclear submarines.

   Roland

Hi Randy and all,

Jet Industries did do a few full size Dodge Vans and Maxi-Vans around '79
or' 80.  144 Volts of golf cart batteries, GE SCR controller and an 11" GE
motor,  Dismal performance and poor range.  I think they could hit 45 mph
but the range was only something like 20-25 miles.  A couple of the
Maxi-Vans turned up for sale in Iowa a few years back.  I would love to
mess with one but they didn't seem too practical.  Sadly, I think they
ended up getting scrapped.

For your project the real question is what is the mission for this
vehicle?  Haul one person?  Haul seven people?  Haul half a ton of
furniture?  Whether or not an EV conversion of this van can be made to
handle you needs is going to depend on what you want to use it for.  If it
can be done, then the question becomes the cost.

The cheapest conversion I ever heard of was done for $1500.  Most run $5000
to $9000 if you stick to the lower end components.  Even if gas hits $3 per
gallon and your van gets only 12 miles per gallon $9000 will buy enough gas
to go 36,000 miles or enough to make your projected 80 mile trip 450
times.  Driving gasoline free is seldom cheap enough to make up for the
cost of conversion.

I think a more realistic idea for you might be to purchase a used
conversion and use it to cover the trips that don't require the range or
cargo capacity of the van.  Decent conversions are often available for less
than the price of the parts.  Say pick one up for $4000, drive it for a
while and learn how well an EV fits your needs.  Odds are if you keep it in
good shape you could then resell it for at least what you invested.

Thanks,


Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html

I'm really glad you got this working Mark; even with the Hydrostatic
transmission your numbers sound pretty close to my Elec-trak with 30 of
them. (Soon to be 60 when I get my nickel interconnects).

Honest question: Do you miss the concept of multiple motor speeds with
the hydro transmission and clutch? If you don't need a controller for a
lawn tractor, you just saved a boatload of money and made a solution
that will pretty much last forever.

Sears tractors are pretty stock and have engines that blow up before the
tractor frame's time. It would probably be worth it to a lot of people
for you to post some of your issues and thoughts in converting this. For
example: What kind of contactor interlock did you come up with, and
where did you put the batteries?

This might be a good recommendation to other people who might want to
convert: Start by converting your lawn tractor. Pretty much all tractors
use open bowl carbs, no emissions control, and I think I recall that
they make as much pollution as 50 automobiles. So if you want to make a
serious dent in pollution, convert your lown mower not your car :-)

Chris


Mark Hastings wrote:

> I have 40 of them in my Sears Craftsman Garden tractor
> with a hydrostatic transmission. Yes I have only done
> two mowing with it but they seem to work great with
> the ETEK that is running them. I only briefly see 100
> amps most of the mowing is at 65 amps. The 100 amps
> was 10 inch high thick grass and I was going slowly
> through it to mulch it up good going any faster was
> about 90 amps but left clumps.
> It may just be the EVness that is getting to me but I
> have to say it is a whole lot better mower then it was
> before mulching much cleaner and going up hills
> faster.  I'm going to try dropping to 36, 42 or even
> 43.2 (4 9 cell packs) volts for the next mow because
> 48 volts actually seems like too much.
> Since the motor always goes one speed it still seems a
> waste of money to do a controller since I am using a
> PM motor.

At 12:46 AM 7/17/2005 -0700, you wrote:

>These seem to be the standard NIMH batteries used in EV1 and Toyota RAV4.
>Anybody have BMS for these batteries?

These are EV1 ovonics batteries the RAV4 has Panasonic NIMH.

George S.

I wonder where they are coming from. A truck filled with 25 of these
(300 volt base system) would have 100 mile range easily.

Mmmmm..... No, stick with the NiCDs for now CZ :-)

Chris

George S. wrote:

> At 12:46 AM 7/17/2005 -0700, you wrote:
>
>> These seem to be the standard NIMH batteries used in EV1 and Toyota
>> RAV4. Anybody have BMS for these batteries?
>
>
> These are EV1 ovonics batteries the RAV4 has Panasonic NIMH.
>
> George S.
>

Before I blow up a few zeners, is it possible to build a rock simple
battery clamper (7.5 volt cutoff) with just a 7.5 volt zener and an
appropriate size resistor?

Chris

I am considering getting a  2001 Prius for my daughter. Could a Prius
owner pl advise suitable web site to look at issues & give general
advice.
Regards
David

Christopher Zach wrote:
>
> Before I blow up a few zeners, is it possible to build a rock simple
> battery clamper (7.5 volt cutoff) with just a 7.5 volt zener and an
> appropriate size resistor?

Yes, that is exactly what I've done for a few people.

I built them for 12v batteries, and so used two 5 watt zeners, one 6.2v
and one 6.8v. The resistor is a #PR2 light bulb. This setup draws less
than 1ma at 13.0v, and 500ma at 15v.

For 6v batteries, you'd need a single high-power 6.2v to 6.8v zener.
These are kind of scarce nowdays. Instead, I'd probably use a smaller
zener and a power transistor. If you thought you needed precise,
adjustable regulation, you could use an IC like a TL431 with a trimpot
and a power transistor.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
	 -- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

Hi Joel, and welcome to the list!
    The K&W is actually a good smart charger, as it
tapers the current down and ramps the voltage up,
according to its programming resistors.
    I type slow, and it's a meaty topic, so suffice it
to say, you need:
a) a refractometer or, a hygrometer,
b)  a voltmeter,
c) the manual to your K&W
and d) www.usbattery.com or www.trojan.com (depending
on your batts.
They will tell you how high in volts per cell to take
the charge, and how often to equalize.
Have fun with your Rabbit.  I'm guessing it's a Mike
Brown model, and I truly enjoyed mine before building
a Civic.  (I like the body style more, and wanted to
refine a few aspects).
All of the best,


--- Joel Silverman <jm_silverman@...> wrote:

> Excuse the basic questions but I could use some help
> in figuring out the charging on my Volts Rabbit.  It
> has a 96V (6Vx16) US 125 Battery pack and a K&W 20
> charger.  The car has an analog SOC gauge and that
> is
> it.  Since this is a "dumb" charger, I really need
> help in determining how to best charge my pack.
>
> What steps should I take to make sure I am getting
> the
> most from my batteries.
> 1)How do I determine how much was pulled from the
> pack
> after driving (check the voltage)??
>
> 2) What are the steps in charging?  I know of bulk
> and
> finish but not sure what it all means.
>
> 3) How do I figure out how to set up the charger.  I
> see there is a Current setting and a Voltage
> setting.
> How do they relate to each other?
>
> I have a timer set up at home to turn the charger
> off.
>
> I sure could use some help.  I know that these are
> the
> most basic of EV questions but I really want to
> understand the process involved in properly charging
> flooded batteries.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Joel
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>


'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
				    ____
                      __/__|__\ __
            =D-------/   -  -     \
                      'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?



__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail for Mobile
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail

Hello David,

djsharpe wrote:

> I am considering getting a  2001 Prius for my daughter. Could a Prius
> owner pl advise suitable web site to look at issues & give general
> advice.

You narrowed your request field to just Prius owners, so as the owner of an
Insight hybrid
I feel a bit excluded....I'll nonetheless steer you over to those other hybrid
guys :-)

<toyota-prius@yahoogroups.com>

With exception to the tedious and distracting political dialog they allow on
this DL, it
is otherwise an excellent source of information on all things Prius. Our own Lee
Hart is a
member of this list, as am I.

As a side bar.... today's trip from way up north in Port Townsend, WA back to
the Portland
metro area, with our fully loaded Insight packed with three days of travel stuff
and the
full people load of two, on a 27 mile portion of the trip up and over hilly
terrain it
logged 93.4 mph from Port Townsend to Kingston. The entire return leg home of
250.2 miles
from Port Townsend to Portland averaged 74 mph, that, with a fully loaded car,
and the AC
on the entire time while driving at freeway speeds. After 557.6 miles driven for
the round
trip this weekend which included lots of hill climbing and city driving, the
dash gauge
says there's still about 1/3 of the fuel left in the 10+ gallon tank...but
wait....according to GM's  latest press release hybrids don't really work, this
from the
same idiots who crushed the EV1. Gotta love GM, as they say such stupid stuff
while at the
same time they have to nearly give away their vehicles at 'Employee pricing'.
Meanwhile,
Toyota has a waiting list at full retail pricing for their Prius, one of those
hybrids
that don't really work :-)

Hope this helps.

See Ya....John Wayland

Rush wrote:
> What contactors should I use for a 180 V system? Where can I get
> them? I want 2, one for the key switch and another for my Zilla.
> One will be on the neg path (key) and the other on the pos path
> (Zilla?) of the bat pack. My battery pack will be 30 Trojan T-125's.

Roland Wiench wrote:
> If you want the best contactor made, that is design for electric
> vehicles, look at the A1200 DC Contactors that have 300 and 400
> amps continuous with magnetic blows and accessories mounts for
> microswitches. I pay about $400.00 for this contactor. They are
> made by Cableform, Ltd., Gratrix Works, Gratrix Lane, Sowerby
> Bridge, West Yorkshire, England HX6 2PH. State side distributor is:
>
>   Cableform, Inc.
>   8845 Three Notch Road
>   Troy, Virgina 22974-9512
>
>   Tel: 804-589-8224
>   Fax: 804-589-3803

Cableform makes great industrial-grade contactors. But, they are big and
expensive, and probably more than you need for your EV.

Despite the Zilla's breathtaking power capability, you aren't going to
want to draw over 500 amps peak from your golf cart batteries, and your
average battery current should certainly be kept under 250 amps. This
will allow a much smaller contactor to be used without risk.

Since you plan to have two contactors in series, I think you can use the
Albright SW200 series. They are rated at 96vdc, 250amps continuous, 1500
amps interrupting. The SW200 is a single, or the SW204 is a pair of
these contactors. The Albrights are widely available from KTA, EVparts,
etc.

Just make sure that in the event of an emergency shutdown, BOTH
contactors are turned off at the same time. Otmar can help you set up
the Zilla this way.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
	 -- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

Thanks John for your most encouraging letter.
David

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...] On
Behalf Of John Wayland
Sent: Monday, 18 July 2005 11:29 AM
To: ev@...
Subject: Re: Prius

Hello David,

djsharpe wrote:

> I am considering getting a  2001 Prius for my daughter. Could a Prius
> owner pl advise suitable web site to look at issues & give general
> advice.

You narrowed your request field to just Prius owners, so as the owner of
an Insight hybrid
I feel a bit excluded....I'll nonetheless steer you over to those other
hybrid guys :-)

<toyota-prius@yahoogroups.com>

With exception to the tedious and distracting political dialog they
allow on this DL, it
is otherwise an excellent source of information on all things Prius. Our
own Lee Hart is a
member of this list, as am I.

As a side bar.... today's trip from way up north in Port Townsend, WA
back to the Portland
metro area, with our fully loaded Insight packed with three days of
travel stuff and the
full people load of two, on a 27 mile portion of the trip up and over
hilly terrain it
logged 93.4 mph from Port Townsend to Kingston. The entire return leg
home of 250.2 miles
from Port Townsend to Portland averaged 74 mph, that, with a fully
loaded car, and the AC
on the entire time while driving at freeway speeds. After 557.6 miles
driven for the round
trip this weekend which included lots of hill climbing and city driving,
the dash gauge
says there's still about 1/3 of the fuel left in the 10+ gallon
tank...but
wait....according to GM's  latest press release hybrids don't really
work, this from the
same idiots who crushed the EV1. Gotta love GM, as they say such stupid
stuff while at the
same time they have to nearly give away their vehicles at 'Employee
pricing'. Meanwhile,
Toyota has a waiting list at full retail pricing for their Prius, one of
those hybrids
that don't really work :-)

Hope this helps.

See Ya....John Wayland

Define smart charger.....

Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sharon Hoopes" <slh4@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 12:02 PM
Subject: Smart Charger


> Looking for:
> 132 volt
> 30 amp output
> 240 input AC
> Smart Charger
>
>
> Bill & Sharon Hoopes
> slh4@...
>
>

John Wayland wrote:

> wait....according to GM's  latest press release hybrids don't really work

Can you provide a link to the press release? I tried to look for it on
Google, all I got was a press release of Chrysler and GM working together on
a hybrid powertrain.

thanks,

Jon Davis

Not that this is really connected with the topic at all, but on the
subject of the Prius:  For our meeting on Saturday, the AustinEV crew
gathered at the home of one of our members, Andrew Donoho, who bravely
offered up his 2004 Toyota Prius to receive the EV-mode kit from the folks
at Coastal Electronic Technologies. Far too many cooks were in the
kitchen, but somehow we managed to finish without blemishing Andrew's gem
of a car.

The installation was really easy and very well documented. The result was
a Prius that drove in silence (and I mean utter silence -- the *fap* *fap*
*fap* of a chip of cedar from Andrew's driveway lodged in a rear tire was
the noisiest thing on the car) up to 34mph. The disappointing part was the
range. While the battery pack is well-suited to hybrid use, it's sadly too
small to be very useful as an EV pack. Also unfortunate is that all you're
really doing is putting off the gasoline-fueled charging phase. But it
*is* a real treat while it lasts.

Pluggable hybrids can't come quickly enough in my opinion, and Andrew
agrees.  His plan is to give rides to as many people as he can and I think
he'll have no trouble convincing folks of how cool it would be to be able
to drive electric in a fantastic car like the Prius on power from solar
arrays and Austin's Green Choice wind-powered electricity program. The
city of Austin is making major efforts to advocate the plug-in hybrid
concept, and I wish them the best of luck. I hear that there will be big
news about this in the near future.

A quick post on Saturday's Prius-centered shindig is here:

http://www.ohmbre.org/blog/?p=9

   --chris



John Wayland said:
> Hello David,
>
> djsharpe wrote:
>
>> I am considering getting a  2001 Prius for my daughter. Could a Prius
>> owner pl advise suitable web site to look at issues & give general
>> advice.
>
> You narrowed your request field to just Prius owners, so as the owner of
> an Insight hybrid
> I feel a bit excluded....I'll nonetheless steer you over to those other
> hybrid guys :-)
>
> <toyota-prius@yahoogroups.com>
>
> With exception to the tedious and distracting political dialog they allow
> on this DL, it
> is otherwise an excellent source of information on all things Prius. Our
> own Lee Hart is a
> member of this list, as am I.
>
> As a side bar.... today's trip from way up north in Port Townsend, WA back
> to the Portland
> metro area, with our fully loaded Insight packed with three days of travel
> stuff and the
> full people load of two, on a 27 mile portion of the trip up and over
> hilly terrain it
> logged 93.4 mph from Port Townsend to Kingston. The entire return leg home
> of 250.2 miles
> from Port Townsend to Portland averaged 74 mph, that, with a fully loaded
> car, and the AC
> on the entire time while driving at freeway speeds. After 557.6 miles
> driven for the round
> trip this weekend which included lots of hill climbing and city driving,
> the dash gauge
> says there's still about 1/3 of the fuel left in the 10+ gallon tank...but
> wait....according to GM's  latest press release hybrids don't really work,
> this from the
> same idiots who crushed the EV1. Gotta love GM, as they say such stupid
> stuff while at the
> same time they have to nearly give away their vehicles at 'Employee
> pricing'. Meanwhile,
> Toyota has a waiting list at full retail pricing for their Prius, one of
> those hybrids
> that don't really work :-)
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> See Ya....John Wayland
>
>
>

Hello to All,

Jon wrote:

> John Wayland wrote:
>
> > wait....according to GM's  latest press release hybrids don't really work
>
> Can you provide a link to the press release? I tried to look for it on
> Google, all I got was a press release of Chrysler and GM working together on
> a hybrid powertrain.
>
> thanks,
>
> Jon Davis

It was on both the Prius List and the Honda Hybrid list:

<toyota-prius@yahoogroups.com>
<honda-hybrid@yahoogroups.com>

Here's the link to the 'Wired' magazine article that was all over these hybrid
DLs:

<http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.07/start.html?pg=11>

The GM exec states that hybrids only get 25% better fuel economy. I laugh at
statements
like this. Others say to effect, "Someday, we'll have the 80 mpg car." As stated
in my
earlier post, at one point in hilly terrain we were averaging 93 mpg in our 5+
year old
Honda Insight. I can travel 106 miles round trip between the cities of Portland,
OR and
the state's capital city Salem, and average 92 mpg...consistently. You call that
25%
better fuel economy?....GM does.
I also often hear things like, "Those hybrids don't ever get their EPA rating."
My 5
speed  2000 Insight was rated at 70 mpg highway. With two of us in the car,
three days
worth of travel luggage for two, the AC on continuously, and at higher speeds
(more like
65-75 mph) than the EPA testers do for highway mileage (tested at a slower 55
mph), we
averaged 74 mpg over 250 miles of varied terrain driving. It's quite frustrating
to hear
such BS about hybrids, just as it's frustrating to hear untruths about EVs.

See Ya....John Wayland

Hello ot All,

Christopher Robison wrote:

> Not that this is really connected with the topic at all, but on the
> subject of the Prius:  For our meeting on Saturday, the AustinEV crew
> gathered at the home of one of our members, Andrew Donoho, who bravely
> offered up his 2004 Toyota Prius to receive the EV-mode kit from the folks
> at Coastal Electronic Technologies. ...The result was
> a Prius that drove in silence to 34mph. The disappointing part was the
> range. While the battery pack is well-suited to hybrid use, it's sadly too
> small to be very useful as an EV pack.

Friend Geoff Shepherd has his new '05 model that he equipped with the Euro
option of the
'EV' button, also. It does the same thing and makes one wish for a bigger
battery pack, or
a LiIon type of the same weight, and an on-board plug in charger.

See Ya.....John Wayland

Yesterday I started taking the gas engine off the mower and just couldn't
stop , the gas engine had a 1 1/8 inch shaft , same as the net gain 8" . I
ended up cutting the shaft off the engine to get the pulley off, puller was
bending it up , and heat didn't help . It fit on the motor perfect and after
that I had to bolt the electric motor to the mower . I hooked up the belt
for the hydro's and spun the motor with 12v . Hydro drive works!!! . added 2
more batts which seemed to be as fast as needed. got lots to do still , this
mower was being used for  parts so I have to re part it .
got to leave it for now though , full work day . Will have some pictures on
the grassroots web site when Jon gets them up.
steve clunn

mainly "Turns its self off" do you have one.???

Bill & Sharon Hoopes
slh4@...



> [Original Message]
> From: Rich Rudman <rmanzan@...>
> To: <ev@...>
> Date: 7/17/2005 8:10:00 PM
> Subject: Re: Smart Charger
>
> Define smart charger.....
>
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sharon Hoopes" <slh4@...>
> To: <ev@...>
> Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 12:02 PM
> Subject: Smart Charger
>
>
> > Looking for:
> > 132 volt
> > 30 amp output
> > 240 input AC
> > Smart Charger
> >
> >
> > Bill & Sharon Hoopes
> > slh4@...
> >
> >

Yes I have a line of chargers that do this.
Check out
www.Manzanitamicro.com

Let me know if I can help.

Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sharon Hoopes" <slh4@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 5:11 AM
Subject: Re: Smart Charger


>
> mainly "Turns its self off" do you have one.???
>
> Bill & Sharon Hoopes
> slh4@...
>
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Rich Rudman <rmanzan@...>
> > To: <ev@...>
> > Date: 7/17/2005 8:10:00 PM
> > Subject: Re: Smart Charger
> >
> > Define smart charger.....
> >
> > Rich Rudman
> > Manzanita Micro
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Sharon Hoopes" <slh4@...>
> > To: <ev@...>
> > Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 12:02 PM
> > Subject: Smart Charger
> >
> >
> > > Looking for:
> > > 132 volt
> > > 30 amp output
> > > 240 input AC
> > > Smart Charger
> > >
> > >
> > > Bill & Sharon Hoopes
> > > slh4@...
> > >
> > >
>

Yes!
Lee Hart had a nice circuit for this.

Joe and I had a LION tamer that really was a Zener and a Opto, and a
resistor. The Opto feed back to the PFC30 charger... and this gave analog
cut back of the charger as well as cell to cell equalilzation.

We never made one, but could if somebody wanted a few hundred.....

Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Zach" <czach@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2005 4:07 PM
Subject: Very simple BMS


> Before I blow up a few zeners, is it possible to build a rock simple
> battery clamper (7.5 volt cutoff) with just a 7.5 volt zener and an
> appropriate size resistor?
>
> Chris
>

You want a PFC20B, This will fit your appliation very well.

$1800 1 week lead time from your check getting here.

There are LOT of folks on this EV list that have this kind of charger...

Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro


----- Original Message -----
From: "Sharon Hoopes" <slh4@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 5:11 AM
Subject: Re: Smart Charger


>
> mainly "Turns its self off" do you have one.???
>
> Bill & Sharon Hoopes
> slh4@...
>
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Rich Rudman <rmanzan@...>
> > To: <ev@...>
> > Date: 7/17/2005 8:10:00 PM
> > Subject: Re: Smart Charger
> >
> > Define smart charger.....
> >
> > Rich Rudman
> > Manzanita Micro
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Sharon Hoopes" <slh4@...>
> > To: <ev@...>
> > Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 12:02 PM
> > Subject: Smart Charger
> >
> >
> > > Looking for:
> > > 132 volt
> > > 30 amp output
> > > 240 input AC
> > > Smart Charger
> > >
> > >
> > > Bill & Sharon Hoopes
> > > slh4@...
> > >
> > >
>

thank you

Bill & Sharon Hoopes
slh4@...



> [Original Message]
> From: Rich Rudman <rmanzan@...>
> To: <ev@...>
> Date: 7/18/2005 7:10:27 AM
> Subject: Re: Smart Charger
>
> Yes I have a line of chargers that do this.
> Check out
> www.Manzanitamicro.com
>
> Let me know if I can help.
>
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sharon Hoopes" <slh4@...>
> To: <ev@...>
> Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 5:11 AM
> Subject: Re: Smart Charger
>
>
> >
> > mainly "Turns its self off" do you have one.???
> >
> > Bill & Sharon Hoopes
> > slh4@...
> >
> >
> >
> > > [Original Message]
> > > From: Rich Rudman <rmanzan@...>
> > > To: <ev@...>
> > > Date: 7/17/2005 8:10:00 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Smart Charger
> > >
> > > Define smart charger.....
> > >
> > > Rich Rudman
> > > Manzanita Micro
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Sharon Hoopes" <slh4@...>
> > > To: <ev@...>
> > > Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 12:02 PM
> > > Subject: Smart Charger
> > >
> > >
> > > > Looking for:
> > > > 132 volt
> > > > 30 amp output
> > > > 240 input AC
> > > > Smart Charger
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Bill & Sharon Hoopes
> > > > slh4@...
> > > >
> > > >
> >

--- Rich Rudman <rmanzan@...> wrote:
>
> Yes!
> Lee Hart had a nice circuit for this.
>
> Joe and I had a LION tamer that really was a Zener and a Opto, and a
> resistor. The Opto feed back to the PFC30 charger... and this gave analog
> cut back of the charger as well as cell to cell equalilzation.
>
Do you think I could make this work with Nicads, I believe their top end is 1.5
volts per cell. It
would have to be a simple (inexpensive) circuit because I would need over 300 of
them. Does the
PFC20 work the same way?

Thanks

Dave Cover

At 08:00 AM 7/18/2005, Dave Cover wrote:
>Do you think I could make this work with Nicads, I believe their top end
>is 1.5 volts per cell. It
>would have to be a simple (inexpensive) circuit because I would need over
>300 of them. Does the
>PFC20 work the same way?

Are we sure it's NEEDED for NiCd batteries?  These BB600's seem to allow a
fair amount of overcharging, and the cell voltage actually drops a bit
after they reach full charge.

--
John G. Lussmyer      mailto:Cougar@...
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....  http://www.CasaDelGato.com

> Are we sure it's NEEDED for NiCd batteries?  These BB600's seem to allow
> a fair amount of overcharging, and the cell voltage actually drops a bit
> after they reach full charge.

Well true, however I have noticed they start really bubbling along once
they hit 1.5 volts and that's about when all the AH out have been
replaced (thus meaning "full"). So what I'd like to do is clamp packs of
5 once they hit 7.5 volts, and give the others time to catch up. Right
now I stop the series charge when most of them come up to bubble land,
and use a dedicated smart charger on the laggard segments.

Then again they might just be coming into sync. I'll find out more after
the next set of runs with the tractor; right now all blocks are fully
charged.

Chris

Hi Lawrence,
Sorry for the delay in relpying but as a newbee, I wasn't prepared for all
the e-mail I got from this list. Combine this with company for the weekend
and, well, here we are.
As you could guess, I can't be much help to you on the controller issue but
would you be willing to part with about 120 of these cells?
Although i still pland on building large enough to house lead/acid
batteries, the ni-cads would give me quite a performance boost.
Please let me know you thoughts.
Alex Smith
Medina, Ohio.

>From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
>Reply-To: ev@...
>To: <ev@...>
>Subject: Re: New EM pictures and a newbee question.
>Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 18:31:17 -0700
>
>I still have about 200 or so of them.  I need a controller more than these
>batteries.  LR..........
>----- Original Message ----- From: "damon henry" <damonhenry@...>
>To: <ev@...>
>Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 11:14 AM
>Subject: Re: New EM pictures and a newbee question.
>
>
>>This list is as good a place as I know of to find them.  They are usually
>>obtained as military surplus, and thanks to the efforts of one of our list
>>members earlier this year some of us got in on a buy stemming from a
>>surplus auction.
>>
>>Unfortunately for you all of us who got in on this buy are just starting
>>to use our batteries and decididng whether they really fit the application
>>we were hoping to use them for.  Mine are working out great for me, but I
>>suspect others will find that they don't, and be offering them for sale in
>>the future.
>>
>>Since you are still in the design stage I would suggest looking at the
>>sizes of some of the more commonly used batteries and make sure you build
>>in a space that will accomodate as many of these choices as is practical.
>>We can certainly get you dimensions.  With the BB600 the only dimension
>>you really need to worry about is the height which is approx. 9 1/4
>>inches, but they do require occasional watering so you will need easy
>>access to the tops of them.  Also they are flooded so they need to be used
>>in a vertical position.
>>
>>These people used to sell them, but it's been well over a year since I
>>last checked with them.  Still you can see a photo and the dimensions.
>>
>>http://www.sg-photo.com/nicad_batteries.htm
>>
>>damon
>>
>>>From: "Alex Smith" <cdninoh@...>
>>>Reply-To: ev@...
>>>To: ev@...
>>>Subject: Re: New EM pictures and a newbee question.
>>>Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:33:21 +0000
>>>
>>>Hi Guys.
>>>Just joined at the advice of Jerry Dycus as I am in the process of
>>>building (well, gathereing the components and doing the design work) an
>>>electric motorcycle.
>>>It is to be a 'feet forward', low slung, semi-enclosed machine. While I
>>>am currently designing the machine to accomodate 5 12volt flooded
>>>batteries, the design would be much nicer with smaller batteries.
>>>I've done a good bit of surfing but have been unable to find the BB600's
>>>you have mentioned. Any leads?
>>>Alex Smith
>>>3 wheeled vehicle enthusiast.
>>>Glider Pilot.
>>>Sail boat enthusiast.
>>>EV's fit right in there, don't they?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>From: "damon henry" <damonhenry@...>
>>>>Reply-To: ev@...
>>>>To: ev@...
>>>>Subject: Re: New EM pictures
>>>>Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:22:09 +0000
>>>>
>>>>Actually 44 cells and 150lbs.
>>>>
>>>>>From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
>>>>>Reply-To: ev@...
>>>>>To: <ev@...>
>>>>>Subject: Re: New EM pictures
>>>>>Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 22:59:04 -0700
>>>>>
>>>>>So 60 batteries about 200 pounds?  17 miles.  Great.  If you can do any
>>>>>Freeway that is great.  The bike is so much cleaner now.  Seems you
>>>>>have the chain figured out too.  LR........
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I snapped a few shots of my bike with the BB600's mounted and added
>>>>>>them to my webpage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>http://home.comcast.net/~damonhenry/ebike.htm
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I am much happier with the way it looks with these batteries.  The
>>>>>>only downside is that people rarely notice that it is electric now :-(
>>>>>>
>>>>>>damon
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

I always tought that hp (horse hower) was there long before
Hewlett Packard been around too... :-)

Joe Strubhar wrote:
> I agree with your post, Bob; but don't use the "HP" acronym for HomePower
> mag. HP is Hewlett-Packard's designation, and just confuses people. Like
> using the acronym "EAA" for Electric Automobile Association - EAA stands for
> Experimental Aircraft Association, and has for more years than the Electric
> Automobile Association has been around!
>
> Joseph H. Strubhar
>
> E-Mail: joe@...
>
> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
> To: <ev@...>
> Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 6:05 AM
> Subject: Re: Battery fill system
>
>
>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Rush" <Rush@...>
>>To: <ev@...>
>>Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 1:16 AM
>>Subject: Re: Battery fill system
>>
>>
>>
>>>I got the site from the new issue of HomePower. The story is Power
>
> Tower,
>
>>they were used on a battery bank consisting of 16 6V Interstate batteries
>>and cost $775, so 775 / (16*3) = about $16 per cap retail. Maybe cheaper
>>direct...
>>
>>>By the way there is also a good article by Shari Prange about the Pirus
>
> +
>
>>>HomePower is a great Mag that really promotes all aspects of Renewable
>>
>>Energy and gives lots of very good how to do it articles. It would be
>
> great
>
>>if somebody would do the same for EV's.
>>
>>>  Hi Rush an' All;
>>
>>   HP has a lotta good stuff, they EVen try to get into EV stuff, although
>>they may be a bit dated. But we can fix that! An attempt was made a few
>>years ago with "Electric Car" magazine. Remember that, you older timers? I
>>thought they did a good job, articles, including stuff on John Wayland's
>>Racing. I subscribed, still waiting for volume two, sigh! It died after
>
> one
>
>>nice slick issue, it would go better on a news-stand, somebody casually
>>looking for a read, on a long train or plain flight. With tons of mags  on
>
> a
>
>>newsstand, I think there could be room, along with Soap opera News,
>>Wrestling, People, Slime, I mean TIME !And a plethura of stuff that I
>>wouldn't take if they handed it to me if I were walking by.Gees! Look at
>
> all
>
>>the VW stuff ya can get!
>>
>>    Maybe as EV's become more mainstream? Somebody could, would publish a
>>national mag. The List could be a great resourse.The Good Folks at Home
>>Power could start an EV mag, they have the distribution system in place,
>
> for
>
>>HP already.
>>
>>   Just some random early morning thoughts.
>>
>>    Seeya
>>
>>    Bob
>>
>>

--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different

The short answer is no.

Christopher Zach wrote:
> Before I blow up a few zeners, is it possible to build a rock simple
> battery clamper (7.5 volt cutoff) with just a 7.5 volt zener and an
> appropriate size resistor?
>
> Chris

--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different

Surely Horse Hower would be HH? :-p

Victor Tikhonov <vtikhono@...> wrote:I always tought that hp (horse hower)
was there long before
Hewlett Packard been around too... :-)

Joe Strubhar wrote:
> I agree with your post, Bob; but don't use the "HP" acronym for HomePower
> mag. HP is Hewlett-Packard's designation, and just confuses people. Like
> using the acronym "EAA" for Electric Automobile Association - EAA stands for
> Experimental Aircraft Association, and has for more years than the Electric
> Automobile Association has been around!
>
> Joseph H. Strubhar
>
> E-Mail: joe@...
>
> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Rice"
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 6:05 AM
> Subject: Re: Battery fill system
>
>
>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Rush"
>>To:
>>Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 1:16 AM
>>Subject: Re: Battery fill system
>>
>>
>>
>>>I got the site from the new issue of HomePower. The story is Power
>
> Tower,
>
>>they were used on a battery bank consisting of 16 6V Interstate batteries
>>and cost $775, so 775 / (16*3) = about $16 per cap retail. Maybe cheaper
>>direct...
>>
>>>By the way there is also a good article by Shari Prange about the Pirus
>
> +
>
>>>HomePower is a great Mag that really promotes all aspects of Renewable
>>
>>Energy and gives lots of very good how to do it articles. It would be
>
> great
>
>>if somebody would do the same for EV's.
>>
>>> Hi Rush an' All;
>>
>> HP has a lotta good stuff, they EVen try to get into EV stuff, although
>>they may be a bit dated. But we can fix that! An attempt was made a few
>>years ago with "Electric Car" magazine. Remember that, you older timers? I
>>thought they did a good job, articles, including stuff on John Wayland's
>>Racing. I subscribed, still waiting for volume two, sigh! It died after
>
> one
>
>>nice slick issue, it would go better on a news-stand, somebody casually
>>looking for a read, on a long train or plain flight. With tons of mags on
>
> a
>
>>newsstand, I think there could be room, along with Soap opera News,
>>Wrestling, People, Slime, I mean TIME !And a plethura of stuff that I
>>wouldn't take if they handed it to me if I were walking by.Gees! Look at
>
> all
>
>>the VW stuff ya can get!
>>
>> Maybe as EV's become more mainstream? Somebody could, would publish a
>>national mag. The List could be a great resourse.The Good Folks at Home
>>Power could start an EV mag, they have the distribution system in place,
>
> for
>
>>HP already.
>>
>> Just some random early morning thoughts.
>>
>> Seeya
>>
>> Bob
>>
>>

--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different

EV Digest 4508

Topics covered in this issue include:

   1) Re: Conversion Van
	 by cowtown@...
   2) bb600 nicad's
	 by "STEVE CLUNN" <steveclunn@...>
   3) Re: Conversion Van
	 by Tim Clevenger <tjclevenger@...>
   4) Re: Conversion Van
	 by "David Roden" <evpost@...>
   5) Re: Conversion Van
	 by "Tom Shay" <tshay7051@...>
   6) Re: Conversion Van
	 by TiM M <mr_tim34@...>
   7) RE: Dymaxion for hybrid RV , Aero, ground effect and  Van conversion
	 by keith vansickle <keithvansickle01@...>
   8) Re: DC/DC
	 by TiM M <mr_tim34@...>
   9) Re: Dymaxion for hybrid RV , Aero, ground effect and  Van conversion
	 by "Tom Shay" <tshay7051@...>
  10) Re: Dymaxion for hybrid RV , Aero, ground effect and  Van conversion
	 by "Dave" <Wilkerbeast01@...>
  11) RE: bb600 nicad's
	 by "damon henry" <damonhenry@...>
  12) Re: A few NiMH's on eBay
	 by "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
  13) Vas: Re: Solar cell energy balance
	 by Seppo Lindborg <seppo.lindborg@...>
  14) Re: bb600 nicad's/ev mower
	 by "STEVE CLUNN" <steveclunn@...>
  15) Re: Dymaxion for hybrid RV , Aero, ground effect and Van conversion
	 by "John Westlund" <westlujr@...>
  16) Re: A few NiMH's on eBay
	 by "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
  17) Re: 65 hp almost 215 mph
	 by jerry dycus <jerry5335@...>
  18) Re: DC/DC
	 by "STEVE CLUNN" <steveclunn@...>
  19) Subject:
	 RE: A few NiMH's on eBay
	 by billb <billb@...>
  20) Re: bb600 nicad's/ev mower
	 by Rod Hower <rodhower@...>
  21) Re: Interstate  U1450 vs. Trojan 5SHP vs J150
	 by "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
  22) RE: bb600 nicad's
	 by Mark Hastings <evblazer@...>
  23) Re: Interstate  U1450 vs. Trojan 5SHP.
	 by "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
  24) Re: Conversion Van
	 by Rush <Rush@...>
  25) Truck conversion
	 by Rush <Rush@...>
  26) 180 V Contactor
	 by Rush <Rush@...>
  27) Sparrow 4 sale in Santa Clara, CA
	 by Cor van de Water <CWater@...>
  28) Lithium - The next NiCad?
	 by Ryan Stotts <stotts.ryan@...>
  29) Re: Conversion Van
	 by jerry dycus <jerry5335@...>
  30) Re: Lithium - The next NiCad?
	 by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
  31) RE: Dymaxion for hybrid RV , Aero, ground effect and  Van conversion
	 by jerry dycus <jerry5335@...>

<<<Well the money is there and think it would be lots of fun to do but only if
its a significant cost savings over gasoline power.
Randy>>>

There's little chance you'll spend less overall on an EV than your out-of-pocket
expenses runnning the original ICE - saving money is not why most people do a
conversion. The price of electricity is the least of your worries - add in
amortorizing the battery cost (and then the conversion cost itself) and you'll
see why folks do it for the challenge, to cut pollution, or for the fun of a
near-silent high-torque takeoff, but *not* just to save their dough!

dose anybody know what the max continues draw could be on these could be .
I'm thinking about them for my lawn mower project and might need 100 amp for
15 min. also would like to fast charge them back, like maybe at 50 amps .

steve clunn



>>>certainly get you dimensions. With the BB600 the only dimension you
>>>really
>>>need to worry about is the height which is approx. 9 1/4 inches, but they
>>>do
>>>require occasional watering so you will need easy access to the tops of
>>>them. Also they are flooded so they need to be used in a vertical
>>>position.
>>>
>>>These people used to sell them, but it's been well over a year since I
>>>last
>>>checked with them. Still you can see a photo and the dimensions.
>>>
>>>http://www.sg-photo.com/nicad_batteries.htm
>>>

Hi Randy,

It can be done.  The biggest issue with using vans as highway EVs is
drag.
While most vans have about the same drag coefficient, you can increase
efficiency by reducing frontal area.  Are you considering an E150
because
you have one?  If not, you might want to consider an Astro, or an older
smaller Econoline from the 60's or 70's.

Tim


On Jul 15, 2005, at 12:46 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:

> From: "Randy Bush" <randy_1@...>
> Date: July 14, 2005 3:40:46 PM PDT
> To: <ev@...>
> Subject: Conversion Van
>
>
> Has anyone converted a Ford E150 van?
> Randy

On 16 Jul 2005 at 19:18, cowtown@... wrote:

> There's little chance you'll spend less overall on an EV than your
> out-of-pocket expenses runnning the original ICE - saving money is not why
> most people do a conversion.

Agreed.

>From time to time we get posts from folks who say something like, "My
beloved old [Chevy/Ford/Whatever] has a dead engine, maybe I should convert
it to electric."  They're thinking it will be cheaper.  There are ways of
doing a conversion on the cheap, but in most cases, it can't beat the cost
of mass-produced aftermarket ICE repair parts.  More to the point, it's not
just pull the engine and bolt in a motor - there's much more to a conversion
than that!

Not saying this is the original poster's intent, but for those who are
looking for a way to keep an old friend on the road - if what you want is
the cheapest possible transportation, get a boneyard engine and drop it in.
You'll be good for another 50,000 miles or so of polluting the air and
burning up imported petroleum (a deliberately provocative statement; ah,
forgive me; so hard to resist! ;-).

But if you want a challenge; you want the smoothest, quietest ride you've
ever had; you want to be able to say you're using no foreign oil (eh,
probably depends on where your power comes from ;-); you want a zero
emissions, highly efficient vehicle - then convert!


David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator

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I think the main problem of a conversion van is that most of its weight
hauling capacity would be taken up by batteries and there would be
little or no capacity left for hauling people and cargo.  What's the point
of having a big van body with little or no hauling capacity?

Randy Wrote:
"It's a1989 Ford E150 so it might be a classic. Tried
getting a kit once but it was around $15K and i
couldn't justify the cost. Need something that will go
45mph top speed with a 80 mile range if possible.
Randy"

Randy,
      I have an electric 1961 Corvair Rampside pickup
that I think is pretty closely related to your van. It
was converted by a high school in AZ in 1997. The
competition they built it for had a limit of 96V. This
wasn't really enough to run the ADC 9" motor
efficiently, but it did run. I bought it last year
with it's abused pack of generic batteries. It was
good for about 25 miles per charge. It could get up to
75mph on a flat stretch of highway (a tail wind
helps).
      I'm currently installing a Zilla controller and
144V US battery pack. I'm hoping for a 100 mile range,
but will be happy with 75, it's not very aerodynamic.
I'm hoping to have it back on the road by next week. I
can't afford to keep gassing my ICE truck.



____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

--- jerry dycus <jerry5335@...> wrote:

>
>       I've always wondered how a Dustbuster style GM
> vans would make as an EV as they are fairly aero and
> with a few small mods be really aero.

what's a Dustbuster??

I too am interested in making an RV that gets good
mileage as that will be the thing of the future.  When
I realized it would cost $1000. just for fuel to cross
the US I gave away my motorhome.

Since I am retiring this year and will therefore have
the time this fall I have decided to drive my Insight,
towing a small teardrop camp trailer, to Florida in
the fall to help build my Freedom EV Glider.  I will
sell or abandon the teadrop in FL and tow the freedom
back.
As time gets neared I would like to plan a route that
goes by as many EV groups or interested individuals as
possible.  If you have an interest and live along the
southern route across the US contact me off list
keith

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

I'm concerned about leaving the Iota DC/DC on during
charging due to the finish voltage of a 144V pack
being pretty close to the upper limit on the input
side of the DC/DC. I went with the Iota DLS-55 55amp
converter. It's going in my '61 corvair that doesn't
have much of a 12V load in it. The headlights and the
wipers is about it. I'm planning on a radio someday,
and an interior light would be nice. I think the
original generator that they came with was 30 amps or
so. I think I'll be OK running the Iota at 14.2V while
I'm running the truck. I guess I'll keep an eye on the
12V house battery to see if it's working out OK. It
has to be better than the 12V loss system the truck
came with.

TiM



____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

----- Original Message -----
From: "keith vansickle" <keithvansickle01@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 9:38 PM
Subject: RE: Dymaxion for hybrid RV , Aero, ground effect and Van conversion


>
>
> --- jerry dycus <jerry5335@...> wrote:
>
>>
>>       I've always wondered how a Dustbuster style GM
>> vans would make as an EV as they are fairly aero and
>> with a few small mods be really aero.
>
> what's a Dustbuster??

A Dustbuster is a small hand-held rechargeable vacuum cleaner.
GM built minivans that looked like Dustbusters from about 1990
through 1996.  They included the Chevrolet Lumina and the
Oldsmobile Silhouette and a Pontiac that I can't recall the name of.

Trans Sport. I wonder what the CD of these mutant things is?

"Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"

Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Shay" <tshay7051@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 10:23 PM
Subject: Re: Dymaxion for hybrid RV , Aero, ground effect and Van conversion


>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "keith vansickle" <keithvansickle01@...>
> To: <ev@...>
> Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 9:38 PM
> Subject: RE: Dymaxion for hybrid RV , Aero, ground effect and Van
> conversion
>
>
>>
>>
>> --- jerry dycus <jerry5335@...> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>       I've always wondered how a Dustbuster style GM
>>> vans would make as an EV as they are fairly aero and
>>> with a few small mods be really aero.
>>
>> what's a Dustbuster??
>
> A Dustbuster is a small hand-held rechargeable vacuum cleaner.
> GM built minivans that looked like Dustbusters from about 1990
> through 1996.  They included the Chevrolet Lumina and the
> Oldsmobile Silhouette and a Pontiac that I can't recall the name of.

I tested mine before I put them on my motorcycle.  I only tested them at a
60 amp draw, but they all lasted for at least 40 minutes giving me 40ahr.
They will do your 100 amps for 15 minutes easily.  You also won't have any
problem fast charging them.  I was at Waylands house one day and we were
pumping in well over 30 amps.

damon

>From: "STEVE CLUNN" <steveclunn@...>
>Reply-To: ev@...
>To: <ev@...>
>Subject: bb600 nicad's Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 21:23:47 -0500
>
>dose anybody know what the max continues draw could be on these could be .
>I'm thinking about them for my lawn mower project and might need 100 amp
>for 15 min. also would like to fast charge them back, like maybe at 50 amps
>.
>
>steve clunn
>
>
>
>>>>certainly get you dimensions. With the BB600 the only dimension you
>>>>really
>>>>need to worry about is the height which is approx. 9 1/4 inches, but
>>>>they do
>>>>require occasional watering so you will need easy access to the tops of
>>>>them. Also they are flooded so they need to be used in a vertical
>>>>position.
>>>>
>>>>These people used to sell them, but it's been well over a year since I
>>>>last
>>>>checked with them. Still you can see a photo and the dimensions.
>>>>
>>>>http://www.sg-photo.com/nicad_batteries.htm
>>>>
>

6 of these will fit in a Lectra for 72v.  I bet a 40 mile freeway range. If
I had 18 of these in my Aspire it'd be over a hundred mile range.  LR.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "damon henry" <damonhenry@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 4:39 PM
Subject: RE: A few NiMH's on eBay


> Wow these look perfect for someone's motorcycle project.   I wonder how
> much they weigh, and how big of current you can pull from them.  I already
> spent my battery money on Nicads, so I won't be buying them, but I'd love
> to have 85ahrs on tap instead of the 40 I now have.
>
> damon
>
>>From: cowtown@...
>>Reply-To: ev@...
>>To: EV Discussion List <ev@...>
>>Subject: A few NiMH's on eBay
>>Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:50:56 -0700
>>
>>Anyone need a 65V/85Ah pack of NiMHs?
>>
>>http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4562636349
>>
>

> > Does anyone have exact
> > knowledge what is the energy balance of a modern solar cell in this
> > context?
>
> Seppo,
>
> When they are building a small number of solar cells in a lab, then the
> time, materials, and energy that goes into them is greater than the
> energy they produce over their life. That doesn't matter; such cells are
> being built for research and development purposes, not power production.
>
> Such cells are very expensive. They get used for satellites, emergency
> power in remote locations, experimental uses like solar race cars, and
> other cost-is-no-object applications.
>
> When they mass-produce solar cells for power production, they are much
> more careful with the time, materials, and energy it takes to make them.
> They will give up 2:1 on efficiency to get a 10:1 cost reduction. This
> is why most of the mass-produced cells are amorphous or polycrystalline
> types -- they are less efficient, but far cheaper. You *do* come out
> ahead with them -- they will produce much more energy over their life
> than it took to make them.
>
> Plus, there are lots of complications that make any simple energy
> balances difficult. For example, Solarex buys defective wafers from the
> semiconductor industry, that would have been used for integrated
> circuits but had some defect. They polish off the old IC patterns, and
> make solar cells out of them. So they are recycling something that would
> have otherwise been useless scrap.
> --
> *BE* the change that you wish to see in the world.
>  -- Mahatma Gandhi
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>

Hello Lee,
thank you for interesting information. I think someone in this thread mentioned
earlier that the pay-back time with recent commercial solar cells is about two
years.

Seppo

Thanks Damon , one more thing , any idea how they would handle the bumping
around which a lawn mower sees .
I picked up another mower like the one I use , with a bad engine , its even
a newer model , and I have a 8" motor and 72v altrax controller , Here is a
picture of the mower 10 years ago with my first ev .
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/247b.jpg   I am going through allot of the
same thinking presses I did when I did my first EV
1 got a donor that was cheep , now if it works I'll have lots of odds and
ends to fix that I wouldn't if I spent 10 times the money and gotten
something in better shape.
2 I depend on it for my job , can't be working with a "science project" .
3 What batteries will be right for the job.

same kind of stuff people do with there first car conversion.


1 some of the things I have going for me are that both the blades and the
hydro's ( which drive and steer the mower)  are driven form pulleys on the
motor . I can change the size if I need to run the motor at different rpms.
2 I can justify spending the money as a business expense.
3 I don't think that most of the time the gas engine is having its 20 horses
worked so it may not use as much power as I;m thinking .  .

steve clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: "damon henry" <damonhenry@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2005 12:38 AM
Subject: RE: bb600 nicad's


>I tested mine before I put them on my motorcycle.  I only tested them at a
>60 amp draw, but they all lasted for at least 40 minutes giving me 40ahr.
>They will do your 100 amps for 15 minutes easily.  You also won't have any
>problem fast charging them.  I was at Waylands house one day and we were
>pumping in well over 30 amps.
>
> damon
>
>>From: "STEVE CLUNN" <steveclunn@...>
>>Reply-To: ev@...
>>To: <ev@...>
>>Subject: bb600 nicad's Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 21:23:47 -0500
>>
>>dose anybody know what the max continues draw could be on these could be .
>>I'm thinking about them for my lawn mower project and might need 100 amp
>>for 15 min. also would like to fast charge them back, like maybe at 50
>>amps .
>>
>>steve clunn
>>
>>
>>
>>>>>certainly get you dimensions. With the BB600 the only dimension you
>>>>>really
>>>>>need to worry about is the height which is approx. 9 1/4 inches, but
>>>>>they do
>>>>>require occasional watering so you will need easy access to the tops of
>>>>>them. Also they are flooded so they need to be used in a vertical
>>>>>position.
>>>>>
>>>>>These people used to sell them, but it's been well over a year since I
>>>>>last
>>>>>checked with them. Still you can see a photo and the dimensions.
>>>>>
>>>>>http://www.sg-photo.com/nicad_batteries.htm
>>>>>
>>
>
>

Dave wrote:

>Trans Sport. I wonder what the CD of these mutant things
is?

I remember trying to find that figure on google and came to
an email list where someone claimed it was .30, comparing
the Cd of the Lumina van to the Corvette of the time.

There is a lot of room for improvement. I don't think it's
at all out of the realm of possibility to get that figure
down to the .25 level.

These seem to be the standard NIMH batteries used in EV1 and Toyota RAV4.
Anybody have BMS for these batteries?

Hi Stu and All,

--- Stu or Jan <stu@...> wrote:

> http://www.ar-5.com/kitcarm93.html
>
>
>
> Here's one for you Jerry.

     I know of that one well and it and others like it
is where I get about 1/2 of my aero and composite
knowledge.
     Both these are changing the face of aviation and I
feel should in cars, EV's too.
     And don't forget, he is losing about 50-60% of his
power to propeller air friction!! So only using 30
actual hp to move through the air!!
                     HTH's,
                       Jerry Dycus

>
>
>
> BoyntonStu
>
>




____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

I have a Iota 30 on my 150v work truck and leave it on when the charger is
on , I did have a problem one time when an extension cord melted and blow
out so I really need to do something also. . You could set it up with a 160
v zenor ( put a munch together in series ) and an N. C . relay ( when
voltage gets high form charging and zenors start passing current to relay ,
relay closes which shuts off power to dc/dc )  that would disconnect it when
the voltage gets over 160 ( or where ever you set it for.) then when charger
shuts of and voltage drops , your dc /dc would come back on . there would be
lots of ways to set up the relay,
steve clunn ,
----- Original Message -----
From: "TiM M" <mr_tim34@...>
To: "EV-List-Post" <ev@...>
Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 11:40 PM
Subject: Re: DC/DC


> I'm concerned about leaving the Iota DC/DC on during
> charging due to the finish voltage of a 144V pack
> being pretty close to the upper limit on the input
> side of the DC/DC. I went with the Iota DLS-55 55amp
> converter. It's going in my '61 corvair that doesn't
> have much of a 12V load in it. The headlights and the
> wipers is about it. I'm planning on a radio someday,
> and an interior light would be nice. I think the
> original generator that they came with was 30 amps or
> so. I think I'll be OK running the Iota at 14.2V while
> I'm running the truck. I guess I'll keep an eye on the
> 12V house battery to see if it's working out OK. It
> has to be better than the 12V loss system the truck
> came with.
>
> TiM
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________
> Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
>
>
>

Hi folks,
  I believe these are  Texico Ovonics they were used in the NiMh version
of the EV1 and the GM S10, offered as an expensive option. They almost
gave NiMh a bad name due to thermal issues, as the formula was a little
different than the successful Panasonic 95 ah used in the Rav 4. Keep
them cool and good luck.
          Bill Brinsmead

Steve,
This is an apple to oranges comparison, however it
might give another perspective into EV mower power
usage.  Check this out;
http://www.jacobsengolf.com/products/riding_greens_mowers/e-plex_ii/
I tested one of these on a Lincoln, NE golfcoarse on a
cold spring day with 40 MPH wind gusts.  I'm guessing
the batteries were at 15 degrees C sitting in the
garage.
It used 6, 8 volt Trojan deep cycle golf cart
batteries, a GE sepex motor and 300Amp control, and 3
BLDC motors/controls for the reel mowers.
All 18 greens on rolling hills were mowed and we had
plenty of juice when finished.  Sorry, I don't know
the state of charge when finished.
Good luck with the conversion!
Rod

--- STEVE CLUNN <steveclunn@...> wrote:

> Thanks Damon , one more thing , any idea how they
> would handle the bumping
> around which a lawn mower sees .
> I picked up another mower like the one I use , with
> a bad engine , its even
> a newer model , and I have a 8" motor and 72v altrax
> controller , Here is a
> picture of the mower 10 years ago with my first ev .
>
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/247b.jpg   I am
> going through allot of the
> same thinking presses I did when I did my first EV
> 1 got a donor that was cheep , now if it works I'll
> have lots of odds and
> ends to fix that I wouldn't if I spent 10 times the
> money and gotten
> something in better shape.
> 2 I depend on it for my job , can't be working with
> a "science project" .
> 3 What batteries will be right for the job.
>
> same kind of stuff people do with there first car
> conversion.
>
>
> 1 some of the things I have going for me are that
> both the blades and the
> hydro's ( which drive and steer the mower)  are
> driven form pulleys on the
> motor . I can change the size if I need to run the
> motor at different rpms.
> 2 I can justify spending the money as a business
> expense.
> 3 I don't think that most of the time the gas engine
> is having its 20 horses
> worked so it may not use as much power as I;m
> thinking .  .
>
> steve clunn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "damon henry" <damonhenry@...>
> To: <ev@...>
> Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2005 12:38 AM
> Subject: RE: bb600 nicad's
>
>
> >I tested mine before I put them on my motorcycle.
> I only tested them at a
> >60 amp draw, but they all lasted for at least 40
> minutes giving me 40ahr.
> >They will do your 100 amps for 15 minutes easily.
> You also won't have any
> >problem fast charging them.  I was at Waylands
> house one day and we were
> >pumping in well over 30 amps.
> >
> > damon
> >
> >>From: "STEVE CLUNN" <steveclunn@...>
> >>Reply-To: ev@...
> >>To: <ev@...>
> >>Subject: bb600 nicad's Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005
> 21:23:47 -0500
> >>
> >>dose anybody know what the max continues draw
> could be on these could be .
> >>I'm thinking about them for my lawn mower project
> and might need 100 amp
> >>for 15 min. also would like to fast charge them
> back, like maybe at 50
> >>amps .
> >>
> >>steve clunn
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>>>certainly get you dimensions. With the BB600
> the only dimension you
> >>>>>really
> >>>>>need to worry about is the height which is
> approx. 9 1/4 inches, but
> >>>>>they do
> >>>>>require occasional watering so you will need
> easy access to the tops of
> >>>>>them. Also they are flooded so they need to be
> used in a vertical
> >>>>>position.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>These people used to sell them, but it's been
> well over a year since I
> >>>>>last
> >>>>>checked with them. Still you can see a photo
> and the dimensions.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>http://www.sg-photo.com/nicad_batteries.htm
> >>>>>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>

Trojan literature mentions the J150 as a simular footprint and more powerful
replacement for the 5SHP.  They are mentioned along with the T105 as a Floor
Machine battery.  How do these 12v units hold up?  I've heard not as good as
a T-105.  Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 5:32 PM
Subject: Fw: Interstate U1450 vs. Trojan 5SHP.


>      5SHP 275 - 78 400 490 135 165 12 AP 13 5/8 (346) 6 3/4 (171) 11 3/8
> (289) 86 (39)
> 5Shp  Three more amp hour.  Not as tall and one pound less weight.  How do
> these batteries hold up in EV use?  LR.....
>
>> I'm working on a converted Mayflower(small British car that looks like a
>> Bently)  It weighs around 2000 pounds unconverted.  The Interstate
>> batteries didn't work out that well.  They are being taken out now.  I do
>> suspect undercharging.  The rear batteries were bulging from sulfation.
>> What would be a good Trojan replacement or are the Interstate good
>> batteries.  I haven't heard they were.  However at 1000 pounds in weight
>> they are a good size to get 120v in a small car with a savings of 400
>> pounds.  I need a Trojan with the same footprint and amphour and haven't
>> found it yet.
>> Lawrence Rhodes
>> Bassoon/Contrabassoon
>> Reedmaker
>> Book 4/5 doubler
>> Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
>> bassoon@...
>> 415-821-3519
>

I have 40 of them in my Sears Craftsman Garden tractor
with a hydrostatic transmission. Yes I have only done
two mowing with it but they seem to work great with
the ETEK that is running them. I only briefly see 100
amps most of the mowing is at 65 amps. The 100 amps
was 10 inch high thick grass and I was going slowly
through it to mulch it up good going any faster was
about 90 amps but left clumps.
It may just be the EVness that is getting to me but I
have to say it is a whole lot better mower then it was
before mulching much cleaner and going up hills
faster.  I'm going to try dropping to 36, 42 or even
43.2 (4 9 cell packs) volts for the next mow because
48 volts actually seems like too much.
Since the motor always goes one speed it still seems a
waste of money to do a controller since I am using a
PM motor.

--- damon henry <damonhenry@...> wrote:

> I tested mine before I put them on my motorcycle.  I
> only tested them at a
> 60 amp draw, but they all lasted for at least 40
> minutes giving me 40ahr.
> They will do your 100 amps for 15 minutes easily.
> You also won't have any
> problem fast charging them.  I was at Waylands house
> one day and we were
> pumping in well over 30 amps.
>
> damon
>
> >From: "STEVE CLUNN" <steveclunn@...>
> >Reply-To: ev@...
> >To: <ev@...>
> >Subject: bb600 nicad's Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005
> 21:23:47 -0500
> >
> >dose anybody know what the max continues draw could
> be on these could be .
> >I'm thinking about them for my lawn mower project
> and might need 100 amp
> >for 15 min. also would like to fast charge them
> back, like maybe at 50 amps
> >.
> >
> >steve clunn
> >
> >
> >
> >>>>certainly get you dimensions. With the BB600 the
> only dimension you
> >>>>really
> >>>>need to worry about is the height which is
> approx. 9 1/4 inches, but
> >>>>they do
> >>>>require occasional watering so you will need
> easy access to the tops of
> >>>>them. Also they are flooded so they need to be
> used in a vertical
> >>>>position.
> >>>>
> >>>>These people used to sell them, but it's been
> well over a year since I
> >>>>last
> >>>>checked with them. Still you can see a photo and
> the dimensions.
> >>>>
> >>>>http://www.sg-photo.com/nicad_batteries.htm
> >>>>
> >
>
>

EV-145 is also a candidate.  So far Interstate U-1450, Trojan 5HSP, US
EV-145 or Trojan J150 I think.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Shay" <tshay7051@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 9:25 PM
Subject: Re: Conversion Van


>I think the main problem of a conversion van is that most of its weight
> hauling capacity would be taken up by batteries and there would be
> little or no capacity left for hauling people and cargo.  What's the point
> of having a big van body with little or no hauling capacity?

Its obvious.... the hauling/space/cargo capacity is used. It is being filled
with batteries so the function of the vehicle is being performed. It's just not
being used in the 'traditional' way, which requires a sort of paradigm shift of
thinking....

I think there is a figure that someone has published based on studies done that
show that 90% of the cars/vans/trucks driven have one occupant, the driver, and
are not loaded in any way.

I'm lucky enough (or unlucky enough when I go to the pump and fill up my 80 gal
tanks) to have a F-250 diesel so if I need a vehicle to haul/load I can. But my
main vehicle will be my S-10 with 30 T-125's that will get me a round trip to
Tucson (70 miles). I've also decided that I will sacrifice the bed of the S-10
and put the batteries directly on the frame back there with a much smaller
custom made cargo area. The Bed weights about 250 lbs and the 'new' bed will
weight much less. I can also cut off a foot of the length by removing the last
foot of the body frame that will not be used since the original bed will be
removed.

Since all the batteries will be mid frame that leaves the engine compartment
available for electronics only.

Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org

----- Original Message -----
From: "TiM M"


> Randy,
>     I have an electric 1961 Corvair Rampside pickup
> that I think is pretty closely related to your van. It
> was converted by a high school in AZ in 1997. The
> competition they built it for had a limit of 96V. This
> wasn't really enough to run the ADC 9" motor
> efficiently, but it did run. I bought it last year
> with it's abused pack of generic batteries. It was
> good for about 25 miles per charge. It could get up to
> 75mph on a flat stretch of highway (a tail wind
> helps).
>     I'm currently installing a Zilla controller and
> 144V US battery pack. I'm hoping for a 100 mile range,
> but will be happy with 75, it's not very aerodynamic.
> I'm hoping to have it back on the road by next week. I
> can't afford to keep gassing my ICE truck.
>

Hi Tim

Changing the thread from 'conversion van'...

I'm converting a S-10 and will be using 30 Trojan T-125's in the rear. I'm
removing the bed and will make a custom bed/battery holder. I'll be using a
Zilla with a 9" ADC motor. I figure that I'll get about 85 miles if I use 300
with per mile. I'm also thinking of getting a battery watering system if I can
get one for a good price. Watering 30 bats seems like it would be a drag

I did some spreadsheets on the 105's, 125's and 145's and the 125 comes out as
the most efficient for wts per lb. I've also been able to get a real good price,
$58 with core, for the 125.

Where are you located? A friend and I want to start an EV group here in Tucson
for trouble shooting, meeting for 'workshops' etc.

Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org

Hello,

What contactors should I use for a 180 V system? Where can I get them? I want 2,
one for the key switch and another for my Zilla. One will be on the neg path
(key) and the other on the pos path (Zilla?) of the bat pack. Amp wise I am not
sure what it should be.

Will a Kilovac Cozonka lll, EV-200 work for me? It has 250 amps continuous. My
battery pack will be 30 Trojan T-125's.

Thanks for the help.

Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org

http://www.craigslist.org/sby/car/83361097.html

Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: CWater@...   Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water    IM: cor_van_de_water@...
Tel:   +1 408 731 2746     VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax:   +1 408 731 3673     eFAX: +31-84-717-9972
Proxim Wireless Networks   eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further  http://www.proxim.com

Lead has been around and used for a long time.  NiCad has always been
lurking in the background, but never dominate.  Is Lithium always
going to be this way too?

Hi Ryan, Randy and All,

--- Ryan Stotts <stotts.ryan@...> wrote:

> Randy wrote:
>
> > Well the money is there and think it would be lots
> of fun to do but only if
> > its a significant cost savings over gasoline
> power.

      While you will have to be thoughtful about it, it
can be done even at today's gas prices.
       But first you need to select a better
body/chassis than a large Ford Van.
       One of the Dustbuster ones mentioned already or
other of the Mini vans would be much better.
       There are already some made, the Chrslyer T Van
EV built on a Caravan body can be found for sale
regularly on the internet may be good for you.


>
> No more gasoline purchases..  If fuel goes up to $3
> or $4 a gallon, or
> there is an out right shortage..  you'll be out
> driving while everyone
> else is walking, riding a bike, or waiting on the
> bus...
>

>
> Check out this long range EV:
>
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/037.html
>
>
> Take a look at these various controllers, motors,
> and chargers:
>
> http://www.evsource.com/top_line_shop.php
>
> Do you want flooded lead acid batteries that you
> will have to check
> their water level and refill when low?  Or no
> maintenance batteries?

   Only floodeds will give you the costs you seek. AGM
batts over 10 yrs cost more than Ni Cads!!


>
>
> This is the lowest cost maintenance free battery
> I've been able to find so far:
>
>
http://www.remybattery.com/350/shopexd.asp?id=5448&catid=342&cat=Deka+INTIMIDATO\
R&subcat=474&L2=&L3=
>
> Anyone know about how many of those batteries he'd
> need for 80 mile range?

    Depends on the vehicle but generally on a good EV,
about 50% of the vehicles weight in lead batts of the
flooded type.


>
> For now, go with 348 volts worth(29 bats).

    Costly and unnessasary. Stick with 120-144vdc.


>
> Pick out a motor, controller, and charger.  How much
> total?
>
> 29 of those bats at $89 each = $2581
      That probably won't do his range requirements.
      24 T125's $1440


> Zilla 1k = $2825

      Several others around $1k


> PFC20 = $2500

        Several at under $1k


> 9" WarP= $1465

      Others much cheaper.


> 12v DC/DC= $280  (

      12vdc battery charger  $40

       About $6k depending on how you want to go.
       At 10k mile/yr, it will take you about 2.5 yrs
to recoupe your cost by gas savings that doesn't
include maintaince savings you get with EV's vs CE's
and the price of gas is sure to go above $2.50/gal.
       You also get a 10% fed tax credit and your state
may have other credits.
       You also save a lot in no car payments over
about 10 yrs with just small maintaince and batt
replacement every 20k miles or so.

       If I was going to do it, I'd go for a Dustbuster
van
       22 t125's          $1220
  Contactor Controller      300
  Forklift, surplus Motor   300
  own built chargers        100
  Misc                     1000
                          $2920
        This could be paid back in 18months or less in
gas costs.
        Though depending on the actual use it will do,
I'd go for an EV based on a small pickup frame, cab.

        So as you can see, there are different ways to
do this.
                     HTH's,
                        Jerry Dycus

> http://www.powerstream.com/DC-HV.htm )
>
> Total so far = $9,651
>
> Cable, battery racks, gauges.. some other
> incidentals..
>
> If you go with batteries that need to be watered,
> they might cost half
> as much.  There are other motors, controllers, and
> chargers available
> at lower cost too...
>
> Gonna do it?
>
>




____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

Ryan Stotts wrote:
> Lead has been around and used for a long time.  NiCad has always been
> lurking in the background, but never dominate.  Is Lithium always going
> to be this way too?

Lead-acid is still the most widely used rechargeable battery because it is
cheap, easily recycled, and "good enough" for most applications. It is likely to
maintain this position for a long time to come. The only thing I see interfering
would be an irrational political reaction to ban lead, like we have done for
asbestos, mercury, DDT, PCBs, and other chemicals.

Nicads have been around a long time, too. But they are fundamentally more
expensive, and so have only dominated in small sizes where cost is less of an
issue than convenience and their greater energy density. Sealed nicads are the
easiest-to-use rechargeables we have, though flooded nicads need even more
maintenance than flooded lead-acids. The big problem with nicads is that we have
ignored recycling, and allowed them to be treated as throw-aways. Cadmium is
very toxic, so the only way nicads have a future is if we insist on strict
recycling (as we do for lead-acid).

Lithium based batteries are very interesting, but still undergoing rapid
development. They are expensive, and have lots of unanswered life, safety, and
recycling questions. The devil is in the details.

Hi Keith, John and All,

--- keith vansickle <keithvansickle01@...>
wrote:

>
>
> --- jerry dycus <jerry5335@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >       I've always wondered how a Dustbuster style
> GM
> > vans would make as an EV as they are fairly aero
> and
> > with a few small mods be really aero.
>
> what's a Dustbuster??

      John, I think that they could lower their CD
nicely from their stock .30CD
      They weigh about 3400 and stripped of their ICE
and other unneassary stuff, down to about 2600lbs. Not
a bad weight fr it's size and with it's good aero
could make them good EV's.


>
> I too am interested in making an RV that gets good
> mileage as that will be the thing of the future.
> When
> I realized it would cost $1000. just for fuel to
> cross
> the US I gave away my motorhome.

      It's both bad aero and too much weight that
hampers RV's but both are easy to fix if starting from
scratch.
      And the Dymaxion is a great starting point for
it!! And in Fla it's still considered a MC!!!


>
> Since I am retiring this year and will therefore
> have
> the time this fall I have decided to drive my
> Insight,
> towing a small teardrop camp trailer, to Florida in
> the fall to help build my Freedom EV Glider.  I will
> sell or abandon the teadrop in FL and tow the
> freedom
> back.

     As the Freedom EV glider will only weigh 500lbs or
less, you could just build a quick and dirty plywood
trailer camper.
     Then put the Freedom Ev on the trailer or make it
so the camper fits over it. Though the Freedom being
very aero, would be good by itself and save the weight
driving back.
     And you can set up the Freedom to sleep in it!!
                  Thanks,
                      Jerry Dycus

> As time gets neared I would like to plan a route
> that
> goes by as many EV groups or interested individuals
> as
> possible.  If you have an interest and live along
> the
> southern route across the US contact me off list
> keith
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>




__________________________________
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EV Digest 4507

Topics covered in this issue include:

   1) A few NiMH's on eBay
	 by cowtown@...
   2) RE: A few NiMH's on eBay
	 by "damon henry" <damonhenry@...>
   3) Re: Singer project car. Looks very light.
	 by "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
   4) Interstate  U1450
	 by "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
   5) Fw: Interstate  U1450 vs. Trojan 5SHP.
	 by "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
   6) Seeking Used 132V Charger
	 by Electro Automotive <electro@...>
   7) Battery fill system
	 by Rush <Rush@...>
   8) Re: Battery fill system
	 by "Christopher Robison" <eeyore@...>
   9) Re: Air conditioner etc
	 by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
  10) Re: Battery fill system
	 by Rush <Rush@...>
  11) Re: Battery fill system
	 by Rush <Rush@...>
  12) Re: Solar cell energy balance
	 by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
  13) more water systems
	 by Rush <Rush@...>
  14) Van (possible NEV?) on eBay
	 by cowtown@...
  15) RE: A few NiMH's on eBay
	 by cowtown@...
  16) Re: Conversion Van
	 by "Randy Bush" <randy_1@...>
  17) Re: Conversion Van
	 by <randy_1@...>
  18) Re: Battery fill system
	 by "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
  19) Re: OT watch the acronyms!
	 by "Joe Strubhar" <joe@...>
  20) Cheap Batteries?(This is in Florida)Better than Optima?
	 by "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
  21) Re: Cheap Batteries?(This is in Florida)Better than Optima?
	 by jerry dycus <jerry5335@...>
  22) Some new motor and controller products with prices
	 by Ryan Stotts <stotts.ryan@...>
  23) Re: Some new ... products
	 by cowtown@...
  24) Looking for sub 3k electric utility vehicle.
	 by "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
  25) Smart Charger
	 by "Sharon Hoopes" <slh4@...>
  26) Re: Cheap Batteries?(This is in Florida)Better than Optima?
	 by cowtown@...
  27) Re: Conversion Van
	 by cowtown@...
  28) Rav4 EV for sale in San Jose
	 by "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
  29) 4 wheeler front end and swing axle idea.
	 by "Stu or Jan" <stu@...>
  30) WANTED:  '02 (or newer) GEM Longbed Utility - San Francisco Bay Area
	 by "J Mac" <jmac300@...>
  31) Re: DC/DC
	 by Nick Viera <jeepev@...>
  32) Re: Conversion Van
	 by <randy_1@...>
  33) RE: Dymaxion for hybrid RV , Aero, ground effect and  Van conversion
	 by jerry dycus <jerry5335@...>
  34) Re: DC/DC
	 by Ryan Stotts <stotts.ryan@...>
  35) Re: DC/DC
	 by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
  36) 65 hp almost 215 mph
	 by "Stu or Jan" <stu@...>
  37) Re: Conversion Van
	 by Ryan Stotts <stotts.ryan@...>

Anyone need a 65V/85Ah pack of NiMHs?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4562636349

Wow these look perfect for someone's motorcycle project.   I wonder how much
they weigh, and how big of current you can pull from them.  I already spent
my battery money on Nicads, so I won't be buying them, but I'd love to have
85ahrs on tap instead of the 40 I now have.

damon

>From: cowtown@...
>Reply-To: ev@...
>To: EV Discussion List <ev@...>
>Subject: A few NiMH's on eBay
>Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:50:56 -0700
>
>Anyone need a 65V/85Ah pack of NiMHs?
>
>http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4562636349
>

Yes I guess that's why GM and other big auto makers don't want to make
electrics.  They think of them as washing machines.  In my family we had a
tredel sewing machine which I think is still in use.  Put downs by teenage
boys doesn't bother me a bit.  Dependability is more important to me.  We
should compliment dependability and durability.  Feminizing & derision is
for stupid male egos.  LR......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Watson" <palomineo@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 4:37 PM
Subject: Re: Singer project car. Looks very light.


> Dear Lawrence
> But with a name like Singer, you would run the risk of
> having people insulting your car by saying it sounds
> like a sewing machine...
> http://www.singerco.com/products/
> that used to be the ultimate putdown for motor bikes
> around here!
>
> 1st,2nd,3rd
> zzzzzzzt,...zzzzzzzt,...zzzzzzt
>
> Tom
> ------snip------
> Subject: Singer project car. Looks very light.
>
> This car would make a great EV.  LR.........In Oakland
> CA
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4561012932&categor\
y=6314&ssPageName=WDVW&rd=1
> Lawrence Rhodes
> Bassoon/Contrabassoon
> Reedmaker
> Book 4/5 doubler
> Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
> bassoon@...
> 415-821-3519
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>

I'm working on a converted Mayflower(small British car that looks like a
Bently)  It weighs around 2000 pounds unconverted.  The Interstate batteries
didn't work out that well.  They are being taken out now.  I do suspect
undercharging.  The rear batteries were bulging from sulfation.  What would
be a good Trojan replacement or are the Interstate good batteries.  I
haven't heard they were.  However at 1000 pounds in weight they are a good
size to get 120v in a small car with a savings of 400 pounds.  I need a
Trojan with the same footprint and amphour and haven't found it yet.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
bassoon@...
415-821-3519

5SHP 275 - 78 400 490 135 165 12 AP 13 5/8 (346) 6 3/4 (171) 11 3/8
(289) 86 (39)
5Shp  Three more amp hour.  Not as tall and one pound less weight.  How do
these batteries hold up in EV use?  LR.....

> I'm working on a converted Mayflower(small British car that looks like a
> Bently)  It weighs around 2000 pounds unconverted.  The Interstate
> batteries didn't work out that well.  They are being taken out now.  I do
> suspect undercharging.  The rear batteries were bulging from sulfation.
> What would be a good Trojan replacement or are the Interstate good
> batteries.  I haven't heard they were.  However at 1000 pounds in weight
> they are a good size to get 120v in a small car with a savings of 400
> pounds.  I need a Trojan with the same footprint and amphour and haven't
> found it yet.
> Lawrence Rhodes
> Bassoon/Contrabassoon
> Reedmaker
> Book 4/5 doubler
> Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
> bassoon@...
> 415-821-3519

This is for someone not on the list.  Please respond directly to Bill
Hoopes at slh4@....  He has a 914 Porsche with 22 flooded 6V
batteries.  He didn't specify 110V or 220V input.  He wants a "smart"
charger to automatically taper and shut-off, but he is looking for a used
unit, not new.

Mike Brown
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com electro@...
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979

Found a battery filling system
http://batteryfillingsystems.com/

I'm writing them to see how much a system for 30 trojan t-125's would cost.

Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org

These look similar to the Rover & Rover caps, made in Germany:

http://www.aquapro.net/

Here's a link to an EV that uses it:

http://www.canev.com/Conversions/Echo/Echo.html

Missing from Battery Filling System's selection are the really cool
connectors that the Aquapro system offers, which enable you to just plug
in and see visibly when the water flow shuts off.

Let us know what the prices end up being.  I think I recall from when I
wrote to them a few months back, in large quantities the Aquapro caps end
up being about USD $10-$12 apiece.

   --chris




Rush said:
> Found a battery filling system
> http://batteryfillingsystems.com/
>
> I'm writing them to see how much a system for 30 trojan t-125's would
> cost.
>
> Rush
> Tucson AZ
> www.ironandwood.org
>
>

Christopher Robison wrote:
> It's a typical permanent magnet DC treadmill motor, just wound for a
> higher voltage than the usual 90-130VDC:

If it's built for 260vdc, it will be just fine at 348vdc. You can run it
straight off the pack voltage. It will run proportionately faster, but
draw proportionately less current for the same horsepower.

Your main problem will be getting the motor started. You can't just
switch it straight across the pack, or you'd get a horrendous starting
current and a violent lurch as it tries to come up to speed instantly.

I'd use a simple 2-step starter. Start it with a resistor in series that
limits the current to 10-20 amps. After a second or two the motor should
be almost up to speed; so then close a second contactor that shorts the
resistor for full power running.
--
*BE* the change that you wish to see in the world.
	 -- Mahatma Gandhi
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

I got the site from the new issue of HomePower. The story is Power Tower, they
were used on a battery bank consisting of 16 6V Interstate batteries and cost
$775, so 775 / (16*3) = about $16 per cap retail. Maybe cheaper direct...

By the way there is also a good article by Shari Prange about the Pirus +

HomePower is a great Mag that really promotes all aspects of Renewable Energy
and gives lots of very good how to do it articles. It would be great if somebody
would do the same for EV's.

Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org


----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Robison" <eeyore@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 10:05 PM
Subject: Re: Battery fill system


> These look similar to the Rover & Rover caps, made in Germany:
>
> http://www.aquapro.net/
>
> Here's a link to an EV that uses it:
>
> http://www.canev.com/Conversions/Echo/Echo.html
>
> Missing from Battery Filling System's selection are the really cool
> connectors that the Aquapro system offers, which enable you to just plug
> in and see visibly when the water flow shuts off.
>
> Let us know what the prices end up being.  I think I recall from when I
> wrote to them a few months back, in large quantities the Aquapro caps end
> up being about USD $10-$12 apiece.
>
>  --chris
>
>
>
>
> Rush said:
>> Found a battery filling system
>> http://batteryfillingsystems.com/
>>
>> I'm writing them to see how much a system for 30 trojan t-125's would
>> cost.
>>
>> Rush
>> Tucson AZ
>> www.ironandwood.org
>>
>>
>
>
>

Woops meant to put in -

look on p 11 and you'll see a flow indicator. I guess when it stops turning it
means that the flow is stopped and the batteries are full.

> Missing from Battery Filling System's selection are the really cool
> connectors that the Aquapro system offers, which enable you to just plug
> in and see visibly when the water flow shuts off.


Rush

Seppo Lindborg wrote:
> One friend of mine, a physicist, once commented on solar cells:
> 'When manufacturing a solar cell, one uses more energy than that
> cell is ever going to produce during its life-time.' He was working
> on that field, so very likely the comment was true, but this
> discussion was more than ten years ago.
>
> Solar cells have developed thereafter a lot. Does anyone have exact
> knowledge what is the energy balance of a modern solar cell in this
> context?

Seppo,

The energy balance question is a matter of telling lies with statistics.
This argument is used to confuse and mislead people.

When they are building a small number of solar cells in a lab, then the
time, materials, and energy that goes into them is greater than the
energy they produce over their life. That doesn't matter; such cells are
being built for research and development purposes, not power production.

Such cells are very expensive. They get used for satellites, emergency
power in remote locations, experimental uses like solar race cars, and
other cost-is-no-object applications.

When they mass-produce solar cells for power production, they are much
more careful with the time, materials, and energy it takes to make them.
They will give up 2:1 on efficiency to get a 10:1 cost reduction. This
is why most of the mass-produced cells are amorphous or polycrystalline
types -- they are less efficient, but far cheaper. You *do* come out
ahead with them -- they will produce much more energy over their life
than it took to make them.

Plus, there are lots of complications that make any simple energy
balances difficult. For example, Solarex buys defective wafers from the
semiconductor industry, that would have been used for integrated
circuits but had some defect. They polish off the old IC patterns, and
make solar cells out of them. So they are recycling something that would
have otherwise been useless scrap.
--
*BE* the change that you wish to see in the world.
	 -- Mahatma Gandhi
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

Well, pickle me in juice...

I just finished HomePower and just a few pages after the Power Tower article is
one by Ian Woofenden (part of the HP staff) about Flow-Rite Pro-Fill battery
filling system.

He says it is good except for no hydrometer access. Cost is $140 for 12 cells,
or $11.66 per cell. So for a 6 V trojan it would add 35 per battery. Or $1050
for my 30 batteries, pretty expensive....


Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org

Is there any legal reason an electric delivery van with a 20mph top speed
couldn't be licensed as an NEV? Might want to "tinker it up" to 25-28mph,
though.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&&item=4562657238

> Wow these look perfect for someone's motorcycle project.   I wonder how much
> they weigh, and how big of current you can pull from them.  I already spent
> my battery money on Nicads, so I won't be buying them, but I'd love to have
> 85ahrs on tap instead of the 40 I now have.
>
> damon
>

Here's the dimension description on these items:

"They are 13.2 Volt Nickel Metel Hydride 85 Amp Hour batteries measuring 16
inches long by 4 inches wide by 7 inches high. I was told they will require
temprature sensing and thermal management for full charging capabilities. If
you do not understand CC/CV and Float these batteries are not for you. :) They
weigh in at approx 43 lbs each and you must arrange and pay for shipping."

A 215# pack, 16"x20"x7", 66V/85Ah - yeah, that would make a sweet MC project!

Its a1989 Ford E150 so it might be a classic. Tried getting a kit once but
it was around $15K and i couldnt justify the cost. Need something that wil
go 45mph top speed with a 80 mile range if possible.
Randy

----- Original Message -----
From: <cowtown@...>
To: "EV Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 6:34 PM
Subject: Re: Conversion Van


> <<< Has anyone converted a Ford E150 van?
> Randy >>>
>
> Someone was talking about a classic van conversion on the list a few
months ago,
> but no updates since then. Is yours a new van or a really old one (i.e. -
a
> "classic")? One thing about the old ones is the much lower empty weight.
>

Liked the Aerostar conversion on your website. Our van us used for
deleveries so most of the cargo is needed.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <stotts.ryan@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 6:33 PM
Subject: Re: Conversion Van


> Randy Bush wrote:
>
> > Has anyone converted a Ford E150 van?
>
> I've never seen one converted.  Though it would make for an easy
> conversion since there is plenty of space for the batteries.  Not to
> mention, a real frame to work with vs's unibody construction...
>
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/ford.html
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rush" <Rush@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 1:16 AM
Subject: Re: Battery fill system


> I got the site from the new issue of HomePower. The story is Power Tower,
they were used on a battery bank consisting of 16 6V Interstate batteries
and cost $775, so 775 / (16*3) = about $16 per cap retail. Maybe cheaper
direct...
>
> By the way there is also a good article by Shari Prange about the Pirus +
>
> HomePower is a great Mag that really promotes all aspects of Renewable
Energy and gives lots of very good how to do it articles. It would be great
if somebody would do the same for EV's.
>   Hi Rush an' All;

    HP has a lotta good stuff, they EVen try to get into EV stuff, although
they may be a bit dated. But we can fix that! An attempt was made a few
years ago with "Electric Car" magazine. Remember that, you older timers? I
thought they did a good job, articles, including stuff on John Wayland's
Racing. I subscribed, still waiting for volume two, sigh! It died after one
nice slick issue, it would go better on a news-stand, somebody casually
looking for a read, on a long train or plain flight. With tons of mags  on a
newsstand, I think there could be room, along with Soap opera News,
Wrestling, People, Slime, I mean TIME !And a plethura of stuff that I
wouldn't take if they handed it to me if I were walking by.Gees! Look at all
the VW stuff ya can get!

     Maybe as EV's become more mainstream? Somebody could, would publish a
national mag. The List could be a great resourse.The Good Folks at Home
Power could start an EV mag, they have the distribution system in place, for
HP already.

    Just some random early morning thoughts.

     Seeya

     Bob

I agree with your post, Bob; but don't use the "HP" acronym for HomePower
mag. HP is Hewlett-Packard's designation, and just confuses people. Like
using the acronym "EAA" for Electric Automobile Association - EAA stands for
Experimental Aircraft Association, and has for more years than the Electric
Automobile Association has been around!

Joseph H. Strubhar

E-Mail: joe@...

Web: www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 6:05 AM
Subject: Re: Battery fill system


>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rush" <Rush@...>
> To: <ev@...>
> Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 1:16 AM
> Subject: Re: Battery fill system
>
>
> > I got the site from the new issue of HomePower. The story is Power
Tower,
> they were used on a battery bank consisting of 16 6V Interstate batteries
> and cost $775, so 775 / (16*3) = about $16 per cap retail. Maybe cheaper
> direct...
> >
> > By the way there is also a good article by Shari Prange about the Pirus
+
> >
> > HomePower is a great Mag that really promotes all aspects of Renewable
> Energy and gives lots of very good how to do it articles. It would be
great
> if somebody would do the same for EV's.
> >   Hi Rush an' All;
>
>    HP has a lotta good stuff, they EVen try to get into EV stuff, although
> they may be a bit dated. But we can fix that! An attempt was made a few
> years ago with "Electric Car" magazine. Remember that, you older timers? I
> thought they did a good job, articles, including stuff on John Wayland's
> Racing. I subscribed, still waiting for volume two, sigh! It died after
one
> nice slick issue, it would go better on a news-stand, somebody casually
> looking for a read, on a long train or plain flight. With tons of mags  on
a
> newsstand, I think there could be room, along with Soap opera News,
> Wrestling, People, Slime, I mean TIME !And a plethura of stuff that I
> wouldn't take if they handed it to me if I were walking by.Gees! Look at
all
> the VW stuff ya can get!
>
>     Maybe as EV's become more mainstream? Somebody could, would publish a
> national mag. The List could be a great resourse.The Good Folks at Home
> Power could start an EV mag, they have the distribution system in place,
for
> HP already.
>
>    Just some random early morning thoughts.
>
>     Seeya
>
>     Bob
>
>

From: "jmygann" <jmygann@...>
Subject: Re: Cheap Battery?

Maybe these are worth considering ??
http://tinyurl.com/bcvcq

Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
bassoon@...
415-821-3519

Hi Lawrence and All,
         Looking at their specs they seem to be similar
to Concorde, Dynasty so not that good for most EV amp
draws. Maybe for an AC drive.
         At 73lbs I'd hope they would have more cap
than YT's ;-)
                 HTH's,
                     Jerry Dycus

--- Lawrence Rhodes <bassoon@...> wrote:

>   From: "jmygann" <jmygann@...>
> Subject: Re: Cheap Battery?
>
> Maybe these are worth considering ??
> http://tinyurl.com/bcvcq
>
> Lawrence Rhodes
> Bassoon/Contrabassoon
> Reedmaker
> Book 4/5 doubler
> Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
> bassoon@...
> 415-821-3519
>
>




____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

I contacted http://www.motorfactories.com/ about their products.  They
said they are now selling the components of their vehicles.


Here are the parts for this vehicle:

http://www.motorfactories.com/ec003.html

Motor:

Nominal Output Power (KW): 15
Nominal Speed (RPM): 4000
Max Speed (RPM): 6000
Max Torque:  150NM

Price: FOB USD $1,330

Controller:

Nominal Output Power (KW): 30
Nominal Capacity (KVA): 50
Nominal Current (An): 120
Output Voltage (VAC): 220

Price: FOB USD $6,375

Batteries (Lead):

Nominal Capacity (AH): 75
Nominal Voltage (V): 12
Total Voltage (V): 312    (26 PCS of Batteries)
Range (KM): 150

Price: FOB USD $2,158

Meters and Equipment:

Voltage Meter, Current Meter, Load Meter, Potentiometers, Relay etc..

Price:  FOB USD $1,186

Optional:

Lithium Batteries:

Nominal Capacity (AH): 90
Nominal Voltage (V): 3.6
Total Voltage (V): 309    (86 PCS of Batteries)
Range (KM): 400

Price: FOB USD $25,197



And here are the parts for this vehicle:

http://www.motorfactories.com/ec002.html

Motor:

Nominal Output Power (KW): 32
Nominal Speed (RPM): 4000
Max Speed (RPM): 6000
Max Torque:  180NM

Price: FOB USD $1,950

Controller:

Nominal Output Power (KW): 42
Nominal Capacity (KVA): 50
Nominal Current (An): 120
Output Voltage (VAC): 220

Price: FOB USD $7,525

Batteries (Lead):

Nominal Capacity (AH): 75
Nominal Voltage (V): 12
Total Voltage (V): 312    (32 PCS of Batteries)
Range (KM): 220

Price: FOB USD $2,656

Meters and Equipment:

Voltage Meter, Current Meter, Load Meter, Potentiometers, Relay etc..

Price:  FOB USD $1,495


Optional:

Lithium Batteries:

Nominal Capacity (AH): 90
Nominal Voltage (V): 3.6
Total Voltage (V): 309    (86 PCS of Batteries)
Range (KM): 450

Price: FOB USD $28,130


Contact:  info@...

<<<I contacted http://www.motorfactories.com/ about their products. They
said they are now selling the components of their vehicles.


Here are the parts for this vehicle:

http://www.motorfactories.com/ec003.html>>>

I suppose it has to be safer than the Honda 600 it so closely resembles!

<<<Controller:

Nominal Output Power (KW): 30
Nominal Capacity (KVA): 50
Nominal Current (An): 120
Output Voltage (VAC): 220

Price: FOB USD $6,375>>>

Makes Victor's models look very competitive...and not to be a snob, but I'd
trust his suppliers' quality control more.

Any NEV considered, Golfcart, very small car etc.  Must be under 3k in
price. Must be street legal or setup to do so. Three wheel golfcart ok.
This is for a friend.  Must climb hills.  Must be in the San Francisco Bay
area.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
bassoon@...
415-821-3519

Looking for:
132 volt
30 amp output
240 input AC
Smart Charger


Bill & Sharon Hoopes
slh4@...

<<<Hi Lawrence and All,
Looking at their specs they seem to be similar
to Concorde, Dynasty so not that good for most EV amp
draws. Maybe for an AC drive.
At 73lbs I'd hope they would have more cap
than YT's ;-)
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus>>>

Maybe not for drag racing, but the specs at
http://www.universalpowergroup.com/specs/D5751.pdf look promising:

IR of ~4 mOhms (Orbitals =~3mOhms)
CCA of 720A
Peukert's exponent using C/5=18A and 1C=80A gives 1.08 (using C/20=5.5A and RC
of 256min gives an unrealistic 1.02!)
Cycle life >1000
Plate alloy similar to Hawkers (lead-calcium-tin)

Maybe it's all just battery company hype, but on the surface, it looks good
enough to survive Z1K use, just not Z2K like an Orbital single-string will.

<<<Its a1989 Ford E150 so it might be a classic. Tried getting a kit once but
it was around $15K and i couldnt justify the cost. Need something that wil
go 45mph top speed with a 80 mile range if possible.
Randy>>>

I think we were using the term "classic" for a van from the '60's! 80 miles with
a van may not be "impossible", but you're looking at a pretty hefty battery
pack, even at 45mph (unless you meant 80mi at much less than that). Is it a
day-dream or something more concrete, like "I have money, I'm ready to do it"?

http://www.craigslist.org/sby/car/84543571.html
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
bassoon@...
415-821-3519

I was in a few shops today looking around for ideas.



The first thing that I noticed was under a new Cadillac, the rear swing arm
pivot mounts.



They were made out of very thin steel.   No more than .090.  I could not
believe that it was so weak looking.





The next shop was a motorcycle and 4 wheeler store.



The front end from one might be OK for a lightweight EV.





I looked at one model that had the engine drive sprocket mounted at the
swing arm pivot.



This gave me an idea.  What if the swing arm pivot was large enough to allow
a driveshaft to pass through it?





You could have a motor on one side and an ICE on the other side.



What could be used as a clutch or freewheel in this setup?





This is for a 2F1R,





BoyntonStu

Any leads or contacts greatly appreciated!
Thanks,
Mac

_________________________________________________________________
Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/

Hi,

Lee Hart wrote:
> Your present ICE's 12-volt system is weak; its voltage wanders all over
> the place depending on load and engine speed.

Maybe our definitions of "weak" are different. When I talk about weak, I
was referring to the ability of the DC/DC converter to keep the system
voltage at a reasonable voltage (say 14.4 volts), at which the lights
won't appear dim and the motors will run strong.

My Jeep Wrangler's (my only ICE-ed vehicle) 12-volt system stays at a
good voltage around 14.5 volts regardless of if I have no accessories or
all the accessories turned on. My Cherokee's 12-volt system, on the
other hand, is 14 volts only when the load is very very light. For
example, if I turn the headlights on and the blower motor to full, the
voltage drops down to 13.2 volts. If the P/S pump is running, it gets
even worse. While you may not see this as being bad, I do because I
notice all the lights are now dimmer and the motors don't seem to be
working as well...

I agree with you that the voltage jumps around quite a bit in both
vehicles' 12-volt systems. The difference is one is hovering around 14.5
volts (my ICE) while the other is usually hovering below 13.5 (my EV).
Thus my Cherokee's 12-volt battery never gets fully charged while
driving, and I have to periodically charge it with an off-board charger
to keep the voltage sag from getting worse and to ensure the battery
isn't killed.

With that said, I DO realize that all of this is a fault of having a
((synonym for not-so-great)) DC/DC converter and to make matters worse a
DC/DC converter that is not sized properly for the average 12-volt load
in my EV.

However, with that known, the point here that I was trying to make in my
last post regarding this issue is that having a DC/DC that is not on all
the time makes the situation _even_worse_ as now the battery cannot
charge during the times that the vehicle is not in use, and thus is
prone to being perpetually undercharged.
    > And he's right; you can choose to make your EV better than an ICE. But
> this is a "want", not a "need". You're fixing a "problem" that most
> people do not recognize as one.

I disagree. It surely is a problem if you are killing off your 12-volt
battery because it is never getting a full charge.... and yes, I already
killed one 12-volt battery in my Cherokee this way...and while the
solution seems obvious (get a higher power, better built DC/DC) that is
hard to do when so few products exist that fit this description and work
in your voltage range...

--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------

Well the money is there and think it would be lots of fun to do but only if
its a significant cost savings over gasoline power.
Randy
----- Original Message -----
From: <cowtown@...>
To: "EV Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 2:33 PM
Subject: Re: Conversion Van


> <<<Its a1989 Ford E150 so it might be a classic. Tried getting a kit once
but
> it was around $15K and i couldnt justify the cost. Need something that wil
> go 45mph top speed with a 80 mile range if possible.
> Randy>>>
>
> I think we were using the term "classic" for a van from the '60's! 80
miles with
> a van may not be "impossible", but you're looking at a pretty hefty
battery
> pack, even at 45mph (unless you meant 80mi at much less than that). Is it
a
> day-dream or something more concrete, like "I have money, I'm ready to do
it"?
>

Hi Don, Michael and All,

--- Michael Hurley <mephit@...> wrote:

> At 8:03 AM -0700 on 7/14/05, Don Cameron wrote:
>
> >The teardrop shape is not necessarily the best
> aerodynamic shape for an

      A heck of a lot better than what's on the road
now. A practical boxy teardrop shape with the rear cut
off not too far behind the max beam will have around a
.15 CD, about 1/3 of current car CD average. That at
70mph means 2x the range!!
      And that's why I would like to do an RV like that
using a Geo Metro 3cyl with EV drive hybrid. If done
right a RV for 2-4, 7'wide x 16/18'long could get
about 40mpg+ when on gas and have a 50 mile range on
batts. Even better with a VW diesel on used Veg oil!!
      The boxing up of the shape along with cutting
it's length will make it's crosswind problems the same
as any van the same size.
       I've always wondered how a Dustbuster style GM
vans would make as an EV as they are fairly aero and
with a few small mods be really aero. If I was doing a
van conversion, I'd check them out. They are going
really cheap now too as they are over 10 yrs old.
     They use the same type plastic body panels as the
Saturn so most still look good and have fairly low
weights.

> >automobile. You must take into consideration ground
> effects.  You may want

      As someone who has designed WIGs, Ground Effect
boats, and checked out many car ground effect, other
drag studies over the yrs, I always take that into
account.
       But wheelwells, rear shape, parasitic drag are
much more important than ground effect in drag
amounts. Generally, ground effect reduction rarely
gets more than 5% and you start having clearance,
maintaince, repair problems if you really go for G.E.
drag reduction.
      On my future EV, it will have the ability to
raise/lower itself 6" for lower ground effect drag on
the highway at speed and overall aero drag reduction.
Then using higher clearance around town cuts body
damage air dams, ect would suffer.


> >to pick up a couple of newer books on vehicle
> aerodynamics if you really
> >want to make it aerodynamic.

     There has been little written on auto aerodynamics
which is too bad.
     But have studied many other aerodynamics,
especially airplanes, sailboats plus anything I can
get my hands on on car, truck aero. Any new sources
welcomed.
                    HTH's,
                      Jerry Dycus

>
> Also, side-wind aerodynamics, and multi-direction
> gusts.
> --
>
>
> 				 Auf wiedersehen!




____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

Do you do much night driving?  What watt headlights do you currently
have?  Have you considered installing maybe 60 watt or 40 watt lights?
  Maybe some LED headlights for "city driving" and be able to switch
from those to the drainers if more light is needed..

What gauge wire do you have the MR2 pump hooked up with?  Or would
that not make any difference what so ever as to how much it draws?

Have you thought about putting it on a switch and turning it off when
you are going straight(down the highway, long straight road, etc.)?

Can your DC/DC be modified to put out a little more?

Nick Viera wrote:
> My Jeep Wrangler's (my only ICE-ed vehicle) 12-volt system stays at
> a good voltage around 14.5 volts regardless of if I have no accessories
> or all the accessories turned on.

14.5v at the battery? That's actually a bit too high, and will shorten battery
life. Or 14.5v somewhere else in the system. In most cars, there is a
significant voltage drop between the alternator and the battery.

> My Cherokee's 12-volt system, on the other hand, is 14 volts only when
> the load is very very light. For example, if I turn the headlights on and
> the blower motor to full, the voltage drops down to 13.2 volts. If the
> P/S pump is running, it gets even worse.

Again, is this 14v to 13.2v change measured at the battery, or somewhere else?
It will help us to figure out where the problem is. Is the DC/DC converter's
current capability too small? Or is it set for too low a voltage? Or is its
voltage regulation poor, so it varies too much under load? Are the excess
voltage drops in the wiring?

> While you may not see this as being bad, I do because I notice all
> the lights are now dimmer and the motors don't seem to be
> working as well...

If your DC/DC can maintain about 13.2-14.2v depending on load, it is about as
good as the alternator setup in most cars.

Is your Jeep's electric power steering pump something you added? If so, it could
represent a substantial new 12v load that hasn't been accounted for in the stock
12v wiring, or in your sizing of the DC/DC converter.

> the point here that I was trying to make in my last post...
> is that having a DC/DC that is not on all the time makes the
> situation _even_worse_ as now the battery cannot charge
> during the times that the vehicle is not in use, and thus is
> prone to being perpetually undercharged.

I agree. If your DC/DC can't keep up with normal 12v loads, then it *has* to be
left on when parked, or your 12v battery will never get fully charged. The only
other option would be a separate 12v charger that *does* fully charge the
accessory battery while you are charging the rest of the propulsion pack.

>> you can choose to make your EV better than an ICE. But this
>> is a "want", not a "need". You're fixing a "problem" that most
>> people do not recognize as one.

> I disagree. It surely is a problem if you are killing off your 12-volt
> battery because it is never getting a full charge...

All I meant was that if a 12v alternator was "good enough" for the vehicle as an
ICE, then keeping that alternator and running it from your traction motor is
also going to be a "good enough" solution.

If you replace a 60amp alternator with a 60amp DC/DC, you are likely to have a
*better* system (i.e. more stable voltage). Just as you don't need to run the
alternator when parked, you don't need to run the DC/DC when parked, because it
has enough current to run all your accessory loads *and* fully charge the
battery.

If you replace a 60amp alternator with an undersized 30amp DC/DC, then yes; you
will have a weaker system with more voltage sag. If you run this DC/DC only
while driving, the 12v battery isn't going to get fully charged, and will fail
sooner. So, with such a system, you need to run the DC/DC or a separate 12v
charger when parked.
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

http://www.ar-5.com/kitcarm93.html



Here's one for you Jerry.



BoyntonStu

Randy wrote:

> Well the money is there and think it would be lots of fun to do but only if
> its a significant cost savings over gasoline power.

No more gasoline purchases..  If fuel goes up to $3 or $4 a gallon, or
there is an out right shortage..  you'll be out driving while everyone
else is walking, riding a bike, or waiting on the bus...


You want all the batteries under the rear cargo floor?  Do you also
want access hatches to get to them from above, or just mount them from
below?

Check out this long range EV:

http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/037.html


Take a look at these various controllers, motors, and chargers:

http://www.evsource.com/top_line_shop.php

Do you want flooded lead acid batteries that you will have to check
their water level and refill when low?  Or no maintenance batteries?


This is the lowest cost maintenance free battery I've been able to find so far:

http://www.remybattery.com/350/shopexd.asp?id=5448&catid=342&cat=Deka+INTIMIDATO\
R&subcat=474&L2=&L3=

Anyone know about how many of those batteries he'd need for 80 mile range?

For now, go with 348 volts worth(29 bats).

Pick out a motor, controller, and charger.  How much total?

29 of those bats at $89 each = $2581
Zilla 1k = $2825
PFC20 = $2500
9" WarP= $1465
12v DC/DC= $280  ( http://www.powerstream.com/DC-HV.htm )

Total so far = $9,651

Cable, battery racks, gauges.. some other incidentals..

If you go with batteries that need to be watered, they might cost half
as much.  There are other motors, controllers, and chargers available
at lower cost too...

Gonna do it?

EV Digest 4506

Topics covered in this issue include:

   1) Re: Slow Launch
	 by Victor Tikhonov <vtikhono@...>
   2) Re: New EM pictures and a newbee question.
	 by Michael Hurley <mephit@...>
   3) Re: Air conditioner etc
	 by Christopher Zach <czach@...>
   4) Conversion Van
	 by "Randy Bush" <randy_1@...>
   5) RE: Air conditioning from the past.   TONS OF a/c EXPLAINED.
	 by "Bill Dennis" <wjdennis@...>
   6) Re: Air conditioner etc
	 by cowtown@...
   7) Re: Conversion Van
	 by Ryan Stotts <stotts.ryan@...>
   8) Re: Conversion Van
	 by cowtown@...
   9) Re:  Singer project car. Looks very light.
	 by Tom Watson <palomineo@...>
  10) BB600's , FF and  New EM pictures and a newbee question.
	 by jerry dycus <jerry5335@...>
  11) Re: Singer project car. Looks very light.
	 by Victor Tikhonov <vtikhono@...>
  12) Dymaxion movie of it turning on a dime!
	 by "Stu or Jan" <stu@...>
  13) Re: New EM pictures
	 by "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
  14) Re: New EM pictures and a newbee question.
	 by "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
  15) Re: New EM pictures and a newbee question.
	 by "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
  16) Re: Singer project car. Looks very light.
	 by "Christopher Robison" <eeyore@...>
  17) RE: Air conditioning from the past.   TONS OF a/c EXPLAINED.
	 by "Stu or Jan" <stu@...>
  18) RE: Air conditioning from the past.
	 by Jeff Shanab <jshanab@...>
  19) Re: ICCU Ultracap Breakthrough. Will this help with SCR controller
    efficiency?
	 by toltec <toltec@...>
  20) Re: ICCU Ultracap Breakthrough. Will this help with SCR controller
   efficiency?
	 by Martin K <martin-distlists@...>
  21) Re: ICCU Ultracap Breakthrough. Will this help with SCR controller
    efficiency?
	 by Martin K <martin-distlists@...>
  22) Re: Dave and Donald  - SpamArrest
	 by "Joe Strubhar" <joe@...>
  23) Re: Dave and Donald  - SpamArrest
	 by "Dave" <Wilkerbeast01@...>
  24) RE: Motor cycle for electric
	 by Tim Clevenger <tjclevenger@...>
  25) Re: Air conditioner etc
	 by "STEVE CLUNN" <steveclunn@...>
  26) RE: Air conditioner etc
	 by "Stu or Jan" <stu@...>
  27) Re: Plasma Boy Racing website up and running
	 by John Wayland <dat1200@...>
  28) Re: Air conditioner etc
	 by Martin K <martin-distlists@...>
  29) Fundamentals of electricity (Re: ICCU Ultracap Breakthrough...)
	 by Victor Tikhonov <vtikhono@...>
  30) RE: Please Help Newbie - ev bike transmission
	 by BR Deshpande <bdeshpan@...>

A bit late, but but some comments are inserted

Roger Stockton wrote:
>
> I think there are 3 possibilities:
>
> - the controller is in current limit (i.e. the *motor* current is at its
> maximum, but RPM is low, so motor voltage and therefore power is low).
> Can you monitor the motor current with SIADIS, or just the battery
> current?  If the battery current is less than your battery current limit
> and the accelerator is floored, that is usually a sign that the
> controller is in output current limit.

Yes, this is exactly what happen.

> - the controller has some lame acelerator/throttle ramp programmed that
> causes it to respond slowly to sudden/large throttle commands.  If there
> is a throttle ramp or delay parameter, you can probably configure it
> with SIADIS.

There is programmable ramp, but it is set to milliseconds.
Don's launch lasts seconds. I'm not even sure if one can
set this ramp time for so long.
>
> - the motor simply doesn't produce that much torque at extremely low
> RPM, even with max motor current supplied.  Have to check the torque
> curve/map for this.

The torque is identical and linear up to some high RPM.
On the low side, the RPM can be as low as negative number,
(rolling backwards) still the same forward torque.

If I'm on too steep hill and floor it, the car slows down,
and then start rolling backwards down hill (negative RPM)
but the motor still makes the same torque trying to move
it forward. The field rotation just leads the rotor bu fixed
slip and slip is watched for by a sensor, whatever actual
RPM is. If you mechanically force the motor to run backwards,
the field also start rotate backwards, still maintaining
forward slip, that's all.

DC motors if stalled, will damage commutator in the
instant, so don't try it with DC. For AC, 0RPM is no
magic number, it is the same as any other RPM number.

When I say the torque is linear, say, from 0 to 6000 RPM,
the real correct statement is - it is linear from
-6000 to +6000 RPM all the way through, tapering on
both ends, (mirror around 0RPM Y axis).
>
> If its any consolation, Al Godfrey also found that his AC Porsche 928
> does not have the neck-snapping off-the-line performance as his DC 914
> had, even though it does accelerate smartly once rolling.

If you're at the motor current limit, the only way to snap
the neck (if that's the goal) is to use lower gear at launch.
I don't believe though that snapping the neck was Al's goal
when he purchased this setup, there are plenty of cheaper
ways to do it :-)

With more and more torque (much more than original ICE's) you
likely brake either gear teeth, or CV joint, or your neck,
or slip the clutch, or loose traction - whatever weakest
link is. I know, it is favorite activity of many listers,
but Al for sure isn't one of them...

> Cheers,
>
> Roger.

--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different

At 9:35 PM +0000 on 7/14/05, Alex Smith wrote:

>As I'm new at this, is $10 per 1.2v 34a/h cell a good price?

Hey, Alex, fancy seeing you here! Heh. Yeah, 10 bucks a cell is quite
a good price. These are the kind of batteries that can outlast not
just the vehicle they were originally mounted in, but 3 or 4 more
after that. Very robust and reliable. I wish I could afford about
four hundred for my car conversion.
--


					 Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."

"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in
sort of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand
naked women screaming and throwing little pickles
at you?"

"..No."

"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
					 - Real Genius

How about using a PFC20 as a 300 volt motor controller?

Chris

cowtown@... wrote:
>>>But wouldn't it be easier to get a 1-1/2 to 2hp treadmill motor from Burden
>
> or
>
>>>AmSci&Surplus? These are usually spec'd for 100-120vdc, so you could run it
>>>directly from the pack, connect it to all 3 units (power steering and
>
> brakes,
>
>>>A/C), and forgo complicated controls except an off circuit to cut power when
>>>none of the 3 are in use. Don't know the mechanical setup, but maybe a
>>>serpentine belt or even a chain and gears?
>>>
>>
>>Ok, I'm on board with not using an alternator and I have a nice new treadmill
>
> motor sitting in my
>
>>basement. Now how do I control the motor? I will have a high voltage traction
>
> pack, over 300
>
>>volts. And I'd like to be able to vary the speed of the motor, slower on the
>
> highway, faster at
>
>>slow speeds for the power steering.
>>
>>Dave Cover
>
>
> 300V might would create too high of rpms directly, so a motor controller is
best
> for your application anyway. You'd probably only need 10A of current, but
where
> are you going to find a HV/LC controller?! I've seen a Solectria controller
> like that on eBay (not now) and I'm sure if you have the money you can find
> one, but maybe one of the EVDL gurus can make one? I see these 24V/10A
> controller kits on the web, but I doubt you can easily upgrade the voltage
just
> by swapping out a few parts!
>

Has anyone converted a Ford E150 van?
Randy

BoyntonStu wrote:

>If you froze 38/8.3 = 4.57 gallons of water during the night and put it in
>your car with a fan over it, you would be carrying a 5,500 BTU A/C unit.

I want to be sure I understand your numbers.  Are you sayig that a small
room A/C is rated at 5,500 BTUs per hour (i.e., about 1/2 ton)?  If so, then
what you'd be carrying with 4.57 gallons of frozen water is not a 5,500 BTU
A/C unit, but rather one hour's worth of a 5,500 BTU A/C unit--is that
correct or have I misunderstood?

Thanks.

Bill Dennis

> How about using a PFC20 as a 300 volt motor controller?
>
> Chris
>

Wow, that's a cool idea! You'd have to make some remote adjustment circuits to
control output from the driver's seat, and wire up a 300VDC AC wall plug...but
just plug into the pack when you unplug from the mains! You'd also have to
idiot-proof the voltage adjustment setting so "driving" outputs are
differentiated from "charging" outputs.

Randy Bush wrote:

> Has anyone converted a Ford E150 van?

I've never seen one converted.  Though it would make for an easy
conversion since there is plenty of space for the batteries.  Not to
mention, a real frame to work with vs's unibody construction...

http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/ford.html

<<< Has anyone converted a Ford E150 van?
Randy >>>

Someone was talking about a classic van conversion on the list a few months ago,
but no updates since then. Is yours a new van or a really old one (i.e. - a
"classic")? One thing about the old ones is the much lower empty weight.

Dear Lawrence
But with a name like Singer, you would run the risk of
having people insulting your car by saying it sounds
like a sewing machine...
http://www.singerco.com/products/
that used to be the ultimate putdown for motor bikes
around here!

1st,2nd,3rd
zzzzzzzt,...zzzzzzzt,...zzzzzzt

Tom
------snip------
Subject: Singer project car. Looks very light.

This car would make a great EV.  LR.........In Oakland
CA
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4561012932&categor\
y=6314&ssPageName=WDVW&rd=1
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
bassoon@...
415-821-3519


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

Hi Christopher, Alex and All,

--- Christopher Robison <eeyore@...>
wrote:

> Compared to their original price, yes. However, you
> will likely be able to
> find them for much less.

     At $400 a cell to the gov, yes, they were pricy!!


>
> I, for example, have a dozen unopened cases of them
> (38 cells per case)
> that I'll be selling one way or another, at a couple
> bucks each to recover
> my original costs (which included a substantial
> freight charge).  I've
> verified they're very good cells and they work well,
> but don't give quite
> enough current for my purposes.

      These would be good units for Alex's FF bike. 2
strings of 48vdc or one of 72-96 would be good for him
giving both good range and power.
      Alex, these ni-cads give more than rated power +
a stiffer voltage and can be discharged lower and left
without charging without harming them. Add to that a
20+ yr life and they are a bargain at these low
surplus prices.



>
> I've talked to Noel at SG Photo (linked below) and
> most of the cells she
> sells are Marathons, which are reported to deliver
> much higher currents
> than what I've been able to get out of the Safts.
> If you want/need much
> more than 1000A, they may be worth the money. I'm
> considering that avenue,
> but at the moment I think I'll go back to planning
> on Orbitals.

     You must need a lot of amps!!! Too go for so much
less useable cap, more weight, cost of the Orbitals.
     But many have planned on using 2-300 of these
cells and that's just to big a pain to water so I
expect a bunch of these will be back on the market.
     Which is great as I'd really like some too for my
smaller EV bikes/trikes. 34+ amphrs at 24-48vdc  is
just right for them.
     I'm putting together an EV go cart this month and
they would be perfect for it amoung the others.
>
>   --chris
>
>
>

> >>
> >> >From: "Alex Smith"
  >> >Subject: Re: New EM pictures and a newbee
> question.
> >> >Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:33:21 +0000
> >> >
> >> >Hi Guys.
> >> >Just joined at the advice of Jerry Dycus as I am
> in the process of
> >>building
> >> >(well, gathereing the components and doing the
> design work) an electric
> >> >motorcycle.
> >> >It is to be a 'feet forward', low slung,
> semi-enclosed machine. While I
> >>am
> >> >currently designing the machine to accomodate 5
> 12volt flooded
> >> batteries,
> >> >the design would be much nicer with smaller
> batteries.
> >> >I've done a good bit of surfing but have been
> unable to find the
> >> BB600's
> >> >you have mentioned. Any leads?
> >> >Alex Smith
> >> >3 wheeled vehicle enthusiast.

      Alex is being modest here as he has probably the
best Vortex 3wh sportscar ever built. And they are not
easy to do well. I like it because much of the
chassis/body is made of plywood/epoxy covered in
foam/fiberglass.
     He also owns the Vortex3wheeler@ yahoogroups list
which is a great place for any 3 wheel vehicles,
designers, builders including EV versions and most are
built from scratch.
       He has run the EVProduction list for me and been
a great help in the effort getting EV's into
production. Hopefully I rekindled an EV grin in him.
       I think he'll make a great aero FF EV MC with
his talent and ability to keep on a project until
completion that will be a credit to EV's.


> >> >Glider Pilot.
> >> >Sail boat enthusiast.
> >> >EV's fit right in there, don't they?

       All nice, quite and eff!! You'll find many
sailors on this list.
       Glad you joined the best EV list Alex,
                    Jerry Dycus







____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

IMHO, still better than facionable roaring of
modified mufflers which rather sound like farting
heard from far away...

Tom Watson wrote:
> Dear Lawrence
> But with a name like Singer, you would run the risk of
> having people insulting your car by saying it sounds
> like a sewing machine...

--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different

http://www.thirteen.org/bucky/qt/cop.qt





BTW  I just found out some other information.



The skin was aircraft fabric.  If we made a strong roll cage, why not?





The weight was incorrectly reported by most sources a 1,100 pounds.



More likely, that was the rear wheel weight.



Os 3,300 pounds or more is more likely.





120 mph and 35 mpg is still very good with a driver and carrying 10
passengers with a Model T engine.





BoyntonStu

The performance and range are better than the Lectra that had more weight in
batteries.  Good job.  LR........
----- Original Message -----
From: "damon henry" <damonhenry@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 8:22 AM
Subject: Re: New EM pictures


> Actually 44 cells and 150lbs.
>
>>From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
>>Reply-To: ev@...
>>To: <ev@...>
>>Subject: Re: New EM pictures
>>Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 22:59:04 -0700
>>
>>So 60 batteries about 200 pounds?  17 miles.  Great.  If you can do any
>>Freeway that is great.  The bike is so much cleaner now.  Seems you have
>>the chain figured out too.  LR........
>>
>>
>>>I snapped a few shots of my bike with the BB600's mounted and added them
>>>to my webpage.
>>>
>>>http://home.comcast.net/~damonhenry/ebike.htm
>>>
>>>I am much happier with the way it looks with these batteries.  The only
>>>downside is that people rarely notice that it is electric now :-(
>>>
>>>damon
>>>
>>
>

I still have about 200 or so of them.  I need a controller more than these
batteries.  LR..........
----- Original Message -----
From: "damon henry" <damonhenry@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 11:14 AM
Subject: Re: New EM pictures and a newbee question.


> This list is as good a place as I know of to find them.  They are usually
> obtained as military surplus, and thanks to the efforts of one of our list
> members earlier this year some of us got in on a buy stemming from a
> surplus auction.
>
> Unfortunately for you all of us who got in on this buy are just starting
> to use our batteries and decididng whether they really fit the application
> we were hoping to use them for.  Mine are working out great for me, but I
> suspect others will find that they don't, and be offering them for sale in
> the future.
>
> Since you are still in the design stage I would suggest looking at the
> sizes of some of the more commonly used batteries and make sure you build
> in a space that will accomodate as many of these choices as is practical.
> We can certainly get you dimensions.  With the BB600 the only dimension
> you really need to worry about is the height which is approx. 9 1/4
> inches, but they do require occasional watering so you will need easy
> access to the tops of them.  Also they are flooded so they need to be used
> in a vertical position.
>
> These people used to sell them, but it's been well over a year since I
> last checked with them.  Still you can see a photo and the dimensions.
>
> http://www.sg-photo.com/nicad_batteries.htm
>
> damon
>
>>From: "Alex Smith" <cdninoh@...>
>>Reply-To: ev@...
>>To: ev@...
>>Subject: Re: New EM pictures and a newbee question.
>>Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:33:21 +0000
>>
>>Hi Guys.
>>Just joined at the advice of Jerry Dycus as I am in the process of
>>building (well, gathereing the components and doing the design work) an
>>electric motorcycle.
>>It is to be a 'feet forward', low slung, semi-enclosed machine. While I am
>>currently designing the machine to accomodate 5 12volt flooded batteries,
>>the design would be much nicer with smaller batteries.
>>I've done a good bit of surfing but have been unable to find the BB600's
>>you have mentioned. Any leads?
>>Alex Smith
>>3 wheeled vehicle enthusiast.
>>Glider Pilot.
>>Sail boat enthusiast.
>>EV's fit right in there, don't they?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>From: "damon henry" <damonhenry@...>
>>>Reply-To: ev@...
>>>To: ev@...
>>>Subject: Re: New EM pictures
>>>Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:22:09 +0000
>>>
>>>Actually 44 cells and 150lbs.
>>>
>>>>From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
>>>>Reply-To: ev@...
>>>>To: <ev@...>
>>>>Subject: Re: New EM pictures
>>>>Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 22:59:04 -0700
>>>>
>>>>So 60 batteries about 200 pounds?  17 miles.  Great.  If you can do any
>>>>Freeway that is great.  The bike is so much cleaner now.  Seems you have
>>>>the chain figured out too.  LR........
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I snapped a few shots of my bike with the BB600's mounted and added
>>>>>them to my webpage.
>>>>>
>>>>>http://home.comcast.net/~damonhenry/ebike.htm
>>>>>
>>>>>I am much happier with the way it looks with these batteries.  The only
>>>>>downside is that people rarely notice that it is electric now :-(
>>>>>
>>>>>damon
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

Depends.  They were 400 dollars new to the govt.  I guess you could say
getting them for 10 each is your tax dollars at work.  I still have 1800
dollars of them in my garage.  I need a controller more than a set of
batteries.  LR..........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex Smith" <cdninoh@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 2:35 PM
Subject: Re: New EM pictures and a newbee question.


> As I'm new at this, is $10 per 1.2v 34a/h cell a good price?
> Alex
>
>
>>From: Bruce Weisenberger <darnthedog@...>
>>Reply-To: ev@...
>>To: ev@...
>>Subject: Re: New EM pictures and a newbee question.
>>Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 14:21:00 -0700 (PDT)
>>
>>Just emailed them a week ago they have a couple hundred left.
>>
>>damon henry <damonhenry@...> wrote:This list is as good a place as
>>I know of to find them. They are usually
>>obtained as military surplus, and thanks to the efforts of one of our list
>>members earlier this year some of us got in on a buy stemming from a
>>surplus
>>auction.
>>
>>Unfortunately for you all of us who got in on this buy are just starting
>>to
>>use our batteries and decididng whether they really fit the application we
>>were hoping to use them for. Mine are working out great for me, but I
>>suspect others will find that they don't, and be offering them for sale in
>>the future.
>>
>>Since you are still in the design stage I would suggest looking at the
>>sizes
>>of some of the more commonly used batteries and make sure you build in a
>>space that will accomodate as many of these choices as is practical. We
>>can
>>certainly get you dimensions. With the BB600 the only dimension you really
>>need to worry about is the height which is approx. 9 1/4 inches, but they
>>do
>>require occasional watering so you will need easy access to the tops of
>>them. Also they are flooded so they need to be used in a vertical
>>position.
>>
>>These people used to sell them, but it's been well over a year since I
>>last
>>checked with them. Still you can see a photo and the dimensions.
>>
>>http://www.sg-photo.com/nicad_batteries.htm
>>
>>damon
>>
>> >From: "Alex Smith"
>> >Reply-To: ev@...
>> >To: ev@...
>> >Subject: Re: New EM pictures and a newbee question.
>> >Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:33:21 +0000
>> >
>> >Hi Guys.
>> >Just joined at the advice of Jerry Dycus as I am in the process of
>>building
>> >(well, gathereing the components and doing the design work) an electric
>> >motorcycle.
>> >It is to be a 'feet forward', low slung, semi-enclosed machine. While I
>>am
>> >currently designing the machine to accomodate 5 12volt flooded
>> >batteries,
>> >the design would be much nicer with smaller batteries.
>> >I've done a good bit of surfing but have been unable to find the BB600's
>> >you have mentioned. Any leads?
>> >Alex Smith
>> >3 wheeled vehicle enthusiast.
>> >Glider Pilot.
>> >Sail boat enthusiast.
>> >EV's fit right in there, don't they?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >>From: "damon henry"
>> >>Reply-To: ev@...
>> >>To: ev@...
>> >>Subject: Re: New EM pictures
>> >>Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:22:09 +0000
>> >>
>> >>Actually 44 cells and 150lbs.
>> >>
>> >>>From: "Lawrence Rhodes"
>> >>>Reply-To: ev@...
>> >>>To:
>> >>>Subject: Re: New EM pictures
>> >>>Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 22:59:04 -0700
>> >>>
>> >>>So 60 batteries about 200 pounds? 17 miles. Great. If you can do any
>> >>>Freeway that is great. The bike is so much cleaner now. Seems you have
>> >>>the chain figured out too. LR........
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>>I snapped a few shots of my bike with the BB600's mounted and added
>>them
>> >>>>to my webpage.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>http://home.comcast.net/~damonhenry/ebike.htm
>> >>>>
>> >>>>I am much happier with the way it looks with these batteries. The
>> >>>>only
>> >>>>downside is that people rarely notice that it is electric now :-(
>> >>>>
>> >>>>damon
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Future 72 Super Beetle conversion in progress
>>__________________________________________________
>>Do You Yahoo!?
>>Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>http://mail.yahoo.com
>>
>

Victor Tikhonov said:
> IMHO, still better than facionable roaring of
> modified mufflers which rather sound like farting
> heard from far away...

What's odd is that while volunteering at the Dell-Winston Solar Car
Challenge a week ago, I noticed a couple cars using large hub motors --
the cogging on these motors was so bad that when running they sounded very
much like flatulent sport mufflers.  And they were LOUD.  I've heard
tricked out Hondas that were quieter than those motors.


   --chris

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...] On
Behalf Of Bill Dennis
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 7:14 PM
To: ev@...
Subject: RE: Air conditioning from the past. TONS OF a/c EXPLAINED.

BoyntonStu wrote:

>If you froze 38/8.3 = 4.57 gallons of water during the night and put it in
>your car with a fan over it, you would be carrying a 5,500 BTU A/C unit.

I want to be sure I understand your numbers.  Are you sayig that a small
room A/C is rated at 5,500 BTUs per hour (i.e., about 1/2 ton)?  If so, then
what you'd be carrying with 4.57 gallons of frozen water is not a 5,500 BTU
A/C unit, but rather one hour's worth of a 5,500 BTU A/C unit--is that
correct or have I misunderstood?

You are correct.


A 5,500 BTU/hr air conditioner can in a single hour cool 5,500 BTU.
The next hour, it will cool another 5,500 BTU's.

4.57 gallons of ice can only melt once and cool 5,500 BTU's.

The next hour zero.


I hope that I have made it clear.


BoyntonStu


Thanks.

Bill Dennis

Just some info on ice storage systems
   a BTU is the energy to raise 1 lb of water 1 degree farenheight so a
tank of water at 90 degrees takes 58 BTUs per lb to bring to freezing
and another 144 BTUs /lb to convert it to ICE.

If we consider 1 ton = 12,000 btu's /hr(smallest auto AC) ( ironically
based on the amount of heat needed to melt 1 ton of ice in 24 hours)
and we want 1 hr of  72 degree max air
72-32 = 40BTU's/lb + 144 = 184 btu's/lb so 12,000/184 = 65 Lbs of ICE.
Since the air outlet is a lot colder initially and most EV's are under 1
hour of range,  perhaps less would do.


One system uses air accross little spheres full of water avoiding coils
and exchange fluid..

As I discussed how we might make these ourselfs, the 16.9 oz diet coke
plastic bottle in my hand gave us the idea of useing them.

How about this idea
An icebox with a blower, mounted in the car. the almost full coke
bottles in the freezer in the garage, just load them up before you
unplug and drive away.
the 16.9 oz ones weight about a lb, so an ice chest that can hold 25-30
of them would be large enough.

These are real rough calculations, anyone have some better data?

The problem I see is I need the AC on the way home from work, not to work.

Most R134 systems cannot use an acumulator like the old r12 systems
could of because the expansion valve is gone, they use O-tubes. So the
saturation of the vapor is influenced by the overall charge, It is why
you need a scale to get them charged just right, they call them "
critically charged"   otherwise, regenerative AC would work well in this
town.(fresno Ca)

> Is that helpful? If not, just get any textbook on the subject, and you
> can learn all you want on capacitors.


I guess what I'm digging for is a deeper understanding of electricity
itself... I mean, I keep thinking I've got a solid workable mechanical
model for stuff, and then there always seems to be some kind of
curveball (field effects, etc), that knock the simple mechanical
"electron as a discrete thingy" model off whack...

also, I can see this is not a particularly appropriate thread for the
list, so I'll stop now... but thnx!

toltec wrote:
> well, the analogies are all fine and good, and they provide a
> generalized overview of the FUNCTION the components are providing, but I
> guess the problem for me is that they don't seem explicit enough about
> the actual electron movements to have "locked it in" for me, so to
> speak, etc...

It's all about what Lee talked about regarding the ESR [equivalent
series resistance]

A battery may have an ESR of .03 ohms. If you draw square-wave pulses of
100 amps of current [say the battery is 12v with no load] then the
battery will actually have 12-IR volts across it when the 100 amp
current is running through it, 12-100*.03 = 9 volts. If you have a
capacitor with an ESR of .001 ohms in parallel with that battery, the
resulting ESR would be 0.00075 ohms and the voltage during a current
draw of 100 amps would be much closer to 12 volts. This isn't a hard and
fast rule though, it only works for short pulses of current unless your
capacitor is utterly gigantic.

The energy stored in a capacitor is 1/2*C*V^2 [joules] so if you have a
capacitor of 1000uF charged to 120v it would have 7.2J of energy. Not
much at all. The capacitor can dispense that energy quite fast though,
much faster than a battery.

--
Martin K
http://wwia.org/

toltec wrote:
   >
> I guess what I'm digging for is a deeper understanding of electricity
> itself... I mean, I keep thinking I've got a solid workable mechanical
> model for stuff, and then there always seems to be some kind of
> curveball (field effects, etc), that knock the simple mechanical
> "electron as a discrete thingy" model off whack...
>
> also, I can see this is not a particularly appropriate thread for the
> list, so I'll stop now... but thnx!

Fun links:
http://www.ibiblio.org/obp/electricCircuits/index.htm
http://www.electricstuff.co.uk/

I think what you may be more interested in is physics. Electronics
generally stops at the electron level IMHO.

--
Martin K
http://wwia.org/

I don't get them - but then again, I have McAfee and Postini services.

Joseph H. Strubhar

E-Mail: joe@...

Web: www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Viera" <jeepev@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: Dave and Donald - SpamArrest


> Hi,
>
> Don Cameron wrote:
> > Everytime I post to the EV Mailing list I get a email to my account from
> > "Dave" and or "Donald" about registering for their spam arrest.
> > Please turn this off - it is just another form of spam - it is also
abuse of
> > my private email address.
>
> I got some of those as well, though I wasn't sure if anyone else was
> receiving them or not as they appear to be going around off list? They
> are irritating for sure...
>
> --
> -Nick
> http://Go.DriveEV.com/
> 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
> ---------------------------
>
>

All
  I think I have gotten all of the rotten "SPAM Arrestor" off my system.
Again, I apologize for all inconvenience and problems.

"Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"

Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Strubhar" <joe@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 9:04 PM
Subject: Re: Dave and Donald - SpamArrest


>I don't get them - but then again, I have McAfee and Postini services.
>
> Joseph H. Strubhar
>
> E-Mail: joe@...
>
> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Nick Viera" <jeepev@...>
> To: <ev@...>
> Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 12:23 PM
> Subject: Re: Dave and Donald - SpamArrest
>
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Don Cameron wrote:
>> > Everytime I post to the EV Mailing list I get a email to my account
>> > from
>> > "Dave" and or "Donald" about registering for their spam arrest.
>> > Please turn this off - it is just another form of spam - it is also
> abuse of
>> > my private email address.
>>
>> I got some of those as well, though I wasn't sure if anyone else was
>> receiving them or not as they appear to be going around off list? They
>> are irritating for sure...
>>
>> --
>> -Nick
>> http://Go.DriveEV.com/
>> 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
>> ---------------------------
>>
>>
>

I have to agree with Chris.  Try to pick a donor that fits with the goal
of your EM.  If you're looking for a utilitarian EM, go with a standard
or touring bike donor.  If you're looking for a performer, go with a
sportbike donor.  If you want trendy or futuristic, go with a scooter
donor.  If you want cool, use a cruiser donor and chrome your motor and
controller.  :-)


On Jul 13, 2005, at 8:42 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:

> From: "damon henry" <damonhenry@...>
> Date: July 13, 2005 1:36:29 PM PDT
> To: ev@...
> Subject: RE: Motor cycle for electric
>
>
>
>> Hi Damon,
>>
>> I have never built an EM and you have, so I give you a lot of
>> credit for
>> experience.  But I don't think you have experience with the EM I'm
>> thinking
>> of.  I'm not saying you need to have killer performance to be
>> legitimate,
>> but I think it's reasonable to expect good performance if you're
>> starting
>> with a performance bike.  What I've described would be a 600 lb.
>> bike with
>> well over 100 horsepower.  Not a record-setter, but certainly
>> respectable.
>>
>> I don't know why you think it will have poor range.  In a car, 50%
>> of your
>> weight in lead gets you around a 100 mile range.  Obviously the
>> weight of
>> the rider is a much greater proportion of a motorcycle's weight, and
>> aerodynamics really stink at highway speed.  But still, it should
>> have at
>> least your 15-20 mile range, maybe double that.  Unfortunately we
>> don't have
>> a lot of data on EMs so that's a guess.

Subject: Re: Air conditioner etc
another way of looking at how much the Air Conditioning uses , is how many
MPH slower you need to drive to use the same amps ,.  I found that in the
Mazda 1 driving 2 or 3 miles slower (at 50 /48 ) would make up for the extra
amps used .
>)
>

steve clunn

>

Steve,

A GOOD POINT!

2-3 MPH  loss out of 50 is 4% to 6%.

BoyntonStu

Going up to Ft. Pierce today.

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...] On
Behalf Of STEVE CLUNN
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 9:02 AM
To: ev@...
Subject: Re: Air conditioner etc



Subject: Re: Air conditioner etc
another way of looking at how much the Air Conditioning uses , is how many
MPH slower you need to drive to use the same amps ,.  I found that in the
Mazda 1 driving 2 or 3 miles slower (at 50 /48 ) would make up for the extra

amps used .
>)
>

steve clunn

>

Hi Mark,

OK...saw the little item you added to the page...good humor. Two things....could
you
correct the spelling from 'beem' to 'been' and, make a link where others can
upload
pictures for us to sort through?

See Ya....John

cowtown@... wrote:

> 300V might would create too high of rpms directly, so a motor controller is
best
> for your application anyway. You'd probably only need 10A of current, but
where
> are you going to find a HV/LC controller?! I've seen a Solectria controller
> like that on eBay (not now) and I'm sure if you have the money you can find
> one, but maybe one of the EVDL gurus can make one? I see these 24V/10A
> controller kits on the web, but I doubt you can easily upgrade the voltage
just
> by swapping out a few parts!
>

Open-loop bottom-side control would be quite easy. A 500v MOSFET and an
MCU or a quad opamp + shunt for overcurrent control and you could
probably make it work. You'd need an inductor on that PM motor because
it inherently has a small inductance which would mean quite large
current spikes.

It can be done but I wouldn't want someone to try it without some
previous experience in electronics.

--
Martin K
http://wwia.org/

This is reasonable for practical electronics approach -
assume that electrons are actually infinitely small
particles carrying electrical charge that are plentiful
in metals, absent in good insulators (thus they are insulators!)
and there are some in semiconductors which makes their
conductivity somewhere in between (thus the name) but also
very unstable in terms of being far more sensitive to dopings
of different kinds and temperature.

"Voltage" and "current" are easily measurable "after effects"
of electric an magnetic at work, they are always there accompanying
fields and they are proportional to the fields strength so can be
(and are) used as their equivalents in calculations and practical
measurements. A voltage or current (as primary matter, not derivatives)
does not exist in nature, only electric and magnetic fields. Fields
just cause effects we can explain by voltage and current concepts.
A fair analogy can be measuring a water flow ("field") by measuring
an RPM of a propeller placed in a flow (current"). A flow will
always create proportional RPM output so you create a gadget
to measure RPM (ammeter) and claim that you measure the flow
itself (field). But "RPM" does not exist in nature, it's
a man made gadget's property reflecting secondary effect of the
flow, thus conveniently used, but not really a *flow* measurement.
It is RPM measurement. Same with current and voltage.

Really there is no need to dig deep to make practical use
of voltage and current as equivalents of electric and
magnetic fields, the this science is very well developed
for few hundreds of years by now. Seeing electrons as little
"balls" has obvious limitations as they *have* to move at lower
than light speed and have finite mass. Yet all last century's
attempts to detect the weight difference between charged chunk
of material (with presumably many electrons crammed in it) and
discharged one failed, precisely for this reason (wrong
assumption). Electrons are half particles, half waves, depending
on what their effect you're trying to explain. And a wave weigh
nothing, but penetrate the material. Anyway, this is all
fascinating but really getting OT.

Back to Earth, a water in a pipe analogy will work for 99% of
your needs as far as wiring or constructing low freq circuits.
Some knowledge about semiconductors (on a diode/transistor level)
is enough for most practical tasks. If you design high speed
electronics, you'd need more, but there are different lists and
sources for that.

Victor


Martin K wrote:
>
>
> toltec wrote:
>  >
>
>> I guess what I'm digging for is a deeper understanding of electricity
>> itself... I mean, I keep thinking I've got a solid workable mechanical
>> model for stuff, and then there always seems to be some kind of
>> curveball (field effects, etc), that knock the simple mechanical
>> "electron as a discrete thingy" model off whack...
>>
>> also, I can see this is not a particularly appropriate thread for the
>> list, so I'll stop now... but thnx!
>
>
> Fun links:
> http://www.ibiblio.org/obp/electricCircuits/index.htm
> http://www.electricstuff.co.uk/
>
> I think what you may be more interested in is physics. Electronics
> generally stops at the electron level IMHO.
>

--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different

Don - thanks for the reply. I found out my error. With a 12:72 teeth ratio,
I can get a peak speed of about 42 mph.

I have a spreadsheet into which I plug in my desired top speed, acceleration
and payload (and after making some assumptions about the number and types of
driving cycles), it calculates the apprx current, charge required, power and
torque based on a given voltage.

Currently here are my assumptions:
Top speed - 68 kph
Payload (including rider) - 130 kg
Acceleration - 0 to top speed in 20 sec
System voltage - 36V
Transmission ratio - 6 (12:72)

Based on these my spreadsheet is showing that my peak torque required is
about 21 Nm (Etek can produce 20 Nm at 4000 rpm) for uphill travel
Max current draw is 54 A (Curtis 1201 handles upto 100A?)
Power is about 6 kW (peak etek is 11kW)

Does this seem reasonable?

I dont have batteries yet. It looks like for the type of drive cycles I have
assumed, I would need a 20Ah setup. Any recommendations?


Thanks.

___________________________

> From: "Don Cameron" <ev@...>
> To: <ev@...>
> Subject: RE: Please Help Newbie - ev bike transmission
> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 10:02:17 -0700
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="us-ascii"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Message-Id: <
> 20050711170217.LOMA26042.priv-edtnes40.telusplanet.net@CSLLaptop1>
>
> For an outside diameter wheel of 24" to get a top speed of 28mph at
> 3600rpm, you will need an overall ratio of 9:1
>
> A 12:1 will get you approx 22mph at 3600rpm.
>
> There are a number of gear speed calculators on the net. One is
> http://www.kabamus.com/garage/gears.html I suggest you make absolutely
> sure
> of your speed and torque needs before purchasing your gears.
>
>
> Also, will the ETek, controller and battery combination have enough power
> to
> accelerate you and your bike to the speed desired? How about up a hill?
>
>
>
> Please post your reply messages to the list so others can learn from your
> experiences.
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/ <http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/>
>
> -----Original Message-----

> From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...] On
> Behalf Of BR Deshpande
> Sent: July 11, 2005 9:39 AM
> To: ev@...
> Subject: Please Help Newbie - ev bike transmission
>
> Hi All,
>
> I posted this query sometime back but dont know if i got any responses.
> Hence the repost.
>
> I have some questions about the choice of rear sprocket for my dirt bike
> project. The sprocket will be chain driven by a 36 V etek motor.
>
> Doing some quick and dirty calculations, i came to the conclusion that at
> the top rpm of the motor 3600, if i want reasonable top wheel speeds of
> say
> 25-30 mph i need to use a teeth ratio of 1:12.
>
> I have been unsuccesful in finding sprockets. The highest i have found so
> far is 12:72 (front:rear). I have 18" wheels (24" outer dia of the tires).
>
> The other issue is regarding freewheeling. I am not sure if my Curtis
> 1201 supports this. It looks like I may have to do it mechanically.
> Are there freewheeling sprockets available for a this kind of bike?
>
> I would like some ideas about how to achieve a top speed of 30mph (a
> jackshaft for an intermediate step down?) using my current setup and
> secondly on what would be a good way to do the freewheeling. Thanks in
> advance
>
> Regards,
> B.R. Deshpande.
>
>
> --
"The resistance to a new idea increases as the square of its importance."
-Bertrand Russell.

EV Digest 4505

Topics covered in this issue include:

   1) Air conditioning from the past.
	 by "Stu or Jan" <stu@...>
   2) RE: Slow Launch
	 by "Roger Stockton" <rstockton@...>
   3) Re: how many amps?
	 by Nick Viera <jeepev@...>
   4) Re: Dave and Donald  - SpamArrest
	 by Nick Viera <jeepev@...>
   5) Re: Slow Launch
	 by Victor Tikhonov <vtikhono@...>
   6) Re: Tach sensor stuff
	 by "Roland Wiench" <ev_7@...>
   7) RE: Slow Launch
	 by "Don Cameron" <ev@...>
   8) Re: Dave and Donald  - SpamArrest
	 by Victor Tikhonov <vtikhono@...>
   9) Re: Dave and Donald  - SpamArrest
	 by "Peter VanDerWal" <evdl@...>
  10) RE: Air conditioning from the past.
	 by "Bill Dennis" <wjdennis@...>
  11) Re: Slow Launch
	 by Victor Tikhonov <vtikhono@...>
  12) Re: Dymaxion, etc.
	 by jerry dycus <jerry5335@...>
  13) Re: MC EV drive Set ups / eff Re: Motor cycle for electric
	 by jerry dycus <jerry5335@...>
  14) RE: Air conditioning from the past.
	 by "Andre' Blanchard" <andre@...>
  15) Re: Dave and Donald  - SpamArrest
	 by Nick Austin <nick@...>
  16) Re: Air conditioner etc
	 by cowtown@...
  17) RE: Air conditioning from the past.   TONS OF a/c EXPLAINED.
	 by "Stu or Jan" <stu@...>
  18) Re: Dave and Donald  - SpamArrest
	 by "Dave" <Wilkerbeast01@...>
  19) Re: Dave and Donald  - SpamArrest
	 by "Dave" <Wilkerbeast01@...>
  20) Re: New EM pictures and a newbee question.
	 by Bruce Weisenberger <darnthedog@...>
  21) Re: New EM pictures and a newbee question.
	 by "Alex Smith" <cdninoh@...>
  22) Re: New EM pictures and a newbee question.
	 by "Alex Smith" <cdninoh@...>
  23) Re: New EM pictures and a newbee question.
	 by "Christopher Robison" <eeyore@...>

We can learn a lot from Buckminster Fuller.  His Dymaxion car was the first
with A/C.

Not mechanical A/C, he used dry ice.

This raises a very interesting concept.  Could we make 'cold' on the grid
and use it like our batteries?

Could we make dry ice at home during the night and use it the next day for
A/C?

Is there anything else we could use?



BoyntonStu

Don Cameron [mailto:ev@...] wrote:

> I start off in second gear (an overall ratio of about 8:1)
> and notice when I stomp on the throttle, the car does not
> have a quick launch but gently tapers up the acceleration.
> Once it reaches 2500 RPM, the acceleration is quick, but off
> the line it is unexpectedly slow.

I think there are 3 possibilities:

- the controller is in current limit (i.e. the *motor* current is at its
maximum, but RPM is low, so motor voltage and therefore power is low).
Can you monitor the motor current with SIADIS, or just the battery
current?  If the battery current is less than your battery current limit
and the accelerator is floored, that is usually a sign that the
controller is in output current limit.

- the controller has some lame acelerator/throttle ramp programmed that
causes it to respond slowly to sudden/large throttle commands.  If there
is a throttle ramp or delay parameter, you can probably configure it
with SIADIS.

- the motor simply doesn't produce that much torque at extremely low
RPM, even with max motor current supplied.  Have to check the torque
curve/map for this.

If its any consolation, Al Godfrey also found that his AC Porsche 928
does not have the neck-snapping off-the-line performance as his DC 914
had, even though it does accelerate smartly once rolling.

Cheers,

Roger.

Hi,

Ryan Stotts wrote:
> Since you are using flooded lead acid batteries, you might need to set
> the motor amps in the Zilla to 400 amps.  With AGM's.. you could give
> the motor full amps..

There is no reason to set the motor current lower just because you are
using flooded batteries. It is the _battery_ current that you'd want to
set lower (i.e. 400 amps) in order to protect the flooded lead acid
batteries (assuming you only have one series string of them). The motor
current can remain at 1000 amps regardless of battery type.

This is how the Zilla in my Cherokee is configured. Although this means
the Zilla isn't really being used to it's full potential, the result is
that you get a lot more low-end torque and generally the vehicle pulls
harder. So IMO it's still a _very_ worthwhile upgrade.

--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------

Hi,

Don Cameron wrote:
> Everytime I post to the EV Mailing list I get a email to my account from
> "Dave" and or "Donald" about registering for their spam arrest.
> Please turn this off - it is just another form of spam - it is also abuse of
> my private email address.

I got some of those as well, though I wasn't sure if anyone else was
receiving them or not as they appear to be going around off list? They
are irritating for sure...

--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------

Don Cameron wrote:
> On the new Beetle, I use a Siemens system at 312V with a 5133WS18 motor and
> Simovert controller - max torque of 175Nm/129ft-lbs
>
> I modified SIADIS so that it can take up to 250amps current.  I use to have
> it limited to 100amps.
>
> I start off in second gear (an overall ratio of about 8:1) and notice when I
> stomp on the throttle, the car does not have a quick launch but gently
> tapers up the acceleration.  Once it reaches 2500 RPM, the acceleration is
> quick, but off the line it is unexpectedly slow.
>
> I notice on the ammeter that at launch it is only taking in 50-80 amps, then
> as the RPMS rise to 2500 rpm, the amps rise to the maximum current of 250
> amps.
>
> Is this slow launch a factor of the control software? Maybe it is the
> maximum torque of the motor? Is the launch a factor of torque or power?

When you stomp on the throttle, you immediately reach 400A rms
motor current limit and max torque accordingly. Your acceleration
*rate* is the same as after you reach 2000-3000 RPM, because the
current (torque) stay conatant).

At launch the motor power is always low (torque*low RPM), for inatance
at 60 rpm and 175 Nm it is only 175*1*6.28=1.1kW. (To illustrate it
better, at stall full 282A rms flows in, torque is 175 Nm but the
motor power is zero!) the motor voltage is miserable 4V (1100W/282A=4).
You cannot increase the voltage intil higher RPM, or you burn the
winding, with no back EMF it is only milliohms wire resistance).
So assuming for the moment the motor/inverter is 100% efficient,
on the the batery can only supply 1 kW, the motor won't take anymore!
At 1.1 kW and 312V the battery current then cannot exceed 1100/312=3.5A,
As RPM (and so back EMF) rise, so is the motor voltage to stay above
back EMF by at least 4V (ideal case, no losses) so the power
increase. Since the battery voltage assumed the same, battery
current must gradually increase as well to maintain that
power. This battery current will keep rising until either
you hit battery side current limit (this is the cliff where
you go into the constant power mode), or if the battery voltage
   is low, you hit the voltage limit (so the power is still reduced)
before you hit current limit.

My ACRX behaves the same, and so was EV1. It is driver's sensation
that the launch is slow, the torque at the wheels is the same.
If you keep full throttle, the car appears to accelerate faster
and faster. But in fact it is constant, it only appears like that
compared to DC setups (or ICE) where the torque tapers down
from the very beginning and most people got use to it and "expect" that.

Does this make sense?
>
> thanks
> Don
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/

--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different

----- Original Message -----
   From: Dave Cover<mailto:davecover@...>
   To: EVList<mailto:ev@...>
   Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 10:23 AM
   Subject: Re: Tach sensor stuff


   --- Nick Viera <jeepev@...<mailto:jeepev@...>> wrote:
   >
   > Another thing I was looking for was a ring magnet like the kind used
   > with the speed sensor Otmar sells. It seems like that would work just as
   > good (it is a 4-pole magnet, right?), but again I can't seem to find
   > them sold anywhere?
   >

   How about some epoxy and heat shrink? If you have a nice clean section of the
shaft, epoxy two or
   four button magnets evenly around the shaft and then use a small section of
heat shrink as a cover.
   Yes/No?

   Dave Cover

   Holly Carburetor Company makes a set of four magnets that snap into a plastic
holder that has adhesive tape on them.

   After pressing this plastic holders with the magnets on to the drive surface,
it is then band clamp with stainless tie wire that is double up forming a loop
at one end and two wire ends at the other end.

   The double up stainless steel wire is than wrap around the shaft and insert
into the plastic magnet holders grooves.

   The two ends of the wire is than inserted into the wire loop and is pull
tight.  They make a tool for this, but you can use a pliers to pull it tight and
fold it back and tuck the wire ends down next to the shaft.

   Nice and neat, no twisting.  Hoses will hold 150 lbs pressure used this type
of wire clamp.

   These magnets are normally fasten to the drive shaft sending data to a
Electronic Control Holly Carburetor.

   Roland

This makes perfect sense.  Thanks Victor.


Victoria, BC, Canada

See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...] On
Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
Sent: July 14, 2005 12:42 PM
To: ev@...
Subject: Re: Slow Launch

Don Cameron wrote:
> On the new Beetle, I use a Siemens system at 312V with a 5133WS18
> motor and Simovert controller - max torque of 175Nm/129ft-lbs
>
> I modified SIADIS so that it can take up to 250amps current.  I use to
> have it limited to 100amps.
>
> I start off in second gear (an overall ratio of about 8:1) and notice
> when I stomp on the throttle, the car does not have a quick launch but
> gently tapers up the acceleration.  Once it reaches 2500 RPM, the
> acceleration is quick, but off the line it is unexpectedly slow.
>
> I notice on the ammeter that at launch it is only taking in 50-80
> amps, then as the RPMS rise to 2500 rpm, the amps rise to the maximum
> current of 250 amps.
>
> Is this slow launch a factor of the control software? Maybe it is the
> maximum torque of the motor? Is the launch a factor of torque or power?

When you stomp on the throttle, you immediately reach 400A rms motor current
limit and max torque accordingly. Your acceleration
*rate* is the same as after you reach 2000-3000 RPM, because the current
(torque) stay conatant).

At launch the motor power is always low (torque*low RPM), for inatance at 60
rpm and 175 Nm it is only 175*1*6.28=1.1kW. (To illustrate it better, at
stall full 282A rms flows in, torque is 175 Nm but the motor power is zero!)
the motor voltage is miserable 4V (1100W/282A=4).
You cannot increase the voltage intil higher RPM, or you burn the winding,
with no back EMF it is only milliohms wire resistance).
So assuming for the moment the motor/inverter is 100% efficient, on the the
batery can only supply 1 kW, the motor won't take anymore!
At 1.1 kW and 312V the battery current then cannot exceed 1100/312=3.5A, As
RPM (and so back EMF) rise, so is the motor voltage to stay above back EMF
by at least 4V (ideal case, no losses) so the power increase. Since the
battery voltage assumed the same, battery current must gradually increase as
well to maintain that power. This battery current will keep rising until
either you hit battery side current limit (this is the cliff where you go
into the constant power mode), or if the battery voltage
   is low, you hit the voltage limit (so the power is still reduced) before
you hit current limit.

My ACRX behaves the same, and so was EV1. It is driver's sensation that the
launch is slow, the torque at the wheels is the same.
If you keep full throttle, the car appears to accelerate faster and faster.
But in fact it is constant, it only appears like that compared to DC setups
(or ICE) where the torque tapers down from the very beginning and most
people got use to it and "expect" that.

Does this make sense?
>
> thanks
> Don
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/

--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different

I fot couple of those too. My fear is it can get automatically
sent to everyone on the list (until turned off).

Nick Viera wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Don Cameron wrote:
>
>> Everytime I post to the EV Mailing list I get a email to my account from
>> "Dave" and or "Donald" about registering for their spam arrest.
>> Please turn this off - it is just another form of spam - it is also
>> abuse of
>> my private email address.
>
>
> I got some of those as well, though I wasn't sure if anyone else was
> receiving them or not as they appear to be going around off list? They
> are irritating for sure...
>

--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different

Every now and then someone on the list comes across spamarrest and thinks
it is a good idea.
Personally, I don't think it's a good idea, so I just set up a filter for
"spamarrest" and autodelete those messages.  If they don't get my posts,
oh well.

Cheers, Pete.

> Hi,
>
> Don Cameron wrote:
>> Everytime I post to the EV Mailing list I get a email to my account from
>> "Dave" and or "Donald" about registering for their spam arrest.
>> Please turn this off - it is just another form of spam - it is also
>> abuse of
>> my private email address.
>
> I got some of those as well, though I wasn't sure if anyone else was
> receiving them or not as they appear to be going around off list? They
> are irritating for sure...
>
> --
> -Nick
> http://Go.DriveEV.com/
> 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
> ---------------------------
>
>

Regular ice or a few of those freezer pack blocks might work too, though
both would be a bit heaver than dry ice:
http://www.roshgo.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?page=rc01/CTGY/00408

Bill Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...] On
Behalf Of Stu or Jan
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 12:03 PM
To: ev@...
Subject: Air conditioning from the past.

We can learn a lot from Buckminster Fuller.  His Dymaxion car was the first
with A/C.

Not mechanical A/C, he used dry ice.

This raises a very interesting concept.  Could we make 'cold' on the grid
and use it like our batteries?

Could we make dry ice at home during the night and use it the next day for
A/C?

Is there anything else we could use?



BoyntonStu

Don, also 2 suggestions if I may:

1- you have powerful SIADIS - why don't you plot the motor
torque, motor power, motor RPM, motor current and battery current - all
at the same time? SIADIS will use different colors and label
legend for you. You can also save it as ASCII stream and massage
in excel later, but the point is the interaction between these
parameters will be very obvious to you once you see timing
diagram for them all.

2 - do the experiment: pick a hill steep enough so you cannot
climb it at full throttle (pick 3rd or 4th gear and that hill
won't need to be very steep) Stomp on the throttle and watch
the battery current as the car goes up hill and eventually
stops (and then rolls back) while you keep full throttle
(there is no harm doing that). You will see the battery
current approaching zero amps as you slow down to the stop,
this is because your motor power (and so battery power)
approach zero at zero RPM. So when you totally stopped,
the only battery current is your total losses, my guess is
it's less than 5-6A at stall on the incline.


Don Cameron wrote:
> This makes perfect sense.  Thanks Victor.
>
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>

--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different

Hi David and All,

--- David Dymaxion <david_dymaxion@...> wrote:

> Obviously I have some love for the Dymaxion car!

     Same here!! A car way before it's time but I
believe it's time has finally come ;-)


>
> I wonder if it was really only 1000 lbs?

      I agree too, at least twice that as a minimium
even in aluminium.


>
> A caution I would have is how stable was it for high
> speed driving?
> Many cars have a bit of a wedge shape, and/or
> spoilers, to fight rear
> end lift.

    It narrows at the rear a lot so should lessen that,

>
> Why choose an MG or Triumph front end? Those are
> orphan cars you
> haven't been able to buy for many years.
>
> An S10 Blazer could make a good starting point, the
> running gear
> attaches to the frame. You could even leave the
> dash, steering,
> controls, and front seats. The strong frame rails
> would make good
> attachment points for the 3rd wheel. With the
> strength of the truck
> frame you could likely have 50+% weight in
> batteries.

     I'm going with David here too. For a 1000lbs or so
cars the others would work but a larger Dymaxion type
would need a compact light truck frame as a good
start.



> Last random thought: I've wondered if 3 wheel
> steering could tame the
> oversteering tendencies of a 1F2R arrangement.

      Just balancing the weight will do that quite
well. Most 2f1r have too much weight by far on the
rear wheel when loaded and even before the driver gets
in.
      But EV's and 3wh are a match if there ever was
one as the batt weight allows the correct and very low
CG for great handling.



> --- Stu or Jan <stu@...> wrote:
> > I am 'building' a 2F1R hybrid in my imagination.
> >
> > Batteries up front.  75/25 ratio.

      66/34

> >
> > A front end from a Triumph or an MG donor.
> Make/years/sources?

    Most popular yr for best parts supply,
> >
> > A swing axle from a motorcycle rear. No rear
> mechanical brake.

    No, MC wheels arte not designed for side force.
Make a custom one from car componants.


> > Regen
> > braking. How to fit wheel and pulleys?
> Suggestions for a donor
> > rear?

     Custom single side arm. Cavalier one side of it's
rear axle is a good starting point,


> >
> > A 10Kw to 15KW engine with variable pulleys to one
> side of the rear
> > wheel.
> >
> > A 10KW motor with variable pulleys to the other
> side of the rear
> > wheel.

     Power only one side of the wheel. You can use the
e motor as a jack shaft or use a seperate on as the
center of the sprocket must be at the swing arm pivot
or bad problems happen if belt and a pain if chain.


> >
> > Source of pulleys?

     Any 'Bearing shop" Look in Yellow pages under
bearings.


> >
> > Weight of engine/motor beyond rear for traction
> and for exhaust.

      ?? Not smart for balance reasons amoung others.


> >
> > A roll cage frame.  Tear drop aero.  Light weight
> covering using
> > flat panels
> > like a stealth bomber.  Suggestions as to design

    Read archive in Vortex3wheeler. Too much for here
again.


> and tubing
> > dimensions.
> > Suggestions of how to enter/exit.
> >
> > DC motor driven A/C.
> >
> > Anyone else interested in this project?  I sure
> would enjoy some
> > company.
> > Car to be built in Fort Pierce, FL.

      They have EV meeting there all the time!! Go to
one. Fla EAA website
                  HTH's
                     Jerry Dycus

  > >
> > BoyntonStu
>




____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

Hi Mike and All,

--- Mbachandz@... wrote:

>
> In a message dated 7/14/2005 7:30:04 A.M. Mountain
> Standard Time,
> jerry5335@... writes:
>
> > Hey rich,  do you have BLDC motors and controllers
> > that would do nicely
> >  on a MC?
>
> I'd love a good, cost effective, regen,  eff  BLDC
> motor/controller for the Freedom EV!!! It would
> increase  my range by 10-25% depending on use,
> terrain!!
>
>
>
> Jerry,
> What about a BLDC from UQM for your application?
> Biggest problem at first
> glance is the voltage requirements. Of course cost
> in small quantities is
> unknown and they want to sell only to major OEM type
> integrators (e.g. Eaton).
> _http://www.uqm.com/products/specsheet.html_
> (http://www.uqm.com/products/specsheet.html)

    Great motors if you are a millionaire!!
    But I have to be cost effective and my EV drive,
motor,controller, contactors, wiring, curciut breakers
reverse sprockets, belts, bearings, mount,ect complete
budget not including batts is $2k, perferably a lot
less.
    So for now 2 D+D 6.7's, Altrax 7245, gates
polychain, gets me where I need to be.
    But doing the munbers I should be able to build my
own disc motor/controller for even less the the ones
above in the futuire and much less the UQM.
     I wish Rich would make hisBLDC controller
available!!
                  Thanks,
                     Jerry Dycus


>
> Look Under Vehicle Drive Systems
> MPM30 Motor/Generator (regen) 30 kW (46 hp) 250-400
> VDC 8000 rpm 140  N•m
> (103 lbf•ft)
>
> Mike Bachand
> DEVC
>
>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

At 03:09 PM 7/14/2005, you wrote:
>Regular ice or a few of those freezer pack blocks might work too, though
>both would be a bit heaver than dry ice:
>http://www.roshgo.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?page=rc01/CTGY/00408
>
>Bill Dennis

I have not looked up the specific heat numbers or the heat of fusion number
so dry ice may be lighter but water is usually the winner when it comes to
storing heat, especially if cost and safety are also factors.


__________
Andre' B.  Clear Lake, Wi.

On Thu, Jul 14, 2005 at 01:57:55PM -0700, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> Every now and then someone on the list comes across spamarrest and thinks
> it is a good idea.
> Personally, I don't think it's a good idea, so I just set up a filter for
> "spamarrest" and autodelete those messages.  If they don't get my posts,
> oh well.
>
> Cheers, Pete.
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > Don Cameron wrote:
> >> Everytime I post to the EV Mailing list I get a email to my account from
> >> "Dave" and or "Donald" about registering for their spam arrest.

Do people get spam from this list?

I don't recall ever seeing one.

> > But wouldn't it be easier to get a 1-1/2 to 2hp treadmill motor from Burden
or
> > AmSci&Surplus? These are usually spec'd for 100-120vdc, so you could run it
> > directly from the pack, connect it to all 3 units (power steering and
brakes,
> > A/C), and forgo complicated controls except an off circuit to cut power when
> > none of the 3 are in use. Don't know the mechanical setup, but maybe a
> > serpentine belt or even a chain and gears?
> >
>
> Ok, I'm on board with not using an alternator and I have a nice new treadmill
motor sitting in my
> basement. Now how do I control the motor? I will have a high voltage traction
pack, over 300
> volts. And I'd like to be able to vary the speed of the motor, slower on the
highway, faster at
> slow speeds for the power steering.
>
> Dave Cover

300V might would create too high of rpms directly, so a motor controller is best
for your application anyway. You'd probably only need 10A of current, but where
are you going to find a HV/LC controller?! I've seen a Solectria controller
like that on eBay (not now) and I'm sure if you have the money you can find
one, but maybe one of the EVDL gurus can make one? I see these 24V/10A
controller kits on the web, but I doubt you can easily upgrade the voltage just
by swapping out a few parts!

A  ton of ice weighs 2,000 lb.
The latent heat of fusion of ice is 144 BTU's per pound.
Latent heat of fusion is  the amount of heat required to melt ice at 32
degrees F.
Thus 144 x 2000 = 288,000 BTU's would melt a ton of ice.
A 1 ton air conditioner is rated at 12,000 BTU's per hour.
12,000 x 24 hours = 288,000 BTU's or equal to one ton of ice for cooling.

That is where the term TONS of A/C comes from!

For a room, a small 110VAC A/C unit is about 5,500 BTU.
5,500 /  144 =  38 Pounds of ICE equivalent.
Water weighs 8.3 lb per gallon.

If you froze 38/8.3 = 4.57 gallons of water during the night and put it in
your car with a fan over it, you would be carrying a 5,500 BTU A/C unit.

There is a problem remaining, humidity.
Blowing air in a car over water is going to cause humidity.
The way to avoid humidity is to put the ice in a sealed heat sink container
and blow air over the fins.  You then collect the condensate and drain it
outside.  Not too difficult.

BoyntonStu

If you are not part of the solution, you become part of the precipitate.



Heda

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...] On
Behalf Of Andre' Blanchard
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 4:31 PM
To: ev@...
Subject: RE: Air conditioning from the past.

At 03:09 PM 7/14/2005, you wrote:
>Regular ice or a few of those freezer pack blocks might work too, though
>both would be a bit heaver than dry ice:
>http://www.roshgo.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?page=rc01/CTGY/00408
>
>Bill Dennis

I have not looked up the specific heat numbers or the heat of fusion number
so dry ice may be lighter but water is usually the winner when it comes to
storing heat, especially if cost and safety are also factors.


__________
Andre' B.  Clear Lake, Wi.

I am terribly sorry about the SPAM arrest deal. I am taking measures to
remove it, but that is proving difficult.

"Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"

Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <evdl@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 1:57 PM
Subject: Re: Dave and Donald - SpamArrest


> Every now and then someone on the list comes across spamarrest and thinks
> it is a good idea.
> Personally, I don't think it's a good idea, so I just set up a filter for
> "spamarrest" and autodelete those messages.  If they don't get my posts,
> oh well.
>
> Cheers, Pete.
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Don Cameron wrote:
>>> Everytime I post to the EV Mailing list I get a email to my account from
>>> "Dave" and or "Donald" about registering for their spam arrest.
>>> Please turn this off - it is just another form of spam - it is also
>>> abuse of
>>> my private email address.
>>
>> I got some of those as well, though I wasn't sure if anyone else was
>> receiving them or not as they appear to be going around off list? They
>> are irritating for sure...
>>
>> --
>> -Nick
>> http://Go.DriveEV.com/
>> 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
>> ---------------------------
>>
>>
>

SPAM Arrest is an email hijacker program. Under the guise of helping you
stop SPAM, it redirects all your incomming email to their servers, and
replies a message to them to go to their website and log in. It is a great
bunch of BS. I am trying everything I can to get it removed right now. The
only method they list is a long distance telephone number, and of course it
is not answered, just a message. I do humbly apologize to everyone for the
problem.

Dave

----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Austin" <nick@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 1:34 PM
Subject: Re: Dave and Donald - SpamArrest


> On Thu, Jul 14, 2005 at 01:57:55PM -0700, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>> Every now and then someone on the list comes across spamarrest and thinks
>> it is a good idea.
>> Personally, I don't think it's a good idea, so I just set up a filter for
>> "spamarrest" and autodelete those messages.  If they don't get my posts,
>> oh well.
>>
>> Cheers, Pete.
>>
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > Don Cameron wrote:
>> >> Everytime I post to the EV Mailing list I get a email to my account
>> >> from
>> >> "Dave" and or "Donald" about registering for their spam arrest.
>
> Do people get spam from this list?
>
> I don't recall ever seeing one.
>

Just emailed them a week ago they have a couple hundred left.

damon henry <damonhenry@...> wrote:This list is as good a place as I
know of to find them. They are usually
obtained as military surplus, and thanks to the efforts of one of our list
members earlier this year some of us got in on a buy stemming from a surplus
auction.

Unfortunately for you all of us who got in on this buy are just starting to
use our batteries and decididng whether they really fit the application we
were hoping to use them for. Mine are working out great for me, but I
suspect others will find that they don't, and be offering them for sale in
the future.

Since you are still in the design stage I would suggest looking at the sizes
of some of the more commonly used batteries and make sure you build in a
space that will accomodate as many of these choices as is practical. We can
certainly get you dimensions. With the BB600 the only dimension you really
need to worry about is the height which is approx. 9 1/4 inches, but they do
require occasional watering so you will need easy access to the tops of
them. Also they are flooded so they need to be used in a vertical position.

These people used to sell them, but it's been well over a year since I last
checked with them. Still you can see a photo and the dimensions.

http://www.sg-photo.com/nicad_batteries.htm

damon

>From: "Alex Smith"
>Reply-To: ev@...
>To: ev@...
>Subject: Re: New EM pictures and a newbee question.
>Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:33:21 +0000
>
>Hi Guys.
>Just joined at the advice of Jerry Dycus as I am in the process of building
>(well, gathereing the components and doing the design work) an electric
>motorcycle.
>It is to be a 'feet forward', low slung, semi-enclosed machine. While I am
>currently designing the machine to accomodate 5 12volt flooded batteries,
>the design would be much nicer with smaller batteries.
>I've done a good bit of surfing but have been unable to find the BB600's
>you have mentioned. Any leads?
>Alex Smith
>3 wheeled vehicle enthusiast.
>Glider Pilot.
>Sail boat enthusiast.
>EV's fit right in there, don't they?
>
>
>
>
>>From: "damon henry"
>>Reply-To: ev@...
>>To: ev@...
>>Subject: Re: New EM pictures
>>Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:22:09 +0000
>>
>>Actually 44 cells and 150lbs.
>>
>>>From: "Lawrence Rhodes"
>>>Reply-To: ev@...
>>>To:
>>>Subject: Re: New EM pictures
>>>Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 22:59:04 -0700
>>>
>>>So 60 batteries about 200 pounds? 17 miles. Great. If you can do any
>>>Freeway that is great. The bike is so much cleaner now. Seems you have
>>>the chain figured out too. LR........
>>>
>>>
>>>>I snapped a few shots of my bike with the BB600's mounted and added them
>>>>to my webpage.
>>>>
>>>>http://home.comcast.net/~damonhenry/ebike.htm
>>>>
>>>>I am much happier with the way it looks with these batteries. The only
>>>>downside is that people rarely notice that it is electric now :-(
>>>>
>>>>damon
>>>>
>>>
>>
>




Future 72 Super Beetle conversion in progress
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

Damon,
Thanks for the reply and the link. I had actually found that place once
before but couldn't relocate it (what was I thinking).
Your's is good advice from a couple of aspects. I'll size for group 24 lead/
acid and install those. That will give me plenty of room for more advanced
batteries in the future and will risk the least amout of money during the
development stage.
Thanks.
Alex

>From: "damon henry" <damonhenry@...>
>Reply-To: ev@...
>To: ev@...
>Subject: Re: New EM pictures and a newbee question.
>Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 18:14:04 +0000
>
>This list is as good a place as I know of to find them.  They are usually
>obtained as military surplus, and thanks to the efforts of one of our list
>members earlier this year some of us got in on a buy stemming from a
>surplus auction.
>
>Unfortunately for you all of us who got in on this buy are just starting to
>use our batteries and decididng whether they really fit the application we
>were hoping to use them for.  Mine are working out great for me, but I
>suspect others will find that they don't, and be offering them for sale in
>the future.
>
>Since you are still in the design stage I would suggest looking at the
>sizes of some of the more commonly used batteries and make sure you build
>in a space that will accomodate as many of these choices as is practical.
>We can certainly get you dimensions.  With the BB600 the only dimension you
>really need to worry about is the height which is approx. 9 1/4 inches, but
>they do require occasional watering so you will need easy access to the
>tops of them.  Also they are flooded so they need to be used in a vertical
>position.
>
>These people used to sell them, but it's been well over a year since I last
>checked with them.  Still you can see a photo and the dimensions.
>
>http://www.sg-photo.com/nicad_batteries.htm
>
>damon
>
>>From: "Alex Smith" <cdninoh@...>
>>Reply-To: ev@...
>>To: ev@...
>>Subject: Re: New EM pictures and a newbee question.
>>Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:33:21 +0000
>>
>>Hi Guys.
>>Just joined at the advice of Jerry Dycus as I am in the process of
>>building (well, gathereing the components and doing the design work) an
>>electric motorcycle.
>>It is to be a 'feet forward', low slung, semi-enclosed machine. While I am
>>currently designing the machine to accomodate 5 12volt flooded batteries,
>>the design would be much nicer with smaller batteries.
>>I've done a good bit of surfing but have been unable to find the BB600's
>>you have mentioned. Any leads?
>>Alex Smith
>>3 wheeled vehicle enthusiast.
>>Glider Pilot.
>>Sail boat enthusiast.
>>EV's fit right in there, don't they?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>From: "damon henry" <damonhenry@...>
>>>Reply-To: ev@...
>>>To: ev@...
>>>Subject: Re: New EM pictures
>>>Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:22:09 +0000
>>>
>>>Actually 44 cells and 150lbs.
>>>
>>>>From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
>>>>Reply-To: ev@...
>>>>To: <ev@...>
>>>>Subject: Re: New EM pictures
>>>>Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 22:59:04 -0700
>>>>
>>>>So 60 batteries about 200 pounds?  17 miles.  Great.  If you can do any
>>>>Freeway that is great.  The bike is so much cleaner now.  Seems you have
>>>>the chain figured out too.  LR........
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I snapped a few shots of my bike with the BB600's mounted and added
>>>>>them to my webpage.
>>>>>
>>>>>http://home.comcast.net/~damonhenry/ebike.htm
>>>>>
>>>>>I am much happier with the way it looks with these batteries.  The only
>>>>>downside is that people rarely notice that it is electric now :-(
>>>>>
>>>>>damon
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

As I'm new at this, is $10 per 1.2v 34a/h cell a good price?
Alex


>From: Bruce Weisenberger <darnthedog@...>
>Reply-To: ev@...
>To: ev@...
>Subject: Re: New EM pictures and a newbee question.
>Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 14:21:00 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Just emailed them a week ago they have a couple hundred left.
>
>damon henry <damonhenry@...> wrote:This list is as good a place as
>I know of to find them. They are usually
>obtained as military surplus, and thanks to the efforts of one of our list
>members earlier this year some of us got in on a buy stemming from a
>surplus
>auction.
>
>Unfortunately for you all of us who got in on this buy are just starting to
>use our batteries and decididng whether they really fit the application we
>were hoping to use them for. Mine are working out great for me, but I
>suspect others will find that they don't, and be offering them for sale in
>the future.
>
>Since you are still in the design stage I would suggest looking at the
>sizes
>of some of the more commonly used batteries and make sure you build in a
>space that will accomodate as many of these choices as is practical. We can
>certainly get you dimensions. With the BB600 the only dimension you really
>need to worry about is the height which is approx. 9 1/4 inches, but they
>do
>require occasional watering so you will need easy access to the tops of
>them. Also they are flooded so they need to be used in a vertical position.
>
>These people used to sell them, but it's been well over a year since I last
>checked with them. Still you can see a photo and the dimensions.
>
>http://www.sg-photo.com/nicad_batteries.htm
>
>damon
>
> >From: "Alex Smith"
> >Reply-To: ev@...
> >To: ev@...
> >Subject: Re: New EM pictures and a newbee question.
> >Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:33:21 +0000
> >
> >Hi Guys.
> >Just joined at the advice of Jerry Dycus as I am in the process of
>building
> >(well, gathereing the components and doing the design work) an electric
> >motorcycle.
> >It is to be a 'feet forward', low slung, semi-enclosed machine. While I
>am
> >currently designing the machine to accomodate 5 12volt flooded batteries,
> >the design would be much nicer with smaller batteries.
> >I've done a good bit of surfing but have been unable to find the BB600's
> >you have mentioned. Any leads?
> >Alex Smith
> >3 wheeled vehicle enthusiast.
> >Glider Pilot.
> >Sail boat enthusiast.
> >EV's fit right in there, don't they?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>From: "damon henry"
> >>Reply-To: ev@...
> >>To: ev@...
> >>Subject: Re: New EM pictures
> >>Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:22:09 +0000
> >>
> >>Actually 44 cells and 150lbs.
> >>
> >>>From: "Lawrence Rhodes"
> >>>Reply-To: ev@...
> >>>To:
> >>>Subject: Re: New EM pictures
> >>>Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 22:59:04 -0700
> >>>
> >>>So 60 batteries about 200 pounds? 17 miles. Great. If you can do any
> >>>Freeway that is great. The bike is so much cleaner now. Seems you have
> >>>the chain figured out too. LR........
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>I snapped a few shots of my bike with the BB600's mounted and added
>them
> >>>>to my webpage.
> >>>>
> >>>>http://home.comcast.net/~damonhenry/ebike.htm
> >>>>
> >>>>I am much happier with the way it looks with these batteries. The only
> >>>>downside is that people rarely notice that it is electric now :-(
> >>>>
> >>>>damon
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
>
>
>
>
>Future 72 Super Beetle conversion in progress
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>http://mail.yahoo.com
>

Compared to their original price, yes. However, you will likely be able to
find them for much less.

I, for example, have a dozen unopened cases of them (38 cells per case)
that I'll be selling one way or another, at a couple bucks each to recover
my original costs (which included a substantial freight charge).  I've
verified they're very good cells and they work well, but don't give quite
enough current for my purposes.

I've talked to Noel at SG Photo (linked below) and most of the cells she
sells are Marathons, which are reported to deliver much higher currents
than what I've been able to get out of the Safts.  If you want/need much
more than 1000A, they may be worth the money. I'm considering that avenue,
but at the moment I think I'll go back to planning on Orbitals.

   --chris




Alex Smith said:
> As I'm new at this, is $10 per 1.2v 34a/h cell a good price?
> Alex
>
>
>>From: Bruce Weisenberger <darnthedog@...>
>>Reply-To: ev@...
>>To: ev@...
>>Subject: Re: New EM pictures and a newbee question.
>>Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 14:21:00 -0700 (PDT)
>>
>>Just emailed them a week ago they have a couple hundred left.
>>
>>damon henry <damonhenry@...> wrote:This list is as good a place
>> as
>>I know of to find them. They are usually
>>obtained as military surplus, and thanks to the efforts of one of our
>> list
>>members earlier this year some of us got in on a buy stemming from a
>>surplus
>>auction.
>>
>>Unfortunately for you all of us who got in on this buy are just starting
>> to
>>use our batteries and decididng whether they really fit the application
>> we
>>were hoping to use them for. Mine are working out great for me, but I
>>suspect others will find that they don't, and be offering them for sale
>> in
>>the future.
>>
>>Since you are still in the design stage I would suggest looking at the
>>sizes
>>of some of the more commonly used batteries and make sure you build in a
>>space that will accomodate as many of these choices as is practical. We
>> can
>>certainly get you dimensions. With the BB600 the only dimension you
>> really
>>need to worry about is the height which is approx. 9 1/4 inches, but they
>>do
>>require occasional watering so you will need easy access to the tops of
>>them. Also they are flooded so they need to be used in a vertical
>> position.
>>
>>These people used to sell them, but it's been well over a year since I
>> last
>>checked with them. Still you can see a photo and the dimensions.
>>
>>http://www.sg-photo.com/nicad_batteries.htm
>>
>>damon
>>
>> >From: "Alex Smith"
>> >Reply-To: ev@...
>> >To: ev@...
>> >Subject: Re: New EM pictures and a newbee question.
>> >Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:33:21 +0000
>> >
>> >Hi Guys.
>> >Just joined at the advice of Jerry Dycus as I am in the process of
>>building
>> >(well, gathereing the components and doing the design work) an electric
>> >motorcycle.
>> >It is to be a 'feet forward', low slung, semi-enclosed machine. While I
>>am
>> >currently designing the machine to accomodate 5 12volt flooded
>> batteries,
>> >the design would be much nicer with smaller batteries.
>> >I've done a good bit of surfing but have been unable to find the
>> BB600's
>> >you have mentioned. Any leads?
>> >Alex Smith
>> >3 wheeled vehicle enthusiast.
>> >Glider Pilot.
>> >Sail boat enthusiast.
>> >EV's fit right in there, don't they?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >>From: "damon henry"
>> >>Reply-To: ev@...
>> >>To: ev@...
>> >>Subject: Re: New EM pictures
>> >>Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:22:09 +0000
>> >>
>> >>Actually 44 cells and 150lbs.
>> >>
>> >>>From: "Lawrence Rhodes"
>> >>>Reply-To: ev@...
>> >>>To:
>> >>>Subject: Re: New EM pictures
>> >>>Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 22:59:04 -0700
>> >>>
>> >>>So 60 batteries about 200 pounds? 17 miles. Great. If you can do any
>> >>>Freeway that is great. The bike is so much cleaner now. Seems you
>> have
>> >>>the chain figured out too. LR........
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>>I snapped a few shots of my bike with the BB600's mounted and added
>>them
>> >>>>to my webpage.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>http://home.comcast.net/~damonhenry/ebike.htm
>> >>>>
>> >>>>I am much happier with the way it looks with these batteries. The
>> only
>> >>>>downside is that people rarely notice that it is electric now :-(
>> >>>>
>> >>>>damon
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Future 72 Super Beetle conversion in progress
>>__________________________________________________
>>Do You Yahoo!?
>>Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>http://mail.yahoo.com
>>
>
>

EV Digest 4504

Topics covered in this issue include:

   1) Re: New EM pictures
	 by "damon henry" <damonhenry@...>
   2) Burn it out John...Don't burn it out!
	 by John Wayland <dat1200@...>
   3) RE: Dymaxion, etc.
	 by Michael Hurley <mephit@...>
   4) Re: MC EV drive Set ups / eff Re: Motor cycle for electric
	 by Mbachandz@...
   5) Singer project car.  Looks very light.
	 by "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
   6) Toyota agrees to stop crushing RAV4 EVs !!!
	 by "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
   7) RE: Slow Launch
	 by "Don Cameron" <ev@...>
   8) Re: Air conditioner etc
	 by Dave Cover <davecover@...>
   9) Re: Tach sensor stuff
	 by Dave Cover <davecover@...>
  10) A little OT ...Finally a bit of good news!
	 by Tom Watson <palomineo@...>
  11) Re: how many amps?
	 by Ryan Stotts <stotts.ryan@...>
  12) Re: Stupid questions
	 by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
  13) Re: DC/DC
	 by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
  14) Dave and Donald  - SpamArrest
	 by "Don Cameron" <ev@...>
  15) Re: ICCU Ultracap Breakthrough. Will this help with SCR controller
	   efficiency?
	 by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
  16) Re: Slow Launch
	 by Ryan Stotts <stotts.ryan@...>
  17) Re: New EM pictures
	 by "damon henry" <damonhenry@...>
  18) Re: New EM pictures and a newbee question.
	 by "Alex Smith" <cdninoh@...>
  19) Re: Air conditioner etc
	 by "Paul G." <paul-g@...>
  20) Re: DC/DC
	 by "Paul G." <paul-g@...>
  21) Re: Dymaxion, etc.
	 by David Dymaxion <david_dymaxion@...>
  22) Re: New EM pictures and a newbee question.
	 by "damon henry" <damonhenry@...>
  23) Re: Electric '59 MGA Roadster for Sale
	 by "Mark Hanson" <mhanson@...>

Actually 44 cells and 150lbs.

>From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
>Reply-To: ev@...
>To: <ev@...>
>Subject: Re: New EM pictures
>Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 22:59:04 -0700
>
>So 60 batteries about 200 pounds?  17 miles.  Great.  If you can do any
>Freeway that is great.  The bike is so much cleaner now.  Seems you have
>the chain figured out too.  LR........
>
>
>>I snapped a few shots of my bike with the BB600's mounted and added them
>>to my webpage.
>>
>>http://home.comcast.net/~damonhenry/ebike.htm
>>
>>I am much happier with the way it looks with these batteries.  The only
>>downside is that people rarely notice that it is electric now :-(
>>
>>damon
>>
>

Hello to All,

About the video of Seattle Electric Vehicle Association's '84 EVent, Ryan Stotts
wrote:

> http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/videos/'84%20SEVA%20Blue%20Meanie.MOV (32 megs)
>
> On this one, when Bill Clarke gets in the car, someone says "burn it
> out John".  Is it Bill Clarke who then says "Don't burn it out..."?
> LOL!

Yes, that's Bill saying that. The other voice from the crowd that precipitated
Bill's
response "burn it out John", is from my best friend at that time, Dave. He and I
towed
the car up from Portland to that SEVA EVent with his nearly new, sparkling clean
Ford crew
cab pickup. When we pulled onto the scene, his slick truck towing his
immaculately
detailed trailer with the gleaming little blue Datsun brought forth an instant
crowd of
EVers and EV fans to check out the strangers who blew in unannounced from
Oregon. One guy,
assuming we had veered off course on our way to some kind of hotrod show & shine
thing,
told us we were at the wrong spot, as 'this' was an electric car EVent, not a
car club
show. At the time EVs were more typically cast away cars, usually unpopular
models, and
had lots of duct tape, bailing wire, and lots of batteries but very little spit
and
polish. I guess Blue Meanie was a little too showy to be an EV :-) We assured
them it
'was' an electric car, then off-loaded it. I did an immediate tire squealing
launch,
followed by a little stereo system display, which again attracted a small
crowd....seems
like EVs weren't supposed to act this way, and for that matter, neither should
EVers. Back
then, the average EVer was kind of an eco-nerd, typically 'not' into cars, more
into
rolling science projects, but with their heart and mind in the right spot,
environmentally
speaking. I was an anomaly. I loved cars, fast, tire smoking, eye catching, hard
accelerating, tight cornering performance cars. I was also into all things
electrical, was
totally into EVs, and shared the eco-nerds concerns over environmental issues.
Where these
guys wanted to demonstrate that EVs could handle an average person's daily
commuting
needs, I wanted to make sure they didn't leave this EVent thinking all EVs were
slow,
dull, and boring.

The purpose of the Long Distance Rally was to show the general public that EVs
could go
the distance...in fact, SEVA had a long, large banner flowing in the gentle
breeze that
read 'Electric Cars, we can go the Distance!' Because the contest was to see who
could go
the farthest on one charge, the route went around Lake Union (SEVA members,
please correct
me if I'm wrong about this) and had the EVs crawling about at hair raising
speeds up to a
blistering 35 mph! We'd pick up interested passengers, then make the approximate
2 mile
loop around the lake, then pull back into the parking area to discharge our
passengers and
pick up new ones, then repeat the procedure. Most all of the other EVers
participating
were focused on driving as sedately as possible and their EVs had lots of
batteries, like
1200 lbs. of golf car batteries. Even the small Renault Le Car conversions had
16 of them.
Most of the conversions had no back seat...replaced by batteries, and fun stuff
like
stereos, a nice interior, and mag wheels were none existent. OK...Steve Lough
was ahead of
his time with a computer setup in his Ion One EV.

I showed up with my Datsun, lowered, sway bars, American Racing four spoke mags,
gleaming
glossed up paint, a state of the art (for that era) sound system, tidy interior
(no
batteries visible anywhere), hi pro euro Cibe' headlights and euro issued front
and rear
lenses, and with count 'em, just 8 batteries at a whopping 48 volts. Surely,
with half the
number of batteries that the shorter distance EVs had, my car didn't  stand a
chance for
the distance thing, right?  The drive motor was pretty typical for that period,
an
aircraft starter-generator, a GE model 2CM77. This compound wound motor made my
1850 lb.
EV fly, even at just 48 volts, thanks to an aggressive 3 step contactor
controller. The
first speed paralleled the pack at 24 volts through a resistor, then 24 volts
straight,
then 48 volts (batteries all in series) straight...not too smooth, but a heavy
right foot
brought on the full 48 volts instantly and sent over 1000 amps into the motor
configured
to series-wound mode....tons of torque, instant rear tire ignition!  Any wonder
why my wet
cells only lasted 6 months? To cruise though at 35 mph, the pack was back at 48V
and the
motor's shunt field was engaged. To slow down, 24V was selected in shunt mode,
so coming
off higher speeds at 48V mode would bring on strong regen...cool!

So here we were, trying to convince the general public that EVs were cool, hip,
and a good
alternative to the gas car, then we'd poke around like so many golf carts,
taking off from
a stop sign like we had an egg under our foot, driving as if the car wouldn't
get out of
its own way, etc., etc. I couldn't put up with that notion, and every time
someone would
ask 'How does this car do on acceleration? Will it do 40 mph?"...I'd floor the
damn thing,
smoke the tires, throw them back in the seat, and take off...screw that saving
energy
thing, these people had to know EVs could move! Needless to say, I caused quite
a bit of
disruption with my antics and got lots of scowls from the other EVers. The
general public
though, were all waiting in line for a ride in the little tire smoking EV, and
evidently
from that news cast the video came from, so were the TV reporters.

So there you have it, the background to the comments "burn it out
John"....."Don't burn it
out..."

Surprisingly, my little 'ol Datsun, even after all that tire spinning stuff,
managed 54
miles on one charge and was in the top 1/3 of the competitors that day. The '84
SEVA EV
Rally was the beginning of a long friendship with Steve Lough and others, though
at first
I don't think any of them knew what to do with me :-) My friend Dave had
Leukemia and some
time after, passed away. We had planned on that road trip being one of our last
fun EV
jaunts together, so it has a special place in my heart.

> I like that part at the end when your reeling out that extension cord
> out of where the fuel filler was and it switches back to that news
> anchor woman.  The expression on her face is priceless.  Her eyes are
> huge!  I think that scene blew her mind.  :)

Oh yes, the 'ol retractable charging cord. That was back in my more formative,
learning
years, before I really understood things like kilowatts, power consumption, and
the like.
That was taken from one of those retractable garage work lights, you know, the
round reel
that holds so many feet of 18 gauge power wire to run a 100 watt light bulb! I
'thought'
it was a nifty idea...too bad I didn't fully think it out. At just 18 gauge, you
can only
guess how hot it got trying to pass the needed amps for charging an EV...can you
say 'melt
down'? I especially like the cheesy two prong dime store plug I had on it. Oh
well, at least
I've gotten better at designing and building my EVs since then :-)

My apologies for the poor video quality on this one, but that's the way the
video tape
looks. It was a copy, of a copy, of a copy that someone who had a VCR (they were
still
gaining in popularity back in eary '84) recorded off that evening's Seattle area
evening
news. I received that tape ten years after that fun day, and was shocked that
such great
historical footage was captured. I think it's the only images I have of when
Blue Meanie
had four of its 8 golf car batteries under the hood, and had the aircraft
generator and all
that other 'advanced electrical stuff' in there ;-)


> http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/videos/'95%20Blue%20Meanie.MOV (65 megs)
> That's one of the best EV related movies I've ever seen.  Thanks for
> uploading that one.

Thanks for the compliment. For those who haven't seen that one, it's actually
three
individual videos all combined. We plan on making them available as three
separate videos,
and, will make shorter (smaller file size) video clips of the better parts
available for
dial-up viewers, too.

See Ya....John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland

At 8:03 AM -0700 on 7/14/05, Don Cameron wrote:

>The teardrop shape is not necessarily the best aerodynamic shape for an
>automobile. You must take into consideration ground effects.  You may want
>to pick up a couple of newer books on vehicle aerodynamics if you really
>want to make it aerodynamic.

Also, side-wind aerodynamics, and multi-direction gusts.
--


					 Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."

"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in
sort of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand
naked women screaming and throwing little pickles
at you?"

"..No."

"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
					 - Real Genius

In a message dated 7/14/2005 7:30:04 A.M. Mountain Standard Time,
jerry5335@... writes:

> Hey rich,  do you have BLDC motors and controllers
> that would do nicely
>  on a MC?

I'd love a good, cost effective, regen,  eff  BLDC
motor/controller for the Freedom EV!!! It would
increase  my range by 10-25% depending on use,
terrain!!



Jerry,
What about a BLDC from UQM for your application? Biggest problem at first
glance is the voltage requirements. Of course cost in small quantities is
unknown and they want to sell only to major OEM type integrators (e.g. Eaton).
_http://www.uqm.com/products/specsheet.html_
(http://www.uqm.com/products/specsheet.html)

Look Under Vehicle Drive Systems
MPM30 Motor/Generator (regen) 30 kW (46 hp) 250-400 VDC 8000 rpm 140  N•m
(103 lbf•ft)

Mike Bachand
DEVC

This car would make a great EV.  LR.........In Oakland CA
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4561012932&categor\
y=6314&ssPageName=WDVW&rd=1
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
bassoon@...
415-821-3519

From: RemyC <electrifyingtimes@...>
Subject: Toyota agrees to stop crushing RAV4 EVs !!!

From:
Josh Landess
joshl1@ mail.com

Big news from DontCrush.com


Wed, 13 Jul 2005
Marc Geller marc@ dybbuk.com wrote:

Greetings Dontcrush.com supporters!

Once again, we have such amazing news!!! But first, we'd like to thank
Toyota of Huntington Beach for their hospitality- they even played music for
us, and held up signs of their own as we protested in front of their
building!!!

And, it seems we've had the desired effect! Drumroll.

Toyota has agreed to stop crushing salable, useable RAV4 EVs!!!! With
several hundred cars left out there, this is dontcrush.com's biggest win
yet, and we applaud Toyota's choice to be responsive to their customers!!!

During the course of a 2-hour meeting with Toyota today, the dontcrush.com
negotiating team worked out the following points, which will be finalized in
writing over the next few weeks:

No more usable cars will be crushed- the definition of "usable" is still to
be worked out.

Current lessees shall have the option to continually renew their leases as
long as the vehicle is usable, as defined by Toyota and the consumer.

Toyota will re-examine their policy of not selling fleet RAVs and attempt to
give current lessees the option to purchase their vehicles outright.

Toyota will create a process by which RAV4 EVs deemed not salable or usable
will be dismantled for parts to be used by the remaining vehicles.

Vehicles neither re-leased nor purchased will continue to be used; they will
be sold to the public, used in the Toyota corporate fleet or made available
for use by non-profit organizations.

The specifics of these points will continue to be worked out by
dontcrush.com, but this is a huge victory!!! We'd like to thank everyone
involved in supporting us through writing letters, providing statements,
donations etc. Until these steps are finalized and put in  writing, however,
it's important that we continue our activity and show Toyota that we indeed
want to buy their products. To that end, we will be at Power Toyota of
Cerritos on Saturday, July 16, 2005, from 1-3pm:

Power Toyota Cerritos
(562) 860-6561
(714) 828-5960
18700 Studebaker Rd
Cerritos, CA 90703

Directions

Come join us in our ongoing victory- we look forward to seeing you there,
and will continue to keep you posted!

The dontcrush.com team

Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
bassoon@...
415-821-3519

Motor and controller are rated to 78kW and 100kw respectively.

The key here is that from 0-2500 RPM the voltage maybe sags to 310volts, but
the amperage is slowly rising from 0 up to 250 amps, so there is no way the
controller or motor is at its max power during this slow rise.


Victoria, BC, Canada

See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...] On
Behalf Of Christopher Zach
Sent: July 14, 2005 8:14 AM
To: ev@...
Subject: Re: Slow Launch

Might be life with vector control AC motors. I noticed that the Prizm tends
to be a bit slow up to 10mph; it's certainly not pulling it's max of 50kw
(200a@300v). Once you get beyond that though it accelerates quickly and
keeps on rocking up to about 100mph.

This is a single speed car that weighs a bit more than your car. That said,
is your motor and controller rated to 50+kw? (250amps at what
voltage?)

Chris


Don Cameron wrote:
> I start off in second gear (an overall ratio of about 8:1) and notice
> when I stomp on the throttle, the car does not have a quick launch but
> gently tapers up the acceleration.  Once it reaches 2500 RPM, the
> acceleration is quick, but off the line it is unexpectedly slow.
>
> I notice on the ammeter that at launch it is only taking in 50-80
> amps, then as the RPMS rise to 2500 rpm, the amps rise to the maximum
> current of 250 amps.

--- cowtown@... wrote:
>
> But wouldn't it be easier to get a 1-1/2 to 2hp treadmill motor from Burden or
> AmSci&Surplus? These are usually spec'd for 100-120vdc, so you could run it
> directly from the pack, connect it to all 3 units (power steering and brakes,
> A/C), and forgo complicated controls except an off circuit to cut power when
> none of the 3 are in use. Don't know the mechanical setup, but maybe a
> serpentine belt or even a chain and gears?
>

Ok, I'm on board with not using an alternator and I have a nice new treadmill
motor sitting in my
basement. Now how do I control the motor? I will have a high voltage traction
pack, over 300
volts. And I'd like to be able to vary the speed of the motor, slower on the
highway, faster at
slow speeds for the power steering.

Dave Cover

--- Nick Viera <jeepev@...> wrote:
>
> Another thing I was looking for was a ring magnet like the kind used
> with the speed sensor Otmar sells. It seems like that would work just as
> good (it is a 4-pole magnet, right?), but again I can't seem to find
> them sold anywhere?
>

How about some epoxy and heat shrink? If you have a nice clean section of the
shaft, epoxy two or
four button magnets evenly around the shaft and then use a small section of
heatshrink as a cover.
Yes/No?

Dave Cover

Hi all
I thought this was excellent news!

It might be usefull if we all sent some thank you
emails to Toyota for listening to reason! Lets try and
make them feel really good about their decision!  Send
to corporate president Jim Press ...
jim_press@...
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 18:53:09 -0700
From: Marc Geller <marc@...>
Subject: Big news from DontCrush.com

Greetings Dontcrush.com supporters!

Once again, we have such amazing news!!! But first,
we’d like to thank Toyota of Huntington Beach for
their hospitality- they even played music for us, and
held up signs of their own as we protested in front of
their building!!!

And, it seems we’ve had the desired effect! Drumroll…

Toyota has agreed to stop crushing salable, useable
RAV4 EVs!!!! With several hundred cars left out there,
this is dontcrush.com’s biggest win yet, and we
applaud Toyota’s choice to be responsive to their
customers!!!

During the course of a 2-hour meeting with Toyota
today, the dontcrush.com negotiating team worked out
the following points, which will be finalized in
writing over the next few weeks:

No more usable cars will be crushed- the definition of
“usable” is still to be worked out.  Current lessees
shall have the option to continually renew their
leases as long as the vehicle is usable, as defined by
Toyota and the consumer.

Toyota will re-examine their policy of not selling
fleet RAVs and attempt to give current lessees the
option to purchase their vehicles
outright.

Toyota will create a process by which RAV4 EVs deemed
not salable or usable will be dismantled for parts to
be used by the remaining vehicles.
Vehicles neither re-leased nor purchased will continue
to be used; they will be sold to the public, used in
the Toyota corporate fleet or made available for use
by non-profit organizations.

The specifics of these points will continue to be
worked out by dontcrush.com, but this is a huge
victory!!! We’d like to thank everyone involved in
supporting us through writing letters, providing
statements, donations etc. Until these steps are
finalized and put in writing, however, it’s important
that we continue our activity and show Toyota that we
indeed want to buy their products. To that end,
we will be at Power Toyota of Cerritos on Saturday,
July 16, 2005, from 1-3pm:

Power Toyota Cerritos
(562) 860-6561
(714) 828-5960
18700 Studebaker Rd
Cerritos, CA 90703

Come join us in our ongoing victory- we look forward
to seeing you there, and will continue to keep you
posted!

The dontcrush.com team

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

Iron Mountain Films wrote:

> How many amps at 120 volts can a stock adc 8" motor take?

No problem with the amps, just over ~170 volts the motor might start
arcing internally.  You can set the Zilla to limit the motor to that.


>Does voltage sag from batteries jack up the amperage that a motor sees?

I'd imagine when the batteries start sagging, so does the power they
are putting out.

>I am trying to choose a new controller and am leaning toward a 1K zilla LV.

Good choice.

Is this controller overkill?

Not at all.


> On my next battery purchase I want to go to 136 volts 17) x 8v. and I am
wondering where I would set the amps limit.

Since you are using flooded lead acid batteries, you might need to set
the motor amps in the Zilla to 400 amps.  With AGM's.. you could give
the motor full amps..


> Currently I have trouble just getting to freeway speeds I pull 300 350 battery
>amps sometimes less trying to accelerate.

I'd say it's a combination of the 96v pack and the wounded Curtis.


>Will a Zilla change that or are the batteries the limiting factor?

The Zilla will help a lot.  The higher voltage pack(96->132) will help
a lot.  The more voltage the better.  The Zilla also gives you a lot
of room to grow and has a lot of potential.  Not to mention being
water cooled, makes it very reliable.

Lee Hart wrote:
>> Detroit has proven to be amazingly adept at building cheap motors
>> that quickly wear out, and are expensive and difficult to fix.
>> It is common for one or more of them to fail before the ICE needs
>> rebuilding. So, my gloomy side says they will find a way to make
>> electric motors just as unreliable and expensive to fix.

Ryan Stotts wrote:
> It's unreal the ICE can last as long as they do all things
> considered...
>
> When I look at the Electric Ranger motor I think, could they have made
> it any more bizarre and proprietary? At least on the outside anyways.
> Very non standard and specialized. Maybe it's all smoke and mirrors?

I think it is an auto company mindset. In engineering, we call it NIH
(Not Invented Here) syndrome. Most large companies get this disease
sooner or later. It means they think that because they are an expert at
one thing, they are therefore experts at everything. So they ignore all
other technologies from outside their company as inferior and backwards.

Suppose there is a company building electric motors. They've been doing
it forever, and have produced untold millions of motors. They are a
technology leader in their industry, and their products are widely known
to be affordable, reliable, and last for years of continuous operation.
Their engineers have been tweaking their designs for so long that they
have them just about perfect; when a new application comes along, they
can quickly and accurately predict what changes to make to suit it.

Now, an automaker comes up with a need for such a motor. They buy one of
these company's motors for evaluation. The auto engineers are used to
seeing cheap automotive-grade motors, that only need to work for a few
hours (100,000 miles of driving at 50 mph average is only 2000 hours =
12 weeks, and few electric motors in a car run continuously). They laugh
at the design. "Look at the size of those bearings -- they are way too
big! And why all these extra bits of insulation? A waste of money!
What's the cooling for? We don't need that! Look, they glued the
windings in place; what a waste! How can this motor company survive with
such overbuilt junk!"

And so, being ignorant of WHY the commercial motor was built that way,
they proceed to design their own motor. It comes out looking lumpy and
crude, and amateurish. But to them, it's beautiful and perfect, because
it's their design. That's NIH at work.

So, it's not some nefarious plot to deliberately build inferior motors
to enhance service revenue. They build poor motors because they don't
know any better, and won't learn (except the hard way, from many years
of consequences).
--
Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has! -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

Nick Viera wrote:
> keep your DC/DC converter running all the time if you can...
> so you can avoid having a weak 12-volt system that you always
> have to worry about.

Your present ICE's 12-volt system is weak; its voltage wanders all over
the place depending on load and engine speed. Do you worry about it?

None of the loads need a precise 12 volts. They are all designed to
expect and allow for considerable voltage variations.

John Wayland is going to write:
> But with a huge, powerful DC/DC you can have bright lights, fast
> wipers, and powerful stereos. The 12v system is rock solid, unlike
> the feeble wimpy antiquated system in normal cars. EVs can be
> vastly better than ICEs!

And he's right; you can choose to make your EV better than an ICE. But
this is a "want", not a "need". You're fixing a "problem" that most
people do not recognize as one.

Ryan Stotts wrote:
> What if you did away with the 12V accessory battery and only ran the
> DC/DC to power your 12V accessories?

You can do this. You'll need a DC/DC powerful enough to handle the peak
current for headlight inrush and motor starting without the voltage
sagging so low that the clock or radio loses its data. The peak current
is often 5-10 times the normal current -- so if you need 20 amps
continuous, you may need a 100 amp DC/DC to handle the peaks.

You can reduce this overkill by using a very large filter capacitor in
place of the battery. It will take something in the *farads* range, not
microfarads. Huge electrolytics, or the supercapacitors now becoming
available could be a good candidate for this.
--
Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has! -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

Everytime I post to the EV Mailing list I get a email to my account from
"Dave" and or "Donald" about registering for their spam arrest.

Please turn this off - it is just another form of spam - it is also abuse of
my private email address.

thanks
Don

toltec wrote:
> well, the analogies are all fine and good, and they provide a
> generalized overview of the FUNCTION the components are providing,
> but I guess the problem for me is that they don't seem explicit
> enough about the actual electron movements to have "locked it in"
> for me, so to speak, etc...

A capacitor consists of two electrical conductors, with an insulator
between them. Typically, there are two very thin, very large area foil
plates, with a very thin insulating material between them.

When you feed current in one plate and out the other, the electrons
cannot get thru the insulator. They "pile up" on one plate, and the
other develops a matching set of "holes" where an electron would
normally be. The electrons and holes attract each other (opposite
charges attract), so they all wind up facing each other on each side of
the insulator, like opposing armies.

The external circuit needs to do work to force electrons into this
situation. Mechanically, it's like compressing a spring to force them
in.
Once charged, if you provide a path for the current to flow, the
electrons will rush to go thru this path to reach the holes on the other
side. Now the capacitor is *supplying* current. If the insulator between
plates is perfect and there resistance of the plates themselves was
zero, the capacitor would lose no energy; you'd get back every bit that
you put in. In practice, we can come close but never get it all.

Is that helpful? If not, just get any textbook on the subject, and you
can learn all you want on capacitors.
--
Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has! -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

Don Cameron wrote:

> I start off in second gear

Launch it in first and see how it takes off!  Give it a combo full
throttle / clutch release.. ;)

Or if you feel like breaking something, from a standing still, take it
up to about 5 or 6 thousand rpm and dump the clutch and floor it at
the same time and see how it launches with a little momentum behind
it... :)


Or crank your voltage/amps limits to the max...

Thanks for the feedback, it's been a lot of fun and I've actually had many
battery configurations on this bike.  My biggest limitation right now is
actually my controller.  It's only a 48v controller and I am cheating that
as much as I can by slipping in 4 extra cells bringing me up to ~53v
nominal.  The controller protects itself by not turning on if it sees more
than 60v and after a full charge my pack eventually settles down to around
58v.  If I want to immediately take off after a full charge I have to bleed
some of the surface voltage off using a lightbulb before my controller will
turn on.  If I had a 72v controller I would probably add at least 10 more
cells.

Believe me, noone has found more creative ways of mounting more batteries on
the bike than me, but to date this is my favorite configuration.  Also the
gas tank is not just wasted space.  I cut the bottom out and I have a Hawker
under there running my 12v systems as well as some relays and fuses.  I have
more goodies slated to go under there as well.  I like the look of the tank,
and am pretty determined to leave that piece as is.

I was out for a ride on the 4th of July scouting for places to launch my
canoe.  I was sitting at a light waiting to turn left when I overheard a
fireworks stand sign waiver talking to his buddy on his walkie talkie.  The
conversation went something like this.

"...I don't know, it has a gas tank, but it's got no exhaust pipes...  it
sure is quiet."

I wasn't in a position to pull over and do a little show and tell, but it
made me grin...

damon

>From: Rush <Rush@...>
>To: damonhenry@...
>Subject: Re: New EM pictures
>Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 09:15:26 -0700
>
>Damon,
>
>Great project, but it looks like you could get some more batteries in the
>existing 'empty' spaces you have. It also looks like you are using an
>existing battery box and therefore are locked into a predefined space for
>your batteries. Don't make the container define your battery area.
>
>This is just a suggestion, but you could remove the gas tank and also the
>battery box below it and start looking at the empty space in a new way. All
>the cells don't have to line up perfectly, you can make a battery holder
>that will maximize the space you have. You might have to step some of them
>up and down and around the support tubes, but the space gained might be
>worth the voltage/amp gain.  Some of the battery interconnects might have
>to be individually done, but you might be able to almost double the amount
>of bats in the forward area.
>
>Hope this helps,
>
>Rush
>Tucson AZ
>www.ironandwood.org
>
>

Hi Guys.
Just joined at the advice of Jerry Dycus as I am in the process of building
(well, gathereing the components and doing the design work) an electric
motorcycle.
It is to be a 'feet forward', low slung, semi-enclosed machine. While I am
currently designing the machine to accomodate 5 12volt flooded batteries,
the design would be much nicer with smaller batteries.
I've done a good bit of surfing but have been unable to find the BB600's you
have mentioned. Any leads?
Alex Smith
3 wheeled vehicle enthusiast.
Glider Pilot.
Sail boat enthusiast.
EV's fit right in there, don't they?




>From: "damon henry" <damonhenry@...>
>Reply-To: ev@...
>To: ev@...
>Subject: Re: New EM pictures
>Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:22:09 +0000
>
>Actually 44 cells and 150lbs.
>
>>From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
>>Reply-To: ev@...
>>To: <ev@...>
>>Subject: Re: New EM pictures
>>Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 22:59:04 -0700
>>
>>So 60 batteries about 200 pounds?  17 miles.  Great.  If you can do any
>>Freeway that is great.  The bike is so much cleaner now.  Seems you have
>>the chain figured out too.  LR........
>>
>>
>>>I snapped a few shots of my bike with the BB600's mounted and added them
>>>to my webpage.
>>>
>>>http://home.comcast.net/~damonhenry/ebike.htm
>>>
>>>I am much happier with the way it looks with these batteries.  The only
>>>downside is that people rarely notice that it is electric now :-(
>>>
>>>damon
>>>
>>
>

On Jul 13, 2005, at 8:54 PM, James Massey wrote:

> And then whilst you are stopped, the alternator is drawing 4 amps into
> the field, negating any gains?
>
> Or did you do something / select a particular alternator that prevents
> this from occurring?
>

That was the case with my old Dodge, but then it had a mechanical
regulator. I know a 1 wire alternator can't do that because they work
with only a single wire from alternator to the battery positive. I'm
sure there are other answers in between those extremes.

Paul "neon" G.

On Jul 13, 2005, at 11:03 PM, Ryan Stotts wrote:

> What if you did away with the 12V accessory battery and only ran the
> DC/DC to power your 12V accessories?
>

My EV buggy is that way. It works fine except that its a single point
failure issue. If that Todd fails or I run the pack into the gutter
*everything* shuts down. No lights, no main contactor, nothing.

Paul

Obviously I have some love for the Dymaxion car!

I wonder if it was really only 1000 lbs?

A caution I would have is how stable was it for high speed driving?
Many cars have a bit of a wedge shape, and/or spoilers, to fight rear
end lift.

Why choose an MG or Triumph front end? Those are orphan cars you
haven't been able to buy for many years.

An S10 Blazer could make a good starting point, the running gear
attaches to the frame. You could even leave the dash, steering,
controls, and front seats. The strong frame rails would make good
attachment points for the 3rd wheel. With the strength of the truck
frame you could likely have 50+% weight in batteries.

The kit car world has a few 3 wheelers, that might make a really good
starting point.

Here's a neat one:

<http://www.vigillante.com>

Last random thought: I've wondered if 3 wheel steering could tame the
oversteering tendencies of a 1F2R arrangement. Another related
thought would be to have the battery pack shift to the inside of the
turn to help balance the car.

--- Stu or Jan <stu@...> wrote:
> I am 'building' a 2F1R hybrid in my imagination.
>
> Batteries up front.  75/25 ratio.
>
> A front end from a Triumph or an MG donor.  Make/years/sources?
>
> A swing axle from a motorcycle rear. No rear mechanical brake.
> Regen
> braking. How to fit wheel and pulleys?  Suggestions for a donor
> rear?
>
> A 10Kw to 15KW engine with variable pulleys to one side of the rear
> wheel.
>
> A 10KW motor with variable pulleys to the other side of the rear
> wheel.
>
> Source of pulleys?
>
> Weight of engine/motor beyond rear for traction and for exhaust.
>
> A roll cage frame.  Tear drop aero.  Light weight covering using
> flat panels
> like a stealth bomber.  Suggestions as to design and tubing
> dimensions.
> Suggestions of how to enter/exit.
>
> DC motor driven A/C.
>
> Anyone else interested in this project?  I sure would enjoy some
> company.
> Car to be built in Fort Pierce, FL.
>
> BTW Buckmister Fuller's Dymaxion (2F1R) weighed 1,000 pounds and it
> carried
> 10 passengers.  Built in 1933!
>
> "For those that haven't heard of it, the Dymaxion Car was a
> teardrop-shaped
> (least air resistance), 3-wheeled, rear-wheel (single) steering, 20
> foot
> long, Aluminum bodied auto, designed by Buckminster Fuller in 1933
> to
> achieve maximum output and service with minimum material input.  It
> was
> about 6 feet tall (kinda like a big van), seated the driver and 10
> passengers, weighed less than 1000 lbs., went 120 miles/hr on a 90
> horsepower engine, and got between 30-50 miles to the gallon of
> gas.  Fuller
> referred to it as the "Dymaxion Car", "Dymaxion Vehicle", and
> "Omni-Medium
> Transport" since it was ultimately intended to go by land, water,
> or sky.
> Only three were ever built."
>
> Can we do better today?
>
> BoyntonStu




__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

This list is as good a place as I know of to find them.  They are usually
obtained as military surplus, and thanks to the efforts of one of our list
members earlier this year some of us got in on a buy stemming from a surplus
auction.

Unfortunately for you all of us who got in on this buy are just starting to
use our batteries and decididng whether they really fit the application we
were hoping to use them for.  Mine are working out great for me, but I
suspect others will find that they don't, and be offering them for sale in
the future.

Since you are still in the design stage I would suggest looking at the sizes
of some of the more commonly used batteries and make sure you build in a
space that will accomodate as many of these choices as is practical.  We can
certainly get you dimensions.  With the BB600 the only dimension you really
need to worry about is the height which is approx. 9 1/4 inches, but they do
require occasional watering so you will need easy access to the tops of
them.  Also they are flooded so they need to be used in a vertical position.

These people used to sell them, but it's been well over a year since I last
checked with them.  Still you can see a photo and the dimensions.

http://www.sg-photo.com/nicad_batteries.htm

damon

>From: "Alex Smith" <cdninoh@...>
>Reply-To: ev@...
>To: ev@...
>Subject: Re: New EM pictures and a newbee question.
>Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:33:21 +0000
>
>Hi Guys.
>Just joined at the advice of Jerry Dycus as I am in the process of building
>(well, gathereing the components and doing the design work) an electric
>motorcycle.
>It is to be a 'feet forward', low slung, semi-enclosed machine. While I am
>currently designing the machine to accomodate 5 12volt flooded batteries,
>the design would be much nicer with smaller batteries.
>I've done a good bit of surfing but have been unable to find the BB600's
>you have mentioned. Any leads?
>Alex Smith
>3 wheeled vehicle enthusiast.
>Glider Pilot.
>Sail boat enthusiast.
>EV's fit right in there, don't they?
>
>
>
>
>>From: "damon henry" <damonhenry@...>
>>Reply-To: ev@...
>>To: ev@...
>>Subject: Re: New EM pictures
>>Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:22:09 +0000
>>
>>Actually 44 cells and 150lbs.
>>
>>>From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
>>>Reply-To: ev@...
>>>To: <ev@...>
>>>Subject: Re: New EM pictures
>>>Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 22:59:04 -0700
>>>
>>>So 60 batteries about 200 pounds?  17 miles.  Great.  If you can do any
>>>Freeway that is great.  The bike is so much cleaner now.  Seems you have
>>>the chain figured out too.  LR........
>>>
>>>
>>>>I snapped a few shots of my bike with the BB600's mounted and added them
>>>>to my webpage.
>>>>
>>>>http://home.comcast.net/~damonhenry/ebike.htm
>>>>
>>>>I am much happier with the way it looks with these batteries.  The only
>>>>downside is that people rarely notice that it is electric now :-(
>>>>
>>>>damon
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

That's interesting.  What does it weigh? My Metro also had 14ea 6Ver's and
got 30mpc instead of Bob's 24mpc.  The finish weight of the Metro was 2400
lbs and start weight was 1600lbs.  Bob was a neat guy and got me started in
EV reporting and I enjoyed visiting Inverness in May and Point Reyes
National seashore, the windiest place on the coast, great for windmills.
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Grannes, Dean" <dean.grannes@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 1:27 PM
Subject: FW: Electric '59 MGA Roadster for Sale


> Folks,
>
> I'm going to start by forwarding the message that started it all.
> Please read my comments below for the current status:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Wing
> Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 8:57 PM
> To: ev@...
> Subject: Electric '59 MGA Roadster for Sale
>
> Hi,
>
> Only Known Electric '59 MGA Roadster in US or UK is for sale by owner.
>
> I have had my fun but it is time to sell it to someone younger. A buyer
> from the greater San Francisco Bay area or Sacramento, Calif. would have
> qualified service help available if needed.  Since 1972 it has been my
> test
> bed for various motor, controller, charger and battery configurations.
>
> Present equipment is a Prestolite 4001 motor, Zapi H2 400 Amp controller
> in
> E-pump mode, (no contactor required), 20-12 VDC Optima deep-cycle
> batteries
> in buddy pairs at 120 VDC, E-Meter, beta-test Zivan 'Smoother' battery
> equalizer (first one in USA on the road), onboard beta-test Russco 120
> Vac
> and Zivan NG3 240 Vac chargers. Front axle tow bar is included.
>
> Won Classic Car Award at 1996 Stanford Electric Auto Assoc Rally.
> Awarded
> Most Technologically Innovative MG at the MG owner's Club (all ICEs
> except
> for two EVs) Jack London Square, Oakland CA 1998.
>
> New fire engine red paint 4 years ago, all body panels removed nd
> painted
> separatelyl  It has not been driven in the rain.  It is a British car
> and
> the body panels rust out if the mud sticks in the cracks. Chrome, paint,
> top and upholstery in great shape. Low rolling resistance tires.
>
> Phone and come and drive it.  Will part it out after 4 months if it has
> not
> sold as is.
>
> Sale price $8,750.  Extra charge of $800.each for Zivan Smoother or
> either
> second charger.
>
> This is a sporty one-of-a-kind EV and great fun to drive.
>
>
>
> Bob Wing
> ***********
>
> As you probably know (or have guessed), I purchased "Fire Chief" from
> Bob back in 1999, shortly after this email went out.  (Bob passed away a
> few years later.)  I purchased both the Smoother (not working) and the
> second charger, so paid a total of $10,350, or thereabouts.  Since then,
> the batteries have been replaced with yellow-tops, Mark II Rudman Regs
> have been added, and the motor was completely rewound after it
> overheated.  The car has been to several shows around the Bay Area,
> including a few more MG shows (it always wins Technologically Innovative
> award), Hot August Niles in Fremont, and Newark Days in Newark.  It
> always attracts attention.  It is a lot of fun to drive, and this is
> perfect weather for it.
>
> However, I currently don't drive it much.  I drive it to car shows and
> occasionally around town.  Though the batteries don't have many cycles
> on them, the pack is several years old and somewhat out of balance, so
> it doesn't have the range to get me to work (19 miles of mixed freeway
> and stop-and-go), and since I spend most of my off-time with my wife and
> son, a two-seater is not so practical for us.  Therefore, I reluctantly
> decided to sell the car to someone who has more time and use for it.
>
> I would like to get close to my original $10k back for this car.  It
> comes with lots of extras.  Besides the tow bar, there are several spare
> tires/wheels (wire spoke wheels) old battery racks, extra seat cover
> material, miscellaneous electronics.  It comes with a 110V Russco
> charger and a 220V Zivan NG3.  I'll also throw in a Zivan K2 that I
> purchased separately.  The Smoother is currently with Lee Hart for
> analysis, but is not working.
>
> This car has a lot of history.  It was converted in 1973 by Bob Wing.  I
> have lots of documentation.  He kept meticulous records of the
> conversion process and modifications he made.
>
> I would like to sell this to someone (preferably in the Bay Area or
> northern California) who will treat the car well, and perhaps continue
> to show it.  This car is a legacy of an EV pioneer, and I want this
> legacy to continue.
>
> Photos and descriptions can be found at:
> http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/bobwing.html
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/114.html
> http://www.nbeaa.org/wing/bob_wing_-_ev_pioneer.htm
>

EV Digest 4503

Topics covered in this issue include:

   1) SLA pack on eBay
	 by cowtown@...
   2) Re: Air conditioner etc
	 by James Massey <jcmassey@...>
   3) Re: Air conditioner etc
	 by cowtown@...
   4) Re: SLA pack on eBay
	 by Nick Austin <nick@...>
   5) Re: SLA pack on eBay
	 by Neon John <jgd@...>
   6) Re: SLA pack on eBay
	 by cowtown@...
   7) Tach sensor stuff (was: Re: JeepEV Drivetrain (was: Re: Oozing Motor?)
	 by Nick Viera <jeepev@...>
   8) Re: Air conditioner etc
	 by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
   9) Re: ICCU Ultracap Breakthrough. Will this help with SCR controller
	  efficiency?
	 by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
  10) Re: Motor cycle for electric
	 by "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
  11) Re: Motor cycle for electric
	 by "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
  12) Re: Stupid questions
	 by Ryan Stotts <stotts.ryan@...>
  13) Re: New EM pictures
	 by "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
  14) Re: DC/DC
	 by Ryan Stotts <stotts.ryan@...>
  15) Re: Plasma Boy Racing website up and running
	 by Ryan Stotts <stotts.ryan@...>
  16) Re: MC EV drive Set ups / eff Re: Motor cycle for electric
	 by "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
  17) Re: how many amps?
	 by Rich Rudman <rmanzan@...>
  18) Re: ICCU Ultracap Breakthrough. Will this help with SCR controller
   efficiency?
	 by toltec <toltec@...>
  19) How about these for Arcane/high fuel economy.
	 by "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
  20) Thermocouple position, was: Re: 120v 6.7" ADC?
	 by James Massey <jcmassey@...>
  21) RE: Newbie - Need Charging Help
	 by "ohnojoe" <ohnojoe@...>
  22) Re: Tach sensor stuff (was: Re: JeepEV Drivetrain (was: Re: Oozing Motor?)
	 by Ralph Merwin <rmerwin@...>
  23) Dymaxion, etc.
	 by "Stu or Jan" <stu@...>
  24) Re: MC EV drive Set ups / eff Re: Motor cycle for electric
	 by jerry dycus <jerry5335@...>
  25) Re: MC EV drive Set ups / eff   and Donald/dbuckshot spam
	 by jerry dycus <jerry5335@...>
  26) Slow Launch
	 by "Don Cameron" <ev@...>
  27) RE: Dymaxion, etc.
	 by "Don Cameron" <ev@...>
  28) Re: Slow Launch
	 by Christopher Zach <czach@...>
  29) Re: New EM pictures
	 by "damon henry" <damonhenry@...>

144V/100Ah pack for $1K, anyone?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4561892969

Hi All

One point I noticed that seems to not have been commented on:

At 03:30 PM 13/07/05 -0700, Paul "neon" G wrote:
>I agree with most of what you wrote but not your result. Let me set the
>stage using my Buggy -
><snip>
>So the worst case I can come up with is about 12% range loss. However,
>that is not totally accurate because anytime I was stopping I could still
>get power from the alternator without any pack power used (some of the
>time is "free".)

And then whilst you are stopped, the alternator is drawing 4 amps into the
field, negating any gains?

Or did you do something / select a particular alternator that prevents this
from occurring?

Many alternators (or more precicely the regulator) power the field even
when stopped. It has been a few years since I was intimate with
alternators, so the situation may have changed. But it does need to be
considered. If the alternator is powering its field all the time, around 50
watts being lost that if your commute is a lot of stop-and-go may add up to
a significant amount of energy.

James

> Hell Jeff,
>
> This will give you some ideal of what energy it takes to run a A/C.
>
> The A/C unit is a smaller FACE MOUNTING UNIT, not the large old units that
weigh over 50 lbs.
>
> I am running not only the A/C, but the Power Steering, Vacuum pump and
Alternator off the main motor pilot shaft which shows 188 volts drop down from
192 volts at 4 amps to run the A/C while driving the others under no load.
>
> This is with the A/C full on, while Power Steering and Alternator is not
running.
>
> The wattage would be 188 x 4 = 752 watts or close to 1 hp.   If you try to run
  a 12 volt motor to run the A/C than the ampere would be about 752/12 = 62
amps!! which would be a too much.
>
> You either run small drive motors off the DC battery pack or used a very large
DC/DC or DC/AC inverter of the battery pack.
>
> I could not used a large DC/AC inverter in my already large car which is jam
pack and have no more room.  I would have to have a bigger car. The DC/AC
inverter to run all my accessories, is about 18 inches long by 12 inches high
and 12 inches deep which has a output of 125/250 VAC 60 Hz at 6000 watts. Which
would weigh over 100 lbs.
>
> Therefore it was much simpler for me to run the accessories of the pilot shaft
of the main motor, like a engine does.  It works great.  Used standard units
that you can get at any auto parts store.
>
> When I start up the EV from a standing stop and starting moving, these units
fire up, the alternator needs about 500 rpm to excite which is about 3 mph in
1st gear or reverse.
>
> I used a idle stop on the accelerator linkage that I can activated, so I can
run these units for maintenance and testing.
>
> When I coast to a stop or down hill, all these accessories are still running,
while the amp meters are reading O amps!!  This is like a mechanical REGEN.
>
> In the winter time when the streets and hills are icy, I can turn on close to
3000 watts of heating systems, lights and all other power I can turn on.  This
mechanical REGEN slows me down going down a steep hill like a ICE compression
of a engine in first gear.
>
> When I come to a stop at a intersection. I do not have to apply any brakes,
the Mech.REGEN slows me down to a stop while generating power to the
accessories at 0 amps on battery pack!
>
> Roland


You wouldn't want your AC to be dependent on braking if you have freeway driving
in hot areas. Not that it's very efficient, but if you have a dc-dc that can
supply 70A, a PMG 070 motor (German version of a small Lynch) can handle that
much continuously (much more for short peaks). Then, if there is a way to "save
up" pressurized AC fluid (this can be done with a vacuum canister for the brakes
and an accumulator for steering fluid pressure), you wouldn't be so dependent on
braking regen to power these units.

But wouldn't it be easier to get a 1-1/2 to 2hp treadmill motor from Burden or
AmSci&Surplus? These are usually spec'd for 100-120vdc, so you could run it
directly from the pack, connect it to all 3 units (power steering and brakes,
A/C), and forgo complicated controls except an off circuit to cut power when
none of the 3 are in use. Don't know the mechanical setup, but maybe a
serpentine belt or even a chain and gears?

Buyer pays shipping? ;)

On Wed, Jul 13, 2005 at 08:47:38PM -0700, cowtown@... wrote:
> 144V/100Ah pack for $1K, anyone?
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4561892969

Hey, that place is only about 10 miles away.  Cool place.  All sorts
of industrial liquidations.  Maybe I need to drop down and take a
look.


On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 21:20:47 -0700, Nick Austin <nick@...>
wrote:

>Buyer pays shipping? ;)
>
>On Wed, Jul 13, 2005 at 08:47:38PM -0700, cowtown@... wrote:
>> 144V/100Ah pack for $1K, anyone?
>>
>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4561892969
>

---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN

<<<Buyer pays shipping? ;)

On Wed, Jul 13, 2005 at 08:47:38PM -0700, cowtown@... wrote:
> 144V/100Ah pack for $1K, anyone?
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4561892969
>>>

The listing states: We will ship this by common carrier or local pickup is free.
  Email us to get a quote.

Needs a comma after the word "carrier"! Only thing free is local pickup.

Hi,

Roger Stockton wrote:
>> Nick Viera wrote:
>>
>> I have a hall-effect sensor here that should work, but have yet to
>> find a safe, yet affordable way to hold two magnets to my motor's
>> tail shaft?
>
> Affordable is entirely subjective, but I don't know of a slicker way
> than this (it is what I am using on my ADC 8"):
> <http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=444&product_id=1
>  568>

You're right I should have defined "affordable." I agree that that
magnet collar looks like a good easy solution, I guess I just can't
believe that this has to be a $35+ solution.

Yet I can't find anyone else who sells magnet collars/holders like
this... I guess they aren't a very common item?? Though, I'm still
thinking there's got to be a way I can make a holder similar to that out
of all the leftovers parts, things, and junk in my garage...

Another thing I was looking for was a ring magnet like the kind used
with the speed sensor Otmar sells. It seems like that would work just as
good (it is a 4-pole magnet, right?), but again I can't seem to find
them sold anywhere?

Thanks,

--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------

Rich Rudman wrote:
>> Rough guesses a belt driven alternator VS a DC to DC converter,
>> will drop your range by %20. Big losses for simple reasons...

Paul G. wrote:
> I agree with most of what you wrote but not your result. Let me
> set the stage using my Buggy
> - 1 hour run time
> - 10 Optimas
> - Alternator with belt drive is 36% efficient (60% alternator
>   and belt drive)

A v-belt is more like 90% efficient at design load. Thus a loss of 60
watts when delivering 600 watts of power. However, the loss stays fairly
constant despite load changes; so it is using up 60 watts even with no
load on the alternator.

An automotive alternator is around 60% efficient at full load. Its
efficiency is fairly constant over wide range, like most motors.

> - 14 volt output
> - 20 amp load

Ok; so you're using 14v x 20a = 280 watts out

A 60a alternator will still be 50% efficient at 20a output, so it needs
280/0.5 = 560 watts of mechanical power. Belt losses will add another 60
watts (roughly constant despite load). So with an alternator and belt
you need 560+60 = 620 watts mechanical power from the traction motor.

Now, the traction motor and controller total about 80% efficient; so you
need 620w/0.8 = 775 watts from the propulsion pack. Doing this for your
1-hour driving time uses 775wh/120v = 6.45 amphours.

> Todd DC>DC:
> - the same except I will assume that Todd is 90% efficient
> = result of 2.6 Ah used (about 8% of range)

Actually, I measured my Todd PC30 at 86% best-case efficiency, and 75%
with my 132v pack and a 25amp load (what my EV requires). 280w/0.75 =
373w in; in 1 hour it uses 373wh/120v = 3.11 amphours.

> So the worst case I can come up with is about 12% range loss.

The alternator setup uses twice the power (6.45ah vs 3.11ah). However,
this is tiny compared to the power you're using for the traction motor.
Suppose your EV is very efficient at 200 watthours/mile, and you only
drove 30 miles in that hour (30 mph); you've used 200*30 = 6000
watthours. 6000wh/120v = 50 amphours. The alternator setup reduces your
range about 13%, and the Todd DC/DC about 6% -- only a 5% difference.

And, this is an exceptionally low power consumption rate. Most EVs have
a lot larger pack, which makes the power used by the 12v system
correspondingly less.

Frankly, if I only had ten Optimas in my EV, I'd use a separate 12v
battery to power the 12v system, with *no* DC/DC or alternator. A
battery to supply that 12v 20a load for 1 hour is smaller, lighter,
cheaper, and simpler.
--
The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.
	 -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

toltec wrote:
> may I ask a bone-head question?:
> how is it, exactly, that the capacitors intercept/contain/filter
> out the ripple current?

Back to the good old electricity-as-water analogy. :-)

The controller is drawing current in pulses, like a water valve that is
cycling rapidly fullyopen/fullyclosed/fullyopen/fullyclosed etc. The
water in the pipe moves in jerks. This creates what plumbers call "water
hammer", which sounds like someone hammering on your pipes.

My home sprinker system does this. The sprinker heads oscillate,
producing that characteristic cha-cha-cha sound, repetitively
interrupting the spray with a little diverter to scatter the water more
evenly. But you can also hear and feel these pulsations on every pipe in
the house.

Now, water hammer is bad. Besides the noise, the pressure pulsations
stress the pipes, and can cause leaks. In bad cases, it can actually
break joints or the pipe itself! So, plumbers add a little container
with an air pocket in it. For example, a vertical length of pipe with a
cap on top, so it traps a column of air. The pressure pulses from the
water hammer now alternately compress the air in this container. So, the
flow in can be pulsating, but the flow out can be smooth. This container
is called an "accumulator", and is the water equivalent of an electrical
capacitor.

A capacitor smooths out the voltage spikes that would have resulted from
a pulsating current flow. Like an accumulator, it doesn't create or
destroy charge; it merely absorbs it during the peaks, and releases it
during the valleys.

Does that help?
--
The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.
	 -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

I don't know if Scott Cronk is ghosting this list but the Lectra with 4
Optimas was claimed at 20 miles.  Many people complained of less.  I suspect
if you kept it at a steady 25 with no stops it might be possible.  That's
168 pounds of lead aprox.
300 pounds is double that or about 1/3 the vehicle weight with a 300 pound
rider to be on the heavy side.  An EV with 1/3 battery weight aught to do at
least 40 miles.  A motorcycle shouldn't be much different unless you exceed
45mph.  LR.........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Tromley" <chris_t@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 1:07 PM
Subject: RE: Motor cycle for electric


> Damon Henry wrote:
>
>> >I hope you give this a try.  So far no one to my knowledge has made an
>> >EM
>> >with motorcycle-appropriate performance that's in daily use.  (Though
>> some
>> >have come close, and could get there easily).  Someone needs to. Chris
>> >
>> >
>>
>> If this is what you hope to see, then suggesting he use lead for
>> batteries
>> makes no sense.  The only thing available that has a shot of getting true
>> motorcycle like performance are some big Kokam LiPolys.  Sure he can slap
>> a
>> bunch of Hawkers on there and make it out accelerate a car, but the batts
>> will be pooped out after the second or third stop light.
>
> Hi Damon,
>
> I have never built an EM and you have, so I give you a lot of credit for
> experience.  But I don't think you have experience with the EM I'm
> thinking
> of.  I'm not saying you need to have killer performance to be legitimate,
> but I think it's reasonable to expect good performance if you're starting
> with a performance bike.  What I've described would be a 600 lb. bike with
> well over 100 horsepower.  Not a record-setter, but certainly respectable.
>
> I don't know why you think it will have poor range.  In a car, 50% of your
> weight in lead gets you around a 100 mile range.  Obviously the weight of
> the rider is a much greater proportion of a motorcycle's weight, and
> aerodynamics really stink at highway speed.  But still, it should have at
> least your 15-20 mile range, maybe double that.  Unfortunately we don't
> have
> a lot of data on EMs so that's a guess.
>
>> Besides if you
>> have ever seen these gasser sports bikes at the drag strip compared to
>> Nedra
>> motorcycles, the performance is not even close.  I believe it was Brian
>> Hall
>> that I saw break into the 100mph club at Woodburn.  I regularly see
>> sports
>> bikes running in the 8's and 9's and close to 140mph on the nights I go
>> see
>> Wayland race at PIR.  They run at these speeds all night long, then the
>> owners ride them home.
>
> I'm not talking about tweaked drag bikes and street racers.  I'm talking
> about a bone stock sport bike beating all but the top handful of NEDRA
> competitors, car or motorcycle.  Most people have no idea how fast current
> sport bikes are.  Their first experience is usually a *severe* sensory
> overload.  To a knowledgeable sport bike rider, an EM is likely to be a
> real
> letdown unless some effort is made to retain some genuine grunt.
>
>> I have put a couple of thousand miles on my EM and couldn't be happier
>> that
>> I built it.  It accelerates about the same as an average car, tops out ot
>> 60mph, and gives me a good 15 to 20 mile range.  It still looks like a
>> real
>> motorcycle, and I can give my kids or wife a ride.
>
> I think that's absolutely fabulous.  As an older standard motorcycle it
> has
> no pretensions of performance.  It's a great errand runner,
> knock-around-towner and conversation starter.  Thanks for building it.
> Beyond the enjoyment you get from it, we all benefit.
>
> Maybe I've been warped.  My motorcycle involvement was in southern
> California where the intensity of the sport bike crowd ran pretty high.  I
> still think that any vehicle, car or motorcycle, that starts out with a
> performance reputation had better keep its dignity after being converted
> to
> an EV.  Otherwise we aren't doing the cause any good.
>
>> I have never met a
>> motorcycle guy who didn't think it was cool, especially when they take it
>> for a ride.
>
> Cool as in interesting, enlightening, unusual, surprising?  Certainly.  Or
> cool as in I want one?  Probably not.  Face it, performance is a much
> bigger
> factor for motorcyclists than it is for car drivers.  All I'm suggesting
> is
> to consider your audience.
>
> Chris
>
> BTW, one EM that I think is almost up to motorcycle-appropriate
> performance
> is the good Reverend Gadget's EMW.  Twenty-four 12 V Hawkers, but running
> at
> only 72 V.  Great lunge at the bottom that fizzles out to zip on the
> highway.  Rev, when are you going to rewire that thing for 144 V and stick
> in a matching Curtis?  Inquiring speed junkies want to know!  ;^)
>
>

I'm thinking of putting in my Zilla just to see what
she will do before I take it apart to build a new
frame. I'm building a new frame from the ground up,
more of a custom, very low chopper.

What's going to happen to the frame and associated parts(battery boxes/cover
etc..)?   I really liked what you did with the EMW.  Seemed to work well for
what it was.   Lawrence Rhodes....

Lee Hart wrote:

> But Detroit has proven to be amazingly adept at building cheap motors
> that quickly wear out, and are expensive and difficult to fix.
>There are already a dozen or more electric motors in a modern car;


Each one of them is an odd case.


>starter,

On the Ford ones at least, I think there is a component to it that I
can't recall the name of that wears out and is not so much the actual
"electric motor" part of it that wears out.

> alternator,

Same case with this.  Seems a diode or a rectifier fails in it.  Also
when V belts were more common, the absurd amount of side loading belt
tension that was placed on it.  Not so much of a problem anymore with
the serpentine belt.

>radiator fan
>heater blower
>power windows, mirrors, seats and other gadgets
>windshield wiper

I'm not sure what causes these to stop working, but they eventually do.


>fuel pump,

This one is very prone to going out and I'm not sure why...


>It is common for one or more of them to fail before the ICE needs rebuilding.

It's unreal the ICE can last as long as they do all things
considered..  The "bearings" are more like bushings and the amount of
contact and friction the rings have and the pistons essentially coming
to a complete stop at the top and bottom of the stroke..

> So, my gloomy side says they will find a way to make electric motors
> just as unreliable and expensive to fix.

When I look at the Electric Ranger motor I think, could they have made
it any more bizarre and proprietary?  It's so unconventional looking..

http://www.mavin.com/PPD.asp?offset=20&ProductID=132

At least on the outside anyways.  Very non standard and specialized.
Maybe it's all smoke and mirrors?

How much potential might that motor have if the equivalent of a 2,000
amp Zilla was available for AC?

So 60 batteries about 200 pounds?  17 miles.  Great.  If you can do any
Freeway that is great.  The bike is so much cleaner now.  Seems you have the
chain figured out too.  LR........


>I snapped a few shots of my bike with the BB600's mounted and added them to
>my webpage.
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~damonhenry/ebike.htm
>
> I am much happier with the way it looks with these batteries.  The only
> downside is that people rarely notice that it is electric now :-(
>
> damon
>

Nick Viera wrote:

> My point is keep you're DC/DC converter running all the time if
> you can... so you can avoid having a weak 12-volt system that you always
> have to worry about.

What if you did away with the 12V accessory battery and only ran the
DC/DC to power your 12V accessories?

http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/videos/'84%20SEVA%20Blue%20Meanie.MOV (32 megs)

On this one, when Bill Clarke gets in the car, someone says "burn it
out John".  Is it Bill Clarke who then says "Don't burn it out..."?
LOL!

I like that part at the end when your reeling out that extension cord
out of where the fuel filler was and it switches back to that news
anchor woman.  The expression on her face is priceless.  Her eyes are
huge!  I think that scene blew her mind.  :)

http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/videos/'95%20Blue%20Meanie.MOV (65 megs)

That's one of the best EV related movies I've ever seen.  Thanks for
uploading that one.

double range at speed, WOW!
http://www.craigvetter.com/pages/470MPG/470MPG%20Main.html They were doing
what Jerry recommends and more in the 80's.  Getting close to 500 mpg. or
about 5 times the gas mileage possible then.  Wonder how that will compare
for us.  Also.  We don't need as much air flow as a gas powered bike.  Our
designs can be more air tight.  LR........

Well over 2000 amps for a few seconds.

Madman

Iron Mountain Films wrote:

> How many amps at 120 volts can a stock adc 8" motor take?
> I know the ratings for 5 minutes, 1hour and constant, but what about 5 or 10
seconds at a time.  Does voltage sag from batteries jack up the amperage that a
motor sees?  I currently have a 96v civic 16) x 6v  It has a curtis 1231c 7701
that has overheated (heat sink fan failed) and it popped its endcap. It still
works fairly well but I seem to lose power after it heats up. I am trying to
choose a new controller and am leaning toward a 1K zilla LV.  Is this controller
overkill?  I am looking for range and decent performance less than or equal to
stock gas civic.
>
> On my next battery purchase I want to go to 136 volts 17) x 8v. and I am
wondering where I would set the amps limit. I read about racers dumping large
amounts of amps into these motors, but I am assuming they are modified.
> Currently I have trouble just getting to freeway speeds I pull 300 350 battery
amps sometimes less trying to accelerate.  Will a Zilla change that or are the
batteries the limiting factor?
> Thanks
> -Mike  92 honda Civic
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com

>>how is it, exactly, that the capacitors intercept/contain/filter
>>out the ripple current?

> A capacitor smooths out the voltage spikes that would have resulted from
> a pulsating current flow. Like an accumulator, it doesn't create or
> destroy charge; it merely absorbs it during the peaks, and releases it
> during the valleys.
> Does that help?

well, the analogies are all fine and good, and they provide a
generalized overview of the FUNCTION the components are providing, but I
guess the problem for me is that they don't seem explicit enough about
the actual electron movements to have "locked it in" for me, so to
speak, etc...

I guess, in practical terms, there really doesn't need to be anything
more than the idea of what the FUNCTION is and then the formulas to work
of the component vales, etc, for proper circuit design...  I mean, is it
REALLY just a simple matter of there being a certain amount of internal
"pressure" inside the cap, and that the electrons will preferentially go
and store themselves inside the cap when the "pressure" in the rest of
the cicruit becomes greater than the "pressure" in the cap?  ...and then
the electrons migrate back out of the cap when the "pressure" in the
rest of the circuit becomes lower than the "pressure" in the cap
again?...  are the caps in series or in parallel to the rest of the circuit?

thnx

http://www.craigvetter.com/pages/470MPG/1981%20Fuel%20Economy.html
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
bassoon@...
415-821-3519

Hi Otmar and all

At 10:37 AM 12/07/05 -0700, Otmar wrote:
>I was taught by the engineers at ADC to drill a half inch deep hole in the
>positive brush and put the thermocouple in there.

Any ideas as to why the positive brush?

Is it just an ADC in-house convention, or is there a technical reason for it?

I can theorise no reason for the positive brush to get hotter than the
negative, unless the electron flow into the brush heats it more than the
electron flow out of the negative one.

Any theories?

James

Joel, I have a manual for your charger. Also K&W folks are very very cool
and helpful. You can call them.


-----Original Message-----
From: Joel Silverman [mailto:jm_silverman@...]
Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 10:22 AM
To: EV List
Subject: Newbie - Need Charging Help

Excuse the basic questions but I could use some help
in figuring out the charging on my Volts Rabbit.  It
has a 96V (6Vx16) US 125 Battery pack and a K&W 20
charger.  The car has an analog SOC gauge and that is
it.  Since this is a "dumb" charger, I really need
help in determining how to best charge my pack.

What steps should I take to make sure I am getting the
most from my batteries.
1)How do I determine how much was pulled from the pack
after driving (check the voltage)??

2) What are the steps in charging?  I know of bulk and
finish but not sure what it all means.

3) How do I figure out how to set up the charger.  I
see there is a Current setting and a Voltage setting.
How do they relate to each other?

I have a timer set up at home to turn the charger off.

I sure could use some help.  I know that these are the
most basic of EV questions but I really want to
understand the process involved in properly charging
flooded batteries.

Thanks,

Joel

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

Nick Viera writes:
>
> > Affordable is entirely subjective, but I don't know of a slicker way
> > than this (it is what I am using on my ADC 8"):
> > <http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=444&product_id=1
> >  568>
>
> You're right I should have defined "affordable." I agree that that
> magnet collar looks like a good easy solution, I guess I just can't
> believe that this has to be a $35+ solution.

Nick,

How much is your time worth?  Will it take you more than an hour to design
and build a suitable alternative?

Ralph

I am 'building' a 2F1R hybrid in my imagination.



Batteries up front.  75/25 ratio.



A front end from a Triumph or an MG donor.  Make/years/sources?



A swing axle from a motorcycle rear. No rear mechanical brake. Regen
braking. How to fit wheel and pulleys?  Suggestions for a donor rear?



A 10Kw to 15KW engine with variable pulleys to one side of the rear wheel.







A 10KW motor with variable pulleys to the other side of the rear wheel.

Source of pulleys?



Weight of engine/motor beyond rear for traction and for exhaust.







A roll cage frame.  Tear drop aero.  Light weight covering using flat panels
like a stealth bomber.  Suggestions as to design and tubing dimensions.
Suggestions of how to enter/exit.



DC motor driven A/C.





Anyone else interested in this project?  I sure would enjoy some company.
Car to be built in Fort Pierce, FL.



BTW Buckmister Fuller's Dymaxion (2F1R) weighed 1,000 pounds and it carried
10 passengers.  Built in 1933!



"For those that haven't heard of it, the Dymaxion Car was a teardrop-shaped
(least air resistance), 3-wheeled, rear-wheel (single) steering, 20 foot
long, Aluminum bodied auto, designed by Buckminster Fuller in 1933 to
achieve maximum output and service with minimum material input.  It was
about 6 feet tall (kinda like a big van), seated the driver and 10
passengers, weighed less than 1000 lbs., went 120 miles/hr on a 90
horsepower engine, and got between 30-50 miles to the gallon of gas.  Fuller
referred to it as the "Dymaxion Car", "Dymaxion Vehicle", and "Omni-Medium
Transport" since it was ultimately intended to go by land, water, or sky.
Only three were ever built."



Can we do better today?



BoyntonStu

Hi Jeff and All,

--- Jeff Shanab <jshanab@...> wrote:

> Thanks to all, this is starting to take shape
> First of all it looked like Garret Maki's 84 Yamaha
> FJ1100 "piggy"  It
> sounds like the ADC 6.7 volt is a good fit or the
> pair of eteks.
> I am not light, so undersizing the motors would be
> an error.
> Jerry said fairing  double range at speed, WOW!

     That depends!!! ;-))
     Mostly on just how it's done and used and can very
a lot. Most of the saving is for at speed. Rolling
resistance/aero on an unfaired MC crosses over at
about 30mph or less vs a reg car at about 40-45mph.
     So under 30 mph the fairing will do little good.
But over 45mph al the difference in the world as air
drag goes up the cube of speed!!
     YMMV
     But as Lawrence's posts show on Vetter's aero bike
work, things can be quite good eff, thus range, speed
wise.


>
> I do like the idea of series/parallel, do 2 eteks in
> series (electrical)
> have more torque than a 6.7?

      NO!!!!!! Nor will the handle long term loads as
well compared to 1- 6.7. Also the 6.7 can go to
5500rpm easily all day long vs 4000 for the Etek so
you can use better gearing for even more torque in the
series motors. Other PM's can go higher rpm but the E
tek doesn't


>
> The batteries in the saddle bags is an awsome idea,
> it looks right and
> gives me 2 more batteries.

    Can work but when done right and some metal work,
enough batts can be put where the ICE motor, gas tank
was.

>
> Thanks Jerry, I wasn't thinking about the different
> windings for the
> 6.7, good point.

     I'm still deciding just what rpm, winding set up I
want on the 2 motor Freedom EV set up to get the best
combo of top speed, low end torque and eff.
     I'm tending towards slower motor rpm with more
torque/amp so the final drive can be cheaper, less
unsprung weight and lower amps eff range.
     I'd like to avoid a jack shaft if possible. This
can be done by making the fields stronger.


>
> It seeems like getting enough batteries on board for
> decent range is the
> real challenge.

     Much easier, cheaper, lighter is lowering drag as
in most any EV.


>
> Hey rich, do you have BLDC motors and controllers
> that would do nicely
> on a MC?

      I'd love a good, cost effective, regen, eff  BLDC
motor/controller for the Freedom EV!!! It would
increase my range by 10-25% depending on use,
terrain!!
      This is the best thing going for the E teks too
but they are just not big enough even with 2 of them.
And they cost the same OEM as the 6.7's do.



>
> I will have to do some calculations on just how much
> torque I need.
>
     There are many calulators out there but I just
take the motor's torque from their curves x the drive
ratio x the radius of the wheel in ft and compare to
know vehicles.

               HTH's,
                 Jerry Dycus


>




____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

Hi Philippe and All,

--- Philippe Borges <philippe.borges@...>
wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "jerry dycus" <jerry5335@...>
> To: <ev@...>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 1:33 PM
> Subject: MC EV drive Set ups / eff Re: Motor cycle
> for electric
>
>
> > > fun commuter
> > > etek
> > > 72V450A Alltrax
> > > 72V 40Ah kokam
> >
> >     You really need 2 Etek's if you want to do any
> > kind of power or speed over 50mph or good hill
> > climbing ability. Series/parallel them and you
> need
> > 1/2 less controller for the same power. And you
> could
> > add a bypass contactor for better top end power.
> >     Also while we would love Kokam's, this size
> pack
> > would be $8-10K?
>
> $3200 :^)

     That's $1100kwhr!!
     No thanks as my whole EV Mc would cost under
$1k!!!
      Good lead costs under $100kwhr. Even new Ni-cads
cost under $550kwhr and surplus under 100$kwhr when
you can find them.
      Much better is to get spee,range thru drag
reduction and use cheaper batts.

>
> note i don't choose etek for lots of power but to
> have more range >>>fun
> (light and 72V) COMMUTER

      It would have to be under 600lbs toatl with
driver, ect and under 50 mph on flat terrain to use
just 1 e-tek reliably. Any kind of hills, higher speed
you would need 2.
      Donald, stop spamming me with spamarrest spam. If
you don't want my posts, fine, but stop the auto
return posts which are just another form of spam.. I
don't click on anything like that as you never know
where it's from. If these don't stop we should ban you
from the list.
                   Jerry Dycus

>
> Philippe
>
> Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du
> volant ?
> quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
>  http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
>
>




____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

On the new Beetle, I use a Siemens system at 312V with a 5133WS18 motor and
Simovert controller - max torque of 175Nm/129ft-lbs

I modified SIADIS so that it can take up to 250amps current.  I use to have
it limited to 100amps.

I start off in second gear (an overall ratio of about 8:1) and notice when I
stomp on the throttle, the car does not have a quick launch but gently
tapers up the acceleration.  Once it reaches 2500 RPM, the acceleration is
quick, but off the line it is unexpectedly slow.

I notice on the ammeter that at launch it is only taking in 50-80 amps, then
as the RPMS rise to 2500 rpm, the amps rise to the maximum current of 250
amps.

Is this slow launch a factor of the control software? Maybe it is the
maximum torque of the motor? Is the launch a factor of torque or power?


thanks
Don

Victoria, BC, Canada

See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/

The teardrop shape is not necessarily the best aerodynamic shape for an
automobile. You must take into consideration ground effects.  You may want
to pick up a couple of newer books on vehicle aerodynamics if you really
want to make it aerodynamic.

Don


Victoria, BC, Canada

See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...] On
Behalf Of Stu or Jan
Sent: July 14, 2005 6:21 AM
To: ev@...
Subject: Dymaxion, etc.

I am 'building' a 2F1R hybrid in my imagination.



Batteries up front.  75/25 ratio.



A front end from a Triumph or an MG donor.  Make/years/sources?



A swing axle from a motorcycle rear. No rear mechanical brake. Regen
braking. How to fit wheel and pulleys?  Suggestions for a donor rear?



A 10Kw to 15KW engine with variable pulleys to one side of the rear wheel.







A 10KW motor with variable pulleys to the other side of the rear wheel.

Source of pulleys?



Weight of engine/motor beyond rear for traction and for exhaust.







A roll cage frame.  Tear drop aero.  Light weight covering using flat panels
like a stealth bomber.  Suggestions as to design and tubing dimensions.
Suggestions of how to enter/exit.



DC motor driven A/C.





Anyone else interested in this project?  I sure would enjoy some company.
Car to be built in Fort Pierce, FL.



BTW Buckmister Fuller's Dymaxion (2F1R) weighed 1,000 pounds and it carried
10 passengers.  Built in 1933!



"For those that haven't heard of it, the Dymaxion Car was a teardrop-shaped
(least air resistance), 3-wheeled, rear-wheel (single) steering, 20 foot
long, Aluminum bodied auto, designed by Buckminster Fuller in 1933 to
achieve maximum output and service with minimum material input.  It was
about 6 feet tall (kinda like a big van), seated the driver and 10
passengers, weighed less than 1000 lbs., went 120 miles/hr on a 90
horsepower engine, and got between 30-50 miles to the gallon of gas.  Fuller
referred to it as the "Dymaxion Car", "Dymaxion Vehicle", and "Omni-Medium
Transport" since it was ultimately intended to go by land, water, or sky.
Only three were ever built."



Can we do better today?



BoyntonStu

Might be life with vector control AC motors. I noticed that the Prizm
tends to be a bit slow up to 10mph; it's certainly not pulling it's max
of 50kw (200a@300v). Once you get beyond that though it accelerates
quickly and keeps on rocking up to about 100mph.

This is a single speed car that weighs a bit more than your car. That
said, is your motor and controller rated to 50+kw? (250amps at what
voltage?)

Chris


Don Cameron wrote:
> I start off in second gear (an overall ratio of about 8:1) and notice when I
> stomp on the throttle, the car does not have a quick launch but gently
> tapers up the acceleration.  Once it reaches 2500 RPM, the acceleration is
> quick, but off the line it is unexpectedly slow.
>
> I notice on the ammeter that at launch it is only taking in 50-80 amps, then
> as the RPMS rise to 2500 rpm, the amps rise to the maximum current of 250
> amps.

75lbs (22 cells) in the box, and it feels much better than when I had the
Saft modules on.  I can't even really tell these are back there.  Plus it
makes a nice back rest for a passenger.  I have had more weight back there
while experimenting with different battery arraingements, and it gets to the
point where the bike develops a strange feeling wobble.  I've also had the
batteries between my knees protrude out of the frame more and didn't like
it.  Of course I'm not racing around corners with my knee dragging, but for
the kind of riding I do it feels great.

As far as look and feel of the bike I am really happy with this current
arraingement.  A few years ago when I started this project I was hoping to
have something I could ride to work.  I knew back then that it was a long
shot, and I still haven't met that goal (I did do it once with the saft
modules, but it was more of an adventure than I am willing to persue every
day.)  My problem is that work is 26 miles one way, mostly freeway, with
some monster hills.

I still have a chance.  With some good aero work I may be able to make it,
or I may be able to find some business or individual at the halfway point
that could host a battery swap station for me.  With a few minor
adjustments, my current battery arraingement could be less than a 5 minute
swap.

Any Portlander's know anyone around the St John's bridge area that might be
interested in helping me out?

damon

>From: Rod Hower <rodhower@...>
>Reply-To: ev@...
>To: ev@...
>Subject: Re: New EM pictures
>Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 17:19:24 -0700 (PDT)
>
>How much weight do you have in that black box?
>How did that change the handling compared to
>the arraingement you had before?
>Rod
>P.S. Cool looking bike! My BB600's are still in the
>boxes in my garage, all 248 of them (I did a
>commishioning charge on 2 of them, 56 Ahr for each).
>
>--- damon henry <damonhenry@...> wrote:
>
> > I snapped a few shots of my bike with the BB600's
> > mounted and added them to
> > my webpage.
> >
> > http://home.comcast.net/~damonhenry/ebike.htm
> >
> > I am much happier with the way it looks with these
> > batteries.  The only
> > downside is that people rarely notice that it is
> > electric now :-(
> >
> > damon
> >
> >
>

EV Digest 4502

Topics covered in this issue include:

   1) Re: Plasma Boy Racing website up and running
	 by Victor Tikhonov <vtikhono@...>
   2) Re: Air conditioner etc
	 by Victor Tikhonov <vtikhono@...>
   3) RE: Motor cycle for electric
	 by "Chris Tromley" <chris_t@...>
   4) RE: Motor cycle for electric
	 by "damon henry" <damonhenry@...>
   5) Re: Stupid questions
	 by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
   6) Re: ICCU Ultracap Breakthrough. Will this help with SCR controller
efficiency?
	 by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
   7) RE: Motor cycle for electric
	 by Reverend Gadget <kleeninc@...>
   8) K & W BC 20 broke DC fuse holder
	 by "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
   9) New EM pictures
	 by "damon henry" <damonhenry@...>
  10) AVS Service information
	 by "David" <davidrobison@...>
  11) Re: Air conditioner etc
	 by "Paul G." <paul-g@...>
  12) Re: ICCU Ultracap Breakthrough. Will this help with SCR controller
  efficiency?
	 by toltec <toltec@...>
  13) Re: Plastic welder
	 by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
  14) Re: battery temperature measurement
	 by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
  15) RE: K & W BC 20 broke DC fuse holder
	 by "Bill Dennis" <wjdennis@...>
  16) Re: K & W BC 20 broke DC fuse holder
	 by Andrew Letton <letton@...>
  17) Re: K & W BC 20 broke DC fuse holder
	 by "Roland Wiench" <ev_7@...>
  18) Re: K & W BC 20 broke DC fuse holder
	 by "Roland Wiench" <ev_7@...>
  19) Re: Plasma Boy Racing website up and running
	 by Mark Farver <mfarver@...>
  20) how many amps?
	 by Iron Mountain Films <ironmountainfilms@...>
  21) Re: New EM pictures
	 by Rod Hower <rodhower@...>
  22) Re: Small AC motor question
	 by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
  23) Easy aero MC improvements,      Re: New EM pictures
	 by jerry dycus <jerry5335@...>
  24) Re: Plasma Boy Racing website up and running
	 by Victor Tikhonov <vtikhono@...>
  25) Motorcycle rear and swing axle.
	 by "Stu or Jan" <stu@...>
  26) Re: Bearings for clutch motors, Re: JeepEV Drivetrain (was: Re: Oozing
  Motor?)
	 by Nick Viera <jeepev@...>
  27) MC EV drive Set ups / eff Re: Motor cycle for electric
	 by Jeff Shanab <jshanab@...>
  28) Re: DC/DC
	 by Nick Viera <jeepev@...>
  29) Re: Bearings for clutch motors, Re: JeepEV Drivetrain (was: Re: Oozing
Motor?)
	 by Dave Cover <davecover@...>
  30) Re: Plasma Boy Racing website up and running
	 by John Wayland <dat1200@...>

That said, I still have an image of John soaking in energy
from LiIon cells (made in my garage). John may decide to
include it to his site :-)

http://www.metricmind.com/misc/li-ion_plasma-1a.jpg

Victor

Ralph Merwin wrote:
> John,
>
> I like your web pages.  Nice and clean, without the use of busy flashing,
> dancing, distracting web widgets.  That said, your Plasma Boy picture needs
> an animated GIF that has the lightning in the plasma ball moving around...
>
> Also, you need some pictures and stories of stuff you've blown up!  You don't
> to use the phrase "...we blow things up, so you don't have to" without some
> proof! ;-)  That blob of fused batteries laying next to the driveway comes
> to mind.
>
> Ralph

--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different

Chris, does this motor has its model# stamped on it?

Christopher Zach wrote:
> The AC in the Prizm pulls about 4amps at 300 volts running. Or about
> 1,200 watts. The payoff is a car that's cool in about a minute or so;
> it's very hyperactive.
>
> The motor is a 1hp, 300 volt brushless DC motor direct coupled to a
> sanden compressor on one end and direct to pack on the other.
>
> Chris

--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different

Damon Henry wrote:

> >I hope you give this a try.  So far no one to my knowledge has made an EM
> >with motorcycle-appropriate performance that's in daily use.  (Though
> some
> >have come close, and could get there easily).  Someone needs to. Chris
> >
> >
>
> If this is what you hope to see, then suggesting he use lead for batteries
> makes no sense.  The only thing available that has a shot of getting true
> motorcycle like performance are some big Kokam LiPolys.  Sure he can slap
> a
> bunch of Hawkers on there and make it out accelerate a car, but the batts
> will be pooped out after the second or third stop light.

Hi Damon,

I have never built an EM and you have, so I give you a lot of credit for
experience.  But I don't think you have experience with the EM I'm thinking
of.  I'm not saying you need to have killer performance to be legitimate,
but I think it's reasonable to expect good performance if you're starting
with a performance bike.  What I've described would be a 600 lb. bike with
well over 100 horsepower.  Not a record-setter, but certainly respectable.

I don't know why you think it will have poor range.  In a car, 50% of your
weight in lead gets you around a 100 mile range.  Obviously the weight of
the rider is a much greater proportion of a motorcycle's weight, and
aerodynamics really stink at highway speed.  But still, it should have at
least your 15-20 mile range, maybe double that.  Unfortunately we don't have
a lot of data on EMs so that's a guess.

> Besides if you
> have ever seen these gasser sports bikes at the drag strip compared to
> Nedra
> motorcycles, the performance is not even close.  I believe it was Brian
> Hall
> that I saw break into the 100mph club at Woodburn.  I regularly see sports
> bikes running in the 8's and 9's and close to 140mph on the nights I go
> see
> Wayland race at PIR.  They run at these speeds all night long, then the
> owners ride them home.

I'm not talking about tweaked drag bikes and street racers.  I'm talking
about a bone stock sport bike beating all but the top handful of NEDRA
competitors, car or motorcycle.  Most people have no idea how fast current
sport bikes are.  Their first experience is usually a *severe* sensory
overload.  To a knowledgeable sport bike rider, an EM is likely to be a real
letdown unless some effort is made to retain some genuine grunt.

> I have put a couple of thousand miles on my EM and couldn't be happier
> that
> I built it.  It accelerates about the same as an average car, tops out ot
> 60mph, and gives me a good 15 to 20 mile range.  It still looks like a
> real
> motorcycle, and I can give my kids or wife a ride.

I think that's absolutely fabulous.  As an older standard motorcycle it has
no pretensions of performance.  It's a great errand runner,
knock-around-towner and conversation starter.  Thanks for building it.
Beyond the enjoyment you get from it, we all benefit.

Maybe I've been warped.  My motorcycle involvement was in southern
California where the intensity of the sport bike crowd ran pretty high.  I
still think that any vehicle, car or motorcycle, that starts out with a
performance reputation had better keep its dignity after being converted to
an EV.  Otherwise we aren't doing the cause any good.

> I have never met a
> motorcycle guy who didn't think it was cool, especially when they take it
> for a ride.

Cool as in interesting, enlightening, unusual, surprising?  Certainly.  Or
cool as in I want one?  Probably not.  Face it, performance is a much bigger
factor for motorcyclists than it is for car drivers.  All I'm suggesting is
to consider your audience.

Chris

BTW, one EM that I think is almost up to motorcycle-appropriate performance
is the good Reverend Gadget's EMW.  Twenty-four 12 V Hawkers, but running at
only 72 V.  Great lunge at the bottom that fizzles out to zip on the
highway.  Rev, when are you going to rewire that thing for 144 V and stick
in a matching Curtis?  Inquiring speed junkies want to know!  ;^)

>Hi Damon,
>
>I have never built an EM and you have, so I give you a lot of credit for
>experience.  But I don't think you have experience with the EM I'm thinking
>of.  I'm not saying you need to have killer performance to be legitimate,
>but I think it's reasonable to expect good performance if you're starting
>with a performance bike.  What I've described would be a 600 lb. bike with
>well over 100 horsepower.  Not a record-setter, but certainly respectable.
>
>I don't know why you think it will have poor range.  In a car, 50% of your
>weight in lead gets you around a 100 mile range.  Obviously the weight of
>the rider is a much greater proportion of a motorcycle's weight, and
>aerodynamics really stink at highway speed.  But still, it should have at
>least your 15-20 mile range, maybe double that.  Unfortunately we don't
>have
>a lot of data on EMs so that's a guess.

That range sounds about right on a warm day when you are taking it easy.  I
guess the point that I was trying to make, is that with an EM the classic do
you want range, or speed, or handling paradox is even more exagerated.  Due
to Puekerts effect, cold weather penalties, and weight and placement issues,
lead is the worst choice for batteries on an EM that is trying to be
something close to what the original motorcycle was.

I totally agree with you on keeping a sports bike sporty, however.  You just
said that you wouldn't do it unless it could be done right and that no one
has quite gotten it right yet.  I don't think you can get it right without
some very nice batteries, and the only available choice right now that seems
to fit the bill are the Kokams.

I finally gave up on having it all on my motorcycle and decided to make it
as useable and nice as I could until I can splurge on the right batteries.
It's unlikely that I will be spending $7000 dollars on batteries anytime
soon however.  For now I am taking care of everything else and enjoying it
for what it is.

In general I think EM's feel faster then they really are.  This is because
there is only one powerband, and you are always in it.  You can always feel
the motor pulling, and just a slight twist of the wrist makes it pull even
harder.  I think this plus the unusual quite is what makes motorcycle people
really enjoy riding mine even if it is not as quick as a normal motorcycle.
Of course mine only started out as a 250, so performance wise there is
probably not that huge of a difference from stock.  It barely ran when I
first bought it, so I don't have anything to compare it to.

>> Question 2: How do you foresee things working in the future, when
>> most everyone has an electric or a hybrid?  Do you foresee lots
>> of electric traction motors needing lots of servicing, rebuilding,
>> etc?

Ryan Stotts wrote:
> Consider what's inside the motor.  DC: Replace the brushes when they
> wear out.  The 2 bearings on the shaft should last a very, very long
> time.  Not a big deal to replace anyways.  AC: no brushes, just 2
> bearings..

You're right; lots of consumer products have electric motors that can
run for years without maintenance. If/when they do need service, it is
relatively easy to fix them. Though most people don't bother, because
it's also cheap to replace them.

But Detroit has proven to be amazingly adept at building cheap motors
that quickly wear out, and are expensive and difficult to fix. There are
already a dozen or more electric motors in a modern car; starter,
alternator, radiator fan, heater blower, windshield wiper, fuel pump,
power windows, mirrors, seats and other gadgets, etc. It is common for
one or more of them to fail before the ICE needs rebuilding.

So, my gloomy side says they will find a way to make electric motors
just as unreliable and expensive to fix.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
	 -- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> I have a 120v 20 battery pack. Weighs 1400 pounds. Lee recommended
> 1000uf and check again.  What is the problem of putting in a few
> thousand?

No direct harm; the more, the merrier.

However, the goal here is to reduce the battery ripple current. With
perfect zero-resistance capacitors, 1000uF is plenty because almost all
the controller's ripple current will then flow in the capacitors, not
the batteries.

However, real capacitors also have resistance, called ESR on the data
sheets (Equivalent Series Resistance). Capacitor ESR diverts ripple
current back to the batteries. ESR also produces heat, making the
capacitors get hot. It ultimately determines the maximum ripple current
that the capacitor can stand without overheating.

So, your goal is a capacitor with:

a. At least 1000uF of capacitance.

b. An ESR at least as low as your batteries ESR.
    For example, an Optima has an ESR of about 0.003 ohms.
    A pack of 10 has a total ESR of 10x0.003 = 0.03 ohms.
    Add 20 connections at 0.001 ohm each = 0.05 ohms total.
    So you want a capacitor with an ESR of 0.05 ohms or less.

c. A ripple current rating of at least 1/4th your motor current.
    400 amp motor current means the controller is switching between
    0 and 400, which is +/-200 amps peak AC ripple, which is about
    100 amps RMS.

What you'll find is that its easy to find a 1000uF electrolytic
capacitor; but its ESR will be 1 ohm and its ripple current rating is
only 5 amps. Just one provides the capacitance, but you'd need 20 of
them in parallel to satisfy the ESR and ripple current requirements.
This is what you see in many controllers; a large number of cheaper
electrolytics, with far more capacitance than needed just to get the
ripple and ESR ratings.

Or, oil-filled paper or polypropylene film capacitors can easily meet
the ESR and ripple current requirements; but their capacitance is low. A
big metal can oil-filled capacitor can have 20uF of capacitance, 0.1 ohm
ESR, and a 25-amp ripple current rating. You'd need only 4 of them for
ESR and ripple, but 50 to get the capacitance. These capacitors would be
a lot larger and more expensive than electrolytics. So what you see in
some controllers are a smaller number of electrolytics (just to get the
capacitance), in parallel with a smaller number of oil or film
capacitors (to get the ESR and ripple ratings).

That's why I suggested that you experiment.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
	 -- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

> BTW, one EM that I think is almost up to
> motorcycle-appropriate performance
> is the good Reverend Gadget's EMW.  Twenty-four 12 V
> Hawkers, but running at
> only 72 V.  Great lunge at the bottom that fizzles
> out to zip on the
> highway.  Rev, when are you going to rewire that
> thing for 144 V and stick
> in a matching Curtis?  Inquiring speed junkies want
> to know!  ;^)


I'm thinking of putting in my Zilla just to see what
she will do before I take it apart to build a new
frame. I'm building a new frame from the ground up,
more of a custom, very low chopper.

                              Gadget

visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com

Where can I get that nifty pop out fuse holder for the BC 20.  It's the DC
fuse holder and I need the fuse also.  Thanks.......
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
bassoon@...
415-821-3519

I snapped a few shots of my bike with the BB600's mounted and added them to
my webpage.

http://home.comcast.net/~damonhenry/ebike.htm

I am much happier with the way it looks with these batteries.  The only
downside is that people rarely notice that it is electric now :-(

damon

Does anyone on the list know where to get service manuals-information on
the hybrid-electric buses manufactured by AVS in Chattanooga, Tn???

On Jul 13, 2005, at 10:33 AM, Rich Rudman wrote:

> Rough guesses a belt driven alternator VS a DC to DC converter, will
> drop
> your range by %20.
> Big losses for simple reasons...
>

I agree with most of what you wrote but not your result. Let me set the
stage using my Buggy -

alternator:
1 hour run time (pretty long for a 20 mile 100% DOD range)
10 Optimas (not to many watts hours on board)
Alternator with belt drive is 36% efficient (60% alternator and belt
drive)
14 volt output (used for both the Todd and Alternator numbers)
Full 20 amps for the hour (unlikely the Todd could do this)
= result of 6.5 Ah used (about 20% of range)

Todd DC>DC:
Everything above the same except I will assume that Todd is 90%
efficient
= result of 2.6 Ah used (about 8% of range)

So the worst case I can come up with is about 12% range loss. However,
that is not totally accurate because anytime I was stopping I could
still get power from the alternator without any pack power used (some
of the time is "free".) In practice I can't realistically using more
than 15 amps continuously and that is at night (headlights on.) That
takes the range loss down to 9%. Of course most cars can use more amps
(a lot more), but most are also taking it out of a considerably larger
capacity pack. Anyway, that v belt drive gets more efficient at higher
power levels (they have a rather steep no load power demand.) Another
consideration is to switch to a modern serpentine belt system saving
some of that power. To go with the modern belt drive I would suggest a
modern alternator - they put out more more is a smaller package so they
had better be more efficient (they tend to be poorly air cooled after
all.)

I considered a belt driven alternator in the EV Buggy. But the Todd
DC>DC converters where widely available back then and I found a
Pretolite motor with a real pretty end bell (and no tail shaft.) I was
going to set it up with the alternator strait above the motor and use a
chrome plated louvered VW Beetle (aftermarket) fan belt cover.

Paul "neon" G.

Lee Hart wrote:

> However, the goal here is to reduce the battery ripple current. With
> perfect zero-resistance capacitors, 1000uF is plenty because almost all
> the controller's ripple current will then flow in the capacitors, not
> the batteries.

may I ask a bone-head question?:

how is it, exactly, that the capacitors intercept/contain/filter out the
ripple current?  what is happening with the electrons/holes, etc?

...somehow, after a couple decades of hammering my head against it, I
have still failed to gain an intuitive understanding of how electronic
work at the fundamental component level...

Tim Humphrey wrote:
> A few of us may recall some idiot at the Power of DC running a 3/8"
> drill bit up through the bottom of a baby Hawker... Well, that idiot
> repaired the battery (no internal damage, thankfully) by stealing
> some plastic from the case of an old battery and melting into a pool
> in the hole of the baby Hawker, using of all things, a soldering
> iron. It smoked and stunk. But, it worked.

We are using Hawker SBS60 sealed lead-acids for our kid's BEST EVs (see
www.bestoutreach.org). The students and mentors have done some amazing
worst-case testing. For instance:

One of the batteries was dropped 3-4 feet onto a concrete floor. The
case split open along the entire length of one vertical edge, with
several pieces broken completely out at the corner. The battery didn't
leak, and worked anyway, delivering normal capacity.

Instead of recharging it, they let it sit around a couple months. When I
got it back, it was about 6 ounces lighter than normal. I added 6 ounces
of distilled water to the dried-out cell, and glued the case back shut
with plumber's ABS plastic pipe glue. It was still mostly dead, so I
recharged it. The charge cycle proceeded normally, except that I had to
restrain the broken end of the case with a metal plate and fiberglass
tape as it pressurized at full charge.

Results: It survived. Amphour capacity is down to 30ah at 25amps, where
normal ones from this batch are more like 40ah at 25amps.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
	 -- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> I used uChip's linear temp sensor (TC1047A if I recall) if you
> don't want to linearize in software. In general, silicon PTC
> sensors are my preferred choice.

I agree. PTC sensors are basically just resistors that change their
value with temperature. It's very hard to hurt them environmentally,
mess them up due to noise.

PTCs have such a large resistance change with temperature that you can
often just connect a long string of them in series, and if any one gets
hot, it opens the circuit much like a bimetal switch.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
	 -- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

Lawrence,
   On the BC-20 that I have, the previous own just replaced that fuse with a
rectangular fuse that he tucked inside the case.  Seems to work fine.  Let
me know if you'd like to see a picture.

Bill Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...] On
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 2:45 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List; Zappylist
Subject: K & W BC 20 broke DC fuse holder

Where can I get that nifty pop out fuse holder for the BC 20.  It's the DC
fuse holder and I need the fuse also.  Thanks.......
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
bassoon@...
415-821-3519

Hi Bill-
If by "rectangular fuse" you mean the bladed (ATC?) automotive type
fuse, then this is NOT fine. These fuses are rated for only 32VDC and
will arc and melt and potentially catch fire if used at typical EV
traction pack voltages.  My mother's EV suffered from just such a fire
because the previous owner had used these bladed fuses for the low
power/high voltage fuse box!
I strongly recommended that you get high-voltage rated fuses!
Be safe.
cheers,
Andrew

Bill Dennis wrote:

>Lawrence,
>  On the BC-20 that I have, the previous own just replaced that fuse with a
>rectangular fuse that he tucked inside the case.  Seems to work fine.  Let
>me know if you'd like to see a picture.
>
>Bill Dennis
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...] On
>Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
>Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 2:45 PM
>To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List; Zappylist
>Subject: K & W BC 20 broke DC fuse holder
>
>Where can I get that nifty pop out fuse holder for the BC 20.  It's the DC
>fuse holder and I need the fuse also.  Thanks.......
>Lawrence Rhodes
>Bassoon/Contrabassoon
>Reedmaker
>Book 4/5 doubler
>Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
>bassoon@...
>415-821-3519
>
>
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----
   From: Lawrence Rhodes<mailto:bassoon@...>
   To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<mailto:ev@...> ;
Zappylist<mailto:zappy@yahoogroups.com>
   Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 3:44 PM
   Subject: K & W BC 20 broke DC fuse holder


   Where can I get that nifty pop out fuse holder for the BC 20.  It's the DC
   fuse holder and I need the fuse also.  Thanks.......
   Lawrence Rhodes
   Bassoon/Contrabassoon
   Reedmaker
   Book 4/5 doubler
   Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
   bassoon@...<mailto:bassoon@...>
   415-821-3519

   Go to Radioshack.com . This is a commercial division of which you can get more
of a heavy duty items than from Radio Shack in your town.

   Or if you have a industrial electrical supply house, they have heavy duty 600
volt rating fuse holders, panel mounted or track mount like a terminal strip.  I
have those with a fuse indicator that lites up when blown.

   Roland

----- Original Message -----
   From: Lawrence Rhodes<mailto:bassoon@...>
   To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<mailto:ev@...> ;
Zappylist<mailto:zappy@yahoogroups.com>
   Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 3:44 PM
   Subject: K & W BC 20 broke DC fuse holder


   Where can I get that nifty pop out fuse holder for the BC 20.  It's the DC
   fuse holder and I need the fuse also.  Thanks.......
   Lawrence Rhodes
   Bassoon/Contrabassoon
   Reedmaker
   Book 4/5 doubler
   Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
   bassoon@...<mailto:bassoon@...>
   415-821-3519

Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> That said, I still have an image of John soaking in energy
> from LiIon cells (made in my garage). John may decide to
> include it to his site :-)

Not to disparage your retouching skills.. but can we get the original image?

Thanks
Mark Farver

How many amps at 120 volts can a stock adc 8" motor take?
I know the ratings for 5 minutes, 1hour and constant, but what about 5 or 10
seconds at a time.  Does voltage sag from batteries jack up the amperage that a
motor sees?  I currently have a 96v civic 16) x 6v  It has a curtis 1231c 7701
that has overheated (heat sink fan failed) and it popped its endcap. It still
works fairly well but I seem to lose power after it heats up. I am trying to
choose a new controller and am leaning toward a 1K zilla LV.  Is this controller
overkill?  I am looking for range and decent performance less than or equal to
stock gas civic.

On my next battery purchase I want to go to 136 volts 17) x 8v. and I am
wondering where I would set the amps limit. I read about racers dumping large
amounts of amps into these motors, but I am assuming they are modified.
Currently I have trouble just getting to freeway speeds I pull 300 350 battery
amps sometimes less trying to accelerate.  Will a Zilla change that or are the
batteries the limiting factor?
Thanks
-Mike  92 honda Civic

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

How much weight do you have in that black box?
How did that change the handling compared to
the arraingement you had before?
Rod
P.S. Cool looking bike! My BB600's are still in the
boxes in my garage, all 248 of them (I did a
commishioning charge on 2 of them, 56 Ahr for each).

--- damon henry <damonhenry@...> wrote:

> I snapped a few shots of my bike with the BB600's
> mounted and added them to
> my webpage.
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~damonhenry/ebike.htm
>
> I am much happier with the way it looks with these
> batteries.  The only
> downside is that people rarely notice that it is
> electric now :-(
>
> damon
>
>

Ryan Stotts wrote:
> What might be the min/max hz a motor could be ran at? What's the
> deal about the windings being wound for "50/60 hz" and what happens
> if other hz are used? What happens when the volts/amps going into
> the motor are adjusted? How does that effect it?

All motor nameplates just give you one operating point. If you apply
this voltage/frequency, then you will get this current/rpm/horsepower.
This one data point is usually somewhere near the "optimum" for best
efficiency and life (where "life" depends on the intended application).

But, you can apply many other voltages/frequencies, and the motor still
runs just fine. But its performance changes accordingly.

Let's assume you are talking about an ordinary consumer-grade AC
induction motor.

- Frequency is the primary determiner of speed (rpm). Halve the
   frequency, and it runs half as fast; double the frequency and
   it doubles the speed, etc.

- The maximum frequency is limited by the mechanical strength of
   the rotor. Spin it too fast, and it flys to pieces. Normal
   consumer stuff can survive to 5000-8000 rpm. If the motor is
   rated (say) 3600 rpm and can survive 7200 rpm, then you can
   run it at up to 60hz x 2 = 120hz.

- The maximum current is set by the winding resistance. The more
   the current, the hotter the motor gets. The limit comes when the
   insulation on the wire burns up and fails. If you go above rated
   current, you need to increase cooling or shorten the running time.
   It is common to run much higher currents, as long as you do so for
   a short enough time so it doesn't have time to overheat.

- The maximum voltage is set by how good the winding insulation is.
   Most consumer-grade motors are UL listed, which means a 120vac
   motor must survive at least 10 times this voltage. This is done
   to be sure it can survive power surges, transients, lightning
   strikes, etc.

- The maximum temperature is limited by the motor's insulation
   (and sometimes by the grease or oil in the bearings). Common
   motor insulation is limited to 130 deg.C or 180 deg.C.

So, you pick the frequency to determine the speed. Then you pick the
voltage and frequency to actually reach that speed with the given load.

AC induction motors generally vary the voltage and frequency together.
If it is rated (say) 120vac and 60hz, then at 120hz you need to apply
240vac. The current draw at double the frequency and voltage will
basically be unchanged, and the motor won't run any hotter. The motor
might last half as long simply because its bearing will wear out twice
as fast.

If you reduce the voltage (at a given frequency), you have to reduce the
load on the motor or it will stall. If it can still maintain speed with
the reduced voltage, it will also draw less current.

If you raise the voltage (at a given frequency), it can support a
heavier load but will overheat sooner.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
	 -- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

Hi Damon and All,

--- damon henry <damonhenry@...> wrote:

> I snapped a few shots of my bike with the BB600's
> mounted and added them to
> my webpage.
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~damonhenry/ebike.htm
>
> I am much happier with the way it looks with these
> batteries.  The only
> downside is that people rarely notice that it is
> electric now :-(

     It looks much better but lacks range it could
easily have.
     I'd cut the forward lower frame tubes at the
bottom and bend them forward then put in 2 inserts to
reconnect them back should give you enough room to
double your batt cap and still keep them in the frame
and looking good.
      Next is make 2- 1/2 round brackets of SS like MC
windshields do and attached to the unsprung part of
the front forks low and the handlebars high well raked
to hold a U shaped fairing with the top of the U
facing aft and just wide enough to keep your body,
bike in it's wind shadow. But better to be too wide
than too narrow!!
     It should be as low as the frame is and as high as
your forehead and rounded from side to side over the
top like most bike windsheilds are and round the
bottom the same way.
      It could be made from 1/16-3/32 clear lexan so
not to change the looks of the bike much as you'd like
it not too.
      This is quite simple and should give you quite
good range of about 50% better at speed for the front
fairing and possibly 2x more than that for the second
battery string if used.
     Or one could go for more voltage single string
for better power and still keep most of the range if
you don't go faster but there when you want it.
     You asked for easy and increased range without
changing the looks much so here is a way to do just
that.
      If both are done, you could go to Wayland's house
and back without charging and many other places
making your EV MC much more useful and comfortable in
those NW rains, cold and easier to hold on at your new
higher speeds!!
                 HTH's,
                    Jerry Dycus
   BTW, keep the batts out of the sun as sunlight will
eat the cases up!!

>
> damon
>
>




__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

Sure - just take out "a" at the end of URL:
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/li-ion_plasma-1.jpg

Victor

Mark Farver wrote:
> Victor Tikhonov wrote:
>
>> That said, I still have an image of John soaking in energy
>> from LiIon cells (made in my garage). John may decide to
>> include it to his site :-)
>
>
> Not to disparage your retouching skills.. but can we get the original
> image?
>
> Thanks
> Mark Farver

Motorcycle rear and swing axle for a 2F1R (Jerry)?

I visualize a motor on one side and an ICE on the other with variable pulley
drives,  no brakes.

Would this be feasible as far as being able to fit it in between the swing
arms?

BoyntonStu

Hi all,

I've been out of town for a while and just catching up around here...

David Roden Wrote (7/5/2005):
> I've often wondered whether the industrial and forklift DC motors we
> usually use in conversions are really up to handling the considerable
> thrust exerted parallel to the motor shaft when an automotive clutch
> is disengaged.

Paul Compton Wrote (7/5/2005):
> Not this old chestnut again! The motors we use have single row deep
> groove bearings at both ends of the armature. These are quite capable
> of taking thrust loads although the comm end bearing is usually able
> to 'float' in its housing to accomodate thermal expansion.

Interesting stuff to know. It never occurred to me that the force from
the clutch throwout bearing might negatively affect the life of the
motor bearings. Oh well, I'm just going to cross my fingers that the new
bearings I installed will last a long time (because there's no way in
hell I'm taking all that apart again anytime soon)  :-)

jerry dycus wrote:
  > And a great reason not to use a clutch since you will be rarely
  > shifting gears anyways, though Nick would need more shifting in his
  > rather heavy EV.

For me having the clutch is a must. Thanks to the Zilla's high power, I
can start out it 2nd (and sometimes 3rd) gear if I want. However, by
doing so I heat up my motor and Zilla _really_ quick... so I don't do
it. I always start in 1st gear and work my way up (while trying to
maintain high motor speed for efficiency). Of course, now that I have my
new transmission installed, my Jeep behaves differently (different shift
points, etc..), so I'm trying to learn the best way to drive it again.

--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------

Thanks to all, this is starting to take shape
First of all it looked like Garret Maki's 84 Yamaha FJ1100 "piggy"  It
sounds like the ADC 6.7 volt is a good fit or the pair of eteks.
I am not light, so undersizing the motors would be an error.
Jerry said fairing  double range at speed, WOW!

I do like the idea of series/parallel, do 2 eteks in series (electrical)
have more torque than a 6.7?

The batteries in the saddle bags is an awsome idea, it looks right and
gives me 2 more batteries.

Thanks Jerry, I wasn't thinking about the different windings for the
6.7, good point.

It seeems like getting enough batteries on board for decent range is the
real challenge.

Hey rich, do you have BLDC motors and controllers that would do nicely
on a MC?

I will have to do some calculations on just how much torque I need.

Hi,

Tim M Wrote:
> I also picked up an Iota DLS-55 DC/DC converter. -snip- Based on these
> numbers I decided to only have the DC/DC run when the truck is "on".

Ryan Bohm wrote:
  > I *had* my Iota DC/DC converters switched on by these relays: I say
  > "had" the Iota connected using relays because I have recently changed
  > that.  I got tired of wearing down my 12V SLI, and my pack during
  > charging only goes up to about 172V - right about at the limit that
  > the Iota likes to see, but not exceeding it.

I just wanted to comment that I feel the same way as Ryan regarding this
issue. Back when all was good and I was using my DCP DC/DC converter
(before it zorched itself --multiple times), I had my Jeep wired so the
DC/DC was always on. Although my DC/DC's output was typically maxed out
while driving (thanks to my constantly running MR2 pump), things worked
okay because my little 12-volt battery would get charged up fully when
the Jeep was sitting.

With my DCP unit out of commission, I ended up buying a Todd DC/DC as a
temporary (now looking like a permanent) replacement. The converter
works about as good as the DCP unit when the car is on, being that
they're both rated at 30-amps. However, right now I've got the Todd
wired so it's on only when my Jeep is on, to avoid blowing it up while
charging my pack at 194-207 volts. This arrangement leaves a lot to be
desired, as my 12-volt system never seems to be as perky as it was
before, especially when the Jeep is off. To avoid murdering my 12-volt
AGM battery, I find myself having to charge the 12-volt battery with a
stand-alone 12-volt charger after every five or six trips.... which is a
pain. My point is keep you're DC/DC converter running all the time if
you can... so you can avoid having a weak 12-volt system that you always
have to worry about.

--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------

--- Nick Viera <jeepev@...> wrote:
>
> For me having the clutch is a must. Thanks to the Zilla's high power, I
> can start out it 2nd (and sometimes 3rd) gear if I want. However, by
> doing so I heat up my motor and Zilla _really_ quick... so I don't do
> it. I always start in 1st gear and work my way up (while trying to
> maintain high motor speed for efficiency). Of course, now that I have my
> new transmission installed, my Jeep behaves differently (different shift
> points, etc..), so I'm trying to learn the best way to drive it again.
>
Another minor point to add to this discussion. I recently replaced the bearings
in my 9" ADC with
a new set of sealed NTN bearings, $42 from a local motor shop. There was nothing
wrong, I just
felt it was worth doing before installing the motor. Prior to replacement the
bearings, the motor
running on the bench with no load would draw around 35 amps from my 12volt NiCad
pack. After
replacement the motor was only drawing 20 amps. Seems like an improvement to me.

Dave Cover

Hello to All,

"BillDube@..." wrote:

> At 09:33 AM 7/11/2005, you wrote:
> >Hell to All,
>
>          I know the feeling. :^)

First, my apologies for the 'Hell to All' bit...damn, I've done that before, too
:-(

>
>
>          I was hoping to see a picture of the Purple Phase, but, alas, just
> a white box with a red x. <sigh>

Don't give up hope, Bill. I found out just yesterday, that I've received full
sponsorship
for bodywork and paint for Purple Phaze...yes! It might be a few weeks, heck,
maybe even a
month, but the truck 'will' be cherried out, and there will be a picture of the
purple
beauty when that happens. All the other pieces are pretty much in place, so the
drag truck
will be together in no time once we have it back from the body shop.

>
>
>          I was amused to see that the longest section was "Wayland's Words".

You aint seen noth'n yet :-) Right now, it's just a filler type blog. I've got
bigger
plans to make that section fun, entertaining, and hopefully, informative, but
that will
have to wait until I get my high speed cable connected in a couple more weeks.
I've got
internet writings dating back to around late '94...to the present, that's nearly
11 years
worth!!

The 'Reviews' section is pretty much none existent right now, but it will
consist mostly
of writings by others who have experienced my EVs and EV craziness in person.
Care to send
me the write up you wrote so many years ago that covered your first ever trip to
the
Wayland EV laboratory, Bill?
Anyone else, too, is invited to send me copies of their emails about visits
here, but only
if you don't mind having them displayed at the 'Reviews' section.

More video clips are being added all the time, so keep checking in every once in
a while
to see if there's something new to watch. We hope to have the fully completed
Zombie vs
300+ hp Mustang race video ready late next week, the one that will have
spectator comments
and the interview with the Mustang driver, but we'll probably put up the current
one
that's set to AC/DC music in the next day or so. Though many of these clips are
large and
will need to be downloaded via a fast connection of some sorts, and even though
I'm
finally coming out of the dark ages with a cable modem setup soon, I'll always
remember
there are many who have dial-up slower speeds. I'll always have smaller video
clips that
won't take too much longer than 7-10 minutes per clip, for those with dial-up
accounts to
enjoy. It's really weird that right now, Tim with his DSL account is sending up
videos
that I can't possibly download without locking up my computer on the telephone
line for
hours on end.

See Ya.......John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland

EV Digest 4501

Topics covered in this issue include:

   1) Re: Motorcycle for electric
	 by mreish <mreish@...>
   2) RE: Plastic welder
	 by "Tim Humphrey" <hump@...>
   3) Re: Air conditioner etc
	 by "Roland Wiench" <ev_7@...>
   4) RE: Motor cycle for electric
	 by "Chris Tromley" <chris_t@...>
   5) Re: MC EV drive Set ups / eff   Re: Motor cycle for electric
	 by "Philippe Borges" <philippe.borges@...>
   6) ebay battery boxes for sale ...
	 by "Steve Hawkins" <steveh@...>
   7) RE: Motor cycle for electric
	 by "damon henry" <damonhenry@...>
   8) Peukert's equation answers from a battery engineer, Part 1
	 by Eric Poulsen <evlist@...>
   9) Peukert's equation answers from a battery engineer, Part 2
	 by Eric Poulsen <evlist@...>
  10) Peukert's equation answers from a battery engineer, Part 3 (final)
	 by Eric Poulsen <evlist@...>
  11) Re: Air conditioner etc
	 by Dave Cover <davecover@...>
  12) Re: OT: Another idea that probably won't work
	 by Victor Tikhonov <vtikhono@...>
  13) Re: Plastic welder, Thank You!
	 by Dave Cover <davecover@...>
  14) Re: Motor cycle for electric
	 by Eric Poulsen <evlist@...>
  15) FW: Electric '59 MGA Roadster for Sale
	 by "Grannes, Dean" <dean.grannes@...>
  16) Re: Air conditioner etc
	 by "Rich Rudman" <rmanzan@...>
  17) How about my rear end?
	 by "Stu or Jan" <stu@...>
  18) Re: battery temperature measurement
	 by Victor Tikhonov <vtikhono@...>
  19) Re: Air conditioner etc
	 by "Roland Wiench" <ev_7@...>

Don't forget:
http://www.electricmotorcycles.net/



>Some emotorcycle links-
>
>EV Album Motorcycles
>http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/motorcycles.html
>
>Reverend Gadget's Electric Motorcycle
>http://reverendgadget.com/subpage1.html
>
>Killa Cycle
>World's Quickest Electric Motorcycle
>9.45 seconds @ 152.07 mph in the 1/4 mile:
>http://www.killacycle.com
>
>Vectrix Electric Bike
>http://www.vectrixusa.com
>
>Electric Motorsport Motorcycles
>http://www.electricmotorsport.com
>
>Jackal Electric Bike
>http://thunderstruck-ev.com/jackal_home.htm

--

A hypothetical times a hypothetical divided by a questionable is
unusable.

This doesn't really answer your questions Dave.......

A few of us may recall some idiot at the Power of DC running a 3/8" drill bit up
through the bottom of a baby Hawker
in the corner while drilling a mounting bolt hole for the newly formed battery
hold down cage.  Well, that idiot
repaired the battery (no internal damage, thankfully) by stealing some plastic
from the case of an old battery and
melting into a pool in the hole of the baby Hawker, using of all things, a
soldering iron. It smoked and stunk. But,
it worked.

I melted the plastic and let it drip into the hole until full, then used the tip
of the iron to just stir it around a
little until the puddle looked like it was fusing to the case. Let it cool and
presto, nowhere near as good as new,
but it's sealed.



--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"Ignorance is treatable, with a good prognosis. However, if left untreated, it
develops into Arrogance, which is often
fatal. :-)" -- Lee Hart

Get your own FREE evgrin.com email address;
send a request to ryan at evsourcecom


>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...] On
> Behalf Of Dave Cover
> Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 1:34 PM
> To: ev@...
> Subject: Plastic welder
>
> Hi all,
>
> I'm planning on making my battery boxes with steel (bed)frames and then
> lining them with plastic boxes and lids. HDPE seems like the right material.
> Does anyone have a recommendation for a plastic welder? I've seen a variety
> but don't know what options I need and what don't matter. eBay has all kinds
> and prices.
>
> Wattage?
>
> Temp range?
>
> Airless? (I have a compressor.)
>
> Do the rods have to be of the same material as the box?
>
> Can I glue/bond/epoxy the boxes instead of welding?
>
> Fiberglass over thin plywood instead?
>
> Any input is appreciated.
>
> Thanks
>
> Dave Cover
>

Hell Jeff,

This will give you some ideal of what energy it takes to run a A/C.

The A/C unit is a smaller FACE MOUNTING UNIT, not the large old units that weigh
over 50 lbs.

I am running not only the A/C, but the Power Steering, Vacuum pump and
Alternator off the main motor pilot shaft which shows 188 volts drop down from
192 volts at 4 amps to run the A/C while driving the others under no load.

This is with the A/C full on, while Power Steering and Alternator is not
running.

The wattage would be 188 x 4 = 752 watts or close to 1 hp.   If you try to run 
a 12 volt motor to run the A/C than the ampere would be about 752/12 = 62 amps!!
which would be a too much.

You either run small drive motors off the DC battery pack or used a very large
DC/DC or DC/AC inverter of the battery pack.

I could not used a large DC/AC inverter in my already large car which is jam
pack and have no more room.  I would have to have a bigger car. The DC/AC
inverter to run all my accessories, is about 18 inches long by 12 inches high
and 12 inches deep which has a output of 125/250 VAC 60 Hz at 6000 watts. Which
would weigh over 100 lbs.

Therefore it was much simpler for me to run the accessories of the pilot shaft
of the main motor, like a engine does.  It works great.  Used standard units
that you can get at any auto parts store.

When I start up the EV from a standing stop and starting moving, these units
fire up, the alternator needs about 500 rpm to excite which is about 3 mph in
1st gear or reverse.

I used a idle stop on the accelerator linkage that I can activated, so I can run
these units for maintenance and testing.

When I coast to a stop or down hill, all these accessories are still running,
while the amp meters are reading O amps!!  This is like a mechanical REGEN.

In the winter time when the streets and hills are icy, I can turn on close to
3000 watts of heating systems, lights and all other power I can turn on.  This
mechanical REGEN slows me down going down a steep hill like a ICE compression of
a engine in first gear.

When I come to a stop at a intersection. I do not have to apply any brakes, the
Mech.REGEN slows me down to a stop while generating power to the accessories at
0 amps on battery pack!

Roland


   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Jeff Shanab<mailto:jshanab@...>
   To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<mailto:ev@...>
   Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2005 7:31 PM
   Subject: Air conditioner etc


   I live in fresno and today is 104 and they are predicting 110 later this
   week, whew.
   I want to ask how much energy do you guys find it takes to run an air
   conditioner, Especially in climates like mine. I assume there are 3
   motors involved, the one for the compressor, the one for the
   condensor(radiator) and the one for the evaporator(blower)

    The heat never use to bother me but after the last round of
   prescriptions from my doctor, it is becoming a real problem. I need to
   size the motor for the 1987 300zx ans I am thinking of buying two of
   everything and retrofitting the AC unit in the ICE car to, just so I can
   leave the AC running while I pop into the store or while I am in the
   dreaded gas station. I noticed today while at the bank that a lot of
   people leave ther cars running(sacralidge) just to run the AC in this
   town, I don't want to join that group!

   I think I could decrease my usage of gas if I ran the power steering and
   AC off of batteries in the trunk and recharged them each night, (very
   mild hybrid)

Jeff Shanab wrote:

> My bosses kid has a yamaha motorcycle in pieces in the back of the plant
> and my boss was asking if I wanted it to turn it into an EV.  I have
> never been much of a motorcycle person, but how much motor and batteries
> and controller would make a reasonable project?  This is one of those
> ninja style bikes, pretty big frame.

Hi Jeff,

A Yamaha that is "ninja style" is probably a 600 - 1200 cc sport bike.  A
600 or 750 would be a good choice - big enough to fit stuff, not too heavy.
If you can find out what year and model it is, your choice should be easier.

My approach with this would be to *not* embarrass EVs everywhere by
installing a foo-foo EV drivetrain.  It doesn't do the cause any good when
you take a stock gas street bike that could easily out-accelerate all but a
few of the NEDRA record holders and "improve" it to the point where it
barely reaches 65 mph.  What most people don't get is that adequate power is
a valuable safety feature.

Besides, foo-foo bikes aren't any fun.  The fact that you will need lots of
batteries for any useful range means it will be heavy, which emphasizes the
need for some serious grunt.  I would go with a 6.7 ADC motor, thirteen 26
Ah Hawkers and a Zilla Z1k.  That's a total weight of around 600 lbs., 300
of which is lead.  (If you decide on some sort of flooded batteries, make
very sure they won't get punctured in a crash - you might be swimming in
electrolyte.)  Experiment with motor volts, motor amps and gearing to get
the performance you want.  A sport bike glider will easily handle it.

I was able to arrange (on paper) all those components in a Kawasaki EX500,
but that's no guarantee you can do the same on that Yamaha.  Some of the
sport bikes have twin spar frames that put metal exactly where you don't
want it.  Pick your batteries, make a cardboard mockup and see.

I hope you give this a try.  So far no one to my knowledge has made an EM
with motorcycle-appropriate performance that's in daily use.  (Though some
have come close, and could get there easily).  Someone needs to.  Oh, and if
you do, *please* post the weight of the glider.  That's the most important
figure of merit when deciding on which bike to convert.

Chris

----- Original Message -----
From: "jerry dycus" <jerry5335@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 1:33 PM
Subject: MC EV drive Set ups / eff Re: Motor cycle for electric


> > fun commuter
> > etek
> > 72V450A Alltrax
> > 72V 40Ah kokam
>
>     You really need 2 Etek's if you want to do any
> kind of power or speed over 50mph or good hill
> climbing ability. Series/parallel them and you need
> 1/2 less controller for the same power. And you could
> add a bypass contactor for better top end power.
>     Also while we would love Kokam's, this size pack
> would be $8-10K?

$3200 :^)

note i don't choose etek for lots of power but to have more range >>>fun
(light and 72V) COMMUTER

Philippe

Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
  http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php

I have just listed two 3 position battery boxes on ebay for those
persons interested.  They were from a TeVan I parted out a year ago.  I
also have a 3rd unit I will be offering . total capacity of all 3 boxes
= 9 regular sized batteries.  These are very high quality mfged units.

Item #s as follows .

4561983331

4561983331

>I hope you give this a try.  So far no one to my knowledge has made an EM
>with motorcycle-appropriate performance that's in daily use.  (Though some
>have come close, and could get there easily).  Someone needs to. Chris
>
>

If this is what you hope to see, then suggesting he use lead for batteries
makes no sense.  The only thing available that has a shot of getting true
motorcycle like performance are some big Kokam LiPolys.  Sure he can slap a
bunch of Hawkers on there and make it out accelerate a car, but the batts
will be pooped out after the second or third stop light.  Besides if you
have ever seen these gasser sports bikes at the drag strip compared to Nedra
motorcycles, the performance is not even close.  I believe it was Brian Hall
that I saw break into the 100mph club at Woodburn.  I regularly see sports
bikes running in the 8's and 9's and close to 140mph on the nights I go see
Wayland race at PIR.  They run at these speeds all night long, then the
owners ride them home.

Because of the awful aerodynamics an EV motorcycle has even less chance
replacing the perforance of it's gasser equivilant.

I have put a couple of thousand miles on my EM and couldn't be happier that
I built it.  It accelerates about the same as an average car, tops out ot
60mph, and gives me a good 15 to 20 mile range.  It still looks like a real
motorcycle, and I can give my kids or wife a ride.  I have never met a
motorcycle guy who didn't think it was cool, especially when they take it
for a ride.

damon

I sent my peukert question to a battery engineer.  I'd like to state
publicly that Mr. Marino's assertions about the equation (the "units
debate") appear to be quite correct, and that I was obviously barking up
the wrong tree.  I've taken Mr. Kamath's comments and modified my
original program to be dimensionless, and it seems to work quite well.

Below is listed my original email, and his response.  I'm going to post
the other replies in other emails

===============================

Mr. Kamath,

I have a question regarding Peukert's equation, and I'm hoping you can
settle a dispute between myself and another individual.  You wrote a
review of "Handbook of Batteries" for Amazon, which is how I got your
name.  You mentioned you were a battery engineer.  I'm hoping you'll
indulge my questions.

My research indicates that Peukert's equation, relating to the discharge
of lead-acid batteries is this:

I ** n * T = Cp

I is current
n is the Peukert's exponent
T is time
Cp is Peukert's capacity in amp-hours
** means exponentation or "raised to"

1) Is this Peukerts equation?

2) Assuming n = 2, it has been asserted (by the other individual) that
this equation is not valid because the units on each side of the
equation are not the same:

I ** 2 * T = Cp

  or

amp-amp-hours = amp-hours  (since I is squared, this makes the units on
the left different)

I contend that raising I to n does not modify the units.

Can you clear this up, or point to a reference (preferrably a book;
unfortunately, my library does not carry "Handbook of Batteries") that
is authoritative about Peukert's equation?  The other individual in this
dispute insists that "someone on the internet posted the equation wrong,
and all the other websites copied it."

Thank you for your time.

-- Eric Poulsen


===============================

Mr. Poulsen,

Peukert's equation is a simple empirical curve fit; that is, it merely
describes the data, without attempting to explain the theoretical
reasons behind them.

The equation as you've written it works okay, but if you want to be
mathematically rigorous, you can make the equation dimensionless to fix
the units:

(I/I')**n * (T/T') = 1

where I' is some characteristic current and T' is the discharge time for
the battery at current I'.  Note that you have to define one of these
two constants for a given battery design; the other will come out of
empirical data, as will n.  Note that the right side has no units here;
if you wish, you can think of it as (Cp/Cp') where Cp' = I'**n * T' = Cp
(since Cp is the same for all I and T, including I' and T').  In this
equation, the units work out correctly.

If you don't make it dimensionless, you are effectively setting I' = 1
Amp.  When you do the empirical tests, you will find that Cp will be the
same as the time in hours at the 1 A rate.  This is obvious if you
consider that:

(I/I')**n * (T/T') = 1  ==>  (I/I')**n * T = T'

Note that here the units for the right side of the equation work out to
be hours, not A-h.  If you want it to be amp-hours on the right side,
just multiply both sides by I':

I' * (I/I')**n * T = T' * I' = C

(Note that C here is different from the Cp above.)

Someone then (incorrectly) canceled the I' on the left side, and found
that the equation still worked (since I' = 1 Amp).  This led to the form
you have.

In the early days of batteries, there was little attempt to reconcile
units, especially since most of the science was (and continues to be)
empirical.  As a result, we are left with a lot of equations in which
the units don't match up.  All of these methods will work, as long as
you keep your definitions straight.

There's nothing magic about Peukert's equation -- it's only a curve fit,
developed at a time when curve fits were not easy to produce.  It's
really hard to use in sizing because the variables depend as much on
your application -- particularly cutoff voltage -- as they do on your
battery.  The only time I've seen the equation used is when you're
trying to estimate state-of-charge for a battery or when you're
comparing the current capabilities of different batteries.  Frankly,
it's not very good in either application.  You're better off using the
capacity and time tables that battery manufacturers distribute.  If you
must have an equation, you can easily come up with one as good or better
with all the computing power we have, simply by taking the raw (or
specified) data from a battery and using a spreadsheet program to
extrapolate a nth degree polymomial curve fit or some other formula.

I hope it helps.

- Haresh

Part 2

==========================

  Mr. Kamath,

This is a much more extensive answer than I could have hoped for; thank
you very much.

The problem was estimating SOC by measuring current used while driving
an electric vehicle.  The idea was to have several current samples per
second (since current loads are extremely variable in such a vehicle)
logged to an on-board computer, then use Peukert's to do "coulomb
counting" in order to determine SOC.  In other words, the application is
essentially a "battery gas gauge" for an electric vehicle.

This topic originally came up on the Electric Vehicle Discussion List
(EVDL).  Would it be okay if I re-posted your response there?  I won't
post your email address.

Thank you for your time.

  -- Eric

==========================

Eric,

Sure, feel free to post it.

Two more things to note:  First, for your application, you can calculate
the change in SOC by summing the Peukert's equation over time:

DOD = 1 - SOC = sum (I**n * delta T)

This is actually not a very good reflection of what is going on in the
battery, but it will serve your purposes reasonably and conservatively.


Secondly, from a practical standpoint:  if you choose to use the
non-dimensionless version of Peukert's, keep in mind that the nameplate
ampere-hour capacity of a battery (the capacity specified by the
manufacturer) is almost never the capacity at 1 A.  You will have to
test the battery to find out what the capacity is at 1A.

If you use the dimensionless version, you can use the nameplate current
as the characteristic current I', and the nameplate time as T'.  The
commercial capacity rating will be I' * T'.  So if the battery is rated
as 150 A-h at the 5 hour rate, I' = 30 A, and T' = 5 hours.

I hope it helps,

- Haresh

Part 3 (final)

====================

> Eric,
>
> Sure, feel free to post it.

Great, thanks.

>
> Two more things to note:  First, for your application, you can
> calculate the change in SOC by summing the Peukert's equation over time:
>
> DOD = 1 - SOC = sum (I**n * delta T)

That's what I figured.  If you were sampling current each second, you'd
take your dataset and do I ** n * (1/3600), (non-dimensionless) assumes
amps and hours, and t is set to 1 because of sampling frequency; you'd
arrive at an Ah value.

>
> This is actually not a very good reflection of what is going on in the
> battery, but it will serve your purposes reasonably and conservatively.
>
>
> Secondly, from a practical standpoint:  if you choose to use the
> non-dimensionless version of Peukert's, keep in mind that
> the nameplate ampere-hour capacity of a battery (the capacity
> specified by the manufacturer) is almost never the capacity at 1 A.
> You will have to test the battery to find out what the capacity is at 1A.

I think it's typically the 20 hour rate, which means dimensionless will
only work for a 20Ah battery.  I assume you mean using the
non-dimensionless version of peukert's to determine the exponent (n).
If n is already known, then I can simply use the DOD equation above,
correct?

>
> If you use the dimensionless version, you can use the nameplate
> current as the characteristic current I', and the nameplate time as
> T'.  The commercial capacity rating will be I' * T'.  So if
> the battery is rated as 150 A-h at the 5 hour rate, I' = 30 A, and T'
> = 5 hours.

But I'd have to determine T and I (as opposed to T' and I') by
discharging the battery myself at a different rate.  I would think that
I'd have to know the charged and discharged voltage levels used by the
manufacturer in order to make my T & I values valid when used with the
T' and I' give my the manuf.  Alternatively, I could pick my own
charged/discharged voltages (have to look these up), and measure T, T',
I, I' myself.

>
> I hope it helps,

Immensely! Thanks

====================

Eric,

Responses below...

  > > Two more things to note:  First, for your application, you
  > > can calculate the change in SOC by summing the Peukert's
  > > equation over time:
  >
  > > DOD = 1 - SOC = sum (I**n * delta T)
  > That's what I figured.  If you were sampling current each
  > second, you'd take your dataset and do I ** n * (1/3600),
  > (non-dimensionless) assumes amps and hours, and t is set to 1
  > because of sampling frequency; you'd arrive at an Ah value.

Not quite... I cut a corner here by using dimensionless I and T  in the
equation, which are (I/I') and (T/T') respectively.  DOD and SOC here
are measured in percent, as a percent of the nominal capacity of the
battery.  Nominal capacity would be I'*T'.  Using I and T with regular
dimensions would give you a pseudo-capacity... Depending on what
accuracy you want, it may be close enough to the capacity used for your
purposes.

  > > This is actually not a very good reflection of what is going
  > > on in the battery, but it will serve your purposes reasonably
  > > and conservatively.
  >
  > > Secondly, from a practical standpoint:  if you choose to use
  > > the non-dimensionless version of Peukert's, keep in mind that
  > > the nameplate ampere-hour capacity of a battery (the capacity
  > > specified by the manufacturer) is almost never the capacity
  > > at 1 A.  You will have to test the battery to find out what
  > > the capacity is at 1A.
  >
  > I think it's typically the 20 hour rate, which means
  > dimensionless will only work for a 20Ah battery.  I assume
  > you mean using the non-dimensionless version of peukert's to
  > determine the exponent (n).  If n is already known, then I
  > can simply use the DOD equation above, correct?

Dimensionless will work for any battery, provided you define I' and T'
properly.  If you have a battery rated for 500 Ah at the 20 hour rate,
then T' is 20 hours, and I' is 25 A.  If n is defined by the
manufacturer, they have probably calculated it at this rate.

As you suggest, n will change somewhat depending on the rates at which
you measure the capacity of the battery.  Ideally, n is calculated
across a broad range of current rates, but I doubt that many data points
near the 1 A rate are included.  So using n in the dimensioned DOD
equation will probably lead to an inaccurate result.  But realistically,
it may be accurate enough.  The best way to figure out how much it
matters is to test it.

  > > If you use the dimensionless version, you can use the
  > > nameplate current as the characteristic current I', and the
  > > nameplate time as T'.  The commercial capacity rating will be
  > > I' * T'.  So if the battery is rated as 150 A-h at the 5 hour
  > > rate, I' = 30 A, and T' = 5 hours.

  > But I'd have to determine
  > T and I (as opposed to T' and I') by discharging the battery
  > myself at a different rate.

Just for clarity, let me restate the DOD equation fully, which I
neglected to do properly the first time:

DOD_m = 1 - SOC = sum(from m=0 to m=m) {(I_m/I')**n * [(delta T)/T']}
(Dimensionless)

(where I_m means I at moment m)

DOD_m is dimensionless:  0 is a fully charged battery, and 1 is a fully
discharged battery.  T' is the manufacturer's rated discharge time, and
I' is the manufacturer's discharge current, where I' * T' = the
nameplate rating for the battery at the rated discharge time.  So for a
battery rated at 500 Ah at the 20 hour rate, I' = 500 Ah / 20 h = 25 A.
The manufacturer should also calculate n at the

I_m is the measured current for a given sample interval.  Since the
sample interval will be constant, the only variable is I.  The output
will be a fraction of the nameplate rating:  If DOD_m = 0.75, then the
battery is 75% depleted, and has been drained of 375 Ah.  It would have
125 Ah left (at the 20 h rate).

  >  I would think that I'd have to
  > know the charged and discharged voltage levels used by the
  > manufacturer in order to make my T & I values valid when used
  > with the T' and I' give my the manuf.  Alternatively, I could
  > pick my own charged/discharged voltages (have to look these
  > up), and measure T, T', I, I' myself.

Yes, that's right.  I'm assuming that your voltage cutoff levels are the
same as the manufacturer's.  If they're not, you'll have to get your own
test data to estimate state of charge.

Although we're dancing around it, there's a fundamental problem here,
which is that Peukert's equation was never really created to measure
DOD, but to estimate battery capacity at various current rates.  When
it's used to estimate DOD, it says that discharging at high current
rates somehow draws more amperes out of the battery than if you
discharge at low rates, which is not really true.  If your current has
any major deviations from the average current (and in an EV application,
it will) then your SOC estimate may be significantly off.

What's more, the equation is an empirical relationship, and it will
never be 100% accurate.  The further your measured current is from the
range across which the empirical relationship was calculated, the more
inaccurate it will be.

You will need to do a test with the algorithm and a battery to see how
far off it is for a representative duty cycle, with some high-current
periods mixed with some low-current periods.  This will tell you how
accurate it is in your application.

- Haresh

I am planning on running accesories of the front motor shaft too and Roland
brings up some good
points. I had been planning on buying a DCDC but still no idea on what to get.
Why not just stay
with the alternator I already own instead of a DCDC I have to buy? Any downside
other than the
obvious? (no electricity unless motor is turning, etc.)

Any SIGNIFICANT efficiency difference between an alternator and a DCDC? Enough
to noticably impact
vehicle range. (deliberate grey area)
traction pack --> motor --> alternator --> accesory battery --> bells and
whistles
   vs.
traction pack --> dcdc --> accesory battery --> bells and whistles

Does anyone have a means to turn off an electrical item above a certain speed?
I'd like to use an
air conditioning type clutch to control the power steering pump. Only drive the
pump at slow
speeds.

Thanks

Dave Cover

--- Roland Wiench <ev_7@...> wrote:

> From: "Roland Wiench" <ev_7@...>
> To: <ev@...>
> Subject: Re: Air conditioner etc
> Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:27:27 -0600
>
> I am running not only the A/C, but the Power Steering, Vacuum pump and
Alternator off the main
> motor pilot shaft which shows 188 volts drop down from 192 volts at 4 amps to
run the A/C while
> driving the others under no load.
>
> Therefore it was much simpler for me to run the accessories of the pilot shaft
of the main
> motor, like a engine does.  It works great.  Used standard units that you can
get at any auto
> parts store.
>
> When I start up the EV from a standing stop and starting moving, these units
fire up, the
> alternator needs about 500 rpm to excite which is about 3 mph in 1st gear or
reverse.
>
> I used a idle stop on the accelerator linkage that I can activated, so I can
run these units for
> maintenance and testing.
>
> When I coast to a stop or down hill, all these accessories are still running,
while the amp
> meters are reading O amps!!  This is like a mechanical REGEN.
>
> In the winter time when the streets and hills are icy, I can turn on close to
3000 watts of
> heating systems, lights and all other power I can turn on.  This mechanical
REGEN slows me down
> going down a steep hill like a ICE compression of a engine in first gear.
>
> When I come to a stop at a intersection. I do not have to apply any brakes,
the Mech.REGEN slows
> me down to a stop while generating power to the accessories at 0 amps on
battery pack!
>
> Roland

Lee Hart wrote:
> Neon John wrote:
>
>>The common fallacy with all these otherwise good ideas is the
>>concept that anyone outside any of the... megacities is going
>>to drive to a station, unload all his goodies, lug 'em to a train,
>>have to bump elbows with... others, lug the stuff off at the
>>other end and then either walk or drive another vehicle the
>>rest of his way to his destination.  Just ain't gonna happen.
>
>
> Actually, it *does* happen every day. Certainly thousands, if not
> millions of commuters drive to a Park-n-Ride, leave their car and take
> the train, and upon arrival either walk or take another vehicle to their
> final destination.
>
I have to agree with John here. People have no choice but to drag
behind their luggage, so they do, but this is major reason such
a transportation isn't popular. People see convenience of personal
transportation as improvement of their life style, not the drawback.

   > I like this idea, too. I see Rick Woodbury's Tango as ideally suited to
> this kind of daily commuting. I also understand one of the few popular
> Amtrak services is the CarTrain, where people going on vacation can take
> their car with them.

Well, I had a priviledge to meet and talk to the inventor of the
downhill coaster http://www.downhillcoaster.com/?frs=30&lid=2
(as well as inspect the guts of the vehicle, climb on the rails
and the end station). They believe urban transportation may look
like this. Also, if one works in the city and lives outside city,
there is no luggage just to go to work and back. Vacation
travel is totally different thing, I thought we're discussing daily
commuting. What kind of luggage do you carry every day to work?
Perhaps just a badge...

> The hard part is to get the bureaucrats to stop looking backwards to the
> past for solutions, and actually think about the future.

Always the case. If they are comfortable living in present,
change is always perceived as to be painful and unjustified,
yet eventually happen. They will just delay it as much as they can.

--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different

Ta All,

Thanks for the input on this. The responses have been helpful and I'm psyched to
get going. I'm
going to try the smaller pencil type welder that connects to a compressor. I'm
also going to look
for one with adjustable heat (wattage.) Another good point is to make your own
welding rods from
the stock you are building the boxes from, perfect. Tim, you already had this
figured out.
Ingenuity makes up for many a slip of the bit.

The site www.urethanesupply.com is a great resource. They have a boatload of
info on plastics and
plastic repair.

Now if I can find a reasonable source of sheet HDPE in Connecticut, I'll be all
set. I can't
imagine it's cheap to ship a 4' X 8' sheet of anything.

Thanks

Dave Cover

I have to agree -- no point in taking a crotch rocket and making it into
a electric moped.

Chris Tromley wrote:

>Jeff Shanab wrote:
>
>
>
>>My bosses kid has a yamaha motorcycle in pieces in the back of the plant
>>and my boss was asking if I wanted it to turn it into an EV.  I have
>>never been much of a motorcycle person, but how much motor and batteries
>>and controller would make a reasonable project?  This is one of those
>>ninja style bikes, pretty big frame.
>>
>>
>
>Hi Jeff,
>
>A Yamaha that is "ninja style" is probably a 600 - 1200 cc sport bike.  A
>600 or 750 would be a good choice - big enough to fit stuff, not too heavy.
>If you can find out what year and model it is, your choice should be easier.
>
>My approach with this would be to *not* embarrass EVs everywhere by
>installing a foo-foo EV drivetrain.  It doesn't do the cause any good when
>you take a stock gas street bike that could easily out-accelerate all but a
>few of the NEDRA record holders and "improve" it to the point where it
>barely reaches 65 mph.  What most people don't get is that adequate power is
>a valuable safety feature.
>
>
>
>

Folks,

I'm going to start by forwarding the message that started it all.
Please read my comments below for the current status:

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Wing
Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 8:57 PM
To: ev@...
Subject: Electric '59 MGA Roadster for Sale

Hi,

Only Known Electric '59 MGA Roadster in US or UK is for sale by owner.

I have had my fun but it is time to sell it to someone younger. A buyer
from the greater San Francisco Bay area or Sacramento, Calif. would have
qualified service help available if needed.  Since 1972 it has been my
test
bed for various motor, controller, charger and battery configurations.

Present equipment is a Prestolite 4001 motor, Zapi H2 400 Amp controller
in
E-pump mode, (no contactor required), 20-12 VDC Optima deep-cycle
batteries
in buddy pairs at 120 VDC, E-Meter, beta-test Zivan 'Smoother' battery
equalizer (first one in USA on the road), onboard beta-test Russco 120
Vac
and Zivan NG3 240 Vac chargers. Front axle tow bar is included.

Won Classic Car Award at 1996 Stanford Electric Auto Assoc Rally.
Awarded
Most Technologically Innovative MG at the MG owner's Club (all ICEs
except
for two EVs) Jack London Square, Oakland CA 1998.

New fire engine red paint 4 years ago, all body panels removed nd
painted
separatelyl  It has not been driven in the rain.  It is a British car
and
the body panels rust out if the mud sticks in the cracks. Chrome, paint,
top and upholstery in great shape. Low rolling resistance tires.

Phone and come and drive it.  Will part it out after 4 months if it has
not
sold as is.

Sale price $8,750.  Extra charge of $800.each for Zivan Smoother or
either
second charger.

This is a sporty one-of-a-kind EV and great fun to drive.



Bob Wing
***********

As you probably know (or have guessed), I purchased "Fire Chief" from
Bob back in 1999, shortly after this email went out.  (Bob passed away a
few years later.)  I purchased both the Smoother (not working) and the
second charger, so paid a total of $10,350, or thereabouts.  Since then,
the batteries have been replaced with yellow-tops, Mark II Rudman Regs
have been added, and the motor was completely rewound after it
overheated.  The car has been to several shows around the Bay Area,
including a few more MG shows (it always wins Technologically Innovative
award), Hot August Niles in Fremont, and Newark Days in Newark.  It
always attracts attention.  It is a lot of fun to drive, and this is
perfect weather for it.

However, I currently don't drive it much.  I drive it to car shows and
occasionally around town.  Though the batteries don't have many cycles
on them, the pack is several years old and somewhat out of balance, so
it doesn't have the range to get me to work (19 miles of mixed freeway
and stop-and-go), and since I spend most of my off-time with my wife and
son, a two-seater is not so practical for us.  Therefore, I reluctantly
decided to sell the car to someone who has more time and use for it.

I would like to get close to my original $10k back for this car.  It
comes with lots of extras.  Besides the tow bar, there are several spare
tires/wheels (wire spoke wheels) old battery racks, extra seat cover
material, miscellaneous electronics.  It comes with a 110V Russco
charger and a 220V Zivan NG3.  I'll also throw in a Zivan K2 that I
purchased separately.  The Smoother is currently with Lee Hart for
analysis, but is not working.

This car has a lot of history.  It was converted in 1973 by Bob Wing.  I
have lots of documentation.  He kept meticulous records of the
conversion process and modifications he made.

I would like to sell this to someone (preferably in the Bay Area or
northern California) who will treat the car well, and perhaps continue
to show it.  This car is a legacy of an EV pioneer, and I want this
legacy to continue.

Photos and descriptions can be found at:
http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/bobwing.html
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/114.html
http://www.nbeaa.org/wing/bob_wing_-_ev_pioneer.htm

Hey guys.... a alternator is one of the most in efficeint devices in a ICE
Car.
The DC to DC will save 1000 of watt hours over a belt driven alternator.

I say don't do it, it's a serious waste of time and power. The only way out
is to only use the alternator when you are braking, and only spin the belts
When you are in regen brake mode.

DC/DC converters are %70 to 90 eff and alternator... Lundel rotor... normal
stuff is at best %50 eff and the belts eat up as much power as alternator
does just spinning.

The work arounds are a Permag alternator, and a magnetic clutch, the keeps
anything from turning untill you need it, and a direct drive...aka no belts,
just the clutch and shafts.

Rough guesses a belt driven alternator VS a DC to DC converter, will drop
your range by %20.
Big losses for simple reasons...

Madman


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Cover" <davecover@...>
To: "EVList" <ev@...>
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 9:50 AM
Subject: Re: Air conditioner etc


> I am planning on running accesories of the front motor shaft too and
Roland brings up some good
> points. I had been planning on buying a DCDC but still no idea on what to
get. Why not just stay
> with the alternator I already own instead of a DCDC I have to buy? Any
downside other than the
> obvious? (no electricity unless motor is turning, etc.)
>
> Any SIGNIFICANT efficiency difference between an alternator and a DCDC?
Enough to noticably impact
> vehicle range. (deliberate grey area)
> traction pack --> motor --> alternator --> accesory battery --> bells and
whistles
>   vs.
> traction pack --> dcdc --> accesory battery --> bells and whistles
>
> Does anyone have a means to turn off an electrical item above a certain
speed? I'd like to use an
> air conditioning type clutch to control the power steering pump. Only
drive the pump at slow
> speeds.
>
> Thanks
>
> Dave Cover
>
> --- Roland Wiench <ev_7@...> wrote:
>
> > From: "Roland Wiench" <ev_7@...>
> > To: <ev@...>
> > Subject: Re: Air conditioner etc
> > Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:27:27 -0600
> >
> > I am running not only the A/C, but the Power Steering, Vacuum pump and
Alternator off the main
> > motor pilot shaft which shows 188 volts drop down from 192 volts at 4
amps to run the A/C while
> > driving the others under no load.
> >
> > Therefore it was much simpler for me to run the accessories of the pilot
shaft of the main
> > motor, like a engine does.  It works great.  Used standard units that
you can get at any auto
> > parts store.
> >
> > When I start up the EV from a standing stop and starting moving, these
units fire up, the
> > alternator needs about 500 rpm to excite which is about 3 mph in 1st
gear or reverse.
> >
> > I used a idle stop on the accelerator linkage that I can activated, so I
can run these units for
> > maintenance and testing.
> >
> > When I coast to a stop or down hill, all these accessories are still
running, while the amp
> > meters are reading O amps!!  This is like a mechanical REGEN.
> >
> > In the winter time when the streets and hills are icy, I can turn on
close to 3000 watts of
> > heating systems, lights and all other power I can turn on.  This
mechanical REGEN slows me down
> > going down a steep hill like a ICE compression of a engine in first
gear.
> >
> > When I come to a stop at a intersection. I do not have to apply any
brakes, the Mech.REGEN slows
> > me down to a stop while generating power to the accessories at 0 amps on
battery pack!
> >
> > Roland
>

Jerry has suggested an MG or a Triumph front end.



Any suggestions for a 2F1R rear that would accommodate having an ICE drive
one side of the wheel and a motor the other?  (Wide space required).



A swing arm suspension or?



BoyntonStu

I used uChip's linear temp sensor (TC1047A if I recall) if you
don't want to linearize in software. In general, silicon PTC
sensors are my preferred choice.

Bob Siebert wrote:
> Hello:
>
> I'm planning a long series string of Li-Ion batteries and am  wondering
> what folks generally do for temperature monitoring and/or  protection.
> For the latter I had imagined a bi-metallic temperature  sensor on each
> battery (or, perhaps, on a small group if their  temperature commonality
> could be designed in). This would work best  during charging and could
> simple result in opening the charging  circuit. For temperature
> monitoring during discharge, I was thinking  about semiconductor sensors
> on some sort of bus.
>
> Comments are very welcome.
>
> /Bob (eesolar) Siebert

--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different

It is easy to cut out a alternator, when you don't want to used it.  On a two
wire alternator, just put a relay on the R-Terminal wire going to the alternator
which than be control by micro switches on the accelerator unit and/or
contactors or manual control switch.

When you open up this R-circuit, the alternator is no longer charging.

This R-circuit (which stands for Regulator) has about 10 ohms of resistance
between the ignition switch and the alternator terminal.  I have experiment by
switch in a variable resistance that I can control from the dash, that will
decrease or increase the charging load.

I industrial alternator like the one I have on my EV can be control by switching
resistance contacts by rotating a plug in switch on the outside of the
alternator. You can extended this circuit to a dash control and either used a
selector switch or a variable resistance.

I can control the alternator from NO CHARGING (at or below battery voltage or to
FULL CHARGING which would be equal or greater than a balance charge.

If you have one of those ONE WIRE alternators, than you would have to install a
switch out circuit to the 12 volt jumper wire that goes between the 12 volt
terminal and regulator inside the alternator.

I am using a high amp hour 12 volt battery.  At times, I could be drawing over
70 amps if I have every thing on that runs using 12 volts.

In this car I have:

4 large cooling fans that draw 5 amps each.
2 A/C fans that draw 4 amps each
Heating control system that is at 2 amps
Heating coolent pumps at 8 amps.
Over 100 indicator lights that is fuse for 10 amps
6 Vacuum motor control units that are about 2 amps each.
Head lites and parking lights that will draw over 20 amps if I have all four
lights on bright.
Zilla coolent pump at 1 amp
Zilla cooling fan at 4 amp
Motor cooling fan at 4 amp


Than the sound system which I did not look up yet.

So you see what I getting too.  I do not have a large enough car to get the
DC/DC inverter in to run all this stuff.

My alternator has to be jack up all the way to 15.5 volts that has a voltage
drop to 14.5 volts drawing over 100 amps from a 145 amp alternator.

I also do not have the room to change all these motors out to a battery pack
voltage.  Most of these 12 volt motor units are install in a very tight spaces. 
Sometimes only 1/32 inch clearance.

I would than have to install 12 volt control relays with high voltage contacts
in a enclosure that can be control by the 12 volt switch circuits in the car.
This enclosure will also not fit in the car.

What I need is a bigger car.

Roland


   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Rich Rudman<mailto:rmanzan@...>
   To: ev@...<mailto:ev@...>
   Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 11:33 AM
   Subject: Re: Air conditioner etc


   Hey guys.... a alternator is one of the most in efficeint devices in a ICE
   Car.
   The DC to DC will save 1000 of watt hours over a belt driven alternator.

   I say don't do it, it's a serious waste of time and power. The only way out
   is to only use the alternator when you are braking, and only spin the belts
   When you are in regen brake mode.

   DC/DC converters are %70 to 90 eff and alternator... Lundel rotor... normal
   stuff is at best %50 eff and the belts eat up as much power as alternator
   does just spinning.

   The work arounds are a Permag alternator, and a magnetic clutch, the keeps
   anything from turning untill you need it, and a direct drive...aka no belts,
   just the clutch and shafts.

   Rough guesses a belt driven alternator VS a DC to DC converter, will drop
   your range by %20.
   Big losses for simple reasons...

   Madman


   ----- Original Message -----
   From: "Dave Cover" <davecover@...<mailto:davecover@...>>
   To: "EVList" <ev@...<mailto:ev@...>>
   Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 9:50 AM
   Subject: Re: Air conditioner etc


   > I am planning on running accesories of the front motor shaft too and
   Roland brings up some good
   > points. I had been planning on buying a DCDC but still no idea on what to
   get. Why not just stay
   > with the alternator I already own instead of a DCDC I have to buy? Any
   downside other than the
   > obvious? (no electricity unless motor is turning, etc.)
   >
   > Any SIGNIFICANT efficiency difference between an alternator and a DCDC?
   Enough to noticably impact
   > vehicle range. (deliberate grey area)
   > traction pack --> motor --> alternator --> accesory battery --> bells and
   whistles
   >   vs.
   > traction pack --> dcdc --> accesory battery --> bells and whistles
   >
   > Does anyone have a means to turn off an electrical item above a certain
   speed? I'd like to use an
   > air conditioning type clutch to control the power steering pump. Only
   drive the pump at slow
   > speeds.
   >
   > Thanks
   >
   > Dave Cover
   >
   > --- Roland Wiench <ev_7@...<mailto:ev_7@...>> wrote:
   >
   > > From: "Roland Wiench" <ev_7@...<mailto:ev_7@...>>
   > > To: <ev@...<mailto:ev@...>>
   > > Subject: Re: Air conditioner etc
   > > Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:27:27 -0600
   > >
   > > I am running not only the A/C, but the Power Steering, Vacuum pump and
   Alternator off the main
   > > motor pilot shaft which shows 188 volts drop down from 192 volts at 4
   amps to run the A/C while
   > > driving the others under no load.
   > >
   > > Therefore it was much simpler for me to run the accessories of the pilot
   shaft of the main
   > > motor, like a engine does.  It works great.  Used standard units that
   you can get at any auto
   > > parts store.
   > >
   > > When I start up the EV from a standing stop and starting moving, these
   units fire up, the
   > > alternator needs about 500 rpm to excite which is about 3 mph in 1st
   gear or reverse.
   > >
   > > I used a idle stop on the accelerator linkage that I can activated, so I
   can run these units for
   > > maintenance and testing.
   > >
   > > When I coast to a stop or down hill, all these accessories are still
   running, while the amp
   > > meters are reading O amps!!  This is like a mechanical REGEN.
   > >
   > > In the winter time when the streets and hills are icy, I can turn on
   close to 3000 watts of
   > > heating systems, lights and all other power I can turn on.  This
   mechanical REGEN slows me down
   > > going down a steep hill like a ICE compression of a engine in first
   gear.
   > >
   > > When I come to a stop at a intersection. I do not have to apply any
   brakes, the Mech.REGEN slows
   > > me down to a stop while generating power to the accessories at 0 amps on
   battery pack!
   > >
   > > Roland
   >

EV Digest 4500

Topics covered in this issue include:

   1) Re: Air conditioner etc
	 by "Christopher Robison" <eeyore@...>
   2) Re: EV  eff       Re: Engine Generator Question
	 by jerry dycus <jerry5335@...>
   3) Re: Air conditioner etc
	 by Christopher Zach <czach@...>
   4) An idea to record information for sharing ideas on a sub 750 lb hybrid.
	 by "Stu or Jan" <stu@...>
   5) RE: Motor cycle for electric
	 by "damon henry" <damonhenry@...>
   6) Re: Motor cycle for electric
	 by Adam McLeod <adam@...>
   7) Re: Air conditioner etc
	 by "Christopher Robison" <eeyore@...>
   8) Re: Air conditioner etc
	 by "David Roden" <evpost@...>
   9) Re: 120v 6.7" ADC?
	 by "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
  10) Re: Motor cycle for electric
	 by "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
  11) Re: Motor cycle for electric
	 by "damon henry" <damonhenry@...>
  12) Re: State of Charge calculations - Eureka!!!
	 by "MT" <soltex@...>
  13) Re: Motorcycle for electric
	 by "Roy LeMeur" <roylemeur@...>
  14) RE: Hybrid Engine-LPG+Diesel
	 by "djsharpe" <djsharpe@...>
  15) RE: Hybrid Engine-LPG+Diesel
	 by "djsharpe" <djsharpe@...>
  16) Cool your motor with hydrogen gas
	 by "djsharpe" <djsharpe@...>
  17) Prius batteries
	 by "djsharpe" <djsharpe@...>
  18) Re: Prius batteries
	 by cowtown@...
  19) Re: EV  eff was: Engine Generator Question
	 by cowtown@...
  20) Re: Motor cycle for electric
	 by "Philippe Borges" <philippe.borges@...>
  21) MC EV drive Set ups / eff   Re: Motor cycle for electric
	 by jerry dycus <jerry5335@...>
  22) article: The RIDER: an electric commuter trike
	 by Paul Wujek <pdw@...>
  23) RE: CUSHMAN   EV's
	 by "Rick Barnes" <barnes.rick@...>
  24) RE: Please critique adapter
	 by "Chris Tromley" <chris_t@...>

Can you give more information about your motor -- who made it, pictures
maybe? Where can a person find a motor like this?   I'd like to have the
option of air conditioning in a high-voltage EV, and hooking it up
directly to the pack would be really nice.

I have one of those $10 260VDC motors from surplus center hoping that I
can feed it more volts than it's designed for if I gear it to spin fast at
low torque, but I have my doubts that it will handle 348V.

   --chris



Christopher Zach said:
> The AC in the Prizm pulls about 4amps at 300 volts running. Or about
> 1,200 watts. The payoff is a car that's cool in about a minute or so;
> it's very hyperactive.
>
> The motor is a 1hp, 300 volt brushless DC motor direct coupled to a
> sanden compressor on one end and direct to pack on the other.
>
> Chris
>
> Jeff Shanab wrote:
>
>> I live in fresno and today is 104 and they are predicting 110 later this
>> week, whew.
>> I want to ask how much energy do you guys find it takes to run an air
>> conditioner, Especially in climates like mine. I assume there are 3
>> motors involved, the one for the compressor, the one for the
>> condensor(radiator) and the one for the evaporator(blower)
>>
>> The heat never use to bother me but after the last round of
>> prescriptions from my doctor, it is becoming a real problem. I need to
>> size the motor for the 1987 300zx ans I am thinking of buying two of
>> everything and retrofitting the AC unit in the ICE car to, just so I can
>> leave the AC running while I pop into the store or while I am in the
>> dreaded gas station. I noticed today while at the bank that a lot of
>> people leave ther cars running(sacralidge) just to run the AC in this
>> town, I don't want to join that group!
>>
>> I think I could decrease my usage of gas if I ran the power steering and
>> AC off of batteries in the trunk and recharged them each night, (very
>> mild hybrid)
>>
>
>

Hi Peter and All,

--- Peter VanDerWal <evdl@...> wrote:

> >> FWIW, top speed on my pickup is slightly over 70
> >> mph.  Max power out of my
> >> batteries (120V worth of 8V GC) is just under 30
> kw.
> >>  All power figures
> >> measured with an E-meter.
> >
> >     I'd bet if you used a good aero camper type
> shell
> > like I've described before you could cut that 20%
> > easily, maybe more.
>
> Actually I tried a camper shell for a couple weeks a
> few years ago, power
> requirements went UP 10-15% so I removed it.
> Granted the shell was not all that aerodynamic, as
> Irecall iteven
> increased frontal area slightly.

    It has to be the right shape and why I said a good
aero camper shell.
    Also by completely replacing the bed saves weight
and can cover the rear wheel wells to decrease drag
even farther.
     The guy did get a 28% increase in mileage with a
rather crude shelel plus other aero mods on the side
and front.


>
>
> >> while driving.  Granted rapid charging them will
> >> create some heat, but in
> >
> >    If lead and charged at under 80% state of
> charge,
> > almost no heat is made from charging, discharging,
> > especially if you have a gen making most of the
> power
> > needed and recharging quickly. Eff approaches
> 98%!!!
>
> I'm going to dissagree here; less heat Yes, but

     You disagree !! I'm shocked ;-))
     Some tests have even seen a cooling of the batts
under fast charging under 80% charged.

> almost none?
> The heat build up from discharge will be slower,but
> accure over a longer

     With the gen running, the batts will need to be
used little and mostly surface charges which will heat
little coupled to the slight cooling from charging and
add an active battery cooling I'll have blowing air
throught the batt compartment between the batts,
heating of them is not going to be a problem.
     Now other batt chemistries?


> period of time.  Even if you keep the charging to
> below 80% SOC, the rapid
> charging requirement will cause battery heating.
>
> >>
> >> Still his other concerns are valid (engine and
> >> controller heating).
> >> This is one of the reasons that I'm a proponent
> for
> >> parallel hybrid schemes.
> >
> >     But you don't reconize as Lee does the part
> load
> > ineff of a parallel system.
>
> I recognize this, however it has nothing to do with
> my concept since the
> engine will only be used at or near it's maximum
> efficieny point.  That's
> why you have the Emotor, to suplement the ICE when
> the load goes up and
> (in regen mode) to addload to it when it drops.
>
> This is exactly what you are planning with the
> series hybrid, only the
> parallel hybrid doesn't loose efficiency due to
> double conversion looses,
> nore does your EV portion need to run full out
> continuously.  Finally,
> since you're not loosing power due to double
> conversion, youcan use a
> smaller ICE which means lower weight,
> lessfuelconsumption and therefor
> lower emissions.

    Not in real life unless you get a very intergated
set up costing big bucks. Even then it will be
maginally more eff with transmission losses, full time
weight added. Also much harder to design, impliment,
fit in a small space. And harder to remove when not
needed. And if permentantly installed then subject to
EPA laws which even if it's got great emissions
numbers, will take many $ to do legally. No thanks!! I
have enough headaches getting this going witout that.


>
> > There is a reason ICE cars
> > only get 7% of their fuel to the road where EV's
> get
>
> Where did you pull that number from?  It's two to
> three times that much in
> all of the figures I've seen.

     EPA amoung many other sources.
     Engine eff 30% generous x trans eff 90%x final
drive 95% x idling 0% eff- 20hp at all times internal
friction just to turn a engine over before any power
is needed, made.
     Most cars use more power in internal engine
friction than it takes to go 60mph!!! And that's where
part load ineff comes from.
     YMMV depending on engine size but acceleration
demands means it must be much larger than what it
needs for steady state cruising.

>
>
> >> I prefer having the ICE mounted in/on the vehicle
> >> though for convienence.
> >      And why I want to make my gens under 100lbs
> or
> > less than 2 batteries!!
>
> Well let's see...if the generator weighs 100 lbs,
> then the generator head
> probably weighs 30 lbs or so, that means the ICE
> weighs about 70.
> Loose the generator head and you can connect the ICE
> to the wheels through
> a transmission that problably weighs LESS than 30
> lbs. You can then also
> save weight by using lighter Emotors and
> controllers, since they won't
> have to run continuously at full power.  Plus you

    Not true as you need more power to push the motor
around when not needed as an EV and much more
complicated install. The clutch/drive alone will
probably weigh more than the powerhead.
    With my range, 100miles, the gen will not even be
in the  EV most of the time.
    And if you don't have the gen head, you can't
charge during idling, slow traffic, parked so must
have a larger ICE to make up for that or more
complication, cost, weight.

> don't have double
> conversion losses so you gain efficiency.

      The double conversion losses are 20% vs 5-10
transmission losses in the ICE so just not that much.
You save enough from the increased EV range when the
gen is not onboard.


> Finally, if you're really clever, you can design
> your transmission to
> allow the ICE to drive the Emotor without turning
> the wheels and now you
> have a generator to use while stationary.

    Costly, complicated. Maybe when I'm a millionaire
to afford the EPA regulation costs ;-))
     But as I've shown, Parallel is marginally more eff
but only when used. As it will rarely be used, it just
doesn't make sense to lug it around all the time.
    Feel free to lug one around yourself, but for me,
no thanks. It's plug in EVing 95%+ of the time for
me!! I'll take simplisity, flexability. And 100mpg is
good enough for me!!!
                 Jerry Dycus





__________________________________
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http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html

> Can you give more information about your motor -- who made it, pictures
> maybe? Where can a person find a motor like this?   I'd like to have the
> option of air conditioning in a high-voltage EV, and hooking it up
> directly to the pack would be really nice.

Unfortunately no. The motor is kind of buried in the car; pain to get
out. And the controller is a total black-box custom sort of job.

> I have one of those $10 260VDC motors from surplus center hoping that I
> can feed it more volts than it's designed for if I gear it to spin fast at
> low torque, but I have my doubts that it will handle 348V.

Is it a brushless DC (aka AC lite) or a standard series wound motor?

Chris

I am designing a lightweight Hybrid in my imagination.



My goal is a sub 750 lb 2F1R vehicle.



I am 'collecting' components in my mind.



The Yahoo EV files section might be a good place to  place the information
should anyone care to read or add to the list.



As per Jerry's advice I have in my mind a front end from either a MG or a
Triumph.  Model and years not known.



If anyone else is interested, we could open a File and call it "750 lb 3
wheeler".   People could post their suggestions of how to build it, and what
components to use, etc.



What do you think?





I am extremely interested in safety and the design of a cabin/roll cage
that would really offer protection at speeds up to 80 mph (relative speed)
crashes.  Is that a useful goal?





About 40 years ago, I saw an elderly couple in a '55 Chevy on the NJ
Turnpike.  They were both wearing helmets and I could see that they had a
roll bar.  I imagine that they also wore a 5 point harness.  At the time I
was young and foolish, and I thought that they were 'silly'.  Today I
realize that if everyone drove like that, fatalities would be greatly
reduced.



Does anyone have information on what it takes to create a safe 'womb' to
drive in?





BoyntonStu

I have a 6.7 inch ADC motor, Altrax 48V 400 amp controller, and a 44 BB600
Nicad cells (~53v nominal).  It's all tucked in a 1974 Suzuki GT250 frame.
With a 14 to 41 gear ratio I have a top speed of 60mph.  I recently
completed the ride from my house to John Wayland's which is 17 miles over
half of which was freeway.  My pack wasn't dead, but it was getting close.
If I were to change one thing in my setup I would go for a 72v controller.

damon

>From: Jeff Shanab <jshanab@...>
>Reply-To: ev@...
>To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
>Subject: Motor cycle for electric
>Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 18:36:01 -0700
>
>My bosses kid has a yamaha motorcycle in pieces in the back of the plant
>and my boss was asking if I wanted it to turn it into an EV.  I have never
>been much of a motorcycle person, but how much motor and batteries and
>controller would make a reasonable project?  This is one of those ninja
>style bikes, pretty big frame.
>

damon henry wrote:

> I have a 6.7 inch ADC motor, Altrax 48V 400 amp controller, and a 44
> BB600 Nicad cells (~53v nominal).  It's all tucked in a 1974 Suzuki
> GT250 frame.  With a 14 to 41 gear ratio I have a top speed of 60mph.
> I recently completed the ride from my house to John Wayland's which is
> 17 miles over half of which was freeway.  My pack wasn't dead, but it
> was getting close.  If I were to change one thing in my setup I would
> go for a 72v controller.
>
> damon
>
>
Do you have any pictures of this setup?  I am interested in building an
electric motorcycle for comuting, but I have yet to find a setup that I
like.  The use of a GT250 frame sounds interesting.

Thanks,

Adam.

Christopher Zach said:

>> I have one of those $10 260VDC motors from surplus center hoping that I
>> can feed it more volts than it's designed for if I gear it to spin fast
>> at
>> low torque, but I have my doubts that it will handle 348V.
>
> Is it a brushless DC (aka AC lite) or a standard series wound motor?

It's a typical permanent magnet DC treadmill motor, just wound for a
higher voltage than the usual 90-130VDC:

http://surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2005071222003654&item=10-2167&catname=elec\
tric

Whether it works for my application or not, this is a big chunk of motor
for the price.  I actually have two of them, and I'd considered wiring
them in series. I'd rather avoid the extra weight if I can though.

   --chris

On 12 Jul 2005 at 22:10, Christopher Zach wrote:

> The AC in the Prizm pulls about 4amps at 300 volts running. Or about
> 1,200 watts.

My Solectria Force has a bldc motor driving the original Geo Metro
compressor.  The ammeter says that the system uses about a kilowatt when
running (7 amps at 144 volts).


David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator

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> And for Lawrence and others we may have confused. Sorry about that.
> Yes, at higher voltage you can shift to keep the motor spinning faster
> which means more RPM, fewer amps and a cooler motor.
>
> hth,
> --
> -Otmar-

Yes.  I call that a down shift.  I'd use 2nd gear at 45mph crusing rather
than 3rd gear.  Seems to draw less current.  But without the higher
voltage....Sorry no speed.  But with the higher voltage overspeeding can
become a problem.  At what voltage will that happen?  Lets say you have
96,.120, 144, 156v etc.... At what level do you have to worry about
overspeeding the motor through high voltage.  LR......

There are a couple of great examples up on the EV photo album.  They are now
in the Newbie page but there are more examples under motorcycles.  6 yellow
tops and and A89 or ETEK make a great combo(72v).  You have to watch the
ETEK for overheating though.  LR..........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <jshanab@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2005 6:36 PM
Subject: Motor cycle for electric


> My bosses kid has a yamaha motorcycle in pieces in the back of the plant
> and my boss was asking if I wanted it to turn it into an EV.  I have never
> been much of a motorcycle person, but how much motor and batteries and
> controller would make a reasonable project?  This is one of those ninja
> style bikes, pretty big frame.
>

I'v been meaning to snap a few new photos since I switched packs.  I'll try
to get a few tomorrow and post them.

>From: Adam McLeod <adam@...>
>Reply-To: ev@...
>To: ev@...
>Subject: Re: Motor cycle for electric
>Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 23:01:26 -0400
>
>damon henry wrote:
>
>>I have a 6.7 inch ADC motor, Altrax 48V 400 amp controller, and a 44 BB600
>>Nicad cells (~53v nominal).  It's all tucked in a 1974 Suzuki GT250 frame.
>>  With a 14 to 41 gear ratio I have a top speed of 60mph.  I recently
>>completed the ride from my house to John Wayland's which is 17 miles over
>>half of which was freeway.  My pack wasn't dead, but it was getting close.
>>  If I were to change one thing in my setup I would go for a 72v
>>controller.
>>
>>damon
>>
>>
>Do you have any pictures of this setup?  I am interested in building an
>electric motorcycle for comuting, but I have yet to find a setup that I
>like.  The use of a GT250 frame sounds interesting.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Adam.
>

Roger, I understand how you are thinking about it.  Please see my reply
starting about 20 lines below.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <rstockton@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2005 2:43 PM
Subject: RE: State of Charge calculations - Eureka!!!


> MT [mailto:soltex@...] wrote:
>
> > (BS^n)A is still a little different (BS)A
>
> Absolutely.  The point some people seem to be missing is that you cannot
> arbitrarily assign the units where you happen to feel is convenient or
> where happens to make sense to you.
>
> > It is my pinion that to avoid confusion the equation should
> > be written:
> >
> > Cp = (10^1.25)A x 20 hr = 355.6 Ahr
> >
> > so that the Peukert exponent is attached where it needs to be.
>
> Unfortunately your opinion is wrong, and here is why:
>
> The value '10' in the above equation is 10A, and was obtained by taking
> the battery's capacity at the 20-hour rate (C/20) of 200Ah and dividing
> by the 20 hour dishcarge time to determine the average discharge
> current:  Ah / h = A, 200Ah/20h = 10A.


Sorry, although I can agree to disagree, the value of '10' is the 'I' which
means the magnitude of the current, a number not a lable or units. We just
so happen to know that the units is refered to in amps.

Think of it this way:

I=current                       we know we are refering to amps
E=electromotive force    we know we are refering to volts
R=Resistance                we know we are refering to ohms

I=current  = the amount of electrical charge crossing a cross-sectional area
per unit time.
So when we see I^n as in Cp = i^n * T, we are refering to the (amount of the
electrical charge)^n which in the end will be called amps.

Its like if someone said there are 50 students in school district A but 50^2
students in school district B, in actuality you are working on the numerical
value of students.  In this case we are working on the numerical value of
amps.  We are not squaring the 'students' lable, just the numerical value or
magnitude, or value.

The 10^1.25 result shows the different relationship between the average
discharge current value of 10 and 17.78 by applying the exponent determined
for that system and in essence letting you know that the capacity is not the
same as that derived through the innitial average calculation.

Numerically, 17.78 is 10^1.25 is I^n. But instead of saying 17.78A it is
saying 10^1.25A. If n=1.36 then instead of saying 22.9A it would say
10^1.36A, or I=10^1.36A=22.9A.

There is no arbitrary assignment of units as you suggest below, which
originated in a previous post discribing the equation.

We are working within the unit and not on the unit.

Applying units analysis:
Cp = (10^1.25)A x 20 hr = 355.6 Ahr
Cp= (coefficient)A x (coefficient)hr = (coefficient)Ahr
Cp= A x hr = Ahr   a.k.a. Ah in which capacities are stated.

MT



> When you substitute this value into Peukert's equation, both the
> magnitude and dimension (units) are substituted in the same place.
> Think of it this way: if we represent the current value by the variable
> 'i', then:
>
> Cp = i^n * T
>
> n=1.25, T=20hr, so: Cp = i^1.25 * 20hr
>
> Now, if we perform a units analysis on this equation, we run the
> equation just with units, and substitute the units associated with the
> variable 'i' in its place:
>
> Cp = amps^1.25 * hr
>
> Units both sides of the equation must be the same for it to be valid, so
> Cp has units of amps^1.25 * hr.
>
> If we want to solve the equation for a given value of i=10amps, we
> substitute 10 amps for 'i':
>
> Cp = (10amps)^1.25 * 20hr = 355.6 amps^1.25 * hr.
>
> We cannot substitute the magnitude in place of 'i' and arbitrarily plunk
> the dimension somewhere else.
>
> Finally, note that not producing a result with units of Ahr does not
> make this equation invalid or useless.  It just means that one must
> recognise that the result is not an Ah quantity and cannot be added or
> subtracted from Ah quantities.  A correct way to use this Peukert
> capacity is as described by Paul 'Neon' Gooch.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>

Some emotorcycle links-

EV Album Motorcycles
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/motorcycles.html

Reverend Gadget's Electric Motorcycle
http://reverendgadget.com/subpage1.html

Killa Cycle
World's Quickest Electric Motorcycle
9.45 seconds @ 152.07 mph in the 1/4 mile:
http://www.killacycle.com

Vectrix Electric Bike
http://www.vectrixusa.com

Electric Motorsport Motorcycles
http://www.electricmotorsport.com

Jackal Electric Bike
http://thunderstruck-ev.com/jackal_home.htm


>My bosses kid has a yamaha motorcycle in pieces in the back of the plant
>and my boss was asking if I wanted it to turn it into an EV. I have never
>been much of a motorcycle person, but how much motor and batteries and
>controller would make a reasonable project? This is one of those ninja
>style bikes, pretty big frame.
.




Roy LeMeur
cloudevtech@...
http://www.cloudelectric.com
http://www.dcelectricsupply.com

Cloud Electric Vehicles
19428 66th Ave So, Q-101
Kent, Washington  98032

phone:  425-251-6380
fax:  425-251-6381
Toll Free:  800-648-7716




My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html

Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html

EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm

........but LPG is cheap & distillate is dear (in Aus at least)
David

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...] On
Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
Sent: Wednesday, 13 July 2005 5:17 AM
To: ev@...
Subject: Re: Hybrid Engine-LPG+Diesel

> Is it possible to suck LPG or CNG etc into the intake of an idling CI
> engine so as to then have a combined fuel engine? If you think there
is
> a likelihood of success I would give it a go with one of my CI
vehicles
> as an experiment. I know that a straight SI LPG engine has much higher
> CR than an engine that can run on petrol or LPG.
> David Sharpe
>

Injecting propane into a Desiel engine is actually a fairly common
practice, there are several dozen kits available for doing this.
It improves your desiel mileage and torque... and can also destroy your
engine if not done correctly.

Unless you need the extra torque, it's probably not worth it however.
The
savings in desiel is pretty much offset by the cost the of propane.

It may be simply a matter of replacing the injector with a spark plug
and a suitable spark timing arrangement. An aircraft engine could just
about be setup to run at a fixed throttle. Gas engines use similar CRs
to CI engines.
David

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...] On
Behalf Of D B
Sent: Wednesday, 13 July 2005 6:02 AM
To: ev@...
Subject: Re: Hybrid Engine-LPG+Diesel

Benteaches@... wrote:

>In a message dated 7/10/2005 10:16:50 AM Pacific Standard Time,
>djsharpe@... writes:
>
><< Is it possible to suck LPG or CNG etc into the intake of an idling
CI
> engine so as to then have a combined fuel engine?  >>
>
>Idling? Probably not a good idea without major injection pump redesign.
>There are lots of propane/diesel kits on the market to boost power
>(definitely) and mileage (maybe...)
>CNG/diesel injection is common; 90%  cng for fuel, 10% diesel for
ignition.
>Very clean running.
>
>Ben
>
>
>
>
>
>
Aloha: I'm the electric aircraft lurker on this list, but have also
looked into making a Jet-A or diesel powered aircraft or electric-diesel

hybrid aircraft, using the powerhead from a Yanmar 36 HP, 3-cylinder
single overhead cam engine. Many companies, primarily Euro, are putting
out piston engines that run on Jet-A on the market simply because many
airports no longer have Avgas. Many require turbos for achieving
adequate take-off power, and are much heavier than the engines they are
designed to replace. This approach makes a great deal of sense here in
the Pacific, as very few airports south of Hawaii have Avgas at any
price.

  Others have "fumigated" their diesel engines lto make the  dual fuel,
particuarly engines which pump natural gas inside pipelines. NO2 can
also "fumigate" an engine for more power, and still rely upon
diesel-injection for ignition and timing. Some of the Nitrous Oxide
books talk about injecting into diesels, but not too much is covered. I
do know that they inject NO2 as a liquid and let its evaporation cool
the incoming charge. I see no reason why the same would not be true for
Propane, LPG or CNG. Aloha David

Hydrogen has much lower windage losses than air & maybe better heat
transfer ability so why not fill your motor with it and circulate the
gas around via a radiator for cooling. You would need to seal all
orifices. We had H2 in large electrical machines for this purpose I
recall from my old electricity industry days.
I know .....remember the Hindenburg!
   Just an idea for those chasing every Watt.
David

A friend has pointed out that the older Prius uses 288V size D 7Ahr. My
EV is 144V so how many battery packs are needed for approx 100Ahr-----7?
Now to find some totalled Prius.
Any objections listers?
David

<<<
A friend has pointed out that the older Prius uses 288V size D 7Ahr. My
EV is 144V so how many battery packs are needed for approx 100Ahr-----7?
Now to find some totalled Prius.
Any objections listers?
David
>>>

Isn't there a major issue with charging NiMH packs in parallel causing
imbalances?

> > >> FWIW, top speed on my pickup is slightly over 70
> > >> mph.  Max power out of my
> > >> batteries (120V worth of 8V GC) is just under 30
> > kw.
> > >>  All power figures
> > >> measured with an E-meter.
> > >
> > >     I'd bet if you used a good aero camper type
> > shell
> > > like I've described before you could cut that 20%
> > > easily, maybe more.
> >
> > Actually I tried a camper shell for a couple weeks a
> > few years ago, power
> > requirements went UP 10-15% so I removed it.
> > Granted the shell was not all that aerodynamic, as
> > Irecall iteven
> > increased frontal area slightly.
>
>    It has to be the right shape and why I said a good
> aero camper shell.
>    Also by completely replacing the bed saves weight
> and can cover the rear wheel wells to decrease drag
> even farther.
>     The guy did get a 28% increase in mileage with a
> rather crude shelel plus other aero mods on the side
> and front.
>
>
> >
> >
> > >> while driving.  Granted rapid charging them will
> > >> create some heat, but in
> > >
> > >    If lead and charged at under 80% state of
> > charge,
> > > almost no heat is made from charging, discharging,
> > > especially if you have a gen making most of the
> > power
> > > needed and recharging quickly. Eff approaches
> > 98%!!!
> >
> > I'm going to dissagree here; less heat Yes, but
>
>     You disagree !! I'm shocked ;-))
>     Some tests have even seen a cooling of the batts
> under fast charging under 80% charged.
>
> > almost none?
> > The heat build up from discharge will be slower,but
> > accure over a longer
>
>     With the gen running, the batts will need to be
> used little and mostly surface charges which will heat
> little coupled to the slight cooling from charging and
> add an active battery cooling I'll have blowing air
> throught the batt compartment between the batts,
> heating of them is not going to be a problem.
>     Now other batt chemistries?
>
>
> > period of time.  Even if you keep the charging to
> > below 80% SOC, the rapid
> > charging requirement will cause battery heating.
> >
> > >>
> > >> Still his other concerns are valid (engine and
> > >> controller heating).
> > >> This is one of the reasons that I'm a proponent
> > for
> > >> parallel hybrid schemes.
> > >
> > >     But you don't reconize as Lee does the part
> > load
> > > ineff of a parallel system.
> >
> > I recognize this, however it has nothing to do with
> > my concept since the
> > engine will only be used at or near it's maximum
> > efficieny point.  That's
> > why you have the Emotor, to suplement the ICE when
> > the load goes up and
> > (in regen mode) to addload to it when it drops.
> >
> > This is exactly what you are planning with the
> > series hybrid, only the
> > parallel hybrid doesn't loose efficiency due to
> > double conversion looses,
> > nore does your EV portion need to run full out
> > continuously.  Finally,
> > since you're not loosing power due to double
> > conversion, youcan use a
> > smaller ICE which means lower weight,
> > lessfuelconsumption and therefor
> > lower emissions.
>
>    Not in real life unless you get a very intergated
> set up costing big bucks. Even then it will be
> maginally more eff with transmission losses, full time
> weight added. Also much harder to design, impliment,
> fit in a small space. And harder to remove when not
> needed. And if permentantly installed then subject to
> EPA laws which even if it's got great emissions
> numbers, will take many $ to do legally. No thanks!! I
> have enough headaches getting this going witout that.
>
>
> >
> > > There is a reason ICE cars
> > > only get 7% of their fuel to the road where EV's
> > get
> >
> > Where did you pull that number from?  It's two to
> > three times that much in
> > all of the figures I've seen.
>
>     EPA amoung many other sources.
>     Engine eff 30% generous x trans eff 90%x final
> drive 95% x idling 0% eff- 20hp at all times internal
> friction just to turn a engine over before any power
> is needed, made.
>     Most cars use more power in internal engine
> friction than it takes to go 60mph!!! And that's where
> part load ineff comes from.
>     YMMV depending on engine size but acceleration
> demands means it must be much larger than what it
> needs for steady state cruising.
>
> >
> >
> > >> I prefer having the ICE mounted in/on the vehicle
> > >> though for convienence.
> > >      And why I want to make my gens under 100lbs
> > or
> > > less than 2 batteries!!
> >
> > Well let's see...if the generator weighs 100 lbs,
> > then the generator head
> > probably weighs 30 lbs or so, that means the ICE
> > weighs about 70.
> > Loose the generator head and you can connect the ICE
> > to the wheels through
> > a transmission that problably weighs LESS than 30
> > lbs. You can then also
> > save weight by using lighter Emotors and
> > controllers, since they won't
> > have to run continuously at full power.  Plus you
>
>    Not true as you need more power to push the motor
> around when not needed as an EV and much more
> complicated install. The clutch/drive alone will
> probably weigh more than the powerhead.
>    With my range, 100miles, the gen will not even be
> in the  EV most of the time.
>    And if you don't have the gen head, you can't
> charge during idling, slow traffic, parked so must
> have a larger ICE to make up for that or more
> complication, cost, weight.
>
> > don't have double
> > conversion losses so you gain efficiency.
>
>      The double conversion losses are 20% vs 5-10
> transmission losses in the ICE so just not that much.
> You save enough from the increased EV range when the
> gen is not onboard.
>
>
> > Finally, if you're really clever, you can design
> > your transmission to
> > allow the ICE to drive the Emotor without turning
> > the wheels and now you
> > have a generator to use while stationary.
>
>    Costly, complicated. Maybe when I'm a millionaire
> to afford the EPA regulation costs ;-))
>     But as I've shown, Parallel is marginally more eff
> but only when used. As it will rarely be used, it just
> doesn't make sense to lug it around all the time.
>    Feel free to lug one around yourself, but for me,
> no thanks. It's plug in EVing 95%+ of the time for
> me!! I'll take simplisity, flexability. And 100mpg is
> good enough for me!!!
>                 Jerry Dycus

All your numbers seem to be guesses - what resources did you use to come up with
the values behind what you think will happen? (a couple EVs with salvaged parts
count towards only 2 rather inexact data points)

the question is how much will you (boss?) spend on this ?

expensive ice killer
ADC 6,7
zilla 1k
120V 40Ah kokam cells (very high power lithium)

fun commuter
etek
72V450A Alltrax
72V 40Ah kokam

reasonnable project:
etek
72V300A Alltrax
72V 26Ah hawker (lead batteries)


Philippe

Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
  http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <jshanab@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 3:36 AM
Subject: Motor cycle for electric


> My bosses kid has a yamaha motorcycle in pieces in the back of the plant
> and my boss was asking if I wanted it to turn it into an EV.  I have
> never been much of a motorcycle person, but how much motor and batteries
> and controller would make a reasonable project?  This is one of those
> ninja style bikes, pretty big frame.
>

Hi Philippe and All,

--- Philippe Borges <philippe.borges@...>
wrote:

> the question is how much will you (boss?) spend on
> this ?
>
> expensive ice killer
> ADC 6,7
> zilla 1k
> 120V 40Ah kokam cells (very high power lithium)

    Needlessly expensive as a MC rear wheel could not
handle the torque.
    Better at much lower cost would be a 6.7" motor  of
which there are many kinds, power ratings, a 36vdc,
high amp version prefered, A 600-800 amp 72-96vdc
controller and a string or 2 of BB600 nicads. High
gear ratio with field weakening ups torque output
again if nessasary. Or a 450 amp controller with a
bypass contactor.
    Now add a real aero fairing covering 1/2 the bike
will double the range at speed and allow a higher top
speed so really the best power, range upgrade you can
make at the cost of some light material and clear
plastic. Keeps most of the rain/cold out too or
completely if you do a full aero cabin.


>
> fun commuter
> etek
> 72V450A Alltrax
> 72V 40Ah kokam

     You really need 2 Etek's if you want to do any
kind of power or speed over 50mph or good hill
climbing ability. Series/parallel them and you need
1/2 less controller for the same power. And you could
add a bypass contactor for better top end power.
     Also while we would love Kokam's, this size pack
would be $8-10K?
      The BB600's would be almost as good though weight
twice as much but 1/10 the cost if you can find some.
      Personally I'd use 4 Trojan 27tmh's 12v130 amphr
batts well sealed or 100/180amphr SAFT ni-cads 48vdc
pack with 2 Eteks S/P and a Sevcon 300 amp or other PM
regen  controller for eff, long  range and with a good
fairing, high speed while keeping range and a bypass
contactor for more power.
                 HTH's,
                  Jerry Dycus

>
> reasonnable project:
> etek
> 72V300A Alltrax
> 72V 26Ah hawker (lead batteries)
>
>
> Philippe
>
> Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du
> volant ?
> quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
>  http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jeff Shanab" <jshanab@...>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
> <ev@...>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 3:36 AM
> Subject: Motor cycle for electric
>
>
> > My bosses kid has a yamaha motorcycle in pieces in
> the back of the plant
> > and my boss was asking if I wanted it to turn it
> into an EV.  I have
> > never been much of a motorcycle person, but how
> much motor and batteries
> > and controller would make a reasonable project?
> This is one of those
> > ninja style bikes, pretty big frame.
> >
>
>




____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

A small 15 mph leaning trike:

     http://www.gizmag.com/go/4266/

--
Paul Wujek

Most of the Cushman's are not built for highway use. I made some
modifications to a battery operated Cushman Titan 4-wheeler and registered
it as a "Low Speed" vehicle in Oregon (25 MPH speed, can operate on roads
posted 35 MPH or less). I think it would be very difficult or impossible to
get a regular plate for an off-road vehicle like this. One major road block
is that is needs to be built to NHTSA standards and have a tag on the
vehicle which states this. The off-road Cushman's are built to Factory
Mutual or other standards.

The best bet may be a 3-wheeled Cushman, in many places 3-wheels can be
registered as a motorcycle with very few restrictions.

Rick Barnes
Aloha, OR

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...] On
Behalf Of jerry dycus
Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2005 5:50 AM
To: ev@...
Subject: Re: CUSHMAN EV's



         Hi Mark and All,

--- Mark Hanson <mhanson@...> wrote:

> Has anyone converted one of these? or have tried to
> put one on the street?  Top Speed?  He doesn't have
> a title so I'm not sure if Cushman had one
> initially.
>
>  http://www.southbostonsurplus.com/CUSHMAN.html
>

    So that why the earlier question.
    I'd worry about the title problem. Check with you
local titling office to see if it can be done and how.
If you can't get a title, don't buy it. They are of
little value without a title so if you can get one,
offer him less to make up for the trouble.
    One could get a mechcanic's lean title but a lot of
work and takes time. You'd ned to have it legally
leaned for work or storeage then buy it at auction
again to be legal. Your local laws may be different.
    But these were built as EV and maybe still from the
factory but their $14k several yrs ago when I last
checked, costs has kept them from selling!!
    And as they are not great handing, you need to be
careful but as an EV they handle much better.
    Top speed could be 40-50mph as an EV. One could
easily pop a large golf cart trasaxle in place of the
ICE one for a very easy conversion.
    They would make a cool EV. If I found one cheap,
I'd convert it!!
                 HTH's,
                    Jerry Dycus





>




____________________________________________________
Sell on Yahoo! Auctions - no fees. Bid on great items.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/

David Dymaxion wrote:

> --- Roland Wiench <ev_7@...> wrote:
> > The best way to find out how thick your adapter plate should be is,
> > slide the transmission pilot shaft into the motor pilot bearing.
> > Take measurements from the transmission bell housing to the rear
> > motor face. ...
>
> I had done it a harder way, this'll be a great check on my
> measurements.

Hi David,

I'm behind on reading the list (again), so apologies if this has been
addressed.  I don't think clearance between the input shaft and the depth of
the pilot bearing is a good indicator.  It will make sure nothing rubs, but
you also have to consider the relationship between the clutch actuation
hardware (mounted on the trans) and the pressure plate (on the flywheel).

There is relatively little motion in a clutch release system.  Small
deviations from the proper spacing might have a big influence on how the
clutch operates.  If not now, perhaps when it wears.  The best way to get
the proper setup is to have your adapter/motor/flywheel duplicate the
original engine.  All converters take note - get the distance from the
flywheel face to the surface that mates with the trans *before* you dispose
of your engine.  Make sure you have the same distance with your
adapter/motor/flywheel and you should be fine.

Chris

EV Digest 4499

Topics covered in this issue include:

   1) Re: 120v 6.7" ADC?
	 by "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
   2) Running higher voltage.  Confusion.
	 by "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
   3) 25 Saft 220 ah nicad cells on ebay
	 by mshipway@...
   4) test please ignore
	 by "ProEV" <Promo@...>
   5) Re: Running higher voltage.  Confusion.
	 by jerry dycus <jerry5335@...>
   6) Re: 120v 6.7" ADC?
	 by Dave Cover <davecover@...>
   7) Re: 120v 6.7" ADC?
	 by Otmar <otlists@...>
   8) Re: Hybrid Engine-LPG+Diesel
	 by "Peter VanDerWal" <evdl@...>
   9) Re: Plastic welder
	 by jdham137@...
  10) Re: 120v 6.7" ADC?
	 by jdham137@...
  11) RE: Plastic welder
	 by "Richard Rau" <pedalcraft@...>
  12) Re: Hybrid Engine-LPG+Diesel
	 by D B <airlaw@...>
  13) Need Charging Advice - K&W 20
	 by Joel Silverman <jm_silverman@...>
  14) Re: Plastic welder
	 by Ryan Stotts <stotts.ryan@...>
  15) RE: State of Charge calculations - Eureka!!!
	 by "Roger Stockton" <rstockton@...>
  16) RE: Plastic welder
	 by "Roger Stockton" <rstockton@...>
  17) Re: Need Charging Advice - K&W 20
	 by "Roy LeMeur" <roylemeur@...>
  18) Re: Check this out!
	 by Eric Poulsen <evlist@...>
  19) Re: Check this out!
	 by jerry dycus <jerry5335@...>
  20) Re: Electric kit cars
	 by Steven Lough <stevenslough@...>
  21) Re: Stupid questions
	 by "hi_torque_electric" <hi_torque_electric@...>
  22) Re: Need Charging Advice - K&W 20
	 by "Gabriel Alarcon" <cienaga@...>
  23) Air conditioner etc
	 by Jeff Shanab <jshanab@...>
  24) Motor cycle for electric
	 by Jeff Shanab <jshanab@...>
  25) Battery charging temps
	 by Christopher Zach <czach@...>
  26) Re: Air conditioner etc
	 by Christopher Zach <czach@...>
  27) Re: EV  eff       Re: Engine Generator Question
	 by jerry dycus <jerry5335@...>

Too bad about the rust John.  We have myraid old unrusted & inexpensive cars
in California.  The reason:  Supply & demand. & volume.  Since the cars
don't rust there are a lot of older cars running in California.  Rabbits
galore.  I bought a running Aspire for 650 dollars.  Dropped the whole front
end and put in my whole front end from the wrecked Aspire. (not that hard &
I think easier than dropping for the motor or tranny) I've already collected
275 bucks from selling the used parts.  I'm sure I could get a body for you
for less than 300 dollars.  Probably with nice paint and interior.
LR.........
----- Original Message -----
From: <jdham137@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 10:04 PM
Subject: 120v 6.7" ADC?


> Listers,
>      After not being able to pass the state inspection because of
> extensive rust, I finally broke down and pulled the EV components from my
> rabbit. It's a 6.7 inch with a curtis and 72 volts of batteries. The plate
> (actually sticker) on the side of the motor says it's a 120 volt motor.
> Can I actually put a 120 volt system in this? The largest rating I've seen
> for a 6.7 incher is 96 volts. It also has the extra shaft coming out the
> other end if that gives any more info about its capabilities. Either Bob
> Rice or Otmar said that they thought the motor would be able to handle
> 96v. Maybe it could do more? And I'll definitely cool it with a fan.
>
> John Shelton
>
> __________________________________________________________________
> Switch to Netscape Internet Service.
> As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at
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>
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>
> New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer
> Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups.
> Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp
>

"as with the higher rpm you can run in a higher gear lowering the amps"

This statement by both Otmar and Jerry has me confused.  I have always
noticed with all my EV's that running as fast as possible in any gear will
lower current.  How does shifting to a higher gear reduce current?  My EV's
always draw more current in higher gears especially when accelerating or
hill climbing.  What am I missing?  (Maybe true high voltage machines.  I've
never run more than 120v on any of my EV's)
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
bassoon@...
415-821-3519

FYI, I found these on Ebay, they look like fun, only 30 volts worth though:
"measurements are appx. 5 1/2 in.x 6 1/2 in. x 12 1/2 in. tall, including the
short posts - these batteries are showing a charge that they had when I got them
and by the paperwork, they are appx. 1.25 volt and 220 amp. each"

Starting bid is $299, so far no bids.
Auction Ends Jul-16-05 18:00:00 PDT

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=56998&item=7521215441&rd=\
1

test

Hi Lawrence and All,

--- Lawrence Rhodes <bassoon@...> wrote:

> "as with the higher rpm you can run in a higher gear
> lowering the amps"

     I should have been more clear. I meant a higher
numericly higher ratio, thus higher gearing.
     Not, say 2nd instead of 3rd but 3rd instead of
second as we usually count our transmission gears
backward with being the least gearing and last in the
shifting pattern.
      Basicly with a higher rpm, the higher ratio means
you need less torque from the motor thus less amps as
amps is basicly torque.
      Higher voltage just allows the motor to make the
same torque/amps at a higher rpm that when multiplied
by the gear ratio, gives more torque/amp at the wheel.
You don't gain anything in energy as you put in about
the same power, just a higher voltage at less amps but
motor runs much cooler at lower amps with higher
reserve power if needed.
      I hope this doesn't just confuse more.

>
> This statement by both Otmar and Jerry has me
> confused.  I have always
> noticed with all my EV's that running as fast as
> possible in any gear will
> lower current.  How does shifting to a higher gear
> reduce current?  My EV's

     No, increases it if you mean to a gear with less
ratio..


> always draw more current in higher gears especially
> when accelerating or
> hill climbing.  What am I missing?  (Maybe true high

    Nothing it seems you have it correct.
                 HTH's,
                    Jerry Dycus


> voltage machines.  I've
> never run more than 120v on any of my EV's)
> Lawrence Rhodes
> Bassoon/Contrabassoon
> Reedmaker
> Book 4/5 doubler
> Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
> bassoon@...
> 415-821-3519
>
>




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--- Otmar <otlists@...> wrote:
>
> If you're worried about it, get yourself a temperature gauge on the
> dash running off a thermocouple buried 1/2" deep in one of the
> positive brushes. Watch that it never exceeds 230 deg C. 180 to 200
> degrees is normal running and 250 is a absolute max temp for the ADC
> motors.

I like the idea! Could you attach the thermocouple to the trailing egde of the
brush holder so you
never have to worry about brush wear. Would it be close enough so you still had
a pretty good idea
of the temp in the brushes? If the thermocouple is on the backside, is it
vulnerable to damage
from arcing?

Dave Cover

>--- Otmar <otlists@...> wrote:
>>
>>  If you're worried about it, get yourself a temperature gauge on the
>>  dash running off a thermocouple buried 1/2" deep in one of the
>>  positive brushes. Watch that it never exceeds 230 deg C. 180 to 200
>>  degrees is normal running and 250 is a absolute max temp for the ADC
>>  motors.
>
>I like the idea! Could you attach the thermocouple to the trailing
>egde of the brush holder so you
>never have to worry about brush wear. Would it be close enough so
>you still had a pretty good idea
>of the temp in the brushes? If the thermocouple is on the backside,
>is it vulnerable to damage
>from arcing?
>
>Dave Cover

Hi Dave,
I don't think you will get a good brush temperature reading on the
brush holder. This because it would now be subject to air flow and
temperature of the outside air.

I was taught by the engineers at ADC to drill a half inch deep hole
in the positive brush and put the thermocouple in there. I always put
the thermocouple in a little heatshink first to isolate it and to
make it stick better. Amazingly the heatshrink held up.

I think that by only going in 1/2 inch, you don't need to worry about
it protruding through when the brush wears.

And for Lawrence and others we may have confused. Sorry about that.
Yes, at higher voltage you can shift to keep the motor spinning
faster which means more RPM, fewer amps and a cooler motor.

hth,
--
-Otmar-

http://www.CafeElectric.com/  Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914  My electric 914

> Is it possible to suck LPG or CNG etc into the intake of an idling CI
> engine so as to then have a combined fuel engine? If you think there is
> a likelihood of success I would give it a go with one of my CI vehicles
> as an experiment. I know that a straight SI LPG engine has much higher
> CR than an engine that can run on petrol or LPG.
> David Sharpe
>

Injecting propane into a Desiel engine is actually a fairly common
practice, there are several dozen kits available for doing this.
It improves your desiel mileage and torque... and can also destroy your
engine if not done correctly.

Unless you need the extra torque, it's probably not worth it however.  The
savings in desiel is pretty much offset by the cost the of propane.

Dave and all,
       I read an article in Home Machinist magazine year or so ago about welding
plastics. I bought the stuff they suggested but haven't yet had time to mess
with it. Give me a couple of days to find the magazine and I'll digitize the
article and send it to you. Also, does anyone know what cfm rating for a
compressor would be sufficient for this welder? I have a 4 cfm light duty
compressor but I'm not sure it will be enough. Ideas?

John

  Subject:

Re: Plastic welder
   Date:

7/11/2005 11:38:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time
   From:

Ralph Merwin <rmerwin@...>
   To:

ev@...


Dave Cover writes:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I'm planning on making my battery boxes with steel (bed)frames and then
> lining them with plastic boxes and lids. HDPE seems like the right
> material. Does anyone have a recommendation for a plastic welder? I've
> seen a variety but don't know what options I need and what don't matter.
> eBay has all kinds and prices.

I was once thinking of making my battery boxes out of HDPE, and bought one
of the Harbor Freight units.  It seems to work OK for small projects, but
I didn't practice enough to feel comfortable making some large like a box.



> Do the rods have to be of the same material as the box?

Yes.  I had to buy them from a local plastic supplier (Multicraft Plastics).
Tap Plastics didn't carry welding rods.



> Can I glue/bond/epoxy the boxes instead of welding?

Not using HDPE.  There is supposedly a glue that will work with HDPE,
but it's expensive and I'm told it doesn't really work that well.


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Otmar, Jerry, and Bob,
       That's a lot of good news. When I get a donor and the money for new part
I'm going to buy a 1000 amp zilla to put some serious amperage whatever voltage
I choose. Can't wait for that. Since I'm getting a new donor I'm going to do it
right. I want to try to find a cabriolet in good condition to convert. I saw one
a couple weeks ago on ebay that was the perfect candidate. A great body and top
with a blown engine but it was in California. My favorite car I ever had was an
early eighties RX-7 but if I converted one of those I would need a new tranny
plate. If I go with a rabbit, can I just drop  the motor into whatever new donor
I have? When I pulled it out of the old car I just unbolted it and pulled it.
Will there be any other adjustments needed? Oh hey, I just thought of this, a
rabbit pick-up would be nice to have ;-) A two-seater with utility. I just need
to wait a couple months to save up the money for the components and get rid of
my motorcycle and truck before I ge!
  t another car in the driveway. The wife will kill me if I bring another car
home anytime soon ;-) Thanks guys.

John Shelton

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John, The plastic welder needs very little CFM from your air compressor.  It
mainly just needs the 'pressure'.  Even small compressors should work fine
once the pressure is adjusted for your process.
Practice on some test pieces.  Roughen the mating surfaces/edges.
Good luck,  (sometimes I'd rather say "Good skill"!)
Richard

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...] On
Behalf Of jdham137@...
Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2005 12:10 PM
To: ev@...
Subject: Re: Plastic welder

Dave and all,
       I read an article in Home Machinist magazine year or so ago about
welding plastics. I bought the stuff they suggested but haven't yet had time
to mess with it. Give me a couple of days to find the magazine and I'll
digitize the article and send it to you. Also, does anyone know what cfm
rating for a compressor would be sufficient for this welder? I have a 4 cfm
light duty compressor but I'm not sure it will be enough. Ideas?

John

Benteaches@... wrote:

>In a message dated 7/10/2005 10:16:50 AM Pacific Standard Time,
>djsharpe@... writes:
>
><< Is it possible to suck LPG or CNG etc into the intake of an idling CI
> engine so as to then have a combined fuel engine?  >>
>
>Idling? Probably not a good idea without major injection pump redesign.
>There are lots of propane/diesel kits on the market to boost power
>(definitely) and mileage (maybe...)
>CNG/diesel injection is common; 90%  cng for fuel, 10% diesel for ignition.
>Very clean running.
>
>Ben
>
>
>
>
>
>
Aloha: I'm the electric aircraft lurker on this list, but have also
looked into making a Jet-A or diesel powered aircraft or electric-diesel
hybrid aircraft, using the powerhead from a Yanmar 36 HP, 3-cylinder
single overhead cam engine. Many companies, primarily Euro, are putting
out piston engines that run on Jet-A on the market simply because many
airports no longer have Avgas. Many require turbos for achieving
adequate take-off power, and are much heavier than the engines they are
designed to replace. This approach makes a great deal of sense here in
the Pacific, as very few airports south of Hawaii have Avgas at any price.

  Others have "fumigated" their diesel engines lto make the  dual fuel,
particuarly engines which pump natural gas inside pipelines. NO2 can
also "fumigate" an engine for more power, and still rely upon
diesel-injection for ignition and timing. Some of the Nitrous Oxide
books talk about injecting into diesels, but not too much is covered. I
do know that they inject NO2 as a liquid and let its evaporation cool
the incoming charge. I see no reason why the same would not be true for
Propane, LPG or CNG. Aloha David

Excuse the basic questions but I could use some help
in figuring out the charging on my Volts Rabbit.  It
has a 96V (6Vx16) US 125 Battery pack and a K&W 20
charger.  The car has an analog SOC gauge and that is
it.  Since this is a "dumb" charger, I really need
help in determining how to best charge my pack.

What steps should I take to make sure I am getting the
most from my batteries.
1)How do I determine how much was pulled from the pack
after driving (check the voltage)??

2) What are the steps in charging?  I know of bulk and
finish but not sure what it all means.

3) How do I figure out how to set up the charger.  I
see there is a Current setting and a Voltage setting.
How do they relate to each other?

I have a timer set up at home to turn the charger off.

I sure could use some help.  I know that these are the
most basic of EV questions but I really want to
understand the process involved in properly charging
flooded batteries.

Thanks,

Joel


__________________________________________________
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John wrote:

>  Also, does anyone know what cfm rating for a compressor would be sufficient
>for this welder? I have a 4 cfm light duty compressor but I'm not sure it will
be >enough. Ideas?

The manual for the HF soldering iron looking one states 15 PSI max and
to set the airflow to 3.5 to 4 psi.  No mentions of CFM requirements.

http://www.harborfreight.com/manuals/41000-41999/41592.pdf

MT [mailto:soltex@...] wrote:

> (BS^n)A is still a little different (BS)A

Absolutely.  The point some people seem to be missing is that you cannot
arbitrarily assign the units where you happen to feel is convenient or
where happens to make sense to you.

> It is my pinion that to avoid confusion the equation should
> be written:
>
> Cp = (10^1.25)A x 20 hr = 355.6 Ahr
>
> so that the Peukert exponent is attached where it needs to be.

Unfortunately your opinion is wrong, and here is why:

The value '10' in the above equation is 10A, and was obtained by taking
the battery's capacity at the 20-hour rate (C/20) of 200Ah and dividing
by the 20 hour dishcarge time to determine the average discharge
current:  Ah / h = A, 200Ah/20h = 10A.

When you substitute this value into Peukert's equation, both the
magnitude and dimension (units) are substituted in the same place.
Think of it this way: if we represent the current value by the variable
'i', then:

Cp = i^n * T

n=1.25, T=20hr, so: Cp = i^1.25 * 20hr

Now, if we perform a units analysis on this equation, we run the
equation just with units, and substitute the units associated with the
variable 'i' in its place:

Cp = amps^1.25 * hr

Units both sides of the equation must be the same for it to be valid, so
Cp has units of amps^1.25 * hr.

If we want to solve the equation for a given value of i=10amps, we
substitute 10 amps for 'i':

Cp = (10amps)^1.25 * 20hr = 355.6 amps^1.25 * hr.

We cannot substitute the magnitude in place of 'i' and arbitrarily plunk
the dimension somewhere else.

Finally, note that not producing a result with units of Ahr does not
make this equation invalid or useless.  It just means that one must
recognise that the result is not an Ah quantity and cannot be added or
subtracted from Ah quantities.  A correct way to use this Peukert
capacity is as described by Paul 'Neon' Gooch.

Cheers,

Roger.

Ryan Stotts [mailto:stotts.ryan@...] wrote:

> >  Also, does anyone know what cfm rating for a compressor would be
> > sufficient >for this welder? I have a 4 cfm light duty
> > compressor but I'm not sure it will be >enough. Ideas?
>
> The manual for the HF soldering iron looking one states 15
> PSI max and to set the airflow to 3.5 to 4 psi.  No mentions
> of CFM requirements.
>
> http://www.harborfreight.com/manuals/41000-41999/41592.pdf

The 15PSI max is the maximum pressure that the welder's regulator
adjusts to, it is not the maximum pressure that you can apply to the
input.  The compressor I used regulated to 125PSI, and this fed straight
into the 0-15PSI regulator of the welder.

I would take the 3.5-4PSI mention as a recommendation to start with and
adjust from there.  If 3.5-4PSI were really "the" operating point, I
suspect they would build the welder with a fixed 3.5-4PSI regulator
instead of a 0-15PSI adjustable one.  As I recall, I found something
like 8PSI more appropriate for my material.

The volume (CFM) requirement is probably mostly a matter of ensuring you
have enough airflow to keep the heating element from overheating and
burning out.  I'm pretty sure the compressor I used was 6-8CFM and it
was fine.  I don't know if 4CFM would be enough, and I don't recall
where I got the idea that 6CFM or more was desirable.

Cheers,

Roger.

Hi Joel and welcome to the EV list. I can provide a couple of links to more
info and I am sure the charging gurus will speak up and answer your specific
questions.

The maker of your charger is even on this list.

Here are a couple of good links concerning caring for your lead-acid
batteries-

http://www.uuhome.de/william.darden//carfaq.htm
http://geocities.com/brucedp/evbatt.html

HTH!

Roy


Joel Silverman wrote:
>Excuse the basic questions but I could use some help
>in figuring out the charging on my Volts Rabbit.  It
>has a 96V (6Vx16) US 125 Battery pack and a K&W 20
>charger.  The car has an analog SOC gauge and that is
>it.  Since this is a "dumb" charger, I really need
>help in determining how to best charge my pack.
>
>What steps should I take to make sure I am getting the
>most from my batteries.
>1)How do I determine how much was pulled from the pack
>after driving (check the voltage)??
>
>2) What are the steps in charging?  I know of bulk and
>finish but not sure what it all means.
>
>3) How do I figure out how to set up the charger.  I
>see there is a Current setting and a Voltage setting. How do they relate to
>each other?
>
>I have a timer set up at home to turn the charger off.
>
>I sure could use some help.  I know that these are the
>most basic of EV questions but I really want to
>understand the process involved in properly charging
>flooded batteries.
>
>Thanks,
.




Roy LeMeur
cloudevtech@...
http://www.cloudelectric.com
http://www.dcelectricsupply.com

Cloud Electric Vehicles
19428 66th Ave So, Q-101
Kent, Washington  98032

phone:  425-251-6380
fax:  425-251-6381
Toll Free:  800-648-7716




My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html

Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html

EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm

That guy is on the "feet_forwards" mailing list -- they're into
recumbent and enclosed motorcycles.  His little mechanical outrigger
thing is pretty cool.

Stu or Jan wrote:

>This is a neat idea.  Look at the movie.
>
>
>
>http://www.rosscodesigns.com/prototype.htm
>
>
>
>BoyntonStu
>
>
>
>

Hi Eric and All,

--- Eric Poulsen <evlist@...> wrote:

> That guy is on the "feet_forwards" mailing list --
> they're into
> recumbent and enclosed motorcycles.  His little

     I finally got to a high speed computer to watch
the movie and it's way cool!!
      A good design that shows the advantage of using
small, medium size wheels to make the overall design
short. I'd even shorten the upper rear more for less
side area.
      The 'outriggers' are interesting but I think
having then pivot from forward and trailing aft would
be better as they wouldn't be as likely to get bent or
trip over.
       Like a double center kick stand pushed down by
your foot thru a level inside. You only need it when
stopped so should do well.
       His did look cool flapping down gave me a smile.

        An EV like this would have a high top speed and
a very long range!!
                Thanks,
                    Jerry Dycus

> mechanical outrigger
> thing is pretty cool.
>
> Stu or Jan wrote:
>
> >This is a neat idea.  Look at the movie.
> >
> >
> >
> >http://www.rosscodesigns.com/prototype.htm
> >
> >
> >
> >BoyntonStu





____________________________________________________
Sell on Yahoo! Auctions – no fees. Bid on great items.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/

Thank You Sergie:

It is very exciting to find interest in EV's all over the world.
Especially in Eastern Europe, and Russia.

This spring while returning to USA from Spain, I met some young people
from Eastern Europe, and they were very interested in starting an
Electric Car Club in their country.  We sent back and forth several
e-mail messages.

I hope I can help you the same.

It will take  some time to get these old pictures and information
together.  I have forwarded your request for information to the
International EV Discussion List, which started in California many years
ago.  There are MANY people who read it, and send messages to it every
day from all over the world.  You should consider suscribing to it.  It
is free, of course.

There may be others who can send information to you, from the LIST for
your article.

We will write again soon.

Steven...
Seattle EV Association.

kitguide@... wrote:
> Dear Mr. Steven Lough ,
> Thank you for phone conversation.
> I'm Sergei Yakovlev from "Auto + Style" magazine and I want to contribute an
articla to magazine about American
> electric kit cars from 80-90's.At the given moment I'm working on the book
about American kit and specialty cars
> history from 70's to nowdays.I'm specialized on this them.
> Unfortunately I don't have illustrated and technical materials for "Kaylor"
,"Green Motor Works" ,"Replica Roadsters" ,
> "Vortex" and other specialty car builders.This Companies was closed.
> Would you send me old brochures ,photos and technical information of American
electric kit cars from 80-90's.Cover and
> illustrations of this brochures and photos I need for making and illustrations
to the article and in the book.
>
> My address:
> S.Yakovlev
> P.O.Box 17
> 115 404 Moscow
> Russia
>
> Tel: 7095/326-32-05
>
> Sincerely Yours ,
> Sergei Yakovlev
>

--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle,  WA  98115-7230
Day:  206 850-8535
Eve:  206 524-1351
e-mail: stevenslough@...
web:     http://www.seattleeva.org

--- In ev-list-archive@yahoogroups.com, ev@l... wrote:

Just how is it that EV motors - or any electric motors for that
matter – get serviced, rebuilt, replaced, etc? I mean, assuming one
does not do the work himself, which probably many on this list do. So
don't tell me what expert  Ev-ers do. What does the "generic person"
do when they have a bad electric
motor in an appliance - say an air conditioner compressor, a washer
or dryer motor, a ceiling fan motor, etc.

Unfortunately a lot of newer electric motors are not feasible to
always rebuild.  Some are even designed so as they cant even be
opened up, let alone repaired correctly.  Other motor types are being
rebuilt everyday by a vast number of repair shops.  Check your yellow
pages under "electric motor repair" and I bet you find several to
choose from.  If lets say you have an irrigation motor that quit
working and you're an average Joe who doesn't even want to know what
it even looks like inside you'd go to someone who did a lot of
irrigation motors.  If you are someone like those on the list you
would disassemble the thing and buy or service the parts as needed.

>In the ICE automotive world, the in between generic person who takes
a bad
part off his car will go to the nearest Autozone or whatever and drop
the bad
part on the counter, leave that as the "core," and pick up a
new/rebuilt one.
Does it function this way in the electric motor world?

Most larger shops stock motors which a customer can buy before their
core is received.  No matter how large an inventory there are always
motors that have to be rebuilt, which causes down time for the
customer but they end up with a cheaper bill over the cost of a new
unit.  If I had a stock motor and you brought one in it would cost X
amount.  If you wanted me to repair yours, as needed it would be
cheaper and if you brought me just the armature it would be cheaper
still.  Any work being done by the customer does not need to be done
by the tech. and should be reflected on the bill.

>Living in Alabama as a kid, I seem to remember going with my dad to
some electric motor shop to "get a motor rewound" or words to that
effect. I remember we left the motor, and a few days later we went
back to pick it up again. This shop was rather large, and downtown,
and I remember there being rows upon
rows of shelves behind the dude's counter, filled with electric
motors. Under this model, some dude actually takes your motor, takes
it apart, determines the problem, fixes it, and you get your motor
back. I think this dude would also sell you some rebuilt motor, if
you needed one. I presume that under this
model, the cost to fix an individual motor on an individual basis
would still be lower than just junking the motor and buying a new
one. But just thinking about it, this might only apply to larger more
expensive motors. At any rate, we'll call this "model 2."

Question 1: Which way does it work, for the most part? Model 1? Model
2? Some other model? If model 1, name the entity responsible, in the
end, for rebuilding the motor. You know, personally, I don't see
electric motor shops on every corner, if ever. Are there only a few
of them? Is it a good business?

As stated above it works both ways.  As far a business goes when I
ran Beech Electric Calif. We did mid-5 figure months and let me tell
you, that's a lot of motors per month to rebuild.  Some shops such as
myself don't advertise in the phone book.  In fact I don't even have
a sign up. So you may have more around you than you know, hehe.

Question 2: How do you foresee things working in the future, when most
everyone has an electric or a hybrid? Do you foresee lots of electric
traction motors needing lots of servicing, rebuilding, etc? If so,
who's going to do it? If the dealer would replace the motor, where
does the dealer send the bad one? I doubt the car manufacturers
themselves would run motor repair shops back at main headquarters.
Anyone have a clue as to how this will work?
Thanks.
Sam

Actually there have been several major companies that have gotten
into the repair business.  If there is a buck to be made be assured
that the corporate world will be there.  As for smaller shops like me
I expect average Joes bringing me motors and scratching their heads,
but where if he wanted he could come on in and maybe learn a tid-bit
or two.  That is unless I decide to give Ford a sales call, lol.

Hope this is more of what you were looking for
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric

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I live in fresno and today is 104 and they are predicting 110 later this
week, whew.
I want to ask how much energy do you guys find it takes to run an air
conditioner, Especially in climates like mine. I assume there are 3
motors involved, the one for the compressor, the one for the
condensor(radiator) and the one for the evaporator(blower)

  The heat never use to bother me but after the last round of
prescriptions from my doctor, it is becoming a real problem. I need to
size the motor for the 1987 300zx ans I am thinking of buying two of
everything and retrofitting the AC unit in the ICE car to, just so I can
leave the AC running while I pop into the store or while I am in the
dreaded gas station. I noticed today while at the bank that a lot of
people leave ther cars running(sacralidge) just to run the AC in this
town, I don't want to join that group!

I think I could decrease my usage of gas if I ran the power steering and
AC off of batteries in the trunk and recharged them each night, (very
mild hybrid)

My bosses kid has a yamaha motorcycle in pieces in the back of the plant
and my boss was asking if I wanted it to turn it into an EV.  I have
never been much of a motorcycle person, but how much motor and batteries
and controller would make a reasonable project?  This is one of those
ninja style bikes, pretty big frame.

So I did a pretty vigorous run with the Prizm tonight, brought it in,
and hooked it to the Magnecharger. Fault.

Odd. Checked the status codes: Turns out the pack was above 40 degrees
C. It's 85 degrees F and muggy tonight, but what should be done in this
sort of case?

Let the car cool down?
Raise the max temp in the MC to 45c
Check for something wrong since 40c is hot.

I measure temps on the interconnects closest to the positive pole on 9
batteries, so it might just be hot interconnects from pulling 150amp draws.

Thoughts?
Chris

The AC in the Prizm pulls about 4amps at 300 volts running. Or about
1,200 watts. The payoff is a car that's cool in about a minute or so;
it's very hyperactive.

The motor is a 1hp, 300 volt brushless DC motor direct coupled to a
sanden compressor on one end and direct to pack on the other.

Chris

Jeff Shanab wrote:

> I live in fresno and today is 104 and they are predicting 110 later this
> week, whew.
> I want to ask how much energy do you guys find it takes to run an air
> conditioner, Especially in climates like mine. I assume there are 3
> motors involved, the one for the compressor, the one for the
> condensor(radiator) and the one for the evaporator(blower)
>
> The heat never use to bother me but after the last round of
> prescriptions from my doctor, it is becoming a real problem. I need to
> size the motor for the 1987 300zx ans I am thinking of buying two of
> everything and retrofitting the AC unit in the ICE car to, just so I can
> leave the AC running while I pop into the store or while I am in the
> dreaded gas station. I noticed today while at the bank that a lot of
> people leave ther cars running(sacralidge) just to run the AC in this
> town, I don't want to join that group!
>
> I think I could decrease my usage of gas if I ran the power steering and
> AC off of batteries in the trunk and recharged them each night, (very
> mild hybrid)
>

Hi Peter and All,

--- Peter VanDerWal <evdl@...> wrote:

> >> FWIW, top speed on my pickup is slightly over 70
> >> mph.  Max power out of my
> >> batteries (120V worth of 8V GC) is just under 30
> kw.
> >>  All power figures
> >> measured with an E-meter.
> >
> >     I'd bet if you used a good aero camper type
> shell
> > like I've described before you could cut that 20%
> > easily, maybe more.
>
> Actually I tried a camper shell for a couple weeks a
> few years ago, power
> requirements went UP 10-15% so I removed it.
> Granted the shell was not all that aerodynamic, as
> Irecall iteven
> increased frontal area slightly.

    It has to be the right shape and why I said a good
aero camper shell.
    Also by completely replacing the bed saves weight
and can cover the rear wheel wells to decrease drag
even farther.
     The guy did get a 28% increase in mileage with a
rather crude shelel plus other aero mods on the side
and front.


>
>
> >> while driving.  Granted rapid charging them will
> >> create some heat, but in
> >
> >    If lead and charged at under 80% state of
> charge,
> > almost no heat is made from charging, discharging,
> > especially if you have a gen making most of the
> power
> > needed and recharging quickly. Eff approaches
> 98%!!!
>
> I'm going to dissagree here; less heat Yes, but

     You disagree !! I'm shocked ;-))
     Some tests have even seen a cooling of the batts
under fast charging under 80% charged.

> almost none?
> The heat build up from discharge will be slower,but
> accure over a longer

     With the gen running, the batts will need to be
used little and mostly surface charges which will heat
little coupled to the slight cooling from charging and
add an active battery cooling I'll have blowing air
throught the batt compartment between the batts,
heating of them is not going to be a problem.
     Now other batt chemistries?


> period of time.  Even if you keep the charging to
> below 80% SOC, the rapid
> charging requirement will cause battery heating.
>
> >>
> >> Still his other concerns are valid (engine and
> >> controller heating).
> >> This is one of the reasons that I'm a proponent
> for
> >> parallel hybrid schemes.
> >
> >     But you don't reconize as Lee does the part
> load
> > ineff of a parallel system.
>
> I recognize this, however it has nothing to do with
> my concept since the
> engine will only be used at or near it's maximum
> efficieny point.  That's
> why you have the Emotor, to suplement the ICE when
> the load goes up and
> (in regen mode) to addload to it when it drops.
>
> This is exactly what you are planning with the
> series hybrid, only the
> parallel hybrid doesn't loose efficiency due to
> double conversion looses,
> nore does your EV portion need to run full out
> continuously.  Finally,
> since you're not loosing power due to double
> conversion, youcan use a
> smaller ICE which means lower weight,
> lessfuelconsumption and therefor
> lower emissions.

    Not in real life unless you get a very intergated
set up costing big bucks. Even then it will be
maginally more eff with transmission losses, full time
weight added. Also much harder to design, impliment,
fit in a small space. And harder to remove when not
needed. And if permentantly installed then subject to
EPA laws which even if it's got great emissions
numbers, will take many $ to do legally. No thanks!! I
have enough headaches getting this going witout that.


>
> > There is a reason ICE cars
> > only get 7% of their fuel to the road where EV's
> get
>
> Where did you pull that number from?  It's two to
> three times that much in
> all of the figures I've seen.

     EPA amoung many other sources.
     Engine eff 30% generous x trans eff 90%x final
drive 95% x idling 0% eff- 20hp at all times internal
friction just to turn a engine over before any power
is needed, made.
     Most cars use more power in internal engine
friction than it takes to go 60mph!!! And that's where
part load ineff comes from.
     YMMV depending on engine size but acceleration
demands means it must be much larger than what it
needs for steady state cruising.

>
>
> >> I prefer having the ICE mounted in/on the vehicle
> >> though for convienence.
> >      And why I want to make my gens under 100lbs
> or
> > less than 2 batteries!!
>
> Well let's see...if the generator weighs 100 lbs,
> then the generator head
> probably weighs 30 lbs or so, that means the ICE
> weighs about 70.
> Loose the generator head and you can connect the ICE
> to the wheels through
> a transmission that problably weighs LESS than 30
> lbs. You can then also
> save weight by using lighter Emotors and
> controllers, since they won't
> have to run continuously at full power.  Plus you

    Not true as you need more power to push the motor
around when not needed as an EV and much more
complicated install. The clutch/drive alone will
probably weigh more than the powerhead.
    With my range, 100miles, the gen will not even be
in the  EV most of the time.
    And if you don't have the gen head, you can't
charge during idling, slow traffic, parked so must
have a larger ICE to make up for that or more
complication, cost, weight.

> don't have double
> conversion losses so you gain efficiency.

      The double conversion losses are 20% vs 5-10
transmission losses in the ICE so just not that much.
You save enough from the increased EV range when the
gen is not onboard.


> Finally, if you're really clever, you can design
> your transmission to
> allow the ICE to drive the Emotor without turning
> the wheels and now you
> have a generator to use while stationary.

    Costly, complicated. Maybe when I'm a millionaire
to afford the EPA regulation costs ;-))
     But as I've shown, Parallel is marginally more eff
but only when used. As it will rarely be used, it just
doesn't make sense to lug it around all the time.
    Feel free to lug one around yourself, but for me,
no thanks. It's plug in EVing 95%+ of the time for
me!! I'll take simplisity, flexability. And 100mpg is
good enough for me!!!
                 Jerry Dycus






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EV Digest 4498

Topics covered in this issue include:

   1) Re: Plastic welder
	 by Ralph Merwin <rmerwin@...>
   2) Re: Plasma Boy Racing website up and running
	 by Ralph Merwin <rmerwin@...>
   3) Re: Stupid questions
	 by Ryan Stotts <stotts.ryan@...>
   4) That good old EV grin
	 by cristin <cristin@...>
   5) Re: Current limit!!!!    Re: Advancing ETEK motors
	 by "Marc Michon" <electromc@...>
   6) 120v 6.7" ADC?
	 by jdham137@...
   7) Re: Plastic welder
	 by Neon John <jgd@...>
   8) Re: Transmission idea's
	 by Jeff Shanab <jshanab@...>
   9) Re: ICCU Ultracap Breakthrough. Will this help with SCR controller
efficiency?
	 by "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
  10) Re: 120v 6.7" ADC?
	 by Otmar <otlists@...>
  11) Re: State of Charge calculations - Eureka!!!
	 by "MT" <soltex@...>
  12) Re: EV digest 4497
	 by Mike Swift <tomswift@...>
  13) A 638  lb production 2 seater sports car :  Go Jerry
	 by "Stu or Jan" <stu@...>
  14) RE: A Trihawk Hybrid idea. RE:  Jerry
	 by "Stu or Jan" <stu@...>
  15) Re: A 638  lb production 2 seater sports car :  Go Jerry
	 by jerry dycus <jerry5335@...>
  16) Re: 120v 6.7" ADC?
	 by jerry dycus <jerry5335@...>
  17) Re: Transmission idea's
	 by jerry dycus <jerry5335@...>
  18) CUSHMAN
	 by "Mark Hanson" <mhanson@...>
  19) Motor repairs, Re: Stupid questions
	 by jerry dycus <jerry5335@...>
  20) RE: A Trihawk Hybrid idea. RE:  Jerry
	 by jerry dycus <jerry5335@...>
  21) Re: CUSHMAN   EV's
	 by jerry dycus <jerry5335@...>
  22) Re: 120v 6.7" ADC?
	 by "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
  23) Re: Stupid questions
	 by "Roland Wiench" <ev_7@...>
  24) Re: I can stop now
	 by "Mark Hanson" <mhanson@...>
  25) Cobasys & Panasonic :: Expanded NiMH License
	 by "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>

Dave Cover writes:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I'm planning on making my battery boxes with steel (bed)frames and then
> lining them with plastic boxes and lids. HDPE seems like the right
> material. Does anyone have a recommendation for a plastic welder? I've
> seen a variety but don't know what options I need and what don't matter.
> eBay has all kinds and prices.

I was once thinking of making my battery boxes out of HDPE, and bought one
of the Harbor Freight units.  It seems to work OK for small projects, but
I didn't practice enough to feel comfortable making some large like a box.


> Do the rods have to be of the same material as the box?

Yes.  I had to buy them from a local plastic supplier (Multicraft Plastics).
Tap Plastics didn't carry welding rods.


> Can I glue/bond/epoxy the boxes instead of welding?

Not using HDPE.  There is supposedly a glue that will work with HDPE,
but it's expensive and I'm told it doesn't really work that well.

I've attached some of the links I found when researching working with
plastic.

Ralph

=====

Bending:
	 - http://www.kamweld.com/html/bending_devices.html
	 - http://www.mini-lathe.com/Bending_fixture/bending_fixture.htm
	 - http://www.crclarke.co.uk/pdf/lineben.pdf

Bender plans:
	 - http://www.interq.or.jp/japan/se-inoue/e_acryl1.htm

Forming:
	 - http://www.cityplastics.com.au/forming.html

Welding:
	 -
http://www.malcom.com/downloads/techtips/tips.pdfhttp://www.malcom.com/downloads\
/techtips/tips.pdf

John,

I like your web pages.  Nice and clean, without the use of busy flashing,
dancing, distracting web widgets.  That said, your Plasma Boy picture needs
an animated GIF that has the lightning in the plasma ball moving around...

Also, you need some pictures and stories of stuff you've blown up!  You don't
to use the phrase "...we blow things up, so you don't have to" without some
proof! ;-)  That blob of fused batteries laying next to the driveway comes
to mind.

Ralph

Sam wrote:

> in an appliance - say an air conditioner compressor, a washer or dryer motor,

Replacement motors are available.

> a ceiling fan motor, etc.

Warranty or replace the fan.


> Question 2: How do you foresee things working in the future, when most
> everyone has an electric or a hybrid?  Do you foresee lots of electric
traction
> motors needing lots of servicing, rebuilding, etc?

Consider what's inside the motor.  DC: Replace the brushes when they
wear out.  The 2 bearings on the shaft should last a very, very long
time.  Not a big deal to replace anyways.  AC: no brushes, just 2
bearings..

Yeehah. Today I rode the EVT to work and back for the first time. About
15 miles there and 14 miles back (due to some one-way streets downtown
to avoid hills.)

Seemed to be a decent amount of charge left, considering the last 2
miles is about a 1% grade uphill. I will be checking my batteries with
a dvm before and after the next few rides - I am interested to see just
how much I am draining them. The EVT has only a few idiot lights
indicating voltage.

	 -Cristin

400 pound honda VFR
----- Original Message -----
From: Ken Trough <ken@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 6:32 AM
Subject: Re: Current limit!!!! Re: Advancing ETEK motors


> >  So my problem is I fried the altrax SPX 48v 400a controller runniing
> > ETEK in 5 miles hit 50 mph couple times cruised at 35-40 ambient
> > tempature 98 degrees do i go down to a 300 a controller?
>
> How heavy was the vehicle that experienced this failure?
>
> -Ken Trough
> Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
> http://visforvoltage.com
> AIM - ktrough
> FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
>

Listers,
       After not being able to pass the state inspection because of extensive
rust, I finally broke down and pulled the EV components from my rabbit. It's a
6.7 inch with a curtis and 72 volts of batteries. The plate (actually sticker)
on the side of the motor says it's a 120 volt motor. Can I actually put a 120
volt system in this? The largest rating I've seen for a 6.7 incher is 96 volts.
It also has the extra shaft coming out the other end if that gives any more info
about its capabilities. Either Bob Rice or Otmar said that they thought the
motor would be able to handle 96v. Maybe it could do more? And I'll definitely
cool it with a fan.

John Shelton

__________________________________________________________________
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Urethane Supply Company

http://www.urethanesupply.com/

Harbor freight has a nice hot air welder.  I do it both ways,
depending on the situation.



On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 10:34:01 -0700 (PDT), Dave Cover
<davecover@...> wrote:

>Hi all,
>
>I'm planning on making my battery boxes with steel (bed)frames and then lining
them with plastic
>boxes and lids. HDPE seems like the right material. Does anyone have a
recommendation for a
>plastic welder? I've seen a variety but don't know what options I need and what
don't matter. eBay
>has all kinds and prices.
>
>Wattage?
>
>Temp range?
>
>Airless? (I have a compressor.)
>
>Do the rods have to be of the same material as the box?
>
>Can I glue/bond/epoxy the boxes instead of welding?
>
>Fiberglass over thin plywood instead?
>
>Any input is appreciated.
>
>Thanks
>
>Dave Cover
>

---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN

The falcon shorty was around $1400.00 at some race shops, cheaper than
the other brands. It is a little harder to shift but has the lowest
rotating mass once in high gear. But the low range cannot be engauged
for long and the high range is 1:1 direct drive, only. Not sure if that
fits the EV bill. I was thinking of an always on clutch that is
disenguged when I press on the pedal instead of enguaged,. 2 or 3 speeds
and a park :-)

There is a tranny I found once for hot rods I wish I could find again,
About $600 it was a reproduction of a model A or T or something and used
bands and could be shifted under load, it was small and strong, I just
lost the link. :-(

I have a 120v 20 battery pack.  Weighs 1400 pounds.  Lee recommended 1000uf
and check again.  What is the problem of putting in a few thousand?  Maybe
overdoing it a bit.  Are they expensive?  Could I use one large one?  Would
I put it/them in series?  Seems it would have to be plenty tough to take 450
amps at 120v.  LR........



You can add the filter capacitors yourself. You need to connect them as
close to the controller's input as you can, with as short and heavy a
wire as possible.

We don't have enough data to calculate a value, but it's going to take
thousands of microfarads. If it were me, I'd look for some surplus
electrolytics intended for switching power supply filtering, and put in
1,000uf worth. Measure your ripple current again, and see how much it
dropped. Then you can guess how much more it will take.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Evan Tuer" <evan.tuer@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 3:14 PM
Subject: Re: ICCU Ultracap Breakthrough. Will this help with SCR controller
efficiency?


> On 7/11/05, Lawrence Rhodes <bassoon@...> wrote:
>> Lee Hart said I could improve my range by putting capacitors between my
>> controller and battery pack.  Would these supercaps be the best option
>> when
>> they are available or should I just use electrolytics and replace them
>> every
>> few years?  LR.......
>
> Supercaps are electrolytics, of a sort.
> If you were putting additional capacitors on the input of an SCR
> controller to smooth out the ripple current - less peukert's effect
> and less heating of the batteries and cables (thus extending range a
> bit), you'd want low ESR capacitors - as far as I know, supercaps are
> relatively high ESR - that means, they wouldn't soak up much of the
> ripple.
> And, bear in mind that this is a investing type announcement, so I
> don't imagine you'd get far if you wanted to buy the worlds latest and
> greatest supercap anyway :)
>
> I don't think replacing bulk capacitors is something that most people
> do every few years.  Maybe they're getting a bit shot after 10 years,
> in an overloaded Curtis.  But, if you work it out properly and fit
> sufficient volume and value in the first place, and keep them cool,
> there's no reason they shouldn't outlast the vehicle or the rest of
> the controller electronics.
>
> Regards
> Evan
>

At 1:04 AM -0400 7/12/05, jdham137@... wrote:

>  Can I actually put a 120 volt system in this? The largest rating
>I've seen for a 6.7 incher is 96 volts. It also has the extra shaft
>coming out the other end if that gives any more info about its
>capabilities. Either Bob Rice or Otmar said that they thought the
>motor would be able to handle 96v. Maybe it could do more? And I'll
>definitely cool it with a fan.

Hi John,
I'd be surprised if I suggested only 96V for the ADC 6.7. I'm pretty
sure it's fine to at least a 144V nominal pack voltage. I've been
wondering lately if it might pull the same 170V max of the 8" and 9"
motors. (that would give it a great advantage in drag racing)  In
general higher voltages are easier on a motor (until they start
arcing) since you can get the same power out of them but at lower
current.

If you're worried about it, get yourself a temperature gauge on the
dash running off a thermocouple buried 1/2" deep in one of the
positive brushes. Watch that it never exceeds 230 deg C. 180 to 200
degrees is normal running and 250 is a absolute max temp for the ADC
motors.
If it's getting too hot from arcing, then just upshift to reduce the
voltage on the motor.

Let us know how it works out!

hth,
--
-Otmar-

http://www.CafeElectric.com/  Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914  My electric 914

First I apologize about the dumb 'read receipt.' I thought I turned that
off.

Second (BS^n)A is still a little different (BS)A and here's why:

Looking at a chart say Amps on the vertical axis and volts or time on the
other.  First, the coefficient '10' in 10A is just a data point in amps,
along with the other axis' data point in the set.  Now, in combination with
all the other data point sets they create a line that describes the function
showing graphically what is going on in the system being analyzed.

If it were a steady discharge, without other influences, it would look like
a straight sloped line (linear).  But because the discharge rate varies due
to temp, chemical reactions, etc. it does not follow a straight line.  The
line it does follow is varied by, in this case, the value of the exponent
associated with the coefficient which happens to be related to that portion
of the data points on the vertical or 'amps' axis.

This then gives a different graphical representation (line or curve) that
accounts for the other variables like temperature, chemical reactions, etc.
on the amps vs. time or volts graph.

It is my pinion that to avoid confusion the equation should be written:

Cp = (10^1.25)A x 20 hr = 355.6 Ahr

so that the Peukert exponent is attached where it needs to be.

At this point I will pay my respects to Peukert for the work done to better
understand a battery's true potential.

MT

----- Original Message -----
From: "Myles Twete" <matwete@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 12:43 PM
Subject: RE: State of Charge calculations - Eureka!!!


> Why do I feel like this is an ongoing lecture in 1st year engineering?
> And just like school, some folks just won't get it, or will just continue
to
> disagree, so maybe we should drop the complaining about fractional
> dimensions in units---or do we really want to begin talking about fractals
> here?
>
> BS^n is still BS.
>
> -Myles Twete, Portland
>
>
>
>

Traction motors used in new design electric vehicles are one of the
simplest devices used in a vehicle.  Two bearings, one stator with
three coils, and a shaft position sensor.  There are few things to go
wrong.  To replace the bearings, rewind the stator, and replace the
positions sensors would cost maybe $400 dollars.  In fact removing
and replacing the motor would probably cost more than the rebuild.
For this reason maintenance cost for electric vehicles will be
dominated the batteries and generator.

Mike


On Jul 11, 2005, at 8:18 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:

>
> From: SBaker8688@...
> Date: July 11, 2005 8:18:06 PM PDT
> To: ev@...
> Subject: Stupid questions
>
>
> Just how is it that EV motors - or any electric motors for that
> matter - get
> serviced, rebuilt, replaced, etc?  I mean, assuming one does not do
> the work
> himself, which probably many on this list do.  So don't tell me
> what expert
> Ev-ers do.  What does the "generic person" do when they have a bad
> electric motor
> in an appliance - say an air conditioner compressor, a washer or
> dryer motor,
> a ceiling fan motor, etc.
>
> Well, it just occurred to me that the "generic person" merely
> throws the
> whole appliance away and buys another one.  So let's say you are in
> between the
> generic person who forever throws away anything broke, and some
> technical EV
> nerd who has the skills and tools and know-how to rebuild or fix an
> electric
> motor himself.  Say you're the guy who takes a bad electric motor
> out of an
> appliance, but at that point scratches his head (my Dad would fall
> into this
> category).  What does this guy do?
>
> In the ICE automotive world, the in between generic person who
> takes a bad
> part off his car will go to the nearest Autozone or whatever and
> drop the bad
> part on the counter, leave that as the "core," and pick up a new/
> rebuilt one.
> Does it function this way in the electric motor world (probably a
> stupid
> question)?  Under this "model," it is probably too expensive in
> terms of labor and
> whatever else for there to be some guy in the back of a shop
> somewhere who
> could actually fix a bad automotive part - *your* part.  Therefore
> there's some
> assembly line of anonymous bad automotive parts flowing out of
> these Autozone
> type places off to God-knows where to get rebuilt, and an assembly
> line of
> anonymous fixed/rebuilt auto parts flowing the other way to the
> "dealer."  You drop
> off your bad part, and you grab a good part.  We'll call this
> "model 1."  A
> good question would also be - what is the person or entity at the
> end of this
> flow of bad parts who ends up fixing/rebuilding all this stuff?
>
> Living in Alabama as a kid, I seem to remember going with my dad to
> some
> electric motor shop to "get a motor rewound" or words to that
> effect.  I remember
> we left the motor, and a few days later we went back to pick it up
> again.
> This shop was rather large, and downtown, and I remember there
> being rows upon
> rows of shelves behind the dude's counter, filled with electric
> motors.  Under
> this model, some dude actually takes your motor, takes it apart,
> determines the
> problem, fixes it, and you get your motor back.  I think this dude
> would also
> sell you some rebuilt motor, if you needed one.  I presume that
> under this
> model, the cost to fix an individual motor on an individual basis
> would still be
> lower than just junking the motor and buying a new one.  But just
> thinking
> about it, this might only apply to larger more expensive motors.
> At any rate,
> we'll call this "model 2."
>
> Question 1: Which way does it work, for the most part?  Model 1?
> Model 2?
> Some other model?  If model 1, name the entity responsible, in the
> end, for
> rebuilding the motor.  You know, personally, I don't see electric
> motor shops on
> every corner, if ever.  Are there only a few of them?  Is it a good
> business?
>
> Question 2: How do you foresee things working in the future, when most
> everyone has an electric or a hybrid?  Do you foresee lots of
> electric traction
> motors needing lots of servicing, rebuilding, etc?  If so, who's
> gonna do it?  If
> the dealer would replace the motor, where does the dealer send the
> bad one?  I
> doubt the car manufacturers themselves would run motor repair shops
> back at
> main headquarters.  Anyone have a clue as to how this will work?
>
> Thanks.
> Sam
>

http://www.malonecar.com/



The weight and the performance that it achieves is inspiring.



Anyone know:



What front end from a salvage yard would yield, light weight, disk brakes,
stock rims and tires, and with steering to best fit a homebrew 2F1R



Hybrid?   It would have to take the weight of the batteries.  Would power
steering be required because of the battery weight?



BoyntonStu

What is 'snow'?

BoyntonStu
Boynton Beach, Florida

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...] On
Behalf Of David Dymaxion
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 11:13 PM
To: ev@...
Subject: RE: A Trihawk Hybrid idea. RE: Jerry

If you actually get snow buildup on roads, the 4 wheel cars tend to
make 2 ruts. I've read that the single wheel of a 3 wheeler tends to
have trouble riding on the snow berm in the middle of the road and
tends to slide into one of the ruts. I can imagine if this is the
driven wheel the problem is even worse.

> --- Stu or Jan <stu@...> wrote:
> > What about drive traction on slippery roads using 1
> > light rear wheel vs a
> > FWD heavy?






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Hi Stu and All,

--- Stu or Jan <stu@...> wrote:

> http://www.malonecar.com/
>

    Cool trike. At least it has it's engine weight in
the front where it belongs.
    Reminds me of a modern version of the Morgan 3wh
sportscar, the by far most successful 3wheeler ever
build winning races over 80yrs!!! In production for 60
yrs!!


>
>
> The weight and the performance that it achieves is
> inspiring.

      Could be but would be even better as an EV other
than range though with li-ion that could easily be
over 200 miles!!
>
>
> What front end from a salvage yard would yield,
> light weight, disk brakes,
> stock rims and tires, and with steering to best fit
> a homebrew 2F1R
>

    MG's and Triumphs are the best that many of the
successful ones use. Use the whole frame and just cut
off the very rear to take the single rear wheel cuts
much fabricating work, time, cash and gives you brake
pedal system, steering, ect, already in place.
    There are lots in your area I remember.
    You could even keep the whole body and just replace
the driveline, rear axle with a single wheel and drive
for even less work.
    I alway try to find the easy way to do things. KIS

>
>
> Hybrid?   It would have to take the weight of the

     No problem as in these sizes, the batt weight
isn't that much. Neither is their cost and being cheap
is a main reason I like these.
    Also in Fla you don't need insurance as we have no
fault and MC don't even require that.


> batteries.  Would power
> steering be required because of the battery weight?

    Never!! I don't even like it in trucks. I like to
fel how a vehicle is driving so to control it better.
If a vehicle is traveling only 1/2 mph then any
vehicle is easy to steer without power steering. It's
all in technic, knowing how to drive.
    Please stop leaving all the space between lines as
it makes uit hard to read and then have to edit. 1 or
2 spaces at most between whole thoughts  would be
better.
                    HTH's,
                      Jerry Dycus

>
>
>
> BoyntonStu
>




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Hi John and All,
             I agree with Otmar as if it was designed
for 120vdc, then can easily do 50% more than that.
             A motor frame like the 6.7 can be wound
for most any voltage just by different wires/coil
sizes, turns and more commutator bars to match the
voltage rated which in your case is 120vdc.
             In fact you will need higher voltage just
to get good power, rpm from it and will run cooler at
120-132 or more as with the higher rpm you can run in
a higher gear lowering the amps, thus hgeat needed
until the heavy arcing point gets reached, somewhere
above 144vdc.
             Some put a camera on it then drive to find
at just what point that is but most likely be well
above 144vdc for a 120vdc motor.
             So don't worry, be happy and get some real
power from your motor!!
                   HTH's,
                       Jerry Dycus

--- Otmar <otlists@...> wrote:

> At 1:04 AM -0400 7/12/05, jdham137@...
> wrote:
>
> >  Can I actually put a 120 volt system in this? The
> largest rating
> >I've seen for a 6.7 incher is 96 volts. It also has
> the extra shaft
> >coming out the other end if that gives any more
> info about its
> >capabilities. Either Bob Rice or Otmar said that
> they thought the
> >motor would be able to handle 96v. Maybe it could
> do more? And I'll
> >definitely cool it with a fan.
>
> Hi John,
> I'd be surprised if I suggested only 96V for the ADC
> 6.7. I'm pretty
> sure it's fine to at least a 144V nominal pack
> voltage. I've been
> wondering lately if it might pull the same 170V max
> of the 8" and 9"
> motors. (that would give it a great advantage in
> drag racing)  In
> general higher voltages are easier on a motor (until
> they start
> arcing) since you can get the same power out of them
> but at lower
> current.
>
> If you're worried about it, get yourself a
> temperature gauge on the
> dash running off a thermocouple buried 1/2" deep in
> one of the
> positive brushes. Watch that it never exceeds 230
> deg C. 180 to 200
> degrees is normal running and 250 is a absolute max
> temp for the ADC
> motors.
> If it's getting too hot from arcing, then just
> upshift to reduce the
> voltage on the motor.
>
> Let us know how it works out!
>
> hth,
> --
> -Otmar-
>
> http://www.CafeElectric.com/  Home of the Zilla.
> http://www.evcl.com/914  My electric 914
>
>




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Hi Jeff and All,

--- Jeff Shanab <jshanab@...> wrote:

> The falcon shorty was around $1400.00 at some race
> shops, cheaper than
> the other brands. It is a little harder to shift but
> has the lowest
> rotating mass once in high gear. But the low range
> cannot be engauged
> for long and the high range is 1:1 direct drive,
> only. Not sure if that
> fits the EV bill. I was thinking of an always on
> clutch that is
> disenguged when I press on the pedal instead of
> enguaged,. 2 or 3 speeds
> and a park :-)
>
> There is a tranny I found once for hot rods I wish I
> could find again,
> About $600 it was a reproduction of a model A or T
> or something and used
> bands and could be shifted under load, it was small

    The T used a panetary gear with brake bands for
shifting  as do almost all automatics today.

> and strong, I just
> lost the link. :-(
>

     That's probably a Lenco that's a plantary 2 speed,
direct and lower gear, per section and you can use as
many sections as you want for as many gears you want.
Similar to most overdrive units or just 1 gearset in
an automatic trans.
     Many racers use the Powerglide 2 speed set up like
this too. B+M Racing Transmissions amoung others do
the Powerglide.
                   HTH's,
                      Jerry Dycus


>




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Has anyone converted one of these? or have tried to put one on the street?  Top
Speed?  He doesn't have a title so I'm not sure if Cushman had one initially.

  http://www.southbostonsurplus.com/CUSHMAN.html

Hi Sam and All,
          Much equipment is no longer designed to be
repaired so many small motors are designed for lowest
cost instead of repairability.
          But large motors like those in EV's are
diffinately worth repairing. Not only that, but with
very little study, can be done my most anyone for most
problems. Especially anyone who can convert a car to
or build an EV.
          In DC motors, 90% of the repairs are brush,
brush holder, commutator or bearing related, all very
easy to do replacements, repairs on.
          But even deeper repair like very bad coms,
field, armature windings you can do the dis/assembly
and just have those with the equipment/knowledge do
what you can't, saving much money or just buy new
parts and put them in yourself.
          I hope in the future to build a completely
modular motor and controller that almost anyone can
fix themselves just by replacing the bad part for much
lower costs.
           I can't wait for the hybrids to hit the junk
yards in quanity as I'm salivating getting ahold of
the BLDC motors in them!!
           Maybe building or converting ICE cars to
EV's might be a business for you where you are. Those
around town 3wheelers are prime candidates and simple,
cheap to do. Maybe some NGO's may sponsor some? We can
help you with any problems you may run into.
                  HTH's,
                    Jerry Dycus




--- SBaker8688@... wrote:

> Just how is it that EV motors - or any electric
> motors for that matter - get
> serviced, rebuilt, replaced, etc?  I mean, assuming
> one does not do the work
> himself, which probably many on this list do.  So
> don't tell me what expert
> Ev-ers do.  What does the "generic person" do when
> they have a bad electric motor
> in an appliance - say an air conditioner compressor,
> a washer or dryer motor,
> a ceiling fan motor, etc.




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Hi David and All,

--- David Dymaxion <david_dymaxion@...> wrote:

> If you actually get snow buildup on roads, the 4
> wheel cars tend to
> make 2 ruts. I've read that the single wheel of a 3
> wheeler tends to
> have trouble riding on the snow berm in the middle
> of the road and
> tends to slide into one of the ruts. I can imagine
> if this is the
> driven wheel the problem is even worse.

       A imagined that too but talking to a 2f1r owner
would drove in the winter up north said there wasn't a
problem and said he even had better drive traction
with the wheel there. Maybe some sparrow owners could
chime in here?
       Being in Fla, I don't get much experience at
it;-)
       Stu, ask on the Vortex3wheeler list too.
                  HTH's,
                    Jerry Dycus


>
> > --- Stu or Jan <stu@...> wrote:
> > > What about drive traction on slippery roads
> using 1
> > > light rear wheel vs a
> > > FWD heavy?
>




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Hi Mark and All,

--- Mark Hanson <mhanson@...> wrote:

> Has anyone converted one of these? or have tried to
> put one on the street?  Top Speed?  He doesn't have
> a title so I'm not sure if Cushman had one
> initially.
>
>  http://www.southbostonsurplus.com/CUSHMAN.html
>

    So that why the earlier question.
    I'd worry about the title problem. Check with you
local titling office to see if it can be done and how.
If you can't get a title, don't buy it. They are of
little value without a title so if you can get one,
offer him less to make up for the trouble.
    One could get a mechcanic's lean title but a lot of
work and takes time. You'd ned to have it legally
leaned for work or storeage then buy it at auction
again to be legal. Your local laws may be different.
    But these were built as EV and maybe still from the
factory but their $14k several yrs ago when I last
checked, costs has kept them from selling!!
    And as they are not great handing, you need to be
careful but as an EV they handle much better.
    Top speed could be 40-50mph as an EV. One could
easily pop a large golf cart trasaxle in place of the
ICE one for a very easy conversion.
    They would make a cool EV. If I found one cheap,
I'd convert it!!
                 HTH's,
                    Jerry Dycus





>




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Hi John;

    Ahhh! THERE you are! Glad to see yur note. Hit me back off List as ya did
before.I'm trying to find paperwork on a better Rabbit, abandoned at a local
gas station.Still hava 88 Jetta too, for the taking, body is sound but needs
cosmetics. Tony Acrizzi built a older Golf, similar car to a Jetta with a 6
inch motor, it worked well, I remember 4 of us going out to dinner in this
rig, big guyz like me and it did GREAT in Worcester MA Citi Traffic. BUT you
had to use all the gears ALL the time, to give the 6incher a bit of rev for
cooling. Us old farts are used to gearing through trannies to get the GO
anyhow.I think he ran 96 volts, though.!120 volts ,yeah, it would go like
hell! But I think ya would hafta be very careful NOT to lug it in hi
gears!!96 gave a nice goin' EV for his wife, a turnkey EV, that we all dream
about.

      Seeya

      Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: <jdham137@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2005 1:04 AM
Subject: 120v 6.7" ADC?


> Listers,
>       After not being able to pass the state inspection because of
extensive rust, I finally broke down and pulled the EV components from my
rabbit. It's a 6.7 inch with a curtis and 72 volts of batteries. The plate
(actually sticker) on the side of the motor says it's a 120 volt motor. Can
I actually put a 120 volt system in this? The largest rating I've seen for a
6.7 incher is 96 volts. It also has the extra shaft coming out the other end
if that gives any more info about its capabilities. Either Bob Rice or Otmar
said that they thought the motor would be able to handle 96v. Maybe it could
do more? And I'll definitely cool it with a fan.
>
> John Shelton
>

EV motors will repair at a dealer ship that has a repair shop for other cars.

The motors today can be repair by just unbolting the old part and installing the
new part.  The field windings, rotor or stator, brushes, brushes holders,
bearings are all bolt in units and conductors are bolted together on internal
terminal blocks (normally in very large motors).

In repairing a large alternator, all the components are replaceable by direct
bolt in which is done at the dealer repair shops.  The parts will just be
replace with a new or rebuilt ones.

Unlike the older type GE motor in my EV which is over 30 years old, all the
internal parts are not direct bolt in and all wire connections must be solder
together with high temperature silver solder.

DC coils are easy to rewind.  Just like winding thread on a spool.  The
technician, counts the number of windings that come of the spool and install the
same number back on using the same wire size.

Changing the commentator, rewinding, undercutting and conditioning a rotor is
normally done by a motor technician that has experience in DC motor repair.

The cost may be a factor.   If you take a old $2000.00 motor, and it cost
$2000.00 to repair it, it may be best to repair it if the motor is no longer
built which may be a classic that was built to very high standards at the time.

If a newer motor that cost $2000.00 is completely burn up, it will cost $2000.00
either by repairing it or replacing it.  So you as a user can repair this type
of motor by replacing it.

Roland
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: SBaker8688@...<mailto:SBaker8688@...>
   To: ev@...<mailto:ev@...>
   Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 9:18 PM
   Subject: Stupid questions


   Just how is it that EV motors - or any electric motors for that matter - get
   serviced, rebuilt, replaced, etc?  I mean, assuming one does not do the work
   himself, which probably many on this list do.  So don't tell me what expert
   Ev-ers do.  What does the "generic person" do when they have a bad electric
motor
   in an appliance - say an air conditioner compressor, a washer or dryer motor,
   a ceiling fan motor, etc.

   Well, it just occurred to me that the "generic person" merely throws the
   whole appliance away and buys another one.  So let's say you are in between
the
   generic person who forever throws away anything broke, and some technical EV
   nerd who has the skills and tools and know-how to rebuild or fix an electric
   motor himself.  Say you're the guy who takes a bad electric motor out of an
   appliance, but at that point scratches his head (my Dad would fall into this
   category).  What does this guy do?

   In the ICE automotive world, the in between generic person who takes a bad
   part off his car will go to the nearest Autozone or whatever and drop the bad
   part on the counter, leave that as the "core," and pick up a new/rebuilt one.
   Does it function this way in the electric motor world (probably a stupid
   question)?  Under this "model," it is probably too expensive in terms of labor
and
   whatever else for there to be some guy in the back of a shop somewhere who
   could actually fix a bad automotive part - *your* part.  Therefore there's
some
   assembly line of anonymous bad automotive parts flowing out of these Autozone
   type places off to God-knows where to get rebuilt, and an assembly line of
   anonymous fixed/rebuilt auto parts flowing the other way to the "dealer."  You
drop
   off your bad part, and you grab a good part.  We'll call this "model 1."  A
   good question would also be - what is the person or entity at the end of this
   flow of bad parts who ends up fixing/rebuilding all this stuff?

   Living in Alabama as a kid, I seem to remember going with my dad to some
   electric motor shop to "get a motor rewound" or words to that effect.  I
remember
   we left the motor, and a few days later we went back to pick it up again.
   This shop was rather large, and downtown, and I remember there being rows upon
   rows of shelves behind the dude's counter, filled with electric motors.  Under
   this model, some dude actually takes your motor, takes it apart, determines
the
   problem, fixes it, and you get your motor back.  I think this dude would also
   sell you some rebuilt motor, if you needed one.  I presume that under this
   model, the cost to fix an individual motor on an individual basis would still
be
   lower than just junking the motor and buying a new one.  But just thinking
   about it, this might only apply to larger more expensive motors.  At any rate,
   we'll call this "model 2."

   Question 1: Which way does it work, for the most part?  Model 1?  Model 2?
   Some other model?  If model 1, name the entity responsible, in the end, for
   rebuilding the motor.  You know, personally, I don't see electric motor shops
on
   every corner, if ever.  Are there only a few of them?  Is it a good business?

   Question 2: How do you foresee things working in the future, when most
   everyone has an electric or a hybrid?  Do you foresee lots of electric
traction
   motors needing lots of servicing, rebuilding, etc?  If so, who's gonna do it? 
If
   the dealer would replace the motor, where does the dealer send the bad one?  I
   doubt the car manufacturers themselves would run motor repair shops back at
   main headquarters.  Anyone have a clue as to how this will work?

   Thanks.
   Sam

I didn't actually measure it with a ruler but stopping on a 30% grade test
hill it's about 1/3rd the distance to stop as before, similar to a normal
vehicle when you jam on the brakes.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Cover" <davecover@...>
To: "EVList" <ev@...>
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 12:33 PM
Subject: Fwd: I can stop now


> --- Mark Hanson <mhanson@...> wrote:
>
> > It can screech to a stop *much* faster than before during a panic stop
and can lock up the
> > wheels now.  I did this a few years back (in the late 70's) on a willy's
jeep went to the 10"
> > brakes with similar results (from a larger Jeep Wagoneer).
> > Mark
>
> Did you measure the before and after stopping distances?
>
> Dave Cover
>

Found this on the ET list.  Does this mean more EV batteries?

Subject: Cobasys & Panasonic :: Expanded NiMH License

From:
http://www.cobasys.com/news/20050706.htm
via: Josh Landess JOSHL1@ MAIL.COM

Cobasys and Panasonic EV Energy Extend Cooperation and Agree to Expanded
License Terms

ORION, Mich., July 6, 2005 -- Cobasys announced today that they have granted
additional royalty-bearing license rights to Panasonic EV Energy (PEVE), a
joint venture between Matsushita Electric Industrial Co., Ltd. (MEI) and
Toyota Motor Corporation. The expanded rights will permit PEVE to solicit
and sell Nickel Metal Hydride (NiMH) battery products for certain North
American transportation applications. In return, Cobasys will receive
royalties on PEVE North American sales of NiMH battery products through
2014.

"We believe this agreement will complement our core business strategies,
provide additional revenue, and enhance our progress toward achieving full
manufacturing capacity at our Springboro, Ohio plant," said Thomas S.
Neslage, President and CEO of Cobasys.

Under the terms of the expanded agreement, Cobasys and PEVE will continue to
cross license each other for current and future patents through 2014. They
will also maintain their technical cooperation to advance the
state-of-the-art NiMH battery products and continue their joint development
for the next generation of high performance NiMH battery products for hybrid
electric vehicles (HEVs). The parties have also agreed to evaluate the
feasibility of assembling PEVE battery packs at the Cobasys Springboro,
Ohio, manufacturing facility.

Cobasys designs and manufactures advanced Nickel Metal Hydride (NiMH)
battery system solutions for transportation markets, including HEV, Electric
Vehicles (EV) and 42 volt applications, in addition to Stationary Back-Up
power supply systems for Uninterruptible Power Supply systems (UPS), Telecom
and Distributed Generation requirements.

Cobasys is a joint venture between Chevron Technology Ventures LLC, a
subsidiary of Chevron Corporation (NYSE: CVX) and Energy Conversion Devices,
Inc. (NASDAQ: ENER). For more information about Cobasys contact Ray Wagner,
Vice President of Marketing at 248-620-5765 or visit our website at
http://www.cobasys.com

Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
bassoon@...
415-821-3519

EV Digest 4497

Topics covered in this issue include:

   1) Plasma Boy Racing website up and running
	 by John Wayland <dat1200@...>
   2) Re: Current limit!!!! Re: Advancing ETEK motors
	 by reb <honourablepickle@...>
   3) RE: Plasma Boy Racing website up and running
	 by "Matthew D. Graham" <MGraham@...>
   4) Fwd: I can stop now
	 by Dave Cover <davecover@...>
   5) Please Help Newbie - ev bike transmission
	 by BR Deshpande <bdeshpan@...>
   6) RE: Please Help Newbie - ev bike transmission
	 by "Don Cameron" <ev@...>
   7) ICCU Ultracap Breakthrough.  Will this help with SCR controller efficiency?
	 by "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
   8) Dismal Range.  Was: Schmidt glider(lightweight gliders and improving EV
aero efficiency)
	 by "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
   9) Plastic welder
	 by Dave Cover <davecover@...>
  10) A ONE wheel front drive 2F1R auto.
	 by "Stu or Jan" <stu@...>
  11) Re: Transmission idea's
	 by Eric Poulsen <evlist@...>
  12) Re: Small AC motor question
	 by Ryan Stotts <stotts.ryan@...>
  13) Re: Photovoltaic Paint
	 by James Sullivan <hardwired@...>
  14) RE: Engine Generator Question
	 by "Grannes, Dean" <dean.grannes@...>
  15) Re: Plastic welder
	 by Ryan Stotts <stotts.ryan@...>
  16) Re: Hybrid Engine-LPG+Diesel
	 by Benteaches@...
  17) Re: Hybrid Engine-LPG+Diesel
	 by Evan Tuer <evan.tuer@...>
  18) Re: ICCU Ultracap Breakthrough. Will this help with SCR controller
efficiency?
	 by Evan Tuer <evan.tuer@...>
  19) Re: DC/DC
	 by Ryan Bohm <ryan@...>
  20) Sorry plain text prob.  Single front  wheel drive 2F1R car.
	 by "Stu or Jan" <stu@...>
  21) Re: Hybrid Engine-LPG+Diesel
	 by Ryan Stotts <stotts.ryan@...>
  22) Re: Contactor info plus blatant plug
	 by "Roy LeMeur" <roylemeur@...>
  23) Re: Dismal Range. Was: Schmidt glider(lightweight gliders and improving EV
aero efficiency)
	 by "John Westlund" <westlujr@...>
  24) RE: A Trihawk Hybrid idea. RE:  Jerry
	 by jerry dycus <jerry5335@...>
  25) RE: Plastic welder
	 by "Roger Stockton" <rstockton@...>
  26) Re: Plasma Boy Racing website up and running
	 by "BillDube@..." <billdube@...>
  27) Re: Plasma Boy Racing website up and running
	 by John Wayland <dat1200@...>
  28) Re: Small AC motor question
	 by "STEVE CLUNN" <steveclunn@...>
  29) RE: A Trihawk Hybrid idea. RE:  Jerry
	 by David Dymaxion <david_dymaxion@...>
  30) Stupid questions
	 by SBaker8688@...

Hell to All,

Just a quick note to let everyone know that the Plasma Boy racing website is
back up at
<plasmaboyracing.com>
I've had 'lots' of help from Mark Farver and Aleric (forgot his last name) of
'Austin EV'
who are the guys behind the page and who are painfully (for them) teaching me
stuff, plus
I've had help from Ryan Fulcher and crew member Tim Brehm. I also want to thank
Chip
Gribben for his artwork on the Plasma Boy logo.

Though maybe 5% completed at this point, you can now check out photos and a few
videos
using the 'Media' button. There are too many videos to list that are currently
being
digitized from video tape (thanks Tim), that will be up soon. Tim and I worked
on stuff
this weekend, as he's got new computer hardware and software that makes
converting the
videos easy, plus, he's got a high speed access I still don't have. Most of the
photos
you'll find, were uploaded the s-l-o-w- way via my lousy phone line
dail-up...arggh!
That's changing soon, though, as I've finally found a way to get high speed
cable here
through a combination cable phone line and scream'n fast cable modem line
setup...all for
within $5 a month of what we were paying for two regular phone lines, one of
which was
solely used for the computer...unlimited long distance sweetened the deal, too.
Soooo,
after the 23rd, I'll be in the fast lane and will get years of EV stuff up to
the web
page, but in the meantime, there's at least some stuff to look at now.

One of the videos is 'very large' and will be reworked to be three separate
videos, so for
now it's not for dial-up folks. When it 'is' broken down to smaller files, I
hope many
will enjoy the absolute vintage footage of the 1984 SEVA Long Distance EV Rally,
featuring
a much younger beardless and almost skinny John Wayland, a younger Steve Lough
(SEVA
president), and of course, Blue Meanie before it was even named as such, running
at an
awesome 48 volts! A few other video clips Tim shot to the site yesterday, only
take about
4-5 minutes to load in with dial-up. One, is of Bob Rice's great job of
capturing a
churning, tire shredding burnoff at last year's Woodburn drags. With Tim's new
equipment,
he and I can finally finish up the May 14th '04  video of the Mustang vs White
Zombie
12.99 run, including the interview with the stunned 'stang driver and a few
racing fans
who were there.

Please be patient, as I'm pretty bad with the whole web page stuff right now,
but I
promise I'll get better. Some of the opening page 'buttons' don't lead to much
right now,
but that will change. The button 'Wayland's Words' for example,  is one that for
now is
just has a running blog of sorts, but I have plans that will make it one of the
best
sections when it's done. The Media section is probably the best area for now,
but don't
forget to check out the Sponsors area, too, also an area that will be improved
on as I get
better at this.

Enjoy.

See Ya....John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland

so why would the controller fail ?
(i have an etek which i was about to buy a alltrax
for)
reb


--- Evan Tuer <evan.tuer@...> wrote:

> Oops, I thought you were asking about Jerry's ETEK
> failure, not Ken's
> controller failure, my mistake (red face)!
>
>
> On 7/11/05, Evan Tuer <evan.tuer@...> wrote:
> > On 7/11/05, Ken Trough <ken@...>
> wrote:
> > > >  So my problem is I fried the altrax SPX 48v
> 400a controller runniing
> > > > ETEK in 5 miles hit 50 mph couple times
> cruised at 35-40 ambient
> > > > tempature 98 degrees do i go down to a 300 a
> controller?
> > >
> > > How heavy was the vehicle that experienced this
> failure?
> >
> > Jerry gave a description in another thread:
> > [..]
> >      The situation was starting up a slight
> incline
> > driveway with a 4.3-1 drive ratio, 12" tires, 22"
> dia
> > driving a 1,000 lb EV.
> >     The controller was a contator and a GC
> starting
> > resistor in series with 36vdc 3/4 charged T105
> batt
> > pack with 4 and 6gge wires so I doubt current was
> over
> > 350 amps though could be wrong.
> > [..]
> >
> > Personally I guess that the current was
> considerably more than this,
> > given that it looks like the commutator segments
> melted like a fuse
> > almost immediately.  More like 1000A, which is
> certainly possible with
> > a contactor controller, and a rather heavy vehicle
> with a single ratio
> > transmission.  Jerry does mention a resistor
> (unknown value), but I
> > think that the current must have been pretty high
> for this to happen -
> > just my opinion based on playing with Lynch
> motors.
> >
>
>




___________________________________________________________
How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday
snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com

Wow! Great job from the Austin EV crew for the beginnings of a clean,
informative site! And Chip, you really outdid yourself with that image of
young Plasma Boy. Perfect!

For those of you who haven't checked it out yet, the picture gallery in the
media center shows a lot of great step-by-step processes, like the detailed
construction of a battery box, the Siamese 8, and the 13" motor for Purple
Phase.

John, we're looking forward to more pictures and videos!

Matt Graham

-----Original Message-----
From: John Wayland [mailto:dat1200@...]
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 11:33 AM
To: ev@...
Subject: Plasma Boy Racing website up and running


Hell to All,

Just a quick note to let everyone know that the Plasma Boy racing website is
back up at
http://plasmaboyracing.com

<snip>

See Ya....John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland

--- Mark Hanson <mhanson@...> wrote:

> It can screech to a stop *much* faster than before during a panic stop and can
lock up the
> wheels now.  I did this a few years back (in the late 70's) on a willy's jeep
went to the 10"
> brakes with similar results (from a larger Jeep Wagoneer).
> Mark

Did you measure the before and after stopping distances?

Dave Cover

Hi All,

I posted this query sometime back but dont know if i got any
responses. Hence the repost.

I have some questions about the choice of rear sprocket for my dirt
bike project. The sprocket will be chain driven by a 36 V etek motor.

Doing some quick and dirty calculations, i came to the conclusion that
at the top rpm of the motor 3600, if i want reasonable top wheel
speeds of say 25-30 mph i need to use a teeth ratio of 1:12.

I have been unsuccesful in finding sprockets. The highest i have found
so far is 12:72 (front:rear). I have 18" wheels (24" outer dia of the tires).

The other issue is regarding freewheeling. I am not sure if my Curtis
1201 supports this. It looks like I may have to do it mechanically.
Are there freewheeling sprockets available for a this kind of bike?

I would like some ideas about how to achieve a top speed of 30mph (a
jackshaft for an intermediate step down?) using my current setup and
secondly on what would be a good way to do the freewheeling. Thanks in
advance

Regards,
B.R. Deshpande.

PS: I dont know how to reply to messages in the list. Would appreciate
email responses. Thx.

--
"The resistance to a new idea increases as the square of its importance."
-Bertrand Russell.

For an outside diameter wheel of 24" to get a top speed of  28mph at
3600rpm, you will need an overall ratio of 9:1

A 12:1 will get you approx 22mph at 3600rpm.

There are a number of gear speed calculators on the net.  One is
http://www.kabamus.com/garage/gears.html I suggest you make absolutely sure
of your speed and torque needs before purchasing your gears.


Also, will the ETek, controller and battery combination have enough power to
accelerate you and your bike to the speed desired?  How about up a hill?



Please post your reply messages to the list so others can learn from your
experiences.

Don




Victoria, BC, Canada

See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...] On
Behalf Of BR Deshpande
Sent: July 11, 2005 9:39 AM
To: ev@...
Subject: Please Help Newbie - ev bike transmission

Hi All,

I posted this query sometime back but dont know if i got any responses.
Hence the repost.

I have some questions about the choice of rear sprocket for my dirt bike
project. The sprocket will be chain driven by a 36 V etek motor.

Doing some quick and dirty calculations, i came to the conclusion that at
the top rpm of the motor 3600, if i want reasonable top wheel speeds of say
25-30 mph i need to use a teeth ratio of 1:12.

I have been unsuccesful in finding sprockets. The highest i have found so
far is 12:72 (front:rear). I have 18" wheels (24" outer dia of the tires).

The other issue is regarding freewheeling. I am not sure if my Curtis
1201 supports this. It looks like I may have to do it mechanically.
Are there freewheeling sprockets available for a this kind of bike?

I would like some ideas about how to achieve a top speed of 30mph (a
jackshaft for an intermediate step down?) using my current setup and
secondly on what would be a good way to do the freewheeling. Thanks in
advance

Regards,
B.R. Deshpande.

PS: I dont know how to reply to messages in the list. Would appreciate email
responses. Thx.

--
"The resistance to a new idea increases as the square of its importance."
-Bertrand Russell.

Lee Hart said I could improve my range by putting capacitors between my
controller and battery pack.  Would these supercaps be the best option when
they are available or should I just use electrolytics and replace them every
few years?  LR.......
Message: 2
    Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 10:45:39 -0400
    From: RemyC <electrifyingtimes@...>
Subject: ICCU Ultracap Breakthrough - Netherlands

Lee Dekker
heprv@...

World's most advanced ultracapacitor

ICCU's ultracapacitor has achieved an unheard of price breakthrough per
kilowatt hour of storage capacity and can operate over a minimum thirty-year
lifetime with zero maintenance. The Ultracap will provide an affordable
buffer between utility power generation capacity and power consumption on a
massive scale. It is estimated that this type of device can save up to
fifteen billion dollars ($15 Billion) annually on America's estimated two
hundred billion dollar ($200 Billion) annual electric bill.

No mention of any vehicular applications I could see, but still very
interesting and
likely worth following.

From:
http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/provider/providerarticle.asp?Feed=BW&Date=20050\
708&ID=4951088

July 08, 2005

Contact Information:

Digital Gas, Inc.
Brian Smith
732-927-4073
energei@ optonline.net

Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
bassoon@...
415-821-3519

Otherwise, withoutcutting and re-designing the car, you might not fit
anything
bigger than a 120V pack of Optimas or Orbitals which would give dismal
range.

Marko doesn't do bad with his Fiamp.  50 miles on 120v of Optimas.
LR.........

Hi all,

I'm planning on making my battery boxes with steel (bed)frames and then lining
them with plastic
boxes and lids. HDPE seems like the right material. Does anyone have a
recommendation for a
plastic welder? I've seen a variety but don't know what options I need and what
don't matter. eBay
has all kinds and prices.

Wattage?

Temp range?

Airless? (I have a compressor.)

Do the rods have to be of the same material as the box?

Can I glue/bond/epoxy the boxes instead of welding?

Fiberglass over thin plywood instead?

Any input is appreciated.

Thanks

Dave Cover

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The "shorty" model looks appealing.   Do you have any pricing information?

Jeff Shanab wrote:

> I have been playing around with an Idea and I'd like the list's input.
>
> I would like to create a design, and prototypes then go ahead and
> produce a set of modular transmission and motor components
> specifically for EV conversions and ground up conversions.
>
> Item 1 is a hollow shaft transmission with internal clutch.
>   It will have either 2 or 3 speeds not counting reverse, and drum
> roll please, a park.
>   I talked with charlie at http://www.wintersperformance.com  about
> there transmission and the bert or brinn trannies, the clutch is only
> enguaged on these to give a person reverse or low just to get up to
> speed or meet the rules that say they must start from 0 and have a
> reverse.  Charlie was great, a really nice person, not afraid to talk
> to me. a kind of "feel free to call me if you have any more questions"
> type a guy. cool.  That tranny is 42 Lbs(as low as 37) with only 10
> lbs rotating in direct drive.
>
> The idea would be that with a hollow shaft I could drop in any
> adapters I need and also use it for transaxle setups
> For rear wheel drives, we get rid of the power robbing 90degree turn.
>
> options,
>   use planatery final drive that bolts on the end allowing straight
> thru, if combined with a hollow shaft motor, this allows a transaxle
> at the axle level and room for batteries or trunk space above.
>   use offset style final drive, more efficient but more space
>   use thru but offset input housing/adapter at motor
>
> How many speeds counting high1:1 ?
> Would Overdrive ever be desired in an EV gearbox?
> Would a input reduction for use with AC be a nice feature ie 10K rpm
> down to 5K rpm
> What kind of final drive ratios would be best
>
> we are talking about possibly 10 pieces to be manufatured and sold
> the big ones are
>
> 1. offset input, this is a c-face mount to motor that drops down to
> gearbox. Made about 1.5 inches thick containing sprockets and chain
> from Automatic transmission parts supplier. This could serve as an
> opertunity to alter the input ratio to the gearbox
>
> or 1a  the motor adapter plate for in-line use.
>
> 2. The gearbox
> 3. the final drive unit or
> 3a tail shaft
>
> 4 remote mount shifter
> 5 clutch master cylinder for vehicles that need to swith from cable or
> linkage.
>
> What do you think? what do we EV'rs want in a tranny?
>
>
> Next week(month) I am gonna go to the wrecking yard and chose a
> popular tranny at random and just dissassemble it and see what can be
> commendered.
>
>    Candidates are GM 4t60-65E or older 125's
>    Honda
>

STEVE CLUNN wrote:

> No load needed and they run close to one speed under different loads  (3600
> or 1800 seems common) , the 60 hz is what sets the speed.

What might be the min/max hz a motor could be ran at?  What's the deal
about the windings being wound for "50/60 hz" and what happens if
other hz are used?

What happens when the volts/amps going into the motor are adjusted?
How does that effect it?

Here you go from the University of Toronto
http://www.news.utoronto.ca/bin6/050110-832.asp

Quoting Don Cameron <ev@...>:

>  At the car show today a fellow was mentioning that Photovoltaic Paint is
> actually under development.  He mentioned that is much better power/area
> ratio than solar cells and may be able to be purchased. Anybody know much of
> this technology and its' viability?
>
>
>
> thanks
> Don
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
>

Lee Hart said:

> I think the best option may be to have a pusher trailer, where its
> engine actually powers its wheels to "push" the EV. This takes the
load
> off the entire EV drive train, and also eliminates the conversion
losses
> of ICE > generator > batteries > motor.

This prompted me to remind you folks that my pusher trailer is still up
for sale.

See http://www.jstraubel.com/EVpusher/EVpusher.htm for more information.

History:  This is JB Straubel's original Pusher "version 1".  I bought
it from him several years ago, ready to go, for $500.  I used it to get
my Rabbit up to Sacramento, and it worked great!  On the way back,
though, the engine overheated (I pushed it too hard), and I had it
completely rebuilt (several hundred more bucks).  I thought it would be
a worthwhile investment, as I was spending hundreds bringing my car to
various NEDRA races, but my situation changed, and the arrival of a baby
1.5 years ago means the days of long roadtrips to racetracks are over
for a while.  I haven't used it much since then, but it is still legally
registered as a trailer in CA.  It is located in the SF Bay Area
(Fremont).

I bought a real gas tank for it to replace the two plastic gas cans (see
pictures).  It will need to get mounted and the fuel line plumbed.  I
also painted it red.  It looks better, but not much.  Still will turn
heads.

I'd be happy to answer any further questions offline.  All told, I have
a bit over $1000 invested in it and will consider any reasonable offer.

Dean Grannes
1979 VW Rabbit, Blue Phantom
1959 MGA, Fire Chief
Pusher trailer
Zappy scooter

Dave Cover wrote:

> Do the rods have to be of the same material as the box?

I would think so.  Check out these various plastic welding rods:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=41602

Plastic welders:

Low cost, looks like a soldering iron, and uses compressed air

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=41592

Expensive, looks like a heat gun, doesn't use compressed air:

http://www.eastwoodco.com/shopping/product/detailmain.jsp?itemID=1992&itemType=P\
RODUCT&iMainCat=608&iSubCat=613&iProductID=1992

Eastwood also has the plastic rods..


Anyone ever used either or seen someone use one before?

In a message dated 7/10/2005 10:16:50 AM Pacific Standard Time,
djsharpe@... writes:

<< Is it possible to suck LPG or CNG etc into the intake of an idling CI
  engine so as to then have a combined fuel engine?  >>

Idling? Probably not a good idea without major injection pump redesign.
There are lots of propane/diesel kits on the market to boost power
(definitely) and mileage (maybe...)
CNG/diesel injection is common; 90%  cng for fuel, 10% diesel for ignition.
Very clean running.

Ben

On 7/11/05, Benteaches@... <Benteaches@...> wrote:
> In a message dated 7/10/2005 10:16:50 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> djsharpe@... writes:
>
> << Is it possible to suck LPG or CNG etc into the intake of an idling CI
>  engine so as to then have a combined fuel engine?  >>
>
> Idling? Probably not a good idea without major injection pump redesign.
> There are lots of propane/diesel kits on the market to boost power
> (definitely) and mileage (maybe...)
> CNG/diesel injection is common; 90%  cng for fuel, 10% diesel for ignition.
> Very clean running.

Do you have a link for those systems?  The ones I've seen are vapour
induction, nothing to do with the injection system.

(hopefully this is still in the context of range extender engines!)

Regards
Evan

On 7/11/05, Lawrence Rhodes <bassoon@...> wrote:
> Lee Hart said I could improve my range by putting capacitors between my
> controller and battery pack.  Would these supercaps be the best option when
> they are available or should I just use electrolytics and replace them every
> few years?  LR.......

Supercaps are electrolytics, of a sort.
  If you were putting additional capacitors on the input of an SCR
controller to smooth out the ripple current - less peukert's effect
and less heating of the batteries and cables (thus extending range a
bit), you'd want low ESR capacitors - as far as I know, supercaps are
relatively high ESR - that means, they wouldn't soak up much of the
ripple.
  And, bear in mind that this is a investing type announcement, so I
don't imagine you'd get far if you wanted to buy the worlds latest and
greatest supercap anyway :)

I don't think replacing bulk capacitors is something that most people
do every few years.  Maybe they're getting a bit shot after 10 years,
in an overloaded Curtis.  But, if you work it out properly and fit
sufficient volume and value in the first place, and keep them cool,
there's no reason they shouldn't outlast the vehicle or the rest of
the controller electronics.

Regards
Evan

Hi Tim and Everyone,

I *had* my Iota DC/DC converters switched on by these relays:

http://www.evsource.com/tls_elec_components.php

(the first one on the page).  You can run the relay's coil right off of
the main contactor Hairball output (pin #5).  I have a 1N4001 diode
across the coil also to prevent kickback (if you need more detail on
that, let me know).  Also, make sure to fuse the line from your pack +
to the relay.

I say "had" the Iota connected using relays because I have recently
changed that.  I got tired of wearing down my 12V SLI, and my pack
during charging only goes up to about 172V - right about at the limit
that the Iota likes to see, but not exceeding it.

-Ryan

>     I finally have my Zilla in hand and am ready to
>do the install. I also picked up an Iota DLS-55 DC/DC
>converter. It has an AC input rating of 132V, *1.33 =
>175.5V DC rating. My new pack voltage is going to be
>144V (24X6 US145s). With a 2.53V per cell final
>charging voltage this works out to 182V. Based on
>these numbers I decided to only have the DC/DC run
>when the truck is "on".
>     My original plan was to put it on the controller
>side of the main contactor. Reading the Zilla manual,
>this is a no go. I am going to have a contactor on the
>negative leg as well. The negative contactor will turn
>on with the key, before the Hairball gets it's "start"
>signal to turn on the positive contactor. Is here any
>problem leaving the DC/DC connected to the + side of
>the pack and use the contactor in the negative side of
>the pack to turn it on and off? If not, what kind of
>contactor can I get that will switch 160V dc at about
>15 amps?
>
>Thanks in advance for the info, I need to get my
>electric back on the road, $58 to fill the ice, and
>that's every 9 to 10 days. When I'm commuting with the
>electric it goes to $58 every 45 to 60 days!
>
>TiM
>

--
- EV Source -
Zillas, PFC Chargers, and Netgain WarP motors at great prices!
E-mail: mailto:ryan@...
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781

Framo-Werke (Germany) introduced their first 3-wheeler in 1932. It was
powered by a 200cc D.K.W engine with compressed air cooling and the vehicle
had the additional function in that it could be converted into a light
truck. Whilst the vehicle had two wheels at the front only one was driven by
the engine. A two seater version was also later introduced called the Framo
Piccolo.

In 1933 the Framo Stromer was created but unlike earlier vehicles it had two
driven front wheels. Whilst the 200cc D.K.W engine was still used a choice
of 400cc and 600cc engines were also available.

Evan Tuer wrote:

> Do you have a link for those systems?

This is the main one I know of:

http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=197990&prmenbr=361

http://www.bullydog.com/

Neon John wrote:
>On Sat, 09 Jul 2005 10:35:11 -0700,
"Roy LeMeur" wrote:
>
> >This reversing contactor is our Special of the Week-
> >http://cloudelectric.com/item.jhtml?UCIDs=866086%7C1215250&PRID=1525364
> >
>
>You must have read my mind!!!  I need to replace the reversing
>contactor on my Citi.
>
>Do you have any experience with this contactor operating overloaded?
>I thought I might parallel 2 and see how they hold up at 400 amps
>peak.

We have no experience with this particular contactor, they just came in.
Is very similar in many ways to a DC-88-
http://www.bridex.com.au/albright_dc88_to_dc92_contactor_drawings.htm

>Are the contacts mechanically interlocked like the stock Citi
>contactor?

I believe that is correct.

>Do you have the blowout coils available?

The blowouts are permanent magnets, we have some super powerful ones that
can be installed.

>TIA,
>John
>---
>John De Armond
>See my website for my current email address
>http://www.johngsbbq.com
>Cleveland, Occupied TN
.




Roy LeMeur
cloudevtech@...
http://www.cloudelectric.com
http://www.dcelectricsupply.com

Cloud Electric Vehicles
19428 66th Ave So, Q-101
Kent, Washington  98032

phone:  425-251-6380
fax:  425-251-6381
Toll Free:  800-648-7716




My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html

Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html

EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm

Lawrence Rhodes wrote:

>Marko doesn't do bad with his Fiamp. 50 miles on 120v of
>Optimas.

Aren't his the larger Group 31 Optimas instead of the D750s
I was referring to? The Group 31 weighed 16 pounds more than
the 44 pound D750. Try fitting 10 of those Group 31 into
that Schmitt.

Even still, 600 pounds of lead for 50 miles is not at all
bad. What speed is that 50 mile range quoted at? If it's 60+
mph, I'll be very impressed. The Fiat 600 is certainly not
known for having an aerodynamic body. It is quite light, on
the other hand. Only 1/3 of its weight in batteries, so I'm
guessing that range is quoted at 45 mph or so to 100%
discharge.

Any idea what its performance is like? 0-60?

Hi Stu and All,

--- Stu or Jan <stu@...> wrote:

>
> >
> > 72/28 distribution.
> >
> > How about this?
> >
> > Electric front end, engine in rear.
>
>     I'd put both in the rear to save weight, cost,
> complication.
>     With batts up front for balance, handling.
>
> What about drive traction on slippery roads using 1
> light rear wheel vs a
> FWD heavy?

     I doubt that the rear wheel will ever be that
light loaded with driver, especialy if both the ICE
and E motor it admidship.
     And when accelerating, weight shift aft. And so
far you amout of stated power will make it hard to
break the rear tire loose even with it being light.

>
> Also,  please point the way to Riley's (or any 10
> KW) VP system.

     Snowmobile and Salisbury? drives handle that kind
of power. Or Go-cart systems if just for the ICE.
     Of course not many snowmobiles in SE Fla!!!
                   HTH's,
                     Jerry Dycus

>
> BoyntonStu
>
>




____________________________________________________
Sell on Yahoo! Auctions – no fees. Bid on great items.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/

Ryan Stotts [mailto:stotts.ryan@...] wrote:

> Dave Cover wrote:
>
> > Do the rods have to be of the same material as the box?
>
> I would think so.

Same here.  When I welded my HDPE liners I just made my own rods by
cutting narrow strips off some of the left over sheet.  I used 1/8"
thick sheet and found that strips about 1/16-1/8" wide worked just fine.

>  Check out these various plastic welding rods:
>
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumb
> er=41602

Notice that PE rod is not offered...

>Plastic welders:
>
> Low cost, looks like a soldering iron, and uses compressed air
>
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=41592

This looks exactly like the unit I used.  Mine was borrowed from a local
technical college, so while this unit may be cheaper (if you already
have a compressor ;^), it may actually be the proper/professional
version of the tool.

>Expensive, looks like a heat gun, doesn't use compressed air:
>
>http://www.eastwoodco.com/shopping/product/detailmain.jsp?itemID=1992&i
temType=PRODUCT&iMainCat=608&iSubCat=613&iProductID=1992

I started out thinking I might be able to do my welding with my heat
gun, but upon experimenting discovered that the hot air spreads out too
much and results in far too much warpage of the plastic sheet to be
acceptable.  I'm sure the concentrator nozzles that this unit come with
help in this regard, but would still worry that the inability to control
the sir pressure would make it difficult to achieve as good results as
the other type of welder.

> Eastwood also has the plastic rods..

But still none for PE...

> Anyone ever used either or seen someone use one before?

I've used the compressor type.  Basically it has a heater element that
is either on or off; no thermostat, you must keep air flowing to avoid
burning it out.  You don't need a huge compressor to run it, I think
something like 6-8CFM is plenty (I rented a smallish compressor of the
sort more commonly used to run an air nailer from Home Depot to run it).
You adjust the welder's regulator and welder to workpiece distance to
get the air volume/pressure and temperature just so.

The heatgun type typically has 2 fan speeds (hi/lo) and a dial to adjust
the air temp.  Thinking back to welding the inside corners of my battery
boxes, I think that the heat gun type would be ackward to use as it is
way bulkier than the 'pencil iron' style welder.  I also think that
having the compressor run for a minute or two every 10 minutes (or so)
is preferable to having a heat gun coninuously whirring loudly inches
from your face, especially when you can stick the compressor somewhere
else to minimise noise and just run an air hose to your work area.

In the end, some of my welds turned out nice enough looking, however,
most were pretty ugly.  The welding instructor friend (steel trades
dept) through whom I borrowed the welder tells me he's never seen a
decent looking plastic weld anyway.  Looks are a secondary concern,
however.  I wasn't super confident in the penetration of my welds and
put a good bead of high quality RTV silicone over all the joints just in
case.  If I were to do it again I'd seriously consider just using the
RTV; its faster, better looking, and I don't have to worry about
brittleness of the joints.

Cheers,

Roger.

At 09:33 AM 7/11/2005, you wrote:
>Hell to All,

          I know the feeling. :^)

          I was hoping to see a picture of the Purple Phase, but, alas, just
a white box with a red x. <sigh>

          I was amused to see that the longest section was "Wayland's Words".


     _ /|        Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
    \'o.O'     <billdube@...>
=(___)=
         U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com

Hello Matthew and All,

"Matthew D. Graham" wrote:

> Wow! Great job from the Austin EV crew for the beginnings of a clean,
> informative site! And Chip, you really outdid yourself with that image of
> young Plasma Boy. Perfect!

Yes, I'm lucky to have these guys lending me a hand.

> For those of you who haven't checked it out yet, the picture gallery in the
> media center shows a lot of great step-by-step processes, like the detailed
> construction of a battery box, the Siamese 8, and the 13" motor for Purple
> Phase.

Yes, and there is more to come in the way of step by step photo stories on
building
different EV stuff. I take digital shots of pretty much everything I do, and
with my high
speed cable setup coming in two weeks, I'll be able to send off lots of pics, so
it will
be easier for me to put the photo stories together.

> John, we're looking forward to more pictures and videos!

Thanks Matt, it's great to get the feedback.

>From Dave Cover:


> I just downloaded a 65M file (Blue Meanie) and it has a .txt extension, not
.MOV like the other
> vidoes there. You may want to find out why the file is named that way before
too many people try
> it and fail.
>
Thanks Dave. Yeah, we pretty much knew about that error, but this is the kind of
feedback
we need right now so we can get it right. We couldn't get it to work
either....again,
we're pretty new at all this. That was the very first video we sent up to the
site, and
even the video itself was an error of sorts...way too large, and three videos
all linked
together, instead of being separated from each other. I think Tim is working on
it tonight
to correct the problem. The first section of that video, is a great vintage '84
bit, the
one I mentioned in my email this morning. The second one, is a '95 show and tell
demo of
Blue Meanie back when Optimas were still prototype only, and a 500 amp
air-cooled Auburn
running at 144V was the hot controller ticket. It does have some cool car stereo
demo
stuff, and even a bit of tire smoking :-) The last part, is a video clip from a
professionally done production called 'Where the Rubber Meets the Road'. It
features great
shots of Blue Meanie cruising at speed, and, my one day build of a '67 Datsun
minitruck,
complete with duct tape! I was honored to be on the same production that ex GM
CEO Robert
Stemple was on, and he even does a voice-over as I'm driving the minitruck out
the metal
shop's door late at night and as I'm heading down the road. That truck was later
drastically refined and went on to become 'Baby Blue', now owned by friend John
Tuss and
viewable at the EV Photo Album.

If any of you visit the photo pages, be sure and check back every once in a
while, as I'm
still putting more stuff up, nightly.

See Ya...John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland

>
>
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <stotts.ryan@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 2:35 PM
Subject: Re: Small AC motor question


> STEVE CLUNN wrote:
>
>> No load needed and they run close to one speed under different loads
>> (3600
>> or 1800 seems common) , the 60 hz is what sets the speed.
>
> What might be the min/max hz a motor could be ran at?  What's the deal
> about the windings being wound for "50/60 hz" and what happens if
> other hz are used?

I'm not the ac motor expert so somebody may have to correct me , . as the hz
goes up so dose the speed of the motor but the inductance also goes up , so
you would need more voltage to keep the same power coming out . ac motors
are allot like transformers . if you don't have a load on the secondary then
the primary won't pass much current , if you don't have a load on the motor
than it also won't take much current ether. When you load the motor down you
change how close the primary and secondary are , more current flows in both
and more power is made.


>
> What happens when the volts/amps going into the motor are adjusted?
> How does that effect it?
>
The funny thing is this doesn't effect the speed of the motor unless you go
to extremes ( where it dies form to much or to little ) . raising the
voltage ( and current ) won't make the motor go any faster it will just heat
up . Its the same with transformers , You need a certain amount of wire ,
and metal . The two determine the amount of power the motor will put out.
There is a device that you can plug your ac motor ( refrigerator ) into and
it will cut back the ac volts a little ,  once the motor is up the rpm and
make the motor use less power ( maybe 10%) .



Steve clunn  .



>

If you actually get snow buildup on roads, the 4 wheel cars tend to
make 2 ruts. I've read that the single wheel of a 3 wheeler tends to
have trouble riding on the snow berm in the middle of the road and
tends to slide into one of the ruts. I can imagine if this is the
driven wheel the problem is even worse.

> --- Stu or Jan <stu@...> wrote:
> > What about drive traction on slippery roads using 1
> > light rear wheel vs a
> > FWD heavy?






__________________________________
Discover Yahoo!
Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM and more. Check it out!
http://discover.yahoo.com/online.html

Just how is it that EV motors - or any electric motors for that matter - get
serviced, rebuilt, replaced, etc?  I mean, assuming one does not do the work
himself, which probably many on this list do.  So don't tell me what expert
Ev-ers do.  What does the "generic person" do when they have a bad electric
motor
in an appliance - say an air conditioner compressor, a washer or dryer motor,
a ceiling fan motor, etc.

Well, it just occurred to me that the "generic person" merely throws the
whole appliance away and buys another one.  So let's say you are in between the
generic person who forever throws away anything broke, and some technical EV
nerd who has the skills and tools and know-how to rebuild or fix an electric
motor himself.  Say you're the guy who takes a bad electric motor out of an
appliance, but at that point scratches his head (my Dad would fall into this
category).  What does this guy do?

In the ICE automotive world, the in between generic person who takes a bad
part off his car will go to the nearest Autozone or whatever and drop the bad
part on the counter, leave that as the "core," and pick up a new/rebuilt one.
Does it function this way in the electric motor world (probably a stupid
question)?  Under this "model," it is probably too expensive in terms of labor
and
whatever else for there to be some guy in the back of a shop somewhere who
could actually fix a bad automotive part - *your* part.  Therefore there's some
assembly line of anonymous bad automotive parts flowing out of these Autozone
type places off to God-knows where to get rebuilt, and an assembly line of
anonymous fixed/rebuilt auto parts flowing the other way to the "dealer."  You
drop
off your bad part, and you grab a good part.  We'll call this "model 1."  A
good question would also be - what is the person or entity at the end of this
flow of bad parts who ends up fixing/rebuilding all this stuff?

Living in Alabama as a kid, I seem to remember going with my dad to some
electric motor shop to "get a motor rewound" or words to that effect.  I
remember
we left the motor, and a few days later we went back to pick it up again.
This shop was rather large, and downtown, and I remember there being rows upon
rows of shelves behind the dude's counter, filled with electric motors.  Under
this model, some dude actually takes your motor, takes it apart, determines the
problem, fixes it, and you get your motor back.  I think this dude would also
sell you some rebuilt motor, if you needed one.  I presume that under this
model, the cost to fix an individual motor on an individual basis would still be
lower than just junking the motor and buying a new one.  But just thinking
about it, this might only apply to larger more expensive motors.  At any rate,
we'll call this "model 2."

Question 1: Which way does it work, for the most part?  Model 1?  Model 2?
Some other model?  If model 1, name the entity responsible, in the end, for
rebuilding the motor.  You know, personally, I don't see electric motor shops on
every corner, if ever.  Are there only a few of them?  Is it a good business?

Question 2: How do you foresee things working in the future, when most
everyone has an electric or a hybrid?  Do you foresee lots of electric traction
motors needing lots of servicing, rebuilding, etc?  If so, who's gonna do it? 
If
the dealer would replace the motor, where does the dealer send the bad one?  I
doubt the car manufacturers themselves would run motor repair shops back at
main headquarters.  Anyone have a clue as to how this will work?

Thanks.
Sam

EV Digest 4496

Topics covered in this issue include:

   1) Dennis Berube's Email
	 by Chip Gribben <futurev@...>
   2) Re: Start up current problems with PM's  Re: Re Sears Craftman Conversion
  - Motor Mounting Pictures
	 by Christopher Zach <czach@...>
   3) Re: Schmidt glider.
	 by "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
   4) Re:  Schmidt glider.
	 by "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
   5) Re: Power density flooded vs. BB600
	 by "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
   6) Re: Schmidt glider.
	 by "Dave" <Wilkerbeast01@...>
   7) Photovoltaic Paint
	 by "Don Cameron" <ev@...>
   8) Re: Schmidt glider(lightweight gliders and improving EV aero efficiency)
	 by "John Westlund" <westlujr@...>
   9) Re: BRUSA NLG5xx max voltage
	 by "David Roden" <evpost@...>
  10) Flexcar (was: Re: OT: Another idea that probably won't work)
	 by Doug Weathers <dougw@...>
  11) Re: OT: Another idea that probably won't work
	 by Doug Weathers <dougw@...>
  12) Re: Photovoltaic Paint
	 by Evan Tuer <evan.tuer@...>
  13) Solar cell energy balance
	 by Seppo Lindborg <seppo.lindborg@...>
  14) Re: Solar cell energy balance
	 by Evan Tuer <evan.tuer@...>
  15) Re: EVDL OT Warning RE: eBay.com Periodical Verification System
	 by "Peter VanDerWal" <evdl@...>
  16) Re: Pollution in small engines,   Re: Rules of thumb for engine,
            Generat...
	 by "Peter VanDerWal" <evdl@...>
  17) Re: Solar cell energy balance
	 by James Massey <jcmassey@...>
  18) Re: EV  eff       Re: Engine Generator Question
	 by "Peter VanDerWal" <evdl@...>
  19) RE: A Trihawk Hybrid idea. RE:  Jerry
	 by "Stu or Jan" <stu@...>
  20) Great aero info for EV's, especially pick ups,    Re: Schmidt
glider(lightweight gliders and improving EV aero efficiency)
	 by jerry dycus <jerry5335@...>
  21) project website update, 2005 Winston Solar Challenge, etc.
	 by "Christopher Robison" <eeyore@...>
  22) Re: Small AC motor question
	 by "STEVE CLUNN" <steveclunn@...>
  23) I can stop now
	 by "Mark Hanson" <mhanson@...>
  24) RE: Current limit!!!!    Re: Advancing ETEK motors
	 by "Marc Michon" <electromc@...>
  25) Re: Current limit!!!!    Re: Advancing ETEK motors
	 by Ken Trough <ken@...>
  26) Re: Photovoltaic Paint
	 by Bob Siebert <eesolar@...>
  27) Re: Current limit!!!! Re: Advancing ETEK motors
	 by Evan Tuer <evan.tuer@...>
  28) Re: Current limit!!!! Re: Advancing ETEK motors
	 by Evan Tuer <evan.tuer@...>

Hi,

Can someone pass along Dennis' Email or can Dennis get in touch with me?

A journalist who came across the NEDRA site wants to get in touch with
him to do a story on his electric dragster.

Thanks,

Chip

NEDRA Webmaster
http://www.nedra.com

>         Hi Chris, Mark and All,
>            First I would either put a resistor or
> lighter gge wire on it for softening the starting
> current which can be very hard if you start full batt
> voltage. You can either leave it inline or short it
> out for more power. It will help also if you hit
> something making the blade stop.
Ok, you *might* want to have a speed resistor in there somewhere, but
with a Craftsman tractor you have the belt and clutch that's attached to
the motor. Thus the motor spins up, then you drop the clutch which takes
the shock of getting the tractor moving. Same as with an ICE engine.
Worst case is the belt slips or breaks. So a resistor really isn't that
needed, especially if you have a hydrodrive transmission anyway.

On an E20, the motor is basically tightly coupled to the transmission
(power V belts) and no clutch so you need something to take up the
slack. That's the purpose of the resistors and the interlocks.

Now, on the Craftsman there is an interlock in there that prevents you
from starting the engine with the clutch in. You probably want to
replicate this in a way that requires the clutch to be in before the
electric motor can be started and drops out when you stop the motor.
Also want to do the same thing for the mower blades; there are switches
already in place; it's just a matter of wiring a latch-in relay.

The smallest Elec-traks (E8 and E10 I think) basically had a single
speed PM motor with a belt clutch. You would start the motor, select a
gear, then use the clutch to get things moving. Seemed to work fine, no
resistors needed.

>         PM motors are very bad at that. It doesn't
> have to be much, just to limit the amps to 300 or so.
> Probably just using 6gge wiring will do the job
> nicely.

*nod* One of the disadvantages of the Elec-trak deck is the direct
powered blades. If a blade hits a rock, things go bad. The best way to
fix this is to use the fiber washers to hold the blade to the hub and
not to tighten the nut too much. On the Craftsman you have a belt driven
system that can absorb the shocks so this is not as much of a problem.
Worst case the belt slips against the pulleys or is thrown.

Chris

Like I said truly light gliders are hard to come by.  The Corsica is a bit
heavy unless you are talking about a Corvair.  LR.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave" <Wilkerbeast01@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 2:58 PM
Subject: Re: Schmidt glider.


> Just as a for-instance, I have this dead Corsica in my back yard...
>
> "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"
>
> Dave
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ryan Stotts" <stotts.ryan@...>
> To: <ev@...>
> Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 2:55 PM
> Subject: Re: Schmidt glider.
>
>
>> Getting a glider is the easy part and they can be had for free or
>> nearly free, or most people already have a vehicle on hand to be
>> converted..  It's the prices of the motor, controller, charger, and
>> battery pack that is the stumbling block....
>>
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
To: "Ryan Stotts" <stotts.ryan@...>
Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: Schmidt glider.


> Ha try to get this one cheap.  Truly light vehicles are hard to come by
> unless you use a chevy/Suzuki Sprint.  LR......
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ryan Stotts" <stotts.ryan@...>
> To: <ev@...>
> Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 2:55 PM
> Subject: Re: Schmidt glider.
>
>
>> Getting a glider is the easy part and they can be had for free or
>> nearly free, or most people already have a vehicle on hand to be
>> converted..  It's the prices of the motor, controller, charger, and
>> battery pack that is the stumbling block....
>>
>

The BB's will stay stiffer & can be taken down real far.  Longer life.  Lots
of advantages.  LR...........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Zach" <czach@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 4:23 PM
Subject: Power density flooded vs. BB600


> Question for the flooded people: I have been working with these BB600
> cells and they seem to work very well in the Elec-trak. Even under a
> 200amp discharge rate they maintain voltage and can deliver well over 35
> ah (single string, 30 batteries, 30ah rated)
>
> In looking at the density of them, it looks like I can fit 60 of these in
> the space taken by four T105 batteries along with a 2*4 spacer between
> them. Or each T105 can be replaced by 15 BB600's with some serious
> headroom given back. Thus the power density of the BB600's is about 105ah
> per unit of T105 space. (I've seen 40ah, but I'll stick with 35.)
>
> Given that a single string of T105's has a 225ah capacity at C20, that's
> not too hot. However I know that we don't draw anywhere near C20; it looks
> like on a typical conversion of 20 T105's we're pulling around 400amps
> from the batteries peak, and I don't know what the average is. And there's
> that 20% reserve thing. So how many amp hours can you pull out of a string
> of T105s under normal driving conditions?
>
> Chris
>

If it was a Corvair, I wouldn't be trying to give it away! I wonder if it
would make a good "hybrid" by putting an electric drivetrain in the rear...

"Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"

Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 7:29 PM
Subject: Re: Schmidt glider.


> Like I said truly light gliders are hard to come by.  The Corsica is a bit
> heavy unless you are talking about a Corvair.  LR.....
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dave" <Wilkerbeast01@...>
> To: <ev@...>
> Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 2:58 PM
> Subject: Re: Schmidt glider.
>
>
>> Just as a for-instance, I have this dead Corsica in my back yard...
>>
>> "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"
>>
>> Dave
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Ryan Stotts" <stotts.ryan@...>
>> To: <ev@...>
>> Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 2:55 PM
>> Subject: Re: Schmidt glider.
>>
>>
>>> Getting a glider is the easy part and they can be had for free or
>>> nearly free, or most people already have a vehicle on hand to be
>>> converted..  It's the prices of the motor, controller, charger, and
>>> battery pack that is the stumbling block....
>>>
>>
>

At the car show today a fellow was mentioning that Photovoltaic Paint is
actually under development.  He mentioned that is much better power/area
ratio than solar cells and may be able to be purchased. Anybody know much of
this technology and its' viability?



thanks
Don

Victoria, BC, Canada

See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/

Lawrence Rhodes wrote:

> Like I said truly light gliders are hard to come by.

Light gliders aren't that expensive or hard to come by. The
Triumph GT6 I snagged for $1,200 has a weight of 1,793
pounds. 403 pounds of that is pure engine, not counting all
the ancillaries attached to it! Glider weight will slip into
the sub 1,200 pound category with a lot of stripping. Using
fiberglass, it's also not uncommon for racers to get the GT6
down to the sub 1400 pound category with its heavy engine.
Plus there's the issue of aerodynamics, very small frontal
area and according to the racers I spoke and according to
people at my university, a .32 Cd.(Convertable Spitfire Mk
I, II, and III has .39 referenced, MkIV .42) Got pictures of
it for those interested.

http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/630.html

I'm sure if you look around, you could find 60s era Mini
Coopers, Fiat 600s and Fiat 850 coupes or Spyders, and early
Datsun 1200s for about as cheap. They are more common than
you think, but just rare enough that you'll probably have
the only one in your city being driven around. One guy one
hour from where I live emailed me about a Datsun 1200
minitruck he snagged. I bet he could make a long ranger if
he copied the techniques from the following article:

http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=870

Wayland's Red Beastie having such modifications done on it
could end up doing 200 miles on its floodeds. A much smaller
truck like a Datsun minitruck? At least as much with the
same number of batteries. A lot of battery room and a high
GVWR in that minitruck.

I like that Schmitt, but I'd definately make a hardtop for
it and extensively modify its aerodynamics. You could
probably get Cd down quite low. As the glider exists now, I
remember reading those required 24 engine horsepower to go
60 mph! Not very good for aero at all; it would need
modifications.

I don't know how much weight could be removed from it, but
I'd guess 250-300 pounds of ICE related stuff. Not much
battery room but you could get it with some cutting and
setting up a direct drive system to free up space in that
transmission tunnel(IF it has a transmission tunnel). Then
you might be able to have your Tango wannabe by using twin
8's mounted to a final drive with a Zilla 2k and maybe 240V
of Yellowtops if you're very crafty. Otherwise, without
cutting and re-designing the car, you might not fit anything
bigger than a 120V pack of Optimas or Orbitals which would
give dismal range.

On 5 Jul 2005 at 1:39, ev@... wrote:

> On 1 Jul 2005 at 16:44, Michael Hurley wrote:
>
> > Interesting. I wonder what it's [NLG] actually short
> > for.
>

In case anybody's still interested in this utterly trivial matter, I just
ran across the answer in the front of my charger manual. Victor was spot on.
  It's "Netzladegeraet," meaning "Mains Battery Charging Apparatus."


David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator

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On Jul 7, 2005, at 5:09 PM, Jim Coate wrote:

> On the bright side, ZipCar is alive and well... I joined just so I
> could drive one of the Rav4-EVs (yes, a RAV4 EV near Boston!), but the
> bulk of their cars are ICE's so a perfect compliment to an EV owner.
>   http://www.zipcar.com/
> Only in the north east so far, but they are expanding...

And for Chicagoans and west-coasters, there's Flexcar.

http://www.flexcar.com/

I belonged to them when they were called CarSharing.  It's a really
good idea.  We spent two years in Portland without a car, relying on
public transportation and the Flexcar cars when we needed to take a
long trip or bring home large amounts of cargo.

>
>
> David Roden wrote:
>> If it's only 2-3 times a year, why not rent or borrow an ICE for
>> those days?
>> What we really need, gang, is station cars.  Unfortunately stncar.com
>> seems to be defunct, which isn't a good sign.
>
>
> --
> Jim Coate
> 1970's Elec-Trak's
> 1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
> 1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
> http://www.eeevee.com
>
>
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org

On Jul 8, 2005, at 4:42 PM, Neon John wrote:

> On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 08:19:01 -0700, Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
> wrote:
>>
>> Actually, it *does* happen every day. Certainly thousands, if not
>> millions of commuters drive to a Park-n-Ride, leave their car and take
>> the train, and upon arrival either walk or take another vehicle to
>> their
>> final destination.
>
> Of course they do, in the cesspool megacities.  I did that for awhile
> until I could escape.  Nobody not forced by circumstance to do this is
> going to, however.

I guess I must be a nobody, then.  I lived in Portland, OR for ten
years and sold our car in year 8 when Portland Car Sharing started up.
I was glad to get rid of it.  A gas car is an expensive nuisance, and
Portland has an excellent (for the US) mass-transit system.  I found it
relaxing to have someone else drive me to and from work, and Car
Sharing gave me access to cars and even a pickup truck if I needed one.

I could afford the car, but I just didn't want it.  The extra dollars
in the budget that would have gone into the car were welcome but not
required.

> What I want to see is people WANT to do an
> alternative to port to port driving because of the convenience and
> cost savings.

Your wish has been granted, then.  :)

>
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.johngsbbq.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
>
>
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org

Looks like a few places are developing it:

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2002-03/uoc--ubl032502.php

[..] The group's first crude solar cells have achieved efficiencies of
1.7 percent, far less than the 10 percent efficiencies of today's
standard commercial photovoltaics. The best solar cells, which are
very expensive semiconductor laminates, convert, at most, 35 percent
of the sun's energy into electricity.
[..]

also this one:
http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/001918.html

I haven't heard of any you can buy, but flexible PV has been around for a while.



On 7/11/05, Don Cameron <ev@...> wrote:
>  At the car show today a fellow was mentioning that Photovoltaic Paint is
> actually under development.  He mentioned that is much better power/area
> ratio than solar cells and may be able to be purchased. Anybody know much of
> this technology and its' viability?
>
>
>
> thanks
> Don
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
>

One friend of mine, a physicist, once commented on solar cells:
'When manufacturing a solar cell, one uses more energy than that cell is ever
going to produce during its life-time.' He was working on that field, so very
likely the comment was true, but this discussion was more than ten years ago.

Solar cells have developed thereafter a lot. Does anyone have exact knowledge
what is the energy balance of a modern solar cell in this context?

- Seppo

It's hard to get the exact knowledge!  However, speaking to a PV
researcher recently (last year), he indicated that the Sanyo panels
that we are using for grid-connected installation have an energy
payback time of about 2 years.  Since then, the design of those panels
has changed and is now more energy dense and uses less aluminium in
the frame than before, so I would expect that the figure has improved
even since then.

Sorry I don't have any figures to share about it, but as with rolling
resistance for car tyres, it is something that the manufacturers like
to keep secret!

Regards
Evan

On 7/11/05, Seppo Lindborg <seppo.lindborg@...> wrote:
> One friend of mine, a physicist, once commented on solar cells:
> 'When manufacturing a solar cell, one uses more energy than that cell is ever
going to produce during its life-time.' He was working on that field, so very
likely the comment was true, but this discussion was more than ten years ago.
>
> Solar cells have developed thereafter a lot. Does anyone have exact knowledge
what is the energy balance of a modern solar cell in this context?
>
> - Seppo
>
>

> On 9 Jul 2005 at 9:37, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>
>> I really hope that nobody fell for this obvious Phishing attemp.
>
> When did this cross the EV list??  I didn't receive it.
>

It did NOT come through the listproc, however it did come to my email
address that I only use for the EVDL. That means that whoever sent it was
using addresses harvested from the EVDL.  I felt it was probable that
others on the list recieved a similar email and felt that warning folks
was prudent.

Sorry for the small waste of bandwidth.

>> It just isnt that simple.
>
>     It's not that hard either. Just what can't I do
> that Detroit does?


I just can't shake the feeling that if it was as trivial as you seem to
think it is Jerry, that Honda or someone else would already be building
generators with these features.

Reduced pollution and increased fuel economy from simple lowcost
improvements would mean that the company that could bring this product to
market would have a huge advantage and everyone else would scramble to
duplicate it.

The fact that NONE of the companies that specialize in small engines, with
teams of highly skill professionals who are experts in this field, has
marketed and engine like this is a good indication (in my book) that it
isn't anywhere near as simple as you think it is.

Heck they don't even have to worry about longevity much, just as long as
most of the generators live past the warranty period.

At 11:07 AM 11/07/05 +0100, Evan wrote:
>It's hard to get the exact knowledge!  <snip> an energy
>payback time of about 2 years.  Since then, <snip> figure has improved
>even since then.
>
>On 7/11/05, Seppo Lindborg <seppo.lindborg@...> wrote:
> > One friend of mine, a physicist, once commented on solar cells:
> > 'When manufacturing a solar cell, one uses more energy than that cell
> is ever going to produce during its life-time.' He was working on that
> field, so very likely the comment was true, but this discussion was more
> than ten years ago.

Hi All

Aha, that furphy again!

ReNew magazine (published by the Alternative Technology Association in
Australia) a couple of years ago (without looking up the exact edition) did
an article on the subject. Energy payback including the aluminium smelting,
etc is about two years, based on typical energy production of average
panels, calculated (and published the calculations) against published
figures for materials. One manufacturer (Kyocera?) co-generates more power
(per year) at their factory site via photovoltaics than the factory
requires. So you could say for them there is no energy cost to make them
(since the energy is produced *by* solar panels).

Two years seems about right to my knowlege for the energy payback.
Financially it is a lot longer (5 to 20 years), depending on the cost of
power where you are, which is what affects most of us. Yes I'd like to put
solar on my suburban house, if the drought doesn't break (we are on
hydro-electric here) I may have to or be left in the dark.

James

>> FWIW, top speed on my pickup is slightly over 70
>> mph.  Max power out of my
>> batteries (120V worth of 8V GC) is just under 30 kw.
>>  All power figures
>> measured with an E-meter.
>
>     I'd bet if you used a good aero camper type shell
> like I've described before you could cut that 20%
> easily, maybe more.

Actually I tried a camper shell for a couple weeks a few years ago, power
requirements went UP 10-15% so I removed it.
Granted the shell was not all that aerodynamic, as Irecall iteven
increased frontal area slightly.

>> Measured, in my case, between the batteries and the
>> controller.
>
>    A good place but at the power plug is better though
> hard to find a set speed power consumption that way.

It depends on what you want to measure.  At the outlet is the best place
to measure average economy, at the batteries is best to measure
instantaneous power requirements at a given speed.

>> while driving.  Granted rapid charging them will
>> create some heat, but in
>
>    If lead and charged at under 80% state of charge,
> almost no heat is made from charging, discharging,
> especially if you have a gen making most of the power
> needed and recharging quickly. Eff approaches 98%!!!

I'm going to dissagree here; less heat Yes, but almost none?
The heat build up from discharge will be slower,but accure over a longer
period of time.  Even if you keep the charging to below 80% SOC, the rapid
charging requirement will cause battery heating.

>
>
>> the short run that just improves their performance.
>> Since these long
>> trips aren't supposed to be all that frequent, the
>> loss in life span is
>> small.
>
>    Lead batts love to be used as long as they are not
> abused and have a longer life in miles, not shorter.
> It's batts that sit around not used that die.

If you were paying attention, my comment was NOT about use, but about
using HOT batteries.

>>
>> Still his other concerns are valid (engine and
>> controller heating).
>> This is one of the reasons that I'm a proponent for
>> parallel hybrid schemes.
>
>     But you don't reconize as Lee does the part load
> ineff of a parallel system.

I recognize this, however it has nothing to do with my concept since the
engine will only be used at or near it's maximum efficieny point.  That's
why you have the Emotor, to suplement the ICE when the load goes up and
(in regen mode) to addload to it when it drops.

This is exactly what you are planning with the series hybrid, only the
parallel hybrid doesn't loose efficiency due to double conversion looses,
nore does your EV portion need to run full out continuously.  Finally,
since you're not loosing power due to double conversion, youcan use a
smaller ICE which means lower weight, lessfuelconsumption and therefor
lower emissions.

> There is a reason ICE cars
> only get 7% of their fuel to the road where EV's get

Where did you pull that number from?  It's two to three times that much in
all of the figures I've seen.


>> > For all these reasons, a pusher trailer with the
>> wheels mechanically
>> > connected to the engine makes the most sense to
>> me.  It can be done
>> > cheaply, efficiently and cleanly.
>>
>> This is a good idea.
>
>     Not when cost, weight, part load ineff is counted.

Not if it's not running at partial load, if you size the ICE to be just
powerfull enough to push the vehicle at highway speeds when running at
it's max efficiency point, then you don't end up running it at parial
load.

>> I prefer having the ICE mounted in/on the vehicle
>> though for convienence.
>      And why I want to make my gens under 100lbs or
> less than 2 batteries!!

Well let's see...if the generator weighs 100 lbs, then the generator head
probably weighs 30 lbs or so, that means the ICE weighs about 70.
Loose the generator head and you can connect the ICE to the wheels through
a transmission that problably weighs LESS than 30 lbs. You can then also
save weight by using lighter Emotors and controllers, since they won't
have to run continuously at full power.  Plus you don't have double
conversion losses so you gain efficiency.
Finally, if you're really clever, you can design your transmission to
allow the ICE to drive the Emotor without turning the wheels and now you
have a generator to use while stationary.
You could probably even save some more weight by further reducing the size
of you ICE since you're not loosing power due to double conversion.

> How muchwasted  energy does it
> take to lug 300-500lbs or more instead of 100lbs all
> the time? Especially something you need rarely?

The size/weight of the ICE has very little to do with wether it's a series
or parallel hybrid, but rather the size of the vehicle.
If a 100lb generator is sufficiently large for your series hybrid, then an
even smaller ICE can do the job for a similar size/weight parallel hybrid.

>> > A parallel hybrid setup where the gas engine
>> supplies the base motive
>> > power for cruise and the electric motor supplies
>> acceleration and hill
>> > climbing power but no cruise power would seem to
>> be the best
>> > configuration to me.
>>
>> I concure.
>
>     It's too costly, ineff, heavy for me,

See, now you aren't making any sense since it's cheaper (smaller
emotor/controller and no generator head), more efficienct (no double
conversion losses) and ligher (smaller emotor/controller and no generator
head, plus smaller ICE)

>
> 72/28 distribution.
>
> How about this?
>
> Electric front end, engine in rear.

     I'd put both in the rear to save weight, cost,
complication.
     With batts up front for balance, handling.

What about drive traction on slippery roads using 1 light rear wheel vs a
FWD heavy?

Also,  please point the way to Riley's (or any 10 KW) VP system.

BoyntonStu

Hi John and All,
             Excellent post John!! Very good info on
making truely cost effective, eff EV's.

--- John Westlund <westlujr@...> wrote:

> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
>
> > Like I said truly light gliders are hard to come
> by.
>
> Light gliders aren't that expensive or hard to come
> by. The
> Triumph GT6 I snagged for $1,200 has a weight of
> 1,793
> pounds. 403 pounds of that is pure engine, not
> counting all
> the ancillaries attached to it! Glider weight will

     The older iron 4cyl engines really weighed a lot,
almost as 4/5th's as much as a Chevy small block V8!!

> slip into
> the sub 1,200 pound category with a lot of
> stripping. Using
> fiberglass, it's also not uncommon for racers to get
> the GT6
> down to the sub 1400 pound category with its heavy
> engine.

     The rolling frames from these, MG's, and early
compact pickups, ect  are a good lightweight start for
a custom EV's too.


> Plus there's the issue of aerodynamics, very small
> frontal
> area and according to the racers I spoke and
> according to
> people at my university, a .32 Cd.(Convertable
> Spitfire Mk
> I, II, and III has .39 referenced, MkIV .42) Got

      Thanks for those numbers, convertibles are almost
always much higher drag with the top up or down as
these numbers show.


> pictures of
> it for those interested.
>
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/630.html
>
> I'm sure if you look around, you could find 60s era
> Mini
> Coopers, Fiat 600s and Fiat 850 coupes or Spyders,
> and early
> Datsun 1200s for about as cheap. They are more
> common than
> you think, but just rare enough that you'll probably
> have
> the only one in your city being driven around. One
> guy one
> hour from where I live emailed me about a Datsun
> 1200
> minitruck he snagged. I bet he could make a long
> ranger if
> he copied the techniques from the following article:
>


>
http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=870

     Excellent article and even though it's more crude
than the shell I proposed and heavier as it retained
it's bed. Along with other aero improvements, it got
28% better gas mileage which would be the same 28%
increase in EV range at speed. This is much cheaper
than more batts, weight, more powerful
controller/motor.
      His other improvements with my aero shell version
would do at least 10-15% better eff, range over the
stock body than his shell did.
      Hopefully some here will start thinking about
doing this instead of throwing money/batts at it for
more range.

>
> Wayland's Red Beastie having such modifications done
> on it
> could end up doing 200 miles on its floodeds. A much

   Or better, get rid of 1/3 it's batts for the same
range with my version of the aero shell saving weight,
costs big time.

> smaller
> truck like a Datsun minitruck? At least as much with
> the
> same number of batteries. A lot of battery room and
> a high
> GVWR in that minitruck.

     If I wasn't so involed in the Freedom EV now I'd
consider doing one of these old pickups when they were
actually compact!!

>
> I like that Schmitt, but I'd definately make a
> hardtop for
> it and extensively modify its aerodynamics. You
> could
> probably get Cd down quite low. As the glider exists

     The Schmit isn't aero at all so not really good
for higher speed work without large mods so better to
start from scratch.
     Thanks John for the good info, hopefully EV'ers
will listen to the real way to increase preformance
which is lowering weight and cutting aero/rolling
drag.
      I'll see my fiberglass fabicator today on the
Freedom EV tooling cost estimates anyway and ask him
about doing these aero camper shells for both EV's and
ICE pick-up's. Also they will have much more room than
a reg bed has.
      If anyone is interseted, let me know off list.
                  Jerry  Dycus







__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Make Yahoo! your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

This past Thursday and spilling over into Friday morning, Mark Farver and
I volunteered as electrical inspectors for solar cars competing in this
year's Dell-Winston School Solar Car Challenge. This year's event is a
road race from Round Rock, TX (just north of Austin) to Pasadena, CA.

I've taken some photos of the cars (all built by high school teams) and
posted them to my website:

http://ohmbre.org


The rest of the site is coming along slowly (matching pace with my truck
conversion project), but hopefully in the next week or two I can start
posting about the good stuff as the truck starts to come apart, and I
start to plan the rear suspension.

For the moment, next on my list is to actually get a decent picture of the
truck itself on the site.  I've gotten a lot of cool parts in so far (rear
end and axle housing, controller, charger, etc), time to post some pics of
that stuff too.  Maybe this evening...

   --chris

No load needed and they run close to  one speed under different loads  (3600
or 1800 seems common) , the 60 hz is what sets the speed.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <stotts.ryan@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 7:02 PM
Subject: Small AC motor question


> You know those little 1/4 hp to 5 hp air cooled AC motors like these?
>
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=92104
>
> Can these be powered up(110v) and ran with no load without flying
> apart?  Or must they be ran with a load on them?
>
>

I thought I'd pass this on since it's important for safety for those with 2-door
Geo tracker conversions.  I changed my rear brakes from the puny 8.5" diam to
10" and were wider also.  The rear pressure reducer was taken apart and disabled
(mounted under the rear axle).  The larger brakes were from a 4-door model but
none could be found at the junk yards so I ordered backing plates from the
wheeler-dealer $270 and got drums and spring giblets from the auto supply store
for $160.  (The fronts were vented but no larger diameter rotor or piston so I
left it alone.)  It can screech to a stop *much* faster than before during a
panic stop and can lock up the wheels now.  I did this a few years back (in the
late 70's) on a willy's jeep went to the 10" brakes with similar results (from a
larger Jeep Wagoneer).
Mark

So my problem is I fried the altrax SPX 48v 400a controller
runniing ETEK
in 5 miles hit 50 mph couple times cruised at 35-40
ambient tempature 98 degrees
do i go down to a 300 a controller?
not go up 500a controller at 60%
Myles on forced air cooling
how do you have your fan set up?
a fan and cowling to blow through slots on outside of motor?
what type of fan?
if you want to get heat off brush area ? can cut slot in plastic cover over
brushes
air blows out perferations on end of cap?
Marco
Ken Trough [mailto:ken@...] wrote:

> > I wouldn't use over a 330 amp controller on the Etek if
> > you want it to live.
>
> Is this really the consensus? I've seen a lot of race rides
> with ETEKs juiced up beyond 330A.

It is a time at amps issue.

The Etek is rated for 300A for 30 seconds (or 330A for 1 minute,
depending on whose specs you read), and 20HP peak/8HP continuous or 15HP
peak/6HP continuous, again depending whose specs you read.

There will be some ultimate maximum current that results in immediate
failure, and the drag racers may be able to advise us as to where this
might be, but below that level it is a matter of how long the current
can be sustained before the comm/motor overheats.

Drag racing results in fairly low duty cycle operation (i.e. the motor
may be run hard, but it is only run for at most a few tens of seconds
and then allowed to rest for some number of minutes), so fairly high
currents can be tolerated.  For street use, even a 300A controller could
kill the Etek if it is able to sustain a motor current high enough for
long enough.  Ideally, you want a controller that will thermally derate
its output to a safe level before the motor fries.  That is, don't use a
500A controller turned down to 300A and think you're safe because the
controller will probably be able to sustain 300A for longer than the
motor can.  Use a 300A controller that will heat up and derate before
the motor overheats (i.e. it shouldn't sustain 300A for more than
30s-1min before derating, and should derate to a continous current that
is no more than the motor's 1hr rating, for instance).

Cheers,

Roger.
Shawn suggested:

> Not just forced air, but good air flow around the motor is also very
> important. Keeping the motor more exposed to allow the ambient heat to
> dissipate quickly helps.

Noone can argue that keeping the shell cool is a good idea, but forcing air
THRU the motor is essential if it's drawing more than 50amps steady.  And
cooling the external case will do little to keep the ETEK from thermal
runaway if you're in the 100amp+ range.  Even if you blow air at the case
slits, the air will go around the motor before it goes thru it.  So sure,
you may cool the case, but the armature and commutator overheat and the
motor fries.  Force cooling air thru the armature where the heat gets
generated (easy to do with the ETEK) and the heat never gets to the case in
the first place---I can run my ETEK at 36v with 150amps continuous with the
case only barely getting warm inside an outboard motor cowling on my boat.
Meanwhile, the cooling exhaust temperature is a nice hand-warming
temperature.  Only thing I can do better is to replace the non-perforated
brush cap with the perforated one to help keep them cool.

Here's a question: which way is it best to blow the air thru the ETEK?  From
the brush end or TO the brush end?  With my outboard boat motor
installation, air flow was initially from top-bottom (i.e. from the brush
end down).  Later I changed the airflow direction to blow axially up thru
the motor towards the brushes.  This ensured pulling cooler air from the
bottom of the outboard, up thru the motor, thru the fan and up towards the
cowling exhaust port.  But there was nothing ensuring the air would exhaust
thru that port, and instead was allowed to recirculate in my motor cowling
(which slowly got warmer and warmer).  This led to the addition of an
exhaust plenum at the top of the motor cowling above the fan----motor and
motor case then stayed cool.

-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.

>  So my problem is I fried the altrax SPX 48v 400a controller runniing
> ETEK in 5 miles hit 50 mph couple times cruised at 35-40 ambient
> tempature 98 degrees do i go down to a 300 a controller?

How heavy was the vehicle that experienced this failure?

-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)

Hold on to your wallet.

/Bob
On Jul 10, 2005, at 9:49 PM, Don Cameron wrote:

>  At the car show today a fellow was mentioning that Photovoltaic
> Paint is
> actually under development.  He mentioned that is much better power/
> area
> ratio than solar cells and may be able to be purchased. Anybody
> know much of
> this technology and its' viability?
>
>
>
> thanks
> Don
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
>

On 7/11/05, Ken Trough <ken@...> wrote:
> >  So my problem is I fried the altrax SPX 48v 400a controller runniing
> > ETEK in 5 miles hit 50 mph couple times cruised at 35-40 ambient
> > tempature 98 degrees do i go down to a 300 a controller?
>
> How heavy was the vehicle that experienced this failure?

Jerry gave a description in another thread:
[..]
      The situation was starting up a slight incline
driveway with a 4.3-1 drive ratio, 12" tires, 22" dia
driving a 1,000 lb EV.
     The controller was a contator and a GC starting
resistor in series with 36vdc 3/4 charged T105 batt
pack with 4 and 6gge wires so I doubt current was over
350 amps though could be wrong.
[..]

Personally I guess that the current was considerably more than this,
given that it looks like the commutator segments melted like a fuse
almost immediately.  More like 1000A, which is certainly possible with
a contactor controller, and a rather heavy vehicle with a single ratio
transmission.  Jerry does mention a resistor (unknown value), but I
think that the current must have been pretty high for this to happen -
just my opinion based on playing with Lynch motors.

Oops, I thought you were asking about Jerry's ETEK failure, not Ken's
controller failure, my mistake (red face)!


On 7/11/05, Evan Tuer <evan.tuer@...> wrote:
> On 7/11/05, Ken Trough <ken@...> wrote:
> > >  So my problem is I fried the altrax SPX 48v 400a controller runniing
> > > ETEK in 5 miles hit 50 mph couple times cruised at 35-40 ambient
> > > tempature 98 degrees do i go down to a 300 a controller?
> >
> > How heavy was the vehicle that experienced this failure?
>
> Jerry gave a description in another thread:
> [..]
>      The situation was starting up a slight incline
> driveway with a 4.3-1 drive ratio, 12" tires, 22" dia
> driving a 1,000 lb EV.
>     The controller was a contator and a GC starting
> resistor in series with 36vdc 3/4 charged T105 batt
> pack with 4 and 6gge wires so I doubt current was over
> 350 amps though could be wrong.
> [..]
>
> Personally I guess that the current was considerably more than this,
> given that it looks like the commutator segments melted like a fuse
> almost immediately.  More like 1000A, which is certainly possible with
> a contactor controller, and a rather heavy vehicle with a single ratio
> transmission.  Jerry does mention a resistor (unknown value), but I
> think that the current must have been pretty high for this to happen -
> just my opinion based on playing with Lynch motors.
>

EV Digest 4495

Topics covered in this issue include:

   1) Re: TdS Report #75: Photos - Runabout Cycles
	 by keith vansickle <keithvansickle01@...>
   2) Re: Motor improvements
	 by Jim Husted <hi_torque_electric@...>
   3) Re: battery temperature measurement
	 by "John G. Lussmyer" <Cougar@...>
   4) Re: Details !!!!     Re: Engine Generator Question
	 by jerry dycus <jerry5335@...>
   5) Re: Pollution in small engines,
	 by Tim Clevenger <tjclevenger@...>
   6) RE: State of Charge calculations - Eureka!!!
	 by "Myles Twete" <matwete@...>
   7) RE: INVENTION ON HOW TO LEAN A CARB ENGINE.
	 by "Stu or Jan" <stu@...>
   8) Re: Schmidt glider.
	 by Ryan Stotts <stotts.ryan@...>
   9) Re: Schmidt glider.
	 by "Dave" <Wilkerbeast01@...>
  10) Re: Re Sears Craftman Conversion - Motor Mounting Pictures
	 by Christopher Zach <czach@...>
  11) Re: Motor improvements
	 by James Massey <jcmassey@...>
  12) Re: Sears Craftman Conversion - Motor Mounting Pictures
	 by Christopher Zach <czach@...>
  13) Power density flooded vs. BB600
	 by Christopher Zach <czach@...>
  14) Start up current problems with PM's  Re: Re Sears Craftman Conversion -
Motor Mounting Pictures
	 by jerry dycus <jerry5335@...>
  15) New Beetle EV wins first place!
	 by "Don Cameron" <ev@...>
  16) Small AC motor question
	 by Ryan Stotts <stotts.ryan@...>
  17) Re: A Trihawk Hybrid idea.
	 by jerry dycus <jerry5335@...>
  18) Re: Small AC motor question
	 by "Cory R. Cross" <crcross@...>
  19) Re: Hybrid Engine-LPG+Diesel
	 by jerry dycus <jerry5335@...>
  20) RE: A Trihawk Hybrid idea.
	 by "Stu or Jan" <stu@...>
  21) Aero, Tooling ,  costs    Re: Details !!!!
	 by jerry dycus <jerry5335@...>

hi all,
if you are interested in human/electric hybreds be
sure to check this out.  I just bought the blue trike
without the yellow tops--insted i am adding valence
technology li-ion 48v  40AHR have not recieved the
trike yet but it is on the way.  once i get it i will
install the new batts and see how it performs if you
all are interested let me know and i will keep the
list updated if it needs to go to another forum let me
know that too.

keith

--- TdS_Reports@... wrote:

> TdS Report #75: Photos - Runabout Cycles
>
> Photographs from the Tour de Sol:
>
>
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2005/photos_020.html
>
>
> Runabout Cycles
>
>
>
> Josh Kerson explains the customized RunAbout Cycle.
> The seat is missing in this photo, but that allows
> us to see the lead-acid
> batteries that are mounted under it and the motor
> controller mounted behind it.
> Notice that the pedals are on an adjustable arm that
> makes finding the perfect
> position for any individual rider easy.
> Other things to notice:
> wheel fenders, a pair of rearview mirrors, and the
> pair of side-mounted
> steering handles.
>
> Here is another RunAbout trike, equipped with saddle
> bags.
> The lithium ion battery pack and charger are in the
> white box under the seat.
> The motor and drive chain are visible in this photo,
> mount just forward of the rear wheel.
>
>  -      -       -       -
>  The complete set of Tour de Sol Reports for 2005
> can be found at:
>
> http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2005
>  The complete set of past Tour de Sol Reports can be
> found at:
>
>
http://www.FovealSystems.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
>  -      -       -       -
>  The above is Copyright 2005 by Michael H. Bianchi.
>  Permission to copy is granted provided the entire
> article is presented
>  without modification and this notice remains
> attached.
>  For other arrangements, contact me at
> +1-973-822-2085 .
>  -      -       -       -
>  For more on the NESEA Tour de Sol, see the web page
> at
>                         http://www.TourdeSol.org
>  -      -       -       -
>  Official NESEA Tour de Sol information is available
> from the sponsor,
>  the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association
> (NESEA) at
>   413 774-6051 , and  50 Miles Street, Greenfield,
> MA 01301 , and
>   nesea@... .  All media enquiries should be
> addressed to ...
>
>  Jack Groh
>  Tour de Sol Communications Director
>  P.O. Box 6044
>  Warwick, RI  02887-6044
>
>  401 732-1551
>  401 732-0547 fax
>  GrohPR@...
>
>




____________________________________________________
Sell on Yahoo! Auctions – no fees. Bid on great items.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/

James wrote:

>I am not sure if there would be any benefit in separating the fields, putting
them in parallel. I think that there is maximum torque from the series
connection?



Series wound will give you more torque, but will run at a lower speed than a
series parallel set up would with a given current.  Go ahead and try it as is
and see if the motor has enough speed for your truck at 120 volts.  You can
always modify it if you find it has more than enough torque but not enough top
end speed.  If it’s good then it’s good and you have waited no time and effort. 
Like you said torque is what your after so you are set up for that as is.



>I'm intending to put Kevlar wrapping around the edges of the commentator.  What
epoxy is recommended to bed Kevlar in?   Is super-strength Araldite OK? (I
suspect it isn't since I expect 120 degrees C or more on the faces of the
comm.).  If you do decide to wrap it you will have to occur the cost of getting
it rebalanced.



I have yet to use any banding type materials on a commentator and so would have
little input here.  But as you state you will be running at around 4500 RPM. 
You should be way below mechanical on that motor.  But, being that motor is from
a maker that I’m unfamiliar with I’d hate to be quoted here, but I feel your
motor should take 4500 without any mishaps.



> Jim, I went to the EIS web site you listed previously (eis-inc.com) and looked
for fusa-fab you mentioned - search of their site doesn't find it. I guess you'd
be happy to supply some, but the problem I have is not

being in the US. Are you able to take a VISA card?





As far as Fusa Fab is concerned it is one of my little secret item I found there
that they hide from people, lol. Yes I could send you a roll, and yes I take
visa, but I will get the number and post it for you and the others to use as
needed.  You might also need to call a branch to get it.   If you find out that
you just can’t get it easily through EIS then contact me off list and I’ll send
you down a roll maybe with some terminals and insulators, but this I feel would
be a worst-case scenario.  It would work great on any solid copper jumper leads
to insulate them.



>The brush cross-connections are square wire, only 4mm x 4mm (16mm2).  The
armature connection wires go to one holder, and then via the cross connect, so I
think that the current would not be evenly shared. I am thinking that there
could be benefit if they were bigger, but how much bigger? I have some 3mm x
15mm copper flat bar, 45mm cross connection. If I put the armature connection
wires onto the cross-connects, that would improve the current sharing. I intend
to put larger brass bolts into the brush holders for the holder connections -
perhaps silver-soldering brass studs into the housing and using nuts?



As you stated you motor terminal lead jumps to only one holder and then jumps to
the other.  I too feel this design puts the one brush holder into the weak link
area, and I’ve never liked this set up.  I would do it as you described or
install some nice cable.  Cable can also be silver soldered to the brass stud,
but you don’t have to be as exact in measuring it.  It is also able to handle
the current (see cable vs. Solid) and would be easier to make.  Have you silver
soldered before?  If not I will post a list of do’s and don’ts.  One note on
sliver soldering, you must use a brazing flux to get it to stick onto brass.

As far as upgrading to a 3/8” (or 10 mm) brass stud, if you can do it
comfortably then do it.  I hate when they put little terminals on motors.  The
brush end will probably be easier than the field coil connection being you will
have to remove the coils to do it but I don’t know that for sure.  If you could
send pic’s I’d be more than happy to aid you as you go.  As far as my upgrade
post goes I felt some things are easier than others and some would only be done
if a motor had failed do to one of the many weak links they all seem to have in
one department or another.  Your brush leads are a classic change if you can
design and should be an easy upgrade to do.



>I am assuming the motor (due to its age) does not have high temperature
insulation (I can see what seems to be fiberglass in places).



Fiberglass is good and is Class H insulation if it looked like a cloth then it
is not class H.  Plastic bobbin’s (the new way to insulate) is also rated class
H, but can melt and in my opinion are not as good as a fiberglass wrapped coil.



> Is there likely to be benefit from increasing the diameter of the motor
connections? (it’s 5/16" now).



Brass is soft and I’ve found most people over torque the nuts causing the
terminal to strip.  Being this is the connection point of your battery cables
and the entrance to your motor is it the weak link?  Is the material twice as
big as the jumpers to your holders? They get to share to current as the terminal
takes the whole current.  This may have to be done by someone who knows how. 
This type of upgrade would be done for most when a motor was being rebuilt.  If
something has to be replaced then upgrade it and don’t replace it with the same
undersized part is all I’m saying.  Sometimes the adage if it aint broke don’t
fix it applies.

Hope this helps, Keep us posted

Jim Husted

Hi-Torque Electric



---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail for Mobile
  Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.

Those are the ones I used with my BMS.  In order to make life easier, I
used the version that has a separate power wire, so you need a total of 3
wires instead of 2.  Being able to read N temperature sensors using just 1
pin of a micro controller is convenient.  I was using at Atmel AVR Mega8.

At 09:41 PM 7/9/2005, David Murphy wrote:
>Dallas semiconductor (acquired by maxim) made an interesting
>temperature sensor. It has a single wire interface, powered by it's
>data line. Furthermore, each device has a unique address so that you
>can hang multiple devices off of the same line. There is also an
>alarm function that I believe allows you to quickly id which device (s) on
>the bus have exceeded a user define temperature limit. Here's
>a link to information on the device.
>
>http://www.maxim-ic.com/quick_view2.cfm/qv_pk/2815/ln/en

--
John G. Lussmyer      mailto:Cougar@...
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....  http://www.CasaDelGato.com

Hi Peter and All,

--- Peter VanDerWal <evdl@...> wrote:

> >> > If the car can run on as little a 600 wh/mile
> at
> >> 60 mph (can any
> >> > currently available EV actually run that
> >> efficiently over the long
> >> > term in traffic and dealing with elevations?),
> >> you're looking at a
> >> > power requirement of 36kw.
> >>
> >> Umm, that's a tad high, I'd say 15-20 kwh is more
> >
> >     You think!!
> >
> >
> >> accurate for typical
> >> EVs.  Jerry will probably disagree (and insist
> it's
> >> much lower) but he
> >> tends to be wildly optimistic.
> >
> >     Of course I disagree, what would you expect
> ;-))
> >     But my disgreements are based on facts. My
> >  E woody gets MOL 100wthrs/mile from the plug at
> 45mph
>
> 45mph average or top speed? Anyway, we are talking

    At the moment, top speed is 45mph as I had to cut
back to 36vdc battery pack as the VW front end could
not handle the extra weight and why I never fixed it
completely up.
     But at 48vdc it did 60 mph on a 3.5hp 36vdc 100amp
GE citi-car motor. I was probably getting 7hp out of
it at the time by overloading it. Voltage sag was
large as I was using old 12vdc Dynasty Gel batts and
6gge wire. 40vdc and 150 amps at the motor/6kw.
     So that's another proof I can do what I say with
the Freedom EV which should have 1/3 less drag than
the E woody easily.

> about 60 mph.  Power
> (and energy required) go up as the square of the
> speed. So even your
> e-woody would take roughly twice that at 60 mph,
> which works out to around
> 10kw/hour.  I'd suspect it might even take a bit
> more than that.  Hook up

     Didn't prove out that way. See above. But the
45mph was from the plug and the 60 mph was from the
motor terminals close where the gen would be hooked to
thru the controller which is 95% eff?.

> an E-meter and check how much power it draws at
> 60mph on flat ground
> without wind and let us know.

    Amp/volt meter 2 ways twice without wind on a flat
Fla road. 6kw or about 7hp on the overloaded motor.
Just what EV of America spreadsheet predicted.

>
> >      So I expect that my new optimized composite
> > Freedom EV with a CD of about .24, low resistance
> > tires, PWM controller, 1,300lb, 2 more eff motors
> > series/parallel with a higher gear ratio to do
> about
> > 100wthr/mile at 60mph which isn't that hard as you
> are
> > going 33% more miles.
>
> Color me skeptical, I'll believe it when I see it.

     No problem, in a few months it will be ready.

>
> >      Also I'm not the only person getting this low
> > power level as John Bryan? gets the same in his VW
> > Ghia at a fair more weight, slightly worse aero
> though
> > slightly lower frontal area.
>
> Looking at your prototype and John's Ghia, I'll bet
> you $100 that HE has
> the lower total drag.

    I'd hate to take your money as I've proved it with
the much higher drag E woody. Come down and test one
when you get back.

  Not only does the Ghia look
> like it has a smaller
> frontal area,

    I said it did.

  but I also think it's has a lower Cd.

     Not hardly!! You as many just don't understand
aerodynamics it seems. Go read some airplane drag
studies amoung other sources. For instance the middle,
rear, wheelwells are much more important than the
front!!!
     While the Ghia is better than many cars, that's
not saying much.
     If you look closely at the EV1, the Honda Insight
and the Selectria Sunrise, you will see much more of
the Freedom EV in it than the Ghia or any other car.
They all have Kammbacks, wheelwell treatments, low
parasitic drag and smooth bottoms.


> I'll grant you that your fiberglass body looks like
> it has a lower Cd than
> the E-woody, but I think your .24 figure is more
> than a little optimistic.

    My success in very fast sailboats going to windward
says differently. Aerodynamics does not follow what
most people think is aero. Use yarn and smoke and you
can find a lot of interesting things.



>
> >       For your bloated EV conversions, then yes,
> you
> > will need more as I've always said, about
> > 5-7kw/1,000lbs of EV depending on it's eff.
>
> I agree that lighter more aero EVs are defintely
> desireable (and doable).

    And cheaper, more eff, cost effective.


>
> And you are definitely winning kudos for
> lightweight.  I just don't buy
> your guestimates on Cd, but it looks like you are
> getting closer to
> proving it one way or the other.

     Yes, we'll see soon. But as I've already done most
of this with the E woody, I'm not worried. I could be
30% off and still beat the pants off of everything
else out there including the EV1 in total drag!!
     But unless I could really do something a lot
better, I just leave it to the drones that are happy
with a 1% improvement. I like to go for leaps, not
baby steps. Though that seems to bother many people.
But they have always said  I can't do things I do. I'm
use to it now.


>
> >>
> >> My pickup (far from efficient) uses approx 15kw
> at
> >> 60 mph on flat ground.
> >> Figure a bit more in the hills (lots more going
> up,
> >> zero kw coming down,
> >
> >    MOL even's out.
>
> Not quite, you loose more energy going up than you
> can regain going down,
> simple physics (mm, 2nd law of thermodynamics?)

      I agree and what I meant.

>
> >
> >> possibly regen if your vehicle has it).  A
> >> reasonably efficient, full size
> >> EV could easily average 15-20 kw/h at 60 mph.
> >
> >    An overweight lead mine maybe!!
>
> Well I did say "full size" and "easily".  Besides
> extrapolations on the
> data you've presented for your e-woody indicate that
> it's not that much
> better at 60mph.

     Except at 1/3 or so the power needed in the
Freedom EV!!! ;-))


> The vast majority of people in the US will NOT build
> their own vehicle and
> even fewer would be willing to build/drive something
> like the E-woody.

     That's why I'm going into production as they want
them but no one will build them for sale. Which is
fine for me as I don't like direct competition.
Beating each other to death over a nickle is for bean
counters. I go for the big bucks. ;-))


> >
> >     Since you easily get 11-12kw from a gal of gas
> in
> > a DC gen and I get 100wthrs/mile, then what would
> be
> > optimistic?
>
> At 45 mph!  We are talking about highway speeds here
> Jerry.  What does it
> draw at 60 mph? At 75?

     I have only taken the E woody to 60mph so you'll
just have to be satisfied with that for now. And at
6kw to do 60mph, then that is 100wthrs/mile. That's
also the first time I calculated it at 60mph as I
never go that fast anymore in thr E woody, just did it
a couple times as the range with 4 12v gel cells was
short. But I had figured so.

>
> >
> >      Great idea, do you have $45k+?
>
> Actually yes, I have that much sitting in my
> checking account right now.
> Not going to spend it on a prius though.

    Don't blame you as what an EV you could build for
1/2-1/3 of that!!

>
> >      My goal is to bring an affordable EV most
> > everyone can afford, maintain with 70-100 mile
> range,
> > 80mph  for $13k with unlimited hybrid range as an
> > option. I don't see any of you doing it. Why?
> Scared?
>
> Jerry, if you actually bring one to market at that
> price, I might just buy
> one.

     You and many others. I'll only sell to EV'ers for
the first 20 or so as I need people who know what they
are doing for good feedback, improvements before
turning them loose to the public.


>
> >      If you were really into EV's, you would give
> > solutions instead of just saying it can't be done,
> > putting it down. Why don't you be part of the
> solution
> > instead of being the problem?
>
> I just don't think being overly optimistic is a good
> way to solve this
> problem.  I think being realistic is a better way to
> build a bussiness for
> the long term.

     I believe I'm being realistic within my knowledge
base I'm very comfortable with my projections. I've
been mulling this over for 10 yrs so it's not like I
haven't though about it a lot.


> This time next year I'll have enough money saved up

     Those bonuses are nice, arn't they!! I'd never be
able to survive as your bosses and I could never get
along. I think way outside the box! Hell, I can't even
see the box most of the time ;-))

> that I won't have to
> work for a while and can devote a couple years to
> doing nothing but
> working on my ideas.  That's when I'll start

    After an unpleasant experience with our gov I
decided to do that 30 yrs ago and been playing with
stuff ever since. It's a great life but hard for many
to do as no structure at all and that drives many
crazy. But I love it and has allowed me to do many
things others have only dreamed of.

> building my hybrid.
> If yours works out, I'll definitely be picking your
> brains for ideas.
> Especially on molds and so forth.

    As always, be glad to help.

    Better go out and see what the hurricane's blown
away. It did in my 10' high prized Elephant Ear plant
earlier!! But I can prop it back up and it will grow
back upright. Luckily we are only on the fringe of it.
The poor people in the panhandle will get the worst of
it. Ah, life in paradise!!
                  Thanks,
                      Jerry Dycus


>
> Cheers, and good luck.
>
>




____________________________________________________
Sell on Yahoo! Auctions – no fees. Bid on great items.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/

And you still have to compensate for altitude, air density, moisture,
fuel octane...  There's a reason why Honda and others are going to fuel
injection on their motorcycle engines to meet their future emissions
standards...

On Jul 9, 2005, at 12:14 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:

> From: Benteaches@...
> Date: July 9, 2005 11:43:46 AM PDT
> To: ev@...
> Subject: Re: Pollution in small engines,   Re: Rules of thumb for
> engine,      Generat...
>
>
> In a message dated 7/6/2005 2:08:42 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> jerry5335@... writes:
>
> << > >         Hence my suggestions to use a better carb,
>
>>> raise the compression ratio, use an electronic
>>>
>> igntion
>>
>
> It just isnt that simple.
> Raise the compresssion, HC falls a bit, CO remains unchanged and
> NOX shoots
> up.
> Advance the timing, HC goes up a bit, CO doesnt change, NOX shoots up
> Leaner mixture, HC goes up. CO falls, NOX goes up

Why do I feel like this is an ongoing lecture in 1st year engineering?
And just like school, some folks just won't get it, or will just continue to
disagree, so maybe we should drop the complaining about fractional
dimensions in units---or do we really want to begin talking about fractals
here?

BS^n is still BS.

-Myles Twete, Portland

It was 20 or more years ago.  His test car was a Pinto.  At that time after
a careful patent search, he believed that he was first.

He was a physicist and he knew what he was doing.

BoyntonStu


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...] On
Behalf Of Gnat
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 11:14 PM
To: ev@...
Subject: RE: INVENTION ON HOW TO LEAN A CARB ENGINE.

Your friend is a bit late. Thats how the mixture control on some
ultralight aircraft engines work.

Any aircooled aircraft engine monitors cylinder head temps as
well as using exhaust gas temps. Both gauges tell you things about
the mechanical condition of the engine as well as how its running.


Dave

> My friend thought of this idea about 20 years ago.  He modified
> his car and
> it worked.  He monitored cylinder head temp as the leaner mixture
> raised it.
>
> Here's the idea:
>
> A vented carb has 1 atmosphere above the gas in the float bowl.  It is the
> suction caused by the engine vacuum and the 1 atm. Pressure that
> caused the
> gas to be drawn into the cylinder.
>
> All he did was to take a tube to the carb float bowl and connect it to
> engine vacuum.
>
> In between he placed a needle valve.  With the valve closed,
> normal.  As you
> open the valve the pressure differential between the carb float bowl and
> engine vacuum is reduced and the mixture becomes leaner.
>
> BoyntonStu

Getting a glider is the easy part and they can be had for free or
nearly free, or most people already have a vehicle on hand to be
converted..  It's the prices of the motor, controller, charger, and
battery pack that is the stumbling block....

Just as a for-instance, I have this dead Corsica in my back yard...

"Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"

Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <stotts.ryan@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 2:55 PM
Subject: Re: Schmidt glider.


> Getting a glider is the easy part and they can be had for free or
> nearly free, or most people already have a vehicle on hand to be
> converted..  It's the prices of the motor, controller, charger, and
> battery pack that is the stumbling block....
>

Try it with 30 BB600's. I'm using that amount on my E20 here right now,
and they work *GREAT*. 200+amp discharge rates (the max flooring the E20
up a hill with the mower going) and the voltage doesn't sag much. And
I'm getting 40ah out of 30ah batteries.

Make sure you put the batteries in a box mount of some sort. Otherwise
they will swell and that is bad. I use the E20's weight box, which is
just big enough to carry two rows of 15 batteries snugly with a 2*4
running vertical between them to support the shunt and keep some space
between the batteries. Works like a charm.

Speaking of which I wonder if I can just charge these batteries to
32-35ah and not bother with the last bit of charging. Will they slip out
of sync; would cut down on the gassing.

Chris

JCT wrote:
> Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 09:16:02 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Mark Hastings
>
> I put up some pictures of my Tennant Etek mounted up to my craftmans
> tractor. I only had to drill one hole and it's pretty much all good to
> go all lined up and everything with existing holes.
> Charging up the U1 battery did get me some pretty good crawling speed
> considering it is a single 12v U1 battery.
> http://geocities.com/evblazer/SearsCraftsmanTractorConversion/index.html
> I may commision charge 10 or 20 of my BB600's and try them out after I
> repaint the mower deck.
> Mark Hastings

At 11:56 AM 10/07/05 +0100, Evan wrote:
> > made by Ransomes in the UK.
>
>Hi James,
>   Ransomes is a lawnmower / garden machinery company.  I've never
>heard of a Ransomes motor before, so perhaps the one you have is
>rebadged.  What did it come out of, I maybe missed that?

Hi Evan, Jim and all

It came from a forklift - was the traction motor. The manufacturers'
details on the nameplate state "Ransomes DC Motor", "Ransomes Sims &
Jeffries Ltd, Ipswich".

The forklift had already had its' contactor controller and most of the
hydraulics (although I did get the hydraulic pump motor) and anything else
easily removable removed before I got to it, so I'm not even sure who its'
manufacturer was.

I feel the forklift must have been made between 1950 and 1970, either in
the UK and fully imported to Australia, or made in Australia from a
collection of bits brought here from the UK.

I found it in a swampy area of a junk dealers' yard, it had been too hard
to get to so hadn't yet been sent to scrap - the ground had dried out and I
got to it just in time!

Jim, thanks for the response, I'll have to fully think through and have a
bit of a look at the motor some before I reply.

Regards

James

Neon John wrote:

> I have very serious concerns about the amount of overhang on that
> shaft.  I would expect vibration and short bearing life.  If at all
> possible, I'd put a bearing on the far end of the shaft, one way or
> another.  I can't find a spec for the ETEK shaft side loading force
> but I'd bet a burger your setup will exceed it.

It's pretty long, however the 15.5hp gas engines don't seem to suffer
any bearing wear because of it. I recently tore down and rebuilt my (now
dad's) motor because he drove it without oil. Broke the connecting rod,
no damage to the bottom end bearings (10 year old motor, used heavily).

I think having the other end attached to the belt helps. Perhaps the
belt assembly cushions any natural vibration.

> I also suspect that you'll need to regear the ETEK from that of the
> gas engine.  The ETEK is happiest at high voltage, low current; that
> is, high RPM and low torque.  Especially if you keep that shaft setup,
> I'd want to spin the motor as fast as I could to minimize the dynamic
> side loading on the shaft.

Craftsman lawn tractors basically have two engine speeds:

1) Full blast for everything
2) Idle to hear what your wife is shouting

Anything less is pretty much pointless since you can always control
speed with the 6 speed transmission or in this case that hydro frob. The
mower deck doesn't work with anything less than full power, so you
typically go to full, select gear 3 and mow away all day long. Thus my
thought on speed control being just an on/off contactor; what more do
you really need.

On the E20, I pretty much use gear L, speed 4 (full power) for 95
percent of my work. Put in cruise, mow mow mow. Sometimes I will go to D
to drive around, but the low speeds with the resistors are too variable
for normal running around (they come in very handy for tilling, but
that's another issue)

Chris

Question for the flooded people: I have been working with these BB600
cells and they seem to work very well in the Elec-trak. Even under a
200amp discharge rate they maintain voltage and can deliver well over 35
ah (single string, 30 batteries, 30ah rated)

In looking at the density of them, it looks like I can fit 60 of these
in the space taken by four T105 batteries along with a 2*4 spacer
between them. Or each T105 can be replaced by 15 BB600's with some
serious headroom given back. Thus the power density of the BB600's is
about 105ah per unit of T105 space. (I've seen 40ah, but I'll stick with
35.)

Given that a single string of T105's has a 225ah capacity at C20, that's
not too hot. However I know that we don't draw anywhere near C20; it
looks like on a typical conversion of 20 T105's we're pulling around
400amps from the batteries peak, and I don't know what the average is.
And there's that 20% reserve thing. So how many amp hours can you pull
out of a string of T105s under normal driving conditions?

Chris

Hi Chris, Mark and All,
            First I would either put a resistor or
lighter gge wire on it for softening the starting
current which can be very hard if you start full batt
voltage. You can either leave it inline or short it
out for more power. It will help also if you hit
something making the blade stop.
         PM motors are very bad at that. It doesn't
have to be much, just to limit the amps to 300 or so.
Probably just using 6gge wiring will do the job
nicely.

--- Christopher Zach <czach@...> wrote:

> Try it with 30 BB600's. I'm using that amount on my
> E20 here right now,
> and they work *GREAT*. 200+amp discharge rates (the
> max flooring the E20
> up a hill with the mower going) and the voltage
> doesn't sag much. And
> I'm getting 40ah out of 30ah batteries.

     I'd bet 400 amps+ starting peak if you don't use
something to lessen it.


>
> Make sure you put the batteries in a box mount of
> some sort. Otherwise
> they will swell and that is bad. I use the E20's
> weight box, which is
> just big enough to carry two rows of 15 batteries
> snugly with a 2*4
> running vertical between them to support the shunt
> and keep some space
> between the batteries. Works like a charm.
>
> Speaking of which I wonder if I can just charge
> these batteries to
> 32-35ah and not bother with the last bit of
> charging. Will they slip out
> of sync; would cut down on the gassing.

      That's what I do and have done for yrs to lessen
the watering needs on my SAFT ni-cads without problems
as they are over 30yrs old and still put out over
rated power.
      Though for the first few, say 5 charges you
should do full equalizing charges to get them all
working together on new cells or less on ones that
haven't been used in a while.
      Those who have went to E lawn mowing quickly
start to love it  for the quite and reliability. Being
able to cut your lawn at 7AM when it's cool really
helps in the summer.
      Thanks for the info guy's as I want to convert
one soon to show lawn businesses just what EV mowing
can be.
                  Jerry Dycus


>
> Chris
>
> JCT wrote:
> > Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 09:16:02 -0700 (PDT)
> > From: Mark Hastings
> >
> > I put up some pictures of my Tennant Etek mounted
> up to my craftmans
> > tractor. I only had to drill one hole and it's
> pretty much all good to
> > go all lined up and everything with existing
> holes.
> > Charging up the U1 battery did get me some pretty
> good crawling speed
> > considering it is a single 12v U1 battery.
> >
>
http://geocities.com/evblazer/SearsCraftsmanTractorConversion/index.html
> > I may commision charge 10 or 20 of my BB600's and
> try them out after I
> > repaint the mower deck.
> > Mark Hastings
>
>




____________________________________________________
Sell on Yahoo! Auctions – no fees. Bid on great items.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/

The New Beetle won first place today at the local Volksfest 2005.  The car
was a real car pleaser and everyone applauded when the trophy was presented.


(it helps that there were only two entries in the class!)

Don




Victoria, BC, Canada

See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/

You know those little 1/4 hp to 5 hp air cooled AC motors like these?

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=92104

Can these be powered up(110v) and ran with no load without flying
apart?  Or must they be ran with a load on them?

Hi Stu and All,

--- Stu or Jan <stu@...> wrote:

> Let me first state that Jerry has really convinced
> me that a 2F1R is the way
> to go.
>

       It has it's good and bad points.

>
>
> The 2F1R Trihawk design is our starting point.
>
>
>
> Light weight, great handling, aero, efficient.

      It's NOT aero!!! Thus at higher speeds, only
so-so eff. Low frontal area helps but you need an aero
hard top, raked windshield amoung other things if you
want low aero drag.

>
> 72/28 distribution.
>
> What more could you ask for?

     Better aero.
>
> How about this?
>
> Electric front end, engine in rear.

     I'd put both in the rear to save weight, cost,
complication.
     With batts up front for balance, handling.
>
>
>
> A 15-20 Kw setup in front, and a 10 hp rear ICE with
> freewheel.

     If not series gen then I'd use a variable pully
transmission on the ICE and maybe the e motor too. You
could use the VP trans for speed control also instead
of a controller. Riley has this on 2 of his designs.
     If you used a shunt, PM motor on it you could
recharge the batt while driving.

>
>
>
> A commuter car for 25 miles or even lighter if going
> to work and recharging
> there.

     As a lightweight vehicle like this takes so little
batt to go longer distance, get at least 50 mile batt
range in it.

>
> Run out of juice?  Start up your rear engine.
> Wanna drag?  Use both.
>

    You'll need a lot more power than that to beat
anything that isn't dead slow!! Luckily it's both easy
and cheap to get a lot more EV power.

>
>
> The Trihawk is about 1,300 pounds.  I believe that a
> car designed for local
> commuting with occasional max speeds of 65 could be
> made lighter.

      Depends on it's design, materials. In metal
harder, in Wood/epoxy or composites designed right,
much lighter.
                 HTH's,
                    Jerry Dycus

>
>
>
>
>
> BoyntonStu
>
>




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Ryan Stotts wrote:

>You know those little 1/4 hp to 5 hp air cooled AC motors like these?
>
>http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=92104
>
>Can these be powered up(110v) and ran with no load without flying
>apart?  Or must they be ran with a load on them?
>
>
>
At no load they will approach 1800 rpm. The frequency determines the rpm
in these motors, unlike the series motor where RPM has a complicated
relationship to current. In a table saw, for example, there is almost no
load when just spinning a blade so I hope they wouldn't explode!

Cory Cross

Hi David and All,

--- djsharpe <djsharpe@...> wrote:

> Is it possible to suck LPG or CNG etc into the
> intake of an idling CI
> engine so as to then have a combined fuel engine? If
> you think there is
> a likelihood of success I would give it a go with
> one of my CI vehicles
> as an experiment. I know that a straight SI LPG
> engine has much higher
> CR than an engine that can run on petrol or LPG.
> David Sharpe
>

    Works well, just put the LPG, butane or NG carb on
the intake and throttle that for speed control and
idle the diesel for ignition so you are running 90% or
so gas.
    This works with producer gas, ect too. Wastewatts
is a good list for this.
                  HTH's,
                     Jerry Dycus



>




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Jerry,

One way to power a single rear wheel is to use 2 freewheels, one on each
side.

A real light commuter could do with a single sprocket chain drive.  The ICE
could use 2 speeds with a jackshaft and a centrifugal clutch.  A VP  is
quieter but I have no idea of its efficiency, what specific kind are you
thinking of?

The ICE and the motor could be in line fore and aft of the rear wheel.
Engine aft for the exhaust.

The chain sprocket could double as the disk for a caliper brake.  Although
with a 75/25 ratio, a rear brake would not be needed especially with regen
braking.

I only used the Trihawk as a successful 2F1R design starting point, not a
chop conversion.  12" off the road is very dicey.  What are your thoughts on
seat height?

What front end would you choose for steering/suspension/wheel/brake ?

Would you go tubular or rectangular for the frame/roll cage?

The more I study, the better your ideas seem.

I think of a heavy front 2F1R trike (75/25) like an arrow, with the rear
wheel as the feathers.

Thanks again,

Boyntonstu

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...] On
Behalf Of jerry dycus
Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 8:43 PM
To: ev@...
Subject: Re: A Trihawk Hybrid idea.


        Hi Stu and All,

--- Stu or Jan <stu@...> wrote:

> Let me first state that Jerry has really convinced
> me that a 2F1R is the way
> to go.
>

       It has it's good and bad points.

>
>
> The 2F1R Trihawk design is our starting point.
>
>
>
> Light weight, great handling, aero, efficient.

      It's NOT aero!!! Thus at higher speeds, only
so-so eff. Low frontal area helps but you need an aero
hard top, raked windshield amoung other things if you
want low aero drag.

>
> 72/28 distribution.
>
> What more could you ask for?

     Better aero.
>
> How about this?
>
> Electric front end, engine in rear.

     I'd put both in the rear to save weight, cost,
complication.
     With batts up front for balance, handling.
>
>
>
> A 15-20 Kw setup in front, and a 10 hp rear ICE with
> freewheel.

     If not series gen then I'd use a variable pully
transmission on the ICE and maybe the e motor too. You
could use the VP trans for speed control also instead
of a controller. Riley has this on 2 of his designs.
     If you used a shunt, PM motor on it you could
recharge the batt while driving.

>
>
>
> A commuter car for 25 miles or even lighter if going
> to work and recharging
> there.

     As a lightweight vehicle like this takes so little
batt to go longer distance, get at least 50 mile batt
range in it.

>
> Run out of juice?  Start up your rear engine.
> Wanna drag?  Use both.
>

    You'll need a lot more power than that to beat
anything that isn't dead slow!! Luckily it's both easy
and cheap to get a lot more EV power.

>
>
> The Trihawk is about 1,300 pounds.  I believe that a
> car designed for local
> commuting with occasional max speeds of 65 could be
> made lighter.

      Depends on it's design, materials. In metal
harder, in Wood/epoxy or composites designed right,
much lighter.
                 HTH's,
                    Jerry Dycus

>
>
>
>
>
> BoyntonStu
>
>




____________________________________________________
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Hi John and All,

--- Neon John <jgd@...> wrote:

> <evdl@...> wrote:
>
>
> >Looking at your prototype and John's Ghia, I'll bet
> you $100 that HE has
> >the lower total drag.  Not only does the Ghia look
> like it has a smaller
> >frontal area, but I also think it's has a lower Cd.
> >I'll grant you that your fiberglass body looks like
> it has a lower Cd than
> >the E-woody, but I think your .24 figure is more
> than a little optimistic.
> >
> >>       For your bloated EV conversions, then yes,
> you
> >> will need more as I've always said, about
> >> 5-7kw/1,000lbs of EV depending on it's eff.
> >
> >I agree that lighter more aero EVs are defintely
> desireable (and doable).
> >
> >And you are definitely winning kudos for
> lightweight.  I just don't buy
> >your guestimates on Cd, but it looks like you are
> getting closer to
> >proving it one way or the other.


>
> I had that same concern but didn't want to sound
> like I was piling on
> :-)

     You, John, piling it on, never!! ;-))
     On your inverter generator post while it's great
for high voltage EV's of 240vdc and up, it's rather
costly for lower voltages compared to a seperate
better motor like the Robin/Subaru with it's ign
advance, ect emissions wise and with a shunt, PM gen
of the correct size, put out much more power/$.
     Of couse not too bad if you own a PFC 20-50
charger already.

>
> Jerry, why don't you spend some time with a scale
> model in a homemade
> wind tunnel before you go to molds?  I have some

    Too late as the tooling is already at the builder
;-))


> experience in ad-hoc
> wind tunnel testing if you need some help.  There
> are some good
> articles in the SciAm Amateur Scientist CD regarding
> building and
> operating small wind tunnels on a very small budget.

      I'd be interested in that but over the last 25
yrs I have designed many aero/hydrodynamic dependent
vehicles and developed quite a good sense just looking
at something to figure out it's drag compared to other
like vehicles.
    I can see just where and how big the lift,
vortex's are, will be in my mind. So far it's been
very accurate and proved in real life. Not to mentiom
much cheaper, easier ;-))
    Aero is only 2 things, how well the airflow stays
attached converging which equals lift/power and how
much air the vehicle will drag along, diverging
vortex's, with it which equals drag.
     Also I like full size testing as more accurate and
I don't have the math skills to do scaling. It's many
times just as easy, cheap to build full size than
build models and then you still need to build full
size to verify the scale testing.
      How I do it is both smoke and yarn at real
speeds. EV's are nice as drag equals volts x amps
divided by eff!!

>  Or maybe there
> is someone on the list who could get you into a real
> wind tunnel.  Now
> is the time to do it before you spend $$$ on
> tooling.

      Like I said, too late.
      You may have a inflated opinion of just what
composite tooling costs, it's just not that much with
most of the cost in the male mold the production
tooling is made from trather cheaply. I'm doing all
the tooling for the Freedom EV for under $6k as I
supplied almost all the male body mold labor and
building the chassis mold completely!!!
      Now you know why I'm doing this in composites
besides lower weight!!
      And you would be amazed at just how much profit
there is in them at $13k each!! That is of course if
you design them correctly for ease of building,
quality but low cost materials which is where Corbin
really blew it amoung other reasons.
>
>
> >I just don't think being overly optimistic is a
> good way to solve this
> >problem.  I think being realistic is a better way
> to build a bussiness for
> >the long term.
> >This time next year I'll have enough money saved up
> that I won't have to
> >work for a while and can devote a couple years to
> doing nothing but
> >working on my ideas.  That's when I'll start
> building my hybrid.
> >If yours works out, I'll definitely be picking your
> brains for ideas.
> >Especially on molds and so forth.
>
> I strongly second that notion.  IMHO, THE major
> problem EVs have with
> the general public is that they've always promised
> far more than they

    I haven't promised anything. I projected based on
experience. Once I have one done and tested I'll
report the results and sell from that.. Just like I
reported for the E woody.
    Like I said before, these are not for sale yet
until I have one built, won't be, unlike other EV
companies.
    I only talk about it here to learn the few things I
need too and teach others just how easy it is to start
their own EV production businesses.
    I have no plans to be in the businees long, but
instead show the way and get multiple other EV
factories going so they can grow. Then just consult,
design more.
     I have a whole range of EV's, battery dominated
hybrids ranging from aerocabin MC EV's, Van/pickup/SUV
EV's made from the same chassis, frontend to a
Dymaxion style ultra low aero drag RV hybrid just
waiting for a chance to be built.
     As soon as the Freedom EV business is up and
running smoothly and well increased in value, I'll
sell it to those more suited for long term production
as I'm a designer, start up person, not long term
production which is rather boring though just what
investors love and willing to pay dearly for, a going
concern.
     While the EV business as I plan on doing will be
very profitable, it pales compared to some other
things I'm into like my non dam hydro generators and
making gas, diesel, NG from waste biomass.
     Both are fairly mature tech just waiting to be
advanced, put into production, use.


> can deliver.  Why did the GoBig guy have to claim
> the scooter I bought
> would do over 45mph?  It can't turn the wheel fast
> enough for that
> speed sitting on a crate with the wheel
> freewheeling!  An accurate
> claim of 35 to 38 would have still made it the
> fastest production unit
> available....
>
> For a unique change, why not UNDERstate your car's
> capability so that
> reviewers can brag about how much it exceeds specs?

    My projections are both my goals and what I believe
it will do based on facts I know, my experience. To
say otherwise wouldn't be truthful for me.
               HTH's,
                 Jerry Dycus




>
> John
>
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.johngsbbq.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
>
>




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EV Digest 4494

Topics covered in this issue include:

   1) Re: battery temperature measurement
	 by "acid_lead" <acid_lead@...>
   2) Re: Ariana EV's now on sale?
	 by "Gabriel Alarcon" <cienaga@...>
   3) Current limit!!!! Re: Advancing ETEK motors
	 by "acid_lead" <acid_lead@...>
   4) Motor improvements
	 by James Massey <jcmassey@...>
   5) Re: Check this out! ( balance system for full fairing motorcycle)
	 by "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
   6) Re: Motor improvements
	 by Evan Tuer <evan.tuer@...>
   7) RE: INVENTION ON HOW TO LEAN A CARB ENGINE.
	 by Gnat <gnat@...>
   8) Newbie - Need Charging Help
	 by Joel Silverman <jm_silverman@...>
   9) Re: battery temperature measurement
	 by David Murphy <dfm7@...>
  10) DC/DC wiring
	 by TiM M <mr_tim34@...>
  11) Re: State of Charge calculations - Eureka!!!
	 by "Philip Marino" <phil_42277@...>
  12) Hybrid Engine-LPG+Diesel
	 by "djsharpe" <djsharpe@...>
  13) Re: Sears Craftman Conversion - Motor Mounting Pictures
	 by Neon John <jgd@...>
  14) Re: Details !!!!     Re: Engine Generator Question
	 by Neon John <jgd@...>
  15) Re: Martin Staionette.  Three passenger. Three wheel woody.
	 by jerry dycus <jerry5335@...>
  16) Re: Contactor info plus blatant plug
	 by Neon John <jgd@...>
  17) Re: Saturn EV
	 by Ben Apollonio <molain@...>
  18) Schmidt glider.
	 by "Lawrence Rhodes" <bassoon@...>
  19) Re Sears Craftman Conversion - Motor Mounting Pictures
	 by JCT <toujc@...>
  20) Re: Check this out!
	 by Michael Hurley <mephit@...>
  21) Re: Check this out! ( balance system for full fairing motorcycle)
	 by Michael Hurley <mephit@...>
  22) Re: State of Charge calculations
	 by "MT" <soltex@...>
  23) Re: battery temperature measurement
	 by Bob Siebert <eesolar@...>
  24) Re: Engine Generator Question
	 by Neon John <jgd@...>
  25) A Trihawk Hybrid idea.
	 by "Stu or Jan" <stu@...>
  26) RE: TdS Report #74: Runabout Cycles
	 by keith vansickle <keithvansickle01@...>
  27) RE: on Ebay: 2004 Toyota Prius Wrecked Salvage
	 by Cor van de Water <CWater@...>

--- In ev-list-archive@yahoogroups.com, Bob Siebert <ev@l...> wrote:
> Hello:
>
> I'm planning a long series string of Li-Ion batteries and am
> wondering what folks generally do for temperature monitoring and/or
> protection. For the latter I had imagined a bi-metallic temperature
> sensor on each battery (or, perhaps, on a small group if their
> temperature commonality could be designed in). This would work best
> during charging and could simple result in opening the charging
> circuit. For temperature monitoring during discharge, I was
thinking
> about semiconductor sensors on some sort of bus.
>
> Comments are very welcome.
>
> /Bob (eesolar) Siebert

I'm using Pb-acid, so a completely differrent thermal design. But...

A large number of thermostats in series makes for a lot of wiring, and
failure of any one can prevent you from charging. If your battery
layout is symmetrical left/right, you can probably assume at the very
least that the one on the left is the same temp as its twin on the
right. For the non-symmetrical ones, you can either use brute force
and put a sensor on each one, or monitor them for a while to see where
they fit in thermally with the rest of the pack.

You might want to reduce charging amps rather than shut down, since it
may take QUITE a while for the battery temps to fall enough for a
mechanical t'stat to reset.

For temperature monitoring, I will have 2 analog gauges; 1 outside air
temp, and 1 representative batt temp (VDO 397154 "Vision" Series, -10
to 120F). This would only be to gauge whether to turn the battery
heaters on or not. Remember, this is lead so I have a completely
different problem.

During development, I expect to have a thermocouple on 1/2 of the
batteries (+ 2 asymmetrical ones) to see what the temperature profile
and spread actually is. Then I'll know how many heating zones I'll
need. After that, there won't be a need to monitor much of anything.
Though it would be nice to have a warning light come on if a heater or
thermostat fails. Any ideas for that?

-GT

Does anyone know if these EV's are any good?  Anybody test driven one?  They
appear to be taking deposits for EV's.  They have a complete price list and
specs online.

Gabe Alarcon

www.ariana-ev.com<http://www.ariana-ev.com/>

--- In ev-list-archive@yahoogroups.com, "Myles Twete" <ev@l...>
wrote:
[snip]
> Here's a question: which way is it best to blow the air thru the
ETEK?  From
> the brush end or TO the brush end?  With my outboard boat motor
> installation, air flow was initially from top-bottom (i.e. from
the brush
> end down).  Later I changed the airflow direction to blow axially
up thru