EV Digest 5613
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: water powered EV - JK. hydropower
by Danny Miller <dannym@...>
2) Re: Jim Husted did something to my motor
by "Roderick Wilde" <roderick@...>
3) RE: Dragtimes Vote Where were all the Who's?
by "Shawn M. Waggoner \(EVDL\)" <evlist@...>
4) RE: Dragtimes Vote Where were all the Who's?
by "Shawn M. Waggoner \(EVDL\)" <evlist@...>
5) RE: Dragtimes Vote Where were all the Who's?
by Jim Husted <hi_torque_electric@...>
6) RE: e-volks
by "David Sherritze" <sherritze@...>
7) Dump Charger
by "David Sherritze" <sherritze@...>
8) Cent-A-Meter remote charge indicator
by "David Sharpe" <dsh63475@...>
9) Re: Cent-A-Meter remote charge indicator
by "Death to All Spammers" <cowtown@...>
10) Re: Cent-A-Meter remote charge indicator
by "Death to All Spammers" <cowtown@...>
11) RE: gang charger
by Mike Willmon <electrabishi@...>
12) Re: Vectrix
by "Death to All Spammers" <cowtown@...>
13) Re: e-volks
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <primobassoon@...>
14) Bad b
by Danny Miller <dannym@...>
15) RE: Cent-A-Meter remote charge indicator
by "David Sharpe" <dsh63475@...>
16) Re: Fw: air conditioning for ev's
by Danny Miller <dannym@...>
17) Re: gang charger
by "Stefan T. Peters" <stefan@...>
18) RE: Bad b
by "David Sharpe" <dsh63475@...>
19) yet more Re: air conditioning for ev's
by Suhas Malghan <malghs@...>
20) Re: [from the RAV4-EVlist] Researchers say nano capacitors could
displacebatteries
by "EVRIDER" <evride@...>
21) Raptor Controller for sale
by "David Sherritze" <sherritze@...>
22) Raptor Controller for sale
by "David Sherritze" <sherritze@...>
23) Re: Dragtimes Vote Where were all the Who's?
by "Roderick Wilde" <roderick@...>
24) Hummmm Look at this. Anyone "seen" one?
by "EVRIDER" <evride@...>
25) New Bikey NEB
by nikki <nikki@...>
26) Re: air conditioning for ev's
by Jim Walls <k6ccc@...>
Lots of alternative energy sites have water turbines or submersible prop
generators:
http://www.absak.com/catalog/index.php/cPath/33_89
But a turbine requires head pressure, that is, you need to take water
from a higher elevation than the device is located, run through a pipe
and then the device, and discharge it into open air at the lower point.
In truth a simple paddlewheel won't produce a lot of power. The prop
design should work in creek like that, but it's not going to produce
much power unless it's pretty raging or the prop is huge.
I dunno though, maybe a paddlewheel could be scaled pretty high at
modest cost so it would produce a lot of torque. You'd of course run
this through a gearbox to get a more favorable rpm for an electric
generator.
Danny
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
>Hydropower is much more powerful than solar or wind. Give it a shot. My
>uncles did it on their property. Lawrence Rhodes.....
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <BFratto@...>
>To: <ev@...>
>Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 11:57 AM
>Subject: water powered EV - JK. hydropower
>
>
>>Its not what you think; This would be hydro powered recharging
>>
>>My recharge outlet at work will be taken away, because the building it is
>>powerred from is getting demolished. So, I thought of ways to recharge
>>fully off 115 VAC without purchasing another charger or building a Badboy.
>>
>>Then, one day, I was eating dinner next to the creek and thought of
>>
>>
>putting
>
>
>>a water wheel generator in it to recharge my EV. Rancocas Creek which
>>
>>
>runs
>
>
>>into the Delaware River of NJ, PA, DE runs thru our chemical plant.
>>(that's why the plant is here).
>>
>>What would you think of the practicality of mounting a generator connected
>>to paddle wheel on a float that I can anchor to the shore line. How could
>>I figure what amount of energy is available in the flowing creek, if
>>
>>
>enough
>
>
>> <>to get me 5 kwhr or more in 7 hours of work day.
>>
>> depth?, average flow speed during dry and raining days?
>>
>> If possible, then I would truly have a water powered car for half of my
>> commute :)
>>
>> Ben
>>
Lawrence, The torque steer problem was a myth invented by and perpetuated by
mr. rudman. I found the problem over a year ago and told him about it. I had
tried unsuccessfully to strap the suspension down to prevent lift in the
front end. When the front end lifts and the suspension drops the toe in goes
to toe out in the amount of a whopping 1-1/4". It is impossible to go
straight. I believe there are several contributing factors to this. Number
one is that the front end never lifted the suspension much with a front
wheel drive and rabbit four cylinder. Number two, we went to extremely tall
wheels. We went from 13" to 17" rims. A little toe becomes a lot more
further out as the tie rods from the rack drop and pull the spindles inward
at the rear of the axle line producing the toe out condition. I have a new
solution that I believe will work. I am installing an aluminum channel piece
bolted to the frame under the axle line. The bottom of the A arms touch this
via a rubber pad and will not be allowed to drop. The vehicle will not be
able to lift in the front now because it will be lifting the weight of the
entire vehicle, not just the suspension travel. This will plant the front
tires better for increased traction. Just my theory. The proof is in the
time slip, not the keyboard :-)
Roderick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <primobassoon@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 8:24 PM
Subject: Re: Jim Husted did something to my motor
> It's amazing with all that weight and they just keep spinning. I watched
> the Wrightspeed X1 take off with amazing performance. I'm sure their pack
> has about the same energy potential but in a vehicle half the weight. I
> hope you guys get GP saddled up proper. All that potential has got to
> have
> some place to put the hp rather than spinnin it. Maybe the mass is
> causing
> the wheel spin & torque steer. If a lighter pack was used like hawkers &
> a
> little experimentation with weight distribution you might do better. I'll
> bet some Hawkers like Wayland has would lower the weight and still pump
> out
> the amps. You might grab better and have the ability to take off. Seems
> like a physics problem to me. Too much power and too much weight. But
> what
> do I know. LR.....
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rich Rudman" <rmanzan@...>
> To: <ev@...>
> Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 9:50 AM
> Subject: Re: Jim Husted did something to my motor
>
>
>> Yes Lawrence
>> Gone Postal has a Curbwatt medalion on the back motor cover.
>>
>> Put out the amps???? the 40 batteries are good(maybe were good) for 2000
>> amps a string. Making amps is NOT GPs weak point.
>>
>> Right now it's keep hard to keep it off the telephone poles and on the
> track
>> pointed were you want to go. The last couple of times Rod drove it hard,
> he
>> torque steared off the track.
>> This was a smoking tire kind of torque stear... if they are spinning
> hard...
>> Well it's kinda hard to stear.
>>
>> I hear the clutch is toast on the front drive after Jim has his way with
> the
>> front motor....
>> Oh wonderfull succes.. fix one thing break another....
>>
>>
>> Madman
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <primobassoon@...>
>> To: <ev@...>
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 11:26 PM
>> Subject: Re: Jim Husted did something to my motor
>>
>>
>> > Is Gone Postal a Curbwatt? I just got done working on one and they are
>> all
>> > aluminium. You'd think they wouldn't weigh much more than the Rabbit
> that
>> > they used all the suspension parts from. Sure can carry a lot of
> weight.
>> > It was set up for at least 96v of golfcart batteries. I wonder what
> GP'd
>> do
>> > with a lighter pack that could put out the amps. I'd be one nuts
> machine.
>> > Already is. LR>>>>>>>>>>
>> >
>> >
>> > > Yo Dude!!
>> > > Wayland's Ricer Tin Can don't weigh 5000 lbs !!!
>> > >
>> > > The Gone Postal with 40 40 lbs batteries....needs all the help it can
>> get,
>> > > and 5 gears and series parallel are all we can find without buying a
>> > couple
>> > > of Ford 9 inch rear ends.
>> > >
>> > > So... Direct drive is not a good idea, We need the fronts to get us
>> > moving..
>> > > then we let the S/P rears suck some watts, and warp 1 comes by in a
>> hurry.
>> > >
>> > > God Rod don't break it!!! please!
>> > >
>> > > Madman
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <primobassoon@...>
>> > > To: <ev@...>
>> > > Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 7:31 PM
>> > > Subject: Re: Jim Husted did something to my motor
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > > Maybe the answer is direct drive. I don't see Wayland burnin up no
>> > > > clutches.......LR..........
>> > > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > > From: "Roderick Wilde" <roderick@...>
>> > > > To: <ev@...>
>> > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 2:49 PM
>> > > > Subject: Jim Husted did something to my motor
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > > I recently had Jim Husted do a com for me and an experimental
>> brush
>> > > > > rigging set up. I have only had the motor back in "Gone Postal"
> for
>> a
>> > > very
>> > > > > short time. It hasn't even been to the track yet but today I had
> to
>> > take
>> > > > the
>> > > > > motor back out. The only person I can think of to blame for my
>> > troubles
>> > > is
>> > > > > Jim Husted. Everything was fine until he worked on my motor.
>> > > > > We are running a Centerforce clutch and pressure plate with a
>> > Corrado
>> > > > G60
>> > > > > flywheel. We have never had any trouble with it whatsoever. We
> have
>> > > raced
>> > > > > it, we have run front drive only and rear drive only. We have
>> > > > > even
>> > > > submitted
>> > > > > it to the Madman's foot.and still no problems. Now when I nail it
> up
>> > to
>> > > > 1800
>> > > > > amps on the front motor the clutch whirs right up without much
>> > > > acceleration.
>> > > > > We pulled the motor and sure enough, the smell was not the
>> > > > > brushes
>> but
>> > > the
>> > > > > clutch material burning. We checked and the clutch linkage is
> fine.
>> > Yep,
>> > > > > it's all Jim's fault for giving me too much torque :-) We have
> found
>> a
>> > > > > solution. Now to get the big bucks for a full on racing pressure
>> plate
>> > > and
>> > > > a
>> > > > > three puck disc from Clutch Net, www.clutchnet.com
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Roderick Wilde
>> > > > > "Suck Amps EV Racing"
>> > > > > www.suckamps.com
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > --
>> > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message.
>> > > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> > > > > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.5/377 - Release Date:
>> > 6/27/2006
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.7/379 - Release Date: 6/29/2006
>
>
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.7/379 - Release Date: 6/29/2006
Dude, I think somehow your prayers just got answered...not sure how, but
take a look: http://www.dragtimes.com/
There it is on the front page, Joule Injected!!!
One very happy,
Shawn Wagoner
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...] On
Behalf Of Jim Husted
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 11:16 PM
To: ev@...
Subject: Dragtimes Vote Where were all the Who's?
Hey all
You know, I was so hoping, as I'm sure John was, for a real Horton and the
Who's moment, with all the Whos casting their "we are here" chant. As of
this writing Matt received 80 votes. Now you all know me, I steer clear of
flame wars, I try to remain middle course and as un-biased as I can. I
found it surprising that a lot of people I met in Joliet associated me with
racing. Actually I'm running 60% daily to 40% race stuff, actually 90%
forklift 6% and 4%. So the majority of my stuff moves very slow to average
speeds. I'm also very open that I'm not even an EV'er yet, but I do get to
live vicariously through you guys. So hopefully without pissing anyone off,
I wanted to share some thoughts on how I see stuff, that is if anyone's even
reading this far 8^ P
I've had the pleasure of being an EVDL member for a year now and feel very
much a member of the community here. I wanted to bring to attention that
sometimes, it seems to me, the door doesn't always swing back. What I mean
is, it seems like a lot of racers are there when the call is made to show
for a green day or like this opening of WKTEC stuff and are always active
community wise and then low support is sometimes shown back when they may
need or want it.
I'm really not one to "chaulkboard" but there are those who do, either way
it's human nature that if a door only swings one way the door usually stops
swinging. It's also human nature to want a pat on the back or maybe EVen 30
days of fame once in a while 8^ ) One could say that it's a stupid vote, or
they aren't into racing, and yes I know it's a holiday weekend, but for what
ever reason, support was not given.
I like to think of the race guys as God's green solders. Rod is kind of
like John the Baptist, eating locusts and hunny, screaming in the wilderness
for all to repent, lmao. Wayland, eat's, breathes, and sleeps EV. Matt and
I talk often, I consider him a friend and I know how hard he preaches the EV
gosspel. Heck he just wrote a program and tossed it out to you guys so he
does a lot for the community. Now I doubt Matt's heart crushed or anything
but as a friend I wanted him to win.
I guess I just wanted to say that sometimes it is the little things that
count.
I guess the only thing left to say is...
YIP
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
For those to young to know who Horton and the Who's are, kindly disregard
this posting 8^ P
peace!
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
OK, as quickly as it came...it's gone again...
Honestly, Joule Injected was there for a few minutes! Next month!
Not so very happy,
Shawn
-----Original Message-----
From: Shawn M. Waggoner (EVDL) [mailto:evlist@...]
Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 12:07 AM
To: 'ev@...'
Subject: RE: Dragtimes Vote Where were all the Who's?
Dude, I think somehow your prayers just got answered...not sure how, but
take a look: http://www.dragtimes.com/
There it is on the front page, Joule Injected!!!
One very happy,
Shawn Wagoner
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...] On
Behalf Of Jim Husted
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 11:16 PM
To: ev@...
Subject: Dragtimes Vote Where were all the Who's?
Hey all
You know, I was so hoping, as I'm sure John was, for a real Horton and the
Who's moment, with all the Whos casting their "we are here" chant. As of
this writing Matt received 80 votes. Now you all know me, I steer clear of
flame wars, I try to remain middle course and as un-biased as I can. I
found it surprising that a lot of people I met in Joliet associated me with
racing. Actually I'm running 60% daily to 40% race stuff, actually 90%
forklift 6% and 4%. So the majority of my stuff moves very slow to average
speeds. I'm also very open that I'm not even an EV'er yet, but I do get to
live vicariously through you guys. So hopefully without pissing anyone off,
I wanted to share some thoughts on how I see stuff, that is if anyone's even
reading this far 8^ P
I've had the pleasure of being an EVDL member for a year now and feel very
much a member of the community here. I wanted to bring to attention that
sometimes, it seems to me, the door doesn't always swing back. What I mean
is, it seems like a lot of racers are there when the call is made to show
for a green day or like this opening of WKTEC stuff and are always active
community wise and then low support is sometimes shown back when they may
need or want it.
I'm really not one to "chaulkboard" but there are those who do, either way
it's human nature that if a door only swings one way the door usually stops
swinging. It's also human nature to want a pat on the back or maybe EVen 30
days of fame once in a while 8^ ) One could say that it's a stupid vote, or
they aren't into racing, and yes I know it's a holiday weekend, but for what
ever reason, support was not given.
I like to think of the race guys as God's green solders. Rod is kind of
like John the Baptist, eating locusts and hunny, screaming in the wilderness
for all to repent, lmao. Wayland, eat's, breathes, and sleeps EV. Matt and
I talk often, I consider him a friend and I know how hard he preaches the EV
gosspel. Heck he just wrote a program and tossed it out to you guys so he
does a lot for the community. Now I doubt Matt's heart crushed or anything
but as a friend I wanted him to win.
I guess I just wanted to say that sometimes it is the little things that
count.
I guess the only thing left to say is...
YIP
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
For those to young to know who Horton and the Who's are, kindly disregard
this posting 8^ P
peace!
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
Hey Shawn
I saw it to. I went there cause I kew it was time and Matts car was there.
Cya
Jim
We almost willed it there hehe
"Shawn M. Waggoner (EVDL)" <evlist@...> wrote:
OK, as quickly as it came...it's gone again...
Honestly, Joule Injected was there for a few minutes! Next month!
Not so very happy,
Shawn
-----Original Message-----
From: Shawn M. Waggoner (EVDL) [mailto:evlist@...]
Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 12:07 AM
To: 'ev@...'
Subject: RE: Dragtimes Vote Where were all the Who's?
Dude, I think somehow your prayers just got answered...not sure how, but
take a look: http://www.dragtimes.com/
There it is on the front page, Joule Injected!!!
One very happy,
Shawn Wagoner
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...] On
Behalf Of Jim Husted
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 11:16 PM
To: ev@...
Subject: Dragtimes Vote Where were all the Who's?
Hey all
You know, I was so hoping, as I'm sure John was, for a real Horton and the
Who's moment, with all the Whos casting their "we are here" chant. As of
this writing Matt received 80 votes. Now you all know me, I steer clear of
flame wars, I try to remain middle course and as un-biased as I can. I
found it surprising that a lot of people I met in Joliet associated me with
racing. Actually I'm running 60% daily to 40% race stuff, actually 90%
forklift 6% and 4%. So the majority of my stuff moves very slow to average
speeds. I'm also very open that I'm not even an EV'er yet, but I do get to
live vicariously through you guys. So hopefully without pissing anyone off,
I wanted to share some thoughts on how I see stuff, that is if anyone's even
reading this far 8^ P
I've had the pleasure of being an EVDL member for a year now and feel very
much a member of the community here. I wanted to bring to attention that
sometimes, it seems to me, the door doesn't always swing back. What I mean
is, it seems like a lot of racers are there when the call is made to show
for a green day or like this opening of WKTEC stuff and are always active
community wise and then low support is sometimes shown back when they may
need or want it.
I'm really not one to "chaulkboard" but there are those who do, either way
it's human nature that if a door only swings one way the door usually stops
swinging. It's also human nature to want a pat on the back or maybe EVen 30
days of fame once in a while 8^ ) One could say that it's a stupid vote, or
they aren't into racing, and yes I know it's a holiday weekend, but for what
ever reason, support was not given.
I like to think of the race guys as God's green solders. Rod is kind of
like John the Baptist, eating locusts and hunny, screaming in the wilderness
for all to repent, lmao. Wayland, eat's, breathes, and sleeps EV. Matt and
I talk often, I consider him a friend and I know how hard he preaches the EV
gosspel. Heck he just wrote a program and tossed it out to you guys so he
does a lot for the community. Now I doubt Matt's heart crushed or anything
but as a friend I wanted him to win.
I guess I just wanted to say that sometimes it is the little things that
count.
I guess the only thing left to say is...
YIP
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
For those to young to know who Horton and the Who's are, kindly disregard
this posting 8^ P
peace!
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
---------------------------------
Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates
starting at 1¢/min.
I have what I believe is an original Myers Manx on a 59 VW pan with 1965
front end and transaxle. The engine is a 1600 Dual port which has long
since seen better days. I intend to pull it and remove the flywheel and
clutch if it is salvageable. Will probably lighten the flywheel in a future
project. I can salvage the rest of the engine thru a local VW club. It was
originally a Blue metal flake and has been painted several times. It is
currently a medium Pink, which my 15 year old daughter is very insistent
that it stays Pink when repainted. My 13 year old son wants Yellow or Orange
(Electric colors).
I want to keep the vehicle simple and light for performance and range around
town. Must have seating for 4. This might make battery placement a
challenge. Town is about 6 miles end to end and my work is about 8-9 miles
one way. So I should be able to go any where locally in it. It is about 8
miles to the beach we frequent. Speed limits on local roads are most 35 and
45 MPH.
For now I just want to get it running for around town, I can worry about the
cosmetics later. Better to have an ugly running vehicle than a pretty
non-running one. And we all know no project is ever finished, always some
other improvement
Hopefully I have realistic expectations.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
Behalf Of Mbachandz@...
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 6:21 PM
To: ev@...
Subject: Re: e-volks
David,
What Dune Buggy body have you selected for your project?
- Mike B.
DEVC
Has anyone used or built a dump charger.
I have heard of EV racers doing this.
I have a 72 volt EV that I drive to work. When I get home I have used
about 30% of power (70% DoD). However from here on, the rate of
discharge goes down exponentially.
I have been thinking about a dump charger that would build up charge
all day and that would recharge the EV quickly when I get home. This
would allow me to run my evening errands and then let both the EV and
dump charger charge overnight.
But I have no idea how to do this or if it is even probable.
Ideas?
I use the above device to tell me how the battery charging is advancing. It
is an Australian designed device. It uses radio to deliver basically one
channel of instantaneous data but cannot give time based info. So no kWhrs,
only kWs. You can use it for other AC applilications too. It works up to
30m from the transmitter. View at www.centameter.com.au They may be
available in the US. David Sharpe
> I use the above device to tell me how the battery charging is
advancing. It
> is an Australian designed device. It uses radio to deliver basically one
> channel of instantaneous data but cannot give time based info. So no
kWhrs,
> only kWs. You can use it for other AC applilications too. It works
up to
> 30m from the transmitter. View at www.centameter.com.au They may be
> available in the US. David Sharpe
>
The US site is cenergies.com - lists for $180.
> I use the above device to tell me how the battery charging is
advancing. It
> is an Australian designed device. It uses radio to deliver basically one
> channel of instantaneous data but cannot give time based info. So no
kWhrs,
> only kWs. You can use it for other AC applilications too. It works
up to
> 30m from the transmitter. View at www.centameter.com.au They may be
> available in the US. David Sharpe
>
Here's a cummulative kwh-meter for less, but then you don't get any
instantaneous data:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170003127395
This might be a silly question but can you actually connect these 10 port
chargers in series, which is what you would be doing if
you hooked one to each battery in a series connected string. Are all the ports
isolated from each other? If not this won't work
unless you disconnect all the batteries before slapping the charger on.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
> Behalf Of Matthew Milliron
> Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 5:39 PM
> To: ev@...
> Subject: gang charger
>
>
>
>
> I have made the decision to make a gang-charger. Walmart had
> Schumaker 12/8/2 Speed chargers for less than $40.
> I plan to make something like this:
> http://www.batterymart.com/battery.mv?p=DEL-021-0134
>
> These are isolated and have a 12/8/2 amp charge profile with
> anti-sulfation settings.
> http://www.batterychargers.com/itemlist.cfm?cid=2
>
> I plan to take the 3phase out of the car and use these as an
> opportunity charger.
>
> Wadda ya think?
>
>
>
> Matt Milliron
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/702
> My daughter named it, "Pikachu". It's yellow and black,
> electric and contains Japanese parts, so I went with it.
>
>
> > 100 kph 100 km range according to flyer. No price yet. All electric.
> >
>
> I was asked today if I would pay 10 grand.
>
Is there a limit to how long they can keep our collective breaths
baited before we die or loose interest? So far, it's >5yrs...I'll just
keep waiting.
Ain't happening in a Dune Buggy. Bad aerodynamics. If you took it slow
maybe. LR>..........
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Sherritze" <sherritze@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 12:39 PM
Subject: RE: e-volks
> Are you running a controller or the micro-switch set up?
>
> How far discharged (DoD) are you at the 25 mile range?
>
> What type of vehicle are you using the kit in?
>
> I am hoping to hit 45 to 50 MPH with range of 30 to 35 miles with no more
> than 50 % Depth of Discharge using Lead Acid Batteries in Fiber glass dune
> buggy on a Volts-wagon frame
>
> Thanks
>
> David
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
> Behalf Of jmygann
> Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 2:30 PM
> To: Jack Murray
> Subject: Re: e-volks
>
>
>
> At 48 volts ... 45mph top speed
>
> Range up to 25 miles
>
> --- In ev-list-archive@yahoogroups.com, Jack Murray <ev@...> wrote:
> >
> > what kind of performance do you get with the motor?
> >
> > jmygann wrote:
> > > I have an e-volks kit ..... If I can be of any assistance let
> me know
> > >
> > > Jimmy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
The centometer transmits the data by radio. This ebay one appears to be
fixed.
David
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...] On
Behalf Of Death to All Spammers
Sent: Saturday, 1 July 2006 3:59 PM
To: ev@...
Subject: Re: Cent-A-Meter remote charge indicator
> I use the above device to tell me how the battery charging is
advancing. It
> is an Australian designed device. It uses radio to deliver basically one
> channel of instantaneous data but cannot give time based info. So no
kWhrs,
> only kWs. You can use it for other AC applilications too. It works
up to
> 30m from the transmitter. View at www.centameter.com.au They may be
> available in the US. David Sharpe
>
Here's a cummulative kwh-meter for less, but then you don't get any
instantaneous data:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170003127395
10 is not even close.
http://www.melcor.com/maa150sp.html
A similar device, moves 44W, very well specified for a real-world
application. Very well designed heat/cold sinks.
OK, so it's 100F outside and you want it to be 72F inside. Let's say
that's going to be 10,000 BTU, although that seems to be a conservative
estimate. I suspect 10k BTU that may be somewhat anemic, 20k BTU might
be more realistic.
At that temp differential, that devices moves 115BTU. You would need 87
devices for even the 10,000 BTU case. This would take 3.828 KW! A
10,000 BTU window unit A/C only pulls about 1 KW. OK, I don't know what
temp differential that BTU rating is for with the window unit, but be
sure it's way different.
Water cooling will be a bit better than the Melcor specs, but it's not
going to fundamentally change the situation. In fact water-cooled
heatsinks are already a given because it's completely impractical to
route such a huge volume of air across 87 big sinks under the dash. The
other part of the picture is just how much water flow would be required
to remove over 3KW from the Peltiers, and the radiator would have to be
very large to bring water heated by 3KW back down to near ambient.
Danny
Jack Murray wrote:
> they are inefficient that is for sure, certainly if AC system is
> already there drive it with aux motor. but how about doing the TEC
> water cooling, you can "precharge" it by dumping in a bucket of ice in
> the water before you leave. better perhaps one can fashion the
> limited cold air directed to the driver, then it will FEEL a lot colder,
> and the entire car interior space doesn't need to be cooled down.
> in fact, as you may know, just putting cold on the back of your neck
> makes a significant effect in how warm you feel.
> Jack
>
> Michaela Merz wrote:
>
>> Just wanted to chime in again: I tried a 2000 BTU compressor unit and
>> the
>> cooling was almost not noticeable. So - you're going to need a lot of
>> TECs
>> to get any cooling effect at all.
>>
>> Michaela
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Another source for modules (surplus)
>>> http://www.mpja.com/listitems.asp?dept=60 I am going to end up making a
>>> custom waterblock (or salvage one off of something else) and mount
>>> the TEC
>>> and the cold side heatsinks up in the stock airbox. Then run the hot
>>> side
>>> coolent lines out the holes where the AC lines ran and hook it up to a
>>> small
>>> pump, radiator and fan. Not exactly sure on size but hopeing that the
>>> stock
>>> heater core will work else I have the factory radiator still and can
>>> get
>>> it
>>> involved as well.
>>>
>>> Later,
>>> Wire
>>
Mike Willmon wrote:
> This might be a silly question but can you actually connect these 10 port
chargers in series, which is what you would be doing if
> you hooked one to each battery in a series connected string.
>
But then you wouldn't have the benefit of keeping your batteries
balanced ;-)
Mathew, here is someone currently "ganging" up on their charging, FYI...
http://www.knology.net/~gdion/EVPorsche/chargers.html
~ Peanut Gallery ~
This "charger" is going to have abysmal efficiency. It uses basic principals
so should not be patentable. It may be dangerous as well. David
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...] On
Behalf Of Danny Miller
Sent: Saturday, 1 July 2006 5:02 PM
To: ev@...
Subject: Bad b
This guy is actually patenting the "bad boy" charger as a new
invention. Guess you all are gonna owe royalties:
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/local/states/florida/counties/miam
i-dade/cities_neighborhoods/pinecrest/14731378.htm
Danny
It's probably undersized, but I'm really interested in the Stirling
compressor used in this Coleman cooler.
http://www.coleman.com/coleman/colemancom/detail.asp?product_id=5726
-750&categoryid=8595
It uses only helium gas as the working fluid and sailboat people love
it because it uses so little energy that it can run off of a small
solar panel. I would like to put a/c in my MR2, but using a
conventional system with even the most "environmentally friendly"
refrigerant just seems like a case of less bad rather than more good.
Come fall I'm going to get one of these and figure out how to adapt it.
I found the charger plug HERE:
http://www.educationuk.org/uk_culture_guide/images/art.jpg
EVRIDER
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Perry
To: ev@...
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 6:29 PM
Subject: Re: [from the RAV4-EVlist] Researchers say nano capacitors could
displacebatteries
Interesting. I'm trying to picture what size of outlet it'd take to charge
an EV in 5 minutes.
Even if it only had a 50 mile range, that could be handy... but I'd be
standing clear during charging, just in case. <g> There are a lot of
household uses where those could be extremely useful.
----- Original Message -----
From: "EVRIDER" <evride@...>
To: "EV Discussion ListProc" <ev@...>
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 2:53 PM
Subject: Fw: [from the RAV4-EVlist] Researchers say nano capacitors could
displacebatteries
> WOW,
> EVRIDER....
> Would that they were available now.....
>
> ************************
> Article URL:
http://www.smalltimes.com/document_display.cfm?document_id=11739
>
> Researchers say nano capacitors could displace batteries
> By Hiawatha Bray
> The Boston Globe
> June 28, 2006 -
>
> Scientists at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology think they're on
the verge of making traditional batteries obsolete. The researchers are
working on a new device that uses carbon nanotubes to store and release
electrical energy in a system that could carry as much power as today's lead
or lithium batteries. But unlike the rechargeable batteries used on today's
cellphones and laptop computers, these devices could be recharged hundreds
of thousands of times before wearing out. And instead of taking hours to
recharge, they could be powered up in about the same time it takes to fill
up a gas tank.
While looking on ebay I saw a Raptor 600 DC Controller for sale.
I have no ties to this sale but looks good for someone working on a
project.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Raptor-600-DC-Motor-
Controller_W0QQitemZ260002934707QQihZ016QQcategoryZ42924QQssPageNameZWD
VWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
While looking on ebay I saw a Raptor 600 DC Controller for sale.
I have no ties to this sale but looks good for someone working on a
project.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Raptor-600-DC-Motor-
Controller_W0QQitemZ260002934707QQihZ016QQcategoryZ42924QQssPageNameZWD
VWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Cheer up Shawn, look on the bright side. Matt gets to be the number one car
again for a month. This means even more exposure for EVs. We have had EVs
now for several months in the top positions. Once you are car of the month
you are gone off the radar. I'm sure Matt will make it next month.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Shawn M. Waggoner (EVDL)" <evlist@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 9:08 PM
Subject: RE: Dragtimes Vote Where were all the Who's?
> OK, as quickly as it came...it's gone again...
>
> Honestly, Joule Injected was there for a few minutes! Next month!
>
> Not so very happy,
>
> Shawn
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shawn M. Waggoner (EVDL) [mailto:evlist@...]
> Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 12:07 AM
> To: 'ev@...'
> Subject: RE: Dragtimes Vote Where were all the Who's?
>
> Dude, I think somehow your prayers just got answered...not sure how, but
> take a look: http://www.dragtimes.com/
>
> There it is on the front page, Joule Injected!!!
>
> One very happy,
> Shawn Wagoner
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...] On
> Behalf Of Jim Husted
> Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 11:16 PM
> To: ev@...
> Subject: Dragtimes Vote Where were all the Who's?
>
> Hey all
>
> You know, I was so hoping, as I'm sure John was, for a real Horton and
> the
> Who's moment, with all the Whos casting their "we are here" chant. As of
> this writing Matt received 80 votes. Now you all know me, I steer clear
> of
> flame wars, I try to remain middle course and as un-biased as I can. I
> found it surprising that a lot of people I met in Joliet associated me
> with
> racing. Actually I'm running 60% daily to 40% race stuff, actually 90%
> forklift 6% and 4%. So the majority of my stuff moves very slow to
> average
> speeds. I'm also very open that I'm not even an EV'er yet, but I do get
> to
> live vicariously through you guys. So hopefully without pissing anyone
> off,
> I wanted to share some thoughts on how I see stuff, that is if anyone's
> even
> reading this far 8^ P
>
> I've had the pleasure of being an EVDL member for a year now and feel
> very
> much a member of the community here. I wanted to bring to attention that
> sometimes, it seems to me, the door doesn't always swing back. What I
> mean
> is, it seems like a lot of racers are there when the call is made to show
> for a green day or like this opening of WKTEC stuff and are always active
> community wise and then low support is sometimes shown back when they may
> need or want it.
>
> I'm really not one to "chaulkboard" but there are those who do, either
> way
> it's human nature that if a door only swings one way the door usually
> stops
> swinging. It's also human nature to want a pat on the back or maybe EVen
> 30
> days of fame once in a while 8^ ) One could say that it's a stupid vote,
> or
> they aren't into racing, and yes I know it's a holiday weekend, but for
> what
> ever reason, support was not given.
>
> I like to think of the race guys as God's green solders. Rod is kind of
> like John the Baptist, eating locusts and hunny, screaming in the
> wilderness
> for all to repent, lmao. Wayland, eat's, breathes, and sleeps EV. Matt
> and
> I talk often, I consider him a friend and I know how hard he preaches the
> EV
> gosspel. Heck he just wrote a program and tossed it out to you guys so he
> does a lot for the community. Now I doubt Matt's heart crushed or
> anything
> but as a friend I wanted him to win.
> I guess I just wanted to say that sometimes it is the little things that
> count.
> I guess the only thing left to say is...
> YIP
> Jim Husted
> Hi-Torque Electric
> For those to young to know who Horton and the Who's are, kindly disregard
> this posting 8^ P
> peace!
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.7/379 - Release Date: 6/29/2006
>
>
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.7/379 - Release Date: 6/29/2006
Hi folks,
Just brought a Sakura S200 hybrid pedalec Electric scooter. What fun!
Does about 20 miles on it's 36v 14AH Deep discharge Gell Lead Acids,
and while it isn't the best up hill (you sometimes have to give it a
hand with the pedals) it is certainly great around crowded Bristol, UK!
Sadly due to UK regs it's limited in speed in it's electric mode but
I've had a little tinker to see where everything is. The controller
is rather neatly underneath the footwell and the batteries are under
the seat.
Next job is of course seeing what tinkering can be done. I'm sure I
can get another few mph out of this baby (strictly for off-road use
you understand) ;)
Anyone else got something similar which they'd like to share
knowledge about? This isn't classed as an electric moped, more of a
scooter with pedals to enable it to be qualified as a bike.
Nikki
Robert Chew wrote:
> Why not just open the windows! :-)
Not a overly viable option when it's 102 and humid outside!
--
73
-------------------------------------
Jim Walls - K6CCC
k6ccc@...
Ofc: 818-548-4804
http://home.earthlink.net/~k6ccc
AMSAT Member 32537 - WSWSS Member 395
EV Digest 5614
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Dump Charger
by "steve clunn" <steveclunn@...>
2) Re: Bad b
by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
3) Re: Dump Charger
by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
4) Re: Raptor Controller for sale
by coinarian@...
5) Re: e-volks
by "jmygann" <jmygann@...>
6) Re: Jim Husted did something to my motor
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <primobassoon@...>
7) Re: Dragtimes Vote Where were all the Who's?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <primobassoon@...>
8) 220V kwh meter
by cowtown@...
9) Re: yet more Re: air conditioning for ev's
by Danny Miller <dannym@...>
10) Air conditioning gains
by Danny Miller <dannym@...>
11) Re: Hummmm Look at this. Anyone "seen" one?
by "Paul Compton" <paul@...>
12) RE: air conditioning for ev's
by "David Roden" <evpost@...>
13) RE: Dump Charger
by "Roger Stockton" <rstockton@...>
14) RE: gang charger
by Mike Willmon <electrabishi@...>
15) Re: air conditioning for ev's
by Danny Miller <dannym@...>
16) Re: yet more Re: air conditioning for ev's
by Danny Miller <dannym@...>
17) TdS Report #48: Demonstration: Honda FCX Fuel Cell Car
by TdS_Reports@...
18) TdS Report #49: Photos - Honda FCX
by TdS_Reports@...
19) Re: air conditioning for ev's
by Christopher Zach <czach@...>
20) RE: Air conditioning gains
by "Jody Dewey" <jodydewey@...>
21) Re: question about a setup
by Jon Glauser <jon@...>
22) Dead Battery ?
by "Michaela Merz" <misch@...>
23) RE: gang charger
by "Jody Dewey" <jodydewey@...>
24) RE: Dead Battery ?
by "David Sherritze" <sherritze@...>
25) Re: Air conditioning gains
by Danny Miller <dannym@...>
26) Re: Dead Battery ?
by "Roland Wiench" <ev_7@...>
27) Re: Dead Battery ?
by "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
28) RE: Hummmm Look at this. Anyone "seen" one?
by "David Sharpe" <dsh63475@...>
Hi David , I put together my electric lawn mower about 6 months ago , I mow
lawns to support my EV habit and have used a electric truck for that last 10
years to pull the mower/trailer. The mower has excide 8 orbitals 96v which
when charged comes to about 120v , My truck has 40 golf cart batteries, 2
strings of 120 so the voltages work out about right . I set this up so I
could dump charge for the truck. I sometimes cut 10 yards in a day ,
Dumping 8 time . When I plug the mower into the truck , which I do after
every yard the current goes to around 200 amps , mower is charged in about
10 minutes . The current drops to about 20 amp at the end . Without fast
charging I don't know how well the EV mower would have worked for me. Most
yards take between 10 and 20 ah , so I move 100 to 150 ah through the mower
pack a day . I also have a pfc 50 , which I use to charge the truck from
some of my customers houses while cutting their grass. I also charge the
mower with the pfc 50 when I can but this is very slow :-) , when I'm
pumping juice from a customers house , if I'm not mowing I put it into the
mower, to save the golf cart batteries , I've noticed that after a few
charges the voltage sits higher while using . This whole set up has replaced
a very nasty gas engine that used $1 a yard in gas , lots of air cleaners
and required cleaning all the time , along with only lasting a few years and
costing $1200. . While writing This , my wife turned on the dryer , which
popped the barker ( I know shouldn't be sharing a barker , another thing to
do ) and of course it the @#$ electric car , " I got to dry these close,
don't you charge that thing a night" , I said " sorry , I'm charging the
mower now " "Your mowers electric !" really , can you believe it , 6
months and she never noticed , Took me about 5 years to figure she doesn't
want to here it , I think I'm with the program now , I'd write more
about it but as the 4th is almost here and everybody wants there grass cut ,
. The mower can be seen on www.grassrootsev.com and somday in the ev album
.
Steve Clunn who dosn't know how to spell close ( the one's you wear) and
spell checker won't help
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Sherritze" <sherritze@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 12:57 AM
Subject: Dump Charger
> Has anyone used or built a dump charger.
>
> I have heard of EV racers doing this.
>
> I have a 72 volt EV that I drive to work. When I get home I have used
> about 30% of power (70% DoD). However from here on, the rate of
> discharge goes down exponentially.
>
> I have been thinking about a dump charger that would build up charge
> all day and that would recharge the EV quickly when I get home. This
> would allow me to run my evening errands and then let both the EV and
> dump charger charge overnight.
>
> But I have no idea how to do this or if it is even probable.
>
> Ideas?
>
>
>
>
Danny Miller wrote:
> This guy is actually patenting the "bad boy" charger as a new
> invention. Guess you all are gonna owe royalties:
If the patent examiner is on his toes, he'll reject the application for
being obvious or already done. If not, the patent is easy to invalidate
just by showing examples of it being done in public before his filing
date.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
leeahart_@_earthlink.net
David Sherritze wrote:
> Has anyone used or built a dump charger.
I've used them occasionally. Others on the list have a lot of experience
with them, too.
> I have a 72 volt EV that I drive to work. When I get home I have used
> about 30% of power (70% DoD). However from here on, the rate of
> discharge goes down exponentially.
That's normal, and the way it should be. You can charge lead-acid
batteries as fast as you want up to 70-80% SOC. Beyond that, you have to
limit the voltage, which means the current tapers down.
> I have been thinking about a dump charger that would build up
> charge all day and that would recharge the EV quickly when I
> get home. This would allow me to run my evening errands and
> then let both the EV and dump charger charge overnight.
Sure, this is feasible. The basic idea is that you only use the high
current dump charger to get the batteries up to 80% SOC quickly. That's
enough for normal driving. Bring the back up to 100% overnight or
whenever you have the time.
> But I have no idea how to do this or if it is even probable.
The dump pack needs to be about 30% higher voltage. With a 72v pack in
your EV, a 96v dump pack is about right. More than 30% is faster, but
you are at risk from excessively high currents and overcharging. Lower,
and the charging current falls off fast and you may not reach 80% SOC on
the pack being charged.
The dump pack usually has at least twice the amphour capacity of the
batteries being charged. For example, a string of 6v 220ah golf cart
batteries charging a string of 12v 50ah batteries. This way, you have
enough capacity to reach full, and aren't deeply discharging the dump
pack, so they last longer.
If there's nothing between the two packs but switches, wires, and
(hopefully) fuses or circuit breakers, you have to STAND RIGHT THERE
throughout the dump charge process, and manually disconnect it at the
end. Things can go very wrong very fast!
It's better to have some kind of automatic controller. Basically, it
needs to do what any charger does -- limit the maximum current to a safe
level for the batteries, wires, and connectors; and limit the maximum
voltage of the batteries being charged.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
leeahart_@_earthlink.net
Anyone work on these if there is a problem? Last I heard they were out of
production and no more factory support.
David Chapman.
Quoting David Sherritze <sherritze@...>:
> While looking on ebay I saw a Raptor 600 DC Controller for sale.
>
> I have no ties to this sale but looks good for someone working on a
> project.
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Raptor-600-DC-Motor-
> Controller_W0QQitemZ260002934707QQihZ016QQcategoryZ42924QQssPageNameZWD
> VWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------
FastQ Communications
Providing Innovative Internet Solutions Since 1993
Using the Alltrax ontroller ... in a 4 door geo metro
How do I figure the DoD ??
--- In ev-list-archive@yahoogroups.com, "David Sherritze" <ev@...>
wrote:
>
> Are you running a controller or the micro-switch set up?
>
> How far discharged (DoD) are you at the 25 mile range?
>
> What type of vehicle are you using the kit in?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
> Behalf Of jmygann
> Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 2:30 PM
> To: Jack Murray
> Subject: Re: e-volks
>
>
>
> At 48 volts ... 45mph top speed
>
> Range up to 25 miles
>
> --- In ev-list-archive@yahoogroups.com, Jack Murray <ev@> wrote:
> >
> > what kind of performance do you get with the motor?
> >
> > jmygann wrote:
> > > I have an e-volks kit ..... If I can be of any assistance let
> me know
> > >
> > > Jimmy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
This will plant the front tires better for increased traction. Just my
theory. The proof is in the
> time slip, not the keyboard :-)
>
> Roderick
Hope it works to stop the steering problem. Lets also hope the better plant
doesn't agravate the front end torque abundance problem. I have to say that
over the internet drag racing is a very nifty spectator sport. Straight to
the results. Lots of replay of letting the smoke loose. Lawrence
Rhodes.........
Just like cell phone minutes. Looks like the votes carry over. Lets keep a
watch on this and vote every day or so. Lawrence Rhodes.........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Shawn M. Waggoner (EVDL)" <evlist@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 9:06 PM
Subject: RE: Dragtimes Vote Where were all the Who's?
> Dude, I think somehow your prayers just got answered...not sure how, but
> take a look: http://www.dragtimes.com/
>
> There it is on the front page, Joule Injected!!!
>
> One very happy,
> Shawn Wagoner
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...] On
> Behalf Of Jim Husted
> Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 11:16 PM
> To: ev@...
> Subject: Dragtimes Vote Where were all the Who's?
>
> Hey all
>
> You know, I was so hoping, as I'm sure John was, for a real Horton and
the
> Who's moment, with all the Whos casting their "we are here" chant. As of
> this writing Matt received 80 votes. Now you all know me, I steer clear
of
> flame wars, I try to remain middle course and as un-biased as I can. I
> found it surprising that a lot of people I met in Joliet associated me
with
> racing. Actually I'm running 60% daily to 40% race stuff, actually 90%
> forklift 6% and 4%. So the majority of my stuff moves very slow to
average
> speeds. I'm also very open that I'm not even an EV'er yet, but I do get
to
> live vicariously through you guys. So hopefully without pissing anyone
off,
> I wanted to share some thoughts on how I see stuff, that is if anyone's
even
> reading this far 8^ P
>
> I've had the pleasure of being an EVDL member for a year now and feel
very
> much a member of the community here. I wanted to bring to attention that
> sometimes, it seems to me, the door doesn't always swing back. What I
mean
> is, it seems like a lot of racers are there when the call is made to show
> for a green day or like this opening of WKTEC stuff and are always active
> community wise and then low support is sometimes shown back when they may
> need or want it.
>
> I'm really not one to "chaulkboard" but there are those who do, either
way
> it's human nature that if a door only swings one way the door usually
stops
> swinging. It's also human nature to want a pat on the back or maybe EVen
30
> days of fame once in a while 8^ ) One could say that it's a stupid vote,
or
> they aren't into racing, and yes I know it's a holiday weekend, but for
what
> ever reason, support was not given.
>
> I like to think of the race guys as God's green solders. Rod is kind of
> like John the Baptist, eating locusts and hunny, screaming in the
wilderness
> for all to repent, lmao. Wayland, eat's, breathes, and sleeps EV. Matt
and
> I talk often, I consider him a friend and I know how hard he preaches the
EV
> gosspel. Heck he just wrote a program and tossed it out to you guys so he
> does a lot for the community. Now I doubt Matt's heart crushed or
anything
> but as a friend I wanted him to win.
> I guess I just wanted to say that sometimes it is the little things that
> count.
> I guess the only thing left to say is...
> YIP
> Jim Husted
> Hi-Torque Electric
> For those to young to know who Horton and the Who's are, kindly
disregard
> this posting 8^ P
> peace!
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
>
eBay item #330001313345 - looks unenclosed.
Oh wow I'm going to have to look this up.
Well that particular fridge says it uses 48W, though this does not take
into account cycling and no "average watts vs temp" is listed. One page
commenting on it says it uses "only 24 watts". I am unsure if that is a
real figure for a temp or some sort of typo.
This is less efficient than a high end HCFC device. I have a 12v Tundra
fridge that uses the Danfoss compressor which is many times larger. It
uses the same 48W when on but it doesn't cycle on all that much. They
did provide figures somewhere of average power consumption vs temp. But
there's quite a lot of "bias" in that the device's efficiency depends on
how much insulation it has. Make the insulation twice as thick and it
takes about 1/2 the power. The same will not be true of an A/C system
in that the unit itself cannot be made more efficient, though the car
itself can get some benefit from insulating the roof. The gains are
limited because the glass remains the primary source of heating.
I'm trying to find out more about Sterling cooling now. Nice page with
links:
http://www.sunpower.com/lib/sitefiles/pdf/publications/Doc0101.pdf
Suhas, what do you mean "adapt" the Coleman cooler? That thing has only
a tiny amount of cooling capacity. That Coleman device can't be adapted
to be anything but a cooler.
Danny
Suhas Malghan wrote:
> It's probably undersized, but I'm really interested in the Stirling
> compressor used in this Coleman cooler.
>
> http://www.coleman.com/coleman/colemancom/detail.asp?product_id=5726
> -750&categoryid=8595
>
> It uses only helium gas as the working fluid and sailboat people love
> it because it uses so little energy that it can run off of a small
> solar panel. I would like to put a/c in my MR2, but using a
> conventional system with even the most "environmentally friendly"
> refrigerant just seems like a case of less bad rather than more
> good. Come fall I'm going to get one of these and figure out how to
> adapt it.
You know, we might be on the wrong track trying to make an electric AC
like a "normal" car AC. Why not try to be something different?
The enormous cooling capacity of the std AC is due to the need to bleed
off the enormous heat of being in the sun and the very poor insulation
conditions while driving. How much of this can be "fixed"?
Back to my camper van. When Sportsmobile made its fiberglass pop-up
roof, they did insulate it. There's also fiberglass in the walls and
nice interior padding.
Even though it's a dark gray, I can tell you that this thing has FAR
less serious heating problems when you leave it in a parking lot in the
summer than any sedan I have been in. The steering wheel ain't gonna
blister you.
Possible ways to reduce the need to extremely high cooling capacity:
1. Insulate roof, walls, maybe even floor
2. Paint it white
3. Tint the windows other than the windshield
4. Automatic or otherwise very convenient shades for all the windows.
5. An exhaust fan to remove the high heat it absorbs being in the sun.
Danny
I'm sure I had a phone discussion with the pople involved. They were very
ignorant at the time. They had no idea how to get a vehicle registered and
did not know about unsprun weight. The wheel motors weigh 18Kg each. That's
in addition to the wheel and suspension links. That's not going to make for
good ride, roadholding and handling. It's irrelevant anyway, since the
vehicle couln't legally be put on the road. It ONLY has regenerative brakes!
They might get it past SVA (single vehicle approval) since the brakes will
resumably work fine. I think they said they would dissipate the energy in
the motors if the pack was full. It won't however meet the Construction and
Use regulations, which REQUIRE a mechanical braking system, even if power
operated.
Paul Compton
www.sciroccoev.co.uk
www.bvs.org.uk
www.morini-mania.co.uk
www.compton.vispa.com/the_named
----- Original Message -----
From: "EVRIDER" <evride@...>
To: "EV Discussion ListProc" <ev@...>
Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 3:13 PM
Subject: Hummmm Look at this. Anyone "seen" one?
> No pictures; but it is what I thought of doing years ago...with a Cadillac
> no less:
>
>
http://www.visforvoltage.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=27&t=3818&s=093830c2d4de0\
416ca152fc10a078eef
>
> EVRIDER
>
On 29 Jun 2006 at 21:08, John Foster wrote:
> Hope the compressor doesn't burn out with the modified sine from the
> inverter. Where are you going to put it, in the window? :)
Why not?
http://www.evdl.org/tmp/aircon-truck.jpg
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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David Sherritze wrote:
> I have a 72 volt EV that I drive to work.
>
> I have been thinking about a dump charger that would build up charge
> all day and that would recharge the EV quickly when I get home. This
> would allow me to run my evening errands and then let both the EV and
> dump charger charge overnight.
I would suggest taking a serious look at the offerings from ETEC:
<http://www.etecevs.com/nev/>
The LSV-2472 might be sufficient to satisfy your needs, and if not, the
LSV-100 certainly will.
These are both intelligent fast chargers aimed specifically at the 72V
NEV market. I think that by the time you price out a 96V pack of
flooded GC batteries and some sort of charge controller to allow you to
control the charge rate (e.g. a motor controller and inductor), and a
charger to recharge the dump pack, and the contactor(s) etc. to connect
the dump pack to the NEV, you will probably find that the cost of simply
buying a fast charger is quite reasonable in comparison (especially
considering the cost of charging/maintaining/replacing the dump pack
over time, and the real estate it will consume in your garage).
Cheers,
Roger.
Yes but the Porsche chargers are independant units and are no doubt isolated
from each other. My question was in regards to the
Deltran 10 Bank Battery Tender thats built as 1 unit.
http://www.batterymart.com/battery.mv?p=DEL-021-0134
I remember seeing mention a ways back about people using this one, but I don't
remember if they had to isolate their batteries
prior to hookng up this charger.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
> Behalf Of Stefan T. Peters
> Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 12:29 AM
> To: ev@...
> Subject: Re: gang charger
>
>
> Mike Willmon wrote:
> > This might be a silly question but can you actually connect these 10 port
chargers in series, which is what you would
> be doing if
> > you hooked one to each battery in a series connected string.
> >
>
> But then you wouldn't have the benefit of keeping your batteries
> balanced ;-)
>
> Mathew, here is someone currently "ganging" up on their charging, FYI...
>
> http://www.knology.net/~gdion/EVPorsche/chargers.html
>
> ~ Peanut Gallery ~
>
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Hey, I wonder if this is actually a thermoacoustic cooler? Technically
those are supposed to fall under the Stirling Cycle category, but they
don't look anything like any textbook Stirling piston devices.
Danny
Suhas Malghan wrote:
> It's probably undersized, but I'm really interested in the Stirling
> compressor used in this Coleman cooler.
>
> http://www.coleman.com/coleman/colemancom/detail.asp?product_id=5726
> -750&categoryid=8595
>
> It uses only helium gas as the working fluid and sailboat people love
> it because it uses so little energy that it can run off of a small
> solar panel. I would like to put a/c in my MR2, but using a
> conventional system with even the most "environmentally friendly"
> refrigerant just seems like a case of less bad rather than more
> good. Come fall I'm going to get one of these and figure out how to
> adapt it.
>
>
TdS Report #48: Demonstration: Honda FCX Fuel Cell Car
Lawrence D'Arco, who is with the New York State Department of Environmental
Conservation, is here with Honda's hydrogen gas powered fuel cell car, the FCX.
(I presume that stands for something like Fuel Cell eXperimental).
"We have two in the New York state fleet, that we lease from Honda. There are
twenty-two world wide. They sent them to Albany because New York state is very
progressive in terms of alternate fuel vehicles and because they wanted to run
these in a cold-weather climate and see how they operate. The hydrogen gas is
fed into the fuel cell, which produces electricity, which runs the electric
motor. The only thing that comes out of the tail pipe is heat and water vapor.
When the vapor condenses it is clean enough to drink."
These cars are normal state motor pool vehicles, although not given to just any
driver. There is an orientation. "The only difference is how you start it.
You turn the key and then you must wait about 10 seconds. After that it is no
different to drive than any other car. What is different is that it is
quieter, smoother, and has excellent acceleration."
We went for a ride. After Lawrence turned the key, the dark dashboard display
panel lit up with "Fuel Cell Powered", a couple of logos, "System Check" with a
bar graph showing progress, and then the dashboard lit up with the usual dials.
That was the 10-second start-up. "It may have been even less than 10 seconds
since it has recently been driven."
Backing out of the parking spot, the FCX showed its EVishness by making no
perceptible noise. "The graph on the left, the blue bars, shows the
electricity being produced by the fuel cell. The yellow bars show the
electricity coming from the ultra-capacitor (which takes the place of a
battery pack). "The ultra capacitor is used to keep up with sudden load
changes, and takes in energy created by regenerative braking. "The white bars
below show the amount of recharging." There is a display, measured in miles,
labelled "Distance To Empty", which read 100 miles when we started. "And these
blue bars indicate how much fuel is left. It has this gasoline pump symbol on
the gauge, but my pump station doesn't look like that."
As we drove, there were times when the energy use bars all showed zero; we were
just coasting. But when he punched the accelerator pedal, the car demonstrated
strong, smooth acceleration. The sound of acceleration is a quiet, smoothly
rising pitch, without the jumps associated with gear changing because there is
none. The electric motor connects to the front wheels without a transmission.
What has been the user reaction to the FCX? "I've not spoken to anyone who
disliked driving this vehicle. I've only heard good things about the
smoothness, the responsiveness, the quietness, and the acceleration. The one
disadvantage is the range, about 160 miles. " The only hydrogen station is in
Albany.
"There is one family in California that has a fuel cell vehicle; the only one
in the world. All the others are leased by government entities." As you might
expect, the car itself collects constant data, which Honda collects
periodically. "They were wondering who was driving the car at 85!"
"There is a lot of emphasis on hydrogen as the future, but there are a lot of
hurdles. To perfect this technology they have to bring down the cost, and
create the hydrogen infrastructure. If you had millions of vehicles with water
coming out of their tail pipes it would be pretty awesome, especially compared
to what we are doing now," but we should wonder what effect that might have.
- - - -
The complete set of Tour de Sol Reports for 2006 can be found at:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2006
The complete set of past Tour de Sol Reports can be found at:
http://www.FovealSystems.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
- - - -
The above is Copyright 2006 by Michael H. Bianchi.
Permission to copy is granted provided the entire article is presented
without modification and this notice remains attached.
For other arrangements, contact me at +1-973-822-2085 .
- - - -
For more on the NESEA Tour de Sol, see the web page at
http://www.TourdeSol.org
- - - -
Official NESEA Tour de Sol information is available from the sponsor,
the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association (NESEA) at
413 774-6051 , and 50 Miles Street, Greenfield, MA 01301 , and
nesea@... . All media enquiries should be addressed to ...
Stef Komorowski
Classic Communications
508-698-6810
classic.pr@...
TdS Report #49: Photos - Honda FCX
Photographs from the Tour de Sol:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2006/photos_021.html
Honda FCX
Last year the Honda FCX's were newly leased to New York State.
Now they have accumulated a year of experience.
Honda's Fuel Cell powered FCX.
Opened up for inspection.
Note the hole in the side view mirror;
I wonder why?
Under the hood.
- - - -
The complete set of Tour de Sol Reports for 2006 can be found at:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2006
The complete set of past Tour de Sol Reports can be found at:
http://www.FovealSystems.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
- - - -
The above is Copyright 2006 by Michael H. Bianchi.
Permission to copy is granted provided the entire article is presented
without modification and this notice remains attached.
For other arrangements, contact me at +1-973-822-2085 .
- - - -
For more on the NESEA Tour de Sol, see the web page at
http://www.TourdeSol.org
- - - -
Official NESEA Tour de Sol information is available from the sponsor,
the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association (NESEA) at
413 774-6051 , and 50 Miles Street, Greenfield, MA 01301 , and
nesea@... . All media enquiries should be addressed to ...
Stef Komorowski
Classic Communications
508-698-6810
classic.pr@...
Robert Chew wrote:
>> Why not just open the windows! :-)
Actually I have done range tests with AC and with the windows open. In
highway driving, I use more power with windows down than with AC on.
AC does not take much power all things considered.
CZ
Yes you can do that but you are adding weight to the vehicle which will
affect range.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
Behalf Of Danny Miller
Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 3:30 PM
To: ev@...
Subject: Air conditioning gains
You know, we might be on the wrong track trying to make an electric AC
like a "normal" car AC. Why not try to be something different?
The enormous cooling capacity of the std AC is due to the need to bleed
off the enormous heat of being in the sun and the very poor insulation
conditions while driving. How much of this can be "fixed"?
Back to my camper van. When Sportsmobile made its fiberglass pop-up
roof, they did insulate it. There's also fiberglass in the walls and
nice interior padding.
Even though it's a dark gray, I can tell you that this thing has FAR
less serious heating problems when you leave it in a parking lot in the
summer than any sedan I have been in. The steering wheel ain't gonna
blister you.
Possible ways to reduce the need to extremely high cooling capacity:
1. Insulate roof, walls, maybe even floor
2. Paint it white
3. Tint the windows other than the windshield
4. Automatic or otherwise very convenient shades for all the windows.
5. An exhaust fan to remove the high heat it absorbs being in the sun.
Danny
Thanks for the suggestions. I guess I'll really have to look at the
floodies then. I've driven a car with floodies before and the car just
felt really heavy to drive. They were old though, perhaps new ones will
drive different?
-Jon
It seems that I killed one of my Trojans T-125s. It was about 1/2 year
old. A few days ago, my truck behaved pretty normal. I did normal my
normal watering schedule and the particular battery didn't needed more
than the others. The very next day the truck started to behave odd and
today, after a 13 Miles drive, I went ahead and checked all battery
voltages.
All batteries were about 0.05 volts from each other, but one battery read
4.43 Volts under light load, 5.58 with no load. Both battery posts were
warm to the touch while all other battery posts felt cool. I took the
battery from its box and put it on a seperate 6 V charger. The plus cell
became pretty hot after just a few minutes.
Can I safely assume that this battery is shot? And why would that happen?
I *never* discharged my batteries below 50% DOD and *never* pulled more
than 300 Amps. Charger is a Zivan NG-3 on board.
Michaela
How many are you going to use? I think if you hook chargers up to each
individual battery you are going to get cross interference from them. I
would think if you used one or two with a rotator circuit and relays you
could keep them separate.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
Behalf Of Matthew Milliron
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 9:39 PM
To: ev@...
Subject: gang charger
I have made the decision to make a gang-charger. Walmart had
Schumaker 12/8/2 Speed chargers for less than $40.
I plan to make something like this:
http://www.batterymart.com/battery.mv?p=DEL-021-0134
These are isolated and have a 12/8/2 amp charge profile with
anti-sulfation settings.
http://www.batterychargers.com/itemlist.cfm?cid=2
I plan to take the 3phase out of the car and use these as an
opportunity charger.
Wadda ya think?
Matt Milliron
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/702
My daughter named it, "Pikachu". It's yellow and black,
electric and contains Japanese parts, so I went with it.
I try to water my batteries every month around the first so I don't forget
With the Florida heat and the moderately heavy use, it is not uncommon for
the cells of my GEM car's flooded batteries to take 4 to 6 oz of water per
cell.
When the batteries need a lot of water, I have also noticed that for a
couple of cycles after watering the range drops. I assume because the
battery electrolyte and water need time to mix.
If the battery does not come back after a half dozen cycles, then I would
take the battery back to the dealer for a diagnostic. At 6 months it should
still be under warranty.
My thoughts
David
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
Behalf Of Michaela Merz
Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 4:04 PM
To: ev@...
Subject: Dead Battery ?
It seems that I killed one of my Trojans T-125s. It was about 1/2 year
old. A few days ago, my truck behaved pretty normal. I did normal my
normal watering schedule and the particular battery didn't needed more
than the others. The very next day the truck started to behave odd and
today, after a 13 Miles drive, I went ahead and checked all battery
voltages.
All batteries were about 0.05 volts from each other, but one battery read
4.43 Volts under light load, 5.58 with no load. Both battery posts were
warm to the touch while all other battery posts felt cool. I took the
battery from its box and put it on a seperate 6 V charger. The plus cell
became pretty hot after just a few minutes.
Can I safely assume that this battery is shot? And why would that happen?
I *never* discharged my batteries below 50% DOD and *never* pulled more
than 300 Amps. Charger is a Zivan NG-3 on board.
Michaela
Indeed, but it's a matter of tradeoff. AC seems to be about 1kw for
5000 BTU. So an additional 5000 BTU for one hour is around 65 lbs of
battery capacity. In fact if you want to keep your discharges to 50%
for long life, this is 130 lbs of lead.
Spraying some high R-value polyurethane over the headliner and in the
voids is probably only in the low tens of lbs. Of course this may be
difficult but apparently just about everything with EV conversions
requires being pretty clever. Still this is only a portion of the total
heat problem, the windows remain, also a foam-filled A-pillar still has
a steel skin that can conduct quite a bit of heat around the foam.
The window shades can really help it from becoming a hotbox, but it
won't help the issue of maintaining a low temp while driving.
Danny
Jody Dewey wrote:
>Yes you can do that but you are adding weight to the vehicle which will
>affect range.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
>Behalf Of Danny Miller
>Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 3:30 PM
>To: ev@...
>Subject: Air conditioning gains
>
>
>You know, we might be on the wrong track trying to make an electric AC
>like a "normal" car AC. Why not try to be something different?
>
>The enormous cooling capacity of the std AC is due to the need to bleed
>off the enormous heat of being in the sun and the very poor insulation
>conditions while driving. How much of this can be "fixed"?
>
>Back to my camper van. When Sportsmobile made its fiberglass pop-up
>roof, they did insulate it. There's also fiberglass in the walls and
>nice interior padding.
>
>Even though it's a dark gray, I can tell you that this thing has FAR
>less serious heating problems when you leave it in a parking lot in the
>summer than any sedan I have been in. The steering wheel ain't gonna
>blister you.
>
>Possible ways to reduce the need to extremely high cooling capacity:
>1. Insulate roof, walls, maybe even floor
>2. Paint it white
>3. Tint the windows other than the windshield
>4. Automatic or otherwise very convenient shades for all the windows.
>5. An exhaust fan to remove the high heat it absorbs being in the sun.
>
>Danny
>
>
>
>
Hello Michaela,
Its looks like you have one short cell. You have two cells at 2.21 volt each or
4.41 volt total. If all three cells were good than it would be 6.64 volts which
is a normal voltage for a full charge battery.
Charging a 4.41 volt battery, on a 6 volt charger to 7 to 7.5 volts cause it to
be overcharge.
Just turn it back in for a new one, which you should be credit for 18 months for
a 24 month warrenty. Have them replace it with a battery date as close as you
ones in your EV.
Before you accept the battery, take a S.G. reading, voltage and a load reading.
Some dealers do not have maintainers on there stock.
Make sure they either warranty if from the day you get it, or get a disconnect
on a new battery that is dated, which they should prorated back to that date.
I had one T-145 go bad after 6 months, and they replace it free with a another
T-145 with the same battery dates as by other ones.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Michaela Merz<mailto:misch@...>
To: ev@...<mailto:ev@...>
Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 3:03 PM
Subject: Dead Battery ?
It seems that I killed one of my Trojans T-125s. It was about 1/2 year
old. A few days ago, my truck behaved pretty normal. I did normal my
normal watering schedule and the particular battery didn't needed more
than the others. The very next day the truck started to behave odd and
today, after a 13 Miles drive, I went ahead and checked all battery
voltages.
All batteries were about 0.05 volts from each other, but one battery read
4.43 Volts under light load, 5.58 with no load. Both battery posts were
warm to the touch while all other battery posts felt cool. I took the
battery from its box and put it on a seperate 6 V charger. The plus cell
became pretty hot after just a few minutes.
Can I safely assume that this battery is shot? And why would that happen?
I *never* discharged my batteries below 50% DOD and *never* pulled more
than 300 Amps. Charger is a Zivan NG-3 on board.
Michaela
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michaela Merz" <misch@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 5:03 PM
Subject: Dead Battery ?
>
> It seems that I killed one of my Trojans T-125s. It was about 1/2 year
> old. A few days ago, my truck behaved pretty normal. I did normal my
> normal watering schedule and the particular battery didn't needed more
> than the others. The very next day the truck started to behave odd and
> today, after a 13 Miles drive, I went ahead and checked all battery
> voltages.
>
> All batteries were about 0.05 volts from each other, but one battery read
> 4.43 Volts under light load, 5.58 with no load. Both battery posts were
> warm to the touch while all other battery posts felt cool. I took the
> battery from its box and put it on a seperate 6 V charger. The plus cell
> became pretty hot after just a few minutes.
>
> Can I safely assume that this battery is shot? And why would that happen?
> I *never* discharged my batteries below 50% DOD and *never* pulled more
> than 300 Amps. Charger is a Zivan NG-3 on board.
>
> Michaela
>
Hi Michaela;
This happens. I don't know why. I'm hard on batteries and in my old,
(retired now)commute to work, like 150-2090 amps I sure found these
batteries pretty fast!I would say that the battery is shot. If you drive the
car a bit more agressivly you will find a severe voltage drop, when that
damn dead cell reverses, under load, and you will have a " Trojan Teakettle"
A bubbly hot cell, and a voltage check, not under lload will be about 4
volts.
Bastteries are like used people, you never know what you've got, til the
going gets tough.Bettya you SEE the voltage drop when ya drive? Right?
Sluggishg takeoffs, crappy range as you are boiling water, rather than
turning wheels. Pull that battery, just jumper around it, if ya havent got
any others.Plan on a respectful funeral for that one, or if it is under
warrenty? Take it back.
As for WHY/? Shit happens. I guess you COULD skilsaw the damn thing open
and look inside. But that is messy, and you arent gunna be able to fix it
anyhow. I guess I just find these things FASTER with my amp draws? But you
don't have to draw big amps. When the battery decides "I'm Outta Here"
That's it!
My two plates worth
Bob
Sounds too good to be true. The Li battery will not last 10years due to
calendar degradation. David
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...] On
Behalf Of Paul Compton
Sent: Sunday, 2 July 2006 5:09 AM
To: ev@...
Subject: Re: Hummmm Look at this. Anyone "seen" one?
I'm sure I had a phone discussion with the pople involved. They were very
ignorant at the time. They had no idea how to get a vehicle registered and
did not know about unsprun weight. The wheel motors weigh 18Kg each. That's
in addition to the wheel and suspension links. That's not going to make for
good ride, roadholding and handling. It's irrelevant anyway, since the
vehicle couln't legally be put on the road. It ONLY has regenerative brakes!
They might get it past SVA (single vehicle approval) since the brakes will
resumably work fine. I think they said they would dissipate the energy in
the motors if the pack was full. It won't however meet the Construction and
Use regulations, which REQUIRE a mechanical braking system, even if power
operated.
Paul Compton
www.sciroccoev.co.uk
www.bvs.org.uk
www.morini-mania.co.uk
www.compton.vispa.com/the_named
----- Original Message -----
From: "EVRIDER" <evride@...>
To: "EV Discussion ListProc" <ev@...>
Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 3:13 PM
Subject: Hummmm Look at this. Anyone "seen" one?
> No pictures; but it is what I thought of doing years ago...with a Cadillac
> no less:
>
>
http://www.visforvoltage.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=27&t=3818&s=093830c2d
4de0416ca152fc10a078eef
>
> EVRIDER
>
EV Digest 5615
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Sandusky Radio Network Interview - A whole half HOUR
by Steven Lough <stevenslough@...>
2) Re: Dragtimes Vote Where were all the Who's?
by James Massey <jcmassey@...>
3) Re: Air conditioning gains
by "Michael" <mperry@...>
4) Re: Current Eliminator News
by KilowattA798@...
5) RE: Hummmm Look at this. Anyone "seen" one?
by "David Roden" <evpost@...>
6) RE: Air conditioning gains
by "Jody Dewey" <jodydewey@...>
7) Re: Air conditioning gains
by "Death to All Spammers" <cowtown@...>
8) Re: Air conditioning gains
by Danny Miller <dannym@...>
9) Re: gang charger
by Matthew Milliron <rmm@...>
10) Re: e-volks
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <primobassoon@...>
11) Bad b
by Jimmy <zetaomega2000@...>
12) Charging Lead Acid
by "Michaela Merz" <misch@...>
13) Re: Air conditioning gains
by Jeff Shanab <jshanab@...>
14) Re: Air conditioning gains
by Danny Miller <dannym@...>
15) Re: Hummmm Look at this. Anyone "seen" one?
by "David Sharpe" <dsh63475@...>
16) Re: gang charger
by "Paul G." <paul-g@...>
17) Re: gang charger
by "Michael Perry" <mperry@...>
18) Re: Charging Lead Acid
by Nick Viera <jeepev@...>
19) My Cabby lives! (Zilla voltage/current limit question)
by "Adrian DeLeon" <adrian@...>
20) Re: Charging Lead Acid
by Nick Viera <jeepev@...>
21) Re: My Cabby lives! (Zilla voltage/current limit question)
by James Massey <jcmassey@...>
22) Re: gang charger
by KilowattA798@...
23) RE: gang charger
by "David Sherritze" <sherritze@...>
24) Re: My Cabby lives! (Zilla voltage/current limit question)
by "BillDube@..." <billdube@...>
25) Electrac For Sale
by <bobrice@...>
26) Re: gang charger
by KilowattA798@...
27) air conditioning for ev's
by Jimmy <zetaomega2000@...>
28) Re: Hummmm Look at this. Anyone "seen" one?
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <evpost@...>
29) Re: Air conditioning gains
by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
30) Re: e-volks
by "Paul G." <paul-g@...>
Hi Folks:
It was a great interview. Got in all the GOOD stuff
EV - Drag Racing
FOOL Cells
Plug-In-Hybarids
NEV's
Conversions
Efficiency Factors...
You name it.
and SEVA SEVA SEVA over and over again....
OH and "Who Killed the Electric CAR !"
Ryan (our Web Guy ) has the MP3 file. Its a little under 28.6 Megs...
but he is trying to SHRINK it even more, to be put UP on the SEVA web
site....
But if you want to hear it Almost LIVE...EARLY (sorry)
Tune to: KKNW 1150 AM at 7am Sunday morning 7/2/06
or KQMV 92.5 FM at 6:30 am Sunday morning 7/2/06
or KIXI at 880 AM at 5:30 am Sunday morming 7/2/06
or KWJZ at 98.9 FM at 6 am Sunday morning 7/2/06
BOY !!! Wish these Air Times were not so EARLY... but Its still
great to get a whole Half Hour of air time FREE !!
Happy Listening...
PS: For the Out of Towners... I Dont know if the STREAM on the Net or
not... You could look em up...
The show airs on Saturday morning on KKNW 1150 AM at 7am, and Sunday
morning on KQMV 92.5 FM at 6:30 am, KIXI 880 AM at 5:30am, KWJZ 98.9 FM
at 6am.
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: stevenslough@...
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
At 06:29 AM 1/07/06 -0700, Roderick Wilde wrote:
>Cheer up Shawn, look on the bright side. Matt gets to be the number one
>car again for a month. This means even more exposure for EVs. We have had
>EVs now for several months in the top positions. Once you are car of the
>month you are gone off the radar. I'm sure Matt will make it next month.
G'day all
What is better for EVs profile: Matts car right there on the front page
inthe "top 10", or White Zombie having flashed up the list, a month as the
featured car and then disappeared to a page that has to be clicked onto
before you even know that WZ is there?
IMHO there has been a lot more exposure by having fast EVs in the top 10 on
the front page - right there, front page, top 10 list, two electric cars. I
know that the list is "top 10 contenders" rather than "top 10", but they
are there on the front page, where everyone new to Dragtimes.com sees them,
whilst White Zombie, and all the other previous "car of the month" listings
are now off into back pages.
Just a thought
[Technik] James
> The enormous cooling capacity of the std AC is due to the need to bleed
> off the enormous heat of being in the sun and the very poor insulation
> conditions while driving. How much of this can be "fixed"?
>
> Back to my camper van. When Sportsmobile made its fiberglass pop-up
> roof, they did insulate it. There's also fiberglass in the walls and
> nice interior padding.
> Danny
That's a good thought. Most solar gain is through windows. My previous car
had windows that were mostly vertical... the new one has windows that are
about 30 degrees from horizontal. The prev car didn't have AC... the new
one requires it be turned on any day it's sunny and over 70 degrees.
Also double roofs worked well for really hot areas. Land Rovers for Africa
used those.
Had the CE dragster runing last night at speedworld.On the 3rd pass we got
buried in a dust storm 2 thirds of the way down the track.The new brushes are
seating in nice without trace of arcing.I will continue to advance the timing to
slow my eight mile times and inprove the top end where it will confuse the
car in the other lane bracket racing.Racing next weekend at Firebird. Dennis
Berube
On 2 Jul 2006 at 8:03, David Sharpe wrote:
> The Li battery will not last 10years due to
> calendar degradation.
I read this often, and wonder. I have two laptops, one 10 years old and one
8 years old. Both still have the original LiIon batteries, still going
strong. OK, capacity is down a bit on the older one, but it's still enough
to run for close to an hour - though we seldom use it on battery for more
than a few minutes at a time.
Maybe these are the exceptions?
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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To send a private message, please use evadm at drmm period net.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
You are right! I just thought about what you said and I can think of
several places I can spray that foam crap. Tinting my windows will be
something else I will be doing. My car has a black interior so maybe
changing it to a lighter color would help also. I do plan on painting the
whole car white or a gray, I havent decided.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
Behalf Of Danny Miller
Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 6:22 PM
To: ev@...
Subject: Re: Air conditioning gains
Indeed, but it's a matter of tradeoff. AC seems to be about 1kw for
5000 BTU. So an additional 5000 BTU for one hour is around 65 lbs of
battery capacity. In fact if you want to keep your discharges to 50%
for long life, this is 130 lbs of lead.
Spraying some high R-value polyurethane over the headliner and in the
voids is probably only in the low tens of lbs. Of course this may be
difficult but apparently just about everything with EV conversions
requires being pretty clever. Still this is only a portion of the total
heat problem, the windows remain, also a foam-filled A-pillar still has
a steel skin that can conduct quite a bit of heat around the foam.
The window shades can really help it from becoming a hotbox, but it
won't help the issue of maintaining a low temp while driving.
Danny
Jody Dewey wrote:
>Yes you can do that but you are adding weight to the vehicle which will
>affect range.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
>Behalf Of Danny Miller
>Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 3:30 PM
>To: ev@...
>Subject: Air conditioning gains
>
>
>You know, we might be on the wrong track trying to make an electric AC
>like a "normal" car AC. Why not try to be something different?
>
>The enormous cooling capacity of the std AC is due to the need to bleed
>off the enormous heat of being in the sun and the very poor insulation
>conditions while driving. How much of this can be "fixed"?
>
>Back to my camper van. When Sportsmobile made its fiberglass pop-up
>roof, they did insulate it. There's also fiberglass in the walls and
>nice interior padding.
>
>Even though it's a dark gray, I can tell you that this thing has FAR
>less serious heating problems when you leave it in a parking lot in the
>summer than any sedan I have been in. The steering wheel ain't gonna
>blister you.
>
>Possible ways to reduce the need to extremely high cooling capacity:
>1. Insulate roof, walls, maybe even floor
>2. Paint it white
>3. Tint the windows other than the windshield
>4. Automatic or otherwise very convenient shades for all the windows.
>5. An exhaust fan to remove the high heat it absorbs being in the sun.
>
>Danny
>
>
>
>
> Indeed, but it's a matter of tradeoff. AC seems to be about 1kw for
> 5000 BTU. So an additional 5000 BTU for one hour is around 65 lbs of
> battery capacity. In fact if you want to keep your discharges to 50%
> for long life, this is 130 lbs of lead.
>
Even a cheap window AC can hit an EER of 10 - that's 10K Btu's of
cooling from 1 kWh of electricity. Additionally, heat pumps commonly
reach SEERs of 10 for 10K Btu's per kWh (nearly 3 times the heat from
direct use).
Also the degree of recirculation. As I understand it the "Max" setting
means that it's totally recirculated. However, if the car's 130F
inside, this is actually the worst setting. Performance would initially
be much better if it brings in outside at at 95F, runs it across the
evaporator, and puts that into the cabin. It would be best to take in
whichever is cooler and with the lowest humidity- 95F air inside the
cabin that has already been circulated and dried out to a lot RH by the
AC might be preferrable to wet 85F air on the outside. Note that if
you're taking in outside air, there should be an exhaust vent too,
otherwise it will just build up a slight positive pressure inside the
cabin and then stop moving air. I don't know how cars handle that
already, some the existing vents might lead outside.
Danny
Jody Dewey wrote:
>You are right! I just thought about what you said and I can think of
>several places I can spray that foam crap. Tinting my windows will be
>something else I will be doing. My car has a black interior so maybe
>changing it to a lighter color would help also. I do plan on painting the
>whole car white or a gray, I havent decided.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
>Behalf Of Danny Miller
>Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 6:22 PM
>To: ev@...
>Subject: Re: Air conditioning gains
>
>
>Indeed, but it's a matter of tradeoff. AC seems to be about 1kw for
>5000 BTU. So an additional 5000 BTU for one hour is around 65 lbs of
>battery capacity. In fact if you want to keep your discharges to 50%
>for long life, this is 130 lbs of lead.
>
>Spraying some high R-value polyurethane over the headliner and in the
>voids is probably only in the low tens of lbs. Of course this may be
>difficult but apparently just about everything with EV conversions
>requires being pretty clever. Still this is only a portion of the total
>heat problem, the windows remain, also a foam-filled A-pillar still has
>a steel skin that can conduct quite a bit of heat around the foam.
>
>The window shades can really help it from becoming a hotbox, but it
>won't help the issue of maintaining a low temp while driving.
>
>Danny
>
>Jody Dewey wrote:
>
>
>
>>Yes you can do that but you are adding weight to the vehicle which will
>>affect range.
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
>>Behalf Of Danny Miller
>>Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 3:30 PM
>>To: ev@...
>>Subject: Air conditioning gains
>>
>>
>>You know, we might be on the wrong track trying to make an electric AC
>>like a "normal" car AC. Why not try to be something different?
>>
>>The enormous cooling capacity of the std AC is due to the need to bleed
>>off the enormous heat of being in the sun and the very poor insulation
>>conditions while driving. How much of this can be "fixed"?
>>
>>Back to my camper van. When Sportsmobile made its fiberglass pop-up
>>roof, they did insulate it. There's also fiberglass in the walls and
>>nice interior padding.
>>
>>Even though it's a dark gray, I can tell you that this thing has FAR
>>less serious heating problems when you leave it in a parking lot in the
>>summer than any sedan I have been in. The steering wheel ain't gonna
>>blister you.
>>
>>Possible ways to reduce the need to extremely high cooling capacity:
>>1. Insulate roof, walls, maybe even floor
>>2. Paint it white
>>3. Tint the windows other than the windshield
>>4. Automatic or otherwise very convenient shades for all the windows.
>>5. An exhaust fan to remove the high heat it absorbs being in the sun.
>>
>>Danny
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
On Sat, 1 Jul 2006 17:07:28 -0400, you wrote:
>How many are you going to use?
I bought 8. I would rather bought the Deltran but it only charges
at 2 amps.
> I think if you hook chargers up to each
>individual battery you are going to get cross interference from them. I
>would think if you used one or two with a rotator circuit and relays you
>could keep them separate.
>
As I understand it. As long as the individual units are isolated
from the AC side of things. I should be able to charge my series
string.
>
> I have made the decision to make a gang-charger. Walmart had
>Schumaker 12/8/2 Speed chargers for less than $40.
>I plan to make something like this:
>http://www.batterymart.com/battery.mv?p=DEL-021-0134
>
> These are isolated and have a 12/8/2 amp charge profile with
>anti-sulfation settings.
>http://www.batterychargers.com/itemlist.cfm?cid=2
Matt Milliron
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/702
My daughter named it, "Pikachu". It's yellow and black,
electric and contains Japanese parts, so I went with it.
I'd use resting voltage. If 83v is full. 72v is dead. You will be able to
get these figures a few minutes after use. Figure 20% low while in use.
More at freeway speeds. Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "jmygann" <jmygann@...>
To: "David Sherritze" <ev@...>
Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 10:52 AM
Subject: Re: e-volks
> Using the Alltrax ontroller ... in a 4 door geo metro
>
> How do I figure the DoD ??
>
>
> --- In ev-list-archive@yahoogroups.com, "David Sherritze" <ev@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Are you running a controller or the micro-switch set up?
> >
> > How far discharged (DoD) are you at the 25 mile range?
> >
> > What type of vehicle are you using the kit in?
> >
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
> > Behalf Of jmygann
> > Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 2:30 PM
> > To: Jack Murray
> > Subject: Re: e-volks
> >
> >
> >
> > At 48 volts ... 45mph top speed
> >
> > Range up to 25 miles
> >
> > --- In ev-list-archive@yahoogroups.com, Jack Murray <ev@> wrote:
> > >
> > > what kind of performance do you get with the motor?
> > >
> > > jmygann wrote:
> > > > I have an e-volks kit ..... If I can be of any assistance let
> > me know
> > > >
> > > > Jimmy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
I agree,
But he is "trying" to patent it - and if successful it would be very
design specific. Any profit made - may not be kept long since Badboy is
not a noun but an adjective. As we all know - bad boys do not always
behave if not monitored. They can sometimes start fires especially if
they leave too many light bulbs on.
Read the excert below!
"The device resembles an extension cord housed in a square, four-inch
electrical box with light bulb sockets. It weighs 1 pound. Users would
connect a rechargeable battery to the charger box and plug in the unit.
The more light bulbs connected to the box, the more juice it provides,
charging any battery up to about 170 volts.
'You hook it up to your battery and you go have a beer,'' he said. ``It's
well worth it when you want to go fishing.'"
Yikes!!!
Jimmy
> From: "David Sharpe"
> This "charger" is going to have abysmal efficiency. It uses basic
> principals so should not be patentable. It may be dangerous as well.
David
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...] On
> Behalf Of Danny Miller
> Subject: Bad b
>
> This guy is actually patenting the "bad boy" charger as a new
> invention. Guess you all are gonna owe royalties:
>
>
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/local/states/florida/counties/miam
i-dade/cities_neighborhoods/pinecrest/14731378.htm
>
> Danny
Hello:
Is a charging voltage of about 2.6 Volts per cell during absorption stage
considered to be ok? Or is it a bit on the 'to high' side? I just went and
checked my (Zivan) charger again ...
Michaela
If we never let the interior,metal and glass get hot, then we don't need
as much to cool it. Kinda like not needing a really stiff pack if you
have ultracaps.
There is coating in the new windshields on newer cars that if not
specified during a winshield replacement can show up later as an
inadequet AC unit. I don't think it can be put into a film(it is
basically clear) but worth looking into.
I suggest we try a few things.
Get a solar panel running a muffin fan that keeps the interior vented
while in a parking lot to reduce the build up of heat.
Get a variable speed compressor like the 2004 prius and run it slow.
Insulate.
I've never owned a car cover, how much do they help, perhaps we can
make a little "sombrero cover" that covers just down to the bottom edge
of the windows, maybe sew some magnets in to the hem to keep it from
blowing away.
I've seen little solar window fans for a long time, they've been doing a
lot of TV ads for one now.
I have a hard time seeing that little thing moving enough air to keep
the temp down. It's a little centrifugal blower, which was probably
selected because it doesn't use a large outlet like a muffin fan so the
window won't have to be open far and it won't let much rain.
I did have one, but it had the solar cell on the inside of the window,
which really was a bad idea with my window tint.
In an EV, the solar power is not a necessary feature. There's enough
battery power to run a fan for months, or the 12v aux battery can power
it for days. If the solar panel's not enough output to justify putting
one on to charge the main batteries (and it's not), then you really
can't justify it for running loads either. Well it means you don't need
to keep a DC/DC converter idling, and don't need to worry about wiring
to it. But you're probably going to run off the 12v aux battery
anyways, not off a DC/DC directly.
I think the rain and/or theft potential is the big problem. It'd be
nice to use the normal car AC vents with a buried fan to draw out the
air, but it's not going to draw out the air from the higer points on the
vehicle which are by far the bulk of the problem.
Danny
Jeff Shanab wrote:
> Get a solar panel running a muffin fan that keeps the interior vented
>while in a parking lot to reduce the build up of heat.
>
>
You can bet your laptop battery is well down on its original capacity. I
have an old compaq laptop (one of the first) which has a dead Li battery. I
didnt mention "cells" in this email David.
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <evpost@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 9:38 AM
Subject: RE: Hummmm Look at this. Anyone "seen" one?
> On 2 Jul 2006 at 8:03, David Sharpe wrote:
>
>> The Li battery will not last 10years due to
>> calendar degradation.
>
> I read this often, and wonder. I have two laptops, one 10 years old and
> one
> 8 years old. Both still have the original LiIon batteries, still going
> strong. OK, capacity is down a bit on the older one, but it's still
> enough
> to run for close to an hour - though we seldom use it on battery for more
> than a few minutes at a time.
>
> Maybe these are the exceptions?
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
> or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
> To send a private message, please use evadm at drmm period net.
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
On Jul 1, 2006, at 1:00 PM, Mike Willmon wrote:
> Deltran 10 Bank Battery Tender thats built as 1 unit.
> http://www.batterymart.com/battery.mv?p=DEL-021-0134
> I remember seeing mention a ways back about people using this one, but
> I don't remember if they had to isolate their batteries
> prior to hookng up this charger.
>
This unit is 10 isolated 2 amp chargers in one fan cooled box. You do
not have to separate the batteries before charging them. I bought one
of those chargers from Batterymart. Its currently finish charging the
10 Optimas in my EV Buggy. 2 amps would be a slow way to bulk charge
(about a 1 mph charge rate.) My unit has been doing a fine job of
bringing all the batteries up to 14.7 (+/- 0.01) volts and holding them
there, then dropping back to a 13.4 volt float mode until unplugged.
Paul G.
From: "Paul G." <paul-g@...>
> This unit is 10 isolated 2 amp chargers in one fan cooled box. You do
> not have to separate the batteries before charging them. I bought one
> of those chargers from Batterymart. Its currently finish charging the
> 10 Optimas in my EV Buggy.
> Paul G.
I'm glad ya'll posted those units. I hadn't seen them before, but I'll keep
them in mind. I'm assuming it'll charging an individual batt when it reaches
its peak, the keep charging the others, correct? Does it have indicator
lights to show you which batts are still charging? (That could be a useful
indicator when one batt is "going" before it jeopardizes your pack. I
learned that the hard way on my first pack.)
I do a similar charge with my toys. I'd bring the pack up with the bulk
charger, then occasionally charge each separately. Something like this could
save a *lot* of time. I seemed to find I could stuff a few more electrons in
the batts that way... each going to its peak. For the ebike, it meant 5%
further range.
Hi,
Michaela Merz wrote:
> Is a charging voltage of about 2.6 Volts per cell during absorption stage
> considered to be ok? Or is it a bit on the 'to high' side? I just went and
> checked my (Zivan) charger again ...
Different manufacturers recommend different voltage limits during
charging. For example, Trojan recommends using 2.46 Volts per cell as
the normal charging limit for flooded batteries, while US Battery
recommends 2.58 Volts per cell. In my opinion 2.6 Volts per cell sounds
too high for normal charging especially since, IIRC, you live in Texas.
Note that both manufacturers quote these limits as being appropriate for
batteries at 80 degrees F, and seem to agree that you should add .028
volts per cell for every 10 degrees below 80 degrees F and subtract .028
volts per cell for every 10 degrees above 80 degrees F.
Hope that helps,
--
-Nick
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
http://go.DriveEV.com/http://www.ACEAA.org/
--------------------------
I just finished the first 100 miles on my '87 Cabriolet conversion
(www.evalbum.com/776). Cruising around town in near silence with the top
down is like being 16 again! Nothing will get rid of this EV grin :->
Now - Zilla voltage/current limits. I have an Impulse 9", Zilla 1K, and 19
x Trojan T105 (114V). Battery amps set to 225A for initial break-in and
testing. Sluggish, but I can usually keep up with traffic. Today I raised
the limit to 350A - what a difference! No more slowing on mild grades,
0-30MPH better than with the ICE. It's a completely different car...
Question 1: Why does my ammeter still peak at 225A during hard
acceleration? The batteries appear to be pushing much harder than before -
better acceleration, and the battery light flickers as pack voltage sags
below 99V. Before, I could peg the ammeter at 225A all day and only see
the battery light after driving 15+ miles.
Question 2: How many amps should I be pulling at a steady 30-45MPH? My
meter reads 100A while cruising at 30MPH or 45MPH on what I think is level
ground :) That seems high, but I still need to put low-friction oil in the
tranny, replace the springs/shocks, and find some decent tires.
Question 3: What would be good voltage/current limits for a decent pack
life? 225A is OK for the 30MPH speed limits, but there are some hills I
would like to climb faster than 12MPH. How about limits for voltage sag? I
currently have the battery warning light set at 99V (1.75V/cell), and the
"do not sag below this" limit at 1.3V/cell. I'm not worried about DOD, as
I rarely top 18 miles/day.
Thanks,
Adrian
Hi,
Michaela Merz wrote:
> Is a charging voltage of about 2.6 Volts per cell during absorption stage
> considered to be ok? Or is it a bit on the 'to high' side? I just went and
> checked my (Zivan) charger again ...
Different manufacturers recommend different voltage limits during
charging. For example, Trojan recommends using 2.46 Volts per cell as
the normal charging limit for flooded batteries, while US Battery
recommends 2.58 Volts per cell. In my opinion 2.6 Volts per cell sounds
too high for normal charging especially since, IIRC, you live in Texas.
Note that both manufacturers quote these limits as being appropriate for
batteries at 80 degrees F, and seem to agree that you should add .028
volts per cell for every 10 degrees below 80 degrees F and subtract .028
volts per cell for every 10 degrees above 80 degrees F.
Hope that helps,
--
-Nick
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
http://go.DriveEV.com/http://www.ACEAA.org/
--------------------------
G'day All
At 11:33 PM 1/07/06 -0700, Adrian wrote:
>I just finished the first 100 miles on my '87 Cabriolet conversion
>(www.evalbum.com/776). Cruising around town in near silence with the top
>down is like being 16 again! Nothing will get rid of this EV grin :->
Looks like fun.
>Now - Zilla voltage/current limits. I have an Impulse 9", Zilla 1K, and 19
>x Trojan T105 (114V). Battery amps set to 225A for initial break-in and
>testing. Sluggish, but I can usually keep up with traffic. Today I raised
>the limit to 350A - what a difference!
What is your motor limit settings (Voltage and current)? With a 9" you
should be pretty much able to set them to max. values.
I assume your ammeter is in the battery loop? It may be indicating that
your motor limits are crimping your style, as it were. If your motor
current limit is set the same as your battery limit, you may be getting the
motor to 350A, but at 64% duty cycle on the controller getting 225 battery
amps due to not having enough RPMs, or you may be allowing the RPMs to go
high enough that you are at WOT (wide open throttle) and unable to deliver
more current into the motor.
Hope this helps
[Technik] James
In a message dated 7/1/06 11:42:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time, mperry@...
writes:
<< Subj: Re: gang charger
Date: 7/1/06 11:42:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: mperry@... (Michael Perry)
Sender: owner-ev@...
Reply-to: ev@...
To: ev@...
From: "Paul G." <paul-g@...>
> This unit is 10 isolated 2 amp chargers in one fan cooled box. You do
> not have to separate the batteries before charging them. I bought one
> of those chargers from Batterymart. Its currently finish charging the
> 10 Optimas in my EV Buggy.
> Paul G.
I'm glad ya'll posted those units. I hadn't seen them before, but I'll keep
them in mind. I'm assuming it'll charging an individual batt when it reaches
its peak, the keep charging the others, correct? Does it have indicator
lights to show you which batts are still charging? (That could be a useful
indicator when one batt is "going" before it jeopardizes your pack. I
learned that the hard way on my first pack.)
I do a similar charge with my toys. I'd bring the pack up with the bulk
charger, then occasionally charge each separately. Something like this could
save a *lot* of time. I seemed to find I could stuff a few more electrons in
the batts that way... each going to its peak. For the ebike, it meant 5%
further range. >>
I have used 3 Deltran 10 bank chargers on the CE dragster for the last 4
years for finish charging at home.I use my 18000 watt bulk charger at the track
in
between each run for quick 4-5 minute charges.One can adjust the trimmers on
the pc bds.to obtain a higher float charge.I use 13.70 volts on my hawkers.
Dennis Berube
I also do something similar with by GEM Car short bed utility. Stating the
obvious, it is 72 volts (6 - 12 volt batteries). Instead of the onboard
Zivan NG-1 , which constantly gives me problems, I use six 7 amp ACI
Superchargers (model 1214). ACI's sister company is SONEIL.
They are similar in function to the DELTRAN Powercharger. They look like a
notebook computer power supply. They are a 7 amp constant rate smart
chargers. It works really well, I drive about 20 miles a day, I just plug
them in at night and go the next day. They tend to the needs of each
individual battery instead the series. At $55 each, I can get six for less
that a replacement Zivan.
They are mounted in a diamond plate utility box on the bed of the GEM car. A
word of caution, they get really hot so mounting location is a
consideration.
Personal opinion - I think the DELTRAN Powerchargers are more sturdy for
onboard mounting but they are only 5 amp each and cost about $90 each. But
the DELTRAN has a 2 year warranty and ACI is lifetime. I have had to replace
2 of the ACI's under warranty.
Just thoughts
David
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
Behalf Of Michael Perry
Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 1:40 AM
To: ev@...
Subject: Re: gang charger
From: "Paul G." <paul-g@...>
> This unit is 10 isolated 2 amp chargers in one fan cooled box. You do
> not have to separate the batteries before charging them. I bought one
> of those chargers from Batterymart. Its currently finish charging the
> 10 Optimas in my EV Buggy.
> Paul G.
I'm glad ya'll posted those units. I hadn't seen them before, but I'll keep
them in mind. I'm assuming it'll charging an individual batt when it reaches
its peak, the keep charging the others, correct? Does it have indicator
lights to show you which batts are still charging? (That could be a useful
indicator when one batt is "going" before it jeopardizes your pack. I
learned that the hard way on my first pack.)
I do a similar charge with my toys. I'd bring the pack up with the bulk
charger, then occasionally charge each separately. Something like this could
save a *lot* of time. I seemed to find I could stuff a few more electrons in
the batts that way... each going to its peak. For the ebike, it meant 5%
further range.
Congratulations on your first 100 miles.
Since you are running only 114 volts, the amps will be a bit high and
the performance will be a bit sluggish on the top end.
The reason you didn't see any change is that the controller
is already full on. Once the motor voltage reaches the battery
voltage, the controller is simply making a direct connection between
them. You may change the current limit, but it makes no difference
because you are already limited by the voltage.
If you want to get the motor to pull harder, you will
probably have to shift up a gear. This will lower the motor RPM and
at the same time, lower the back EMF of the motor, allowing the
batteries to push in more amps.
Also, if you have set the battery low voltage limit to, say,
99 volts, this will limit the current you can draw from them. There
is some current that corresponds to 99 volts. It could well be 225 amps.
Bill Dube'
At 12:33 AM 7/2/2006, you wrote:
>I just finished the first 100 miles on my '87 Cabriolet conversion
>(www.evalbum.com/776). Cruising around town in near silence with the top
>down is like being 16 again! Nothing will get rid of this EV grin :->
>
>Now - Zilla voltage/current limits. I have an Impulse 9", Zilla 1K, and 19
>x Trojan T105 (114V). Battery amps set to 225A for initial break-in and
>testing. Sluggish, but I can usually keep up with traffic. Today I raised
>the limit to 350A - what a difference! No more slowing on mild grades,
>0-30MPH better than with the ICE. It's a completely different car...
>
>Question 1: Why does my ammeter still peak at 225A during hard
>acceleration? The batteries appear to be pushing much harder than before -
>better acceleration, and the battery light flickers as pack voltage sags
>below 99V. Before, I could peg the ammeter at 225A all day and only see
>the battery light after driving 15+ miles.
>
>Question 2: How many amps should I be pulling at a steady 30-45MPH? My
>meter reads 100A while cruising at 30MPH or 45MPH on what I think is level
>ground :) That seems high, but I still need to put low-friction oil in the
>tranny, replace the springs/shocks, and find some decent tires.
>
>Question 3: What would be good voltage/current limits for a decent pack
>life? 225A is OK for the 30MPH speed limits, but there are some hills I
>would like to climb faster than 12MPH. How about limits for voltage sag? I
>currently have the battery warning light set at 99V (1.75V/cell), and the
>"do not sag below this" limit at 1.3V/cell. I'm not worried about DOD, as
>I rarely top 18 miles/day.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Adrian
>
Hi EVerybody;
Sorry if this is a tad off topic, I tried to come up on the Electrac List.
But not sure if it did? So I'll mention it here, too. A E-12 looking for a
loving home in Milford CT. Friend of a friend sort of thing. I gave the guy
batteries a few years ago, so I KNOW it will need new ones.Has the plow,
snowthrower and mowing deck. I have never actually met the tracter, so I can't
say what shape it is in.Often, sorry to say, in the Electrac Thing a "Good,
clean one," in one guyz eyes is light melting scrap, in reality
So........ hit me back for names an' numbers if yur interested.
Seeya
Bob
Be mindful that happiness is not based on possessions, power, or prestiege, but
on relationships with people you love and respect.
In a message dated 7/2/06 6:47:08 AM Pacific Daylight Time, sherritze@...
writes:
<< Personal opinion - I think the DELTRAN Powerchargers are more sturdy for
onboard mounting but they are only 5 amp each and cost about $90 each. But
the DELTRAN has a 2 year warranty and ACI is lifetime. I have had to replace
2 of the ACI's under warranty >>
Deltrans newest units have a 3 year warrnty and operate on 50 to 60 cycle and
from 100 to 250 volts D Berube
EVs have a large advantage over ICE vehicles because they do not have the
tremendous heat load under the hood from burning fuels. As a result, we
can get by with a relatively small compressor and motor. 1 HP is the
perfect size for an EV AC system, it is strong enough not to stall under
the highest load and yet it is not too large where you begin to waste
energy. The reason you see motors of 120 volts and up is because to get 1
hp (746 watts) you only need to supply (746/120=)6 amps. The problem with
a 12 v motor you will need to supply it 60amps! to get 1hp out.
Jimmy
> > From: "Jody Dewey" <jodydewey@...>
> To: <ev@...>
> Subject: RE: air conditioning for ev's
> Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 22:05:50 -0400
>
> I just went on surpluscenter.com and found a bunch of motors that could
> easily drive the cars AC compressor off of 24 or 12V. That might be a
> very
> easy way of doing it.
On 2 Jul 2006 at 12:42, David Sharpe wrote:
> I have an old compaq laptop (one of the first) which has a
> dead Li battery.
OK, you have an old laptop with a dead battery. I have an old laptop with a
working battery. Interesting; but statistically, neither supports any argument.
My sole point, perhaps not so well made, was that many factors play a role
in a battery's life expectancy.
> I didnt mention "cells" in this email David ...
True, but I don't see what that has to do with anything. A battery comprises
cells, of course. I guess I don't understand why one would need to make a
distinction between a battery and its component cells in this context. What
am I missing here? <scratches head>
d
Danny Miller wrote:
>Possible ways to reduce the need to extremely high cooling capacity:
>1. Insulate roof, walls, maybe even floor
>2. Paint it white
>3. Tint the windows other than the windshield
>4. Automatic or otherwise very convenient shades for all the windows.
Or make the windows double pane, like houses and buildings. Single
pane windows let tremendous amounts of heat through.
>5. An exhaust fan to remove the high heat it absorbs being in the sun.
If you're going to use a blower to force inside air temperature to match
outside temperature, then insulation becomes pointless.
--
Lee Hart
I suppose I should comment - seeing as I have an electric beach buggy
:-)
On Jun 30, 2006, at 5:41 PM, David Sherritze wrote:
> I have what I believe is an original Myers Manx on a 59 VW pan with
> 1965
An original Manx body is quite desirable. I suggest you visit
<http://www.manxclub.com> for more information about how to identify a
real Manx body.
> front end and transaxle. The engine is a 1600 Dual port which has long
> since seen better days. I intend to pull it and remove the flywheel and
> clutch if it is salvageable. Will probably lighten the flywheel in a
> future
> project. I can salvage the rest of the engine thru a local VW club.
> It was
> originally a Blue metal flake and has been painted several times. It
> is
> currently a medium Pink, which my 15 year old daughter is very
> insistent
> that it stays Pink when repainted. My 13 year old son wants Yellow or
> Orange
> (Electric colors).
Pink - ouch <G> Mine is a solid medium/light purple. Its in the EV
photo album and a few other places online.
>
> I want to keep the vehicle simple and light for performance and range
> around
> town. Must have seating for 4. This might make battery placement a
> challenge. Town is about 6 miles end to end and my work is about 8-9
> miles
> one way. So I should be able to go any where locally in it. It is
> about 8
> miles to the beach we frequent. Speed limits on local roads are most
> 35 and
> 45 MPH.
>
> For now I just want to get it running for around town, I can worry
> about the
> cosmetics later. Better to have an ugly running vehicle than a pretty
> non-running one. And we all know no project is ever finished, always
> some
> other improvement
>
> Hopefully I have realistic expectations.
Well, I can do 20 miles with 10 Optimas - not often! That is very
close to a 100% discharge. The buggy body has all the areo qualities of
a brick, range improves dramatically as you slow down. I should be able
to drive 50 miles to 100% DOD at 25 mph! Since you are looking to
drive it as reasonable speeds (similar to my range tests) it is
possible to do what you want. You will need to hide around 800 pounds
of lead. An electric buggy can weigh around 1100 lb. complete with
everything except the batteries (mine is right at 1000 lb. plus 420 lb.
of Optimas.)
Where to put the batteries depends on what kind you use (size and
watering access if required.) I stuffed 2 up front in the fuel tank
area, 2 in back (where the 12v battery is now and on the other side),
and sunk the floors 3 inches to put 3 on each side. A floor raised to
the top of the frame tunnel is good for the rear seat its higher. Other
locations that come to mind are right behind the axles, the rear of the
rear seat area (those seats tend to be really deep), and along the
sides of the body outside in some brush guard type frames.
There is at least one more EV buggy out there, owned by Scott Hull.
Information about is on his web page at
<http://www.m-cad.com/dp/ev/index.html>. My web page has some
additional pictures of my buggy:
<http://paul-g.home.comcast.net/Buggyindex.html> (old web page, the
Pickup has been sold.)
Paul G.
EV Digest 5616
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Hummmm Look at this. Anyone "seen" one?
by Robert Salem <e1ectrk@...>
2) Re: Sandusky Radio Network Interview - A whole half HOUR
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <primobassoon@...>
3) Re: gang charger
by "Paul G." <paul-g@...>
4) Re: Air conditioning gains
by "Jay Caplan" <uniqueproducts@...>
5) Re: e-volks
by "jmygann" <jmygann@...>
6) EV Buggy - RE: e-volks
by "David Sherritze" <sherritze@...>
7) Re: EV Buggy - RE: e-volks
by "jmygann" <jmygann@...>
8) Re: My Cabby lives! (Zilla voltage/current limit question)
by "BillDube@..." <billdube@...>
9) Re: gang charger
by "Michael Perry" <mperry@...>
10) Re: Air conditioning gains
by "jmygann" <jmygann@...>
11) remove
by Jason <scrumpyv@...>
12) RE: gang charger
by "David Sherritze" <sherritze@...>
13) My Cabby lives! (Zilla voltage/current limit question)
by Jeff Shanab <jshanab@...>
14) RE: gang charger
by "Jody Dewey" <jodydewey@...>
15) Re: e-volks
by "Death to All Spammers" <cowtown@...>
16) RE: Air conditioning gains
by "Jody Dewey" <jodydewey@...>
17) RE: gang charger
by "Jody Dewey" <jodydewey@...>
18) Re: gang charger
by Matthew Milliron <rmm@...>
19) RE: gang charger
by "David Sherritze" <sherritze@...>
20) Re: gang charger
by "Michael Perry" <mperry@...>
21) Re: [seva] Sandusky Radio Network Interview - A whole half HOUR
by Steven Lough <stevenslough@...>
22) DC Motor torque calculations
by mdrobnak@...
23) Re: Air conditioning gains
by David Dymaxion <david_dymaxion@...>
24) Re: Air conditioning gains
by Danny Miller <dannym@...>
25) Re: Sandusky Radio Network Interview - A whole half HOUR
by Lightning Ryan <ev@...>
26) Re: pml's new concept car... can it be as good as it sounds?
by "ohnojoe" <ohnojoe@...>
27) Scientific American Grid Article
by "Bill Dennis" <wjdennis@...>
28) Re: Dump Charger
by "Robert Chew" <forward_biased@...>
Hi all.
Would, could people pleaseee put what the message is about in the
subject ??
Subjects like: Wouldn't this be nice
don't tellyou anything and for searches later are useless.
Robert Salem
David Roden wrote:
> On 2 Jul 2006 at 8:03, David Sharpe wrote:
>
>> The Li battery will not last 10years due to
>> calendar degradation.
>
> I read this often, and wonder. I have two laptops, one 10 years old and one
> 8 years old. Both still have the original LiIon batteries, still going
> strong. OK, capacity is down a bit on the older one, but it's still enough
> to run for close to an hour - though we seldom use it on battery for more
> than a few minutes at a time.
>
> Maybe these are the exceptions?
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
> or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
> To send a private message, please use evadm at drmm period net.
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
Uh what program/interviewer is this? NPR??? Maybe an archeive
podcast/stream. Morning Edition has many resources as well as NPR.
Lawrence Rhodes......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven Lough" <stevenslough@...>
To: <seva@...>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR"
<ev@...>
Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 4:01 PM
Subject: Sandusky Radio Network Interview - A whole half HOUR
> Hi Folks:
>
> It was a great interview. Got in all the GOOD stuff
>
> EV - Drag Racing
> FOOL Cells
> Plug-In-Hybarids
> NEV's
> Conversions
> Efficiency Factors...
> You name it.
> and SEVA SEVA SEVA over and over again....
> OH and "Who Killed the Electric CAR !"
>
> Ryan (our Web Guy ) has the MP3 file. Its a little under 28.6 Megs...
> but he is trying to SHRINK it even more, to be put UP on the SEVA web
> site....
>
> But if you want to hear it Almost LIVE...EARLY (sorry)
>
> Tune to: KKNW 1150 AM at 7am Sunday morning 7/2/06
> or KQMV 92.5 FM at 6:30 am Sunday morning 7/2/06
> or KIXI at 880 AM at 5:30 am Sunday morming 7/2/06
> or KWJZ at 98.9 FM at 6 am Sunday morning 7/2/06
>
> BOY !!! Wish these Air Times were not so EARLY... but Its still
> great to get a whole Half Hour of air time FREE !!
>
> Happy Listening...
>
> PS: For the Out of Towners... I Dont know if the STREAM on the Net or
> not... You could look em up...
>
>
> The show airs on Saturday morning on KKNW 1150 AM at 7am, and Sunday
> morning on KQMV 92.5 FM at 6:30 am, KIXI 880 AM at 5:30am, KWJZ 98.9 FM
> at 6am.
>
> --
> Steven S. Lough, Pres.
> Seattle EV Association
> 6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
> Seattle, WA 98115-7230
> Day: 206 850-8535
> Eve: 206 524-1351
> e-mail: stevenslough@...
> web: http://www.seattleeva.org
>
On Jul 1, 2006, at 11:39 PM, Michael Perry wrote:
> I'm glad ya'll posted those units. I hadn't seen them before, but I'll
> keep
> them in mind. I'm assuming it'll charging an individual batt when it
> reaches
> its peak, the keep charging the others, correct? Does it have indicator
> lights to show you which batts are still charging? (That could be a
> useful
> indicator when one batt is "going" before it jeopardizes your pack. I
> learned that the hard way on my first pack.)
>
Each of the 10 chargers has 2, 5mm LEDs, a red and a green one. Bulk
charge lights the red LED. Voltage regulated (14.7v) charging lights
the red LED and blinks the green LED. When a charger finishes and drops
back to 13.4 volt float the green LED is lit (the red LED is off.) Each
of the 10 chargers operates independently of the others. The 10 bank
Battery Tender is made in the USA (many of the Deltran chargers are
not.)
Paul G.
When I checked with a local window tint guy recently, he told me that 3M is
coming out with a new film called Comfortaire sometimes this summer. It will
allow 40% light transmission but block 96% of heat transmission. Current
tint films block about half of the heat gain.
I haven't confirmed this yet, but he says the salesman brought a sample in
and they couldn't feel a heat lamp through it when they tested it
Jay
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <leeahart@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 10:12 AM
Subject: Re: Air conditioning gains
> Danny Miller wrote:
> >Possible ways to reduce the need to extremely high cooling capacity:
> >1. Insulate roof, walls, maybe even floor
> >2. Paint it white
> >3. Tint the windows other than the windshield
> >4. Automatic or otherwise very convenient shades for all the windows.
>
> Or make the windows double pane, like houses and buildings. Single
> pane windows let tremendous amounts of heat through.
>
> >5. An exhaust fan to remove the high heat it absorbs being in the sun.
>
> If you're going to use a blower to force inside air temperature to match
> outside temperature, then insulation becomes pointless.
> --
> Lee Hart
>
So a 48 volt system is ...?
--- In ev-list-archive@yahoogroups.com, "Lawrence Rhodes" <ev@...>
wrote:
>
> I'd use resting voltage. If 83v is full. 72v is dead. You will be
able to
> get these figures a few minutes after use. Figure 20% low while in
use.
I have seen your buggy and I really like the clean lines, (but I am not sure
about the neon). I used to have a magenta buggy.
I have many of the same questions when it comes to battery placement.
According to my limited knowledge, lead will give better range, where as
Optima's and Orbital's give better performance. If I put lead batteries
under the front, I cannot get to them easily to hydrate them as the front
does not easily open. The gentleman with the red buggy and the batteries
down the side, does not have as clean looks, but it is very functional and
kind of goes with his off road theme.
I drive a NEV about 20-25 miles a day, and this is my first low-budget EV
project (an existing car and the lowest level e-volks kit). So I am going to
play with tired Trojan 30XHS batteries in 36, 48, 60 and 72 volt
configurations as a learning experiment (I understand I will have little
range). I have had VW based vehicles most of my life, so this was a natural
fit and I happen to own the non-running one. Using current technology, I
would use like to use 72 volts of 6 volt lead batteries and add an ALLTRAX
7245 controller. But where do I put 12 - 6 volt batteries (I don't really
expect an answer) This would give me an old school errand runner when I have
some combination of our family of 4. However the battery placement is the
classic challenge for all EV-ers. I could possibly put the lead under the
hood with one of those watering kits, but maybe in a later project.
We will see as the project evolves. Right now I have been waiting on
e-volks for about a month and they say it will be a few more weeks. I have
cleaned a spot in the garage. The buggy has been pushed in and I am
removing the body and engine over the 4th.
Even if it never completely meets expectations, my 13 year old son and I can
build a few memories of working on a project together.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
Behalf Of Paul G.
Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 11:22 AM
To: ev@...
Subject: Re: e-volks
I suppose I should comment - seeing as I have an electric beach buggy
:-)
On Jun 30, 2006, at 5:41 PM, David Sherritze wrote:
> I have what I believe is an original Myers Manx on a 59 VW pan with
> 1965
An original Manx body is quite desirable. I suggest you visit
<http://www.manxclub.com> for more information about how to identify a
real Manx body.
> front end and transaxle. The engine is a 1600 Dual port which has long
> since seen better days. I intend to pull it and remove the flywheel and
> clutch if it is salvageable. Will probably lighten the flywheel in a
> future
> project. I can salvage the rest of the engine thru a local VW club.
> It was
> originally a Blue metal flake and has been painted several times. It
> is
> currently a medium Pink, which my 15 year old daughter is very
> insistent
> that it stays Pink when repainted. My 13 year old son wants Yellow or
> Orange
> (Electric colors).
Pink - ouch <G> Mine is a solid medium/light purple. Its in the EV
photo album and a few other places online.
>
> I want to keep the vehicle simple and light for performance and range
> around
> town. Must have seating for 4. This might make battery placement a
> challenge. Town is about 6 miles end to end and my work is about 8-9
> miles
> one way. So I should be able to go any where locally in it. It is
> about 8
> miles to the beach we frequent. Speed limits on local roads are most
> 35 and
> 45 MPH.
>
> For now I just want to get it running for around town, I can worry
> about the
> cosmetics later. Better to have an ugly running vehicle than a pretty
> non-running one. And we all know no project is ever finished, always
> some
> other improvement
>
> Hopefully I have realistic expectations.
Well, I can do 20 miles with 10 Optimas - not often! That is very
close to a 100% discharge. The buggy body has all the areo qualities of
a brick, range improves dramatically as you slow down. I should be able
to drive 50 miles to 100% DOD at 25 mph! Since you are looking to
drive it as reasonable speeds (similar to my range tests) it is
possible to do what you want. You will need to hide around 800 pounds
of lead. An electric buggy can weigh around 1100 lb. complete with
everything except the batteries (mine is right at 1000 lb. plus 420 lb.
of Optimas.)
Where to put the batteries depends on what kind you use (size and
watering access if required.) I stuffed 2 up front in the fuel tank
area, 2 in back (where the 12v battery is now and on the other side),
and sunk the floors 3 inches to put 3 on each side. A floor raised to
the top of the frame tunnel is good for the rear seat its higher. Other
locations that come to mind are right behind the axles, the rear of the
rear seat area (those seats tend to be really deep), and along the
sides of the body outside in some brush guard type frames.
There is at least one more EV buggy out there, owned by Scott Hull.
Information about is on his web page at
<http://www.m-cad.com/dp/ev/index.html>. My web page has some
additional pictures of my buggy:
<http://paul-g.home.comcast.net/Buggyindex.html> (old web page, the
Pickup has been sold.)
Paul G.
Some examples ........
http://www.driveelectric.org/cars/text/buggy_1.htmhttp://www.megawattmotorworks.com/display.asp?
dismode=article&artid=180
http://www.jmu.edu/montpelier/2001Summer/FP_WattsUpWithTheElectri.sht
ml
https://dm3electrics.com/
--- In ev-list-archive@yahoogroups.com, "David Sherritze" <ev@...>
wrote:
>
> I have seen your buggy and I really like the clean lines, (but I
am not sure
> about the neon). I used to have a magenta buggy.
>
> I have many of the same questions when it comes to battery
placement.
>
> According to my limited knowledge, lead will give better range,
where as
> Optima's and Orbital's give better performance. If I put lead
batteries
> under the front, I cannot get to them easily to hydrate them as
the front
> does not easily open. The gentleman with the red buggy and the
batteries
> down the side, does not have as clean looks, but it is very
functional and
> kind of goes with his off road theme.
>
> I drive a NEV about 20-25 miles a day, and this is my first low-
budget EV
> project (an existing car and the lowest level e-volks kit). So I
am going to
> play with tired Trojan 30XHS batteries in 36, 48, 60 and 72 volt
> configurations as a learning experiment (I understand I will have
little
> range). I have had VW based vehicles most of my life, so this was
a natural
> fit and I happen to own the non-running one. Using current
technology, I
> would use like to use 72 volts of 6 volt lead batteries and add an
ALLTRAX
> 7245 controller. But where do I put 12 - 6 volt batteries (I don't
really
> expect an answer) This would give me an old school errand runner
when I have
> some combination of our family of 4. However the battery placement
is the
> classic challenge for all EV-ers. I could possibly put the lead
under the
> hood with one of those watering kits, but maybe in a later project.
>
> We will see as the project evolves. Right now I have been waiting
on
> e-volks for about a month and they say it will be a few more
weeks. I have
> cleaned a spot in the garage. The buggy has been pushed in and I
am
> removing the body and engine over the 4th.
>
> Even if it never completely meets expectations, my 13 year old son
and I can
> build a few memories of working on a project together.
Congratulations on your first 100 miles.
Since you are running only 114 volts, the amps will be a bit high and
the performance will be a bit sluggish on the top end.
The reason you didn't see any change is that the controller
is already full on. Once the motor voltage reaches the battery
voltage, the controller is simply making a direct connection between
them. You may change the current limit, but it makes no difference
because you are already limited by the voltage.
If you want to get the motor to pull harder, you will
probably have to shift up a gear. This will lower the motor RPM and
at the same time, lower the back EMF of the motor, allowing the
batteries to push in more amps.
Also, if you have set the battery low voltage limit to, say,
99 volts, this will limit the current you can draw from them. There
is some current that corresponds to 99 volts. It could well be 225 amps.
Bill Dube'
At 12:33 AM 7/2/2006, you wrote:
>I just finished the first 100 miles on my '87 Cabriolet conversion
>(www.evalbum.com/776). Cruising around town in near silence with the top
>down is like being 16 again! Nothing will get rid of this EV grin :->
>
>Now - Zilla voltage/current limits. I have an Impulse 9", Zilla 1K, and 19
>x Trojan T105 (114V). Battery amps set to 225A for initial break-in and
>testing. Sluggish, but I can usually keep up with traffic. Today I raised
>the limit to 350A - what a difference! No more slowing on mild grades,
>0-30MPH better than with the ICE. It's a completely different car...
>
>Question 1: Why does my ammeter still peak at 225A during hard
>acceleration? The batteries appear to be pushing much harder than before -
>better acceleration, and the battery light flickers as pack voltage sags
>below 99V. Before, I could peg the ammeter at 225A all day and only see
>the battery light after driving 15+ miles.
>
>Question 2: How many amps should I be pulling at a steady 30-45MPH? My
>meter reads 100A while cruising at 30MPH or 45MPH on what I think is level
>ground :) That seems high, but I still need to put low-friction oil in the
>tranny, replace the springs/shocks, and find some decent tires.
>
>Question 3: What would be good voltage/current limits for a decent pack
>life? 225A is OK for the 30MPH speed limits, but there are some hills I
>would like to climb faster than 12MPH. How about limits for voltage sag? I
>currently have the battery warning light set at 99V (1.75V/cell), and the
>"do not sag below this" limit at 1.3V/cell. I'm not worried about DOD, as
>I rarely top 18 miles/day.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Adrian
Interesting. And if one unit is still charging in the morning, you know that
batt could be dead.
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Sherritze" <sherritze@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 6:00 AM
Subject: RE: gang charger
> I also do something similar with by GEM Car short bed utility. Stating the
> obvious, it is 72 volts (6 - 12 volt batteries). Instead of the onboard
> Zivan NG-1 , which constantly gives me problems, I use six 7 amp ACI
> Superchargers (model 1214). ACI's sister company is SONEIL.
It is like designing a controlled temp living envionment to live in .
--- In ev-list-archive@yahoogroups.com, Lee Hart <ev@...> wrote:
>
> Danny Miller wrote:
> >Possible ways to reduce the need to extremely high cooling
capacity:
> >1. Insulate roof, walls, maybe even floor
> >2. Paint it white
> >3. Tint the windows other than the windshield
> >4. Automatic or otherwise very convenient shades for all the
windows.
>
> Or make the windows double pane, like houses and buildings. Single
> pane windows let tremendous amounts of heat through.
>
> >5. An exhaust fan to remove the high heat it absorbs being in
the sun.
>
> If you're going to use a blower to force inside air temperature to
match
> outside temperature, then insulation becomes pointless.
> --
> Lee Hart
>
---------------------------------
Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
Also if one battery goes bad, I can replace it individually.
As I am not taking care of the series
I note that some chargers turn off before others. This solution keeps each
battery at its peak, every day.
Now, I only have 6 - 12 volt batteries, this is not some 40 battery setup
where a different solution might be more applicable.
An observation on bigger voltage systems is that these individual chargers
cost the same as control systems (i.e. .. Power Cheks and others) and I
don't have the additional cost of large chargers.
However these are only 7 amp constant rate chargers and are not going to
bulk charge fast. But the do work for opportunity charges and recharge my
130AH Lead Acid batteries overnight.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
Behalf Of Michael Perry
Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 4:39 PM
To: ev@...
Subject: Re: gang charger
Interesting. And if one unit is still charging in the morning, you know that
batt could be dead.
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Sherritze" <sherritze@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 6:00 AM
Subject: RE: gang charger
> I also do something similar with by GEM Car short bed utility. Stating the
> obvious, it is 72 volts (6 - 12 volt batteries). Instead of the onboard
> Zivan NG-1 , which constantly gives me problems, I use six 7 amp ACI
> Superchargers (model 1214). ACI's sister company is SONEIL.
In reguards to question 2 , We may want ask how many watts.
Looking at the math for 100A at 114V (I assume battery amps are quoted)
is 11400 watts. If we did this for an hour, we would use 11.4 kwh and
travel 40 miles 11,400 wh/40 = 285 Wh/mile. Seems reasonable, seems
good actually.
I pull about 50 amps but with a higher pack voltage (288) It works out
to about 360 wh/mile ( I need alignment)
watts is watts (ignoring differences in IR^2 losses)
In my case The important setting is the motor voltage limit of 170V, A
288V pack of AGMs can toast a commutator. Your pack voltage makes this
a non-issue. I think 400A is the max allowed for floodies and shortens
they're life if done repeatedly. If you can raise the pack voltage to
156Volts from 114 that 11400 watts would then be 73 amps instead of 100
amps and the 350A @ 99 limit would be 256A @ 135V (assumming equal sag).
In reality, it would sag less or you would just use more and accelerate
faster.
As a precaution you might want to put a diode in the positive lead of each
charger to the battery. That way current can't come back from an adjacent
battery. Have you calculated how much input current is going to be drawn
with 8 chargers all hooked up?
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
Behalf Of Matthew Milliron
Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 10:25 PM
To: ev@...
Subject: Re: gang charger
On Sat, 1 Jul 2006 17:07:28 -0400, you wrote:
>How many are you going to use?
I bought 8. I would rather bought the Deltran but it only charges
at 2 amps.
> I think if you hook chargers up to each
>individual battery you are going to get cross interference from them. I
>would think if you used one or two with a rotator circuit and relays you
>could keep them separate.
>
As I understand it. As long as the individual units are isolated
from the AC side of things. I should be able to charge my series
string.
>
> I have made the decision to make a gang-charger. Walmart had
>Schumaker 12/8/2 Speed chargers for less than $40.
>I plan to make something like this:
>http://www.batterymart.com/battery.mv?p=DEL-021-0134
>
> These are isolated and have a 12/8/2 amp charge profile with
>anti-sulfation settings.
>http://www.batterychargers.com/itemlist.cfm?cid=2
Matt Milliron
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/702
My daughter named it, "Pikachu". It's yellow and black,
electric and contains Japanese parts, so I went with it.
> I'd use resting voltage. If 83v is full. 72v is dead. You will be
able to
> get these figures a few minutes after use. Figure 20% low while in use.
> More at freeway speeds. Lawrence Rhodes....
>
Yes, but 83V for a 72V system is over 2.3V/cell. For floodies, resting
at full charge is more like 2.1-2.15V/cell, for sealed 2.2-2.25V/cell,
adjusted for temperature.
I would definately buy that stuff if it does come out. My Nissan has a
black interior - any little bit will help.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
Behalf Of Jay Caplan
Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 1:11 PM
To: Lee Hart; ev@...
Subject: Re: Air conditioning gains
When I checked with a local window tint guy recently, he told me that 3M is
coming out with a new film called Comfortaire sometimes this summer. It will
allow 40% light transmission but block 96% of heat transmission. Current
tint films block about half of the heat gain.
I haven't confirmed this yet, but he says the salesman brought a sample in
and they couldn't feel a heat lamp through it when they tested it
Jay
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <leeahart@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 10:12 AM
Subject: Re: Air conditioning gains
> Danny Miller wrote:
> >Possible ways to reduce the need to extremely high cooling capacity:
> >1. Insulate roof, walls, maybe even floor
> >2. Paint it white
> >3. Tint the windows other than the windshield
> >4. Automatic or otherwise very convenient shades for all the windows.
>
> Or make the windows double pane, like houses and buildings. Single
> pane windows let tremendous amounts of heat through.
>
> >5. An exhaust fan to remove the high heat it absorbs being in the sun.
>
> If you're going to use a blower to force inside air temperature to match
> outside temperature, then insulation becomes pointless.
> --
> Lee Hart
>
But you have to separate the batteries for it to work right? Do you
separate them every night? Sounds like a formula for wearing out the
connections.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
Behalf Of Michael Perry
Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 5:39 PM
To: ev@...
Subject: Re: gang charger
Interesting. And if one unit is still charging in the morning, you know that
batt could be dead.
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Sherritze" <sherritze@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 6:00 AM
Subject: RE: gang charger
> I also do something similar with by GEM Car short bed utility. Stating the
> obvious, it is 72 volts (6 - 12 volt batteries). Instead of the onboard
> Zivan NG-1 , which constantly gives me problems, I use six 7 amp ACI
> Superchargers (model 1214). ACI's sister company is SONEIL.
On Sun, 2 Jul 2006 21:31:26 -0400, you wrote:
>As a precaution you might want to put a diode in the positive lead of each
>charger to the battery. That way current can't come back from an adjacent
>battery.
I think this is a great idea. An inexpensive "just in case".
> Have you calculated how much input current is going to be drawn
>with 8 chargers all hooked up?
I am told less than 20 amps, plus a 120 volt muffin fan for
ventilation/cooling.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
>Behalf Of Matthew Milliron
>Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 10:25 PM
>To: ev@...
>Subject: Re: gang charger
>
>
>On Sat, 1 Jul 2006 17:07:28 -0400, you wrote:
>
>>How many are you going to use?
> I bought 8. I would rather bought the Deltran but it only charges
>at 2 amps.
>
Matt Milliron
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/702
My daughter named it, "Pikachu". It's yellow and black,
electric and contains Japanese parts, so I went with it.
No the chargers have built in protection for reverse polarity, short
circuit, A/C surge, over-voltage and over-current.
I contacted the company and asked about using them on a series. They told me
just to hook them up and use them.
They are permanently installed in the vehicle with an exterior rated
multi-outlet strip. I have been using this set-up since Feb with no
problems. I just drive then plug them in.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
Behalf Of Jody Dewey
Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 8:53 PM
To: ev@...
Subject: RE: gang charger
But you have to separate the batteries for it to work right? Do you
separate them every night? Sounds like a formula for wearing out the
connections.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
Behalf Of Michael Perry
Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 5:39 PM
To: ev@...
Subject: Re: gang charger
Interesting. And if one unit is still charging in the morning, you know that
batt could be dead.
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Sherritze" <sherritze@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 6:00 AM
Subject: RE: gang charger
> I also do something similar with by GEM Car short bed utility. Stating the
> obvious, it is 72 volts (6 - 12 volt batteries). Instead of the onboard
> Zivan NG-1 , which constantly gives me problems, I use six 7 amp ACI
> Superchargers (model 1214). ACI's sister company is SONEIL.
From: "Jody Dewey" <jodydewey@...>
> But you have to separate the batteries for it to work right? Do you
> separate them every night? Sounds like a formula for wearing out the
> connections.
Not if you connect only to the terminals and don't short out. I have my
ebike wired this way. For bulk charging, I charge across the pack. I have
another connection from each individual batt, hooked into a plastic panel. I
plug my 12V charger into each connector. (Not necessary with this new unit.)
Where I ran into probs was when a can of tire sealer rolled across the
plastic panel... shorting out between 2 batts. It arced 36V across the can.
(A good thing the can didn't blow up.)
Thank You Ryan... Sounds GREAT... All the folks from the
EVDL who want to HEAR the interview , but were unable to connect with
local radio stations ( at an UNHOLY early hour ) can get the interview
now... thanks to you
Ryan Fulcher wrote:
> Ok, I managed to re-encode the interview as a mono stream which is half
> the size, Here: http://www.seattleeva.org/wiki/EVents_2006_07_02 15Meg
>
> Can anyone find out if these stations/programs have archives?
>
> L8r
> Ryan
>
> Steven Lough wrote:
>
>>Hi Folks:
>>It was a great interview. Got in all the GOOD stuff
>
>
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Visit the SEVA website at http://www.seattleeva.org
> If you wish to unsubscribe from this mailing, send mail to
> list2006@... with a subject of: unsubscribe seva
>
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: stevenslough@...
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
Hi all,
I've been reading the archives for a while through yahoo...and today something
was brought to my attention, and I figured I'd ask on the list...
I met with Paul of World Class Exotics earlier, and got a ride around in his
Porsche 959 EV. It uses a Netgain Warp 11" motor, and I was impressed with the
performance, considering he used 3rd and 4th only.
He said that the Netgain engineers were able to calculate how much torque the
motor would make based upon voltage, amperage, and efficiency. The dyno graphs
are at 72v, and don't really give real world performance.
So my question is - does anyone know how to extrapolate the torque produced by a
DC motor based upon the 72V rating? If so, could you share the equation with the
list?
Thanks a lot.
-Matthew Drobnak
Future EV driver :-)
I'd differ on this. I had a truck with no A/C. The headliner fell
off. Talk about hot! The metal roof reradiated the sun's heat, felt
like you were in the sunlight directly. This is despite the windows
down, vents going, and interior air close to exterior air
temperature.
--- Quoted anonymously:
> ...
> If you're going to use a blower to force inside air temperature to
> match
> outside temperature, then insulation becomes pointless. ...
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Yeah I wouldn't say having a blower would make insulation pointless.
You still make some immensely hot surfaces through conduction and
radiation through the windows. And a blower is often running a losing
battle, it will take an unrealistic amount of blower CFM to remove ALL
the heat. And the blower can't really reduce the cooling requirements
while you're driving.
I wonder what the R-value of the existing headliner is? If it's already
a substantially effective insulation strategy we may not be able to get
so much of a gain off of more insulation.
There was a comment that an EV wouldn't need as many BTU as a internal
combustion vehicle. I don't believe this is true. I don't recall
feeling and substantial heat coming through the firewall. On some
vehicles the transmission hump gets notably warmer, but not enough that
it's going to require a great deal more cooling.
Also one other thing that comes to mind is reducing the thermal mass in
the cabin. Extra mass with a high heat capacity and no insulation will
resist the initial cooling down effort. It probably has some
substantial effect on the overall BTU requirements. Still, I'm not sure
how substantial. It won't have any effect on long term driving where
you're just trying to maintain a temp. On the other hand, a strategy to
cycle the AC on during regen will actually be helped by increased
thermal mass, though it's hard to imagine that one being substantial.
Danny
David Dymaxion wrote:
>I'd differ on this. I had a truck with no A/C. The headliner fell
>off. Talk about hot! The metal roof reradiated the sun's heat, felt
>like you were in the sunlight directly. This is despite the windows
>down, vents going, and interior air close to exterior air
>temperature.
>
>--- Quoted anonymously:
>
>
>>...
>>If you're going to use a blower to force inside air temperature to
>>match
>>outside temperature, then insulation becomes pointless. ...
>>
>>
Even though it's at the SEVA site, I'd still like to know if
anyone can track down a more "official" archive or podcast...
L8r
Ryan
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> Uh what program/interviewer is this? NPR??? Maybe an archeive
> podcast/stream. Morning Edition has many resources as well as NPR.
> Lawrence Rhodes......
> Ryan Fulcher wrote:
>
>> Ok, I managed to re-encode the interview as a mono stream which
>> is half the size, Here:
>> http://www.seattleeva.org/wiki/EVents_2006_07_02 15Meg
>>
>> Can anyone find out if these stations/programs have archives?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steven Lough" <stevenslough@...>
> To: <seva@...>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR"
> <ev@...>
> Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 4:01 PM
> Subject: Sandusky Radio Network Interview - A whole half HOUR
>
>>Hi Folks:
>>
>>It was a great interview. Got in all the GOOD stuff
>>
>>EV - Drag Racing
>>FOOL Cells
>>Plug-In-Hybarids
>>NEV's
>>Conversions
>>Efficiency Factors...
>>You name it.
>>and SEVA SEVA SEVA over and over again....
>>OH and "Who Killed the Electric CAR !"
>>
>>Ryan (our Web Guy ) has the MP3 file. Its a little under 28.6 Megs...
>>but he is trying to SHRINK it even more, to be put UP on the SEVA web
>>site....
>>
>>But if you want to hear it Almost LIVE...EARLY (sorry)
>>
>>Tune to: KKNW 1150 AM at 7am Sunday morning 7/2/06
>>or KQMV 92.5 FM at 6:30 am Sunday morning 7/2/06
>>or KIXI at 880 AM at 5:30 am Sunday morming 7/2/06
>>or KWJZ at 98.9 FM at 6 am Sunday morning 7/2/06
>>
>>BOY !!! Wish these Air Times were not so EARLY... but Its still
>>great to get a whole Half Hour of air time FREE !!
>>
>>Happy Listening...
>>
>>PS: For the Out of Towners... I Dont know if the STREAM on the Net or
>>not... You could look em up...
>>
>>
>>The show airs on Saturday morning on KKNW 1150 AM at 7am, and Sunday
>>morning on KQMV 92.5 FM at 6:30 am, KIXI 880 AM at 5:30am, KWJZ 98.9 FM
>>at 6am.
>>
>>--
>>Steven S. Lough, Pres.
>>Seattle EV Association
>>6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
>>Seattle, WA 98115-7230
>>Day: 206 850-8535
>>Eve: 206 524-1351
>>e-mail: stevenslough@...
>>web: http://www.seattleeva.org
>>
>
>
http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060626/FREE/60623044/1003
Here is a link for the Automotive news. It talks about the nice car but it
is really about the G-Wiz
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Humphrey" <hump@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 7:34 AM
Subject: RE: pml's new concept car... can it be as good as it sounds?
>
> http://www.nicecarcompany.co.uk/page2.htm
>
>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...] On
>> Behalf Of jmygann
>> Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 1:56 AM
>> To: Lawrence Rhodes
>> Subject: Re: pml's new concept car... can it be as good as it sounds?
>>
>> found this ...
>>
>> "The NICE Car Company will unveil a new electric city car. Developed and
>> manufactured by a leading European producer of advanced lightweight
>> vehicles, the car will be marketed as part of an ownership package that
>> will
>> give London residents a real alternative personal transport solution - no
>> more queuing for petrol, no road tax, exemption from the Congestion
>> Charge
>> and ease of parking, which is free for electric cars in many Central
>> London
>> locations."
>>
>> http://www.britishmotorshow.co.uk/content.asp?PageID=280
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
There's an interesting article in this month's Scientific American about
slowly replacing our current electrical grid with a new one comprising a
cooled superconductor wrapped in a hydrogen sheath pipe. Both electricity
and hydrogen would be delivered, providing for home and EV use.
Bill Dennis
In terms of 80% SOC voltage of the battery, does it vary with the current
thats being injected into the batts. Please give an exmaple of a single 12
volt battery.
CHeers
>From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
>Reply-To: ev@...
>To: ev@...
>Subject: Re: Dump Charger
>Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2006 10:01:46 -0700
>
>David Sherritze wrote:
> > Has anyone used or built a dump charger.
>
>I've used them occasionally. Others on the list have a lot of experience
>with them, too.
>
> > I have a 72 volt EV that I drive to work. When I get home I have used
> > about 30% of power (70% DoD). However from here on, the rate of
> > discharge goes down exponentially.
>
>That's normal, and the way it should be. You can charge lead-acid
>batteries as fast as you want up to 70-80% SOC. Beyond that, you have to
>limit the voltage, which means the current tapers down.
>
> > I have been thinking about a dump charger that would build up
> > charge all day and that would recharge the EV quickly when I
> > get home. This would allow me to run my evening errands and
> > then let both the EV and dump charger charge overnight.
>
>Sure, this is feasible. The basic idea is that you only use the high
>current dump charger to get the batteries up to 80% SOC quickly. That's
>enough for normal driving. Bring the back up to 100% overnight or
>whenever you have the time.
>
> > But I have no idea how to do this or if it is even probable.
>
>The dump pack needs to be about 30% higher voltage. With a 72v pack in
>your EV, a 96v dump pack is about right. More than 30% is faster, but
>you are at risk from excessively high currents and overcharging. Lower,
>and the charging current falls off fast and you may not reach 80% SOC on
>the pack being charged.
>
>The dump pack usually has at least twice the amphour capacity of the
>batteries being charged. For example, a string of 6v 220ah golf cart
>batteries charging a string of 12v 50ah batteries. This way, you have
>enough capacity to reach full, and aren't deeply discharging the dump
>pack, so they last longer.
>
>If there's nothing between the two packs but switches, wires, and
>(hopefully) fuses or circuit breakers, you have to STAND RIGHT THERE
>throughout the dump charge process, and manually disconnect it at the
>end. Things can go very wrong very fast!
>
>It's better to have some kind of automatic controller. Basically, it
>needs to do what any charger does -- limit the maximum current to a safe
>level for the batteries, wires, and connectors; and limit the maximum
>voltage of the batteries being charged.
>--
>Ring the bells that you can ring
>Forget the perfect offering
>There is a crack in everything
>That's how the light gets in
> -- Leonard Cohen
>--
>Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
>leeahart_@_earthlink.net
>
_________________________________________________________________
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b2e6d
EV Digest 5617
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: DC Motor torque calculations
by "steve clunn" <steveclunn@...>
2) Re: Scientific American Grid Article
by "John Westlund" <westlujr@...>
3) Re: Raptor Controller for sale
by Bob Bath <civicwithacord@...>
4) Re: Scientific American Grid Article
by "BillDube@..." <billdube@...>
5) Re: DC Motor torque calculations
by "Roland Wiench" <ev_7@...>
6) Re: Air conditioning gains
by Jeff Shanab <jshanab@...>
7) re: Scientific American Grid Article
by Jeff Shanab <jshanab@...>
8) RE: gang charger
by "Jody Dewey" <jodydewey@...>
9) Re: DC Motor torque calculations
by mdrobnak@...
10) RE: gang charger
by "Jody Dewey" <jodydewey@...>
11) Re: New Bikey NEB
by Christopher Zach <czach@...>
12) Was: Scientific American Grid Article- Where is NJ?
by Dave <davidrobison@...>
13) RE: Scientific American Grid Article
by Cor van de Water <CWater@...>
14) Re: DC Motor torque calculations
by "Roderick Wilde" <roderick@...>
15) Re: Scientific American Grid Article
by "Martin K" <martin-distlists@...>
16) Re: DC Motor torque calculations
by "Paul G." <paul-g@...>
17) US Saft Reseller (Lou?)
by "Jonathan \"Sheer\" Pullen" <sheer-lists@...>
18) Re: US Saft Reseller (Lou?)
by Chet Fields <chetfields@...>
19) FasTrack 0-60 mph Data
by MIKE & PAULA WILLMON <electrabishi@...>
20) RE: US Saft Reseller (Lou?)
by "rcboyd" <rcboyd@...>
21) Re: Valence Technology Batteries
by "ProEV" <Promo@...>
22) Re: Prius PHEV, was Re: Valence Technology Batteries
by "ProEV" <Promo@...>
23) Re: Hummmm Look at this. Anyone "seen" one?
by "ProEV" <Promo@...>
24) Re: Hummmm Look at this. Anyone "seen" one?
by David Dymaxion <david_dymaxion@...>
25) Surplus color LED display
by Danny Miller <dannym@...>
26) RE: Valence Technology Batteries
by "David Sherritze" <sherritze@...>
27) RE: Hummmm Look at this. Anyone "seen" one?
by "David Ankers" <dankers@...>
28) Re: FasTrack 0-60 mph Data
by Steve Condie <pdkluge@...>
29) Re: Hummmm Look at this. Anyone "seen" one?
by "Death to All Spammers" <cowtown@...>
30) Re: Prius PHEV, was Re: Valence Technology Batteries
by "Doug Hartley" <douglas.hartley@...>
31) Re: Scientific American Grid Article
by "Michael Perry" <mperry@...>
32) RE: Scientific American Grid Article
by "Bill Dennis" <wjdennis@...>
Hi Matthew , The 2k zilla that is in Paul's car was in my pick up first .
You can see it spinning the wheels in 4th gear at www.grassrootsev.com . I
have no clutch in that set up . After putting on bigger tires and still
spinning the tires , the tranny started making a funny sound , so I let Paul
have it , while we wait for Otmar to refill our plate :-)
----- Original Message -----
>
> I met with Paul of World Class Exotics earlier, and got a ride around in
> his Porsche 959 EV. It uses a Netgain Warp 11" motor, and I was impressed
> with the performance, considering he used 3rd and 4th only.
>
I'm making him a clutchless adapter , it will be much more impressive with
out the clutch which now slips quite a bit.
> He said that the Netgain engineers were able to calculate how much torque
> the motor would make based upon voltage, amperage, and efficiency. The
> dyno graphs are at 72v, and don't really give real world performance.
I haven't seen the graphs for the 11 , where did you see them . If they are
at 2000 amp from 0 to 72v then we would know something as max torque will
be at a low rpm .
Steve Clunn
>
> So my question is - does anyone know how to extrapolate the torque
> produced by a DC motor based upon the 72V rating? If so, could you share
> the equation with the list?
>
> Thanks a lot.
>
> -Matthew Drobnak
> Future EV driver :-)
>
>
Transmission losses through the power distribution system
mostly come from substations, capacitors, and such.
Superconducting material for our power lines won't do much,
as those lines already are ~99% efficient! All that extra
money for such a small gain?
Delivering electricity from power plant to your home is
about 92% efficient(It does vary a bit). Power lines are the
least of the losses.
Take a power systems analysis course if you seek to
understand how this works in any sort of depth, relatively
speaking. I personally wonder what NJ knows about this
topic.
If we are to have millions of EVs on the road, our grid
could probably handle that. 20-30 million by more rational
estimates, 100 million by some very optimistic estimates,
with no new capacity added. What we need more than to reduce
transmission losses is to install more grid capacity.
Preferably, more wind, solar, biomass, and maybe nuclear.
Thanks for the heads-up.
For the record, Peter Senkowski, Meyers Motors, does an upgrade on the old
Raptors. Mine needed it after letting the smoke out.
The new version has put over 4,000 miles on it.
If I was converting another, I'd take one in a heartbeat, knowing that Peter
will take good care of me.
peace,
coinarian@... wrote:
Anyone work on these if there is a problem? Last I heard they were out of
production and no more factory support.
David Chapman.
Quoting David Sherritze :
> While looking on ebay I saw a Raptor 600 DC Controller for sale.
>
> I have no ties to this sale but looks good for someone working on a
> project.
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Raptor-600-DC-Motor-
> Controller_W0QQitemZ260002934707QQihZ016QQcategoryZ42924QQssPageNameZWD
> VWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------
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Providing Innovative Internet Solutions Since 1993
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
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Are you saving any gas for your kids?
---------------------------------
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Superconducting transmission lines have been studied in great detail
before. They make no sense because:
1) AC losses are not zero in superconductors. You need to pump these
losses away at cryogenic temperature. Any possible efficiency gains
are lost by this fact.
2) Superconducting lines would be underground. Underground lines cost
8 times what overhead lines do.
Bill Dube'
At 07:35 AM 7/3/2006, you wrote:
>Transmission losses through the power distribution system
>mostly come from substations, capacitors, and such.
>Superconducting material for our power lines won't do much,
>as those lines already are ~99% efficient! All that extra
>money for such a small gain?
>
>Delivering electricity from power plant to your home is
>about 92% efficient(It does vary a bit). Power lines are the
>least of the losses.
>
>
>
>Take a power systems analysis course if you seek to
>understand how this works in any sort of depth, relatively
>speaking. I personally wonder what NJ knows about this
>topic.
>
>
>If we are to have millions of EVs on the road, our grid
>could probably handle that. 20-30 million by more rational
>estimates, 100 million by some very optimistic estimates,
>with no new capacity added. What we need more than to reduce
>transmission losses is to install more grid capacity.
>Preferably, more wind, solar, biomass, and maybe nuclear.
Hello Matthew,
The torque of a motor is proportional to the number of conductors on the
armature, to the current per conductor and to the total flux in the motor.
So larger the motor, the more armature windings, the more current and magnetic
flux produces more torque.
If you reduce the current by one-half, then the motor torque is reduce by
one-half.
torque = 0.1175 x A.C. x T.F. x Ia x (poles/paths) x 10 to the minus 8
power.
A.C. is the total number of armature conductors
T.F. is the total flux per pole
Ia is the current per conductor
For a given size motor, the number of armature conductors, the number of poles,
and the number of armature paths, are constant.
This constant can be provided by the motor manufacturer.
Then you can use this equation derided from the above.
torque = a constant x T.F. x Ia
I had Netgain give me the data on a 9 and 11 inch Warp motor for my EV.
This requires the following data:
Total weight of EV
Gear ratios in each gear
Axle ratio
Speed in each gear
Maximum RPM
Maximum Temperature Rating
Maximum Ampere for a specific amount of time.
Maximum Ampere constant.
Maximum motor voltage
Battery Pack voltage
Controller type.
>From this above date, they can determined the torque, rpm and current at a
certain speed of the EV.
For me, it was 100 amps at 3000 rpm at 180 volts at 30 mph at a torque of 15 ft
lbs for a Warp 9.
The Warp 11 would be about half the current at the same current flow at the same
rpm.
Roland
T
----- Original Message -----
From: mdrobnak@...<mailto:mdrobnak@...>
To: ev@...<mailto:ev@...>
Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 11:03 PM
Subject: DC Motor torque calculations
Hi all,
I've been reading the archives for a while through yahoo...and today something
was brought to my attention, and I figured I'd ask on the list...
I met with Paul of World Class Exotics earlier, and got a ride around in his
Porsche 959 EV. It uses a Netgain Warp 11" motor, and I was impressed with the
performance, considering he used 3rd and 4th only.
He said that the Netgain engineers were able to calculate how much torque the
motor would make based upon voltage, amperage, and efficiency. The dyno graphs
are at 72v, and don't really give real world performance.
So my question is - does anyone know how to extrapolate the torque produced by
a DC motor based upon the 72V rating? If so, could you share the equation with
the list?
Thanks a lot.
-Matthew Drobnak
Future EV driver :-)
I also think the insulation is still usefull.
When driving and using the AC, it reduces the load.
When sitting in the parking lot it reduces the heat transfer into the
vehicle and, if the fan is on a thermal switch, how long before that fan
comes on. Once the fan comes on it still reduces the amount of heat
transfered into the box. Because of all the metal and glass a car gets a
lot hotter than the ambient air. The fan reduces the accumulated build
up and is turned off when the AC is acutally trying to cool the vehicle.
Great, why not just say "integrated ignition source".
I assume these are buried lines only and are split off way before they
reach the house. First they would need to be metered seperately and
second for safety.
How many times a day are power lines hit, crossed, and hit with a back-hoe?
Before someone cry's fowl, off topic, I think fuel cells have promise,
but as a small scale battery charger to extend the range of an EV and
provide heat for cabin and for generating AC.
That is a great idea - I think I might go this route and use that in
addition to a ZIVAN charger for my whole pack charge. Maybe have the ZIVAN
charge the pack and then have the gang chargers float charge the pack so
each battery is fully charged for the next day.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
Behalf Of David Sherritze
Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 11:11 PM
To: ev@...
Subject: RE: gang charger
No the chargers have built in protection for reverse polarity, short
circuit, A/C surge, over-voltage and over-current.
I contacted the company and asked about using them on a series. They told me
just to hook them up and use them.
They are permanently installed in the vehicle with an exterior rated
multi-outlet strip. I have been using this set-up since Feb with no
problems. I just drive then plug them in.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
Behalf Of Jody Dewey
Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 8:53 PM
To: ev@...
Subject: RE: gang charger
But you have to separate the batteries for it to work right? Do you
separate them every night? Sounds like a formula for wearing out the
connections.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
Behalf Of Michael Perry
Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 5:39 PM
To: ev@...
Subject: Re: gang charger
Interesting. And if one unit is still charging in the morning, you know that
batt could be dead.
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Sherritze" <sherritze@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 6:00 AM
Subject: RE: gang charger
> I also do something similar with by GEM Car short bed utility. Stating the
> obvious, it is 72 volts (6 - 12 volt batteries). Instead of the onboard
> Zivan NG-1 , which constantly gives me problems, I use six 7 amp ACI
> Superchargers (model 1214). ACI's sister company is SONEIL.
I got my information from the Netgain web page at:
http://www.go-ev.com/motors-warp.html
Also, anyone know how accurate the range calculators are (like on Ueve's page or
www.evconvert.com)? Just as some background, I'm looking to convert a 2000
Lincoln LS, and keeping A/C, P/S, and the automatic transmission...I know I'll
need an external motor to drive the accessories...
-Matt
----- Original Message -----
From: steve clunn <steveclunn@...>
Date: Monday, July 3, 2006 9:32 am
Subject: Re: DC Motor torque calculations
> Hi Matthew , The 2k zilla that is in Paul's car was in my pick up
> first .
> You can see it spinning the wheels in 4th gear at
> www.grassrootsev.com . I
> have no clutch in that set up . After putting on bigger tires and
> still
> spinning the tires , the tranny started making a funny sound , so I
> let Paul
> have it , while we wait for Otmar to refill our plate :-)
> ----- Original Message -----
> >
> > I met with Paul of World Class Exotics earlier, and got a ride
> around in
> > his Porsche 959 EV. It uses a Netgain Warp 11" motor, and I was
> impressed
> > with the performance, considering he used 3rd and 4th only.
> >
> I'm making him a clutchless adapter , it will be much more
> impressive with
> out the clutch which now slips quite a bit.
>
>
> > He said that the Netgain engineers were able to calculate how
> much torque
> > the motor would make based upon voltage, amperage, and
> efficiency. The
> > dyno graphs are at 72v, and don't really give real world
> performance.
> I haven't seen the graphs for the 11 , where did you see them . If
> they are
> at 2000 amp from 0 to 72v then we would know something as max
> torque will
> be at a low rpm .
> Steve Clunn
>
>
> >
> > So my question is - does anyone know how to extrapolate the
> torque
> > produced by a DC motor based upon the 72V rating? If so, could
> you share
> > the equation with the list?
> >
> > Thanks a lot.
> >
> > -Matthew Drobnak
> > Future EV driver :-)
> >
> >
>
>
I would make sure that the PIV rating of the diode is higher than the entire
pack voltage. That way if there is a short circuit you are not grounding
the entire pack through that one charger. PIV stands for Peak Inverse
Voltage for the non-electronic types. I would also make sure that the diode
can take upwards of 50 amps of forward current. Even though you are only
going to be putting 12 amps tops through it that will give you a generous
safety margin.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
Behalf Of Matthew Milliron
Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 10:49 PM
To: ev@...
Subject: Re: gang charger
On Sun, 2 Jul 2006 21:31:26 -0400, you wrote:
>As a precaution you might want to put a diode in the positive lead of each
>charger to the battery. That way current can't come back from an adjacent
>battery.
I think this is a great idea. An inexpensive "just in case".
> Have you calculated how much input current is going to be drawn
>with 8 chargers all hooked up?
I am told less than 20 amps, plus a 120 volt muffin fan for
ventilation/cooling.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
>Behalf Of Matthew Milliron
>Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 10:25 PM
>To: ev@...
>Subject: Re: gang charger
>
>
>On Sat, 1 Jul 2006 17:07:28 -0400, you wrote:
>
>>How many are you going to use?
> I bought 8. I would rather bought the Deltran but it only charges
>at 2 amps.
>
Matt Milliron
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/702
My daughter named it, "Pikachu". It's yellow and black,
electric and contains Japanese parts, so I went with it.
nikki wrote:
> Anyone else got something similar which they'd like to share knowledge
> about? This isn't classed as an electric moped, more of a scooter with
> pedals to enable it to be qualified as a bike.
Interesting. I have an Aprila Enjoy electric hybrid bike. It has a pack
of 20 Saft NiMH F cells in a carrier, and a 250 watt motor connected to
the pedals thru a set of slip clutches and torque sensors.
What the motor does is supply torque. Lots of torque. When you're
pedaling normally the motor doesn't do anything. When you start to pedal
harder the motor starts kicking in with pulses of energy.
Overall a pretty efficient use of the batteries. They work a little rest
a little. Likewise the rider gets to work some, but not so much you
become a complete wreck. Kind of like a hybrid.
Chris
-----Original Message-----
>From: "BillDube@..." <billdube@...>
>Sent: Jul 3, 2006 6:46 AM
>To: ev@...
>Subject: Re: Scientific American Grid Article
>
Snip
speaking. I personally wonder what NJ knows about this
>>topic.
>>
Yea. Where is he these days?
Before somebody solves the distribution issue in an *ahem*
interesting way, there may be the tiny subject of how to
generate this Hydrogen in an efficient way and at the other
side of the pipe - who is consuming it?
Last I checked, there was not a large density of H-cars
anywhere, any time soon.
Keep charging,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: CWater@... Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: cor_van_de_water@...
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
Behalf Of Bill Dennis
Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 5:30 AM
To: ev@...
Subject: Scientific American Grid Article
There's an interesting article in this month's Scientific American about
slowly replacing our current electrical grid with a new one comprising a
cooled superconductor wrapped in a hydrogen sheath pipe. Both electricity
and hydrogen would be delivered, providing for home and EV use.
Bill Dennis
Matt, why do you think you need an external motor to drive the accessories?
Years ago I built a Ford Taurus with air conditioning and power steering all
driven off the auxiliary shaft. When you turned the key to the start
position a latching relay kept it on in idle position so that steering and
air would work. I used a cermet pot in line with the PB6 in order to have
very fine idle adjustment. It worked great!
Roderick
Roderick Wilde, President, EV Parts Inc.
Your Online EV Superstore
www.evparts.com
1-360-385-7082
Phone: 360-582-1270 Fax: 360-582-1272
PO Box 834, Carlsborg, WA 98324
108-B Business Park Loop, Sequim, WA 98382
----- Original Message -----
From: <mdrobnak@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 7:20 AM
Subject: Re: DC Motor torque calculations
>I got my information from the Netgain web page at:
> http://www.go-ev.com/motors-warp.html
>
>
> Also, anyone know how accurate the range calculators are (like on Ueve's
> page or www.evconvert.com)? Just as some background, I'm looking to
> convert a 2000 Lincoln LS, and keeping A/C, P/S, and the automatic
> transmission...I know I'll need an external motor to drive the
> accessories...
>
> -Matt
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: steve clunn <steveclunn@...>
> Date: Monday, July 3, 2006 9:32 am
> Subject: Re: DC Motor torque calculations
>
>> Hi Matthew , The 2k zilla that is in Paul's car was in my pick up
>> first .
>> You can see it spinning the wheels in 4th gear at
>> www.grassrootsev.com . I
>> have no clutch in that set up . After putting on bigger tires and
>> still
>> spinning the tires , the tranny started making a funny sound , so I
>> let Paul
>> have it , while we wait for Otmar to refill our plate :-)
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >
>> > I met with Paul of World Class Exotics earlier, and got a ride
>> around in
>> > his Porsche 959 EV. It uses a Netgain Warp 11" motor, and I was
>> impressed
>> > with the performance, considering he used 3rd and 4th only.
>> >
>> I'm making him a clutchless adapter , it will be much more
>> impressive with
>> out the clutch which now slips quite a bit.
>>
>>
>> > He said that the Netgain engineers were able to calculate how
>> much torque
>> > the motor would make based upon voltage, amperage, and
>> efficiency. The
>> > dyno graphs are at 72v, and don't really give real world
>> performance.
>> I haven't seen the graphs for the 11 , where did you see them . If
>> they are
>> at 2000 amp from 0 to 72v then we would know something as max
>> torque will
>> be at a low rpm .
>> Steve Clunn
>>
>>
>> >
>> > So my question is - does anyone know how to extrapolate the
>> torque
>> > produced by a DC motor based upon the 72V rating? If so, could
>> you share
>> > the equation with the list?
>> >
>> > Thanks a lot.
>> >
>> > -Matthew Drobnak
>> > Future EV driver :-)
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.8/380 - Release Date: 6/30/2006
>
>
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.8/380 - Release Date: 6/30/2006
Sounds outrageously expensively unrealistic.
They can just as easily use some method of creating synthetic "natural"
gas and piping it through the existing system.
--
MK
On Mon, July 3, 2006 12:29 pm, Bill Dennis wrote:
> There's an interesting article in this month's Scientific American about
> slowly replacing our current electrical grid with a new one comprising a
> cooled superconductor wrapped in a hydrogen sheath pipe. Both electricity
> and hydrogen would be delivered, providing for home and EV use.
>
> Bill Dennis
>
>
>
On Jul 2, 2006, at 10:03 PM, mdrobnak@... wrote:
> So my question is - does anyone know how to extrapolate the torque
> produced by a DC motor based upon the 72V rating? If so, could you
> share the equation with the list?
>
Voltage has a negligible effect on motor torque. Run the line from
motor amps to the torque produced. It will be the same torque at the
same amps at 36 volts or 144 volts - the rpm will be different so the
horsepower will be different.
Paul G.
I'm trying to find contact information for any reseller of SAFT's larger
NiCad or NiMH batteries. Can someone point me in the right direction?
Thanks muchos,
Sheer
Lou Magnarella
Sales Manager, Electric Vehicles/AGV
Saft America Inc.
711 Industrial Blvd.
Valdosta, GA 31601
(Ph) 229-245-3015
(F) 229-247-8486
(CP) 229-251-9827
lou.magnarella@...
Website: www.saftbatteries.com
--- "Jonathan \"Sheer\" Pullen" <sheer-lists@...> wrote:
> I'm trying to find contact information for any reseller of SAFT's larger
> NiCad or NiMH batteries. Can someone point me in the right direction?
>
> Thanks muchos,
>
> Sheer
>
>
>
__________________________________________________
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http://mail.yahoo.com
I got my clutch changed on Saturday night. 100% ceramic disc holds really well
now. So... I had a little time and pulled some data on 0-45 mph and 0-60 mph
runs. 1 each starting in 2nd and shifting to 3rd...and 1 each starting right
from 3rd. You can see the FasTrack outputs at
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/756. Just a note on the high motor voltage
anomaly. Otmar confirms it is most likely an un-calibrated resistor value in
the motor voltage sense circuitry. Although he never intended for the DAQ
functions to be user accessible I find them very useful. On my controller the
motor voltage reads 53% higher than actual. You can see on the graphs when the
Duty Cycle reaches 100%. My assumption is that when that happens the motor and
battery voltage are the same, as well as motor and battery current. Anyway, for
what its worth I'll leave these plots up on the EVAlbum for a while. On future
plots I'll post process the motor voltages down to actaul values.
Mike
Anchorage, AK.
I have 72 first generation PEVE prismatic 7.2 nominal voltage NiMHy
batteries. I am 85 years old and tired of working alone, and am going
to sell out all of my EV equipment.
Contact me at:
Phone 208 772 6159
Cell 208 640 3176
Bob Boyd
rcboyd@...
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...] On
Behalf Of Jonathan "Sheer" Pullen
Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 11:41 AM
Cc: ev@...
Subject: US Saft Reseller (Lou?)
I'm trying to find contact information for any reseller of SAFT's larger
NiCad or NiMH batteries. Can someone point me in the right direction?
Thanks muchos,
Sheer
Hi Chris,
It is great to hear from another person who is going to run Lithium cells.
We are very happy with our Kokam's but want to hear more about what is
available.
>I ordered 12 U24-12XP batteries and a U-BMS-XP-HV
> battery management unit. I just received the BMS, and
> my batteries ship this week from China. They are
> pricey, but on paper they meet my specific needs --
> specific energy, specific power (600A peak for quick
> acceleration vs. 300A posted),
The Valence site lists the continuous discharge as 150 amps with a 30 second
peak of 300 amps for the U24-12XP batteries.
http://www.valence.com/pdffiles/U-Charge%20XP%20DS%20Jan06.pdf
Did you get different information?
Part of the reason we went with Kokam was the superior max discharge: 500
amp continuous, 800 amps peak. The 300 amps / 600 amps would not be bad for
normal road use but 150 amps / 300 amps was pretty limiting.
<Valence has superior thermal stability>
I'm not sure what you mean by thermal stability. Could you post some more
information?
<and cycle life so I chose them.>
What figures do they give on cycle life? I see on the spec sheet that at 45
degrees C, discharge rate of C/2 which is 50 amps, that they seem to hit
about 80% of capacity at 600 cycles. The graph does not say if these are
100% discharges or 80% discharges.
The 25 degrees C graph is still at 95% at 600 cycles. This is just about the
same as the cycle life for the new Kokam's.
http://www.kokam.com/english/product/kokam_Lipo_01.html.
The Kokam graph is for 100% discharge at 1C which is 100 amps instead of 50
amps. It is also at 25 degrees C. It goes out to over 1,400 cycles. At 600
cycles it is about 95% of capacity. By 1,400 cycles it gets pretty close to
80%.
If the discharge is only to 80% of capacity, then the Kokam cells still have
95% of capacity at 2,000 cycles.
The part I like most about the Valence is that they include a BMS system.
Can you tell us more about the BMS? How does it work? What does it display?
< I will report back with my results once I'm on the road.>
I look forward to reading them.
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
Hi Doug,
< I have bought and received 6 of their UEV-18 XP 19.2V, 65 A-hr. batteries
for my Prius plug-in hybrid conversion.>
Another Lithium pioneer! Have you installed the modules yet? Do you have
website?
<and good current output capability>
What current can you pull from the UEV-18 XP's?
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
Paul,
< I'm sure I had a phone discussion with the pople involved. They were very
> ignorant at the time. They had no idea how to get a vehicle registered and
> did not know about unsprun weight. The wheel motors weigh 18Kg each.
Do you know anything else about the motors? They seem to be PML motors
(http://pmlflightlink.com/motors/wheelmotors.html)?
PML most powerful motor seems to be the EW 30/60. It lists continuous torque
as 160 Nm (118 lbf-ft).
The car blurb says:
High Power Wheels
160 bhp (120kw) each wheel = 640bhp total
750Nm per wheel = 3000Nm total braking/acceleration torque
HI - Pa Drive technology
A new motor? Or a new marketing director?
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
Maybe the units got mixed up? Their pdf spec download shows 640 nm of
torque, but only 14.4 kW.
--- ProEV <Promo@...> wrote:
> ...
> Do you know anything else about the motors? They seem to be PML
> motors
> <http://pmlflightlink.com/motors/wheelmotors.html>
>
> PML most powerful motor seems to be the EW 30/60. It lists
> continuous torque
> as 160 Nm (118 lbf-ft).
>
> The car blurb says:
>
> High Power Wheels
> 160 bhp (120kw) each wheel = 640bhp total
> 750Nm per wheel = 3000Nm total braking/acceleration torque
> HI - Pa Drive technology
>
> A new motor? Or a new marketing director?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
If it is not being to personal what did the
12 U24-12XP batteries and a U-BMS-XP-HV battery management unit.
cost.
I looked at the U27-12XP, but have no point of reference on cost.
Thanks
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
Behalf Of ProEV
Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 3:34 PM
To: ev@...
Subject: Re: Valence Technology Batteries
Hi Chris,
It is great to hear from another person who is going to run Lithium cells.
We are very happy with our Kokam's but want to hear more about what is
available.
>I ordered 12 U24-12XP batteries and a U-BMS-XP-HV
> battery management unit. I just received the BMS, and
> my batteries ship this week from China. They are
> pricey, but on paper they meet my specific needs --
> specific energy, specific power (600A peak for quick
> acceleration vs. 300A posted),
The Valence site lists the continuous discharge as 150 amps with a 30 second
peak of 300 amps for the U24-12XP batteries.
http://www.valence.com/pdffiles/U-Charge%20XP%20DS%20Jan06.pdf
Did you get different information?
Part of the reason we went with Kokam was the superior max discharge: 500
amp continuous, 800 amps peak. The 300 amps / 600 amps would not be bad for
normal road use but 150 amps / 300 amps was pretty limiting.
<Valence has superior thermal stability>
I'm not sure what you mean by thermal stability. Could you post some more
information?
<and cycle life so I chose them.>
What figures do they give on cycle life? I see on the spec sheet that at 45
degrees C, discharge rate of C/2 which is 50 amps, that they seem to hit
about 80% of capacity at 600 cycles. The graph does not say if these are
100% discharges or 80% discharges.
The 25 degrees C graph is still at 95% at 600 cycles. This is just about the
same as the cycle life for the new Kokam's.
http://www.kokam.com/english/product/kokam_Lipo_01.html.
The Kokam graph is for 100% discharge at 1C which is 100 amps instead of 50
amps. It is also at 25 degrees C. It goes out to over 1,400 cycles. At 600
cycles it is about 95% of capacity. By 1,400 cycles it gets pretty close to
80%.
If the discharge is only to 80% of capacity, then the Kokam cells still have
95% of capacity at 2,000 cycles.
The part I like most about the Valence is that they include a BMS system.
Can you tell us more about the BMS? How does it work? What does it display?
< I will report back with my results once I'm on the road.>
I look forward to reading them.
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
Or maybe the car with these numbers doesn't actually exist but rather is a
"mock up" for the auto show; and the numbers given are based on what they
could achieve in theory, given a few years development.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...] On
Behalf Of David Dymaxion
Sent: Tuesday, 4 July 2006 7:36 AM
To: ev@...
Subject: Re: Hummmm Look at this. Anyone "seen" one?
Maybe the units got mixed up? Their pdf spec download shows 640 nm of
torque, but only 14.4 kW.
--- ProEV <Promo@...> wrote:
> ...
> Do you know anything else about the motors? They seem to be PML
> motors
> <http://pmlflightlink.com/motors/wheelmotors.html>
>
> PML most powerful motor seems to be the EW 30/60. It lists
> continuous torque
> as 160 Nm (118 lbf-ft).
>
> The car blurb says:
>
> High Power Wheels
> 160 bhp (120kw) each wheel = 640bhp total
> 750Nm per wheel = 3000Nm total braking/acceleration torque
> HI - Pa Drive technology
>
> A new motor? Or a new marketing director?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Mike - hey, thanks for posting the charts. It is **extremely** helpful to see
how the battery and motor voltage and current works in a "real world" vehicle on
acceleration. I have one question: it looks like your batteries sag down to 9
volts (or lower) on full acceleration. Have you had any problems with taking
them down that low?
MIKE & PAULA WILLMON <electrabishi@...> wrote: I got my clutch changed on
Saturday night. 100% ceramic disc holds really well now. So... I had a little
time and pulled some data on 0-45 mph and 0-60 mph runs. 1 each starting in 2nd
and shifting to 3rd...and 1 each starting right from 3rd. You can see the
FasTrack outputs at http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/756. Just a note on the
high motor voltage anomaly. Otmar confirms it is most likely an un-calibrated
resistor value in the motor voltage sense circuitry. Although he never intended
for the DAQ functions to be user accessible I find them very useful. On my
controller the motor voltage reads 53% higher than actual. You can see on the
graphs when the Duty Cycle reaches 100%. My assumption is that when that
happens the motor and battery voltage are the same, as well as motor and battery
current. Anyway, for what its worth I'll leave these plots up on the EVAlbum
for a while. On future plots I'll post process the
motor voltages down to actaul values.
Mike
Anchorage, AK.
---------------------------------
Sneak preview the all-new Yahoo.com. It's not radically different. Just
radically better.
> Maybe the units got mixed up? Their pdf spec download shows 640 nm of
> torque, but only 14.4 kW.
>
Having a 40lb motor in each wheel seems like it would cause a problem
with sprung weight.
Hi Cliff,
> Another Lithium pioneer! Have you installed the modules yet? Do you have
> website?
Yup, 2 EVs with Thunder Sky (hybrid battery packs with AGM, now one as I am
testing Sacred Sun 8V batteries in the pickup & now Valence for the PHEV,
where higher current, relative to A-hr. rating, is required.
The UEV-18 XP have not been installed yet, except for a trial fit. I am
waiting on 2 key components: eCycle boost converter and Delta-Q charger,
before I really plunge in and start the installation.
No website, sorry. Maybe one day....
> What current can you pull from the UEV-18 XP's?
150A continuous and 300 A for 30 seconds, not too bad for 65A-hr batteries.
I expect to be drawing about 90A continuous. They can be paralleled for
more current and A-hr. if needed. There is with this series a built-in BMS
in each battery, communicating via CAN to the common U-BMS module to
interact with the vehicle, control contactors, etc.
Best regards,
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "ProEV" <Promo@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: Prius PHEV, was Re: Valence Technology Batteries
> Hi Doug,
>
> < I have bought and received 6 of their UEV-18 XP 19.2V, 65 A-hr.
> batteries for my Prius plug-in hybrid conversion.>
>
> Another Lithium pioneer! Have you installed the modules yet? Do you have
> website?
>
> <and good current output capability>
>
> What current can you pull from the UEV-18 XP's?
>
> Cliff
> www.ProEV.com
>
>
True... unless distances are increased. These lines could allow the (future)
deregulated Bonneville to charge current power users billions, so energy can
be pumped to CA's independently owned utility companies. Then we could all
enjoy unified rates... set at CA's current rate structure.
That should be worth spending a few billion bucks on. (Right now, the NW has
low energy costs because it's too expensive to ship it over huge distances.)
For a synopsis, check our President's speeches about the necessity of
privatizing Bonneville, and/or making its rates "market standard."
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Westlund" <westlujr@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 6:35 AM
Subject: Re: Scientific American Grid Article
> Delivering electricity from power plant to your home is
> about 92% efficient(It does vary a bit). Power lines are the
> least of the losses.
Yes, the system in the article would cover greater distances than the
current system, which is one of the advantages mentioned, including avoiding
blackouts by being able to ship energy from one distant locale to another.
Second, the proposed system would be DC, not AC, to take advantage of the
superconducting capability. Third, the article did indeed recommend running
the new system underground, using some of the newer digging technologies
which reduce the cost of burrowing. Plus, the authors recommend a gradual
phase-in, spanning 25 years or more.
It's probably worth a read, if only to get the full picture rather than rely
on my sketchy synopsis here. I'm not arguing for or against it.
Bill Dennis
EV Digest 5618
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Golfcart diff on eBay
by cowtown@...
2) 9" series-wound Kostov on eBay
by cowtown@...
3) RE: FasTrack 0-60 mph Data
by Mike Willmon <electrabishi@...>
4) Comparing batteries - was Re: Valence Technology Batteries
by "Michaela Merz" <misch@...>
5) Top Gear clip of Hy-Wire
by "Mike Ellis" <michael.ellis@...>
6) Re: My Cabby lives! (Zilla voltage/current limit question)
by "Adrian DeLeon" <adrian@...>
7) Re: White Zombie PIR June 30th & New DC-DC
by "Chris Brune" <csbrune_ev@...>
8) Re: My Cabby lives! (Zilla voltage/current limit question)
by "David Roden" <evpost@...>
9) Re: Comparing batteries - was Re: Valence Technology Batteries
by "David Roden" <evpost@...>
10) Re: 9" series-wound Kostov on eBay
by "David Roden" <evpost@...>
11) Re: Valence Technology Batteries
by Chris Jones <chris_b_jones@...>
12) Re: Comparing batteries - was Re: Valence Technology Batteries
by "Philippe Borges" <philippe.borges@...>
13) Re: frontal area
by Lock Hughes <lockhughes@...>
14) RE: 9" series-wound Kostov on eBay
by "Roger Stockton" <rstockton@...>
15) RE: frontal area
by Mike Willmon <electrabishi@...>
16) Wikipedia EV conversion
by Rod Hower <rodhower@...>
17) Re: White Zombie PIR June 30th & New DC-DC
by "damon henry" <damonhenry@...>
18) Re: Air conditioning gains
by "Peter Shabino" <wireb@...>
19) TdS Report #50: Interview: Drew Gillett
by TdS_Reports@...
20) TdS Report #51: Photos - Drew and Barbara Gillett
by TdS_Reports@...
21) Another RAV4 EV on Ebay
by Cor van de Water <CWater@...>
22) Re: air conditioning for ev's
by Jack Murray <jack@...>
23) RE: Top Gear clip of Hy-Wire
by Cor van de Water <CWater@...>
24) Re: Dump Charger
by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
25) Re: 9" series-wound Kostov on eBay
by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
26) Re: Top Gear clip of Hy-Wire
by Bill & Nancy <njbrw549@...>
27) Re: DC Motor torque calculations
by Jack Murray <jack@...>
28) Controller Simulations (Was RE: FasTrack 0-60 mph Data)
by Chet Fields <chetfields@...>
29) Re: White Zombie PIR June 30th & New DC-DC
by "Chris Brune" <csbrune_ev@...>
I haven't been running my voltage that low on a typical basis. I normally have
the battery lower limit to 170V. And I'm only
pulling these runs on a topped off pack. But so far tI don't see anything amiss
with the batteries. I'm running the PowerCheq
balancers and it seems they balance nicely during/after discharge as well.
After a hard pull like this, while the truck is
sitting I can see several of the Reg LED's blinking. Its interesting to watch
the LED's change which Reg they hop to as the pack
balances itself back out. Within a half hour they are all back to within 0.25
V.
I was thinking about running some simulations with several settings lower than
what I'm set up for to give some idea what it would
be like with say 156V and 1000A, 144V and 600A, 120V and 400A...etc. Just for
kicks I set the motor voltage limit and battery
current limit down to several lower settings, mainly to limit to keep from
slipping my clutch, but also to see what it would have
been like had I gone to say 144V like originally planned, or a smaller
controller if I wanted to save money. Are there any
specific limit points anyone would want to see? One would have to keep in mind
these comparisons would be to a 4000 lb vehicle.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
> Behalf Of Steve Condie
> Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 4:55 PM
> To: ev@...
> Subject: Re: FasTrack 0-60 mph Data
>
>
> Mike - hey, thanks for posting the charts. It is **extremely** helpful to see
how the battery and motor voltage and
> current works in a "real world" vehicle on acceleration. I have one question:
it looks like your batteries sag down
> to 9 volts (or lower) on full acceleration. Have you had any problems with
taking them down that low?
>
>
What I always wanted to know:
My T-125s have a 20hr rate of 240AH. Now: I know that, due to Peukert's
law I am going to get just about 1/2 of that for driving.
In comparing alternative battery chemistries: Do those batteries suffer
some kind of Peukert's effect too? Or - to rephrase the question: How many
LiIon or Lipo Ah's would I have to get in order to have at least as much
avaiable as my T-125s provide?
I understand that LiPos or LiIons would save much weight, but if I would
shell out significant money, it should make an impact on range too.
Thanks for your answers.
Michaela
The article at this page is pretty blah, but there is a video clip of
the GM Hy-Wire being test driven, explained, and disassembled.
This is what I would like to do with my conversion.
-Mike
The 225A limit (with controller set to 350A) seems to have gone away...
I can pull 350A until the motor RPM climbs a bit, then it tapers down to
200A or so. I can maintain 200A up to the 5500RPM motor limit. My first
test was near dusk, and my ammeter isn't illuminated yet. Oops!
> Since you are running only 114 volts, the amps will be a bit high and
> the performance will be a bit sluggish on the top end.
I was tempted to use 8V/12V floodies or even AGMs for higher pack voltage.
Repeat after me: This is a grocery getter, this is a grocery getter, this
is a grocery getter. The local speed limit is 30MPH, 30MPH, 30MPH!
> Also, if you have set the battery low voltage limit to, say,
> 99 volts, this will limit the current you can draw from them.
The 99V is a "warning" that flashes the battery light. The Zilla low
voltage limit is set somewhat lower. As is, the 99V warning only flashes
periodically during hard acceleration.
> 100A at 114V is 11400 watts. If we did this for an hour,
> we would use 11.4 kwh and travel 40 miles 11,400 wh/40 = 285 Wh/mile.
> Seems reasonable, seems good actually.
Duh! I forgot that I can multiply and divide... Thanks! So far it seems I
use about 100A whether driving 30 or 45! I need to find some level highway
to get better numbers. I've been (impatiently) waiting for the other EVer
in town to return from Italy so I can compare numbers with him (78
Scirroco, 108V, 9" ADC, Curtis 1221C).
Now if I can clean the batteries well enough to get rid of the newly
developed pack-to-chassis connection. It's just enough to light an LED at
the 10V mark. Unfortunately I may have to redesign a battery hold down for
long term improvement :(
Thanks for all the help/encouragement. The EVDL has some very useful info
flowing through it (from time to time :) )
Adrian
Anyone have any reports on how things went at PIR on the 30th?
Regards,
Chris Brune
On 4 Jul 2006 at 10:41, Adrian DeLeon wrote:
> So far it seems I use
> about 100A whether driving 30 or 45!
That does seem a bit high, especially for 30 mph. It's been a long time
since I've had it, but IIRC, my 96v Honda Civic with a Prestolite motor used
around 50 amps (5kw) when cruising at ~35 mph.
I'm assuming you're running a series motor. Are you keeping RPM as high as
possible, within the motor's RPM limits - that is, are you always using as
>low< a gear as you can? A series motor EV is the exact opposite of a gas
car - you shift >down< for economy and >up< for acceleration.
Also check for brake drag, tire inflation, tight bearings, and excessive toe
in the front end. You should be able to roll the car on a flat surface,
just by leaning against it.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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On 4 Jul 2006 at 9:30, Michaela Merz wrote:
> In comparing alternative battery chemistries: Do those batteries suffer
> some kind of Peukert's effect too?
Peukert's equation describes the behavior of lead batteries and doesn't
apply to other chemistries. I'm not an electrochemist, but I think the
difference is that in most other chemistries the electrolyte serves only as
an ion carrier and doesn't take part in the reaction, as it does in lead
batteries.
The only alternative I'm directly familiar with are flooded nicads. They
have significantly less diminution of capacity at higher currents. From
0.1C to 2C (10a to 200a in this example), the apparent capacity loss is less
than 15% (110ah vs 95ah).
I suspect much of that diminution is caused by internal resistance and
heating. The reason I say this is that the initial and terminal voltages
are both somewhat reduced by the load. The characteristic voltage "fall off
the cliff" at the end of discharge definitely happens at a lower voltage.
I know nothing about the specifics of other chemistries (though I'd think
that NiMH would be similar). Others here who have experience with NiMH and
Lithium batteries may be able to provide more information.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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Class F insulation? Isn't that a bit low in the heat department? I
remember the headaches that EVers had 20 years ago, using the old Baldor
motors with (IIRC) class E insulation.
Also, I wonder what "n 5000 rmp" means. Something about a ramp rate???
Makes no sense to me.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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Cliff wrote:
> The Valence site lists the continuous discharge as
150 amps with a 30 second peak of 300 amps for the
U24-12XP batteries.
http://www.valence.com/pdffiles/U-Charge%20XP%20DS%20Jan06.pdf
Did you get different information?
Marc Kohler said their new copper interconnects would
do 600A, but changing the spec was too much work. My
guess is that either there are significant known
tradeoffs to the other specs, or there is too much
testing required, or too many unknowns, and I think
they are focusing their energy on other solutions for
higher power applications. I remember something they
announced last year that was 15C continuous/25A peak
for a similar price and capacity and 50% less cycle
life, but they weren't out in large formats at the
time I inquired.
> Part of the reason we went with Kokam was the
superior max discharge: 500 amp continuous, 800 amps
peak. The 300 amps / 600 amps would not be bad for
normal road use but 150 amps / 300 amps was pretty
limiting.
My needs are safe and simple 4 seat payload (read low
weight gain) and mostly surface street driving. I can
avoid freeways, so if these did end up being only 300A
batteries, I'd still do it, relegating to only being a
"city car" that was marginal getting on the freeway.
Due to the 6 milliohm internal resistance, I think
these things will be marginal getting on the freeway
below 50% SOC anyhow.
> I'm not sure what you mean by thermal stability.
Could you post some more information?
According to Valence, common lithium ion polymer
batteries have cobalt oxide that freely gives up their
oxygen, so in the event of thermal runaway they can
catch on fire and not be extinguishable. BMSs can
help avoid this condition, but a wreck or a
manufacturing defect could lead to this condition with
no way of stopping it. Valence claims that their
chemistry is inherently stable. I believe Electrovaya
also claims similar inherent safety, but neither their
batteries nor cars were for sale the last time I
checked.
> What figures do they give on cycle life? I see on
the spec sheet that at 45 degrees C, discharge rate of
C/2 which is 50 amps, that they seem to hit about 80%
of capacity at 600 cycles. The graph does not say if
these are 100% discharges or 80% discharges.
2000 cycles to 80% capacity at 80% DOD, >10000 at <50%
DOD, all at 25C. But I expect ~4% capacity loss to
due age alone at 25C, which on average we are below
here in Santa Rosa, CA. Based on our driving habits
my guess is mine will die of age, not cycles. The
Kokams at 1400 cycles at 100% DOD to 80% capacity at
25C sounds great -- much better than the 500 cycles I
got from somewhere when I was shopping last year.
> The part I like most about the Valence is that they
include a BMS system. Can you tell us more about the
BMS? How does it work? What does it display?
Each battery module has cell voltage, temperature and
current sensors, and automatic shunting circuitry
around each of the 4 cells during charging. They have
LED indicators that indicate alarm state. They have
two RS485 connectors that daisy chains them up to a
little BMS box that can drive inter-module charge
balancing, send messages to a Vehicle Management Unit
via CANBus, and drive gages, dash lights and
contactors. My plan for now is to have it drive my
Brusa charger over CANBus, a relay in series with the
main contactor to interrupt the Zilla, my stock fuel
gage with an offset and gain circuit, and early
warning and error dash lights.
David wrote:
>If it is not being to personal what did the 12
U24-12XP batteries and a U-BMS-XP-HV battery
management unit cost.
$19K including shipping, but per my earlier post,
prices given to someone else were higher.
Chris
Mr Peukert studied lead acid battery because it was available at that time
but all batteries have such peukert effect.
It's a voltage sag when pumping lots of current which make that battery
touch his low voltage(and temp) limit faster than his nominal capacity
should produce.
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <evpost@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2006 8:15 PM
Subject: Re: Comparing batteries - was Re: Valence Technology Batteries
> On 4 Jul 2006 at 9:30, Michaela Merz wrote:
>
> > In comparing alternative battery chemistries: Do those batteries suffer
> > some kind of Peukert's effect too?
>
> Peukert's equation describes the behavior of lead batteries and doesn't
> apply to other chemistries. I'm not an electrochemist, but I think the
> difference is that in most other chemistries the electrolyte serves only
as
> an ion carrier and doesn't take part in the reaction, as it does in lead
> batteries.
>
> The only alternative I'm directly familiar with are flooded nicads. They
> have significantly less diminution of capacity at higher currents. From
> 0.1C to 2C (10a to 200a in this example), the apparent capacity loss is
less
> than 15% (110ah vs 95ah).
>
> I suspect much of that diminution is caused by internal resistance and
> heating. The reason I say this is that the initial and terminal voltages
> are both somewhat reduced by the load. The characteristic voltage "fall
off
> the cliff" at the end of discharge definitely happens at a lower voltage.
>
> I know nothing about the specifics of other chemistries (though I'd think
> that NiMH would be similar). Others here who have experience with NiMH
and
> Lithium batteries may be able to provide more information.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
> or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
Hey Neon and all
Just catching up on really old mail
--- Neon John <jgd@...> wrote way back in April:
> On Sun, 9 Apr 2006 14:12:57 -0700 (PDT), David Dymaxion
> <david_dymaxion@...> wrote:
> >You do have to be careful. Some manufacturers want to make the Cd
> >sound as good as possible, so they'll just use the height*width of
> >the care for the area. I think one of the best sources for aero info
> >is <http://www.epa.gov/otaq/tcldata.htm>.
>
> Here's a very accurate method of measuring the frontal area of your
> car. It is a variation of the old scientist's trick called graphical
> integration, updated for the digital world.
> First, get 4 yard sticks or other known length objects and make a
> square. Position this square upright in front of the car.
How `bout wrapping the vehicle at it's fattest point with a piece of
line. Measure the length of the line, treat it as the circumference of
a circle and solve for area of circle with Phi?
Just 2cents. Metric here in Cda now, so getting hard to find yard
sticks <smile>
Lock
Toronto
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David Roden wrote:
> Also, I wonder what "n 5000 rmp" means.
Just a bit of dyslexia, I suspect. "5000 rpm" seems the likely intent.
Cheers,
Roger.
Lock, this string thing won't quite work out. A circle with radius = 3.1831 has
a circumference 20 and area 31.83. A square with
sides = 5 also has perimeter 20 but area is only 25. A rectangle is even less
efficient at containing space. If one side is 3
and the other is 7 it has the same perimeter of 20 as the square and circle
except the area is now only 21. Your string would
have to keep the shape of the car profile, which is the same thing as doing the
photo trick mentioned earlier. Sorry ;-)
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
> Lock Hughes wrote
> Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2006 10:49 AM
> How `bout wrapping the vehicle at it's fattest point with a piece of
> line. Measure the length of the line, treat it as the circumference of
> a circle and solve for area of circle with Phi?
>
> Just 2cents. Metric here in Cda now, so getting hard to find yard
> sticks <smile>
>
> Lock
> Toronto
Had some extra time today so I spent some time at
wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_vehicle_conversion
It seems that almost all of the categories have very
little information and links. I just thought the list
could contribute our collective knowlege to make this
a better resourse for those looking into EV's.
Rod
Things went pretty well. The first run of the night was in the 12.5 range
and the second in the 12.3. Starting out with these two runs, we were all
sure that it was going to be a record breaking night, but it was not to be.
The third run was in the 12.6 range and a couple more 12.3's. John was
worried there might be something breaking up in the rear end again, and the
batteries were getting to hot to touch, so with the times seeming to have
flattened out, John called it a night. I know he went home dissapointed,
but I would imagine after a couple of days reflection, he's probably pretty
happy to have run so fast, so consistantly. Also, these times are the
fastest he personally has ever run down the track in WZ. Tim Brehm made the
record setting runs.
Also, we did mostly get the charging worked out, and after a couple of hours
were able to put away the generator. Now that it has been done once, I
don't anticipate any more gas powered electric cars at PIR, so that will be
very nice.
BTW - I took a look at your DC to DC. It looks great and has a prominent
place over the front driver side fender !!! At least I think that was your
DC to DC. It was a new part I did not recognize.
Damon
>From: "Chris Brune" <csbrune_ev@...>
>Reply-To: ev@...
>To: <ev@...>
>Subject: Re: White Zombie PIR June 30th & New DC-DC
>Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2006 10:54:09 -0700
>
>Anyone have any reports on how things went at PIR on the 30th?
>
>Regards,
>Chris Brune
>
brute force yes the blower would make it pointless. But if you put some
brains on the blower so it only turns on when inside air temp > outside you
can save some work on the AC unit. The insulation will only change the rate
that the car heats up or cools off. The best insulated car will still heat
up if you let it sit and bake long enough in the sun.
Later,
Wire
>From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
>Reply-To: ev@...
>To: ev@...
>Subject: Re: Air conditioning gains
>Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2006 11:12:00 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>
>Danny Miller wrote:
> >Possible ways to reduce the need to extremely high cooling capacity:
> >1. Insulate roof, walls, maybe even floor
> >2. Paint it white
> >3. Tint the windows other than the windshield
> >4. Automatic or otherwise very convenient shades for all the windows.
>
>Or make the windows double pane, like houses and buildings. Single
>pane windows let tremendous amounts of heat through.
>
> >5. An exhaust fan to remove the high heat it absorbs being in the sun.
>
>If you're going to use a blower to force inside air temperature to match
>outside temperature, then insulation becomes pointless.
>--
>Lee Hart
>
TdS Report #50: Interview: Drew Gillett
Drew, who hails from Bedford, New Hampshire, has been volunteering at the Tour
de Sol since forever. His steady-state job is to post the routes that the
competition follows from place to place, or sometimes in winding closed loops,
with colored laminated cards with arrows that point the way. Having driven the
routes, I can tell you that it is harder than it sounds and that Drew has
developed techniques that can help keep you on course when you're trying to
watch traffic and follow a map and read a milepost-by-milepost narrative.
This year he did an analysis of the Toyota Prius entrants in the 2005 Monte
Carlo-style rally and came up with some interesting results.
"As I see it, the first Prius model is an honest 50 miles-per-gallon car. The
entrants varied in mileages from somewhere in the 40s to 70s, by typically right
around 50."
"The newer Prius, from the same that same data, looks more like a 45
mile-per-gallon car. Part of the reason for that is that they made
improvements to get better mileage, but they also made it into a bigger car.
For example, it is now a 5 seat car with larger frontal area and more weight.
So its improved efficiencies were eaten up by it being a bigger, heavier car.
I'd say that it is an honest 45 miles-per-gallon car. Some people are able to
make it do really well. We've seen some up into the 80s. But overall I see a
bigger car with lower mileage."
I asked Drew if part of what he was seeing could be the difference between
drivers of the first Prius, with several years of driving experience, vs.
drivers of the newer Prius with considerably less experience?
"That is a good point. One of things that made the newer Prius get less
mileage was that they were driving, on average, faster. You learn not to do
that if you want good, high mileage.
"We didn't have so many cars that we could say this is statistically
significant to any great degree, but at the same time that was the general
conclusion I came to. I'll be very interested in seeing if we draw the same
conclusion this year."
Can we say similar things about the Hondas?
"The Insight has been the same, year to year. Every manual Insight is like
every other; every automatic Insight is the same as every other also." So the
comparison between model years doesn't change much.
"What is really interesting are the folks who have put turbochargers and stuff
like that on the Insight. By increasing the engine horsepower and efficiency,
they can run the car at 80 miles per hour with 50-to-60 miles per gallon."
Drew's wife Barbara drove their 2002 Prius in both last year's and this year's
Monte Carlo rally. "She gets better with age. Last year she got 62.something
MPG and this year she got 63.6. She is quite happy."
We then looked at the data together.
2005 Tour de Sol Monte Carlo-style Rally & Fuel Efficiency Competition
Prius 2001-2003, 4 cars
31 MPG
45
51
64
==
48 MPG average
throw out the high and low data points: 48 MPG average
Prius 2004-2005, 9 cars
40
41
44
45
46
46
46
56
60
==
47 MPG average
throw out the high and low data points: 46 MPG average
Then I looked at the data at
http://www.nesea.org/transportation/tour/documents/2006TdSMonteCarloResults_000.\
pdf
2006 Tour de Sol Monte Carlo-style Rally & Fuel Efficiency Competition at
Prius 2001-2003, 4 cars
52
52.8
53.7
63.6
====
55.5 MPG average
throw out the high and low data points: 53.2 MPG average
Prius 2004-2005, 1 car
54
66.8
====
53.2 MPG average
Check out the full Tour de Sol results at
http://www.nesea.org/transportation/tour/2006Results.php
So I don't think the divergence is as great as Drew suggests. And these are
not statistically significant data. "Your mileage may (read `will') vary!"
But the way we get statistically significant data is by having many more
participants.
And if you are a driver of a hybrid, or _any_ vehicle that you think gets great
mileage, consider entering the Tour de Sol Fuel Efficiency Rally next year!
- - - -
The complete set of Tour de Sol Reports for 2006 can be found at:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2006
The complete set of past Tour de Sol Reports can be found at:
http://www.FovealSystems.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
- - - -
The above is Copyright 2006 by Michael H. Bianchi.
Permission to copy is granted provided the entire article is presented
without modification and this notice remains attached.
For other arrangements, contact me at +1-973-822-2085 .
- - - -
For more on the NESEA Tour de Sol, see the web page at
http://www.TourdeSol.org
- - - -
Official NESEA Tour de Sol information is available from the sponsor,
the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association (NESEA) at
413 774-6051 , and 50 Miles Street, Greenfield, MA 01301 , and
nesea@... . All media enquiries should be addressed to ...
Stef Komorowski
Classic Communications
508-698-6810
classic.pr@...
TdS Report #51: Photos - Drew and Barbara Gillett
Photographs from the Tour de Sol:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2006/photos_022.html
Drew and Barbara Gillett
Looooong time volunteers at the Tour de Sol,
Barabara and Drew are often behind the scenes.
This year they took one of the first-place prizes in the Monte-Carlo Style Fuel
Efficiency Rally.
This should have been their moment in the sun, but ...
- - - -
The complete set of Tour de Sol Reports for 2006 can be found at:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2006
The complete set of past Tour de Sol Reports can be found at:
http://www.FovealSystems.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
- - - -
The above is Copyright 2006 by Michael H. Bianchi.
Permission to copy is granted provided the entire article is presented
without modification and this notice remains attached.
For other arrangements, contact me at +1-973-822-2085 .
- - - -
For more on the NESEA Tour de Sol, see the web page at
http://www.TourdeSol.org
- - - -
Official NESEA Tour de Sol information is available from the sponsor,
the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association (NESEA) at
413 774-6051 , and 50 Miles Street, Greenfield, MA 01301 , and
nesea@... . All media enquiries should be addressed to ...
Stef Komorowski
Classic Communications
508-698-6810
classic.pr@...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/_W0QQitemZ280003979615QQcmdZViewItem
Still 5 days to go and already 30 bids @ $40,000
Soon EVs will be seen as a good way to invest money ;-)
It is located right around the corner (relatively speaking),
close to the EV-breeding ground of Palo Alto.
Funny - this guy advertises the car with a Palm Pilot and raves
about it, but he apparently bought it just weeks ago.
I think he wanted to increase the resale value or he wanted to
keep his own Palm ;-)
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: CWater@... Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: cor_van_de_water@...
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
TV Show Myth Busters tested this theory, and indeed, I recall found
that slightly better mileage was obtained with AC on and windows up,
than with windows down.
Christopher Zach wrote:
> Robert Chew wrote:
>
>>> Why not just open the windows! :-)
>>
>
> Actually I have done range tests with AC and with the windows open. In
> highway driving, I use more power with windows down than with AC on.
>
> AC does not take much power all things considered.
>
> CZ
>
>
Link?
I found a video linked here:
http://www.ecogeek.org/
Also features the (electrical!) Pivo.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: CWater@... Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: cor_van_de_water@...
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
Behalf Of Mike Ellis
Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2006 10:20 AM
To: ev@...
Subject: Top Gear clip of Hy-Wire
The article at this page is pretty blah, but there is a video clip of
the GM Hy-Wire being test driven, explained, and disassembled.
This is what I would like to do with my conversion.
-Mike
Robert Chew wrote:
> In terms of 80% SOC voltage of the battery, does it vary with the
> current that's being injected into the batts? Please give an example
> of a single 12 volt battery.
When you charge at a (more or less) constant current, the 80% SOC point
is where the voltage begins to rise dramatically. Or, if you hold the
voltage constant, the 80% point is where the current falls to a low
value; 2-4% of the battery's amphour capacity.
Yes, the 80% point does occur at a different voltage depending on the
charging current at that time. For a 12v 100ah battery 80% SOC is about:
13.5v at 2a
14v at 3a
14.5v at 4a
15v at 5a
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
David Roden wrote:
> Class F insulation? Isn't that a bit low in the heat department?
Yes; the old class H (now called class 180 = 180 deg.C) is the norm for
motors. The old class F is now called class 155 (155 deg.C).
> I remember the headaches that EVers had 20 years ago, using the
> old Baldor motors with (IIRC) class E insulation.
I think they had class B (now class 130 = 130 deg.C) insulation. That is
*very* low for a traction motor, so many of them burned up.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
Repalce that fuel cell with a good set of batteries aaand.....!
Bill
Cor van de Water wrote:
> Link?
> I found a video linked here:
> http://www.ecogeek.org/
> Also features the (electrical!) Pivo.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: CWater@... Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: cor_van_de_water@...
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
> Behalf Of Mike Ellis
> Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2006 10:20 AM
> To: ev@...
> Subject: Top Gear clip of Hy-Wire
>
>
> The article at this page is pretty blah, but there is a video clip of
> the GM Hy-Wire being test driven, explained, and disassembled.
>
> This is what I would like to do with my conversion.
>
> -Mike
>
>
Roderick, do you more details on the Taurus conversion available?
What transmission was used? If you are spinning the electric motor and
the car isn't moving, there must be something..
Jack
Roderick Wilde wrote:
> Matt, why do you think you need an external motor to drive the
> accessories? Years ago I built a Ford Taurus with air conditioning and
> power steering all driven off the auxiliary shaft. When you turned the
> key to the start position a latching relay kept it on in idle position
> so that steering and air would work. I used a cermet pot in line with
> the PB6 in order to have very fine idle adjustment. It worked great!
>
> Roderick
>
> Roderick Wilde, President, EV Parts Inc.
> Your Online EV Superstore
> www.evparts.com
> 1-360-385-7082
> Phone: 360-582-1270 Fax: 360-582-1272
> PO Box 834, Carlsborg, WA 98324
> 108-B Business Park Loop, Sequim, WA 98382
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: <mdrobnak@...>
> To: <ev@...>
> Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 7:20 AM
> Subject: Re: DC Motor torque calculations
>
>
>> I got my information from the Netgain web page at:
>> http://www.go-ev.com/motors-warp.html
>>
>>
>> Also, anyone know how accurate the range calculators are (like on
>> Ueve's page or www.evconvert.com)? Just as some background, I'm
>> looking to convert a 2000 Lincoln LS, and keeping A/C, P/S, and the
>> automatic transmission...I know I'll need an external motor to drive
>> the accessories...
>>
>> -Matt
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: steve clunn <steveclunn@...>
>> Date: Monday, July 3, 2006 9:32 am
>> Subject: Re: DC Motor torque calculations
>>
>>> Hi Matthew , The 2k zilla that is in Paul's car was in my pick up
>>> first .
>>> You can see it spinning the wheels in 4th gear at
>>> www.grassrootsev.com . I
>>> have no clutch in that set up . After putting on bigger tires and
>>> still
>>> spinning the tires , the tranny started making a funny sound , so I
>>> let Paul
>>> have it , while we wait for Otmar to refill our plate :-)
>>> ----- Original Message ----- >
>>> > I met with Paul of World Class Exotics earlier, and got a ride
>>> around in
>>> > his Porsche 959 EV. It uses a Netgain Warp 11" motor, and I was
>>> impressed
>>> > with the performance, considering he used 3rd and 4th only.
>>> >
>>> I'm making him a clutchless adapter , it will be much more
>>> impressive with
>>> out the clutch which now slips quite a bit.
>>>
>>>
>>> > He said that the Netgain engineers were able to calculate how
>>> much torque
>>> > the motor would make based upon voltage, amperage, and
>>> efficiency. The
>>> > dyno graphs are at 72v, and don't really give real world
>>> performance.
>>> I haven't seen the graphs for the 11 , where did you see them . If
>>> they are
>>> at 2000 amp from 0 to 72v then we would know something as max
>>> torque will
>>> be at a low rpm .
>>> Steve Clunn
>>>
>>>
>>> >
>>> > So my question is - does anyone know how to extrapolate the
>>> torque
>>> > produced by a DC motor based upon the 72V rating? If so, could
>>> you share
>>> > the equation with the list?
>>> >
>>> > Thanks a lot.
>>> >
>>> > -Matthew Drobnak
>>> > Future EV driver :-)
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.8/380 - Release Date: 6/30/2006
>>
>>
>
>
>
--- Mike Willmon <electrabishi@...> wrote:
> I was thinking about running some simulations with several settings lower
> Are there any specific limit points anyone would want to see?
> One would have to keep in mind these comparisons would be to a 4000 lb
> vehicle.
I wouldn't mind seeing 144v or 120v @ 300-400 Amps. I already have a 4000lb
vehicle with 18 floodeds @ 108 v and have my controller set to pull no more
than about 300 amps. Although it has some capacitors in it to give it a little
boost to about 400 for a few seconds (At least I'm pretty sure).
I would be curious to see if that makes much more difference in accel times to
30 and 45 mph. I guess to see if you could also safely merge on most freeways
at about 65mph too.
Thanks,
Chet
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Hi Damon,
Thanks for the report. I'm interested to what the charging solution ended
up being. That will be great to not have to listen to the generator
anymore.
Well hopefully the DC/DC worked as well as looked. ;-)
Regards,
Chris Brune
----- Original Message -----
From: "damon henry" <damonhenry@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2006 2:48 PM
Subject: Re: White Zombie PIR June 30th & New DC-DC
> Things went pretty well. The first run of the night was in the 12.5 range
> and the second in the 12.3. Starting out with these two runs, we were all
> sure that it was going to be a record breaking night, but it was not to
be.
> The third run was in the 12.6 range and a couple more 12.3's. John was
> worried there might be something breaking up in the rear end again, and
the
> batteries were getting to hot to touch, so with the times seeming to have
> flattened out, John called it a night. I know he went home dissapointed,
> but I would imagine after a couple of days reflection, he's probably
pretty
> happy to have run so fast, so consistantly. Also, these times are the
> fastest he personally has ever run down the track in WZ. Tim Brehm made
the
> record setting runs.
>
> Also, we did mostly get the charging worked out, and after a couple of
hours
> were able to put away the generator. Now that it has been done once, I
> don't anticipate any more gas powered electric cars at PIR, so that will
be
> very nice.
>
> BTW - I took a look at your DC to DC. It looks great and has a prominent
> place over the front driver side fender !!! At least I think that was
your
> DC to DC. It was a new part I did not recognize.
>
> Damon
>
>
> >From: "Chris Brune" <csbrune_ev@...>
> >Reply-To: ev@...
> >To: <ev@...>
> >Subject: Re: White Zombie PIR June 30th & New DC-DC
> >Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2006 10:54:09 -0700
> >
> >Anyone have any reports on how things went at PIR on the 30th?
> >
> >Regards,
> >Chris Brune
> >
>
EV Digest 5619
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Controller Simulations (Was RE: FasTrack 0-60 mph Data)
by Cor van de Water <CWater@...>
2) RE: Controller Simulations (Was RE: FasTrack 0-60 mph Data)
by Mike Willmon <electrabishi@...>
3) RE: DC Motor torque calculations
by Cor van de Water <CWater@...>
4) RE: Controller Simulations (Was RE: FasTrack 0-60 mph Data)
by Chet Fields <chetfields@...>
5) Re: DC Motor torque calculations
by Jack Murray <jack@...>
6) "DC Inverter" heat pump
by cowtown@...
7) "More Electric Vehicles"
by nikki <nikki@...>
8) hot climate performance??
by mike phillips <evtransformer@...>
9) RE: DC Motor torque calculations
by Cor van de Water <CWater@...>
10) Re: hot climate performance??
by "David Roden" <evpost@...>
11) Re: EV digest 5618
by "David Stevens" <oolbp@...>
12) Re: hot climate performance??
by Bob Bath <civicwithacord@...>
13) Re: DC Motor torque calculations
by "Roland Wiench" <ev_7@...>
14) Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)
by John Wayland <jw@...>
You can safely merge on a freeway with >any< vehicle that
can reach a 60-ish speed.
You just need more room and better timing if you have a
vehicle that needs more time to come up to that max speed.
Otherwise the large trailer trucks would neven make it onto
the freeway.
My truck needs a long time to come up to speed, so I hate it
when a SUV accelerates to overtake me, swerves in front of me
and brakes sharply to merge onto the (full) off-ramp.
I usually stay in the "truck" lane (nr 3 on the 4-lane 101)
Only when the normal lanes are slowing down and the carpool
lane is still moving will I go to the "fast" lane and merge into
the nr 2 if there is a queue behind me.
I am usually less than 6 miles on the freeway.
I sometimes take the Expressway instead (a local invention,
it is an arterial road with 50 MPH limit), though speeds are
often above 60 and it only has 2+2 lanes and enough traffic
lights to make it drain my batteries much faster than a
constant 55 to 60 on the Freeway.
BTW, my truck weighs about 4900 lbs and has a 50 kW motor
but at higher speeds the back-EMF and inductance limit the AC
current, so the power is limited to about 30 kW.
Because this is a fixed-gear setup, there is not much that
I can do about it, except for increasing the pack voltage.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: CWater@... Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: cor_van_de_water@...
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
Behalf Of Chet Fields
Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2006 9:30 PM
To: ev@...
Subject: Controller Simulations (Was RE: FasTrack 0-60 mph Data)
--- Mike Willmon <electrabishi@...> wrote:
> I was thinking about running some simulations with several settings lower
> Are there any specific limit points anyone would want to see?
> One would have to keep in mind these comparisons would be to a 4000 lb
> vehicle.
I wouldn't mind seeing 144v or 120v @ 300-400 Amps. I already have a 4000lb
vehicle with 18 floodeds @ 108 v and have my controller set to pull no more
than about 300 amps. Although it has some capacitors in it to give it a
little
boost to about 400 for a few seconds (At least I'm pretty sure).
I would be curious to see if that makes much more difference in accel times
to
30 and 45 mph. I guess to see if you could also safely merge on most
freeways
at about 65mph too.
Thanks,
Chet
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
I have a list of 8 settings from 72V to 156V and 300A to 1000A. I'll
reconfigure my controller for each one and pull a couple of
these a day on my way to work this week. I should have something to show by the
weekend.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
> Behalf Of Chet Fields
> Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2006 8:30 PM
> To: ev@...
> Subject: Controller Simulations (Was RE: FasTrack 0-60 mph Data)
>
>
>
> --- Mike Willmon <electrabishi@...> wrote:
> > I was thinking about running some simulations with several settings lower
> > Are there any specific limit points anyone would want to see?
> > One would have to keep in mind these comparisons would be to a 4000 lb
> > vehicle.
>
> I wouldn't mind seeing 144v or 120v @ 300-400 Amps. I already have a 4000lb
> vehicle with 18 floodeds @ 108 v and have my controller set to pull no more
> than about 300 amps. Although it has some capacitors in it to give it a little
> boost to about 400 for a few seconds (At least I'm pretty sure).
>
> I would be curious to see if that makes much more difference in accel times to
> 30 and 45 mph. I guess to see if you could also safely merge on most freeways
> at about 65mph too.
>
> Thanks,
> Chet
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
Jack,
My guess is - the same as any ICE car that is idling out there....
Just simulate the ICE idling and you can continue to use the
accessories in the same way, it is the simplest way to make
a conversion work (but not the most efficient).
Some want to keep it simple and go for the manual gear (or
even fixed gear) would like to get rid of power steering by
swapping in a manual rack if the car did have PS and even
consider removing the vacuum assist for the brakes, although
it often is safer to keep that and add an electric vacuum
pump, which is not hard to do.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: CWater@... Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: cor_van_de_water@...
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
Behalf Of Jack Murray
Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2006 8:12 PM
To: ev@...
Subject: Re: DC Motor torque calculations
Roderick, do you more details on the Taurus conversion available?
What transmission was used? If you are spinning the electric motor and
the car isn't moving, there must be something..
Jack
Roderick Wilde wrote:
> Matt, why do you think you need an external motor to drive the
> accessories? Years ago I built a Ford Taurus with air conditioning and
> power steering all driven off the auxiliary shaft. When you turned the
> key to the start position a latching relay kept it on in idle position
> so that steering and air would work. I used a cermet pot in line with
> the PB6 in order to have very fine idle adjustment. It worked great!
>
> Roderick
>
> Roderick Wilde, President, EV Parts Inc.
> Your Online EV Superstore
> www.evparts.com
> 1-360-385-7082
> Phone: 360-582-1270 Fax: 360-582-1272
> PO Box 834, Carlsborg, WA 98324
> 108-B Business Park Loop, Sequim, WA 98382
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: <mdrobnak@...>
> To: <ev@...>
> Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 7:20 AM
> Subject: Re: DC Motor torque calculations
>
>
>> I got my information from the Netgain web page at:
>> http://www.go-ev.com/motors-warp.html
>>
>>
>> Also, anyone know how accurate the range calculators are (like on
>> Ueve's page or www.evconvert.com)? Just as some background, I'm
>> looking to convert a 2000 Lincoln LS, and keeping A/C, P/S, and the
>> automatic transmission...I know I'll need an external motor to drive
>> the accessories...
>>
>> -Matt
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: steve clunn <steveclunn@...>
>> Date: Monday, July 3, 2006 9:32 am
>> Subject: Re: DC Motor torque calculations
>>
>>> Hi Matthew , The 2k zilla that is in Paul's car was in my pick up
>>> first .
>>> You can see it spinning the wheels in 4th gear at
>>> www.grassrootsev.com . I
>>> have no clutch in that set up . After putting on bigger tires and
>>> still
>>> spinning the tires , the tranny started making a funny sound , so I
>>> let Paul
>>> have it , while we wait for Otmar to refill our plate :-)
>>> ----- Original Message ----- >
>>> > I met with Paul of World Class Exotics earlier, and got a ride
>>> around in
>>> > his Porsche 959 EV. It uses a Netgain Warp 11" motor, and I was
>>> impressed
>>> > with the performance, considering he used 3rd and 4th only.
>>> >
>>> I'm making him a clutchless adapter , it will be much more
>>> impressive with
>>> out the clutch which now slips quite a bit.
>>>
>>>
>>> > He said that the Netgain engineers were able to calculate how
>>> much torque
>>> > the motor would make based upon voltage, amperage, and
>>> efficiency. The
>>> > dyno graphs are at 72v, and don't really give real world
>>> performance.
>>> I haven't seen the graphs for the 11 , where did you see them . If
>>> they are
>>> at 2000 amp from 0 to 72v then we would know something as max
>>> torque will
>>> be at a low rpm .
>>> Steve Clunn
>>>
>>>
>>> >
>>> > So my question is - does anyone know how to extrapolate the
>>> torque
>>> > produced by a DC motor based upon the 72V rating? If so, could
>>> you share
>>> > the equation with the list?
>>> >
>>> > Thanks a lot.
>>> >
>>> > -Matthew Drobnak
>>> > Future EV driver :-)
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.8/380 - Release Date: 6/30/2006
>>
>>
>
>
>
True, but 18 wheelers get a little more respect than our typical EV. ;-)
--- Cor van de Water <CWater@...> wrote:
> You can safely merge on a freeway with >any< vehicle that
> can reach a 60-ish speed.
> You just need more room and better timing if you have a
> vehicle that needs more time to come up to that max speed.
> Otherwise the large trailer trucks would neven make it onto
> the freeway.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Cor, so you mean use a manual trans, and require the clutch to be used
so the motor can spin while idle? Seems a little silly. Only a SHO
taurus has manual trans, all the normal cars are automatics, which of
course, a torque converter allows idling, but doesn't seem appropriate
for electric motor, not to mention all the extra weight.
Since my '94 Aspire is running great, I bought a '98 Taurus with
pronounced dead motor, so have been conjuring..
Jack
Cor van de Water wrote:
> Jack,
>
> My guess is - the same as any ICE car that is idling out there....
> Just simulate the ICE idling and you can continue to use the
> accessories in the same way, it is the simplest way to make
> a conversion work (but not the most efficient).
>
> Some want to keep it simple and go for the manual gear (or
> even fixed gear) would like to get rid of power steering by
> swapping in a manual rack if the car did have PS and even
> consider removing the vacuum assist for the brakes, although
> it often is safer to keep that and add an electric vacuum
> pump, which is not hard to do.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: CWater@... Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: cor_van_de_water@...
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
> Behalf Of Jack Murray
> Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2006 8:12 PM
> To: ev@...
> Subject: Re: DC Motor torque calculations
>
>
> Roderick, do you more details on the Taurus conversion available?
> What transmission was used? If you are spinning the electric motor and
> the car isn't moving, there must be something..
> Jack
>
> Roderick Wilde wrote:
>
>>Matt, why do you think you need an external motor to drive the
>>accessories? Years ago I built a Ford Taurus with air conditioning and
>>power steering all driven off the auxiliary shaft. When you turned the
>>key to the start position a latching relay kept it on in idle position
>>so that steering and air would work. I used a cermet pot in line with
>>the PB6 in order to have very fine idle adjustment. It worked great!
>>
>>Roderick
>>
>>Roderick Wilde, President, EV Parts Inc.
>> Your Online EV Superstore
>> www.evparts.com
>> 1-360-385-7082
>>Phone: 360-582-1270 Fax: 360-582-1272
>> PO Box 834, Carlsborg, WA 98324
>>108-B Business Park Loop, Sequim, WA 98382
>>
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: <mdrobnak@...>
>>To: <ev@...>
>>Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 7:20 AM
>>Subject: Re: DC Motor torque calculations
>>
>>
>>
>>>I got my information from the Netgain web page at:
>>>http://www.go-ev.com/motors-warp.html
>>>
>>>
>>>Also, anyone know how accurate the range calculators are (like on
>>>Ueve's page or www.evconvert.com)? Just as some background, I'm
>>>looking to convert a 2000 Lincoln LS, and keeping A/C, P/S, and the
>>>automatic transmission...I know I'll need an external motor to drive
>>>the accessories...
>>>
>>>-Matt
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: steve clunn <steveclunn@...>
>>>Date: Monday, July 3, 2006 9:32 am
>>>Subject: Re: DC Motor torque calculations
>>>
>>>
>>>>Hi Matthew , The 2k zilla that is in Paul's car was in my pick up
>>>>first .
>>>>You can see it spinning the wheels in 4th gear at
>>>>www.grassrootsev.com . I
>>>>have no clutch in that set up . After putting on bigger tires and
>>>>still
>>>>spinning the tires , the tranny started making a funny sound , so I
>>>>let Paul
>>>>have it , while we wait for Otmar to refill our plate :-)
>>>>----- Original Message ----- >
>>>>
>>>>>I met with Paul of World Class Exotics earlier, and got a ride
>>>>
>>>>around in
>>>>
>>>>>his Porsche 959 EV. It uses a Netgain Warp 11" motor, and I was
>>>>
>>>>impressed
>>>>
>>>>>with the performance, considering he used 3rd and 4th only.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I'm making him a clutchless adapter , it will be much more
>>>>impressive with
>>>>out the clutch which now slips quite a bit.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>He said that the Netgain engineers were able to calculate how
>>>>
>>>>much torque
>>>>
>>>>>the motor would make based upon voltage, amperage, and
>>>>
>>>>efficiency. The
>>>>
>>>>>dyno graphs are at 72v, and don't really give real world
>>>>
>>>>performance.
>>>>I haven't seen the graphs for the 11 , where did you see them . If
>>>>they are
>>>>at 2000 amp from 0 to 72v then we would know something as max
>>>>torque will
>>>>be at a low rpm .
>>>>Steve Clunn
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>So my question is - does anyone know how to extrapolate the
>>>>
>>>>torque
>>>>
>>>>>produced by a DC motor based upon the 72V rating? If so, could
>>>>
>>>>you share
>>>>
>>>>>the equation with the list?
>>>>>
>>>>>Thanks a lot.
>>>>>
>>>>>-Matthew Drobnak
>>>>>Future EV driver :-)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>>Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.8/380 - Release Date: 6/30/2006
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Perusing eBay, I found an item that brought up a few questions.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280003104238 is a heat pump
that uses a "DC inverter", so it rectifies 120VAC, smooths its out to DC, then
runs it through a 3-phase inverter. If you could jump to just DC input
(especially a range of DC voltages), it might make a nice candidate for cooling
and heating a conversion.
A friend of mine who is registered with the IEE (in the UK) sent me
this this morning in an email. I haven't watched it all yet, but the
tip here is to fast forward in the presentation to about 14 12
minutes since the first bit of the broadcast seems to be the admin
guy setting up the webcam!
http://www.iet.tv/search/index.html?spres=4615
The IEE says "The presentation encompasses a brief overview of on-
going more-electric-vehicle research at the University of Manchester.
It aims to highlight the key themes common to autonomous and semi-
autonomous electric systems research: the need for energy storage,
systems integration, and the growing importance of systems modelling
tools." It's given by Dr Mike Barnes from Manchester University.
Nikki
I hope this isn't such an elementary question it's beneath people to answer,
but what happens to the performance, range, life, etc of an EV when operated
in Phoenix, Arizona conditions? (temps from 110-120 fahrenheit 4 months
out of every year)
Thanks,
MP
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
ALL cars allow idling, the ICE does it, so if you
make the electric motor idle, it will work.
Both with automatic and manual transmission.
I did not say it is going to be efficient....
Personally, I am only looking at manual transmission cars...
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: CWater@... Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: cor_van_de_water@...
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
Behalf Of Jack Murray
Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2006 11:19 PM
To: ev@...
Subject: Re: DC Motor torque calculations
Cor, so you mean use a manual trans, and require the clutch to be used
so the motor can spin while idle? Seems a little silly. Only a SHO
taurus has manual trans, all the normal cars are automatics, which of
course, a torque converter allows idling, but doesn't seem appropriate
for electric motor, not to mention all the extra weight.
Since my '94 Aspire is running great, I bought a '98 Taurus with
pronounced dead motor, so have been conjuring..
Jack
Cor van de Water wrote:
> Jack,
>
> My guess is - the same as any ICE car that is idling out there....
> Just simulate the ICE idling and you can continue to use the
> accessories in the same way, it is the simplest way to make
> a conversion work (but not the most efficient).
>
> Some want to keep it simple and go for the manual gear (or
> even fixed gear) would like to get rid of power steering by
> swapping in a manual rack if the car did have PS and even
> consider removing the vacuum assist for the brakes, although
> it often is safer to keep that and add an electric vacuum
> pump, which is not hard to do.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: CWater@... Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: cor_van_de_water@...
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
> Behalf Of Jack Murray
> Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2006 8:12 PM
> To: ev@...
> Subject: Re: DC Motor torque calculations
>
>
> Roderick, do you more details on the Taurus conversion available?
> What transmission was used? If you are spinning the electric motor and
> the car isn't moving, there must be something..
> Jack
>
> Roderick Wilde wrote:
>
>>Matt, why do you think you need an external motor to drive the
>>accessories? Years ago I built a Ford Taurus with air conditioning and
>>power steering all driven off the auxiliary shaft. When you turned the
>>key to the start position a latching relay kept it on in idle position
>>so that steering and air would work. I used a cermet pot in line with
>>the PB6 in order to have very fine idle adjustment. It worked great!
>>
>>Roderick
>>
>>Roderick Wilde, President, EV Parts Inc.
>> Your Online EV Superstore
>> www.evparts.com
>> 1-360-385-7082
>>Phone: 360-582-1270 Fax: 360-582-1272
>> PO Box 834, Carlsborg, WA 98324
>>108-B Business Park Loop, Sequim, WA 98382
>>
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: <mdrobnak@...>
>>To: <ev@...>
>>Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 7:20 AM
>>Subject: Re: DC Motor torque calculations
>>
>>
>>
>>>I got my information from the Netgain web page at:
>>>http://www.go-ev.com/motors-warp.html
>>>
>>>
>>>Also, anyone know how accurate the range calculators are (like on
>>>Ueve's page or www.evconvert.com)? Just as some background, I'm
>>>looking to convert a 2000 Lincoln LS, and keeping A/C, P/S, and the
>>>automatic transmission...I know I'll need an external motor to drive
>>>the accessories...
>>>
>>>-Matt
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: steve clunn <steveclunn@...>
>>>Date: Monday, July 3, 2006 9:32 am
>>>Subject: Re: DC Motor torque calculations
>>>
>>>
>>>>Hi Matthew , The 2k zilla that is in Paul's car was in my pick up
>>>>first .
>>>>You can see it spinning the wheels in 4th gear at
>>>>www.grassrootsev.com . I
>>>>have no clutch in that set up . After putting on bigger tires and
>>>>still
>>>>spinning the tires , the tranny started making a funny sound , so I
>>>>let Paul
>>>>have it , while we wait for Otmar to refill our plate :-)
>>>>----- Original Message ----- >
>>>>
>>>>>I met with Paul of World Class Exotics earlier, and got a ride
>>>>
>>>>around in
>>>>
>>>>>his Porsche 959 EV. It uses a Netgain Warp 11" motor, and I was
>>>>
>>>>impressed
>>>>
>>>>>with the performance, considering he used 3rd and 4th only.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I'm making him a clutchless adapter , it will be much more
>>>>impressive with
>>>>out the clutch which now slips quite a bit.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>He said that the Netgain engineers were able to calculate how
>>>>
>>>>much torque
>>>>
>>>>>the motor would make based upon voltage, amperage, and
>>>>
>>>>efficiency. The
>>>>
>>>>>dyno graphs are at 72v, and don't really give real world
>>>>
>>>>performance.
>>>>I haven't seen the graphs for the 11 , where did you see them . If
>>>>they are
>>>>at 2000 amp from 0 to 72v then we would know something as max
>>>>torque will
>>>>be at a low rpm .
>>>>Steve Clunn
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>So my question is - does anyone know how to extrapolate the
>>>>
>>>>torque
>>>>
>>>>>produced by a DC motor based upon the 72V rating? If so, could
>>>>
>>>>you share
>>>>
>>>>>the equation with the list?
>>>>>
>>>>>Thanks a lot.
>>>>>
>>>>>-Matthew Drobnak
>>>>>Future EV driver :-)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>>Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.8/380 - Release Date: 6/30/2006
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
On 5 Jul 2006 at 1:15, mike phillips wrote:
> what happens to the performance, range, life, etc of an EV when operated
> in Phoenix, Arizona conditions?
Obviously cooling is an issue, for the motor and the controller. But for
the typical commuter EV, the most annoying problem IMO is the hit in battery
cycle life. High operating temperatures are quick death for nicad and NiMH
batteries, and will significantly shorten the life of lead batteries. I
don't know about the effect on Lithium batteries.
My Solectria Force lived its first years in Arizona, as an APS employee.
Motor and inverter overheating weren't much of a problem, but its early 12v
flooded marine battery packs (various brands) seldom lasted through a
summer. I think the average life was around 9 months. The Hawkers did
better - about 2 years, IIRC.
Seems to me that GM's EV unit decided not to even try the NiMH EV-1 in AZ.
In CA they routed the air-con into the battery tunnel. (The battery
ventilation on that car was apparently not too well designed.) Someone
please correct me if I'm wrong about that.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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unsubscribe
----- Original Message -----
From: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2006 10:29 PM
Subject: EV digest 5618
>
> EV Digest 5618
>
> Topics covered in this issue include:
>
> 1) Golfcart diff on eBay
> by cowtown@...
> 2) 9" series-wound Kostov on eBay
> by cowtown@...
> 3) RE: FasTrack 0-60 mph Data
> by Mike Willmon <electrabishi@...>
> 4) Comparing batteries - was Re: Valence Technology Batteries
> by "Michaela Merz" <misch@...>
> 5) Top Gear clip of Hy-Wire
> by "Mike Ellis" <michael.ellis@...>
> 6) Re: My Cabby lives! (Zilla voltage/current limit question)
> by "Adrian DeLeon" <adrian@...>
> 7) Re: White Zombie PIR June 30th & New DC-DC
> by "Chris Brune" <csbrune_ev@...>
> 8) Re: My Cabby lives! (Zilla voltage/current limit question)
> by "David Roden" <evpost@...>
> 9) Re: Comparing batteries - was Re: Valence Technology Batteries
> by "David Roden" <evpost@...>
> 10) Re: 9" series-wound Kostov on eBay
> by "David Roden" <evpost@...>
> 11) Re: Valence Technology Batteries
> by Chris Jones <chris_b_jones@...>
> 12) Re: Comparing batteries - was Re: Valence Technology Batteries
> by "Philippe Borges" <philippe.borges@...>
> 13) Re: frontal area
> by Lock Hughes <lockhughes@...>
> 14) RE: 9" series-wound Kostov on eBay
> by "Roger Stockton" <rstockton@...>
> 15) RE: frontal area
> by Mike Willmon <electrabishi@...>
> 16) Wikipedia EV conversion
> by Rod Hower <rodhower@...>
> 17) Re: White Zombie PIR June 30th & New DC-DC
> by "damon henry" <damonhenry@...>
> 18) Re: Air conditioning gains
> by "Peter Shabino" <wireb@...>
> 19) TdS Report #50: Interview: Drew Gillett
> by TdS_Reports@...
> 20) TdS Report #51: Photos - Drew and Barbara Gillett
> by TdS_Reports@...
> 21) Another RAV4 EV on Ebay
> by Cor van de Water <CWater@...>
> 22) Re: air conditioning for ev's
> by Jack Murray <jack@...>
> 23) RE: Top Gear clip of Hy-Wire
> by Cor van de Water <CWater@...>
> 24) Re: Dump Charger
> by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
> 25) Re: 9" series-wound Kostov on eBay
> by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
> 26) Re: Top Gear clip of Hy-Wire
> by Bill & Nancy <njbrw549@...>
> 27) Re: DC Motor torque calculations
> by Jack Murray <jack@...>
> 28) Controller Simulations (Was RE: FasTrack 0-60 mph Data)
> by Chet Fields <chetfields@...>
> 29) Re: White Zombie PIR June 30th & New DC-DC
> by "Chris Brune" <csbrune_ev@...>
>
Performance is more a matter of battery voltage and current, motor armature
diameter, weight of batts/weight of chassis, etc.
I use my EV in summer in OR that will hit 105F for two months.
Warmer temps favor longer ranges. Drier climes are better for brushes,
commutator, etc. long-term. I'd be more worried about dust storms getting grit
into motor and controller.
That's all that comes to mind right now.
mike phillips <evtransformer@...> wrote:
I hope this isn't such an elementary question it's beneath people to answer,
but what happens to the performance, range, life, etc of an EV when operated
in Phoenix, Arizona conditions? (temps from 110-120 fahrenheit 4 months
out of every year)
Thanks,
MP
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There is three options to make a automatic work for a EV. One is to leave the
standard torque converter in and idle at about 600 rpm.
The torque converter will add about 1.75:1 in your startup. If your first gear
is a 2.75:1, then 2.75:1 times 1.75:1 times a 3.90:1 axle, then your overall
ratio will be about 18.76:1 which is enough to move a 8000 lb EV.
Installing a locking type torque converter, which you could lock up before you
start moving. You will lose 1.75:1 ratio of the torque converter, so now your
overall ratio is now 10.72:1 which is good for a 4500 lb EV.
To be able to start moving in a automatic at 0 rpm, this will require a external
transmission pump with a regulator. The two lines are tapped into the raise
cast portion on the front of the internal pump. One on the receiver side, and
one on the input side. A transmission shop, can show you were to install these
taps.
There is also a push start kit, that can bolt directly to the internal pump,
that has external lines tap offs.
Normally in this type of external pump installation, the torque converter is
either lock up or is replace with a internal pump shaft that comes off the EV
motor output coupler and slides over the splines of the input shaft of the
transmission. This leaves room for the lines to come off the front of the
internal pump, which goes to a external pump.
The external pump, can be the same type that are use in heavy duty trucks which
is used for pumping the transmission fluid to a cooling radiator.
You then can add a manual value body to the automatic, which will allow you to
stay in that gear. Some even have a extra levers coming out, that you connect
to your clutch pedal, so you can ease out the pedal and release the line
pressure.
Using a locking torque converter, you will have to install very close 90 degree
fittings coming off the internal pump so it will not touch the torque converter.
This set up is like having a 6 speed transmission in a converted 3 speed with 3
speeds manual. In my case, I going to have a wicked 34:1 overall ratio in 1st
gear which I can pull a 42 degree hill at about 200 amps, or if I start in 2nd
gear un-lock, I will have 19.495:1 overall ratio or in lock up it will be
15.31:1 in 1st gear or 9.74:1 in 2nd gear.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Jack Murray<mailto:jack@...>
To: ev@...<mailto:ev@...>
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 12:18 AM
Subject: Re: DC Motor torque calculations
Cor, so you mean use a manual trans, and require the clutch to be used
so the motor can spin while idle? Seems a little silly. Only a SHO
taurus has manual trans, all the normal cars are automatics, which of
course, a torque converter allows idling, but doesn't seem appropriate
for electric motor, not to mention all the extra weight.
Since my '94 Aspire is running great, I bought a '98 Taurus with
pronounced dead motor, so have been conjuring..
Jack
Cor van de Water wrote:
> Jack,
>
> My guess is - the same as any ICE car that is idling out there....
> Just simulate the ICE idling and you can continue to use the
> accessories in the same way, it is the simplest way to make
> a conversion work (but not the most efficient).
>
> Some want to keep it simple and go for the manual gear (or
> even fixed gear) would like to get rid of power steering by
> swapping in a manual rack if the car did have PS and even
> consider removing the vacuum assist for the brakes, although
> it often is safer to keep that and add an electric vacuum
> pump, which is not hard to do.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: CWater@...<mailto:CWater@...> Private:
http://www.cvandewater.com<http://www.cvandewater.com/>
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM:
cor_van_de_water@...<mailto:cor_van_de_water@...>
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com<http://www.proxim.com/>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ev@...<mailto:owner-ev@...>
[mailto:owner-ev@...]On
> Behalf Of Jack Murray
> Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2006 8:12 PM
> To: ev@...<mailto:ev@...>
> Subject: Re: DC Motor torque calculations
>
>
> Roderick, do you more details on the Taurus conversion available?
> What transmission was used? If you are spinning the electric motor and
> the car isn't moving, there must be something..
> Jack
>
> Roderick Wilde wrote:
>
>>Matt, why do you think you need an external motor to drive the
>>accessories? Years ago I built a Ford Taurus with air conditioning and
>>power steering all driven off the auxiliary shaft. When you turned the
>>key to the start position a latching relay kept it on in idle position
>>so that steering and air would work. I used a cermet pot in line with
>>the PB6 in order to have very fine idle adjustment. It worked great!
>>
>>Roderick
>>
>>Roderick Wilde, President, EV Parts Inc.
>> Your Online EV Superstore
>> www.evparts.com<http://www.evparts.com/>
>> 1-360-385-7082
>>Phone: 360-582-1270 Fax: 360-582-1272
>> PO Box 834, Carlsborg, WA 98324
>>108-B Business Park Loop, Sequim, WA 98382
>>
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From:
<mdrobnak@...<mailto:mdrobnak@...>>
>>To: <ev@...<mailto:ev@...>>
>>Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 7:20 AM
>>Subject: Re: DC Motor torque calculations
>>
>>
>>
>>>I got my information from the Netgain web page at:
>>>http://www.go-ev.com/motors-warp.html
>>>
>>>
>>>Also, anyone know how accurate the range calculators are (like on
>>>Ueve's page or www.evconvert.com<http://www.evconvert.com/>)? Just as some
background, I'm
>>>looking to convert a 2000 Lincoln LS, and keeping A/C, P/S, and the
>>>automatic transmission...I know I'll need an external motor to drive
>>>the accessories...
>>>
>>>-Matt
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: steve clunn
<steveclunn@...<mailto:steveclunn@...>>
>>>Date: Monday, July 3, 2006 9:32 am
>>>Subject: Re: DC Motor torque calculations
>>>
>>>
>>>>Hi Matthew , The 2k zilla that is in Paul's car was in my pick up
>>>>first .
>>>>You can see it spinning the wheels in 4th gear at
>>>>www.grassrootsev.com . I
>>>>have no clutch in that set up . After putting on bigger tires and
>>>>still
>>>>spinning the tires , the tranny started making a funny sound , so I
>>>>let Paul
>>>>have it , while we wait for Otmar to refill our plate :-)
>>>>----- Original Message ----- >
>>>>
>>>>>I met with Paul of World Class Exotics earlier, and got a ride
>>>>
>>>>around in
>>>>
>>>>>his Porsche 959 EV. It uses a Netgain Warp 11" motor, and I was
>>>>
>>>>impressed
>>>>
>>>>>with the performance, considering he used 3rd and 4th only.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I'm making him a clutchless adapter , it will be much more
>>>>impressive with
>>>>out the clutch which now slips quite a bit.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>He said that the Netgain engineers were able to calculate how
>>>>
>>>>much torque
>>>>
>>>>>the motor would make based upon voltage, amperage, and
>>>>
>>>>efficiency. The
>>>>
>>>>>dyno graphs are at 72v, and don't really give real world
>>>>
>>>>performance.
>>>>I haven't seen the graphs for the 11 , where did you see them . If
>>>>they are
>>>>at 2000 amp from 0 to 72v then we would know something as max
>>>>torque will
>>>>be at a low rpm .
>>>>Steve Clunn
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>So my question is - does anyone know how to extrapolate the
>>>>
>>>>torque
>>>>
>>>>>produced by a DC motor based upon the 72V rating? If so, could
>>>>
>>>>you share
>>>>
>>>>>the equation with the list?
>>>>>
>>>>>Thanks a lot.
>>>>>
>>>>>-Matthew Drobnak
>>>>>Future EV driver :-)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>>Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.8/380 - Release Date: 6/30/2006
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Hello to All,
What a great night of electric drag racing Friday night was! No, White
Zombie did not achieve the goal of busting into the 11s, but the night
was still a big one as far as advancing the notion that electrics are
nothing to laugh at anymore. Many of my EV friends came to take in the
excitement. Of course, the usual suspects were there...Marko Mongillo,
Rich Rudman down from way up north in Washington state, and Damon Henry
(also from Washington across the river) who once again arrived on his
NiCad powered electric motorcycle. In addition to these guys, we were
also accompanied by Steve Kiser and Duane Gergich who brought their
electric drag bike down from Washington. Many from the OEVA (Oregon
Electric Vehicle Association) gang came too...Greg, Gary, Jay and others
I’m sure I’ve forgotten, and many of my forklift wrench work buddies
came, too. Members of my family also showed up. I appreciate all the
support!
Man, those 11's are hard to get! White Zombie did the usual job of
stunning those unfamiliar with today's level of electric car
performance, and yes, I toasted a built El Camino muscle car, beat
another muscle car, beat a 12 second 4 wheel drive turboed Sube ricer,
and held my own (but lost) with two pro stock cars, but nope, no
11-anything...just low 12's. I guess having an electric street legal
sedan that 'only' runs 12.3 @ 100+ mph consistently (all 5 runs were
100+ mph, with the average at 103 mph) aint all that bad :-) Still,
being honest in my assessment, I failed to hit my goal. No excuses this
time. Absolutely perfect weather, good (not great) track conditions, a
fully charged and fully heated up battery pack, and ultra-fast recharge
turn-around times were all on hand setting the stage for 11's, but it
wasn't o be.
There are, however, two reasons that seem to be validation for why the
car seems to have hit another performance wall.
(1) As Tim reported to me on the 2nd pass the only other time we've been
able to make runs at PIR this year (we got rained out after the third
run back in early June), that old bugaboo vibration issue is back...BIG
TIME. The car accelerates like crazy, with a great 60 ft. time and a
strong 1/8th mile time, but at between approximately 90 - 100 mph the
vibration begins and ramps up so strong, it feels like the car is going
to shake apart. The acceleration simply ceases as the car's power
appears to be totally absorbed by the vibration. Then, after what seems
to be maybe two l-o-n-g seconds, suddenly the vibration vanishes, the
car becomes turbine smooth again, and it resumes a fairly decent pull as
the speed goes higher again where the car gains those extra 3-4 mph to
where the trap speed comes out at 103-104 mph. If the vibration wasn't
there and those two seconds of stalled acceleration were replaced with
mild continued high mph acceleration, it's pretty clear to me after
driving the car, that the average ET of 12.3 @ 103-104 mph would have
dropped into high 11's @ 107-108 mph. Oh well, that wasn't the case
Friday night :-(
I suspect we've cracked the Ford nine inch casting again :-( The
instantaneous torque from the Siamese 8 fed with 2000 amps off line is
huge, and the series-to-parallel shift also at 2000 amps around 80 mph
is also brutal. In fact, on the last run Friday night, the car broke
traction at the shift-over point bad enough that the rear end got loose
and the rear tires squealed and chirped with wisps of smoke coming off
both tires (video captured)....this, at near 80 mph! I also noticed lots
of extra 'noises' from the rear end that got worse as the night went
on...not good! The last rebuild of the rear end revealed that we had
been dealing with pinion bearing wobble due to a full split across the
casting of the massive rear end, and that this was the source of the
vibration issue. After another perfect condition 9 inch casting was
found, a pro Ford nine inch rebuilder installed a new Richmond Gear set,
all new bearings, etc., and the vibration was totally gone. Now, it's
back :-( Guess I'm gonna be pulling the rear end out soon to see what's up.
(2) After repeated hard runs and fast recharges, the pack got so hot
that touching the aluminum case nearly burned my hand. The last run of
the night vented the batteries and lifted the pop-on top covers on
several. No squirting liquid and no pooled electrolyte, but they did
vent and make a very light fog that lasted maybe 30 seconds on the
inside of the Lexan compartment cover. This model battery is rated at
925 amps for 5 seconds, and I'm pulling 1000 amps for an average of
double that amount of time, so the batteries are performing well above
their specs.
With the vibration halting top end acceleration and with very hot
stressed-out batteries, I made the decision after 5 strong runs to cut
my losses and stop racing for the night to save the pack. Four days
after the races, all the batteries measure good and the pack rests at
390V, the same it usually does at 75-80 degrees. If any damage was done,
it seems to be minimal, so I'm glad I didn't keep punishing the pack.
Conclusions...
(1) Until I can fix the problem and eliminate the vibration, I don't
think the car is going to hit the 11's...it simply robs too much power.
(2) Strong as they are, I'm close to extracting the max possible power
from the battery pack. According to the graphs Mark Farver made off
Zilla info, at the beginning of a run, each 12V battery falls to about
8.2V at 1000 amps giving about 246 kw (330 hp) of initial power. Near
the end of the 12 second run, each battery has fallen as low as 5.5V
with the pack making just 165 kw of power (221 hp).
I'm rethinking the current stack of 30, 26 ahr, 24 lb. Hawker
Aerobatteries. I remember back to 2000 when I ran a 378 lb. 336V pack of
the half-sized Hawker 16 EP models, 16 ahr 13.5 lb. little bricks of
power that could deliver 750 amps during low 13 second runs, over, and
over. At 750 amps each battery would sag to ~6.9V (going off analog
gauges in the car). A double string of 30 of these for 60 total
batteries would make a 360V pack that weighs about 90 lbs. more. This
pack would sag less than the current packs does at 1000 amps, while
cranking out a whopping 1500 battery amps! Assuming a conservative 6.5V
per battery of initial sag, the pack would kneel to 195V at 1500 amps
for 295 kw (395 hp) of power giving 65 more hp than the current pack of
26 ahr batteries do. It's possible that the overly beefy intercell
straps inside the smaller 16 ahr models contain heating under high loads
better than the larger 26 ahr units the car currently has. Back when we
were racing in the 90's, the earliest versions of the 16 ahr batteries
would fuse open their internal cell straps. After sending destroyed
batteries to Hawker engineers, they redesigned the batteries with
beefier straps...cool. Perhaps the strapping of the bigger 26 ahr models
aren't as proportionately beefy, and with 1000 amps passing through them
(250 amps more than when using their smaller batteries) the inter-cell
straps are a limiting factor...they probably get pretty hot inside the
battery. This would explain the rapid heat build-up and subsequent
venting. On the flip side, it's also possible that with the vibration
eliminated and thus the power robbing issue gone, the car might just
crack the 11's with the current pack. No decision has been made here,
I'm just blabbing my thoughts...
OK, enough post racing analysis...on with the fun parts.
The big show of the night came from Steve Kiser and Duane Gergich with
their electric drag bike. Formerly Father Time's 'Dragon Rose', at the
Sept. '04 Woodburn drags with Duane doing the driving, this gorgeous
156V bike set a NEDRA world record for the MT/D class when it ran an
impressive 12.497 @ 100.7 mph! Steve and Duane now own the bike and have
it in pristine condition these days, with lustrous cherry red paint and
the thing detailed to the max...it's beautiful to look at! They had it
on display at the June 24th SEVA Gasless on Greenwood car show, where I
brow beat them, shamed them, and downright taunted them into bring the
machine south to Portland to join me for Friday night electric drag racing.
I had written:
> As a bonus for EV racing fans, Duane Gergich and Steve Kiser will be
joining us with their Father Time-built outrageous drag bike
> that has run 12.4 @ 100 mph. I twisted their arms yesterday at the
SEVA Greenwood car show.
Well, came they did!
The bike's now nearly 5 year old Hawker batteries, 13 of the little 13
ahr models that weigh just 10.5 lbs. each, had sat un-charged and
un-loved for the past 1.5 years since the record was set...argghh! Yet,
after being charged, driven on, and charged a few times the batteries
shed their sulfation and flexed their electro-chemical muscles and made
some serious power! Can you say 12.5 @ 100 mph? Can you say that, twice?
Before these two great runs though, Duane had a tough time getting his
act together :-) His first run netted an embarrassing 63 mph at 14
seconds....wait...how do you only get 63 mph with a 14 second run?
Easy...you get confused and let off the throttle at the 1/8th mile
marker! Boy, we had Duane hanging his head in shame over this one, and a
certain Plasma Boy took advantage of the moment and really rubbed it in.
Duane took it in stride and laughed along with the rest of us (at
himself), then turned around and stuck it to everybody! After the track
announcer told everyone there was an electric motorcycle in the burnout
pit, Duane decided to shut up the snickers over a 63 mph motorcycle, and
with Steve out on track setting up the burnout perfectly with staging
help, he gave a dramatic go-ahead hand motion, signaling Duane to do the
most scorching bike burnout I've ever seen! It was awesome.
I had also written:
> I can hardly wait to see the crowd's reaction to their quick very red
electric bike with it's BIG electric motor clearly visible, and the fat
>drag slick and long wheelie bar extension making quite statement.
>
The crowd indeed, went nuts cheering and hooting. Then, after expending
a lot of power into the burnout, Duane made the Hawkers puke out even
more power and jammed the bike down the track running a 12.8 second
blast! Hawkers rock! Yeah, this wiped away all those snickers! After
that run, came the 12.5 second 100 mph runs back to back...very
impressive for a non-advanced 8 inch ADC motor, just 156V worth of 5
year old Hawkers, and a Raptor controller. Imagine the motor properly
advanced, 192V of brand new Hawkers, and a Zilla Z1K? Can you say 11's?
How 'bout 300+V of hi current LiIons, a Zilla, and the same motor
prepped by Jim Husted? Can you say 'Hello, Bill Dube?"
Much of the credit for the bike's strong showing has to go to Madman
Rudman, as he had charging the bike down, big time! After I had argued
with him about getting us all hooked into the AC mains at the track so I
could shut off the damn stink'n generator in the back of my service
truck, and after he found a maintenance shack where the power pigtail
box equipped with the Cam Lok connectors was stored, and after he made a
special run to a local home improvement type store to get more
electrical parts, he had us wired! Gone was the noise and stink,
replaced with silent and abundant AC power! Using my PFC50x, during
Zombie recharging, ~12 kw of power was rapidly sent into the hungry
pack, 29.8 amps @ 401V, and the turn-around time was about 7
minutes...every bit as good as I used to get with a dump charge pack!
Madman repeatedly charged the bike up to 80% in 3 minutes and it was
fully charged and ready to run again in 5 scant minutes...a 5 minute
turn-around! Of course, the mighty Hawkers simply took in the power,
dished it out, then took it in again...remember, they are nearly 5 years
old, and sat for 1.5 years uncharged and unused...incredible batteries!
Did I say, Hawkers rock?
Back to White Zombie...The night was bitter sweet, with the first run
one of the most exciting, for sure. Normally, the first run comes in at
around 13 flat, with the second run a high 12, then subsequent runs
getting quicker as the battery pack heats up. Friday started off much
better though. For the first attempt, White Zombie was lined up next to
a very loud V8 muscle car, a green Chevy El Camino with a built 350 cid
V8. This bad ass machine had fat drag slicks in back and its heavily
cammed V8 lumped and thumped at idle in true muscle car fashion. At the
burnout pits the Chevy did a ferocious burnout that had the crowd's
attention immediately...all the while I drove around the water pit and
waited for him to end his testosterone fueled display of power. I had
figured that with a wimpy first run going to be in the low 13s, why
bother to do a burnout? The El Camino driver was serving notice that the
little 'ol Datsun next to him was going to get blown away, and he was
jabbing the throttle making the car jump...the car acted much like a
bull does as he snorts and claws the dirt. The best part, is that this
whole showdown was captured by a professional camera crew that had come
down from Seattle to do a special on 'White Zombie vs the muscle cars'.
I had previously written:
> there was a reporter/camera crew covering the Greenwood EVent....the
reporter/camera crew are heading to Portland to film both >electrics
running against the gassers this Friday, and to hopefully capture White
Zombie cracking the 11s.
So, why were these guys so pumped about coming to the drags to get this
on tape? It goes back to the Seattle car show on June 24th. The
interview guy is a hoot, and goes by the nickname ‘Pixel’. Pixel had
talked with me about having seen both the ‘Sucking Amps’ show featuring
Rod Wilde, his crew, and ‘Gone Postal’, and the ‘Monster Garage episode
featuring the build crew that included Mad Man Rudman and Shawn Lawless.
He commented that for him it was disappointing that in both shows, the
electrics didn’t actually win their races and that cool as they were, in
the end they underperformed for this reason or that, and they got beat
by the gas cars. He then said to me, “So, you actually ‘win’ races
against the gassers?” I said, “Sure, I beat them all the time. I also
loose to them as well. There’s always faster cars. But in general, White
Zombie is very competitive with the cars it runs against, and it wins
more than loses the heads up matches it gets into.” Pixel then said,
“Cool, then the world needs to see this. There needs to be a show where
the electric beats the gas cars. Note....I'm not trying to diss any of
my EV buddies or their hard earned accomplishments here, these comments
are direct quotes from Pixel.
Back to the track....Frankly, I was a bit concerned that this first
battle might not turn out so great for the cameras, as the El Camino
'did' sound and look as if it could kick my Datsun's butt. I would later
hear that some of the younger dudes who knew my car had put their money
on the Zombie. We staged as the announcer told everyone that the little
white Datsun was an electric car. Then the tree's lights sequenced
down...yellow, yellow, yellow....FLOOR the
ACCELERATOR!!!!....Green.....Wheels lift, nose in the air, my neck
snapped back, and the race was on! The El Camino's V8 roared and shook
my guts, but the sound faded as he couldn't stay with the Zombie. The
run felt strong and the Zombie pulled hard, then the parallel up shift
happened accompanied by a brief rear end swing as the drag radials broke
loose then grabbed. I could still hear the El Camino at full boil, but I
could also see him in my rear view mirror :-) The best part for me, is
that this poor muscle head dude had to read the 'SUCK AMPS' plastered
across the Zombie's rear window all the way down the track as he was
getting whupped by a little 'ol tin can Datsun (as Rudman calls it) with
a bunch of batteries! The finish line reader boards said it all....El
Camino 13.091 @ 100.75 mph - White Zombie 12.524 @ 101.76 mph, all
captured by a professional film crew! Never, had White Zombie been
driven to the track to run a mid 12 out of the box...an incredible first
run for the night, and we were all convinced the car was poised to rip
into the 11s. Of course, it felt great knowing the camera crew had
already got what they came for....filming an electric car take on and
beat muscle cars.
To be continued....
See Ya.....John Wayland
>
EV Digest 5620
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) (Was RE: FasTrack 0-60 mph Data)
by "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
2) Re: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)Comments.
by "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
3) Re: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)
by "Roderick Wilde" <roderick@...>
4) Re: DC Motor torque calculations
by mdrobnak@...
5) Re: Controller Simulations (Was RE: FasTrack 0-60 mph Data)
by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
6) Box Office Returns for WKTEC
by "Roderick Wilde" <roderick@...>
7) AC for EV
by "Harry Houck" <Harry.Houck@...>
8) Re: DC Motor torque calculations
by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
9) Re: hot climate performance??
by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
10) New England EAA Meeting
by <bobrice@...>
11) Re: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <primobassoon@...>
12) Re: Box Office Returns for WKTEC
by "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
13) Re: hot climate performance??
by Jack Murray <jack@...>
14) Re: Comparing batteries - was Re: Valence Technology Batteries
by Chris Jones <chris_b_jones@...>
15) Re: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)
by matwete@...
16) Re: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)
by KilowattA798@...
17) Re: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)
by Christopher Zach <czach@...>
18) Re: Comparing batteries - was Re: Valence Technology Batteries
by "Roland Wiench" <ev_7@...>
19) Idling motor, was: DC Motor torque calculations
by Cor van de Water <CWater@...>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chet Fields" <chetfields@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 2:17 AM
Subject: RE: Controller Simulations (Was RE: FasTrack 0-60 mph Data)
> True, but 18 wheelers get a little more respect than our typical EV. ;-)
> Yeah, they just GO and YOU better get out of the way!You try that in A
Rabbit an' you will get run over! You sorta plan ahead and FLOOR yur EV,
this is why you should HAVE that power, EVen if you don't usually use it,
think 400amps at 120 volts! That's fast enough, Ihaven't had a problem with
it. If folks see that you are TRYING tthey give ya a break(brake)!
Seeya
Bob
> --- Cor van de Water <CWater@...> wrote:
>
> > You can safely merge on a freeway with >any< vehicle that
> > can reach a 60-ish speed.
> > You just need more room and better timing if you have a
> > vehicle that needs more time to come up to that max speed.
> > Otherwise the large trailer trucks would neven make it onto
> > the freeway.
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
Hi John an' EVerybody;
What a heartwarming story!Waiting for part 2 Gees! All the EV action in
one place. You are Blessed! The damn vibration bugaboo is BACK! Sigh. For
what it's worth I had these issues in my old Ford Van thast ya might have
met at Joliet, my Towing Vehicle. I had really raggity runout at various
speeds. as it was a custom, shaft for the F250 tranny I had put in the van
years ago, had a longish one made. Guy thast built it for me made dire
predictions that it would have vibe issues. It did, got SO bad, like if I
wanted to go faster than 60 it shook like hell, THEN smoothed out at 70 and
on up.Like I WANT to go 70 and up in an olde Econoline?
Took it, the shaft back to the builder, he chucked in the lathe and found
it wasn't round, thought I may have torqued it a bit? Yeah, Right I said,
with a 300ci 6 cy. ICE HOW could I have bent the shaft? Sed anything was
possable, he diddled around with it, heating it with a torch on one side to
'Sweat" it streight. He improved it, added weights and re baslanced it. WOW!
Big improvement! I also notice if I have it wildly overloaded, like two or
more pallots of batteries it smooths out, but I don't go fast with all that
weight.
I thought you may have a driveshaft issue, too? But yours was probably
built for HD service? But ya never know, ya coulda shed a balance weight?IF
ya had any? But looks like ya blew up another Ford 9 incher? THAT could be
the vibration thing. Get thast fixed and you should live in the 11's happily
EVer after?
Racing is an expensive hobby! But the PIR Real electricity thing? Wow!
No more stinkin' ,noisy, gennies! Yes! Way to go PIR!-Now how more EV
friendly can ya get?Hoping we can get something like that at Mason Dixon
Dragway?Power of DC Fame.The owner liked the idea when I mentioned it. EV's
are getting more breaks nowadaze!
My two Watts worth;
Bob---- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <jw@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 10:02 AM
Subject: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)
> Hello to All,
>
> What a great night of electric drag racing Friday night was! No, White
Snip-a-Lot!
>
> >
>
Way to go John! We do need much more positive coverage of EVs. The general
public still doesn't understand the potential. With the new Lithiums coming
on they surely will. At least the other racers will find out :-) The Reality
Shows of course do not show reality. I did do one good show about seven
years ago. It was called "The New Edge" and the host was Ryan Seacrest. Some
here may have heard of him because of hosting "American Idol" and "American
Top 40". He rode with me in the "Maniac Mazda" as we blew the doors off a
Dodge Viper and the action was all caught on film including his uncontrolled
excitement from the cam inside the car. John, I sure hope your filming gets
out there in the public realm.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <jw@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 7:02 AM
Subject: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)
Hello to All,
What a great night of electric drag racing Friday night was! No, White
Zombie did not achieve the goal of busting into the 11s, but the night
was still a big one as far as advancing the notion that electrics are
nothing to laugh at anymore. Many of my EV friends came to take in the
excitement. Of course, the usual suspects were there...Marko Mongillo,
Rich Rudman down from way up north in Washington state, and Damon Henry
(also from Washington across the river) who once again arrived on his
NiCad powered electric motorcycle. In addition to these guys, we were
also accompanied by Steve Kiser and Duane Gergich who brought their
electric drag bike down from Washington. Many from the OEVA (Oregon
Electric Vehicle Association) gang came too...Greg, Gary, Jay and others
I’m sure I’ve forgotten, and many of my forklift wrench work buddies
came, too. Members of my family also showed up. I appreciate all the
support!
Man, those 11's are hard to get! White Zombie did the usual job of
stunning those unfamiliar with today's level of electric car
performance, and yes, I toasted a built El Camino muscle car, beat
another muscle car, beat a 12 second 4 wheel drive turboed Sube ricer,
and held my own (but lost) with two pro stock cars, but nope, no
11-anything...just low 12's. I guess having an electric street legal
sedan that 'only' runs 12.3 @ 100+ mph consistently (all 5 runs were
100+ mph, with the average at 103 mph) aint all that bad :-) Still,
being honest in my assessment, I failed to hit my goal. No excuses this
time. Absolutely perfect weather, good (not great) track conditions, a
fully charged and fully heated up battery pack, and ultra-fast recharge
turn-around times were all on hand setting the stage for 11's, but it
wasn't o be.
There are, however, two reasons that seem to be validation for why the
car seems to have hit another performance wall.
(1) As Tim reported to me on the 2nd pass the only other time we've been
able to make runs at PIR this year (we got rained out after the third
run back in early June), that old bugaboo vibration issue is back...BIG
TIME. The car accelerates like crazy, with a great 60 ft. time and a
strong 1/8th mile time, but at between approximately 90 - 100 mph the
vibration begins and ramps up so strong, it feels like the car is going
to shake apart. The acceleration simply ceases as the car's power
appears to be totally absorbed by the vibration. Then, after what seems
to be maybe two l-o-n-g seconds, suddenly the vibration vanishes, the
car becomes turbine smooth again, and it resumes a fairly decent pull as
the speed goes higher again where the car gains those extra 3-4 mph to
where the trap speed comes out at 103-104 mph. If the vibration wasn't
there and those two seconds of stalled acceleration were replaced with
mild continued high mph acceleration, it's pretty clear to me after
driving the car, that the average ET of 12.3 @ 103-104 mph would have
dropped into high 11's @ 107-108 mph. Oh well, that wasn't the case
Friday night :-(
I suspect we've cracked the Ford nine inch casting again :-( The
instantaneous torque from the Siamese 8 fed with 2000 amps off line is
huge, and the series-to-parallel shift also at 2000 amps around 80 mph
is also brutal. In fact, on the last run Friday night, the car broke
traction at the shift-over point bad enough that the rear end got loose
and the rear tires squealed and chirped with wisps of smoke coming off
both tires (video captured)....this, at near 80 mph! I also noticed lots
of extra 'noises' from the rear end that got worse as the night went
on...not good! The last rebuild of the rear end revealed that we had
been dealing with pinion bearing wobble due to a full split across the
casting of the massive rear end, and that this was the source of the
vibration issue. After another perfect condition 9 inch casting was
found, a pro Ford nine inch rebuilder installed a new Richmond Gear set,
all new bearings, etc., and the vibration was totally gone. Now, it's
back :-( Guess I'm gonna be pulling the rear end out soon to see what's up.
(2) After repeated hard runs and fast recharges, the pack got so hot
that touching the aluminum case nearly burned my hand. The last run of
the night vented the batteries and lifted the pop-on top covers on
several. No squirting liquid and no pooled electrolyte, but they did
vent and make a very light fog that lasted maybe 30 seconds on the
inside of the Lexan compartment cover. This model battery is rated at
925 amps for 5 seconds, and I'm pulling 1000 amps for an average of
double that amount of time, so the batteries are performing well above
their specs.
With the vibration halting top end acceleration and with very hot
stressed-out batteries, I made the decision after 5 strong runs to cut
my losses and stop racing for the night to save the pack. Four days
after the races, all the batteries measure good and the pack rests at
390V, the same it usually does at 75-80 degrees. If any damage was done,
it seems to be minimal, so I'm glad I didn't keep punishing the pack.
Conclusions...
(1) Until I can fix the problem and eliminate the vibration, I don't
think the car is going to hit the 11's...it simply robs too much power.
(2) Strong as they are, I'm close to extracting the max possible power
from the battery pack. According to the graphs Mark Farver made off
Zilla info, at the beginning of a run, each 12V battery falls to about
8.2V at 1000 amps giving about 246 kw (330 hp) of initial power. Near
the end of the 12 second run, each battery has fallen as low as 5.5V
with the pack making just 165 kw of power (221 hp).
I'm rethinking the current stack of 30, 26 ahr, 24 lb. Hawker
Aerobatteries. I remember back to 2000 when I ran a 378 lb. 336V pack of
the half-sized Hawker 16 EP models, 16 ahr 13.5 lb. little bricks of
power that could deliver 750 amps during low 13 second runs, over, and
over. At 750 amps each battery would sag to ~6.9V (going off analog
gauges in the car). A double string of 30 of these for 60 total
batteries would make a 360V pack that weighs about 90 lbs. more. This
pack would sag less than the current packs does at 1000 amps, while
cranking out a whopping 1500 battery amps! Assuming a conservative 6.5V
per battery of initial sag, the pack would kneel to 195V at 1500 amps
for 295 kw (395 hp) of power giving 65 more hp than the current pack of
26 ahr batteries do. It's possible that the overly beefy intercell
straps inside the smaller 16 ahr models contain heating under high loads
better than the larger 26 ahr units the car currently has. Back when we
were racing in the 90's, the earliest versions of the 16 ahr batteries
would fuse open their internal cell straps. After sending destroyed
batteries to Hawker engineers, they redesigned the batteries with
beefier straps...cool. Perhaps the strapping of the bigger 26 ahr models
aren't as proportionately beefy, and with 1000 amps passing through them
(250 amps more than when using their smaller batteries) the inter-cell
straps are a limiting factor...they probably get pretty hot inside the
battery. This would explain the rapid heat build-up and subsequent
venting. On the flip side, it's also possible that with the vibration
eliminated and thus the power robbing issue gone, the car might just
crack the 11's with the current pack. No decision has been made here,
I'm just blabbing my thoughts...
OK, enough post racing analysis...on with the fun parts.
The big show of the night came from Steve Kiser and Duane Gergich with
their electric drag bike. Formerly Father Time's 'Dragon Rose', at the
Sept. '04 Woodburn drags with Duane doing the driving, this gorgeous
156V bike set a NEDRA world record for the MT/D class when it ran an
impressive 12.497 @ 100.7 mph! Steve and Duane now own the bike and have
it in pristine condition these days, with lustrous cherry red paint and
the thing detailed to the max...it's beautiful to look at! They had it
on display at the June 24th SEVA Gasless on Greenwood car show, where I
brow beat them, shamed them, and downright taunted them into bring the
machine south to Portland to join me for Friday night electric drag racing.
I had written:
> As a bonus for EV racing fans, Duane Gergich and Steve Kiser will be
joining us with their Father Time-built outrageous drag bike
> that has run 12.4 @ 100 mph. I twisted their arms yesterday at the
SEVA Greenwood car show.
Well, came they did!
The bike's now nearly 5 year old Hawker batteries, 13 of the little 13
ahr models that weigh just 10.5 lbs. each, had sat un-charged and
un-loved for the past 1.5 years since the record was set...argghh! Yet,
after being charged, driven on, and charged a few times the batteries
shed their sulfation and flexed their electro-chemical muscles and made
some serious power! Can you say 12.5 @ 100 mph? Can you say that, twice?
Before these two great runs though, Duane had a tough time getting his
act together :-) His first run netted an embarrassing 63 mph at 14
seconds....wait...how do you only get 63 mph with a 14 second run?
Easy...you get confused and let off the throttle at the 1/8th mile
marker! Boy, we had Duane hanging his head in shame over this one, and a
certain Plasma Boy took advantage of the moment and really rubbed it in.
Duane took it in stride and laughed along with the rest of us (at
himself), then turned around and stuck it to everybody! After the track
announcer told everyone there was an electric motorcycle in the burnout
pit, Duane decided to shut up the snickers over a 63 mph motorcycle, and
with Steve out on track setting up the burnout perfectly with staging
help, he gave a dramatic go-ahead hand motion, signaling Duane to do the
most scorching bike burnout I've ever seen! It was awesome.
I had also written:
> I can hardly wait to see the crowd's reaction to their quick very red
electric bike with it's BIG electric motor clearly visible, and the fat
>drag slick and long wheelie bar extension making quite statement.
>
The crowd indeed, went nuts cheering and hooting. Then, after expending
a lot of power into the burnout, Duane made the Hawkers puke out even
more power and jammed the bike down the track running a 12.8 second
blast! Hawkers rock! Yeah, this wiped away all those snickers! After
that run, came the 12.5 second 100 mph runs back to back...very
impressive for a non-advanced 8 inch ADC motor, just 156V worth of 5
year old Hawkers, and a Raptor controller. Imagine the motor properly
advanced, 192V of brand new Hawkers, and a Zilla Z1K? Can you say 11's?
How 'bout 300+V of hi current LiIons, a Zilla, and the same motor
prepped by Jim Husted? Can you say 'Hello, Bill Dube?"
Much of the credit for the bike's strong showing has to go to Madman
Rudman, as he had charging the bike down, big time! After I had argued
with him about getting us all hooked into the AC mains at the track so I
could shut off the damn stink'n generator in the back of my service
truck, and after he found a maintenance shack where the power pigtail
box equipped with the Cam Lok connectors was stored, and after he made a
special run to a local home improvement type store to get more
electrical parts, he had us wired! Gone was the noise and stink,
replaced with silent and abundant AC power! Using my PFC50x, during
Zombie recharging, ~12 kw of power was rapidly sent into the hungry
pack, 29.8 amps @ 401V, and the turn-around time was about 7
minutes...every bit as good as I used to get with a dump charge pack!
Madman repeatedly charged the bike up to 80% in 3 minutes and it was
fully charged and ready to run again in 5 scant minutes...a 5 minute
turn-around! Of course, the mighty Hawkers simply took in the power,
dished it out, then took it in again...remember, they are nearly 5 years
old, and sat for 1.5 years uncharged and unused...incredible batteries!
Did I say, Hawkers rock?
Back to White Zombie...The night was bitter sweet, with the first run
one of the most exciting, for sure. Normally, the first run comes in at
around 13 flat, with the second run a high 12, then subsequent runs
getting quicker as the battery pack heats up. Friday started off much
better though. For the first attempt, White Zombie was lined up next to
a very loud V8 muscle car, a green Chevy El Camino with a built 350 cid
V8. This bad ass machine had fat drag slicks in back and its heavily
cammed V8 lumped and thumped at idle in true muscle car fashion. At the
burnout pits the Chevy did a ferocious burnout that had the crowd's
attention immediately...all the while I drove around the water pit and
waited for him to end his testosterone fueled display of power. I had
figured that with a wimpy first run going to be in the low 13s, why
bother to do a burnout? The El Camino driver was serving notice that the
little 'ol Datsun next to him was going to get blown away, and he was
jabbing the throttle making the car jump...the car acted much like a
bull does as he snorts and claws the dirt. The best part, is that this
whole showdown was captured by a professional camera crew that had come
down from Seattle to do a special on 'White Zombie vs the muscle cars'.
I had previously written:
> there was a reporter/camera crew covering the Greenwood EVent....the
reporter/camera crew are heading to Portland to film both >electrics
running against the gassers this Friday, and to hopefully capture White
Zombie cracking the 11s.
So, why were these guys so pumped about coming to the drags to get this
on tape? It goes back to the Seattle car show on June 24th. The
interview guy is a hoot, and goes by the nickname ‘Pixel’. Pixel had
talked with me about having seen both the ‘Sucking Amps’ show featuring
Rod Wilde, his crew, and ‘Gone Postal’, and the ‘Monster Garage episode
featuring the build crew that included Mad Man Rudman and Shawn Lawless.
He commented that for him it was disappointing that in both shows, the
electrics didn’t actually win their races and that cool as they were, in
the end they underperformed for this reason or that, and they got beat
by the gas cars. He then said to me, “So, you actually ‘win’ races
against the gassers?” I said, “Sure, I beat them all the time. I also
loose to them as well. There’s always faster cars. But in general, White
Zombie is very competitive with the cars it runs against, and it wins
more than loses the heads up matches it gets into.” Pixel then said,
“Cool, then the world needs to see this. There needs to be a show where
the electric beats the gas cars. Note....I'm not trying to diss any of
my EV buddies or their hard earned accomplishments here, these comments
are direct quotes from Pixel.
Back to the track....Frankly, I was a bit concerned that this first
battle might not turn out so great for the cameras, as the El Camino
'did' sound and look as if it could kick my Datsun's butt. I would later
hear that some of the younger dudes who knew my car had put their money
on the Zombie. We staged as the announcer told everyone that the little
white Datsun was an electric car. Then the tree's lights sequenced
down...yellow, yellow, yellow....FLOOR the
ACCELERATOR!!!!....Green.....Wheels lift, nose in the air, my neck
snapped back, and the race was on! The El Camino's V8 roared and shook
my guts, but the sound faded as he couldn't stay with the Zombie. The
run felt strong and the Zombie pulled hard, then the parallel up shift
happened accompanied by a brief rear end swing as the drag radials broke
loose then grabbed. I could still hear the El Camino at full boil, but I
could also see him in my rear view mirror :-) The best part for me, is
that this poor muscle head dude had to read the 'SUCK AMPS' plastered
across the Zombie's rear window all the way down the track as he was
getting whupped by a little 'ol tin can Datsun (as Rudman calls it) with
a bunch of batteries! The finish line reader boards said it all....El
Camino 13.091 @ 100.75 mph - White Zombie 12.524 @ 101.76 mph, all
captured by a professional film crew! Never, had White Zombie been
driven to the track to run a mid 12 out of the box...an incredible first
run for the night, and we were all convinced the car was poised to rip
into the 11s. Of course, it felt great knowing the camera crew had
already got what they came for....filming an electric car take on and
beat muscle cars.
To be continued....
See Ya.....John Wayland
>
--
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I was under the impression that it would be quite inefficient to keep the main
motor idling in order to keep the transmission pressure and PS pressure up high
enough to use....
-Matt
(Switching back to non-digest mode now, takes too long to get a message)
----- Original Message -----
>From "Roderick Wilde" <roderick@...>
Date Mon, 3 Jul 2006 10:34:08 -0700
To <ev@...>
Subject Re: DC Motor torque calculations
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matt, why do you think you need an external motor to drive the accessories?
Years ago I built a Ford Taurus with air conditioning and power steering all
driven off the auxiliary shaft. When you turned the key to the start
position a latching relay kept it on in idle position so that steering and
air would work. I used a cermet pot in line with the PB6 in order to have
very fine idle adjustment. It worked great!
Roderick
Roderick Wilde, President, EV Parts Inc.
Your Online EV Superstore
www.evparts.com
1-360-385-7082
Phone: 360-582-1270 Fax: 360-582-1272
PO Box 834, Carlsborg, WA 98324
108-B Business Park Loop, Sequim, WA 98382
Cor van de Water wrote:
> You can safely merge on a freeway with >any< vehicle that
> can reach a 60-ish speed.
I drove my ComutaVan on the freeway. Its top speed was barely 60 mph
with a fresh charge, and it took the better part of a minute to reach
it!
The trick was that I picked entrance ramps that sloped down to give me a
boost. I also picked times when the freeway traffic was either very busy
(very slow) or when hardly any cars were using it. As long as you're
driving the same speed as traffic, or people can easily get around
slower vehicles, it's not a problem.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
For those of you who may be interested here are the box office returns for
"Who Killed the Electric Car". These are tabulated for the week ending June
30th. Noting that it had only been out three days and noting the number of
theaters it has been shown at I think the results are quite impressive. It
is currently number 30. http://www.the-numbers.com/charts/thisweek.html
Roderick Wilde
--
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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.9/382 - Release Date: 7/4/2006
Why try to cool the entire interior of the vehicle? The only objects in
discomfort are humans. Cool the humans, make them comfortable. Here's a
commercial example,
http://www.fastraceproducts.com/page/fastraceproducts/CTGY/coolsuit
Simple and effective, pump cool water where it can pick up excess heat
from the body. It's an ice chest with a bilge pump and tubing pressing
against your skin. I've made a dozen of 'em for myself and friends, with
the heat exchanging tubing strapped to the car seat instead of a vest or
t-shirt. Parts cost about $75 for two seats.
I've driven from Fresno, CA to central Arizona in September in a
vintage VW ice bus. It wasn't cool enough to close the windows, but
much more comfortable than drinking constantly and sweating in 100+ heat
for 8 hours. It's great for short trips and even lawn chairs with a
portable power pack. Energy cost? Freeze a few 2 liter soda bottles
filled with potable water in the office freezer and at home. Bilge pump
pulls less than an amp from the car.
I'm not set up to make more than a few at a time, but I can pmail
details and sources on request. There's patents on some forms of this,
so it's easier if you make your own.
-Harry
Cor van de Water wrote:
> ALL cars allow idling, the ICE does it, so if you
> make the electric motor idle, it will work.
> Both with automatic and manual transmission.
> I did not say it is going to be efficient....
Don't get too hung up about efficiency if you have your EV motor idle.
The power consumption is lower than you might think; often low enough to
ignore.
My EV has an Advanced DC L91 6.7" series motor, 144vdc pack, and Curtis
1231C controller. The motor idles at 500 rpm in neutral with 0.5 amps of
pack current; about 75 watts. The motor itself is running on 3v at 20
amps.
A 50 amphour pack could idle the motor like this for 100 hours or over 4
days. Since the actual time spent not moving is a tiny fraction of this,
idling the motor has no real effect on range.
Now, this is with no accessory loads on the motor (alternator, air
conditioner compressor, power steering pump, automatic transmission
hydraulic pump, or whatever). Running any of them off the traction motor
will naturally increase the power usage while idling. However, running
them with a separate electric motor will *also* increase power
consumption, by about the same amount.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
mike phillips wrote:
>
> I hope this isn't such an elementary question it's beneath people to answer,
> but what happens to the performance, range, life, etc of an EV when operated
> in Phoenix, Arizona conditions? (temps from 110-120 fahrenheit 4 months
> out of every year)
120 deg.F is just about the maximum that batteries can stand. They work,
but their life is seriously reduced.
Batteries heat up as a consequence of charging and discharging. If your
ambient air temperature is 120 deg.F, the batteries will get even
hotter. Successful EVs like the GM EV1, Honda and Toyota hybrids all
have cooling systems to prevent their expensive batteries from dying
from the heat.
In a home-built EV, you have a couple options. You can park the car in
the shade, to protect it from at least some of the heat. You can put the
batteries in an insulated box, which is closed when temperatures are the
hottest, and opened at night and cooled with a fan so the batteries can
cool down. This way they sit at the average night-time temperature, not
the high daytime temps. Or, you can put in an active cooling system,
that uses the air conditioner, cold water, etc. to keep their
temperature down.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
Hi EVerybody, East Coast especially;
It's that time again! For the EAA New England Chapter meeting. So, after
Tony's issue with runaway dumptrucks it WON'T be at Tony's so I'll volunteer,
again. I thought what the hell? Lets do another Pic Nic cookout thing, like last
month? So the regular fare, open grill if ya wanna be creative? Dawgs,
Hamburglers, chips, other seasonal munchies. Come on over about noon, we'll go
from there, lottsa nice juicy outlets for youse guyz driving electric, 120/240
volts, all you can eat<g>! AND you Electrac- ers in the area too.Come on out!
Seeya
Bob
Be mindfull that Happiness is not based on possessions, power or
prestiege, but on relationships with people you love and respect.
More help for the rest of us from the racers. The internal interconnect
story is of great concern to the rest of us. Anything that helps battery
durability is a plus. The fast charging is how I think Hawkers are lasting
so long. In the real world we punish our batteries a little at a time over
years. I suspect it's the low power battery chargers we use. I suspect if
we concentrated on the charging side we'd improve efficiency & longevity.
Thanks John. As always you are a great story teller..........Lawrence
Rhodes........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <roderick@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 11:58 AM
Subject: Box Office Returns for WKTEC
> For those of you who may be interested here are the box office returns for
> "Who Killed the Electric Car". These are tabulated for the week ending
June
> 30th. Noting that it had only been out three days and noting the number of
> theaters it has been shown at I think the results are quite impressive. It
> is currently number 30. http://www.the-numbers.com/charts/thisweek.html
>
> Roderick Wilde
>
> Hi EVerybody;
WKtEC has made it in real time. Ads are showing up in the New YorkTimes,
along with "An Inconvenient Truth", gees! Right next to each other, no less!
> Maybe not the whole page like SUPEREMAN but a good start!
My two frames worth
Bob
> --
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>
Clearly there needs to be air conditioning for the passengers if outside
is 120F, this air conditioning can be used to cool the batteries also.
At these temps, the AC will consume a lot of power, and would be a
significant part of the vehicle design, so insulation, reflective
material, etc, will need to be used. Perhaps a small ICE can be used to
run the AC so the vehicle range is not reduced, which could be removed
during the colder months to eliminate the extra weight.
Jack
Lee Hart wrote:
> mike phillips wrote:
>
>>I hope this isn't such an elementary question it's beneath people to answer,
>> but what happens to the performance, range, life, etc of an EV when operated
>> in Phoenix, Arizona conditions? (temps from 110-120 fahrenheit 4 months
>> out of every year)
>
>
> 120 deg.F is just about the maximum that batteries can stand. They work,
> but their life is seriously reduced.
>
> Batteries heat up as a consequence of charging and discharging. If your
> ambient air temperature is 120 deg.F, the batteries will get even
> hotter. Successful EVs like the GM EV1, Honda and Toyota hybrids all
> have cooling systems to prevent their expensive batteries from dying
> from the heat.
>
> In a home-built EV, you have a couple options. You can park the car in
> the shade, to protect it from at least some of the heat. You can put the
> batteries in an insulated box, which is closed when temperatures are the
> hottest, and opened at night and cooled with a fan so the batteries can
> cool down. This way they sit at the average night-time temperature, not
> the high daytime temps. Or, you can put in an active cooling system,
> that uses the air conditioner, cold water, etc. to keep their
> temperature down.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
Michaela wrote:
> In comparing alternative battery chemistries: Do
those batteries suffer some kind of Peukert's effect
too?
According to Valence's discharge graph on
http://www.valence.com/ucharge.asp, going from 20A to
60A out of U1 modules shows ~50% reduction in capacity
for lead acid, vs. only ~10% for Valence. I believe
that this drop is mostly due to Peukert effect in the
lead acid batteries, and internal resistance in the
Valence batteries. But each effect may be present in
each type of battery, I don't know.
I do not know the details of the discharge
characteristics of other alternative chemistries, but
I believe some nickel-based batteries have both low
Peukert effect and low internal resistance.
CalCars.org's battery comparison table has internal
resistance information, but I don't see Peukert:
http://www.calcars.org/calcars-phev-batteries18feb06-rdg.pdf.
Chris
Lawrence-
I keep hearing how Hawkers last a long time.
Yet where's the evidence?
Wayland's Hawkers are new.
His last set lasted a year.
My 96v set in my 1921 Milburn were supposedly dead when I got them, but they
seemed good enough for the distances I needed, so I'm not rushing off to get new
batteries yet. Parenthetically, after leaving Wayland's pre-dragrace juice bar
with my Milburn on Friday, I made the big mistake of plugging the Hawkers in for
recharge...well, that was 6pm...I came back the next morning around 11am to find
the batteries sizzling drawing over 5amps at 119v----the batteries were quite
hot, hissing and the cases bulging.... Still, after rewatering, they still seem
to have some capacity at least. Longevity certainly has been compromised. Time
to at least put a timer on my 13-25amp Vicor charger setup...
I would like to see examples of Hawkers as a long lasting battery compared to
the alternatives. I like the batteries, but wouldn't spend that kind of money
in the face of the usual alternatives and the rebadged Hawkers at Batteries
Plus.
-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <primobassoon@...>
> More help for the rest of us from the racers. The internal interconnect
> story is of great concern to the rest of us. Anything that helps battery
> durability is a plus. The fast charging is how I think Hawkers are lasting
> so long. In the real world we punish our batteries a little at a time over
> years. I suspect it's the low power battery chargers we use. I suspect if
> we concentrated on the charging side we'd improve efficiency & longevity.
> Thanks John. As always you are a great story teller..........Lawrence
> Rhodes........
>
In a message dated 7/5/06 10:55:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
matwete@... writes:
<< Subj: Re: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)
Date: 7/5/06 10:55:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: matwete@...
Sender: owner-ev@...
Reply-to: ev@...
To: ev@...
Lawrence-
I keep hearing how Hawkers last a long time.
Yet where's the evidence?
Wayland's Hawkers are new.
His last set lasted a year.
My 96v set in my 1921 Milburn were supposedly dead when I got them, but they
seemed good enough for the distances I needed, so I'm not rushing off to get
new batteries yet. Parenthetically, after leaving Wayland's pre-dragrace
juice bar with my Milburn on Friday, I made the big mistake of plugging the
Hawkers in for recharge...well, that was 6pm...I came back the next morning
around
11am to find the batteries sizzling drawing over 5amps at 119v----the batteries
were quite hot, hissing and the cases bulging.... Still, after rewatering,
they still seem to have some capacity at least. Longevity certainly has been
compromised. Time to at least put a timer on my 13-25amp Vicor charger setup...
I would like to see examples of Hawkers as a long lasting battery compared
to the alternatives. I like the batteries, but wouldn't spend that kind of
money in the face of the usual alternatives and the rebadged Hawkers at
Batteries
Plus.
-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <primobassoon@...>
> More help for the rest of us from the racers. The internal interconnect
> story is of great concern to the rest of us. Anything that helps battery
> durability is a plus. The fast charging is how I think Hawkers are lasting
> so long. In the real world we punish our batteries a little at a time over
> years. I suspect it's the low power battery chargers we use. I suspect if
> we concentrated on the charging side we'd improve efficiency & longevity.
> Thanks John. As always you are a great story teller..........Lawrence
> Rhodes........
> >>
I regulary get near 400 cycles on a set of hawkers in my Current Eliminator
Dragster.Then I sell the used batteries to be used to start portable
welders.Also have sold them to motorcycle folks,they still work great as a SLI
battery
for years.I live and race in Phoenix all year long so my batteries start the
night at 110F very often.Each discharge/charge cycle gains about 3-4 F.Do not
overheat your hawkers and they will last a very long time. Dennis Berube
matwete@... wrote:
> Lawrence-
> I keep hearing how Hawkers last a long time.
> Yet where's the evidence?
Short answer: Unless you take care of them, they don't. However they
seem to handle certain types of neglect well.
One of the US_Electricar owners bought a car in NC which had new
batteries installed 3 years ago then it died. I worked with him, got it
running. He dropped his pack, replaced 5 batteries that were dead, put
Zener regs on all 50 batteries, and now has 35 mile range with no problems.
Myself, my car came to me dead after sitting in a hot Fla warehouse and
moved with a forklift. I tossed the main power switch, put in a new
accessory battery and it moved. Charged it and the batteries lasted for
a year.
My latest pack is coming up on 3 years old this fall. This spring I
opened it up, replaced 6 batteries that read 10 volts, installed a slug
of regs and it seems to be back to 25 mile range. Which isn't too bad;
has bout 6-7k miles on the pack.
So no, they are not perfect. But they seem to work better than a lot of
other AGMs out there.
Chris
There is another way to calculated the amount of ampere-hour that can be attain
from a battery.
Look at a battery chart on how much time in minutes you have at 75 amps.
In my case, I have 260 ah battery at the 20 hour rate. This means you can draw
out 260/20 or 13 ah per hour for 20 hours.
If I look at 75 amp rate which my driving is closer to, this becomes 145
minutes.
145 minutes / 60 = 2.41 hours
2.41 hr x 75 amps = 181 actual usable amp-hour
When I use about 45 ah, this shows up as about 75% remaining the Link-10.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Jones<mailto:chris_b_jones@...>
To: ev@...<mailto:ev@...>
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 11:48 AM
Subject: Re: Comparing batteries - was Re: Valence Technology Batteries
Michaela wrote:
> In comparing alternative battery chemistries: Do
those batteries suffer some kind of Peukert's effect
too?
According to Valence's discharge graph on
http://www.valence.com/ucharge.asp<http://www.valence.com/ucharge.asp>, going
from 20A to
60A out of U1 modules shows ~50% reduction in capacity
for lead acid, vs. only ~10% for Valence. I believe
that this drop is mostly due to Peukert effect in the
lead acid batteries, and internal resistance in the
Valence batteries. But each effect may be present in
each type of battery, I don't know.
I do not know the details of the discharge
characteristics of other alternative chemistries, but
I believe some nickel-based batteries have both low
Peukert effect and low internal resistance.
CalCars.org's battery comparison table has internal
resistance information, but I don't see Peukert:
http://www.calcars.org/calcars-phev-batteries18feb06-rdg.pdf<http://www.calcars.\
org/calcars-phev-batteries18feb06-rdg.pdf>.
Chris
The difference is in the time that the accessories do not need to run
and in the losses of the pulley/belt systems.
If each accessory has its own motor (think A/C) then it will only
consume power when you actually run the accessory.
If you run the A/C only 5% of the time this can be significant.
But compared to the power that the drivetrain needs, it usually
is a fraction, so it does not impact your range much.
Driving a few MPH faster does impact your range much more, so
you can always take an extra half minute for your trip and
reduce your speed by 5 MPH and have power to spare.
Stay charged!
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: CWater@... Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: cor_van_de_water@...
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 9:13 AM
To: ev@...
Subject: Re: DC Motor torque calculations
Cor van de Water wrote:
> ALL cars allow idling, the ICE does it, so if you
> make the electric motor idle, it will work.
> Both with automatic and manual transmission.
> I did not say it is going to be efficient....
Don't get too hung up about efficiency if you have your EV motor idle.
The power consumption is lower than you might think; often low enough to
ignore.
My EV has an Advanced DC L91 6.7" series motor, 144vdc pack, and Curtis
1231C controller. The motor idles at 500 rpm in neutral with 0.5 amps of
pack current; about 75 watts. The motor itself is running on 3v at 20
amps.
A 50 amphour pack could idle the motor like this for 100 hours or over 4
days. Since the actual time spent not moving is a tiny fraction of this,
idling the motor has no real effect on range.
Now, this is with no accessory loads on the motor (alternator, air
conditioner compressor, power steering pump, automatic transmission
hydraulic pump, or whatever). Running any of them off the traction motor
will naturally increase the power usage while idling. However, running
them with a separate electric motor will *also* increase power
consumption, by about the same amount.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
EV Digest 5621
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) battery box clearance
by Seth Rothenberg <seth@...>
2) Re: hot climate performance??
by Danny Miller <dannym@...>
3) Re: DC Motor torque calculations
by "Dave" <Wilkerbeast01@...>
4) NEDRA to attend RPM Show at Indy
by "Roderick Wilde" <roderick@...>
5) Re: Comparing batteries - was Re: Valence Technology Batteries
by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
6) RE: DC Motor torque calculations
by "Roger Stockton" <rstockton@...>
7) Re: battery box clearance
by Dave Cover <davecover@...>
8) Electravan emblem needed
by Rocky Lear <rockylear@...>
9) Re: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)
by "Mike Phillips" <mikep_95133@...>
10) Re: DC Motor torque calculations
by Jack Murray <jack@...>
11) Re: Mk3 Reg specs
by "Rich Rudman" <rmanzan@...>
12) Re: Comparing batteries
by "ProEV" <Promo@...>
13) Defending EVs - WKTEC
by Dave Muse <bugs@...>
14) Re: "DC Inverter" heat pump
by Danny Miller <dannym@...>
15) Re: battery box clearance
by "Roland Wiench" <ev_7@...>
16) Re: "More Electric Vehicles"
by "Death to All Spammers" <cowtown@...>
17) Re: battery box clearance
by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
18) Hosing down batteries
by Chet Fields <chetfields@...>
19) RE: DC Motor torque calculations
by "Roger Stockton" <rstockton@...>
20) Re: Hacked Old Mail Truck
by "Rich Rudman" <rmanzan@...>
21) re: hot climate performance??
by Jimmy <zetaomega2000@...>
22) NEDRA to attend RPM Show at Indy
by "Roderick Wilde" <roderick@...>
I'm planning the new battery box for my car,
probably using (for now) the existing one,
which is set into the floor of the trunk, and
just make a plastic cover. I understand that there
should be some space around the sides to allow for
a bit of expansion, but what about above the batteries?
I plan to have an exhaust fan, so I'm wondering
how much space I need above the batteries for
air flow. Also, would it help to have room for
airflow below or on the sides?
Also, I read on this list two things -
1. It's good to set the batteries in a bed of
Baking Soda (ok, I understand)
2. It's good to have a watertight battery box
with a drain, and wash the batteries.
(ok, I understand)
...and he asked, "But they can't both be right!?"
...and they answered: "You're right also!"
Thanks
Seth
Ripped from Wikipedia:
"At a 100% charge level, a typical Li-ion laptop battery that's full
most of the time at 25 degrees Celsius, will irreversibly lose
approximately 20% capacity per year. This capacity loss begins from the
time it was manufactured, and occurs even when the battery is unused.
Different storage temperatures produce different loss results: 6% loss
at 0 °C, 20% at 25 °C, and 35% at 40 °C. When stored at 40% charge
level, these figures are reduced to 2%, 4%, 15% at 0, 25 and 40 degrees
Celsius respectively."
But on the other hand warm batteries have more capacity than cold ones.
This is especially true of lead acid batteries, gelled or flooded.
Dany
David Roden wrote:
>On 5 Jul 2006 at 1:15, mike phillips wrote:
>
>
>
>>what happens to the performance, range, life, etc of an EV when operated
>> in Phoenix, Arizona conditions?
>>
>>
>
>Obviously cooling is an issue, for the motor and the controller. But for
>the typical commuter EV, the most annoying problem IMO is the hit in battery
>cycle life. High operating temperatures are quick death for nicad and NiMH
>batteries, and will significantly shorten the life of lead batteries. I
>don't know about the effect on Lithium batteries.
>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Murray" <jack@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2006 11:18 PM
Subject: Re: DC Motor torque calculations
Only a SHO
> taurus has manual trans, all the normal cars are automatics, which of
> course, a torque converter allows idling, but doesn't seem appropriate for
> electric motor, not to mention all the extra weight.
Early Taurus with 4 cylinder engines were available with 5 speed manual
transmissions
David C. Wilker Jr.
United States Air Force, Retired
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Michaela wrote:
> In comparing alternative battery chemistries: Do those batteries
> suffer some kind of Peukert's effect too?
Peukert's equation affects the amphour capacity of a battery. It says
that the higher the current, the lower the amphours. It applies
primarily to lead-acid batteries.
Ohm's law affects the voltage you get from a battery. It says that the
higher the discharge current, the lower the voltage (due to internal
resistance) -- but it does not affect the amphour capacity. It affects
all batteries (including lead-acid).
As a practical matter, what matters is how much *energy* you get out of
the battery; not just its voltage or amphours. So for every battery, you
have a graph of energy versus discharge current, and they all deliver
less energy as the discharge current is increased. This graph is the
combined effects of both Peukert's and Ohm's effects.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
Jack Murray wrote:
> > Only a SHO taurus has manual trans, all the normal cars
> > are automatics, which of course, a torque converter allows
> > idling, but doesn't seem appropriate for electric motor,
It isn't ideal, since an EV doesn't otherwise need to idle its motor,
but it does address the issue of driving your accessories in a tried and
proven way.
My only caution would be that if you do idle the traction motor,
*please* do not use a Curtis 'C' version controller! The 'C' versions
are also known as the "whiners" because at low throttle/duty cycle they
drop the switching frequency to a very audible 1.5kHz. If you use one
of these controllers and idle the motor, then whenever the key is on and
the car is still there will be an annoying high pitched whine emmanating
from under the hood. You will not hear the motor idling, but you and
everyone nearby will hear the Curtis whine until you apply more throttle
and get the vehicle moving.
> > not to mention all the extra weight.
What extra weight? Do you mean the weight of retaining the torque
convertor?
I think that if you compare the weight of the torque convertor to the
weight of individual electric motors (and controls!) and the associated
bracketry required to drive your accessories seperately you will find
that it is really quite an elegant solution. These individual accessory
motors will take a fair bit of space under the hood, and smallish HP
motors of decent quality (read efficiency) can be difficult to find.
You have mentioned power steering, and AC, and if you eliminate the
torque convertor you will need an electric pump for the tranny (without
a pump, the pressure takes a bit of time to build each time you try to
start moving and this results in a very unimpressive driving
experience). It may also result in accelerated wear and tear on the
tranny clutches as they slip until pressure builds, and if you stomp on
the throttle such that pressure builds too suddently, you can pop a seal
(o-ring) on a clutch piston, or possibly do more serious internal
damage.
If you are concerned with efficiency, you may want to look for a more
appropriate conversion candidate. The Taurus is heavy, and if all you
can get is an auto model (and the auto tranny in these was not
considered reliable even in ICE trim), then you are immediately looking
at a heavier and somewhat less efficient conversion unless you ditch the
tranny. Ditching the stock tranny on a FWD vehicle and replacing it
with something else raises the conversion challenge to a whole new
level. If you go with an AC drive from Victor @ MetricMind, you have
the option of using a matching fixed reduction transaxle instead of the
stock tranny, but otherwise I think your options are limited to swapping
the auto tranny for a compatible manual unit (far easier to start with a
manual tranny car).
Perhaps an Escort or Focus with 5-speed tranny would be a better
starting point?
Cheers,
Roger.
Seth
I'm building mine right now and am addressing these issues too. The way I'm
tackling it is by
building my battery boxes out of 1/4 inch HPDE which I will support with a metal
frame. I'll have
the metal frame painted, maybe sprayed with bed liner. I'm going to have about
an inch of air
space on the top. I'll have squirrel cage fans supplying air to this area. I
have provision for
airflow between the cells down to another airspace in the bottom of the battery
box. I'm going to
drill vent holes in the bottom for the outlet. This will allow the byproducts of
cell venting to
exit safely out the bottom. The battery boxes and everything in them should be
safe from
corrosion.
If I plan it right, the vents will provide passive venting while driving down
the road (thanks to
Venturi.) I should also be able to open the top and hose my cells down to clean
them off. I'm not
worrying about neutralizing the electrolyte, the occasional rinse will clean
things up. The HDPE
should protect any metal surfaces. Pictures to follow when I make progress.
Dave Cover
PS I was reading a DMV document that implied that battery boxes should have
provision to prevent
all that dangerous hydrogen from exploding when you flip on the light switch. I
belive you can use
the same technique they use for miners lamps and hot water heaters. Use a fine
mesh screen over
the outlets to block the flame from getting in your battery box.
--- Seth Rothenberg <seth@...> wrote:
>
> I'm planning the new battery box for my car,
> probably using (for now) the existing one,
> which is set into the floor of the trunk, and
> just make a plastic cover. I understand that there
> should be some space around the sides to allow for
> a bit of expansion, but what about above the batteries?
>
> I plan to have an exhaust fan, so I'm wondering
> how much space I need above the batteries for
> air flow. Also, would it help to have room for
> airflow below or on the sides?
>
> Also, I read on this list two things -
> 1. It's good to set the batteries in a bed of
> Baking Soda (ok, I understand)
> 2. It's good to have a watertight battery box
> with a drain, and wash the batteries.
> (ok, I understand)
>
> ...and he asked, "But they can't both be right!?"
> ...and they answered: "You're right also!"
>
>
> Thanks
> Seth
>
>
I need an Electravan emblem for the hood on my 81 Courier electric truck. Part
of the original is missing. Appears to be the same as the emblems on the fenders
which ar OK. the emblems I have are flat black one color but could be
weathered. Does anyone know how the original emblems were finished out , if at
all?
Rocky
In electric vehicles the data that Hawkers last is lacking. They are
tough in some ways. Current deliverey is great. But I think they are
not the best choice. Cor is trying some Chinese agm's. His success or
failure will determine my next lead acid purchase. They are vastly
cheaper to buy we just need to look into the longevity.
I own 104 Hawkers. $7k.
Also, Hawkers are not as well sealed as some batterys I've seen. The
good news is that they can be watered.
Mike
--- In ev-list-archive@yahoogroups.com, ev@... wrote:
>
> Lawrence-
> I keep hearing how Hawkers last a long time.
> Yet where's the evidence?
> Wayland's Hawkers are new.
> His last set lasted a year.
> My 96v set in my 1921 Milburn were supposedly dead when I got them,
but they seemed good enough for the distances I needed, so I'm not
rushing off to get new batteries yet. Parenthetically, after leaving
Wayland's pre-dragrace juice bar with my Milburn on Friday, I made the
big mistake of plugging the Hawkers in for recharge...well, that was
6pm...I came back the next morning around 11am to find the batteries
sizzling drawing over 5amps at 119v----the batteries were quite hot,
hissing and the cases bulging.... Still, after rewatering, they still
seem to have some capacity at least. Longevity certainly has been
compromised. Time to at least put a timer on my 13-25amp Vicor
charger setup...
>
>
> I would like to see examples of Hawkers as a long lasting battery
compared to the alternatives. I like the batteries, but wouldn't
spend that kind of money in the face of the usual alternatives and the
rebadged Hawkers at Batteries Plus.
>
> -Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <primobassoon@...>
>
> > More help for the rest of us from the racers. The internal
interconnect
> > story is of great concern to the rest of us. Anything that helps
battery
> > durability is a plus. The fast charging is how I think Hawkers are
lasting
> > so long. In the real world we punish our batteries a little at a
time over
> > years. I suspect it's the low power battery chargers we use. I
suspect if
> > we concentrated on the charging side we'd improve efficiency &
longevity.
> > Thanks John. As always you are a great story teller..........Lawrence
> > Rhodes........
> >
>
Hi Roger, yes, the weight of the converter and the trans. The stock
taurus trans IS a weak point, and my intention is to eliminate it. My
latest thought without looking at it yet is to modify the trans to keep
the differential portion of it. The idea would be to use a single
accessory motor that spins the existing belt, and can be sized and run
at a constant rpm to max its efficiency.
My question is how did Roderick do the conversion on his taurus, waiting
to hear about that, guess he's on vacation.
One point in doing a taurus is exactly because it is NOT a small car.
Best Regards,
Jack
Roger Stockton wrote:
> Jack Murray wrote:
>
>
>>>Only a SHO taurus has manual trans, all the normal cars
>>>are automatics, which of course, a torque converter allows
>>>idling, but doesn't seem appropriate for electric motor,
>>
>
> It isn't ideal, since an EV doesn't otherwise need to idle its motor,
> but it does address the issue of driving your accessories in a tried and
> proven way.
>
> My only caution would be that if you do idle the traction motor,
> *please* do not use a Curtis 'C' version controller! The 'C' versions
> are also known as the "whiners" because at low throttle/duty cycle they
> drop the switching frequency to a very audible 1.5kHz. If you use one
> of these controllers and idle the motor, then whenever the key is on and
> the car is still there will be an annoying high pitched whine emmanating
> from under the hood. You will not hear the motor idling, but you and
> everyone nearby will hear the Curtis whine until you apply more throttle
> and get the vehicle moving.
>
>
>>>not to mention all the extra weight.
>>
>
> What extra weight? Do you mean the weight of retaining the torque
> convertor?
>
> I think that if you compare the weight of the torque convertor to the
> weight of individual electric motors (and controls!) and the associated
> bracketry required to drive your accessories seperately you will find
> that it is really quite an elegant solution. These individual accessory
> motors will take a fair bit of space under the hood, and smallish HP
> motors of decent quality (read efficiency) can be difficult to find.
>
> You have mentioned power steering, and AC, and if you eliminate the
> torque convertor you will need an electric pump for the tranny (without
> a pump, the pressure takes a bit of time to build each time you try to
> start moving and this results in a very unimpressive driving
> experience). It may also result in accelerated wear and tear on the
> tranny clutches as they slip until pressure builds, and if you stomp on
> the throttle such that pressure builds too suddently, you can pop a seal
> (o-ring) on a clutch piston, or possibly do more serious internal
> damage.
>
> If you are concerned with efficiency, you may want to look for a more
> appropriate conversion candidate. The Taurus is heavy, and if all you
> can get is an auto model (and the auto tranny in these was not
> considered reliable even in ICE trim), then you are immediately looking
> at a heavier and somewhat less efficient conversion unless you ditch the
> tranny. Ditching the stock tranny on a FWD vehicle and replacing it
> with something else raises the conversion challenge to a whole new
> level. If you go with an AC drive from Victor @ MetricMind, you have
> the option of using a matching fixed reduction transaxle instead of the
> stock tranny, but otherwise I think your options are limited to swapping
> the auto tranny for a compatible manual unit (far easier to start with a
> manual tranny car).
>
> Perhaps an Escort or Focus with 5-speed tranny would be a better
> starting point?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
>
>
Yea.... What do you want to know??
I have 15 running in my Fiero in the drive way.. and I will be installing
15 on the PiPrius Kit's pack of used and abused Hawker Aero AB 26.
We have been keeping the specs kinda under raps while we are debugging the
Code and adding Features. They do a LOT of sweet things.
They have to act as our feature list states..or I can't ship them and still
look myself in the mirror!!
So I can tell you what you need to know and ask what else you would like.
But..until I have stack that works basicly flawlesslly... I am not
publishing the entire specs.
We have about 2 killer features that were not in the first list. More are
sure to follow.
There is a a page on my site devoted to MK3. maybe I need to update some
items. I have 2 clients waiting for product. I don't want any more on the
list until I have the units working as designed.
The Fiero is running at 4800 Baud.. not good enough for the Big time. The
PiPirus pack will run at 9600 as advertised. Let me get a week on them. Then
we do photo shoots and take orders.
Lordy....
17.5 Mv per tick... these are not CPU trim voltage regulators... Even 3
digits of accuracy is over kill. Calculated accuracy?? they seam to follow
my DVM within about 10 Mv. Good enough for this kind of work.
Then temps are about +- 2.5 Deg F. also good enough for this kind of work.
The temp sensor is a LM35. No temp comp control loops are being used at
this time. That still is in the future. We intend to do so.
Over voltage Pro.. 5.6 V Zener on the Micro pin... Fuse across the whole
mess. The fuse opens... and saves the Mk2B regs. This has happened twice...
and the Reg lived to tell about it. I have not had a pack open under a Mk3
yet. So I don't know. There was NO fire on the regs. The splattered lead
was from the battery opening!!! That was in Race mode...I lost....
The 0.5 ohms is part of the programable PWM linear region Fet bypass
circuit. No we don't drop the entire load across the 1/2 Ohmer....it is a
current sense across the FET that Does drop all the power.
We can program the max dissapation current. But we don't yet. It's still
resistor fixed... and it's set to %100 Pwm right now.
We don't even have the QC chart written yet.. I we don't know what is a good
reg and a bad reg in the precision and accuracy specs yet. They do what I
need them to, and they are close enough for me to believe the data, that I
check by hand.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Poulsen" <eric@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 2:17 PM
Subject: Mk3 Reg specs
> I know Mr. Farver had a generic answer to this question (from a design
> standpoint), but does anyone have detailed specs for the actual Mk3?
>
>
> Eric Poulsen wrote:
> > Rich,
> >
> > Can you provide more detailed specs WRT to the Mk3 regs?
> >
> > 1) How accurate are the voltage measurements? I see you're using the
> > Atmega88. Assuming you're running the chip @5V. Without some sort of
> > voltage subtracter circuit, scaling the 18V (max working V) to 5V
> > using a simple voltage divider, combined with the 10-bit resolution of
> > the onboard A/D, gives you 17.5 mV per LSB, not accounting for divider
> > inaccuracies, and reference voltage (assumedly vcc) fluctuations. I'm
> > sure the primary function (bypassing) doesn't need to be terribly
> > accurate, but for people who would use the Mk3s as a substitute for
> > checking each battery w/ a voltmeter, +/- 17.5 mV seems like quite a
> > bit. Do you have a calculated accuracy figure for voltage?
> >
> > 2) Same question, but as applied to temperature measurements, since
> > batt voltage varies w/temperature
> > 2b) Do set voltage thresholds take into account temperature differences?
> >
> > I asked about overvoltage protection, and you mentioned that the Mk2
> > regs blow a fuse (and catch on fire?), but they survive. I was hoping
> > you could answer this about the Mk3:
> >
> > 3) Is there any overvoltage protection on the Mk3 regs for an open
> > battery, other than a fuse (which is really an over-current
> > protection)? Have you tested the Mk3s in a severe overvoltage
> > condition (full pack voltage)?
> >
> > 4) Is that really a 0.5Ohm resistor in the Mk3 photo on your page?
> > Are you really bypassing 30Amps? =)
> >
> >
> >
> > Rich Rudman wrote:
> >> Listers...
> >> Thursday night we had a successful test of the proto type MK3
> >> Rudman regulators.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
Hi Michaela,
> What I always wanted to know:
>
> My T-125s have a 20hr rate of 240AH. Now: I know that, due to Peukert's
> law I am going to get just about 1/2 of that for driving.
>
> In comparing alternative battery chemistries: Do those batteries suffer
> some kind of Peukert's effect too?
With lithium polymers, the effect is pretty minor.
Kokam's were rated at 1C, so a 100 amp-hr cells give 100 amps for 60
minutes.
Looking over Kokam's literature, there is a graph at
http://www.kokamamerica.com/kokam_catalog.pdf page 14, second one down,
right hand side. This is the discharge graph for High Powered Large Cells
giving percent of capacity at different C rates.
In this graph (assuming a 100 amp-hr cell):
.5C (50 amps) gives you 100% of rated capacity.
1C (100 amps) gives you 95%.
2C (200 amps) gives you 92%.
8C (800 amps) gives you 84%.
In our testing with the old style 70 amp-hr cells Kokam cells, we got:
100% at 1C(70 amps)
82% at 10C(700 amps).
http://www.proev.com/P1Batt.htm
>Or - to rephrase the question: How many
> LiIon or Lipo Ah's would I have to get in order to have at least as much
> avaiable as my T-125s provide?
I would guess the 100 amp-hr cells would be about right but it is very
current and type of driving dependent.
> I understand that LiPos or LiIons would save much weight, but if I would
> shell out significant money, it should make an impact on range too.
Weight has a huge impact on range in real world driving where it is
necessary to accelerate mass and then waste the energy in braking.
Hope this helps.
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
With the arrival of the movie "Who Killed The Electric Car", I have been
discovering the topic of EVs raised on numerous discussion boards around
the net - and a lot of disinformation is being promulgated.
With a wider release of the film coming up, this would be a good time
for everyone here to look for discussions to participate in.
Dave Muse
That does sound promising. It's also got an impressive SEER value.
That's the same strategy as the "Mr Slim" A/C units that they keep
running late night commercials for. Mr Slim only has like a 10-13 SEER
though. Man, 16.6-17.6 is pretty good!
The inverter controls really sound promising for DC/DC conversion.
Still, it's worrying in that it may require a higher DC voltage than
your battery pack. Hard to say but 120VAC through simple rectification
produces 170VAC. Certainly they must have some sort of power factor
correction, in fact they may have designed it to change the DC voltage
of the rail depending upon load.
Danny
cowtown@... wrote:
>Perusing eBay, I found an item that brought up a few questions.
>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280003104238 is a heat pump
>that uses a "DC inverter", so it rectifies 120VAC, smooths its out to DC, then
>runs it through a 3-phase inverter. If you could jump to just DC input
>(especially a range of DC voltages), it might make a nice candidate for cooling
>and heating a conversion.
>
>
>
>
Hello Seth,
My battery box for my Trojan T-145's is 12 inches high in the inside. There is
a 1/2 inch space around the top lip of the battery, but below this lip, the
space is about 3/4 inch.
The top of my battery case is 2 inches from the inside of the cover, and the top
of the post terminals are about 1 inch from the cover.
The inside of the battery box, is coated with that epoxy coating for redoing
sinks and tubs that you can get from Home Depot.
When these batteries are tight together at the top lip, the battery sides are
about 1/2 inch apart.
In one corner close to the top of the box, I have a 2 inch hole cut in for a 2
inch 90 degree PVC plastic elbow, (the high pressure type for water). A 2 inch
PVC pipe is connected to this in goes down below the car. This is the input air
for the box.
I stuff this pipe, with a bulk air filter, which is a 3M type for a swamp
cooler.
The output pipe is install in the opposite corner, which is pipe to a 1/4 inch
thick acid proof flexible PVC pipe. This pipe is then connected to a all
plastic totally enclosed fan in about 100 cfm range.
The fan I used, is a square muffin fan, where it is easy to bolt on a 1/4 inch
plastic sheet, that has a 2 inch pipe stud epoxy glue to it. The PVC flex hose
then can slip over the fan inlet and outlets.
The fan is a 120 VAC type, which is control by a pressure switch, that detects
the pressure/vacuum in the lines. A 3-position toggle switch is used to turn on
the fan, and when fan is running, I than switch to the auto position, so the
vacuum switch is in line with the fan circuit.
If you loss this pressure or the fan turns off, the vacuum switch shuts down a
AC magnetic contactor, which provides power to the charger. Or you can have the
vacuum switch control a DC contactor between the charger and the batteries.
You can get these industrial vacuum switches, from a plumbing and heating supply
house which are normally use for detecting air flow in a heating system.
Do not use a thin plastic hose for ventilating you battery boxes. I had battery
fumes eat these type of hose right up.
Only exhaust the battery boxes, Do not install fans on the input side. This
prevents the battery fumes to push out of the boxes.
The exhaust fan outlet, also go below the car on the farthest opposite side and
points down and back like a exhaust pipe.
One advantage of a battery box exchange air system, is that it keeps the
batteries very clean. According to the Hydrocell company, (which you need 3
inches of space above the battery caps to the cover), that a lot of fresh air
exchange will work just as good as some Hydrocells.
I do set the enclose batteries on a 1/2 inch layer of baking soda. But there is
no drain. I do not wash my batteries down by flooding them down with water.
I use a Whitaker Battery Spray cleaner, that goes on clear and does not leave a
white mess like baking soda does.
Just wipe the batteries down with paper towels. I don't remember the last time
I done this. Today the batteries are still super clean.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Seth Rothenberg<mailto:seth@...>
To: ev@...<mailto:ev@...>
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 4:46 AM
Subject: battery box clearance
I'm planning the new battery box for my car,
probably using (for now) the existing one,
which is set into the floor of the trunk, and
just make a plastic cover. I understand that there
should be some space around the sides to allow for
a bit of expansion, but what about above the batteries?
I plan to have an exhaust fan, so I'm wondering
how much space I need above the batteries for
air flow. Also, would it help to have room for
airflow below or on the sides?
Also, I read on this list two things -
1. It's good to set the batteries in a bed of
Baking Soda (ok, I understand)
2. It's good to have a watertight battery box
with a drain, and wash the batteries.
(ok, I understand)
...and he asked, "But they can't both be right!?"
...and they answered: "You're right also!"
Thanks
Seth
> A friend of mine who is registered with the IEE (in the UK) sent me
> this this morning in an email. I haven't watched it all yet, but the
> tip here is to fast forward in the presentation to about 14 12
> minutes since the first bit of the broadcast seems to be the admin
> guy setting up the webcam!
>
> http://www.iet.tv/search/index.html?spres=4615
>
All I knew about Manchester was that they have a soccer team, but now
I know they have lecturers that rival sleeping pills! Seriously, I
watched the whole thing and even understood most of what he was
talking about - when will he have those "more electric airplanes" up
and running?
Seth Rothenberg wrote:
> I'm planning the new battery box for my car, probably using
> (for now) the existing one, which is set into the floor of the
> trunk, and just make a plastic cover. I understand that there
> should be some space around the sides to allow for a bit of
> expansion, but what about above the batteries?
Here are some things to consider for battery boxes:
1. Strength
Batteries are heavy. The box needs to be strong enough to safely support
them, even in case of a crash. A good rule of thumb is that the box
should hold the batteries even if the car was rolled, tipped upside
down, or suffered an impact of 4 Gs forward, and 2 Gs in any other
direction.
2. Corrosion resistance
Batteries all leak to some degree, regardless of whether they are
floodeds or sealed. The chemicals inside are highly corrosive. Wood and
bare steel are not appropriate -- they will be slowly destroyed. Paints
and coatings are unreliable -- they crack and chip. Thick coatings,
plastic liners, fiberglass, or corrosion-resistant metals like stainless
steel or aluminum are preferred.
3. Shock hazard
Most pack voltages are high enough to be lethal. The battery box needs
to seal them up well enough to prevent accidental contact by kids,
animals, or careless onlookers.
Leaking batteries also cause ground faults, i.e. paths for current to
flow to the vehicle's chassis. These can produce shock hazards and trip
GFCIs (Ground Fault Circuit Interrupters).
4. Temperature
Like people, batteries work best when kept at reasonable temperatures.
In some climates, this requires some kind of heating or cooling system.
It may be sufficient to insulate them with an inch or so of styrafoam
insulation, and depend on their high weight to act as a "flywheel" to
protect them from temperature extremes. Or, you may need a fan, heater,
or cooler if your climate has very hot or cold temperatures.
5. Ventilation
Batteries can produce hydrogen gas. Floodeds produce a lot, but sealed
batteries will also gas if overcharged. So, the battery box must not be
air tight; you must provide vents and sometimes even a fan to prevent
gas from being trapped inside.
6. Other
Batteries made with flat plates tend to swell as they age. If you snugly
pack new batteries in a battery box, you may find them swollen and
nearly impossible to remove when they need replacement. It's a good idea
to provide some method to force them out (a removable side to the bot, a
strap left under them to lift them out, etc.)
If you can prevent them from swelling with a very strong battery box,
this will help life somewhat. But be warned that the pressure can get
quite large.
> 1. It's good to set the batteries in a bed of Baking Soda
You can, but this seems extreme. I'd work harder to prevent the leaks in
the first place.
> 2. It's good to have a watertight battery box with a drain, and wash
> the batteries.
I've done this, too. But generally, I leave the drain hole open in the
bottom, because you may also get condensation, spills from watering, or
rain in there. You definitely don't want your battery box to become a
pool!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
I have read several references now to hosing down flooded batteries to clean
off the acid spray buildup. When this is done, do the interconnect cables need
to be removed? What stops the batteries from shorting out while this is done?
Or is this not a concern?
Chet
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Jack Murray wrote:
> The idea would be to use a single accessory motor that spins
> the existing belt, and can be sized and run at a constant rpm
> to max its efficiency.
So, you seem to be betting on being able to find a single motor in the
~5HP range that will run enough more efficiently than your traction
motor to make a difference. If we do a bit of back of the napkin
figuring, let's say the accessory load is about 5hp (3.7kW). At 85%
efficiency (about the best you would get even from a dedicated motor),
this is 4.4kW input from the battery. At 60% efficiency (about what
your traction motor might run at when idling with only the accessory
load), 6.2kW is required from the battery. If we round up the
difference to an even 2kW, then this means that every time you stop at a
light, etc. for about 2min and just idle the accessories you will
consume about 67Wh more from the battery using the traction motor. This
translates to about 15 stops (30min of idling!) to consume just 1kWh of
additional energy from the pack.
While driving, the traction motor efficiency will typically be nearer
its peak (about the same 85% as the best accessory motor), and the
difference becomes much less.
> The stock taurus trans IS a weak point, and my intention is to
> eliminate it. My latest thought without looking at it yet is
> to modify the trans to keep the differential portion of it.
The accessory motor and its mounting bracketry, etc. will likely [more
than] offset any weight savings associated with eliminating the torque
convertor and guts of the tranny.
You would likely need to modify the tranny such that it offers some
fixed reduction in addition to the reduction offered by the
differential. Assuming you use a DC traction motor, you are likely to
lose more efficiency by going to a single fixed reduction than you would
ever gain from running the accessories with a more efficient dedicated
motor. Since the power required to move the vehicle is significantly
greater than that required to spin the accessories, losing a few percent
in drivetrain efficiency can easily amount to a greater amount of power
being drawn from the pack than the difference between driving the
accessories from the traction motor vs a dedicated accessory motor.
You will also incur the additional cost of reversing contactors as
removing the guts of the tranny will cost you the mechanical reverse
gear.
If you are determined to do a Taurus and not use the auto tranny, it may
definitely be worth seriously considering the option of transplanting a
manual FWD tranny into it, if not one from another Taurus, perhaps one
from an Escort or Focus.
> One point in doing a taurus is exactly because it is NOT a
> small car.
But, it will effectively be one when you are done. You are starting
with a heavy vehicle that has limited payload capacity (unlike, say a
pickup), and when you are done, even if you have managed to retain the
back seat you will most likely be at or over the GVWR unless you either
use exotic batteries or have a very short range requirement. So, at the
end of it, you will have a largish appearing vehicle that can probably
seat a maximum of 2 people safely. (Insurance around here tends to be
void if you are caught with a vehicle operating over GVWR.)
Good luck,
Roger.
They wouldn't fit because:
You were stuck with using the same layout that the Van came with.
The design was to use a independant rear suspension, and the battery boxes
were laid out where any real drive train would be.
The point is.. When doing twin 500 Hp drive trains.. inventing them is a
really hard thing to do. Espeically with Cameras up your butt and a rather
limited budget.
If we really were hunting for sub 10 seconds like we were bragging about..
thought about what to use and where to get it would have been different.
Searching a wrecking yard for a drive train that was intended fro 100 to 150
Hp is a fools errand Rod... and you know it. Or you do now.
Where to fit two narrowed 9s.. or better.. should have taken first place...
not as after thought.
We did pretty good with what we had..
We all know how to go faster now don't we????
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: <Benteaches@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 2:08 PM
Subject: Re: Hacked Old Mail Truck
>
> In a message dated 6/30/2006 11:15:20 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
> roderick@... writes:
>
> "A pair of 9 inch rear ends and a pair of TH400 trannies and we would not
> have had any real drive train issues on Gp But.. it would have been a
> totally different EV..Not a hacked old Mail truck like the TV producers
> wanted."
>
> Look Rich, you know damned well that these items will not fit in the tiny
> room alloted in "GP".
>
>
> Why wouldn't a narrowed 9" have fit?
> I've seen them as narrow as appx. 24inches and as wide as 6 feet.
>
> Ben
>
The high heat has mixed results. I have used the 12v flooded marines and
they only lasted a couple years. Not even the trojan 8 volts do very well.
I have had Gel packs pop like popcorn when I tried to dump more than 200
amps when it is over 100F (was it the heat?). The best results for me has
been the tojan T125s, I have had packs that lasted over 6 years, I think
because they can endure the summers. The summer is the hardest on these
batts and it is because the battery temp is so high even before you start
to charge. It is easy to undercharge if you have a temp threshold. I
actually stop before a full charge and then let the pack cool down and do
a finish charge preferably at night when the temp gets down in the 80s.
For this reason flooded batteries are the easiest to take care of, this
goes for flooded NiCads too. Of course an advantage is if you let a low
pack set for about 15 min you will get out another 5 to 10%. I have a
pack of (25) T125s in our Solectria with 12,000 miles and they are holding
their own. Of course watering is critical and I think using the bypass
diodes saves on the pack when a lazy battery decides to get hot and turn
into a resistor. AGMs require very close monitoring - tempwise.
Back in the 90s in the Electric 500 races several teams tried the NiMHs,
one day during practice, we saw a good size mushroom cloud out on the
track. After the excitement, I talked to the driver (Billy Roe) and he
told me that he was driving fairly hard and he started to hear what he
thought was sheet metal scraping on the pavement - after a few seconds he
smelled smoke. He stopped the car as fast as possible, unbuckled, exited
and sprinted about 50 feet, when he turned around the car was completely
in flames, every battery contributed to the fire - thus the mushroom. I
think it was an APS car (1million$). Of course it was one of the first
NiMH performance cars, at the time they thought it was an internal arc in
one battery.
As far as controllers, the more air the better, even with water cooled -
eventually you are pumping the heat into the ambient air. We had a few
tricks to cool motors and controllers in endurance competitions.
Jimmy
http://dm3electrics.com/
> From: mike phillips <evtransformer@...>
> Subject: hot climate performance??
> To: ev@...
>
> I hope this isn't such an elementary question it's beneath people to
> answer,
> but what happens to the performance, range, life, etc of an EV when
> operated
> in Phoenix, Arizona conditions? (temps from 110-120 fahrenheit 4
> months
> out of every year)
>
> Thanks,
>
> MP
>
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:
CONTACT:
Roderick Wilde
Marketing Director
National Electric Drag Racing Association (NEDRA)
Phone: 360-385-7082
Fax: 360-582-1272
roderick@...
www.nedra.com
NEDRA to attend RPM Show at Indy.
Indianapolis, Indiana, August 30th through September 1st The National
Electric Drag Racing Association (NEDRA) has been invited to the first ever
RPM Trade Show http://www.aera.org/rpm/attend/index.html to be held at The
Indiana Convention Center sponsored by the Automotive Engine Rebuilders
Association (AERA). They will have a booth along with the well established
National Electric Hot Rod Association (NHRA) and the relatively new Diesel
Hot Rod Association (DHRA). Keynote Speakers will include Shirley Muldowney,
four-time World Champion Top Fuel Driver and Don Schumacher, owner of the
U.S. Army Top Fuel dragster. There will be a roundtable discussion including
John Force, Don Prudhomme, Hillary Will and Cory McClenathan. This event is
being held in conjunction with The Mac Tools US Nationals,
http://www.nhra.com/apcm/templates/preview.asp?articleid=2442&zoneid=90&navsourc\
e=18
In addition there will be an E85 ethanol performance competition. NEDRA is
looking forward to presenting world class electric drag racing to the
public. "Plasma Boy"John Wayland's famous Datsun drag car "White Zombie"
will be on display at the NEDRA booth.
ABOUT NEDRA - NEDRA, The National Electric Drag Racing Association is an
educational organization that exists to increase public awareness of
electric vehicle (EV) performance and to encourage through competition,
advances in electric vehicle technology. NEDRA achieves this by organizing
and sanctioning safe, silent and exciting electric vehicle drag racing
events.
-END-
--
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EV Digest 5622
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Comparing batteries - was Re: Valence Technology Batteries
by "Philippe Borges" <philippe.borges@...>
2) RE: frontal area
by Lock Hughes <lockhughes@...>
3) re: Electravan emblem needed
by Dave Muse <bugs@...>
4) Re: Hacked Old Mail Truck
by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
5) Re: Hosing down batteries
by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
6) Re: Hosing down batteries
by Christopher Zach <czach@...>
7) Re: Hacked Old Mail Truck
by "Roderick Wilde" <roderick@...>
8) Re: gang charger
by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
9) Re: DC Motor torque calculations
by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
10) Re: Air conditioning gains
by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
11) Re: Hosing down batteries
by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
12) RE: "DC Inverter" heat pump
by "Jody Dewey" <jodydewey@...>
13) RE: Comparing batteries - was Re: Valence Technology Batteries
by "Jody Dewey" <jodydewey@...>
14) Re: "DC Inverter" heat pump
by Martin Klingensmith <martin-distlists@...>
15) Re: Comparing batteries - was Re: Valence Technology Batteries
by Christopher Zach <czach@...>
16) Re: "DC Inverter" heat pump
by Danny Miller <dannym@...>
17) Re: DC Motor torque calculations
by Jack Murray <jack@...>
18) Re: DC Motor torque calculations
by "Death to All Spammers" <cowtown@...>
19) Re: "More Electric Vehicles"
by nikki <nikki@...>
20) SIP headers
by Mike Phillips <mikep_95133@...>
21) Re: Electravan emblem needed
by coinarian@...
22) Taurus EV
by Jack Murray <jack@...>
23) Re: Taurus EV
by David Dymaxion <david_dymaxion@...>
24) RE: DC Motor torque calculations
by "Roger Stockton" <rstockton@...>
25) RE: SIP headers
by Cor van de Water <CWater@...>
26) Ford 10.25" Rear End for a Drag Truck
by Mike Willmon <electrabishi@...>
27) Electric 4X4 Roadster on an S10 Chassis
by Mike Willmon <electrabishi@...>
28) "Who Killed the Electric Car" T-Shirts
by Chip Gribben <futurev@...>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <leeahart@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 9:51 PM
Subject: Re: Comparing batteries - was Re: Valence Technology Batteries
> >Michaela wrote:
> > In comparing alternative battery chemistries: Do those batteries
> > suffer some kind of Peukert's effect too?
> Lee wrote:
> Peukert's equation affects the amphour capacity of a battery. It says
> that the higher the current, the lower the amphours. It applies
> primarily to lead-acid batteries.
>
> Ohm's law affects the voltage you get from a battery. It says that the
> higher the discharge current, the lower the voltage (due to internal
> resistance) -- but it does not affect the amphour capacity. It affects
> all batteries (including lead-acid).
>
> As a practical matter, what matters is how much *energy* you get out of
> the battery; not just its voltage or amphours. So for every battery, you
> have a graph of energy versus discharge current, and they all deliver
> less energy as the discharge current is increased. This graph is the
> combined effects of both Peukert's and Ohm's effects.
I don't catch the difference result between peukert's effect and ohms' law
effect you speak about, for my understanding seems the same (out of the
name) :
Ah usable goes down as current goes up and then you have to let off the
throttle sooner.
We see this in all batteries, more or less according to their conception
choices but seems to me then there is a so called peukert effect on all
batteries.
Kokam at 10C give 82% C instead of 100% C, at C/5 they give >105% C, isn't
this peukert effect ?
Power batteries (kokam ProEV use are good exemple) are the best at such game
and keep their Ah better under hard discharge as hawker lead-acid, energy
batteries are not winner as they are not designed to play same game so what
is the difference with power batteries ?
They have very low R and tiny R variations during discharge,
Voltage sag but we have same Ah available = ohm's law ? is this possible ?
Votlage sag and we loose Ah = peukert effect ?
It's interesting though i'm looking for understanding click, i would like to
have more details please
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
Ha!
Mike
No need for "sorry"!
I can see you're right of course.
Had the thought and shot mouth off too fast.
Thank you, and it's me that's sorry <smile>
Lock
Toronto
--- Mike Willmon <electrabishi@...> wrote:
> Lock, this string thing won't quite work out. A circle with radius =
> 3.1831 has a circumference 20 and area 31.83. A square with
> sides = 5 also has perimeter 20 but area is only 25. A rectangle is
> even less efficient at containing space. If one side is 3
> and the other is 7 it has the same perimeter of 20 as the square and
> circle except the area is now only 21. Your string would
> have to keep the shape of the car profile, which is the same thing as
> doing the photo trick mentioned earlier. Sorry ;-)
>
> Mike,
> Anchorage, Ak.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-ev@...
> [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
> > Lock Hughes wrote
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2006 10:49 AM
> > How `bout wrapping the vehicle at it's fattest point with a piece
> of
> > line. Measure the length of the line, treat it as the circumference
> > of a circle and solve for area of circle with Phi?
> > Just 2cents. Metric here in Cda now, so getting hard to find yard
> > sticks <smile>
> > Lock
> > Toronto
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Hi Rocky -
Here's a logo from the back of my Electra Van, full size:
http://www.use4.com/ev-b.jpg
Most of the silver color is weathered away, but you can figure out how
it used to look.
Dave Muse
> I need an Electravan emblem for the hood on my 81 Courier electric truck. Part
of the original is missing. Appears to be the same as the emblems on the fenders
which ar OK. the emblems I have are flat black one color but could be
weathered. Does anyone know how the original emblems were finished out , if at
all?
>
> Rocky
Rich Rudman wrote:
> You were stuck with using the same layout that the Van came with...
> The point is... When doing twin 500 Hp drive trains, inventing them
> is a really hard thing to do... If we really were hunting for sub
> 10 seconds like we were bragging about... what to use and where to
> get it would have been different.
Ok, just for fun...
What would have happened if you started with something small and light
to begin with, like my old ComutaVan? It was an "old mail truck", too.
But it weighed under 1000 lbs without batteries. And already had a rigid
pipe space frame, solid front and rear axles, with tons of room for even
a huge Ford 9"er.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
Chet Fields wrote:
> I have read several references now to hosing down flooded batteries
> to clean off the acid spray buildup. When this is done, do the
> interconnect cables need to be removed? What stops the batteries
> from shorting out while this is done? Or is this not a concern?
Normal clean water isn't very conductive. On a modest voltage (72v)
pack, I couldn't even feel a tingle from holding the hose and standing
on wet ground or touching the car body while hosing mine off.
However, the only way I'd do this with a high voltage pack (anything
over 120v) is if I split the pack into several unconnected groups, each
below 48v or so.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
> However, the only way I'd do this with a high voltage pack (anything
> over 120v) is if I split the pack into several unconnected groups, each
> below 48v or so.
Hm. How safe/dangerous is 75 volts? I have rigged my Prizm using a 3
phase switch as the disconnect and it bisects the pack into two with one
set, and divides each side into two regions with the other. Thus the max
voltage I can be nailed with is 75.
Is this safe or still dangerous enough to get me killed?
Chris
What part of your anatomy do you blow out statements like: "If we really
were hunting for sub 10 seconds like we were bragging about.." No one, not
even you mentioned anything to anyone about sub 10 second ETs. We were
hopeful of sub 12s at best. The difference between sub 10s and sub 12s is
the same enormous difference there is between Goldie and The Maniac Mazda.
Also where are you getting your numbers for twin 500 hp drives. Let's see
the math. Furthermore, no one was searching a wrecking yard for any drive
train parts. Please watch the show. You might learn something. The wrecking
yard scene was a trip to search for suspension components, not drive
components. Can't you get anything right?
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <rmanzan@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 11:58 AM
Subject: Re: Hacked Old Mail Truck
> They wouldn't fit because:
> You were stuck with using the same layout that the Van came with.
> The design was to use a independant rear suspension, and the battery boxes
> were laid out where any real drive train would be.
>
> The point is.. When doing twin 500 Hp drive trains.. inventing them is a
> really hard thing to do. Espeically with Cameras up your butt and a rather
> limited budget.
> If we really were hunting for sub 10 seconds like we were bragging about..
> thought about what to use and where to get it would have been different.
> Searching a wrecking yard for a drive train that was intended fro 100 to
> 150
> Hp is a fools errand Rod... and you know it. Or you do now.
>
> Where to fit two narrowed 9s.. or better.. should have taken first
> place...
> not as after thought.
>
> We did pretty good with what we had..
>
> We all know how to go faster now don't we????
>
> Madman
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <Benteaches@...>
> To: <ev@...>
> Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 2:08 PM
> Subject: Re: Hacked Old Mail Truck
>
>
>>
>> In a message dated 6/30/2006 11:15:20 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
>> roderick@... writes:
>>
>> "A pair of 9 inch rear ends and a pair of TH400 trannies and we would
>> not
>> have had any real drive train issues on Gp But.. it would have been a
>> totally different EV..Not a hacked old Mail truck like the TV producers
>> wanted."
>>
>> Look Rich, you know damned well that these items will not fit in the
>> tiny
>> room alloted in "GP".
>>
>>
>> Why wouldn't a narrowed 9" have fit?
>> I've seen them as narrow as appx. 24inches and as wide as 6 feet.
>>
>> Ben
>>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.9/382 - Release Date: 7/4/2006
>
>
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.9/382 - Release Date: 7/4/2006
>> As a precaution you might want to put a diode in the positive lead
>> of each charger to the battery. That way current can't come back
>> from an adjacent battery.
Matthew Milliron wrote:
> I think this is a great idea. An inexpensive "just in case".
This may or may not help, depending on the design of the charger. If
each output is nothing but a transformer winding and a rectifier, then
the diode is already there, so an extra one is unnecessary. If there is
an electronic control circuit, adding a diode may prevent it from
sensing or regulating the battery voltag. In any case the diode drop
will cause a shift in the charging voltage. You just have to try it and
see what happens.
>> Have you calculated how much input current is going to be drawn
>> with 8 chargers all hooked up?
> I am told less than 20 amps, plus a 120 volt muffin fan for
> ventilation/cooling.
Again, you'll have to get one and measure it for yourself. I suspect
your main worry will not be to trip the breaker when you turn them all
on at once.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
leeahart_@_earthlink.net
mdrobnak@... wrote:
> does anyone know how to extrapolate the torque produced by a DC
> motor based upon the 72V rating? If so, could you share the
> equation with the list?
The answer is simple. Voltage has *no* effect on torque. DC motor torque
is almost completely determined by motor current. Voltage mainly contrls
the rpm, not torque.
For a PM motor, the approximate equation is very simple: Torque = K x
Current, where K is a constant for that particular motor.
For a series motor, the approximate equation is: Torque = K x Current^2
(current squared) for currents well under rated current. At rated
current, it's mmore like Torque = K x Current^1.5, and at currents many
times larger than rated current it approaches Torque = K x Current^1.
Again, K is a constant for that particular motor.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
leeahart_@_earthlink.net
>> If you're going to use a blower to force inside air temperature
>> to match outside temperature, then insulation becomes pointless.
David Dymaxion wrote:
> I'd differ on this. I had a truck with no A/C. The headliner fell
> off. Talk about hot! The metal roof reradiated the sun's heat,
> felt like you were in the sunlight directly. This is despite the
> windows down, vents going, and interior air close to exterior air
> temperature.
Agreed. I was referring to the normal case with the headliner and other
interior parts in place.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
leeahart_@_earthlink.net
Christopher Zach wrote:
>
> > However, the only way I'd do this with a high voltage pack (anything
> > over 120v) is if I split the pack into several unconnected groups, each
> > below 48v or so.
>
> Hm. How safe/dangerous is 75 volts? I have rigged my Prizm using a 3
> phase switch as the disconnect and it bisects the pack into two with one
> set, and divides each side into two regions with the other. Thus the max
> voltage I can be nailed with is 75.
>
> Is this safe or still dangerous enough to get me killed?
My ComutaVan had a 72v pack with half in the front box, and half in the
rear box. With a stream of water from my garden hose spraying the most
positive battery terminal in a box, and my hand on the negative terminal
in that box (a 36v difference), I couldn't even feel any current. So I
just sprayed down the batteries, letting the water, acid residue, and
whatever other crud there was drain out the bottom. I sprayed the water
with one hand, and scrubed the tops with a scrub brush in the other
hand.
I felt safe doing this, because the worst voltage I could reach was only
36v (+72v and -72v are at opposite ends of the car). But I certainly
wouldn't do this with a higher voltage pack, or anywhere you could get
more than about 48v of difference!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
The price on that thing is downrigh insane though. $321 plus 153 shipping?
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
Behalf Of cowtown@...
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 2:31 AM
To: EV Discussion List
Subject: "DC Inverter" heat pump
Perusing eBay, I found an item that brought up a few questions.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280003104238 is a heat
pump
that uses a "DC inverter", so it rectifies 120VAC, smooths its out to DC,
then
runs it through a 3-phase inverter. If you could jump to just DC input
(especially a range of DC voltages), it might make a nice candidate for
cooling
and heating a conversion.
Roland,
I am getting ready to purchase a link-10. Has anyone ever bought the
link20 for two battery packs? Where did you put your shunt? I am thinking
on the negative battery lead next to the battery.
Jody
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
Behalf Of Roland Wiench
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 2:43 PM
To: ev@...
Subject: Re: Comparing batteries - was Re: Valence Technology Batteries
There is another way to calculated the amount of ampere-hour that can be
attain from a battery.
Look at a battery chart on how much time in minutes you have at 75 amps.
In my case, I have 260 ah battery at the 20 hour rate. This means you can
draw out 260/20 or 13 ah per hour for 20 hours.
If I look at 75 amp rate which my driving is closer to, this becomes 145
minutes.
145 minutes / 60 = 2.41 hours
2.41 hr x 75 amps = 181 actual usable amp-hour
When I use about 45 ah, this shows up as about 75% remaining the Link-10.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Jones<mailto:chris_b_jones@...>
To: ev@...<mailto:ev@...>
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 11:48 AM
Subject: Re: Comparing batteries - was Re: Valence Technology Batteries
Michaela wrote:
> In comparing alternative battery chemistries: Do
those batteries suffer some kind of Peukert's effect
too?
According to Valence's discharge graph on
http://www.valence.com/ucharge.asp<http://www.valence.com/ucharge.asp>,
going from 20A to
60A out of U1 modules shows ~50% reduction in capacity
for lead acid, vs. only ~10% for Valence. I believe
that this drop is mostly due to Peukert effect in the
lead acid batteries, and internal resistance in the
Valence batteries. But each effect may be present in
each type of battery, I don't know.
I do not know the details of the discharge
characteristics of other alternative chemistries, but
I believe some nickel-based batteries have both low
Peukert effect and low internal resistance.
CalCars.org's battery comparison table has internal
resistance information, but I don't see Peukert:
http://www.calcars.org/calcars-phev-batteries18feb06-rdg.pdf<http://www.ca
lcars.org/calcars-phev-batteries18feb06-rdg.pdf>.
Chris
FWIW it says it uses an "Active filter" on the power side. This leads me
to believe it has active PFC, which it probably should for being a motor
load.
If this is the case, it probably runs on a universal input as well
though it only says 115VAC/60Hz. So who knows?
Regarding the Mr Slim units, I've heard they aren't all that reliable.
--
Martin K
Danny Miller wrote:
> That does sound promising. It's also got an impressive SEER value.
>
> That's the same strategy as the "Mr Slim" A/C units that they keep
> running late night commercials for. Mr Slim only has like a 10-13
> SEER though. Man, 16.6-17.6 is pretty good!
>
> The inverter controls really sound promising for DC/DC conversion.
> Still, it's worrying in that it may require a higher DC voltage than
> your battery pack. Hard to say but 120VAC through simple
> rectification produces 170VAC. Certainly they must have some sort of
> power factor correction, in fact they may have designed it to change
> the DC voltage of the rail depending upon load.
> Danny
>
Jody Dewey wrote:
> Roland,
>
> I am getting ready to purchase a link-10. Has anyone ever bought the
> link20 for two battery packs? Where did you put your shunt? I am thinking
> on the negative battery lead next to the battery.
I did for the Elec-trak. The link20 however has a problem in that it
does not support prescalers, so voltage is limited to <50 volts.
The shunt goes in the negative side of the battery, just like a link 10.
However it is two shunts with a common side.
Works fine enough on the Elec-trak.
Chris
But active PFC strategies generally wouldn't work with a DC input.
First off PFC has no meaning at all on a DC input.
PFC is a switching scheme that senses points on the waveform- and there
is only one voltage point on the input. It may burn up, may not even
turn on, or may work fine. There's no telling.
Now note PFC and doing a variable DC/DC conversion to provide an optimum
motor voltage for a given load and/or be insensitive to input voltage
variations are two different things. Now that conversion will almost
certainly have a output that controls the PFC filter.
Danny
Martin Klingensmith wrote:
>FWIW it says it uses an "Active filter" on the power side. This leads me
>to believe it has active PFC, which it probably should for being a motor
>load.
>If this is the case, it probably runs on a universal input as well
>though it only says 115VAC/60Hz. So who knows?
>Regarding the Mr Slim units, I've heard they aren't all that reliable.
>--
>Martin K
>
>
A seperate accessory motor can be selected with whatever rpm range it
wants and be geared appropriately, from 600rpm to 3600rpm. It can be
placed anywhere convenient, basically makes the accessories an
independent system from the traction setup. It also costs a lot less to
replace than the traction motor, why increase its wear to idle, even if
slight. The added weight is not significant compared to a transmission.
In short, my opinion is that it is more flexible, efficient, and
simpler, but not having done it yet, I might change my view.
The plan is to do 100's of Taurus conversions, seeking out used parts
from other cars would not be viable. Ultimately the question is what
electric car will average people buy, what features do they want.
Look at manual vs automatic trans cars. The vote on that is pretty
clear, even corvettes have more automatic trans sold.
Air Conditioning? Votes are in. Power windows? Power door locks?
Power seats? Tilt steering?
Jack
> Jack Murray wrote:
>
>
>>The idea would be to use a single accessory motor that spins
>>the existing belt, and can be sized and run at a constant rpm
>>to max its efficiency.
>
>
> So, you seem to be betting on being able to find a single motor in the
> ~5HP range that will run enough more efficiently than your traction
> motor to make a difference. If we do a bit of back of the napkin
> figuring, let's say the accessory load is about 5hp (3.7kW). At 85%
> efficiency (about the best you would get even from a dedicated motor),
> this is 4.4kW input from the battery. At 60% efficiency (about what
> your traction motor might run at when idling with only the accessory
> load), 6.2kW is required from the battery. If we round up the
> difference to an even 2kW, then this means that every time you stop at a
> light, etc. for about 2min and just idle the accessories you will
> consume about 67Wh more from the battery using the traction motor. This
> translates to about 15 stops (30min of idling!) to consume just 1kWh of
> additional energy from the pack.
>
> While driving, the traction motor efficiency will typically be nearer
> its peak (about the same 85% as the best accessory motor), and the
> difference becomes much less.
>
>
>>The stock taurus trans IS a weak point, and my intention is to
>>eliminate it. My latest thought without looking at it yet is
>>to modify the trans to keep the differential portion of it.
>
>
> The accessory motor and its mounting bracketry, etc. will likely [more
> than] offset any weight savings associated with eliminating the torque
> convertor and guts of the tranny.
>
> You would likely need to modify the tranny such that it offers some
> fixed reduction in addition to the reduction offered by the
> differential. Assuming you use a DC traction motor, you are likely to
> lose more efficiency by going to a single fixed reduction than you would
> ever gain from running the accessories with a more efficient dedicated
> motor. Since the power required to move the vehicle is significantly
> greater than that required to spin the accessories, losing a few percent
> in drivetrain efficiency can easily amount to a greater amount of power
> being drawn from the pack than the difference between driving the
> accessories from the traction motor vs a dedicated accessory motor.
>
> You will also incur the additional cost of reversing contactors as
> removing the guts of the tranny will cost you the mechanical reverse
> gear.
>
> If you are determined to do a Taurus and not use the auto tranny, it may
> definitely be worth seriously considering the option of transplanting a
> manual FWD tranny into it, if not one from another Taurus, perhaps one
> from an Escort or Focus.
>
>
>>One point in doing a taurus is exactly because it is NOT a
>>small car.
>
>
> But, it will effectively be one when you are done. You are starting
> with a heavy vehicle that has limited payload capacity (unlike, say a
> pickup), and when you are done, even if you have managed to retain the
> back seat you will most likely be at or over the GVWR unless you either
> use exotic batteries or have a very short range requirement. So, at the
> end of it, you will have a largish appearing vehicle that can probably
> seat a maximum of 2 people safely. (Insurance around here tends to be
> void if you are caught with a vehicle operating over GVWR.)
>
> Good luck,
>
> Roger.
>
>
> The plan is to do 100's of Taurus conversions, seeking out used parts
> from other cars would not be viable. Ultimately the question is what
> electric car will average people buy, what features do they want.
> Look at manual vs automatic trans cars. The vote on that is pretty
> clear, even corvettes have more automatic trans sold.
> Air Conditioning? Votes are in. Power windows? Power door locks?
> Power seats? Tilt steering?
>
> Jack
Is this plan to do 100's of Taurus conversions based on an actual
business plan? You'd need financial resources to take on that
many...or even 10 of these!
Do you have some emotional or logical reason to choose the Taurus?
While there are plenty of conversions in this size range, current
professional converters tend to choose smaller cars (or small pickup
trucks for their higher GVWR). I'd never want something this large in
frontal area, and many others find its styling boring -- the latest
Jaguar sedan looks like a Taurus with a change in grill and hood, so
Ford blandness seems to be contageous.
;) After having seen it now I have to agree.
Still, at least if in the future we all do conferences like this we
can fall asleep without being seen ;)
Nikki
On 5 Jul 2006, at 22:39, Death to All Spammers wrote:
>> A friend of mine who is registered with the IEE (in the UK) sent me
>> this this morning in an email. I haven't watched it all yet, but the
>> tip here is to fast forward in the presentation to about 14 12
>> minutes since the first bit of the broadcast seems to be the admin
>> guy setting up the webcam!
>>
>> http://www.iet.tv/search/index.html?spres=4615
>>
>
> All I knew about Manchester was that they have a soccer team, but now
> I know they have lecturers that rival sleeping pills! Seriously, I
> watched the whole thing and even understood most of what he was
> talking about - when will he have those "more electric airplanes" up
> and running?
>
>
>
>
I need these connectors/sockets (SIP) for the boards I'm working on.
They have a tiny 'MX' on each one. I cannot for the life of me fine
them on the web. Help?
Here's a pic.
http://www.rotordesign.com/s10/sipconn.jpg
Mike
Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!
www.RotorDesign.com
Quoting Rocky Lear <rockylear@...>:
> I need an Electravan emblem for the hood on my 81 Courier electric truck.
> Part of the original is missing. Appears to be the same as the emblems on the
> fenders which ar OK. the emblems I have are flat black one color but could
> be weathered. Does anyone know how the original emblems were finished out ,
> if at all?
>
> Rocky
>
Dont know about the original emblems or if this will help but Mike C. from the
tradin post sells a terrific Electric emblem so cheap its almost embarassing.
They look totally OEM and are self adhesive. David C.
-------------------------------------------------
FastQ Communications
Providing Innovative Internet Solutions Since 1993
Taurus is basically unchanged from '86 to present, 20 years of cars to
pick from. Prone to engine and trans failures. A big trunk. Boring
normal car with lots of standard features. Styling is always
subjective, given Taurus is one of the most popular cars in the USA, a
lot of normal people must like them.
Hey, they run them in Nascar, that frontal area can't be that big an
issue.. ;)
An alternative is the New VW Beetle, but not too many available.
If you've got another idea, put it forward..
Best Regards,
Jack
Death to All Spammers wrote:
>>The plan is to do 100's of Taurus conversions, seeking out used parts
>>from other cars would not be viable. Ultimately the question is what
>>electric car will average people buy, what features do they want.
>>Look at manual vs automatic trans cars. The vote on that is pretty
>>clear, even corvettes have more automatic trans sold.
>>Air Conditioning? Votes are in. Power windows? Power door locks?
>>Power seats? Tilt steering?
>>
>>Jack
>
>
> Is this plan to do 100's of Taurus conversions based on an actual
> business plan? You'd need financial resources to take on that
> many...or even 10 of these!
>
> Do you have some emotional or logical reason to choose the Taurus?
> While there are plenty of conversions in this size range, current
> professional converters tend to choose smaller cars (or small pickup
> trucks for their higher GVWR). I'd never want something this large in
> frontal area, and many others find its styling boring -- the latest
> Jaguar sedan looks like a Taurus with a change in grill and hood, so
> Ford blandness seems to be contageous.
>
>
>
>
Something to watch out for is the brakes are marginal on the Taurus
-- they are easily overheated. Putting on bigger brakes from a later
model, or ducting air to them, or doing regen are ideas to help.
Taxi companies like to use large cars. You could look at which cars
are most popular as taxis (Crown Vic? Daimler-Chrysler minivan?).
The Mustang would have the benefit of being an enthusiast car -- that
means lots of lightweight racing parts are available.
I initially wanted to convert a big car, but when I did the math I
realized it meant more money and a longer time to recharge.
--- Jack Murray <jack@...> wrote:
> Taurus is basically unchanged from '86 to present, 20 years of cars
> to
> pick from. Prone to engine and trans failures. A big trunk.
> Boring
> normal car with lots of standard features. Styling is always
> subjective, given Taurus is one of the most popular cars in the
> USA, a
> lot of normal people must like them.
> Hey, they run them in Nascar, that frontal area can't be that big
> an
> issue.. ;)
>
> An alternative is the New VW Beetle, but not too many available.
>
> If you've got another idea, put it forward..
> >>The plan is to do 100's of Taurus conversions, seeking out used
> parts
> >>from other cars would not be viable. Ultimately the question is
> what
> >>electric car will average people buy, what features do they want.
> >>Look at manual vs automatic trans cars. The vote on that is
> pretty
> >>clear, even corvettes have more automatic trans sold.
> >>Air Conditioning? Votes are in. Power windows? Power door
> locks?
> >>Power seats? Tilt steering?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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Jack Murray wrote:
> A seperate accessory motor can be selected with whatever rpm range it
> wants and be geared appropriately, from 600rpm to 3600rpm. It can be
> placed anywhere convenient, basically makes the accessories an
> independent system from the traction setup.
This is true. However, it also makes that system a fair bit larger.
Most conversions don't have any of these accessories yet still end up
with every available inch of space under the hood crammed with batteries
etc., despite also losing much of their trunk floor and/or back seat to
batteries. I suspect you will find that you may not have the luxury of
making the accessories an independent system in this way due to space
limitations.
> It also costs a lot less to replace than the traction
> motor, why increase its wear to idle, even if slight.
The traction motor does not wear out; its brushes do (typically after
1000's of hours of service), and its bearings will eventually wear out.
The cost to renew both of these is much less than the cost of a 3-5HP
motor to run the accessories.
> The added weight is not significant compared to a
> transmission.
But, you are not eliminating the transmission, you are retaining the
differential portion and the housing; you will likely have to retain
some fixed reduction ratio in the form of gears between the motor and
differential, but even if you don't, the entire guts of the automatic
tranny (clutch baskets and planetary gears) weighs about 25lbs. It will
be challenging to find a suitable accessory motor that weighs less.
> The plan is to do 100's of Taurus conversions, seeking out used parts
> from other cars would not be viable. Ultimately the question is what
> electric car will average people buy, what features do they want.
Feature #1 is sufficient range to be useful and for them to feel
comfortable. While a 30mi range may be enough to be useful for many,
experience has shown that the average person is not comfortable with a
range of less than 100mi. Starting with a heavy base vehicle, loading
it with accessories (consuming valuable battery space and consuming
additional energy), and then compounding the issue by hobbling yourself
with a fixed reduction drivetrain (reducing the real-world efficiency of
a DC drivetrain that must cope with city driving/hills as well as
freeway traffic) is going to make it all but impossible to achieve much
better than 30mi range.
Feature #2 is performance (i.e. acceleration). Once again all that
weight is working against you. So is the fixed reduction drivetrain.
Even selling 100s of EVs constitutes an infinitesimal fraction of the
cars sold annually in the US; it might be unwise to try to cater to
every whim of the average spoiled car buyer. Since you are only looking
to capture a tiny fraction of the market you may be able to focus on
appealing to a more select group.
Selling 100s of EVs would represent a larger success than *any* other
conversion company to date that I am aware of. I don't think that even
Solectria sold 100s of EVs.
I think that you will have great challenges trying to convert a Taurus
to have sufficient performance to be acceptable to potential buyers at a
cost they are willing to pay, with or without the accessories. The
bigger challenge may be locating 100s of people willing to shell out at
least $10k more for an old Taurus just because it has been converted to
electric.
If I were looking at building an EV conversion for the masses, I would
either use a DC traction system with an automatic transmission,
retaining the torque converter, or I'd use an AC traction system with a
single fixed reduction.
With a DC traction system, you must provide a means of protecting the
motor from being damaged due to over-speed if you use a manual
transmission. This is achievable with a rev limiter. You must also
protect the DC motor from damage due to over-current while stalled
(driver holding position on a hill by use of the throttle rather than
the brake). This is automatically provided by the auto tranny's torque
converter, and the auto tranny provides the no shifting benefit you
identified as desirable.
Food for thought, perhaps. Good luck either way! ;^>
Cheers,
Roger.
Mike,
It is Molex.
Type: C-grid/SL, version G with positive latch
http://www.ttieurope.com/microsites/molex/products_items/wire_to_board/c-gri
d/70066g.cfm
Overview of all the C-grid versions and catalog page ref:
http://www.ttieurope.com/microsites/molex/products_items/wire_to_board/c-gri
d/literature.pdf
Success,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: CWater@... Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: cor_van_de_water@...
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
Behalf Of Mike Phillips
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 10:34 PM
To: ev@...
Subject: SIP headers
I need these connectors/sockets (SIP) for the boards I'm working on.
They have a tiny 'MX' on each one. I cannot for the life of me fine
them on the web. Help?
Here's a pic.
http://www.rotordesign.com/s10/sipconn.jpg
Mike
Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!
www.RotorDesign.com
I have a Ford 10.25" Rear End with 4.10's sitting in my back yard if anyone
wants it. Its pretty heavy so I don't know if anyone
is using them for racing use. This is the rear end off my '96 F350. It has a
spun inner bearing and it was cheaper for me to
swap in a used rear end than have the bearing race built back up. It only has
80K miles on it. Shipping from Alaska might be a
pretty penny unless you could get a good deal on a backhaul on the barge or
truck. Anyway, just wondered if its worth the
trouble. Its free to a good home. You-haul.
Mike
Anchorage, Ak.
Has anyone looked at or done any of these kit conversions on a small pickup
chassis? http://www.rodster.com/owners/4x4.htm An
S10 pickup seems like it would be a fairly sturdy chassis for an electric
conversion anyway. I wonder if the fiberglass body
would cut some of the overall wheight of the body/chassis combo and leave more
room and weight capacity for batteries and
electrics. Can anyone whose done an S10 comment on the chassis integrity and
ease to work with for mounting batteries? Too bad I
went with the Mitsu. Maybe my next will be some sort of stylish kit built on a
small pickup platform. Don't some rangers already
come with Ford 9" rear ends?
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
Hey everyone!
Here is a design for some Who Killed the Electric Car? t-shirts.
http://www.evadc.org/images/wktectshirtev1.jpg
. . . and another design at . . .
http://www.evadc.org/images/wktectshirtdesign.jpg
I'll probably do the first design.
If there is enough interest I may be able to print some up.
I need at least 12 orders. Cost would be $25.00 including shipping.
After my expenses are paid, the rest will go to an EV cause. It won't
be much but will be something.
Sizes available would be M, L, XL and 2XXL
Before embarking on this project I spoke to the people handling the
publicity for the movie. Apparently their work ended the day the
movie premiered on June 28 so we are on our own as far as further
advertising like t-shirts.
Chip
Chip Gribben
Electric Vehicle Association of Washington DC Webmaster
http://www.evadc.org
National Electric Drag Racing Association Webmaster
http://www.nedra.com
EV Digest 5623
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: DC Motor torque calculations
by "Bill Dennis" <wjdennis@...>
2) Re: Electric 4X4 Roadster on an S10 Chassis
by Steve Powers <powers_ev@...>
3) K&W BC-20 problems
by "Brendan D. Miller" <malevoleev@...>
4) Re: Taurus EV
by Steve Powers <powers_ev@...>
5) Re: SIP headers
by Rod Hower <rodhower@...>
6) Re: SIP headers
by Rod Hower <rodhower@...>
7) Batteries / Balancing (4 E Cobra)
by "Michael T Kadie" <kd@...>
8) Re: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)
by "BillDube@..." <billdube@...>
9) Re: DC Motor torque calculations
by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
10) Re: Comparing batteries - was Re: Valence Technology Batteries
by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
11) Re: SIP headers
by "Mike Phillips" <mikep_95133@...>
12) Re: DC Motor torque calculations, choosing accessory motor
by Dave Cover <davecover@...>
13) Re: "DC Inverter" heat pump
by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
14) Re: Hacked Old Mail Truck
by "Roderick Wilde" <roderick@...>
15) Re: DC Motor torque calculations
by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
16) Re: K&W BC-20 problems
by Mbachandz@...
17) Re: DC Motor torque calculations
by mdrobnak@...
18) Re: 'DC Inverter' heat pump
by "Martin K" <martin-distlists@...>
19) Re: Valence Technology Batteries
by "ProEV" <Promo@...>
20) Re: Top Gear clip of Hy-Wire
by "Mike Ellis" <michael.ellis@...>
21) Re: Top Gear clip of Hy-Wire
by "Mike Ellis" <michael.ellis@...>
22) Re: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)
by "Mike Ellis" <michael.ellis@...>
Lee Hart wrote:
> Again, K is a constant for that particular motor.
By "that particular motor" do you mean that model, or the specific unit that
you bought. If you mean model, where does one find the K info for ADC
motors? I wasn't able to locate it on the ADC web site. If you mean that
particular unit, what tests does one need to run to determine it?
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
An easier way to cut weight is just buy the fiberglass body that fits that
chasis with the same style as the chasis was originally. You can get entire
fiberglass bodies for several makes / models of cars.
http://www.usbodysource.com/
Some are just panels, but depending on the vehicle, you may be able to get a
whole body, bed only, front end, ...
One idea is an old Jeep 4X4. Put on a fiberglass body. And, run it as a
hybrid with ICE on one axle and an electric motor on the other. But, unless you
gear the thing, you are going to need a very big electric motor or dual motors.
I think two 7" motors or one 11" motor would do the trick for a light vehicle
like that with direct drive. The 7" would be less expensice, but more
complicated to mount / fit in place. I like the Jeep becuse it is a heavy duty
vehicle to begin with and parts are available.
There are probably other sources as well for the fiberglass parts.
Steve
Mike Willmon <electrabishi@...> wrote:
Has anyone looked at or done any of these kit conversions on a small pickup
chassis? http://www.rodster.com/owners/4x4.htm An
S10 pickup seems like it would be a fairly sturdy chassis for an electric
conversion anyway. I wonder if the fiberglass body
would cut some of the overall wheight of the body/chassis combo and leave more
room and weight capacity for batteries and
electrics. Can anyone whose done an S10 comment on the chassis integrity and
ease to work with for mounting batteries? Too bad I
went with the Mitsu. Maybe my next will be some sort of stylish kit built on a
small pickup platform. Don't some rangers already
come with Ford 9" rear ends?
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
---------------------------------
Sneak preview the all-new Yahoo.com. It's not radically different. Just
radically better.
I'm having issues with the K&W BC-20 that came with my truck. At first it
would only charge at a few amps without shutting down, and now it just won't
charge at all - though all of the other AC parts seem to be in proper
running order. The current pot (or perhaps my multimeter) is about 20% out
of spec, but I doubt that's the issue. Everything else looks exceptionally
clean given its age, with the exception of one wire end that needed to be
re-crimped. Unfortunately that didn't help. The GFCI works fine and there
is no evidence of blown fuses, missing smoke, or any of the other usual
suspects. I didn't check every resistor or anything, but in general, things
look fine. The charger was mounted in the cab, so it's always been out of
the rain and away from battery acid.
Anyhow, unless I've missed something, I think I've exhausted my technical
savvy, so I need to send it elsewhere. Does anyone know if K&W is still in
business? I searched the posts and found several people saying that they
sent their units back and had them fixed in the past. But I can't seem to
find a phone number or any signs of contemporary existence. Or perhaps
there's someone on the list with a little more experience with this charger
who would be willing to fix it for appropriate compensation. I welcome any
contact info, personal experience, etc.
Thanks,
Brendan Miller
malevoleev@...
I would choose a Toyota Corolla, 1993 -> ? They are lighter, I think. They
also have a lot of parts availability. They are still everywhere on the road.
I can't go anywhere without seeing them. They are well built. Mine has 130k
miles, still running perfect, never had any issues at all. Also, it is a good
conversion candidate. That is what someone was converting in the 94-95 time
frame (but those were Geo Prisms - which just happens to be the exact same car).
There is history out there, and a proven design.
As for what people want in an EV. This is something I have given a lot of
thought to, so here is my opinion. I am sure other people have ideas as well.
This is based on the average consumer, not an EV enthusiest or hobby person who
may be building / buying for technical challenge.
1. Performance must be similar to a low end ICE car, acceleration / speed - 0
- 45 in about 10 sec, 0 - 60 in 15 sec, top speed 65 - 70 minimum.
2. They want comfort. In other words, they don't want to freeze in the winter
or burn up in the summer.
3. People like accys, but power brakes are most critical. People will live
with manual steering.
4. The car needs to look decent, presentable. People don't want to pay
$15,000 (or even $12,000) for a 15 year old junk yard car with 200,000 + miles
on it, even if it is electric. My story ... don't convert a $150 chasis, you
will regret it.
5. The car needs to be sustainable. Parts have to be out there, available,
and not cost a fortune. If you don't see other people driving that make / model
don't do it. Parts won't be available in the future.
6. The car needs to be simple to repair so someone has a way to get it fixed
when there are issues.
7. People will pay on the order of $6500 - $12,000 for a conversion, depending
on what it is. People have a hard time spending a lot of money on something
unproven, i.e. a home made conversion. Something like a production RAV4, S10,
... is different.
8. People will not settle for anything less than a usable daily range of about
35 miles. They may only drive it 6 miles a day, but if you try to sell someone
a car with a 20 mile range, the general population won't buy it.
9. People don't want to shift a lot. Either stick with direct drive, an
automatic, or only 2 gears. If it has 2 gears, keep the clutch.
10. Make sure the batteries are reasonable in cost. If the battery pack costs
$20,000, people won't buy the car.
11. Don't undersize the motor - see item #1 above.
I still think the best bet is the dual mode hybrid conversion that is pure
electric for the first 25 miles and then has "unlimited" range in ICE mode. It
still has to have the same performance in both modes .... If I had it, I
probably would never even run it in ICE mode, but I sure would feel better about
driving it knowing that I would never get dtranded. For most people 25 miles
would be acceptable if they knew they would never get stranded.
That is just my 2 kW worth. Other people may have different opinions, so I
welcome feedback.
Steve
Jack Murray <jack@...> wrote:
Taurus is basically unchanged from '86 to present, 20 years of cars to
pick from. Prone to engine and trans failures. A big trunk. Boring
normal car with lots of standard features. Styling is always
subjective, given Taurus is one of the most popular cars in the USA, a
lot of normal people must like them.
Hey, they run them in Nascar, that frontal area can't be that big an
issue.. ;)
An alternative is the New VW Beetle, but not too many available.
If you've got another idea, put it forward..
Best Regards,
Jack
Death to All Spammers wrote:
>>The plan is to do 100's of Taurus conversions, seeking out used parts
>>from other cars would not be viable. Ultimately the question is what
>>electric car will average people buy, what features do they want.
>>Look at manual vs automatic trans cars. The vote on that is pretty
>>clear, even corvettes have more automatic trans sold.
>>Air Conditioning? Votes are in. Power windows? Power door locks?
>>Power seats? Tilt steering?
>>
>>Jack
>
>
> Is this plan to do 100's of Taurus conversions based on an actual
> business plan? You'd need financial resources to take on that
> many...or even 10 of these!
>
> Do you have some emotional or logical reason to choose the Taurus?
> While there are plenty of conversions in this size range, current
> professional converters tend to choose smaller cars (or small pickup
> trucks for their higher GVWR). I'd never want something this large in
> frontal area, and many others find its styling boring -- the latest
> Jaguar sedan looks like a Taurus with a change in grill and hood, so
> Ford blandness seems to be contageous.
>
>
>
>
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs.Try it free.
So I'm still kind of thinking about using a123 batteries, but am open to
suggestions. I talked with the guys there and they told me for my small
application (less than 100k cell) I'm going to have to come up with my
own balancing system.
This is definitely outside of my experience (strangely the rest of
building this car isn't so far) and I could use some advice / help here.
Thanks,
KD
Hybrid Electric Cobra Project
http://sinc.us/kitcar
I'll confirm that as you go faster, it gets harder and
harder to carve away any more. Each additional tenth is a lot harder.
(I used to race all by myself, now it takes a whole team!)
I noticed you mentioned that you were sagging your batteries
to as low as 5.5 volts. You should set your Zilla to never take the
pack below 1/2 the open-circuit voltage of the pack. Drawing more
amperage, but sagging the batteries below 6.3 volts each results in
less HP, not more. It puts you on the "backside" of the power curve.
Strange, but true. :^)
I'd suggest that you set the minimum pack voltage to 189
volts on your Zilla and you should get more HP and lower ETs.
>>> Theory (for those that might be interested) <<
Based on Thevenin's theorem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thevenin's_theorem
The load resistance must equal the Thevenin resistance of
the source for maximum power transfer. When this is true, the load
voltage equals 1/2 of the open-circuit voltage of the source.
http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_10/11.html
See, I don't just make this stuff up. ;^)
Bill Dube'
At 08:02 AM 7/5/2006, you wrote:
><big snip>
>
>(2) Strong as they are, I'm close to extracting the max possible
>power from the battery pack. According to the graphs Mark Farver
>made off Zilla info, at the beginning of a run, each 12V battery
>falls to about 8.2V at 1000 amps giving about 246 kw (330 hp) of
>initial power. Near the end of the 12 second run, each battery has
>fallen as low as 5.5V with the pack making just 165 kw of power (221 hp).
Jack Murray wrote:
> A separate accessory motor can be:
> - geared appropriately
Yes. Accessories don't need to work at a wide range of speeds as they do
if run from the traction motor.
> - is more efficient
That depends heavily on the exact loads. Electric motors have a broad
efficiency peak, so the loss in efficiency at different speeds is low.
You mainly lose efficiency by running at excessively low or high
*torque*. The motor is inefficient if being run at high speed but very
light load.
If the car spends a lot of time stopped, and you need high accessory
power during that time (hot day so A/C is at full blast, parallel
parking so power steering demands high power, etc.) then a separate
accessory motor will be more efficient than using the traction motor.
But if you spend a lot of time driving with low accessory power needs
(straight ahead so minimal power steering load, cool outside so A/C is
off, etc.), then driving accessories from the traction motor is more
efficient.
> - placed anywhere convenient
Yes, that's an advantage.
> - makes accessories an independent system from the traction setup
Yes, sometimes that helps (like being able to run the air conditioning
at full blast even when stopped).
> - costs a lot less to replace than the traction motor, why increase
> its wear to idle, even if slight.
No; I think you'll find separate motors cost more, and will be less
reliable (two failure points instead of one). And assuming you don't
abuse them, electric motors basically don't wear out; using the traction
motor to run accessories has an insignificant effect on life.
> - the added weight is not significant compared to a transmission.
If you are designing an EV from scratch, eliminate the transmission and
use a bigger motor and controller -- it will be cheaper and lighter
overall. But if you are converting a vehicle that already has a
transmission for "free", use it; it allows a smaller motor and
controller to be used.
> The plan is to do 100's of Taurus conversions, seeking out used parts
> from other cars would not be viable.
You should be able to buy just about any part for a Taurus new.
> Ultimately the question is what electric car will average people buy,
> what features do they want. Look at manual vs automatic trans cars.
> The vote on that is pretty clear, even corvettes have more automatic
> trans sold.
You rarely need to shift electric cars, so the disadvantages of a manual
transmission are much less. Given a choice, go with a manual.
But if you are converting existing cars, they will already have an
automatic transmission. The path of least resistance is to use it.
(Actually, the same is true for all the other engine-driven accessories;
using the existing A/C compressor, power steering pump, alternator, etc.
is simple and cheap).
> Air Conditioning? Votes are in. Power windows? Power door locks?
> Power seats? Tilt steering?
I understand. The average car buyer is accustomed to lots of luxuries,
and a car seems "stripped" without them. But here's the challenge; the
average person *won't buy an electric car*, no matter what you do,
because it is so "different" from what he's used to. It's outside his
comfort zone. Even hybrids like the Honda Civic and Toyota Camry have a
hard time selling to average buyers, even though Honda and Toyota have
bent over backwards to make the drive exactly the same, just because
people's perception is that it is "different".
So, you may find that your customers are NOT normal car buyers. That
means they may NOT have the same tastes in what accessories they like or
dislike.
> The stock Taurus transmission IS a weak point, and my intention is to
> eliminate it.
What exactly goes wrong with the transmission? It's important to know
before trying to fix it! If the problem is related to the heat or
vibration from the ICE, or failures in 1st or 4th gear, then changing to
an electric motor may solve them anyway.
In most newer cars, the transmission and differential are integrated
into one inseparable unit. And, this transaxle is integrated into the
suspension and motor mounting in such a way that it is very difficult to
change to a different unit.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
Jody Dewey wrote:
> Has anyone ever bought the Link 20 for two battery packs? Where did
> you put your shunt? I am thinking on the negative battery lead next
> to the battery.
The Link-20 has a twin shunt, with a single negative for loads, and two
separate terminals to go to each battery's negative. Thus the two
batteries must have a common ground.
The Link-20 is also missing the high-voltage prescaler functions, and
other EV-related features. You can still use it with a prescaler; but
"12.5v" is really 125v. You can use it to monitor the current in two
separate strings of batteries, as long as both strings have their
negatives tied together.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
I see now. Molex SL series for male and Molex C-Grid series for
female. Now I'll look up the dual row group as well.
Thanks Rod and Cor!
Mike
--- In ev-list-archive@yahoogroups.com, Rod Hower <ev@...> wrote:
>
> I copied the wrong part from my datasheet, it should
> be
> Molex 70553-0042
> I use these on my 5A Brushless DC controls.
> Rod
> --- Rod Hower <rodhower@...> wrote:
>
> > Molex,
> >
>
http://www.molex.com/cgi-bin/bv/molex/jsp/products/datasheet.jsp?ProductID=62542\
&BV_SessionID=@@@@2125624999.1152187065@@@@&BV_EngineID=cccdaddifejkdjjcflgcehed\
ffgdfmk.0&channel=Products&Lang=english
> > PN, 22-23-2021
> >
> > --- Mike Phillips <mikep_95133@...> wrote:
> >
> > > I need these connectors/sockets (SIP) for the
> > boards
> > > I'm working on.
> > > They have a tiny 'MX' on each one. I cannot for
> > the
> > > life of me fine
> > > them on the web. Help?
> > >
> > > Here's a pic.
> > >
> > > http://www.rotordesign.com/s10/sipconn.jpg
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Here's to the crazy ones.
> > > The misfits.
> > > The rebels.
> > > The troublemakers.
> > > The round pegs in the square holes.
> > > The ones who see things differently
> > > The ones that change the world!!
> > >
> > > www.RotorDesign.com
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
--- Lee Hart <leeahart@...> wrote:
> Accessories don't need to work at a wide range of speed
I'm looking to run my AC and power steering off an accessory motor. We know that
the AC may cycle
on and off, but I'd like to configure the power steering pump cycle also, only
run at slow road
speeds. (Maybe use an AC type clutch on the PS pump that is only energized below
10-20 mph.) In
this setup I have two separate loads cycling independently off one motor. If I
know the max power
I need, (both AC and power steering running) what is the best motor/controller
for the job? Is
there a type of DC motor that, if I supply it the right voltage, will run at a
specific speed
(maybe 1500 rpm) and try to hold that speed under load? Do I need a PWM
controller and some kind
of governor? I'd also like to shut off the accessory motor if neither the AC nor
power steering
are in use.
Thanks
Dave Cover
PS I have a treadmill motor I'd love to use, just not sure how to control it.
Martin Klingensmith wrote:
> FWIW it says it uses an "Active filter" on the power side. This leads me
> to believe it has active PFC, which it probably should for being a motor
> load. If this is the case, it probably runs on a universal input as well
> though it only says 115VAC/60Hz.
I would guess that "active filter" is not PFC, but rather a simpler
noise filter to get past EMI regulations. Inverters generate a lot of
electrical noise. A brute force LC filter is large and expensive. So, it
is common to look at the EMI regulations, and devise an active filter
that nulls out specific harmonics so they just barely squeak past the
test. For an example, google the "valley fill circuit", which just uses
capacitors and diodes.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
Lee, I have often fantasized about a hot rod City Car being the ultimate
sleeper on the street. Any Vette blown away by one would have a hard time
living it down. Of course it would have the words "Electric Car" very big on
the sides, the front and the rear. You would have room enough to run a high
voltage string of Hawker 16 amp/hr batteries. You could get a narrowed 9"
Ford from a Taylor Dunn golf cart. These are so narrow they would allow for
a tubbed type rear with the rear tires almost touching each other on the
inner sides of the tires. Since it is so light you would not need a
transmission. Hey Lee, when are we going to get started on yours :-)
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <leeahart@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 6:03 PM
Subject: Re: Hacked Old Mail Truck
> Rich Rudman wrote:
>> You were stuck with using the same layout that the Van came with...
>> The point is... When doing twin 500 Hp drive trains, inventing them
>> is a really hard thing to do... If we really were hunting for sub
>> 10 seconds like we were bragging about... what to use and where to
>> get it would have been different.
>
> Ok, just for fun...
>
> What would have happened if you started with something small and light
> to begin with, like my old ComutaVan? It was an "old mail truck", too.
> But it weighed under 1000 lbs without batteries. And already had a rigid
> pipe space frame, solid front and rear axles, with tons of room for even
> a huge Ford 9"er.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.9/382 - Release Date: 7/4/2006
>
>
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.9/382 - Release Date: 7/4/2006
Lee Hart wrote:
>> K is a constant for that particular motor.
Bill Dennis wrote:
> By "that particular motor" do you mean that model, or the specific
> unit that you bought. If you mean model, where does one find the K
> info for ADC motors? I wasn't able to locate it on the ADC web site.
> If you mean that particular unit, what tests does one need to run
> to determine it?
The design of the motor defines K. It will change very slightly between
motors of the same model, due to normal manufacturing variations, but
not enough to matter.
K is a published spec for servo motors, or motors in applications where
someone needs to know the torque vs. current relationship. But Advanced
DC doesn't specify it; I suppose they don't think their customers are
that sophisticated.
You can calculate the value of K yourself from the data sheets. Read the
torque and current at two points near rated current, and find the value
of K (and the exponent to raise the current to) by trial and error.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
K&W still responds to telephone support problems.
Mike Bachand
Denver Electric Vehicle Council (DEVC)
Kawasaki Ninja EV
Is this the same k & n that Ueve's motor calculations figure out? If so, then it
should be easy to calculate what we're looking for...
-Matt
----- Original Message -----
From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
Date: Thursday, July 6, 2006 11:31 am
Subject: Re: DC Motor torque calculations
> Lee Hart wrote:
> >> K is a constant for that particular motor.
>
> Bill Dennis wrote:
> > By "that particular motor" do you mean that model, or the specific
> > unit that you bought. If you mean model, where does one find the K
> > info for ADC motors? I wasn't able to locate it on the ADC web site.
> > If you mean that particular unit, what tests does one need to run
> > to determine it?
>
> The design of the motor defines K. It will change very slightly
> betweenmotors of the same model, due to normal manufacturing
> variations, but
> not enough to matter.
>
> K is a published spec for servo motors, or motors in applications
> wheresomeone needs to know the torque vs. current relationship.
> But Advanced
> DC doesn't specify it; I suppose they don't think their customers are
> that sophisticated.
>
> You can calculate the value of K yourself from the data sheets.
> Read the
> torque and current at two points near rated current, and find the
> valueof K (and the exponent to raise the current to) by trial and
> error.--
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
The operation of PFC is such that the current drawn is proportional to the
voltage. A constant voltage should create a constant current into the PFC
stage. It's a moot point, I don't think anyone's seriously going to buy
this A/C and try to run it on DC. You're right though that it could blow
up, but I don't think it "should". It depends on their method of control.
--
Martin K
On Thu, July 6, 2006 3:13 am, Danny Miller wrote:
> But active PFC strategies generally wouldn't work with a DC input.
> First off PFC has no meaning at all on a DC input.
>
>
> PFC is a switching scheme that senses points on the waveform- and there
> is only one voltage point on the input. It may burn up, may not even turn
> on, or may work fine. There's no telling.
>
> Now note PFC and doing a variable DC/DC conversion to provide an optimum
> motor voltage for a given load and/or be insensitive to input voltage
> variations are two different things. Now that conversion will almost
> certainly have a output that controls the PFC filter.
>
> Danny
>
>
> Martin Klingensmith wrote:
>
>
>> FWIW it says it uses an "Active filter" on the power side. This leads
>> me to believe it has active PFC, which it probably should for being a
>> motor load. If this is the case, it probably runs on a universal input as
>> well though it only says 115VAC/60Hz. So who knows? Regarding the Mr Slim
>> units, I've heard they aren't all that reliable. --
>> Martin K
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Chris,
<but changing the spec was too much work. >
Ummm<G>. One thing you might do to minimize the possibility of problems is
plan your battery racks with lots of cooling. When we ran the Kokam's at a
higher current than they were designed for (10C - 700 amps vs. 8C - 560
amps), they got hot. Using a fan, we could keep them within their
temperature operating range and they worked fine. Running them too hot can
kill the cells and probably hurts cycle life.
Since the Valence BMS includes temperature sensors, it should help you by
letting you know if the batteries are getting too hot. Does the system allow
you to set the temperature warning level? Would you be able to see which
module is having high temperature problems to tune your cooling?
>> I'm not sure what you mean by thermal stability.
> >Could you post some more information?
>
> According to Valence, common lithium ion polymer
> batteries have cobalt oxide that freely gives up their
> oxygen, so in the event of thermal runaway they can
> catch on fire and not be extinguishable.
Oh, I saw their famed 'bullet in the battery pack' video. It made me wonder
what Valence had been doing to make people want to shoot at them <G>.
Kokam's pass the impact test, nail penetration test, over heating test,
crush test, over charging test
http://www.kokam.com/english/product/kokam_safety_02.html. Personally, I've
crunched them, short circuited them, run 600 amps through a dead cell for
several laps, all without any fire.
I have had a number of people approach me at car shows and say that they
would never risk driving in a car full of lithium batteries. "It's too
dangerous!" And most of these people drove to the show with 10 gallons of
highly explosive liquid sloshing around their car while holding a lithium
polymer cell to their head while chatting on their cell phone. Which, by the
way, a recent study claims is more dangerous than driving while legally
intoxicated!
Sorry. <Deep Breath> Got carried away for a moment.
This problem was not started by Valence, so it is unfair to blame them. I
just do not think a sales strategy of fear is a very good one.
>The
> Kokams at 1400 cycles at 100% DOD to 80% capacity at
> 25C sounds great -- much better than the 500 cycles I
> got from somewhere when I was shopping last year.
Yes. The old cells were rated >500 cycles. Kokam brought out the new cells
in January of this year after two years of testing.
> Each battery module has cell voltage, temperature and
> current sensors, and automatic shunting circuitry
> around each of the 4 cells during charging.
How much current can they shunt?
>My plan for now is to have it drive my
> Brusa charger over CANBus,
Will you have to do any programming or is it pretty much 'plug and play'?
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
On 7/4/06, Bill & Nancy <njbrw549@...> wrote:
> Repalce that fuel cell with a good set of batteries aaand.....!
> Bill
That was my thinking exactly! :)
-Mike
Lol!
Sorry, I forgot the link. That wasn't the same place I found it, but
it was the same clip.
-Mike
On 7/4/06, Cor van de Water <CWater@...> wrote:
> Link?
> I found a video linked here:
> http://www.ecogeek.org/
> Also features the (electrical!) Pivo.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: CWater@... Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: cor_van_de_water@...
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
> Behalf Of Mike Ellis
> Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2006 10:20 AM
> To: ev@...
> Subject: Top Gear clip of Hy-Wire
>
>
> The article at this page is pretty blah, but there is a video clip of
> the GM Hy-Wire being test driven, explained, and disassembled.
>
> This is what I would like to do with my conversion.
>
> -Mike
>
>
Rod,
Does this video exist anywhere?
-Mike (fast-ev video addict)
On 7/5/06, Roderick Wilde <roderick@...> wrote:
> Way to go John! We do need much more positive coverage of EVs. The general
> public still doesn't understand the potential. With the new Lithiums coming
> on they surely will. At least the other racers will find out :-) The Reality
> Shows of course do not show reality. I did do one good show about seven
> years ago. It was called "The New Edge" and the host was Ryan Seacrest. Some
> here may have heard of him because of hosting "American Idol" and "American
> Top 40". He rode with me in the "Maniac Mazda" as we blew the doors off a
> Dodge Viper and the action was all caught on film including his uncontrolled
> excitement from the cam inside the car. John, I sure hope your filming gets
> out there in the public realm.
>
> Roderick Wilde
> "Suck Amps EV Racing"
> www.suckamps.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Wayland" <jw@...>
> To: <ev@...>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 7:02 AM
> Subject: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)
>
>
> Hello to All,
>
> What a great night of electric drag racing Friday night was! No, White
> Zombie did not achieve the goal of busting into the 11s, but the night
> was still a big one as far as advancing the notion that electrics are
> nothing to laugh at anymore. Many of my EV friends came to take in the
> excitement. Of course, the usual suspects were there...Marko Mongillo,
> Rich Rudman down from way up north in Washington state, and Damon Henry
> (also from Washington across the river) who once again arrived on his
> NiCad powered electric motorcycle. In addition to these guys, we were
> also accompanied by Steve Kiser and Duane Gergich who brought their
> electric drag bike down from Washington. Many from the OEVA (Oregon
> Electric Vehicle Association) gang came too...Greg, Gary, Jay and others
> I'm sure I've forgotten, and many of my forklift wrench work buddies
> came, too. Members of my family also showed up. I appreciate all the
> support!
>
> Man, those 11's are hard to get! White Zombie did the usual job of
> stunning those unfamiliar with today's level of electric car
> performance, and yes, I toasted a built El Camino muscle car, beat
> another muscle car, beat a 12 second 4 wheel drive turboed Sube ricer,
> and held my own (but lost) with two pro stock cars, but nope, no
> 11-anything...just low 12's. I guess having an electric street legal
> sedan that 'only' runs 12.3 @ 100+ mph consistently (all 5 runs were
> 100+ mph, with the average at 103 mph) aint all that bad :-) Still,
> being honest in my assessment, I failed to hit my goal. No excuses this
> time. Absolutely perfect weather, good (not great) track conditions, a
> fully charged and fully heated up battery pack, and ultra-fast recharge
> turn-around times were all on hand setting the stage for 11's, but it
> wasn't o be.
>
> There are, however, two reasons that seem to be validation for why the
> car seems to have hit another performance wall.
>
> (1) As Tim reported to me on the 2nd pass the only other time we've been
> able to make runs at PIR this year (we got rained out after the third
> run back in early June), that old bugaboo vibration issue is back...BIG
> TIME. The car accelerates like crazy, with a great 60 ft. time and a
> strong 1/8th mile time, but at between approximately 90 - 100 mph the
> vibration begins and ramps up so strong, it feels like the car is going
> to shake apart. The acceleration simply ceases as the car's power
> appears to be totally absorbed by the vibration. Then, after what seems
> to be maybe two l-o-n-g seconds, suddenly the vibration vanishes, the
> car becomes turbine smooth again, and it resumes a fairly decent pull as
> the speed goes higher again where the car gains those extra 3-4 mph to
> where the trap speed comes out at 103-104 mph. If the vibration wasn't
> there and those two seconds of stalled acceleration were replaced with
> mild continued high mph acceleration, it's pretty clear to me after
> driving the car, that the average ET of 12.3 @ 103-104 mph would have
> dropped into high 11's @ 107-108 mph. Oh well, that wasn't the case
> Friday night :-(
>
> I suspect we've cracked the Ford nine inch casting again :-( The
> instantaneous torque from the Siamese 8 fed with 2000 amps off line is
> huge, and the series-to-parallel shift also at 2000 amps around 80 mph
> is also brutal. In fact, on the last run Friday night, the car broke
> traction at the shift-over point bad enough that the rear end got loose
> and the rear tires squealed and chirped with wisps of smoke coming off
> both tires (video captured)....this, at near 80 mph! I also noticed lots
> of extra 'noises' from the rear end that got worse as the night went
> on...not good! The last rebuild of the rear end revealed that we had
> been dealing with pinion bearing wobble due to a full split across the
> casting of the massive rear end, and that this was the source of the
> vibration issue. After another perfect condition 9 inch casting was
> found, a pro Ford nine inch rebuilder installed a new Richmond Gear set,
> all new bearings, etc., and the vibration was totally gone. Now, it's
> back :-( Guess I'm gonna be pulling the rear end out soon to see what's up.
>
> (2) After repeated hard runs and fast recharges, the pack got so hot
> that touching the aluminum case nearly burned my hand. The last run of
> the night vented the batteries and lifted the pop-on top covers on
> several. No squirting liquid and no pooled electrolyte, but they did
> vent and make a very light fog that lasted maybe 30 seconds on the
> inside of the Lexan compartment cover. This model battery is rated at
> 925 amps for 5 seconds, and I'm pulling 1000 amps for an average of
> double that amount of time, so the batteries are performing well above
> their specs.
>
> With the vibration halting top end acceleration and with very hot
> stressed-out batteries, I made the decision after 5 strong runs to cut
> my losses and stop racing for the night to save the pack. Four days
> after the races, all the batteries measure good and the pack rests at
> 390V, the same it usually does at 75-80 degrees. If any damage was done,
> it seems to be minimal, so I'm glad I didn't keep punishing the pack.
>
> Conclusions...
>
> (1) Until I can fix the problem and eliminate the vibration, I don't
> think the car is going to hit the 11's...it simply robs too much power.
>
> (2) Strong as they are, I'm close to extracting the max possible power
> from the battery pack. According to the graphs Mark Farver made off
> Zilla info, at the beginning of a run, each 12V battery falls to about
> 8.2V at 1000 amps giving about 246 kw (330 hp) of initial power. Near
> the end of the 12 second run, each battery has fallen as low as 5.5V
> with the pack making just 165 kw of power (221 hp).
>
> I'm rethinking the current stack of 30, 26 ahr, 24 lb. Hawker
> Aerobatteries. I remember back to 2000 when I ran a 378 lb. 336V pack of
> the half-sized Hawker 16 EP models, 16 ahr 13.5 lb. little bricks of
> power that could deliver 750 amps during low 13 second runs, over, and
> over. At 750 amps each battery would sag to ~6.9V (going off analog
> gauges in the car). A double string of 30 of these for 60 total
> batteries would make a 360V pack that weighs about 90 lbs. more. This
> pack would sag less than the current packs does at 1000 amps, while
> cranking out a whopping 1500 battery amps! Assuming a conservative 6.5V
> per battery of initial sag, the pack would kneel to 195V at 1500 amps
> for 295 kw (395 hp) of power giving 65 more hp than the current pack of
> 26 ahr batteries do. It's possible that the overly beefy intercell
> straps inside the smaller 16 ahr models contain heating under high loads
> better than the larger 26 ahr units the car currently has. Back when we
> were racing in the 90's, the earliest versions of the 16 ahr batteries
> would fuse open their internal cell straps. After sending destroyed
> batteries to Hawker engineers, they redesigned the batteries with
> beefier straps...cool. Perhaps the strapping of the bigger 26 ahr models
> aren't as proportionately beefy, and with 1000 amps passing through them
> (250 amps more than when using their smaller batteries) the inter-cell
> straps are a limiting factor...they probably get pretty hot inside the
> battery. This would explain the rapid heat build-up and subsequent
> venting. On the flip side, it's also possible that with the vibration
> eliminated and thus the power robbing issue gone, the car might just
> crack the 11's with the current pack. No decision has been made here,
> I'm just blabbing my thoughts...
>
> OK, enough post racing analysis...on with the fun parts.
>
> The big show of the night came from Steve Kiser and Duane Gergich with
> their electric drag bike. Formerly Father Time's 'Dragon Rose', at the
> Sept. '04 Woodburn drags with Duane doing the driving, this gorgeous
> 156V bike set a NEDRA world record for the MT/D class when it ran an
> impressive 12.497 @ 100.7 mph! Steve and Duane now own the bike and have
> it in pristine condition these days, with lustrous cherry red paint and
> the thing detailed to the max...it's beautiful to look at! They had it
> on display at the June 24th SEVA Gasless on Greenwood car show, where I
> brow beat them, shamed them, and downright taunted them into bring the
> machine south to Portland to join me for Friday night electric drag racing.
>
> I had written:
>
> > As a bonus for EV racing fans, Duane Gergich and Steve Kiser will be
> joining us with their Father Time-built outrageous drag bike
> > that has run 12.4 @ 100 mph. I twisted their arms yesterday at the
> SEVA Greenwood car show.
>
> Well, came they did!
>
> The bike's now nearly 5 year old Hawker batteries, 13 of the little 13
> ahr models that weigh just 10.5 lbs. each, had sat un-charged and
> un-loved for the past 1.5 years since the record was set...argghh! Yet,
> after being charged, driven on, and charged a few times the batteries
> shed their sulfation and flexed their electro-chemical muscles and made
> some serious power! Can you say 12.5 @ 100 mph? Can you say that, twice?
> Before these two great runs though, Duane had a tough time getting his
> act together :-) His first run netted an embarrassing 63 mph at 14
> seconds....wait...how do you only get 63 mph with a 14 second run?
> Easy...you get confused and let off the throttle at the 1/8th mile
> marker! Boy, we had Duane hanging his head in shame over this one, and a
> certain Plasma Boy took advantage of the moment and really rubbed it in.
> Duane took it in stride and laughed along with the rest of us (at
> himself), then turned around and stuck it to everybody! After the track
> announcer told everyone there was an electric motorcycle in the burnout
> pit, Duane decided to shut up the snickers over a 63 mph motorcycle, and
> with Steve out on track setting up the burnout perfectly with staging
> help, he gave a dramatic go-ahead hand motion, signaling Duane to do the
> most scorching bike burnout I've ever seen! It was awesome.
>
> I had also written:
>
> > I can hardly wait to see the crowd's reaction to their quick very red
> electric bike with it's BIG electric motor clearly visible, and the fat
> >drag slick and long wheelie bar extension making quite statement.
> >
>
> The crowd indeed, went nuts cheering and hooting. Then, after expending
> a lot of power into the burnout, Duane made the Hawkers puke out even
> more power and jammed the bike down the track running a 12.8 second
> blast! Hawkers rock! Yeah, this wiped away all those snickers! After
> that run, came the 12.5 second 100 mph runs back to back...very
> impressive for a non-advanced 8 inch ADC motor, just 156V worth of 5
> year old Hawkers, and a Raptor controller. Imagine the motor properly
> advanced, 192V of brand new Hawkers, and a Zilla Z1K? Can you say 11's?
> How 'bout 300+V of hi current LiIons, a Zilla, and the same motor
> prepped by Jim Husted? Can you say 'Hello, Bill Dube?"
>
> Much of the credit for the bike's strong showing has to go to Madman
> Rudman, as he had charging the bike down, big time! After I had argued
> with him about getting us all hooked into the AC mains at the track so I
> could shut off the damn stink'n generator in the back of my service
> truck, and after he found a maintenance shack where the power pigtail
> box equipped with the Cam Lok connectors was stored, and after he made a
> special run to a local home improvement type store to get more
> electrical parts, he had us wired! Gone was the noise and stink,
> replaced with silent and abundant AC power! Using my PFC50x, during
> Zombie recharging, ~12 kw of power was rapidly sent into the hungry
> pack, 29.8 amps @ 401V, and the turn-around time was about 7
> minutes...every bit as good as I used to get with a dump charge pack!
> Madman repeatedly charged the bike up to 80% in 3 minutes and it was
> fully charged and ready to run again in 5 scant minutes...a 5 minute
> turn-around! Of course, the mighty Hawkers simply took in the power,
> dished it out, then took it in again...remember, they are nearly 5 years
> old, and sat for 1.5 years uncharged and unused...incredible batteries!
> Did I say, Hawkers rock?
>
> Back to White Zombie...The night was bitter sweet, with the first run
> one of the most exciting, for sure. Normally, the first run comes in at
> around 13 flat, with the second run a high 12, then subsequent runs
> getting quicker as the battery pack heats up. Friday started off much
> better though. For the first attempt, White Zombie was lined up next to
> a very loud V8 muscle car, a green Chevy El Camino with a built 350 cid
> V8. This bad ass machine had fat drag slicks in back and its heavily
> cammed V8 lumped and thumped at idle in true muscle car fashion. At the
> burnout pits the Chevy did a ferocious burnout that had the crowd's
> attention immediately...all the while I drove around the water pit and
> waited for him to end his testosterone fueled display of power. I had
> figured that with a wimpy first run going to be in the low 13s, why
> bother to do a burnout? The El Camino driver was serving notice that the
> little 'ol Datsun next to him was going to get blown away, and he was
> jabbing the throttle making the car jump...the car acted much like a
> bull does as he snorts and claws the dirt. The best part, is that this
> whole showdown was captured by a professional camera crew that had come
> down from Seattle to do a special on 'White Zombie vs the muscle cars'.
>
> I had previously written:
>
> > there was a reporter/camera crew covering the Greenwood EVent....the
> reporter/camera crew are heading to Portland to film both >electrics
> running against the gassers this Friday, and to hopefully capture White
> Zombie cracking the 11s.
>
> So, why were these guys so pumped about coming to the drags to get this
> on tape? It goes back to the Seattle car show on June 24th. The
> interview guy is a hoot, and goes by the nickname 'Pixel'. Pixel had
> talked with me about having seen both the 'Sucking Amps' show featuring
> Rod Wilde, his crew, and 'Gone Postal', and the 'Monster Garage episode
> featuring the build crew that included Mad Man Rudman and Shawn Lawless.
> He commented that for him it was disappointing that in both shows, the
> electrics didn't actually win their races and that cool as they were, in
> the end they underperformed for this reason or that, and they got beat
> by the gas cars. He then said to me, "So, you actually 'win' races
> against the gassers?" I said, "Sure, I beat them all the time. I also
> loose to them as well. There's always faster cars. But in general, White
> Zombie is very competitive with the cars it runs against, and it wins
> more than loses the heads up matches it gets into." Pixel then said,
> "Cool, then the world needs to see this. There needs to be a show where
> the electric beats the gas cars. Note....I'm not trying to diss any of
> my EV buddies or their hard earned accomplishments here, these comments
> are direct quotes from Pixel.
>
> Back to the track....Frankly, I was a bit concerned that this first
> battle might not turn out so great for the cameras, as the El Camino
> 'did' sound and look as if it could kick my Datsun's butt. I would later
> hear that some of the younger dudes who knew my car had put their money
> on the Zombie. We staged as the announcer told everyone that the little
> white Datsun was an electric car. Then the tree's lights sequenced
> down...yellow, yellow, yellow....FLOOR the
> ACCELERATOR!!!!....Green.....Wheels lift, nose in the air, my neck
> snapped back, and the race was on! The El Camino's V8 roared and shook
> my guts, but the sound faded as he couldn't stay with the Zombie. The
> run felt strong and the Zombie pulled hard, then the parallel up shift
> happened accompanied by a brief rear end swing as the drag radials broke
> loose then grabbed. I could still hear the El Camino at full boil, but I
> could also see him in my rear view mirror :-) The best part for me, is
> that this poor muscle head dude had to read the 'SUCK AMPS' plastered
> across the Zombie's rear window all the way down the track as he was
> getting whupped by a little 'ol tin can Datsun (as Rudman calls it) with
> a bunch of batteries! The finish line reader boards said it all....El
> Camino 13.091 @ 100.75 mph - White Zombie 12.524 @ 101.76 mph, all
> captured by a professional film crew! Never, had White Zombie been
> driven to the track to run a mid 12 out of the box...an incredible first
> run for the night, and we were all convinced the car was poised to rip
> into the 11s. Of course, it felt great knowing the camera crew had
> already got what they came for....filming an electric car take on and
> beat muscle cars.
>
> To be continued....
>
> See Ya.....John Wayland
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
>
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>
EV Digest 5624
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Hosing down batteries
by Jimmy <zetaomega2000@...>
2) Re: Powerglide 2-speed Transmission
by "Mark Ward" <thescreendoctor@...>
3) Re: Batteries / Balancing (4 E Cobra)
by David Dymaxion <david_dymaxion@...>
4) Danny's Contentment
by "Mike Ellis" <michael.ellis@...>
5) Lectra,streamliner fairing & Schwinn Chopper have to go.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <primobassoon@...>
6) Re: Taurus EV
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <primobassoon@...>
7) Re: e-volks
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <primobassoon@...>
8) RE: Taurus EV
by "Roger Stockton" <rstockton@...>
9) Re: Wikipedia EV conversion
by "Mike Ellis" <michael.ellis@...>
10) Re: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)
by "Rich Rudman" <rmanzan@...>
11) Re: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)
by Mark Farver <mfarver@...>
12) New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
by "Roderick Wilde" <roderick@...>
13) Re: Taurus EV
by Mark Farver <mfarver@...>
14) Re: NEDRA to attend RPM Show at Indy "Woodburn at PIR?"???
by "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
15) Re: Hosing down batteries, Go For It.? IF, see below
by "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
16) Re: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
by Dave Cover <davecover@...>
17) RE: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)
by "Matthew D. Graham" <MGraham@...>
18) RE: Taurus EV
by "Roger Stockton" <rstockton@...>
> Christopher Zach wrote:
> >
> > > However, the only way I'd do this with a high voltage pack (anything
> > > over 120v) is if I split the pack into several unconnected groups,
> each
> > > below 48v or so.
> >
> > Hm. How safe/dangerous is 75 volts? I have rigged my PrPrizmsing a 3
> > phase switch as the disconnect and it bisects the pack into two with
> one
> > set, and divides each side into two regions with the other. Thus the
> max
> > voltage I can be nailed with is 75.
> >
> > Is this safe or still dangerous enough to get me killed?
>
> My CoComutaVanad a 72v pack with half in the front box, and half in the
> rear box. With a stream of water from my garden hose spraying the most
> positive battery terminal in a box, and my hand on the negative terminal
> in that box (a 36v difference), I couldn't even feel any current. So I
> just sprayed down the batteries, letting the water, acid residue, and
> whatever other crud there was drain out the bottom. I sprayed the water
> with one hand, and scscrubedhe tops with a scrub brush in the other
> hand.
>
> I felt safe doing this, because the worst voltage I could reach was only
> 36v (+72v and -72v are at opposite ends of the car). But I certainly
> wouldn't do this with a higher voltage pack, or anywhere you could get
> more than about 48v of difference!
> Lee A. Hart
I have had strings up to 156v and have been hosing them down since my
first pack. Any voltage over 48v is deadly, so I follow the same
guideline as when I learned how to work on old TV sets - never put both
hands into the work, always keep one hand behind your back when working
with high voltage. It is sometimes hard to keep your leg from touching
the frame but at least the voltage wont cross your chest and go through
your heart.
I take a 5 gal bucket fill it up and add 1 cup of baking soda, a big
squirt of detergent soap and flush/brush with one hand then rinse. Repeat
until satisfied, then rinse with clean water. I like to use open battery
frames since this minimizes any buildup, I drill drain holes at the lowest
points of closed boxes . I also set the batteries on small pieces of old
rubber mats to electrically isolate and give the water the ability to
flush under the batteries as well.
Using baking soda "mats" will be a good insulator for a short period but
eveventually they become conductive and you have to remove the pack to
clean it out. When I first started to clean out my Jet Electrica the
previous owners used the baking soda bed in a "sealed" box technique.
What I found were sodium bicarbonate concretions that plugged all the rust
holes thereby masking the fact that the battery box was deteriorated.
I flush the pack evevery time fill with water and spray the tops and
connections with a water repellent.
Jimmy
I have to say that there are a lot of people I have talked to on this forum
that have pretty fixed ideas about what is good for an EV. They will tell
you not to use an automatic, but I believe part of this is lack of
understanding of newer technologies. I also believe a lot of them are
promoting their own agenda or products and have been less than willing to
help me with information or support. Since I have had to work in isolation,
I believe I have come up with some pretty good new ideas for my design.
Sometimes necessity is truly the mother of innovation or invention!
Newer transmissions use a shifting sequence controlled by a computer. In my
case there are 4 solenoids, one of which is used to lock the torque
converter. I plan to get control of these via a centrino based pc and set
my own shift points. The shift tables are included in Mitchell all-data.
If all else fails it is possible to drive in D1 or D2 to optimize the rpms
on the motor.
In ancient times transmissions shifted by vacuum or kick down shift
mechanisms which severely limited their flexibility for uses other than with
gasoline engines. Such is the case with the old powerglides. Thankfully
things are changing. Today's automatics are a lot more efficient than their
older counterparts. I expect to lose some range (yes there are some
losses), but built that into the factors calculating the usefulness of my
vehicle. I expect to get 25 to 30 miles, but only drive 15 average per
day, so no big deal to me. Certain things are just not negotiable to me,
like having a car with class and the features one would expect to find all
of which will be working when it is done, right down to the cruise control.
On the drawing board now is my future "torque converter replacement" which
will eliminate that part of the transmission entirely. I will implement
that sometime down the road if I need to improve the performance.
Best of luck in your quest.
Getting closer each day!
Mark Ward
95 Saab 900 SE "Saabrina"
www.saabrina.blogspot.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne" <wayne@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 3:17 PM
Subject: Re: Powerglide 2-speed Transmission
> Has anyone looked at Jack Knopf 's '64 Chevelle?
> (http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/640 and his web page for good info on the
> Powerglide). This one intrigues me to no end...
>
> There's just GOT to be a way to modify a "regular" automatic...At least I
> wish there were a way...Probably too expensive...
>
> Wayne Whtie
>
>
>
> If those of us who "can", "do" then those of us who "can't" won't suffer
> as much from the high prices of excess.
Maybe you could use the tool batteries (is it Dewalt?) that the A123
batteries are going into -- If the tool battery pack has a built in
monitoring circuitry then you are set. I'm not sure how well they
would share current, though. You'd probably want to do a mini-pack
(maybe 4 tool batteries, 2 parallel strings of 2 in series) to test
things first.
--- Michael T Kadie <kd@...> wrote:
> So I'm still kind of thinking about using a123 batteries, but am
> open to
> suggestions. I talked with the guys there and they told me for my
> small
> application (less than 100k cell) I'm going to have to come up with
> my
> own balancing system.
> This is definitely outside of my experience (strangely the rest of
> building this car isn't so far) and I could use some advice / help
> here.
>
> Thanks,
>
> KD
> Hybrid Electric Cobra Project
>
> http://sinc.us/kitcar
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Cleaning out the garage. My Lectra has got to go.
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/446 After 6 or so years of faithful service
I'm switching to a chopper style motorcycle & the funds from the sale of the
Lectra will make that happen. I'm also selling the Schwinn Stingray I built
last winter. http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/222 It's a little faster than
Gemini but I can get Gemini in the trunk and the Schwinn is just to cool to
fold. & wifey says it has to go. No multiple EV's. So I get one scooter,
motorcycle and car. I also have Craig Vetter's last streamliner fairing. I
had an idea to set a range record with the Lectra and that dream never came
to life. I'm asking 600 for that. Lawrence Rhodes.......
The Taurus was the same from start to around the mid ninties. Around then
they changed to a longer narrower body. The orginal 10 years of cars were
roomy & pound for pound could hold a lot of weight. The best carry ratio of
any passenger car or station wagon around. So you can hold more batteries
without going over the GVW too much. There were a lot of them so you can
find use parts cheap. Lawrence Rhodes..
How did e-volks make good on the messed up parts? Or did they? Do they make
good with their customers? Inquiring minds would like to know. Lawrence
Rhodes....
Steve Powers wrote:
> As for what people want in an EV. This is something I have
> given a lot of thought to, so here is my opinion. I am sure
> other people have ideas as well.
FWIW, here are a few of my thoughts...
> 4. The car needs to look decent, presentable. People don't
> want to pay $15,000 (or even $12,000) for a 15 year old junk
> yard car with 200,000 + miles on it, even if it is electric.
I'd go further an say that people don't want to pay $10-15k *more* for a
plain jane used car even in great condition than they would pay for the
same car as an ICE. The car has to have some redeemable/desirable
features above and beyond being electric.
> 6. The car needs to be simple to repair so someone has a
> way to get it fixed when there are issues.
The only other thing I can think of is that people want to know that
there will be service and support for their vehicle after the purchase.
With any car converted to electric this is already a large question
mark, but I would suggest one could try to minimise the concern by
reusing as many stock parts as possible. That is, use the stock tranny
so that if/when tranny issues arise it can (in theory at least) be
serviced by any dealer or third party tranny shop and there won't be any
concern with having to have parts custom machined for a custom-modified
tranny or having to try and source service parts for the Swiss fixed
reduction transaxle that was otherwise an ideal mate to the AC motor
that was used.
Use the stock AC and P/S; if possible, mount them to be driven using the
same belt as the stock ICE drove them with, though this is less of an
issue since a shop can measure the old belt to determine the appropriate
replacement... unless the belt breaks and is lost on the road.
> 7. People will pay on the order of $6500 - $12,000 for a
> conversion, depending on what it is.
I think this is extremely optimistic. I believe that conversions
typically sell for significantly less... usually less than the cost of
the components used to convert them. Very few people are willing to pay
the $10-15k that it costs to have a turn-key conversion of the vehicle
of their choice built professionally for them.
Cheers,
Roger.
I visited the page and was somewhat horrified to discover that the
first type of conversion listed was "Novelty." Novelty also had the
biggest and the most pictures.
Next was bikes with a picture.
No pics at all for actual cars and trucks.
We can sign up and edit the page. I'd do it but I think maybe someone
with more EV cred would be a good idea.
-Mike
On 7/4/06, Rod Hower <rodhower@...> wrote:
> Had some extra time today so I spent some time at
> wikipedia.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_vehicle_conversion
>
> It seems that almost all of the categories have very
> little information and links. I just thought the list
> could contribute our collective knowlege to make this
> a better resourse for those looking into EV's.
> Rod
>
>
Yea but the Battery itself has a power peak, and it's not always 1/2 the
open circuit voltage.
That's why we do battery blast tests, to find this spot..
As you recall Bill you dropped your SVR pack below the point that we had
found.
As as you now predict.. you get less power and blew up batteries.
The Thevenin Theorm is applicable to the controller design and it's
operation. The controller allows for power in a range that can be used.
That's why we don't contactor drive series wound motors with 100C rated
Lions... or even 20 C AGM now days.
Wayland is asking more from his batteries than they can make. In his mind he
needs more power.
I grant that in the simple world of going faster..he could use more But..
and this is the Big Butt right now.
He is launching with the front tires in the air, and slamming the car
sideways with the Series parallel transfer. Any more real power gains are
going to come with a hefty cost.
He is breaking his drive train with the torque slam on the start and at s/P.
Most racers ...ie ICE driven racers can load the drive train until the Green
light.. John can't because he has to bump up to the lights, and then the
back lash is still loose when he launches...
Otmar's Curse/Blessing at the s/P change over is just too brutal. At the
power levels and RPM that Wayland is making.. he's totally unloading the
diffy for 500 msec then going back to full amps in like 50 Ms. This is like
using a 100 lbs Sledge hammer with a 2000 lbs strong arm on the gear faces
and bearings. This happens on Every run at the same point.
We have to find a better way of changing over the contactors.
And Yes Bill you need to do so with your motor drive setup also. You are
loosing 500 Milliseconds... That's rather large in your world and you are
really stressing your drive chain doing this.
Somebody else had this problem about 15 years ago... and welded chain on
every other run. Much effort has been expended to totally reduce drive train
back lash...
You and Wayland now have the same issues to solve...
Series parallel lets two kinda stock motors.. Hey they have the same field
windings and air gaps and same molded comms... Stock is stock! Behave much
better than a single stock motor.
But... it comes at a cost of contactors and therefore you can't run them
continuously from one end of the track to the other...without twin
controllers.
I think I can do better runs by using the manual s/P switch and a little
practice. The one of the big points in John's case is to allow for manual
power control AFTER the s/P event, this may allow him to climb back on the
power without or with minimal traction losses, and may let him drive through
the "Shake and Bake" vibration problem.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "BillDube@..." <billdube@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 6:40 AM
Subject: Re: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)
> I'll confirm that as you go faster, it gets harder and
> harder to carve away any more. Each additional tenth is a lot harder.
> (I used to race all by myself, now it takes a whole team!)
>
> I noticed you mentioned that you were sagging your batteries
> to as low as 5.5 volts. You should set your Zilla to never take the
> pack below 1/2 the open-circuit voltage of the pack. Drawing more
> amperage, but sagging the batteries below 6.3 volts each results in
> less HP, not more. It puts you on the "backside" of the power curve.
> Strange, but true. :^)
>
> I'd suggest that you set the minimum pack voltage to 189
> volts on your Zilla and you should get more HP and lower ETs.
>
> >>> Theory (for those that might be interested) <<
>
> Based on Thevenin's theorem.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thevenin's_theorem
>
> The load resistance must equal the Thevenin resistance of
> the source for maximum power transfer. When this is true, the load
> voltage equals 1/2 of the open-circuit voltage of the source.
>
> http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_10/11.html
>
> See, I don't just make this stuff up. ;^)
>
> Bill Dube'
>
> At 08:02 AM 7/5/2006, you wrote:
> ><big snip>
> >
> >(2) Strong as they are, I'm close to extracting the max possible
> >power from the battery pack. According to the graphs Mark Farver
> >made off Zilla info, at the beginning of a run, each 12V battery
> >falls to about 8.2V at 1000 amps giving about 246 kw (330 hp) of
> >initial power. Near the end of the 12 second run, each battery has
> >fallen as low as 5.5V with the pack making just 165 kw of power (221 hp).
>
Mike Ellis wrote:
> Rod,
>
> Does this video exist anywhere?
I made a DVD from a VHS tape that John Wayland had... send me a message
off list.
Mark Farver
I thought you might all like to know about this:
http://www.gowheel.com/evDaytona_motorcycle.html If only I could learn more
about computers in order create world record breaking electrics. Heck, I end
up doing it the hard way by having to go out to the shop. It just seems like
sitting behind a computer would be so much easier :-) For your information
the still standing land speed record for an electric motorcycle at
Bonneville Salt Flats is 165.367 MPH set in 1974 by Mike Corbin.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.9/382 - Release Date: 7/4/2006
Roger Stockton wrote:
>> 7. People will pay on the order of $6500 - $12,000 for a
>>conversion, depending on what it is.
>>
>>
>
>I think this is extremely optimistic. I believe that conversions
>typically sell for significantly less... usually less than the cost of
>the components used to convert them. Very few people are willing to pay
>the $10-15k that it costs to have a turn-key conversion of the vehicle
>of their choice built professionally for them.
>
>
>
I would not be surprised if people will pay 12-15k more for branded
conversion. People are paying several thousand dollars extra for
hybrids knowing that the fuel savings will likely never pay back.
Not all used EVs sell for bargin prices: US Electriccar and Solectria
conversions generally sell for very respectable prices on the used
markets. The buyer wants to know the car will be reliable and will not
require a lot of work, same as when buying a used ICE. Custom
conversions done is someone's garage vary widely in quality. Personally
I would pay a great deal more for a new or secondhand conversion built
by (for example) Wayland, FT or Rev Gadget, since I know the quality of
their work.
The other problem is financing, very few people purchase cars with
cash. Buying a $7000 used one off conversion is something I could maybe
do with some disciplined saving. Buying a brand new conversion for
$20-30k in cash is impossible. The conversion company would be wise to
offer financing with their product and valuation information on used
vehicles.
Additionally most car buyers shop monthly cost.... so EVs could be very
competitive if they leverage their higher reliablilty to offer longer
loan terms. RV's for example are semi-custom conversions and would be
prohibitively expensive for most buyers, but 10 year and more financing
makes them affordable. They have longer livespans (in theory) since
they get light use. (In reality the build quality and maintenence is so
poor many only last a few years, leaving their owners in deeper debt)
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <roderick@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 6:19 PM
Subject: NEDRA to attend RPM Show at Indy
>
> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:
>
> CONTACT:
> Roderick Wilde
> Marketing Director
> National Electric Drag Racing Association (NEDRA)
> Phone: 360-385-7082
> Fax: 360-582-1272
> roderick@...
> www.nedra.com
>
> NEDRA to attend RPM Show at Indy.
>
> Indianapolis, Indiana, August 30th through September 1st The National
> Electric Drag Racing Association (NEDRA) has been invited to the first
ever
> RPM Trade Show http://www.aera.org/rpm/attend/index.html to be held at The
> Indiana Convention Center sponsored by the Automotive Engine Rebuilders
> Association (AERA). They will have a booth along with the well established
> National Electric Hot Rod Association (NHRA) and the relatively new Diesel
> Hot Rod Association (DHRA). Keynote Speakers will include Shirley
Muldowney,
> four-time World Champion Top Fuel Driver and Don Schumacher, owner of the
> U.S. Army Top Fuel dragster. There will be a roundtable discussion
including
> John Force, Don Prudhomme, Hillary Will and Cory McClenathan. This event
is
> being held in conjunction with The Mac Tools US Nationals,
>
http://www.nhra.com/apcm/templates/preview.asp?articleid=2442&zoneid=90&navsourc\
e=18
> In addition there will be an E85 ethanol performance competition. NEDRA is
> looking forward to presenting world class electric drag racing to the
> public. "Plasma Boy"John Wayland's famous Datsun drag car "White Zombie"
> will be on display at the NEDRA booth.
>
> ABOUT NEDRA - NEDRA, The National Electric Drag Racing Association is an
> educational organization that exists to increase public awareness of
> electric vehicle (EV) performance and to encourage through competition,
> advances in electric vehicle technology. NEDRA achieves this by organizing
> and sanctioning safe, silent and exciting electric vehicle drag racing
> events.
>
> -END-
>
> Hi EVerybody;
This means that 'Woodburn" at PIR is a no show for the Labor day
weakend? Will"Woodburn " run another weak? I guess Zombie will do more good
at Indy? John gunna be there to show itoff, do a few breakstands? with the
new diffy? So, NEDRA gunna reschedule "Woodburn"?
Seeya
Bob
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.9/382 - Release Date: 7/4/2006
>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chet Fields" <chetfields@...>
To: "EV List" <ev@...>
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 5:52 PM
Subject: Hosing down batteries
> I have read several references now to hosing down flooded batteries to
clean
> off the acid spray buildup. When this is done, do the interconnect cables
need
> to be removed? What stops the batteries from shorting out while this is
done?
> Or is this not a concern?
>
> Chet
>
> _ Hi Chet an' EVerybody;
Been hosing down Led acid Golf Cart batteries for YEARS, no problems. I
usually pik a sunny day and wash everything down with the hose and a paint
brush for cleaning, if needed. As this is a often done part of my
maintainence regimin_, things are pretty clean, before hand. But I built my
battery boxes, not as 'Boxes" per say, but open racks that water will go
through.This I did so I could wash down the batteries, and for ventalation,
helps cool things in the summer. On the down side I live with half my range
when it is COLD, like below 30 degreez.
My two cells worth;
Bob
They state: "New technology battery packs charge much faster and last longer
than lithium-ion."
I wonder if I can get some of these for my car?
--- Roderick Wilde <roderick@...> wrote:
> I thought you might all like to know about this:
> http://www.gowheel.com/evDaytona_motorcycle.html If only I could learn more
> about computers in order create world record breaking electrics. Heck, I end
> up doing it the hard way by having to go out to the shop. It just seems like
> sitting behind a computer would be so much easier :-) For your information
> the still standing land speed record for an electric motorcycle at
> Bonneville Salt Flats is 165.367 MPH set in 1974 by Mike Corbin.
>
> Roderick Wilde
> "Suck Amps EV Racing"
> www.suckamps.com
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.9/382 - Release Date: 7/4/2006
>
>
Hey John,
I gotta say I'm surprised it didn't turn out differently, but man, what a
fun night that must have been! With White Zombie consistently running low
12s at over 100 mph and the electric drag bike saving face and putting on an
impressive show there must have been quite a few people reevaluating their
perception of EVs.
I definitely feel your pain with the vibration issue. That's been an
intermittent problem for me as well. Sometimes it's painfully obvious, only
to disappear, then rear its ugly head again some other day. I'm pretty
confident mine is largely due to inappropriate geometry, since I didn't
devote enough attention to that when I was mounting the motors. I'm afraid I
may see some similar mechanical failures in the future; I hope yours don't
keep you out of commission for long.
Now I hope you feel very proud of yourself for teasing us all with "Part 1"
and no "Part 2" and references to spectacular video but no gratifying
updates to http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/videos.php. You've had your fun.
More, please.
Matt Graham
300V "Joule Injected" Nissan
http://www.jouleinjected.com
Hobe Sound, FL
-----Original Message-----
From: John Wayland [mailto:jw@...]
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 10:02 AM
To: ev@...
Subject: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)
Hello to All,
What a great night of electric drag racing Friday night was! No, White
Zombie did not achieve the goal of busting into the 11s, but the night was
still a big one as far as advancing the notion that electrics are nothing to
laugh at anymore. Many of my EV friends came to take in the excitement. Of
course, the usual suspects were there...Marko Mongillo, Rich Rudman down
from way up north in Washington state, and Damon Henry (also from Washington
across the river) who once again arrived on his NiCad powered electric
motorcycle. In addition to these guys, we were also accompanied by Steve
Kiser and Duane Gergich who brought their electric drag bike down from
Washington. Many from the OEVA (Oregon Electric Vehicle Association) gang
came too...Greg, Gary, Jay and others I'm sure I've forgotten, and many of
my forklift wrench work buddies came, too. Members of my family also showed
up. I appreciate all the support!
Man, those 11's are hard to get! White Zombie did the usual job of stunning
those unfamiliar with today's level of electric car performance, and yes, I
toasted a built El Camino muscle car, beat another muscle car, beat a 12
second 4 wheel drive turboed Sube ricer, and held my own (but lost) with two
pro stock cars, but nope, no 11-anything...just low 12's. I guess having an
electric street legal sedan that 'only' runs 12.3 @ 100+ mph consistently
(all 5 runs were
100+ mph, with the average at 103 mph) aint all that bad :-) Still,
being honest in my assessment, I failed to hit my goal. No excuses this
time. Absolutely perfect weather, good (not great) track conditions, a fully
charged and fully heated up battery pack, and ultra-fast recharge
turn-around times were all on hand setting the stage for 11's, but it wasn't
o be.
There are, however, two reasons that seem to be validation for why the car
seems to have hit another performance wall.
(1) As Tim reported to me on the 2nd pass the only other time we've been
able to make runs at PIR this year (we got rained out after the third run
back in early June), that old bugaboo vibration issue is back...BIG TIME.
The car accelerates like crazy, with a great 60 ft. time and a strong 1/8th
mile time, but at between approximately 90 - 100 mph the vibration begins
and ramps up so strong, it feels like the car is going to shake apart. The
acceleration simply ceases as the car's power appears to be totally absorbed
by the vibration. Then, after what seems to be maybe two l-o-n-g seconds,
suddenly the vibration vanishes, the car becomes turbine smooth again, and
it resumes a fairly decent pull as the speed goes higher again where the car
gains those extra 3-4 mph to where the trap speed comes out at 103-104 mph.
If the vibration wasn't there and those two seconds of stalled acceleration
were replaced with mild continued high mph acceleration, it's pretty clear
to me after driving the car, that the average ET of 12.3 @ 103-104 mph would
have dropped into high 11's @ 107-108 mph. Oh well, that wasn't the case
Friday night :-(
I suspect we've cracked the Ford nine inch casting again :-( The
instantaneous torque from the Siamese 8 fed with 2000 amps off line is huge,
and the series-to-parallel shift also at 2000 amps around 80 mph is also
brutal. In fact, on the last run Friday night, the car broke traction at the
shift-over point bad enough that the rear end got loose and the rear tires
squealed and chirped with wisps of smoke coming off both tires (video
captured)....this, at near 80 mph! I also noticed lots of extra 'noises'
from the rear end that got worse as the night went on...not good! The last
rebuild of the rear end revealed that we had been dealing with pinion
bearing wobble due to a full split across the casting of the massive rear
end, and that this was the source of the vibration issue. After another
perfect condition 9 inch casting was found, a pro Ford nine inch rebuilder
installed a new Richmond Gear set, all new bearings, etc., and the vibration
was totally gone. Now, it's back :-( Guess I'm gonna be pulling the rear end
out soon to see what's up.
(2) After repeated hard runs and fast recharges, the pack got so hot that
touching the aluminum case nearly burned my hand. The last run of the night
vented the batteries and lifted the pop-on top covers on several. No
squirting liquid and no pooled electrolyte, but they did vent and make a
very light fog that lasted maybe 30 seconds on the inside of the Lexan
compartment cover. This model battery is rated at
925 amps for 5 seconds, and I'm pulling 1000 amps for an average of double
that amount of time, so the batteries are performing well above their specs.
With the vibration halting top end acceleration and with very hot
stressed-out batteries, I made the decision after 5 strong runs to cut my
losses and stop racing for the night to save the pack. Four days after the
races, all the batteries measure good and the pack rests at 390V, the same
it usually does at 75-80 degrees. If any damage was done, it seems to be
minimal, so I'm glad I didn't keep punishing the pack.
Conclusions...
(1) Until I can fix the problem and eliminate the vibration, I don't think
the car is going to hit the 11's...it simply robs too much power.
(2) Strong as they are, I'm close to extracting the max possible power from
the battery pack. According to the graphs Mark Farver made off Zilla info,
at the beginning of a run, each 12V battery falls to about 8.2V at 1000 amps
giving about 246 kw (330 hp) of initial power. Near the end of the 12 second
run, each battery has fallen as low as 5.5V with the pack making just 165 kw
of power (221 hp).
I'm rethinking the current stack of 30, 26 ahr, 24 lb. Hawker Aerobatteries.
I remember back to 2000 when I ran a 378 lb. 336V pack of the half-sized
Hawker 16 EP models, 16 ahr 13.5 lb. little bricks of power that could
deliver 750 amps during low 13 second runs, over, and over. At 750 amps each
battery would sag to ~6.9V (going off analog gauges in the car). A double
string of 30 of these for 60 total batteries would make a 360V pack that
weighs about 90 lbs. more. This pack would sag less than the current packs
does at 1000 amps, while cranking out a whopping 1500 battery amps! Assuming
a conservative 6.5V per battery of initial sag, the pack would kneel to 195V
at 1500 amps for 295 kw (395 hp) of power giving 65 more hp than the current
pack of
26 ahr batteries do. It's possible that the overly beefy intercell straps
inside the smaller 16 ahr models contain heating under high loads better
than the larger 26 ahr units the car currently has. Back when we were racing
in the 90's, the earliest versions of the 16 ahr batteries would fuse open
their internal cell straps. After sending destroyed batteries to Hawker
engineers, they redesigned the batteries with beefier straps...cool. Perhaps
the strapping of the bigger 26 ahr models aren't as proportionately beefy,
and with 1000 amps passing through them (250 amps more than when using their
smaller batteries) the inter-cell straps are a limiting factor...they
probably get pretty hot inside the battery. This would explain the rapid
heat build-up and subsequent venting. On the flip side, it's also possible
that with the vibration eliminated and thus the power robbing issue gone,
the car might just crack the 11's with the current pack. No decision has
been made here, I'm just blabbing my thoughts...
OK, enough post racing analysis...on with the fun parts.
The big show of the night came from Steve Kiser and Duane Gergich with their
electric drag bike. Formerly Father Time's 'Dragon Rose', at the Sept. '04
Woodburn drags with Duane doing the driving, this gorgeous 156V bike set a
NEDRA world record for the MT/D class when it ran an impressive 12.497 @
100.7 mph! Steve and Duane now own the bike and have it in pristine
condition these days, with lustrous cherry red paint and the thing detailed
to the max...it's beautiful to look at! They had it on display at the June
24th SEVA Gasless on Greenwood car show, where I brow beat them, shamed
them, and downright taunted them into bring the machine south to Portland to
join me for Friday night electric drag racing.
I had written:
> As a bonus for EV racing fans, Duane Gergich and Steve Kiser will be
joining us with their Father Time-built outrageous drag bike > that has run
12.4 @ 100 mph. I twisted their arms yesterday at the SEVA Greenwood car
show.
Well, came they did!
The bike's now nearly 5 year old Hawker batteries, 13 of the little 13 ahr
models that weigh just 10.5 lbs. each, had sat un-charged and un-loved for
the past 1.5 years since the record was set...argghh! Yet, after being
charged, driven on, and charged a few times the batteries shed their
sulfation and flexed their electro-chemical muscles and made some serious
power! Can you say 12.5 @ 100 mph? Can you say that, twice?
Before these two great runs though, Duane had a tough time getting his act
together :-) His first run netted an embarrassing 63 mph at 14
seconds....wait...how do you only get 63 mph with a 14 second run?
Easy...you get confused and let off the throttle at the 1/8th mile marker!
Boy, we had Duane hanging his head in shame over this one, and a certain
Plasma Boy took advantage of the moment and really rubbed it in.
Duane took it in stride and laughed along with the rest of us (at himself),
then turned around and stuck it to everybody! After the track announcer told
everyone there was an electric motorcycle in the burnout pit, Duane decided
to shut up the snickers over a 63 mph motorcycle, and with Steve out on
track setting up the burnout perfectly with staging help, he gave a dramatic
go-ahead hand motion, signaling Duane to do the most scorching bike burnout
I've ever seen! It was awesome.
I had also written:
> I can hardly wait to see the crowd's reaction to their quick very red
electric bike with it's BIG electric motor clearly visible, and the fat
>drag slick and long wheelie bar extension making quite statement.
>
The crowd indeed, went nuts cheering and hooting. Then, after expending a
lot of power into the burnout, Duane made the Hawkers puke out even more
power and jammed the bike down the track running a 12.8 second blast!
Hawkers rock! Yeah, this wiped away all those snickers! After that run, came
the 12.5 second 100 mph runs back to back...very impressive for a
non-advanced 8 inch ADC motor, just 156V worth of 5 year old Hawkers, and a
Raptor controller. Imagine the motor properly advanced, 192V of brand new
Hawkers, and a Zilla Z1K? Can you say 11's?
How 'bout 300+V of hi current LiIons, a Zilla, and the same motor prepped by
Jim Husted? Can you say 'Hello, Bill Dube?"
Much of the credit for the bike's strong showing has to go to Madman Rudman,
as he had charging the bike down, big time! After I had argued with him
about getting us all hooked into the AC mains at the track so I could shut
off the damn stink'n generator in the back of my service truck, and after he
found a maintenance shack where the power pigtail box equipped with the Cam
Lok connectors was stored, and after he made a special run to a local home
improvement type store to get more electrical parts, he had us wired! Gone
was the noise and stink, replaced with silent and abundant AC power! Using
my PFC50x, during Zombie recharging, ~12 kw of power was rapidly sent into
the hungry pack, 29.8 amps @ 401V, and the turn-around time was about 7
minutes...every bit as good as I used to get with a dump charge pack!
Madman repeatedly charged the bike up to 80% in 3 minutes and it was fully
charged and ready to run again in 5 scant minutes...a 5 minute turn-around!
Of course, the mighty Hawkers simply took in the power, dished it out, then
took it in again...remember, they are nearly 5 years old, and sat for 1.5
years uncharged and unused...incredible batteries!
Did I say, Hawkers rock?
Back to White Zombie...The night was bitter sweet, with the first run one of
the most exciting, for sure. Normally, the first run comes in at around 13
flat, with the second run a high 12, then subsequent runs getting quicker as
the battery pack heats up. Friday started off much better though. For the
first attempt, White Zombie was lined up next to a very loud V8 muscle car,
a green Chevy El Camino with a built 350 cid V8. This bad ass machine had
fat drag slicks in back and its heavily cammed V8 lumped and thumped at idle
in true muscle car fashion. At the burnout pits the Chevy did a ferocious
burnout that had the crowd's attention immediately...all the while I drove
around the water pit and waited for him to end his testosterone fueled
display of power. I had figured that with a wimpy first run going to be in
the low 13s, why bother to do a burnout? The El Camino driver was serving
notice that the little 'ol Datsun next to him was going to get blown away,
and he was jabbing the throttle making the car jump...the car acted much
like a bull does as he snorts and claws the dirt. The best part, is that
this whole showdown was captured by a professional camera crew that had come
down from Seattle to do a special on 'White Zombie vs the muscle cars'.
I had previously written:
> there was a reporter/camera crew covering the Greenwood EVent....the
reporter/camera crew are heading to Portland to film both >electrics running
against the gassers this Friday, and to hopefully capture White Zombie
cracking the 11s.
So, why were these guys so pumped about coming to the drags to get this on
tape? It goes back to the Seattle car show on June 24th. The interview guy
is a hoot, and goes by the nickname 'Pixel'. Pixel had talked with me about
having seen both the 'Sucking Amps' show featuring Rod Wilde, his crew, and
'Gone Postal', and the 'Monster Garage episode featuring the build crew that
included Mad Man Rudman and Shawn Lawless.
He commented that for him it was disappointing that in both shows, the
electrics didn't actually win their races and that cool as they were, in the
end they underperformed for this reason or that, and they got beat by the
gas cars. He then said to me, "So, you actually 'win' races against the
gassers?" I said, "Sure, I beat them all the time. I also loose to them as
well. There's always faster cars. But in general, White Zombie is very
competitive with the cars it runs against, and it wins more than loses the
heads up matches it gets into." Pixel then said, "Cool, then the world needs
to see this. There needs to be a show where the electric beats the gas cars.
Note....I'm not trying to diss any of my EV buddies or their hard earned
accomplishments here, these comments are direct quotes from Pixel.
Back to the track....Frankly, I was a bit concerned that this first battle
might not turn out so great for the cameras, as the El Camino 'did' sound
and look as if it could kick my Datsun's butt. I would later hear that some
of the younger dudes who knew my car had put their money on the Zombie. We
staged as the announcer told everyone that the little white Datsun was an
electric car. Then the tree's lights sequenced down...yellow, yellow,
yellow....FLOOR the ACCELERATOR!!!!....Green.....Wheels lift, nose in the
air, my neck snapped back, and the race was on! The El Camino's V8 roared
and shook my guts, but the sound faded as he couldn't stay with the Zombie.
The run felt strong and the Zombie pulled hard, then the parallel up shift
happened accompanied by a brief rear end swing as the drag radials broke
loose then grabbed. I could still hear the El Camino at full boil, but I
could also see him in my rear view mirror :-) The best part for me, is that
this poor muscle head dude had to read the 'SUCK AMPS' plastered across the
Zombie's rear window all the way down the track as he was getting whupped by
a little 'ol tin can Datsun (as Rudman calls it) with a bunch of batteries!
The finish line reader boards said it all....El Camino 13.091 @ 100.75 mph -
White Zombie 12.524 @ 101.76 mph, all captured by a professional film crew!
Never, had White Zombie been driven to the track to run a mid 12 out of the
box...an incredible first run for the night, and we were all convinced the
car was poised to rip into the 11s. Of course, it felt great knowing the
camera crew had already got what they came for....filming an electric car
take on and beat muscle cars.
To be continued....
See Ya.....John Wayland
>
Mark Farver wrote:
> I would not be surprised if people will pay 12-15k more for branded
> conversion. People are paying several thousand dollars extra for
> hybrids knowing that the fuel savings will likely never pay back.
They are paying a few thousand more, not $10k+ more, and perhaps a
larger difference is that a few thousand is a fraction of the cost of a
new car while the $10K EV premium is anywhere from a few to many times
the full cost of the same car in ICE trim (a quick online search
suggests a 2nd gen (96-99) Taurus should sell in the $1.4-5.6K range).
If it costs $10-15K to do a professional conversion (and make some sort
of profit), how many people will really line up to pay up to $20K for a
used Taurus just because it is electric?
Also, a recent article/study by the local AA found that hybrids are
actually now a sound investment as they will payback in a reasonable
amount of time (admittedly greatly assisted by the various incentives
associated with a hybrid purchase):
<http://autos.canada.com/news/vancouver_province_story.html?id=1b98616d-
b22e-4092-a3da-637364d97d46>
> Not all used EVs sell for bargin prices: US Electriccar and Solectria
> conversions generally sell for very respectable prices on the used
> markets.
Ah, but these aren't actually "conversions"; these are vehicles that
were sold brand new as electric. At the time they were converted, they
were brand new, current year produciton vehicles. This is distinctly
different from trying to sell someone a 15year old Metro with 100K on
the clock that has just been professionally converted to electric and
must fetch $10-15K above the cost of the same car in ICE trim in order
for the converter to make ends meet.
My first EV was a 1980 Dodge Omni that was converted professionally and
sold new as an electric car. When I bought it (1999, I believe), it had
something like 4000mi on the clock and mechanically was in mint
condition. Even so, I paid a pittance for it (usual story, batteries
not included, etc.), however, I firmly believe that there is compelling
evidence that a factory EV such as this or a Solectria will always fetch
a higher price than a similar condition/quality conversion of the same
model.
> The other problem is financing, very few people purchase cars with
> cash.
> The conversion company would be wise to offer financing with their
> product and valuation information on used vehicles.
Yes, I think you have a good point here.
> Additionally most car buyers shop monthly cost.... so EVs
> could be very competitive if they leverage their higher
> reliablilty to offer longer loan terms.
I'm not so sure about this beyond the buyer considering the
affordability of the lease/loan payments, but even assuming it is
accurate, I would question the reality of the higher reliability of EVs
in the hands of the general public.
Historically, EVs have ended up for sale shortly after the first or
second battery pack failure. There are better charging options
available now that can help address this issue, however, they cost money
and they still can't compensate for a lack of basic maintenance or abuse
on the part of the end user. To truly realise the reliability we
associate with EVs, some sort of BMS is required to protect the pack
from abuse and inform the user that service is required. I am not aware
of any such system at this time.
Cheers,
Roger.
EV Digest 5625
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Hacked Old Mail Truck
by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
2) Re: DC Motor torque calculations, choosing accessory motor
by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
3) Anyone else wanna get postal?
by cowtown@...
4) hybrid payback (was Re: Taurus EV)
by "damon henry" <damonhenry@...>
5) Re: Danny's Contentment
by "Mike Phillips" <mikep_95133@...>
6) Re: Taurus EV
by "Mike Phillips" <mikep_95133@...>
7) Re: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
by "Rich Rudman" <rmanzan@...>
8) Re: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)
by "Rich Rudman" <rmanzan@...>
9) Re: Taurus EV
by "Rich Rudman" <rmanzan@...>
10) Re: NEDRA to attend RPM Show at Indy "Woodburn at PIR?"???
by "Roy LeMeur" <roylemeur@...>
11) RE: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
by "Roger Stockton" <rstockton@...>
12) RE: Taurus EV
by "Roger Stockton" <rstockton@...>
13) Re: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)
by Mark Farver <mfarver@...>
14) Re: Taurus EV
by Mark Farver <mfarver@...>
15) Re: Taurus EV
by "Mike Phillips" <mikep_95133@...>
16) Re: micro-monorail project needs tech input
by Danny Miller <dannym@...>
17) Re: Taurus EV
by Mark Farver <mfarver@...>
18) Re: Air conditioning gains
by Eric Poulsen <eric@...>
19) Re: Air conditioning gains
by Danny Miller <dannym@...>
20) RE: Taurus EV
by "Roger Stockton" <rstockton@...>
21) Re: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
by "Paul Compton" <paul@...>
22) Re: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)
by "Paul G." <paul-g@...>
23) RE: Taurus EV
by "Peter Shabino" <wireb@...>
24) RE: e-volks
by "David Sherritze" <sherritze@...>
25) Re: Comparing batteries - was Re: Valence Technology Batteries
by Chris Jones <chris_b_jones@...>
26) Re: micro-monorail project needs tech input
by Lawrence Harris <lharris@...>
27) Re: Comparing batteries - was Re: Valence Technology Batteries
by Danny Miller <dannym@...>
28) RE: Taurus EV
by "Roger Stockton" <rstockton@...>
Roderick Wilde wrote:
> Lee, I have often fantasized about a hot rod City Car being the ultimate
> sleeper on the street. Any Vette blown away by one would have a hard time
> living it down. Of course it would have the words "Electric Car" very big on
> the sides, the front and the rear. You would have room enough to run a high
> voltage string of Hawker 16 amp/hr batteries. You could get a narrowed 9"
> Ford from a Taylor Dunn golf cart. These are so narrow they would allow for
> a tubbed type rear with the rear tires almost touching each other on the
> inner sides of the tires. Since it is so light you would not need a
> transmission. Hey Lee, when are we going to get started on yours :-)
I've never been a racing fan, let alone a drag racer. But it's still fun
to fantasize.
The extreme simplicity, light weight, and strength of the CitiCar frame
does lend itself to a racing version. Rick Woodbury's Tango provides a
glimpse of what one could do with the right parts!
Of course, little would actually be left of the original CitiCar in an
all-out racing version. Probably a new steel pipe frame, with the old
CitiCar plastic body panels on it, and all new running gear.
I sold my old ComutaVan, but think it would have made a better
candidate. It's basically a "stretch" version of the CitiCar. The longer
wheelbase and front battery box would make it easier to keep the front
wheels on the ground. It had a normal rear axle, drive shaft, and front
mounted transmission and motor, too.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
Dave Cover wrote:
> I'm looking to run my AC and power steering off an accessory motor.
> I have two separate loads cycling independently off one motor. If I
> know the max power I need (both AC and power steering running) what
> is the best motor/controller for the job? Is there a type of DC
> motor that, if I supply it the right voltage, will run at a specific
> speed (maybe 1500 rpm) and try to hold that speed under load?
Yes; a PM motor runs at a speed set by the applied voltage. The speed is
directly proportional to voltage. For instance, a PM motor rated at
"120vdc 1200rpm" might only vary from 1000 rpm (heavy load) to 1400 rpm
(no load). If you cut the voltage in half, it runs exactly half as fast.
> Do I need a PWM controller and some kind of governor?
A PWM controller is an efficient way to vary the motor voltage, and thus
its speed. It can also provide current limiting, which will keep you
from burning up the motor if the load is too heavy.
But, you can also do it with a shunt motor and field control. The
armature runs right off your pack voltage. The field is powered from the
pack thru a rheostat. The value of resistance sets the field current,
which sets the rpm. At any given rheostat setting, it acts just like a
PM motor -- rpm is directly related to armature voltage. But in this
case, you can adjust the field to change the speed. This method is also
quite efficient, but shunt motors of appropriate size are harder to
find.
You won't need a speed sensor or governor unless you use a series motor.
A series motor's speed varies widely with load, so you have to sense its
speed and control it.
> I'd also like to shut off the accessory motor if neither the AC nor
> power steering are in use.
Sure, that makes sense.
> PS I have a treadmill motor I'd love to use, just not sure how to control it.
They are usually PM motors. It will work, but many are very cheap and
poorly made.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>I would not be surprised if people will pay 12-15k more for branded
>conversion. People are paying several thousand dollars extra for hybrids
>knowing that the fuel savings will likely never pay back.
I guess it depends on your idea of payback. My Insight has 93K miles on it
over the last 5 years. I bought it for $19000. All my other cars are lucky
to get 20 mpg my Insight has averaged just under 57mpg over it's life.
Using nice round numbers to keep the math simple.
Other cars 100,000 miles / 20 mpg = 5000 gallons of gas X $2.50 = $12,500
spent on gas.
My Insight 100,000 miles / 50 mpg = 2000 gallons of gas X $2.50 = $5000
spent on gas.
So over the last 5 years my $19000 car has saved me roughly $7000. You
can't convince me that driving a hybrid does not payoff. Granted, there are
some cars out there that you can buy for $12,000, but they are usually cheap
stripped down models, not engineering marvels like the Insight.
Of course, I didn't buy the Insight for the savings in gas, I bought it
because of it's squeeky clean emmisions and low (relative to other cars)
environmental impact. The savings is an added feature. Even if gas dropped
back to 99 cents a gallon I would be happy that I have my Insight.
damon
Very nicely done. We are so in the stone age over here.
Mike
--- In ev-list-archive@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Ellis" <ev@...> wrote:
>
> http://www.dannyscontentment.net/dannys_contentment/
>
> Danny in London is video blogging his experiences driving an electric
> car (a little Indian built thing (rEV?))
>
> -Mike
>
Yep! The most incredible EV understatement ever!!!
Mike
To truly realise the reliability we
> associate with EVs, some sort of BMS is required to protect the pack
> from abuse and inform the user that service is required. I am not aware
> of any such system at this time.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
OOOo! not only does a bike that looks like it has pedal bike chain on it
have 214 mph limits.. wayafter it takes off I might add, it has whimpy
brakes... and it has Better than Lion batteries...
Like Rod says.. it's a lot easier to write add copy that to actually get
records and time slips the hard way..
Like Earning them...
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Cover" <davecover@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
> They state: "New technology battery packs charge much faster and last
longer than lithium-ion."
>
> I wonder if I can get some of these for my car?
>
> --- Roderick Wilde <roderick@...> wrote:
>
> > I thought you might all like to know about this:
> > http://www.gowheel.com/evDaytona_motorcycle.html If only I could learn
more
> > about computers in order create world record breaking electrics. Heck, I
end
> > up doing it the hard way by having to go out to the shop. It just seems
like
> > sitting behind a computer would be so much easier :-) For your
information
> > the still standing land speed record for an electric motorcycle at
> > Bonneville Salt Flats is 165.367 MPH set in 1974 by Mike Corbin.
> >
> > Roderick Wilde
> > "Suck Amps EV Racing"
> > www.suckamps.com
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this outgoing message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.9/382 - Release Date: 7/4/2006
> >
> >
>
There is a whole story about charging in EV charge heaven.
Sheesh! there's more power there than I have in my test bench at my shop.
More 240 three phase than a dozzen PFC50s could use.. Damn this is going
to be fun.
There will be NO excuses about charging at the Late Night Nationals at
Portland international Speedway. There will be at least 6 50 amp 240 volt
ports, or more.
Keep in mind with 2 50 amp outlets Joe and I can charge most of the Ev Racer
groups all by ourselves.
If your batteries are not over heating and... just plain over used by the
end of the night... You won't have tried very hard.
Bring it, I will charge it.
Wire your charge port so I can stuff 12000 watts of what ever you need into
your car.
Story when I have time..
Madman
> Now I hope you feel very proud of yourself for teasing us all with "Part
1"
> and no "Part 2" and references to spectacular video but no gratifying
> updates to http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/videos.php. You've had your fun.
>
> More, please.
>
> Matt Graham
> 300V "Joule Injected" Nissan
> http://www.jouleinjected.com
> Hobe Sound, FL
> To be continued....
>
> See Ya.....John Wayland
>
>
>
> >
>
Funny I know of about 1/2 dozzen...
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Phillips" <mikep_95133@...>
To: "Roger Stockton" <ev@...>
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 1:27 PM
Subject: Re: Taurus EV
> Yep! The most incredible EV understatement ever!!!
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
> To truly realise the reliability we
> > associate with EVs, some sort of BMS is required to protect the pack
> > from abuse and inform the user that service is required. I am not aware
> > of any such system at this time.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Roger.
> >
>
>
>
>
Bob Rice wrote:
>This means that 'Woodburn" at PIR is a no show for the Labor day
>weakend? Will"Woodburn " run another weak? I guess Zombie will do more good
>at Indy? John gunna be there to show itoff, do a few breakstands? with the
>new diffy? So, NEDRA gunna reschedule "Woodburn"?
Hi Bob
The Late Night Nationals at PIR are 8/25 and 8/26.
The RPM Trade Show is 8/30, 8/31, and 9/1.
The White Zombie (and possibly Dragon Rose) will be at both.
The current plan is to leave PIR (Portland OR) for the trade show
(Indianapolis IN) after the last run on 8/26.
No... seriously, that IS the plan :^D
John will not be there, the plan is currently FT and me.
On 7/6/06, Bob Rice <bobrice@...> wrote:
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Roderick Wilde" <roderick@...>
>To: <ev@...>
>Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 6:19 PM
>Subject: NEDRA to attend RPM Show at Indy
>
>
> >
> > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:
> >
> > CONTACT:
> > Roderick Wilde
> > Marketing Director
> > National Electric Drag Racing Association (NEDRA)
> > Phone: 360-385-7082
> > Fax: 360-582-1272
> > roderick@...
> > www.nedra.com
> >
> > NEDRA to attend RPM Show at Indy.
> >
> > Indianapolis, Indiana, August 30th through September 1st The National
> > Electric Drag Racing Association (NEDRA) has been invited to the first
>ever
> > RPM Trade Show http://www.aera.org/rpm/attend/index.html to be held at
>The
> > Indiana Convention Center sponsored by the Automotive Engine Rebuilders
> > Association (AERA). They will have a booth along with the well
>established
> > National Electric Hot Rod Association (NHRA) and the relatively new
>Diesel
> > Hot Rod Association (DHRA). Keynote Speakers will include Shirley
>Muldowney,
> > four-time World Champion Top Fuel Driver and Don Schumacher, owner of
>the
> > U.S. Army Top Fuel dragster. There will be a roundtable discussion
>including
> > John Force, Don Prudhomme, Hillary Will and Cory McClenathan. This event
>is
> > being held in conjunction with The Mac Tools US Nationals,
> >
>http://www.nhra.com/apcm/templates/preview.asp?articleid=2442&zoneid=90&navsour\
ce=18
> > In addition there will be an E85 ethanol performance competition. NEDRA
>is
> > looking forward to presenting world class electric drag racing to the
> > public. "Plasma Boy"John Wayland's famous Datsun drag car "White Zombie"
> > will be on display at the NEDRA booth.
> >
> > ABOUT NEDRA - NEDRA, The National Electric Drag Racing Association is an
> > educational organization that exists to increase public awareness of
> > electric vehicle (EV) performance and to encourage through competition,
> > advances in electric vehicle technology. NEDRA achieves this by
>organizing
> > and sanctioning safe, silent and exciting electric vehicle drag racing
> > events.
> >
> > -END-
> >
> > Hi EVerybody;
>
> This means that 'Woodburn" at PIR is a no show for the Labor day
>weakend? Will"Woodburn " run another weak? I guess Zombie will do more good
>at Indy? John gunna be there to show itoff, do a few breakstands? with the
>new diffy? So, NEDRA gunna reschedule "Woodburn"?
>
> Seeya
>
> Bob
> >
> > --
...
Roy LeMeur
NEDRA Northwest Regional Race Director
My EV and RE Project Pages-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
Rich Rudman wrote:
> OOOo! not only does a bike that looks like it has pedal bike
> chain on it have 214 mph limits..
It looks like standard motorcycle chain to me...
> it has whimpy brakes...
Really? Twin 308mm front discs and a 220mm rear are right up there
performance wise. The fastest produciotn motorcycle (Suzuki Hayabusa)
has twin 320s up front and a 240 in the rear. Something more mundane
like the Zx6R[R] Ninjas have twin 300s up front and a single 220 in the
rear.
> Like Rod says.. it's a lot easier to write add copy that to
> actually get records and time slips the hard way..
First of all, they never said the bike would do 214mph in the 1/4 mile.
The world speed record may stand at 134-odd mph, yet the Killacycle has
exceeded 150mph in the 1/4mi.
Second of all, notice the $90k price tag for this puppy! If they were
making these claims for a $10k bike I would be very skeptical, but at
$90K I am far more willing to believe that they can afford the sort of
technology that might approach these sorts of performance claims. They
may still be way off on their performance claims (who knows if they've
actually built and tested a bike yet), but throwing that sort of money
at the problem I have little doubt they can provide a ride that will at
least achieve the same 150mph-ish top speeds as the (much less
expensive) Killacycle, though perhaps not in the 1/4 mile.
Cheers,
Roger.
Rich Rudman wrote:
> Funny I know of about 1/2 dozzen...
You must have much different BMS expectations than I do then. ;^>
If you know of at least 6 BMS systems suitable for on-road EVs that are
ready and available for commercial/retail purchase, how about naming
them?
Cheers,
Roger.
Rich Rudman wrote:
>Bring it, I will charge it.
>
>Wire your charge port so I can stuff 12000 watts of what ever you need into
>your car.
>
>
Might be wise to specify a style of connector. I think blue anderson
175 is currently your connector of choice?
Mark
Roger Stockton wrote:
>Rich Rudman wrote:
>
>
>
>>Funny I know of about 1/2 dozzen...
>>
>>
>
>You must have much different BMS expectations than I do then. ;^>
>
>
>
Ah, but was Rich commenting on 6 BMS systems, or 6 "EV understatements"
I can easily come up with EV understatements, but far less BMS systems
available commercially (especially ones that do not cost significantly
more that the rest of the conversion).
And Rudman regs don't count, the charger interface and integration is
still too much of a hack job. (Sorry Rich)
From my interviews with my conversion for hire customer and many "money
in hand" interested parties the market really needs a charger + BMS (or
battery with these things integrated) that has a simple user interface:
"start" switch,
"stop" switch
"charge complete" light
and a "battery requires service" light
A percent charge remaining indicator for the dash would be nice. Users
really don't want to go beyond that. (Looks at the OEM EVs)
Temp compensation, regulation, voltage setup, output current, etc should
be handled by the system (or the installer based on battery manufacturer
requirements). Input current should be set by the cord... ie plug in
the 240 3 prong dryer adapter cordset and the system limits to 30amps.
Plug in the 120VAC cordset and it backs down to 10 or 15 amps. The user
loses some flexibility and choice but it becomes "plug and go"
Ideally the system would be purchased with the battery and the battery
manufacturer would provide a respectable warrenty on the batteries based
on that.
Mark Farver
Dream on ....
Mike
--- In ev-list-archive@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Rudman" <ev@...> wrote:
>
> Funny I know of about 1/2 dozzen...
>
> Madman
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Phillips" <mikep_95133@...>
> To: "Roger Stockton" <ev@...>
> Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 1:27 PM
> Subject: Re: Taurus EV
>
>
> > Yep! The most incredible EV understatement ever!!!
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To truly realise the reliability we
> > > associate with EVs, some sort of BMS is required to protect the pack
> > > from abuse and inform the user that service is required. I am
not aware
> > > of any such system at this time.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Roger.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
The term is "funicular".
Danny
David Sofio wrote:
> I'm working on feasibility for a micro-monorail (NOT anything like an
> infrastructure project; it would be for maybe four adults, or a bunch of
> building material, etc) to get up some difficult terrain to places
> higher on
> my hillside property.
Roger Stockton wrote:
>Mark Farver wrote:
>
>
>
>>I would not be surprised if people will pay 12-15k more for branded
>>conversion. People are paying several thousand dollars extra for
>>hybrids knowing that the fuel savings will likely never pay back.
>>
>>
>
>They are paying a few thousand more, not $10k+ more, and perhaps a
>larger difference is that a few thousand is a fraction of the cost of a
>new car while the $10K EV premium is anywhere from a few to many times
>the full cost of the same car in ICE trim (a quick online search
>suggests a 2nd gen (96-99) Taurus should sell in the $1.4-5.6K range).
>If it costs $10-15K to do a professional conversion (and make some sort
>of profit), how many people will really line up to pay up to $20K for a
>used Taurus just because it is electric?
>
>
Few I would expect.. I agree wholeheartly that starting with a nearly
valueless "used" chassis is a not going to be a popular idea. Most of
the people with the disposible income to pay a steep "EV premium" for a
conversion are not going to want a "used" car. To most new car buyers
the difference between a $20,000 and a $30,000 car is mostly choice.
There is usually little on the car that justifies the cost difference
and it doesn't amke a huge difference on the monthly payments. Some
more chrome, better accessories, etc, none of which adds up to a $10k
premium. (Hence why the manufacturers really like selling SUVs and
luxury cars, they only cost slightly more to build, and have bigger
margins.)
IMHO if you want an EV conversion business to succeed you start with a
new car priced in the $15k-20k range. (I like the Mazda 3, but something
more mainstream like a Corolla/Camry might be better). You might not
be able to get the manufacturer to sell you a glider, but you can buy
the cars customized. When I talked to manufacturers about fleets I got
offers of below invoice pricing if I was purchasing more than 5 vehicles
a year and they offered many more customization options. (Couldn't get
them to remove the engine, for low volumes they still wanted to be able
to drive it off the line/transport).. they did say that they are setup
to delete most any item from the car, if I was willing to buy enough
vehicles.
Load the vehicles with the power options, leather interior, and alloy
wheels, and side curtain airbags. The stuff car buyers would expect in
a higher end car... get the cheap engine since you'll be recycling it
anyway. Convert it and sell the car as an EV for $29k... and you
probably be able to do a few hundred units.
Problem is I don't think you could do a conversion for $10k. You'd need
to get the conversion parts cost down to maybe half that ($5k). The
batteries and management system would blow that budget alone. Not to
mention motor and controller.
Mark Farver
Here in S. California, simply leaving the windows open a bit (0.5 to 1
inch) has a noticeable difference on the internal temperature of my
car. I'd imagine a small fan would help considerably. The problem is
that the _ambient_ temperature outside is pretty hot to begin with, so
even if you equalize the inside/outside temp, it's still pretty damn hot
in the car.
Also, my dark colored dashboard radiates considerable heat into the
vehicle. Seems that some kind of reflective cover would help in this
regard. So much so that I feel the heat off it even with the A/C going.
Not as bad as my old '60 Corvair -- had a plain metal dashboard that was
painted _black_ -- you could literally cook an egg on it. Of course,
that car didn't have any A/C anyway.
Danny Miller wrote:
> I've seen little solar window fans for a long time, they've been doing
> a lot of TV ads for one now.
>
> I have a hard time seeing that little thing moving enough air to keep
> the temp down. It's a little centrifugal blower, which was probably
> selected because it doesn't use a large outlet like a muffin fan so
> the window won't have to be open far and it won't let much rain.
>
> I did have one, but it had the solar cell on the inside of the window,
> which really was a bad idea with my window tint.
>
> In an EV, the solar power is not a necessary feature. There's enough
> battery power to run a fan for months, or the 12v aux battery can
> power it for days. If the solar panel's not enough output to justify
> putting one on to charge the main batteries (and it's not), then you
> really can't justify it for running loads either. Well it means you
> don't need to keep a DC/DC converter idling, and don't need to worry
> about wiring to it. But you're probably going to run off the 12v aux
> battery anyways, not off a DC/DC directly.
>
> I think the rain and/or theft potential is the big problem. It'd be
> nice to use the normal car AC vents with a buried fan to draw out the
> air, but it's not going to draw out the air from the higer points on
> the vehicle which are by far the bulk of the problem.
>
> Danny
>
> Jeff Shanab wrote:
>
>> Get a solar panel running a muffin fan that keeps the interior vented
>> while in a parking lot to reduce the build up of heat.
>>
>>
>
>
The sun's radiation also heats surfaces directly, and no airflow on the
order of a few muffin fans is going to bring it near ambient. Any
shades or better yet effective window coatings (if real, easy to make
bogus claims here) could be extremely beneficial.
It's be cool if you had a car remote that would activate a huge blower
to flush the vehicle's heat out shortly before you walked up to it. Bit
of a security risk to have it open the windows though.
Danny
Eric Poulsen wrote:
> Here in S. California, simply leaving the windows open a bit (0.5 to 1
> inch) has a noticeable difference on the internal temperature of my
> car. I'd imagine a small fan would help considerably. The problem is
> that the _ambient_ temperature outside is pretty hot to begin with, so
> even if you equalize the inside/outside temp, it's still pretty damn
> hot in the car.
>
> Also, my dark colored dashboard radiates considerable heat into the
> vehicle. Seems that some kind of reflective cover would help in this
> regard. So much so that I feel the heat off it even with the A/C
> going. Not as bad as my old '60 Corvair -- had a plain metal
> dashboard that was painted _black_ -- you could literally cook an egg
> on it. Of course, that car didn't have any A/C anyway.
Mark Farver wrote:
> Ah, but was Rich commenting on 6 BMS systems, or 6 "EV
> understatements"
Good point; I hadn't considered that possibility ;^>
> From my interviews with my conversion for hire customer and
> many "money in hand" interested parties the market really
> needs a charger + BMS (or battery with these things
> integrated) that has a simple user interface:
>
> "start" switch,
> "stop" switch
> "charge complete" light
> and a "battery requires service" light
>
> A percent charge remaining indicator for the dash would be
> nice. Users really don't want to go beyond that.
I think you've enumerated a good feature set.
> Temp compensation, regulation, voltage setup, output current,
> etc should be handled by the system (or the installer based
> on battery manufacturer requirements).
Agreed.
> Input current should be set by the cord... ie plug in the
> 240 3 prong dryer adapter cordset and the system limits
> to 30amps. Plug in the 120VAC cordset and it backs down to
> 10 or 15 amps.
Implied here is that the charger should be wide-range or universal
input. If you literally had the charger enforce a different current
limit based on the input cordset, then you wouldn't even need
auto-ranging, etc. but could simply flip a switch, etc. to tell the
charger the intended input voltage and to allow the appropriate cordset
to be plugged in. As I recall my old Lester provided two different
recessed male AC input connections, one for 120VAC and one for 240VAC,
and it was necessary to slide a cover to expose the desired connection
which automatically blocked off the other connection so that both could
not be connected to AC at the same time. It would have been
straightforward to incorporate a switch into this cover mechanism to
tell the charger which input current limit to enforce.
I'd suggest that the current limit be set based on the input voltage
detected rather than which cordset is used, but agree with the basic
priciple. Ideally, I would want the user/installer to be able to
configure the 120VAC and 240VAC current limits as appropriate for their
situation.
> Ideally the system would be purchased with the battery and
> the battery manufacturer would provide a respectable warrenty
> on the batteries based on that.
Even without an off-the-shelf BMS solution some battery manufacturers
will already offer better warranty terms based on use of an approved
charger with their batteries.
Cheers,
Roger.
> OOOo! not only does a bike that looks like it has pedal bike chain on it
> have 214 mph limits.. wayafter it takes off I might add, it has whimpy
> brakes... and it has Better than Lion batteries...
Come on Rich you know better than that! The chain looks like a 500 series
(5/8" pitch) which is big enough for a WSB machine. The brakes are over a
foot in diameter and are using radial mount calipers, so they're not too far
off state of the art (four pot is 'in' at the moment, stiffer than 6 pot).
It might be missleading to call them floating discs (too noisy for road use)
but they'll be semi floating.
I agree it's vapourware and it's not likely to get many takers at 90K. Looks
like an attempt at attracting investors.
Paul Compton
www.sciroccoev.co.uk
www.bvs.org.uk
www.morini-mania.co.uk
www.compton.vispa.com/the_named
On Jul 6, 2006, at 10:53 AM, Rich Rudman wrote:
> He is breaking his drive train with the torque slam on the start and
> at s/P.
> Most racers ...ie ICE driven racers can load the drive train until the
> Green
> light.. John can't because he has to bump up to the lights, and then
> the
> back lash is still loose when he launches...
Would it be possible to drop around 20 amps on the motor when the tree
starts to count down? This could be a simple controller bypass
resistor. I don't think 20 amps for for a few seconds could
significantly heat the commutator bars but it would provide around 3
ft/lb. of torque to at least take the slack out (it wouldn't really
pre-load it but drastically shorten the hammer stroke.)
Paul "neon" G.
<SNIP>
>Implied here is that the charger should be wide-range or universal
>input. If you literally had the charger enforce a different current
>limit based on the input cordset, then you wouldn't even need
>auto-ranging, etc. but could simply flip a switch, etc. to tell the
>charger the intended input voltage and to allow the appropriate cordset
>to be plugged in. As I recall my old Lester provided two different
>recessed male AC input connections, one for 120VAC and one for 240VAC,
>and it was necessary to slide a cover to expose the desired connection
>which automatically blocked off the other connection so that both could
>not be connected to AC at the same time. It would have been
>straightforward to incorporate a switch into this cover mechanism to
>tell the charger which input current limit to enforce.
I have seen this done on some industrial equipment I work on as well (it was
208 3phase 50/60hz Vs 380V 400Hz. Yea we get into some weird stuff from time
to time) Seems to work well until the little switch under the cover that
reconfigures the guts breaks and is in setting 1 when the cord is actualy
plugged into the socket for setting 2.
>
>I'd suggest that the current limit be set based on the input voltage
>detected rather than which cordset is used, but agree with the basic
>priciple. Ideally, I would want the user/installer to be able to
>configure the 120VAC and 240VAC current limits as appropriate for their
>situation.
I would rather see it based on cordset not voltage. Depending were your at
240V @ ~12A is standard . If by chance you plug into one of these outlets
with your charger and it assumes a 40A or 50A outlet then people will not be
happy. One way to do this is use a non-standard plug on the car/charger end
of the corde and use a few extra contacts to encode the max current draw
avaliable ie all open = 10A 1-2 = 15A 1-3 = 20A 2-3 = 30A 1-2-3 = 40A that
way independent of input voltage the charger will limit the current to the
safe level that the outlet and cord can handle.
The input select / current limit is a nit-pick the bigger issue is the push
button charging. Is there anything out there even close to that today? I
have seen things for 12 to 36V systems but nothing in the higher voltages.
(looking for 156V)
Later,
Wire
I cannot speak for other customers, but I am still waiting for the original
kit.
Ordered end of May.
I received the motor and adapters, but the 2 battery chargers in the kit are
back ordered and they do not ship the rest of the kit until they come in.
I finally reached them by telephone this past weekend. They seem very
personable when on the phone.
They estimated the middle of July, however these are the same people that
told be they had shipped this order in early June.
Since I do not need the battery chargers, (I have some) I requested by email
July 3 that they ship the rest of the kit and give a refund for the
chargers. They have not responded.
When I talked with them this past weekend they said they were going to shows
and swamped with inquiries. I have been told by previous customers, that
they DO deliver they are just VERY, VERY slow. I have no idea about warranty
work as I have not received enough to try things out.
The previous comments about shipping. They apparently painted the motor and
adapter but shipped them together in crumpled paper. They banged against
each other in shipping and chipped paint off both to bare metal in several
places. A can of spray paint will keep it from rusting but looks like a
patch job.
Buggy is in the garage, motor is mounted and test batteries are in place,
now waiting for the rest of the kit.
My experiences
David
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 12:30 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: e-volks
How did e-volks make good on the messed up parts? Or did they? Do they make
good with their customers? Inquiring minds would like to know. Lawrence
Rhodes....
Philippe wrote:
"I don't catch the difference result between peukert's
effect and ohms' law effect you speak about, for my
understanding seems the same"
Googling Peukert infers that it has to do with
chemical composition of the battery getting out of
balance, lowering the chemical reaction's ability to
generate power just like it had been drained. But
when allowed to rest, the chemicals come back in to
balance, at least part way, and the power producing
capability comes back. Perhaps some energy is lost to
heat, I am not sure.
Ohm has to do with heat energy lost inside the
battery's equivalent of an internal resistor, all
forever lost to heat. Upon further reflection, the
energy lost does appear to be independent of discharge
rate (thank you Lee for your correction). So it looks
like Valence does have a pure Peukert effect of 10%
energy loss vs. 50% for the lead acid battery they
chose when going from 20 to 60A in a U1 module.
Chris
A guy I worked with in New Zealand had a property on top of a hill and
his boat moored at the bottom with probably about a 45 degree slope (I
remember it as being quite steep). He build a set of stairs down for
access. Then he put an electric winch at the top and built a little cart
that ran on the side rails of the stairs. The winch was geared such
that with about 300 lbs in the cart it would just unspool on the way
down using the drag from the motor and gears to keep from going too
fast. It then ran out to a stop on the dock without the need for
brakes. To go up you pressed a button and the winch would haul you
and/or your gear back up. It was a pretty neat piece of engineering in
that there were no sensors of controls needed to make a safe decent and
only a cutoff switch at the top to 'park' the cart when it came back up.
Lawrence
Danny Miller wrote:
> The term is "funicular".
>
> Danny
>
> David Sofio wrote:
>
>> I'm working on feasibility for a micro-monorail (NOT anything like an
>> infrastructure project; it would be for maybe four adults, or a
>> bunch of
>> building material, etc) to get up some difficult terrain to places
>> higher on
>> my hillside property.
>
The way I interpret it as the chemical composition of the surface gets
depleted under high current discharges. I believe this makes it "run
down" on the plate's surface and it behaves pretty much like the battery
is run down. The Peukert exponent is really just a constant based on
how fast diffusion will restore the plates.
I think this is an accurate description, though Peukert's has no
official description of what's happening. I have to note that the
battery technology which maintains output voltage well regardless of
charge state (NiMH/NiCd) is the technology largely unaffected by
Peukert's. That's consistent with my interpretation of it, the plate's
surface becomes depleted somewhat and makes it put out the voltage of a
run-down battery, but for that technology the battery voltage does not
decrease much in a run-down cell.
Another way of viewing Peukert's- which is not a hypothetical
speculation but simply a reinterpretation of the equation- is that a
battery of X percent charge is capable of putting out Y amps without
dropping below Z volts per cell. It is somewhat inaccurate to say that
Peukert's decreases the battery capacity. In fact battery capacity is
still there and available for lower current discharges. Peukert's just
describes limits on how much current you can pull a given charge state
while maintaining useful output voltage.
Danny
Chris Jones wrote:
>Philippe wrote:
>
>"I don't catch the difference result between peukert's
>effect and ohms' law effect you speak about, for my
>understanding seems the same"
>
>Googling Peukert infers that it has to do with
>chemical composition of the battery getting out of
>balance, lowering the chemical reaction's ability to
>generate power just like it had been drained. But
>when allowed to rest, the chemicals come back in to
>balance, at least part way, and the power producing
>capability comes back. Perhaps some energy is lost to
>heat, I am not sure.
>
>Ohm has to do with heat energy lost inside the
>battery's equivalent of an internal resistor, all
>forever lost to heat. Upon further reflection, the
>energy lost does appear to be independent of discharge
>rate (thank you Lee for your correction). So it looks
>like Valence does have a pure Peukert effect of 10%
>energy loss vs. 50% for the lead acid battery they
>chose when going from 20 to 60A in a U1 module.
>
>Chris
>
>
>
>
Peter Shabino wrote:
> Seems to work well until the little switch under the
> cover that reconfigures the guts breaks and is in
> setting 1 when the cord is actualy plugged into the
> socket for setting 2.
Yep, this is a definite weakness of the switch approach.
> I would rather see it based on cordset not voltage.
> Depending were your at 240V @ ~12A is standard. If by
> chance you plug into one of these outlets with your
> charger and it assumes a 40A or 50A outlet then people
> will not be happy. One way to do this is use a
> non-standard plug on the car/charger end of the corde
> and use a few extra contacts to encode the max current
> draw avaliable
The problem I see is that any means of telling the charger the
approriate input current limit that is independent of the input voltage
is prone to failure and can result in the wrong current limit being
applied.
My view is that the vast majority of cases are that users would take
advantage of a universal input charger to charge at a high rate from a
240VAC outlet at home and opportunity charge from 120VAC outlets away
from home. In this case, providing the user with the ability to set the
current limit for 240VAC input and for 120VAC input allows him to
accommodate whatever size outlets he has available to him. If he has
only a 12A 240VAC outlet, set the 240VAC limit to 12A; if he has a 30A
outlet at home and uses public charging stations in CA with similar
240VAC capability, set the 240VAC limit accordingly. If 120VAC
opportunity charging is performed from outlets with unknown other loads
on the same circuit, set the 120VAC limit conservatively to perhaps 10A
or less.
> The input select / current limit is a nit-pick the bigger
> issue is the push button charging. Is there anything out
> there even close to that today? I have seen things for 12
> to 36V systems but nothing in the higher voltages.
> (looking for 156V)
Depends what you mean by "push button charging". My employer makes
microprocessor controlled universal input PFC chargers that are fully
automatic (not even a push button - just connect AC and DC). 24-72V
nominal output models are standard fare, but we have done models up to
at least 250V. The big limitation here is that they are 1kW nominal.
Brusa makes very nice fully automatic chargers as well, and they
certainly handle the 156V range. About 3kW, I think. I think they are
PFC, but not universal input; Victor at MetricMind would know for sure.
Zivan makes fully automatic chargers that handle 156V packs, but they
aren't PFC and they aren't universal input; you have to buy either a
120VAC or 240VAC input model).
Cheers,
Roger.
EV Digest 5626
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
by Jim Husted <hi_torque_electric@...>
2) Re: Valence Technology Batteries
by Chris Jones <chris_b_jones@...>
3) Re: Wikipedia EV conversion
by Paul Wujek <pdw@...>
4) Re: Hosing down batteries
by "Michael Perry" <mperry@...>
5) Re: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
by "Roderick Wilde" <roderick@...>
6) Contactor
by Richard Marcus <richardmarcus@...>
7) Re: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)
by "BillDube@..." <billdube@...>
8) Re: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)Comments.
by "BillDube@..." <billdube@...>
9) 400vdc badboy
by Mike Phillips <mikep_95133@...>
10) Re: Hacked Old Mail Truck
by "Michael Perry" <mperry@...>
11) Re: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
by Steve Condie <pdkluge@...>
12) Wid Re: DC Motor torque calculations, choosing accessory motor
by Jeff Shanab <jshanab@...>
13) White Zombie hammering
by Jeff Shanab <jshanab@...>
14) Re: White Zombie hammering
by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
15) sick PMC-25
by Roger <roger@...>
16) Re: White Zombie hammering
by "Peter Shabino" <wireb@...>
17) Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 2)
by John Wayland <jw@...>
Hey All
Well nothing like inviting a bull into a china shop, ROD!
Here's the scoop
I was contacted by Jay of GoWheels (who was refered to me by another list
member) about doing some motor upgrades for these bikes recently. As someone
who does his homework (at least trys) I wanted to get some outside input and
thoughts. Having been blessed enough to have plopped into this new world via
Wayland, I've worked hard to earn my own merit, but I'm also the first to admit
that I don't know EVery damn thing either 8^ o
Being I'm close to a gaggle of EV race legends it's nice to pick their heads
and bounce stuff off them. Even on some black projects I like to get feedback,
it's because I want to do all I can to meet a projects goal, and because I
respect the insight.
Well today was a real EV day, as I talked with 4 EV'ers, those being Rod, Jay
Donnaway, Matt Graham, and FT. Being Rod had called me (more on that in another
post) I asked him to have a look at the Gowheels site and let me know what he
thought? I come home to this thread, lmao. Hey Rod, Paul Rever only needed 2
lights to report the British were coming okay, lmao 8^ P Now I doubt any
secrets were revieled (I mean he has a web site up) but I'm thinking you're
outside the secret of trust thingy for a bit Rod, LMAO!!!!
After Rod, Jay Donnaway called whining that I didn't include the wiring
diagram for the Gamera 9 which a quick fax seemed to stop that is until he
discovered I called 2 studs the same number, hehehe, Opp's. I still have to
load the pics but Jay has posted some up at his site of his Gamera9, I cant wait
to get the ride that's been promised 8^ )
I had to call Matt after that to make sure he still liked me after I razzed
him last week and to see what the east coast boys were up to. We got to talk
about WZ's last run, I then had to listen to razzing like "if the Siamese 8's
Soooo awesome how come John still has vibration, that kind of stuff, always a
treat talking with Matt. While talking with Matt, FT called.
I called FT back and caught up with him but also talked about the Gowheels
site (seemed Rod's been busy!, lmao harder). Well FT told me he called Gowheels
up and talked with Jay. FT seemed at least semi-impressed and stated that they
already build high end gas bikes through another division. I didn't get all the
poop from FT, as he's been busier than a 2 peckered goat in a field of nannies
and had to keep things short 8^ o
I actually invited Jay from Gowheels to sign up at the list here (as I do to
any who are not) for the insight I believe this group could add. Hey Jay if you
happen to be lurking, sorry if any "cat" has been let out of the bag.
Being that the cat has been let out of the bag so to speak, it seems there are
already different camps as to what the performance of this might actually be.
Anyway, my bad, thought Rod could be trusted to be ... (stop laughing Rich!)
Cya all
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs.Try it free.
Cliff wrote:
"Does the system allow you to set the temperature
warning level?"
No it is fixed to drive an early warning light at 60C
and request disconnect or directly disconnect a
contactor at 65C.
Thanks for the tip on fans. I will look at my temp
data and see if I have any issues and either address
them or rotate them with the tires.
"Would you be able to see which module is having high
temperature problems to tune your cooling?"
Yes, there are status LEDs on the modules. I can also
query the BMS via CANBus.
"Kokam's pass the impact test, nail penetration test,
over heating test, crush test, over charging test"
Also progress since my last check -- good news.
"How much current can they shunt?"
Don't know -- enough I hope. Hopefully they are
pretty uniform. I will log data and review it.
"Will you have to do any programming or is it pretty
much 'plug and play'?"
Supposedly the BMS and charger will plug and play,
after repgrogramming the charger to go in to CAN mode
vs. automatic as I ordered it.
Chris
Good heavens Mike, don't be horrified, fix the page!
That's the way that Wikipedia was conceived, and what Rod was asking
people to do.
You don't even have to fix the whole thing, just make some minor
improvements, hopefully others will do the same.
Mike Ellis wrote:
> I visited the page and was somewhat horrified to discover that the
> first type of conversion listed was "Novelty." Novelty also had the
> biggest and the most pictures.
>
> Next was bikes with a picture.
>
> No pics at all for actual cars and trucks.
>
> We can sign up and edit the page. I'd do it but I think maybe someone
> with more EV cred would be a good idea.
>
> -Mike
>
> On 7/4/06, Rod Hower <rodhower@...> wrote:
>> Had some extra time today so I spent some time at
>> wikipedia.
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_vehicle_conversion
>>
>> It seems that almost all of the categories have very
>> little information and links. I just thought the list
>> could contribute our collective knowlege to make this
>> a better resourse for those looking into EV's.
>> Rod
>>
>>
>
>
--
Paul Wujek (pdw@...) h:(905)279-5885 c:(416)892-5885
Perhaps, if you connected the hose to your neg terminal and held the
positive, you might feel something. Unless you plan on filling your battery
boxes full of water, you aren't going to complete a circuit. If you are
*really* concerned, turn it on spray. There will be *lots* of air space
between the terminals.
As for your body, there is still lots of insulating materials between you
and the car's batts, even if it could make a serious connection. You haven't
gotten a shock when you've taken your ICE to the 2-bit car wash, right?
(Granted, it's only 12V, but you are holding a metal wand... and a 12V batt
can still take a chunk our of a wrench dropped across the terminals.) As Lee
stated earlier, water is a very poor conductor. Any short (if there were
one) would still go between the posts... not through the water stream,
through the rubber hose, down through your body, through the tires and frame
of the vehicle, and back to the other terminal of the batt.
Hosing down your batts before servicing can save a lot of clothes. When
servicing the batts in my EV, I kept a bottle of dilute baking soda around
and wore rubber gloves. There's far more danger from the acid residue than
from the chance of shock. (Use care to not splash on your body when washing,
and ignore it if your nose itches, while servicing batts... due to corrosive
residue.)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Zach" <czach@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 6:10 PM
Subject: Re: Hosing down batteries
> > However, the only way I'd do this with a high voltage pack (anything
> > over 120v) is if I split the pack into several unconnected groups, each
> > below 48v or so.
>
> Hm. How safe/dangerous is 75 volts? I have rigged my Prizm using a 3
> phase switch as the disconnect and it bisects the pack into two with one
> set, and divides each side into two regions with the other. Thus the max
> voltage I can be nailed with is 75.
>
> Is this safe or still dangerous enough to get me killed?
>
> Chris
>
Hi Jim, Why were they talking to you about their AC drives. Their site says
246 bhp at 12,500 rpm. We ALL know this is only possible with AC. I have had
a few DCs at 12,500 rpms and they are hard to disassemble. In fact I still
have one somewhere from Firebird Raceway in Phoenix, Arizona that exploded
on the straight stretch. When the windings fly out of the armature at that
rpm they entangle themselves in the fields so completely it is like ancient
roots around stones and logs. I have used very big hammers and chisels. They
just don't come apart. This is much different that a quick 20,000 rpm com
explosion from a missed shift. In this situation the com bars come out
rather quickly and all twisted and land all over the pavement This happens
in a fraction of a second. Hey Jim, I apologize if I was not supposed to see
what was on a web site. I hope I didn't get you in trouble with the AC boys.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Husted" <hi_torque_electric@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 5:56 PM
Subject: RE: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
> Hey All
>
> Well nothing like inviting a bull into a china shop, ROD!
> Here's the scoop
> I was contacted by Jay of GoWheels (who was refered to me by another list
> member) about doing some motor upgrades for these bikes recently. As
> someone who does his homework (at least trys) I wanted to get some outside
> input and thoughts. Having been blessed enough to have plopped into this
> new world via Wayland, I've worked hard to earn my own merit, but I'm also
> the first to admit that I don't know EVery damn thing either 8^ o
>
> Being I'm close to a gaggle of EV race legends it's nice to pick their
> heads and bounce stuff off them. Even on some black projects I like to
> get feedback, it's because I want to do all I can to meet a projects goal,
> and because I respect the insight.
>
> Well today was a real EV day, as I talked with 4 EV'ers, those being Rod,
> Jay Donnaway, Matt Graham, and FT. Being Rod had called me (more on that
> in another post) I asked him to have a look at the Gowheels site and let
> me know what he thought? I come home to this thread, lmao. Hey Rod, Paul
> Rever only needed 2 lights to report the British were coming okay, lmao
> 8^ P Now I doubt any secrets were revieled (I mean he has a web site up)
> but I'm thinking you're outside the secret of trust thingy for a bit Rod,
> LMAO!!!!
>
> After Rod, Jay Donnaway called whining that I didn't include the wiring
> diagram for the Gamera 9 which a quick fax seemed to stop that is until he
> discovered I called 2 studs the same number, hehehe, Opp's. I still have
> to load the pics but Jay has posted some up at his site of his Gamera9, I
> cant wait to get the ride that's been promised 8^ )
>
> I had to call Matt after that to make sure he still liked me after I
> razzed him last week and to see what the east coast boys were up to. We
> got to talk about WZ's last run, I then had to listen to razzing like "if
> the Siamese 8's Soooo awesome how come John still has vibration, that kind
> of stuff, always a treat talking with Matt. While talking with Matt, FT
> called.
>
> I called FT back and caught up with him but also talked about the
> Gowheels site (seemed Rod's been busy!, lmao harder). Well FT told me he
> called Gowheels up and talked with Jay. FT seemed at least semi-impressed
> and stated that they already build high end gas bikes through another
> division. I didn't get all the poop from FT, as he's been busier than a 2
> peckered goat in a field of nannies and had to keep things short 8^ o
> I actually invited Jay from Gowheels to sign up at the list here (as I do
> to any who are not) for the insight I believe this group could add. Hey
> Jay if you happen to be lurking, sorry if any "cat" has been let out of
> the bag.
> Being that the cat has been let out of the bag so to speak, it seems
> there are already different camps as to what the performance of this might
> actually be.
> Anyway, my bad, thought Rod could be trusted to be ... (stop laughing
> Rich!)
> Cya all
> Jim Husted
> Hi-Torque Electric
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs.Try it free.
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.9/382 - Release Date: 7/4/2006
>
>
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.9/382 - Release Date: 7/4/2006
Anyone have an idea of a test?
Here the issue: 72v running a split pack of 6 volts (relatively new pack). I
recently had the controller (Curtis 1221b) rebuilt and upgraded by Logisystems.
It was fried, but just reinstalling the controller didn't resolve the issue.
There is full voltage from the pot/KSI when a load is put on. Zip from the B+
of the controller. It seems something is up with the contactor. I haven't
played with the contactor until now. 12 volts goes in which is enough for the
magnet to pull. However, the design of the contactor appears to need a "push"
to snap the contacts together. Is that possible? if so, how could the magnetic
field be opposite? As a test tried bypassing the contactor; like this there is
full voltage at the B+... but also at the B- (even without a load put on --
should that happen?). Any thoughts?
thanks
Richard
I blew up the SVRs because the interconnects let go before I
could load them to half voltage (and get the theoretical maximum
power.) The theory wasn't wrong. The interconnects just wouldn't take
the duty cycle. Indeed, the only way to find this sort of "weak link"
is to do the test. This is not the problem John has, however.
I should add that the limitations of the diffusion rate of
the battery reactants can move the peak power point a bit away from
the simplistic theoretical 1/2 open-circuit voltage point. In a
battery designed for high-power, however, it doesn't move very far
from the point predicted by the Thevenin theory. You may have to draw
just a touch harder, perhaps to 6.0 volts, but certainly not to 5.5 volts.
By the way, my series-parallel contactors are in the spare parts bin,
not on the bike. :-)
O-ring chain does the trick. Lasts many runs. Backlash in the chain
is not the problem. Whipping off the lubricant is the problem. O-ring
chains keep the lube in place.
Twin controllers would probably make John's car go faster.
(It would certainly make Otmar smile.)
Bill Dube'
At 11:53 AM 7/6/2006, you wrote:
>Yea but the Battery itself has a power peak, and it's not always 1/2 the
>open circuit voltage.
>That's why we do battery blast tests, to find this spot..
>
>As you recall Bill you dropped your SVR pack below the point that we had
>found.
>As as you now predict.. you get less power and blew up batteries.
>
>The Thevenin Theorm is applicable to the controller design and it's
>operation. The controller allows for power in a range that can be used.
>That's why we don't contactor drive series wound motors with 100C rated
>Lions... or even 20 C AGM now days.
>
>Wayland is asking more from his batteries than they can make. In his mind he
>needs more power.
>I grant that in the simple world of going faster..he could use more But..
>and this is the Big Butt right now.
>
>He is launching with the front tires in the air, and slamming the car
>sideways with the Series parallel transfer. Any more real power gains are
>going to come with a hefty cost.
>He is breaking his drive train with the torque slam on the start and at s/P.
>Most racers ...ie ICE driven racers can load the drive train until the Green
>light.. John can't because he has to bump up to the lights, and then the
>back lash is still loose when he launches...
>
> Otmar's Curse/Blessing at the s/P change over is just too brutal. At the
>power levels and RPM that Wayland is making.. he's totally unloading the
>diffy for 500 msec then going back to full amps in like 50 Ms. This is like
>using a 100 lbs Sledge hammer with a 2000 lbs strong arm on the gear faces
>and bearings. This happens on Every run at the same point.
>
>We have to find a better way of changing over the contactors.
>And Yes Bill you need to do so with your motor drive setup also. You are
>loosing 500 Milliseconds... That's rather large in your world and you are
>really stressing your drive chain doing this.
>Somebody else had this problem about 15 years ago... and welded chain on
>every other run. Much effort has been expended to totally reduce drive train
>back lash...
>You and Wayland now have the same issues to solve...
>
>Series parallel lets two kinda stock motors.. Hey they have the same field
>windings and air gaps and same molded comms... Stock is stock! Behave much
>better than a single stock motor.
>But... it comes at a cost of contactors and therefore you can't run them
>continuously from one end of the track to the other...without twin
>controllers.
>
>I think I can do better runs by using the manual s/P switch and a little
>practice. The one of the big points in John's case is to allow for manual
>power control AFTER the s/P event, this may allow him to climb back on the
>power without or with minimal traction losses, and may let him drive through
>the "Shake and Bake" vibration problem.
>
>Madman
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "BillDube@..." <billdube@...>
>To: <ev@...>
>Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 6:40 AM
>Subject: Re: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)
>
>
> > I'll confirm that as you go faster, it gets harder and
> > harder to carve away any more. Each additional tenth is a lot harder.
> > (I used to race all by myself, now it takes a whole team!)
> >
> > I noticed you mentioned that you were sagging your batteries
> > to as low as 5.5 volts. You should set your Zilla to never take the
> > pack below 1/2 the open-circuit voltage of the pack. Drawing more
> > amperage, but sagging the batteries below 6.3 volts each results in
> > less HP, not more. It puts you on the "backside" of the power curve.
> > Strange, but true. :^)
> >
> > I'd suggest that you set the minimum pack voltage to 189
> > volts on your Zilla and you should get more HP and lower ETs.
> >
> > >>> Theory (for those that might be interested) <<
> >
> > Based on Thevenin's theorem.
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thevenin's_theorem
> >
> > The load resistance must equal the Thevenin resistance of
> > the source for maximum power transfer. When this is true, the load
> > voltage equals 1/2 of the open-circuit voltage of the source.
> >
> > http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_10/11.html
> >
> > See, I don't just make this stuff up. ;^)
> >
> > Bill Dube'
> >
> > At 08:02 AM 7/5/2006, you wrote:
> > ><big snip>
> > >
> > >(2) Strong as they are, I'm close to extracting the max possible
> > >power from the battery pack. According to the graphs Mark Farver
> > >made off Zilla info, at the beginning of a run, each 12V battery
> > >falls to about 8.2V at 1000 amps giving about 246 kw (330 hp) of
> > >initial power. Near the end of the 12 second run, each battery has
> > >fallen as low as 5.5V with the pack making just 165 kw of power (221 hp).
> >
Bob Rice wrote:
> Racing is an expensive hobby!
My favorite quote, "The way to make a small fortune in
racing is to start out with a large fortune."
Bill Dube'
I took a 28v multitap transformer and experimented by connecting a
variac to the secondary and using the primary side as the output to
feed a rectifier/filter module. At less than 1/2 an amp draw from the
120vac, the output is 400vdc. Sweet. The Dolphin boards I'm debugging
need something to simulate the 312v nominal pack voltage. Plus it had
to be adjustable. Just need to get a box to put it all into now.
Mike
I can relate, Roderick. One of the annoyances of owning my car was the
gawkers or those who thought they could tear it up. (Trying to tip it over
or bending parts of the body/windows.) The other part was the 4x4's or
hot-rods, who'd pass and cut directly in front of me, to slow down again. I
had one hot-rod that pulled in front and shot (pitiful) flames out his
exhaust at me.
It'd be fun to pass them, then leave them in a cloud of tire smoke. (The
cops would enjoy this also, I am sure.) Still, it's a nice fantasy.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <roderick@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 8:18 AM
Subject: Re: Hacked Old Mail Truck
> Lee, I have often fantasized about a hot rod City Car being the ultimate
> sleeper on the street. Any Vette blown away by one would have a hard time
> living it down. Of course it would have the words "Electric Car" very big
on
> the sides, the front and the rear. You would have room enough to run a
high
> voltage string of Hawker 16 amp/hr batteries. You could get a narrowed 9"
> Ford from a Taylor Dunn golf cart. These are so narrow they would allow
for
> a tubbed type rear with the rear tires almost touching each other on the
> inner sides of the tires. Since it is so light you would not need a
> transmission. Hey Lee, when are we going to get started on yours :-)
>
> Roderick Wilde
> "Suck Amps EV Racing"
> www.suckamps.com
Well, I can't speak for the technical issues (other than to raise my eyebrows at
the claims) but I can say this: if you google their phone number you get over a
half-dozen different organizations, all at the same address - website design,
race horses (ooh! "Hot Equestrians!), something about art and world peace,
non-profits, "charitable trusts", etc. Generally not the sign of a solid
business. No evidence of ever having actually created anything which, uh,
actually runs. Also, the various "corporate" identities listed - Timotca,
GoWheels, etc. - don't show up on the databases kept by the California or Nevada
state governments. Then there's the matter of the $2,877 wheels they're selling
which are so good because they're made of "Barotex and titanium". I'll leave
that to the metallurgists among you. But my general suspicion is, well - I
wouldn't invest too much time with these guys without actually seeing something
in person that made sense.
Oh - and the blue bike on the website is an obvious and very clumsy fake,
which actually does appear to have used a picture of a bicycle as its base -
although it's hard to tell because the chain sort of disappears after it goes
behind the frame!
Roderick Wilde <roderick@...> wrote:
Hi Jim, Why were they talking to you about their AC drives. Their site says
246 bhp at 12,500 rpm. We ALL know this is only possible with AC. I have had
a few DCs at 12,500 rpms and they are hard to disassemble. In fact I still
have one somewhere from Firebird Raceway in Phoenix, Arizona that exploded
on the straight stretch. When the windings fly out of the armature at that
rpm they entangle themselves in the fields so completely it is like ancient
roots around stones and logs. I have used very big hammers and chisels. They
just don't come apart. This is much different that a quick 20,000 rpm com
explosion from a missed shift. In this situation the com bars come out
rather quickly and all twisted and land all over the pavement This happens
in a fraction of a second. Hey Jim, I apologize if I was not supposed to see
what was on a web site. I hope I didn't get you in trouble with the AC boys.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Husted"
To:
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 5:56 PM
Subject: RE: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
> Hey All
>
> Well nothing like inviting a bull into a china shop, ROD!
> Here's the scoop
> I was contacted by Jay of GoWheels (who was refered to me by another list
> member) about doing some motor upgrades for these bikes recently. As
> someone who does his homework (at least trys) I wanted to get some outside
> input and thoughts. Having been blessed enough to have plopped into this
> new world via Wayland, I've worked hard to earn my own merit, but I'm also
> the first to admit that I don't know EVery damn thing either 8^ o
>
> Being I'm close to a gaggle of EV race legends it's nice to pick their
> heads and bounce stuff off them. Even on some black projects I like to
> get feedback, it's because I want to do all I can to meet a projects goal,
> and because I respect the insight.
>
> Well today was a real EV day, as I talked with 4 EV'ers, those being Rod,
> Jay Donnaway, Matt Graham, and FT. Being Rod had called me (more on that
> in another post) I asked him to have a look at the Gowheels site and let
> me know what he thought? I come home to this thread, lmao. Hey Rod, Paul
> Rever only needed 2 lights to report the British were coming okay, lmao
> 8^ P Now I doubt any secrets were revieled (I mean he has a web site up)
> but I'm thinking you're outside the secret of trust thingy for a bit Rod,
> LMAO!!!!
>
> After Rod, Jay Donnaway called whining that I didn't include the wiring
> diagram for the Gamera 9 which a quick fax seemed to stop that is until he
> discovered I called 2 studs the same number, hehehe, Opp's. I still have
> to load the pics but Jay has posted some up at his site of his Gamera9, I
> cant wait to get the ride that's been promised 8^ )
>
> I had to call Matt after that to make sure he still liked me after I
> razzed him last week and to see what the east coast boys were up to. We
> got to talk about WZ's last run, I then had to listen to razzing like "if
> the Siamese 8's Soooo awesome how come John still has vibration, that kind
> of stuff, always a treat talking with Matt. While talking with Matt, FT
> called.
>
> I called FT back and caught up with him but also talked about the
> Gowheels site (seemed Rod's been busy!, lmao harder). Well FT told me he
> called Gowheels up and talked with Jay. FT seemed at least semi-impressed
> and stated that they already build high end gas bikes through another
> division. I didn't get all the poop from FT, as he's been busier than a 2
> peckered goat in a field of nannies and had to keep things short 8^ o
> I actually invited Jay from Gowheels to sign up at the list here (as I do
> to any who are not) for the insight I believe this group could add. Hey
> Jay if you happen to be lurking, sorry if any "cat" has been let out of
> the bag.
> Being that the cat has been let out of the bag so to speak, it seems
> there are already different camps as to what the performance of this might
> actually be.
> Anyway, my bad, thought Rod could be trusted to be ... (stop laughing
> Rich!)
> Cya all
> Jim Husted
> Hi-Torque Electric
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs.Try it free.
>
>
>
>
> --
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Do you Yahoo!?
Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
Since Air conditioning and power steering are different types of loads,
perhaps we could somehow detect when power steering is needed and then
just release the AC clutch when the power steering pump is on. Some of
the newer pumps have a bypass and it can freewheel. A Variation in this
could turn the motor one direction for Power steering and turn the other
way for AC, a simple one way lets the power steering pump stop and the
typical AC clutch is wired tot he reversing contactor.
Remembering the SCR bypass. Would a variation of that and the retactor
circuit keep the motors loaded thru the shift from serial to parallel.
B+ -------------------zilla-----------------
| |
\ / motor
--- 1
|-----||----| |
motor bubba |
2 \ /
| -----
B- -----zilla----|___________|
Give up some on the parallel end but only 1 contactor in the paralell
mode. Breaking thos amps would suck, but I think there is a way around
that, Lee?
Jeff Shanab wrote:
> Remembering the SCR bypass. Would a variation of that and the retactor
> circuit keep the motors loaded thru the shift from serial to parallel?
_______
Pack+__|B+ M+|_____________________
| | _|_ diode _|_
| | _\_/_ / \ motor
| | | Bubba \___/ 1
| Zilla | |______||______|
| | _|_ || |
| | / \ motor _|_
| | \___/ 2 _\_/_ diode
Pack-__|B- M-|______|______________|
|_______|
Yes, this would basically work. It requires some very big diodes, able
to carry the full Zilla motor current. I still wouldn't want to switch
that Bubba contactor while motor current was flowing, though -- it could
produce some nasty transients for the Zilla.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
I have a Jet Industries Ford Courier
with a PMC-25 going into a GE motor.
I checked the motor brushes as suggested before. They look fine
( about 1" long, with nice smooth curved surfaces)
It worked fine for several years, then about a month ago I couldn't
get more than 180ish amps out of it.
then 2 weeks ago I couldn't get more than 80ish amps.
I searched the web, found an old article regarding bad power resistors.
I carefully opened the PMC-25, saw two very over-heated looking
5watt power resistors and replaced them.
Sadly, there is no change. in the cool of the morning I can get
80 amps. then at lunchtime (when it is 80 outside), 20-30 amps
as I try to go up a short hill.
Any suggestions? Anyone have a schematic for this WAY old controller
(No, Curtis does NOT have the drawings anymore. Nor will Flight
Systems venture to repair it. Very scary to send in a photo and hear
them speaking at the other end of the phone; "You ever see one of these?
Nope, me either.")
thanks
jolly roger
Am I missing something here? if you ever closed "bubba" you would have a
direct short between M+ and M- via D1 and D2. Or is that what you wanted??
Confused,
Wire
>From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
>Reply-To: ev@...
>To: ev@...
>Subject: Re: White Zombie hammering
>Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 23:53:51 -0500
>
>Jeff Shanab wrote:
> > Remembering the SCR bypass. Would a variation of that and the retactor
> > circuit keep the motors loaded thru the shift from serial to parallel?
> _______
>Pack+__|B+ M+|_____________________
> | | _|_ diode _|_
> | | _\_/_ / \ motor
> | | | Bubba \___/ 1
> | Zilla | |______||______|
> | | _|_ || |
> | | / \ motor _|_
> | | \___/ 2 _\_/_ diode
>Pack-__|B- M-|______|______________|
> |_______|
>
>Yes, this would basically work. It requires some very big diodes, able
>to carry the full Zilla motor current. I still wouldn't want to switch
>that Bubba contactor while motor current was flowing, though -- it could
>produce some nasty transients for the Zilla.
>--
>Ring the bells that still can ring
>Forget the perfect offering
>There is a crack in everything
>That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>--
>Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
Hello to All,
From Matt Graham:
>Now I hope you feel very proud of yourself for teasing us all with "Part 1"
>and no "Part 2" and references to spectacular video but no gratifying
>updates to http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/videos.php. You've had your fun.
>
>More, please.
>
OK, as requested....
I had left off here:
>Of course, it felt great knowing the camera crew had already got what
they came for....filming an electric car take on and beat muscle >cars.
The first recharge was from generator power, so it was noisy and it took
about 20 minutes. After the charge was complete and with the noise from
the generator silenced, it was time for some great interviews with the
film crew. I was totally impressed when 'Pixel' started into his 'on
camera' dialog as he perfectly explained all things about White
Zombie...no mistakes and I didn't have to make any corrections. He had
been to the Plasma Boy web page and had studied everything, then
memorized it all! After the photo session in the pit area was completed,
out to the staging lanes they went. So did I in White Zombie.
As has happened before, because of the mid-to-low 12s the car runs, I
was immediately bumped out of lane 4 over into the pro stock lane
3...argghh...trailered-in cars all tubbed, stuffed with 31 inch wrinkle
walls, equipped with wheelie bars and a parachute, and running from 10’s
to high 11’s. This caused me concern, as the idea was to show an
electric street car ‘beating’ gas cars at the drag strip...not an
electric car ‘getting beat’ by gas cars :-(
At 7:10 pm I found myself getting ready to run with a white pro stock
Mustang, probably kicking out in excess of 650 hp. The crowd was into
it, too. Here’s this fully beefed out fully tubbed Mustang with monster
wrinkle walls, a chute, and wheelie bars, and here’s my lean little
electric Datsun econobox next to it, both of us in the burnout pits. He
does a heavy duty smoke show, I do an ‘OK’ one. The tires didn’t ignite
the way they usually do, and instead, they just spun lazily enough that
the car was shoved forward (should have never let ‘someone’ change my
Zilla’s valet settings). The tires need to be spun up quickly and need
to be kept spinning fast to avoid the way the car acted. Oh well...what
can I say? It was a wimpy but ‘OK’ burnout.
With cameras rolling, the tree sent us on our way. To my and I bet the
crowd’s surprise as well, the Zombie hung pretty well with the Mustang
and at the 60 ft. mark we were neck and neck. The Mustang had a better
60 ft. time of 1.577 to my 1.671, but I got a bit of a head start with a
.017 to his .109...not too bad a reaction time for having been out of
the cockpit for a year! With my jump due to my reaction time, by the
time were at the 60 ft. mark, as I said, we were neck and neck. The pro
stock stang was ahead of me by .5 seconds in the 1/8th mile, but from
the vantage point of everyone in the stands, it must have looked a lot
closer than it was. Just as I was thinking I was holding my own at
around 100 mph against a faster car, the high rpm vibration (mentioned
in pt. 1) came on strong and it felt as if all acceleration simply
halted....then, maybe two seconds later, as I see the stang pulling
away, the vibration went away and acceleration resumed, but alas, it
returned too late and I was crossing the finish line a second later :-(
In the end, the Mustang ripped off an easy 11.213 ET to my 12.350 ET,
and of course, he was clicking along at 119.09 mph while I was only
going 104.73 mph. Again, it’s all captured on camera by pros, so it
should look pretty cool to see an electric car hang’n with a pro stock
Mustang! For me, it was pretty exciting to have turned a 12.3 at 104+
mph on the second run of the night...on the other hand, with the
vibration thing returning to plague me, was this really going to be the
night we’d hit the 11s, or would the car hit another performance wall?
Back in the pits, Rudman had left to go get a 60 amp dual breaker so he
could safely tap into the AC mains, so it was generator time again.
During and and after charging, with both a hot street electric and a hot
electric bike to check out, we were inundated by racing fans absolutely
blown away by electric powered machines...how cool is this?
At 8:05 PM, I was back in lane 3 wondering what I was going to be up
against next, and at the same time, hoping that a low 12 or maybe even
an elusive high 11 second run was awaiting me. In the staging lanes,
White Zombie was a focal point. The film crew was on hand there, too. I
hope they got reactions from fans and other drivers. To be honest, I
can’t remember what kind of car I ran against on this, the third run of
the night. Marko had difficulties running my video cam, so the only race
I’ve got here at home on video, is the race between White Zombie and a
strong running 12 second Subaru WRX. Anyway, suffice it to say it was
some kind of muscle car from lane 3, and, that it luckily for me, it
wasn’t running up to snuff. In the burnout pit I hit it hard, then
suddenly realized I had forgotten to switch-on the valet mode and was
proceeding to do a full powered burn (like Tim did at Woodburn ‘05 where
the car shifted into parallel and did its famous arcy-sparky bit)...I
immediately got out of it, so again, a wimpy burnout and tires not so
sticky. This was proven with the worst 60 ft. of the night at just 1.86
and the car’s slowest ET of the night. Still, in spite of a bad launch
and the high speed vibration, White Zombie posted a respectable 12.647 @
103.96 mph vs the muscle car at 13.285 @ 104.76 mph. Another win for the
electric...again, all caught professionally on camera! It’s fun to be
able to say that a 12.6 was the car’s slowest run of the night :-)
Back in the pits, a surprise awaited me. Rudman had us wired! No stink’n
generator. Re-charge time for the car was 7 minutes!!! Again, lots of
excitement over the bike and the car, more interviews, and more fun than
any EVer should be allowed to have :-) During recharge, the plug-in Todd
DC-DC we had been using to keep the little 12V under hood battery juiced
up, threw a few sparks and suddenly let its smoke out, so no more
freshening up the 12V system's battery :-( This would come back to bite
me in the ass later. Why the Todd, and not the nifty new high voltage
DC-DC Chris Brune had made for me?
From Chris Brune:
>Well hopefully the DC/DC worked as well as looked. ;-)
Easy answer...between long work days, traveling, and family matters that
took up lots of time after work, I simply ran out of time to get the
install completed. Yes, it was mounted in the car, but the wiring did
not get completed in time :-(
At 8:50 I caught a break when one of the pro stock cars was not ready
and they instead, pitted the aforementioned hot Sube against the
electric car. I had seen this silver Sube turboed four run, and it was
formidable, easily running in the 12s. I got a better burnout this time
and thus, got the tires heated better. Cameras rolling....White Zombie
got a 1.67 60 ft. time, the Sube a not-so-great 2.048....White Zombie a
7.749 1/8th mile, the Sube an 8.144 1/8th mile....and finally, White
Zombie’s ET of 12.397 @ 103.75 mph vs the Sube’s of 12.625 @ 109.05 mph.
Man, I LOVE beating gas cars!
Another 7 minute re-charge and fully heated batteries, and the car was
ready to run again. Hopes were diminishing about seeing an 11 second
run, though, as 12.3 seemed to be ‘the wall’ on this night :-( The rear
end was getting noisier, too. I was getting a little bummed and for all
who’d come to see the runs, I felt I was letting them down :-(
The last race of the night, was against another pro stock car, and
again, I can’t remember what type it was. At 9:33 we were in the burnout
pits. Steve Kiser came onto the track, stood in front of the car, and
hand-guided me to just the right spot, then I hit it. This time, it was
a good burnout as I watched Steve to signal me to release the line lock.
He gave the go-ahead wave, I released the line lock, and kept the hammer
down as White Zombie scorched out of the water box still churning the
rear meats. Hopefully, it looks as good on video as it felt in the car!
On launch the car pulled an identical 1.67 60 ft. time to the previous
run, ran a 7.732 1/8th mile, and netted another 12.3 run, precisely, a
12.350 @ 104.73 mph. Yeah, I got beat with the other guy running an
11.513 @ 115.62 mph, but again, from the stands the race probably looked
pretty close as White Zombie hangs in there for the 1/8th mile portion
against these more powerful cars. It’s fun to compare the car’s last
runs of the night, to see the consistency:
4th run 1.67 60 ft., 7.749 1/8th mile, 12.397 @ 103.75 mph
5th run 1.67 60 ft., 7.732 1/8th mile, 12.350 @ 104.73 mph
This last run is where the batteries gassed a bit, lightly fogged the
Lexan inside pack lid, and emitted a faint sulfur smell, and it’s where
the parallel upshift really broke the tires loose the worse and where
the vibration was the strongest. I decided to cut my losses after this
run, and called it a night.
Back in the pits, the stream of fans never stopped, and most didn’t want
me to stop running the car. With the high rpm vibration seemingly
getting worse and with the pack a bit distressed, I feel I made the
right choice, though. Duane and Steve ran the bike a couple more times,
so it was fun to watch them as a spectator. They really did a great job!
The track shut down at around 11:50, but by the time we had the bike
loaded into the rear of Steve's Ford Ranger and had all the cords and
chargers put away, it was 12:30 AM or so. Steve and Duane bid us
farewell and headed back north towards home, while the rest of us went
over to the local Shari's restaurant for a late night meal.
After good eats and great post racing fellowship, it was time to take
the car home. I was concerned about the 12V battery under the Zombie's
hood, as it hadn't been re-charged since before the last runs and the
drive to the restaurant with the headlights on further drained it. At
only 16 ahrs, and perhaps just 9 or 10 of those ahrs still available,
the math didn't didn't look good for supporting 21 amps for the 25
minute drive home. And with that worry on my mind, with Brent (forklift
technician friend) in the work service truck following me, I left for
home. The lights weren't so bright and as the miles stacked on, they
grew dimmer. At perhaps 4 miles from my house, I decided to save power
by shutting down the headlights and running on parking lights only, all
the while hoping a cop wouldn't spot me driving with my headlights off.
Two miles from home, the main contactor dropped out and the car coasted
slower and slower as I shut down the parking lights and glided in
darkness...nice! About 15 seconds later as the 12V battery bounced back
up, I tried to reboot the Zilla and successfully did so. So here I am,
driving in darkness, each oncoming car convincing me they were a cop, so
I'd pulse on, then off, the parking lights to mark my presence.
Long story short...I made it home. Once there, the car was immediately
put on charge for both the traction pack and the 12V battery. The 360V
pack took the drive home without breaking a sweat and even going up a
steep 2 mile hill on the last leg home, it never fell below 174V under a
fairly heavy load...this, after 16 miles! When the pack is hot, the
range seems to be pretty darn good and the car felt as if it could have
gone 40 miles! Speaking of hot, now a week later, the pack seems to be
doing well after last Friday's punishing evening, and the pack rests at
389-390V at 70-75 degrees ambient temperature. The 12V battery, being a
Hawker, took its charge well, and a week later it sits at 13.1V, so it
lived through a 100% discharge. Chris will be happy to know I've nearly
completed the DC-DC install and will be testing it this weekend on some
nighttime Zombie cruises. I'm pretty happy with the install with it's
clean look and detailed wiring that includes a magnetic blowout high
voltage side power on-off relay, high voltage input fuse, 50 amp low
voltage side output fuse, and all wires run in a sano manner.
Well, that's it for now. Thanks to everyone for listening, and thanks to
all for the help and support! Stay tuned for more racing adventures and
fun with White Zombie.
See Ya...John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
http://www.plasmaboyracing.com
>
>
>>
>
EV Digest 5627
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)Comments.
by "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
2) Torque Slam was: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)
by "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
3) Re: micro-monorail project needs tech input or FUNicular RR
by "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
4) RE: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
by Cor van de Water <CWater@...>
5) Current Eliminator running?
by "Rush" <Rush@...>
6) Re: Comparing batteries - was Re: Valence Technology Batteries
by "Philippe Borges" <philippe.borges@...>
7) Re: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)
by Otmar <otlists@...>
8) Re: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)
by Otmar <otlists@...>
9) Who Killed the Electric Car T-shirts (front and back design)
by Chip Gribben <futurev@...>
10) Closing the Gap
by "Mark E. Hanson" <mhanson12340@...>
11) Re: Current Eliminator running?
by KilowattA798@...
12) Re: battery box clearance
by Bob Bath <civicwithacord@...>
13) Re: White Zombie hammering
by Jeff Shanab <jshanab@...>
14) Fw: An Automotive Zoo, Horns for EV's
by "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
15) Re: White Zombie hammering
by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
16) Re: Closing the Gap
by Jim Husted <hi_torque_electric@...>
17) Re: Closing the Gap
by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
18) Re: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
by mreish <mreish@...>
19) Update , From Tony's
by <bobrice@...>
20) Re: White Zombie hammering
by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
21) Looking for a quite vacuum pump
by "Lewis, Brian K" <lewis@...>
22) 3 Phase motor substitute?
by Mike Phillips <mikep_95133@...>
23) Re: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
by "Rich Rudman" <rmanzan@...>
24) Re: Taurus EV
by "Rich Rudman" <rmanzan@...>
25) Re: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)
by "Rich Rudman" <rmanzan@...>
26) RE: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
by "Roger Stockton" <rstockton@...>
27) RE: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)
by "Roger Stockton" <rstockton@...>
28) Re: 3 Phase motor substitute?
by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
----- Original Message -----
From: "BillDube@..." <billdube@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 11:18 PM
Subject: Re: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)Comments.
> Bob Rice wrote:
>
> > Racing is an expensive hobby!
>
>
> My favorite quote, "The way to make a small fortune in
> racing is to start out with a large fortune."
>
> Bill Dube'
>
Good One! I thought it was to make a small fortune in the Electric Car Biz
was to start with a large fortune.:Bob Aronson?
Seeya
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul G." <paul-g@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 7:11 PM
Subject: Re: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)
>
> On Jul 6, 2006, at 10:53 AM, Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> > He is breaking his drive train with the torque slam on the start and
> > at s/P.
> > Most racers ...ie ICE driven racers can load the drive train until the
> > Green
> > light.. John can't because he has to bump up to the lights, and then
> > the
> > back lash is still loose when he launches...
>
> Would it be possible to drop around 20 amps on the motor when the tree
> starts to count down? This could be a simple controller bypass
> resistor. I don't think 20 amps for for a few seconds could
> significantly heat the commutator bars but it would provide around 3
> ft/lb. of torque to at least take the slack out (it wouldn't really
> pre-load it but drastically shorten the hammer stroke.)
>
> Paul "neon" G.
>
Hi EVerybody;
You Bet! That small amount of"slack" can kill the best intended machines.
Dennis duz this on Current Elininater as do better electric locomotives.
EVen if John or Tim hold a few amps on the juice pedal as the tree goes
down, IF they don't already?Often notice a BANG as a EV racer launches, In a
Perfect World it should just GO!No noise, but uit is often hard to tell,
with all the ICE racket about on the strip.
My two cogs worth.
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danny Miller" <dannym@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 6:38 PM
Subject: Re: micro-monorail project needs tech input
> The term is "funicular".
> But IS it? A funicular Railway has TWO "Cars" and a simple pulley
system, a motor at the top to run the cable drum, the cars just go along for
the ride, it works best if both cars are about the same weight. Anybody in
the Pittsburgh area is VERY familiar with Funiculars, they still have a
few.I have taken liberty with the English language and have called a
ELECTRIC Railway in the mountains a Electrical Funicular, IF the power
generated by a train going DOWN the mountain powers one UP the other side?
Uses cables, the overhead wires.FUNicular Railways; And "Funicula
Funicula"the cool song" Joy is Every Where Tra la lala lalalalla"You won't
hear that one on the Blue Meanie's sound system<g>!
Another train song's worth.
> Danny
>
> David Sofio wrote:
>
> > I'm working on feasibility for a micro-monorail (NOT anything like an
> > infrastructure project; it would be for maybe four adults, or a bunch
of
> > building material, etc) to get up some difficult terrain to places
> > higher on
> > my hillside property.
>
>
All I see the specs say is: top speed n/a; cruise speed 97 MPH.
Maybe they did the km/h to miles/h conversion incorrectly and
they now adapted the website?
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: CWater@... Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: cor_van_de_water@...
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
Behalf Of Roderick Wilde
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 11:20 AM
To: ev@...
Subject: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
I thought you might all like to know about this:
http://www.gowheel.com/evDaytona_motorcycle.html If only I could learn more
about computers in order create world record breaking electrics. Heck, I end
up doing it the hard way by having to go out to the shop. It just seems like
sitting behind a computer would be so much easier :-) For your information
the still standing land speed record for an electric motorcycle at
Bonneville Salt Flats is 165.367 MPH set in 1974 by Mike Corbin.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.9/382 - Release Date: 7/4/2006
Dennis,
Are you running this weekend?
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
thanks Danny, Chris and Lee, after reading few times more your explanations,
i think i got it right and can now store it in brain stack for a while
:^)
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danny Miller" <dannym@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 2:23 AM
Subject: Re: Comparing batteries - was Re: Valence Technology Batteries
> The way I interpret it as the chemical composition of the surface gets
> depleted under high current discharges. I believe this makes it "run
> down" on the plate's surface and it behaves pretty much like the battery
> is run down. The Peukert exponent is really just a constant based on
> how fast diffusion will restore the plates.
>
> I think this is an accurate description, though Peukert's has no
> official description of what's happening. I have to note that the
> battery technology which maintains output voltage well regardless of
> charge state (NiMH/NiCd) is the technology largely unaffected by
> Peukert's. That's consistent with my interpretation of it, the plate's
> surface becomes depleted somewhat and makes it put out the voltage of a
> run-down battery, but for that technology the battery voltage does not
> decrease much in a run-down cell.
>
> Another way of viewing Peukert's- which is not a hypothetical
> speculation but simply a reinterpretation of the equation- is that a
> battery of X percent charge is capable of putting out Y amps without
> dropping below Z volts per cell. It is somewhat inaccurate to say that
> Peukert's decreases the battery capacity. In fact battery capacity is
> still there and available for lower current discharges. Peukert's just
> describes limits on how much current you can pull a given charge state
> while maintaining useful output voltage.
>
> Danny
>
> Chris Jones wrote:
>
> >Philippe wrote:
> >
> >"I don't catch the difference result between peukert's
> >effect and ohms' law effect you speak about, for my
> >understanding seems the same"
> >
> >Googling Peukert infers that it has to do with
> >chemical composition of the battery getting out of
> >balance, lowering the chemical reaction's ability to
> >generate power just like it had been drained. But
> >when allowed to rest, the chemicals come back in to
> >balance, at least part way, and the power producing
> >capability comes back. Perhaps some energy is lost to
> >heat, I am not sure.
> >
> >Ohm has to do with heat energy lost inside the
> >battery's equivalent of an internal resistor, all
> >forever lost to heat. Upon further reflection, the
> >energy lost does appear to be independent of discharge
> >rate (thank you Lee for your correction). So it looks
> >like Valence does have a pure Peukert effect of 10%
> >energy loss vs. 50% for the lead acid battery they
> >chose when going from 20 to 60A in a U1 module.
> >
> >Chris
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> Twin controllers would probably make John's car go faster. (It
>would certainly make Otmar smile.)
What!? You want to overload me even more!?
My backlog is embarrassingly long already. I'm sure he's fine with one. ;)
--
-Otmar-
914 EV, California Poppy,
http://evcl.com/914/http://www.CafeElectric.com/
The Zilla factory has moved to Corvallis Oregon.
Now accepting resumes. Please see:
http://www.cafeelectric.com/jobs.html
At 10:53 AM -0700 7/6/06, Rich Rudman wrote:
>Otmar's Curse/Blessing at the s/P change over is just too brutal. At the
>power levels and RPM that Wayland is making.. he's totally unloading the
>diffy for 500 msec then going back to full amps in like 50 Ms. This is like
>using a 100 lbs Sledge hammer with a 2000 lbs strong arm on the gear faces
>and bearings. This happens on Every run at the same point.
>
>We have to find a better way of changing over the contactors.
Ya, you are right there. I need to update the software for a softer
S/P switch. But it takes time to do that...
>I think I can do better runs by using the manual s/P switch and a little
>practice.
Good old two by fowr Rudman has been thinking that for a while, Yet
here I am, still awaiting some proof. :)
Ok, never mind proof, I'll settle for some theory. :)
For those who don't know, Rich and I have been "discussing" this for
a while, ever since Gone Postal was being built. I'd love to hear the
better algorithm, but haven't heard it yet. :-)
--
-Otmar-
914 EV, California Poppy,
http://evcl.com/914/http://www.CafeElectric.com/
The Zilla factory has moved to Corvallis Oregon.
Now accepting resumes. Please see:
http://www.cafeelectric.com/jobs.html
Hi everyone,
I think the design is completely ready to go
Front Design
http://www.evadc.org/images/wktectshirt_front.jpg
Back Design
http://www.evadc.org/images/wktectshirt_back.jpg
I'm thinking between $20 and $25 per shirt which will include the
cost of shipping Priority Mail. I'll have a better idea once I take
it in to the printers. This will be a limited run of shirts.
Chip Gribben
Hi,
I was thinking of reducing the space between the pole pieces and my armature
in my 7" (15" long) series motor to improve efficiency (and in part due to a 3.3
milli-ohm, 28 uH coil sold to me by Warfield to replace my zorched 6milli-ohm 58
uH coil).
I think they sold me a 8" field coil set since it doesn't quite follow the
contour of the inside of the motor. Since the coil is beefier I think this will
result in field weakening so to compensate for the reduced field I put 10 mil
aluminum flashing cutout behind the pole pieces and reassembled thus reducing
the gap from 20 mils to 10 mils. I also had to sand smooth the pole pieces
since some laminations were sticking up higher than others & to get a smooth
surface in order to reduce the gap.
I was curious if the magnetic field goes through the case substantially and I
should re-do with steel shims?
It appears most of the magnetic field goes out through the pole pieces to the
armature but I'm not sure about this since a coil by it's nature puts out a
bidirectional field.
BTW 3.3milli-ohms series field at 300A is 297W loss (I2r) and 6 milli-ohms is
540W loss so I should save 243 watts if it works ok. Presently the motor case
runs up to 180F on a 95F day after an hour of running (about 30 miles) in the
Cushman.
Best Regards,
Mark
__________________________________________________
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In a message dated 7/7/06 12:49:44 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
Rush@... writes:
<< Dennis,
Are you running this weekend?
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org >>
If there is no rain I will be at Firebird tonight just for practice.I will be
adjusting the brush rack to get more top end and slowing down the 1st 1/8
mile. Dennis
I can't remember if you're doing floodies, or AGM.
With AGM, I've got 1/4" over the batt. caps, and no
ill effects.
I don't wash that way-- wet rag/baking soda.
--- Seth Rothenberg <seth@...> wrote:
>
> I'm planning the new battery box for my car,
> probably using (for now) the existing one,
> which is set into the floor of the trunk, and
> just make a plastic cover. I understand that there
> should be some space around the sides to allow for
> a bit of expansion, but what about above the
> batteries?
>
> I plan to have an exhaust fan, so I'm wondering
> how much space I need above the batteries for
> air flow. Also, would it help to have room for
> airflow below or on the sides?
>
> Also, I read on this list two things -
> 1. It's good to set the batteries in a bed of
> Baking Soda (ok, I understand)
> 2. It's good to have a watertight battery box
> with a drain, and wash the batteries.
> (ok, I understand)
>
> ...and he asked, "But they can't both be right!?"
> ...and they answered: "You're right also!"
>
>
> Thanks
> Seth
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
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I always get that circuit messed up. This seems more appropriate?
Unfortunantely this has the diode drop during the series launch, but
probably is a heck of a lot better makeing a 1/2 output voltage jump
than the previous that would have to break under load.
With their experience with those hockey puck SCR's it seems we could use
scr's in place of the contacts. The zilla would maintain the gate drive
so it wouldn't drop out the scrs or try to attempt to switch because of
the PWM from the zilla. I think the scr's have a pretty low on resistance?
_______
Pack+__|B+ M+|_____________________
| | | _|_
| | _|_ / \ motor
| | ___ diode \___/ 1
| Zilla | |_____|/_______|
| | _|_ |\ |
| | / \ motor _|_
| | \___/ 2 ___ contactor
Pack-__|B- M-|______|______________|
|_______|
_______
Pack+__|B+ M+|_____________________
| | | _|_
| | _|_ / \ motor
| | scr diode \___/ 1
| Zilla | / |_____|/_______|
| | _|_ |\ |
| | / \ motor _|_
| | \___/ 2 scr
Pack-__|B- M-|______|______________| \
|_______|
JC Whitney - Everything AutomotiveHi EVerybody;
Check out "train Horns" Just the thing for yur EV!
Giving a Hoot!
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: JC Whitney Catalog
To: BOBRICE@...
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 8:11 AM
Subject: An Automotive Zoo
If you have images disabled or have trouble viewing this message,
please click here.
To ensure that you keep receiving JC Whitney emails, please add
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Peter Shabino wrote:
> Am I missing something here? If you ever closed "bubba" you would have
> a direct short between M+ and M- via D1 and D2.
Oops; you're correct! This is the standard rectactor circuit for
series/paralleling batteries. I redrew the circuit, but didn't really
look at it. He had the diodes backwards (for battery use). And for
motors, the diodes and contactors need to be interchanged, like this:
_______
Pack+__|B+ M+|_____________________
| | _|_ _|_
| | ___ Bubba #1 / \ motor #1
| | | \___/
| Zilla | |_____|/|______|
| | _|_ |\| |
| | / \ _|_
| | \___/ motor #2 ___ Bubba #2
Pack-__|B- M-|______|______________|
|_______|
This *will* work. With the contactors off, the motors are wired in
series. With the contactors on, the motors are in parallel. But you need
two (instead of three) big contactors, plus a big diode.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
Hey Mark
Every shim I've ever seen has been steel, I'd switch to steel shims. BTW it's
amazing how untrue some pole shoes faces can be isn't it.
Hope this helps.
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
"Mark E. Hanson" <mhanson12340@...> wrote:
Hi,
I was thinking of reducing the space between the pole pieces and my armature in
my 7" (15" long) series motor to improve efficiency (and in part due to a 3.3
milli-ohm, 28 uH coil sold to me by Warfield to replace my zorched 6milli-ohm 58
uH coil).
I think they sold me a 8" field coil set since it doesn't quite follow the
contour of the inside of the motor. Since the coil is beefier I think this will
result in field weakening so to compensate for the reduced field I put 10 mil
aluminum flashing cutout behind the pole pieces and reassembled thus reducing
the gap from 20 mils to 10 mils. I also had to sand smooth the pole pieces since
some laminations were sticking up higher than others & to get a smooth surface
in order to reduce the gap.
I was curious if the magnetic field goes through the case substantially and I
should re-do with steel shims?
It appears most of the magnetic field goes out through the pole pieces to the
armature but I'm not sure about this since a coil by it's nature puts out a
bidirectional field.
BTW 3.3milli-ohms series field at 300A is 297W loss (I2r) and 6 milli-ohms is
540W loss so I should save 243 watts if it works ok. Presently the motor case
runs up to 180F on a 95F day after an hour of running (about 30 miles) in the
Cushman.
Best Regards,
Mark
__________________________________________________
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---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
"Mark E. Hanson" wrote:
> I was thinking of reducing the space between the pole pieces and my
> armature in my 7" (15" long) series motor to improve efficiency
It will have a negligible effect on efficiency. Mainly, reducing the gap
increases the field strength, so the motor runs slower and has more
torque at any given voltage and current.
> (and in part due to a 3.3 milli-ohm, 28 uH coil sold to me by Warfield
> to replace my zorched 6 milli-ohm 58 uH coil).
If this is the field itself, then reducing the gap raises the
inductance.
> I think they sold me a 8" field coil set since it doesn't quite follow
> the contour of the inside of the motor.
I would think a full 1" difference in diameter would be easily
recognizable. Certainly it would really mess up the gap!
> I put 10 mil aluminum flashing cutout behind the pole pieces and
> reassembled thus reducing the gap from 20 mils to 10 mils.
Aluminum is the same as air magnetically. To reduce the gap, you have to
use *iron or steel* shims (something like old transformer laminations).
> I also had to sand smooth the pole pieces since some laminations were
> sticking up higher than others & to get a smooth surface in order to
> reduce the gap.
That's useful. If some laminations stick up more, then the magnetic flux
preferentially flows from them. Just like electrical arcing between two
rough surfaces; the arc concentrates between the closest points. The
concentrated flux increases magnetic losses, lowering efficiency.
It also adds wind resistance. There is a tremendously turbulent airflow
in the gap between rotor and stator!
High quality motors will carefully smooth, even polish the surfaces of
the rotor and stator in the gap to minimize these losses.
> I was curious if the magnetic field goes through the case substantially
Yes, it does. The complete magnetic circuit is:
- in thru a field coil,
its pole piece,
air gap to armature,
- thru the armature iron,
armature coils,
- out thru the armature iron,
air gap back to an adjacent field pole piece,
thru pole piece,
field coil,
to outside case,
- and thru case back to the original field coil's pole piece.
Thus the outside case is part of the magnetic path. You want to minimize
the gap between the pole pieces and the case.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>Well, I can't speak for the technical issues (other than to raise my
>eyebrows at the claims) but I can say this: if you google their
>phone number you get over a half-dozen different organizations, all
>at the same address - website design, race horses (ooh! "Hot
>Equestrians!), something about art and world
They also do website design, eh? Here's a tip: if you're going to
make extravagant claims about your product to bring in investors, it
might be to your benefit to swing by the local community college and
hire someone who actually knows something about design. And learn the
difference between a warrantee and a warranty.
> Oh - and the blue bike on the website is an obvious and very
>clumsy fake, which actually does appear
As is the red bike. It's a poor Photoshop job.
I'm sorry but everything about this yells SCAM. I hope I'm wrong. I
hope they've actually got a product.
--
The Electric Motorcycle Portal
http://www.electricmotorcycles.net/
Electric Motorcycle Listserv
http://www.electricmotorcycles.net/listserv
Hi EVerybody;
Time for a Tony Ascrizzi update. Shoulda posted LAST week. I have been up to
Tony's a few times in the last few weaks. The good news, first. I sorta wen't
off half cocked before, about the Dump Truck Runaway. Basing my Post on only
what I had heard from the news broadcast and talking to Tony on the fone. Turns
out the Construction co DID have some insurance! Good News, and they wanna
settle up! YES! When I was up at Tony's he had a constant flow of just PEOPLE,
in suits, perusing the wreckage, with cameras and clipboards. People from the
City of Wooster(Worcester)and almost EVERYwhere! People would just drive by,
stop, and gawk, both on Payne Street and the embankment above, as the trees and
fences were swept away, it is barren now. A green dumpster sits up top,
overlooking Tony's recreation of the World Trade Center scene. EVen SMELLS like
the WTC!The cleanup crew came in and scooped TONS of dirt away as well as making
neat piles of metal scrap, dead, melted motorcycles,!
tools and just STUFF. We dug some motors out of the wreckage, I think the Red
Beastie's motor and tranny are salvagable. we'll dig it out and roll it over and
drop them out. Tranny still clicks through the gears.I would imagine burnt
traction motor COULD be reserected by Warfield Electric?Question here, would
intense heat destroy the metal and magnetic properties of motors? They DO burn
dead motors to get the old insulation out anyhow? Jim? any ideas?I'm SURE you're
looking for and at a new Comm, for sure?
The fire COULD be a break for Tony? EVen though it wasn't for the poor
truck driver. He died of his inguries a few daze later. IF he get's a good lump
settlement from the Homeowners and Truk folks? He could take the money and run?
The 'hood there was going to hell, anyhow? You can hardly give away an old house
in an upcoming ghetto.YThey just don't " Total" out houses? one Guesstimate to
renovate or fix up the house ran 400k, that is an extreame, Hy ball figure.
House MAY be worth 100k, it could be subdivided into dozens of rentable rooms
for the illegal immigrant crowd? IOn that it would probably sell? Tony's ready
to move on. It is pretty depressing dealing with the City. THEY want tio upgrade
the house to current codes? This would cost a FORTUNE! Think old gas light
fixtures still around, in a house built in 1899! I woulda thought that
electricity was common in major cities in 1899? Worcester was a major player in
industrial America 100 years ago. EVen Pullman cars w!
ere BUILT there, right up to the 60's, electric ones for the Long Island RR.
These detaily things will hafta be hashed out in the next few weeks or
months. As the house has no electricity, but DUZ have water, still, damn city
turned off the GAS pretty quick.He can't LIVE there, still. A Temp Electric
service drop is being installed, but the City doesn't want it just hooked up,
bring everything up to code, bullshit. I can see Tony being diss-gruntled with
the City beauracracy! He HAS enough batteries in the cellar, hooked up that he
could run the UPstairs apartment , undamaged, for weeks IF he could get down
cellar to access the stuff down there. Tions of dirt, fast delivered by the
truck, have prevented access to the cellar. Tons of Tony's cool stuff SHOULD be
OK down there. Those of you who have been to the EAA Meetings there know what
the celler is like.The "Meeting Room" and good stuff EVerywhere. Controllers,
motors, cables, just STUFF we all can use.Should be OK? Sorta like opening up
those Egyptian Tombs after thousands of years.
Meanwile, out in the back yard, Tony had a few 'Conex" boxes for storage. The
20 foot shipping containers, you see everywhere. One just roasted all the tools
an' stuff inside! It didn't burn, steel is good that way, and they are of robust
construction. The other one was further away from the blaze. The Rabbit? Yes!
They, the insurance co is gunna FIX it. It is scorched on one side, plastic
mirror melded, all rubber gasketing and windshield cracked and destroyed, but
car still gioes! It is over at a friends place for now. It will be a challange
for the body shop for PARTS for sure! The news vids show the damn firepeople
climbing on it. Christ! If they just released the handbrake and PUSHED it in the
clear?Woulda saved some money and damage!?Probably woulda had to bust a window
to get in, but it would have been cheaper than fixing fire damage!I have extra
Rabbit windows that I havent thrown away..yet.
Any how that was an update. Stay tuned, more to follow EVentually.
Seeya
Bob
Jeff Shanab wrote:
> Unfortunantely this has the diode drop during the series launch, but
> probably is a heck of a lot better making a 1/2 output voltage jump
> than the previous that would have to break under load.
>
> With their experience with those hockey puck SCRs it seems we could use
> SCRs in place of the contacts. The zilla would maintain the gate drive
> so it wouldn't drop out the scrs or try to attempt to switch because of
> the PWM from the zilla. I think the SCRs have a pretty low on resistance?
> _______
> Pack+__|B+ M+|_____________________
> | | | _|_
> | | _|_ / \ motor 1
> | |SCR _\_/_ diode \___/
> | Zilla | / |_____|/|______|
> | | _|_ |\| |
> | | / \ _|_
> | | \___/ motor 2 _\_/_ SCR
> Pack-__|B- M-|______|______________| \
> |_______|
Yes; electrically, I think this would work. SCRs are basically diodes;
they have a roughly 1.5v on-state drop regardless of current. The diode
is a bit less; about a 1v drop regardless of current.
The main challenge is that the SCRs and diode will produce a lot of heat
at 1000 motor amps. In series, it's 1000a x 1v = 1000 watts in the
diode. In parallel, it's 2 x (500a x 1.5v) = 1500 watts in the SCRs.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
The GM vacuum pump that I got from a junk yard is starting to go out.
When I start the car (turn the car on) it does not always power up right
away. Today it took about 10 mins before I had a vacuum.
I have never been happy with the pump. It was good for the price I paid
but it is embarrassing having to explain to everyone what the horrendous
noise is on an otherwise quite ride.
I am looking for other options. Surly with all the hybrids on the road
someone out there has already tried one in an EV?
Brian
What could I use to substitute for a 3 phase motor, to test my boards
with? It needs to be low amps and small in size.
The 3 phase output needs to be tested but I am trying to avoid
something large so it doesn't kill my dwindling bench space for my test
fixture.
Mike
Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!
www.RotorDesign.com
You don't get it Roger..
That bike does not have the setup to do 214 at tops speed.
I never said 214 in the quater..
What we are poking fun at is it looks like a barley warmed over Sub 500 CC
street bike with outlandish claims, and no proof.
This kind of thing ruins the real claims that real Ev street bike actually
can do.
Some how the front brakes look like toys... compared to some real 1 liter
150 mph rice rockets I have actually seen.
The simple warning is ... I bet the specs are not real.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <rstockton@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 2:28 PM
Subject: RE: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
> Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> > OOOo! not only does a bike that looks like it has pedal bike
> > chain on it have 214 mph limits..
>
> It looks like standard motorcycle chain to me...
>
> > it has whimpy brakes...
>
> Really? Twin 308mm front discs and a 220mm rear are right up there
> performance wise. The fastest produciotn motorcycle (Suzuki Hayabusa)
> has twin 320s up front and a 240 in the rear. Something more mundane
> like the Zx6R[R] Ninjas have twin 300s up front and a single 220 in the
> rear.
>
> > Like Rod says.. it's a lot easier to write add copy that to
> > actually get records and time slips the hard way..
>
> First of all, they never said the bike would do 214mph in the 1/4 mile.
> The world speed record may stand at 134-odd mph, yet the Killacycle has
> exceeded 150mph in the 1/4mi.
>
> Second of all, notice the $90k price tag for this puppy! If they were
> making these claims for a $10k bike I would be very skeptical, but at
> $90K I am far more willing to believe that they can afford the sort of
> technology that might approach these sorts of performance claims. They
> may still be way off on their performance claims (who knows if they've
> actually built and tested a bike yet), but throwing that sort of money
> at the problem I have little doubt they can provide a ride that will at
> least achieve the same 150mph-ish top speeds as the (much less
> expensive) Killacycle, though perhaps not in the 1/4 mile.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
Valence
Badicheck
Toyta
Honda
Ford
Lee Hart Batbalencer
Manzanita Micro Reg centered charging
ETC...
There are a bout 3 to 6 of us here on the list that have some form of BMS
from a stack of regs to full data collecetion and charger/controller
interfaces.
Yea What is a BMS in your mind and what CAN preform as a adequate BMS are
two totally differnt things.
To have you brush your hands over a LOT of effort from a LOT of skilled
folks is a insult.
What do you have??? and what is the state of control and reporting that make
a "Real BMS" in your mind?
There's not much I don't know about every battery while I charge my Fiero
with Mk3 Regs. I don't dare charge the car without the BMS hooked up and
working.. there is that much
data and control. Some how I cut the link to the front 9 batteries
yesterday.. and I have to climb under the car and find the open. Great
sport...
I know I have a BMS ,I keep having to find out what ripped it out of the
EV.. I am thinking about armored data cable runs....
A few more Tye Wraps might help also....
Are volts real time, hi setpoint, low setpoint, Status, heatsink temp,
battery temp, Max V since last charge, Min V since last charge, Good enough
data points?
The stat byte tells if over temp, over temp real time, dissapation channel
active, or enabled? So.. Yea I can data log and dissapate power, and I can
control the charge and or controller with my BMS.
What else am I missing???
The couple megs of GUI code that would let the unwashed masses play with it
on thier Palm or PC while doing E-mail???
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
Yea I have a BMS...
And a few more good ideas....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <rstockton@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 2:31 PM
Subject: RE: Taurus EV
> Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> > Funny I know of about 1/2 dozzen...
>
> You must have much different BMS expectations than I do then. ;^>
>
> If you know of at least 6 BMS systems suitable for on-road EVs that are
> ready and available for commercial/retail purchase, how about naming
> them?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
Yes that is correct.
Or bring enough adapter cables to get into the 175 blue Andersons.
I sure wish I had speced SB 120 s The 175s have the highest insertion forces
of all the SBconnectors.
Pinched fingers and blood blister are the norm if you are not carfull.
The SB 120s click in and out like Butter.
I have 44 PFC50s out there..so the defactor standard is the 175s. Oh
Well ya live and ya learn.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Farver" <mfarver@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)
> Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> >Bring it, I will charge it.
> >
> >Wire your charge port so I can stuff 12000 watts of what ever you need
into
> >your car.
> >
> >
>
> Might be wise to specify a style of connector. I think blue anderson
> 175 is currently your connector of choice?
>
> Mark
>
Rich Rudman wrote:
> That bike does not have the setup to do 214 at tops speed.
> I never said 214 in the quater..
No, but you alluded to performance claims requiring time slips backing
them up before they can be taken seriously. Time slips around here tend
to mean a run down the drag strip.
What sort of setup do you think is missing to hit 214MPH? I've done
150+ riding two up on a Suzuki GS1150 with inferior brakes and similar
chain drive - the two items you chose to comment on.
> What we are poking fun at is it looks like a barley warmed
> over Sub 500 CC street bike with outlandish claims, and no
> proof.
I agree that is looks more like a 1/2 litre bike than 1L+ superbike, and
that the claims may be exaggerated, however, with a $90K pricetag I
maintain that they can afford to throw the sort of technology at this
that you and most other EV racers can only dream about. You'd be amazed
at how much more performance you could get out of Goldie if you had,
say, $80K more to invest in her than you've got in her to date.
> Some how the front brakes look like toys... compared to some
> real 1 liter 150 mph rice rockets I have actually seen.
Others have suggested that the images are mockups, not photos of a real
product; read the specs, they describe components that, as Paul Compton
notes, are if not state of the art, are within spitting distance of it.
> The simple warning is ... I bet the specs are not real.
I certainly wouldn't bet against you on that ;^>
But I would bet that if they build one of these, it will come closer to
their predictions than you think.
Cheers,
Roger.
Rich Rudman wrote:
> I sure wish I had speced SB 120 s The 175s have the highest
> insertion forces of all the SBconnectors.
Hey, Rich, it could be worse; the SBX175 insertion force makes the SB175
seem like butter in comparison. I use SB175s between my battery packs
and my automated test setup, and SBX175s between the setup and the
dynamic loads (I need the SBX's extra pilot contacts to allow the data
acquisition unit to automatically shut the loads off at end of
discharge). You can't mate/unmate an SBX175 directly, but rather have
to "walk" it in/out of position by wiggling it side to side.
Cheers,
Roger.
Mike Phillips wrote:
> What could I use to substitute for a 3 phase motor, to test my
> boards with? It needs to be low amps and small in size.
3-phase motors are available in all sizes, from huge to tiny. Aircraft
in particular use lots of very small ones.
Another possibility is a motor equivalent circuit. An induction motor
looks like a resistor and inductor in series. The resistor is the
winding resistance and mechanical load on the shaft. The inductor is
from the winding inductance (combined rotor and stator). A 3-phase
version would consist of 3 resistors and 3 inductors, wired in either
delta or wye (same as for a real motor).
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
EV Digest 5628
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
by "Evan Tuer" <evan.tuer@...>
2) Commercial BMSs (was RE: Taurus EV)
by "Roger Stockton" <rstockton@...>
3) Re: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
by Steve Condie <pdkluge@...>
4) RE: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
by David Dymaxion <david_dymaxion@...>
5) Re: Taurus EV
by "Stefan T. Peters" <stefan@...>
6) Re: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
by mreish <mreish@...>
7) S10
by BFratto@...
8) Re: 3 Phase motor substitute?
by "Mike Phillips" <mikep_95133@...>
9) Re: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
by "Philippe Borges" <philippe.borges@...>
10) Re: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)
by "Rich Rudman" <rmanzan@...>
11) Salt Flats Racing, Electrics allowed 130 club
by David Dymaxion <david_dymaxion@...>
12) Re: Taurus EV - battery equalizers
by Rod Hower <rodhower@...>
13) Re: 3 Phase motor substitute?
by Meta Bus <metabus@...>
14) Motor Controller For GEM -- help!!
by "J Mac" <jmac300@...>
15) Re: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
by "Evan Tuer" <evan.tuer@...>
16) Re: Commercial BMSs (was RE: Taurus EV)
by "Edward Ang" <edwardang2005@...>
17) Neon John's status
by "Pool, Ryan" <Ryan.Pool@...>
18) Re: S10
by Mbachandz@...
19) Whr/mile
by "jmygann" <jmygann@...>
20) Re: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
by mreish <mreish@...>
21) Re: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
by Steve Condie <pdkluge@...>
22) RE: S10
by "Jody Dewey" <jodydewey@...>
23) Re: Motor Controller For GEM -- help!!
by Bob Bath <civicwithacord@...>
24) Re: Whr/mile
by Robert Lemke <robertlemke@...>
25) Re: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
by "Evan Tuer" <evan.tuer@...>
On 7/7/06, mreish <mreish@...> wrote:
> As is the red bike. It's a poor Photoshop job.
Yes, it's clearly based on a picture of a real (high performance)
bike, but with fairings and the end of a motor airbrushed on with
photoshop or similar. Click on the image to enlarge it (a bit) and
you'll easily see the difference in texture between the real and
imaginary parts :)
Rich Rudman wrote:
> Valence
Possibly the best example, but I believe it is oriented toward looking
after the batteries during charge, and it is only available for
Valence's own Li batteries.
> Badicheck
Is this still in production?
> Toyta
> Honda
> Ford
What have they got for pure EVs, and is any of it commercially available
for use in EVs we build?
> Lee Hart Batbalencer
There's certainly potential here, but no cigar yet. At the present
time, this is not available as a finished commercial product and it
strictly looks after charging of batteries; no means of preventing the
user from abusing the batteries, nor of informing the user of immiment
battery service or failure. These features could be added, but don't
presently exist.
> Manzanita Micro Reg centered charging
Again, there is potential here, but no cigar yet. I don't believe the
Mk3s are commercially available yet, and the Mk1/Mk2's aren't suitable
for prime time in their present packaging (susceptible to moisture,
etc.). Again, this is a system that focusses primarily on doing
something for the batteries during charge (and I believe the jury is
still out on whether what they do is optimal or not). The under-voltage
indication offers the potential of notifying the user of a battery
fault/failure, but only after the fact; by the time the idiot light goes
on, the battery has been abused. The system does not have the ability
to protect the battery from the user. The Mk3's ability to communicate
data certainly should allow a BMS to be built on their foundation, but
they don't constitute one on their own. Get back to me when you have
some sort of node for sale that plugs into the MK3 comms bus and
notifies the user when the batteries start looking like they need
attention (before one or more get overdischarged), and interfaces to the
controller to prevent the user from dragging a battery below some
minimum safe voltage, etc.
> What do you have??? and what is the state of control and
> reporting that make a "Real BMS" in your mind?
For my own EV/research I've got a Lee Hart Balancer (in progress) and an
HP data acquisition unit with 40 channels of 5.5 digit A/D and 20
channels of dry contact outputs, of, and the ever faithful RS232
E-Meter, of course. None of these constitute a real BMS as far as I'm
concerned, but they are all useful tools to help me refine my short list
of features for a real BMS.
I think the comments I've offered above give a pretty good idea of the
sort of features I presently think ought to be in a BMS.
Cheers,
Roger.
Oh, and let's add that they claim that they have a registered trademark for
their "miracle material" - "Barotex". Unfortunately, no one seems to have told
the US Patent and Trademark Office about it. Also: the address for the
"company" is a UPS Store mailbox. Kind of hard to build 200+MPH motorcycles in
there. A little cramped, don't you think?
Seriously - why do people do these things? Even if some poor sucker sends them
a "deposit" - is it really worth the hassle (and potentially serious legal
problems?) And do people actually send money to random websites with clumsy
photoshopped items with humorously specific future "ship dates"? Without doing
any checking at all? I mean, with the internet, it's pretty easy to find all of
the red flags I've pointed out in minutes. Don't people Google before they send
money?
Steve Condie <pdkluge@...> wrote: Well, I can't speak for the technical
issues (other than to raise my eyebrows at the claims) but I can say this: if
you google their phone number you get over a half-dozen different organizations,
all at the same address - website design, race horses (ooh! "Hot Equestrians!),
something about art and world peace, non-profits, "charitable trusts", etc.
Generally not the sign of a solid business. No evidence of ever having
actually created anything which, uh, actually runs. Also, the various
"corporate" identities listed - Timotca, GoWheels, etc. - don't show up on the
databases kept by the California or Nevada state governments. Then there's the
matter of the $2,877 wheels they're selling which are so good because they're
made of "Barotex and titanium". I'll leave that to the metallurgists among you.
But my general suspicion is, well - I wouldn't invest too much time with these
guys without actually seeing something in person
that made sense.
Oh - and the blue bike on the website is an obvious and very clumsy fake,
which actually does appear to have used a picture of a bicycle as its base -
although it's hard to tell because the chain sort of disappears after it goes
behind the frame!
Roderick Wilde wrote:
Hi Jim, Why were they talking to you about their AC drives. Their site says
246 bhp at 12,500 rpm. We ALL know this is only possible with AC. I have had
a few DCs at 12,500 rpms and they are hard to disassemble. In fact I still
have one somewhere from Firebird Raceway in Phoenix, Arizona that exploded
on the straight stretch. When the windings fly out of the armature at that
rpm they entangle themselves in the fields so completely it is like ancient
roots around stones and logs. I have used very big hammers and chisels. They
just don't come apart. This is much different that a quick 20,000 rpm com
explosion from a missed shift. In this situation the com bars come out
rather quickly and all twisted and land all over the pavement This happens
in a fraction of a second. Hey Jim, I apologize if I was not supposed to see
what was on a web site. I hope I didn't get you in trouble with the AC boys.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Husted"
To:
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 5:56 PM
Subject: RE: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
> Hey All
>
> Well nothing like inviting a bull into a china shop, ROD!
> Here's the scoop
> I was contacted by Jay of GoWheels (who was refered to me by another list
> member) about doing some motor upgrades for these bikes recently. As
> someone who does his homework (at least trys) I wanted to get some outside
> input and thoughts. Having been blessed enough to have plopped into this
> new world via Wayland, I've worked hard to earn my own merit, but I'm also
> the first to admit that I don't know EVery damn thing either 8^ o
>
> Being I'm close to a gaggle of EV race legends it's nice to pick their
> heads and bounce stuff off them. Even on some black projects I like to
> get feedback, it's because I want to do all I can to meet a projects goal,
> and because I respect the insight.
>
> Well today was a real EV day, as I talked with 4 EV'ers, those being Rod,
> Jay Donnaway, Matt Graham, and FT. Being Rod had called me (more on that
> in another post) I asked him to have a look at the Gowheels site and let
> me know what he thought? I come home to this thread, lmao. Hey Rod, Paul
> Rever only needed 2 lights to report the British were coming okay, lmao
> 8^ P Now I doubt any secrets were revieled (I mean he has a web site up)
> but I'm thinking you're outside the secret of trust thingy for a bit Rod,
> LMAO!!!!
>
> After Rod, Jay Donnaway called whining that I didn't include the wiring
> diagram for the Gamera 9 which a quick fax seemed to stop that is until he
> discovered I called 2 studs the same number, hehehe, Opp's. I still have
> to load the pics but Jay has posted some up at his site of his Gamera9, I
> cant wait to get the ride that's been promised 8^ )
>
> I had to call Matt after that to make sure he still liked me after I
> razzed him last week and to see what the east coast boys were up to. We
> got to talk about WZ's last run, I then had to listen to razzing like "if
> the Siamese 8's Soooo awesome how come John still has vibration, that kind
> of stuff, always a treat talking with Matt. While talking with Matt, FT
> called.
>
> I called FT back and caught up with him but also talked about the
> Gowheels site (seemed Rod's been busy!, lmao harder). Well FT told me he
> called Gowheels up and talked with Jay. FT seemed at least semi-impressed
> and stated that they already build high end gas bikes through another
> division. I didn't get all the poop from FT, as he's been busier than a 2
> peckered goat in a field of nannies and had to keep things short 8^ o
> I actually invited Jay from Gowheels to sign up at the list here (as I do
> to any who are not) for the insight I believe this group could add. Hey
> Jay if you happen to be lurking, sorry if any "cat" has been let out of
> the bag.
> Being that the cat has been let out of the bag so to speak, it seems
> there are already different camps as to what the performance of this might
> actually be.
> Anyway, my bad, thought Rod could be trusted to be ... (stop laughing
> Rich!)
> Cya all
> Jim Husted
> Hi-Torque Electric
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs.Try it free.
>
>
>
>
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My BS needle is quivering on this one, too.
It takes over 4 times as much power to go 214 mph vs. 150 mph. Think
for a moment how many bikes or cars can break 200 mph. Precious few.
It is difficult to do even with a modified car.
It takes about as much power as White Zombie makes to go 214 mph. But
instead of doing full power for 13 seconds, you need to hold full
power for around 90 seconds or more. The NEDRA guys are using around
200 to 300 pounds of motor for < 15 seconds for this much power. Even
the Killacycle, light as it is, has about 200 lbs of motors. The land
speed racers are using around 400 pounds of electric motor for their
runs. I think the ProEV guys have about 300 or 400 lbs of electric
motors.
So how does this 457 pound motorcyle hold enough pounds of batteries
to make around 300 kW, and enough pounds of motor to not melt on the
way to 214 mph?
I really would like this to be true. I'll be the first to happily
announce they went 214 mph on the Salt Flats. Heck, just go 165 mph
and take the record, no shame in that speed.
--- Roger Stockton <rstockton@...> wrote:
> Rich Rudman wrote:
> > That bike does not have the setup to do 214 at tops speed.
>
> ...
> What sort of setup do you think is missing to hit 214MPH? I've
> done
> 150+ riding two up on a Suzuki GS1150 with inferior brakes and
> similar
> chain drive - the two items you chose to comment on.
> ...
> that the claims may be exaggerated, however, with a $90K pricetag I
> maintain that they can afford to throw the sort of technology at
> this
> that you and most other EV racers can only dream about. You'd be
> amazed
> at how much more performance you could get out of Goldie if you
> had,
> say, $80K more to invest in her than you've got in her to date.
>
> > The simple warning is ... I bet the specs are not real.
>
> I certainly wouldn't bet against you on that ;^>
>
> But I would bet that if they build one of these, it will come
> closer to
> their predictions than you think.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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Rich Rudman wrote:
> Valence
> Badicheck
> Toyta
> Honda
> Ford
> Lee Hart Batbalencer
> Manzanita Micro Reg centered charging
>
> ETC...
>
>
> There are a bout 3 to 6 of us here on the list that have some form of BMS
> from a stack of regs to full data collecetion and charger/controller
> interfaces.
>
> Yea What is a BMS in your mind and what CAN preform as a adequate BMS are
> two totally differnt things.
>
> To have you brush your hands over a LOT of effort from a LOT of skilled
> folks is a insult.
>
> What do you have??? and what is the state of control and reporting that make
> a "Real BMS" in your mind?
>
> There's not much I don't know about every battery while I charge my Fiero
> with Mk3 Regs. I don't dare charge the car without the BMS hooked up and
> working.. there is that much
> data and control. Some how I cut the link to the front 9 batteries
> yesterday.. and I have to climb under the car and find the open. Great
> sport...
> I know I have a BMS ,I keep having to find out what ripped it out of the
> EV.. I am thinking about armored data cable runs....
> A few more Tye Wraps might help also....
>
> Are volts real time, hi setpoint, low setpoint, Status, heatsink temp,
> battery temp, Max V since last charge, Min V since last charge, Good enough
> data points?
> The stat byte tells if over temp, over temp real time, dissapation channel
> active, or enabled? So.. Yea I can data log and dissapate power, and I can
> control the charge and or controller with my BMS.
>
> What else am I missing???
> The couple megs of GUI code that would let the unwashed masses play with it
> on thier Palm or PC while doing E-mail???
>
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
> Yea I have a BMS...
> And a few more good ideas....
>
>
I think perchance they are referring to Battery Management Systems, not
Battery Monitoring Systems. Your regs *are* the bees knees, and Lee's
designs are almost sublime in their simplicity.
But they are not fully automatic systems. They help *us* manage the
bats, and properly set our chargers, and even baby-sit the batteries at
times. Some even let us know when a bat is going bad, if we dutifully
check the data. But how many current systems simply get set once by a
bat installer, and manage the bats & charger for us? No data needed for
us mere humans, besides a colorfull yes/no/maybe light ;-)
I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm honestly curious if any current
systems do perform full battery management, as in:
They set the charger for the batteries needs (share a charger between a
flooded, and an AGM car, and a Li-poly car by simply plugging one or the
other in? It will need to happen if EVs are to become mainstream), they
tell me when to replace a battery or have the pack looked at by a tech,
they keep the pack balanced without any other action besides plugging it
in every night and walking away. Basically they watch all the data and
perform the appropriate action themselves, or flash a bright red light
at me if they can't fix the problem.
Yes, I know that's a lot, and how silly are we as humans to need all
this hand-holding by our (not always) faithful little electronic
helpers? You may certainly not, even I may not given some time with a
book or two. But the general population does insist on it, for whatever
reason (insert flame-happy topic here), if they are to accept EVs into
their daily lives.
P.S. Although I suspect that a set of Mk3s with a central "brain",
combined with an uber-flexible current/voltage programmable charger, and
a few more odds and end, might fit the bill nicely...
~ Peanut Gallery ~
>Some how the front brakes look like toys... compared to some real 1 liter
>150 mph rice rockets I have actually seen.
Hi Mr. Madman,
The picture of the red machine they have on their website is a
photoshoped cut and paste job of one of those 150 mph rice rockets.
They just botched it up that bad.
--
The Electric Motorcycle Portal
http://www.electricmotorcycles.net/
Electric Motorcycle Listserv
http://www.electricmotorcycles.net/listserv
I just noticed Chevy stopped the S10 line in 2004 and doesn't seem to have
a replacement small pickup truck? (yeah, I'm behind 2 years :)
Sure, there are countless S10's out on the road. However, what is the next
new truck that is so convenient to convert?
Thanks, Ben
Excellent! The other issue is charging. It uses the igbt's and at
least part of the motor to charge the pack. So I would need an
inductor that is tuned for the circuit. Or would I?
Mike
>
> Another possibility is a motor equivalent circuit. An induction motor
> looks like a resistor and inductor in series. The resistor is the
> winding resistance and mechanical load on the shaft. The inductor is
> from the winding inductance (combined rotor and stator). A 3-phase
> version would consist of 3 resistors and 3 inductors, wired in either
> delta or wye (same as for a real motor).
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
Their claim alone are not incredible...
for that money it's possible to make a bike go very fast and relatively far
but their way of presenting show they are not serious which turn their
claims becoming uncredible and their webpages ridiculous.
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "mreish" <mreish@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 3:47 PM
Subject: Re: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
> >Well, I can't speak for the technical issues (other than to raise my
> >eyebrows at the claims) but I can say this: if you google their
> >phone number you get over a half-dozen different organizations, all
> >at the same address - website design, race horses (ooh! "Hot
> >Equestrians!), something about art and world
>
> They also do website design, eh? Here's a tip: if you're going to
> make extravagant claims about your product to bring in investors, it
> might be to your benefit to swing by the local community college and
> hire someone who actually knows something about design. And learn the
> difference between a warrantee and a warranty.
>
> > Oh - and the blue bike on the website is an obvious and very
> >clumsy fake, which actually does appear
>
> As is the red bike. It's a poor Photoshop job.
>
> I'm sorry but everything about this yells SCAM. I hope I'm wrong. I
> hope they've actually got a product.
>
> --
>
> The Electric Motorcycle Portal
> http://www.electricmotorcycles.net/
>
> Electric Motorcycle Listserv
> http://www.electricmotorcycles.net/listserv
>
Well get crackin' Otmar...
We need more high voltage controllers!
Yea I know no rest for the wicked...
I certainly know that right now..
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Otmar" <otlists@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 1:36 AM
Subject: Re: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)
> > Twin controllers would probably make John's car go faster. (It
> >would certainly make Otmar smile.)
>
> What!? You want to overload me even more!?
> My backlog is embarrassingly long already. I'm sure he's fine with one. ;)
> --
> -Otmar-
> 914 EV, California Poppy,
> http://evcl.com/914/
>
> http://www.CafeElectric.com/
> The Zilla factory has moved to Corvallis Oregon.
> Now accepting resumes. Please see:
> http://www.cafeelectric.com/jobs.html
>
The 130 club is the only class where you can run a stock vehicle on
the Salt Flats. You must go between 130 and 140 mph to become a
member of the club. Many vehicles don't make it.
<http://www.saltflats.com>
Good news, this year electrics are now specifically allowed! They are
listed as OK in the rules:
• Only gasoline, diesel, ethanol, bio-diesel, electric, propane, or
natural gas fuels may be used - NO Nitrous Oxide, Methanol or
Nitro-fueled vehicles will be allowed.
My personal angst, I don't have an electric vehicle to run yet! But
I'm working on it!
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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> Mike Phillips wrote:
>
>What could I use to substitute for a 3 phase motor, to test my
>boards with? It needs to be low amps and small in size.
>
Mike,
Check out eBay item #150007182777
(http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150007182777)
which is a motion-control development kit for the ubiquitous TI
MS320F240 DSP controller-- the kit comes with a 50w 3-phase inverter &
motor. Might fit the bill in more ways that one.
See http://www.technosoftmotion.com/products/TOOLS_MCK.htm for details
on the kit. I got one of these a while back, but it has been
shelf-sitting as I hack my AVS & Capstone.
Regards,
Jim
I have an '02 GEM, eL.
It's brand new for me.
-41 Error Code appeared on the battery discharge indicator on Monday &
Tuesday a few times.
Here's what the service manual says is wrong:
Open Thermal Protector or Transistor Over Temperature
And here's what the service manual says to do about it:
Motor Controller is in thermal cut back. Allow to cool & the status code
should disappear. If problem persists after the Motor Controller has
cooled, replace the Motor Controller.
As of Thursday evening -- nothing. The car won't turn on. No response.
And fully charged.
It says that the controller also generates drive system status info that is
displayed on the battery discharge indicator, which is blank.
So, being a newbie with all of this I have no idea what any of it means &
how to interpret the information .. except that the GEM won't work!
I'm going to replace the 12V fuse .. maybe it's that simple.
I'm curious what it costs to replace a Motor Controller .. who would do this
(I'm in Santa Cruz County) .. and are there different ones to choose from?
Thank You!!
_________________________________________________________________
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AirLab GAIA I power system
- Complete design to prevent any intentional or unintentional abuse
- Modular design to ease capacity increase without changing system voltage
- Flexible form factor to most efficiently utilize available space
- Graphical user interface
www.airlabcorp.com
However, it is only available for OEM's. Stay tune to the website because
we are steadily adding more info.
On 7/7/06, Roger Stockton <rstockton@...> wrote:
>
> Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> > Valence
>
> Possibly the best example, but I believe it is oriented toward looking
> after the batteries during charge, and it is only available for
> Valence's own Li batteries.
>
> > Badicheck
>
> Is this still in production?
>
> > Toyta
> > Honda
> > Ford
>
> What have they got for pure EVs, and is any of it commercially available
> for use in EVs we build?
>
> > Lee Hart Batbalencer
>
> There's certainly potential here, but no cigar yet. At the present
> time, this is not available as a finished commercial product and it
> strictly looks after charging of batteries; no means of preventing the
> user from abusing the batteries, nor of informing the user of immiment
> battery service or failure. These features could be added, but don't
> presently exist.
>
> > Manzanita Micro Reg centered charging
>
> Again, there is potential here, but no cigar yet. I don't believe the
> Mk3s are commercially available yet, and the Mk1/Mk2's aren't suitable
> for prime time in their present packaging (susceptible to moisture,
> etc.). Again, this is a system that focusses primarily on doing
> something for the batteries during charge (and I believe the jury is
> still out on whether what they do is optimal or not). The under-voltage
> indication offers the potential of notifying the user of a battery
> fault/failure, but only after the fact; by the time the idiot light goes
> on, the battery has been abused. The system does not have the ability
> to protect the battery from the user. The Mk3's ability to communicate
> data certainly should allow a BMS to be built on their foundation, but
> they don't constitute one on their own. Get back to me when you have
> some sort of node for sale that plugs into the MK3 comms bus and
> notifies the user when the batteries start looking like they need
> attention (before one or more get overdischarged), and interfaces to the
> controller to prevent the user from dragging a battery below some
> minimum safe voltage, etc.
>
> > What do you have??? and what is the state of control and
> > reporting that make a "Real BMS" in your mind?
>
> For my own EV/research I've got a Lee Hart Balancer (in progress) and an
> HP data acquisition unit with 40 channels of 5.5 digit A/D and 20
> channels of dry contact outputs, of, and the ever faithful RS232
> E-Meter, of course. None of these constitute a real BMS as far as I'm
> concerned, but they are all useful tools to help me refine my short list
> of features for a real BMS.
>
> I think the comments I've offered above give a pretty good idea of the
> sort of features I presently think ought to be in a BMS.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
>
--
Edward Ang
AirLab
I've seen some posts asking about why he's been silent so long. He's been
having problems sending emails to the list lately. He made some changes to his
web hosting and now is having issues. It seems as if his hosting provider is
spam blacklisted. I've been trying to help him out a little with it. Since
people are curious about his status I thought I'd share.
He thinks he'll be back on in about a month or so.
Ryan
Ben,
The Chevy S10 and GMC Sonoma were replaced by the Chevy Colorado and GMC
Canyon. As with most vehicles the new models are heavier (and in my opinion
better looking) than the vehicles that they replaced.
Mike Bachand
Denver Electric Vehicle Council (DEVC)
Kawasaki Ninja EV
In my mind this is a good test of efficiency ....
Are there any Whr/mile figures for EV trips? Round trips with average
speed?
Some e-bike folks are claiming 18-20 Whr/mile No pedaling - Round trip
Hmmm, curiouser and curiouser. Seems like one Edward J. Lashlee (aka "Jay
Lashlee") from Orange County, California, was sentenced to three years in
federal prison in 2003 for promoting bogus offshore trusts in a tax fraud
scheme. Then "J. Lashlee, Trustee International Advisor" shows up as a bcontact
for the "TINOTCA" organization which has thre same phone number and Orange
County address (that is, UPS Store mailbox number) as "GoWheels" with their 200+
MPH electric motorcycle with "Barotex" wheels.
Who was that you said you talked to, Jim?
Steve Condie <pdkluge@...> wrote: Oh, and let's add that they claim that
they have a registered trademark for their "miracle material" - "Barotex".
Unfortunately, no one seems to have told the US Patent and Trademark Office
about it. Also: the address for the "company" is a UPS Store mailbox. Kind of
hard to build 200+MPH motorcycles in there. A little cramped, don't you think?
Seriously - why do people do these things? Even if some poor sucker sends them
a "deposit" - is it really worth the hassle (and potentially serious legal
problems?) And do people actually send money to random websites with clumsy
photoshopped items with humorously specific future "ship dates"? Without doing
any checking at all? I mean, with the internet, it's pretty easy to find all of
the red flags I've pointed out in minutes. Don't people Google before they send
money?
Steve Condie
wrote: Well, I can't speak for the technical issues (other than to raise my
eyebrows at the claims) but I can say this: if you google their phone number
you get over a half-dozen different organizations, all at the same address -
website design, race horses (ooh! "Hot Equestrians!), something about art and
world peace, non-profits, "charitable trusts", etc. Generally not the sign of a
solid business. No evidence of ever having actually created anything which,
uh, actually runs. Also, the various "corporate" identities listed - Timotca,
GoWheels, etc. - don't show up on the databases kept by the California or Nevada
state governments. Then there's the matter of the $2,877 wheels they're selling
which are so good because they're made of "Barotex and titanium". I'll leave
that to the metallurgists among you. But my general suspicion is, well - I
wouldn't invest too much time with these guys without actually seeing something
in person
that made sense.
Oh - and the blue bike on the website is an obvious and very clumsy fake,
which actually does appear to have used a picture of a bicycle as its base -
although it's hard to tell because the chain sort of disappears after it goes
behind the frame!
Roderick Wilde wrote:
Hi Jim, Why were they talking to you about their AC drives. Their site says
246 bhp at 12,500 rpm. We ALL know this is only possible with AC. I have had
a few DCs at 12,500 rpms and they are hard to disassemble. In fact I still
have one somewhere from Firebird Raceway in Phoenix, Arizona that exploded
on the straight stretch. When the windings fly out of the armature at that
rpm they entangle themselves in the fields so completely it is like ancient
roots around stones and logs. I have used very big hammers and chisels. They
just don't come apart. This is much different that a quick 20,000 rpm com
explosion from a missed shift. In this situation the com bars come out
rather quickly and all twisted and land all over the pavement This happens
in a fraction of a second. Hey Jim, I apologize if I was not supposed to see
what was on a web site. I hope I didn't get you in trouble with the AC boys.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Husted"
To:
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 5:56 PM
Subject: RE: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
> Hey All
>
> Well nothing like inviting a bull into a china shop, ROD!
> Here's the scoop
> I was contacted by Jay of GoWheels (who was refered to me by another list
> member) about doing some motor upgrades for these bikes recently. As
> someone who does his homework (at least trys) I wanted to get some outside
> input and thoughts. Having been blessed enough to have plopped into this
> new world via Wayland, I've worked hard to earn my own merit, but I'm also
> the first to admit that I don't know EVery damn thing either 8^ o
>
> Being I'm close to a gaggle of EV race legends it's nice to pick their
> heads and bounce stuff off them. Even on some black projects I like to
> get feedback, it's because I want to do all I can to meet a projects goal,
> and because I respect the insight.
>
> Well today was a real EV day, as I talked with 4 EV'ers, those being Rod,
> Jay Donnaway, Matt Graham, and FT. Being Rod had called me (more on that
> in another post) I asked him to have a look at the Gowheels site and let
> me know what he thought? I come home to this thread, lmao. Hey Rod, Paul
> Rever only needed 2 lights to report the British were coming okay, lmao
> 8^ P Now I doubt any secrets were revieled (I mean he has a web site up)
> but I'm thinking you're outside the secret of trust thingy for a bit Rod,
> LMAO!!!!
>
> After Rod, Jay Donnaway called whining that I didn't include the wiring
> diagram for the Gamera 9 which a quick fax seemed to stop that is until he
> discovered I called 2 studs the same number, hehehe, Opp's. I still have
> to load the pics but Jay has posted some up at his site of his Gamera9, I
> cant wait to get the ride that's been promised 8^ )
>
> I had to call Matt after that to make sure he still liked me after I
> razzed him last week and to see what the east coast boys were up to. We
> got to talk about WZ's last run, I then had to listen to razzing like "if
> the Siamese 8's Soooo awesome how come John still has vibration, that kind
> of stuff, always a treat talking with Matt. While talking with Matt, FT
> called.
>
> I called FT back and caught up with him but also talked about the
> Gowheels site (seemed Rod's been busy!, lmao harder). Well FT told me he
> called Gowheels up and talked with Jay. FT seemed at least semi-impressed
> and stated that they already build high end gas bikes through another
> division. I didn't get all the poop from FT, as he's been busier than a 2
> peckered goat in a field of nannies and had to keep things short 8^ o
> I actually invited Jay from Gowheels to sign up at the list here (as I do
> to any who are not) for the insight I believe this group could add. Hey
> Jay if you happen to be lurking, sorry if any "cat" has been let out of
> the bag.
> Being that the cat has been let out of the bag so to speak, it seems
> there are already different camps as to what the performance of this might
> actually be.
> Anyway, my bad, thought Rod could be trusted to be ... (stop laughing
> Rich!)
> Cya all
> Jim Husted
> Hi-Torque Electric
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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>
>
>
>
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The replacement for the S10 is the Chevy Colorado.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
Behalf Of BFratto@...
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 12:39 PM
To: ev@...
Subject: S10
I just noticed Chevy stopped the S10 line in 2004 and doesn't seem to have
a replacement small pickup truck? (yeah, I'm behind 2 years :)
Sure, there are countless S10's out on the road. However, what is the next
new truck that is so convenient to convert?
Thanks, Ben
> I have an '02 GEM, eL.
> It's brand new for me.
>
> -41 Error Code appeared on the battery discharge
> indicator on Monday &
> Tuesday a few times.
>
> Here's what the service manual says is wrong:
> Open Thermal Protector or Transistor Over
> Temperature
>
> And here's what the service manual says to do about
> it:
> Motor Controller is in thermal cut back. Allow to
> cool & the status code
> should disappear. If problem persists after the
> Motor Controller has
> cooled, replace the Motor Controller.
>
> As of Thursday evening -- nothing. The car won't
> turn on. No response.
> And fully charged.
>
> It says that the controller also generates drive
> system status info that is
> displayed on the battery discharge indicator, which
> is blank.
>
> So, being a newbie with all of this I have no idea
> what any of it means &
> how to interpret the information .. except that the
> GEM won't work!
>
> I'm going to replace the 12V fuse .. maybe it's that
> simple.
>
> I'm curious what it costs to replace a Motor
> Controller .. who would do this
> (I'm in Santa Cruz County) .. and are there
> different ones to choose from?
>
DC controllers are made by Curtis (1231-8601), about
$1500; Auburn Grizzly (to 2200; prices approximate);
DCP Raptor (discontinued)and of course, 'Zillas.
AC controllers: Siemens (discontinued, but available
from Metric Mind), and there's another, but the name
escapes me.
You're in luck, being in Santa Cruz. Mike Brown
(ElectroAuto.com) lives/works there; and he should be
able to take care of you.
I'm going to bet that a local JC or electrical
engineer can troubleshoot your controller for much
cheaper than you're going to get a controller for, but
it will take a week or two to remove the unit, find
the right person, and wait for the repairs.
Do you have a schematic for the unit?
I forget the saga about GEMcars.
peace,
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
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My PM Etek powered scooter towing a 490 lb battery trailer ran 120 wh/mile for
55 miles. My 1600 lb Cushman with ADC 6.7" motor uses about 350 wh/mile at
35~40MPH, same speed as I ran the scooter at. In my limited experiance, PM DC
motors are more efficient than ADC motors and AC are more efficent than both.
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/preview.php?vid=802
Bob
jmygann <jmygann@...> wrote:
In my mind this is a good test of efficiency ....
Are there any Whr/mile figures for EV trips? Round trips with average
speed?
Some e-bike folks are claiming 18-20 Whr/mile No pedaling - Round trip
On 7/7/06, Roderick Wilde <roderick@...> wrote:
> Hi Jim, Why were they talking to you about their AC drives. Their site says
> 246 bhp at 12,500 rpm.
Steady on Rod, it clearly doesn't have any motor at all. Check out
the Triumph site: it says
125PS (123bhp) at 12,500 rpm. So he's imaginatively doubled the HP
for this imaginary creation.
http://www.triumph.co.uk/3942.aspx
It's obviously just some kid messing about with photoshop, I wouldn't
sweat it ;)
EV Digest 5629
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Looking for a quite vacuum pump
by Bob Bath <civicwithacord@...>
2) Re: Neon John's status
by benteaches@...
3) RE: Motor Controller For GEM -- help!!
by "Roger Stockton" <rstockton@...>
4) RE: Looking for a quite vacuum pump
by "Jody Dewey" <jodydewey@...>
5) RE: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
by "Roger Stockton" <rstockton@...>
6) Re: Wikipedia EV conversion
by "Mike Ellis" <michael.ellis@...>
7) Re: Taurus EV
by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
8) Re: Whr/mile
by Mike Phillips <mikep_95133@...>
9) Re: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle - Danger Will Robinson!!
by Steve Condie <pdkluge@...>
10) Re: 3 Phase motor substitute?
by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
11) Re: Taurus EV - BMS thoughts
by "Stefan T. Peters" <stefan@...>
12) Re: Taurus EV
by "David Roden" <evpost@...>
13) Re: DC Motor torque calculations
by "David Roden" <evpost@...>
14) RE: DC Motor torque calculations
by "David Roden" <evpost@...>
15) RE: DC Motor torque calculations
by "Roger Stockton" <rstockton@...>
16) RE: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle (rant slightly OT)
by Brendan Miller <malevoleev@...>
17) RE: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
by David Dymaxion <david_dymaxion@...>
18) RE: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle (rant slightly OT)
by "Roger Stockton" <rstockton@...>
19) Re: Taurus EV
by "Mike Phillips" <mikep_95133@...>
20) RE: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
by "Roger Stockton" <rstockton@...>
21) DC-DC wishlist
by Martin Klingensmith <martin-distlists@...>
22) Selling EV's was Re: DC Motor torque calculations
by "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
23) Re: Taurus EV , Tranny Tromas
by "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
24) Re: DC-DC wishlist
by Doug Weathers <dougw@...>
25) Re: Taurus EV
by Jack Murray <jack@...>
26) Re: Hacked Old Mail Truck
by "David Roden" <evpost@...>
27) RE: Taurus EV
by "David Roden" <evpost@...>
Gast is much quieter than Thomas, IMHO. Mounting
location is also important. Mine is on the motor
mount, with two sets of rubber between the pump and
the mount!
Use a square D switch (KTA-ev.com) because you can set
it to go on at 10 mm Hg, and off at 22 mmHg, which
means (in my case) 4 actuations of the brake before
the pump purrs again.
Hope that helps,
--- "Lewis, Brian K" <lewis@...> wrote:
> The GM vacuum pump that I got from a junk yard is
> starting to go out.
> When I start the car (turn the car on) it does not
> always power up right
> away. Today it took about 10 mins before I had a
> vacuum.
>
> I have never been happy with the pump. It was good
> for the price I paid
> but it is embarrassing having to explain to everyone
> what the horrendous
> noise is on an otherwise quite ride.
>
>
>
> I am looking for other options. Surly with all the
> hybrids on the road
> someone out there has already tried one in an EV?
>
>
>
>
>
> Brian
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Pool, Ryan <Ryan.Pool@...>
To: Evdl (E-mail) <ev@...>
Sent: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 12:45:00 -0500
Subject: Neon John's status
He thinks he'll be back on in about a month or so.
Ryan
That's good news, I always enjoyed his posts.
Ben
________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email
and IM. All on demand. Always Free.
Bob Bath wrote:
> > I have an '02 GEM, eL.
> > It's brand new for me.
> > And here's what the service manual says to do about
> > it:
> > Motor Controller is in thermal cut back. Allow to
> > cool & the status code should disappear. If
> > problem persists after the Motor Controller has
> > cooled, replace the Motor Controller.
> DC controllers are made by Curtis (1231-8601), about
> $1500; Auburn Grizzly (to 2200; prices approximate);
> DCP Raptor (discontinued)and of course, 'Zillas.
>
> AC controllers: Siemens (discontinued, but available
> from Metric Mind), and there's another, but the name
> escapes me.
Be careful there; the GEM uses a sep-ex motor and runs a GE controller.
Of the options listed by Bob, only Curtis makes a possible sep-ex
replacement for the GE controller, however, sep-ex controllers must be
"tuned" to the parameters of the specific motor they are mated to and
you would need to know the parameters and have a Curtis programmer in
order to do so.
Your first action should be to contact GEM service to see what it would
cost to have the controller replaced or repaired. I don't think the
controller is particularly expensive (should be significantly lower cost
than the series controllers Bob mentions), though I've no idea what sort
of prices GEM service charges for parts and labour.
I'm not sure about your 2002 model, but certainly on later models the GE
controller talks to the dash display/ECU and I would expect you would
run into all sorts of problems if you replaced the motor controller with
something that did not talk to the ECU as expected.
One thing you might be able to try is checking if the thermal switch on
the motor is open or closed. This is a bimetallic switch that alerts
the controller to a motor overtemp condition so that the controller will
reduce the current limit to try to keep from frying the motor. If it
has failed, this might cause your problem. In my experience, the motor
will overheat long before the GE controller, so, fingers crossed,
perhaps you've simply got a defective motor temp sensor or wires between
it and the controller.
Cheers,
Roger.
EVparts.com sells a brand new one for $209.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
Behalf Of Lewis, Brian K
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 10:21 AM
To: ev@...
Subject: Looking for a quite vacuum pump
The GM vacuum pump that I got from a junk yard is starting to go out.
When I start the car (turn the car on) it does not always power up right
away. Today it took about 10 mins before I had a vacuum.
I have never been happy with the pump. It was good for the price I paid
but it is embarrassing having to explain to everyone what the horrendous
noise is on an otherwise quite ride.
I am looking for other options. Surly with all the hybrids on the road
someone out there has already tried one in an EV?
Brian
David Dymaxion wrote:
> My BS needle is quivering on this one, too.
>
> It takes over 4 times as much power to go 214 mph vs. 150 mph.
As I have said, I would not bet against their performance claims being
somewhat "optomistic". What I have said, and firmly believe is that
with a pricetag of $90K, one can certainly afford the sort of parts to
build a bike that will at least achieve the same sorts of 150mph-ish
speeds that existing (much less costly) EV bikes have demonstrated.
And, bear in mind that the 214mph claim only seems to appear in Rod's
email on this subject; there is no such claim anywhere on the goWheel
site. Nowhere that I can see do they state a top speed claim; the only
performance claims I see have to do with acceleration and range. The
only speed that is stated is a 97mph cruising speed.
Cheers,
Roger.
Ok! Done.
-Mike
On 7/6/06, Paul Wujek <pdw@...> wrote:
> Good heavens Mike, don't be horrified, fix the page!
>
> That's the way that Wikipedia was conceived, and what Rod was asking
> people to do.
>
> You don't even have to fix the whole thing, just make some minor
> improvements, hopefully others will do the same.
>
> Mike Ellis wrote:
> > I visited the page and was somewhat horrified to discover that the
> > first type of conversion listed was "Novelty." Novelty also had the
> > biggest and the most pictures.
> >
> > Next was bikes with a picture.
> >
> > No pics at all for actual cars and trucks.
> >
> > We can sign up and edit the page. I'd do it but I think maybe someone
> > with more EV cred would be a good idea.
> >
> > -Mike
> >
> > On 7/4/06, Rod Hower <rodhower@...> wrote:
> >> Had some extra time today so I spent some time at
> >> wikipedia.
> >>
> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_vehicle_conversion
> >>
> >> It seems that almost all of the categories have very
> >> little information and links. I just thought the list
> >> could contribute our collective knowlege to make this
> >> a better resourse for those looking into EV's.
> >> Rod
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Paul Wujek (pdw@...) h:(905)279-5885 c:(416)892-5885
>
>
"Stefan T. Peters" wrote:
> I think perchance they are referring to Battery Management Systems,
> not Battery Monitoring Systems. Your regs *are* the bees knees, and
> Lee's designs are almost sublime in their simplicity.
>
> But they are not fully automatic systems. They help *us* manage the
> batts, and properly set our chargers, and even baby-sit the batteries
> at times. Some even let us know when a batt is going bad, if we
> dutifully check the data. But how many current systems simply get
> set once by a batt installer, and manage the batts & charger for us?
> No data needed for us mere humans, besides a colorful yes/no/maybe
> light ;-)
Yes; you summed it up well.
The fundamental reason we don't have good battery management systems
(BMS) is cost. Batteries cost money. BMS cost more money. It's cheaper
to "use up" batteries faster than to use an expensive BMS to extend
their life.
The few BMS that have been used in production are there for safety or
warranty reasons -- not to save money! Lithiums will start fires or
explode without a BMS! Hybrids with nimh batteries would have ruinous
warranty costs without their BMS!
Notice that even industrial EV users, who are fanatics about minimizing
costs, don't use BMS to extend the life of their expensive batteries.
They prefer to require extremely rugged batteries that can't be easily
killed by abusive behavior -- and then abuse them.
> how silly we are... to need all this hand-holding by our... faithful
> little electronic helpers... But the general population does insist on
> it, for whatever reasons...
The public doesn't "insist" on it, but they've come to expect it. People
don't understand the technology, and so make decisions based on cost,
appearance, advertising, and herd instincts (do what everyone else does,
even if it's wrong).
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
My 5000lb truck (AC vehicle) gets as good as 260 wh/mi. Normally runs
300-350 wh/mi.
A friends 3400lb Saturn (AC vehicle) gets as good as 157 wh/mi.
Normally runs 170-200 wh/mi.
Both are round trip.
Mike
--- jmygann <jmygann@...> wrote:
> In my mind this is a good test of efficiency ....
>
> Are there any Whr/mile figures for EV trips? Round trips with
> average
> speed?
>
> Some e-bike folks are claiming 18-20 Whr/mile No pedaling - Round
> trip
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
<snip>
It's obviously just some kid messing about with photoshop, I wouldn't
sweat it ;)
I'm not sure that it's that simple, or something to be laughed off. "Jay" has
now listed KTA Services, Hi-Torque Electric, and Killacycle.com as "Resources"
on the back of his business card. He has links to a real custom chopper frame
business, and has created a web of real-seeming businesses which cross link back
to him. (As best I can tell, only the frame compnay is a real, brick-and-mortar
business, although it's hard to tell what "Jay's" connection to that business
is. The rest just look like websites with cut and paste pictures of "products"
but no way to order them, find out what and where they are, etc.) He's fishing
for investors and orders for his 200+ MPH motocycles and "barotex" wheels, and
he **may** be a guy who has been convicted of serious big-money fraud in the
recent past. If so, this has the makings of an ugly situation, which would be
good to stay as far away from as possible.
---------------------------------
Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
Mike Phillips wrote:
> Excellent! The other issue is charging. It uses the igbt's and at
> least part of the motor to charge the pack. So I would need an
> inductor that is tuned for the circuit. Or would I?
What part of the motor? Most AC-powered battery chargers need inductors.
Some designers have used the motor for this inductor. If that's all they
are doing, then any inductor of the right value can work.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
Lee Hart wrote:
>> how silly we are... to need all this hand-holding by our... faithful
>> little electronic helpers... But the general population does insist on
>> it, for whatever reasons...
>>
>
> The public doesn't "insist" on it, but they've come to expect it. People
> don't understand the technology, and so make decisions based on cost,
> appearance, advertising, and herd instincts (do what everyone else does,
> even if it's wrong).
>
Not so sure about that... if you gave the average person this choice:
$20,000 = new electric car, nice meaty instruction/warning manual.
Learning stuff, checking stuff, and setting stuff required.
$24,000 = same new electric car, but with same tiny 20 page manual cars
have had for awhile now. No new habits to learn, just remember to plug
it in every night (no setting stuff, checking stuff, or learning stuff)
Given this comes to the difference between a $410/month payment and a
$340/month payment, most will pay the extra $50/month for the latter.
It's not a matter that they *can't* do all the stuff required to even
get an EV to last even 3 months, it's that they *don't want to*. And
when your spending that much money, most people don't like personal
compromises.
No one even *needs* to buy a brand new car anyways, no matter how
venomously they rationalize it. Otherwise lease returns would be much
more popular (same reliability, almost same warranty as new, much lower
cost). When someone buys a new car, it's because they simply *want* to.
So what they want to and don't want to do and/or accept play a real
factor in the decision of which car they buy.
I think the general public today is smarter then you give them credit
for, Lee. Just because someone can learn something, rarely means that
they want to. And just because someone knows about something, doesn't
mean they want to actually act on that knowledge. It's their hard-earned
money, so they are going to get what they want to get, and they want the
right to be as lazy as they wish.
Apathy compromises a much greater portion of our current social inertia
then ignorance. (Debatable, but something I believe in at the moment)
Hence the emphasis on "insist". The public likely doesn't need it, but I
do believe they will insist on it being there before they fork over
their precious bucks.
~ Peanut Gallery ~
On 5 Jul 2006 at 22:57, Jack Murray wrote:
> If you've got another idea, put it forward..
Based on your criteria, how about a Toyota Corolla? Recent ones have all
the creature comforts you cite, they're quite popular so plenty are around,
and they seem to run and run and run and run and ... ;-)
I found 1050kg (2300lb) curb weight for a 1997, 1150kg (2525lb) for a 2000.
A 2000 Taurus is much heavier at around 1400kg (3100lb). I'll bet Toyota's
automatic transmissions would be a fair bit more durable than Ford's, too,
if you decided to go with a DC drive to the factory slushbox.
The only downside I can think of would be that they last so long in ICE trim
that glider cost would be appreciably higher.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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On 5 Jul 2006 at 11:51, mdrobnak@... wrote:
> I was under the impression that it would be quite inefficient to keep the main
> motor idling in order to keep the transmission pressure and PS pressure up
high
> enough to use....
It is, but if you don't need much range, it may not be much of an issue.
You might mitigate the waste of energy by controlling a contactor from the
brake pedal so the idle shuts down when the brake is depressed. When the
driver releases the brake (presumably as the other direction's traffic light
turns amber), the idle resumes and has a few seconds to build up hydraulic
pressure. You might still get the annoying jerk off the line if the trans
pump hasn't had enough time to build sufficient pressure, but it shouldn't
be quite as rough.
This would also provide an additional measure of safety in case of a
controller full-on failure - your first instinct when the car needs a whoa
is to go for the brakes.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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On 5 Jul 2006 at 22:49, Roger Stockton wrote:
> I don't think that even
> Solectria sold 100s of EVs.
I believe I remember reading on the old Solectria website that they sold a
few more than 300 (probably total of Forces and S-10s), but don't quote me.
That would have been over - what, about a 10 year run?
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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David Roden wrote:
> I believe I remember reading on the old Solectria website
> that they sold a few more than 300 (probably total of
> Forces and S-10s), but don't quote me.
> That would have been over - what, about a 10 year run?
So you prove me wrong, but make my point just the same ;^>
Even Solectria, converting *brand new* current production gliders and
selling them as brand new cars were only able to average sales of about
30/year, despite the fact that all (or nearly all) of the sales were
sold to government or commercial fleets, not to private individuals.
The EV conversion business is a difficult way to make a living... ;^>
Cheers,
Roger.
OK, as a sport bike rider and someone who knows something about fast machines,
I've gotta' comment. This person just took a picture of a Japanese bike (even I
can't tell the difference between them anymore, and I own one!) and Photoshopped
the badging off of it, and stuck it on the site. They didn't even bother to
remove the exhaust can from under the seat. So they're going to deliver this in
two months and they haven't even removed the exhaust yet! And I got the
impression that this was a groud-up bike, not a conversion. Why exactly is
anyone giving this person the time of day!?
Anyway, these Japaneese cheese graders have terrible drag coefficients. If I
was out to make 214 mph machines, electric or otherwise, I'd custom build a bike
or at least start with a 1300cc Hyabusa, which has the least-bad aerodynamics,
and a frame that can support the battery and motor size and weight. The motors
are so small and light on these modern bikes that even with Li-Ions you're
gonna' need the bigger platform to make enough power to sustain 214 mph. You're
probably going to need about 300 hp (more than the 246 they claim) to accomplish
that task with a Hyabusa, and even more with the un-aerodynamic kitchen utensil
shown on that site.
I do have to disagree with some of the other list comments though. Even the
modern 600s are built to such extremes that the frame, brakes, etc. could handle
that speed for a single straight line run. A modern 1000cc bike can run around
a track braking and accelerating up to top speeds approaching 180mph (with a
long enough straight) and slamming on the brakes repetitively without any
problems - at least until the tires are shredded up.
The point is that 214mph isn't that hard to do if you start with the right
platform (FYI, from the factory the Hyabusa is govered to 186mph with it's 190hp
engine). All you have to do is get a Hyabusa (which Suzuki spent a lot of money
to engineer right) and put a turbo on it to add 100hp and turn the governor off
(causing the bike to now have lifespan measured in hours, not years). No reason
you couldn't make the same amount of horsepower with an electric motor and
Li-Ions. But if this person can't bother to take the time to Photoshop the
exhaust off while they're creating their scam, they shouldn't waste the time of
people who are actually out there building motors and battery management systems
for real projects!
-Brendan Miller
I saw the 214 mph on their web page, too. Seems they have now taken
it off -- now why might that be? Why take down such an awesome sales
number? Maybe they monitor this list?
I'll 2nd that 150ish is doable with $90k. The Killacycle shows you
can do 150 on much less than $90k.
--- Roger Stockton <rstockton@...> wrote:
> ... What I have said, and firmly believe is that
> with a pricetag of $90K, one can certainly afford the sort of parts
> to
> build a bike that will at least achieve the same sorts of
> 150mph-ish
> speeds that existing (much less costly) EV bikes have demonstrated.
>
> And, bear in mind that the 214mph claim only seems to appear in
> Rod's
> email on this subject; there is no such claim anywhere on the
> goWheel
> site. Nowhere that I can see do they state a top speed claim; the
> only
> performance claims I see have to do with acceleration and range.
> The only speed that is stated is a 97mph cruising speed.
__________________________________________________
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Brendan Miller wrote:
> This person just
> took a picture of a Japanese bike (even I can't tell the
> difference between them anymore, and I own one!) and
> Photoshopped the badging off of it, and stuck it on the site.
As someone else observed, it is not a Japanese sportbike, but a Triumph
Daytona 675 <http://www.triumph.co.uk/3942.aspx>. Notice that the
chassis specs are identical.
In all fairness to the goWheel people, they didn't even try particularly
hard to hide this fact, as the webpage it appears on is called
"evDaytona", as in they are selling an EV conversion of a Triumph
Daytona.
Cheers,
Roger.
I don't see that LEE. What I see at each EAA meeting I chair are guys
that don't see the value in it. I could not sell them on my tiny
version of Rich's regulators. They won't even go for the Zreg at $2
each. I don't think it's cost. It has more to do with understanding
what you gain from it. Nobody wants to look stupid. So they avoid the
fact that they don't understand how a simple bms works by just not
dealing with it.
Then there is the battery monitoring system. That's been done cheap
too. John's system is a good example of that. I couldn't sell that to
the group either. Even one simpler than John's I couldn't get a nibble
on. Not for cash but figuritively.
It's just too complicated to see for most people to even investigate
it. Even though you and I see it as dirt simple.
I think 80% of EV owners are in two camps. Just buying/building an EV
or just selling one off. So a bms isn't a thought either way.
Mike
>
> The fundamental reason we don't have good battery management systems
> (BMS) is cost. Batteries cost money. BMS cost more money. It's cheaper
> to "use up" batteries faster than to use an expensive BMS to extend
> their life.
David Dymaxion wrote:
> I saw the 214 mph on their web page, too.
You must have got to their page sooner after Rod's post than I did; I
don't recall ever having seen the 214mph claim on it (but it wasn't
until after Rod's post that I visited the site).
> Seems they have now taken it off -- now why might
> that be? Why take down such an awesome sales
> number? Maybe they monitor this list?
I'd say this speaks to their credit (no, I am not "defending" them
because I have any sort of tie to them at all ;^). It suggests to me
that they had over-estimated the top speed potential of the bike, and as
soon as the error was brought to their attention, they corrected their
ad copy. I think it is commendable that they deleted all top speed
claims rather than downgrading their 214mph estimate to something more
probable (like even 150mph), but possibly still unachievable.
Cheers,
Roger.
What tops your list for EV DC/DC features?
Modularity
Power
Efficiency
Interface
Price
Self fault protection
Load fault protection
...?
--
Martin K
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <evpost@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 4:26 PM
Subject: RE: DC Motor torque calculations
> On 5 Jul 2006 at 22:49, Roger Stockton wrote:
>
> > I don't think that even
> > Solectria sold 100s of EVs.
>
> I believe I remember reading on the old Solectria website that they sold a
> few more than 300 (probably total of Forces and S-10s), but don't quote
me.
> That would have been over - what, about a 10 year run?
>
> Hi David an' EVerybody;
Solectria gave up on Metro conversions just a tad too soon? With gas at
3.39 a gal, just bought some for my stinkin' lawnmower and for parts
cleaning, it's not easy cleaning stuff with electricity, like paint
brushes!Had Solectria kept doing conversions they may have a going biz? But
ya hafta admit 26k for a Metro wasa bit extreame. But who ELSE would be
building a turnkey EV, as of yet. Lets see how Tesla can offer, at a common
man's price? I think a converter can ask a reasonable mark up on a gas small
car BECAUSE it is electric?
My two gliders worth.
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <evpost@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 4:26 PM
Subject: Re: Taurus EV
> On 5 Jul 2006 at 22:57, Jack Murray wrote:
>
> > If you've got another idea, put it forward..
>
> Based on your criteria, how about a Toyota Corolla? Recent ones have all
> the creature comforts you cite, they're quite popular so plenty are
around,
> and they seem to run and run and run and run and ... ;-)
>
> I found 1050kg (2300lb) curb weight for a 1997, 1150kg (2525lb) for a
2000.
> A 2000 Taurus is much heavier at around 1400kg (3100lb). I'll bet
Toyota's
> automatic transmissions would be a fair bit more durable than Ford's, too,
> if you decided to go with a DC drive to the factory slushbox.
> Hi ECVerybody;
As david sez the Toyota wiould be a better bet than the Ford.For Gawd's
sake you DO NOT WANT the Fraud Auto tranny. It' is a piece of shit. Mom had
a Mercury Sable, same as a Taurus, it went through 3 trannies BEFORE I
inherited it when she died. Mom never raced it, just drove arouind town,
like if she had an electric. Boy! That killed it! Had a few strong words
with the Fraud dealer about that one. Took it to Ampco, they took it apart
and sed it was a computer issue, as to shifting smoothly. He sed don't worry
about it, get used to it. I felt better about it when the Ampco guy offered
to buy the car, if I wanted to sell it. I DID sell it, after my kids did
their Florida spring break with it with no issues, other than the sloppy
shifting. I rather they take a almost new car on a long trip, than their"
Poverty Motor Specials " they all had.
Bottom line, if you MUST do a Tauris? Hell, why? They are a crappy
station wagon, can't get stuff in the pill shape anyhow, OK .You didn't say
Wagon? Did ya?The Sedan with a stick shift? Yeah! Go for it, and report back
to us<G>!I might, although David points out that they are hevier than a
Corrola. Howbout a KIA Reo? I was looking in the engine room the other day,
and trying to think"No Engine" Seems that you COULD stuff some batteries in
this one?They are very common around here. And, of course Jettas, gees! they
are a dime a doxen 'round here! Was offered a 95? I think for the taking. It
was an Autiomatic. My kid took it, when I passed, it was SUPPOSED to have a
blown head gasket, but the kid just LOOKED at the engine closly and found
the craped hose imput casting on the block, that was sweating antifreeze.
Quick fix, he haz a nice car, now!Well, it haz a few dings and dunkles. What
is it with some people? Ding and dunk up a almost new car?Hsssh!
> The only downside I can think of would be that they last so long in ICE
trim
> that glider cost would be appreciably higher.
> Yeah, The Jetta I got the engine runs fine, reluctent to tear it out. But
I have a home lined up for it, already.The usual Stupid VW Stuff, won't
crank with key, screwdriver across the solenoid, AC clutch won't pull in
when ya turn it on. My LAST jetta had the same damn issues.
YMMV
Bob
On Jul 7, 2006, at 3:32 PM, Martin Klingensmith wrote:
> What tops your list for EV DC/DC features?
Ability to work on a 192v (or higher) pack.
Followed by: robust enough to last inside a car, price, fault
protection.
> Modularity
> Power
> Efficiency
> Interface
> Price
> Self fault protection
> Load fault protection
> ...?
>
> --
> Martin K
>
>
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org/
As I posted in a previous message, the plan is to get new car dealer(s)
to sign on to an all-electric car, they stock and sell it (finance it,
lease it) they should make more profit selling it than a new car. It
would have some brand name, and basically have the dealer warranty
support. Obviously that is not an easy sell to a dealer, but I think
they may be some large car dealer owners that might go for it for the
social angle, the notoriety, if not the profit potential if it takes
off. The car is marketed as "recycled" or something along those lines.
The car would have new parts for wear items, new brakes, steering,
etc. Basically shiney as new, but "recycled". So the prep on the basic
car would not be trivial.
It would cost the same as a new car, a new Taurus is $20K.
If you give dealer $4k profit, can it be done for $16K?
I have come to the definite conclusion that current lead-acid battery
technology will not work. Not enough range. Too much maintainance and
weight. NiMH or really Lithium is needed. So the cost of Lithium must
come down to make it happen. Perhaps with volume it can.
So it seems for TODAY, the car to bring electric to the mainstream isn't
possible. Perhaps there is a tiny market for a high-dollar electric car
as status symbol, like a H2 was, now it would be the anti-H2, a $50K
vehicle, maybe that is what Tesla is doing. In this case, you can
convert a new car, the cost isn't so important. Maybe that is
profitable niche business, but does it really help the environment?
I think maybe a viable alternative today would be to take a new gas car
and ADD an aux electric drive to convert it to hybrid. Off the top of
my head I'd say the beetle. Add rear-wheel electric drive. Make it go
really fast AWD car, that gets exceptional mileage. Add $10K to the
$17K base price, that isn't too outrageous. But again it's probably a
niche short-term business.
Jack
Steve Powers wrote:
> I would choose a Toyota Corolla, 1993 -> ? They are lighter, I think. They
also have a lot of parts availability. They are still everywhere on the road.
I can't go anywhere without seeing them. They are well built. Mine has 130k
miles, still running perfect, never had any issues at all. Also, it is a good
conversion candidate. That is what someone was converting in the 94-95 time
frame (but those were Geo Prisms - which just happens to be the exact same car).
There is history out there, and a proven design.
>
> As for what people want in an EV. This is something I have given a lot of
thought to, so here is my opinion. I am sure other people have ideas as well.
This is based on the average consumer, not an EV enthusiest or hobby person who
may be building / buying for technical challenge.
> 1. Performance must be similar to a low end ICE car, acceleration / speed -
0 - 45 in about 10 sec, 0 - 60 in 15 sec, top speed 65 - 70 minimum.
> 2. They want comfort. In other words, they don't want to freeze in the
winter or burn up in the summer.
> 3. People like accys, but power brakes are most critical. People will live
with manual steering.
> 4. The car needs to look decent, presentable. People don't want to pay
$15,000 (or even $12,000) for a 15 year old junk yard car with 200,000 + miles
on it, even if it is electric. My story ... don't convert a $150 chasis, you
will regret it.
> 5. The car needs to be sustainable. Parts have to be out there, available,
and not cost a fortune. If you don't see other people driving that make / model
don't do it. Parts won't be available in the future.
> 6. The car needs to be simple to repair so someone has a way to get it fixed
when there are issues.
> 7. People will pay on the order of $6500 - $12,000 for a conversion,
depending on what it is. People have a hard time spending a lot of money on
something unproven, i.e. a home made conversion. Something like a production
RAV4, S10, ... is different.
> 8. People will not settle for anything less than a usable daily range of
about 35 miles. They may only drive it 6 miles a day, but if you try to sell
someone a car with a 20 mile range, the general population won't buy it.
> 9. People don't want to shift a lot. Either stick with direct drive, an
automatic, or only 2 gears. If it has 2 gears, keep the clutch.
> 10. Make sure the batteries are reasonable in cost. If the battery pack
costs $20,000, people won't buy the car.
> 11. Don't undersize the motor - see item #1 above.
>
> I still think the best bet is the dual mode hybrid conversion that is pure
electric for the first 25 miles and then has "unlimited" range in ICE mode. It
still has to have the same performance in both modes .... If I had it, I
probably would never even run it in ICE mode, but I sure would feel better about
driving it knowing that I would never get dtranded. For most people 25 miles
would be acceptable if they knew they would never get stranded.
>
> That is just my 2 kW worth. Other people may have different opinions, so I
welcome feedback.
>
> Steve
>
>
> Jack Murray <jack@...> wrote:
> Taurus is basically unchanged from '86 to present, 20 years of cars to
> pick from. Prone to engine and trans failures. A big trunk. Boring
> normal car with lots of standard features. Styling is always
> subjective, given Taurus is one of the most popular cars in the USA, a
> lot of normal people must like them.
> Hey, they run them in Nascar, that frontal area can't be that big an
> issue.. ;)
>
> An alternative is the New VW Beetle, but not too many available.
>
> If you've got another idea, put it forward..
>
> Best Regards,
> Jack
>
>
> Death to All Spammers wrote:
>
>>>The plan is to do 100's of Taurus conversions, seeking out used parts
>>
>>>from other cars would not be viable. Ultimately the question is what
>>
>>>electric car will average people buy, what features do they want.
>>>Look at manual vs automatic trans cars. The vote on that is pretty
>>>clear, even corvettes have more automatic trans sold.
>>>Air Conditioning? Votes are in. Power windows? Power door locks?
>>>Power seats? Tilt steering?
>>>
>>>Jack
>>
>>
>>Is this plan to do 100's of Taurus conversions based on an actual
>>business plan? You'd need financial resources to take on that
>>many...or even 10 of these!
>>
>>Do you have some emotional or logical reason to choose the Taurus?
>>While there are plenty of conversions in this size range, current
>>professional converters tend to choose smaller cars (or small pickup
>>trucks for their higher GVWR). I'd never want something this large in
>>frontal area, and many others find its styling boring -- the latest
>>Jaguar sedan looks like a Taurus with a change in grill and hood, so
>>Ford blandness seems to be contageous.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs.Try it free.
>
>
On 6 Jul 2006 at 8:18, Roderick Wilde wrote:
> I have often fantasized about a hot rod City Car being the ultimate
> sleeper on the street.
Just as long as you were driving on a straight, clear, smooth road.
Citicars and Comuta-cars are fine until you have to turn them, stop them, or
negotiate any bumps in the road. ;-)
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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Though I mentioned the Corolla as a conversion candidate earlier, I'd have
to agree with Roger that for most people an converted used ICE is going to
be relatively low in appeal.
What's been recently successful in EVs? Scooters and E-bikes, because
they're cheap (many are almost priced like toys) and limited range doesn't
matter (few people want to ride more than a few miles). Sparrows, because
they're different and cool. What else? EV-1s, one could argue, which also
fit into the "different and cool" category. Possibly RAV4-EVs and Ranger
EVs.
Most people don't base their vehicle purchasing decisions entirely (or even
much) on rationale. I could be wrong, but my sense is that a plain vanilla
car that looks like an ordinary $5k used car, but costs $15k or more, is
going to have trouble justifying its price.
Most folks will require at least basic comfort - quiet, good sealing against
weather. Thus I suspect that rules out many kit cars, which is too bad.
I'd like to say what's ruled IN, but I just don't know what the answer is
for sure.
Can anybody think of a conversion company that has lasted more than 5 years
or so, without having another business (selling EV parts, contract
engineering, working on ICEs) as its primary focus? Even Solectria evolved
their business to be mainly a systems and component suppy and integration
engineering operation. I can't think of any, but there might be one or two.
Regardless, it's a tough climb.
Seems to me that the person who is serious about starting a conversion EV
business would do well to commission some market research to determine what
the market will support in design, styling, and features; and what price it
will bear. I think this is what's been missing in the business plan of all
or nearly all conversion companies. Maybe the reason is that if one carried
out such research, he might abandon the idea altogether. ;-)
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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EV Digest 5630
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: An Automotive Zoo, Horns for EV's
by "Mark Ward" <thescreendoctor@...>
2) RE: sick PMC-25
by "Peter Shabino" <wireb@...>
3) RE: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle (rant slightly OT)
by Brendan Miller <malevoleev@...>
4) Re: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle (rant slightly OT)
by Nick Austin <nick@...>
5) RE: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle (rant slightly OT)
by "Roger Stockton" <rstockton@...>
6) Re: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle - Danger Will Robinson!! Update.
by Steve Condie <pdkluge@...>
7) Re: Taurus EV
by Nick Austin <nick@...>
8) RE: battery box clearance
by "Steven Potter" <stevenpotter@...>
9) Re: White Zombie hammering
by Jeff Shanab <jshanab@...>
10) Re: Looking for a quite vacuum pump
by "Paul G." <paul-g@...>
11) 3 Phase motor substitute?
by Jeff Shanab <jshanab@...>
12) Re: DC-DC wishlist
by "Michaela Merz" <misch@...>
13) RE: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
by Jim Husted <hi_torque_electric@...>
14) RE: battery box clearance
by Dave Cover <davecover@...>
15) Re: DC-DC wishlist
by Dave Cover <davecover@...>
16) Re: EV digest 5629
by Chip Gribben <futurev@...>
17) Re: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
by "Roderick Wilde" <roderick@...>
18) Re: battery box clearance
by Danny Miller <dannym@...>
19) Re: Hacked Old Mail Truck
by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
20) Re: EV digest 5629
by Jack Murray <jack@...>
21) RE: battery box clearance
by "Roger Stockton" <rstockton@...>
22) Re: Taurus EV
by "Michael Perry" <mperry@...>
This is the one that will be the "voice" of my EV. They call it the
"hammer" and it is a quad train horn. It is pretty light weight even though
it is all metal construction and I already have the compressor and air tank
for the air lift system. These things are LOUD! , not the toy horns you see
that run off 12 volts! I hooked this thing up and it about took the rest
of the hair off my head!
:-)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140005621750&ih=004&category=\
60203&ssPageName=STORE:PROMOBOX:NEWLIST
Why not?
Mark Ward
95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
www.saabrina.blogspot.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 8:40 AM
Subject: Fw: An Automotive Zoo, Horns for EV's
> JC Whitney - Everything AutomotiveHi EVerybody;
>
> Check out "train Horns" Just the thing for yur EV!
>
> Giving a Hoot!
>
> Bob
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: JC Whitney Catalog
> To: BOBRICE@...
> Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 8:11 AM
> Subject: An Automotive Zoo
>
>
> If you have images disabled or have trouble viewing this
> message, please click here.
> To ensure that you keep receiving JC Whitney emails, please add
> jcwhitney@... to your Address Book.
> Thank you!
>
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>
Hmm I wonder if there is some sort of thermal / current feedback on the
controller to keep if from cooking. Could be something drifted / bad solder
that is causing the controler to think the current / temp is higher than
expected. Got some photos of the guts of the controler?
Later,
Wire
>From: Roger <roger@...>
>Reply-To: ev@...
>To: ev@...
>Subject: sick PMC-25
>Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 21:05:20 -0700
>
>I have a Jet Industries Ford Courier
>with a PMC-25 going into a GE motor.
>I checked the motor brushes as suggested before. They look fine
>( about 1" long, with nice smooth curved surfaces)
>
>It worked fine for several years, then about a month ago I couldn't
>get more than 180ish amps out of it.
>then 2 weeks ago I couldn't get more than 80ish amps.
>
>I searched the web, found an old article regarding bad power resistors.
>
>I carefully opened the PMC-25, saw two very over-heated looking
>5watt power resistors and replaced them.
>
>Sadly, there is no change. in the cool of the morning I can get
>80 amps. then at lunchtime (when it is 80 outside), 20-30 amps
>as I try to go up a short hill.
>
>Any suggestions? Anyone have a schematic for this WAY old controller
>(No, Curtis does NOT have the drawings anymore. Nor will Flight
>Systems venture to repair it. Very scary to send in a photo and hear
>them speaking at the other end of the phone; "You ever see one of these?
>Nope, me either.")
>
>thanks
>jolly roger
>
I stand corrected; it's based on an English cheese grater (referring to the
aerodynamics). I should have said "current-era Japanese styled
sport-motorcycle," and not have said "Japanese bike" - my apologies. However,
since England and Japan are both in this same universe, the same laws of physics
apply. Bad aero is bad aero. This choice makes the top speed claim even more
unreasonable based on their horsepower claim.
I see they've taken the wild 214mph claim off their page (yes, I saw it there
too). Though they still have the wild 2.4 sec 0-60 time, which will not happen
on this short wheelbase bike (unless they are talking about 0-60 kph or 60 ft
times, which would be misleading at best). And how does Ferrari feel about the
"Ferrari Red" paint color? That's a trademarked name, and they have sued others
for similar infringements. That should soon disappear, too.
The point is that it's a scam, stop defending them. If I were Bill, Jim or the
guys at KTA, I'd nip this in the bud and have them remove that association from
the card of this unethical "company." This is bad for anyone who is trying to
do legitimate business, especially those they are associating themselves with.
If they said they wanted advice because they were going to build a prototype
that would be defensible. Putting a "place an order now" button on a web page
that implies that the first unit could be delivered on August 18, when they
could never deliver a tested machine in that time frame, is called fraud! Not
to mention that, according to my understanding (please correct me if I'm wrong),
asking for a $1000 deposit on a vehicle that isn't built yet is illegal (due to
problems with scammers like this one). But perhaps that only applies to cars.
-Brendan Miller
On Fri, Jul 07, 2006 at 03:59:42PM -0700, Brendan Miller wrote:
> Not to mention that, according to my understanding (please
> correct me if I'm wrong), asking for a $1000 deposit on a vehicle that isn't
> built yet is illegal (due to problems with scammers like this one). But
> perhaps that only applies to cars.
I bought my 2001 Prius a year before it was built on a refundable $500 deposit.
Brendan Miller wrote:
> However, since England and Japan are both in this same
> universe, the same laws of physics apply. Bad aero is
> bad aero. This choice makes the top speed claim even
> more unreasonable based on their horsepower claim.
You have reason to believe that for some reason English aero is
inherently poorer than Japanese bikes of similar appearance? ;^>
I can't find any performance specs online for the Daytona675, but the
2003 600 with just 110bhp had an estimated top speed of 165mph which
suggests the aero isn't all that bad. I can appreciate that the goWheel
folks might have optimistically expected near 200mph given that they
predict having over 2x the HP available on their electric version.
> The point is that it's a scam, stop defending them.
Nonsense; it hasn't been proven a scam. The performance claims may be a
bit exaggerated/optimistic, but I think the fact that the top speed
claim/estimate was immediately removed as soon as people in the know
questioned it suggests that the goWheel people are trying to keep their
ad copy realistic and not mislead people.
I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt, especially when they
seem to be making the right motions.
With its $90k pricetag, there's little danger of me (or anyone else on
this list, I suspect ;^) being personally affected by their success or
failure in meeting their performance objectives ;^>
I wish them the best of luck; I certainly believe that at this price
level rather high performance levels are possible, though they would
probably be lucky to sell more than a handful of bikes even with this
sort of performance. After all, how many t-zero's has ACP sold?
Cheers,
Roger.
OK - a little more noodling around, and I find: Orange County Superior Court
papers identify "E J Lashlee", also identified as "Jay Lashlee", as a man who
went to prison in 2003 on federal tax fraud charges, and identify "Jay
Lashlee's" wife as "Rosalie Ratilla". TIMOTCA, one of the numerous
organizations which share a phone number and postal address with "GoWheel.com"
has "Jay" - also identified as J. Lashlee, Trustee, listed as the "International
Advisor", and "Rose Ratilla" listed as "International tour manager" GoWheel.com
has a contact card for "Rose Lashlee" and "Jay Lashlee". So I'm thinking that
the "Jay" who has been talking to people may well be the same "Jay Lashlee" who
went to prison in 2003. If so, here's a description of what he was involved in
a few years ago, from the federal indictment of other people involved in the
multi-million dollar Ponzi scheme called The Genesis Fund:
"From in or about May 1998 to in or about June 2002, defendants JOHN S. LIPTON,
MARLYN D. HINDERS, DAVID L. JOHNSON, RICHARD B. LEONARD, WILLIAM H. NURICK,
VICTOR H. PRESTON, WILLIAM TAYLOR-FRASER, DENISE TAYLOR-FRASER, and TERESA R.
VOGT (referred to collectively herein as "the defendants"), together with
co-conspirators Edward J. Lashlee and Michael Putnam and others known and
unknown to the Grand Jury, persuaded and caused others to persuade hundreds of
investors to invest in the Genesis Fund by falsely telling them or causing them
to be told that their money would be pooled and invested in highly-profitable
forex trading. The defendants and their co-conspirators concealed from investors
and others that the Genesis Fund managers stopped using virtually all investor
funds for forex trading in or about May 1998 as a result of court injunctions
against the Genesis Fund in Ireland and Hong Kong. Instead, beginning in or
about May 1998, the defendants and their
co-conspirators used investors’ money to enrich themselves, as well as to
make payments to investors to induce them and other investors into believing
that the Genesis Fund was earning large profits. A Ponzi scheme is a fraud
scheme whereby investors are lured to a particular investment by the promise of
high returns, but rather than investing the funds in the touted investment, the
perpetrators of the scheme use the new investors’ funds to pay money to other
investors as false profits in order to maintain the appearance that the
investment is earning the promised high rate of return. From at least in or
about May 1998, the Genesis Fund was a Ponzi scheme. Collectively, the Genesis
Fund investors entrusted over $80,000,000 with the defendants and their
co-conspirators from in or about May 1998 to in or about June 2002."
Steve Condie <pdkluge@...> wrote:
It's obviously just some kid messing about with photoshop, I wouldn't
sweat it ;)
I'm not sure that it's that simple, or something to be laughed off. "Jay" has
now listed KTA Services, Hi-Torque Electric, and Killacycle.com as "Resources"
on the back of his business card. He has links to a real custom chopper frame
business, and has created a web of real-seeming businesses which cross link back
to him. (As best I can tell, only the frame compnay is a real, brick-and-mortar
business, although it's hard to tell what "Jay's" connection to that business
is. The rest just look like websites with cut and paste pictures of "products"
but no way to order them, find out what and where they are, etc.) He's fishing
for investors and orders for his 200+ MPH motocycles and "barotex" wheels, and
he **may** be a guy who has been convicted of serious big-money fraud in the
recent past. If so, this has the makings of an ugly situation, which would be
good to stay as far away from as possible.
---------------------------------
Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
---------------------------------
Sneak preview the all-new Yahoo.com. It's not radically different. Just
radically better.
On Fri, Jul 07, 2006 at 06:40:20PM -0400, David Roden wrote:
> Most people don't base their vehicle purchasing decisions entirely (or even
> much) on rationale.
Isn't that the truth.
> I could be wrong, but my sense is that a plain vanilla car that looks like
> an ordinary $5k used car, but costs $15k or more, is going to have trouble
> justifying its price.
You are likely correct, but I do have an interesting data point. The AC
Propulsion conversions which look like ~4K used cars all sold in the 20Ks at
auction.
I'm sure that the incredible rarity of these cars pushed the value up. I
wonder how much you could sell the 100th copy of these for?
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]
On
> Behalf Of Dave Cover
> I have provision for
> airflow between the cells down to another airspace in the bottom of
the
> battery box. I'm going to
> drill vent holes in the bottom for the outlet. This will allow the
> byproducts of cell venting to
> exit safely out the bottom.
Since hydrogen is lighter than air, wouldn't it be better to contain it
and vent it from the top of the box rather than trying to force it to
flow down? Seems to me like a mostly vertical vent pathway would work,
even without powered exhaust. ??
Steven Potter, Toronto
'98 Ranger
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.10/383 - Release Date: 7/7/2006
Ouch, 1.5V drop for the SCRs, I thought it was lower on the hockey puks.
1000W in the diode seems high, but then again, that is for only a few
seconds.
The lost of 1.5 volts near the end of the run may be an issue but if it
allows the torque to got from X to Y without a pause, the driveline
stays loaded and the beast is easier to tame.
It is so much fun playing with other peoples cars.
On Jul 7, 2006, at 7:20 AM, Lewis, Brian K wrote:
> I have never been happy with the pump. It was good for the price I
> paid
> but it is embarrassing having to explain to everyone what the
> horrendous
> noise is on an otherwise quite ride.
That pump is largely an automotive orphan now days so I have to agree
about getting another option (perhaps Volvo could source it?)
I would recommend making the bracket for your new pump attach to the
battery box. Lots of water and Lead - both good sound deadeners! The GM
pump in the Pickup I built was attached to the front battery rack and
was not very loud (mostly just some exhaust noise - needs a muffler.)
Paul G.
option 1
Go to the local electric motor shop and ask for the smallest 3 phase
motor. I believe you will find it is IEC 1/5- 1/2 HP These are the lub
pumps on industrial machines. Stick a blower on it and a restrictor
plate to give some loading capability.
option 2 ( not sure what you mean by low amps, < 1A or < 1 RR(Rich
Rudmen = 50A) < 1 JW (John Wayland = 2000A)
If the amps are not the issue, used 3 phase pump motors in the 1 to 5 HP
range are all over. I trip over them at work, scattered around the back.
option 3
Just get a 3 phase power transformer as used in machinery to create the
24 VDC or 110 volt control voltage. It has a 3 phase primary and a
single phase output and a transformer is a model for a motor.
The ability not only to provide enough DC for fans, lights, heater (in
other words - lots of juice ;) but also the usability as a battery charger
to keep the auxillary battery fresh and charged.
mm.
>
> On Jul 7, 2006, at 3:32 PM, Martin Klingensmith wrote:
>
>> What tops your list for EV DC/DC features?
>
> Ability to work on a 192v (or higher) pack.
>
> Followed by: robust enough to last inside a car, price, fault
> protection.
>
>> Modularity
>> Power
>> Efficiency
>> Interface
>> Price
>> Self fault protection
>> Load fault protection
>> ...?
>>
>> --
>> Martin K
>>
>>
> --
> Doug Weathers
> Las Cruces, NM, USA
> http://learn-something.blogsite.org/
>
Hey All
All I have to say is little did I know that when I asked a little favor to get
some insight on a project I was contacted about that it would involve FBI
profiling, LMAO! Well that, and the fact that I'm really glad you guys "LIKE"
me, lol. I opened my mail tonight to an all out feeding frenzy and like so many
other topics there are many opinions and "camps" where even the best seem to
fight about what's actually obtainable. Kind of made me wonder how many of you
guys Google'd up my name when I came aboard. I'm also chuckling that I'm super
happy having not "Photoshopped" pics of a Siamese'd 8" motor and listed it for
sale last year, LMAO!!!!
Just so people know the info at the web site was removed and or adjusted after
Father Time called him yesterday. I do know that he'd been working with others
on the list and that he was reffered to me and that he has been quick to fix
what's been brought to his attention. I believe that anything brought to light
will either wither and die or bloom, so I'm hoping I could ask everyone to maybe
let this settle a bit.
Another fun fact is, I told Jay that I'd be willing to "sharpen my pencil"
(before any postings) on the first motor, but was told it wasn't nessessary and
that he expected me to make a profit, just something to chew on. Anyway I've
been asked (along with others) to allow some breathing time, which I will honor.
For those who were possibly looking out for me, thanks, and to think you guys
call me passionate, OMG!
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
---------------------------------
How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates.
I thought about that, but for other reasons I went with a downward flow. Here's
my logic, such as
it is.
- Hydrogens desire to rise up is probably easily offset by the modest amount of
airflow the fans
will provide. I was primarily providing the air for cooling, so the purging is a
side benefit.
- If the cells vent and moisture builds up, I'd rather try and move that down
than up. If I'm
moving air upwards, the moisture (if any builds up) still wants to run down,
fighting with the
airflow. If you provide drainage, it will have to be on the bottom anyway.
- It's easier to get the vented gasses (and any liquid) out of the car at the
bottom. If I go up,
I have to route everything through the passenger compartment.
- If I want to hose the cells down, I'll already have good drainage out the
bottom.
I was hoping to build my battery boxes out of 1/4 inch HDPE, but my first
attempts at plastic
welding have been pretty lame. (If anyone can refer me to a good resource, I'd
appreciate it. I
don't have time to find a course at a local tech college.) I may go with a more
substantial metal
frame and just line the sides with HDPE sheets. I'll keep the bottom fairly open
so everything can
exit the bottom. I'm also planning on Rhino coating the frame to protect it from
everything.
I'm strapping my cells together into 8 cell blocks. Each block has strapping
tape around the
middle, top and bottom. THe first wrap is traditional strapping tape, the kind
with the the
visible fibers running through it. Around this I have another layer of clear
strapping tape,
mainly to protect the first layer.
I'll assemble the blocks together into a 2 block by 4 block pack, for a total of
64 cells. There
will be two of these in the back of my car for a grand total of 128 cells. The
eight blocks will
fit snugly into their respective boxes. The strapping will do most of the work
of containing the
swelling, but the snug box will also help.
After that, I'll get the electronics working and the car drivable. Then add
cells in the front and
behind the seats. Shooting for a total of 300 cells.
At least, that's my plan right now. Let's see what Murphy's law throws my way
next.
Dave Cover
--- Steven Potter <stevenpotter@...> wrote:
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]
> On
> > Behalf Of Dave Cover
>
> > I have provision for
> > airflow between the cells down to another airspace in the bottom of
> the
> > battery box. I'm going to
> > drill vent holes in the bottom for the outlet. This will allow the
> > byproducts of cell venting to
> > exit safely out the bottom.
>
> Since hydrogen is lighter than air, wouldn't it be better to contain it
> and vent it from the top of the box rather than trying to force it to
> flow down? Seems to me like a mostly vertical vent pathway would work,
> even without powered exhaust. ??
>
> Steven Potter, Toronto
> '98 Ranger
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.10/383 - Release Date: 7/7/2006
>
>
>
> > On Jul 7, 2006, at 3:32 PM, Martin Klingensmith wrote:
> >
> >> What tops your list for EV DC/DC features?
> >
1. The ability to connect to a nominal 360 volt pack. (192 to 450 volt range)
2. The ability to maintain a 12 volt car battery. Voltage will adjust up to
charge and lower to a
float level. The DC-DC does not have to do it all, just support/maintain the 12
volt battery.
3. Make them modular so I can plug on another module or two to get the wattage I
need.
4. Make it smarter than me. Over/under voltage protection. Over current
protection.
5. Make it so I can afford it, it's just an accessory. There are affordable
alternatives, but this
would be very nice.
Dave Cover
I'm pretty sure if you would go that route Ford will want you to be a
Qualified Vehicle Modifier (QVM). I looked into this back in 1994
when Ford was offering their Electric Vehicle Glider and Qualified
Vehicle Modifier Program to EV conversion companies. The program is
similar to ones for builders of Ambulances, RVs and other conversions
where Ford chassis are used. They sent me a very detailed
questionnaire asking for projected sales volume, production capacity,
knowledge of automotive design and development, CAD/CAE capabilities,
facility capabilities and business structure.
Ford is going to want to have a thorough knowledge of the conversion
companies background before embarking with a partnership to sell
conversions. There is a lot of hoops to go through.
Although alot of us are quite capable of building sound conversions
in our garages. Meeting all those QVM requirements is going to be a
challenge unless you're a well established service facility.
However, once you've demonstrated those capabilities and have a
prototype built it shouldn't be a problem. But I'm not sure if Ford
has the EV Glider Program anymore. The program was to provide rolling
chassis of particular lines of vehicles.
But I think if the EV Glider Program didn't exist they would still
want the conversion company to meet the requirements of the existing
QVM program if they were to sell conversion vehicles from their lots.
But I see no issues with starting small and doing onesies and
twosies. I actually received a phone call today from someone who
wants to have their car converted.
But there is actually money to be made in the EV business. Maybe I
shouldn't mention this. I've repaired over 200 electric scooters
since starting ScooterWerks, LLC. Mostly kids Razor scooters, Currie
based scooters, all kinds of electric bikes and now I'm servicing the
new e-Max scooters. Also doing warranty work for the Sharper Image,
Toys R, Us and extended service plans from other stores. I've had
people travel from other states to have their scooters repaired. A
women drove over an hour today from Virginia to pick up her e-Bike I
was working on. Plus I can fit more scooters in the garage then cars.
I currently have 4 I'm working on now. I've had up to 23 at one time.
The bike repair shops won't touch them so they send them my way. I'm
also getting alot of calls from people with Personal Mobility
Scooters. The calls I get are from people from out of town and their
scooter gets damaged on the plane or they forget to bring their
charger. So there are niches to be tapped.
As far as converting a Taurus. They are on the heavy side aren't
they? I don't know much about them. I think converting any gas car to
run on electric is revenge against the auto makers so I would say go
for it. Rip the gas guts out of the sucker and make it electric.
As far as EVs making a difference, I think they do. My friend who
lives down the street from me, Rob Neighbor, has a nice electric
Fiero. One day we were at the same intersection next to each other
waiting for the light. The people behind us had the benefit of not
inhaling fumes from our cars if they were gas. If you think in those
terms every little bit helps.
See ya
Chip Gribben
ScooterWerks
http://www.scooterwerks.com
On Jul 7, 2006, at 6:41 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
> As I posted in a previous message, the plan is to get new car dealer
> (s) to sign on to an all-electric car, they stock and sell it
> (finance it, lease it) they should make more profit selling it than
> a new car. It would have some brand name, and basically have the
> dealer warranty support. Obviously that is not an easy sell to a
> dealer, but I think they may be some large car dealer owners that
> might go for it for the social angle, the notoriety, if not the
> profit potential if it takes off. The car is marketed as
> "recycled" or something along those lines. The car would have new
> parts for wear items, new brakes, steering, etc. Basically shiney
> as new, but "recycled". So the prep on the basic car would not be
> trivial.
> It would cost the same as a new car, a new Taurus is $20K.
> If you give dealer $4k profit, can it be done for $16K?
>
> I have come to the definite conclusion that current lead-acid
> battery technology will not work. Not enough range. Too much
> maintainance and weight. NiMH or really Lithium is needed. So the
> cost of Lithium must come down to make it happen. Perhaps with
> volume it can.
>
> So it seems for TODAY, the car to bring electric to the mainstream
> isn't possible. Perhaps there is a tiny market for a high-dollar
> electric car as status symbol, like a H2 was, now it would be the
> anti-H2, a $50K vehicle, maybe that is what Tesla is doing. In
> this case, you can convert a new car, the cost isn't so important.
> Maybe that is profitable niche business, but does it really help
> the environment?
>
> I think maybe a viable alternative today would be to take a new gas
> car and ADD an aux electric drive to convert it to hybrid. Off the
> top of my head I'd say the beetle. Add rear-wheel electric drive.
> Make it go really fast AWD car, that gets exceptional mileage. Add
> $10K to the $17K base price, that isn't too outrageous. But again
> it's probably a niche short-term business.
>
> Jack
Hi All, I for one am willing to give Jay the benefit of the doubt. I would
also suggest he join this group. I had a lengthy conversation with him
today. He is very personable, but so are the very best con men in the
industry. Here is what I see different about Jay. He is very open to hearing
our opinions and taking our advice. I highly suggest he join this group. In
the past I have dealt with Corbin Motors and they would not listen to
anybody. They knew it all. The biggest mistake they ever made, and I told
this to Jay, was putting out speed and range specifications before they even
built one single prototype. Later in life after Myers bought out the assets
of Corbin I had contacted them. I suggested they join the EV Discussion List
and told them the wealth of knowledge here. I also informed them of all the
stupid mistakes Corbin made so that they would not do the same thing. It was
a very polite and helpful letter. It was in no way like my letters
responding to The Madman when he needs to be reeled in. They did not even
have the curtsey to respond to my email. My feeling is that Jay has bit off
a big chunk here on an extremely short time frame. I feel we should all
allow him enough rope to hang himself or come through with a viable product.
After all we only have to wait a couple months to see the proof in the
pudding or the rubber on the road.
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Husted" <hi_torque_electric@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 6:23 PM
Subject: RE: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
Hey All
All I have to say is little did I know that when I asked a little favor to
get some insight on a project I was contacted about that it would involve
FBI profiling, LMAO! Well that, and the fact that I'm really glad you guys
"LIKE" me, lol. I opened my mail tonight to an all out feeding frenzy and
like so many other topics there are many opinions and "camps" where even the
best seem to fight about what's actually obtainable. Kind of made me wonder
how many of you guys Google'd up my name when I came aboard. I'm also
chuckling that I'm super happy having not "Photoshopped" pics of a Siamese'd
8" motor and listed it for sale last year, LMAO!!!!
Just so people know the info at the web site was removed and or adjusted
after Father Time called him yesterday. I do know that he'd been working
with others on the list and that he was reffered to me and that he has been
quick to fix what's been brought to his attention. I believe that anything
brought to light will either wither and die or bloom, so I'm hoping I could
ask everyone to maybe let this settle a bit.
Another fun fact is, I told Jay that I'd be willing to "sharpen my pencil"
(before any postings) on the first motor, but was told it wasn't nessessary
and that he expected me to make a profit, just something to chew on. Anyway
I've been asked (along with others) to allow some breathing time, which I
will honor.
For those who were possibly looking out for me, thanks, and to think you
guys call me passionate, OMG!
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
---------------------------------
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Hmmm... well, heat does rise so cooling should be more effective venting
out the top.
Moisture. Most people don't realize that water vapor is lighter than
air, not heavier. Now if it's a mist- water droplets- those are
heavier. But high humidity air is lighter.
Now the idea of droplets on the surfaces... it would take an awful lot
of airflow to move those against gravity. I see where a lot of liquid
would be in trouble, but that's trouble either way. Liquid should have
its own drain path, not rely on a fan to draw it out.
Danny
Dave Cover wrote:
>I thought about that, but for other reasons I went with a downward flow. Here's
my logic, such as
>it is.
>
>- Hydrogens desire to rise up is probably easily offset by the modest amount of
airflow the fans
>will provide. I was primarily providing the air for cooling, so the purging is
a side benefit.
>
>- If the cells vent and moisture builds up, I'd rather try and move that down
than up. If I'm
>moving air upwards, the moisture (if any builds up) still wants to run down,
fighting with the
>airflow. If you provide drainage, it will have to be on the bottom anyway.
>
>- It's easier to get the vented gasses (and any liquid) out of the car at the
bottom. If I go up,
>I have to route everything through the passenger compartment.
>
>- If I want to hose the cells down, I'll already have good drainage out the
bottom.
>
>
>Dave Cover
>
>
Roderick Wilde wrote:
>> I have often fantasized about a hot rod City Car being the ultimate
>> sleeper on the street.
David Roden wrote:
> Just as long as you were driving on a straight, clear, smooth road.
> Citicars and Comuta-cars are fine until you have to turn them, stop
> them, or negotiate any bumps in the road. ;-)
There aren't many turns, bumps, or fast stops on a drag strip :-)
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
Chip, I appreciate the info. The plan was to approach specific dealers,
not Ford itself, since a dealer that would be interested would be
forward looking and might like to "outdo" the corporate guys. I don't
know a dealers legal obligations, but I would assume a converted taurus
would be legally sold as a used car, I don't think there are any
restrictions on a dealer when selling used cars, could be wrong though.
But make no mistake, even a maverick ford dealer will need assurances
the ev car performs as advertised, and is top quality worthy of risking
his reputation. EV's will make a difference when they are more than 1%
of cars..
I'm still pursuing the electric outboard business, which is low-risk and
doesn't require outside financing or anything more than a product and
customers, and as you mention about scooters, outboards are smaller and
ship UPS. :)
Jack
Chip Gribben wrote:
> I'm pretty sure if you would go that route Ford will want you to be a
> Qualified Vehicle Modifier (QVM). I looked into this back in 1994 when
> Ford was offering their Electric Vehicle Glider and Qualified Vehicle
> Modifier Program to EV conversion companies. The program is similar to
> ones for builders of Ambulances, RVs and other conversions where Ford
> chassis are used. They sent me a very detailed questionnaire asking for
> projected sales volume, production capacity, knowledge of automotive
> design and development, CAD/CAE capabilities, facility capabilities and
> business structure.
>
> Ford is going to want to have a thorough knowledge of the conversion
> companies background before embarking with a partnership to sell
> conversions. There is a lot of hoops to go through.
>
> Although alot of us are quite capable of building sound conversions in
> our garages. Meeting all those QVM requirements is going to be a
> challenge unless you're a well established service facility.
>
> However, once you've demonstrated those capabilities and have a
> prototype built it shouldn't be a problem. But I'm not sure if Ford has
> the EV Glider Program anymore. The program was to provide rolling
> chassis of particular lines of vehicles.
>
> But I think if the EV Glider Program didn't exist they would still want
> the conversion company to meet the requirements of the existing QVM
> program if they were to sell conversion vehicles from their lots.
>
> But I see no issues with starting small and doing onesies and twosies.
> I actually received a phone call today from someone who wants to have
> their car converted.
>
> But there is actually money to be made in the EV business. Maybe I
> shouldn't mention this. I've repaired over 200 electric scooters since
> starting ScooterWerks, LLC. Mostly kids Razor scooters, Currie based
> scooters, all kinds of electric bikes and now I'm servicing the new
> e-Max scooters. Also doing warranty work for the Sharper Image, Toys R,
> Us and extended service plans from other stores. I've had people travel
> from other states to have their scooters repaired. A women drove over
> an hour today from Virginia to pick up her e-Bike I was working on.
> Plus I can fit more scooters in the garage then cars. I currently have
> 4 I'm working on now. I've had up to 23 at one time. The bike repair
> shops won't touch them so they send them my way. I'm also getting alot
> of calls from people with Personal Mobility Scooters. The calls I get
> are from people from out of town and their scooter gets damaged on the
> plane or they forget to bring their charger. So there are niches to be
> tapped.
>
> As far as converting a Taurus. They are on the heavy side aren't they?
> I don't know much about them. I think converting any gas car to run on
> electric is revenge against the auto makers so I would say go for it.
> Rip the gas guts out of the sucker and make it electric.
>
> As far as EVs making a difference, I think they do. My friend who lives
> down the street from me, Rob Neighbor, has a nice electric Fiero. One
> day we were at the same intersection next to each other waiting for the
> light. The people behind us had the benefit of not inhaling fumes from
> our cars if they were gas. If you think in those terms every little bit
> helps.
>
> See ya
>
> Chip Gribben
> ScooterWerks
> http://www.scooterwerks.com
>
>
> On Jul 7, 2006, at 6:41 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
>
>> As I posted in a previous message, the plan is to get new car dealer
>> (s) to sign on to an all-electric car, they stock and sell it
>> (finance it, lease it) they should make more profit selling it than a
>> new car. It would have some brand name, and basically have the
>> dealer warranty support. Obviously that is not an easy sell to a
>> dealer, but I think they may be some large car dealer owners that
>> might go for it for the social angle, the notoriety, if not the
>> profit potential if it takes off. The car is marketed as "recycled"
>> or something along those lines. The car would have new parts for
>> wear items, new brakes, steering, etc. Basically shiney as new, but
>> "recycled". So the prep on the basic car would not be trivial.
>> It would cost the same as a new car, a new Taurus is $20K.
>> If you give dealer $4k profit, can it be done for $16K?
>>
>> I have come to the definite conclusion that current lead-acid battery
>> technology will not work. Not enough range. Too much maintainance
>> and weight. NiMH or really Lithium is needed. So the cost of
>> Lithium must come down to make it happen. Perhaps with volume it can.
>>
>> So it seems for TODAY, the car to bring electric to the mainstream
>> isn't possible. Perhaps there is a tiny market for a high-dollar
>> electric car as status symbol, like a H2 was, now it would be the
>> anti-H2, a $50K vehicle, maybe that is what Tesla is doing. In this
>> case, you can convert a new car, the cost isn't so important. Maybe
>> that is profitable niche business, but does it really help the
>> environment?
>>
>> I think maybe a viable alternative today would be to take a new gas
>> car and ADD an aux electric drive to convert it to hybrid. Off the
>> top of my head I'd say the beetle. Add rear-wheel electric drive.
>> Make it go really fast AWD car, that gets exceptional mileage. Add
>> $10K to the $17K base price, that isn't too outrageous. But again
>> it's probably a niche short-term business.
>>
>> Jack
>
>
>
Danny Miller wrote:
> Hmmm... well, heat does rise so cooling should be more
> effective venting out the top.
Not actually; *hot* air rises, but heat radiates equally in all
directions.
Cheers,
Roger.
Reading both your posts, I'm wondering if BMS has gotten a bad rep. Please
correct me if I'm wrong (I very well may be) but weren't those installed on
many of the Sparrows? I seem to recall seeing numerous posts about that
those could fix the probs w/ batts. Perhaps these weren't BMS units, but I
seem to recall something like $30 per batt. I've also seen numerous ads for
those rigs for sale (16K paid, 22K invested) that indicates they may have
played with this sort of system. I'm wondering if the batts were degraded
before the system was applied???
Sorry, I'm probably totally off base on these units. From what I gathered,
they were very similar to Lee's home brewed units that are installed on each
batt.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Phillips" <mikep_95133@...>
To: "Lee Hart" <ev@...>
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 2:16 PM
Subject: Re: Taurus EV
> I don't see that LEE. What I see at each EAA meeting I chair are guys
> that don't see the value in it. I could not sell them on my tiny
> version of Rich's regulators. They won't even go for the Zreg at $2
> each. I don't think it's cost. It has more to do with understanding
> what you gain from it. Nobody wants to look stupid. So they avoid the
> fact that they don't understand how a simple bms works by just not
> dealing with it.
>
> Then there is the battery monitoring system. That's been done cheap
> too. John's system is a good example of that. I couldn't sell that to
> the group either. Even one simpler than John's I couldn't get a nibble
> on. Not for cash but figuritively.
>
> It's just too complicated to see for most people to even investigate
> it. Even though you and I see it as dirt simple.
>
> I think 80% of EV owners are in two camps. Just buying/building an EV
> or just selling one off. So a bms isn't a thought either way.
>
> Mike
> > The fundamental reason we don't have good battery management systems
> > (BMS) is cost. Batteries cost money. BMS cost more money. It's cheaper
> > to "use up" batteries faster than to use an expensive BMS to extend
> > their life.
EV Digest 5632
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Looking for a quite vacuum pump
by "Roderick Wilde" <roderick@...>
2) Re: DC Motor torque calculations, choosing accessory motor
by Jeff Shanab <jshanab@...>
3) Re: Fun with Z-regs
by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
4) Re: EV for a different customer.
by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
5) Re: Looking for a quite vacuum pump
by "Phil Marino" <phil_42277@...>
6) Tire info link / weight of wheels question
by "Steven Potter" <stevenpotter@...>
7) RE: Daytona 675 specs?, was 214 mph MC
by "Roger Stockton" <rstockton@...>
8) Re: String equalization and lifetime, was: Taurus EV
by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
9) Re: Return to manzanita micro dc-dc idea
by "Rich Rudman" <rmanzan@...>
10) Re: DC Motor torque calculations
by "Roland Wiench" <ev_7@...>
11) Re: DC Motor torque calculations, auto trans
by "Richard Furniss" <rfurniss1@...>
12) Re: Looking for a quite vacuum pump
by "Roland Wiench" <ev_7@...>
13) Re: Fun with Z-regs
by "Paul G." <paul-g@...>
14) Re: Daytona 675 specs?, was 214 mph MC
by mreish <mreish@...>
15) Re: String equalization and lifetime, was: Taurus EV
by Nick <elists@...>
16) Re: Return to manzanita micro dc-dc idea
by Nick Viera <jeepev@...>
17) RE: Whr/mile
by Cor van de Water <CWater@...>
18) Re: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
by "Rich Rudman" <rmanzan@...>
19) Re: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)
by "Rich Rudman" <rmanzan@...>
20) Re: DC-DC wishlist
by "Michaela Merz" <misch@...>
21) Re: Commercial BMSs (was RE: Taurus EV)
by "Rich Rudman" <rmanzan@...>
Brian, I know we sell one but I always recommend using enhanced manual
brakes. I also hate the sound of a vacuum pump. It is one of the first
things I gave the Ford rep crap about on their EV Ranger when I saw my first
one. His explanation when I asked them why the engineers did not do away
with it was actually quite logical. They wanted to use as much OEM parts as
possible. Anyway, years ago, I don't remember when exactly, they invented
the lever. I was probably a kid then. This device allowed you to put a
little pressure in one end and get a lot out the other depending on where
you put the fulcrum :-) Smart ass mode off now. In our Ford Taurus race car
and in GP we used a Wilwood 7 to 1 brake pedal assembly.
http://www.wilwood.com/Products/005-PedalAssemblies/002-FSMP/clutch/index.asp
Yes it is a bit of work to install but the resulting silence is golden.
Roderick
Roderick Wilde, President, EV Parts Inc.
Your Online EV Superstore
www.evparts.com
1-360-385-7082
Phone: 360-582-1270 Fax: 360-582-1272
PO Box 834, Carlsborg, WA 98324
108-B Business Park Loop, Sequim, WA 98382
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jody Dewey" <jodydewey@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 11:29 AM
Subject: RE: Looking for a quite vacuum pump
> EVparts.com sells a brand new one for $209.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
> Behalf Of Lewis, Brian K
> Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 10:21 AM
> To: ev@...
> Subject: Looking for a quite vacuum pump
>
>
> The GM vacuum pump that I got from a junk yard is starting to go out.
> When I start the car (turn the car on) it does not always power up right
> away. Today it took about 10 mins before I had a vacuum.
>
> I have never been happy with the pump. It was good for the price I paid
> but it is embarrassing having to explain to everyone what the horrendous
> noise is on an otherwise quite ride.
>
>
>
> I am looking for other options. Surly with all the hybrids on the road
> someone out there has already tried one in an EV?
>
>
>
>
>
> Brian
>
>
>
>
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>
>
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Saturn Vue has electric power steering also. May be the same unit.
The interesting thing about this delphi unit is that it attaches to the
column, above the rack or gearbox, So it is more readily adapted to
vehilces. It looks like I could fit it in, but to tell you the truth, I
don't seem to miss it.
I don't know about the prius one yet, but the honda has the motor on the
rack itself, so kinda of more model specific.
For AC, I have decided when I get some bucks to go get a 2004 prius
compressor and convert the car to r134, I will put the compressor, old
condensor, and a fan in the space where the fuel tank was because the
original area has 7 of my batteries.
Steve Condie wrote:
> OK, so I changed my Hart Z-regs from 2 6.8 zeners to one 6.8 and one
> 6.2 per battery. The results look good - the bulbs start to glow at
> about 13.85 volts - the zeners seem to get warm a little bit earlier.
I've tried both, as well as others (such as two 6.2v zeners and one
1N4001 diode). They each have slightly different characteristics, but
all work.
> I noticed something odd. The individual battery voltage variances
> were not linear.
That's correct. You are seeing the differences between batteries that
causes them to need equalization and balancing!
> I "calibrated" my visual assessment of the relative brightness of
> the bulbs against voltmeter readings and found that my eyeballs
> were pretty accurate, at least when comparing one bulb agains another.
The human eye is exceptionally good at spotting brightness variations.
Light bulbs also have a large brightness variation with current. These
effects combine to make it easy to see voltage differences between
batteries.
> This seems to be a pattern with several of the batteries - quicker to
> 14v means dimmer at 14.8v, and vice-versa. Anyone have any ideas why?
You're seeing that some batteries get to "full" a bit sooner. Their
voltage rises quicker to 14v, so they get full first, so their current
drops off quicker after that.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
Jeff Shanab wrote:
> ...they might be a candidate for higher priced, turnkey EV. Something
> with an AC drivetrain and advanced batteries... they totaled up the
> gasoline bill and it hit $1400 last month for them... They currently
> have trucks, SUV's and a mini SUV...
This reminded me of an idea that I think has merit.
Let's assume you have a pickup truck. You're interested in EVs, but
don't want to give up your range, cargo capacity, etc. You're also
worried about the practicality of EVs, and don't want to spend a fortune
on a conversion, only to find it won't work for you and you've wrecked a
perfectly good truck.
Suppose we made an EV "converter" that fits entirely in the bed, like a
camper. It's a big flat pallet with batteries, motor, and controller.
Open the tailgate, and slide it right in. It could have folding legs
with wheels like an ambulance stretcher, motorized to raise it up/down,
so one person can do it quickly and easily.
Make it a friction drive. Cut a hole in the tops of the wheel wells,
right above the tires. The "converter" has a rear axle with
differential, two rubber tires, and suspension to hold it against the
pickup's rear tires. Note that a significant amount of the converter's
weight is being borne directly by the tires, not the pickup's suspension
-- you have in effect added "helper springs" to the truck to carry the
extra load.
Place a rubber pad on top of the brake and accellerator pedals. Start
the car, and the ICE runs normally so you have all your accessories
(heater, A/C, power steering, etc.). When you press the pedals lightly,
the pads send signals to the "converter" to accellerate or slow down
(regenerative braking). If you press harder, the "converter" reaches its
maximum power (which is rather low due to the friction drive), and the
ICE and regular friction brakes take over.
What you have is really a hybrid!
When you need the cargo or load carrying space, just remove the EV
converter. Your stock truck is back, with just a couple holes in the
wheel wells to show where it was. The cutout pieces can be hinged to
flip back over the holes, or even welded back in when you sell the
truck.
What do you think?
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>From: "Roderick Wilde" <roderick@...>
>
>Brian, I know we sell one but I always recommend using enhanced manual
>brakes. I also hate the sound of a vacuum pump. It is one of the first
>things I gave the Ford rep crap about on their EV Ranger when I saw my
>first one. His explanation when I asked them why the engineers did not do
>away with it was actually quite logical. They wanted to use as much OEM
>parts as possible. Anyway, years ago, I don't remember when exactly, they
>invented the lever. I was probably a kid then. This device allowed you to
>put a little pressure in one end and get a lot out the other depending on
>where you put the fulcrum :-)
Sure - You can reduce the required pedal force, by either changing the
pedal/master cylinder geometry ( changing the leverage) , or by just
reducing the master cylinder bore diameter. They would have the same
effect.
But, the pedal throw will go up by the same factor that the pedal force goes
down. There's no free lunch to be had here. If you can live with a pedal
that starts up much higher, and has to be pressed down much further, that
will work. But, as some point, it would become awkward and maybe even not
as safe to use.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
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I came across the Tire Bible while doing some research for my EV
project:
http://www.carbibles.com/tyre_bible.html
It’s a very interesting read and covers just about everything you’d want
to know about tires. The one exception being it makes no reference
whatsoever to LRR tires…my main concern at the moment.
Today I’ll crawl down under and try to decipher the codes on the inside
of my alloy wheels. My truck came with huge, fat low profile radials. I
need to see if I can re-use the same wheels with LRR tires.
If I end up needing to get new wheels I’d be interested in seeing any
info about the weights of various steel and aluminum wheels. Anyone seen
this info anywhere?
Steven Potter, Toronto
’98 Ranger
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Roderick Wilde wrote:
> Does anyone know what the actual drag coefficient is for a
> Triumph Daytona 675 or a good guestimate of the amount of
> HP necessary to maintain 85 mph.
> My question to the list is: does anyone out there know
> enough about bike aerodynamics to tell me if 24 hp is
> enough to maintain 85 mph?
It isn't very scientific, but a friend's Yamaha DT125 (liquid cooled
125cc 2-stroke enduro) would *just* achieve 75-80mph. This is a
completely unfaired bike, but it is quite narrow, so while the faired
Daytona may be a bit slipperier they might also be about on par based on
CdA.
This was a early '80 model bike; I see online that the present version
seems to be rated 11kW peak power (@ 8000RPM), which is about 15HP.
I've also seen mention that fully unrestricted, etc. this bike can
achieve close to 26HP (however, my friend's bike was bone stock and
probably lucky if it made factory spec output).
I think this is fairly suggestive that 15-20HP ought to be sufficient to
maintain 80-85MPH on level ground.
Hope this helps,
Roger.
Cor van de Water wrote:
> LIFE CYCLE TESTING OF SERIES BATTERY STRINGS WITH INDIVIDUAL BATTERY
> EQUALIZERS. Hopefully the author did not have a conflict of interests.
> http://www.powerdesigners.com/pdf/PowerCheq%20Paper%20-%20Motive%20Power.pdf
Though a good paper, it is clearly written for marketing purposes and
has a noticeable bias. Basically, it demonstrates that AGMs with no
regulators die early, and that regulators extend life. We already know
that.
Here are a few things I noted:
1. It only tests one regulator, the PowerCheq device. You can't draw
any conclusions on what would happen with any other type of
regulation system or devices.
2. His charge algorithm is odd. Note in fig.13 how the voltage jumps
around, and the current changes in quantum steps. The entire charge
cycle is only 4.6 hours long -- that's very short for this type of
battery, so it can be expected that some will not reach full charge.
3. Battery 3 in the string without PowerCheqs was clearly bad; it had
a reversed cell. In fig.14, it was at 8.xx volts throughout the
discharge.
> Let's see if anybody has been running equalisers for more than 20,000
> miles and can confirm that his batteries lasted (I am only interested
> in sealed batteries, as the floodeds can be equalised in other ways)
That's good advice.
Flooded lead-acids and nicads have clearly demonstrated that they can
last a lot more than 20k miles without any kind of individual battery
regulation. They do it by not applying the low voltages described in
this paper, thereby avoiding undercharging. They equalize by
overcharging, but have more rugged plates to survive grid corrosion, and
you can easily replace the water lost to gassing.
But AGMs clearly die early if you overcharge them to equalize. I think
*any* method that prevents overcharging has been shown to lengthen their
life.
- GM's EV1 with Panasonic lead-acid AGMs, and AC Propulsion's EVs
with Optimas have both gone over 20k miles. I believe they use
low-current shunt regulators, which bypass 100-200ma.
- Vehicles with the Badicheq system have gone over 20k. It has a
single 2amp 12vin/12vout DC/DC that it switches to transfer charge
from the highest to the lowest battery. As the highest/lowest
batteries change, it moves this DC/DC to different batteries.
- My own EV has 18k miles on its nearly 8-year-old Concorde AGM pack.
Most of these miles were accumulated using my own Battery Balancer,
but it had nothing for its first 6 months, and my zener/lamp
regulators for about 1 year.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
The idea is sound.
But the tech limits are a little different. The voltage precision is tight
for 120 volts and a bit sloppy for 14.7 volts. So... it will work and
rather well, but I would install a Reg on the 12 volt rail and battery that
tightens up the regulation of the 12 rail. Since setting to 14.7 will have a
4 volt swing from full on to full off. 4 volts at 120 is tight enough, but
+- 2 volts at 12.5 as a center point is not good enough.
A Reg Mk2 or Mk3 will work to play tighter local regulation.
Keep in mind that the output amps will be the same... 20 to 40 depending on
charger model.
The "modified for Hybrid work" chargers have 3 seprate voltage setpots. And
two relay drives to support the two new voltages. Setting one for 14.7 volts
and having it go active when the key is on will work.
Then it is up to you to relay switch the source and destination of the
charger. DON'T get it wrong!!
Keep in mind your failure hazzards and this will work rather well.
Also I really strongly recomend that all the voltage threshold lines be kept
inside the charger, and as short as possible. The RF that these chargers
make gets into everything. The less opertunities you give these gremlins the
better. We have found that the Prius itself can make quite a bit of RF, that
gets coupled into what ever you are doing. In fact it is enough to force us
to use relays instead of Opto couplers.
This was even with my Gear disconnected... so It was not my noise source.
The main list needs to know that the modifications are by hand at the
moment... and are not really well documented...scraps and notes in the
PiPrius Project Note book. Two of these controllers exist at the moment. I
could publish the Cut and jump notes, since it's not rocket science, and a
good hardware hacker can figure it out in about 30 seconds. One of my
PiPrius clients needs a two speed Amp control also, so they can computer
control to at least two current settings, one being the main current knob,
the other being the charge limit to thier Addon Battery.
The Hybrid controller PCB in a Hybrid charger has 3 pair of relay drive
lines leaving the charger through a not so pretty hole in the front blue
block off plate. Adjusting the set points requires taking the blue plate off
to get at the pots. The old volts trim pot has been removed and relocated to
the other side of the RJ connector.
This is about a 30 minute hack.
With some added wires you in effect can charge your 12 volt battery from
Grid if you need to.
I would NOT do this without a real battery installed... don't go Battery
less with this araingment.. Unless you have a about 2 Farads of stiffening
cap for the 12 volts support. Really please use about 25 amhours of Lead
acid...
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <jshanab@...>
To: "Rich Rudman" <rmanzan@...>
Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 7:05 AM
Subject: Return to manzanita micro dc-dc idea
> Now that you have been playing the plug in prius game, Maybe an add on
> box to use the PFC as a dc-dc would be worth a look.
> It seems like it would be pretty easy to have 2 settings and a
> multiplexed reg port
>
> In pack charge mode, 300V and regbus one and current limit 1
> in dc-dc mode switch input and output 13,8V using the reg to control
> when the aux battery gets full.
Hello Jeff,
I find the best adapter, is the one that replaces the rear bell end plate of the
motor. If a person orders a TRACTION MOTOR, this is how it comes. Also if you
specified what engine you are going to be replacing with the motor, they tap the
side's of the motor for bolting on the standard engine mount, that was on the
engine in that vehicle. It is a direct replacement, where the motor and
transmission bolts into the same places that the engine does.
This is a true TRACTION MOTOR DESIGN.
My GE TRACTION MOTOR rear end plate which is 2.5 inches thick, will fit any bell
housing from years of 1950's to the present year, except for some year models in
the 80's. GM went back to the standard size in the 90's which will fit anything
back to the 50's.
GM makes two sizes of crank flanges, so there is now two different sizes of fly
wheel bolt patterns to fit the flange. A taper lock coupler could be made to
fit both of these flywheel, flex plates, or transmission pump shaft.
At the present, when I switch from the GE motor to the Warp motor, I have to add
a adapter to the Warp motor , but I can still use the same bell housing which is
prior 70's.
The problem with the Warp motors or ADC motors, they do not have any side
mounting bolt holes, so it can be direct bolt to a standard engine mounting. So
I wrap this motor with 1/2 steel plate, carved out to miss the field bolts and
than can tap this plate for the engine motor mounts.
I contacted NetGain about this when I order my backup motor from them. Some of
the engineers wanted to incorporate the rear end plate and install mounting bolt
taps on the side of the motor like GE does, but was turn down on this ideal
unless a person orders 100 or more for one specific vehicle.
If a person is doing EV conversions, I would special order the motors and have
them converted to TRACTION MOTORS, will be a straight drop in with some off set
brackets for different car models.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Shanab<mailto:jshanab@...>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<mailto:ev@...>
Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 7:47 AM
Subject: RE: DC Motor torque calculations
In response to "
The EV conversion business is a difficult way to make a living... ;^>"
Maybe because we don't share.
We each re-invent the adapter, no standard, no economy of scale.
What if we took this approach? (I have talked this talk before)
Standards.
7",8",9" taper lock to small block chevy crank. I got quotes for a machine
shop to make small quantities. The quote needs larger and repeat quantities to
make it feasable. This is one adapter and 3 possible taperlock sheeves we could
use on all conversions if we also use the next standard.
Button flywheel for SBC and dual plate 7" racing clutch. These are standard
wheather you use tilton,clutchmaster, and others.
The disks are the same, just order with correct spline.
Aluminum motor bell. These give a 12" dia mouting register and set back the
motor just enough to use one of the standard plate thicknesses for the tranny to
bell adapter. I don't yet know how many models differing in only the depth we
need. Once this info is had we make castings that get cleaned up in the cnc to
furthor reduce costs.
The standard thickness plate is water jet to profile, dropped in a cnc and
the 12" register is cleaned up and the entire bolt and dowel pattern is walked
off.
Stamped and folded motor mount with a 7,8,9" ubolt, made at a spring shop
that makes u bolts for large truck axles. The fine threaded 3/4 or 7/8 rod about
2 feet long costs around $10 then is bent in seconds. In Fresno, 8" is the
limit, but the machine is avil larger and is easily reproduced for our needs.
<soapbox>
Just like Otmar and Rich have specialized and are able to make cost effective
solutions, someone needs to do the same for adapters. How many of us, (except
Lee, would have an EV if we had to make the controller and charger?
</soapbox>
I have got the tooling and manufacturing background, but not the capitol and
information (that may all change, a new job is on the horizon!)
Just because we have all those car models, we shouldn't follow there example
and make all custom adapters. We are mostly using the same motor, right?
They are both; well the ones that I work on anyway, let's call them "a leaky
pressure machine". The valve body uses pressure to overcome spring pressure
but has no seals on the valves, the clutch packs use pressure to engage the
clutch but the seals on the main shaft that get the fluid to the clutch leak
a lot of fluid in order to get long life. The rear shaft uses flow for the
bearings and bushings for lubrication and to wash away heat.
it's never simple or black and white is it?
Richard Furniss
is it suppose to smoke like that?
> On the subject of using the automatic, Are transmissions flow machines
> or pressure machines?
>
> Flow system: The pump flows thru the system constantly building pressure
> as needed. If the pump shuts off the pressure drops to zero rapidly. Or
> a pressure system like older power steering systems where pressure is
> built against a pressure relieve valve.
>
> If the tranny has a pressure port that controls the valves that doesnt
> take a lot of flow, ie seperate from the torque converter circuit, then
> perhpas we could just put one of those football sized nitrogen charged
> accumulators to maintain the pressure while stopped. perhaps a pump on a
> contactor could come on to build pressure if the accumulator drains,
> like initial start up or long lights.
>
>
> How about for start up. clutch interlock on key to prevent lurching in
> gear and while in start possition a contactor pulls in a resistor and
> spins the main motor, building pressure into the accumulator. The motor
> coasts to a stop when the key is released to the run position. (make it
> like starting a diesel if it takes longer than that)
>
>
I am running a new 2005 GMC diesel pickup vacuum pump in my EV, and I do not
hear it. The brush noise on my Warp motor is at the lowest sound level, next
come four fans. The A/C fan I soap up to blast a person out of the EV is the
loudest which I used this morning when the ambient air temperature was 45
degrees.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Roderick Wilde<mailto:roderick@...>
To: ev@...<mailto:ev@...>
Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 8:56 AM
Subject: Re: Looking for a quite vacuum pump
Brian, I know we sell one but I always recommend using enhanced manual
brakes. I also hate the sound of a vacuum pump. It is one of the first
things I gave the Ford rep crap about on their EV Ranger when I saw my first
one. His explanation when I asked them why the engineers did not do away
with it was actually quite logical. They wanted to use as much OEM parts as
possible. Anyway, years ago, I don't remember when exactly, they invented
the lever. I was probably a kid then. This device allowed you to put a
little pressure in one end and get a lot out the other depending on where
you put the fulcrum :-) Smart ass mode off now. In our Ford Taurus race car
and in GP we used a Wilwood 7 to 1 brake pedal assembly.
http://www.wilwood.com/Products/005-PedalAssemblies/002-FSMP/clutch/indexasp<htt\
p://www.wilwood.com/Products/005-PedalAssemblies/002-FSMP/clutch/index.asp>
Yes it is a bit of work to install but the resulting silence is golden.
Roderick
Roderick Wilde, President, EV Parts Inc.
Your Online EV Superstore
www.evparts.com<http://www.evparts.com/>
1-360-385-7082
Phone: 360-582-1270 Fax: 360-582-1272
PO Box 834, Carlsborg, WA 98324
108-B Business Park Loop, Sequim, WA 98382
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jody Dewey" <jodydewey@...<mailto:jodydewey@...>>
To: <ev@...<mailto:ev@...>>
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 11:29 AM
Subject: RE: Looking for a quite vacuum pump
> EVparts.com sells a brand new one for $209.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ev@...<mailto:owner-ev@...>
[mailto:owner-ev@...]On
> Behalf Of Lewis, Brian K
> Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 10:21 AM
> To: ev@...<mailto:ev@...>
> Subject: Looking for a quite vacuum pump
>
>
> The GM vacuum pump that I got from a junk yard is starting to go out.
> When I start the car (turn the car on) it does not always power up right
> away. Today it took about 10 mins before I had a vacuum.
>
> I have never been happy with the pump. It was good for the price I paid
> but it is embarrassing having to explain to everyone what the horrendous
> noise is on an otherwise quite ride.
>
>
>
> I am looking for other options. Surly with all the hybrids on the road
> someone out there has already tried one in an EV?
>
>
>
>
>
> Brian
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.9/382 - Release Date: 7/4/2006
>
>
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.10/383 - Release Date: 7/7/2006
On Jul 8, 2006, at 8:38 AM, Lee Hart wrote:
>> This seems to be a pattern with several of the batteries - quicker to
>> 14v means dimmer at 14.8v, and vice-versa. Anyone have any ideas why?
>
> You're seeing that some batteries get to "full" a bit sooner. Their
> voltage rises quicker to 14v, so they get full first, so their current
> drops off quicker after that.
What Lee? If the batteries are being charged in series and a Zreg is
dimmer then that battery has a lower voltage. The current through the
battery with the dimmer reg is *slightly* higher (the current through
the reg does start at 0 and build up as the voltage increases.)
I don't know what causes the effect Steve Condie described, but I know
its real. When charging AGMs in series some will see a voltage increase
sooner (when the pack voltage is lower and the current higher) but
later in the charge (when pack voltage is higher and current lower) the
same battery will have a lower voltage than most of the pack. I know
when this gets real bad (one battery hitting 15 volts when the rest are
in the 13's, then later when the rest are in the upper 14's that one is
back down in the 13's) its a sign that the battery has been vented a
lot. The smaller differences never seemed to point to any one thing, or
even a problem (that I could determine.) I've been curious about this
issue myself.
Paul G.
Finding cold hard numbers is challenging to say the least. I did find
a couple of sources of info though that might be of help to us:
Kawasaki ZX-12 is 0.603
Hayabusa is 0.561
Source: http://snipurl.com/sx9l
At about 200 (124 mph) kilometers per hours, reducing CdA by about
0.01 adds about 1.0 k/hr to top speed. At 300 k/hr (186 mph), the
same CdA reduction adds about 3 to 4 k/hr to top speed.
Source: http://snipurl.com/sx9j
I'll take a wild guess (not even a guestimate) that they Daytona 675
is in the .85 range.
--
The Electric Motorcycle Portal
http://www.electricmotorcycles.net/
Electric Motorcycle Listserv
http://www.electricmotorcycles.net/listserv
Would there be any advantage/disadvantage to using a simple battery
regulator (such as Lee's zener/lamp setup) on flooded PbA batteries?
Obviously the cost and time to implement the system would be a
disadvantage, but would there be any benefit for flooded batteries?
Just a thought...
Nick
Lee Hart wrote:
> Cor van de Water wrote:
>> LIFE CYCLE TESTING OF SERIES BATTERY STRINGS WITH INDIVIDUAL BATTERY
>> EQUALIZERS. Hopefully the author did not have a conflict of interests.
>> http://www.powerdesigners.com/pdf/PowerCheq%20Paper%20-%20Motive%20Power.pdf
>
> Though a good paper, it is clearly written for marketing purposes and
> has a noticeable bias. Basically, it demonstrates that AGMs with no
> regulators die early, and that regulators extend life. We already know
> that.
>
> Here are a few things I noted:
>
> 1. It only tests one regulator, the PowerCheq device. You can't draw
> any conclusions on what would happen with any other type of
> regulation system or devices.
>
> 2. His charge algorithm is odd. Note in fig.13 how the voltage jumps
> around, and the current changes in quantum steps. The entire charge
> cycle is only 4.6 hours long -- that's very short for this type of
> battery, so it can be expected that some will not reach full charge.
>
> 3. Battery 3 in the string without PowerCheqs was clearly bad; it had
> a reversed cell. In fig.14, it was at 8.xx volts throughout the
> discharge.
>
>> Let's see if anybody has been running equalisers for more than 20,000
>> miles and can confirm that his batteries lasted (I am only interested
>> in sealed batteries, as the floodeds can be equalised in other ways)
>
> That's good advice.
>
> Flooded lead-acids and nicads have clearly demonstrated that they can
> last a lot more than 20k miles without any kind of individual battery
> regulation. They do it by not applying the low voltages described in
> this paper, thereby avoiding undercharging. They equalize by
> overcharging, but have more rugged plates to survive grid corrosion, and
> you can easily replace the water lost to gassing.
>
> But AGMs clearly die early if you overcharge them to equalize. I think
> *any* method that prevents overcharging has been shown to lengthen their
> life.
>
> - GM's EV1 with Panasonic lead-acid AGMs, and AC Propulsion's EVs
> with Optimas have both gone over 20k miles. I believe they use
> low-current shunt regulators, which bypass 100-200ma.
>
> - Vehicles with the Badicheq system have gone over 20k. It has a
> single 2amp 12vin/12vout DC/DC that it switches to transfer charge
> from the highest to the lowest battery. As the highest/lowest
> batteries change, it moves this DC/DC to different batteries.
>
> - My own EV has 18k miles on its nearly 8-year-old Concorde AGM pack.
> Most of these miles were accumulated using my own Battery Balancer,
> but it had nothing for its first 6 months, and my zener/lamp
> regulators for about 1 year.
Hi Rich and all,
Jeff Shanab wrote:
> Now that you have been playing the plug in prius game, Maybe an add
> on box to use the PFC as a dc-dc would be worth a look. in dc-dc mode
> switch input and output 13,8V using the reg to control when the aux
> battery gets full.
Rich Rudman wrote:
> The idea is sound.
But is it? Assuming Jeff is talking about using your standard
non-isolated PFC chargers... isn't this a very unsafe idea?
In fact I was surprised that in the other thread regarding pack voltage
to 12-Volt DC/DC converter features, no one mentioned input/output
isolation. I'm just not convinced that referencing the traction pack's
negative to the 12-volt system's negative (and thus the vehicle chassis)
is even a remotely good idea.
My 0.333 kWh,
--
-Nick
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
http://go.DriveEV.com/http://www.ACEAA.org/
--------------------------
Mike,
What is the terrain between 5 and 15 miles away from your house?
The only way I can explain the increase of consumption PER MILE
is that on trips of more than 10 miles you get into hills or
hard accel and frequent stops, or high-speed freeway driving,
while below 10 miles you are on residential streets?
About the e-bike consumption: that sounds about right.
Not only is the 12Ah, 24V pack quoted for about 18 miles range
288/18 = 16 Wh/mi according the sales dept
but also the ratio in weight is between 1/10 to 1/20 of a car,
so why not the consumption?
(I know, speeds are much lower, but also the aerodynamics of a
bicyclist is not great, the motor and controller efficiency is
likely lower than the car-version)
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: CWater@... Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: cor_van_de_water@...
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
Behalf Of Mike Willmon
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 9:34 PM
To: ev@...
Subject: RE: Whr/mile
I only have just over a month (~600 miles) on my 4000 lb truck. But I can
say the numbers look like this on average:
Up to 10 mile trips sees ~175Wh/mi
Between 10 to 20 mile trips ~285Wh/mi
Between 20 to 30 mile trips (only have a handful) ~350Wh/mi
These are under normal driving conditions, no hard accelerations to beat the
kid next to me to the next light, fairly flat,
stop-n-go on secondary streets 35-50 mph.
If I give a few demo rides to friends where I do about 10 miles with a bunch
of full power accelerations that seems to net me
about 400Wh/mi. If I did that for about 20 miles I'm sure it would be a
pitiful number. I haven't gone hard on them if I want to
make over 20 mile trips. The trends indicate I would come home at les than
%50 S.O.C.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
> Behalf Of Mike Phillips
> Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 11:51 AM
> To: ev@...
> Subject: Re: Whr/mile
>
>
> My 5000lb truck (AC vehicle) gets as good as 260 wh/mi. Normally runs
> 300-350 wh/mi.
>
> A friends 3400lb Saturn (AC vehicle) gets as good as 157 wh/mi.
> Normally runs 170-200 wh/mi.
>
> Both are round trip.
>
> Mike
>
>
> --- jmygann <jmygann@...> wrote:
>
> > In my mind this is a good test of efficiency ....
> >
> > Are there any Whr/mile figures for EV trips? Round trips with
> > average
> > speed?
> >
> > Some e-bike folks are claiming 18-20 Whr/mile No pedaling - Round
> > trip
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
The point is..
If they HAD the specs and the Bike...ready or even a sample of it.
It would have looked a LOT different..
Since even the photos that you see clearly don't have the right "Shadows",
these guys are even laying about what they are showing us..
That's the point of Rod's post and my sardonic replys.
This is not a real bike.. and is being sold as one ready to go for a price
that would land you most of a Hyabusa..(sp?)
With 80 K in my hands.. yea.. I would be going fast, But not with Goldie. I
can find better chassis than that old Rust bucket.
The step from 150 to 200 is a rather large one..ask Bill Dube...Or any one
that has gone there.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <rstockton@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 8:41 AM
Subject: RE: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
> Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> > That bike does not have the setup to do 214 at tops speed.
> > I never said 214 in the quater..
>
> No, but you alluded to performance claims requiring time slips backing
> them up before they can be taken seriously. Time slips around here tend
> to mean a run down the drag strip.
>
> What sort of setup do you think is missing to hit 214MPH? I've done
> 150+ riding two up on a Suzuki GS1150 with inferior brakes and similar
> chain drive - the two items you chose to comment on.
>
> > What we are poking fun at is it looks like a barley warmed
> > over Sub 500 CC street bike with outlandish claims, and no
> > proof.
>
> I agree that is looks more like a 1/2 litre bike than 1L+ superbike, and
> that the claims may be exaggerated, however, with a $90K pricetag I
> maintain that they can afford to throw the sort of technology at this
> that you and most other EV racers can only dream about. You'd be amazed
> at how much more performance you could get out of Goldie if you had,
> say, $80K more to invest in her than you've got in her to date.
>
> > Some how the front brakes look like toys... compared to some
> > real 1 liter 150 mph rice rockets I have actually seen.
>
> Others have suggested that the images are mockups, not photos of a real
> product; read the specs, they describe components that, as Paul Compton
> notes, are if not state of the art, are within spitting distance of it.
>
> > The simple warning is ... I bet the specs are not real.
>
> I certainly wouldn't bet against you on that ;^>
>
> But I would bet that if they build one of these, it will come closer to
> their predictions than you think.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
That's what the SB175 need ...you have to walk them.
If you use a SB350.. it's about 1/2 the forces.
Get scared.. check the SBX700 out.. it comes with a latch and lever system.
A man can not mate and unmate these. I have to stand on them and slam the
levers in one motion or they get stopped.
OK I win!! My connectors are larger than yours!!!
The 700 a are just about the most intimidating DC connector I have seen.
They have 10 Aux 20 amp pins inbetween the main pins that you can stick your
Thumb into.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <rstockton@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 8:47 AM
Subject: RE: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)
> Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> > I sure wish I had speced SB 120 s The 175s have the highest
> > insertion forces of all the SBconnectors.
>
> Hey, Rich, it could be worse; the SBX175 insertion force makes the SB175
> seem like butter in comparison. I use SB175s between my battery packs
> and my automated test setup, and SBX175s between the setup and the
> dynamic loads (I need the SBX's extra pilot contacts to allow the data
> acquisition unit to automatically shut the loads off at end of
> discharge). You can't mate/unmate an SBX175 directly, but rather have
> to "walk" it in/out of position by wiggling it side to side.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
> Define "lots of juice". That requirement seems to vary a lot from
> conversion to conversion. Some have said in the past on this list that
> 300-Watt DC/DCs are more than enough power. I still disagree... and my
> definition of a properly sized DC/DC would be something close to the
> capacity of the alternator it replaced, if not more [..]
I agree. It's always good to have enough 12V available, my DC-DC went
pretty flat the other day with lights, wipers, fan blowing full speed. In
addition, my relatively large vacuum pump was working hard (stop and go
traffic). Others may have electric windows, heated glass (front and/or
rear), pumps of all sort .. so, yes, an alternator sized DC-Dc would be
fine.
> Also, when you say usability as a battery charger do you mean that it
> needs to be able to run all the time at a constant output voltage (as
> most DC/DCs now do) to keep the battery on a 'float' charge? Or are you
> asking for a DC/DC that will perform a more sophisticated charge profile
> on the battery, such as an IUI charge (constant current, constant
> voltage, constant current)?
Well, since the DC-DC replaces the alternator, it should function like an
alternator. It would be even better if it would be able to switch
functions, i.e. if ignition is off, it provides all the services of a
'real' battery charger. But that might be too much to ask for.
Dreaming ...
Michaela
Very good.
But.. you have not seen what I have done yet.
The control to throttle back the load.. charger or controller has been
around since the Mark 2 days and the early days of the Sparrow. We did Low
Bat control in the first DCP 1200 controllers.
Nobody used it, we spent bucks and turned a SMT mount card that read all the
batteries and throttled back the controller. This was what '99, '98??
Joe and I have made sure that this feature has been kept since then in the
Mark 2, 2B and 3 Rudman Regs. Again about 2 folks have actually used it.
This makes the feature one of those nifty items that I can't make a dime on.
Now I am doing complete battery pack integration, and it has to be user
proof, or as close as the cashflow allows...
So.. the Mk3 Digi Regs.. have a nifty feature.. if the Lowbatt goes active..
it also shuts down the charger like it would of we had a hot Reg. So in
Hybrid mode.. aka the charger is ON, AC grid or DC/DC mode the Regbuss is
hot and active.. then a low Batt event can throttle back the charger.. or
Controller if a regular EV is being used..
The test was that I ran the PiPrius pack flat into my load banks.. with a
single Mk3PHEV mod reg hooked to the weakest battery. The low batt data
point was set to 10.00 volts. I full powed the chager at 7000 watts from the
Add on into the loadbank, and set up the meters and watched.....
At 10.00 volts the Yellow led came on... the charger cut back and kept the
draw on that one battery to keep it at 10 volts, The power sagged back as
that battery controlled the whole system.
NO reversals, nothing under 10 volts... NO over voltages on the recharge,
and active capacity equalization was apparent and sufficient to bring all
the protected batteries into line.
I also Data logged the event... somewheres on my old hardrive...
So Roger.....
I would put the MK3 BMS a bit farther along that you think.
The Regs are inside a Aluminum rail that has a 1/8 lexan lid... I am not
sure that anyother protections are needed. Maybe a good Conformal coating,
and some cooling air in each channel would be nice.
So....What else do I need???
Real time calculations of the Temp comp numbers to actively read temps,
recalc the corrected voltage trip points... and then reprogram the Regs?
This will be done in firmware, as soon as we get the basic Reg settled down.
Dynamic equalization based on the last charge cycle's regging activities??
Predictive dissapation?? based on cycle life, local temp, and current charge
currents and last discharge profile?
Cell by Cell real time equalization?? With charger control. Done that on the
Lions...
Really what am I missing here???
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <rstockton@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 9:12 AM
Subject: Commercial BMSs (was RE: Taurus EV)
> Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> > Valence
>
> Possibly the best example, but I believe it is oriented toward looking
> after the batteries during charge, and it is only available for
> Valence's own Li batteries.
>
> > Badicheck
>
> Is this still in production?
>
> > Toyta
> > Honda
> > Ford
>
> What have they got for pure EVs, and is any of it commercially available
> for use in EVs we build?
>
> > Lee Hart Batbalencer
>
> There's certainly potential here, but no cigar yet. At the present
> time, this is not available as a finished commercial product and it
> strictly looks after charging of batteries; no means of preventing the
> user from abusing the batteries, nor of informing the user of immiment
> battery service or failure. These features could be added, but don't
> presently exist.
>
> > Manzanita Micro Reg centered charging
>
> Again, there is potential here, but no cigar yet. I don't believe the
> Mk3s are commercially available yet, and the Mk1/Mk2's aren't suitable
> for prime time in their present packaging (susceptible to moisture,
> etc.). Again, this is a system that focusses primarily on doing
> something for the batteries during charge (and I believe the jury is
> still out on whether what they do is optimal or not). The under-voltage
> indication offers the potential of notifying the user of a battery
> fault/failure, but only after the fact; by the time the idiot light goes
> on, the battery has been abused. The system does not have the ability
> to protect the battery from the user. The Mk3's ability to communicate
> data certainly should allow a BMS to be built on their foundation, but
> they don't constitute one on their own. Get back to me when you have
> some sort of node for sale that plugs into the MK3 comms bus and
> notifies the user when the batteries start looking like they need
> attention (before one or more get overdischarged), and interfaces to the
> controller to prevent the user from dragging a battery below some
> minimum safe voltage, etc.
>
> > What do you have??? and what is the state of control and
> > reporting that make a "Real BMS" in your mind?
>
> For my own EV/research I've got a Lee Hart Balancer (in progress) and an
> HP data acquisition unit with 40 channels of 5.5 digit A/D and 20
> channels of dry contact outputs, of, and the ever faithful RS232
> E-Meter, of course. None of these constitute a real BMS as far as I'm
> concerned, but they are all useful tools to help me refine my short list
> of features for a real BMS.
>
> I think the comments I've offered above give a pretty good idea of the
> sort of features I presently think ought to be in a BMS.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
EV Digest 5633
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Roderick Wilde did something to my motor!
by Jim Husted <hi_torque_electric@...>
2) RE: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)
by "Roger Stockton" <rstockton@...>
3) RE: Daytona 675 specs?, was 214 mph MC
by "Shawn M. Waggoner \(EVDL\)" <evlist@...>
4) Re: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
by "Philippe Borges" <philippe.borges@...>
5) RE: Fun with Z-regs
by "Roger Stockton" <rstockton@...>
6) Re: String equalization and lifetime, was: Taurus EV
by Doug Weathers <dougw@...>
7) RE: Commercial BMSs (was RE: Taurus EV)
by "Roger Stockton" <rstockton@...>
8) Re: Fun with Z-regs
by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
9) Re: String equalization and lifetime, was: Taurus EV
by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
10) Re: DC Motor torque calculations
by "Peter Shabino" <wireb@...>
11) Re: Roderick Wilde did something to my motor!
by "Roderick Wilde" <roderick@...>
12) Tesla Motors electric car unveiling moved from July 12 to July 19, in Santa
Monica
by "Jorg Brown" <jbx@...>
13) Re: Roderick Wilde did something to my motor!
by Jim Husted <hi_torque_electric@...>
14) Burned Motor
by "John G. Lussmyer" <Cougar@...>
15) Re: EV for a different customer.
by Jeff Shanab <jshanab@...>
16) Re: DC Motor torque calculations
by Jeff Shanab <jshanab@...>
17) Re: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
by "BillDube@..." <billdube@...>
18) Re: Burned Motor
by Martin Klingensmith <martin-distlists@...>
19) Re: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
by Steve Condie <pdkluge@...>
20) Re: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
by "Roderick Wilde" <roderick@...>
21) Re: DC Motor torque calculations
by "Roland Wiench" <ev_7@...>
Dear List
It has come to my attention that 'Ol Rod has abused his motor once again!
Since it's also come to my attention that Rod enjoys a good public tar and
feathering I've submitted pics to my site for your viewing and judging pleasure
8^ P
Rod chastised me for not having put any links to his sites, so I've remedied
that for your ease in a public intervention to help stop this horrid motor
abuse. I ask that you all read the charges and judge him both severly, and
promptly!
Rod you know I still love you but sometimes you just have to whip out the
tough love! 8^ P
Hope you all enjoy.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
http://www.hitorqueelectric.com
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+
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Rich Rudman wrote:
> That's what the SB175 need ...you have to walk them.
> If you use a SB350.. it's about 1/2 the forces.
You must have some bum SB175s; mine plug and unplug fine. The SB350 in
my doesn't seem significantly different in insertion force than the
SB175s, but I do tend to walk it when unmating.
> Get scared.. check the SBX700 out.. it comes with a latch and
> lever system.
The latch and lever system is available for the SB350s (and perhaps the
smaller models too?); it certainly does make the connectors friendly to
users with little upper body strength ;^>
> OK I win!! My connectors are larger than yours!!!
Yep; you win! ;^>
> They have 10 Aux 20 amp pins inbetween the main pins that you
> can stick your Thumb into.
This is what makes them a bear to mate/unmate; even just the 2 PowerPole
aux contacts in the SBX make a huge difference between an SB175 and
SBX175 (the main contacts are identical other than length).
Cheers,
Roger.
Hi Rod,
Like Mike also chimed in, it's really hard to find good published numbers on
sport bikes. Comparing it to some other similarly styled bikes, my guess
would be in the mid .7's for the 675, but this is just a SWAG based on
styling similarities to other types of bikes of the same size. Also keep in
mind that part of that number is based on the frontal area of the bike,
which has to include the rider as well - and that is dynamic value.
There is a really good spreadsheet that was published last year that allows
you to input a variety of values to review the effects of lift, drag,
loading and performance on the bike at speed. It also has some power results
as well. You could input the range of Cd and specs from the 675 to see how
the results vary.
Here is the link to the spreadsheet:
http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/images/DragLift.xls
Hope that helps,
Shawn Waggoner
Florida EAA
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...] On
Behalf Of Roderick Wilde
Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 10:36 AM
To: ev@...
Subject: Daytona 675 specs?, was 214 mph MC
Does anyone know what the actual drag coefficient is for a Triumph Daytona
675 or a good guestimate of the amount of HP necessary to maintain 85 mph.
If they were going to use an eight in ADC in the bike I calculated that the
continuous current rating for the motor at 165 volts, which I think would be
the safe limit to take the motor to, would be in the neighborhood of 145
amps. At 165 volts at 145 amps you get 23,925 watts or about 24 actual
horsepower after losses. My question to the list is: does anyone out there
know enough about bike aerodynamics to tell me if 24 hp is enough to
maintain 85 mph? I would think it may but I am not sure.
Roderick Wilde
--
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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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I don't understand why people compare this bike to Bill drag racer, going
200mph in 1/4 miles is VERY hard/exepnsive but its not the point here !
This is a road superbike which only need to take -100hp during 2 miles to
attain this speed...
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <rmanzan@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 8:24 PM
Subject: Re: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
> The point is..
> If they HAD the specs and the Bike...ready or even a sample of it.
> It would have looked a LOT different..
>
> Since even the photos that you see clearly don't have the right "Shadows",
> these guys are even laying about what they are showing us..
> That's the point of Rod's post and my sardonic replys.
>
> This is not a real bike.. and is being sold as one ready to go for a price
> that would land you most of a Hyabusa..(sp?)
>
> With 80 K in my hands.. yea.. I would be going fast, But not with Goldie.
I
> can find better chassis than that old Rust bucket.
>
> The step from 150 to 200 is a rather large one..ask Bill Dube...Or any one
> that has gone there.
>
> Madman
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roger Stockton" <rstockton@...>
> To: <ev@...>
> Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 8:41 AM
> Subject: RE: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
>
>
> > Rich Rudman wrote:
> >
> > > That bike does not have the setup to do 214 at tops speed.
> > > I never said 214 in the quater..
> >
> > No, but you alluded to performance claims requiring time slips backing
> > them up before they can be taken seriously. Time slips around here tend
> > to mean a run down the drag strip.
> >
> > What sort of setup do you think is missing to hit 214MPH? I've done
> > 150+ riding two up on a Suzuki GS1150 with inferior brakes and similar
> > chain drive - the two items you chose to comment on.
> >
> > > What we are poking fun at is it looks like a barley warmed
> > > over Sub 500 CC street bike with outlandish claims, and no
> > > proof.
> >
> > I agree that is looks more like a 1/2 litre bike than 1L+ superbike, and
> > that the claims may be exaggerated, however, with a $90K pricetag I
> > maintain that they can afford to throw the sort of technology at this
> > that you and most other EV racers can only dream about. You'd be amazed
> > at how much more performance you could get out of Goldie if you had,
> > say, $80K more to invest in her than you've got in her to date.
> >
> > > Some how the front brakes look like toys... compared to some
> > > real 1 liter 150 mph rice rockets I have actually seen.
> >
> > Others have suggested that the images are mockups, not photos of a real
> > product; read the specs, they describe components that, as Paul Compton
> > notes, are if not state of the art, are within spitting distance of it.
> >
> > > The simple warning is ... I bet the specs are not real.
> >
> > I certainly wouldn't bet against you on that ;^>
> >
> > But I would bet that if they build one of these, it will come closer to
> > their predictions than you think.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Roger.
> >
>
Paul G. wrote:
> I don't know what causes the effect Steve Condie described,
> but I know its real. When charging AGMs in series some will
> see a voltage increase sooner (when the pack voltage is
> lower and the current higher) but later in the charge (when
> pack voltage is higher and current lower) the same battery
> will have a lower voltage than most of the pack.
When charging with regs of some sort the issue may get confused, but
with no regs on the string this behaviour is due, at least in part, to
differences in recombination efficiency. It only occurs with sealed
batteries (gel or AGM), and it will happen regardless of whether the
battery has been vented.
Things may differ at extremely high current, but at modest charge rates
(say 25A or less), my experience is that the module voltages will track
quite closely through the constant current bulk phase but will
immediately scatter to a greater or lesser degree upon the switch to
constant voltage. This may be due to differences in internal impedance
between the modules causing the applied voltage to divide unequally
between them.
During the final constant current finish phase, the voltages typically
remain scattered, but you don't tend to see one module's voltage drop
while another's increases; rather, they tend to ramp up to some level
and then remain there for the duration.
The voltage of a sealed (PbA) module near the end of charge are *not* a
good indicator of its SOC; the module voltages can be all over the map
near the end of charge, yet the resting voltages (which *are* a good
indicator of SOC) can be nearly identical. For this and other reasons,
I remain skeptical about the wisdom of attempting to clamp module
voltages at the end of charge as being a good way to achieve balance in
a long string.
Cheers,
Roger.
On Jul 8, 2006, at 2:13 AM, Cor van de Water wrote:
> Let's see if anybody has been running equalisers for more than 20,000
> miles and can confirm that his batteries lasted (I am only interested
> in sealed batteries, as the floodeds can be equalised in other ways)
I believe Ed Ang claims 20,000 miles on the AGMs in his Sparrow with
his own regulators.
Or perhaps that's a total of 20,000 miles among all his customers?
Sadly, I can't find my reference for this remembered tidbit, so don't
take my word for it. Perhaps Ed will set me straight?
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
<http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
Rich Rudman wrote:
> But.. you have not seen what I have done yet.
As I said, Rich, the MK3 (and Mk2 for that matter) has potential as the
basis for a BMS, it is just that the regs alone (which is all that you
offer for sale at the moment) do not constitute a BMS on their own.
The fact that you are working on developing a BMS based on the regs
simply reinforces what I said, and encourages me that you might one day
have a commercial BMS product available.
> So....What else do I need???
A commercial product. The question was what BMS systems are available
*today* for commercial/retail sale. What you or anyone else may have in
development in their lab is not relevant (though certainly encouraging).
Cheers,
Roger.
Lee Hart wrote:
>> You're seeing that some batteries get to "full" a bit sooner.
>> Their voltage rises quicker to 14v, so they get full first,
>> so their current drops off quicker after that.
"Paul G." wrote:
> What Lee? If the batteries are being charged in series and a Zreg is
> dimmer then that battery has a lower voltage. The current through the
> battery with the dimmer reg is *slightly* higher (the current through
> the reg does start at 0 and build up as the voltage increases.)
Right. But "slightly higher" may not be enough for that battery to catch
up with the rest of them. These zener-lamp regulators "lean on" a
battery to push it towards balance, rather than hit it with a hammer to
force it into balance immediately.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
Nick wrote:
> Would there be any advantage/disadvantage to using a simple battery
> regulator (such as Lee's zener/lamp setup) on flooded PbA batteries?
> Obviously the cost and time to implement the system would be a
> disadvantage, but would there be any benefit for flooded batteries?
There are still some advantages. Whether they are worth it or not
depends on what is important to you.
Reducing the amount of overcharging will reduce water usage. This saves
you time for rewatering.
Reducing water usage also keeps the battery tops cleaner, as there's
less gassing. This can reduce corrosion and mess.
It will extend their life a bit, though not as much as with sealed
batteries.
It keeps you from needing to "pound down" the strongest battery with
severe overcharging just to bring up the weakest link to full. So when a
battery does die, the others will be in better shape. It's easier to
replace just the bad one and keep driving, rather than replace the whole
pack.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
Unfortunately in most (if not all) autos the hydraulic fluid is not only the
working fluid but also used for lubrication / cooling. All the autos I have
worked on a good portion of the fluid is returned through the transmission
cooler then dumps out at various points of the transmission (ie main
bearings) where it just runs back to the sump to be picked up again. If you
loose fluid flow the transmission will just eat all the bearing surfaces
just like in a engine. (its metal on metal bearing for most of the trany
other than the main output bearing is usually ball.) So you have both worlds
running around in there. High pressure to run the clutches and valve body
and high flow for the TC and bearings.
>From: Jeff Shanab <jshanab@...>
>Reply-To: ev@...
>To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
>Subject: Re: DC Motor torque calculations
>Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2006 06:28:50 -0700
>
>On the subject of using the automatic, Are transmissions flow machines
>or pressure machines?
>
>Flow system: The pump flows thru the system constantly building pressure
>as needed. If the pump shuts off the pressure drops to zero rapidly. Or
>a pressure system like older power steering systems where pressure is
>built against a pressure relieve valve.
>
>If the tranny has a pressure port that controls the valves that doesnt
>take a lot of flow, ie seperate from the torque converter circuit, then
>perhpas we could just put one of those football sized nitrogen charged
>accumulators to maintain the pressure while stopped. perhaps a pump on a
>contactor could come on to build pressure if the accumulator drains,
>like initial start up or long lights.
>
>
>How about for start up. clutch interlock on key to prevent lurching in
>gear and while in start possition a contactor pulls in a resistor and
>spins the main motor, building pressure into the accumulator. The motor
>coasts to a stop when the key is released to the run position. (make it
>like starting a diesel if it takes longer than that)
>
Jim, some clarifications. I never said the over heating part was from the
motor seeing high voltage. I said the arcing was. The motor does have the
tach drive hooked to the Zilla and set at 7000 rpms I believe. The
overheating occurred by driving it downtown here in Port Townsend in front
drive only as we were missing a magnet from the front armature. I borrowed
one from one of the rear motors which made them unable to run because the
rear Zilla was doing it's job. I had mentioned that one of the next things I
am installing is temp gauges hooked to the brushes. I used them in the past
in road racing at Firebird to keep the motor together. It would redline the
brushes at 450 F on the straight-aways. A motor can shoot up on armature
temp in less than a second.
I was doing a bit of showing off downtown. I had high up federal officials
from Rwanda in the hacked old mail truck :-) One was The Minister of Energy
for the country and he reported directly to the president. I just had to
give them a taste of raw US electrons at work. So maybe I did get a little
lead footed downtown :-) Now you know the rest of the story!
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Husted" <hi_torque_electric@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 11:58 AM
Subject: Roderick Wilde did something to my motor!
Dear List
It has come to my attention that 'Ol Rod has abused his motor once again!
Since it's also come to my attention that Rod enjoys a good public tar and
feathering I've submitted pics to my site for your viewing and judging
pleasure 8^ P
Rod chastised me for not having put any links to his sites, so I've
remedied that for your ease in a public intervention to help stop this
horrid motor abuse. I ask that you all read the charges and judge him both
severly, and promptly!
Rod you know I still love you but sometimes you just have to whip out the
tough love! 8^ P
Hope you all enjoy.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
http://www.hitorqueelectric.com
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+
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On 6/5/06, Jorg Brown <jbx@...> wrote:
> But I think I can say that these guys are to be taken seriously (you
> wouldn't worry about federal safety standards unless you were serious
> about selling a lot of cars), and this is the first electric car that my wife
> actually likes the looks of.
http://macworld-cnet.com.com/2100-11389_3-6080269.html?part=macworld-cnet&tag=60\
80269&subj=news
>
> A Silicon Valley start-up is expected to show off an electric car this
> summer that it says can hang with Porsches and Ferraris and has attracted
> investments from the founders of Google and eBay.
>
> Tesla Motors says its Tesla Roadster can accelerate, brake and handle like
> a high-end sports car. The company, in fact, claims the car can accelerate
> from zero to 60 mph in four seconds.
>
> The big difference is that it runs completely on electricity. It plugs into
> the wall and is not a hybrid. The battery gives it a range of 250 miles.
>
> "We have made a sports car that is really a sports car," said CEO Martin
> Eberhard. "It is first and fundamentally a driver's car."
>
> A public unveiling of the car is slated for July 12 in Santa Monica,
> Calif., in which buyers will also be able to sign up to buy the first cars
> that come off the line.
A note of correction: the unveiling has been moved to July 19th, 8PM,
in Santa Monica. If you go to the http://www.teslamotors.com/ site,
you'll notice a countdown timer for the unveiling; I guess on the day
after the event they'll make their web site more informative.
Tesla is calling the event the "signature one hundred event".
Hey Rod
You know I'm just having a little wiennie roast with you 8^ P It is nice to
finally weasle the whole story from you though, hehe. If it was for diplimatic
relations I guess it makes it justifiable, maybe. You know it's funny you
mention Rwanda as I got an official looking email from there a while back
wanting to give me money. I took it as a phish and trashed it, lmao! It
probably was but I wonder now...Damn!, lol.
Now if I read your post correctly, you were using just "my" motor to power GP
with not only you but others inside while hot-rodding around town? I just want
to get my facts straight cause that sounds sooo much better for you than the
motor molistations I accussed you of, lmao! Actually if that was the case I'm
rather pleased then 8^ D
Anyway I hope you don't mind me having a little fun while I'm up-loading pics
(a motor guys got to have some fun). Hey if I didn't care I'd fix it, pat your
head, tell you good boy, and send you on your way, hehe.
I've got some ideas I want to run by you so I'll give you a call Monday to
discuss. Got to go, have family in from out of state.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
Roderick Wilde <roderick@...> wrote:
Jim, some clarifications. I never said the over heating part was from the
motor seeing high voltage. I said the arcing was. The motor does have the
tach drive hooked to the Zilla and set at 7000 rpms I believe. The
overheating occurred by driving it downtown here in Port Townsend in front
drive only as we were missing a magnet from the front armature. I borrowed
one from one of the rear motors which made them unable to run because the
rear Zilla was doing it's job. I had mentioned that one of the next things I
am installing is temp gauges hooked to the brushes. I used them in the past
in road racing at Firebird to keep the motor together. It would redline the
brushes at 450 F on the straight-aways. A motor can shoot up on armature
temp in less than a second.
I was doing a bit of showing off downtown. I had high up federal officials
from Rwanda in the hacked old mail truck :-) One was The Minister of Energy
for the country and he reported directly to the president. I just had to
give them a taste of raw US electrons at work. So maybe I did get a little
lead footed downtown :-) Now you know the rest of the story!
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Husted"
To:
Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 11:58 AM
Subject: Roderick Wilde did something to my motor!
Dear List
It has come to my attention that 'Ol Rod has abused his motor once again!
Since it's also come to my attention that Rod enjoys a good public tar and
feathering I've submitted pics to my site for your viewing and judging
pleasure 8^ P
Rod chastised me for not having put any links to his sites, so I've
remedied that for your ease in a public intervention to help stop this
horrid motor abuse. I ask that you all read the charges and judge him both
severly, and promptly!
Rod you know I still love you but sometimes you just have to whip out the
tough love! 8^ P
Hope you all enjoy.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
http://www.hitorqueelectric.com
---------------------------------
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Do you Yahoo!?
Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
I had an 8" ADC (w/ broken brushworks) sitting on the shelf in my
shop when it burned.
Is the motor salvageable? Or is it trash now.
Note that this was a HOT fire. Aluminum melted, and the concrete
floor is shattered down 1 or 2 inches.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:Cougar@...
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
Interesting, but I would think the user would be paranoid that the
friction drive would tear up tires.
Also the torque direct to the wheel is kinda high.
I have thought of 2 similar ideas.
1. A replacement rear suspension for my FWD grand am that has a
motor. this "kit" bolts in in a weekend and accepts 10 orbitals between
the rear strut towers keeping the useable part of the trunk. Instant
plug in hybrid.
2. same Idea as you except driving the driveline with a chain. The
motor is mounted in the middle of the sled and a hole in the bed allows
for a lovejoy coupling to chain drive. Cut 3" x 6" hole in bed, slide it
up and bolt to the rear of tranny, then re-attach driveline. It would
add about a 1/4" to drive line length. We just need to mount the motor
on rubber mounts to allow some movement. Tap into the ICE throttle
position pot, most are a 5K or 6K pot anyway. put a hydralic pressure
sensor on the brake line. Like from Omega engineering.
Any of these instant hybrids could really get a large mass of people
into EV's in a big way. We could even sell as part of the kit a 2hp
motor to mount on the single serpentine belt and put a overrun clutch on
the main crank, then it can shutdown at will.
Roland, you hit on the problem.
If the adapter is simple, standard and changes only in 1 dimension,
quantity discounts can be had. Making it a direct drop in for each model
and you have to make 100 of them to recoup your tooling.
Look at mine, I went to Small block chevy 2 piece oil seal as my
standard, The new one you mention is to kinda tough (small) to get an
effective taper lock in
The problem is the motors are chaepest right now with a stupid keyed
shaft. why not just have a shaft that presents the SBC pattern, be
pressed into the armature just like the current one, The only issue
would be larger diameter bearings capable of handling the clutch forces
would be needed. Why??? because we can agree on the keyed shaft, we
can't agree on what standard to make for a crank pattern.
I vote for the older SBC because the clutch situation is solved by all
the IMCA, modified, IMSA, Nascar, and Formula 1 guys.
You are correct. For steady-state the HP
requirement is proportional to the velocity
cubed. HP ~ V^3. In drag racing, however, the HP
requirement is the FOURTH POWER of top speed. HP ~ V^4
This means that if it takes 100 HP to
get a 100 MPH trap speed in the 1/4 mile, you
will need 1600 HP to get to 200 MPH.
A good example of this is when Going
Postal ran something like 80 MPH it's first time
out. Folks were thinking "Wow, just a little more
work and he can get it over 100 MPH." If you do
the math, you discover that it you would have to
make a lot more than twice the HP (actually 2.44
times) to bump up the trap speed just 20 MPH
more. It is a lot harder to improve trap speed than you would think at first.
ET takes good vehicle set-up. Trap speed takes raw HP.
Bill Dube'
At 12:52 PM 7/8/2006, you wrote:
>I don't understand why people compare this bike to Bill drag racer, going
>200mph in 1/4 miles is VERY hard/exepnsive but its not the point here !
>This is a road superbike which only need to take -100hp during 2 miles to
>attain this speed...
>
>cordialement,
>Philippe
>
>Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
>quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
>Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
>http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Rich Rudman" <rmanzan@...>
>To: <ev@...>
>Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 8:24 PM
>Subject: Re: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
>
>
> > The point is..
> > If they HAD the specs and the Bike...ready or even a sample of it.
> > It would have looked a LOT different..
> >
> > Since even the photos that you see clearly don't have the right "Shadows",
> > these guys are even laying about what they are showing us..
> > That's the point of Rod's post and my sardonic replys.
> >
> > This is not a real bike.. and is being sold as one ready to go for a price
> > that would land you most of a Hyabusa..(sp?)
> >
> > With 80 K in my hands.. yea.. I would be going fast, But not with Goldie.
>I
> > can find better chassis than that old Rust bucket.
> >
> > The step from 150 to 200 is a rather large one..ask Bill Dube...Or any one
> > that has gone there.
> >
> > Madman
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Roger Stockton" <rstockton@...>
> > To: <ev@...>
> > Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 8:41 AM
> > Subject: RE: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
> >
> >
> > > Rich Rudman wrote:
> > >
> > > > That bike does not have the setup to do 214 at tops speed.
> > > > I never said 214 in the quater..
> > >
> > > No, but you alluded to performance claims requiring time slips backing
> > > them up before they can be taken seriously. Time slips around here tend
> > > to mean a run down the drag strip.
> > >
> > > What sort of setup do you think is missing to hit 214MPH? I've done
> > > 150+ riding two up on a Suzuki GS1150 with inferior brakes and similar
> > > chain drive - the two items you chose to comment on.
> > >
> > > > What we are poking fun at is it looks like a barley warmed
> > > > over Sub 500 CC street bike with outlandish claims, and no
> > > > proof.
> > >
> > > I agree that is looks more like a 1/2 litre bike than 1L+ superbike, and
> > > that the claims may be exaggerated, however, with a $90K pricetag I
> > > maintain that they can afford to throw the sort of technology at this
> > > that you and most other EV racers can only dream about. You'd be amazed
> > > at how much more performance you could get out of Goldie if you had,
> > > say, $80K more to invest in her than you've got in her to date.
> > >
> > > > Some how the front brakes look like toys... compared to some
> > > > real 1 liter 150 mph rice rockets I have actually seen.
> > >
> > > Others have suggested that the images are mockups, not photos of a real
> > > product; read the specs, they describe components that, as Paul Compton
> > > notes, are if not state of the art, are within spitting distance of it.
> > >
> > > > The simple warning is ... I bet the specs are not real.
> > >
> > > I certainly wouldn't bet against you on that ;^>
> > >
> > > But I would bet that if they build one of these, it will come closer to
> > > their predictions than you think.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Roger.
> > >
> >
John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> I had an 8" ADC (w/ broken brushworks) sitting on the shelf in my shop
> when it burned.
> Is the motor salvageable? Or is it trash now.
> Note that this was a HOT fire. Aluminum melted, and the concrete
> floor is shattered down 1 or 2 inches.
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:Cougar@...
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
> http://www.CasaDelGato.com
>
Sorry I'm no expert but if it got as hot as you say there's no way it's
worth anything but scrap.
--
Martin K
Yeah - we should be comparing it to other 457 pound electric motorcycles with 50
- 100 miles of range ....
Philippe Borges <philippe.borges@...> wrote: I don't understand why
people compare this bike to Bill drag racer, going
200mph in 1/4 miles is VERY hard/exepnsive but its not the point here !
This is a road superbike which only need to take -100hp during 2 miles to
attain this speed...
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman"
To:
Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 8:24 PM
Subject: Re: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
> The point is..
> If they HAD the specs and the Bike...ready or even a sample of it.
> It would have looked a LOT different..
>
> Since even the photos that you see clearly don't have the right "Shadows",
> these guys are even laying about what they are showing us..
> That's the point of Rod's post and my sardonic replys.
>
> This is not a real bike.. and is being sold as one ready to go for a price
> that would land you most of a Hyabusa..(sp?)
>
> With 80 K in my hands.. yea.. I would be going fast, But not with Goldie.
I
> can find better chassis than that old Rust bucket.
>
> The step from 150 to 200 is a rather large one..ask Bill Dube...Or any one
> that has gone there.
>
> Madman
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roger Stockton"
> To:
> Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 8:41 AM
> Subject: RE: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
>
>
> > Rich Rudman wrote:
> >
> > > That bike does not have the setup to do 214 at tops speed.
> > > I never said 214 in the quater..
> >
> > No, but you alluded to performance claims requiring time slips backing
> > them up before they can be taken seriously. Time slips around here tend
> > to mean a run down the drag strip.
> >
> > What sort of setup do you think is missing to hit 214MPH? I've done
> > 150+ riding two up on a Suzuki GS1150 with inferior brakes and similar
> > chain drive - the two items you chose to comment on.
> >
> > > What we are poking fun at is it looks like a barley warmed
> > > over Sub 500 CC street bike with outlandish claims, and no
> > > proof.
> >
> > I agree that is looks more like a 1/2 litre bike than 1L+ superbike, and
> > that the claims may be exaggerated, however, with a $90K pricetag I
> > maintain that they can afford to throw the sort of technology at this
> > that you and most other EV racers can only dream about. You'd be amazed
> > at how much more performance you could get out of Goldie if you had,
> > say, $80K more to invest in her than you've got in her to date.
> >
> > > Some how the front brakes look like toys... compared to some
> > > real 1 liter 150 mph rice rockets I have actually seen.
> >
> > Others have suggested that the images are mockups, not photos of a real
> > product; read the specs, they describe components that, as Paul Compton
> > notes, are if not state of the art, are within spitting distance of it.
> >
> > > The simple warning is ... I bet the specs are not real.
> >
> > I certainly wouldn't bet against you on that ;^>
> >
> > But I would bet that if they build one of these, it will come closer to
> > their predictions than you think.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Roger.
> >
>
---------------------------------
Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
Bill, by the way, GP ran 98 mph with the screws turned down and a blown
tranny. The run before we were at 80 mph at the eighth. The second run when
the gears stripped off third I had hit the brakes. When I decided to nail it
we were only at 74 mph at the eighth but 98 at the quarter 5.1 seconds
later. You do your math and you will see she's got a lot more in her for a
hacked up old postal van. As it said in the movie. "You ain't seen the last
of Gone Postal!"
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "BillDube@..." <billdube@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 2:05 PM
Subject: Re: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
You are correct. For steady-state the HP
requirement is proportional to the velocity
cubed. HP ~ V^3. In drag racing, however, the HP
requirement is the FOURTH POWER of top speed. HP ~ V^4
This means that if it takes 100 HP to
get a 100 MPH trap speed in the 1/4 mile, you
will need 1600 HP to get to 200 MPH.
A good example of this is when Going
Postal ran something like 80 MPH it's first time
out. Folks were thinking "Wow, just a little more
work and he can get it over 100 MPH." If you do
the math, you discover that it you would have to
make a lot more than twice the HP (actually 2.44
times) to bump up the trap speed just 20 MPH
more. It is a lot harder to improve trap speed than you would think at
first.
ET takes good vehicle set-up. Trap speed takes raw HP.
Bill Dube'
At 12:52 PM 7/8/2006, you wrote:
>I don't understand why people compare this bike to Bill drag racer, going
>200mph in 1/4 miles is VERY hard/exepnsive but its not the point here !
>This is a road superbike which only need to take -100hp during 2 miles to
>attain this speed...
>
>cordialement,
>Philippe
>
>Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
>quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
>Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
>http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Rich Rudman" <rmanzan@...>
>To: <ev@...>
>Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 8:24 PM
>Subject: Re: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
>
>
> > The point is..
> > If they HAD the specs and the Bike...ready or even a sample of it.
> > It would have looked a LOT different..
> >
> > Since even the photos that you see clearly don't have the right
> > "Shadows",
> > these guys are even laying about what they are showing us..
> > That's the point of Rod's post and my sardonic replys.
> >
> > This is not a real bike.. and is being sold as one ready to go for a
> > price
> > that would land you most of a Hyabusa..(sp?)
> >
> > With 80 K in my hands.. yea.. I would be going fast, But not with
> > Goldie.
>I
> > can find better chassis than that old Rust bucket.
> >
> > The step from 150 to 200 is a rather large one..ask Bill Dube...Or any
> > one
> > that has gone there.
> >
> > Madman
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Roger Stockton" <rstockton@...>
> > To: <ev@...>
> > Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 8:41 AM
> > Subject: RE: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
> >
> >
> > > Rich Rudman wrote:
> > >
> > > > That bike does not have the setup to do 214 at tops speed.
> > > > I never said 214 in the quater..
> > >
> > > No, but you alluded to performance claims requiring time slips backing
> > > them up before they can be taken seriously. Time slips around here
> > > tend
> > > to mean a run down the drag strip.
> > >
> > > What sort of setup do you think is missing to hit 214MPH? I've done
> > > 150+ riding two up on a Suzuki GS1150 with inferior brakes and similar
> > > chain drive - the two items you chose to comment on.
> > >
> > > > What we are poking fun at is it looks like a barley warmed
> > > > over Sub 500 CC street bike with outlandish claims, and no
> > > > proof.
> > >
> > > I agree that is looks more like a 1/2 litre bike than 1L+ superbike,
> > > and
> > > that the claims may be exaggerated, however, with a $90K pricetag I
> > > maintain that they can afford to throw the sort of technology at this
> > > that you and most other EV racers can only dream about. You'd be
> > > amazed
> > > at how much more performance you could get out of Goldie if you had,
> > > say, $80K more to invest in her than you've got in her to date.
> > >
> > > > Some how the front brakes look like toys... compared to some
> > > > real 1 liter 150 mph rice rockets I have actually seen.
> > >
> > > Others have suggested that the images are mockups, not photos of a
> > > real
> > > product; read the specs, they describe components that, as Paul
> > > Compton
> > > notes, are if not state of the art, are within spitting distance of
> > > it.
> > >
> > > > The simple warning is ... I bet the specs are not real.
> > >
> > > I certainly wouldn't bet against you on that ;^>
> > >
> > > But I would bet that if they build one of these, it will come closer
> > > to
> > > their predictions than you think.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Roger.
> > >
> >
--
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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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Yes, I would go with the older crank flange type. If a person is going to do a
conversion, use the large flange flywheel or flex plate. I found that these old
style flywheels can be used on a the later model transmissions that that uses
the large 14 inch fly wheels design for the smaller engine crank flange.
These older large flange flywheels are design for a internal balance engine, so
the flywheel is balance in it self.
I find with the small flange taper lock, that it pushes the transmission back,
because the transmission pilot shaft bearing is not set in the same position as
it would be for engine. When I install the Warp motor in the same place the GE
motor was place, it push the transmission back 5/8 inch back from the normal
position.
My transmission pilot shaft goes into the brass bushing that is inserted into
the GE motor shaft using the large flange adapter. The taper lock coupler has
the brass pilot bushing set into the coupler for the small flange adapters,
which moves the transmission back.
The motor adapter plates are 2.75 inches thick for the Warp motors. If the
adapter plate was part of the rear motor housing like the GE was, than a 2 inch
adapter would work.
I ran with both flanges, and I am going to install the large flange adapter back
on, with a very light weight fly wheel that is 12 inches in diameter.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Shanab<mailto:jshanab@...>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<mailto:ev@...>
Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 3:53 PM
Subject: Re: DC Motor torque calculations
Roland, you hit on the problem.
If the adapter is simple, standard and changes only in 1 dimension,
quantity discounts can be had. Making it a direct drop in for each model
and you have to make 100 of them to recoup your tooling.
Look at mine, I went to Small block chevy 2 piece oil seal as my
standard, The new one you mention is to kinda tough (small) to get an
effective taper lock in
The problem is the motors are chaepest right now with a stupid keyed
shaft. why not just have a shaft that presents the SBC pattern, be
pressed into the armature just like the current one, The only issue
would be larger diameter bearings capable of handling the clutch forces
would be needed. Why??? because we can agree on the keyed shaft, we
can't agree on what standard to make for a crank pattern.
I vote for the older SBC because the clutch situation is solved by all
the IMCA, modified, IMSA, Nascar, and Formula 1 guys.
EV Digest 5634
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Roderick Wilde did something to my motor!
by Jeff Shanab <jshanab@...>
2) RE: Burned Motor
by <smart@...>
3) Re: EV for a different customer.
by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
4) Re: Burned Motor
by "David Roden" <evpost@...>
5) RE: String equalization and lifetime, was: Taurus EV
by Cor van de Water <CWater@...>
6) RE: Tire info link / weight of wheels question
by Cor van de Water <CWater@...>
7) Re: Burned Motor
by "Tom Carpenter" <ki8as@...>
8) Re: sick PMC-25
by "David Roden" <evpost@...>
9) RE: String equalization and lifetime
by "David Roden" <evpost@...>
10) RE: String equalization and lifetime
by Steve Condie <pdkluge@...>
11) Automatic transmission viable for drag racing
by "BFRListmail" <listmail@...>
12) Protecting the zilla
by Jeff Shanab <jshanab@...>
13) Re: String equalization and lifetime, was: Taurus EV
by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
14) Re: String equalization and lifetime
by Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
15) RE: String equalization and lifetime, was: Taurus EV
by Cor van de Water <CWater@...>
16) Re: Roderick Wilde did something to my motor!
by "Michael Perry" <mperry@...>
17) Re: Automatic transmission viable for drag racing
by "David Roden" <evpost@...>
18) RE: Burned Motor
by "John G. Lussmyer" <Cougar@...>
19) RE: Whr/mile
by Mike Willmon <electrabishi@...>
20) Re: Burned Motor
by "Philippe Borges" <philippe.borges@...>
21) RE: Controller Simulations (Was RE: FasTrack 0-60 mph Data)
by Mike Willmon <electrabishi@...>
22) Re: Automatic transmission viable for drag racing
by "BFRListmail" <listmail@...>
23) Re: Protecting the zilla
by "Roland Wiench" <ev_7@...>
24) Re: Protecting the zilla
by Dave Cover <davecover@...>
25) Re: Update , From Tony's
by Jim Husted <hi_torque_electric@...>
"Justafiable motorcide" he he, I like it, I guess wayland and rudmen
are competeing for the "justifiable battricide" award. ;-)
John,
Did you say the Sparrow burned? I have followed your sparrow for some time
and I hope that's not the case.
Pedroman
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...] On
Behalf Of John G. Lussmyer
Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 5:44 PM
To: EV Discussion List
Subject: Burned Motor
I had an 8" ADC (w/ broken brushworks) sitting on the shelf in my
shop when it burned.
Is the motor salvageable? Or is it trash now.
Note that this was a HOT fire. Aluminum melted, and the concrete
floor is shattered down 1 or 2 inches.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:Cougar@...
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
Jeff Shanab wrote:
> Interesting, but I would think the user would be paranoid that the
> friction drive would tear up tires.
I agree; it sounds kind of hokey. But give it some thought before
dismissing it.
If you use a small roller running on a big tire (like electric bikes),
then a friction drive is rather poor. Transmitting high torque thru that
small contact patch requires high contact pressure. But this makes the
tire deflect a lot. This creates lots of wear and friction.
But now consider it with a much larger tire. Suppose you used the same
size tire for the friction rollers as the back tires of the truck. A
good radial tire has 0.6% to 0.8% rolling resistance. If you press *two*
such tires together, both at the same inflation pressure, then the
contact patch between them is a flat spot, of the same size and shape as
if it were rolling on the road. So each has its normal traction, rolling
resistance, wear, etc.
So now we have three contact patches; tire to road, tire to roller, and
roller to tire. Our rolling resistance should be 3 times that of the
tire alone, or about 3x0.6% = 1.8% to 3x0.8% = 2.4%. The truck's back
tires should only wear twice as fast, the friction tire wears normally,
and you have 100% of the tire's normal traction.
Now as a practical matter, I'd probably use a bit smaller tire for the
friction roller. It gives you a gear reduction effect, simplifying
finding a differential and electric motor that will work without any
further gearing. I'd probably also reduce the contact pressure on the
friction roller, since the electric drive will have a smaller motor and
controller, suited to modest around-town driving rather than hill-climbs
or drag racing.
I'd probably also arrange some sort of automatic system that incresed
the roller pressure as electric motor torque (current) increased. That
way, coasting along would have minimal pressure and so minimal drag.
> Also the torque direct to the wheel is kinda high.
Not really. I'm envisioning this for modest low-speed around-town
driving. Use the ICE when you want to accellerate fast, climb hills, or
pull trailers.
> 1. A replacement rear suspension for my FWD grand am that has a
> motor. this "kit" bolts in in a weekend and accepts 10 orbitals between
> the rear strut towers keeping the useable part of the trunk. Instant
> plug in hybrid.
> 2. same Idea as you except driving the driveline with a chain. The
> motor is mounted in the middle of the sled and a hole in the bed allows
> for a lovejoy coupling to chain drive. Cut 3" x 6" hole in bed, slide it
> up and bolt to the rear of tranny, then re-attach driveline. It would
> add about a 1/4" to drive line length. We just need to mount the motor
> on rubber mounts to allow some movement. Tap into the ICE throttle
> position pot, most are a 5K or 6K pot anyway. put a hydralic pressure
> sensor on the brake line. Like from Omega engineering.
Both of these can work, too. Just more work.
> Any of these instant hybrids could really get a large mass of people
> into EV's in a big way. We could even sell as part of the kit a 2hp
> motor to mount on the single serpentine belt and put a overrun clutch on
> the main crank, then it can shutdown at will.
Exactly! If people had a painless, reversible way to try "hybridizing"
or "EV-izing" their present car, they'd be a lot more likely to try it!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
On 8 Jul 2006 at 14:43, John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> I had an 8" ADC (w/ broken brushworks) sitting on the shelf in my
> shop when it burned.
I didn't know your shop had burned. What happened? Is everyone OK? Was
the fire related to the Sparrow? Was it damaged?
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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Lee wrote:
> - My own EV has 18k miles on its nearly 8-year-old Concorde AGM pack.
> Most of these miles were accumulated using my own Battery Balancer,
> but it had nothing for its first 6 months, and my zener/lamp
> regulators for about 1 year.
The first few months the batteries tend to stay together very well,
if they are all the same production date and SOC to begin with.
Differences build up over time.
What voltage do you charge your batteries to avoid the grid
corrosion caused by too high (equalization) charge that is not
necessary due to the electronic equalization?
I have always charged my AGMS with 2.28V/cell (13.7 per battery
and 356V on a 312V pack)
while occasionally (once a month) increased voltage to 385V
(14.8V per battery, 2.47V per cell) but only kept it there until
the current dropped to about 1A, which usually happened within
1/2 hour from the state of float-charging at 356V.
Note that I used this increased voltage with a fixed 2A limit
to limit gassing as the recombiners should be able to keep up
with the amount of gas produced at that current in my 110 Ah
batteries.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: CWater@... Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: cor_van_de_water@...
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
Steven,
You have a Ranger.
Wheel weight is quite irrelevant for a truck, unless you drag-race it.
My truck has Tigerpaws, I inflated them to 50 PSI to reduce the
rolling resistance.
See http://evalbum.com/694
I am currently shopping around for decently priced LRR tires for
my classic Prius.
It came OEM with Bridgestone Potenza RE92 XL but those are
shockingly expensive in most shops.
Alternatives are the Sumitomo HTR 200 and Walmarts Goodyear Viva 2
which are both very reasonably priced, around $50 and are both LRR.
Walmart cannot ship even though they show the tire in stock and I have
not found a local place that can get me the Sumitomo.
I'll keep looking.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: CWater@... Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: cor_van_de_water@...
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ev@... [mailto:owner-ev@...]On
Behalf Of Steven Potter
Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 8:18 AM
To: 'EV List'
Subject: Tire info link / weight of wheels question
I came across the Tire Bible while doing some research for my EV
project:
http://www.carbibles.com/tyre_bible.html
It’s a very interesting read and covers just about everything you’d want
to know about tires. The one exception being it makes no reference
whatsoever to LRR tires…my main concern at the moment.
Today I’ll crawl down under and try to decipher the codes on the inside
of my alloy wheels. My truck came with huge, fat low profile radials. I
need to see if I can re-use the same wheels with LRR tires.
If I end up needing to get new wheels I’d be interested in seeing any
info about the weights of various steel and aluminum wheels. Anyone seen
this info anywhere?
Steven Potter, Toronto
’98 Ranger
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.10/383 - Release Date: 7/7/2006
My Dad had a fire in his paint shop that melted carberetors down into intake
manifolds and took 36 I beems and bent them like cork screws. Took a Bear
Machine frame straightener and warped it but he was still able to send hi
12hp 3phase dc motor in of the compressor and have it rewond and rebuilt and
it worked perfect after that.
Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <Cougar@...>
To: "EV Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 5:43 PM
Subject: Burned Motor
>I had an 8" ADC (w/ broken brushworks) sitting on the shelf in my shop when
>it burned.
> Is the motor salvageable? Or is it trash now.
> Note that this was a HOT fire. Aluminum melted, and the concrete floor is
> shattered down 1 or 2 inches.
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:Cougar@...
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.8/381 - Release Date: 7/3/2006
>
>
Roger, I know of someone who has reverse engineered the PMC-xx controllers
and was able to repair a similar problem. I tried to email you at the
address from which you posted, but the message bounced. Please contact me
by private email at the address obtained by concatenating :
mailname == evadm
the commercial at sign
second level domain == drmm
top level domain (tld) == net
That is, mailname@... (but use the right elements)
Sorry to be so weird about it, but I'm trying to avoid letting the spambots
harvest that mail address.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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You can't get away from equalization entirely. Don't forget that even if
individual modules in the pack are apparently balanced by some kind of bms,
the individual cells within those modules may not be balanced. Eventually,
you'll still have to carry out some kind of equalization at the module level
to balance those cells.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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I'm struggling with this, too. I have the same AGM's as Cor - UB121100's - and
I'm just not sure which way to go. I've charged them at 13.7. I've charged
them at 14.8 and then cut back to 13.7. I've got Z-regs which don't appear to
do anything below 13.8, so if I don't go higher I won't get any equalization
action from them. But I'm worried about what higher voltage will do to my
sealed batteries. <sigh> I guess there's no easily discernable answer, is
there? We're all looking for the magic charging formula which will deliver
maximum life, minimum charge time, and maximum equalization. And the thing is,
the darn batteries are like little creatures - each battery - heck, each
**cell** has its individual personality, strengths and weaknesses that you can't
tell from the outside. Chemistry!
David Roden <evpost@...> wrote: You can't get away from equalization
entirely. Don't forget that even if
individual modules in the pack are apparently balanced by some kind of bms,
the individual cells within those modules may not be balanced. Eventually,
you'll still have to carry out some kind of equalization at the module level
to balance those cells.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
Hello all,
I'm toying with the idea of stepping out of the low voltage bikes, and into a
drag car. Probably a Chevy Vega, Chevy Monza, Mazda RX7, something along those
lines. Say 11" GE motor. How about a 3 speed automatic. Maybe Chevy Turbo
350, but probably Chevy Turbo 400 to ensure it can handle the high torque. Now
I know a few guys have used the powerglide. No Torque Converter. Manual Valve
Body. I'm sure there's some out there, maybe street cars running a 3 speed
auto, but I don't believe there's anybody racing one.
OK, why the 3 speed in a lightweight car? Well I was hoping to get buy on the
cheap without a zilla, maybe some series parallel pack switching. Maybe some
field weakening.
Bottom line, are there going to be tremendous losses in the automatic
transmission? Without the torque converter, the efficiency should increase a
lot. Will the gains of keeping the motor in the powerband longer outweigh the
transmission losses? Any obvious problems with this solution? It might not be
optimal, but I think it would be worth a try.
Darin Gilbert
BadFishRacing
I had allowed water to get to my Zila and Otmar had to fix it. SO, I am
trying to rearrange under the hood and get the electronics into a box.
I made lots of progress today and took some pictures. Hopefully there is
enough of good ideas to offset the "why did he do that" ?.
cvevs.jfs-tech.com under heading "putting the zilla in a box" are these
5 pictures
http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/dsc00144.jpg titled Mmmm, bussbars
http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/dsc00145.jpg Pump and resivoir
http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/dsc00146.jpg Closeup of pump, this is a
swiftech MCP 350, may be too small
http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/dsc00147.jpg Water cooled vicor
http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/dsc00148.jpg on to the radiator
I was getting worried, things just weren't going right, but they started
to come togather today.
Cor van de Water wrote:
> [to Lee] What voltage do you charge your batteries to avoid the
> grid corrosion caused by too high (equalization) charge that is
> not necessary due to the electronic equalization?
My charger is set up to put back 100% of the amphours removed at a bulk
charge rate of 5-10 amps; at this point the batteries will be at around
14.4v. Then the charger holds the voltage constant and lets the current
taper down to 0.5 amps at 14.8v (per 12v battery), or a timer shuts it
off after two hours.
The zener-lamp regulators are on it at the moment; so in fact a battery
at 14.8v gets only 0.1 amps (the other 0.4 amps is going thru the
regulator).
Once or twice a month, I continue charging on "high" (about 1-2 amps
with no voltage limit) for an extra 1-2 hours to equalize.
These are Concorde AGMs, which don't seem to mind these lower charging
rates. I don't think I'd charge Hawkers at these low bulk currents, and
would do my finishing charge at a higher rate on Optimas.
> I have always charged my AGMs with 2.28V/cell (13.7 per battery
> and 356V on a 312V pack) while occasionally (once a month) increased
> voltage to 385V (14.8V per battery, 2.47V per cell) but only kept it
> there until the current dropped to about 1A, which usually happened
> within 1/2 hour from the state of float-charging at 356V.
> Note that I used this increased voltage with a fixed 2A limit
> to limit gassing as the recombiners should be able to keep up
> with the amount of gas produced at that current in my 110 Ah
> batteries.
That sounds reasonable. What kind of batteries?
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
Steve Condie wrote:
> I'm struggling with this, too. I have the same AGM's as Cor - UB121100's
> - and I'm just not sure which way to go. I've charged them at 13.7.
> I've charged them at 14.8 and then cut back to 13.7. I've got Z-regs
> which don't appear to do anything below 13.8, so if I don't go higher
> I won't get any equalization action from them.
True; but at 13.7v, you are essentially float charging them (no
equalization, very long charge times). The only thing the zener
regulators will do for you is take care of cases where the *string* has
13.7v x #batteries, but individual batteries are well above this
(because others in the string aren't fully charged yet).
> But I'm worried about what higher voltage will do to my sealed batteries.
> <sigh> I guess there's no easily
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