ev : Messages : 37623-37652 of 37678

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Today's Topics:

    1. Re: EV Plug-Connector (Dennis Miles)
    2. Another Itty-Bitty battery for Tesla "S" vehicle by
       Panasonic? (Mark Hanson)
    3. Re: OK you-all create an alternative to the car computer
       (Cor van de Water)
    4. Re: Motor Grinding Noise (Cor van de Water)
    5. Re: OT: mid-90s Nuts&Volts magazine issues will be available
       (Cor van de Water)
    6. Re: OT: Road noise (Cor van de Water)
    7. Re: TIME Article on EV's (Cor van de Water)
    8. Re: LiFePO4s - crossbars to use when connecting 100AH cells?
       (Eduardo Kaftanski)
    9. Re: EV Plug-Connector (storm connors)
   10. Re: EV Plug-Connector (Lock Hughes)
   11. Re: EV Plug-Connector and safety (rodhower@...)
   12. Re: Hopefull answers to "oil crash" (Zeke Yewdall)
   13. Re: Motor Grinding Noise (Stephen Jordan)
   14. Re: EV Plug-Connector and safety (Roger Stockton)
   15. Re: Charger plug/socket (storm connors)
   16. Re: Charger plug/socket, an' Stuff (storm connors)
   17. Re: LiFePO4s - crossbars to use when connecting 100AH cells? (joe)
   18. Re: Charger plug/socket, an' Stuff (joe)
   19. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place - Businessmodel
       discussion... (storm connors)
   20. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place - Businessmodel
       discussion... (Douglas A. Stansfield)
   21. Re: Motor Grinding Noise (dave cover)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:16:37 -0500
From: Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Plug-Connector
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <2b4886ce0911241216sef60f49i15d8b03f976278c7@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 12:46 PM, Douglas A. Stansfield <
Doug@...> wrote:

> Thanks Rush,
>
> I am trying to read the 180 page, Electric Coalition document.  Read about
> 20 pages so far and it is pretty good.  I like most of the comments but not
> all.  Oh well,
>
> Makes me wonder why FEDEX CEO is on board.  I tried over a year ago to get
> them to convert some of their trucks into "hybrids" and they didn't want to
> do any.  Seems strange...an about face.....glad to see it anyway.....
>
> Happy Thanksgiving everyone!!!!
>
>
> Sincerely;
>
> Douglas A. Stansfield
> President
> www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
> 973-875-6276 (office)
> 973-670-9208 (cell)
> 973-440-1619 (fax)
>
> WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
> And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On
> Behalf
> Of Rush
> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 11:37 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Plug-Connector
>
>
> Doug wrote -
>
> > Rush,
> >
> > I tried that link earlier today and the documents tab is empty.  I did
> the
> > best I could to bring people up to speed.
> >
> > Yazaki is building the J1772 and their plug is in UL testing now so I am
> > sure they used the standards in the document I first posted.  It is the
> > most
> > up to date "public" document that we can review, at least that I am aware
> > of.
> >
> > If another document becomes available I will try and remember to post it.
> >
>
> Doug,
>
> The specs on that website are the OLD J1772 Standard  and are NOT the specs
> of the new
> as-yet-unreleased-to-the-public Standard. But since, as you know, Yazaki is
> producing it, the standards have been released to 'certain' individuals.
> The
>
> standard is presently in the 'Balloting Process", as the SAE calls it, and
> when approved, it wil be released.
>
> It has been already been certified by the UL to ONLY 240v/30 amps, not the
> full 50 amps that it the spec 'will' be written for. This is from Coulomb
> tech.
>
> I've gotten some pretty good info at http://teva2.com/J1772.html.
>
> I think what is going to happen is that we will see an adapter box which
> will have electronics in it to supply the necessary handshake signals for
> charging. How much it will cost and what plug can be plugged into it is to
> be seen. Hopefully the plug will not be proprietary.
>
> What I find very interesting is that the Leaf will have a Level 3 input as
> per Paul Scott's article
>
> http://evsandenergy.blogspot.com/2009/11/nissans-leaf-falls-gently-to-earth-
> in.html.
>
> Rush
> Tucson AZ
> www.TEVA2.com
> =============================New Standards, New Adapters =============
>

We will all be building or buying a weather proof box with a 12 in. pigtail
to a J1772 plug and a socket for the venerable 14-50 on the other end.

On the front of the box will be a simple display, 2 or 3 LEDs and 2 or 3
switches so we can know what power is available and tell the J1772 what
power to supply us.

Then set our on-board charger and tell the J1772 to "GO" with the other
switch.

The adapter will let all the older (Older than 2011 perhaps ) EVs power
their chargers at the new outlets.

  I am just still hoping it won't take until 2035 before they spread
beyond Tucson ! (:-))

Regards,

     Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
        Phone (863) 289 - 0690
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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:28:16 -0500
From: Mark Hanson <marke.hanson@...>
Subject: [EVDL] Another Itty-Bitty battery for Tesla "S" vehicle by
	 Panasonic?
To: <ev@...>
Message-ID: <SNT114-W3330830C80AD5FA8274557849D0@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Hi,

I saw an article in this month's Current EVents on the new Tesla "S" car that I
ASSumed would be large format LiFePO4 batteries; but Nooo.  8000 itty bitty
batteries from Panasonic.  I guess after selling 700 Roadsters with 6800 small
batteries it's fairly reliable (although I don't know any folk's with >5k miles
on them).  I just can't imagine thousands of *anything* wired up being very
reliable long term.  Guess I've been in electronics for too long :-)

Have a low parts count day,

Mark

_________________________________________________________________
Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star.
http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727::\
T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009
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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:58:01 -0800
From: "Cor van de Water" <CWater@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OK you-all create an alternative to the car
	 computer
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <1E3D081C7B502B4A988F643E604CF963970730@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

So leave the whole system with all ECUs intact and simulate the ICE sensor data
to let the smarts of the new car *assume* that there still is an engine.
You could base the engine sensor data on actual motor data such as RPM
so that together with throttle input, it could even shift correctly....
(If necessary after reprogramming the gearshift ECU)
The shift blank can go to the motor controller.
(the Zilla already accepts this, or it may be the hairball
  and I also saw it on my DCP Raptor)

Kind of like using an XP simulator on a Macintosh to get a Windows app to
work...
Probably easier than rewriting the entire app to use the Mac directly and to
repeat it for each app...
Anybody into developing an "engine simulator box" for EV converters of new cars?
May be just a box with CAN interface and a few sensor inputs for RPM, temp and
such.
Select which virtual engine you want to simulate in SW...
Heck - they probably already have this in every car development lab.
But those likely cost more than a few new cars.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: CWater@...    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: cor_van_de_water@...
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf Of
Mark Farver
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 11:45 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OK you-all create an alternative to the car computer

On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 11:52 AM, Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...> wrote:
> ?I have been "Brought up to Speed" on what I call, "KISEVC" (that is:
> Keep It Simple EV Converters!) A philosophy similar to "KISS" I have
> tried to practice all my life. (Keep It Simple Stupid!)
>
> Here it is "From the Horses Mouth!" :
>
> ?#1. The ABS has its own "Box" so leave it alone.
Generally true... although sometimes it is the source of vehicle speed data and
tire pressure monitoring.  Be careful with it's wheel speed sensors during
disassembly and construction.  If you fault one sometimes you can't clear the
ABS code without the engine computer present and a dealer quality scan tool. 
I've seen vehicles where the ABS system, ECU throttle control and the Dynamic
Stability control module are independent system, but communicate heavily. 
Remove one and the others start throwing codes.

> ?#2. The Airbag System is just the impact sensor and a relay, and the
> Pyrotechnic device in ? ? ? ? ? the bag, so leave all that alone too.

The SRS computer is generally monitoring a few parameters from other vehicle
systems that factor into it's decision making process. Vehicle Speed and
ABS/collision avoidance operation being the most notable ones..  These days the
SRS system is much more sophisticated than an impact sensor and the inflation
system.  There are usually several sensors around the car to measure impact
force, deaccleration parameters, crumple zone effectiveness (measure the
deaccleration of the firewall verses the bumper), passenger seat position and
weight.
This allows the system to choose what bags and pretensioners to fire, and with
different forces and timings.  In general, stay away from yellow wire harnesses
(the SAE standard color) or anything that has yellow banding.  Follow the
correct procedure for safing the system
before working near or disconnecting any SRS system component.   The
SRS system has extensive internal checks, so if the SRS/Airbag light goes out
after startup it's probably good to go.

> ?#3. When removing the ICE any wires going to a ECU box you can cut
> right off, leave the box ? ? ?as it may control the speedometer (Don't
> cut the wire going to the speed sensor or the speedometer won't work!)
> reconnect ground wires to a point near the ECU Box.

Agree (though personally I tend to replace the ECU with one of my own
design.)  Watch out for vehicles where the headlights/signals are run
across/inside the engine harness.  (I curse you GM, and want to thank
Ford/Mazda)

> .#4. Cut the wire to the "Check Motor" light and use it for some other
> function.

Can't do this anymore on many cars.. the check engine light is generally
integrated into the dash, and is activated by the engine computer via messages
on the vehicle bus.  You'll end up with always on check engine light.  And since
they switched to LEDs and sealed instrument clusters its a lot harder to "take
the bulb out."  Same with anti-theft RFID keys too.  The reader is part of the
cluster, but the ECU does all the work.

My latest problem is a fully loaded 2010 Audi, which actually claims on the
sales spec sheet that it  has 3 sophisticated CAN circuits
(buses) for powertrain, passenger comfort and safety and infotainment.
  The computer shifted, dual clutch manual transmission commands the engine to
blank the throttle (inhibit the injectors) whenever its shifting (8ms shift
time!!).  The ABS, ECU and transmission communicate together to control
deacceleration, using a combination of braking and downshifting.  I've just
started, but I suspect it will prove interesting, and maybe impossible.

Mark Farver
REVOLT Custom Electric Vehicles
Austin, TX
Parts store now open: http://www.revoltevc.com/

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Message: 4
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:58:02 -0800
From: "Cor van de Water" <CWater@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Grinding Noise
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <1E3D081C7B502B4A988F643E604CF963970731@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

a bad bearing will last a while usually before failing and it will start making
a loud humming sound at the right speeds (ever had a car with wheel berings
going bad just before a vacation with a lot of driving? The bearings will hold
for thousands of miles luckily so they can be replaced afterwards if you can
live with their whine)

I wonder is you could have dry seals on bearings or axes - that will also cause
friction and noise that will go away with lubrication. but it typically is not
so much friction that you would notice it in poor coasting.

Commutator and brushes are usually behind a metal grille, unless your motor has
ducting, for example
for air cooling (and as some like to say, to distribute the brush dust through
your whole motor).

Since you have a clutchless setup, over-speeding is not your main concern. It is
lugging and overheating the motor. That can cause fast brush wear (from
overheating) so I suggest to check the brushes and commutator first.
Maybe you just need a mirror to look behind the motor at the brushes?
Shoot pictures if possible, upload them on a website and post a like here -
plenty people know how brushes and commutator *should* look like.

How much current are you routinely pushing through this motor in your driving?

Success,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: CWater@...    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: cor_van_de_water@...
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf Of
Stephen Jordan
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 5:19 PM
To: ev@...
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Grinding Noise

Thanks for the reply.

It's a 94 Saturn, manual transmission, clutch-less.

It took about 5-8 seconds to spin down when I put it in neutral going down a
hill.  I did this because I suspected increased friction as the car also has a
been coasting very poorly.

YES.  The noise was there when I put it in neutral and spun the motor.  And it
would quickly slow down when I released the throttle.

I can't see the commutator or brushes. Not sure what scoring is, but I looked
under the car last night and there was no damage, obvious wear and tear.

Thanks again!

dave cover-2 wrote:
>
> Need some more info. Car? Transmission? Has a clutch?
>
> How long did it take to spin down, 5 seconds or 30?
>
> Did the noise go away when you pressed in the clutch? Put it in
> neutral? Released the clutch in neutral?
>
> Can you see the commutator and brushes? Any scoring?
>
> With the car sitting, in neutral, does the motor make any noise when
> you spin it up?
>
> Dave Cover, with the same motor in my car.
>
> On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 7:47 PM, Stephen Jordan <sjjordan@...>
> wrote:
>>
>> On my way in to work today, there was a noise coming from the motor
>> that has me concerned. It changes tones (sometimes almost a grind,
>> sometimes more a high-pitched squeal) but was loud and continuous on
>> my ride home. ?The noise disappeared when i threw it into neutral at
>> 25mi/hr and I could hear the motor spin down to a halt (suggesting
>> significant friction). I've taken good care of the motor, never
>> letting it overspin.
>>
>> Any ideas what I can do? ?I'm in medical school and just started a
>> very intensive rotation today (working 12 hrs/day) so any quick-fixes
>> would be appreciated!
>>
>> The motor is a Advanced CD FB-4001A Double Shaft Series Wound DC from
>> EV of America and is about 15 months old.
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://n4.nabble.com/Motor-Grinding-Noise-tp786463p786463.html
>> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive
>> at Nabble.com.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>
>
>
> --
> http://www.evalbum.com/2149
>
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>

--
View this message in context:
http://n4.nabble.com/Motor-Grinding-Noise-tp786463p786732.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.

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------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:58:02 -0800
From: "Cor van de Water" <CWater@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT: mid-90s Nuts&Volts magazine issues will be
	 available
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <1E3D081C7B502B4A988F643E604CF963970732@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

There are plenty of hills where Shari (and EA) is in the Santa Cruz
mountains so gear shifting is not a luxury there.
Interestingly also my technical introduction to EVs was through the
articles of Shari in Home Power magazine when that was a free
downloadable monthly (increased the monthly phone bill downloading it
over dial-up from The Netherlands). I recently picked up a stack of the
paper magazines but have no longer time to go through them. I still have
a few CDs worth of downloads until the mag became subsciption-only.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: CWater@...    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: cor_van_de_water@...
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On
Behalf Of Chuck Hursch
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 4:02 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] OT: mid-90s Nuts&Volts magazine issues will be available

I am in the process of imaging my old Nuts&Volts magazines from a
subscription I had in the mid-90s.  Getting the interesting articles
onto the computer and tossing the rest.  There are lots of articles on
BASIC Stamps and other such ilk that I see mentioned on the EVDL, albeit
with a 90s flavor.  It's a good education for me to look at these old
dusty back issues, and relate it to what I see on the EVDL.  I even
re-read an old article by ElectroAutomotive's Shari Prange on gear
shifting in an EV, picturing a VoltsRabbit schussing up a road
somewhere.  At any rate, if anyone would be interested in these old N&V
issues from the 1995/1996 era, please contact me off-list.  It's going
to take me a few weeks/months to do 'em all, but if I know someone is
interested in having them, I won't toss them out as I go, and I will
contact the person once done.  At printed-matter postage rates, it may
not cost that much to ship them, and the mags themselves I'll let go for
free.

Chuck

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Message: 6
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:58:02 -0800
From: "Cor van de Water" <CWater@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT: Road noise
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <1E3D081C7B502B4A988F643E604CF963970733@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

An EV can be much quieter than with ICE, so it may
be just more noticeable than before.
I certainly did not like my gearbox noise in my EV
truck, but in other GM vehicles that noise and
vibration is camouflaged by the rattling and coughing ICE.

I wish you many smiling miles in your EV Vue!

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: CWater@...    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: cor_van_de_water@...
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On
Behalf Of gary
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 5:07 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT: Road noise

- rubber mount battery box (probably too hard to do after installation)
- use soundproofing foam (google search)

Gary Krysztopik
ZWheelz, LLC - www.ZWheelz.com
Alamo City Electric Auto Association - www.aceaa.org blog -
http://voices.mysanantonio.com/drive_electric_san_antonio/
San Antonio, TX

Barry Oppenheim wrote:
> I've been using by Saturn Vue EV since March and I'd like some input
> regarding road noise.  I seem to be getting a lot of road noise
emanating
> from the rear wheel wells.
>
> When I put the battery box in the cargo bay of the Vue I removed a
thin
> layer of padding between the body sheet metal and trim.  After putting
in
> the battery box I covered it with carpet and stuffed carpet padding
into the
> cavities over the wheel wells.  Although this reduces the noise it
does not
> eliminate it.  I almost think that my battery box is acting as a giant
> amplifier for the road noise from the rear.
>
> Thoughts,
>
> Barry Oppenheim
> New Hope, PA
> www.JustAnotherEVConversion.blogspot.com
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>

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Message: 7
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:58:02 -0800
From: "Cor van de Water" <CWater@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] TIME Article on EV's
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <1E3D081C7B502B4A988F643E604CF963970734@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dennis,
Nobody transports 0.7MW at 220V if they can avoid it.
Look in your neighborhood. Do you see hundreds of
strands of 2/0 cable hung on poles?
No, the power company uses a medium voltage line
to transport the power at a high voltage at low current.

Now before you say that is dangerous - for many decades
everyone had many boxes with upwards of 25,000 Volts in
their house and very few people had problems with that.
They just switched on the tube and watched.
The 53kWh in 5 mins at that voltage is only about 25 Amp,
you can easily and very safely fit a HV cable for that
in a hose much thinner than a regular gas nozzle hose.
(For an optimized design on cable diameter, you'd
probably use 3-phase which means only 1/3 current in each
cable.)
Even at your unrealistic low 220V level the current would
drop to about 1000A in a 3-phase system which current seems
to flow well though a 2/0 cable as used by most EV converters.
You'd probably need to cool it but that is nothing new,
I think it was the Magnecharger which also had water-cooling
in its charger paddle or receptacle to avoid overheating.
One bundle of 3x 2/0 cable is clumsy but not much more than
today's fuel nozzle and hose.

I would *love* to hear of a charging station with the
problems you mention where they have 16 stations charging
simultaneously. It means that we have finally transitioned.
Solving those problems is just ordinary design work and
century-old technology, nothing new needs to be invented to
do it today. The electricity grid can take it, so the
infrastructure is ready until there is a *significant*
percentage of EVs, then things may start shifting.
But that means *tens* of *millions* EVs on the road.

I agree that (slower) charging at home is preferred for
many reasons, but there may still be a market for fast
charging on the go, just like that there is almost no
airport without a paid wireless internet service.
You'd probably pay quite a bit more for the service than
charging at home but if you need to go, you will gladly
pay instead of waiting a few hours or staying overnight.

Even if the charging station is capable of charging 16 EVs
all at the same time, does not mean that they take that
power directly from the grid. Grid connection power is
costly and peak load even costlier, so it will pay for itself
to have a load leveling battery (or flywheel for that matter)
onsite so that the load on the grid is no more than the
agreed rate, probably about 1/3 of the peak.
In many industries this is known as "oversubscription" and it
is almost never noticeable when done correctly, unless you
happen to monitor your maximum bandwidth routinely or you are
the one being bumped from a flight.
Probably you still need a few (2 or 3) Megawatts but at the
same medium voltage that translates into a few tens of Amps
only at 3-phase so nothing serious that cannot be handled
in any average town or city.

If the local grid is unreliable (as in some areas of the world
including USA) then they may install a backup diesel generator
as you see in many industrial parks and at every hospital.
(I know, not a good thing for an EV economy, but you could
replace them with solar/wind/water/whatever where applicable)
Or they could try to harvest the difference between the low
night tariff and the day tariff for electricity by installing
a hugh (probably submarine battery size) backup pack.
Let's see how large it needs to be and if they can make
money with that operation:
Let us assume that the fast-charging "gas" station is doing well
so it is continuously busy and using 2 MW for 8 hours a day
and recharges that energy at night.
(In practice the load will vary during say a 15 hour day, so
for simplicity I put the half loads together in half the time)
16MWh would require a pack - I think I saw a submarine
battery spec at 8000Ah - of 1000 cells minimum at 2V.
Presuming they want the pack to last it will likely be closer
to 2000 cells. If they pay the same price of about $100 per
kWh for lead-acids that we do then the price of this pack is
$3,200,000.
If the difference in price between day and night is 5c per kWh
then they save 16MWh * 0.05/kWh = $800 per day. They will earn
the pack investment back in 4,000 days or about 11 years, but
this is assuming that it is only there to displace the day
tariff with night tariff.
The power company might make a deal with them to install this
pack because it may offload their grid enough to lower the
investments that the power company need to do.
Or the "gas" station may sell power at midday peak rates to
the electricity company when the local grid overloads and
earn much more than $800 a day.
And the "gas" station does not suffer from power outages.
Or I may have taken the wrong values and the picture is
entirely different. Or a grant or incentive is awarded to
provide de-centralized grid backup and the battery bank is
paid for with government money....
And the fast-charge station may be able to sell its CO2
certificates for good money.... but that has nothing to do
with the backup, only with the energy supplied to zero
emissions vehicles.

BTW - I did not hear an *enormous* advantage of the home
charging by 80% of the people... That is that 80% of the
smelly and dangerous gas stations will disappear from our
living areas and the remaining 20% will be able to convert
to deliver clean fuel. No more dangerous tanker truck
transports of a highly flammable fuel next to our homes,
no more fuel depots where an accident means a catastrophe.
And the list goes on...
Wow. Aren't you glad that the future is electric!

Any more 'problems' that an EE can easily solve that the
Time article tried to create?

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: CWater@...    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: cor_van_de_water@...
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On
Behalf Of Dennis Miles
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 8:31 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] TIME Article on EV's

On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 6:25 AM, Evan Tuer <evan.tuer@...> wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 8:30 PM, Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...>
> wrote:
>
> >  #4, Fast charging is a marketing myth, a five minute recharge would

> > require a direct line to Niagra Falls or your  regional nuclear
plant.
>
> It's never a good idea to exaggerate and say things can never be done
> if they are technically feasible, even if you think it's not
> worthwhile for some reason.
>
> For example: a 20kWh battery of 400V.  That's good for 75 miles of
> highway driving.
> Recharging 80% within 5 minutes would require:
>
> (20000 * .8) / 400 = 40A for 1 hour or 480A for 5 minutes, call that
200kW.
>
> Larger commercial premises have supplies which can fulfill that as
> standard.
>
> Connectors and cables which can handle this current and voltage for 5
> minutes are nothing special either.
>
> You'd need to use the best batteries currently available to accept a
> 10C charge rate, but it's far from impossible.
>
> ===========My math assumptions were a little different than
> yours========
>

I'm driving 200 miles ( Proven reasonable range by Tesla Drivers.) then
recharging in five minutes to ioo% full requires 53 KWh and if our
charger is 90 % efficient a five minute charge from a 220 AC V. source
requires 3200 Amperes. Or enough to supply a housing development of 32
to 50 homes...And the convenience store next to the Interstate where I
sometimes buy Gasoline has 16 pumps all capable of full flow at the same
time. An equavilent EV recharger would require the supply suitable of a
small town with 800 homes.
Also the plug in cable would be 32 strands of 2/0 cable or an
alternative.
I admit it just takes a medium size substation and not Niagra Falls full
output. But charging at home in six hours takes only 44 A. so it could
be handled with a 50 A. rated "Range Outlet" or charging in 12 hours
takes 22 A. so that works with a 30 A. "Dryer Outlet."
You are correct, it is not "Impossible," however I feel it is far from
likely.  (:-))

Regards,
     Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
        Phone (863) 289 - 0690
"We provide Mentoring, Small Group Instruction, and Hands-On training
for the EV Technicians: Building, Converting, Repairing, and Servicing
the Electric Vehicles of Today, and the Future."
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Message: 8
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:39:33 +0000
From: "Eduardo Kaftanski" <ekaftan@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4s - crossbars to use when connecting 100AH
	 cells?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID:

<611871609-1259098660-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-493741921-@bda203\
.bisx.produk.on.blackberry>

Content-Type: text/plain

I live in Chile, were around half of the worlds copper is mined and exported.

Down here exposed lines are replaced by aluminium with a copper center after
they steal them.

Aluminum is much cheaper and is not that easily reduced by thieves.

Eduardo Kaftanski
ekaftan@...
eduardo@...

-----Original Message-----
From: "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:05:39
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<ev@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4s - crossbars to use when connecting 100AH cells?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <leeahart@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4s - crossbars to use when connecting 100AH cells?

> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
>> Lee,
>>
>> Why is aluminum used almost exclusively on standard 200 A residential
>> electrical service cables and load center terminals if it has such
>> poor properties?
>
> Because it's cheap. Cheap trumps everything else. Copper is better in
> every other respect, except that it costs more.
>
>   Granted it is less than "ideal", but I wouldn't call
>> it a "poor choice".  As long as you use anti-oxidant and torque you
>> terminals, its a reasonable choice.
>
> Aluminum has a poor track record for fixed indoor wiring. In a vehicle
> with its vibration, temperature cycling, and high peak currents, I
> suspect you will find its reliability is even worse.
>
> Now if you have enough time money to spend on special tools and
> techniques, and do enough testing to be sure you solutions really work,
> maybe aluminum wiring can be made to work. But what are the chances that
> any of this will be done for a home builder or a small EV start-up
> manufacturer?

    Damn little! I feel "Why Bother?"Go Copper in yur EV,Buy, PAY up, you
will be happier down the road! IF you sell yur stuff, you can't "afford " to
do Aluminum?

       Bob. One-car-a-year production<g>?
> --
> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

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------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 17:58:48 -0500
From: storm connors <stormconnors@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Plug-Connector
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <f7ed9f6c0911241458s5bb969d4xbcddb957e72510a2@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I'm with you, Jon. But I am sure if there are lawyers and money to be
made the system will be made as expensive and complicated as possible
in the name of SAFETY.

We justify all sorts of crap in the name of safety. It is so hard to
put forth any rational argument when the reply is "in 1938 someone was
killed because ...." How many layers of "safety" devices on the modern
automobile? It's a wonder anyone survived the Model T!

It is surprising that we are still allowed to plug in a toaster.

On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 2:53 PM, Jon Glauser <jonglauser@...> wrote:
> Thats pretty cool to see them so supportive of and prepared for EVs.
>
> It seems to me as though all the power companies are looking at
> special equipment to charge EVs. But mot all of us have been using the
> same plugs our appliances use. I'm worried they will make it illegal
> to charge EVs with an extension cord somehow. I'm quite happy with my
> 25' cord and 20A outlet, and I'm not excited to have to buy a $1000
> meter/base/cable/connector.
>
>
> -Jon Glauser
> http://jonglauser.blogspot.com
> http://www.evalbum.com/555
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
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>
>

--
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1059
http://stormselectric.blogspot.com/
Storm

------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:02:32 -0800 (PST)
From: Lock Hughes <lockhughes@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Plug-Connector
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <890394.21903.qm@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Hear Hear!

--- On Tue, 11/24/09, storm connors <stormconnors@...> wrote:

> From: storm connors <stormconnors@...>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Plug-Connector
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
> Received: Tuesday, November 24, 2009, 5:58 PM
> I'm with you, Jon. But I am sure if
> there are lawyers and money to be
> made the system will be made as expensive and complicated
> as possible
> in the name of SAFETY.
>
> We justify all sorts of crap in the name of safety. It is
> so hard to
> put forth any rational argument when the reply is "in 1938
> someone was
> killed because ...." How many layers of "safety" devices on
> the modern
> automobile? It's a wonder anyone survived the Model T!
>
> It is surprising that we are still allowed to plug in a
> toaster.
>
> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 2:53 PM, Jon Glauser <jonglauser@...>
> wrote:
> > Thats pretty cool to see them so supportive of and
> prepared for EVs.
> >
> > It seems to me as though all the power companies are
> looking at
> > special equipment to charge EVs. But mot all of us
> have been using the
> > same plugs our appliances use. I'm worried they will
> make it illegal
> > to charge EVs with an extension cord somehow. I'm
> quite happy with my
> > 25' cord and 20A outlet, and I'm not excited to have
> to buy a $1000
> > meter/base/cable/connector.
> >
> >
> > -Jon Glauser

       __________________________________________________________________
Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr!

http://www.flickr.com/gift/

------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:54:30 -0800 (PST)
From: rodhower@...
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Plug-Connector and safety
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <29437.35796.qm@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Kind of ironic?
http://www.soyouwanna.com/site/toptens/accidents/accidentsfull.html
"
4. THE MOST COMMON CAUSE OF ACCIDENTAL DEATH

1. Motor vehicle crashes
Deaths per year: 43,200

The winner, by a ridiculously huge (and ever-increasing) margin is: death by car
wreck. Head on collision, sideswipe, single-vehicle smash-up, full car rollover,
pedestrian takedown, choking on own carsick vomit, spontaneous combustion-the
fun never stops for car owners. Try air travel instead; it's much safer. Do you
see it anywhere on this list?
"
I guess it would be safer to walk, but then again you may be run over by a car
:-)
And for EV content, how many deaths have you heard about regarding plugging in
an EV?  You many say there are very few EV's on the road, but there are hundreds
of thousands not on the road, golf carts, forklifts, utility vehicles etc.

--- On Tue, 11/24/09, Lock Hughes <lockhughes@...> wrote:

> From: Lock Hughes <lockhughes@...>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Plug-Connector
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
> Date: Tuesday, November 24, 2009, 6:02 PM
> Hear Hear!
>
> --- On Tue, 11/24/09, storm connors <stormconnors@...>
> wrote:
>
> > From: storm connors <stormconnors@...>
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Plug-Connector
> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
> > Received: Tuesday, November 24, 2009, 5:58 PM
> > I'm with you, Jon. But I am sure if
> > there are lawyers and money to be
> > made the system will be made as expensive and
> complicated
> > as possible
> > in the name of SAFETY.
> >
> > We justify all sorts of crap in the name of safety. It
> is
> > so hard to
> > put forth any rational argument when the reply is "in
> 1938
> > someone was
> > killed because ...." How many layers of "safety"
> devices on
> > the modern
> > automobile? It's a wonder anyone survived the Model
> T!
> >
> > It is surprising that we are still allowed to plug in
> a
> > toaster.
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 2:53 PM, Jon Glauser <jonglauser@...>
> > wrote:
> > > Thats pretty cool to see them so supportive of
> and
> > prepared for EVs.
> > >
> > > It seems to me as though all the power companies
> are
> > looking at
> > > special equipment to charge EVs. But mot all of
> us
> > have been using the
> > > same plugs our appliances use. I'm worried they
> will
> > make it illegal
> > > to charge EVs with an extension cord somehow.
> I'm
> > quite happy with my
> > > 25' cord and 20A outlet, and I'm not excited to
> have
> > to buy a $1000
> > > meter/base/cable/connector.
> > >
> > >
> > > -Jon Glauser
>
>
> ? ? ?
> __________________________________________________________________
> Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr!
>
> http://www.flickr.com/gift/
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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>

------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 17:33:43 -0700
From: Zeke Yewdall <zyewdall@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hopefull answers to "oil crash"
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <f446b2df0911241633g21e0f0bal907079a3faec54dc@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

This is getting quite off topic... but...

Unisolar has been around for about 10 years making commercially available
product.  About 30 to 40% the efficiency of crystalline silicon solar, and
over the last 10 years, they've been running just a tad higher cost -- not
alot higher, but a little.  They are really nice for building integrated
applications, if you have the room -- laminating them to metal roofing, etc,
and vandalism prone applications -- fairly unbreakable.  I saw an array that
had blown off a roof (due to an incompetent subcontractor -- toggle bolted
it to a currugated metal roof on a shed) and landed on some boulders, and
the panels were quite dented instead of being flat any more, but still
worked fine.

Z

On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 10:13 AM, Rick Beebe <rick@...> wrote:

>
>
> Stan's current technology is thin-film solar panels. They print them on
> what looks like a printing press and they can be applied directly to
> things like metal roofing. They're not quite as efficient as
> conventional solar panels, but they _should_ be a lot less expensive and
> you should be able to cover more of the roof with them. The new company
> is United Solar Ovonic, www.uni-solar.com
>
>
>
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Message: 13
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 16:37:30 -0800 (PST)
From: Stephen Jordan <sjjordan@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Grinding Noise
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <1259109450615-787284.post@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

I posted some pictures online including a recording of the motor noise.
(motor only revs to a few hundred rpm). High res images are available if you
click the links at the bottom.

http://web.me.com/sjjordan/Motor

As far as I could tell, everything looked good. Nothing looked burnt or
abnormal.  I'm not sure there's much else I can do without taking off the
motor.  What kind of lubrication could I try and where do I put it?

I usually put about 150A through the motor, but live in Alabama, which has
lots of hills. It's common for the motor to pull 200A routinely climbing a
hill.  My daily commute is 22mi and has a few hills.

Thanks again for all your help guys! This forum is fantastic.

a bad bearing will last a while usually before failing and it will start
making a loud humming sound at the right speeds (ever had a car with wheel
berings going bad just before a vacation with a lot of driving? The bearings
will hold for thousands of miles luckily so they can be replaced afterwards
if you can live with their whine)

I wonder is you could have dry seals on bearings or axes - that will also
cause friction and noise that will go away with lubrication. but it
typically is not so much friction that you would notice it in poor coasting.

Commutator and brushes are usually behind a metal grille, unless your motor
has ducting, for example
for air cooling (and as some like to say, to distribute the brush dust
through your whole motor).

Since you have a clutchless setup, over-speeding is not your main concern.
It is lugging and overheating the motor. That can cause fast brush wear
(from overheating) so I suggest to check the brushes and commutator first.
Maybe you just need a mirror to look behind the motor at the brushes?
Shoot pictures if possible, upload them on a website and post a like here -
plenty people know how brushes and commutator *should* look like.

How much current are you routinely pushing through this motor in your
driving?

Success,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: CWater@...    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: cor_van_de_water@...
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
Of Stephen Jordan
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 5:19 PM
To: ev@...
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Grinding Noise

Thanks for the reply.

It's a 94 Saturn, manual transmission, clutch-less.

It took about 5-8 seconds to spin down when I put it in neutral going down a
hill.  I did this because I suspected increased friction as the car also has
a been coasting very poorly.

YES.  The noise was there when I put it in neutral and spun the motor.  And
it would quickly slow down when I released the throttle.

I can't see the commutator or brushes. Not sure what scoring is, but I
looked under the car last night and there was no damage, obvious wear and
tear.

Thanks again!

--
View this message in context:
http://n4.nabble.com/Motor-Grinding-Noise-tp786463p787284.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.

------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 16:49:15 -0800
From: Roger Stockton <rstockton@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Plug-Connector and safety
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <706F54AA6AA33D48AD2CDA168A1E35CF2A3D444496@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

rodhower@... wrote:

> And for EV content, how many deaths
> have you heard about regarding plugging in an EV?  You many
> say there are very few EV's on the road, but there are
> hundreds of thousands not on the road, golf carts, forklifts,
> utility vehicles etc.

Perhaps not the best comparison for the point you wish to make...

A large fraction of these use a low-voltage DC connection that is isolated from
the AC grid/earth between an off-board charger and the vehicle to charge.  This
connection is provided by an application-specific connector system that often
includes features that prevent contact arcing on connection/disconnection.  The
remainder use onboard chargers that (in North America) plug into 120VAC to
charge.

As I understand it, nobody is preventing on-road EVs from plugging into 120VAC
to charge using whatever connector system they choose; the issue has to do with
the restrictions Article 625 places on the connector systems that may be used
(in the US) for connecting 240VAC to an EV (level 2 charging).

I think a better example for the point you want to make is the (presumably) few
deaths/injuries that are associated with the large numbers of North American
RVers plugging/unplugging their rigs from 120VAC and 240VAC outdoors in the same
weather and using the same connectors as hobbiest EVers do.

Cheers,

Roger.

------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:46:29 -0500
From: storm connors <stormconnors@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <f7ed9f6c0911241846w5c126b10mdb3e75cbb651e3cf@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

What is wrong with using the 240v plug that looks like a standard 120v
with a blade turned sideways? If you drive away it pulls out.

On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 2:37 PM, John G. Lussmyer
<Cougar@...> wrote:
> EVDL Administrator wrote:
>> Yes, there are other ways to prevent that problem, but this one struck me as
>> a pretty cool one. ?When you key on the EV's power, it automagically ejects
>> the charging plug.
>>
> I just use the Zilla plug-in feature to detect the Gas Cap door is open.
> Car won't move while it's plugged in - even if no power is provided.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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>
>

--
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1059
http://stormselectric.blogspot.com/
Storm

------------------------------

Message: 16
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:56:39 -0500
From: storm connors <stormconnors@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket, an' Stuff
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <f7ed9f6c0911241856m60b9cbb6vbbd69fd9f3009982@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I tried the replace the fuel filler with a connector thing and while
it is cute, it sure doesn't seem as practical as a connection at the
front of the vehicle. Fuel fillers are always on the wrong side and
with the charger under the hood wiring to the fuel filler is awkward
and adds voltage drop. So besides being a hassle to use and install,
what are the other advantages?

On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 1:22 PM, joe <joe@...> wrote:
> I did that on the Mustang, Bob - used a 3" x 1-1/2" electrical reducing
> washer, and mounted the flanged inlet (that's what the industry calls them
> buggers you were thinking about!) on it, ?cut off ?the filler pipe behind
> the flange and mounted the whole thing back where it was before, where the
> gas cap twists on.
>
> When I get my website updated (sometime this winter hopefully!), I'll post
> pictures of everything that I did on the Mustang. In the meantime, if anyone
> wants me to email them pictures offlist, I'll be glad to do that.
>
> Joseph H. Strubhar
>
> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>
> E-mail: joe@...
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 7:35 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket, an' Stuff
>
>
>> ?Hi EVerybody;
>>
>> ? While digging through my EV junque stuff, I found a GREAT old socket. I
>> put it to use on Mike O's S-10, my signiture plug-in-gas-filler setup. Was
>> thinking" Wonder IF they STILL make these things? It 's a round recessed
>> plug, in a sorta cup, with two ears for a bolt on each side to hold it in.
>> Behind it has setscrews to attach yur hot wires and ground. I THINK it
>> came
>> from a parted out EFP rig, about 35 YEARS ago. All I needed was a flat
>> plate
>> mounted to the filler hole and the plug was recessed, already! No having
>> to
>> hunt down JUST the right size small mixer bowl, or feeding S.S. bowl to
>> mount a male plug on.
>>
>> ? Just thought I'd bring it up, since we're into a plug diss-cussion theme
>> here?
>>
>> ? ? Other Shit; Mike is just gunna get his tags as a Stock S-10, gas
>> powered, so we can DRIVE with a free consience. Deal with the "Electric
>> Issue" when he gets his notice that he hasta get "Smogged" It WILL be a
>> grace period of several months? Until He'll hafta "Fess up" that the S-10
>> is
>> ELECTYRIC. soo He'll have some test and tune, or tul the truk gets USED to
>> him, or is it the OTHER way around?We want to see it go down the road, or
>> Woo Hoo! ANOTHER EV hits the Road!Or I've met my Non G.M . threatening
>> one-a-year production rate!
>>
>> ? ?Seeya
>>
>> ? ? Bob, ? MORE below
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Dennis Miles" <dmiles33810@...>
>> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
>> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 9:49 AM
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket
>>
>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 7:27 AM, Andrew Wood <ajwood@...> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Douglas, Dennis
>>>>
>>>> I was meaning to go on the EV body itself. ?That one on Amazon is the
>>>> sort of thing, but is there a better range of them somewhere? ?WHat
>>>> about inductive ones?
>>>>
>>>> Andrew
>>
>> ? ?Andrew? Aren't you in the UK? I'll guess that UK has a WHOLE different
>> Code setup than here in the Colonies? You just DON'T do 120 volts? ALL
>> home
>> stuff in UK and PROBABLY Europe is nice, handy 240 volts fuzed for 13
>> amps.
>> THIS, I think would be simplifying the whole wiring question? You get used
>> to lottsa 240 volts stuff around the house? Radio, Electric Blanket,
>> toothbrush, cell fone charger, etc?
>>
>> ? ? Bob
>>>> =======================EV side is a different Puppy..================
>>>>
>>>
>>> Because the "Electrical Code" treats the EV's Charger as an appliance.
>>>
>>> I would send you shopping at the RV or Yacht supply stores, they have
>>> reliable equipment proven in years of use.
>>>
>>> The Right choice is dependent upon the input of your Charger; ?110, or
>>> 115,
>>> or 120 or 208, 220, or 240 ACV. And at what current; 10 to 50 AC Amps?
>>> These will determine how big the conductors have to be and how many wires
>>> are in the cable sheath. Are you using different cables for 120v. at 12A.
>>> for Opportunity Charging versus 208V. at 24A for at home? ?Or just an
>>> "Adapter" with plug and jack attached to a foot long piece of cable, for
>>> 120v. and don't use it for 208V. at home. Also how long of a cable will
>>> you
>>> need?
>>>
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?<<WHat about inductive ones?>> you
>>> asked.
>>>
>>> The Inductive couplings require Expensive Electronic "Adapters" at the
>>> park
>>> and charge location and in the EV because it is very inefficient at 50 or
>>> 60
>>> Hertz. Also It isn't portable in its present form.
>>
>> ? Or AFFORDABLE. You just KNOW that, likr batteries for portable tool NO
>> two will be created equil!
>>
>>> Have you asked the members at the local EV club? How about at a nearby RV
>>> Supply for their recommendations? ?The $ 300,000 Bus Conversion RV owners
>>> are likely to have an elegant solution.
>>
>> ? I took the chord by the plug and just set "MY" standard as a 14-50 NEMA
>> 240 volt plug, installed on MY charge station, on the house wall, by the E
>> service drop.AND a 120 volt wall plug like ALL over my house and garage.
>> The
>> one we have for about 100 years! That they aren't convenient to parking
>> areas is an ongoing issue? ?HowEVer I WOULD like to see the RV 240 volt
>> plug
>> adapted as THE EV standard, however, as Jack Gretta used to say;"
>> Standard??
>> WHICH one would ya like?" I BUILT it ,IF they will come? A variation of
>> "IF
>> you Build it, they will Come" A Tesla? In Corrupticut? It's possable?A Rav
>> or Mini? Cars with SERIOUS ranges.
>>
>>> There are many solutions you will have to decide which is best for you.
>>>
>>> I want something simple and secure, so I don't have to sit there on a
>>> folding chair with a shotgun in my lap to keep away the "Copper Thieves."
>>> My
>>> solution is; I don't put a connector on the EV, I run the wire thru a
>>> grommet lined hole under the fuel door, and clamp it on inside.
>>>
>>> Then when I unplug, ?I just push the wire inside the trunk where it falls
>>> into a plastic bucket (Mostly) and lock the fuel door closed. The next
>>> time
>>> I want to use it I unlock and open the fuel door and pull as much cord as
>>> I
>>> need out. If it seems short I open the trunk and untangle it... ?(This
>>> has
>>> been my solution on my Motor Home since 1998 also.)
>>>
>>> This way some "Low Life " doesn't unplug both ends and take it away a
>>> $275
>>> cord set, to sell!
>>
>> ?This sorta low life MIGHT be scared off by a few" Danger million OHMs"
>> signs. Volts Dolts Ohms Smolms All prety much the same to THEM<G> They
>> drop
>> the hood and run off, especially in Detoilet, Electricity and BIG dogs can
>> work their magic!
>>
>> ? I'm afraid THIS will be an EV issue in our major shitties, er, Citys,
>> The
>> ones that are on the news with nightly drive-by-shootings; Charging in the
>> wondeful urban environment all the hidiously expensive prices of heavy
>> enough 'stench cords, to get a meaningful amount of juice? Maybe for the
>> larcenous parking fees in , say, NYC, you MIGHT get some juice, too?
>>
>>> Good Luck, hope this was Interesting.
>>
>> ? Especially the coming responses?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> ? ?Dennis Miles, ? ?(Director / CEO)
>>> Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
>>> Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
>>> ? ? ? Phone (863) 289 - 0690
>>>
>>> "We provide Mentoring, Small Group Instruction, and Hands-On training
>>> for the EV Technicians: Building, Converting, Repairing, and Servicing
>>> the Electric Vehicles of Today, and the Future."
>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>> URL:
>>>
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20091123/80201d05/attachmen\
t.html
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>>> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>>> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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>
>

--
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1059
http://stormselectric.blogspot.com/
Storm

------------------------------

Message: 17
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 19:17:06 -0800
From: "joe" <joe@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4s - crossbars to use when connecting 100AH
	 cells?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <DE2AA2FBDDF7462185E1593FE72844FC@Sales>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original

Roger, Lee is correct; as an electrical contractor, I won't use aluminum
wire unless I have to for some reason. And I don't use aluminum bussed
loadcenters for the same reason.

Please do not use aluminum bars or connectors in EV's - you will only cause
yourself problems if you do so.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: joe@...

----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Heuckeroth" <rheuckeroth@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 7:34 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4s - crossbars to use when connecting 100AH cells?

> Lee,
>
> Why is aluminum used almost exclusively on standard 200 A residential
> electrical service cables and load center terminals if it has such
> poor properties?  Granted it is less than "ideal", but I wouldn't call
> it a "poor choice".  As long as you use anti-oxidant and torque you
> terminals, its a reasonable choice.  I would also add one more
> recommendation to your suggestions below.  Make sure you use a
> stainless steel wire brush on the contact surface to expose virgin
> material before assembly.  Especially if your aluminum material has
> been laying around oxidizing, or is anodized.
>
>
> On Nov 24, 2009, at 9:33 AM, Lee Hart wrote:
>
>> Rob Trahms wrote:
>>> I was talking with a fellow EV'er over the weekend about the right
>>> crossbar
>>> connectors to use with 100ah prismatics like HiPower or Sky
>>> Energy.  He
>>> showed me some fairly thin looking straps (maybe 1/16" thick x1"x4"
>>> machined
>>> aluminum segments?) that he received with his cells.  We both
>>> agreed these
>>> seemed possibly inadequate for the job of a sustained 100-300A
>>> current draw.
>>> He then showed me some 3/8"x1"x4" machined aluminum bars he was
>>> planning to
>>> use instead.  Those will definitely work, and might qualify as
>>> 'overkill'.
>>
>> Aluminum strikes me as a poor choice for an electrical connector.
>> There
>> are plenty of examples of what can go wrong. If one really must use
>> aluminum, special techniques are needed to improve reliability.
>>
>> Aluminum has three bad features. 1) It forms a hard insulating oxide
>> coating on contact with air. 2) It cold flows under pressure. 3) It
>> has
>> a large expansion coefficient with temperature.
>>
>> Suppose you simply clamp two pieces of aluminum together with a bolt.
>> The oxide layer on the parts means only a tiny portion of the apparent
>> surface area is actually making contact. When you run high current, it
>> heats up. The aluminum expands. The bolt won't "give", so the aluminum
>> extrudes out the sides to relieve the pressure.
>>
>> When the connection cools, the aluminum shrinks. Now the connection is
>> looser. Air gets in, and further oxidizes the surfaces, worsening the
>> connection. On the next high current cycle, it gets hotter, flows some
>> more, shrinks again, oxidizes some more, etc. This process continues
>> until the connection fails.
>>
>> Since aluminum has a low melting point and burns, the failure can be
>> spectacular. Arcs, fires, flowing molten metal, etc.
>>
>> Here are some techniques used to make good connections in aluminum:
>>
>>  - Weld the aluminum parts together.
>>  - Plate the aluminum with some other metal that won't corrode.
>>  - Clamp it with extreme pressure, to seriously deform the aluminum
>>    and "cold weld" the parts together.
>>  - Or, clamp it with something that applies spring pressure to
>> maintain
>>    contact pressure despite expansion/contraction and cold flow.
>>  - Apply some kind of grease to exclude air and water from the
>>    connection.
>> --
>> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
>> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
>> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
>> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

------------------------------

Message: 18
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 19:25:51 -0800
From: "joe" <joe@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket, an' Stuff
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <CB55F9D8D9D14F99A03E00B0EA7B7837@Sales>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original

On the Mustang, the filler is in the rear, underneath the trunk lid lock. It
would pull out easily when driven off, but could damage the flanged inlet.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: joe@...

----- Original Message -----
From: "storm connors" <stormconnors@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 6:56 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket, an' Stuff

I tried the replace the fuel filler with a connector thing and while
it is cute, it sure doesn't seem as practical as a connection at the
front of the vehicle. Fuel fillers are always on the wrong side and
with the charger under the hood wiring to the fuel filler is awkward
and adds voltage drop. So besides being a hassle to use and install,
what are the other advantages?

On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 1:22 PM, joe <joe@...> wrote:
> I did that on the Mustang, Bob - used a 3" x 1-1/2" electrical reducing
> washer, and mounted the flanged inlet (that's what the industry calls them
> buggers you were thinking about!) on it, cut off the filler pipe behind
> the flange and mounted the whole thing back where it was before, where the
> gas cap twists on.
>
> When I get my website updated (sometime this winter hopefully!), I'll post
> pictures of everything that I did on the Mustang. In the meantime, if
> anyone
> wants me to email them pictures offlist, I'll be glad to do that.
>
> Joseph H. Strubhar
>
> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>
> E-mail: joe@...
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 7:35 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket, an' Stuff
>
>
>> Hi EVerybody;
>>
>> While digging through my EV junque stuff, I found a GREAT old socket. I
>> put it to use on Mike O's S-10, my signiture plug-in-gas-filler setup.
>> Was
>> thinking" Wonder IF they STILL make these things? It 's a round recessed
>> plug, in a sorta cup, with two ears for a bolt on each side to hold it
>> in.
>> Behind it has setscrews to attach yur hot wires and ground. I THINK it
>> came
>> from a parted out EFP rig, about 35 YEARS ago. All I needed was a flat
>> plate
>> mounted to the filler hole and the plug was recessed, already! No having
>> to
>> hunt down JUST the right size small mixer bowl, or feeding S.S. bowl to
>> mount a male plug on.
>>
>> Just thought I'd bring it up, since we're into a plug diss-cussion theme
>> here?
>>
>> Other Shit; Mike is just gunna get his tags as a Stock S-10, gas
>> powered, so we can DRIVE with a free consience. Deal with the "Electric
>> Issue" when he gets his notice that he hasta get "Smogged" It WILL be a
>> grace period of several months? Until He'll hafta "Fess up" that the S-10
>> is
>> ELECTYRIC. soo He'll have some test and tune, or tul the truk gets USED
>> to
>> him, or is it the OTHER way around?We want to see it go down the road, or
>> Woo Hoo! ANOTHER EV hits the Road!Or I've met my Non G.M . threatening
>> one-a-year production rate!
>>
>> Seeya
>>
>> Bob, MORE below
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Dennis Miles" <dmiles33810@...>
>> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
>> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 9:49 AM
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket
>>
>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 7:27 AM, Andrew Wood <ajwood@...> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Douglas, Dennis
>>>>
>>>> I was meaning to go on the EV body itself. That one on Amazon is the
>>>> sort of thing, but is there a better range of them somewhere? WHat
>>>> about inductive ones?
>>>>
>>>> Andrew
>>
>> Andrew? Aren't you in the UK? I'll guess that UK has a WHOLE different
>> Code setup than here in the Colonies? You just DON'T do 120 volts? ALL
>> home
>> stuff in UK and PROBABLY Europe is nice, handy 240 volts fuzed for 13
>> amps.
>> THIS, I think would be simplifying the whole wiring question? You get
>> used
>> to lottsa 240 volts stuff around the house? Radio, Electric Blanket,
>> toothbrush, cell fone charger, etc?
>>
>> Bob
>>>> =======================EV side is a different Puppy..================
>>>>
>>>
>>> Because the "Electrical Code" treats the EV's Charger as an appliance.
>>>
>>> I would send you shopping at the RV or Yacht supply stores, they have
>>> reliable equipment proven in years of use.
>>>
>>> The Right choice is dependent upon the input of your Charger; 110, or
>>> 115,
>>> or 120 or 208, 220, or 240 ACV. And at what current; 10 to 50 AC Amps?
>>> These will determine how big the conductors have to be and how many
>>> wires
>>> are in the cable sheath. Are you using different cables for 120v. at
>>> 12A.
>>> for Opportunity Charging versus 208V. at 24A for at home? Or just an
>>> "Adapter" with plug and jack attached to a foot long piece of cable, for
>>> 120v. and don't use it for 208V. at home. Also how long of a cable will
>>> you
>>> need?
>>>
>>> <<WHat about inductive ones?>> you
>>> asked.
>>>
>>> The Inductive couplings require Expensive Electronic "Adapters" at the
>>> park
>>> and charge location and in the EV because it is very inefficient at 50
>>> or
>>> 60
>>> Hertz. Also It isn't portable in its present form.
>>
>> Or AFFORDABLE. You just KNOW that, likr batteries for portable tool NO
>> two will be created equil!
>>
>>> Have you asked the members at the local EV club? How about at a nearby
>>> RV
>>> Supply for their recommendations? The $ 300,000 Bus Conversion RV owners
>>> are likely to have an elegant solution.
>>
>> I took the chord by the plug and just set "MY" standard as a 14-50 NEMA
>> 240 volt plug, installed on MY charge station, on the house wall, by the
>> E
>> service drop.AND a 120 volt wall plug like ALL over my house and garage.
>> The
>> one we have for about 100 years! That they aren't convenient to parking
>> areas is an ongoing issue? HowEVer I WOULD like to see the RV 240 volt
>> plug
>> adapted as THE EV standard, however, as Jack Gretta used to say;"
>> Standard??
>> WHICH one would ya like?" I BUILT it ,IF they will come? A variation of
>> "IF
>> you Build it, they will Come" A Tesla? In Corrupticut? It's possable?A
>> Rav
>> or Mini? Cars with SERIOUS ranges.
>>
>>> There are many solutions you will have to decide which is best for you.
>>>
>>> I want something simple and secure, so I don't have to sit there on a
>>> folding chair with a shotgun in my lap to keep away the "Copper
>>> Thieves."
>>> My
>>> solution is; I don't put a connector on the EV, I run the wire thru a
>>> grommet lined hole under the fuel door, and clamp it on inside.
>>>
>>> Then when I unplug, I just push the wire inside the trunk where it falls
>>> into a plastic bucket (Mostly) and lock the fuel door closed. The next
>>> time
>>> I want to use it I unlock and open the fuel door and pull as much cord
>>> as
>>> I
>>> need out. If it seems short I open the trunk and untangle it... (This
>>> has
>>> been my solution on my Motor Home since 1998 also.)
>>>
>>> This way some "Low Life " doesn't unplug both ends and take it away a
>>> $275
>>> cord set, to sell!
>>
>> This sorta low life MIGHT be scared off by a few" Danger million OHMs"
>> signs. Volts Dolts Ohms Smolms All prety much the same to THEM<G> They
>> drop
>> the hood and run off, especially in Detoilet, Electricity and BIG dogs
>> can
>> work their magic!
>>
>> I'm afraid THIS will be an EV issue in our major shitties, er, Citys,
>> The
>> ones that are on the news with nightly drive-by-shootings; Charging in
>> the
>> wondeful urban environment all the hidiously expensive prices of heavy
>> enough 'stench cords, to get a meaningful amount of juice? Maybe for the
>> larcenous parking fees in , say, NYC, you MIGHT get some juice, too?
>>
>>> Good Luck, hope this was Interesting.
>>
>> Especially the coming responses?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Dennis Miles, (Director / CEO)
>>> Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
>>> Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
>>> Phone (863) 289 - 0690
>>>
>>> "We provide Mentoring, Small Group Instruction, and Hands-On training
>>> for the EV Technicians: Building, Converting, Repairing, and Servicing
>>> the Electric Vehicles of Today, and the Future."
>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>> URL:
>>>
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20091123/80201d05/attachmen\
t.html
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>>> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>>> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>

--
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1059
http://stormselectric.blogspot.com/
Storm

_______________________________________________
General support: http://evdl.org/help/
Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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------------------------------

Message: 19
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 22:31:22 -0500
From: storm connors <stormconnors@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
	 Businessmodel discussion...
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <f7ed9f6c0911241931u34b38d6fybe871c04a7234a36@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I could come up with numbers to prove to my wife that the electric car
saves money. Of course it would be erroneous if I compared apples to
apples. It is easy to find an ICE vehicle for $2000.

If you are honest about it, there is no way to save money with a
conversion. We have to buy conversion parts at retail. If you are
converting to save money, you will be disappointed.

If you want to save money, buy a Kia. If you want to save the planet,
convert. http://www.evalbum.com/1059

On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 2:50 PM, Rodney Cook <r.cook@...> wrote:
> In Seattle, each Puget Sound Energy customer has the option of specifying
> that their power comes from wind turbines. My EV is charged with wind power
> and my investment to make that happen is $12 per month.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
> Of Roger Heuckeroth
> Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 9:25 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
> Businessmodel discussion...
>
>
> On Nov 22, 2009, at 9:57 AM, Jeff Shanab wrote:
>
>> ?I did my conversion and the adding of solar-grid tie to my house at
>> the same time.
>> I make more on the solar than I use in the EV. So we can eliminate the
>> electricity from the cost/mile.
>> Obviously the goal was not to save money right now. the solar costs.
>> My
>> goal was a zero balance sheet on transportation and daily power. I am
>> not there yet.
>
> I was going to post a similar response to this thread. ?I hope to also
> be there one day where I produce all my power needs for my home,
> business and transportation. ?I congratulate you, Jeff, on making
> progress towards that goal. ?Your further along to that goal than I am.
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
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http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1059
http://stormselectric.blogspot.com/
Storm

------------------------------

Message: 20
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 22:49:02 -0500
From: "Douglas A. Stansfield" <Doug@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
	 Businessmodel discussion...
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <022701ca6d82$3abcfac0$b036f040$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Storm,

You can always go the used route....There are always EV conversions on EBay
almost every week.  Might not find them for $2000 but remember, nobody (for
the most part) buys a car because of cost (unless you are in college).  If
that was the case then everybody would buy Kia's but they don't.  Why
because the car is something that people tend to love.  They want something
that they "feel" good in.  I imagine only accountants actually calculate the
"total cost of ownership" numbers before buying a car.  I know one guy that
on impulse bought a Hummer on vacation!!! Why?  He liked it and wanted
it.....  He sold it when gas went to $4.50/gallon and he took a loss on it.
Doesn't everybody take a loss on the cars they buy?  I have not made money
on any cars that I have ever owned.  They all depreciate and then you either
sell them, donate them, or junk them.  At least I don't borrow money to buy
cars.  Then you are paying interest on something that is losing value....Not
good....

Sincerely;

Douglas A. Stansfield
President
www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
973-875-6276 (office)
973-670-9208 (cell)
973-440-1619 (fax)

WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS

-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
Of storm connors
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 10:31 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
Businessmodel discussion...

I could come up with numbers to prove to my wife that the electric car
saves money. Of course it would be erroneous if I compared apples to
apples. It is easy to find an ICE vehicle for $2000.

If you are honest about it, there is no way to save money with a
conversion. We have to buy conversion parts at retail. If you are
converting to save money, you will be disappointed.

If you want to save money, buy a Kia. If you want to save the planet,
convert. http://www.evalbum.com/1059

On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 2:50 PM, Rodney Cook <r.cook@...> wrote:
> In Seattle, each Puget Sound Energy customer has the option of specifying
> that their power comes from wind turbines. My EV is charged with wind
power
> and my investment to make that happen is $12 per month.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On
Behalf
> Of Roger Heuckeroth
> Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 9:25 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
> Businessmodel discussion...
>
>
> On Nov 22, 2009, at 9:57 AM, Jeff Shanab wrote:
>
>> ?I did my conversion and the adding of solar-grid tie to my house at
>> the same time.
>> I make more on the solar than I use in the EV. So we can eliminate the
>> electricity from the cost/mile.
>> Obviously the goal was not to save money right now. the solar costs.
>> My
>> goal was a zero balance sheet on transportation and daily power. I am
>> not there yet.
>
> I was going to post a similar response to this thread. ?I hope to also
> be there one day where I produce all my power needs for my home,
> business and transportation. ?I congratulate you, Jeff, on making
> progress towards that goal. ?Your further along to that goal than I am.
>
> _______________________________________________
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--
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1059
http://stormselectric.blogspot.com/
Storm

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------------------------------

Message: 21
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 22:51:09 -0500
From: dave cover <davecover@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Grinding Noise
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <ae3bc37c0911241951h3e3e09d6y2013fe925861eec5@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Well, the comm looks good, nice brown patina, no big scores. But the
sound your motor makes is scary. You spin it up and it slows down that
quick? Wow.

Lot's of guesswork from here, but here goes...

The accessory end of your motor shaft is easy to get to, can you grab
it and see if there's some play? Try and move it in an up and down
direction. A shot bearing could have noticeable movement. Can you spin
the motor by hand and tell which end is making the noise? It could be
hard to get started but it should turn. If you can't turn it by hand
with the car in neutral, somethings binding. And that would give you a
good indication of a bearing problem. Either way you probably have to
drop the motor. Even if it the motor was Ok and it's your transaxle,
you still have to pull it. But before you take it apart, doublecheck
the rest of the drivetrain to make sure there's no other obvious
problem.

How about this, with the car in neutral (motor not spinning) can you
roll the car back and forth fairly easily? Does it make any noise if
you move it a few feet across the garage floor?

Is there any way the transaxle to motor adapter (whatever replaced
your clutch and flywheel) could have shifted and is rubbing on some
housing? If they used a taperlock adapter it might not have been
tightened down all the way and it's moved. It might be just the keyway
spinning your transmission. I'm just grasping at straws here, not
really sure.

What did you replace the clutch with? Or did you buy it that way and
have never been in there? Sounds like a great opportunity to tinker.

If you do find a bad bearing, it's a real easy job to replace them.
Mark you end bells in relation to the housing so it all goes back
together the same way. When I replaced mine I went for a slightly
better bearing with a higher RPM rating. They were very reasonably
priced, why not? I think I got them from McMaster Carr.

Good luck

On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 7:37 PM, Stephen Jordan <sjjordan@...> wrote:
>
> I posted some pictures online including a recording of the motor noise.
> (motor only revs to a few hundred rpm). High res images are available if you
> click the links at the bottom.
>
> http://web.me.com/sjjordan/Motor
>
> As far as I could tell, everything looked good. Nothing looked burnt or
> abnormal. ?I'm not sure there's much else I can do without taking off the
> motor. ?What kind of lubrication could I try and where do I put it?
>
> I usually put about 150A through the motor, but live in Alabama, which has
> lots of hills. It's common for the motor to pull 200A routinely climbing a
> hill. ?My daily commute is 22mi and has a few hills.
>
> Thanks again for all your help guys! This forum is fantastic.
>
>
> a bad bearing will last a while usually before failing and it will start
> making a loud humming sound at the right speeds (ever had a car with wheel
> berings going bad just before a vacation with a lot of driving? The bearings
> will hold for thousands of miles luckily so they can be replaced afterwards
> if you can live with their whine)
>
> I wonder is you could have dry seals on bearings or axes - that will also
> cause friction and noise that will go away with lubrication. but it
> typically is not so much friction that you would notice it in poor coasting.
>
> Commutator and brushes are usually behind a metal grille, unless your motor
> has ducting, for example
> for air cooling (and as some like to say, to distribute the brush dust
> through your whole motor).
>
> Since you have a clutchless setup, over-speeding is not your main concern.
> It is lugging and overheating the motor. That can cause fast brush wear
> (from overheating) so I suggest to check the brushes and commutator first.
> Maybe you just need a mirror to look behind the motor at the brushes?
> Shoot pictures if possible, upload them on a website and post a like here -
> plenty people know how brushes and commutator *should* look like.
>
> How much current are you routinely pushing through this motor in your
> driving?
>
> Success,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: CWater@... ? ?Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water ? ? IM: cor_van_de_water@...
> Tel: +1 408 383 7626 ? ? ? ?VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
> Of Stephen Jordan
> Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 5:19 PM
> To: ev@...
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Grinding Noise
>
>
> Thanks for the reply.
>
> It's a 94 Saturn, manual transmission, clutch-less.
>
> It took about 5-8 seconds to spin down when I put it in neutral going down a
> hill. ?I did this because I suspected increased friction as the car also has
> a been coasting very poorly.
>
> YES. ?The noise was there when I put it in neutral and spun the motor. ?And
> it would quickly slow down when I released the throttle.
>
> I can't see the commutator or brushes. Not sure what scoring is, but I
> looked under the car last night and there was no damage, obvious wear and
> tear.
>
> Thanks again!
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
http://n4.nabble.com/Motor-Grinding-Noise-tp786463p787284.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
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--
http://www.evalbum.com/2149

------------------------------

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End of EV Digest, Vol 28, Issue 37
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