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Today's Topics:

    1. Yet more extra EV parts to move, factory fresh Zilla 1kehv
       with fuse (Paul Wallace)
    2. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place - Businessmodel
       discussion... (Seth Rothenberg)
    3. Re: OK you-all create an alternative to the car (Dan)
    4. Re: Crazy charging idea (EVDL Administrator)
    5. Battery sag vs. SOC (Buddy Mills)
    6. Re: Crazy charging idea (Seth Rothenberg)
    7. Re: Crazy charging idea (Dennis Miles)
    8. Re: EV motorcycle transcontinental Attempt (cowtown@...)
    9. Re: EV motorcycle transcontinental Attempt (Lock Hughes)
   10. Re: Crazy charging idea (Esko and Megan)
   11. Re: Crazy charging idea (Cor van de Water)
   12. Re: Crazy charging idea (Roland Wiench)
   13. Re: EV Plug-Connector and safety (Bob Rice)
   14.  How'd they get my design? (Rob Trahms)
   15. Re: How'd they get my design? (Doc Kennedy)
   16. Re: Crazy charging idea (Jeff Shanab)
   17. Re: EV motorcycle transcontinental Attempt (cowtown@...)
   18. Re: Crazy charging idea (Roland Wiench)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 12:30:32 -0800
From: Paul Wallace <ianaudio@...>
Subject: [EVDL] Yet more extra EV parts to move, factory fresh Zilla
	 1kehv with fuse
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <3F198848-0841-41DF-AB6F-8C8DF6CEA445@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes

The zolox speed sensor finally arrived so now I have a complete Zilla
1kehv to sell.  It is factory reconditioned with a brand new pot box
style hair ball.  The package also includes a compatible traction
power fuse.  I didn't put many miles on this one before I took it out
of service.  The hairball was damaged and the power module was near a
battery fire, but Otmar has given it a clean bill of health and
replaced the hairball entirely, so it is essentially as good as new.

Send me email if you are interested in owning this fine controller.

Paul Wallace
'94 S10 longbed under construction



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 17:09:30 -0500
From: Seth Rothenberg <nevjersey@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
	 Businessmodel discussion...
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <e80545a50911251409k6c75d949l79d19930d3744d39@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

One thing worth considering is this...there may be a
desired goal and one way to get there that many
people would like to take.

I know someone who is in the business of leasing
solar panels.   I talked to him for a few minutes,
and he conceded that it is a terrible model for the
customer...but many customers can't afford the
preferred approach (buying panels outright).

A not-for-profit could buy panels and lose the
Federal tax credit completely.   But if they lease-to-own,
the vendor can give them the tax credit towards
their lease.

(It's amusing that this fellow leases panels for a
living, but has a beautiful clear south-facing half roof
that is empty.  Oh well.)


The point is, Shai Agassi has a goal in mind: to wean
the world of oil dependency (I personally think I know
some of his motivation, but it's Off Topic).

So he says, make cars with swappable batteries,
and civilians will accept them (especially if the tax
differential is 50% between gas car and electric).

But how to help the company be able to afford to
kick-start this?  By letting them in effect be the
electricity vendor as well.

Let these civilians drive EVs for a few years - say 5 -
then they will buy another EV.   With or without the
swap feature....perhaps they will have realized that
the swap feature is not so needed.

And many people only hold onto a car for 3-5 years...
which is long enough for the next generation
(car or driver :-)  to arrive.

(The statistic is based on my experience...I bought a
3-year old car when I moved to NY.   It died on my wedding day.
Six years later, the replacement died (or needed a
motor transplant  - goody! :-)  All of these cars were 3-5 years
old at purchase.    My first new car will be a Hybrid Minivan
or a Sunrise EV2 :-)



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 12:22:15 -0800
From: "Dan" <dworsfold@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OK you-all create an alternative to the car
To: <ev@...>
Message-ID: <001801ca6e0c$fb0a9c80$f11fd580$@net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Look up MEGA-Squirt at MSEFI.com-there is lots of info about DIY automotive
computers.  It also describes how sensors work.  There is also a list that
you can subscribe to ask questions, there are a lot of people around the
world usuing megasquirt in various vehicles (including jet-skis,
motorcycles, and alternative fuel vehicles)







Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 07:58:43 -0500

From: Collin Kidder <collink@...>

Subject: Re: [EVDL] OK you-all create an alternative to the car

       computer

To: ev@...

Message-ID: <4B0D2A03.1010508@...>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed



It's an interesting idea. It would somewhat fit the KISS principle as

one would not be removing or modifying anything but what is absolutely

necessary. However, I fear that each car has the potential to be too

different for one solution to work. Still, I think such an emulation box

could be constructed by using a system with a CAN bus input and many yet

to be defined outputs. It's easy to get a hold of microprocessors with

50 or more output pins. Usually several of them will be PCM capable,

etc. Then, if the ICE engine had a TTL signal output camshaft sensor you

could emulate it by knowing the RPMs of the electric motor. But I

haven't looked closely at the way that modern cars communicate with the

engine itself.



It seems like something akin to what you suggest will be necessary as

cars more toward more and more computer control. It almost has to be

easier to emulate a couple of sensors instead of ripping out all the

smarts of the car.



On 11/24/2009 3:58 PM, Cor van de Water wrote:

> So leave the whole system with all ECUs intact and simulate the ICE sensor
data

> to let the smarts of the new car *assume* that there still is an engine.

> You could base the engine sensor data on actual motor data such as RPM

> so that together with throttle input, it could even shift correctly....

> (If necessary after reprogramming the gearshift ECU)

> The shift blank can go to the motor controller.

> (the Zilla already accepts this, or it may be the hairball

>   and I also saw it on my DCP Raptor)

>

> Kind of like using an XP simulator on a Macintosh to get a Windows app to
work...

> Probably easier than rewriting the entire app to use the Mac directly and
to repeat it for each app...

> Anybody into developing an "engine simulator box" for EV converters of new
cars?

> May be just a box with CAN interface and a few sensor inputs for RPM, temp
and such.

> Select which virtual engine you want to simulate in SW...

> Heck - they probably already have this in every car development lab.

> But those likely cost more than a few new cars.



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Message: 4
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 18:55:29 -0500
From: "EVDL Administrator" <evpost@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Crazy charging idea
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <4B0D7DA1.9465.C94F76@...>

As a EE, Lee Hart may be able to weigh in here with better info, but I'd be
very hesitant to try using a travel adapter with a battery charger.

Many of the larger ones are meant for use only with resistive heating
appliances.  They work like a light dimmer, chopping up the AC sine wave.
They may not produce the desired results with a linear transformer charger,
and they almost certainly won't with a switching-type charger.  You could
end up overheating the charger or getting the wrong output.

The ones which are real autotransformers should be fine, at least short
term.  But then you still have the hazard of forgetting to change the
configuration when you change the voltage.  And autotransformer converters
with real power ratings (let alone continuous power ratings) are expensive.

Regardless of which type of travel adapter you use, remember that virtually
all of them are intended for intermittent use only.  Unless you're well
below their rated output power, continuous use - as with a battery charger -
can easily overheat and ruin them.  (I found this out the hard way with one
of these adapters several years ago.)

Either a universal input charger or a traction pack driven DC:DC would be a
much safer option.

David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/




------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 18:54:13 -0500
From: "Buddy Mills" <buddymills@...>
Subject: [EVDL] Battery sag vs. SOC
To: <ev@...>
Message-ID: <000b01ca6e2a$97540c30$c5fc2490$@net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I have been running my EV for a couple of weeks now and have about 200
miles.  Mostly short trips to break in the batteries and a few up to 20
miles and keeping an eye on the SOC.  Was wondering about voltage sag.  I
know that my DEKA 831Gs have a lot of sag but I would like to know how the
80% DOD comes into play.  Today I decided to push it a little bit more.  The
sag was quite noticeable, voltage less then desirable by the SOC meter while
in use,  but once I stopped, waited about 5 minutes the SOC was at about 25%
(75% DOD).  After another 30 minutes of sitting it was at 50% SOC.



The question I have is do I monitor for the sag voltage or can I take them
down to 80% DOD of  the resting voltage.  I want to insure that don't
destroy these Deka in the 1st few months.



TIA

Buddy Mills

  <mailto:buddymills@...> buddymills@...



Look mom, no gas.  <http://www.evalbum.com/2887> http://www.evalbum.com/2887



Disclaimer:  No animals were harmed or killed in the process of writing this
email.  Any stories to the contrary are, for the most part, either fictional
or greatly exaggerated.



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Message: 6
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 22:25:12 -0500
From: Seth Rothenberg <nevjersey@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Crazy charging idea
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <e80545a50911251925nadd7d46obb9adc501eb74daa@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Since we are re-capping the charger and DC/DC topic....
it might be OK to ask, does anyone have the how-to on
converting a PC power supply to a charger?

I am referring to all those modern switching supplies
I have from recently retired computers.

I think there's a resister that drags the voltage down to 12 ?
Or does that apply to older, non-switching supplies?
(most of which BTW have a selector for 115/230)

Thanks
Seth



------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 23:10:23 -0500
From: Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Crazy charging idea
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <2b4886ce0911252010p7820ff0cm259fb9fefdd08cd2@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Since the late 1970's power supplies for PCs have been switch mode units,

  My 1978 Osborn-1 had a switching supply, as did the first IBM PC in 1981.

Since 1981, the internal fan has run on +12 vDC, and the supply outputed
  +12, -12, +5, and -5 volts (a load was mandated on those early units +5
output or the supply would destroy themselves at turn on of the ac supply.

  The -5 and -12 outputs were low (<0.1A.) current, and the +12 was ~1A. The
+5 was ~10A.  The supply was rated 65 Watts.

In 1983 I started the First PC Repair class in a Post Secondary school in
Florida. (P.V.T.I.)
Pinellas Vocational Technical Institute, now renamed Pinellas Technical
Education Center.

  After 1983 and the IBM AT with an 80286 processor followed by the 80386 and
80486 (With internal math co-processor) we upgraded to 200 watt power
supplies in most systems.

Most units had the "120 or 240" switch, however, some were rated for 95 to
250 vAC and had no switch after 1994.

Except for blowing out the dust with canned air and adding memory upgrades I
haven't done much to a Pentium hardware related.

Regards,
  Dennis Miles
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------\
--------------------
On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 10:25 PM, Seth Rothenberg <nevjersey@...>wrote:

> Since we are re-capping the charger and DC/DC topic....
> it might be OK to ask, does anyone have the how-to on
> converting a PC power supply to a charger?
>
> I am referring to all those modern switching supplies
> I have from recently retired computers.
>
> I think there's a resister that drags the voltage down to 12 ?
> Or does that apply to older, non-switching supplies?
> (most of which BTW have a selector for 115/230)
>
> Thanks
> Seth
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>


--
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Message: 8
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 20:42:59 -0800
From: cowtown@...
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV motorcycle transcontinental Attempt
To: ev@...
Message-ID:
	 <20091125204259.ss1g42000044sggw-pbjgbja@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes";
	 format="flowed"

<<< Wonder if there could be some exposure for him via the media? (other than
his website). Anyone have connections, this is a serious attempt, probably a
first! >>>

For an electric bike - probably; for any EV - no, but none has gone
the whole way.


Think more
     Talk less
        Become wise



------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 22:14:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Lock Hughes <lockhughes@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV motorcycle transcontinental Attempt
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <288321.67028.qm@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

--- On Wed, 11/25/09, cowtown@... <cowtown@...> wrote:
> <<< Wonder if there could be
> some exposure for him via the media? (other than
> his website). Anyone have connections, this is a serious
> attempt, probably a
> first! >>>
>
> For an electric bike - probably; for any EV - no, but none
> has gone?the whole way.

Just wish to add this link to the thread. It's a two vid about Justin
Lemire-Elmore's trip across North America last year by ebike:
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=7678925878624577581&ei=8BsOS-y_HY3uqQK23c\
i5DQ#

tks
Lock


       __________________________________________________________________
Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr!

http://www.flickr.com/gift/



------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 21:45:04 -0800
From: "Esko and Megan" <ptenmcate@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Crazy charging idea
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <D9B600AEDDEB48AE94DC43660E714853@EskoPC>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I agree with John to "DON'T USE THE GROUND LINE" but probably not for the
same reason.  The ground line is usually a lighter grade wire, not designed
for normal use, so use the neutral wire as mentioned.  However, if you go
look in the circuit box, you will probably find both wires connected to the
same bus, so in theory, it doesn't make any difference.

Esko


-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
Of Roland Wiench

----- Original Message -----
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <Cougar@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 7:10 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Crazy charging idea


> Hmm, a long reply that is kind-of relevant to the question, but doesn't
> really answer anything.
>
> Yes, you CAN use 1/2 of the 220 line to power your 110 device.
> BUT DON'T USE THE GROUND LINE.
> Use the Neutral line as the "return" for the 110 device.
> This does require a 4 pin plug for your 220 charging, but those are
> relatively common and quite available.



------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 00:19:16 -0800
From: "Cor van de Water" <CWater@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Crazy charging idea
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <1E3D081C7B502B4A988F643E604CF963970980@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I did not want to bring this up again, but since
we are on the topic (again) let me add my experience
with a laptop power supply as 90-265VAC charger.
Note that we are talking about the accessory battery
charging, not pack charging.
I used a Toshiba laptop supply delivering 15V 4A and
a diode (use two depending on your battery chemistry)
to drop voltage to about 14V.
Since this power supply is current limited and
wide input range, it sounds like a candidate solution
here and it is cheap.

Success,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: CWater@...    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: cor_van_de_water@...
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On
Behalf Of Seth Rothenberg
Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 8:55 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Crazy charging idea

Since we are re-capping the charger and DC/DC topic....
it might be OK to ask, does anyone have the how-to on converting a PC
power supply to a charger?

I am referring to all those modern switching supplies I have from
recently retired computers.

I think there's a resister that drags the voltage down to 12 ?
Or does that apply to older, non-switching supplies?
(most of which BTW have a selector for 115/230)

Thanks
Seth

_______________________________________________
General support: http://evdl.org/help/
Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/ Subscription options:
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev




------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 07:52:29 -0800
From: "Roland Wiench" <ev_7@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Crazy charging idea
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <BLU144-DS7BA15D6AEF1B31EA8D43FBE9B0@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"




----- Original Message -----
From: "Esko and Megan" <ptenmcate@...>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 9:45 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Crazy charging idea


> I agree with John to "DON'T USE THE GROUND LINE" but probably not for the
> same reason.  The ground line is usually a lighter grade wire, not
> designed
> for normal use, so use the neutral wire as mentioned.  However, if you go
> look in the circuit box, you will probably find both wires connected to
> the
> same bus, so in theory, it doesn't make any difference.
>
> Esko
>

In new construction in a residential home and as per NEC, the ground and
neutral connection shall be only made at the closes connection to the ground
rod.  In a home, this connection may be made only at a meter base or a
combination disconnect meter base where the ground wire from the ground rod
and the incoming service neutral are made first.

This was done, because if the neutral inside a building become loose or
disconnected, then the ground wire and all the ground enclosures become a
continuous flow of current. You want to shunt this path of current as far
down the line as possible.

The NEC change the grounding conductor size to be the same size of the No.
14, 12, and 10 AWG feeder wires.  If a line conductor is rated for 20 amps
and you have a 20 amp short, then the ground conductor must also be rate for
20 amp.

In some commercial and industrial buildings, we run a ground conductor with
the service out to the transformer where the neutral is connected to a
ground rod and the ground conductor is connected to its own ground rod.
These two ground rods are then connected together at the bottom of the
ground rod.  This method keeps allows any ground current to dissipated first
in to the earth.

This ground conductor is then connected to a ground rod at the building and
only the building ground conductors shall be connected to the grounding
electrode. A lightning ground rod, communication ground, and static grounds
shall be kept isolated from the electrical grounds.

In the future, you will see this type of grounding for all buildings.
These changes only seem to come, when some one is kill or something blows
up.

Roland





------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 11:16:26 -0500
From: "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Plug-Connector and safety
To: <rodhower@...>, "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
	 <ev@...>
Message-ID: <ECC0B26A89BC4427908C2FCBD3B10089@adminwlzisp2uc>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original


----- Original Message -----
From: <rodhower@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 6:54 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Plug-Connector and safety


Kind of ironic?
http://www.soyouwanna.com/site/toptens/accidents/accidentsfull.html
"
4. THE MOST COMMON CAUSE OF ACCIDENTAL DEATH

1. Motor vehicle crashes
Deaths per year: 43,200

The winner, by a ridiculously huge (and ever-increasing) margin is: death by
car wreck. Head on collision, sideswipe, single-vehicle smash-up, full car
rollover, pedestrian takedown, choking on own carsick vomit, spontaneous
combustion-the fun never stops for car owners. Try air travel instead; it's
much safer. Do you see it anywhere on this list?
"
I guess it would be safer to walk, but then again you may be run over by a
car :-)
And for EV content, how many deaths have you heard about regarding plugging
in an EV?  You many say there are very few EV's on the road, but there are
hundreds of thousands not on the road, golf carts, forklifts, utility
vehicles etc.

   Same for plugging in RV's; Win-a Begles,Converted Skool buses, stuff like
that?? After all they are the SAME damn thing? Rubber tired vehicles,
outdoors, using "stench cords. But a hellova lot stronger lobby?You didn't
mention walking to the TRAIN station? Japan's Bullit train has a perfect
safety record NOT counting suicides, as it is a preffered way to get out of
life(quick?)Taiwan, France,Germany? Well THEY had a few bad ones? EVEN our
beloved Amtrak? Yur safer on the "Late Sure Limited" or the "Coast
Starlate"At least YOU won't be hit by a car!But Amtrak is a Darwin's Law
provider as well as all the Light Rail operators! Folks lose arguments in
PDX with the MAX trains all the time!

     Oh! I forgot? Fueling ICE cars and trux? When ya stop and THINK about
it: You let the standard dumb, warped, US~ian Sheeple fuel their OWN cars! A
match or cogerette lighter and you could blow the whole place up, a blast
that would turn talaban guyz green witrh envey!A car crashes through a gas
station? BOOM! Not an issue IF an EV causes a Short Circus at a charge
station? Breaker won't reset? Everybody drives off, pissed, but dignity
intact?

    Oh yeah! Happy Thanksgiving! We give thanks for our glacial progress with
EV's, and our families gathering around us!!!

      Seeya

      Bob
--- On Tue, 11/24/09, Lock Hughes <lockhughes@...> wrote:

> From: Lock Hughes <lockhughes@...>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Plug-Connector
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
> Date: Tuesday, November 24, 2009, 6:02 PM
> Hear Hear!
>
> --- On Tue, 11/24/09, storm connors <stormconnors@...>
> wrote:
>
> > From: storm connors <stormconnors@...>
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Plug-Connector
> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
> > Received: Tuesday, November 24, 2009, 5:58 PM
> > I'm with you, Jon. But I am sure if
> > there are lawyers and money to be
> > made the system will be made as expensive and
> complicated
> > as possible
> > in the name of SAFETY.
> >
> > We justify all sorts of crap in the name of safety. It
> is
> > so hard to
> > put forth any rational argument when the reply is "in
> 1938
> > someone was
> > killed because ...." How many layers of "safety"
> devices on
> > the modern
> > automobile? It's a wonder anyone survived the Model
> T!
> >
> > It is surprising that we are still allowed to plug in
> a
> > toaster.
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 2:53 PM, Jon Glauser <jonglauser@...>
> > wrote:
> > > Thats pretty cool to see them so supportive of
> and
> > prepared for EVs.
> > >
> > > It seems to me as though all the power companies
> are
> > looking at
> > > special equipment to charge EVs. But mot all of
> us
> > have been using the
> > > same plugs our appliances use. I'm worried they
> will
> > make it illegal
> > > to charge EVs with an extension cord somehow.
> I'm
> > quite happy with my
> > > 25' cord and 20A outlet, and I'm not excited to
> have
> > to buy a $1000
> > > meter/base/cable/connector.
> > >
> > >
> > > -Jon Glauser
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________________________
> Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr!
>
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------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 08:44:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Rob Trahms <rtrahms@...>
Subject: [EVDL]  How'd they get my design?
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <1259253895288-788331.post@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/26/top-gear-team-builds-ev-shows-how-complex-car\
-production-really/

Happy Thanksgiving everybody!
Rob
--
View this message in context:
http://n4.nabble.com/How-d-they-get-my-design-tp788331p788331.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.



------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 12:20:01 -0500
From: Doc Kennedy <dockennedy@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] How'd they get my design?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <400884990911260920h73e07cc2w7660cd0b81718bb@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

What a load of ''bovine defacation' and an insult to all EV'ers every-
where. To think what the time and money put into that entire production
could have done to truly promote not denegrate the
electric vehicle concept and community. Lee Hart, Jerry Dycus and
anyone of many others could honored not  disgraced the cause.
There is no laughter in this part of Voltville!

Doc Kennedy, EV builder and racer, in the Backwoods of Virginia.

On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 11:44 AM, Rob Trahms <rtrahms@...> wrote:

>
>
>
http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/26/top-gear-team-builds-ev-shows-how-complex-car\
-production-really/
>
> Happy Thanksgiving everybody!
> Rob
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://n4.nabble.com/How-d-they-get-my-design-tp788331p788331.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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>
>
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------------------------------

Message: 16
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:38:11 -0800
From: Jeff Shanab <jshanab@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Crazy charging idea
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <4B0EBD03.5010908@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Huh?
     I have only wired 4 or 5 homes and a slew of machinery at one
company. All in California and I am not an electrician, but I think the
explanation here is misleading.

Because we interchange the terms neutral and ground a lot in layman speak?

3 or 4 wires come in to my house and 1 is called ground and one is
called neutral and two are hot.
Ground and neutral are seperate bars in the circuit box and the ground
goes to a ground rod. (if 4 wires in then the one called ground goes to
the pipes and the ground rod. If 3 wires then the fourth comes solely
from the ground rod.)

But the neutral and ground are bonded together anyway. (except in GFI
breakers where we must measure current in the  earth ground)

What I am trying to say is that we have a ground wire but we also have
two hots and a neutral
across 1 hot and 1 neutral is 110VAC and across the 2 hots is 220VAC

If fact all the neutrals come into 1 bar and all the breakers plug in to
alternating legs of 110. The 220 breakers are just 2 wide and pick up
one of each leg.

Is California Different?


> Hello Collin,
>
> It's been since the 40's when the ground conductor was use as a current
> carrying conductor.  The NEC change this method of wiring so there would be
> no continue current flow on the ground wire and grounded enclosures.
>
> In a 120 volt 2 line transformer we can choose either output lead to be
> grounded to a ground rod.  In a 240 volt 3 line transformer we center tap
> half way down the coils of the 240 volt secondary.  We call this the neutral
> wire or sometimes call the common wire.
>
> This neutral wire is connected to a ground rod at the transformer and to the
> case of a metal case transformer.  This grounding method is use for
> lightning protection which shunts most of the lightning to ground.
>
> In some residential homes in some states, the service wire from the
> transformer to the house may be either three wire with a neutral that is
> ground again at the first disconnect switch and/or meter base. The neutral
> is again grounded to a ground rod.
>
> >From this neutral and grounding point, there shall be no other neutral to
> ground connections and must install a separate ground wire through the
> circuits, which now makes it a 4 wire system of two lines, a insulated
> neutral wire and neutral bar, a ground wire and un-insulated ground bar that
> self's ground to the panels and all other metal case junction boxes and
> devices mountings.
>
> The ground wire shall only be use to prevent a continuous flow of current on
> a enclosure of a device.  This is a short interrupting current so as to
> prevent a shock hazard to anyone. This interrupting time in the new circuits
> breakers will allow you to push in a shorting pin into a receptacle with
> your bare fingers, that the pin will not get hot.  I would not recommend you
> try that with a older breaker set.
>
> Roland
>



------------------------------

Message: 17
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 10:51:53 -0800
From: cowtown@...
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV motorcycle transcontinental Attempt
To: ev@...
Message-ID:
	 <20091126105153.35qhzrm9wkwsskc4-pbjgbja@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes";
	 format="flowed"

<<< Just wish to add this link to the thread. It's a two vid about
Justin Lemire-Elmore's trip across North America last year by ebike:
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=7678925878624577581&ei=8BsOS-y_HY3uqQK23c\
i5DQ#
  >>>

In most U.S. states, nothing without a license, or under a certain
speed, can travel on the interstates legally - people have pedaled
across the country, they just use other highways.

It takes a lot more electricity to run at freeway speeds, which is why
you need some high amp outlets along the way (or spend much longer
sipping off 110V).



------------------------------

Message: 18
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 10:59:30 -0800
From: "Roland Wiench" <ev_7@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Crazy charging idea
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <BLU144-DS67C0E016F60BCE84F22A1BE9B0@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Hello Jeff,

You got it right for the internal wiring up to the panel.  We use to cross
connect the insulated neutral bar with a jumper to the un-insulated ground
bar in the inside panel.

This cross connection has now been move to the meter base where you now have
to run two Lines wires, a neutral and a ground from the internal C/B box to
the meter base or a combination meter base and disconnect switch.

In some states, metal water pipes must have a insulated ground wire run all
the way to this same ground point or even can be directly connected to a
second position on the ground rod.

The reason for this type of connection is if the water service was in a
conductive water pipe, and one house loses it neutral connection in the
service entrance, the water system could have a continuous current flow from
one house with the open neutral through the water pipes through the other
house neutral.

I have seen this happen one time. The neutral wire connection on a overhead
service conductor open. All the grounded electrical enclosures had current
flowing over them.  This normally does not happen too often with a
non-conductive water system.

Roland

Roland


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <jshanab@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 9:38 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Crazy charging idea


> Huh?
>     I have only wired 4 or 5 homes and a slew of machinery at one
> company. All in California and I am not an electrician, but I think the
> explanation here is misleading.
>
> Because we interchange the terms neutral and ground a lot in layman speak?
>
> 3 or 4 wires come in to my house and 1 is called ground and one is
> called neutral and two are hot.
> Ground and neutral are seperate bars in the circuit box and the ground
> goes to a ground rod. (if 4 wires in then the one called ground goes to
> the pipes and the ground rod. If 3 wires then the fourth comes solely
> from the ground rod.)
>
> But the neutral and ground are bonded together anyway. (except in GFI
> breakers where we must measure current in the  earth ground)
>
> What I am trying to say is that we have a ground wire but we also have
> two hots and a neutral
> across 1 hot and 1 neutral is 110VAC and across the 2 hots is 220VAC
>
> If fact all the neutrals come into 1 bar and all the breakers plug in to
> alternating legs of 110. The 220 breakers are just 2 wide and pick up
> one of each leg.
>
> Is California Different?
>
>
> > Hello Collin,
> >
> > It's been since the 40's when the ground conductor was use as a current
> > carrying conductor.  The NEC change this method of wiring so there would
> > be
> > no continue current flow on the ground wire and grounded enclosures.
> >
> > In a 120 volt 2 line transformer we can choose either output lead to be
> > grounded to a ground rod.  In a 240 volt 3 line transformer we center
> > tap
> > half way down the coils of the 240 volt secondary.  We call this the
> > neutral
> > wire or sometimes call the common wire.
> >
> > This neutral wire is connected to a ground rod at the transformer and to
> > the
> > case of a metal case transformer.  This grounding method is use for
> > lightning protection which shunts most of the lightning to ground.
> >
> > In some residential homes in some states, the service wire from the
> > transformer to the house may be either three wire with a neutral that is
> > ground again at the first disconnect switch and/or meter base. The
> > neutral
> > is again grounded to a ground rod.
> >
> > >From this neutral and grounding point, there shall be no other neutral
> > >to
> > ground connections and must install a separate ground wire through the
> > circuits, which now makes it a 4 wire system of two lines, a insulated
> > neutral wire and neutral bar, a ground wire and un-insulated ground bar
> > that
> > self's ground to the panels and all other metal case junction boxes and
> > devices mountings.
> >
> > The ground wire shall only be use to prevent a continuous flow of
> > current on
> > a enclosure of a device.  This is a short interrupting current so as to
> > prevent a shock hazard to anyone. This interrupting time in the new
> > circuits
> > breakers will allow you to push in a shorting pin into a receptacle with
> > your bare fingers, that the pin will not get hot.  I would not recommend
> > you
> > try that with a older breaker set.
> >
> > Roland
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>



------------------------------

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For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



End of EV Digest, Vol 28, Issue 39
**********************************

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Today's Topics:

    1. Re: Charger plug/socket (Dennis Miles)
    2. Re: EV Plug-Connector (Rush)
    3. Re: OK you-all create an alternative to the car computer
       (Collin Kidder)
    4. Crazy charging idea (Collin Kidder)
    5. Re: Crazy charging idea (Roland Wiench)
    6. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place - Businessmodel
       discussion... (Roger Heuckeroth)
    7. Re: Motor Grinding Noise (Roger Heuckeroth)
    8. Re: Crazy charging idea (John G. Lussmyer)
    9. EV Cost and Stuff, WAS Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better
       Place -Businessmodel discussion... (Bob Rice)
   10. Re: Crazy charging idea (Roland Wiench)
   11. Re: Crazy charging idea (EVDL Administrator)
   12. Re: OK you-all create an alternative to the car computer
       (Lee Hart)
   13. Re: Crazy charging idea (Roger Heuckeroth)
   14. Re: OK you-all create an alternative to the car computer
       (Steven Ciciora)
   15. Re: Crazy charging idea (Collin Kidder)
   16. Re: Crazy charging idea (Collin Kidder)
   17. Re: OK you-all create an alternative to the car computer
       (Collin Kidder)
   18. EV motorcycle transcontinental Attempt (Marc Michon)
   19. Re: Crazy charging idea (Dennis Miles)
   20. Re: Crazy charging idea (Collin Kidder)
   21. Re: EV motorcycle transcontinental Attempt (Dave Hymers)
   22. Re: Crazy charging idea (Dennis Miles)
   23. Re: EV motorcycle transcontinental Attempt (Travis Gintz)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 00:29:45 -0500
From: Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <2b4886ce0911242129l13164a06v10bd35623172d1dd@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 9:46 PM, storm connors <stormconnors@...>wrote:

> What is wrong with using the 240v plug that looks like a standard 120v
> with a blade turned sideways? If you drive away it pulls out.
>
> ==================== The small one like that is 120v at 20 A
=================
And the big one (2 Inch ?) is most often a side exit and not a straight
pull.

But I agree to avoid "Twist to lock" so as not to destroy connectors on
accidental pull away.

There has been a LOT of good information and suggestions in this thread.

But I still do not plug into the EV, I only plug into the supply. That way
the cord is in the box in the boot/trunk and the plug and cord are dragged
out of the locking fuel flap to plug in. And after unplugging it is shoved
back in the same hole so it falls into a random pile in the box . I don't
want it stolen.

You can get reels that hold the cord but I don't want the rotating contacts
in my EV.

Those Automatic plug ejectors looked great but they imply that I will leave
the cord at home?

Regards,

     Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
        Phone (863) 289 - 0690
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------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 00:19:56 -0700
From: "Rush" <Rush@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Plug-Connector
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <CDC98C51BCD34D6A9F1B0E27B2B30D16@meadow>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original

This is an old out of date page that should have been taken down a long time
ago.

The dates in the pdf reference the 1999 NEC.... that is 9 years ago... and
they refer to conductive chargers...

sure are moving fast....


----- Original Message -----
From: "Marc Michon" <marc07@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 12:24 PM
Subject: [EVDL] EV Plug-Connector


> Here is what PG&E in California has on EV charging standards
>
http://www.pge.com/mybusiness/environment/pge/cleanair/electricdrivevehicles/cha\
rging/index.shtml
> Scroll to EV charging essentials, has connector info
> they are moving pretty fast on it surprisingly
> i talked to a guy at their EV transportation section
> they are updating as get Nemna, UL updates
> they guy has an AC Propulsion Ebox
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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>



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 07:58:43 -0500
From: Collin Kidder <collink@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OK you-all create an alternative to the car
	 computer
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <4B0D2A03.1010508@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

It's an interesting idea. It would somewhat fit the KISS principle as
one would not be removing or modifying anything but what is absolutely
necessary. However, I fear that each car has the potential to be too
different for one solution to work. Still, I think such an emulation box
could be constructed by using a system with a CAN bus input and many yet
to be defined outputs. It's easy to get a hold of microprocessors with
50 or more output pins. Usually several of them will be PCM capable,
etc. Then, if the ICE engine had a TTL signal output camshaft sensor you
could emulate it by knowing the RPMs of the electric motor. But I
haven't looked closely at the way that modern cars communicate with the
engine itself.

It seems like something akin to what you suggest will be necessary as
cars more toward more and more computer control. It almost has to be
easier to emulate a couple of sensors instead of ripping out all the
smarts of the car.

On 11/24/2009 3:58 PM, Cor van de Water wrote:
> So leave the whole system with all ECUs intact and simulate the ICE sensor
data
> to let the smarts of the new car *assume* that there still is an engine.
> You could base the engine sensor data on actual motor data such as RPM
> so that together with throttle input, it could even shift correctly....
> (If necessary after reprogramming the gearshift ECU)
> The shift blank can go to the motor controller.
> (the Zilla already accepts this, or it may be the hairball
>   and I also saw it on my DCP Raptor)
>
> Kind of like using an XP simulator on a Macintosh to get a Windows app to
work...
> Probably easier than rewriting the entire app to use the Mac directly and to
repeat it for each app...
> Anybody into developing an "engine simulator box" for EV converters of new
cars?
> May be just a box with CAN interface and a few sensor inputs for RPM, temp and
such.
> Select which virtual engine you want to simulate in SW...
> Heck - they probably already have this in every car development lab.
> But those likely cost more than a few new cars.
>
>



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 08:07:15 -0500
From: Collin Kidder <collink@...>
Subject: [EVDL] Crazy charging idea
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <4B0D2C03.2070905@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

You all may remember how I was asking about using diodes and resistors
to charge a 12v battery in my EV car. People suggested that I should
just use a normal battery charger and not try to rig something together.
My potential issue with that was that the car has a dual 110/220 charger
so I could not guarantee which voltage would go to the 12v charger. I've
never seen a dual voltage 12v charger so that's a problem. However, I
got to thinking... In a house (and in a factory too... I checked) 220 is
actually delivered as two 110 leads 180 degrees out of phase creating a
220 RMS voltage. (I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this by
now...) So, if I always use the hot lead and the ground pin I will get
110 whether I'm using 110 or 220. This will send however many amps the
little 12v charger takes down the ground wire as long as the charger is
on. It'll also slightly knock the phases out of balance when using 220.
That's not a very big deal I don't think. It solves my problem with dual
voltage and prevents me from rednecking a charging solution between my
DC/DC converter and the 12v battery.

So, does it sound like a stupid idea and will the electrical inspector
slap my patties and put me in time out?



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 06:16:13 -0800
From: "Roland Wiench" <ev_7@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Crazy charging idea
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <BLU144-DS4936FD880471936433D4ABE9C0@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Hello Collin,

It's been since the 40's when the ground conductor was use as a current
carrying conductor.  The NEC change this method of wiring so there would be
no continue current flow on the ground wire and grounded enclosures.

In a 120 volt 2 line transformer we can choose either output lead to be
grounded to a ground rod.  In a 240 volt 3 line transformer we center tap
half way down the coils of the 240 volt secondary.  We call this the neutral
wire or sometimes call the common wire.

This neutral wire is connected to a ground rod at the transformer and to the
case of a metal case transformer.  This grounding method is use for
lightning protection which shunts most of the lightning to ground.

In some residential homes in some states, the service wire from the
transformer to the house may be either three wire with a neutral that is
ground again at the first disconnect switch and/or meter base. The neutral
is again grounded to a ground rod.

>From this neutral and grounding point, there shall be no other neutral to
ground connections and must install a separate ground wire through the
circuits, which now makes it a 4 wire system of two lines, a insulated
neutral wire and neutral bar, a ground wire and un-insulated ground bar that
self's ground to the panels and all other metal case junction boxes and
devices mountings.

The ground wire shall only be use to prevent a continuous flow of current on
a enclosure of a device.  This is a short interrupting current so as to
prevent a shock hazard to anyone. This interrupting time in the new circuits
breakers will allow you to push in a shorting pin into a receptacle with
your bare fingers, that the pin will not get hot.  I would not recommend you
try that with a older breaker set.

Roland








----- Original Message -----
From: "Collin Kidder" <collink@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 5:07 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Crazy charging idea


> You all may remember how I was asking about using diodes and resistors
> to charge a 12v battery in my EV car. People suggested that I should
> just use a normal battery charger and not try to rig something together.
> My potential issue with that was that the car has a dual 110/220 charger
> so I could not guarantee which voltage would go to the 12v charger. I've
> never seen a dual voltage 12v charger so that's a problem. However, I
> got to thinking... In a house (and in a factory too... I checked) 220 is
> actually delivered as two 110 leads 180 degrees out of phase creating a
> 220 RMS voltage. (I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this by
> now...) So, if I always use the hot lead and the ground pin I will get
> 110 whether I'm using 110 or 220. This will send however many amps the
> little 12v charger takes down the ground wire as long as the charger is
> on. It'll also slightly knock the phases out of balance when using 220.
> That's not a very big deal I don't think. It solves my problem with dual
> voltage and prevents me from rednecking a charging solution between my
> DC/DC converter and the 12v battery.
>
> So, does it sound like a stupid idea and will the electrical inspector
> slap my patties and put me in time out?
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 09:29:05 -0500
From: Roger Heuckeroth <rheuckeroth@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
	 Businessmodel discussion...
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <FB606B8C-16B8-461B-875C-D3B1EE73DE6A@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes

No argument.  I'll have $20,000+ into my conversion.  I could drive my
gas guzzling pick up 100,000+ miles at todays gas prices, and still
not break even.  Its about doing the right thing, and let's face it...
its about the EV grin!

On Nov 24, 2009, at 10:31 PM, storm connors wrote:

> I could come up with numbers to prove to my wife that the electric car
> saves money. Of course it would be erroneous if I compared apples to
> apples. It is easy to find an ICE vehicle for $2000.
>
> If you are honest about it, there is no way to save money with a
> conversion. We have to buy conversion parts at retail. If you are
> converting to save money, you will be disappointed.
>
> If you want to save money, buy a Kia. If you want to save the planet,
> convert. http://www.evalbum.com/1059
>
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 2:50 PM, Rodney Cook <r.cook@...> wrote:
>> In Seattle, each Puget Sound Energy customer has the option of
>> specifying
>> that their power comes from wind turbines. My EV is charged with
>> wind power
>> and my investment to make that happen is $12 per month.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...]
>> On Behalf
>> Of Roger Heuckeroth
>> Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 9:25 AM
>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
>> Businessmodel discussion...
>>
>>
>> On Nov 22, 2009, at 9:57 AM, Jeff Shanab wrote:
>>
>>>  I did my conversion and the adding of solar-grid tie to my house at
>>> the same time.
>>> I make more on the solar than I use in the EV. So we can eliminate
>>> the
>>> electricity from the cost/mile.
>>> Obviously the goal was not to save money right now. the solar costs.
>>> My
>>> goal was a zero balance sheet on transportation and daily power. I
>>> am
>>> not there yet.
>>
>> I was going to post a similar response to this thread.  I hope to
>> also
>> be there one day where I produce all my power needs for my home,
>> business and transportation.  I congratulate you, Jeff, on making
>> progress towards that goal.  Your further along to that goal than I
>> am.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
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>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1059
> http://stormselectric.blogspot.com/
> Storm
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
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>



------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 09:17:47 -0500
From: Roger Heuckeroth <rheuckeroth@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Grinding Noise
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <9CB26167-5FB6-4694-A460-B3714870062C@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes

Sounds like a collapsed bearing to me.

On Nov 24, 2009, at 7:37 PM, Stephen Jordan wrote:

>
> I posted some pictures online including a recording of the motor
> noise.
> (motor only revs to a few hundred rpm). High res images are
> available if you
> click the links at the bottom.
>
> http://web.me.com/sjjordan/Motor
>
> As far as I could tell, everything looked good. Nothing looked burnt
> or
> abnormal.  I'm not sure there's much else I can do without taking
> off the
> motor.  What kind of lubrication could I try and where do I put it?
>
> I usually put about 150A through the motor, but live in Alabama,
> which has
> lots of hills. It's common for the motor to pull 200A routinely
> climbing a
> hill.  My daily commute is 22mi and has a few hills.
>
> Thanks again for all your help guys! This forum is fantastic.
>
>
> a bad bearing will last a while usually before failing and it will
> start
> making a loud humming sound at the right speeds (ever had a car with
> wheel
> berings going bad just before a vacation with a lot of driving? The
> bearings
> will hold for thousands of miles luckily so they can be replaced
> afterwards
> if you can live with their whine)
>
> I wonder is you could have dry seals on bearings or axes - that will
> also
> cause friction and noise that will go away with lubrication. but it
> typically is not so much friction that you would notice it in poor
> coasting.
>
> Commutator and brushes are usually behind a metal grille, unless
> your motor
> has ducting, for example
> for air cooling (and as some like to say, to distribute the brush dust
> through your whole motor).
>
> Since you have a clutchless setup, over-speeding is not your main
> concern.
> It is lugging and overheating the motor. That can cause fast brush
> wear
> (from overheating) so I suggest to check the brushes and commutator
> first.
> Maybe you just need a mirror to look behind the motor at the brushes?
> Shoot pictures if possible, upload them on a website and post a like
> here -
> plenty people know how brushes and commutator *should* look like.
>
> How much current are you routinely pushing through this motor in your
> driving?
>
> Success,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: CWater@...    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: cor_van_de_water@...
> Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...]
> On Behalf
> Of Stephen Jordan
> Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 5:19 PM
> To: ev@...
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Grinding Noise
>
>
> Thanks for the reply.
>
> It's a 94 Saturn, manual transmission, clutch-less.
>
> It took about 5-8 seconds to spin down when I put it in neutral
> going down a
> hill.  I did this because I suspected increased friction as the car
> also has
> a been coasting very poorly.
>
> YES.  The noise was there when I put it in neutral and spun the
> motor.  And
> it would quickly slow down when I released the throttle.
>
> I can't see the commutator or brushes. Not sure what scoring is, but I
> looked under the car last night and there was no damage, obvious
> wear and
> tear.
>
> Thanks again!
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
http://n4.nabble.com/Motor-Grinding-Noise-tp786463p787284.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive
> at Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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>



------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 07:10:55 -0800
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <Cougar@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Crazy charging idea
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B0D48FF.6040207@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Hmm, a long reply that is kind-of relevant to the question, but doesn't
really answer anything.

Yes, you CAN use 1/2 of the 220 line to power your 110 device.
BUT DON'T USE THE GROUND LINE.
Use the Neutral line as the "return" for the 110 device.
This does require a 4 pin plug for your 220 charging, but those are
relatively common and quite available.


Roland Wiench wrote:
> Hello Collin,
>
> It's been since the 40's when the ground conductor was use as a current
> carrying conductor.  The NEC change this method of wiring so there would be
> no continue current flow on the ground wire and grounded enclosures.
>
> In a 120 volt 2 line transformer we can choose either output lead to be
> grounded to a ground rod.  In a 240 volt 3 line transformer we center tap
> half way down the coils of the 240 volt secondary.  We call this the neutral
> wire or sometimes call the common wire.
>
> This neutral wire is connected to a ground rod at the transformer and to the
> case of a metal case transformer.  This grounding method is use for
> lightning protection which shunts most of the lightning to ground.
>
> In some residential homes in some states, the service wire from the
> transformer to the house may be either three wire with a neutral that is
> ground again at the first disconnect switch and/or meter base. The neutral
> is again grounded to a ground rod.
>
> >From this neutral and grounding point, there shall be no other neutral to
> ground connections and must install a separate ground wire through the
> circuits, which now makes it a 4 wire system of two lines, a insulated
> neutral wire and neutral bar, a ground wire and un-insulated ground bar that
> self's ground to the panels and all other metal case junction boxes and
> devices mountings.
>
> The ground wire shall only be use to prevent a continuous flow of current on
> a enclosure of a device.  This is a short interrupting current so as to
> prevent a shock hazard to anyone. This interrupting time in the new circuits
> breakers will allow you to push in a shorting pin into a receptacle with
> your bare fingers, that the pin will not get hot.  I would not recommend you
> try that with a older breaker set.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Collin Kidder" <collink@...>
> To: <ev@...>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 5:07 AM
> Subject: [EVDL] Crazy charging idea
>
>
>
>> You all may remember how I was asking about using diodes and resistors
>> to charge a 12v battery in my EV car. People suggested that I should
>> just use a normal battery charger and not try to rig something together.
>> My potential issue with that was that the car has a dual 110/220 charger
>> so I could not guarantee which voltage would go to the 12v charger. I've
>> never seen a dual voltage 12v charger so that's a problem. However, I
>> got to thinking... In a house (and in a factory too... I checked) 220 is
>> actually delivered as two 110 leads 180 degrees out of phase creating a
>> 220 RMS voltage. (I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this by
>> now...) So, if I always use the hot lead and the ground pin I will get
>> 110 whether I'm using 110 or 220. This will send however many amps the
>> little 12v charger takes down the ground wire as long as the charger is
>> on. It'll also slightly knock the phases out of balance when using 220.
>> That's not a very big deal I don't think. It solves my problem with dual
>> voltage and prevents me from rednecking a charging solution between my
>> DC/DC converter and the 12v battery.
>>
>> So, does it sound like a stupid idea and will the electrical inspector
>> slap my patties and put me in time out?
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
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> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
>
>


--
--
John G. Lussmyer   mailto:Cougar@...
Electric Vehicle Battery Monitoring Systems, http://www.CasaDelGato.com




------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 10:21:07 -0500
From: "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
Subject: [EVDL] EV Cost and Stuff, WAS Nissan Leaf to be low cost -
	 Better Place -Businessmodel discussion...
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <5ED78A628A0147CFB9A7008E49FB096A@adminwlzisp2uc>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original

     Hi EVerybody;

    I commuted for YEARS with my E Rabbit, a 52 mile run to New Haven an'
back, with a cheepo conversion; I HAD the Rabbit, with warn out Diseasel, a
$900 used ADC motor, homemade contacter controller and USED set of
Badd-eries, Bad Boy charger. Well, I'm a charter member of the Poverty Motor
Club, anyhow. But well into these years, I was living in a Paid For house!
THAT was important for me! CARS are the WORST investment you can make! So ya
cobble something unique together that will get you to the Train, EVERY
day!And home, dignity intact!

    I never did the math, as I don't give a shit. You can argue EV
conversions any way ya like? I THINK I came out a bit on the plus side? Car
was de- preciated to begin with, did my own mechanikin' scrounged up stuff I
needed.But, let's face it, conversions and EV's are an expensive hobby; Like
drinking, women , boats, gambling, airplanes, private RR cars!? But driving
something you did yurself.....Priceless, as the ads say!

    But as the therme runs HERE, you are making a Statement to the clueless
US~ian Sheeple, that there IS an alternative to GAS cars, making people who
HATE us and EVerything we stand for, Filthy Rich. IF we could put them back
on Camels and living in tents, worth it, big time!!They WOULDN'T bother us
anymore?  2 billion a day of OUR wealth goes OUT of the Country for Oil and
it's products? Even the Titanic couldn't resist a flow of , well, those
titanic, proportions, for long?

   This, for me, is a biggie, for convinvcing Sheeple to change their ways
BEFORE the next National Emergency?As I THINK the Emperor of Japan said
after Pearl Harbor" We have awakened a Sleeping Giant". So, why we're here,
Wake up Giant!! Dammit WAKE UP!While there is still time?

    Other piece-ful stuff; Remember that post on Monday about plug sockets? I
ordered the one I liked from Mc Master Carr folks. It was HERE the NEXT
mourning!! Talk about FAST!!?? I never THOUGHT it could get here in 24 hours
or less/ UPS had put it on my front porch, I only found it yesterday
afternoon, when washing windoz, and having to go out there.USUALLY he puts
stuff by my garage. Nice sockets, was sorta disapointed that they were
plastic, sigh, but ARE well made, at 12 bux a pop, ther damn well SHOULD be!
No corrosion, being nylon? Decent size spades, etc made in USA EVen!Crouse
Hinds? It is nice to know that ya can get , I guess, most everything in
their catalog, in 24 hours. Catalog is thick enough to chock an 18 wheeler,
or block up yur EV, when ya gotta go under!They have every plug you can
THINK of! Happy Hunting!

    AND Happy Thanksgiving!! Gather yur family around, say a quiet prayer of
thanks for the USA we love, and are trying to save? My thanks for the fun,
wonderful folks I have met on here and in person.!!

      Seeya

      Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "storm connors" <stormconnors@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 10:31 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -Businessmodel
discussion...


I could come up with numbers to prove to my wife that the electric car
saves money. Of course it would be erroneous if I compared apples to
apples. It is easy to find an ICE vehicle for $2000.

If you are honest about it, there is no way to save money with a
conversion. We have to buy conversion parts at retail. If you are
converting to save money, you will be disappointed.

If you want to save money, buy a Kia. If you want to save the planet,
convert. http://www.evalbum.com/1059



On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 2:50 PM, Rodney Cook <r.cook@...> wrote:
> In Seattle, each Puget Sound Energy customer has the option of specifying
> that their power comes from wind turbines. My EV is charged with wind
> power
> and my investment to make that happen is $12 per month.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On
> Behalf
> Of Roger Heuckeroth
> Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 9:25 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
> Businessmodel discussion...
>
>
> On Nov 22, 2009, at 9:57 AM, Jeff Shanab wrote:
>
>> I did my conversion and the adding of solar-grid tie to my house at
>> the same time.
>> I make more on the solar than I use in the EV. So we can eliminate the
>> electricity from the cost/mile.
>> Obviously the goal was not to save money right now. the solar costs.
>> My
>> goal was a zero balance sheet on transportation and daily power. I am
>> not there yet.
>
> I was going to post a similar response to this thread. I hope to also
> be there one day where I produce all my power needs for my home,
> business and transportation. I congratulate you, Jeff, on making
> progress towards that goal. Your further along to that goal than I am.
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>



--
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1059
http://stormselectric.blogspot.com/
Storm

_______________________________________________
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------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 07:28:44 -0800
From: "Roland Wiench" <ev_7@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Crazy charging idea
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <BLU144-DS7FC730506F05A98F3C42ABE9C0@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

When you teach someone how to do something, you just do not say, you do this
and that and leave it there. You instruct someone in the complete science of
a system, so they can logical reason why it is done that way.





----- Original Message -----
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <Cougar@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 7:10 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Crazy charging idea


> Hmm, a long reply that is kind-of relevant to the question, but doesn't
> really answer anything.
>
> Yes, you CAN use 1/2 of the 220 line to power your 110 device.
> BUT DON'T USE THE GROUND LINE.
> Use the Neutral line as the "return" for the 110 device.
> This does require a 4 pin plug for your 220 charging, but those are
> relatively common and quite available.
>
>
> Roland Wiench wrote:
> > Hello Collin,
> >
> > It's been since the 40's when the ground conductor was use as a current
> > carrying conductor.  The NEC change this method of wiring so there would
> > be
> > no continue current flow on the ground wire and grounded enclosures.
> >
> > In a 120 volt 2 line transformer we can choose either output lead to be
> > grounded to a ground rod.  In a 240 volt 3 line transformer we center
> > tap
> > half way down the coils of the 240 volt secondary.  We call this the
> > neutral
> > wire or sometimes call the common wire.
> >
> > This neutral wire is connected to a ground rod at the transformer and to
> > the
> > case of a metal case transformer.  This grounding method is use for
> > lightning protection which shunts most of the lightning to ground.
> >
> > In some residential homes in some states, the service wire from the
> > transformer to the house may be either three wire with a neutral that is
> > ground again at the first disconnect switch and/or meter base. The
> > neutral
> > is again grounded to a ground rod.
> >
> > >From this neutral and grounding point, there shall be no other neutral
> > >to
> > ground connections and must install a separate ground wire through the
> > circuits, which now makes it a 4 wire system of two lines, a insulated
> > neutral wire and neutral bar, a ground wire and un-insulated ground bar
> > that
> > self's ground to the panels and all other metal case junction boxes and
> > devices mountings.
> >
> > The ground wire shall only be use to prevent a continuous flow of
> > current on
> > a enclosure of a device.  This is a short interrupting current so as to
> > prevent a shock hazard to anyone. This interrupting time in the new
> > circuits
> > breakers will allow you to push in a shorting pin into a receptacle with
> > your bare fingers, that the pin will not get hot.  I would not recommend
> > you
> > try that with a older breaker set.
> >
> > Roland
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Collin Kidder" <collink@...>
> > To: <ev@...>
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 5:07 AM
> > Subject: [EVDL] Crazy charging idea
> >
> >
> >
> >> You all may remember how I was asking about using diodes and resistors
> >> to charge a 12v battery in my EV car. People suggested that I should
> >> just use a normal battery charger and not try to rig something
> >> together.
> >> My potential issue with that was that the car has a dual 110/220
> >> charger
> >> so I could not guarantee which voltage would go to the 12v charger.
> >> I've
> >> never seen a dual voltage 12v charger so that's a problem. However, I
> >> got to thinking... In a house (and in a factory too... I checked) 220
> >> is
> >> actually delivered as two 110 leads 180 degrees out of phase creating a
> >> 220 RMS voltage. (I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this by
> >> now...) So, if I always use the hot lead and the ground pin I will get
> >> 110 whether I'm using 110 or 220. This will send however many amps the
> >> little 12v charger takes down the ground wire as long as the charger is
> >> on. It'll also slightly knock the phases out of balance when using 220.
> >> That's not a very big deal I don't think. It solves my problem with
> >> dual
> >> voltage and prevents me from rednecking a charging solution between my
> >> DC/DC converter and the 12v battery.
> >>
> >> So, does it sound like a stupid idea and will the electrical inspector
> >> slap my patties and put me in time out?
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> >> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> >> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> >> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> >> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> > Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> > Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> > Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> --
> John G. Lussmyer   mailto:Cougar@...
> Electric Vehicle Battery Monitoring Systems, http://www.CasaDelGato.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>



------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 10:33:53 -0500
From: "EVDL Administrator" <evpost@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Crazy charging idea
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B0D0811.8212.131051@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Don't do it!  To cut to the chase, the NEC prohibits using the grounding
system of your house as a regular conductor.  It's reserved for a safety
ground.

There's a good safety-related reason for this.  If there were a fault in
your house wiring - a loose ground connection where an electrician didn't
properly tighten a wirenut, for example - a portion of the ground system
would become partly or fully live when you connected your charger.  Any
other appliance plugged into that part of the system would then become live,
and could easily shock or electrocute someone.

Also, there are some simple practical reasons.  First, this kind of
connection will trip a GFI because it unbalances the current on the hot and
neutral conductors.  Second,  in some older houses, the ground conductor may

drastically undersized (IIRC, at one time a #18 ground was used with #14
current carrying conductors) or missing altogether.

What you want is a 120/240 volt input, 12 volt output battery charger.  You
say you've never seen one, but I found some easily with a web search.  Some
listed here are under $40.

http://www.batterystuff.com/battery-chargers/12-volt/multi-volt-input/

Alternatively, you could use a DC:DC converter powered from the traction
battery, as many other EV hobbyists do.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 09:37:07 -0600
From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OK you-all create an alternative to the car
	 computer
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B0D4F23.1040600@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Cor van de Water wrote:
> > So leave the whole system with all ECUs intact and simulate the ICE
> > sensor data to let the smarts of the new car *assume* that there
> > still is an engine.

Collin Kidder wrote:
>  It's an interesting idea. It would somewhat fit the KISS principle as
>  one would not be removing or modifying anything but what is
>  absolutely necessary. However, I fear that each car has the potential
>  to be too different for one solution to work.

I think modelling the engine is a good idea. But you're right; it would
be very difficult if you tried to figure out the codes for each and
every ICE. I think the way to approach it is to make the EV computer
operate as a "data logger", to watch what the ICE does and record it.
Then, after the ICE is removed, the EV computer "plays back" these
recordings so the other computers in the car think the ICE is still there.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net



------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 11:05:21 -0500
From: Roger Heuckeroth <rheuckeroth@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Crazy charging idea
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <A2FE2EFC-1EB7-41DA-86F7-B04480A84576@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes

This is a bit off topic, but this discussion reminds me of my
brother's hunting cabin.  At the age of 14 my brother decided to build
a hunting cabin in the woods about a half mile from our house.  We
hauled up the wood on our backs one stick at a time.  It was quite an
ambitious endevor, and took about a year to compete.  It had sheetrock
walls and ceiling, insulation and an oak floor.  Probably one of the
nicest hunting cabins in our neck of the woods.  He also wired it with
one circuit for lighting and an outlet.

He was able to do 90% of this without spending any money.  Almost all
the material were building scraps from the local landfill.   At the
same time he had collected wire, but did not have enough to send three
conductors up the mountain.  He actually had barely enough for one
conductor.  So, against the advise of everybody we talked to he ran
just a single wire.  He tied both the ground and the neutral together
at the cabin, and we drove a couple of grounding rods deep into the
ground.  It won't work said our uncle the electrician.

Well not only did it work, but he could actually run power tools off
that one wimpy little wire strung 1/2 mile from tree to tree with
about 20 or so splices.


On Nov 25, 2009, at 10:33 AM, EVDL Administrator wrote:

> Don't do it!  To cut to the chase, the NEC prohibits using the
> grounding
> system of your house as a regular conductor.  It's reserved for a
> safety
> ground.



------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 08:05:31 -0800 (PST)
From: Steven Ciciora <karmannelectric@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OK you-all create an alternative to the car
	 computer
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <582281.47236.qm@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Unfortunately, it's a non-linear system.  Back when I was into hacking GM ECMs
in the early 90s, the ecms would do things like change the timing until it hears
the knock sensor doing it's thing.  If it doesn't hear the knock sensor, it
assumes it's defective and throws an error code.

I can't see a simple system of just playing back what the sensors previously
recorded working...

- Steven Ciciora

--- On Wed, 11/25/09, Lee Hart <leeahart@...> wrote:

> From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] OK you-all create an alternative to the car computer
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
> Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2009, 8:37 AM
> Cor van de Water wrote:
> > > So leave the whole system with all ECUs intact
> and simulate the ICE
> > > sensor data to let the smarts of the new car
> *assume* that there
> > > still is an engine.
>
> Collin Kidder wrote:
> >? It's an interesting idea. It would somewhat fit
> the KISS principle as
> >? one would not be removing or modifying anything
> but what is
> >? absolutely necessary. However, I fear that each
> car has the potential
> >? to be too different for one solution to work.
>
> I think modelling the engine is a good idea. But you're
> right; it would
> be very difficult if you tried to figure out the codes for
> each and
> every ICE. I think the way to approach it is to make the EV
> computer
> operate as a "data logger", to watch what the ICE does and
> record it.
> Then, after the ICE is removed, the EV computer "plays
> back" these
> recordings so the other computers in the car think the ICE
> is still there.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>






------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 11:05:42 -0500
From: Collin Kidder <collink@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Crazy charging idea
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <4B0D55D6.2030000@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Yeah, and I don't mind that at all. I asked a crazy question which I
knew was pretty crazy and I wanted to know why it would be a bad idea. I
pretty much figured it was and had some idea as to why but people did
bring up a couple of other points I had not thought of plus your initial
reply was informative. So, thanks.

On 11/25/2009 10:28 AM, Roland Wiench wrote:
> When you teach someone how to do something, you just do not say, you do this
> and that and leave it there. You instruct someone in the complete science of
> a system, so they can logical reason why it is done that way.
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John G. Lussmyer"<Cougar@...>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"<ev@...>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 7:10 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Crazy charging idea
>
>
>
>> Hmm, a long reply that is kind-of relevant to the question, but doesn't
>> really answer anything.
>>
>> Yes, you CAN use 1/2 of the 220 line to power your 110 device.
>> BUT DON'T USE THE GROUND LINE.
>> Use the Neutral line as the "return" for the 110 device.
>> This does require a 4 pin plug for your 220 charging, but those are
>> relatively common and quite available.
>>
>>
>> Roland Wiench wrote:
>>
>>> Hello Collin,
>>>
>>> It's been since the 40's when the ground conductor was use as a current
>>> carrying conductor.  The NEC change this method of wiring so there would
>>> be
>>> no continue current flow on the ground wire and grounded enclosures.
>>>
>>> In a 120 volt 2 line transformer we can choose either output lead to be
>>> grounded to a ground rod.  In a 240 volt 3 line transformer we center
>>> tap
>>> half way down the coils of the 240 volt secondary.  We call this the
>>> neutral
>>> wire or sometimes call the common wire.
>>>
>>> This neutral wire is connected to a ground rod at the transformer and to
>>> the
>>> case of a metal case transformer.  This grounding method is use for
>>> lightning protection which shunts most of the lightning to ground.
>>>
>>> In some residential homes in some states, the service wire from the
>>> transformer to the house may be either three wire with a neutral that is
>>> ground again at the first disconnect switch and/or meter base. The
>>> neutral
>>> is again grounded to a ground rod.
>>>
>>> > From this neutral and grounding point, there shall be no other neutral
>>>
>>>> to
>>>>
>>> ground connections and must install a separate ground wire through the
>>> circuits, which now makes it a 4 wire system of two lines, a insulated
>>> neutral wire and neutral bar, a ground wire and un-insulated ground bar
>>> that
>>> self's ground to the panels and all other metal case junction boxes and
>>> devices mountings.
>>>
>>> The ground wire shall only be use to prevent a continuous flow of
>>> current on
>>> a enclosure of a device.  This is a short interrupting current so as to
>>> prevent a shock hazard to anyone. This interrupting time in the new
>>> circuits
>>> breakers will allow you to push in a shorting pin into a receptacle with
>>> your bare fingers, that the pin will not get hot.  I would not recommend
>>> you
>>> try that with a older breaker set.
>>>
>>> Roland
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Collin Kidder"<collink@...>
>>> To:<ev@...>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 5:07 AM
>>> Subject: [EVDL] Crazy charging idea
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> You all may remember how I was asking about using diodes and resistors
>>>> to charge a 12v battery in my EV car. People suggested that I should
>>>> just use a normal battery charger and not try to rig something
>>>> together.
>>>> My potential issue with that was that the car has a dual 110/220
>>>> charger
>>>> so I could not guarantee which voltage would go to the 12v charger.
>>>> I've
>>>> never seen a dual voltage 12v charger so that's a problem. However, I
>>>> got to thinking... In a house (and in a factory too... I checked) 220
>>>> is
>>>> actually delivered as two 110 leads 180 degrees out of phase creating a
>>>> 220 RMS voltage. (I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this by
>>>> now...) So, if I always use the hot lead and the ground pin I will get
>>>> 110 whether I'm using 110 or 220. This will send however many amps the
>>>> little 12v charger takes down the ground wire as long as the charger is
>>>> on. It'll also slightly knock the phases out of balance when using 220.
>>>> That's not a very big deal I don't think. It solves my problem with
>>>> dual
>>>> voltage and prevents me from rednecking a charging solution between my
>>>> DC/DC converter and the 12v battery.
>>>>
>>>> So, does it sound like a stupid idea and will the electrical inspector
>>>> slap my patties and put me in time out?
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>>>> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>>>> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>>>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>>> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>>> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> --
>> John G. Lussmyer   mailto:Cougar@...
>> Electric Vehicle Battery Monitoring Systems, http://www.CasaDelGato.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>



------------------------------

Message: 16
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 11:09:37 -0500
From: Collin Kidder <collink@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Crazy charging idea
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <4B0D56C1.3040706@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

On 11/25/2009 10:33 AM, EVDL Administrator wrote:
> Don't do it!  To cut to the chase, the NEC prohibits using the grounding
> system of your house as a regular conductor.  It's reserved for a safety
> ground.
>

   That's what I figured. I couldn't imagine that it was within NEC
guidelines.
> There's a good safety-related reason for this.  If there were a fault in
> your house wiring - a loose ground connection where an electrician didn't
> properly tighten a wirenut, for example - a portion of the ground system
> would become partly or fully live when you connected your charger.  Any
> other appliance plugged into that part of the system would then become live,
> and could easily shock or electrocute someone.
>
Yes, this is a good point.

> Also, there are some simple practical reasons.  First, this kind of
> connection will trip a GFI because it unbalances the current on the hot and
> neutral conductors.  Second,  in some older houses, the ground conductor may
>

Also potentially a good point if the system were ever used on a GFI
outlet. I hadn't thought of this one.

> drastically undersized (IIRC, at one time a #18 ground was used with #14
> current carrying conductors) or missing altogether.
>

I hadn't thought of this either but I did consider that some houses have
very bad wiring where there is a three prong outlet but no ground
actually in existence.


> What you want is a 120/240 volt input, 12 volt output battery charger.  You
> say you've never seen one, but I found some easily with a web search.  Some
> listed here are under $40.
>
> http://www.batterystuff.com/battery-chargers/12-volt/multi-volt-input/
>

And so the old adage "assume nothing" comes to play. I actually haven't
ever seen one but I shouldn't have assumed that they don't exist just
because I hadn't seen or heard of one.

> Alternatively, you could use a DC:DC converter powered from the traction
> battery, as many other EV hobbyists do.
>

Well, that was my initial consideration but I didn't really want to use
two DC converters. It's a decent way to go though.



------------------------------

Message: 17
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 11:22:23 -0500
From: Collin Kidder <collink@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OK you-all create an alternative to the car
	 computer
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <4B0D59BF.6070704@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Hmm... That does sound like something a car ECM would do... I suppose it
might be possible to snoop in on the conversation to see the general way
that the system works and build up a working understanding of the
system. Then use that knowledge to create a fake ICE engine for the
controls to talk to. But now it's starting to sound less like KISS and
more like "make it as totally complicated and convoluted as possible."
Perhaps this isn't the way to go...

On 11/25/2009 11:05 AM, Steven Ciciora wrote:
> Unfortunately, it's a non-linear system.  Back when I was into hacking GM ECMs
in the early 90s, the ecms would do things like change the timing until it hears
the knock sensor doing it's thing.  If it doesn't hear the knock sensor, it
assumes it's defective and throws an error code.
>
> I can't see a simple system of just playing back what the sensors previously
recorded working...
>
> - Steven Ciciora
>
> --- On Wed, 11/25/09, Lee Hart<leeahart@...>  wrote:
>
>
>> From: Lee Hart<leeahart@...>
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] OK you-all create an alternative to the car computer
>> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"<ev@...>
>> Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2009, 8:37 AM
>> Cor van de Water wrote:
>>
>>>> So leave the whole system with all ECUs intact
>>>>
>> and simulate the ICE
>>
>>>> sensor data to let the smarts of the new car
>>>>
>> *assume* that there
>>
>>>> still is an engine.
>>>>
>> Collin Kidder wrote:
>>
>>>    It's an interesting idea. It would somewhat fit
>>>
>> the KISS principle as
>>
>>>    one would not be removing or modifying anything
>>>
>> but what is
>>
>>>    absolutely necessary. However, I fear that each
>>>
>> car has the potential
>>
>>>    to be too different for one solution to work.
>>>
>> I think modelling the engine is a good idea. But you're
>> right; it would
>> be very difficult if you tried to figure out the codes for
>> each and
>> every ICE. I think the way to approach it is to make the EV
>> computer
>> operate as a "data logger", to watch what the ICE does and
>> record it.
>> Then, after the ICE is removed, the EV computer "plays
>> back" these
>> recordings so the other computers in the car think the ICE
>> is still there.
>> --
>> Ring the bells that still can ring
>> Forget the perfect offering
>> There is a crack in everything
>> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>> --
>> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
>> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>>



------------------------------

Message: 18
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 10:16:17 -0800
From: "Marc Michon" <marc07@...>
Subject: [EVDL] EV motorcycle transcontinental Attempt
To: <ev@...>
Message-ID: <001001ca6dfb$6204c8a0$3206a8c0@workstation>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original

this nut just bought a Brammo Elecric motorcycle in Portland. Oregon
is attempting to ride it back to Georgia
if he makes it your way could you give him a charge?
you can see progress  here
http://www.wednesdaynightdrinkingclub.com/blogs/greasyrider/
If he gets through Oregon coast mountians and Siskyous
may make it



------------------------------

Message: 19
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 13:28:40 -0500
From: Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Crazy charging idea
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <2b4886ce0911251028v69bdcaa8kfbde54db8fd6b18@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

================OK Collin, here is the easy safe way.======================

use a 120 acv charger if it is less than $40 (If more than $40 get one
David suggested.)

If you have 120v. charger then get a "Travelers" Adapter for 250 watts or so
for 220 to 120v
reduction (Like tourists into Europe use...) So plug in with adapter at 220v
sources and without it at 110v sources

  (((( make darn sure you remember to change it over !!! )))

By the by, best choice is the 120/240 charger for $40...

Regards,

  Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
        Phone (863) 289 - 0690
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------\
-----------------------------------------
On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 8:07 AM, Collin Kidder <collink@...> wrote:

> You all may remember how I was asking about using diodes and resistors
> to charge a 12v battery in my EV car. People suggested that I should
> just use a normal battery charger and not try to rig something together.
> My potential issue with that was that the car has a dual 110/220 charger
> so I could not guarantee which voltage would go to the 12v charger. I've
> never seen a dual voltage 12v charger so that's a problem. However, I
> got to thinking... In a house (and in a factory too... I checked) 220 is
> actually delivered as two 110 leads 180 degrees out of phase creating a
> 220 RMS voltage. (I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this by
> now...) So, if I always use the hot lead and the ground pin I will get
> 110 whether I'm using 110 or 220. This will send however many amps the
> little 12v charger takes down the ground wire as long as the charger is
> on. It'll also slightly knock the phases out of balance when using 220.
> That's not a very big deal I don't think. It solves my problem with dual
> voltage and prevents me from rednecking a charging solution between my
> DC/DC converter and the 12v battery.
>
> So, does it sound like a stupid idea and will the electrical inspector
> slap my patties and put me in time out?
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>


--
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Message: 20
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 13:45:10 -0500
From: Collin Kidder <collink@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Crazy charging idea
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <4B0D7B36.50400@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

On 11/25/2009 1:28 PM, Dennis Miles wrote:
> ================OK Collin, here is the easy safe way.======================
>
> use a 120 acv charger if it is less than $40 (If more than $40 get one
> David suggested.)
>
> If you have 120v. charger then get a "Travelers" Adapter for 250 watts or so
> for 220 to 120v
> reduction (Like tourists into Europe use...) So plug in with adapter at 220v
> sources and without it at 110v sources
>
>   (((( make darn sure you remember to change it over !!! )))
>
> By the by, best choice is the 120/240 charger for $40...
>
>

I think that's the best choice too. As soon as he posted the link I
thought "that's my charger!" ;-) It's great that someone knew how to use
google because I seem to have forgotten how...



------------------------------

Message: 21
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 12:16:12 -0700
From: Dave Hymers <dhymers@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV motorcycle transcontinental Attempt
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <ec811c3f0911251116l66df2c15j1ab18f16bd3c5ea8@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

that's awesome :) if a little crazy ...
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Message: 22
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 14:25:22 -0500
From: Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Crazy charging idea
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <2b4886ce0911251125t33893299y53c038f17bd05bba@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

======Collin, here is the "Elegant and Automatic solution..=========
WWW.220converters.COM  (From a GMail ad...)
  Looks like "Nice" stuff.  Anyone using it?
Regards,
   Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
        Phone (863) 289 - 0690
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------\
---------

On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 1:45 PM, Collin Kidder <collink@...> wrote:

> On 11/25/2009 1:28 PM, Dennis Miles wrote:
> > ==========OK Collin, here is the easy safe way.================
> >
> > use a 120 acv charger if it is less than $40 (If more than $40 get one
> > David suggested.)
> >
> > If you have 120v. charger then get a "Travelers" Adapter for 250 watts or
> so
> > for 220 to 120v
> > reduction (Like tourists into Europe use...) So plug in with adapter at
> 220v
> > sources and without it at 110v sources
> >
> >   (((( make darn sure you remember to change it over !!! )))
> >
> > By the by, best choice is the 120/240 charger for $40...
> >
> >
>
> I think that's the best choice too. As soon as he posted the link I
> thought "that's my charger!" ;-) It's great that someone knew how to use
> google because I seem to have forgotten how...
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>


--
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Message: 23
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 11:33:16 -0800
From: Travis Gintz <frodus17@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV motorcycle transcontinental Attempt
To: dhymers@..., Electric Vehicle Discussion List
	 <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <b44c78160911251133l6ae8e0edvd6635089362b3629@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Nathan may seem crazy, but I think he's determined!

Wonder if there could be some exposure for him via the media? (other than
his website). Anyone have connections, this is a serious attempt, probably a
first!

On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Dave Hymers <dhymers@...> wrote:

> that's awesome :) if a little crazy ...
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>
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> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>


--
Travis Gintz
1986 Honda VFR DC conversion
Http://blog.evfr.net/
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Today's Topics:

    1. Re: EV Plug-Connector (Dennis Miles)
    2. Another Itty-Bitty battery for Tesla "S" vehicle by
       Panasonic? (Mark Hanson)
    3. Re: OK you-all create an alternative to the car computer
       (Cor van de Water)
    4. Re: Motor Grinding Noise (Cor van de Water)
    5. Re: OT: mid-90s Nuts&Volts magazine issues will be available
       (Cor van de Water)
    6. Re: OT: Road noise (Cor van de Water)
    7. Re: TIME Article on EV's (Cor van de Water)
    8. Re: LiFePO4s - crossbars to use when connecting 100AH cells?
       (Eduardo Kaftanski)
    9. Re: EV Plug-Connector (storm connors)
   10. Re: EV Plug-Connector (Lock Hughes)
   11. Re: EV Plug-Connector and safety (rodhower@...)
   12. Re: Hopefull answers to "oil crash" (Zeke Yewdall)
   13. Re: Motor Grinding Noise (Stephen Jordan)
   14. Re: EV Plug-Connector and safety (Roger Stockton)
   15. Re: Charger plug/socket (storm connors)
   16. Re: Charger plug/socket, an' Stuff (storm connors)
   17. Re: LiFePO4s - crossbars to use when connecting 100AH cells? (joe)
   18. Re: Charger plug/socket, an' Stuff (joe)
   19. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place - Businessmodel
       discussion... (storm connors)
   20. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place - Businessmodel
       discussion... (Douglas A. Stansfield)
   21. Re: Motor Grinding Noise (dave cover)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:16:37 -0500
From: Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Plug-Connector
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <2b4886ce0911241216sef60f49i15d8b03f976278c7@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 12:46 PM, Douglas A. Stansfield <
Doug@...> wrote:

> Thanks Rush,
>
> I am trying to read the 180 page, Electric Coalition document.  Read about
> 20 pages so far and it is pretty good.  I like most of the comments but not
> all.  Oh well,
>
> Makes me wonder why FEDEX CEO is on board.  I tried over a year ago to get
> them to convert some of their trucks into "hybrids" and they didn't want to
> do any.  Seems strange...an about face.....glad to see it anyway.....
>
> Happy Thanksgiving everyone!!!!
>
>
> Sincerely;
>
> Douglas A. Stansfield
> President
> www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
> 973-875-6276 (office)
> 973-670-9208 (cell)
> 973-440-1619 (fax)
>
> WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
> And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On
> Behalf
> Of Rush
> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 11:37 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Plug-Connector
>
>
> Doug wrote -
>
> > Rush,
> >
> > I tried that link earlier today and the documents tab is empty.  I did
> the
> > best I could to bring people up to speed.
> >
> > Yazaki is building the J1772 and their plug is in UL testing now so I am
> > sure they used the standards in the document I first posted.  It is the
> > most
> > up to date "public" document that we can review, at least that I am aware
> > of.
> >
> > If another document becomes available I will try and remember to post it.
> >
>
> Doug,
>
> The specs on that website are the OLD J1772 Standard  and are NOT the specs
> of the new
> as-yet-unreleased-to-the-public Standard. But since, as you know, Yazaki is
> producing it, the standards have been released to 'certain' individuals.
> The
>
> standard is presently in the 'Balloting Process", as the SAE calls it, and
> when approved, it wil be released.
>
> It has been already been certified by the UL to ONLY 240v/30 amps, not the
> full 50 amps that it the spec 'will' be written for. This is from Coulomb
> tech.
>
> I've gotten some pretty good info at http://teva2.com/J1772.html.
>
> I think what is going to happen is that we will see an adapter box which
> will have electronics in it to supply the necessary handshake signals for
> charging. How much it will cost and what plug can be plugged into it is to
> be seen. Hopefully the plug will not be proprietary.
>
> What I find very interesting is that the Leaf will have a Level 3 input as
> per Paul Scott's article
>
> http://evsandenergy.blogspot.com/2009/11/nissans-leaf-falls-gently-to-earth-
> in.html.
>
> Rush
> Tucson AZ
> www.TEVA2.com
> =============================New Standards, New Adapters =============
>

We will all be building or buying a weather proof box with a 12 in. pigtail
to a J1772 plug and a socket for the venerable 14-50 on the other end.

On the front of the box will be a simple display, 2 or 3 LEDs and 2 or 3
switches so we can know what power is available and tell the J1772 what
power to supply us.

Then set our on-board charger and tell the J1772 to "GO" with the other
switch.

The adapter will let all the older (Older than 2011 perhaps ) EVs power
their chargers at the new outlets.

  I am just still hoping it won't take until 2035 before they spread
beyond Tucson ! (:-))

Regards,

     Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
        Phone (863) 289 - 0690
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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:28:16 -0500
From: Mark Hanson <marke.hanson@...>
Subject: [EVDL] Another Itty-Bitty battery for Tesla "S" vehicle by
	 Panasonic?
To: <ev@...>
Message-ID: <SNT114-W3330830C80AD5FA8274557849D0@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"


Hi,



I saw an article in this month's Current EVents on the new Tesla "S" car that I
ASSumed would be large format LiFePO4 batteries; but Nooo.  8000 itty bitty
batteries from Panasonic.  I guess after selling 700 Roadsters with 6800 small
batteries it's fairly reliable (although I don't know any folk's with >5k miles
on them).  I just can't imagine thousands of *anything* wired up being very
reliable long term.  Guess I've been in electronics for too long :-)



Have a low parts count day,

Mark

_________________________________________________________________
Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star.
http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727::\
T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009
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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:58:01 -0800
From: "Cor van de Water" <CWater@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OK you-all create an alternative to the car
	 computer
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <1E3D081C7B502B4A988F643E604CF963970730@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

So leave the whole system with all ECUs intact and simulate the ICE sensor data
to let the smarts of the new car *assume* that there still is an engine.
You could base the engine sensor data on actual motor data such as RPM
so that together with throttle input, it could even shift correctly....
(If necessary after reprogramming the gearshift ECU)
The shift blank can go to the motor controller.
(the Zilla already accepts this, or it may be the hairball
  and I also saw it on my DCP Raptor)

Kind of like using an XP simulator on a Macintosh to get a Windows app to
work...
Probably easier than rewriting the entire app to use the Mac directly and to
repeat it for each app...
Anybody into developing an "engine simulator box" for EV converters of new cars?
May be just a box with CAN interface and a few sensor inputs for RPM, temp and
such.
Select which virtual engine you want to simulate in SW...
Heck - they probably already have this in every car development lab.
But those likely cost more than a few new cars.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: CWater@...    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: cor_van_de_water@...
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf Of
Mark Farver
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 11:45 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OK you-all create an alternative to the car computer

On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 11:52 AM, Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...> wrote:
> ?I have been "Brought up to Speed" on what I call, "KISEVC" (that is:
> Keep It Simple EV Converters!) A philosophy similar to "KISS" I have
> tried to practice all my life. (Keep It Simple Stupid!)
>
> Here it is "From the Horses Mouth!" :
>
> ?#1. The ABS has its own "Box" so leave it alone.
Generally true... although sometimes it is the source of vehicle speed data and
tire pressure monitoring.  Be careful with it's wheel speed sensors during
disassembly and construction.  If you fault one sometimes you can't clear the
ABS code without the engine computer present and a dealer quality scan tool. 
I've seen vehicles where the ABS system, ECU throttle control and the Dynamic
Stability control module are independent system, but communicate heavily. 
Remove one and the others start throwing codes.

> ?#2. The Airbag System is just the impact sensor and a relay, and the
> Pyrotechnic device in ? ? ? ? ? the bag, so leave all that alone too.

The SRS computer is generally monitoring a few parameters from other vehicle
systems that factor into it's decision making process. Vehicle Speed and
ABS/collision avoidance operation being the most notable ones..  These days the
SRS system is much more sophisticated than an impact sensor and the inflation
system.  There are usually several sensors around the car to measure impact
force, deaccleration parameters, crumple zone effectiveness (measure the
deaccleration of the firewall verses the bumper), passenger seat position and
weight.
This allows the system to choose what bags and pretensioners to fire, and with
different forces and timings.  In general, stay away from yellow wire harnesses
(the SAE standard color) or anything that has yellow banding.  Follow the
correct procedure for safing the system
before working near or disconnecting any SRS system component.   The
SRS system has extensive internal checks, so if the SRS/Airbag light goes out
after startup it's probably good to go.

> ?#3. When removing the ICE any wires going to a ECU box you can cut
> right off, leave the box ? ? ?as it may control the speedometer (Don't
> cut the wire going to the speed sensor or the speedometer won't work!)
> reconnect ground wires to a point near the ECU Box.

Agree (though personally I tend to replace the ECU with one of my own
design.)  Watch out for vehicles where the headlights/signals are run
across/inside the engine harness.  (I curse you GM, and want to thank
Ford/Mazda)

> .#4. Cut the wire to the "Check Motor" light and use it for some other
> function.

Can't do this anymore on many cars.. the check engine light is generally
integrated into the dash, and is activated by the engine computer via messages
on the vehicle bus.  You'll end up with always on check engine light.  And since
they switched to LEDs and sealed instrument clusters its a lot harder to "take
the bulb out."  Same with anti-theft RFID keys too.  The reader is part of the
cluster, but the ECU does all the work.

My latest problem is a fully loaded 2010 Audi, which actually claims on the
sales spec sheet that it  has 3 sophisticated CAN circuits
(buses) for powertrain, passenger comfort and safety and infotainment.
  The computer shifted, dual clutch manual transmission commands the engine to
blank the throttle (inhibit the injectors) whenever its shifting (8ms shift
time!!).  The ABS, ECU and transmission communicate together to control
deacceleration, using a combination of braking and downshifting.  I've just
started, but I suspect it will prove interesting, and maybe impossible.



Mark Farver
REVOLT Custom Electric Vehicles
Austin, TX
Parts store now open: http://www.revoltevc.com/

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------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:58:02 -0800
From: "Cor van de Water" <CWater@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Grinding Noise
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <1E3D081C7B502B4A988F643E604CF963970731@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

a bad bearing will last a while usually before failing and it will start making
a loud humming sound at the right speeds (ever had a car with wheel berings
going bad just before a vacation with a lot of driving? The bearings will hold
for thousands of miles luckily so they can be replaced afterwards if you can
live with their whine)

I wonder is you could have dry seals on bearings or axes - that will also cause
friction and noise that will go away with lubrication. but it typically is not
so much friction that you would notice it in poor coasting.

Commutator and brushes are usually behind a metal grille, unless your motor has
ducting, for example
for air cooling (and as some like to say, to distribute the brush dust through
your whole motor).

Since you have a clutchless setup, over-speeding is not your main concern. It is
lugging and overheating the motor. That can cause fast brush wear (from
overheating) so I suggest to check the brushes and commutator first.
Maybe you just need a mirror to look behind the motor at the brushes?
Shoot pictures if possible, upload them on a website and post a like here -
plenty people know how brushes and commutator *should* look like.

How much current are you routinely pushing through this motor in your driving?

Success,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: CWater@...    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: cor_van_de_water@...
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf Of
Stephen Jordan
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 5:19 PM
To: ev@...
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Grinding Noise


Thanks for the reply.

It's a 94 Saturn, manual transmission, clutch-less.

It took about 5-8 seconds to spin down when I put it in neutral going down a
hill.  I did this because I suspected increased friction as the car also has a
been coasting very poorly.

YES.  The noise was there when I put it in neutral and spun the motor.  And it
would quickly slow down when I released the throttle.

I can't see the commutator or brushes. Not sure what scoring is, but I looked
under the car last night and there was no damage, obvious wear and tear.

Thanks again!


dave cover-2 wrote:
>
> Need some more info. Car? Transmission? Has a clutch?
>
> How long did it take to spin down, 5 seconds or 30?
>
> Did the noise go away when you pressed in the clutch? Put it in
> neutral? Released the clutch in neutral?
>
> Can you see the commutator and brushes? Any scoring?
>
> With the car sitting, in neutral, does the motor make any noise when
> you spin it up?
>
> Dave Cover, with the same motor in my car.
>
> On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 7:47 PM, Stephen Jordan <sjjordan@...>
> wrote:
>>
>> On my way in to work today, there was a noise coming from the motor
>> that has me concerned. It changes tones (sometimes almost a grind,
>> sometimes more a high-pitched squeal) but was loud and continuous on
>> my ride home. ?The noise disappeared when i threw it into neutral at
>> 25mi/hr and I could hear the motor spin down to a halt (suggesting
>> significant friction). I've taken good care of the motor, never
>> letting it overspin.
>>
>> Any ideas what I can do? ?I'm in medical school and just started a
>> very intensive rotation today (working 12 hrs/day) so any quick-fixes
>> would be appreciated!
>>
>> The motor is a Advanced CD FB-4001A Double Shaft Series Wound DC from
>> EV of America and is about 15 months old.
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://n4.nabble.com/Motor-Grinding-Noise-tp786463p786463.html
>> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive
>> at Nabble.com.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> http://www.evalbum.com/2149
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
>

--
View this message in context:
http://n4.nabble.com/Motor-Grinding-Noise-tp786463p786732.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.

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------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:58:02 -0800
From: "Cor van de Water" <CWater@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT: mid-90s Nuts&Volts magazine issues will be
	 available
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <1E3D081C7B502B4A988F643E604CF963970732@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

There are plenty of hills where Shari (and EA) is in the Santa Cruz
mountains so gear shifting is not a luxury there.
Interestingly also my technical introduction to EVs was through the
articles of Shari in Home Power magazine when that was a free
downloadable monthly (increased the monthly phone bill downloading it
over dial-up from The Netherlands). I recently picked up a stack of the
paper magazines but have no longer time to go through them. I still have
a few CDs worth of downloads until the mag became subsciption-only.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: CWater@...    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: cor_van_de_water@...
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On
Behalf Of Chuck Hursch
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 4:02 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] OT: mid-90s Nuts&Volts magazine issues will be available

I am in the process of imaging my old Nuts&Volts magazines from a
subscription I had in the mid-90s.  Getting the interesting articles
onto the computer and tossing the rest.  There are lots of articles on
BASIC Stamps and other such ilk that I see mentioned on the EVDL, albeit
with a 90s flavor.  It's a good education for me to look at these old
dusty back issues, and relate it to what I see on the EVDL.  I even
re-read an old article by ElectroAutomotive's Shari Prange on gear
shifting in an EV, picturing a VoltsRabbit schussing up a road
somewhere.  At any rate, if anyone would be interested in these old N&V
issues from the 1995/1996 era, please contact me off-list.  It's going
to take me a few weeks/months to do 'em all, but if I know someone is
interested in having them, I won't toss them out as I go, and I will
contact the person once done.  At printed-matter postage rates, it may
not cost that much to ship them, and the mags themselves I'll let go for
free.

Chuck

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------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:58:02 -0800
From: "Cor van de Water" <CWater@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT: Road noise
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <1E3D081C7B502B4A988F643E604CF963970733@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

An EV can be much quieter than with ICE, so it may
be just more noticeable than before.
I certainly did not like my gearbox noise in my EV
truck, but in other GM vehicles that noise and
vibration is camouflaged by the rattling and coughing ICE.

I wish you many smiling miles in your EV Vue!

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: CWater@...    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: cor_van_de_water@...
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On
Behalf Of gary
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 5:07 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT: Road noise

- rubber mount battery box (probably too hard to do after installation)
- use soundproofing foam (google search)

Gary Krysztopik
ZWheelz, LLC - www.ZWheelz.com
Alamo City Electric Auto Association - www.aceaa.org blog -
http://voices.mysanantonio.com/drive_electric_san_antonio/
San Antonio, TX



Barry Oppenheim wrote:
> I've been using by Saturn Vue EV since March and I'd like some input
> regarding road noise.  I seem to be getting a lot of road noise
emanating
> from the rear wheel wells.
>
> When I put the battery box in the cargo bay of the Vue I removed a
thin
> layer of padding between the body sheet metal and trim.  After putting
in
> the battery box I covered it with carpet and stuffed carpet padding
into the
> cavities over the wheel wells.  Although this reduces the noise it
does not
> eliminate it.  I almost think that my battery box is acting as a giant
> amplifier for the road noise from the rear.
>
> Thoughts,
>
> Barry Oppenheim
> New Hope, PA
> www.JustAnotherEVConversion.blogspot.com
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>

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------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:58:02 -0800
From: "Cor van de Water" <CWater@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] TIME Article on EV's
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <1E3D081C7B502B4A988F643E604CF963970734@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dennis,
Nobody transports 0.7MW at 220V if they can avoid it.
Look in your neighborhood. Do you see hundreds of
strands of 2/0 cable hung on poles?
No, the power company uses a medium voltage line
to transport the power at a high voltage at low current.

Now before you say that is dangerous - for many decades
everyone had many boxes with upwards of 25,000 Volts in
their house and very few people had problems with that.
They just switched on the tube and watched.
The 53kWh in 5 mins at that voltage is only about 25 Amp,
you can easily and very safely fit a HV cable for that
in a hose much thinner than a regular gas nozzle hose.
(For an optimized design on cable diameter, you'd
probably use 3-phase which means only 1/3 current in each
cable.)
Even at your unrealistic low 220V level the current would
drop to about 1000A in a 3-phase system which current seems
to flow well though a 2/0 cable as used by most EV converters.
You'd probably need to cool it but that is nothing new,
I think it was the Magnecharger which also had water-cooling
in its charger paddle or receptacle to avoid overheating.
One bundle of 3x 2/0 cable is clumsy but not much more than
today's fuel nozzle and hose.

I would *love* to hear of a charging station with the
problems you mention where they have 16 stations charging
simultaneously. It means that we have finally transitioned.
Solving those problems is just ordinary design work and
century-old technology, nothing new needs to be invented to
do it today. The electricity grid can take it, so the
infrastructure is ready until there is a *significant*
percentage of EVs, then things may start shifting.
But that means *tens* of *millions* EVs on the road.

I agree that (slower) charging at home is preferred for
many reasons, but there may still be a market for fast
charging on the go, just like that there is almost no
airport without a paid wireless internet service.
You'd probably pay quite a bit more for the service than
charging at home but if you need to go, you will gladly
pay instead of waiting a few hours or staying overnight.

Even if the charging station is capable of charging 16 EVs
all at the same time, does not mean that they take that
power directly from the grid. Grid connection power is
costly and peak load even costlier, so it will pay for itself
to have a load leveling battery (or flywheel for that matter)
onsite so that the load on the grid is no more than the
agreed rate, probably about 1/3 of the peak.
In many industries this is known as "oversubscription" and it
is almost never noticeable when done correctly, unless you
happen to monitor your maximum bandwidth routinely or you are
the one being bumped from a flight.
Probably you still need a few (2 or 3) Megawatts but at the
same medium voltage that translates into a few tens of Amps
only at 3-phase so nothing serious that cannot be handled
in any average town or city.

If the local grid is unreliable (as in some areas of the world
including USA) then they may install a backup diesel generator
as you see in many industrial parks and at every hospital.
(I know, not a good thing for an EV economy, but you could
replace them with solar/wind/water/whatever where applicable)
Or they could try to harvest the difference between the low
night tariff and the day tariff for electricity by installing
a hugh (probably submarine battery size) backup pack.
Let's see how large it needs to be and if they can make
money with that operation:
Let us assume that the fast-charging "gas" station is doing well
so it is continuously busy and using 2 MW for 8 hours a day
and recharges that energy at night.
(In practice the load will vary during say a 15 hour day, so
for simplicity I put the half loads together in half the time)
16MWh would require a pack - I think I saw a submarine
battery spec at 8000Ah - of 1000 cells minimum at 2V.
Presuming they want the pack to last it will likely be closer
to 2000 cells. If they pay the same price of about $100 per
kWh for lead-acids that we do then the price of this pack is
$3,200,000.
If the difference in price between day and night is 5c per kWh
then they save 16MWh * 0.05/kWh = $800 per day. They will earn
the pack investment back in 4,000 days or about 11 years, but
this is assuming that it is only there to displace the day
tariff with night tariff.
The power company might make a deal with them to install this
pack because it may offload their grid enough to lower the
investments that the power company need to do.
Or the "gas" station may sell power at midday peak rates to
the electricity company when the local grid overloads and
earn much more than $800 a day.
And the "gas" station does not suffer from power outages.
Or I may have taken the wrong values and the picture is
entirely different. Or a grant or incentive is awarded to
provide de-centralized grid backup and the battery bank is
paid for with government money....
And the fast-charge station may be able to sell its CO2
certificates for good money.... but that has nothing to do
with the backup, only with the energy supplied to zero
emissions vehicles.

BTW - I did not hear an *enormous* advantage of the home
charging by 80% of the people... That is that 80% of the
smelly and dangerous gas stations will disappear from our
living areas and the remaining 20% will be able to convert
to deliver clean fuel. No more dangerous tanker truck
transports of a highly flammable fuel next to our homes,
no more fuel depots where an accident means a catastrophe.
And the list goes on...
Wow. Aren't you glad that the future is electric!

Any more 'problems' that an EE can easily solve that the
Time article tried to create?

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: CWater@...    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: cor_van_de_water@...
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On
Behalf Of Dennis Miles
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 8:31 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] TIME Article on EV's

On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 6:25 AM, Evan Tuer <evan.tuer@...> wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 8:30 PM, Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...>
> wrote:
>
> >  #4, Fast charging is a marketing myth, a five minute recharge would

> > require a direct line to Niagra Falls or your  regional nuclear
plant.
>
> It's never a good idea to exaggerate and say things can never be done
> if they are technically feasible, even if you think it's not
> worthwhile for some reason.
>
> For example: a 20kWh battery of 400V.  That's good for 75 miles of
> highway driving.
> Recharging 80% within 5 minutes would require:
>
> (20000 * .8) / 400 = 40A for 1 hour or 480A for 5 minutes, call that
200kW.
>
> Larger commercial premises have supplies which can fulfill that as
> standard.
>
> Connectors and cables which can handle this current and voltage for 5
> minutes are nothing special either.
>
> You'd need to use the best batteries currently available to accept a
> 10C charge rate, but it's far from impossible.
>
> ===========My math assumptions were a little different than
> yours========
>

I'm driving 200 miles ( Proven reasonable range by Tesla Drivers.) then
recharging in five minutes to ioo% full requires 53 KWh and if our
charger is 90 % efficient a five minute charge from a 220 AC V. source
requires 3200 Amperes. Or enough to supply a housing development of 32
to 50 homes...And the convenience store next to the Interstate where I
sometimes buy Gasoline has 16 pumps all capable of full flow at the same
time. An equavilent EV recharger would require the supply suitable of a
small town with 800 homes.
Also the plug in cable would be 32 strands of 2/0 cable or an
alternative.
I admit it just takes a medium size substation and not Niagra Falls full
output. But charging at home in six hours takes only 44 A. so it could
be handled with a 50 A. rated "Range Outlet" or charging in 12 hours
takes 22 A. so that works with a 30 A. "Dryer Outlet."
You are correct, it is not "Impossible," however I feel it is far from
likely.  (:-))

Regards,
     Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
        Phone (863) 289 - 0690
"We provide Mentoring, Small Group Instruction, and Hands-On training
for the EV Technicians: Building, Converting, Repairing, and Servicing
the Electric Vehicles of Today, and the Future."
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Message: 8
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:39:33 +0000
From: "Eduardo Kaftanski" <ekaftan@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4s - crossbars to use when connecting 100AH
	 cells?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	
<611871609-1259098660-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-493741921-@bda203\
.bisx.produk.on.blackberry>

Content-Type: text/plain


I live in Chile, were around half of the worlds copper is mined and exported.

Down here exposed lines are replaced by aluminium with a copper center after
they steal them.

Aluminum is much cheaper and is not that easily reduced by thieves.



Eduardo Kaftanski
ekaftan@...
eduardo@...

-----Original Message-----
From: "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:05:39
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<ev@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4s - crossbars to use when connecting 100AH cells?


----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <leeahart@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4s - crossbars to use when connecting 100AH cells?


> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
>> Lee,
>>
>> Why is aluminum used almost exclusively on standard 200 A residential
>> electrical service cables and load center terminals if it has such
>> poor properties?
>
> Because it's cheap. Cheap trumps everything else. Copper is better in
> every other respect, except that it costs more.
>
>   Granted it is less than "ideal", but I wouldn't call
>> it a "poor choice".  As long as you use anti-oxidant and torque you
>> terminals, its a reasonable choice.
>
> Aluminum has a poor track record for fixed indoor wiring. In a vehicle
> with its vibration, temperature cycling, and high peak currents, I
> suspect you will find its reliability is even worse.
>
> Now if you have enough time money to spend on special tools and
> techniques, and do enough testing to be sure you solutions really work,
> maybe aluminum wiring can be made to work. But what are the chances that
> any of this will be done for a home builder or a small EV start-up
> manufacturer?

    Damn little! I feel "Why Bother?"Go Copper in yur EV,Buy, PAY up, you
will be happier down the road! IF you sell yur stuff, you can't "afford " to
do Aluminum?

       Bob. One-car-a-year production<g>?
> --
> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

_______________________________________________
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------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 17:58:48 -0500
From: storm connors <stormconnors@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Plug-Connector
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <f7ed9f6c0911241458s5bb969d4xbcddb957e72510a2@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I'm with you, Jon. But I am sure if there are lawyers and money to be
made the system will be made as expensive and complicated as possible
in the name of SAFETY.

We justify all sorts of crap in the name of safety. It is so hard to
put forth any rational argument when the reply is "in 1938 someone was
killed because ...." How many layers of "safety" devices on the modern
automobile? It's a wonder anyone survived the Model T!

It is surprising that we are still allowed to plug in a toaster.

On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 2:53 PM, Jon Glauser <jonglauser@...> wrote:
> Thats pretty cool to see them so supportive of and prepared for EVs.
>
> It seems to me as though all the power companies are looking at
> special equipment to charge EVs. But mot all of us have been using the
> same plugs our appliances use. I'm worried they will make it illegal
> to charge EVs with an extension cord somehow. I'm quite happy with my
> 25' cord and 20A outlet, and I'm not excited to have to buy a $1000
> meter/base/cable/connector.
>
>
> -Jon Glauser
> http://jonglauser.blogspot.com
> http://www.evalbum.com/555
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
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>
>



--
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1059
http://stormselectric.blogspot.com/
Storm



------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:02:32 -0800 (PST)
From: Lock Hughes <lockhughes@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Plug-Connector
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <890394.21903.qm@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Hear Hear!

--- On Tue, 11/24/09, storm connors <stormconnors@...> wrote:

> From: storm connors <stormconnors@...>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Plug-Connector
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
> Received: Tuesday, November 24, 2009, 5:58 PM
> I'm with you, Jon. But I am sure if
> there are lawyers and money to be
> made the system will be made as expensive and complicated
> as possible
> in the name of SAFETY.
>
> We justify all sorts of crap in the name of safety. It is
> so hard to
> put forth any rational argument when the reply is "in 1938
> someone was
> killed because ...." How many layers of "safety" devices on
> the modern
> automobile? It's a wonder anyone survived the Model T!
>
> It is surprising that we are still allowed to plug in a
> toaster.
>
> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 2:53 PM, Jon Glauser <jonglauser@...>
> wrote:
> > Thats pretty cool to see them so supportive of and
> prepared for EVs.
> >
> > It seems to me as though all the power companies are
> looking at
> > special equipment to charge EVs. But mot all of us
> have been using the
> > same plugs our appliances use. I'm worried they will
> make it illegal
> > to charge EVs with an extension cord somehow. I'm
> quite happy with my
> > 25' cord and 20A outlet, and I'm not excited to have
> to buy a $1000
> > meter/base/cable/connector.
> >
> >
> > -Jon Glauser


       __________________________________________________________________
Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr!

http://www.flickr.com/gift/



------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:54:30 -0800 (PST)
From: rodhower@...
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Plug-Connector and safety
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <29437.35796.qm@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Kind of ironic?
http://www.soyouwanna.com/site/toptens/accidents/accidentsfull.html
"
4. THE MOST COMMON CAUSE OF ACCIDENTAL DEATH

1. Motor vehicle crashes
Deaths per year: 43,200

The winner, by a ridiculously huge (and ever-increasing) margin is: death by car
wreck. Head on collision, sideswipe, single-vehicle smash-up, full car rollover,
pedestrian takedown, choking on own carsick vomit, spontaneous combustion-the
fun never stops for car owners. Try air travel instead; it's much safer. Do you
see it anywhere on this list?
"
I guess it would be safer to walk, but then again you may be run over by a car
:-)
And for EV content, how many deaths have you heard about regarding plugging in
an EV?  You many say there are very few EV's on the road, but there are hundreds
of thousands not on the road, golf carts, forklifts, utility vehicles etc.


--- On Tue, 11/24/09, Lock Hughes <lockhughes@...> wrote:

> From: Lock Hughes <lockhughes@...>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Plug-Connector
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
> Date: Tuesday, November 24, 2009, 6:02 PM
> Hear Hear!
>
> --- On Tue, 11/24/09, storm connors <stormconnors@...>
> wrote:
>
> > From: storm connors <stormconnors@...>
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Plug-Connector
> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
> > Received: Tuesday, November 24, 2009, 5:58 PM
> > I'm with you, Jon. But I am sure if
> > there are lawyers and money to be
> > made the system will be made as expensive and
> complicated
> > as possible
> > in the name of SAFETY.
> >
> > We justify all sorts of crap in the name of safety. It
> is
> > so hard to
> > put forth any rational argument when the reply is "in
> 1938
> > someone was
> > killed because ...." How many layers of "safety"
> devices on
> > the modern
> > automobile? It's a wonder anyone survived the Model
> T!
> >
> > It is surprising that we are still allowed to plug in
> a
> > toaster.
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 2:53 PM, Jon Glauser <jonglauser@...>
> > wrote:
> > > Thats pretty cool to see them so supportive of
> and
> > prepared for EVs.
> > >
> > > It seems to me as though all the power companies
> are
> > looking at
> > > special equipment to charge EVs. But mot all of
> us
> > have been using the
> > > same plugs our appliances use. I'm worried they
> will
> > make it illegal
> > > to charge EVs with an extension cord somehow.
> I'm
> > quite happy with my
> > > 25' cord and 20A outlet, and I'm not excited to
> have
> > to buy a $1000
> > > meter/base/cable/connector.
> > >
> > >
> > > -Jon Glauser
>
>
> ? ? ?
> __________________________________________________________________
> Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr!
>
> http://www.flickr.com/gift/
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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>



------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 17:33:43 -0700
From: Zeke Yewdall <zyewdall@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hopefull answers to "oil crash"
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <f446b2df0911241633g21e0f0bal907079a3faec54dc@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

This is getting quite off topic... but...

Unisolar has been around for about 10 years making commercially available
product.  About 30 to 40% the efficiency of crystalline silicon solar, and
over the last 10 years, they've been running just a tad higher cost -- not
alot higher, but a little.  They are really nice for building integrated
applications, if you have the room -- laminating them to metal roofing, etc,
and vandalism prone applications -- fairly unbreakable.  I saw an array that
had blown off a roof (due to an incompetent subcontractor -- toggle bolted
it to a currugated metal roof on a shed) and landed on some boulders, and
the panels were quite dented instead of being flat any more, but still
worked fine.

Z

On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 10:13 AM, Rick Beebe <rick@...> wrote:

>
>
> Stan's current technology is thin-film solar panels. They print them on
> what looks like a printing press and they can be applied directly to
> things like metal roofing. They're not quite as efficient as
> conventional solar panels, but they _should_ be a lot less expensive and
> you should be able to cover more of the roof with them. The new company
> is United Solar Ovonic, www.uni-solar.com
>
>
>
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Message: 13
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 16:37:30 -0800 (PST)
From: Stephen Jordan <sjjordan@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Grinding Noise
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <1259109450615-787284.post@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


I posted some pictures online including a recording of the motor noise.
(motor only revs to a few hundred rpm). High res images are available if you
click the links at the bottom.

http://web.me.com/sjjordan/Motor

As far as I could tell, everything looked good. Nothing looked burnt or
abnormal.  I'm not sure there's much else I can do without taking off the
motor.  What kind of lubrication could I try and where do I put it?

I usually put about 150A through the motor, but live in Alabama, which has
lots of hills. It's common for the motor to pull 200A routinely climbing a
hill.  My daily commute is 22mi and has a few hills.

Thanks again for all your help guys! This forum is fantastic.


a bad bearing will last a while usually before failing and it will start
making a loud humming sound at the right speeds (ever had a car with wheel
berings going bad just before a vacation with a lot of driving? The bearings
will hold for thousands of miles luckily so they can be replaced afterwards
if you can live with their whine)

I wonder is you could have dry seals on bearings or axes - that will also
cause friction and noise that will go away with lubrication. but it
typically is not so much friction that you would notice it in poor coasting.

Commutator and brushes are usually behind a metal grille, unless your motor
has ducting, for example
for air cooling (and as some like to say, to distribute the brush dust
through your whole motor).

Since you have a clutchless setup, over-speeding is not your main concern.
It is lugging and overheating the motor. That can cause fast brush wear
(from overheating) so I suggest to check the brushes and commutator first.
Maybe you just need a mirror to look behind the motor at the brushes?
Shoot pictures if possible, upload them on a website and post a like here -
plenty people know how brushes and commutator *should* look like.

How much current are you routinely pushing through this motor in your
driving?

Success,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: CWater@...    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: cor_van_de_water@...
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
Of Stephen Jordan
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 5:19 PM
To: ev@...
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Grinding Noise


Thanks for the reply.

It's a 94 Saturn, manual transmission, clutch-less.

It took about 5-8 seconds to spin down when I put it in neutral going down a
hill.  I did this because I suspected increased friction as the car also has
a been coasting very poorly.

YES.  The noise was there when I put it in neutral and spun the motor.  And
it would quickly slow down when I released the throttle.

I can't see the commutator or brushes. Not sure what scoring is, but I
looked under the car last night and there was no damage, obvious wear and
tear.

Thanks again!


--
View this message in context:
http://n4.nabble.com/Motor-Grinding-Noise-tp786463p787284.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.



------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 16:49:15 -0800
From: Roger Stockton <rstockton@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Plug-Connector and safety
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <706F54AA6AA33D48AD2CDA168A1E35CF2A3D444496@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

rodhower@... wrote:

> And for EV content, how many deaths
> have you heard about regarding plugging in an EV?  You many
> say there are very few EV's on the road, but there are
> hundreds of thousands not on the road, golf carts, forklifts,
> utility vehicles etc.

Perhaps not the best comparison for the point you wish to make...

A large fraction of these use a low-voltage DC connection that is isolated from
the AC grid/earth between an off-board charger and the vehicle to charge.  This
connection is provided by an application-specific connector system that often
includes features that prevent contact arcing on connection/disconnection.  The
remainder use onboard chargers that (in North America) plug into 120VAC to
charge.

As I understand it, nobody is preventing on-road EVs from plugging into 120VAC
to charge using whatever connector system they choose; the issue has to do with
the restrictions Article 625 places on the connector systems that may be used
(in the US) for connecting 240VAC to an EV (level 2 charging).

I think a better example for the point you want to make is the (presumably) few
deaths/injuries that are associated with the large numbers of North American
RVers plugging/unplugging their rigs from 120VAC and 240VAC outdoors in the same
weather and using the same connectors as hobbiest EVers do.

Cheers,

Roger.



------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:46:29 -0500
From: storm connors <stormconnors@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <f7ed9f6c0911241846w5c126b10mdb3e75cbb651e3cf@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

What is wrong with using the 240v plug that looks like a standard 120v
with a blade turned sideways? If you drive away it pulls out.

On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 2:37 PM, John G. Lussmyer
<Cougar@...> wrote:
> EVDL Administrator wrote:
>> Yes, there are other ways to prevent that problem, but this one struck me as
>> a pretty cool one. ?When you key on the EV's power, it automagically ejects
>> the charging plug.
>>
> I just use the Zilla plug-in feature to detect the Gas Cap door is open.
> Car won't move while it's plugged in - even if no power is provided.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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>
>



--
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1059
http://stormselectric.blogspot.com/
Storm



------------------------------

Message: 16
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:56:39 -0500
From: storm connors <stormconnors@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket, an' Stuff
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <f7ed9f6c0911241856m60b9cbb6vbbd69fd9f3009982@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I tried the replace the fuel filler with a connector thing and while
it is cute, it sure doesn't seem as practical as a connection at the
front of the vehicle. Fuel fillers are always on the wrong side and
with the charger under the hood wiring to the fuel filler is awkward
and adds voltage drop. So besides being a hassle to use and install,
what are the other advantages?

On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 1:22 PM, joe <joe@...> wrote:
> I did that on the Mustang, Bob - used a 3" x 1-1/2" electrical reducing
> washer, and mounted the flanged inlet (that's what the industry calls them
> buggers you were thinking about!) on it, ?cut off ?the filler pipe behind
> the flange and mounted the whole thing back where it was before, where the
> gas cap twists on.
>
> When I get my website updated (sometime this winter hopefully!), I'll post
> pictures of everything that I did on the Mustang. In the meantime, if anyone
> wants me to email them pictures offlist, I'll be glad to do that.
>
> Joseph H. Strubhar
>
> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>
> E-mail: joe@...
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 7:35 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket, an' Stuff
>
>
>> ?Hi EVerybody;
>>
>> ? While digging through my EV junque stuff, I found a GREAT old socket. I
>> put it to use on Mike O's S-10, my signiture plug-in-gas-filler setup. Was
>> thinking" Wonder IF they STILL make these things? It 's a round recessed
>> plug, in a sorta cup, with two ears for a bolt on each side to hold it in.
>> Behind it has setscrews to attach yur hot wires and ground. I THINK it
>> came
>> from a parted out EFP rig, about 35 YEARS ago. All I needed was a flat
>> plate
>> mounted to the filler hole and the plug was recessed, already! No having
>> to
>> hunt down JUST the right size small mixer bowl, or feeding S.S. bowl to
>> mount a male plug on.
>>
>> ? Just thought I'd bring it up, since we're into a plug diss-cussion theme
>> here?
>>
>> ? ? Other Shit; Mike is just gunna get his tags as a Stock S-10, gas
>> powered, so we can DRIVE with a free consience. Deal with the "Electric
>> Issue" when he gets his notice that he hasta get "Smogged" It WILL be a
>> grace period of several months? Until He'll hafta "Fess up" that the S-10
>> is
>> ELECTYRIC. soo He'll have some test and tune, or tul the truk gets USED to
>> him, or is it the OTHER way around?We want to see it go down the road, or
>> Woo Hoo! ANOTHER EV hits the Road!Or I've met my Non G.M . threatening
>> one-a-year production rate!
>>
>> ? ?Seeya
>>
>> ? ? Bob, ? MORE below
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Dennis Miles" <dmiles33810@...>
>> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
>> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 9:49 AM
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket
>>
>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 7:27 AM, Andrew Wood <ajwood@...> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Douglas, Dennis
>>>>
>>>> I was meaning to go on the EV body itself. ?That one on Amazon is the
>>>> sort of thing, but is there a better range of them somewhere? ?WHat
>>>> about inductive ones?
>>>>
>>>> Andrew
>>
>> ? ?Andrew? Aren't you in the UK? I'll guess that UK has a WHOLE different
>> Code setup than here in the Colonies? You just DON'T do 120 volts? ALL
>> home
>> stuff in UK and PROBABLY Europe is nice, handy 240 volts fuzed for 13
>> amps.
>> THIS, I think would be simplifying the whole wiring question? You get used
>> to lottsa 240 volts stuff around the house? Radio, Electric Blanket,
>> toothbrush, cell fone charger, etc?
>>
>> ? ? Bob
>>>> =======================EV side is a different Puppy..================
>>>>
>>>
>>> Because the "Electrical Code" treats the EV's Charger as an appliance.
>>>
>>> I would send you shopping at the RV or Yacht supply stores, they have
>>> reliable equipment proven in years of use.
>>>
>>> The Right choice is dependent upon the input of your Charger; ?110, or
>>> 115,
>>> or 120 or 208, 220, or 240 ACV. And at what current; 10 to 50 AC Amps?
>>> These will determine how big the conductors have to be and how many wires
>>> are in the cable sheath. Are you using different cables for 120v. at 12A.
>>> for Opportunity Charging versus 208V. at 24A for at home? ?Or just an
>>> "Adapter" with plug and jack attached to a foot long piece of cable, for
>>> 120v. and don't use it for 208V. at home. Also how long of a cable will
>>> you
>>> need?
>>>
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?<<WHat about inductive ones?>> you
>>> asked.
>>>
>>> The Inductive couplings require Expensive Electronic "Adapters" at the
>>> park
>>> and charge location and in the EV because it is very inefficient at 50 or
>>> 60
>>> Hertz. Also It isn't portable in its present form.
>>
>> ? Or AFFORDABLE. You just KNOW that, likr batteries for portable tool NO
>> two will be created equil!
>>
>>> Have you asked the members at the local EV club? How about at a nearby RV
>>> Supply for their recommendations? ?The $ 300,000 Bus Conversion RV owners
>>> are likely to have an elegant solution.
>>
>> ? I took the chord by the plug and just set "MY" standard as a 14-50 NEMA
>> 240 volt plug, installed on MY charge station, on the house wall, by the E
>> service drop.AND a 120 volt wall plug like ALL over my house and garage.
>> The
>> one we have for about 100 years! That they aren't convenient to parking
>> areas is an ongoing issue? ?HowEVer I WOULD like to see the RV 240 volt
>> plug
>> adapted as THE EV standard, however, as Jack Gretta used to say;"
>> Standard??
>> WHICH one would ya like?" I BUILT it ,IF they will come? A variation of
>> "IF
>> you Build it, they will Come" A Tesla? In Corrupticut? It's possable?A Rav
>> or Mini? Cars with SERIOUS ranges.
>>
>>> There are many solutions you will have to decide which is best for you.
>>>
>>> I want something simple and secure, so I don't have to sit there on a
>>> folding chair with a shotgun in my lap to keep away the "Copper Thieves."
>>> My
>>> solution is; I don't put a connector on the EV, I run the wire thru a
>>> grommet lined hole under the fuel door, and clamp it on inside.
>>>
>>> Then when I unplug, ?I just push the wire inside the trunk where it falls
>>> into a plastic bucket (Mostly) and lock the fuel door closed. The next
>>> time
>>> I want to use it I unlock and open the fuel door and pull as much cord as
>>> I
>>> need out. If it seems short I open the trunk and untangle it... ?(This
>>> has
>>> been my solution on my Motor Home since 1998 also.)
>>>
>>> This way some "Low Life " doesn't unplug both ends and take it away a
>>> $275
>>> cord set, to sell!
>>
>> ?This sorta low life MIGHT be scared off by a few" Danger million OHMs"
>> signs. Volts Dolts Ohms Smolms All prety much the same to THEM<G> They
>> drop
>> the hood and run off, especially in Detoilet, Electricity and BIG dogs can
>> work their magic!
>>
>> ? I'm afraid THIS will be an EV issue in our major shitties, er, Citys,
>> The
>> ones that are on the news with nightly drive-by-shootings; Charging in the
>> wondeful urban environment all the hidiously expensive prices of heavy
>> enough 'stench cords, to get a meaningful amount of juice? Maybe for the
>> larcenous parking fees in , say, NYC, you MIGHT get some juice, too?
>>
>>> Good Luck, hope this was Interesting.
>>
>> ? Especially the coming responses?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> ? ?Dennis Miles, ? ?(Director / CEO)
>>> Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
>>> Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
>>> ? ? ? Phone (863) 289 - 0690
>>>
>>> "We provide Mentoring, Small Group Instruction, and Hands-On training
>>> for the EV Technicians: Building, Converting, Repairing, and Servicing
>>> the Electric Vehicles of Today, and the Future."
>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>> URL:
>>>
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20091123/80201d05/attachmen\
t.html
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>>> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>>> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>



--
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1059
http://stormselectric.blogspot.com/
Storm



------------------------------

Message: 17
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 19:17:06 -0800
From: "joe" <joe@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4s - crossbars to use when connecting 100AH
	 cells?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <DE2AA2FBDDF7462185E1593FE72844FC@Sales>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original

Roger, Lee is correct; as an electrical contractor, I won't use aluminum
wire unless I have to for some reason. And I don't use aluminum bussed
loadcenters for the same reason.

Please do not use aluminum bars or connectors in EV's - you will only cause
yourself problems if you do so.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: joe@...


----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Heuckeroth" <rheuckeroth@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 7:34 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4s - crossbars to use when connecting 100AH cells?


> Lee,
>
> Why is aluminum used almost exclusively on standard 200 A residential
> electrical service cables and load center terminals if it has such
> poor properties?  Granted it is less than "ideal", but I wouldn't call
> it a "poor choice".  As long as you use anti-oxidant and torque you
> terminals, its a reasonable choice.  I would also add one more
> recommendation to your suggestions below.  Make sure you use a
> stainless steel wire brush on the contact surface to expose virgin
> material before assembly.  Especially if your aluminum material has
> been laying around oxidizing, or is anodized.
>
>
> On Nov 24, 2009, at 9:33 AM, Lee Hart wrote:
>
>> Rob Trahms wrote:
>>> I was talking with a fellow EV'er over the weekend about the right
>>> crossbar
>>> connectors to use with 100ah prismatics like HiPower or Sky
>>> Energy.  He
>>> showed me some fairly thin looking straps (maybe 1/16" thick x1"x4"
>>> machined
>>> aluminum segments?) that he received with his cells.  We both
>>> agreed these
>>> seemed possibly inadequate for the job of a sustained 100-300A
>>> current draw.
>>> He then showed me some 3/8"x1"x4" machined aluminum bars he was
>>> planning to
>>> use instead.  Those will definitely work, and might qualify as
>>> 'overkill'.
>>
>> Aluminum strikes me as a poor choice for an electrical connector.
>> There
>> are plenty of examples of what can go wrong. If one really must use
>> aluminum, special techniques are needed to improve reliability.
>>
>> Aluminum has three bad features. 1) It forms a hard insulating oxide
>> coating on contact with air. 2) It cold flows under pressure. 3) It
>> has
>> a large expansion coefficient with temperature.
>>
>> Suppose you simply clamp two pieces of aluminum together with a bolt.
>> The oxide layer on the parts means only a tiny portion of the apparent
>> surface area is actually making contact. When you run high current, it
>> heats up. The aluminum expands. The bolt won't "give", so the aluminum
>> extrudes out the sides to relieve the pressure.
>>
>> When the connection cools, the aluminum shrinks. Now the connection is
>> looser. Air gets in, and further oxidizes the surfaces, worsening the
>> connection. On the next high current cycle, it gets hotter, flows some
>> more, shrinks again, oxidizes some more, etc. This process continues
>> until the connection fails.
>>
>> Since aluminum has a low melting point and burns, the failure can be
>> spectacular. Arcs, fires, flowing molten metal, etc.
>>
>> Here are some techniques used to make good connections in aluminum:
>>
>>  - Weld the aluminum parts together.
>>  - Plate the aluminum with some other metal that won't corrode.
>>  - Clamp it with extreme pressure, to seriously deform the aluminum
>>    and "cold weld" the parts together.
>>  - Or, clamp it with something that applies spring pressure to
>> maintain
>>    contact pressure despite expansion/contraction and cold flow.
>>  - Apply some kind of grease to exclude air and water from the
>>    connection.
>> --
>> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
>> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
>> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
>> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



------------------------------

Message: 18
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 19:25:51 -0800
From: "joe" <joe@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket, an' Stuff
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <CB55F9D8D9D14F99A03E00B0EA7B7837@Sales>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original

On the Mustang, the filler is in the rear, underneath the trunk lid lock. It
would pull out easily when driven off, but could damage the flanged inlet.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: joe@...


----- Original Message -----
From: "storm connors" <stormconnors@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 6:56 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket, an' Stuff


I tried the replace the fuel filler with a connector thing and while
it is cute, it sure doesn't seem as practical as a connection at the
front of the vehicle. Fuel fillers are always on the wrong side and
with the charger under the hood wiring to the fuel filler is awkward
and adds voltage drop. So besides being a hassle to use and install,
what are the other advantages?

On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 1:22 PM, joe <joe@...> wrote:
> I did that on the Mustang, Bob - used a 3" x 1-1/2" electrical reducing
> washer, and mounted the flanged inlet (that's what the industry calls them
> buggers you were thinking about!) on it, cut off the filler pipe behind
> the flange and mounted the whole thing back where it was before, where the
> gas cap twists on.
>
> When I get my website updated (sometime this winter hopefully!), I'll post
> pictures of everything that I did on the Mustang. In the meantime, if
> anyone
> wants me to email them pictures offlist, I'll be glad to do that.
>
> Joseph H. Strubhar
>
> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>
> E-mail: joe@...
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 7:35 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket, an' Stuff
>
>
>> Hi EVerybody;
>>
>> While digging through my EV junque stuff, I found a GREAT old socket. I
>> put it to use on Mike O's S-10, my signiture plug-in-gas-filler setup.
>> Was
>> thinking" Wonder IF they STILL make these things? It 's a round recessed
>> plug, in a sorta cup, with two ears for a bolt on each side to hold it
>> in.
>> Behind it has setscrews to attach yur hot wires and ground. I THINK it
>> came
>> from a parted out EFP rig, about 35 YEARS ago. All I needed was a flat
>> plate
>> mounted to the filler hole and the plug was recessed, already! No having
>> to
>> hunt down JUST the right size small mixer bowl, or feeding S.S. bowl to
>> mount a male plug on.
>>
>> Just thought I'd bring it up, since we're into a plug diss-cussion theme
>> here?
>>
>> Other Shit; Mike is just gunna get his tags as a Stock S-10, gas
>> powered, so we can DRIVE with a free consience. Deal with the "Electric
>> Issue" when he gets his notice that he hasta get "Smogged" It WILL be a
>> grace period of several months? Until He'll hafta "Fess up" that the S-10
>> is
>> ELECTYRIC. soo He'll have some test and tune, or tul the truk gets USED
>> to
>> him, or is it the OTHER way around?We want to see it go down the road, or
>> Woo Hoo! ANOTHER EV hits the Road!Or I've met my Non G.M . threatening
>> one-a-year production rate!
>>
>> Seeya
>>
>> Bob, MORE below
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Dennis Miles" <dmiles33810@...>
>> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
>> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 9:49 AM
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket
>>
>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 7:27 AM, Andrew Wood <ajwood@...> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Douglas, Dennis
>>>>
>>>> I was meaning to go on the EV body itself. That one on Amazon is the
>>>> sort of thing, but is there a better range of them somewhere? WHat
>>>> about inductive ones?
>>>>
>>>> Andrew
>>
>> Andrew? Aren't you in the UK? I'll guess that UK has a WHOLE different
>> Code setup than here in the Colonies? You just DON'T do 120 volts? ALL
>> home
>> stuff in UK and PROBABLY Europe is nice, handy 240 volts fuzed for 13
>> amps.
>> THIS, I think would be simplifying the whole wiring question? You get
>> used
>> to lottsa 240 volts stuff around the house? Radio, Electric Blanket,
>> toothbrush, cell fone charger, etc?
>>
>> Bob
>>>> =======================EV side is a different Puppy..================
>>>>
>>>
>>> Because the "Electrical Code" treats the EV's Charger as an appliance.
>>>
>>> I would send you shopping at the RV or Yacht supply stores, they have
>>> reliable equipment proven in years of use.
>>>
>>> The Right choice is dependent upon the input of your Charger; 110, or
>>> 115,
>>> or 120 or 208, 220, or 240 ACV. And at what current; 10 to 50 AC Amps?
>>> These will determine how big the conductors have to be and how many
>>> wires
>>> are in the cable sheath. Are you using different cables for 120v. at
>>> 12A.
>>> for Opportunity Charging versus 208V. at 24A for at home? Or just an
>>> "Adapter" with plug and jack attached to a foot long piece of cable, for
>>> 120v. and don't use it for 208V. at home. Also how long of a cable will
>>> you
>>> need?
>>>
>>> <<WHat about inductive ones?>> you
>>> asked.
>>>
>>> The Inductive couplings require Expensive Electronic "Adapters" at the
>>> park
>>> and charge location and in the EV because it is very inefficient at 50
>>> or
>>> 60
>>> Hertz. Also It isn't portable in its present form.
>>
>> Or AFFORDABLE. You just KNOW that, likr batteries for portable tool NO
>> two will be created equil!
>>
>>> Have you asked the members at the local EV club? How about at a nearby
>>> RV
>>> Supply for their recommendations? The $ 300,000 Bus Conversion RV owners
>>> are likely to have an elegant solution.
>>
>> I took the chord by the plug and just set "MY" standard as a 14-50 NEMA
>> 240 volt plug, installed on MY charge station, on the house wall, by the
>> E
>> service drop.AND a 120 volt wall plug like ALL over my house and garage.
>> The
>> one we have for about 100 years! That they aren't convenient to parking
>> areas is an ongoing issue? HowEVer I WOULD like to see the RV 240 volt
>> plug
>> adapted as THE EV standard, however, as Jack Gretta used to say;"
>> Standard??
>> WHICH one would ya like?" I BUILT it ,IF they will come? A variation of
>> "IF
>> you Build it, they will Come" A Tesla? In Corrupticut? It's possable?A
>> Rav
>> or Mini? Cars with SERIOUS ranges.
>>
>>> There are many solutions you will have to decide which is best for you.
>>>
>>> I want something simple and secure, so I don't have to sit there on a
>>> folding chair with a shotgun in my lap to keep away the "Copper
>>> Thieves."
>>> My
>>> solution is; I don't put a connector on the EV, I run the wire thru a
>>> grommet lined hole under the fuel door, and clamp it on inside.
>>>
>>> Then when I unplug, I just push the wire inside the trunk where it falls
>>> into a plastic bucket (Mostly) and lock the fuel door closed. The next
>>> time
>>> I want to use it I unlock and open the fuel door and pull as much cord
>>> as
>>> I
>>> need out. If it seems short I open the trunk and untangle it... (This
>>> has
>>> been my solution on my Motor Home since 1998 also.)
>>>
>>> This way some "Low Life " doesn't unplug both ends and take it away a
>>> $275
>>> cord set, to sell!
>>
>> This sorta low life MIGHT be scared off by a few" Danger million OHMs"
>> signs. Volts Dolts Ohms Smolms All prety much the same to THEM<G> They
>> drop
>> the hood and run off, especially in Detoilet, Electricity and BIG dogs
>> can
>> work their magic!
>>
>> I'm afraid THIS will be an EV issue in our major shitties, er, Citys,
>> The
>> ones that are on the news with nightly drive-by-shootings; Charging in
>> the
>> wondeful urban environment all the hidiously expensive prices of heavy
>> enough 'stench cords, to get a meaningful amount of juice? Maybe for the
>> larcenous parking fees in , say, NYC, you MIGHT get some juice, too?
>>
>>> Good Luck, hope this was Interesting.
>>
>> Especially the coming responses?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Dennis Miles, (Director / CEO)
>>> Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
>>> Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
>>> Phone (863) 289 - 0690
>>>
>>> "We provide Mentoring, Small Group Instruction, and Hands-On training
>>> for the EV Technicians: Building, Converting, Repairing, and Servicing
>>> the Electric Vehicles of Today, and the Future."
>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>> URL:
>>>
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20091123/80201d05/attachmen\
t.html
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>>> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>>> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
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>
>



--
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1059
http://stormselectric.blogspot.com/
Storm

_______________________________________________
General support: http://evdl.org/help/
Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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------------------------------

Message: 19
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 22:31:22 -0500
From: storm connors <stormconnors@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
	 Businessmodel discussion...
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <f7ed9f6c0911241931u34b38d6fybe871c04a7234a36@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I could come up with numbers to prove to my wife that the electric car
saves money. Of course it would be erroneous if I compared apples to
apples. It is easy to find an ICE vehicle for $2000.

If you are honest about it, there is no way to save money with a
conversion. We have to buy conversion parts at retail. If you are
converting to save money, you will be disappointed.

If you want to save money, buy a Kia. If you want to save the planet,
convert. http://www.evalbum.com/1059



On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 2:50 PM, Rodney Cook <r.cook@...> wrote:
> In Seattle, each Puget Sound Energy customer has the option of specifying
> that their power comes from wind turbines. My EV is charged with wind power
> and my investment to make that happen is $12 per month.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
> Of Roger Heuckeroth
> Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 9:25 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
> Businessmodel discussion...
>
>
> On Nov 22, 2009, at 9:57 AM, Jeff Shanab wrote:
>
>> ?I did my conversion and the adding of solar-grid tie to my house at
>> the same time.
>> I make more on the solar than I use in the EV. So we can eliminate the
>> electricity from the cost/mile.
>> Obviously the goal was not to save money right now. the solar costs.
>> My
>> goal was a zero balance sheet on transportation and daily power. I am
>> not there yet.
>
> I was going to post a similar response to this thread. ?I hope to also
> be there one day where I produce all my power needs for my home,
> business and transportation. ?I congratulate you, Jeff, on making
> progress towards that goal. ?Your further along to that goal than I am.
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>



--
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1059
http://stormselectric.blogspot.com/
Storm



------------------------------

Message: 20
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 22:49:02 -0500
From: "Douglas A. Stansfield" <Doug@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
	 Businessmodel discussion...
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <022701ca6d82$3abcfac0$b036f040$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Storm,

You can always go the used route....There are always EV conversions on EBay
almost every week.  Might not find them for $2000 but remember, nobody (for
the most part) buys a car because of cost (unless you are in college).  If
that was the case then everybody would buy Kia's but they don't.  Why
because the car is something that people tend to love.  They want something
that they "feel" good in.  I imagine only accountants actually calculate the
"total cost of ownership" numbers before buying a car.  I know one guy that
on impulse bought a Hummer on vacation!!! Why?  He liked it and wanted
it.....  He sold it when gas went to $4.50/gallon and he took a loss on it.
Doesn't everybody take a loss on the cars they buy?  I have not made money
on any cars that I have ever owned.  They all depreciate and then you either
sell them, donate them, or junk them.  At least I don't borrow money to buy
cars.  Then you are paying interest on something that is losing value....Not
good....


Sincerely;

Douglas A. Stansfield
President
www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
973-875-6276 (office)
973-670-9208 (cell)
973-440-1619 (fax)

WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS







-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
Of storm connors
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 10:31 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
Businessmodel discussion...

I could come up with numbers to prove to my wife that the electric car
saves money. Of course it would be erroneous if I compared apples to
apples. It is easy to find an ICE vehicle for $2000.

If you are honest about it, there is no way to save money with a
conversion. We have to buy conversion parts at retail. If you are
converting to save money, you will be disappointed.

If you want to save money, buy a Kia. If you want to save the planet,
convert. http://www.evalbum.com/1059



On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 2:50 PM, Rodney Cook <r.cook@...> wrote:
> In Seattle, each Puget Sound Energy customer has the option of specifying
> that their power comes from wind turbines. My EV is charged with wind
power
> and my investment to make that happen is $12 per month.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On
Behalf
> Of Roger Heuckeroth
> Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 9:25 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
> Businessmodel discussion...
>
>
> On Nov 22, 2009, at 9:57 AM, Jeff Shanab wrote:
>
>> ?I did my conversion and the adding of solar-grid tie to my house at
>> the same time.
>> I make more on the solar than I use in the EV. So we can eliminate the
>> electricity from the cost/mile.
>> Obviously the goal was not to save money right now. the solar costs.
>> My
>> goal was a zero balance sheet on transportation and daily power. I am
>> not there yet.
>
> I was going to post a similar response to this thread. ?I hope to also
> be there one day where I produce all my power needs for my home,
> business and transportation. ?I congratulate you, Jeff, on making
> progress towards that goal. ?Your further along to that goal than I am.
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>



--
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1059
http://stormselectric.blogspot.com/
Storm

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------------------------------

Message: 21
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 22:51:09 -0500
From: dave cover <davecover@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Grinding Noise
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <ae3bc37c0911241951h3e3e09d6y2013fe925861eec5@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Well, the comm looks good, nice brown patina, no big scores. But the
sound your motor makes is scary. You spin it up and it slows down that
quick? Wow.

Lot's of guesswork from here, but here goes...

The accessory end of your motor shaft is easy to get to, can you grab
it and see if there's some play? Try and move it in an up and down
direction. A shot bearing could have noticeable movement. Can you spin
the motor by hand and tell which end is making the noise? It could be
hard to get started but it should turn. If you can't turn it by hand
with the car in neutral, somethings binding. And that would give you a
good indication of a bearing problem. Either way you probably have to
drop the motor. Even if it the motor was Ok and it's your transaxle,
you still have to pull it. But before you take it apart, doublecheck
the rest of the drivetrain to make sure there's no other obvious
problem.

How about this, with the car in neutral (motor not spinning) can you
roll the car back and forth fairly easily? Does it make any noise if
you move it a few feet across the garage floor?

Is there any way the transaxle to motor adapter (whatever replaced
your clutch and flywheel) could have shifted and is rubbing on some
housing? If they used a taperlock adapter it might not have been
tightened down all the way and it's moved. It might be just the keyway
spinning your transmission. I'm just grasping at straws here, not
really sure.

What did you replace the clutch with? Or did you buy it that way and
have never been in there? Sounds like a great opportunity to tinker.

If you do find a bad bearing, it's a real easy job to replace them.
Mark you end bells in relation to the housing so it all goes back
together the same way. When I replaced mine I went for a slightly
better bearing with a higher RPM rating. They were very reasonably
priced, why not? I think I got them from McMaster Carr.

Good luck

On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 7:37 PM, Stephen Jordan <sjjordan@...> wrote:
>
> I posted some pictures online including a recording of the motor noise.
> (motor only revs to a few hundred rpm). High res images are available if you
> click the links at the bottom.
>
> http://web.me.com/sjjordan/Motor
>
> As far as I could tell, everything looked good. Nothing looked burnt or
> abnormal. ?I'm not sure there's much else I can do without taking off the
> motor. ?What kind of lubrication could I try and where do I put it?
>
> I usually put about 150A through the motor, but live in Alabama, which has
> lots of hills. It's common for the motor to pull 200A routinely climbing a
> hill. ?My daily commute is 22mi and has a few hills.
>
> Thanks again for all your help guys! This forum is fantastic.
>
>
> a bad bearing will last a while usually before failing and it will start
> making a loud humming sound at the right speeds (ever had a car with wheel
> berings going bad just before a vacation with a lot of driving? The bearings
> will hold for thousands of miles luckily so they can be replaced afterwards
> if you can live with their whine)
>
> I wonder is you could have dry seals on bearings or axes - that will also
> cause friction and noise that will go away with lubrication. but it
> typically is not so much friction that you would notice it in poor coasting.
>
> Commutator and brushes are usually behind a metal grille, unless your motor
> has ducting, for example
> for air cooling (and as some like to say, to distribute the brush dust
> through your whole motor).
>
> Since you have a clutchless setup, over-speeding is not your main concern.
> It is lugging and overheating the motor. That can cause fast brush wear
> (from overheating) so I suggest to check the brushes and commutator first.
> Maybe you just need a mirror to look behind the motor at the brushes?
> Shoot pictures if possible, upload them on a website and post a like here -
> plenty people know how brushes and commutator *should* look like.
>
> How much current are you routinely pushing through this motor in your
> driving?
>
> Success,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: CWater@... ? ?Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water ? ? IM: cor_van_de_water@...
> Tel: +1 408 383 7626 ? ? ? ?VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
> Of Stephen Jordan
> Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 5:19 PM
> To: ev@...
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Grinding Noise
>
>
> Thanks for the reply.
>
> It's a 94 Saturn, manual transmission, clutch-less.
>
> It took about 5-8 seconds to spin down when I put it in neutral going down a
> hill. ?I did this because I suspected increased friction as the car also has
> a been coasting very poorly.
>
> YES. ?The noise was there when I put it in neutral and spun the motor. ?And
> it would quickly slow down when I released the throttle.
>
> I can't see the commutator or brushes. Not sure what scoring is, but I
> looked under the car last night and there was no damage, obvious wear and
> tear.
>
> Thanks again!
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
http://n4.nabble.com/Motor-Grinding-Noise-tp786463p787284.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>



--
http://www.evalbum.com/2149



------------------------------

_______________________________________________
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For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



End of EV Digest, Vol 28, Issue 37
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Today's Topics:

    1. Re: Hopefull answers to "oil crash" (Dave Hymers)
    2. Re: Hopefull answers to "oil crash" (Roger Heuckeroth)
    3. Re: Hopefull answers to "oil crash" (Dave Hymers)
    4. Re: Hopefull answers to "oil crash"....Other Tragedies (Bob Rice)
    5. Re: LiFePO4s - crossbars to use when connecting 100AH cells?
       (Roger Heuckeroth)
    6. Re: Hopefull answers to "oil crash" (Bob Rice)
    7. Re: LiFePO4s - crossbars to use when connecting 100AH cells?
       (Lee Hart)
    8. Re: LiFePO4s - crossbars to use when connecting 100AH cells?
       (Seth Rothenberg)
    9. Re: LiFePO4s - crossbars to use when connecting 100AH cells?
       (Lee Hart)
   10. Re: LiFePO4s - crossbars to use when connecting 100AH cells?
       (Collin Kidder)
   11. Re: LiFePO4s - crossbars to use when connecting 100AH cells?
       (Bob Sisson)
   12. Re: Motor Grinding Noise (Wayne Krauth)
   13. this almost made me puke :( (Dave Hymers)
   14. Re: this almost made me puke :( (Bob Rice)
   15. Re: LiFePO4s - crossbars to use when connecting 100AH cells?
       (Bob Rice)
   16. Re: LiFePO4s - crossbars to use when connecting 100AH cells?
       (Roger Heuckeroth)
   17. Re: Hopefull answers to "oil crash" (Rick Beebe)
   18. Re: Hopefull answers to "oil crash" (Dave Hymers)
   19. Re: EV Plug-Connector (Rush)
   20. OT Re:  Hopefull answers to "oil crash" (Lock Hughes)
   21. Re: Motor Grinding Noise (Stephen Jordan)
   22. Re: Motor Grinding Noise (Stephen Jordan)
   23. Re: EV Plug-Connector (Douglas A. Stansfield)
   24. Re: OT Re: Hopefull answers to "oil crash" (Dave Hymers)
   25. EV Plug-Connector (Marc Michon)
   26. Re: an alternative to the car computer (cowtown@...)
   27. Re: EV Plug-Connector (dave cover)
   28. Re: EV Plug-Connector (Jon Glauser)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 08:17:27 -0700
From: Dave Hymers <dhymers@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hopefull answers to "oil crash"
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <ec811c3f0911240717r5a535ecey26c1fde56b677fac@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

I'm pretty sure Mr. Ovshinsky appears in "who killed the electric car?" in
the battery segment ? there is an interview with him and his wife.
Good article :)
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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 10:18:15 -0500
From: Roger Heuckeroth <rheuckeroth@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hopefull answers to "oil crash"
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <2364C287-1946-476C-B395-027D3FABC900@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes

Yes, his company Ovonics that developed the NiMh car battery that was
sold to GM and then to Texaco/Chevron who now limits the size of the
batteries to exclude true EVs.  I hope he holds onto control of
whatever technology he develops next.

On Nov 24, 2009, at 6:35 AM, bearlkbob@... wrote:

> Read this article about an interesting inventor from Motor
> City.      http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/24/opinion/24herbert.html?_r=1&hp
>
> The dire predictions are about oil, the hope is in  "alternative"
> energy.
>
> Bob Polgreen
> -------------- next part --------------
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> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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>



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 08:21:35 -0700
From: Dave Hymers <dhymers@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hopefull answers to "oil crash"
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <ec811c3f0911240721o2d36b6b6u54a7632986b5f23f@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"

Yup.

"The United States should be leading the world in the creation of whole new
energy technologies and industries, instead of allowing the forces of the
old carbon-based industries ? coal, oil, gasoline-powered vehicles ? to
stand obstinately in the way of real progress."

I wonder if the author Bob Herbert knows how close this is to the actual
truth, they literally are standing in the way of progress.
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Message: 4
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 10:43:54 -0500
From: "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hopefull answers to "oil crash"....Other Tragedies
To: <dhymers@...>, "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
	 <ev@...>
Message-ID: <3463C5220CCA400E96A9002B44DB660C@adminwlzisp2uc>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Hymers" <dhymers@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 10:17 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hopefull answers to "oil crash"


> I'm pretty sure Mr. Ovshinsky appears in "who killed the electric car?" in
> the battery segment ? there is an interview with him and his wife.
> Good article :)

      Yes, Stan Ovshinsky and his Wife, Iris DID appear in WKtEC, THEY spoke
of how the stuff they were working on could help the Worlds ' Energy supply.
Tragicly, after Stan was silenced by the Powers that Be, at General Murders,
and Iris . later on,died, a double whammy for Stan, for sure. Both his
Battery dream smashed and losing his dear wife. Can you say "Heartbreaker?"

     Seeya

      Bob
> -------------- next part --------------
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------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 10:34:25 -0500
From: Roger Heuckeroth <rheuckeroth@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4s - crossbars to use when connecting 100AH
	 cells?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <94574206-DDF4-45EB-9FFF-4BAF99B69D2F@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes

Lee,

Why is aluminum used almost exclusively on standard 200 A residential
electrical service cables and load center terminals if it has such
poor properties?  Granted it is less than "ideal", but I wouldn't call
it a "poor choice".  As long as you use anti-oxidant and torque you
terminals, its a reasonable choice.  I would also add one more
recommendation to your suggestions below.  Make sure you use a
stainless steel wire brush on the contact surface to expose virgin
material before assembly.  Especially if your aluminum material has
been laying around oxidizing, or is anodized.


On Nov 24, 2009, at 9:33 AM, Lee Hart wrote:

> Rob Trahms wrote:
>> I was talking with a fellow EV'er over the weekend about the right
>> crossbar
>> connectors to use with 100ah prismatics like HiPower or Sky
>> Energy.  He
>> showed me some fairly thin looking straps (maybe 1/16" thick x1"x4"
>> machined
>> aluminum segments?) that he received with his cells.  We both
>> agreed these
>> seemed possibly inadequate for the job of a sustained 100-300A
>> current draw.
>> He then showed me some 3/8"x1"x4" machined aluminum bars he was
>> planning to
>> use instead.  Those will definitely work, and might qualify as
>> 'overkill'.
>
> Aluminum strikes me as a poor choice for an electrical connector.
> There
> are plenty of examples of what can go wrong. If one really must use
> aluminum, special techniques are needed to improve reliability.
>
> Aluminum has three bad features. 1) It forms a hard insulating oxide
> coating on contact with air. 2) It cold flows under pressure. 3) It
> has
> a large expansion coefficient with temperature.
>
> Suppose you simply clamp two pieces of aluminum together with a bolt.
> The oxide layer on the parts means only a tiny portion of the apparent
> surface area is actually making contact. When you run high current, it
> heats up. The aluminum expands. The bolt won't "give", so the aluminum
> extrudes out the sides to relieve the pressure.
>
> When the connection cools, the aluminum shrinks. Now the connection is
> looser. Air gets in, and further oxidizes the surfaces, worsening the
> connection. On the next high current cycle, it gets hotter, flows some
> more, shrinks again, oxidizes some more, etc. This process continues
> until the connection fails.
>
> Since aluminum has a low melting point and burns, the failure can be
> spectacular. Arcs, fires, flowing molten metal, etc.
>
> Here are some techniques used to make good connections in aluminum:
>
>  - Weld the aluminum parts together.
>  - Plate the aluminum with some other metal that won't corrode.
>  - Clamp it with extreme pressure, to seriously deform the aluminum
>    and "cold weld" the parts together.
>  - Or, clamp it with something that applies spring pressure to
> maintain
>    contact pressure despite expansion/contraction and cold flow.
>  - Apply some kind of grease to exclude air and water from the
>    connection.
> --
> Lee A. Hart  | Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave N  | Forget the perfect offering
> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 10:55:34 -0500
From: "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hopefull answers to "oil crash"
To: <dhymers@...>, "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
	 <ev@...>
Message-ID: <72F3B9B73E78464E99A34D68982B3472@adminwlzisp2uc>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252";
	 reply-type=original


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Hymers" <dhymers@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 10:21 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hopefull answers to "oil crash"


Yup.

"The United States should be leading the world in the creation of whole new
energy technologies and industries, instead of allowing the forces of the
old carbon-based industries ? coal, oil, gasoline-powered vehicles ? to
stand obstinately in the way of real progress."

   Well, Once upon a Time,in a Galexy, Far Far Away, the USA Led the world in
technology, Tom Edison, Henry Ford, the Wright Bros,And a Cast of
Thousands??  IF we still could, if we could break out of the malaze, and get
Good Folks back to work? Where is my Chevy Prius, for example? GM COULD have
beat Toyota?Had they wanted to?? We'd be at our Generous Motors dealer
waffling between a EV-2 or EV-3 Wagon, for hauling the kids ?Or a Chevie
Hybrid Diseasel truck for Dad to haul his contracting stuff about?A GM Truck
and Coach E-bus to get to work or See the USA, Going Greyhound ,and leaving
the driving to US?

     Somehow we Sheeple lost our way? We look to China and Japan , or
Elsewhere to lead US out of our mess, sigh?

     Seeya

     Bob



------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 10:00:15 -0600
From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4s - crossbars to use when connecting 100AH
	 cells?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B0C030F.2010005@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> Lee,
>
> Why is aluminum used almost exclusively on standard 200 A residential
> electrical service cables and load center terminals if it has such
> poor properties?

Because it's cheap. Cheap trumps everything else. Copper is better in
every other respect, except that it costs more.

    Granted it is less than "ideal", but I wouldn't call
> it a "poor choice".  As long as you use anti-oxidant and torque you
> terminals, its a reasonable choice.

Aluminum has a poor track record for fixed indoor wiring. In a vehicle
with its vibration, temperature cycling, and high peak currents, I
suspect you will find its reliability is even worse.

Now if you have enough time money to spend on special tools and
techniques, and do enough testing to be sure you solutions really work,
maybe aluminum wiring can be made to work. But what are the chances that
any of this will be done for a home builder or a small EV start-up
manufacturer?

--
Lee A. Hart  | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N  | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen



------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 11:01:57 -0500
From: Seth Rothenberg <nevjersey@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4s - crossbars to use when connecting 100AH
	 cells?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <e80545a50911240801s311224cdhcb5429e26a82646d@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Lee,
Thanks for the detailed description.
It's more interesting than just saying "don't use it"



------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 10:08:33 -0600
From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4s - crossbars to use when connecting 100AH
	 cells?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B0C0501.2090904@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Seth Rothenberg wrote:
> Lee,
> Thanks for the detailed description.
> It's more interesting than just saying "don't use it"

You're welcome. I'm not saying it can't be done. I just want people to
realize that it's not easy to do it right!

--
Lee A. Hart  | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N  | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen



------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 11:12:42 -0500
From: Collin Kidder <collink@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4s - crossbars to use when connecting 100AH
	 cells?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B0C05FA.2070807@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

On 11/24/2009 11:00 AM, Lee Hart wrote:
> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
>
>> Lee,
>>
>> Why is aluminum used almost exclusively on standard 200 A residential
>> electrical service cables and load center terminals if it has such
>> poor properties?
>>
> Because it's cheap. Cheap trumps everything else. Copper is better in
> every other respect, except that it costs more.
>

Another reason it is used sometimes in homes and industrial facilities
is that it's a lot lighter than copper. If you are running overhead
feeders it's sometimes a good idea to use aluminum so that the roof
doesn't get too much extra load. But even though it's lighter I'd go
with you and say that aluminum wiring has no place at all in cars.



------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 11:20:28 -0500
From: "Bob Sisson" <Garage@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4s - crossbars to use when connecting 100AH
	 cells?
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <00a301ca6d22$0939a990$1bacfcb0$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

The problem with Aluminum is that it EXPANDS a lot when it gets hot under
load.

It then either pushes OTHER materials out of the way, or deforms, and thus
when it cools there are gaps... These gaps cause "hot spots" which cause
EXTRA heating which makes the problem worse.

Copper expands, but not as much...

In both cases, the Spring Washers greatly HELP reduce the loosening of the
connections during the hold/cold cycling...

Bob Sisson
1993 Geo Metro Convertible Project
Gaithersburg MD




------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 08:45:06 -0800 (PST)
From: Wayne Krauth <wkrauth@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Grinding Noise
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <1259081106935-786960.post@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


Stephen,

My 1999 saturn recently had the same problem.   It developed an intermittent
squealing sound after 2500 miles.

It turns out that the problem was alignment of the flywheel relative to the
transmission adapter plate.    The assembly instructions said to make a
0.0674" gap between the back of the flywheel and the 'face' of the adapter.
I initially presumed that the face was the outer surface that touches the
transmission bell housing.  Wrong.  The face is the recessed cavity in the
adapter plate.      Having measured from the wrong location, my flywheel was
about 1/4 inch from where it should have been.    The car worked ok but
eventually something moved just enough to cause a metal-on-metal squeal.

Attached is a picture of my adapter plate so you can see the outer surface
and the recessed cavity.

Once the flywheel was relocated to 0.0674" from the cavity surface, the
problem was resolved.

Wayne








Stephen Jordan wrote:
>
> On my way in to work today, there was a noise coming from the motor that
> has me concerned. It changes tones (sometimes almost a grind, sometimes
> more a high-pitched squeal) but was loud and continuous on my ride home.
> The noise disappeared when i threw it into neutral at 25mi/hr and I could
> hear the motor spin down to a halt (suggesting significant friction). I've
> taken good care of the motor, never letting it overspin.
>
> Any ideas what I can do?  I'm in medical school and just started a very
> intensive rotation today (working 12 hrs/day) so any quick-fixes would be
> appreciated!
>
> The motor is a Advanced CD FB-4001A Double Shaft Series Wound DC from EV
> of America and is about 15 months old.
>
http://n4.nabble.com/file/n786960/IMG_5079.JPG IMG_5079.JPG
--
View this message in context:
http://n4.nabble.com/Motor-Grinding-Noise-tp786463p786960.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.



------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 09:50:04 -0700
From: Dave Hymers <dhymers@...>
Subject: [EVDL] this almost made me puke :(
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <ec811c3f0911240850r616e1053r379308c3065d975a@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

http://www.freeelectriccar.com/?gclid=CLDz2cCLpJ4CFQ8MDQodSEhvlA

people are using federal tax credits to buy golf carts ? HUH ?
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------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:02:17 -0500
From: "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] this almost made me puke :(
To: <dhymers@...>, "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
	 <ev@...>
Message-ID: <01A8FFED8F97409586280E509EA669EE@adminwlzisp2uc>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Hymers" <dhymers@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 11:50 AM
Subject: [EVDL] this almost made me puke :(


> http://www.freeelectriccar.com/?gclid=CLDz2cCLpJ4CFQ8MDQodSEhvlA
>
> people are using federal tax credits to buy golf carts ? HUH ?

      Great Start!  Golf Carts are great "Training Wheels"for REAL Electric
Cars! As are Plug in Hybrids(STILL gas cars!)NEVs, Citi_cars that have
survived, etc.
> -------------- next part --------------

     Stay tuned. What will Tesla Motors do fou the Rest of the US ian
Sheeple?
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>
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> _______________________________________________
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> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:05:39 -0500
From: "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4s - crossbars to use when connecting 100AH
	 cells?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <A42194F5F0AA4294A29ED6CD6D387350@adminwlzisp2uc>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original


----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <leeahart@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4s - crossbars to use when connecting 100AH cells?


> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
>> Lee,
>>
>> Why is aluminum used almost exclusively on standard 200 A residential
>> electrical service cables and load center terminals if it has such
>> poor properties?
>
> Because it's cheap. Cheap trumps everything else. Copper is better in
> every other respect, except that it costs more.
>
>   Granted it is less than "ideal", but I wouldn't call
>> it a "poor choice".  As long as you use anti-oxidant and torque you
>> terminals, its a reasonable choice.
>
> Aluminum has a poor track record for fixed indoor wiring. In a vehicle
> with its vibration, temperature cycling, and high peak currents, I
> suspect you will find its reliability is even worse.
>
> Now if you have enough time money to spend on special tools and
> techniques, and do enough testing to be sure you solutions really work,
> maybe aluminum wiring can be made to work. But what are the chances that
> any of this will be done for a home builder or a small EV start-up
> manufacturer?

    Damn little! I feel "Why Bother?"Go Copper in yur EV,Buy, PAY up, you
will be happier down the road! IF you sell yur stuff, you can't "afford " to
do Aluminum?

       Bob. One-car-a-year production<g>?
> --
> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



------------------------------

Message: 16
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:11:25 -0500
From: Roger Heuckeroth <rheuckeroth@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4s - crossbars to use when connecting 100AH
	 cells?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <FC6941FB-89B1-4C3C-8243-1B12E0F10F9E@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes


On Nov 24, 2009, at 12:05 PM, Bob Rice wrote:

>>
>> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
>>> Lee,
>>>
>>> Why is aluminum used almost exclusively on standard 200 A
>>> residential
>>> electrical service cables and load center terminals if it has such
>>> poor properties?
>>
>> Because it's cheap. Cheap trumps everything else. Copper is better in
>> every other respect, except that it costs more.
>>
>>  Granted it is less than "ideal", but I wouldn't call
>>> it a "poor choice".  As long as you use anti-oxidant and torque you
>>> terminals, its a reasonable choice.
>>
>> Aluminum has a poor track record for fixed indoor wiring. In a
>> vehicle
>> with its vibration, temperature cycling, and high peak currents, I
>> suspect you will find its reliability is even worse.
>>
>> Now if you have enough time money to spend on special tools and
>> techniques, and do enough testing to be sure you solutions really
>> work,
>> maybe aluminum wiring can be made to work. But what are the chances
>> that
>> any of this will be done for a home builder or a small EV start-up
>> manufacturer?
>
>   Damn little! I feel "Why Bother?"Go Copper in yur EV,Buy, PAY up,
> you
> will be happier down the road! IF you sell yur stuff, you can't
> "afford " to
> do Aluminum?

I will go with copper, but I would not be surprised if production EVs
use a good amount of aluminum because its cheaper than copper.  In the
automotive industry cheap wins over better anywhere they can get away
with it.



------------------------------

Message: 17
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:13:55 -0500
From: Rick Beebe <rick@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hopefull answers to "oil crash"
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B0C1453.1070006@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> Yes, his company Ovonics that developed the NiMh car battery that was
> sold to GM and then to Texaco/Chevron who now limits the size of the
> batteries to exclude true EVs.  I hope he holds onto control of
> whatever technology he develops next.

Textron/Chevron recently sold Cobasys to SB LiMotive (SBL). SBL is a
joint venture between Samsung SDI Co., Ltd. and Robert Bosch GmbH formed
to develop, manufacture, and sell batteries for automotive applications.

Stan's current technology is thin-film solar panels. They print them on
what looks like a printing press and they can be applied directly to
things like metal roofing. They're not quite as efficient as
conventional solar panels, but they _should_ be a lot less expensive and
you should be able to cover more of the roof with them. The new company
is United Solar Ovonic, www.uni-solar.com


--Rick



------------------------------

Message: 18
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 10:30:49 -0700
From: Dave Hymers <dhymers@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hopefull answers to "oil crash"
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <ec811c3f0911240930x1ed95897ha2d4d9ed7112432d@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Here's an interesting report from a battery conference confirming that:

http://www.ovonics.com/PDFs/Batteries2009OctoberNiceConference.pdf
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------------------------------

Message: 19
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:36:31 -0700
From: "Rush" <Rush@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Plug-Connector
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <C90DECBAD65B47A584603DBE88C9D863@meadow>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original


Doug wrote -

> Rush,
>
> I tried that link earlier today and the documents tab is empty.  I did the
> best I could to bring people up to speed.
>
> Yazaki is building the J1772 and their plug is in UL testing now so I am
> sure they used the standards in the document I first posted.  It is the
> most
> up to date "public" document that we can review, at least that I am aware
> of.
>
> If another document becomes available I will try and remember to post it.
>

Doug,

The specs on that website are the OLD J1772 Standard  and are NOT the specs
of the new
as-yet-unreleased-to-the-public Standard. But since, as you know, Yazaki is
producing it, the standards have been released to 'certain' individuals. The
standard is presently in the 'Balloting Process", as the SAE calls it, and
when approved, it wil be released.

It has been already been certified by the UL to ONLY 240v/30 amps, not the
full 50 amps that it the spec 'will' be written for. This is from Coulomb
tech.

I've gotten some pretty good info at http://teva2.com/J1772.html.

I think what is going to happen is that we will see an adapter box which
will have electronics in it to supply the necessary handshake signals for
charging. How much it will cost and what plug can be plugged into it is to
be seen. Hopefully the plug will not be proprietary.

What I find very interesting is that the Leaf will have a Level 3 input as
per Paul Scott's article
http://evsandenergy.blogspot.com/2009/11/nissans-leaf-falls-gently-to-earth-in.h\
tml.

Rush
Tucson AZ
www.TEVA2.com



------------------------------

Message: 20
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 09:41:47 -0800 (PST)
From: Lock Hughes <lockhughes@...>
Subject: [EVDL] OT Re:  Hopefull answers to "oil crash"
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <190051.20839.qm@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Rob Hopkins: Transition to a world without oil

YouTube video of a recent TEDtalk seminar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8meWY0W40OA

Rob Hopkins reminds us that the oil our world depends on is steadily running
out. He proposes a unique solution to this problem -- the Transition response,
where we prepare ourselves for life without oil and sacrifice our luxuries to
build systems and communities that are completely independent of fossil fuels.

Tks
Lock


       __________________________________________________________________
Connect with friends from any web browser - no download required. Try the new
Yahoo! Canada Messenger for the Web BETA at
http://ca.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php



------------------------------

Message: 21
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 09:42:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Stephen Jordan <sjjordan@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Grinding Noise
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <1259084571779-787007.post@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8


Guess I need to drop the motor out and look at it.

I CAN spin the motor by hand, but there's a lot of friction. I can only spin
it a few inches at a time and it stops right away.

And the noise disappears if I put the car in neutral, so I think we're
dealing with a motor problem.

I'll try and get a hold of an engine hoist and pull it out this weekend.
Hopefully I can diagnose it quickly.

Thanks again for your help.


dave cover-2 wrote:
>
> 5-8 seconds sounds way to short. Mine will spin quite a while when I
> put it in neutral. If possible you need to put your eyes on the
> commutator and brushes. If they look good, the next culprit would be
> the bearings. It's a simple fix, but it means pulling the motor. Can
> you spin the motor by hand? If you can, turn it slowly and see how it
> feels and sounds. (You can also blip it with the controller and watch
> it spin down.) A bad bearing will usually make a grinding kind of
> noise and feel rough. Also, you should pull the springs off the
> brushes so they don't interfere. They don't need to come off, just
> pulled back and set onto their perch on the brush holder. Normal
> brushes will resist movement a little bit (when turning by hand) and
> make a slight scratchy kind of noise.
>
> On the other side of the coin, a bearing may feel Ok when cool but act
> up when driving down the road.
>
> Another thing to consider is the pilot bearing if you have one. But
> this doesn't make sense if the noise goes away when you put the car in
> neutral. Also doesn't make sense if the motor spins down quickly while
> moving down the road. If you get a bearing noise when spinning by
> hand, make sure it's coming from the motor and not the rest of the
> drive train. Is this a front wheel drive Saturn?
>
> How about accessories? Do you have anything on the other end of the
> motor? Power steering pump, alternator, vacuum pump, etc.?
>
> And I wouldn't drive it until you get a better idea of where the
> problem is coming from. Get one of those simple stethoscopes, it will
> help pinpoint the noise pretty quickly.
>
> Where are you located? Is your car up on EVAlbum? Pictures would be great.
>
> Dave Cover
>
> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 6:48 AM, Stephen Jordan <sjjordan@...>
> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for the reply.
>>
>> It's a 94 Saturn, manual transmission, clutch-less.
>>
>> It took about 5-8 seconds to spin down when I put it in neutral going
>> down a
>> hill. ?I did this because I suspected increased friction as the car also
>> has
>> a been coasting very poorly.
>>
>> YES. ?The noise was there when I put it in neutral and spun the motor.
>> ?And
>> it would quickly slow down when I released the throttle.
>>
>> I can't see the commutator or brushes. Not sure what scoring is, but I
>> looked under the car last night and there was no damage, obvious wear and
>> tear.
>>
>> Thanks again!
>>
>>
>> dave cover-2 wrote:
>>>
>>> Need some more info. Car? Transmission? Has a clutch?
>>>
>>> How long did it take to spin down, 5 seconds or 30?
>>>
>>> Did the noise go away when you pressed in the clutch? Put it in
>>> neutral? Released the clutch in neutral?
>>>
>>> Can you see the commutator and brushes? Any scoring?
>>>
>>> With the car sitting, in neutral, does the motor make any noise when
>>> you spin it up?
>>>
>>> Dave Cover, with the same motor in my car.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 7:47 PM, Stephen Jordan <sjjordan@...>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On my way in to work today, there was a noise coming from the motor
>>>> that
>>>> has
>>>> me concerned. It changes tones (sometimes almost a grind, sometimes
>>>> more
>>>> a
>>>> high-pitched squeal) but was loud and continuous on my ride home. ?The
>>>> noise
>>>> disappeared when i threw it into neutral at 25mi/hr and I could hear
>>>> the
>>>> motor spin down to a halt (suggesting significant friction). I've taken
>>>> good
>>>> care of the motor, never letting it overspin.
>>>>
>>>> Any ideas what I can do? ?I'm in medical school and just started a very
>>>> intensive rotation today (working 12 hrs/day) so any quick-fixes would
>>>> be
>>>> appreciated!
>>>>
>>>> The motor is a Advanced CD FB-4001A Double Shaft Series Wound DC from
>>>> EV
>>>> of
>>>> America and is about 15 months old.
>>>> --
>>>> View this message in context:
>>>> http://n4.nabble.com/Motor-Grinding-Noise-tp786463p786463.html
>>>> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
>>>> Nabble.com.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>>>> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>>>> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>>>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> http://www.evalbum.com/2149
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>>> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>>> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://n4.nabble.com/Motor-Grinding-Noise-tp786463p786732.html
>> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
>> Nabble.com.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> http://www.evalbum.com/2149
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
>

--
View this message in context:
http://n4.nabble.com/Motor-Grinding-Noise-tp786463p787007.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.



------------------------------

Message: 22
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 09:43:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Stephen Jordan <sjjordan@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Grinding Noise
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <1259084626252-787009.post@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8


Here's the car:

http://www.evalbum.com/1708

Stephen


Stephen Jordan wrote:
>
> Thanks for the reply.
>
> It's a 94 Saturn, manual transmission, clutch-less.
>
> It took about 5-8 seconds to spin down when I put it in neutral going down
> a hill.  I did this because I suspected increased friction as the car also
> has a been coasting very poorly.
>
> YES.  The noise was there when I put it in neutral and spun the motor.
> And it would quickly slow down when I released the throttle.
>
> I can't see the commutator or brushes. Not sure what scoring is, but I
> looked under the car last night and there was no damage, obvious wear and
> tear.
>
> Thanks again!
>
>
> dave cover-2 wrote:
>>
>> Need some more info. Car? Transmission? Has a clutch?
>>
>> How long did it take to spin down, 5 seconds or 30?
>>
>> Did the noise go away when you pressed in the clutch? Put it in
>> neutral? Released the clutch in neutral?
>>
>> Can you see the commutator and brushes? Any scoring?
>>
>> With the car sitting, in neutral, does the motor make any noise when
>> you spin it up?
>>
>> Dave Cover, with the same motor in my car.
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 7:47 PM, Stephen Jordan <sjjordan@...>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On my way in to work today, there was a noise coming from the motor that
>>> has
>>> me concerned. It changes tones (sometimes almost a grind, sometimes more
>>> a
>>> high-pitched squeal) but was loud and continuous on my ride home. ?The
>>> noise
>>> disappeared when i threw it into neutral at 25mi/hr and I could hear the
>>> motor spin down to a halt (suggesting significant friction). I've taken
>>> good
>>> care of the motor, never letting it overspin.
>>>
>>> Any ideas what I can do? ?I'm in medical school and just started a very
>>> intensive rotation today (working 12 hrs/day) so any quick-fixes would
>>> be
>>> appreciated!
>>>
>>> The motor is a Advanced CD FB-4001A Double Shaft Series Wound DC from EV
>>> of
>>> America and is about 15 months old.
>>> --
>>> View this message in context:
>>> http://n4.nabble.com/Motor-Grinding-Noise-tp786463p786463.html
>>> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
>>> Nabble.com.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>>> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>>> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> http://www.evalbum.com/2149
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>>
>
>

--
View this message in context:
http://n4.nabble.com/Motor-Grinding-Noise-tp786463p787009.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.



------------------------------

Message: 23
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:46:23 -0500
From: "Douglas A. Stansfield" <Doug@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Plug-Connector
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <019201ca6d2e$0a7678e0$1f636aa0$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Thanks Rush,

I am trying to read the 180 page, Electric Coalition document.  Read about
20 pages so far and it is pretty good.  I like most of the comments but not
all.  Oh well,

Makes me wonder why FEDEX CEO is on board.  I tried over a year ago to get
them to convert some of their trucks into "hybrids" and they didn't want to
do any.  Seems strange...an about face.....glad to see it anyway.....

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!!!!


Sincerely;

Douglas A. Stansfield
President
www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
973-875-6276 (office)
973-670-9208 (cell)
973-440-1619 (fax)

WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS







-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
Of Rush
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 11:37 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Plug-Connector


Doug wrote -

> Rush,
>
> I tried that link earlier today and the documents tab is empty.  I did the
> best I could to bring people up to speed.
>
> Yazaki is building the J1772 and their plug is in UL testing now so I am
> sure they used the standards in the document I first posted.  It is the
> most
> up to date "public" document that we can review, at least that I am aware
> of.
>
> If another document becomes available I will try and remember to post it.
>

Doug,

The specs on that website are the OLD J1772 Standard  and are NOT the specs
of the new
as-yet-unreleased-to-the-public Standard. But since, as you know, Yazaki is
producing it, the standards have been released to 'certain' individuals. The

standard is presently in the 'Balloting Process", as the SAE calls it, and
when approved, it wil be released.

It has been already been certified by the UL to ONLY 240v/30 amps, not the
full 50 amps that it the spec 'will' be written for. This is from Coulomb
tech.

I've gotten some pretty good info at http://teva2.com/J1772.html.

I think what is going to happen is that we will see an adapter box which
will have electronics in it to supply the necessary handshake signals for
charging. How much it will cost and what plug can be plugged into it is to
be seen. Hopefully the plug will not be proprietary.

What I find very interesting is that the Leaf will have a Level 3 input as
per Paul Scott's article
http://evsandenergy.blogspot.com/2009/11/nissans-leaf-falls-gently-to-earth-
in.html.

Rush
Tucson AZ
www.TEVA2.com

_______________________________________________
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------------------------------

Message: 24
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 10:56:43 -0700
From: Dave Hymers <dhymers@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT Re: Hopefull answers to "oil crash"
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <ec811c3f0911240956i4fdfa94aiba46c4b2e0ac341f@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Ahah! I recognize him, hes the "Transition Towns" bloke. I'll have to watch
that.
Thanks.
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Message: 25
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 11:24:51 -0800
From: "Marc Michon" <marc07@...>
Subject: [EVDL] EV Plug-Connector
To: <ev@...>
Message-ID: <001401ca6d3b$cb5bf5a0$3206a8c0@workstation>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original

Here is what PG&E in California has on EV charging standards
http://www.pge.com/mybusiness/environment/pge/cleanair/electricdrivevehicles/cha\
rging/index.shtml
Scroll to EV charging essentials, has connector info
they are moving pretty fast on it surprisingly
i talked to a guy at their EV transportation section
they are updating as get Nemna, UL updates
they guy has an AC Propulsion Ebox



------------------------------

Message: 26
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 11:46:51 -0800
From: cowtown@...
Subject: Re: [EVDL] an alternative to the car computer
To: ev@...
Message-ID:
	 <20091124114651.2hxizubu0ogkck08-pbjgbja@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes";
	 format="flowed"

<<<< My latest problem is a fully loaded 2010 Audi, which actually claims
on the sales spec sheet that it  has 3 sophisticated CAN circuits
(buses) for powertrain, passenger comfort and safety and infotainment.
   The computer shifted, dual clutch manual transmission commands the
engine to blank the throttle (inhibit the injectors) whenever its
shifting (8ms shift time!!).  The ABS, ECU and transmission
communicate together to control deacceleration, using a combination of
braking and downshifting.  I've just started, but I suspect it will
prove interesting, and maybe impossible. >>>>

Didn't Victor convert a late-model Audi recently?


Think more
     Talk less
        Become wise



------------------------------

Message: 27
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 14:52:29 -0500
From: dave cover <davecover@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Plug-Connector
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <ae3bc37c0911241152w403e5d56x624e952fa6109008@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Looks like they are taking their time making the updates.

On page 4;
"UL is performing tests on the equipment and hopes to complete the
listing by the end of 1999."

On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 2:24 PM, Marc Michon <marc07@...> wrote:
> Here is what PG&E in California has on EV charging standards
>
http://www.pge.com/mybusiness/environment/pge/cleanair/electricdrivevehicles/cha\
rging/index.shtml
> Scroll to EV charging essentials, has connector info
> they are moving pretty fast on it surprisingly
> i talked to a guy at their EV transportation section
> they are updating as get Nemna, UL updates
> they guy has an AC Propulsion Ebox
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>



--
http://www.evalbum.com/2149



------------------------------

Message: 28
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:53:57 -0700
From: Jon Glauser <jonglauser@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Plug-Connector
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <a5f5166f0911241153o2b2ecd8fr5cd2a4c20cf1ba3@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Thats pretty cool to see them so supportive of and prepared for EVs.

It seems to me as though all the power companies are looking at
special equipment to charge EVs. But mot all of us have been using the
same plugs our appliances use. I'm worried they will make it illegal
to charge EVs with an extension cord somehow. I'm quite happy with my
25' cord and 20A outlet, and I'm not excited to have to buy a $1000
meter/base/cable/connector.


-Jon Glauser
http://jonglauser.blogspot.com
http://www.evalbum.com/555



------------------------------

_______________________________________________
EV@...
For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



End of EV Digest, Vol 28, Issue 36
**********************************

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Today's Topics:

    1. Re: EV Plug-Connector (joe)
    2. Re: EV Plug-Connector (Douglas A. Stansfield)
    3. Re: EV Plug-Connector (Roger Stockton)
    4. GM to repay $6.7 Billion......Yeah Right!!!!
       (Douglas A. Stansfield)
    5. Re: Slightly OT: Rust prevention was Re: Start up a RENTYOUR
       PACK OF BATTERIES store (Chuck Hursch)
    6. OT:  mid-90s Nuts&Volts magazine issues will be available
       (Chuck Hursch)
    7.  Motor Grinding Noise (Stephen Jordan)
    8. Re: EV Plug-Connector (Rush)
    9.  LiFePO4s - crossbars to use when connecting 100AH cells?
       (Rob Trahms)
   10. Re: EV Plug-Connector (Douglas A. Stansfield)
   11. Re: LiFePO4s - crossbars to use when connecting 100AH cells?
       (Roland Wiench)
   12. Re: Slightly OT: Rust prevention was Re: Start up a RENTYOUR
       PACK OF BATTERIES store (Christopher Zach)
   13. Re: LiFePO4s - crossbars to use when connecting 100AH cells?
       (Peter C. Thompson)
   14. Re: Motor Grinding Noise (dave cover)
   15. I've got a few extra fans 4" water resistant 12vdc with
       grilles (Paul Wallace)
   16. Re: LiFePO4s - crossbars to use when connecting 100AH cells?
       (dave cover)
   17. Re: LiFePO4s - crossbars to use when connecting 100AH cells?
       (mark at evie-systems)
   18. chargers (Alan Shaw)
   19. Re: chargers (mark at evie-systems)
   20. Re: chargers (mark at evie-systems)
   21. Re: chargers (cowtown@...)
   22. Re: OK you-all create an alternative to the car computer
       (Mark Farver)
   23. Re: super caps or vaporware (Joseph Ashwood)
   24. Hopefull answers to "oil crash" (bearlkbob@...)
   25. Re: Motor Grinding Noise (Stephen Jordan)
   26. Re: Motor Grinding Noise (dave cover)
   27. Re: LiFePO4s - crossbars to use when connecting 100AH cells?
       (Lee Hart)
   28. Re: super caps or vaporware (Roland Wiench)
   29. Re: LiFePO4s - crossbars to use when connecting 100AH cells?
       (Bob Rice)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 12:43:27 -0800
From: "joe" <joe@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Plug-Connector
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <33BB9684A40F4960A292859C5C92DE78@Sales>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original

What I meant by a potential problem is the lack of a standard - so each
manufacturer can make their own style of connector, and nobody else will
make anything like it, especially if it is patented. Which results in no
competition, and means that the manufacturer can charge whatever they want
to for the connector. That's bad news for us, the consumer!

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: joe@...


----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <leeahart@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 10:36 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Plug-Connector


> joe wrote:
>> AND they're non-NEMA, which is a potential problem.
>
> Why do you feel that will be a problem? Almost all connectors are
> non-NEMA.  For example, the very common IEC connector found on all
> computers and related equipment is non NEMA. However, it *is* listed by
> UL CSA CE and many other regulatory agencies worldwide as acceptable for
> 120v and 240v applications. Likewise, the Avcon connector and GM's
> Magnecharger were not NEMA listed.
>
> --
> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 16:02:58 -0500
From: "Douglas A. Stansfield" <Doug@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Plug-Connector
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <008a01ca6c80$5634b930$029e2b90$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I believe the J1772 connector is open source based on an SAE document found
here
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/stakeholders/infrastructure/finalsaej17
72.doc .  I believe any OEM can then manufacture to the standards described
in the document.  Currently I am only aware of Yazaki actually building it.


Sincerely;

Douglas A. Stansfield
President
www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
973-875-6276 (office)
973-670-9208 (cell)
973-440-1619 (fax)

WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS





-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
Of joe
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 3:43 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Plug-Connector

What I meant by a potential problem is the lack of a standard - so each
manufacturer can make their own style of connector, and nobody else will
make anything like it, especially if it is patented. Which results in no
competition, and means that the manufacturer can charge whatever they want
to for the connector. That's bad news for us, the consumer!

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: joe@...


----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <leeahart@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 10:36 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Plug-Connector


> joe wrote:
>> AND they're non-NEMA, which is a potential problem.
>
> Why do you feel that will be a problem? Almost all connectors are
> non-NEMA.  For example, the very common IEC connector found on all
> computers and related equipment is non NEMA. However, it *is* listed by
> UL CSA CE and many other regulatory agencies worldwide as acceptable for
> 120v and 240v applications. Likewise, the Avcon connector and GM's
> Magnecharger were not NEMA listed.
>
> --
> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

_______________________________________________
General support: http://evdl.org/help/
Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 13:14:45 -0800
From: Roger Stockton <rstockton@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Plug-Connector
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <706F54AA6AA33D48AD2CDA168A1E35CF2A3D44448D@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Douglas A. Stansfield wrote:

> I believe the J1772 connector is open source based on an SAE
> document found here
> http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/stakeholders/infrastructu
> re/finalsaej17
> 72.doc .  I believe any OEM can then manufacture to the
> standards described in the document.  Currently I am only
> aware of Yazaki actually building it.

Unless I misunderstood, Joe was cautioning against the use of non-NEMA
twist-lock connector systems because of the lack of standardisation between the
various manufacturer's proprietary designs.

As you note, the J1772 standard defines the connector system such that a J1772
plug purchased from one manufacturer should be compatible with another
manufacturer's J1772 receptacle, just as a NEMA L14-30 plug from one
manufacturer is compatible with any other manufacturer's L14-30 receptacle.

Cheers,

Roger.



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 16:47:27 -0500
From: "Douglas A. Stansfield" <Doug@...>
Subject: [EVDL] GM to repay $6.7 Billion......Yeah Right!!!!
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <009a01ca6c86$8ce29f00$a6a7dd00$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Check out this article...



GM says they are going to pay back $6.7 Billion!!!  The treasury has given
them $52 Billion!!!!!



http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/23/opinion/23niedermayer.html?_r=1
<http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/23/opinion/23niedermayer.html?_r=1&sudsredir
ect=true> &sudsredirect=true



What a joke this company is...!!!!





Sincerely;



Douglas A. Stansfield

President

www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com

973-875-6276 (office)

973-670-9208 (cell)

973-440-1619 (fax)



WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS

And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS

LogoColorNoText.jpg









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------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 14:29:02 -0800
From: Chuck Hursch <ch10h3@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Slightly OT: Rust prevention was Re: Start up a
	 RENTYOUR PACK OF BATTERIES store
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B0B0CAE.8000802@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Chris,

These two gutters and their drains - are you talking about the ones in
the cowl area at the base of the windshield, where the wiper motor is
located?  That's the only drain scene I am aware of for that part of the
car.  What I've done for that scene on my Rabbit is to use the old drain
grommets (I've forgotten how much I modified those, but I remember one
falling apart not too many years ago), and hanging plastic drain pipes
from them down in some fashion to the bottom of the engine compartment.
   The pipes are a good two to three feet long.  I'm always keeping an
eye on those drains to see that they aren't getting filled up with pine
needles and other glop.  Any other drains?  When I first read your
posting, and from what someone told me a few years ago, I began to think
there were drains just in front of the doors that would get clogged up
and cause fender (quarterpanel) rot at the rear below the door hinges,
but I'm not aware of any drains there.  I think water tends to get in
there from below and from wheelspray.  When I first had this 1980
American-made Rabbit back in 1994 (had it as a diesel for three months
prior to converting it), I found fender rot in that area on the driver's
side.  That and other stuff was cleared in a body and paint effort in
the fall of 1996.  Now, I have some rot starting to occur over on the
pass side in the same area.  That, and some other rust spots, such as
little bubbles starting to appear under the window rubbers and along the
roof gutters is going to entail another such b&p effort before long.  It
looked nice, freshly waxed in 1997
(http://www.electroauto.com/gallery/vrabbit3.shtml), and still does, but
everytime I wash it (every month or two), I see that rust creeping in.

I wanted to point out that there is a book called Getting the Bugs Out:
   The Rise, Fall, and Comeback of Volkswagen in America, by David Kiley,
copyright 2002.  Given what I've seen, the bugs were in in 1980.  This
will be the last VW I'll ever own.  That and the '68 Bug I had from
1978-1993 had endless electrical issues, although the Bug did not have
the rot problems that the Rabbit has had (the Bug had one runner board
that had some rot, but that's all I'm remembering for that car - it was
a darned good snow car with 140lbs of cinder blocks in the bonnet and
studded snow tires).  My '86 Toyota 4Runner has had very few problems,
although it is not a daily driver - the Rabbit electric has that job.
In all fairness, my Marin Motorsports mechanic who handles some of the
issues with the Rabbit says that VW learned how to seal their cars later
on.  But I'd still be loath to put resources into another one.

Chuck

Christopher Zach wrote:
> Bob Rice wrote:
>>    And VW Rabbits, too! Great car to convert, sturdy, handy aftermarket
>> parts, etc. But RUST BUCKETS! The #$%^ windshields leaked in the Drivers
>> side in particular, pissing water down behind the dash, attacking the door
>> posts, you had to LIFT the door up, to close it! The fuse box, or strip got
>> wet, causing endless electrical issues, Oh, same for older Jettas,
>> too!When's the L:AST time ya saw a Rabbit in places where there is weather?
>> Rumer has it that there are STILL Rabbits, etc,Out West? In that I have a 20
>> year old Jetta is no small miricle, It WAS undercoated and musta led a
>> charmed life in it's early years?Well for that matter any OLDER Datsuns' The
>> White Zombie woulda been mulch 20 YEARS ago, had it been born on the Least
>> Coast!Sure miss those simple, computerless cars! Hard around here to find
>> basic, simple , clean doner cars.
>
> The key to Rabbits is to understand that the gutters under the window go
> to two drains, under the hood, right in front of the door. For some
> unknown reason VW put rubber things in the drain holes that would either
> get cemented together with organic material or otherwise clogged. Once
> that happened water would overflow into the car and make a mess.
>
> My 84 Rabbit did this, I thought the windshield was leaking. 30 seconds
> with a garden hose and the problem went away forever. Sad, VW seems to
> have a desire to install rust as a factory option (the 914 was the best
> example of this).
>
> I miss that GTI. What finally killed it was the fuel pump blowing a line
> and pouring gas under the car. Body however was fine (got rid of in 2004)
>
> Chris
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>




------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 14:32:15 -0800
From: Chuck Hursch <ch10h3@...>
Subject: [EVDL] OT:  mid-90s Nuts&Volts magazine issues will be
	 available
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B0B0D6F.50506@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

I am in the process of imaging my old Nuts&Volts magazines from a
subscription I had in the mid-90s.  Getting the interesting articles
onto the computer and tossing the rest.  There are lots of articles on
BASIC Stamps and other such ilk that I see mentioned on the EVDL, albeit
with a 90s flavor.  It's a good education for me to look at these old
dusty back issues, and relate it to what I see on the EVDL.  I even
re-read an old article by ElectroAutomotive's Shari Prange on gear
shifting in an EV, picturing a VoltsRabbit schussing up a road
somewhere.  At any rate, if anyone would be interested in these old N&V
issues from the 1995/1996 era, please contact me off-list.  It's going
to take me a few weeks/months to do 'em all, but if I know someone is
interested in having them, I won't toss them out as I go, and I will
contact the person once done.  At printed-matter postage rates, it may
not cost that much to ship them, and the mags themselves I'll let go for
free.

Chuck



------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 16:47:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Stephen Jordan <sjjordan@...>
Subject: [EVDL]  Motor Grinding Noise
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <1259023646455-786463.post@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


On my way in to work today, there was a noise coming from the motor that has
me concerned. It changes tones (sometimes almost a grind, sometimes more a
high-pitched squeal) but was loud and continuous on my ride home.  The noise
disappeared when i threw it into neutral at 25mi/hr and I could hear the
motor spin down to a halt (suggesting significant friction). I've taken good
care of the motor, never letting it overspin.

Any ideas what I can do?  I'm in medical school and just started a very
intensive rotation today (working 12 hrs/day) so any quick-fixes would be
appreciated!

The motor is a Advanced CD FB-4001A Double Shaft Series Wound DC from EV of
America and is about 15 months old.
--
View this message in context:
http://n4.nabble.com/Motor-Grinding-Noise-tp786463p786463.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.



------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 14:33:51 -0700
From: "Rush" <Rush@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Plug-Connector
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <76DC981821234479ADEDAFF451910C64@meadow>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original

That is the old Standard, not the new one that the Leaf and new vehicles
will be using. The new J1772 Standard has not been released yet to the
public. If you want to check to see if it has been released go to
http://www.sae.org/servlets/works/committeeHome.do?comtID=TEVHYB3 and clik
on the documents tab.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas A. Stansfield" <Doug@...>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 2:02 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Plug-Connector


>I believe the J1772 connector is open source based on an SAE document found
> here
> http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/stakeholders/infrastructure/finalsaej17
> 72.doc .  I believe any OEM can then manufacture to the standards
> described
> in the document.  Currently I am only aware of Yazaki actually building
> it.
>
>
> Sincerely;
>
> Douglas A. Stansfield
> President
> www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
> 973-875-6276 (office)
> 973-670-9208 (cell)
> 973-440-1619 (fax)
>
> WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
> And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On
> Behalf
> Of joe
> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 3:43 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Plug-Connector
>
> What I meant by a potential problem is the lack of a standard - so each
> manufacturer can make their own style of connector, and nobody else will
> make anything like it, especially if it is patented. Which results in no
> competition, and means that the manufacturer can charge whatever they want
> to for the connector. That's bad news for us, the consumer!
>
> Joseph H. Strubhar
>
> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>
> E-mail: joe@...
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lee Hart" <leeahart@...>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 10:36 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Plug-Connector
>
>
>> joe wrote:
>>> AND they're non-NEMA, which is a potential problem.
>>
>> Why do you feel that will be a problem? Almost all connectors are
>> non-NEMA.  For example, the very common IEC connector found on all
>> computers and related equipment is non NEMA. However, it *is* listed by
>> UL CSA CE and many other regulatory agencies worldwide as acceptable for
>> 120v and 240v applications. Likewise, the Avcon connector and GM's
>> Magnecharger were not NEMA listed.
>>
>> --
>> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
>> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
>> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
>> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 18:25:17 -0800 (PST)
From: Rob Trahms <rtrahms@...>
Subject: [EVDL]  LiFePO4s - crossbars to use when connecting 100AH
	 cells?
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <1259029517330-786484.post@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


Hi all -

I was talking with a fellow EV'er over the weekend about the right crossbar
connectors to use with 100ah prismatics like HiPower or Sky Energy.  He
showed me some fairly thin looking straps (maybe 1/16" thick x1"x4" machined
aluminum segments?) that he received with his cells.  We both agreed these
seemed possibly inadequate for the job of a sustained 100-300A current draw.
He then showed me some 3/8"x1"x4" machined aluminum bars he was planning to
use instead.  Those will definitely work, and might qualify as 'overkill'.

Just curious, what are folks using on their conversions to connect up
LiFePO4 prismatics, especially to carry sustained currents of 100-300A?

Thanks,
Rob
--
View this message in context:
http://n4.nabble.com/LiFePO4s-crossbars-to-use-when-connecting-100AH-cells-tp786\
484p786484.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.



------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:28:06 -0500
From: "Douglas A. Stansfield" <Doug@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Plug-Connector
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <010d01ca6cad$c1d675c0$45836140$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Rush,

I tried that link earlier today and the documents tab is empty.  I did the
best I could to bring people up to speed.

Yazaki is building the J1772 and their plug is in UL testing now so I am
sure they used the standards in the document I first posted.  It is the most
up to date "public" document that we can review, at least that I am aware
of.

If another document becomes available I will try and remember to post it.


Sincerely;

Douglas A. Stansfield
President
www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
973-875-6276 (office)
973-670-9208 (cell)
973-440-1619 (fax)

WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS





-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
Of Rush
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 4:34 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Plug-Connector

That is the old Standard, not the new one that the Leaf and new vehicles
will be using. The new J1772 Standard has not been released yet to the
public. If you want to check to see if it has been released go to
http://www.sae.org/servlets/works/committeeHome.do?comtID=TEVHYB3 and clik
on the documents tab.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas A. Stansfield" <Doug@...>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 2:02 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Plug-Connector


>I believe the J1772 connector is open source based on an SAE document found
> here
>
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/stakeholders/infrastructure/finalsaej17
> 72.doc .  I believe any OEM can then manufacture to the standards
> described
> in the document.  Currently I am only aware of Yazaki actually building
> it.
>
>
> Sincerely;
>
> Douglas A. Stansfield
> President
> www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
> 973-875-6276 (office)
> 973-670-9208 (cell)
> 973-440-1619 (fax)
>
> WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
> And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On
> Behalf
> Of joe
> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 3:43 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Plug-Connector
>
> What I meant by a potential problem is the lack of a standard - so each
> manufacturer can make their own style of connector, and nobody else will
> make anything like it, especially if it is patented. Which results in no
> competition, and means that the manufacturer can charge whatever they want
> to for the connector. That's bad news for us, the consumer!
>
> Joseph H. Strubhar
>
> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>
> E-mail: joe@...
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lee Hart" <leeahart@...>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 10:36 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Plug-Connector
>
>
>> joe wrote:
>>> AND they're non-NEMA, which is a potential problem.
>>
>> Why do you feel that will be a problem? Almost all connectors are
>> non-NEMA.  For example, the very common IEC connector found on all
>> computers and related equipment is non NEMA. However, it *is* listed by
>> UL CSA CE and many other regulatory agencies worldwide as acceptable for
>> 120v and 240v applications. Likewise, the Avcon connector and GM's
>> Magnecharger were not NEMA listed.
>>
>> --
>> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
>> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
>> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
>> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

_______________________________________________
General support: http://evdl.org/help/
Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 19:21:14 -0800
From: "Roland Wiench" <ev_7@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4s - crossbars to use when connecting 100AH
	 cells?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <BLU144-DS44CE08E7EB5CD847294FDBE9D0@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Here is a chart on copper bus bar ratings.  For aluminum bars, just double
the size.

http://www.husseycopper.com/Bar/busbarselector.htm

Roland


----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob Trahms" <rtrahms@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 6:25 PM
Subject: [EVDL] LiFePO4s - crossbars to use when connecting 100AH cells?


>
> Hi all -
>
> I was talking with a fellow EV'er over the weekend about the right
> crossbar
> connectors to use with 100ah prismatics like HiPower or Sky Energy.  He
> showed me some fairly thin looking straps (maybe 1/16" thick x1"x4"
> machined
> aluminum segments?) that he received with his cells.  We both agreed these
> seemed possibly inadequate for the job of a sustained 100-300A current
> draw.
> He then showed me some 3/8"x1"x4" machined aluminum bars he was planning
> to
> use instead.  Those will definitely work, and might qualify as 'overkill'.
>
> Just curious, what are folks using on their conversions to connect up
> LiFePO4 prismatics, especially to carry sustained currents of 100-300A?
>
> Thanks,
> Rob
> --
> View this message in context:
>
http://n4.nabble.com/LiFePO4s-crossbars-to-use-when-connecting-100AH-cells-tp786\
484p786484.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>



------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 22:23:45 -0500
From: Christopher Zach <czach@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Slightly OT: Rust prevention was Re: Start up a
	 RENTYOUR PACK OF BATTERIES store
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B0B51C1.3070905@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Chuck Hursch wrote:
> Chris,
>
> These two gutters and their drains - are you talking about the ones in
> the cowl area at the base of the windshield, where the wiper motor is
> located?  That's the only drain scene I am aware of for that part of the
> car.

That's it: They plug, water then overflows into the passenger foot well,
rusts out the floor, etc.

The biggest thing I can think of to prevent rust is to keep the water
flowing. For example there are drains in the front of the car by the
door panels. If those drains clog or leaves/organic crud lines them then
the crud will keep water against the metal and it will rust. Keep those
drains clear (with a hose and a sprayer nozzle) and it will not rust.

My car was an 84 GTI and never had rust problems. Likewise my 87 Porsche
944S is quite rust free partially because I check the drains and keep
them clear.

Chris



------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 19:30:01 -0800
From: "Peter C. Thompson" <pthompso@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4s - crossbars to use when connecting 100AH
	 cells?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B0B5339.6000804@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed

I'm using flat braided copper cable equivalent to 2/0 cable.  For the
actual connection, I'm dipping the cable into silver solder, and then
drilling a hole through the solder for the bolt.  If the cable is too
rough, a bit of hammer work will make it nice and flat.

McMasters has the cable and the solder pot and the silver solder.

Cheers,
     Peter

Rob Trahms wrote:
> Hi all -
>
> I was talking with a fellow EV'er over the weekend about the right crossbar
> connectors to use with 100ah prismatics like HiPower or Sky Energy.  He
> showed me some fairly thin looking straps (maybe 1/16" thick x1"x4" machined
> aluminum segments?) that he received with his cells.  We both agreed these
> seemed possibly inadequate for the job of a sustained 100-300A current draw.
> He then showed me some 3/8"x1"x4" machined aluminum bars he was planning to
> use instead.  Those will definitely work, and might qualify as 'overkill'.
>
> Just curious, what are folks using on their conversions to connect up
> LiFePO4 prismatics, especially to carry sustained currents of 100-300A?
>
> Thanks,
> Rob
>


--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Peter C. Thompson*
*Qualcomm, Incorporated.*     Office: +1 (858) 658-1936     Mobile: +1
(858) 692-3571
AIM: PThompson509       Yahoo!:peter_thompson       MSN:
N26688@...       Skype: PThompson509



------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 22:35:11 -0500
From: dave cover <davecover@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Grinding Noise
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <ae3bc37c0911231935y44303d7cm4b11186314f169a9@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Need some more info. Car? Transmission? Has a clutch?

How long did it take to spin down, 5 seconds or 30?

Did the noise go away when you pressed in the clutch? Put it in
neutral? Released the clutch in neutral?

Can you see the commutator and brushes? Any scoring?

With the car sitting, in neutral, does the motor make any noise when
you spin it up?

Dave Cover, with the same motor in my car.

On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 7:47 PM, Stephen Jordan <sjjordan@...> wrote:
>
> On my way in to work today, there was a noise coming from the motor that has
> me concerned. It changes tones (sometimes almost a grind, sometimes more a
> high-pitched squeal) but was loud and continuous on my ride home. ?The noise
> disappeared when i threw it into neutral at 25mi/hr and I could hear the
> motor spin down to a halt (suggesting significant friction). I've taken good
> care of the motor, never letting it overspin.
>
> Any ideas what I can do? ?I'm in medical school and just started a very
> intensive rotation today (working 12 hrs/day) so any quick-fixes would be
> appreciated!
>
> The motor is a Advanced CD FB-4001A Double Shaft Series Wound DC from EV of
> America and is about 15 months old.
> --
> View this message in context:
http://n4.nabble.com/Motor-Grinding-Noise-tp786463p786463.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>



--
http://www.evalbum.com/2149



------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 19:41:36 -0800
From: Paul Wallace <ianaudio@...>
Subject: [EVDL] I've got a few extra fans 4" water resistant 12vdc
	 with grilles
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <EA194B9D-805D-4B2E-B843-1B0EB6E865C6@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes

I've got 6 extra of the ADDA AQ1212MB-F51 fans complete with aluminum
mesh grilles.  They weigh in at about 1/2 pound each.  $18 each plus
shipping.

These are great for the water cooling kits for Zillas, especially when
the heat exchanger is in the spray line at the bottom of the front
bumper.  Also good for those truck battery boxes that are under the bed.

Paul Wallace
'94 S10 longbed under construction



------------------------------

Message: 16
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 22:47:22 -0500
From: dave cover <davecover@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4s - crossbars to use when connecting 100AH
	 cells?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <ae3bc37c0911231947l2cbd581dn79dd09d14a83ae06@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

My setup is slightly different but may give you some insight. Maybe
not. I have BB-600s, 178 in my pack. They are all connected with 1/8 x
1/2 copper busbars, 2" long. I have never had them get much above room
temperature, even after a 16 mile round trip into town with a long
uphill climb at the end.

I probably pull around 75 to 150 amps most of the trip with a few
bursts of 200-400 amps. On the big hill climb I don't push it the
whole way, but it's still working hard. Sooner or later I'll log some
data so I can see what I'm really doing.

The key thing I guess is that the busbars are short enough that they
don't have to be equivalent to the 2/0 cable running from the pack to
the controller. I imagine that if they were really limiting my current
they'd generate some heat. I have plenty of other weak links.

Dave Cover

On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 9:25 PM, Rob Trahms <rtrahms@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all -
>
> I was talking with a fellow EV'er over the weekend about the right crossbar
> connectors to use with 100ah prismatics like HiPower or Sky Energy. ?He
> showed me some fairly thin looking straps (maybe 1/16" thick x1"x4" machined
> aluminum segments?) that he received with his cells. ?We both agreed these
> seemed possibly inadequate for the job of a sustained 100-300A current draw.
> He then showed me some 3/8"x1"x4" machined aluminum bars he was planning to
> use instead. ?Those will definitely work, and might qualify as 'overkill'.
>
> Just curious, what are folks using on their conversions to connect up
> LiFePO4 prismatics, especially to carry sustained currents of 100-300A?
>
> Thanks,
> Rob
> --
> View this message in context:
http://n4.nabble.com/LiFePO4s-crossbars-to-use-when-connecting-100AH-cells-tp786\
484p786484.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>



--
http://www.evalbum.com/2149



------------------------------

Message: 17
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 20:28:56 -0800 (PST)
From: mark at evie-systems <mark@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4s - crossbars to use when connecting 100AH
	 cells?
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <1259036936512-786520.post@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


You might take a look at these:

http://evie-systems.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=44_45_46


Rob Trahms wrote:
>
> what are folks using on their conversions to connect up LiFePO4
> prismatics, especially to carry sustained currents of 100-300A?
>
> Thanks,
> Rob
>

--
View this message in context:
http://n4.nabble.com/LiFePO4s-crossbars-to-use-when-connecting-100AH-cells-tp786\
484p786520.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.



------------------------------

Message: 18
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:04:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Alan Shaw <ebug120v@...>
Subject: [EVDL] chargers
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <397621.14796.qm@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Can someone recommend a charger that will allow me to charge a single lifepo4
200ah cell?
?
Alan



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------------------------------

Message: 19
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:18:29 -0800 (PST)
From: mark at evie-systems <mark@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] chargers
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <1259039909401-786541.post@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8



Just about any of these work:

http://www.bgmicro.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=99


Alan Shaw-3 wrote:
>
> Can someone recommend a charger that will allow me to charge a single
> lifepo4 200ah cell?
> ?
> Alan
>

--
View this message in context: http://n4.nabble.com/chargers-tp786535p786541.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.



------------------------------

Message: 20
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:23:02 -0800 (PST)
From: mark at evie-systems <mark@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] chargers
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <1259040182647-786543.post@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8


More specifically, this is one that I used:

http://www.bgmicro.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=12520

You can actually do 4 cells with that if you want.  But, the point is that
you can set the upper voltage threshold (limit) and the charge operation
will just stop when the battery hits that voltage.

Be prepared to put a nice fan on the back of the power supply, however... it
gets rather hot.


Alan Shaw-3 wrote:
>
> Can someone recommend a charger that will allow me to charge a single
> lifepo4 200ah cell?
> ?
> Alan
>

--
View this message in context: http://n4.nabble.com/chargers-tp786535p786543.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.



------------------------------

Message: 21
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 22:11:07 -0800
From: cowtown@...
Subject: Re: [EVDL] chargers
To: ev@...
Message-ID:
	 <20091123221107.po89qm2og8c4swk8-pbjgbja@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes";
	 format="flowed"

<<< Can someone recommend a charger that will allow me to charge a
single lifepo4 200ah cell? >>>

With the protection of a BMS, about any 4V power supply should work;
without a BMS, better make sure you can "tune" it to finish at 3.75V.

Think more
     Talk less
        Become wise



------------------------------

Message: 22
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 00:14:40 -0600
From: Mark Farver <mfarver@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OK you-all create an alternative to the car
	 computer
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <3afaf0180911232214t211e5ebegd7ae302ba51387de@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 11:52 AM, Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...> wrote:
> ?I have been "Brought up to Speed" on what I call, "KISEVC" (that is: Keep
> It Simple EV Converters!) A philosophy similar to "KISS" I have tried to
> practice all my life. (Keep It Simple Stupid!)
>
> Here it is "From the Horses Mouth!" :
>
> ?#1. The ABS has its own "Box" so leave it alone.
Generally true... although sometimes it is the source of vehicle speed
data and tire pressure monitoring.  Be careful with it's wheel speed
sensors during disassembly and construction.  If you fault one
sometimes you can't clear the ABS code without the engine computer
present and a dealer quality scan tool.  I've seen vehicles where the
ABS system, ECU throttle control and the Dynamic Stability control
module are independent system, but communicate heavily.  Remove one
and the others start throwing codes.

> ?#2. The Airbag System is just the impact sensor and a relay, and the
> Pyrotechnic device in ? ? ? ? ? the bag, so leave all that alone too.

The SRS computer is generally monitoring a few parameters from other
vehicle systems that factor into it's decision making process. Vehicle
Speed and ABS/collision avoidance operation being the most notable
ones..  These days the SRS system is much more sophisticated than an
impact sensor and the inflation system.  There are usually several
sensors around the car to measure impact force, deaccleration
parameters, crumple zone effectiveness (measure the deaccleration of
the firewall verses the bumper), passenger seat position and weight.
This allows the system to choose what bags and pretensioners to fire,
and with different forces and timings.  In general, stay away from
yellow wire harnesses (the SAE standard color) or anything that has
yellow banding.  Follow the correct procedure for safing the system
before working near or disconnecting any SRS system component.   The
SRS system has extensive internal checks, so if the SRS/Airbag light
goes out after startup it's probably good to go.

> ?#3. When removing the ICE any wires going to a ECU box you can cut right
> off, leave the box ? ? ?as it may control the speedometer (Don't cut the
> wire going to the speed sensor or the speedometer won't work!) reconnect
> ground wires to a point near the ECU Box.

Agree (though personally I tend to replace the ECU with one of my own
design.)  Watch out for vehicles where the headlights/signals are run
across/inside the engine harness.  (I curse you GM, and want to thank
Ford/Mazda)

> .#4. Cut the wire to the "Check Motor" light and use it for some other
> function.

Can't do this anymore on many cars.. the check engine light is
generally integrated into the dash, and is activated by the engine
computer via messages on the vehicle bus.  You'll end up with always
on check engine light.  And since they switched to LEDs and sealed
instrument clusters its a lot harder to "take the bulb out."  Same
with anti-theft RFID keys too.  The reader is part of the cluster, but
the ECU does all the work.

My latest problem is a fully loaded 2010 Audi, which actually claims
on the sales spec sheet that it  has 3 sophisticated CAN circuits
(buses) for powertrain, passenger comfort and safety and infotainment.
  The computer shifted, dual clutch manual transmission commands the
engine to blank the throttle (inhibit the injectors) whenever its
shifting (8ms shift time!!).  The ABS, ECU and transmission
communicate together to control deacceleration, using a combination of
braking and downshifting.  I've just started, but I suspect it will
prove interesting, and maybe impossible.



Mark Farver
REVOLT Custom Electric Vehicles
Austin, TX
Parts store now open: http://www.revoltevc.com/



------------------------------

Message: 23
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 02:54:22 -0800
From: "Joseph Ashwood" <ashwood@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] super caps or vaporware
To: <ev@...>
Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP14D64256689C5B0E9AF2DCAC9D0@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original

--------------------------------------------------
From: "K O" <visualeyes108@...>
Subject: [EVDL] super caps or vaporware

> It may be vaporware, but Pinafarina has a sweet looking model being
> built[?] in France called le Blu car
> I saw it in Paris but though there was more technical information on its
> tech on display it was completely locked down with fashion model
> presenters who knew nothing about the tech..At last you could sit in the
> other models!  The only real vehicles were the EV trucks..the Modec being
> one of them....

http://www.pininfarina.com/index/storiaModelli/Pininfarina-BlueCar.html has
official statements. Selected quotes:
Pininfarina and Bollor? set up a 50-50 joint venture
forerunner of the vehicle which will go into production in ... 2010
forecast output by 2015 being about 60,000
LMP (Lythium Metal Polymere) batteries


paraphrased by me
regen fills ultracaps provided by Bollore
150 mile range on a charge


Now the problems:
Pininfarina is not known as a manufacturer, although they do some production
for a few vehicles (mostly Alfa Romeo) this looks like it will be their
first own-brand production
This is also Bollore's first vehicle production

Cool to see a new competitor, and I have always loved the Pininfarina
designs, but the lack of production experience worries me. Expect delays.

As for the ultracaps. I'm very optimistic about them, just not necessarily
as a main battery. Ultracaps work great for storing small amounts of energy
with storing and retrieval happening very fast. Ultracaps are not so great
at storing huge quantities of energy in a small space. EESTOR is the only
company claiming any differently, and their patent (US Patent #7,466,536)
claims don't support their ultracap claims. The patent prototypes got 600
Wh/l, the EESTOR claim is 1500 Wh/l. Patent prototype is half the weight of
Li-ion per capacity, and 80% the volume per capacity. I wish them good luck,
but I suspect they have the foot-mouth wedgie.
                     Joe



------------------------------

Message: 24
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 06:35:04 -0500
From: bearlkbob@...
Subject: [EVDL] Hopefull answers to "oil crash"
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <8CC3B114D09E455-1E60-96A@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Read this article about an interesting inventor from Motor City.     
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/24/opinion/24herbert.html?_r=1&hp

The dire predictions are about oil, the hope is in  "alternative" energy.

Bob Polgreen
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------------------------------

Message: 25
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 03:48:36 -0800 (PST)
From: Stephen Jordan <sjjordan@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Grinding Noise
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <1259063316045-786732.post@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8


Thanks for the reply.

It's a 94 Saturn, manual transmission, clutch-less.

It took about 5-8 seconds to spin down when I put it in neutral going down a
hill.  I did this because I suspected increased friction as the car also has
a been coasting very poorly.

YES.  The noise was there when I put it in neutral and spun the motor.  And
it would quickly slow down when I released the throttle.

I can't see the commutator or brushes. Not sure what scoring is, but I
looked under the car last night and there was no damage, obvious wear and
tear.

Thanks again!


dave cover-2 wrote:
>
> Need some more info. Car? Transmission? Has a clutch?
>
> How long did it take to spin down, 5 seconds or 30?
>
> Did the noise go away when you pressed in the clutch? Put it in
> neutral? Released the clutch in neutral?
>
> Can you see the commutator and brushes? Any scoring?
>
> With the car sitting, in neutral, does the motor make any noise when
> you spin it up?
>
> Dave Cover, with the same motor in my car.
>
> On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 7:47 PM, Stephen Jordan <sjjordan@...>
> wrote:
>>
>> On my way in to work today, there was a noise coming from the motor that
>> has
>> me concerned. It changes tones (sometimes almost a grind, sometimes more
>> a
>> high-pitched squeal) but was loud and continuous on my ride home. ?The
>> noise
>> disappeared when i threw it into neutral at 25mi/hr and I could hear the
>> motor spin down to a halt (suggesting significant friction). I've taken
>> good
>> care of the motor, never letting it overspin.
>>
>> Any ideas what I can do? ?I'm in medical school and just started a very
>> intensive rotation today (working 12 hrs/day) so any quick-fixes would be
>> appreciated!
>>
>> The motor is a Advanced CD FB-4001A Double Shaft Series Wound DC from EV
>> of
>> America and is about 15 months old.
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://n4.nabble.com/Motor-Grinding-Noise-tp786463p786463.html
>> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
>> Nabble.com.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> http://www.evalbum.com/2149
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
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>
>
>

--
View this message in context:
http://n4.nabble.com/Motor-Grinding-Noise-tp786463p786732.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.



------------------------------

Message: 26
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 08:09:26 -0500
From: dave cover <davecover@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Grinding Noise
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <ae3bc37c0911240509p1c3d7996ie6b55921d2d36d65@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

5-8 seconds sounds way to short. Mine will spin quite a while when I
put it in neutral. If possible you need to put your eyes on the
commutator and brushes. If they look good, the next culprit would be
the bearings. It's a simple fix, but it means pulling the motor. Can
you spin the motor by hand? If you can, turn it slowly and see how it
feels and sounds. (You can also blip it with the controller and watch
it spin down.) A bad bearing will usually make a grinding kind of
noise and feel rough. Also, you should pull the springs off the
brushes so they don't interfere. They don't need to come off, just
pulled back and set onto their perch on the brush holder. Normal
brushes will resist movement a little bit (when turning by hand) and
make a slight scratchy kind of noise.

On the other side of the coin, a bearing may feel Ok when cool but act
up when driving down the road.

Another thing to consider is the pilot bearing if you have one. But
this doesn't make sense if the noise goes away when you put the car in
neutral. Also doesn't make sense if the motor spins down quickly while
moving down the road. If you get a bearing noise when spinning by
hand, make sure it's coming from the motor and not the rest of the
drive train. Is this a front wheel drive Saturn?

How about accessories? Do you have anything on the other end of the
motor? Power steering pump, alternator, vacuum pump, etc.?

And I wouldn't drive it until you get a better idea of where the
problem is coming from. Get one of those simple stethoscopes, it will
help pinpoint the noise pretty quickly.

Where are you located? Is your car up on EVAlbum? Pictures would be great.

Dave Cover

On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 6:48 AM, Stephen Jordan <sjjordan@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the reply.
>
> It's a 94 Saturn, manual transmission, clutch-less.
>
> It took about 5-8 seconds to spin down when I put it in neutral going down a
> hill. ?I did this because I suspected increased friction as the car also has
> a been coasting very poorly.
>
> YES. ?The noise was there when I put it in neutral and spun the motor. ?And
> it would quickly slow down when I released the throttle.
>
> I can't see the commutator or brushes. Not sure what scoring is, but I
> looked under the car last night and there was no damage, obvious wear and
> tear.
>
> Thanks again!
>
>
> dave cover-2 wrote:
>>
>> Need some more info. Car? Transmission? Has a clutch?
>>
>> How long did it take to spin down, 5 seconds or 30?
>>
>> Did the noise go away when you pressed in the clutch? Put it in
>> neutral? Released the clutch in neutral?
>>
>> Can you see the commutator and brushes? Any scoring?
>>
>> With the car sitting, in neutral, does the motor make any noise when
>> you spin it up?
>>
>> Dave Cover, with the same motor in my car.
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 7:47 PM, Stephen Jordan <sjjordan@...>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On my way in to work today, there was a noise coming from the motor that
>>> has
>>> me concerned. It changes tones (sometimes almost a grind, sometimes more
>>> a
>>> high-pitched squeal) but was loud and continuous on my ride home. ?The
>>> noise
>>> disappeared when i threw it into neutral at 25mi/hr and I could hear the
>>> motor spin down to a halt (suggesting significant friction). I've taken
>>> good
>>> care of the motor, never letting it overspin.
>>>
>>> Any ideas what I can do? ?I'm in medical school and just started a very
>>> intensive rotation today (working 12 hrs/day) so any quick-fixes would be
>>> appreciated!
>>>
>>> The motor is a Advanced CD FB-4001A Double Shaft Series Wound DC from EV
>>> of
>>> America and is about 15 months old.
>>> --
>>> View this message in context:
>>> http://n4.nabble.com/Motor-Grinding-Noise-tp786463p786463.html
>>> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
>>> Nabble.com.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>>> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>>> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> http://www.evalbum.com/2149
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
http://n4.nabble.com/Motor-Grinding-Noise-tp786463p786732.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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>
>



--
http://www.evalbum.com/2149



------------------------------

Message: 27
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 08:33:17 -0600
From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4s - crossbars to use when connecting 100AH
	 cells?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B0BEEAD.2040007@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Rob Trahms wrote:
> I was talking with a fellow EV'er over the weekend about the right crossbar
> connectors to use with 100ah prismatics like HiPower or Sky Energy.  He
> showed me some fairly thin looking straps (maybe 1/16" thick x1"x4" machined
> aluminum segments?) that he received with his cells.  We both agreed these
> seemed possibly inadequate for the job of a sustained 100-300A current draw.
> He then showed me some 3/8"x1"x4" machined aluminum bars he was planning to
> use instead.  Those will definitely work, and might qualify as 'overkill'.

Aluminum strikes me as a poor choice for an electrical connector. There
are plenty of examples of what can go wrong. If one really must use
aluminum, special techniques are needed to improve reliability.

Aluminum has three bad features. 1) It forms a hard insulating oxide
coating on contact with air. 2) It cold flows under pressure. 3) It has
a large expansion coefficient with temperature.

Suppose you simply clamp two pieces of aluminum together with a bolt.
The oxide layer on the parts means only a tiny portion of the apparent
surface area is actually making contact. When you run high current, it
heats up. The aluminum expands. The bolt won't "give", so the aluminum
extrudes out the sides to relieve the pressure.

When the connection cools, the aluminum shrinks. Now the connection is
looser. Air gets in, and further oxidizes the surfaces, worsening the
connection. On the next high current cycle, it gets hotter, flows some
more, shrinks again, oxidizes some more, etc. This process continues
until the connection fails.

Since aluminum has a low melting point and burns, the failure can be
spectacular. Arcs, fires, flowing molten metal, etc.

Here are some techniques used to make good connections in aluminum:

   - Weld the aluminum parts together.
   - Plate the aluminum with some other metal that won't corrode.
   - Clamp it with extreme pressure, to seriously deform the aluminum
     and "cold weld" the parts together.
   - Or, clamp it with something that applies spring pressure to maintain
     contact pressure despite expansion/contraction and cold flow.
   - Apply some kind of grease to exclude air and water from the
     connection.
--
Lee A. Hart  | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N  | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen



------------------------------

Message: 28
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 06:45:40 -0800
From: "Roland Wiench" <ev_7@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] super caps or vaporware
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <BLU144-DS75CB3237EE3C6EC69D810BE9D0@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

You have to remember there is a difference between super capacitors and
ultra capacitors.  The super capacitors are double layer and have a
electrolyte like a Ni-Cad battery.  They have a much longer run time than
ultra capacitors which are use normally for REGEN.

Some time ago, I contacted ESMA about there traction type 2700 Farid super
capacitors to be able to run a 7000 lb vehicle at least 20 miles.  The
number and size of these units, I could only get half as many for 10 miles
for $40,000.00 for my lifetime and takes 15 minutes to charge them.

My average battery cost is $2150.00 per every ten years and takes 15 minutes
to charge them.

Roland


----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Ashwood" <ashwood@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 2:54 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] super caps or vaporware


--------------------------------------------------
From: "K O" <visualeyes108@...>
Subject: [EVDL] super caps or vaporware

> It may be vaporware, but Pinafarina has a sweet looking model being
> built[?] in France called le Blu car
> I saw it in Paris but though there was more technical information on its
> tech on display it was completely locked down with fashion model
> presenters who knew nothing about the tech..At last you could sit in the
> other models!  The only real vehicles were the EV trucks..the Modec being
> one of them....

http://www.pininfarina.com/index/storiaModelli/Pininfarina-BlueCar.html has
official statements. Selected quotes:
Pininfarina and Bollor? set up a 50-50 joint venture
forerunner of the vehicle which will go into production in ... 2010
forecast output by 2015 being about 60,000
LMP (Lythium Metal Polymere) batteries


paraphrased by me
regen fills ultracaps provided by Bollore
150 mile range on a charge


Now the problems:
Pininfarina is not known as a manufacturer, although they do some production
for a few vehicles (mostly Alfa Romeo) this looks like it will be their
first own-brand production
This is also Bollore's first vehicle production

Cool to see a new competitor, and I have always loved the Pininfarina
designs, but the lack of production experience worries me. Expect delays.

As for the ultracaps. I'm very optimistic about them, just not necessarily
as a main battery. Ultracaps work great for storing small amounts of energy
with storing and retrieval happening very fast. Ultracaps are not so great
at storing huge quantities of energy in a small space. EESTOR is the only
company claiming any differently, and their patent (US Patent #7,466,536)
claims don't support their ultracap claims. The patent prototypes got 600
Wh/l, the EESTOR claim is 1500 Wh/l. Patent prototype is half the weight of
Li-ion per capacity, and 80% the volume per capacity. I wish them good luck,
but I suspect they have the foot-mouth wedgie.
                     Joe

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------------------------------

Message: 29
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 10:05:46 -0500
From: "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4s - crossbars to use when connecting 100AH
	 cells?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <021C887E766E45B0B47C591268B1C22E@adminwlzisp2uc>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original

   Hi EVerybody;

   Aluminum? Forgetaboutit as a conductor, as Lee sez! It looks great on a
train or plane, but Aluminum WIRE has been BANNED in home wiring, for years!
I have a cable run of #6 aluminum and last year I lost my 240 volts in the
outer  garage. Opened my E box and found that ONE side  of the 240 melted
out of the breaker, NO smoke, etc, but it burned FREE of the screw terminal!
A new breaker, cutting back the cable and TIGHTNING it down 'til it shreaked
for mercy, seemed to do the trick, NOW I tighten often!It COULDA been worse?
Only used it, that line for EV charging,lites etc.

     Just my two watts worth.

      Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <leeahart@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4s - crossbars to use when connecting 100AH cells?


> Rob Trahms wrote:
>> I was talking with a fellow EV'er over the weekend about the right
>> crossbar
>> connectors to use with 100ah prismatics like HiPower or Sky Energy.  He
>> showed me some fairly thin looking straps (maybe 1/16" thick x1"x4"
>> machined
>> aluminum segments?) that he received with his cells.  We both agreed
>> these
>> seemed possibly inadequate for the job of a sustained 100-300A current
>> draw.
>> He then showed me some 3/8"x1"x4" machined aluminum bars he was planning
>> to
>> use instead.  Those will definitely work, and might qualify as
>> 'overkill'.
>
> Aluminum strikes me as a poor choice for an electrical connector. There
> are plenty of examples of what can go wrong. If one really must use
> aluminum, special techniques are needed to improve reliability.
>
> Aluminum has three bad features. 1) It forms a hard insulating oxide
> coating on contact with air. 2) It cold flows under pressure. 3) It has
> a large expansion coefficient with temperature.
>
> Suppose you simply clamp two pieces of aluminum together with a bolt.
> The oxide layer on the parts means only a tiny portion of the apparent
> surface area is actually making contact. When you run high current, it
> heats up. The aluminum expands. The bolt won't "give", so the aluminum
> extrudes out the sides to relieve the pressure.
>
> When the connection cools, the aluminum shrinks. Now the connection is
> looser. Air gets in, and further oxidizes the surfaces, worsening the
> connection. On the next high current cycle, it gets hotter, flows some
> more, shrinks again, oxidizes some more, etc. This process continues
> until the connection fails.
>
> Since aluminum has a low melting point and burns, the failure can be
> spectacular. Arcs, fires, flowing molten metal, etc.
>
> Here are some techniques used to make good connections in aluminum:
>
>  - Weld the aluminum parts together.
>  - Plate the aluminum with some other metal that won't corrode.
>  - Clamp it with extreme pressure, to seriously deform the aluminum
>    and "cold weld" the parts together.
>  - Or, clamp it with something that applies spring pressure to maintain
>    contact pressure despite expansion/contraction and cold flow.
>  - Apply some kind of grease to exclude air and water from the
>    connection.
> --
> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



------------------------------

_______________________________________________
EV@...
For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



End of EV Digest, Vol 28, Issue 35
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Today's Topics:

    1. Re: Charger plug/socket, an' Stuff (Bob Rice)
    2. EV Plug-Connector (Roland Wiench)
    3. Re: Charger plug/socket, an' Stuff (joe)
    4. Re: EV Plug-Connector (joe)
    5. Re: EV Plug-Connector (Lee Hart)
    6. Re: Charger plug/socket (Rick Beebe)
    7. Re: EV Plug-Connector (John G. Lussmyer)
    8.  Charger plug/socket (phil galati)
    9. Re: EV Plug-Connector (dave cover)
   10. Re: EV Plug-Connector (John G. Lussmyer)
   11. Re: Charger plug/socket (EVDL Administrator)
   12. Re: Charger plug/socket (John G. Lussmyer)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 12:08:31 -0500
From: "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket, an' Stuff
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <173929EC06274D4D935CDB7126FA9071@adminwlzisp2uc>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original

  Jack and taped over the junction crack with
> electrical tape every time, It corroded inside the plug where the wires
> were
> attached... (It's a No Win Scenario. Like the Kobayashi-Maru.)

      Got ya <g>?! Had to Wacki-pedia the Kobayashi Maru, it COULDA run afoul
of the Kingons, etc? NOT a Japanese Cruise Ship? Sigh! Sounds like a nice
"boat" as delivered? Ships? Not just the Titanic, anymore?! Titanic~ DID
work as intended. Most of the trip.

    Sea ya?

     Bob, SHIP buff, too.
>
>>  Regards,
>>
>>     Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
>>  Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
>>  Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
>>        Phone (863) 289 - 0690
>>
>>  "We provide Mentoring, Small Group Instruction, and Hands-On training
>>  for the EV Technicians: Building, Converting, Repairing, and Servicing
>>  the Electric Vehicles of Today, and the Future."
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------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 09:34:48 -0800
From: "Roland Wiench" <ev_7@...>
Subject: [EVDL] EV Plug-Connector
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <BLU144-DS15FDD7D7179EE9C30456CBE9E0@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

The plug and connector that I am using and it's the same device that was
install in 1980 and still going, is a Danial Woodhead 30 amp 120/208 V
4-wire NON-NEMA type. The Plug No. 28W09 and the Connector No. is 29W09.

They come with a watertight strain relief which will take cable sizes  No.
AWG 10 to 6 4-conductor type SO cable.

It is a watertight connector-plug which is normally use to connect two large
cables together that can lay on the wet ground.  I install the connector in
a Power Anderson aluminum housing that has a flange for a watertight 2 gang
Bell Co. hinge cover.  The back of this plug-connector has a large cable-box
connector that can attach to a hole in the back of the housing.

The flange of this housing is than bolted to any flat structure or chassis
plate that is mounted behind the gas door.  When I open the gas door, it
also opens the watertight connector cover.

I bought this combination unit back in 1980 for about $25.00 and a spare
unit.  Today these devices cost over $100.00 and that is the wholesale cost.

Roland





------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 10:22:32 -0800
From: "joe" <joe@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket, an' Stuff
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <98F138086F1C41BFAE936FE77AC9B19A@Sales>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original

I did that on the Mustang, Bob - used a 3" x 1-1/2" electrical reducing
washer, and mounted the flanged inlet (that's what the industry calls them
buggers you were thinking about!) on it,  cut off  the filler pipe behind
the flange and mounted the whole thing back where it was before, where the
gas cap twists on.

When I get my website updated (sometime this winter hopefully!), I'll post
pictures of everything that I did on the Mustang. In the meantime, if anyone
wants me to email them pictures offlist, I'll be glad to do that.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: joe@...


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 7:35 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket, an' Stuff


>  Hi EVerybody;
>
>   While digging through my EV junque stuff, I found a GREAT old socket. I
> put it to use on Mike O's S-10, my signiture plug-in-gas-filler setup. Was
> thinking" Wonder IF they STILL make these things? It 's a round recessed
> plug, in a sorta cup, with two ears for a bolt on each side to hold it in.
> Behind it has setscrews to attach yur hot wires and ground. I THINK it
> came
> from a parted out EFP rig, about 35 YEARS ago. All I needed was a flat
> plate
> mounted to the filler hole and the plug was recessed, already! No having
> to
> hunt down JUST the right size small mixer bowl, or feeding S.S. bowl to
> mount a male plug on.
>
>   Just thought I'd bring it up, since we're into a plug diss-cussion theme
> here?
>
>     Other Shit; Mike is just gunna get his tags as a Stock S-10, gas
> powered, so we can DRIVE with a free consience. Deal with the "Electric
> Issue" when he gets his notice that he hasta get "Smogged" It WILL be a
> grace period of several months? Until He'll hafta "Fess up" that the S-10
> is
> ELECTYRIC. soo He'll have some test and tune, or tul the truk gets USED to
> him, or is it the OTHER way around?We want to see it go down the road, or
> Woo Hoo! ANOTHER EV hits the Road!Or I've met my Non G.M . threatening
> one-a-year production rate!
>
>    Seeya
>
>     Bob,   MORE below
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dennis Miles" <dmiles33810@...>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 9:49 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket
>
>
>> On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 7:27 AM, Andrew Wood <ajwood@...> wrote:
>>
>>> Douglas, Dennis
>>>
>>> I was meaning to go on the EV body itself.  That one on Amazon is the
>>> sort of thing, but is there a better range of them somewhere?  WHat
>>> about inductive ones?
>>>
>>> Andrew
>
>    Andrew? Aren't you in the UK? I'll guess that UK has a WHOLE different
> Code setup than here in the Colonies? You just DON'T do 120 volts? ALL
> home
> stuff in UK and PROBABLY Europe is nice, handy 240 volts fuzed for 13
> amps.
> THIS, I think would be simplifying the whole wiring question? You get used
> to lottsa 240 volts stuff around the house? Radio, Electric Blanket,
> toothbrush, cell fone charger, etc?
>
>     Bob
>>> =======================EV side is a different Puppy..================
>>>
>>
>> Because the "Electrical Code" treats the EV's Charger as an appliance.
>>
>> I would send you shopping at the RV or Yacht supply stores, they have
>> reliable equipment proven in years of use.
>>
>> The Right choice is dependent upon the input of your Charger;  110, or
>> 115,
>> or 120 or 208, 220, or 240 ACV. And at what current; 10 to 50 AC Amps?
>> These will determine how big the conductors have to be and how many wires
>> are in the cable sheath. Are you using different cables for 120v. at 12A.
>> for Opportunity Charging versus 208V. at 24A for at home?  Or just an
>> "Adapter" with plug and jack attached to a foot long piece of cable, for
>> 120v. and don't use it for 208V. at home. Also how long of a cable will
>> you
>> need?
>>
>>                                      <<WHat about inductive ones?>> you
>> asked.
>>
>> The Inductive couplings require Expensive Electronic "Adapters" at the
>> park
>> and charge location and in the EV because it is very inefficient at 50 or
>> 60
>> Hertz. Also It isn't portable in its present form.
>
>   Or AFFORDABLE. You just KNOW that, likr batteries for portable tool NO
> two will be created equil!
>
>> Have you asked the members at the local EV club? How about at a nearby RV
>> Supply for their recommendations?  The $ 300,000 Bus Conversion RV owners
>> are likely to have an elegant solution.
>
>   I took the chord by the plug and just set "MY" standard as a 14-50 NEMA
> 240 volt plug, installed on MY charge station, on the house wall, by the E
> service drop.AND a 120 volt wall plug like ALL over my house and garage.
> The
> one we have for about 100 years! That they aren't convenient to parking
> areas is an ongoing issue?  HowEVer I WOULD like to see the RV 240 volt
> plug
> adapted as THE EV standard, however, as Jack Gretta used to say;"
> Standard??
> WHICH one would ya like?" I BUILT it ,IF they will come? A variation of
> "IF
> you Build it, they will Come" A Tesla? In Corrupticut? It's possable?A Rav
> or Mini? Cars with SERIOUS ranges.
>
>> There are many solutions you will have to decide which is best for you.
>>
>> I want something simple and secure, so I don't have to sit there on a
>> folding chair with a shotgun in my lap to keep away the "Copper Thieves."
>> My
>> solution is; I don't put a connector on the EV, I run the wire thru a
>> grommet lined hole under the fuel door, and clamp it on inside.
>>
>> Then when I unplug,  I just push the wire inside the trunk where it falls
>> into a plastic bucket (Mostly) and lock the fuel door closed. The next
>> time
>> I want to use it I unlock and open the fuel door and pull as much cord as
>> I
>> need out. If it seems short I open the trunk and untangle it...  (This
>> has
>> been my solution on my Motor Home since 1998 also.)
>>
>> This way some "Low Life " doesn't unplug both ends and take it away a
>> $275
>> cord set, to sell!
>
>  This sorta low life MIGHT be scared off by a few" Danger million OHMs"
> signs. Volts Dolts Ohms Smolms All prety much the same to THEM<G> They
> drop
> the hood and run off, especially in Detoilet, Electricity and BIG dogs can
> work their magic!
>
>   I'm afraid THIS will be an EV issue in our major shitties, er, Citys,
> The
> ones that are on the news with nightly drive-by-shootings; Charging in the
> wondeful urban environment all the hidiously expensive prices of heavy
> enough 'stench cords, to get a meaningful amount of juice? Maybe for the
> larcenous parking fees in , say, NYC, you MIGHT get some juice, too?
>
>> Good Luck, hope this was Interesting.
>
>   Especially the coming responses?
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>    Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
>> Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
>> Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
>>       Phone (863) 289 - 0690
>>
>> "We provide Mentoring, Small Group Instruction, and Hands-On training
>> for the EV Technicians: Building, Converting, Repairing, and Servicing
>> the Electric Vehicles of Today, and the Future."
>> -------------- next part --------------
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>>
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t.html
>> _______________________________________________
>> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 10:25:35 -0800
From: "joe" <joe@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Plug-Connector
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <0D50C5909B8749C29C3FA70B0CD94DE0@Sales>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=response

AND they're non-NEMA, which is a potential problem.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: joe@...


----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <ev_7@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 9:34 AM
Subject: [EVDL] EV Plug-Connector


> The plug and connector that I am using and it's the same device that was
> install in 1980 and still going, is a Danial Woodhead 30 amp 120/208 V
> 4-wire NON-NEMA type. The Plug No. 28W09 and the Connector No. is 29W09.
>
> They come with a watertight strain relief which will take cable sizes  No.
> AWG 10 to 6 4-conductor type SO cable.
>
> It is a watertight connector-plug which is normally use to connect two
> large cables together that can lay on the wet ground.  I install the
> connector in a Power Anderson aluminum housing that has a flange for a
> watertight 2 gang Bell Co. hinge cover.  The back of this plug-connector
> has a large cable-box connector that can attach to a hole in the back of
> the housing.
>
> The flange of this housing is than bolted to any flat structure or chassis
> plate that is mounted behind the gas door.  When I open the gas door, it
> also opens the watertight connector cover.
>
> I bought this combination unit back in 1980 for about $25.00 and a spare
> unit.  Today these devices cost over $100.00 and that is the wholesale
> cost.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 12:36:08 -0600
From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Plug-Connector
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B0AD618.4000404@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

joe wrote:
> AND they're non-NEMA, which is a potential problem.

Why do you feel that will be a problem? Almost all connectors are
non-NEMA.  For example, the very common IEC connector found on all
computers and related equipment is non NEMA. However, it *is* listed by
UL CSA CE and many other regulatory agencies worldwide as acceptable for
120v and 240v applications. Likewise, the Avcon connector and GM's
Magnecharger were not NEMA listed.

--
Lee A. Hart  | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N  | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 14:06:12 -0500
From: Rick Beebe <rick@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B0ADD24.8090104@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Dennis Miles wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 7:27 AM, Andrew Wood <ajwood@...> wrote:
>
>> Douglas, Dennis
>>
>> I was meaning to go on the EV body itself.  That one on Amazon is the
>> sort of thing, but is there a better range of them somewhere?  WHat
>> about inductive ones?
>>
>> Andrew
>> =======================EV side is a different Puppy..================
>>
>
> Because the "Electrical Code" treats the EV's Charger as an appliance.
>
> I would send you shopping at the RV or Yacht supply stores, they have
> reliable equipment proven in years of use.

And since RVers think of themselves as Land Yachting, Google for "RV
Shore Power" and you'll come up with all sorts of things.

Such as http://www.braingarage.com/Dons/Travels/RV%20tech/shore%20power.html

--Rick



------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 09:52:18 -0800
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <Cougar@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Plug-Connector
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B0ACBD2.4090907@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

>From one of my msgs, long ago...

For those of you with PFC50's and who want good plugs.
> The CS6364 ($40) and CS6365 ($30) twistlocks units are on sale at
> http://www.bestmaterials.com/detail.aspx?ID=16633
>



------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 13:09:37 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
From: "phil galati" <philgalati2004@...>
Subject: [EVDL]  Charger plug/socket
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B0ACFE1.000019.27444@DADSCOMPUTER>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Are you kidding????

We use these plugs on our ambulance squad and have been for some time.

We are trying to keep the cost of an EV reasonable and low cost. For most
people
This part would be excessive.

Doug's $20 receptacle seems much more reasonable than a $73 + one.

Phil Galati
Trans Atlantic Electric Vehicles
New Jersey

-------Original Message-------

From: EVDL Administrator
Date: 11/23/2009 11:11:42 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket

How about something like this?

http://www.kussmaul.com/auto%20and%20air%20ejects%20index.html

If the URL doesn't work, open the base address, then view Fire and Emergency
Products, then Auto Ejectors.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 14:17:15 -0500
From: dave cover <davecover@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Plug-Connector
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <ae3bc37c0911231117u6c05bee1s9168f7f21c3fab8b@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Do they make a flanged version of the male (CS6365) plug? I have a
regular twist lock in my car and it seems too flimsy. This looks like
it would give more support to the heavy cord hanging from it when the
car is plugged in.

Dave Cover

On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 12:52 PM, John G. Lussmyer
<Cougar@...> wrote:
> >From one of my msgs, long ago...
>
> For those of you with PFC50's and who want good plugs.
>> The CS6364 ($40) and CS6365 ($30) twistlocks units are on sale at
>> http://www.bestmaterials.com/detail.aspx?ID=16633
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>



--
http://www.evalbum.com/2149



------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 11:29:09 -0800
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <Cougar@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Plug-Connector
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B0AE285.7040401@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Yes, that's what I used on my truck.  I have a flanged plug under the
gas cap, and the socket on the 6/4 cord.
I may have found the flanged plug on ebay.

dave cover wrote:
> Do they make a flanged version of the male (CS6365) plug? I have a
> regular twist lock in my car and it seems too flimsy. This looks like
> it would give more support to the heavy cord hanging from it when the
> car is plugged in.
>
> Dave Cover
>
> On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 12:52 PM, John G. Lussmyer
> <Cougar@...> wrote:
>
>> >From one of my msgs, long ago...
>>
>> For those of you with PFC50's and who want good plugs.
>>
>>> The CS6364 ($40) and CS6365 ($30) twistlocks units are on sale at
>>> http://www.bestmaterials.com/detail.aspx?ID=16633
>>>



------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 14:29:16 -0500
From: "EVDL Administrator" <evpost@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B0A9C3C.11435.D79DD9@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

On 23 Nov 2009 at 13:09, phil galati wrote:

> Are you kidding????

Heck no.  Well, at least not THIS time.  ;-)

Actually, I've never priced them.  I thought they looked pretty useful when
I ran across them a few years ago, and bookmarked the page.

But even at $70 or more, they might be worth looking at, especially after
the second or third time you've driven off with the charging cable still
attached to the car.

Yes, there are other ways to prevent that problem, but this one struck me as
a pretty cool one.  When you key on the EV's power, it automagically ejects
the charging plug.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" an "etpost" addresses will not
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =




------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 11:37:55 -0800
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <Cougar@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B0AE493.8000509@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

EVDL Administrator wrote:
> Yes, there are other ways to prevent that problem, but this one struck me as
> a pretty cool one.  When you key on the EV's power, it automagically ejects
> the charging plug.
>
I just use the Zilla plug-in feature to detect the Gas Cap door is open.
Car won't move while it's plugged in - even if no power is provided.




------------------------------

_______________________________________________
EV@...
For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



End of EV Digest, Vol 28, Issue 34
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Today's Topics:

    1. Li Ion cell dynamic impedance calculations (Paul Wallace)
    2. Anyone need a set of Silvania X5064 HID upgrade headlights?
       (Paul Wallace)
    3. Re: Vectrix - Decisions decisions - help needed (Matt Lacey)
    4. Re: MPG to wh/mile? (John)
    5. Re: MPG to wh/mile? (cowtown@...)
    6. Re: A 2006 movie....If you haven't already seen it you
       should.... (Seth Rothenberg)
    7. Re: 2006 Movie.....If you haven't seen it....You should....
       (Dave Hymers)
    8. Re: A 2006 movie....If you haven't already seen it you
       should.... (Dennis Miles)
    9. Re: 2006 Movie.....If you haven't seen it....You should....
       (Ole-Egil Hvitmyren)
   10. Re: Charger plug/socket (Andrew Wood)
   11. Re: MPG to wh/mile? (Phil Marino)
   12. Re: Charger plug/socket (Dennis Miles)
   13. Re: Charger plug/socket (Douglas A. Stansfield)
   14. Re: Charger plug/socket (Dennis Miles)
   15. Re: Charger plug/socket (joe)
   16. Re: A 2006 movie....If you haven't already seen it you
       should.... (Dave Hymers)
   17. Re: Charger plug/socket (Douglas A. Stansfield)
   18. Re: Charger plug/socket, an' Stuff (Bob Rice)
   19. Re: Charger plug/socket (Dennis Miles)
   20. Re: Charger plug/socket (EVDL Administrator)
   21. Re: Charger plug/socket, an' Stuff. Followup. (Bob Rice)
   22. Re: Charger plug/socket, an' Stuff (Dennis Miles)
   23. Re: Charger plug/socket (Bob Rice)
   24. Re: Charger plug/socket (Bob Rice)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 12:33:48 -0800
From: Paul Wallace <ianaudio@...>
Subject: [EVDL] Li Ion cell dynamic impedance calculations
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <29D9CC95-4630-45FC-9DC5-365B66CDD28D@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes

Robbie Robinson collected some data for me using his BMS on one
typical cell in his pack of 76 ThunderSky cells as follows:

       A                    V
        13.5                3.301
        20                    3.285
       40                    3.235
        60                    3.180
        80                    3.151
        100                  3.115
        122                  3.091
        153                  3.010

battery temp was 24C

I used the 20a and 153a readings to calculate a dynamic impedance of:

(3.285-3.010)/(153-20)=0.275/133=2.1e-03 ohms

and the power dissipated at 153a would then be 153*153*2.1e-03
=48.4watts per cell

I don't see any reason why the Sky Energy cells would be much
different from this, although I have no data to back up this assumption.

At any rate, for my 96 100ah SE cells, using the calculated
resistance, the pack will be dissipating about 500w at 50amps and
about 8kw at 200amps, gettin' over the hill type currents.

Looks like a little air motion in the battery box is in order while
the pack is under load.  The BMS is measuring the temperature of the
cells and will turn the fans on as needed.

One other comment Robbie made was that heater pads definitely improved
the performance of the cells after a cold night in the garage in
central California.  Anyone have experience and recommendations for
heater pads for these cells?

Paul Wallace
'94 S10 longbed under construction



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 12:47:21 -0800
From: Paul Wallace <ianaudio@...>
Subject: [EVDL] Anyone need a set of Silvania X5064 HID upgrade
	 headlights?
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <979AA1DA-7414-45F1-9BA7-A29F00C11DE4@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes

Amazing what I'm finding as I go through old stuff in the garage.

I've got a brand new, never installed set of Silvania X5064 HID
headlights.  These are the DOT approved 7" rectangular dual beams
which will fit all S10 and similar up to '94.  In 1994, the S10 body
style changed and GM went to the 4666 lamps, so I can't use these.
They are direct replacements for the sealed beam 5064 type bulb.  They
have an real HID low beam and a xenon high beam.  The lamp modules are
acrylic, not glass.

If you would like to upgrade your 7" dual beams, shoot me an email and
we can talk.

Paul Wallace
'94 S10 longbed under construction



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 05:13:20 +0900
From: "Matt Lacey" <mc.lacey@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vectrix - Decisions decisions - help needed
To: <chris@...>, "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'"
	 <ev@...>
Message-ID: <08bc01ca6bb0$3c9982b0$0a01a8c0@mattlaptop2>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi Chris,

Like you, I saw the cheap Vectrix on sale.
I bought mine 3 weeks ago for AUS$5000
I have since put about 1500km on it.

Id say buy.
The scooter is well made.
The battery does take some getting used to, nimh is a PITA.
Don't trust the fuel guage.
Rely on about 30km range.

Have a look at Miks handbook on the visforvoltage.org forums

Matt

-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
Of chris
Sent: Friday, 20 November 2009 6:59 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] Vectrix - Decisions decisions - help needed

As you guys may know - vectrix have gone fairly belly-up although they have
offers of purchasers and hesketh motorcycles have bought the rights to
resell under the name of Hesketh in the uk.

Now... there are numerous reports of problems with these motorbikes in from
various people around the world including weak cells in the battery string
to main fuses blowing (this fuse is completely inaccessible without about
30-45 mins of dismantling) and issues such as less than half of the battery
range quoted (see weak cells above) along with batteries being replaced
under warranty in less than 11,000 miles.

Having said all that.... unfortunately a year ago i spent 5 days in the
company of a 'loan' vectrix and fell in love with the way it rode (even
though it was slower than the RF900 suzuki i was used to.) loved the
'geek'ness of it and just the fun of riding past petrol stations - the
silence etc...hell i dont need to tell you lot what its like.

Anyhow back then the price of a vectrix was $18,000 NZD (new zealand
dollar). Today I have the opportunity to buy a NEW vectrix for approximately
$8000 - $8500 (Depending on fluctuations of currency etc)

Now bearing in mind although this is new - there is NO warranty - no
comeback if it ceases to function after day 1 - the batterypack is NIMH and
alot of its systems are not open source.

Of course - I still want it - but i still worry - im not loaded with money
and like anything there are a few horror stories out there about these bikes
and their way of unceremoniously failing without warning that and the range
being somewhat closer to 40km than 100km (which was the original manu claims
- to be honest i only got about 55km on a new bike anyhow)


So.... what do i do... wait til theres something newer and warranted....
buy it because its actually quite well made - its a solid feeling real bike
capable of around town speed perfectly.

Or what..... agggggghhhhhh

I guess what really is the problem is fear

Thoughts people ?

Cheers

Chris

Auckland

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------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 10:46:14 -0500
From: John <electruck@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] MPG to wh/mile?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <6D81B283-1DB1-49DB-8271-990DAFF60A3E@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Are these values from the wall or the batteries?


On Nov 22, 2009, at 12:23 AM, Bill Dube <billdube@...> wrote:

> My VW Cabriolet gets 240 to 270 W-hrs per mile under mixed driving.
> It got about 25 mpg when it was gasoline. This works out to between 6
> and 6.7 kW/hrs per gallon of gasoline.
>
>         Not a particularly aerodynamic car and not lightweight by
> today's standards.
>
>
> At 09:45 PM 11/21/2009, you wrote:
>> Three very different but average cars that I use are all about 300
>> wh/mi
>> driving gently.  A small efficient car might be 250 wh/mi, and
>> bigger,
>> heavier cars are 350-400 wh/mi.  Trucks and SUV's are more like
>> 500-700
>> wh/mi.  That's good enough to ballpark it which is as good as it
>> gets no
>> matter how much calculating you do.  It can vary so much due to
>> driving
>> conditions and driving style that crunching numbers all day is
>> still a
>> WAG unless very specific conditions are specified.  I can probably
>> vary
>> my burn from 250-500 wh/mi, and maybe more than that under extreme
>> conditions.
>>
>> Gary Krysztopik
>
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Message: 5
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 19:00:37 -0800
From: cowtown@...
Subject: Re: [EVDL] MPG to wh/mile?
To: ev@...
Message-ID:
	 <20091122190037.b8n6oyvtwggw088c-pbjgbja@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes";
	 format="flowed"

<<< Are these values from the wall or the batteries? >>>

They look like pack-to-road values. Wall-to-road is affected by
charger - something crude like a bad-boy will be much higher wt-hrs/mi
than a Manzanita Micro or a Brusa.

Think more
     Talk less
        Become wise



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 22:05:35 -0500
From: Seth Rothenberg <nevjersey@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] A 2006 movie....If you haven't already seen it you
	 should....
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <e80545a50911221905o221f188cicbf72ddaf57572b1@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Funny thing...when I saw what David wrote....

On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 1:13 PM, David Roden <evpost@...> wrote:
> I hate to be a wet blanket, but we've had quite a few discussions of this
> issue before,

...I thought the next sentence was going to be,
we're here to discuss building EVs....not why or whether to build....

...and then I saw that David concluded with ...


> Regardless of what happens and when,
> by having an EV in the garage, you gain.....
>And you'll get an EV grin, which is both priceless and

So, I have to share this.....
it's practically a non-event to most EV builders....
I told my wife, most people reach this stage in 2-4 weeks....
but because I took the stubborn route I did, it's been a lot longer....
....I got a small grin today to see the Camry wheels
turning under the power of the Kostov.

There are lots of caveats and it may never be sturdy
enough to go on a highway, but today I completed
splinting the two half-shafts (to test size), and hooked up
the old 12 V starting battery, and it turned!

(I have a few (hundred) more things to do, but the
very next one is get the motor speed sensor working :-)

Seth



------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 20:29:37 -0700
From: Dave Hymers <dhymers@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 2006 Movie.....If you haven't seen it....You
	 should....
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <ec811c3f0911221929o712a4f67w469b3612565005ec@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

www.peakoil.com
Good discussion forums on there, with lots of useful info, but beware, there
are also a lot of miserable b***ards on there :)
commonly known as "doomers"

I watch a lot of videos on youtube by "Peak Moment" with Janiah Donaldson;
while sobering its a bit more up-beat, lots of great interviews.

Whether its coming or we've hit a "mini" peak I'm still not sure, but I'm
sure of one thing; act NOW. ergo- EV's
(getting used to living with an EV, with its "restrictions" and benefits is
a great thing to be doing, can't wait to do it myself :)
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Message: 8
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 03:43:53 -0500
From: Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] A 2006 movie....If you haven't already seen it you
	 should....
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <2b4886ce0911230043y7a333b26mc2a3f555d7154446@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 11:51 AM, Douglas A. Stansfield <
Doug@...> wrote:

> I just watched this movie on Netflix and if you haven't already seen it,
> might want to consider watching it.
>
> "A Crude Awakening: The Oil Crash"
>
> A very well done, documentary.
>
> Love to know your thoughts.  Are we at the Peak? Before the Peak? Or on our
> way down the back side?
>
> Sincerely;
>
> Douglas A. Stansfield
>
> President
>
> www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
>
> 973-875-6276 (office)
>
> 973-670-9208 (cell)
>
> 973-440-1619 (fax)
>
> WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
>
> And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS
>


> =========================Doug, I found it enlightening ! ============


Just finished watching it free on Google Videos.  And I was very informative
and with
the profuse expertise of the interviewed appeared quite believable.  The
"Talking Head"
format has been outdated since 1960, But  my level of interest kept me
listening anyway.

>>Love to know your thoughts.  Are we at the Peak? Before the Peak? Or on
our
way down the back side?<<

In reply to your question I think we are headed down the declining side
and Gasohol is not going to produce enough energy to keep the USA's energy
needs supplied for long.

  We need more Solar and other alternatives to maintain the World I like
living in.

Perhaps thin film panels will be made and sold at lower prices. Then if a
factory built a modular "Roof Over" to cover the entire home and four foot
overhangs as a south facing "Shed Style Flat Roof" surfaced with thin metal
and toped with thin film solar generating panels over it all, it could
generate enough power for the home and the EV. And on the farm electric
tractors too.

Forget the Electric Utilities their business is generating Profits and
Dividends. That is why they want huge generating structures and MegaWatt
production, so they can make a profit on distribution. Let them supply the
skyscrapers...

The suburbs and rural areas need to get off the grid. IMHO  (:-))

Regards,

     Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
        Phone (863) 289 - 0690

"We provide Mentoring, Small Group Instruction, and Hands-On training for
the EV Technicians: Building, Converting, Repairing, and Servicing
the Electric Vehicles of Today, and the Future."
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Message: 9
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 11:54:16 +0000
From: Ole-Egil Hvitmyren <olegil@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 2006 Movie.....If you haven't seen it....You
	 should....
To: dhymers@..., Electric Vehicle Discussion List
	 <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B0A77E8.3000806@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed

Dave Hymers wrote:
> www.peakoil.com
> Good discussion forums on there, with lots of useful info, but beware, there
> are also a lot of miserable b***ards on there :)
> commonly known as "doomers"
>
> I watch a lot of videos on youtube by "Peak Moment" with Janiah Donaldson;
> while sobering its a bit more up-beat, lots of great interviews.
>
> Whether its coming or we've hit a "mini" peak I'm still not sure, but I'm
> sure of one thing; act NOW. ergo- EV's
> (getting used to living with an EV, with its "restrictions" and benefits is
> a great thing to be doing, can't wait to do it myself :)

This might be getting a bit off-topic, but there's something else than
global peak oil to consider. And I just HAD to rant a little :-)

USA has had it's national peak oil, and is no longer self-sufficient.
Germany has the same issue. A few third world countries are ramping up
their production now (which is good for them), some more are exploring
like crazy, but other than that, it's basically Russia, Saudi Arabia,
Iraq and Iran who is exporting all the oil. Plus Canada and Norway, but
we're not nearly in the same league. This is not good in the long run.

We don't need any more russian or saudi owned Premier League teams that
badly. Neither of those have any major imports they need us to sell
them, so what we're ending up doing is giving away all our values to
them, and getting oil back. Print dollars, give to SA, get oil back.
They take the money and invest it. The kingdom of Norway currently owns
nearly 1% of the stocks in the whole world because of this oil. And
we're small.
Numbers from last year:
GDP: 0.37% of world total
Oil fund ownership: 0.77% of world total

Imagine what SA, Iraq, Iran or Russia could do with the amounts of money
you guys are paying them for their oil?

I for one am not in the least surprised that Germany is looking to make
a great number of electric cars in the near future. They cannot expect
to import petroleum and export petroleum burning cars forever. Also,
redirecting money to research/development and production of renewable
energy sources is not an EXPENSE, it's an INVESTMENT. A lot of naysayers
seems to get that wrong (the "it'll cost to much" argument against
shifting away from oil just in case GW is real and our fault).

My arguments for EV:
It's going to happen anyway, sooner or later we ARE going to find a
cheap source of electricity that noone has thought of yet and that's
going to make it pretty darn silly to pay for oil. So we might as well
go into history as the pioneering firsts, rather than the reluctant lasts.

In some countries it's gonna happen FAST because they are currently
importing oil which brings no benefits compared to ramping up production
of solar cells and wind mills which means local industry (fairly good
argument for the US and Germany, actually). As soon as they see that by
creating jobs instead of exporting money they can balance their budgets
easier they will do so.

Pioneering is fun.

Unfortunately I'm still a bit behind, having decided that if I'm gonna
do this I'm gonna do it myself, and therefore:
a: design my own balancing charger (design idea finished, just need to
build prototype and write code to verify that it IS that simple)
b: design my own motor controller, AC with regen. Design has begun here
as well, but it's hard to allocate time after a long day at work.

So unlike most projects which consist of charger, BMS and controller,
I'm integrating the charger into the BMS. Should give a MUCH higher
wall-to-road efficiency. And won't cost me that much more either.


--
We'll initialise that PCI bridge when we get there.
http://olegil.amigaos.se/



------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 12:27:50 +0000
From: Andrew Wood <ajwood@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <AC52DB3C-EB07-4E48-BF8A-668F5AAE2B8B@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes

Douglas, Dennis

I was meaning to go on the EV body itself.  That one on Amazon is the
sort of thing, but is there a better range of them somewhere?  WHat
about inductive ones?

Andrew

On 22 Nov 2009, at 16:19, Douglas A. Stansfield wrote:

> Andrew,
>
> Below, Dennis gave a good description on the house side of the
> equation.  If
> you are looking for a 120v male plug receiver for the EV then look
> at this
> one.  Just want to be sure you have what you need.
>
>
> http://www.amazon.com/ParkPower-Marinco-150BBI-RV-Charger-125-Volt/dp/B000NV
> 0V8C/ref=pd_sbs_sg_5
>
>
> Sincerely;
>
> Douglas A. Stansfield
> President
> www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
> 973-875-6276 (office)
> 973-670-9208 (cell)
> 973-440-1619 (fax)
>
> WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
> And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...]
> On Behalf
> Of Dennis Miles
> Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 10:26 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket
>
> On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 9:27 AM, Andrew Wood <ajwood@...> wrote:
>
>> Wheres the best place to obtain a plug & socket for connecting the
>> onboard charger to the mains?
>>
>> Regards
>> Andrew
>>
>> ==================There are several choices.======================
>>
>
> If you are on good terms with a commercial  Electrician ask them,
> otherwise
> call at least three licensed electricians out at different times and
> ask for
> estimates. They will know what the local electrical code requires,
> and /or
> local practice is for Recreational Vehicles,(I assume they are more
> common
> than EVs tell him what your charger input requirements are. You can
> discuss
> interior or outdoor wall mount or Pedestal outdoor
> weatherproof installation. Know where you want to park when
> charging, and if
> outside do you want an additional light fixture so you can safely
> plug in if
> you get home after dark. (Flashlights are only fun the first week.)
> Give all three the same specifications but listen to suggestions
> then call
> the other ones back and ask them about those suggestions too. Ask
> for names
> and phone numbers of local customers and call them, check with
> licensing
> bureau to prove they are licensed, they should get the permit and
> include
> that in their estimate. "Remember, 'Wiring is No Hobby!'." and keep
> your
> home SAFE.
> Regards,
>    Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
> Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
> Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
>       Phone (863) 289 - 0690
> "We provide Mentoring, Small Group Instruction, and Hands-On
> training for
> the EV Technicians: Building, Converting, Repairing, and Servicing the
> Electric Vehicles of Today, and the Future."
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> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
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> ______________________________________________________________________



------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 08:46:37 -0500
From: Phil Marino <phil42277@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] MPG to wh/mile?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <660221ca0911230546t7081a153vb10f67c26f5efaed@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Mr Cowtown

Be careful not to confuse power factor with efficiency.  "Bad-boy" chargers
will generally have a poor power factor ( along with most any charger that
uses a light-dimmer type control) but that doesn't necessarily mean poor
efficiency.

Of course, if you're using several extension cords as power resistors,
you're certainly taking an efficiency hit there.

Phil Marino

On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 10:00 PM, <cowtown@...> wrote:

> <<< Are these values from the wall or the batteries? >>>
>
> They look like pack-to-road values. Wall-to-road is affected by
> charger - something crude like a bad-boy will be much higher wt-hrs/mi
> than a Manzanita Micro or a Brusa.
>
> Think more
>    Talk less
>       Become wise
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
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Message: 12
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 09:49:26 -0500
From: Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <2b4886ce0911230649u2c2037dey660b5d2416c863a8@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 7:27 AM, Andrew Wood <ajwood@...> wrote:

> Douglas, Dennis
>
> I was meaning to go on the EV body itself.  That one on Amazon is the
> sort of thing, but is there a better range of them somewhere?  WHat
> about inductive ones?
>
> Andrew
> =======================EV side is a different Puppy..================
>

Because the "Electrical Code" treats the EV's Charger as an appliance.

I would send you shopping at the RV or Yacht supply stores, they have
reliable equipment proven in years of use.

The Right choice is dependent upon the input of your Charger;  110, or 115,
or 120 or 208, 220, or 240 ACV. And at what current; 10 to 50 AC Amps?
  These will determine how big the conductors have to be and how many wires
are in the cable sheath. Are you using different cables for 120v. at 12A.
for Opportunity Charging versus 208V. at 24A for at home?  Or just an
"Adapter" with plug and jack attached to a foot long piece of cable, for
120v. and don't use it for 208V. at home. Also how long of a cable will you
need?

                                       <<WHat about inductive ones?>> you
asked.

The Inductive couplings require Expensive Electronic "Adapters" at the park
and charge location and in the EV because it is very inefficient at 50 or 60
Hertz. Also It isn't portable in its present form.

Have you asked the members at the local EV club? How about at a nearby RV
Supply for their recommendations?  The $ 300,000 Bus Conversion RV owners
are likely to have an elegant solution.

There are many solutions you will have to decide which is best for you.

  I want something simple and secure, so I don't have to sit there on a
folding chair with a shotgun in my lap to keep away the "Copper Thieves." My
solution is; I don't put a connector on the EV, I run the wire thru a
grommet lined hole under the fuel door, and clamp it on inside.

Then when I unplug,  I just push the wire inside the trunk where it falls
into a plastic bucket (Mostly) and lock the fuel door closed. The next time
I want to use it I unlock and open the fuel door and pull as much cord as I
need out. If it seems short I open the trunk and untangle it...  (This has
been my solution on my Motor Home since 1998 also.)

This way some "Low Life " doesn't unplug both ends and take it away a $275
cord set, to sell!

Good Luck, hope this was Interesting.

Regards,

     Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
        Phone (863) 289 - 0690

"We provide Mentoring, Small Group Instruction, and Hands-On training
for the EV Technicians: Building, Converting, Repairing, and Servicing
  the Electric Vehicles of Today, and the Future."
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Message: 13
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 10:00:52 -0500
From: "Douglas A. Stansfield" <Doug@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <000601ca6c4d$c097b5d0$41c72170$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dear Andrew,

I bought the one on Amazon and it is perfect for my EV on the 120 volt side
as well as very inexpensive and fully functional.  I am working on the 240
side but haven't had time to think about it that much lately.

I put the 120v receptacle on the rear fender body just below and near the
old gas cap on my car.  I then put the 240 volt charger plug in under the
gas cap.  I would start with the 120 volt one for now.  The 240 volt plug
will be the J1772 plug from Yazaki.  They aren't selling it to small
companies now.  Just large OEMS so I can't get them yet.  Once they become
available that will be the standard on all public charging stations along
with 120 plugs.

Regarding "sourcing" lots of different style plugs, there really isn't a lot
of choice out there.


Sincerely;

Douglas A. Stansfield
President
www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
973-875-6276 (office)
973-670-9208 (cell)
973-440-1619 (fax)

WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS




-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
Of Andrew Wood
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 7:28 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket

Douglas, Dennis

I was meaning to go on the EV body itself.  That one on Amazon is the
sort of thing, but is there a better range of them somewhere?  WHat
about inductive ones?

Andrew

On 22 Nov 2009, at 16:19, Douglas A. Stansfield wrote:

> Andrew,
>
> Below, Dennis gave a good description on the house side of the
> equation.  If
> you are looking for a 120v male plug receiver for the EV then look
> at this
> one.  Just want to be sure you have what you need.
>
>
>
http://www.amazon.com/ParkPower-Marinco-150BBI-RV-Charger-125-Volt/dp/B000NV
> 0V8C/ref=pd_sbs_sg_5
>
>
> Sincerely;
>
> Douglas A. Stansfield
> President
> www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
> 973-875-6276 (office)
> 973-670-9208 (cell)
> 973-440-1619 (fax)
>
> WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
> And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...]
> On Behalf
> Of Dennis Miles
> Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 10:26 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket
>
> On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 9:27 AM, Andrew Wood <ajwood@...> wrote:
>
>> Wheres the best place to obtain a plug & socket for connecting the
>> onboard charger to the mains?
>>
>> Regards
>> Andrew
>>
>> ==================There are several choices.======================
>>
>
> If you are on good terms with a commercial  Electrician ask them,
> otherwise
> call at least three licensed electricians out at different times and
> ask for
> estimates. They will know what the local electrical code requires,
> and /or
> local practice is for Recreational Vehicles,(I assume they are more
> common
> than EVs tell him what your charger input requirements are. You can
> discuss
> interior or outdoor wall mount or Pedestal outdoor
> weatherproof installation. Know where you want to park when
> charging, and if
> outside do you want an additional light fixture so you can safely
> plug in if
> you get home after dark. (Flashlights are only fun the first week.)
> Give all three the same specifications but listen to suggestions
> then call
> the other ones back and ask them about those suggestions too. Ask
> for names
> and phone numbers of local customers and call them, check with
> licensing
> bureau to prove they are licensed, they should get the permit and
> include
> that in their estimate. "Remember, 'Wiring is No Hobby!'." and keep
> your
> home SAFE.
> Regards,
>    Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
> Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
> Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
>       Phone (863) 289 - 0690
> "We provide Mentoring, Small Group Instruction, and Hands-On
> training for
> the EV Technicians: Building, Converting, Repairing, and Servicing the
> Electric Vehicles of Today, and the Future."
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
>
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20091122/be0cb3cd/attac
> hment.html
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
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>
> _______________________________________________
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> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
> For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email
> ______________________________________________________________________

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------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 10:19:39 -0500
From: Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <2b4886ce0911230719l653d9fcbw7433728673082dec@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 10:00 AM, Douglas A. Stansfield <
Doug@...> wrote:

> Dear Andrew,
>
> I bought the one on Amazon and it is perfect for my EV on the 120 volt side
> as well as very inexpensive and fully functional.  I am working on the 240
> side but haven't had time to think about it that much lately.
>
> I put the 120v receptacle on the rear fender body just below and near the
> old gas cap on my car.  I then put the 240 volt charger plug in under the
> gas cap.  I would start with the 120 volt one for now.  The 240 volt plug
> will be the J1772 plug from Yazaki.  They aren't selling it to small
> companies now.  Just large OEMS so I can't get them yet.  Once they become
> available that will be the standard on all public charging stations along
> with 120 plugs.
>
> Regarding "sourcing" lots of different style plugs, there really isn't a
> lot
> of choice out there.
>
>
> Sincerely;
>
> Douglas A. Stansfield
> President
> www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
> 973-875-6276 (office)
> 973-670-9208 (cell)
> 973-440-1619 (fax)
>
> WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
> And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS
>
> ========================Regarding the J1772 standard EV interface ========
>

My impression is that "J1772" is a power (240 acv.) and digital
communication interface which will have to be used at Public Charging
locations by Federal Rule making.  It sounds very restrictive. that is why I
am going to try to limit myself to 220 acv. at home and 120 acv. in public
which I feel is much simpler for now.

Regards.

    Dennis Miles,    (Director)
Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
        Phone (863) 289 - 0690
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------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 07:20:01 -0800
From: "joe" <joe@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <366E2F3B602843ED9987D1448965C5CC@Sales>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original

In reality, there are many types available - from electrical supply houses.
They should have any type that you want to use, except of course the ones
that aren't in common use yet. And  they are not necessarily cheap from the
supply houses, or available on the Net.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: joe@...


----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas A. Stansfield" <Doug@...>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 7:00 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket


> Dear Andrew,
>
> I bought the one on Amazon and it is perfect for my EV on the 120 volt
> side
> as well as very inexpensive and fully functional.  I am working on the 240
> side but haven't had time to think about it that much lately.
>
> I put the 120v receptacle on the rear fender body just below and near the
> old gas cap on my car.  I then put the 240 volt charger plug in under the
> gas cap.  I would start with the 120 volt one for now.  The 240 volt plug
> will be the J1772 plug from Yazaki.  They aren't selling it to small
> companies now.  Just large OEMS so I can't get them yet.  Once they become
> available that will be the standard on all public charging stations along
> with 120 plugs.
>
> Regarding "sourcing" lots of different style plugs, there really isn't a
> lot
> of choice out there.
>
>
> Sincerely;
>
> Douglas A. Stansfield
> President
> www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
> 973-875-6276 (office)
> 973-670-9208 (cell)
> 973-440-1619 (fax)
>
> WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
> And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On
> Behalf
> Of Andrew Wood
> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 7:28 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket
>
> Douglas, Dennis
>
> I was meaning to go on the EV body itself.  That one on Amazon is the
> sort of thing, but is there a better range of them somewhere?  WHat
> about inductive ones?
>
> Andrew
>
> On 22 Nov 2009, at 16:19, Douglas A. Stansfield wrote:
>
>> Andrew,
>>
>> Below, Dennis gave a good description on the house side of the
>> equation.  If
>> you are looking for a 120v male plug receiver for the EV then look
>> at this
>> one.  Just want to be sure you have what you need.
>>
>>
>>
> http://www.amazon.com/ParkPower-Marinco-150BBI-RV-Charger-125-Volt/dp/B000NV
>> 0V8C/ref=pd_sbs_sg_5
>>
>>
>> Sincerely;
>>
>> Douglas A. Stansfield
>> President
>> www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
>> 973-875-6276 (office)
>> 973-670-9208 (cell)
>> 973-440-1619 (fax)
>>
>> WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
>> And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...]
>> On Behalf
>> Of Dennis Miles
>> Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 10:26 AM
>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 9:27 AM, Andrew Wood <ajwood@...> wrote:
>>
>>> Wheres the best place to obtain a plug & socket for connecting the
>>> onboard charger to the mains?
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Andrew
>>>
>>> ==================There are several choices.======================
>>>
>>
>> If you are on good terms with a commercial  Electrician ask them,
>> otherwise
>> call at least three licensed electricians out at different times and
>> ask for
>> estimates. They will know what the local electrical code requires,
>> and /or
>> local practice is for Recreational Vehicles,(I assume they are more
>> common
>> than EVs tell him what your charger input requirements are. You can
>> discuss
>> interior or outdoor wall mount or Pedestal outdoor
>> weatherproof installation. Know where you want to park when
>> charging, and if
>> outside do you want an additional light fixture so you can safely
>> plug in if
>> you get home after dark. (Flashlights are only fun the first week.)
>> Give all three the same specifications but listen to suggestions
>> then call
>> the other ones back and ask them about those suggestions too. Ask
>> for names
>> and phone numbers of local customers and call them, check with
>> licensing
>> bureau to prove they are licensed, they should get the permit and
>> include
>> that in their estimate. "Remember, 'Wiring is No Hobby!'." and keep
>> your
>> home SAFE.
>> Regards,
>>    Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
>> Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
>> Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
>>       Phone (863) 289 - 0690
>> "We provide Mentoring, Small Group Instruction, and Hands-On
>> training for
>> the EV Technicians: Building, Converting, Repairing, and Servicing the
>> Electric Vehicles of Today, and the Future."
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL:
>>
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20091122/be0cb3cd/attac
>> hment.html
>> _______________________________________________
>> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________________
>> This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
>> For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email
>> ______________________________________________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



------------------------------

Message: 16
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 08:23:51 -0700
From: Dave Hymers <dhymers@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] A 2006 movie....If you haven't already seen it you
	 should....
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <ec811c3f0911230723g68bec991w92d21394b372f952@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

> The suburbs and rural areas need to get off the grid. IMHO  (:-))
>
> Regards,
>
>    Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
> Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
> Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
>       Phone (863) 289 - 0690
>

Couldn't agree more ! :) (I live out in the boonies)
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------------------------------

Message: 17
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 10:26:43 -0500
From: "Douglas A. Stansfield" <Doug@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <000a01ca6c51$5d9224d0$18b66e70$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

While I appreciate the Electrical Supply houses, the prices there are not
always that great.....


Sincerely;

Douglas A. Stansfield
President
www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
973-875-6276 (office)
973-670-9208 (cell)
973-440-1619 (fax)

WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS





-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
Of joe
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 10:20 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket

In reality, there are many types available - from electrical supply houses.
They should have any type that you want to use, except of course the ones
that aren't in common use yet. And  they are not necessarily cheap from the
supply houses, or available on the Net.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: joe@...


----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas A. Stansfield" <Doug@...>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 7:00 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket


> Dear Andrew,
>
> I bought the one on Amazon and it is perfect for my EV on the 120 volt
> side
> as well as very inexpensive and fully functional.  I am working on the 240
> side but haven't had time to think about it that much lately.
>
> I put the 120v receptacle on the rear fender body just below and near the
> old gas cap on my car.  I then put the 240 volt charger plug in under the
> gas cap.  I would start with the 120 volt one for now.  The 240 volt plug
> will be the J1772 plug from Yazaki.  They aren't selling it to small
> companies now.  Just large OEMS so I can't get them yet.  Once they become
> available that will be the standard on all public charging stations along
> with 120 plugs.
>
> Regarding "sourcing" lots of different style plugs, there really isn't a
> lot
> of choice out there.
>
>
> Sincerely;
>
> Douglas A. Stansfield
> President
> www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
> 973-875-6276 (office)
> 973-670-9208 (cell)
> 973-440-1619 (fax)
>
> WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
> And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On
> Behalf
> Of Andrew Wood
> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 7:28 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket
>
> Douglas, Dennis
>
> I was meaning to go on the EV body itself.  That one on Amazon is the
> sort of thing, but is there a better range of them somewhere?  WHat
> about inductive ones?
>
> Andrew
>
> On 22 Nov 2009, at 16:19, Douglas A. Stansfield wrote:
>
>> Andrew,
>>
>> Below, Dennis gave a good description on the house side of the
>> equation.  If
>> you are looking for a 120v male plug receiver for the EV then look
>> at this
>> one.  Just want to be sure you have what you need.
>>
>>
>>
>
http://www.amazon.com/ParkPower-Marinco-150BBI-RV-Charger-125-Volt/dp/B000NV
>> 0V8C/ref=pd_sbs_sg_5
>>
>>
>> Sincerely;
>>
>> Douglas A. Stansfield
>> President
>> www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
>> 973-875-6276 (office)
>> 973-670-9208 (cell)
>> 973-440-1619 (fax)
>>
>> WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
>> And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...]
>> On Behalf
>> Of Dennis Miles
>> Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 10:26 AM
>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 9:27 AM, Andrew Wood <ajwood@...> wrote:
>>
>>> Wheres the best place to obtain a plug & socket for connecting the
>>> onboard charger to the mains?
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Andrew
>>>
>>> ==================There are several choices.======================
>>>
>>
>> If you are on good terms with a commercial  Electrician ask them,
>> otherwise
>> call at least three licensed electricians out at different times and
>> ask for
>> estimates. They will know what the local electrical code requires,
>> and /or
>> local practice is for Recreational Vehicles,(I assume they are more
>> common
>> than EVs tell him what your charger input requirements are. You can
>> discuss
>> interior or outdoor wall mount or Pedestal outdoor
>> weatherproof installation. Know where you want to park when
>> charging, and if
>> outside do you want an additional light fixture so you can safely
>> plug in if
>> you get home after dark. (Flashlights are only fun the first week.)
>> Give all three the same specifications but listen to suggestions
>> then call
>> the other ones back and ask them about those suggestions too. Ask
>> for names
>> and phone numbers of local customers and call them, check with
>> licensing
>> bureau to prove they are licensed, they should get the permit and
>> include
>> that in their estimate. "Remember, 'Wiring is No Hobby!'." and keep
>> your
>> home SAFE.
>> Regards,
>>    Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
>> Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
>> Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
>>       Phone (863) 289 - 0690
>> "We provide Mentoring, Small Group Instruction, and Hands-On
>> training for
>> the EV Technicians: Building, Converting, Repairing, and Servicing the
>> Electric Vehicles of Today, and the Future."
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL:
>>
>
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20091122/be0cb3cd/attac
>> hment.html
>> _______________________________________________
>> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________________
>> This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
>> For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email
>> ______________________________________________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
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>

_______________________________________________
General support: http://evdl.org/help/
Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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------------------------------

Message: 18
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 10:35:34 -0500
From: "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket, an' Stuff
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <3B9A5B2922964A17BC6785488ABDBC23@adminwlzisp2uc>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original

   Hi EVerybody;

    While digging through my EV junque stuff, I found a GREAT old socket. I
put it to use on Mike O's S-10, my signiture plug-in-gas-filler setup. Was
thinking" Wonder IF they STILL make these things? It 's a round recessed
plug, in a sorta cup, with two ears for a bolt on each side to hold it in.
Behind it has setscrews to attach yur hot wires and ground. I THINK it came
from a parted out EFP rig, about 35 YEARS ago. All I needed was a flat plate
mounted to the filler hole and the plug was recessed, already! No having to
hunt down JUST the right size small mixer bowl, or feeding S.S. bowl to
mount a male plug on.

    Just thought I'd bring it up, since we're into a plug diss-cussion theme
here?

      Other Shit; Mike is just gunna get his tags as a Stock S-10, gas
powered, so we can DRIVE with a free consience. Deal with the "Electric
Issue" when he gets his notice that he hasta get "Smogged" It WILL be a
grace period of several months? Until He'll hafta "Fess up" that the S-10 is
ELECTYRIC. soo He'll have some test and tune, or tul the truk gets USED to
him, or is it the OTHER way around?We want to see it go down the road, or
Woo Hoo! ANOTHER EV hits the Road!Or I've met my Non G.M . threatening
one-a-year production rate!

     Seeya

      Bob,   MORE below
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dennis Miles" <dmiles33810@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 9:49 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket


> On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 7:27 AM, Andrew Wood <ajwood@...> wrote:
>
>> Douglas, Dennis
>>
>> I was meaning to go on the EV body itself.  That one on Amazon is the
>> sort of thing, but is there a better range of them somewhere?  WHat
>> about inductive ones?
>>
>> Andrew

     Andrew? Aren't you in the UK? I'll guess that UK has a WHOLE different
Code setup than here in the Colonies? You just DON'T do 120 volts? ALL home
stuff in UK and PROBABLY Europe is nice, handy 240 volts fuzed for 13 amps.
THIS, I think would be simplifying the whole wiring question? You get used
to lottsa 240 volts stuff around the house? Radio, Electric Blanket,
toothbrush, cell fone charger, etc?

      Bob
>> =======================EV side is a different Puppy..================
>>
>
> Because the "Electrical Code" treats the EV's Charger as an appliance.
>
> I would send you shopping at the RV or Yacht supply stores, they have
> reliable equipment proven in years of use.
>
> The Right choice is dependent upon the input of your Charger;  110, or
> 115,
> or 120 or 208, 220, or 240 ACV. And at what current; 10 to 50 AC Amps?
> These will determine how big the conductors have to be and how many wires
> are in the cable sheath. Are you using different cables for 120v. at 12A.
> for Opportunity Charging versus 208V. at 24A for at home?  Or just an
> "Adapter" with plug and jack attached to a foot long piece of cable, for
> 120v. and don't use it for 208V. at home. Also how long of a cable will
> you
> need?
>
>                                      <<WHat about inductive ones?>> you
> asked.
>
> The Inductive couplings require Expensive Electronic "Adapters" at the
> park
> and charge location and in the EV because it is very inefficient at 50 or
> 60
> Hertz. Also It isn't portable in its present form.

    Or AFFORDABLE. You just KNOW that, likr batteries for portable tool NO
two will be created equil!

> Have you asked the members at the local EV club? How about at a nearby RV
> Supply for their recommendations?  The $ 300,000 Bus Conversion RV owners
> are likely to have an elegant solution.

    I took the chord by the plug and just set "MY" standard as a 14-50 NEMA
240 volt plug, installed on MY charge station, on the house wall, by the E
service drop.AND a 120 volt wall plug like ALL over my house and garage. The
one we have for about 100 years! That they aren't convenient to parking
areas is an ongoing issue?  HowEVer I WOULD like to see the RV 240 volt plug
adapted as THE EV standard, however, as Jack Gretta used to say;" Standard??
WHICH one would ya like?" I BUILT it ,IF they will come? A variation of "IF
you Build it, they will Come" A Tesla? In Corrupticut? It's possable?A Rav
or Mini? Cars with SERIOUS ranges.

> There are many solutions you will have to decide which is best for you.
>
> I want something simple and secure, so I don't have to sit there on a
> folding chair with a shotgun in my lap to keep away the "Copper Thieves."
> My
> solution is; I don't put a connector on the EV, I run the wire thru a
> grommet lined hole under the fuel door, and clamp it on inside.
>
> Then when I unplug,  I just push the wire inside the trunk where it falls
> into a plastic bucket (Mostly) and lock the fuel door closed. The next
> time
> I want to use it I unlock and open the fuel door and pull as much cord as
> I
> need out. If it seems short I open the trunk and untangle it...  (This has
> been my solution on my Motor Home since 1998 also.)
>
> This way some "Low Life " doesn't unplug both ends and take it away a $275
> cord set, to sell!

   This sorta low life MIGHT be scared off by a few" Danger million OHMs"
signs. Volts Dolts Ohms Smolms All prety much the same to THEM<G> They drop
the hood and run off, especially in Detoilet, Electricity and BIG dogs can
work their magic!

    I'm afraid THIS will be an EV issue in our major shitties, er, Citys, The
ones that are on the news with nightly drive-by-shootings; Charging in the
wondeful urban environment all the hidiously expensive prices of heavy
enough 'stench cords, to get a meaningful amount of juice? Maybe for the
larcenous parking fees in , say, NYC, you MIGHT get some juice, too?

> Good Luck, hope this was Interesting.

    Especially the coming responses?
>
> Regards,
>
>    Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
> Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
> Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
>       Phone (863) 289 - 0690
>
> "We provide Mentoring, Small Group Instruction, and Hands-On training
> for the EV Technicians: Building, Converting, Repairing, and Servicing
> the Electric Vehicles of Today, and the Future."
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
>
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t.html
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



------------------------------

Message: 19
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 10:43:23 -0500
From: Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <2b4886ce0911230743r3d64d773t4e6aedd4f7cb9458@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 10:26 AM, Douglas A. Stansfield <
Doug@...> wrote:

> While I appreciate the Electrical Supply houses, the prices there are not
> always that great.....
>
>
> Sincerely;
>
> Douglas A. Stansfield
> President
> www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
> 973-875-6276 (office)
> 973-670-9208 (cell)
> 973-440-1619 (fax)
>
> WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
> And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS
>
> ====================Wow, One would think,=========================
>
> That WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS would be
> buying in "Case Lots" at big discounts and selling them at a moderate profit
> to all us Poor EV Conversion Builders. Doug, here is your chance to define
> the "Conversion Standard" for us all and eliminate the possibility of us
> buying in-appropriate hardware !
>


>
>
I think we would all be "Grateful" (Seriously, I am not pulling your chain,
> I mean it.)
>

      Regards,

  Dennis Miles,    (Director)
Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
        Phone (863) 289 - 0690
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------------------------------

Message: 20
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 11:10:06 -0500
From: "EVDL Administrator" <evpost@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B0A6D8E.15931.213CFA@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

How about something like this?

http://www.kussmaul.com/auto%20and%20air%20ejects%20index.html

If the URL doesn't work, open the base address, then view Fire and Emergency
Products, then Auto Ejectors.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" an "etpost" addresses will not
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =




------------------------------

Message: 21
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 11:13:42 -0500
From: "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket, an' Stuff. Followup.
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <CDF3B2FB1818421AB2324E961B98B129@adminwlzisp2uc>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket, an' Stuff


>  Hi EVerybody;
>
>   While digging through my EV junque stuff, I found a GREAT old socket

      OK?! I got onto Mc Master Carr's site and sniffed around and THERE iit
was! Part no-8036k1 "Ind. Grade flanged rec.etc" JUST what I was looking
for! Ordered 2, see if they are JUST the thing for gas filler upgrades for
charging? Not cheap, at 12 bux a pop, but MAYBE better quality than the
ubiqidous Chinezy plugs ya get at Truly Valueless Hardware.!!??

       Seeya

        Bob



------------------------------

Message: 22
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 11:30:04 -0500
From: Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket, an' Stuff
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <2b4886ce0911230830md997a0fk8310075d4d123db@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 10:35 AM, Bob Rice <bobrice@...> wrote:

>  Hi EVerybody;
>
>   While digging through my EV junque stuff, I found a GREAT old socket. I
> put it to use on Mike O's S-10, my signiture plug-in-gas-filler setup. Was
> thinking" Wonder IF they STILL make these things? It 's a round recessed
> plug, in a sorta cup, with two ears for a bolt on each side to hold it in.
> Behind it has setscrews to attach yur hot wires and ground. I THINK it came
> from a parted out EFP rig, about 35 YEARS ago. All I needed was a flat
> plate
> mounted to the filler hole and the plug was recessed, already! No having to
> hunt down JUST the right size small mixer bowl, or feeding S.S. bowl to
> mount a male plug on.
>
>   Just thought I'd bring it up, since we're into a plug diss-cussion theme
> here?
>
>     Other Shit; Mike is just gunna get his tags as a Stock S-10, gas
> powered, so we can DRIVE with a free consience. Deal with the "Electric
> Issue" when he gets his notice that he hasta get "Smogged" It WILL be a
> grace period of several months? Until He'll hafta "Fess up" that the S-10
> is
> ELECTYRIC. soo He'll have some test and tune, or tul the truk gets USED to
> him, or is it the OTHER way around?We want to see it go down the road, or
> Woo Hoo! ANOTHER EV hits the Road!Or I've met my Non G.M . threatening
> one-a-year production rate!
>
>    Seeya
>
>     Bob,   MORE below
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dennis Miles" <dmiles33810@...>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 9:49 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket
>
>
> > On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 7:27 AM, Andrew Wood <ajwood@...> wrote:
> >
> >> Douglas, Dennis
> >>
> >> I was meaning to go on the EV body itself.  That one on Amazon is the
> >> sort of thing, but is there a better range of them somewhere?  WHat
> >> about inductive ones?
> >>
> >> Andrew
>
>    Andrew? Aren't you in the UK? I'll guess that UK has a WHOLE different
> Code setup than here in the Colonies? You just DON'T do 120 volts? ALL home
> stuff in UK and PROBABLY Europe is nice, handy 240 volts fuzed for 13 amps.
> THIS, I think would be simplifying the whole wiring question? You get used
> to lottsa 240 volts stuff around the house? Radio, Electric Blanket,
> toothbrush, cell fone charger, etc?
>
>     Bob
> >> =======================EV side is a different Puppy..================
> >>
> >
> > Because the "Electrical Code" treats the EV's Charger as an appliance.
> >
> > I would send you shopping at the RV or Yacht supply stores, they have
> > reliable equipment proven in years of use.
> >
> > The Right choice is dependent upon the input of your Charger;  110, or
> > 115,
> > or 120 or 208, 220, or 240 ACV. And at what current; 10 to 50 AC Amps?
> > These will determine how big the conductors have to be and how many wires
> > are in the cable sheath. Are you using different cables for 120v. at 12A.
> > for Opportunity Charging versus 208V. at 24A for at home?  Or just an
> > "Adapter" with plug and jack attached to a foot long piece of cable, for
> > 120v. and don't use it for 208V. at home. Also how long of a cable will
> > you
> > need?
> >
> >                                      <<WHat about inductive ones?>> you
> > asked.
> >
> > The Inductive couplings require Expensive Electronic "Adapters" at the
> > park
> > and charge location and in the EV because it is very inefficient at 50 or
> > 60
> > Hertz. Also It isn't portable in its present form.
>
>   Or AFFORDABLE. You just KNOW that, likr batteries for portable tool NO
> two will be created equil!
>
> > Have you asked the members at the local EV club? How about at a nearby RV
> > Supply for their recommendations?  The $ 300,000 Bus Conversion RV owners
> > are likely to have an elegant solution.
>
>   I took the chord by the plug and just set "MY" standard as a 14-50 NEMA
> 240 volt plug, installed on MY charge station, on the house wall, by the E
> service drop.AND a 120 volt wall plug like ALL over my house and garage.
> The
> one we have for about 100 years! That they aren't convenient to parking
> areas is an ongoing issue?  HowEVer I WOULD like to see the RV 240 volt
> plug
> adapted as THE EV standard, however, as Jack Gretta used to say;"
> Standard??
> WHICH one would ya like?" I BUILT it ,IF they will come? A variation of "IF
> you Build it, they will Come" A Tesla? In Corrupticut? It's possable?A Rav
> or Mini? Cars with SERIOUS ranges.
>
> > There are many solutions you will have to decide which is best for you.
> >
> > I want something simple and secure, so I don't have to sit there on a
> > folding chair with a shotgun in my lap to keep away the "Copper Thieves."
> > My
> > solution is; I don't put a connector on the EV, I run the wire thru a
> > grommet lined hole under the fuel door, and clamp it on inside.
> >
> > Then when I unplug,  I just push the wire inside the trunk where it falls
> > into a plastic bucket (Mostly) and lock the fuel door closed. The next
> > time
> > I want to use it I unlock and open the fuel door and pull as much cord as
> > I
> > need out. If it seems short I open the trunk and untangle it...  (This
> has
> > been my solution on my Motor Home since 1998 also.)
> >
> > This way some "Low Life " doesn't unplug both ends and take it away a
> $275
> > cord set, to sell!
>
>  This sorta low life MIGHT be scared off by a few" Danger million OHMs"
> signs. Volts Dolts Ohms Smolms All prety much the same to THEM<G> They drop
> the hood and run off, especially in Detoilet, Electricity and BIG dogs can
> work their magic!
>
>   I'm afraid THIS will be an EV issue in our major shitties, er, Citys, The
> ones that are on the news with nightly drive-by-shootings; Charging in the
> wondeful urban environment all the hidiously expensive prices of heavy
> enough 'stench cords, to get a meaningful amount of juice? Maybe for the
> larcenous parking fees in , say, NYC, you MIGHT get some juice, too?
>
> > Good Luck, hope this was Interesting.
>
>   Especially the coming responses?
> ==============================Hello Bob, are you keeping on track?=======
>
>>This sorta low life MIGHT be scared off by a few" Danger million OHMs"<<
>>signs. Volts Dolts Ohms Smolms All prety much the same to THEM<<

That is because they spent their youth dealing "Crack" not learning to read.

I used two License Plate Lights mounted on top of my dash in front of the
driver connected to a 120 to 12 v. transformer @ one Amp to power the
lights, they get AC power from the "Shore Power" cord if it is plugged in.
so I don't drive off with the cord plugged in. At night in the RV park it
serves double duty as a "Night Light."

I prefer as few plugs and sockets as possible because of the tendency
to corrode, especially outside in the fog, dew, and rain. One of my friends
used a Twist to Lock Plug and Jack and taped over the junction crack with
electrical tape every time, It corroded inside the plug where the wires were
attached... (It's a No Win Scenario. Like the Kobayashi-Maru.)


>  Regards,
>
>     Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
>  Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
>  Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
>        Phone (863) 289 - 0690
>
>  "We provide Mentoring, Small Group Instruction, and Hands-On training
>  for the EV Technicians: Building, Converting, Repairing, and Servicing
>  the Electric Vehicles of Today, and the Future."
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------------------------------

Message: 23
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 11:49:14 -0500
From: "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <648A1EAFE2FE4E80829144690110CBCA@adminwlzisp2uc>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original


----- Original Message -----
From: "EVDL Administrator" <evpost@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 11:10 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket


> How about something like this?
>
> http://www.kussmaul.com/auto%20and%20air%20ejects%20index.html

     Yeah! Nice! For youse guyz with deep pockets? At 160 a pop, or 184 bux
for the 20 amp model? I JUST chatted up the local Kuss Maul, (great name for
a rock band!?) dealer, a Fire Equipment place, JUST the guyz to get your
Plasma Event stuff, while yur looking at Quick Eject plug recepticles? I
fessed up and TOLD him what I was looking for. Electric car, he thouight it
was cool!  Might DRIVE over there to Waterford, and do Show and Tell? But
NOT really that hot to BUY one, though. But it doesn't cost anything to
window shop?

     Fun Link, though.

       Bob
>
> If the URL doesn't work, open the base address, then view Fire and
> Emergency
> Products, then Auto Ejectors.

      Worked like Hell, for me! Maybe u2?

> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" an "etpost" addresses will not
> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



------------------------------

Message: 24
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 11:54:52 -0500
From: "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <9FAB4F99EEB744A98992A896C2AF9E91@adminwlzisp2uc>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original


----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas A. Stansfield" <Doug@...>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 10:26 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket


> While I appreciate the Electrical Supply houses, the prices there are not
> always that great.....
>
    For sure! just hoping that THEIR stuff is of decent quality?? Not Chinezy
grade? I'll let ya know when the recepticles GET here! Maybe ya STILL get
what ya pay for??

     Bob
> Sincerely;
>
> Douglas A. Stansfield
> President
> www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
> 973-875-6276 (office)
> 973-670-9208 (cell)
> 973-440-1619 (fax)
>
> WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
> And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On
> Behalf
> Of joe
> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 10:20 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket
>
> In reality, there are many types available - from electrical supply
> houses.
> They should have any type that you want to use, except of course the ones
> that aren't in common use yet. And  they are not necessarily cheap from
> the
> supply houses, or available on the Net.
>
> Joseph H. Strubhar
>
> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>
> E-mail: joe@...
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Douglas A. Stansfield" <Doug@...>
> To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 7:00 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket
>
>
>> Dear Andrew,
>>
>> I bought the one on Amazon and it is perfect for my EV on the 120 volt
>> side
>> as well as very inexpensive and fully functional.  I am working on the
>> 240
>> side but haven't had time to think about it that much lately.
>>
>> I put the 120v receptacle on the rear fender body just below and near the
>> old gas cap on my car.  I then put the 240 volt charger plug in under the
>> gas cap.  I would start with the 120 volt one for now.  The 240 volt plug
>> will be the J1772 plug from Yazaki.  They aren't selling it to small
>> companies now.  Just large OEMS so I can't get them yet.  Once they
>> become
>> available that will be the standard on all public charging stations along
>> with 120 plugs.
>>
>> Regarding "sourcing" lots of different style plugs, there really isn't a
>> lot
>> of choice out there.
>>
>>
>> Sincerely;
>>
>> Douglas A. Stansfield
>> President
>> www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
>> 973-875-6276 (office)
>> 973-670-9208 (cell)
>> 973-440-1619 (fax)
>>
>> WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
>> And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On
>> Behalf
>> Of Andrew Wood
>> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 7:28 AM
>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket
>>
>> Douglas, Dennis
>>
>> I was meaning to go on the EV body itself.  That one on Amazon is the
>> sort of thing, but is there a better range of them somewhere?  WHat
>> about inductive ones?
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>> On 22 Nov 2009, at 16:19, Douglas A. Stansfield wrote:
>>
>>> Andrew,
>>>
>>> Below, Dennis gave a good description on the house side of the
>>> equation.  If
>>> you are looking for a 120v male plug receiver for the EV then look
>>> at this
>>> one.  Just want to be sure you have what you need.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
> http://www.amazon.com/ParkPower-Marinco-150BBI-RV-Charger-125-Volt/dp/B000NV
>>> 0V8C/ref=pd_sbs_sg_5
>>>
>>>
>>> Sincerely;
>>>
>>> Douglas A. Stansfield
>>> President
>>> www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
>>> 973-875-6276 (office)
>>> 973-670-9208 (cell)
>>> 973-440-1619 (fax)
>>>
>>> WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
>>> And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...]
>>> On Behalf
>>> Of Dennis Miles
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 10:26 AM
>>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket
>>>
>>> On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 9:27 AM, Andrew Wood <ajwood@...> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Wheres the best place to obtain a plug & socket for connecting the
>>>> onboard charger to the mains?
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>> Andrew
>>>>
>>>> ==================There are several choices.======================
>>>>
>>>
>>> If you are on good terms with a commercial  Electrician ask them,
>>> otherwise
>>> call at least three licensed electricians out at different times and
>>> ask for
>>> estimates. They will know what the local electrical code requires,
>>> and /or
>>> local practice is for Recreational Vehicles,(I assume they are more
>>> common
>>> than EVs tell him what your charger input requirements are. You can
>>> discuss
>>> interior or outdoor wall mount or Pedestal outdoor
>>> weatherproof installation. Know where you want to park when
>>> charging, and if
>>> outside do you want an additional light fixture so you can safely
>>> plug in if
>>> you get home after dark. (Flashlights are only fun the first week.)
>>> Give all three the same specifications but listen to suggestions
>>> then call
>>> the other ones back and ask them about those suggestions too. Ask
>>> for names
>>> and phone numbers of local customers and call them, check with
>>> licensing
>>> bureau to prove they are licensed, they should get the permit and
>>> include
>>> that in their estimate. "Remember, 'Wiring is No Hobby!'." and keep
>>> your
>>> home SAFE.
>>> Regards,
>>>    Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
>>> Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
>>> Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
>>>       Phone (863) 289 - 0690
>>> "We provide Mentoring, Small Group Instruction, and Hands-On
>>> training for
>>> the EV Technicians: Building, Converting, Repairing, and Servicing the
>>> Electric Vehicles of Today, and the Future."
>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>> URL:
>>>
>>
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20091122/be0cb3cd/attac
>>> hment.html
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>>> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>>> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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>>>
>>>
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>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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------------------------------

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End of EV Digest, Vol 28, Issue 33
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Today's Topics:

    1. Re: EV Digest, Vol 28, Issue 29 (Roger Heuckeroth)
    2. Re: MPG to wh/mile? (joe)
    3. Re: MPG to wh/mile? (Bill Dube)
    4. Re: MPG to wh/mile? (K O)
    5. Re: Vectrix - Decisions decisions - help needed (Elithion)
    6. Re: MPG to wh/mile? (Tom Alvary)
    7. Vectrix and ...lithium? (cowtown@...)
    8. Re: MPG to wh/mile? (Al)
    9. Re: MPG to wh/mile? (cowtown@...)
   10. Re: MPG to wh/mile? (David Nelson)
   11. Re: MPG to wh/mile? (gary)
   12. Re: MPG to wh/mile? (Bill Dube)
   13. Re: MPG to wh/mile? (Bill Dube)
   14. Re: MPG to wh/mile? (Mike Nickerson)
   15. curtis 1221b mosfet blowout (Gary Patterson)
   16. Charger plug/socket (Andrew Wood)
   17. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place - Businessmodel
       discussion... (Jeff Shanab)
   18. Re: Charger plug/socket (Dennis Miles)
   19. Re: Charger plug/socket (Douglas A. Stansfield)
   20. A 2006 movie....If you haven't already seen it you should....
       (Douglas A. Stansfield)
   21. 2006 Movie.....If you haven't seen it....You should....
       (Douglas A. Stansfield)
   22. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place - Businessmodel
       discussion... (Roger Heuckeroth)
   23. Re: A 2006 movie....If you haven't already seen it you
       should.... (David Roden)
   24. Re: 2006 Movie.....If you haven't seen it....You should....
       (bearlkbob@...)
   25. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place - Businessmodel
       discussion... (Rodney Cook)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 15:38:37 -0500
From: Roger Heuckeroth <rheuckeroth@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 28, Issue 29
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <00C541E0-8AAD-4833-8F8C-C5E0A7D78E95@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes


On Nov 21, 2009, at 10:53 AM, Jeff Shanab wrote:

>
> There are some out there that need 200 miles a day. Since I am a
> software engineer, For me that would mean I am being wasteful. I
> need to
> telecommute or move closer to work.
>

There's a significant population out there that do not simply commute
back and forth to work.  For example:

Sales people - depending upon their territory they may travel several
hundred miles a day visiting various clients and prospects.
Construction workers - they sometimes travel over a hundred miles to a
jobsite.
Service people - may go from client to client all day long.

Maybe those people would be better off with a range extended vehicle,
or a diesel, CNG or other depending upon their needs.



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 12:58:24 -0800
From: "joe" <joe@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] MPG to wh/mile?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <878CCAFB9D6E447FBAFEEE3234A6374D@Sales>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original

Bill, in terms of size of pack, do you mean voltage, or aHr, or what?

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: joe@...


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dube" <billdube@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 10:45 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] MPG to wh/mile?


> The engine efficiency has changed a lot over the years. It also is
> very dependant on the displacement to weight ratio for the vehicle.
>
>         As  rule of thumb, you need 500 lbs of lead-acid batteries
> for every gallon of gas the original car used. This translates to
> about 135 lbs of Li-Ion cells per gallon. Keep in mind that Li-Ion
> cells have about half the density of lead-acid. You get about four
> times the range per pound, but just over twice the range for the same
> size battery box.
>
>         Thus, if you are using Li-Ion, divide the maximum range you
> are after by the fuel mileage of the original car. Then multiply that
> number by 135 and you will get a reasonable estimate of the size of
> the battery pack you will need to install.
>
>         Use 500 instead of 135 if you are using lead-acid batteries.
>
>         Also, you want to pick a maximum range to be about twice
> what you need for your daily commute. If you install a pack that
> smaller, you will cycle it too deeply too often and when it wears out
> even slightly, you won't be able to get to work in the winter.
>
> Bill Dube'
>
> At 11:36 PM 11/20/2009, you wrote:
>>Hello everybody,
>>
>>I've been pondering a question for a while and thought I would ask the
>>group
>>for their thoughts and wisdom.
>>
>>I know that the characteristics of the donor vehicle (weight,
>>aerodynamics,
>>tire pressure, etc) and driving conditions/style (average speed,
>>acceleration, # starts/stops, etc) both affect the ultimate range of a EV
>>conversion.  Of course, all these factors also affect the miles per gallon
>>achieved in an ICE.
>>
>>I was just wondering if someone has a rough rule of thumb that says
>>something like:  "If you are getting 35 MPG in a certain vehicle under
>>certain driving conditions, you will probably use 150-200 wh/mile as an
>>EV."
>>(I suspect these numbers might be in the ballpark, but I made them up.)
>>
>>I realize that there are lots of variables that will make this rough
>>measure
>>imprecise.  For example, the amount of ICE "stuff" you remove will have a
>>big effect.   Also, whether your batteries are lead or lithium.  However,
>>it
>>still feels like a range of MPG will likely still correspond to a range of
>>wh/mile values.
>>
>>Has anybody worked out some rough correlations?  Maybe by driving a donor
>>vehicle for awhile before conversion and having MPG before and wh/mile
>>after
>>conversion?
>>
>>It seems like this would be a great conversion factor in quickly
>>determining
>>how much battery capacity might be needed to take a certain vehicle on a
>>specific commute or range.
>>
>>Thoughts?
>>
>>Mike
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>>Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>>Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>>Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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>



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 14:57:10 -0700
From: Bill Dube <billdube@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] MPG to wh/mile?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <20091121215843.580EF161515@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

Weight.

Pick a battery technology, then pick the weight. This will set the
kW-hrs and thus the range, approximately. Then select the size cells
or size batteries you need to to get the voltage you need for your
drive system.

At 01:58 PM 11/21/2009, you wrote:
>Bill, in terms of size of pack, do you mean voltage, or aHr, or what?
>
>Joseph H. Strubhar
>
>Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>
>E-mail: joe@...
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Bill Dube" <billdube@...>
>To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
>Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 10:45 AM
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] MPG to wh/mile?
>
>
> > The engine efficiency has changed a lot over the years. It also is
> > very dependant on the displacement to weight ratio for the vehicle.
> >
> >         As  rule of thumb, you need 500 lbs of lead-acid batteries
> > for every gallon of gas the original car used. This translates to
> > about 135 lbs of Li-Ion cells per gallon. Keep in mind that Li-Ion
> > cells have about half the density of lead-acid. You get about four
> > times the range per pound, but just over twice the range for the same
> > size battery box.
> >
> >         Thus, if you are using Li-Ion, divide the maximum range you
> > are after by the fuel mileage of the original car. Then multiply that
> > number by 135 and you will get a reasonable estimate of the size of
> > the battery pack you will need to install.
> >
> >         Use 500 instead of 135 if you are using lead-acid batteries.
> >
> >         Also, you want to pick a maximum range to be about twice
> > what you need for your daily commute. If you install a pack that
> > smaller, you will cycle it too deeply too often and when it wears out
> > even slightly, you won't be able to get to work in the winter.
> >
> > Bill Dube'
> >
> > At 11:36 PM 11/20/2009, you wrote:
> >>Hello everybody,
> >>
> >>I've been pondering a question for a while and thought I would ask the
> >>group
> >>for their thoughts and wisdom.
> >>
> >>I know that the characteristics of the donor vehicle (weight,
> >>aerodynamics,
> >>tire pressure, etc) and driving conditions/style (average speed,
> >>acceleration, # starts/stops, etc) both affect the ultimate range of a EV
> >>conversion.  Of course, all these factors also affect the miles per gallon
> >>achieved in an ICE.
> >>
> >>I was just wondering if someone has a rough rule of thumb that says
> >>something like:  "If you are getting 35 MPG in a certain vehicle under
> >>certain driving conditions, you will probably use 150-200 wh/mile as an
> >>EV."
> >>(I suspect these numbers might be in the ballpark, but I made them up.)
> >>
> >>I realize that there are lots of variables that will make this rough
> >>measure
> >>imprecise.  For example, the amount of ICE "stuff" you remove will have a
> >>big effect.   Also, whether your batteries are lead or lithium.  However,
> >>it
> >>still feels like a range of MPG will likely still correspond to a range of
> >>wh/mile values.
> >>
> >>Has anybody worked out some rough correlations?  Maybe by driving a donor
> >>vehicle for awhile before conversion and having MPG before and wh/mile
> >>after
> >>conversion?
> >>
> >>It seems like this would be a great conversion factor in quickly
> >>determining
> >>how much battery capacity might be needed to take a certain vehicle on a
> >>specific commute or range.
> >>
> >>Thoughts?
> >>
> >>Mike
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> >>Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> >>Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> >>Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> >>Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> > Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> > Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> > Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
>_______________________________________________
>General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 14:45:08 -0800 (PST)
From: K O <visualeyes108@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] MPG to wh/mile?
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <242486.27237.qm@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

OK..... does anyone have an idea what a 1968 Type 3 fastback got to a gallon?

I don't shop where I can't charge.



The engine efficiency has changed a lot over the years. It also is
very dependant on the displacement to weight ratio for the vehicle.

? ? ? ???As? rule of thumb, you need 500 lbs of lead-acid batteries
for every gallon of gas the original car used. This translates to
about 135 lbs of Li-Ion cells per gallon. Keep in mind that Li-Ion
cells have about half the density of lead-acid. You get about four
times the range per pound, but just over twice the range for the same
size battery box.

? ? ? ???Thus, if you are using Li-Ion, divide the maximum range you
are after by the fuel mileage of the original car. Then multiply that
number by 135 and you will get a reasonable estimate of the size of
the battery pack you will need to install.




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------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 15:54:27 -0800 (PST)
From: Elithion <web@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vectrix - Decisions decisions - help needed
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <1258847667065-712404.post@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii



Christopher Zach wrote:
>
> Out of curiosity, K2 owns the "design" of what?
>

Of the Li-Ion battery pack for the Vectrix, and of the BMS inside it.


Christopher Zach wrote:
>
> Are you saying that a
> third party cannot make a better battery for the Vectrix?
>

Without knowledge of the CAN codes? With great difficulty.

D'de
Davide Andrea

-----
Davide Andrea
http://liionbms.com/php/index.php Elithion
--
View this message in context:
http://n4.nabble.com/Vectrix-Decisions-decisions-help-needed-tp624571p712404.htm\
l
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 22:18:39 -0500
From: Tom Alvary <talvary@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] MPG to wh/mile?
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <4B08AD8F.4020109@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

From: "Mike Nickerson" <mike@...>
Subject: [EVDL] MPG to wh/mile?

<<<I was just wondering if someone has a rough rule of thumb that says
something like:  "If you are getting 35 MPG in a certain vehicle under
certain driving conditions, you will probably use 150-200 wh/mile as an
EV." Has anybody worked out some rough correlations?

Thoughts?

Mike>>>

Actually, there is a very good rough Lion EV conversion range estimating
rule of thumb. The conversion number is:

8 kWh of prismatic LiFePO4 cells roughly equals one gallon of gasoline.

I first saw this in a post somewhere many, many months ago. I took about
3 hours going through the EV Album of Lion battery equipped cars trying
to verify it, comparing their ranges and reported Wh/mi usage to the MPG
of the glider. Yes, there are some variations, but the numbers stayed
very close regardless of vehicle size, powertrain design, battery pack
configuration, etc. It was a little uncanny to discover, really.

I then saw where Jack Rickard had used the same rule of thumb in
choosing the battery pack for his speedster, and I asked him why it
seems to be such a useful conversion estimate. He said ICE powertrains
are about 25% efficient, EV powertrains about 80%, and MPG is a
composite efficiency number that pretty well includes a lot of
variables, so it makes sense to use it. Anyway, its a surprisingly
reliable rough estimator. If your glider got 25mpg, it will apparently
go about that far (or 80% that far, if you don't want to totally
discharge your batteries) on 8 kWh of LiFePO4 Batteries.

Interestingly enough, depending on the format chosen, 8kWh of large
LiFePO4 cells weighs something like 190-220lbs.

Anyway, its a rough measure, but pretty useful, especially since: 1) it
has wide application and doesn't apply only to "a certain vehicle under
certain driving conditions" or certain hardware configurations, and 2)
MPG is usually known, and easily estimated for the vast majority of
available gliders.

You could take the extra step and convert to Wh/mi, such that your 25MPG
glider, using up 8kWh to go that distance, would therefore use 320Wh/mi
on Lion batteries, but I don't know how useful a number like that really
is. Seems to be reasonably accurate, though...

_____________________
Tom Alvary
White Plains, NY



------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 19:28:20 -0800
From: cowtown@...
Subject: [EVDL] Vectrix and ...lithium?
To: ev@...
Message-ID:
	 <20091121192820.jpa1lfi8g8ww4wk0-pbjgbja@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes";
	 format="flowed"

<< Of the Li-Ion battery pack for the Vectrix, and of the BMS inside it. >>

Vectrix used a 3.75kWh NiMH pack - when did they ever have lithium
(before going bankrupt)?



------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 22:32:49 -0500
From: "Al" <bigg_al@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] MPG to wh/mile?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <007801ca6b24$77798dd0$4001a8c0@ALANAMD64>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
	 reply-type=original

500lbs per gallon? Try 1000+lbs. I have a VW rabbit pickup conversion that
used to get 50+mpg as a diesel. I now have 1300lbs of batteries in it (about
1/3 of the vehicle weight is batteries). I can get roughly 40 to 60 miles
depending on speed, and thats taking the battery down real low.

Al

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dube" <billdube@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] MPG to wh/mile?


> The engine efficiency has changed a lot over the years. It also is
> very dependant on the displacement to weight ratio for the vehicle.
>
>         As  rule of thumb, you need 500 lbs of lead-acid batteries
> for every gallon of gas the original car used. This translates to
> about 135 lbs of Li-Ion cells per gallon. Keep in mind that Li-Ion
> cells have about half the density of lead-acid. You get about four
> times the range per pound, but just over twice the range for the same
> size battery box.
>
>         Thus, if you are using Li-Ion, divide the maximum range you
> are after by the fuel mileage of the original car. Then multiply that
> number by 135 and you will get a reasonable estimate of the size of
> the battery pack you will need to install.
>
>         Use 500 instead of 135 if you are using lead-acid batteries.
>
>         Also, you want to pick a maximum range to be about twice
> what you need for your daily commute. If you install a pack that
> smaller, you will cycle it too deeply too often and when it wears out
> even slightly, you won't be able to get to work in the winter.
>
> Bill Dube'
>
> At 11:36 PM 11/20/2009, you wrote:
>>Hello everybody,
>>
>>I've been pondering a question for a while and thought I would ask the
>>group
>>for their thoughts and wisdom.
>>
>>I know that the characteristics of the donor vehicle (weight,
>>aerodynamics,
>>tire pressure, etc) and driving conditions/style (average speed,
>>acceleration, # starts/stops, etc) both affect the ultimate range of a EV
>>conversion.  Of course, all these factors also affect the miles per gallon
>>achieved in an ICE.
>>
>>I was just wondering if someone has a rough rule of thumb that says
>>something like:  "If you are getting 35 MPG in a certain vehicle under
>>certain driving conditions, you will probably use 150-200 wh/mile as an
>>EV."
>>(I suspect these numbers might be in the ballpark, but I made them up.)
>>
>>I realize that there are lots of variables that will make this rough
>>measure
>>imprecise.  For example, the amount of ICE "stuff" you remove will have a
>>big effect.   Also, whether your batteries are lead or lithium.  However,
>>it
>>still feels like a range of MPG will likely still correspond to a range of
>>wh/mile values.
>>
>>Has anybody worked out some rough correlations?  Maybe by driving a donor
>>vehicle for awhile before conversion and having MPG before and wh/mile
>>after
>>conversion?
>>
>>It seems like this would be a great conversion factor in quickly
>>determining
>>how much battery capacity might be needed to take a certain vehicle on a
>>specific commute or range.
>>
>>Thoughts?
>>
>>Mike
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>>Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>>Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>>Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 19:39:13 -0800
From: cowtown@...
Subject: Re: [EVDL] MPG to wh/mile?
To: ev@...
Message-ID:
	 <20091121193913.kqwwsmfpusso0g4c-pbjgbja@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes";
	 format="flowed"

<<< 500lbs per gallon? Try 1000+lbs. I have a VW rabbit pickup conversion that
used to get 50+mpg as a diesel. I now have 1300lbs of batteries in it (about
1/3 of the vehicle weight is batteries). I can get roughly 40 to 60 miles
depending on speed, and thats taking the battery down real low. >>>

The 500lb standard is 100% DOD in gasoline vehicles.



------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 20:29:55 -0800
From: David Nelson <gizmoev@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] MPG to wh/mile?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <c5b2f1dc0911212029x36b0121au1236aad58a39631e@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Saturday, November 21, 2009,  <cowtown@...> wrote:
[snip]
>
> The 500lb standard is 100% DOD in gasoline vehicles.
>

Maybe that is why I remember reading 700-800lbs as the figure.

Bill, is your 135lb figure to 100% DOD? Maybe the 190-220lb figure is
a little (or is it a lot) more conservative number. I'm thinking about
TS or SE type of batteries.


--
David D. Nelson
http://evalbum.com/1328



------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 22:45:28 -0600
From: gary <gkrysztopik@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] MPG to wh/mile?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B08C1E8.1000409@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Three very different but average cars that I use are all about 300 wh/mi
driving gently.  A small efficient car might be 250 wh/mi, and bigger,
heavier cars are 350-400 wh/mi.  Trucks and SUV's are more like 500-700
wh/mi.  That's good enough to ballpark it which is as good as it gets no
matter how much calculating you do.  It can vary so much due to driving
conditions and driving style that crunching numbers all day is still a
WAG unless very specific conditions are specified.  I can probably vary
my burn from 250-500 wh/mi, and maybe more than that under extreme
conditions.

Gary Krysztopik
ZWheelz, LLC - www.ZWheelz.com
Alamo City Electric Auto Association - www.aceaa.org
blog - http://voices.mysanantonio.com/drive_electric_san_antonio/
San Antonio, TX

>
> I was just wondering if someone has a rough rule of thumb that says
> something like:  "If you are getting 35 MPG in a certain vehicle under
> certain driving conditions, you will probably use 150-200 wh/mile as an EV."
> (I suspect these numbers might be in the ballpark, but I made them up.)
>
>



------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 22:09:27 -0700
From: Bill Dube <billdube@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] MPG to wh/mile?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <20091122051414.C5BBA1614C5@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

Gallon of gasoline, not a gallon of diesel.

That identical car with a gasoline engine gets about half that fuel mileage.

Diesel engines are much more efficient than gasoline engines,
especially at less than full throttle.


At 08:32 PM 11/21/2009, you wrote:
>500lbs per gallon? Try 1000+lbs. I have a VW rabbit pickup conversion that
>used to get 50+mpg as a diesel. I now have 1300lbs of batteries in it (about
>1/3 of the vehicle weight is batteries). I can get roughly 40 to 60 miles
>depending on speed, and thats taking the battery down real low.
>
>Al
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Bill Dube" <billdube@...>
>To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
>Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 1:45 PM
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] MPG to wh/mile?
>
>
> > The engine efficiency has changed a lot over the years. It also is
> > very dependant on the displacement to weight ratio for the vehicle.
> >
> >         As  rule of thumb, you need 500 lbs of lead-acid batteries
> > for every gallon of gas the original car used. This translates to
> > about 135 lbs of Li-Ion cells per gallon. Keep in mind that Li-Ion
> > cells have about half the density of lead-acid. You get about four
> > times the range per pound, but just over twice the range for the same
> > size battery box.
> >
> >         Thus, if you are using Li-Ion, divide the maximum range you
> > are after by the fuel mileage of the original car. Then multiply that
> > number by 135 and you will get a reasonable estimate of the size of
> > the battery pack you will need to install.
> >
> >         Use 500 instead of 135 if you are using lead-acid batteries.
> >
> >         Also, you want to pick a maximum range to be about twice
> > what you need for your daily commute. If you install a pack that
> > smaller, you will cycle it too deeply too often and when it wears out
> > even slightly, you won't be able to get to work in the winter.
> >
> > Bill Dube'
> >
> > At 11:36 PM 11/20/2009, you wrote:
> >>Hello everybody,
> >>
> >>I've been pondering a question for a while and thought I would ask the
> >>group
> >>for their thoughts and wisdom.
> >>
> >>I know that the characteristics of the donor vehicle (weight,
> >>aerodynamics,
> >>tire pressure, etc) and driving conditions/style (average speed,
> >>acceleration, # starts/stops, etc) both affect the ultimate range of a EV
> >>conversion.  Of course, all these factors also affect the miles per gallon
> >>achieved in an ICE.
> >>
> >>I was just wondering if someone has a rough rule of thumb that says
> >>something like:  "If you are getting 35 MPG in a certain vehicle under
> >>certain driving conditions, you will probably use 150-200 wh/mile as an
> >>EV."
> >>(I suspect these numbers might be in the ballpark, but I made them up.)
> >>
> >>I realize that there are lots of variables that will make this rough
> >>measure
> >>imprecise.  For example, the amount of ICE "stuff" you remove will have a
> >>big effect.   Also, whether your batteries are lead or lithium.  However,
> >>it
> >>still feels like a range of MPG will likely still correspond to a range of
> >>wh/mile values.
> >>
> >>Has anybody worked out some rough correlations?  Maybe by driving a donor
> >>vehicle for awhile before conversion and having MPG before and wh/mile
> >>after
> >>conversion?
> >>
> >>It seems like this would be a great conversion factor in quickly
> >>determining
> >>how much battery capacity might be needed to take a certain vehicle on a
> >>specific commute or range.
> >>
> >>Thoughts?
> >>
> >>Mike
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> >>Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> >>Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> >>Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
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> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> > Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> > Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> > Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
>_______________________________________________
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------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 22:23:13 -0700
From: Bill Dube <billdube@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] MPG to wh/mile?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <20091122053953.AE2D4CA7CC@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

My VW Cabriolet gets 240 to 270 W-hrs per mile under mixed driving.
It got about 25 mpg when it was gasoline. This works out to between 6
and 6.7 kW/hrs per gallon of gasoline.

          Not a particularly aerodynamic car and not lightweight by
today's standards.


At 09:45 PM 11/21/2009, you wrote:
>Three very different but average cars that I use are all about 300 wh/mi
>driving gently.  A small efficient car might be 250 wh/mi, and bigger,
>heavier cars are 350-400 wh/mi.  Trucks and SUV's are more like 500-700
>wh/mi.  That's good enough to ballpark it which is as good as it gets no
>matter how much calculating you do.  It can vary so much due to driving
>conditions and driving style that crunching numbers all day is still a
>WAG unless very specific conditions are specified.  I can probably vary
>my burn from 250-500 wh/mi, and maybe more than that under extreme
>conditions.
>
>Gary Krysztopik
>ZWheelz, LLC - www.ZWheelz.com
>Alamo City Electric Auto Association - www.aceaa.org
>blog - http://voices.mysanantonio.com/drive_electric_san_antonio/
>San Antonio, TX
>
> >
> > I was just wondering if someone has a rough rule of thumb that says
> > something like:  "If you are getting 35 MPG in a certain vehicle under
> > certain driving conditions, you will probably use 150-200 wh/mile
> as an EV."
> > (I suspect these numbers might be in the ballpark, but I made them up.)
> >
> >
>
>_______________________________________________
>General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 23:31:10 -0700
From: "Mike Nickerson" <mike@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] MPG to wh/mile?
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <06e701ca6b3d$63066120$29132360$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

That range of variation is partly why I asked the original question.  I
drive a Mazda 626 V6 that is EPA rated 19/25 mpg.  However, through careful,
conservative driving I can get it to 35 mpg regularly in a mix of city and
highway driving.  I was wondering if I converted it to electric what kind of
battery capacity that would take.  I doubt I would convert this particular
vehicle, for a couple of reasons, but it is helpful to have an easy way to
scale battery capacity based off MPG.  Of course, I know that much more
analysis would be required before actually building anything, but this helps
for preliminary budgetary calculations, at least.

Thanks for all the responses.  They have been very helpful.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
Of gary
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 9:45 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] MPG to wh/mile?

Three very different but average cars that I use are all about 300 wh/mi
driving gently.  A small efficient car might be 250 wh/mi, and bigger,
heavier cars are 350-400 wh/mi.  Trucks and SUV's are more like 500-700
wh/mi.  That's good enough to ballpark it which is as good as it gets no
matter how much calculating you do.  It can vary so much due to driving
conditions and driving style that crunching numbers all day is still a
WAG unless very specific conditions are specified.  I can probably vary
my burn from 250-500 wh/mi, and maybe more than that under extreme
conditions.

Gary Krysztopik
ZWheelz, LLC - www.ZWheelz.com
Alamo City Electric Auto Association - www.aceaa.org
blog - http://voices.mysanantonio.com/drive_electric_san_antonio/
San Antonio, TX

>
> I was just wondering if someone has a rough rule of thumb that says
> something like:  "If you are getting 35 MPG in a certain vehicle under
> certain driving conditions, you will probably use 150-200 wh/mile as an
EV."
> (I suspect these numbers might be in the ballpark, but I made them up.)
>
>

_______________________________________________
General support: http://evdl.org/help/
Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 08:08:53 -0500
From: Gary Patterson <gpatterson53@...>
Subject: [EVDL] curtis 1221b mosfet blowout
To: <ev@...>
Message-ID: <SNT125-W622BD652CAD543A18ADEB0DA9F0@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"




1221b controller stopped working.


I opened my controller and found a mosfet that had exploded.  I replaced the
mosfet and connected everything back up.  Soon as i applied voltage,  the 2
mosfets on either side of the one just replaced blew.  Any ideas?   checked all
the big diodes..ok


_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/
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Message: 16
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 14:27:59 +0000
From: Andrew Wood <ajwood@...>
Subject: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <278F9C11-0B2E-40B6-A7AE-EEA3C69FB62B@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes

Wheres the best place to obtain a plug & socket for connecting the
onboard charger to the mains?

Regards
Andrew



------------------------------

Message: 17
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 06:57:00 -0800
From: Jeff Shanab <jshanab@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
	 Businessmodel discussion...
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <4B09513C.5020800@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Another data-point.

     I did my conversion and the adding of solar-grid tie to my house at
the same time.
I make more on the solar than I use in the EV. So we can eliminate the
electricity from the cost/mile.
Obviously the goal was not to save money right now. the solar costs. My
goal was a zero balance sheet on transportation and daily power. I am
not there yet.

My ICE's are rather old and the maintenance on them gets high.
For now, the EV saves me because it allows me to park them.
I am suffering this month because I have to keep CA happy and smog them.
They both failed. I guess only using 2 tanks a year is a little rough on
maintaining smog stuff. The other car(mini-truck) has driven once since
it last last drove 2 years ago to the very same smog station where it
passed. :-(

I am holding out for 100mile EV from a manufacturer. If they fail me,
another conversion is in order. AC/Li-ion , cupholders, PS, Air. etc

>
>> >BUT there are more important reasons, in my mind, for driving an EV that
>>
> have nothing to do with saving money. And those reasons make spending the
> extra >money worth it.
>
>
>> >A second BUT. If I can buy a new commuter car in ICE or EV for basically
>>
> the same price, I'd buy the EV in a minute. Using a pack replacement at
>
>> >$5254.80 every 5 years, if I can lease the pack for less than $1000 year it
>>
> would also be a winner.
>
>
>> >--Rick
>>
>
> Sorry it costs you so much to charge in CT.  I built my car for much less
> than $10,000 and I used a Kill-A-Watt meter to see how much AC electricity I
> was using to recharge her.
>
> You are right that even if it costs more, EVs are worth it in my mind.  No
> Foreign Oil purchased, no noise, no smog...the list goes on.....
>
> My example was just that, an example.  In your case it didn't work, in my
> case it did.  I will continue to extol the virtues of EV driving to all ICE
> owners no matter what.  We need to get others to join with us and I agree
> that if someone can lease a battery for less than $1000 a year, I am there
> as well!!!  Then the math really starts to look better....
>
>
> Sincerely;
>
> Douglas A. Stansfield
> President



------------------------------

Message: 18
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 10:25:40 -0500
From: Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <2b4886ce0911220725g4009e312l35dcb5888d315057@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 9:27 AM, Andrew Wood <ajwood@...> wrote:

> Wheres the best place to obtain a plug & socket for connecting the
> onboard charger to the mains?
>
> Regards
> Andrew
>
> ==================There are several choices.======================
>

If you are on good terms with a commercial  Electrician ask them, otherwise
call at least three licensed electricians out at different times and ask for
estimates. They will know what the local electrical code requires, and /or
local practice is for Recreational Vehicles,(I assume they are more common
than EVs tell him what your charger input requirements are. You can discuss
interior or outdoor wall mount or Pedestal outdoor
weatherproof installation. Know where you want to park when charging, and if
outside do you want an additional light fixture so you can safely plug in if
you get home after dark. (Flashlights are only fun the first week.)
Give all three the same specifications but listen to suggestions then call
the other ones back and ask them about those suggestions too. Ask for names
and phone numbers of local customers and call them, check with licensing
bureau to prove they are licensed, they should get the permit and include
that in their estimate. "Remember, 'Wiring is No Hobby!'." and keep your
home SAFE.
Regards,
     Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
        Phone (863) 289 - 0690
"We provide Mentoring, Small Group Instruction, and Hands-On training for
the EV Technicians: Building, Converting, Repairing, and Servicing the
Electric Vehicles of Today, and the Future."
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Message: 19
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 11:19:11 -0500
From: "Douglas A. Stansfield" <Doug@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <005301ca6b8f$86e35060$94a9f120$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Andrew,

Below, Dennis gave a good description on the house side of the equation.  If
you are looking for a 120v male plug receiver for the EV then look at this
one.  Just want to be sure you have what you need.


http://www.amazon.com/ParkPower-Marinco-150BBI-RV-Charger-125-Volt/dp/B000NV
0V8C/ref=pd_sbs_sg_5


Sincerely;

Douglas A. Stansfield
President
www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
973-875-6276 (office)
973-670-9208 (cell)
973-440-1619 (fax)

WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS




-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
Of Dennis Miles
Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 10:26 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger plug/socket

On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 9:27 AM, Andrew Wood <ajwood@...> wrote:

> Wheres the best place to obtain a plug & socket for connecting the
> onboard charger to the mains?
>
> Regards
> Andrew
>
> ==================There are several choices.======================
>

If you are on good terms with a commercial  Electrician ask them, otherwise
call at least three licensed electricians out at different times and ask for
estimates. They will know what the local electrical code requires, and /or
local practice is for Recreational Vehicles,(I assume they are more common
than EVs tell him what your charger input requirements are. You can discuss
interior or outdoor wall mount or Pedestal outdoor
weatherproof installation. Know where you want to park when charging, and if
outside do you want an additional light fixture so you can safely plug in if
you get home after dark. (Flashlights are only fun the first week.)
Give all three the same specifications but listen to suggestions then call
the other ones back and ask them about those suggestions too. Ask for names
and phone numbers of local customers and call them, check with licensing
bureau to prove they are licensed, they should get the permit and include
that in their estimate. "Remember, 'Wiring is No Hobby!'." and keep your
home SAFE.
Regards,
     Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
        Phone (863) 289 - 0690
"We provide Mentoring, Small Group Instruction, and Hands-On training for
the EV Technicians: Building, Converting, Repairing, and Servicing the
Electric Vehicles of Today, and the Future."
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_______________________________________________
General support: http://evdl.org/help/
Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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------------------------------

Message: 20
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 11:51:23 -0500
From: "Douglas A. Stansfield" <Doug@...>
Subject: [EVDL] A 2006 movie....If you haven't already seen it you
	 should....
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <005401ca6b94$0649eb80$12ddc280$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I just watched this movie on Netflix and if you haven't already seen it,
might want to consider watching it.



"A Crude Awakening: The Oil Crash"



A very well done, documentary.



Love to know your thoughts.  Are we at the Peak? Before the Peak? Or on our
way down the back side?



Sincerely;



Douglas A. Stansfield

President

www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com

973-875-6276 (office)

973-670-9208 (cell)

973-440-1619 (fax)



WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS

And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS

LogoColorNoText.jpg













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------------------------------

Message: 21
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 11:58:28 -0500
From: "Douglas A. Stansfield" <Doug@...>
Subject: [EVDL] 2006 Movie.....If you haven't seen it....You
	 should....
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <005a01ca6b95$0365c1e0$0a3145a0$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I just watched this movie on Netflix and if you haven't already seen it,
might want to consider watching it.

"A Crude Awakening: The Oil Crash"

A very well done, documentary.

Love to know your thoughts.  Are we at the Peak? Before the Peak? Or on our
way down the back side?

Sincerely;

Douglas A. Stansfield
President
www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
973-875-6276 (office)
973-670-9208 (cell)
973-440-1619 (fax)




------------------------------

Message: 22
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 12:25:27 -0500
From: Roger Heuckeroth <rheuckeroth@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
	 Businessmodel discussion...
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <6B951DAD-FD17-482C-A4AD-9E315ABBA9BF@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes


On Nov 22, 2009, at 9:57 AM, Jeff Shanab wrote:

>  I did my conversion and the adding of solar-grid tie to my house at
> the same time.
> I make more on the solar than I use in the EV. So we can eliminate the
> electricity from the cost/mile.
> Obviously the goal was not to save money right now. the solar costs.
> My
> goal was a zero balance sheet on transportation and daily power. I am
> not there yet.

I was going to post a similar response to this thread.  I hope to also
be there one day where I produce all my power needs for my home,
business and transportation.  I congratulate you, Jeff, on making
progress towards that goal.  Your further along to that goal than I am.



------------------------------

Message: 23
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 13:13:12 -0500
From: "David Roden" <evpost@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] A 2006 movie....If you haven't already seen it you
	 should....
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B0938E8.10088.12FED14@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

On 22 Nov 2009 at 11:51, Douglas A. Stansfield wrote:

> Are we at the Peak? Before the Peak? Or on our
> way down the back side?

I hate to be a wet blanket, but we've had quite a few discussions of this
issue before, without getting much beyond agreeing to disagree.  You can see
the more recent ones in the archive (link below).

Alas, the earth doesn't have a gas gauge.  A lot of researchers have tried
to estimate how much is left underground, but every estimate of the world's
petroleum reserves is only that - an estimate - at best.

As I see it, we can safely say that (1) we're consuming petroleum a lot
faster than it's being made naturally, so for all intents and purposes the
supply is finite; (2) it's getting harder to find and extract; and (3) a lot
of it is probably located in places that either are (a) politically unstable
(b) unfriendly and/or (c) considered by some or many to be undesirable as
locations for drilling (in otherwise pristine wilderness, in or near the
ocean, near fault lines, et cetera).

I think most people will probably agree that, long-term, the cost (financial
and otherwise) of getting the oil we currently depend on for the lifestyle
that westerners have come to expect will increase.  How soon and how much
are unknown and are subject to interpretation, speculation, and opinion.

Regardless of what happens and when, by having an EV in the garage, you gain
the ability to harvest your own vehicle fuel from a wide range of renewable
and non-renewable sources, including sun, wind, and water.  You'll be ready
if and when oil gets expensive and/or scarce.  You'll also stop sending your
money overseas, and to nations and / or groups that some folks would rather
not support.  And you'll get an EV grin, which is both priceless and
timeless.  ;-)

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =




------------------------------

Message: 24
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 14:14:07 -0500
From: bearlkbob@...
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 2006 Movie.....If you haven't seen it....You
	 should....
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <8CC39BF18FCBBEE-1268-D2C1@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"


  Some have define "peak oil" at different places based on ease of capture. The
articles I read placed this arbitrary event in 2003, 2005, and even earlier. The
fact is, the easy stuff is all discovered, and there is lots of expensive
petrochemicals available- at a cost. Notice that I wrote petrochemicals, because
tar sands, shale oil and the like are not oil, and are expensive and very dirty.
Bio fuels, even made with algae, tend to compete with human foodstuffs, count
them out until we can feed algae with human wastes or the like. Electricity
is really the only alternative, with hydrocarbon based fuels for uses which
require a high energy density to work- flight for example. Lets face it, it's
time to kick the hydrocarbon habit. Otherwise we face an expensive and polluted
transportation future, sooner than most folks imagine. Oil is currently at +/-
70$ bbl, and we are in a recession. End the recession and demand climbs world
wide. Basic economics will take the price up with demand. 2-5 years would be the
consensus estimate of the alarmists (realists) that I am reading. Electrics will
look very good, very soon.
Bob Polgreen





-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas A. Stansfield <Doug@...>
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List' <ev@...>
Sent: Sun, Nov 22, 2009 10:58 am
Subject: [EVDL] 2006 Movie.....If you haven't seen it....You should....


I just watched this movie on Netflix and if you haven't already seen it,
might want to consider watching it.

"A Crude Awakening: The Oil Crash"

A very well done, documentary.

Love to know your thoughts.  Are we at the Peak? Before the Peak? Or on our
way down the back side?

Sincerely;

Douglas A. Stansfield
President
www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
973-875-6276 (office)
973-670-9208 (cell)
973-440-1619 (fax)


_______________________________________________
General support: http://evdl.org/help/
Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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Message: 25
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 11:50:27 -0800
From: "Rodney Cook" <r.cook@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
	 Businessmodel discussion...
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP1016B6DACDBC4BAAF7A30A2909F0@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

In Seattle, each Puget Sound Energy customer has the option of specifying
that their power comes from wind turbines. My EV is charged with wind power
and my investment to make that happen is $12 per month.


-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
Of Roger Heuckeroth
Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 9:25 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
Businessmodel discussion...


On Nov 22, 2009, at 9:57 AM, Jeff Shanab wrote:

>  I did my conversion and the adding of solar-grid tie to my house at
> the same time.
> I make more on the solar than I use in the EV. So we can eliminate the
> electricity from the cost/mile.
> Obviously the goal was not to save money right now. the solar costs.
> My
> goal was a zero balance sheet on transportation and daily power. I am
> not there yet.

I was going to post a similar response to this thread.  I hope to also
be there one day where I produce all my power needs for my home,
business and transportation.  I congratulate you, Jeff, on making
progress towards that goal.  Your further along to that goal than I am.

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------------------------------

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End of EV Digest, Vol 28, Issue 32
**********************************

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Today's Topics:

    1. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place - Businessmodel
       discussion... (Douglas A. Stansfield)
    2. OT: Road noise (Barry Oppenheim)
    3. Re: OT: Road noise (Dennis Miles)
    4. Re: OT: Road noise (gary)
    5. super caps or vaporware (K O)
    6. Businessmodel discussion... (cowtown@...)
    7. Re: super caps or vaporware (cowtown@...)
    8. Re: kelly 1200amp controller (dale henderson)
    9. MPG to wh/mile? (Mike Nickerson)
   10. Re: EV Digest, Vol 28, Issue 29 (Jeff Shanab)
   11. Re: MPG to wh/mile? (Bill Dube)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:36:07 -0500
From: "Douglas A. Stansfield" <Doug@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
	 Businessmodel discussion...
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <036501ca6a21$16776970$43663c50$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>BUT there are more important reasons, in my mind, for driving an EV that
have nothing to do with saving money. And those reasons make spending the
extra >money worth it.

>A second BUT. If I can buy a new commuter car in ICE or EV for basically
the same price, I'd buy the EV in a minute. Using a pack replacement at
>$5254.80 every 5 years, if I can lease the pack for less than $1000 year it
would also be a winner.

>--Rick

Sorry it costs you so much to charge in CT.  I built my car for much less
than $10,000 and I used a Kill-A-Watt meter to see how much AC electricity I
was using to recharge her.

You are right that even if it costs more, EVs are worth it in my mind.  No
Foreign Oil purchased, no noise, no smog...the list goes on.....

My example was just that, an example.  In your case it didn't work, in my
case it did.  I will continue to extol the virtues of EV driving to all ICE
owners no matter what.  We need to get others to join with us and I agree
that if someone can lease a battery for less than $1000 a year, I am there
as well!!!  Then the math really starts to look better....


Sincerely;

Douglas A. Stansfield
President
www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
973-875-6276 (office)
973-670-9208 (cell)
973-440-1619 (fax)

WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS







-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
Of Rick Beebe
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 2:51 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
Businessmodel discussion...

Douglas A. Stansfield wrote:
> If I needed a commuter car because I wanted to get away from my two large
> vehicles in order to cut down on my commuting expense I have two choices:
>
> 1) buy a New or Used EconoBox that gets better mileage
> 2) Get a donor car and create an EV yourself or have a conversion shop do
it
> for you.
>
> If you budget $15,000 for your new or used econobox or a conversion my
> feeling is over a 5 to 7 year period you save money with the EV.

You can get a much nicer vehicle when the whole $15k goes for the
vehicle rather than, say, $5000 for the vehicle and $10,000 for the
conversion. If you're happy driving the $5000 vehicle then you "save"
$10,000 by NOT going electric.

> Lets say you drive 30 miles or less each way to work and can charge at
your
> office for a 60 mile round trip.  I calculate that if you had a 22 mpg
rated
> ICE that you bought you would be much better off with the EV instead.

Actually, money-wise you'd be better off buying a 27mpg ICE. In your
example, it would cost $115.56 month or $1386.74 per year. Over 5 years
you would have saved $4590, but since the battery pack costs $5254.80
the EV loses by $664. It actually gets worse for me, though, because in
Connecticut it costs about 6 cents per mile for electricity which means
the EV costs $3000 more over 5 years.

My own conundrum: I bought a '97 Miata for $4000 to convert. In the mean
time it gets 27mpg and my commute is 20 miles round trip. Using your
example figures, I use .74 gallons per day or $1.77 in gas. I will use
about 30 cents of electricity. That's $382 in savings per year. (note
that all of these examples erroneously assume we commute 52 weeks per
year). If it costs me $10,000 to convert the Miata to electric, it will
take a little over 26 years to get my money back. That's disregarding
any engine maintenance or pack replacements of course. Nor does it
consider tax incentives.

BUT there are more important reasons, in my mind, for driving an EV that
have nothing to do with saving money. And those reasons make spending
the extra money worth it.

A second BUT. If I can buy a new commuter car in ICE or EV for basically
the same price, I'd buy the EV in a minute. Using a pack replacement at
$5254.80 every 5 years, if I can lease the pack for less than $1000 year
it would also be a winner.

--Rick

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------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 17:40:27 -0500
From: "Barry Oppenheim" <barry@...>
Subject: [EVDL] OT: Road noise
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <AJECJKOCIDAPNAHKIEMKIECIHGAA.barry@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

I've been using by Saturn Vue EV since March and I'd like some input
regarding road noise.  I seem to be getting a lot of road noise emanating
from the rear wheel wells.

When I put the battery box in the cargo bay of the Vue I removed a thin
layer of padding between the body sheet metal and trim.  After putting in
the battery box I covered it with carpet and stuffed carpet padding into the
cavities over the wheel wells.  Although this reduces the noise it does not
eliminate it.  I almost think that my battery box is acting as a giant
amplifier for the road noise from the rear.

Thoughts,

Barry Oppenheim
New Hope, PA
www.JustAnotherEVConversion.blogspot.com



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 20:46:02 -0500
From: Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT: Road noise
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <2b4886ce0911201746p17e51a66ta339cc1e6612fbe9@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 5:40 PM, Barry Oppenheim <barry@...
> wrote:

> I've been using by Saturn Vue EV since March and I'd like some input
> regarding road noise.  I seem to be getting a lot of road noise emanating
> from the rear wheel wells.
>
> When I put the battery box in the cargo bay of the Vue I removed a thin
> layer of padding between the body sheet metal and trim.  After putting in
> the battery box I covered it with carpet and stuffed carpet padding into
> the
> cavities over the wheel wells.  Although this reduces the noise it does not
> eliminate it.  I almost think that my battery box is acting as a giant
> amplifier for the road noise from the rear.
>
> Thoughts,
>
> Barry Oppenheim
> New Hope, PA
> www.JustAnotherEVConversion.blogspot.com
>
> =======================EV s are supposed to be quiet ! ================

Barry,
  The noise you describe sounds like it could come from several  sources,

  First, Tire Tread, big across the tire groves make noise (Snow tires make
extra noise...)

Second suspension components are often mounted with "Rubber" bushings but
they only last a few years and may need replacement.

  I know you replaced the springs and shocks but what about the points where
suspension components connect to the frame/body. Especially the front end of
the swing arm and other links that connect to the frame/body. The internal
cushion of the attachment bolts shrink until metal rubs metal then interior
noise increases dramatically.

Thirdly, worn universal joints in rear wheel drive cars, not in your Saturn
View of course.

Hope you find it and it is not too hard to fix.

Regards,

     Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
        Phone (863) 289 - 0690

"We provide Mentoring, Small Group Instruction, and Hands-On training
for the EV Technicians: Building, Converting, Repairing, and Servicing
the Electric Vehicles of Today, and the Future."
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Message: 4
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 17:37:11 -0600
From: gary <gkrysztopik@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT: Road noise
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B072827.4000403@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

- rubber mount battery box (probably too hard to do after installation)
- use soundproofing foam (google search)

Gary Krysztopik
ZWheelz, LLC - www.ZWheelz.com
Alamo City Electric Auto Association - www.aceaa.org
blog - http://voices.mysanantonio.com/drive_electric_san_antonio/
San Antonio, TX



Barry Oppenheim wrote:
> I've been using by Saturn Vue EV since March and I'd like some input
> regarding road noise.  I seem to be getting a lot of road noise emanating
> from the rear wheel wells.
>
> When I put the battery box in the cargo bay of the Vue I removed a thin
> layer of padding between the body sheet metal and trim.  After putting in
> the battery box I covered it with carpet and stuffed carpet padding into the
> cavities over the wheel wells.  Although this reduces the noise it does not
> eliminate it.  I almost think that my battery box is acting as a giant
> amplifier for the road noise from the rear.
>
> Thoughts,
>
> Barry Oppenheim
> New Hope, PA
> www.JustAnotherEVConversion.blogspot.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
>



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 21:02:40 -0800 (PST)
From: K O <visualeyes108@...>
Subject: [EVDL] super caps or vaporware
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <927237.2275.qm@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

It may be vaporware, but Pinafarina has a sweet looking model being built[?] in
France called le Blu car
I saw it in Paris but though there was more technical information on its tech on
display it was completely locked down with fashion model presenters who knew
nothing about the tech..At last you could sit in the other models!? The only
real vehicles were the EV trucks..the Modec being one of them....

I don't shop where I can't charge.
At risk of wedging my foot firmly in my mouth, aside from EESTOR is anyone
optimistic about ultra capacitors ? (in the next 10 years)
helping with shorter charge times (combing caps+bats, or if price is right a
whole pack of caps) ?
I know right now its fantasy, but I want to ask....





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Message: 6
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 21:10:14 -0800
From: cowtown@...
Subject: [EVDL] Businessmodel discussion...
To: ev@...
Message-ID:
	 <20091120211014.tq5smi0740w0g8gk-pbjgbja@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes";
	 format="flowed"

<<<< You can get a much nicer vehicle when the whole $15k goes for the
vehicle rather than, say, $5000 for the vehicle and $10,000 for the
conversion. If you're happy driving the $5000 vehicle then you "save"
$10,000 by NOT going electric. >>>>

Owner-builders tend to greatly overprice their EVs (that's just human
nature). If you convert a 15- to 20-year old car, it's a good idea to
look up the Kelly Blue Book value, because if it lists the value as an
ICE as $3K in excellent shape, you'll be hard-pressed to justify
charging $15K as an EV, no matter how expensive the parts. You see
this with EVs for sale on eBay all the time.

Wayne still has the most successful business model: car owners bring
in *their* car and pay only for the conversion (labor and parts).



------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 21:13:32 -0800
From: cowtown@...
Subject: Re: [EVDL] super caps or vaporware
To: ev@...
Message-ID:
	 <20091120211332.8f1v51b4cg4kk8cc-pbjgbja@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes";
	 format="flowed"

<<<< At risk of wedging my foot firmly in my mouth, aside from EESTOR
is anyone
optimistic about ultra capacitors ? (in the next 10 years)
helping with shorter charge times (combing caps+bats, or if price is right a
whole pack of caps) ?
I know right now its fantasy, but I want to ask....>>>>

For all we know, EESTOR may have already spent years with a
foot-in-mouth wedgie.



------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 22:00:03 -0800 (PST)
From: dale henderson <hendersonmotorcycles@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] kelly 1200amp controller
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <254319.83777.qm@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

unless kelly has made major changes in the last year you are correct, if i were
to redo my vw bus conversion today, i would get the warp/logisystem controller
combo

harry

Albuquerque, NM
current bike:  http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1179
current non-bike: http://evalbum.com/1581


--- On Mon, 11/16/09, Morgan LaMoore <morganl@...> wrote:

> From: Morgan LaMoore <morganl@...>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] kelly 1200amp controller
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
> Date: Monday, November 16, 2009, 10:22 PM
> A Zilla Z2k weighs 29.5 pounds; how
> can a Kelly that weighs 6 pounds
> reliably handle 1200A?
>
> Based on what I've heard on this list, I think that Kelly's
> current
> claims are exaggerated unless you care about the peak
> current for a
> few seconds before it enters thermal cutback.
>
> -Morgan LaMoore
>
> On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 2:03 PM, Rich <torich1@...>
> wrote:
> > Kelly 1200 amp controller
> >
> > http://www.kellycontroller.com/shop/?mod=product&product_ID=453&cat_ID=34,33
> > -------------- next part --------------
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> > Name: not available
> > Type: multipart/alternative
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> > -------------- next part --------------
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> > No virus found in this outgoing message.
> > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.2/1785 -
> Release Date: 11/13/2008 9:12 AM
> > _______________________________________________
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> > Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
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>






------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 23:36:00 -0700
From: "Mike Nickerson" <mike@...>
Subject: [EVDL] MPG to wh/mile?
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <066b01ca6a74$e4fb1050$aef130f0$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hello everybody,

I've been pondering a question for a while and thought I would ask the group
for their thoughts and wisdom.

I know that the characteristics of the donor vehicle (weight, aerodynamics,
tire pressure, etc) and driving conditions/style (average speed,
acceleration, # starts/stops, etc) both affect the ultimate range of a EV
conversion.  Of course, all these factors also affect the miles per gallon
achieved in an ICE.

I was just wondering if someone has a rough rule of thumb that says
something like:  "If you are getting 35 MPG in a certain vehicle under
certain driving conditions, you will probably use 150-200 wh/mile as an EV."
(I suspect these numbers might be in the ballpark, but I made them up.)

I realize that there are lots of variables that will make this rough measure
imprecise.  For example, the amount of ICE "stuff" you remove will have a
big effect.   Also, whether your batteries are lead or lithium.  However, it
still feels like a range of MPG will likely still correspond to a range of
wh/mile values.

Has anybody worked out some rough correlations?  Maybe by driving a donor
vehicle for awhile before conversion and having MPG before and wh/mile after
conversion?

It seems like this would be a great conversion factor in quickly determining
how much battery capacity might be needed to take a certain vehicle on a
specific commute or range.

Thoughts?

Mike



------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 07:53:38 -0800
From: Jeff Shanab <jshanab@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 28, Issue 29
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <4B080D02.6020908@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I don't know about the rest of you but my car sits in a parking lot at
work for 8 hours and another 8 hours at home.
Either one can give me 8 * 12 * 110 = 10kwh or about 30 miles of daily
average driving
Ok that takes care of probably > 60% of US commuters

When that doesn't cut it I can plug in to 220 * 20A(smallest PFC) * 8 =
35kwh thats 117 Average Daily miles
ok that probably gets us to 80%-90%

I am still charging at home or work, I am still charging while I sleep
or work. No added infrastructure nothing.
You'll notice I said average daily miles. If I have a 200mile range and
do that on friday I don't have to fully recharge that night unless I am
doing 200 miles the next day too.

There are some out there that need 200 miles a day. Since I am a
software engineer, For me that would mean I am being wasteful. I need to
telecommute or move closer to work.

So we need to concentrate on the first 80% of the population and leave
the elite 10-20% of the population for the second generation of
production EV's
How many years did it take for the ICE industry to get where they are
at? We shouldn't expect it to take as long for ev's, we can build on
existing knowledge, but we shouldn't expect them to hit the ground with
100 years of polish.

> Goodness, stop talking like this is trying to put a man on Mars.  Write a
> check and you can have your very own AV-900 capable of recharging a Tesla
> full in about 10 minutes. Once you've hit the can, bought your cup of coffee
> and stretched your legs, your 10 minutes are up. Long haul trips with fast
> charging are not an EV's strong suit, and not what they'll be marketed as
> and used for in the mid term.  Most other charging will be overnight or
> opportunity.
>
> There are technical difficulties, but the gizmo to charge quickly exists.
> And the wiring would be more like eight 2/0 cables, still a sizable cord to
> wield, but not 32.
>
> http://www.avinc.com/downloads/AV-900_WS_Specs.pdf
>
> Erik
>



------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 11:45:54 -0700
From: Bill Dube <billdube@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] MPG to wh/mile?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <20091121185407.CCC2D194EBA@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

The engine efficiency has changed a lot over the years. It also is
very dependant on the displacement to weight ratio for the vehicle.

          As  rule of thumb, you need 500 lbs of lead-acid batteries
for every gallon of gas the original car used. This translates to
about 135 lbs of Li-Ion cells per gallon. Keep in mind that Li-Ion
cells have about half the density of lead-acid. You get about four
times the range per pound, but just over twice the range for the same
size battery box.

          Thus, if you are using Li-Ion, divide the maximum range you
are after by the fuel mileage of the original car. Then multiply that
number by 135 and you will get a reasonable estimate of the size of
the battery pack you will need to install.

          Use 500 instead of 135 if you are using lead-acid batteries.

          Also, you want to pick a maximum range to be about twice
what you need for your daily commute. If you install a pack that
smaller, you will cycle it too deeply too often and when it wears out
even slightly, you won't be able to get to work in the winter.

Bill Dube'

At 11:36 PM 11/20/2009, you wrote:
>Hello everybody,
>
>I've been pondering a question for a while and thought I would ask the group
>for their thoughts and wisdom.
>
>I know that the characteristics of the donor vehicle (weight, aerodynamics,
>tire pressure, etc) and driving conditions/style (average speed,
>acceleration, # starts/stops, etc) both affect the ultimate range of a EV
>conversion.  Of course, all these factors also affect the miles per gallon
>achieved in an ICE.
>
>I was just wondering if someone has a rough rule of thumb that says
>something like:  "If you are getting 35 MPG in a certain vehicle under
>certain driving conditions, you will probably use 150-200 wh/mile as an EV."
>(I suspect these numbers might be in the ballpark, but I made them up.)
>
>I realize that there are lots of variables that will make this rough measure
>imprecise.  For example, the amount of ICE "stuff" you remove will have a
>big effect.   Also, whether your batteries are lead or lithium.  However, it
>still feels like a range of MPG will likely still correspond to a range of
>wh/mile values.
>
>Has anybody worked out some rough correlations?  Maybe by driving a donor
>vehicle for awhile before conversion and having MPG before and wh/mile after
>conversion?
>
>It seems like this would be a great conversion factor in quickly determining
>how much battery capacity might be needed to take a certain vehicle on a
>specific commute or range.
>
>Thoughts?
>
>Mike
>
>_______________________________________________
>General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
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------------------------------

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End of EV Digest, Vol 28, Issue 31
**********************************

Send EV mailing list submissions to
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Today's Topics:

    1. Re: Vectrix - Decisions decisions - help needed (Elithion)
    2. Re: TIME Article on EV's (Dave Hymers)
    3. Re: TIME Article on EV's (Dave Hymers)
    4. Re: TIME Article on EV's (Dave Hymers)
    5. Re: TIME Article on EV's (Evan Tuer)
    6. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place - Businessmodel
       discussion... (Douglas A. Stansfield)
    7. Re: TIME Article on EV's (Geoff Pullinger)
    8. Walter Hand/CBT is out of the office (walter.hand@...)
    9. Very Positive EV article in the LA Times (TiM M)
   10. Re: Vectrix - Decisions decisions - help needed (Christopher Zach)
   11. Re: Very Positive EV article in the LA Times (Dave Hymers)
   12. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place - Businessmodel
       discussion... (Rick Beebe)
   13. Re: EV Digest, Vol 28, Issue 29 (Erik)
   14. Slightly OT: Rust prevention was Re: Start up a RENTYOURPACK
       OF BATTERIES store (phil galati)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 08:31:49 -0800 (PST)
From: Elithion <web@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vectrix - Decisions decisions - help needed
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <1258734709218-624794.post@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii



pic@... wrote:
>
>
> As you guys may know - vectrix [has] gone fairly belly-up...
> ... problems with ...  weak cells in the battery...
>
>

There is a glimmer of hope for the Vectrix battery.
Last year we designed a BMS for the Vetrix Li-Ion battery pack. Vectrix
owners contact us often about a replacement battery, but
http://peakbattery.com/ K2 Energy  owns the design, we don't, so we can't
help you. But K2 might. There are of course some tricky political issues to
be addressed before K2 can offer Vectrix Li-Ion batteries, but if Vectrix
owners contact K2, something may actually happen.
D'de
Davide Andrea


-----
Davide Andrea
http://liionbms.com/php/index.php Elithion
--
View this message in context:
http://n4.nabble.com/Vectrix-Decisions-decisions-help-needed-tp624571p624794.htm\
l
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 09:34:27 -0700
From: Dave Hymers <dhymers@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] TIME Article on EV's
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <ec811c3f0911200834v2e234bb3gc98200d423e5618e@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

At risk of wedging my foot firmly in my mouth, aside from EESTOR is anyone
optimistic about ultra capacitors ? (in the next 10 years)
helping with shorter charge times (combing caps+bats, or if price is right a
whole pack of caps) ?
I know right now its fantasy, but I want to ask....

I know there was a company that was converting saturn SUVs and was showing
ultra caps in their promotional vids...
anyone know who they are/where ?
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Message: 3
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 09:36:23 -0700
From: Dave Hymers <dhymers@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] TIME Article on EV's
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <ec811c3f0911200836l4036a369xeaa35d7b267c69e9@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

AFS Trinity
http://afstrinity.com/xh.htm
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Message: 4
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 09:38:07 -0700
From: Dave Hymers <dhymers@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] TIME Article on EV's
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <ec811c3f0911200838i73a5410ap45051eba0984f457@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

  I guess thats just to ease pack use under acceleration and for fast
regen.... my bad.
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Message: 5
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 16:41:52 +0000
From: Evan Tuer <evan.tuer@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] TIME Article on EV's
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <cc7432af0911200841n4cce752led8a789c0c60c8fe@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 3:00 PM, Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...> wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 6:25 AM, Evan Tuer <evan.tuer@...> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 8:30 PM, Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > ?#4, Fast charging is a marketing myth, a five minute recharge would
>> > require a direct line to Niagra Falls or your ?regional nuclear plant.
>>
>> It's never a good idea to exaggerate and say things can never be done
>> if they are technically feasible, even if you think it's not
>> worthwhile for some reason.
>>
>> For example: a 20kWh battery of 400V. ?That's good for 75 miles of
>> highway driving.
>> Recharging 80% within 5 minutes would require:
>>
>> (20000 * .8) / 400 = 40A for 1 hour or 480A for 5 minutes, call that 200kW.
>>
>> Larger commercial premises have supplies which can fulfill that as
>> standard.
>>
>> Connectors and cables which can handle this current and voltage for 5
>> minutes are nothing special either.
>>
>> You'd need to use the best batteries currently available to accept a
>> 10C charge rate, but it's far from impossible.
>>
>> ===========My math assumptions were a little different than yours========
>>
>
> I'm driving 200 miles ( Proven reasonable range by Tesla Drivers.) then
> recharging in five minutes to ioo% full requires 53 KWh and if our charger
> is 90 % efficient a five minute charge from a 220 AC V. source requires 3200
> Amperes. Or enough to supply a housing development of 32 to 50 homes...And
> the convenience store next to the Interstate where I sometimes buy Gasoline
> has 16 pumps all capable of full flow at the same time. An equavilent EV
> recharger would require the supply suitable of a small town with 800 homes.
> Also the plug in cable would be 32 strands of 2/0 cable or an alternative.
> I admit it just takes a medium size substation and not Niagra Falls full
> output

I chose 75 miles as you mentioned it, and it seems realistic.   You've
chosen all sorts of worst-case extremes and unrealistic scenarios to
prove that EVs can't do something.

For a start, large loads like this would never be run from a single
phase of 220V.

Secondly, who set 5 minutes in stone?  You have gone 3 times further,
so take 15 minutes for an 80% charge instead, and the Tesla can be
charged by the same supply to the one in my first example - which
needs a perfectly ordinary 3 phase cable like the one brought to any
factory or office building.



On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 4:08 PM, Collin Kidder <collink@...> wrote:

> Also, 32 strands of 2/0 is horribly large
> and there is no way anyone would want that sort of wiring inside a car
> (which it would have to do for the wires to the batteries to take that
> sort of current.)

You see what happens when you start spreading fear, uncertainty and
doubt about EVs?  We are talking about 200kW charge levels.  The Tesla
is already capable of about 200kW DIScharge, so why are the cabling
requirements suddenly unthinkable?  We're only talking about 500A or
so - which practically every conversion sees anyway.

Maybe it wouldn't be very easy or practical, but it's certainly not a
myth, just like the long range of the Tesla turned out not to be a
myth as certain people decried it when it was first announced.



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 12:30:15 -0500
From: "Douglas A. Stansfield" <Doug@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
	 Businessmodel discussion...
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <033701ca6a07$1f40b490$5dc21db0$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dear Phil,

My partners conversion got 5 years out of his Lead Acid batteries and he
used it everyday.  That was the estimate I was using although he wasn't
driving quite as far as my example.  Anyway, as Lithium starts to come down
(which I expect it to based on conversations I have had with a domestic
Lithium battery company) the ranges should be totally doable as well as
almost all the EV parts being manufactured here!!!

Sincerely;

Douglas A. Stansfield
President
www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
973-875-6276 (office)
973-670-9208 (cell)
973-440-1619 (fax)

WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS







-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
Of Phil Marino
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 11:04 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
Businessmodel discussion...

Douglas

I don't agree with the numbers you used for your calculation:

If you're driving 60 miles a day ( your numbers ), that's 300 miles/week or
about 15000 miles/year.  So, if you replace your pack every 5 years ( again,
your numbers) you would have to get 75000 miles out of a lead acid pack.
  Except for very unusual cases, isn't 10,000 (or 20,000 maximum) miles more
common?

If you assume 20K miles per pack, the EV costs a whole lot more.  As others
have said before, EV converters don't do it to save money.

Phil Marino



On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 5:01 PM, Douglas A. Stansfield <
Doug@...> wrote:

> >"Actually, it's fairly hard to get the cost per mile of your EV below
that
> of an equivalent ICE. I can do it, but I'm a cheapskate and have lots of
> >experience at it. :-) I'll bet most EV owners wind up paying more per
> mile."
>
> My feeling is this....
>
> It all comes down to "opportunity costs"
>
> If I needed a commuter car because I wanted to get away from my two large
> vehicles in order to cut down on my commuting expense I have two choices:
>
> 1) buy a New or Used EconoBox that gets better mileage
> 2) Get a donor car and create an EV yourself or have a conversion shop do
> it
> for you.
>
> If you budget $15,000 for your new or used econobox or a conversion my
> feeling is over a 5 to 7 year period you save money with the EV.
>
> Lets say you drive 30 miles or less each way to work and can charge at
your
> office for a 60 mile round trip.  I calculate that if you had a 22 mpg
> rated
> ICE that you bought you would be much better off with the EV instead.  At
> $2.40 per gallon for gas in NJ (it's a little higher now) you would use
2.7
> gallons per day thus your gas cost per day would be $6.55.  To charge up
> for
> that mileage at $0.03 per mile electricity would cost you $1.80 per day.
>  So
> weekly you would spend $32.73 with the gas car back and forth to work and
> $9.00 a week charging for the same distance.  Every month that is $141.82
> for the luxury of buying gas, vs. $39 a month worth of electricity.  Every
> year, you Spend $1,701 on Gas, and $468 on Electricity.  In Five years,
you
> would save $6165.  If you needed to buy another lead acid pack, at year
> five
> I doubt they would cost you that much.  Based on my Trojan Price chart, 24
> 6
> volt T145s at retail are around $218.95 each.  So a new pack cost would be
> $5254.80.. Thus, the EV still wins by $910!!!  And I didn't factor in the
> lack of maintenance the EV has over the ICE nor the recent tax incentives
> for owning one.  All in all the EV still wins.  The pricing would be the
> same for the Better Place based on their model.  While I want to see EVs
> and
> if people want to use the Better Place system fantastic.  Less foreign oil
> and more of our capital staying in the USA.  I just don't want to pay that
> way but I welcome them and Coulomb and everyone else moving us closer to
> having electric cars on our nations roads.
>
>
> Sincerely;
>
> Douglas A. Stansfield
> President
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 11:50:38 -0600
From: Geoff Pullinger <gpullinger@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] TIME Article on EV's
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <23aefa940911200950o344c999m4d902b7cd28dd836@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

I never read Time magazine and I don't know anybody else who does either.
Time and CNN of course are the same and CNN has an anti electric car bias
which probably stems from it's global warming denial bias.  I have an
electric car because it doesn't use petroleum.  I don't care if that's good
or bad for anything other than giving me a choice about how to fuel my own
transportation.  The fact that it is cheaper than oil is good.  The electric
utilities don't have a problem with selling more electricity.  Why the heck
would anyone else care? I read this article and it is total nonsense from
beginning to end!

On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 9:00 AM, Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...> wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 6:25 AM, Evan Tuer <evan.tuer@...> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 8:30 PM, Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >  #4, Fast charging is a marketing myth, a five minute recharge would
> > > require a direct line to Niagra Falls or your  regional nuclear plant.
> >
> > It's never a good idea to exaggerate and say things can never be done
> > if they are technically feasible, even if you think it's not
> > worthwhile for some reason.
> >
> > For example: a 20kWh battery of 400V.  That's good for 75 miles of
> > highway driving.
> > Recharging 80% within 5 minutes would require:
> >
> > (20000 * .8) / 400 = 40A for 1 hour or 480A for 5 minutes, call that
> 200kW.
> >
> > Larger commercial premises have supplies which can fulfill that as
> > standard.
> >
> > Connectors and cables which can handle this current and voltage for 5
> > minutes are nothing special either.
> >
> > You'd need to use the best batteries currently available to accept a
> > 10C charge rate, but it's far from impossible.
> >
> > ===========My math assumptions were a little different than yours========
> >
>
> I'm driving 200 miles ( Proven reasonable range by Tesla Drivers.) then
> recharging in five minutes to ioo% full requires 53 KWh and if our charger
> is 90 % efficient a five minute charge from a 220 AC V. source requires
> 3200
> Amperes. Or enough to supply a housing development of 32 to 50 homes...And
> the convenience store next to the Interstate where I sometimes buy Gasoline
> has 16 pumps all capable of full flow at the same time. An equavilent EV
> recharger would require the supply suitable of a small town with 800 homes.
> Also the plug in cable would be 32 strands of 2/0 cable or an alternative.
> I admit it just takes a medium size substation and not Niagra Falls full
> output. But charging at home in six hours takes only 44 A. so it could be
> handled with a 50 A. rated "Range Outlet" or charging in 12 hours takes 22
> A. so that works with a 30 A. "Dryer Outlet."
> You are correct, it is not "Impossible," however I feel it is far from
> likely.  (:-))
>
> Regards,
>    Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
> Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
> Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
>       Phone (863) 289 - 0690
> "We provide Mentoring, Small Group Instruction, and Hands-On training
> for the EV Technicians: Building, Converting, Repairing, and Servicing
>  the Electric Vehicles of Today, and the Future."
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> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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>
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Message: 8
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 13:55:57 -0500
From: walter.hand@...
Subject: [EVDL] Walter Hand/CBT is out of the office
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <OFCC33038C.EE39B296-ON85257674.0068001D-85257674.0068001D@...>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


I will be out of the office starting  11/20/2009 and will not return until
11/30/2009.

Immediate Concerns to  the In Charge-Design 565-3856,else, I will respond to
your message
when I return.

The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which
it is
addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material.  Any review,
retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in
reliance upon,
this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is
prohibited.
If you receive this in error, please contact the sender and destroy any copies
of this
document.





------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 10:58:46 -0800 (PST)
From: TiM M <mr_tim34@...>
Subject: [EVDL] Very Positive EV article in the LA Times
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <234234.27043.qm@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-neil20-2009nov20,0,5609464.column

He got to drive around in the Leaf and was impressed....

TiM







------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 14:02:20 -0500
From: Christopher Zach <czach@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vectrix - Decisions decisions - help needed
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B06E7BC.30909@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Elithion wrote:
> There is a glimmer of hope for the Vectrix battery.
> Last year we designed a BMS for the Vetrix Li-Ion battery pack. Vectrix
> owners contact us often about a replacement battery, but
> http://peakbattery.com/ K2 Energy  owns the design, we don't, so we can't
> help you. But K2 might. There are of course some tricky political issues to
> be addressed before K2 can offer Vectrix Li-Ion batteries, but if Vectrix
> owners contact K2, something may actually happen.

Out of curiosity, K2 owns the "design" of what? Are you saying that a
third party cannot make a better battery for the Vectrix?

C



------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 12:43:58 -0700
From: Dave Hymers <dhymers@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Very Positive EV article in the LA Times
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <ec811c3f0911201143m681c6723nc9dffed991817404@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

"the car spools out velocity in one continuous, syrupy stream. It's nothing
short of elegant."

Great article.
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Message: 12
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 14:51:12 -0500
From: Rick Beebe <rick@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
	 Businessmodel discussion...
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B06F330.5090102@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Douglas A. Stansfield wrote:
> If I needed a commuter car because I wanted to get away from my two large
> vehicles in order to cut down on my commuting expense I have two choices:
>
> 1) buy a New or Used EconoBox that gets better mileage
> 2) Get a donor car and create an EV yourself or have a conversion shop do it
> for you.
>
> If you budget $15,000 for your new or used econobox or a conversion my
> feeling is over a 5 to 7 year period you save money with the EV.

You can get a much nicer vehicle when the whole $15k goes for the
vehicle rather than, say, $5000 for the vehicle and $10,000 for the
conversion. If you're happy driving the $5000 vehicle then you "save"
$10,000 by NOT going electric.

> Lets say you drive 30 miles or less each way to work and can charge at your
> office for a 60 mile round trip.  I calculate that if you had a 22 mpg rated
> ICE that you bought you would be much better off with the EV instead.

Actually, money-wise you'd be better off buying a 27mpg ICE. In your
example, it would cost $115.56 month or $1386.74 per year. Over 5 years
you would have saved $4590, but since the battery pack costs $5254.80
the EV loses by $664. It actually gets worse for me, though, because in
Connecticut it costs about 6 cents per mile for electricity which means
the EV costs $3000 more over 5 years.

My own conundrum: I bought a '97 Miata for $4000 to convert. In the mean
time it gets 27mpg and my commute is 20 miles round trip. Using your
example figures, I use .74 gallons per day or $1.77 in gas. I will use
about 30 cents of electricity. That's $382 in savings per year. (note
that all of these examples erroneously assume we commute 52 weeks per
year). If it costs me $10,000 to convert the Miata to electric, it will
take a little over 26 years to get my money back. That's disregarding
any engine maintenance or pack replacements of course. Nor does it
consider tax incentives.

BUT there are more important reasons, in my mind, for driving an EV that
have nothing to do with saving money. And those reasons make spending
the extra money worth it.

A second BUT. If I can buy a new commuter car in ICE or EV for basically
the same price, I'd buy the EV in a minute. Using a pack replacement at
$5254.80 every 5 years, if I can lease the pack for less than $1000 year
it would also be a winner.

--Rick



------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 14:55:30 -0500
From: Erik <electricbasset@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 28, Issue 29
To: ev@...
Message-ID:
	 <4394775c0911201155u30ca255at1c7b51f05fc3116e@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Goodness, stop talking like this is trying to put a man on Mars.  Write a
check and you can have your very own AV-900 capable of recharging a Tesla
full in about 10 minutes. Once you've hit the can, bought your cup of coffee
and stretched your legs, your 10 minutes are up. Long haul trips with fast
charging are not an EV's strong suit, and not what they'll be marketed as
and used for in the mid term.  Most other charging will be overnight or
opportunity.

There are technical difficulties, but the gizmo to charge quickly exists.
And the wiring would be more like eight 2/0 cables, still a sizable cord to
wield, but not 32.

http://www.avinc.com/downloads/AV-900_WS_Specs.pdf

Erik


Message: 25
> Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 11:08:42 -0500
> From: Collin Kidder <collink@...>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] TIME Article on EV's
> To: ev@...
> Message-ID: <4B06BF0A.5080106@...>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> On 11/20/2009 10:00 AM, Dennis Miles wrote:
> >
> >> ===========My math assumptions were a little different than
> yours========
> >>
> >>
> > I'm driving 200 miles ( Proven reasonable range by Tesla Drivers.) then
> > recharging in five minutes to ioo% full requires 53 KWh and if our
> charger
> > is 90 % efficient a five minute charge from a 220 AC V. source requires
> 3200
> > Amperes. Or enough to supply a housing development of 32 to 50
> homes...And
> > the convenience store next to the Interstate where I sometimes buy
> Gasoline
> > has 16 pumps all capable of full flow at the same time. An equavilent EV
> > recharger would require the supply suitable of a small town with 800
> homes.
> > Also the plug in cable would be 32 strands of 2/0 cable or an
> alternative.
> > I admit it just takes a medium size substation and not Niagra Falls full
> > output. But charging at home in six hours takes only 44 A. so it could be
> > handled with a 50 A. rated "Range Outlet" or charging in 12 hours takes
> 22
> > A. so that works with a 30 A. "Dryer Outlet."
> > You are correct, it is not "Impossible," however I feel it is far from
> > likely.  (:-))
> >
> > Regards,
> >      Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
> >
>
> Not only that but at 90% efficiency in the charger there is 10% waste.
> Some of it might be reactive instead of resistive but let's guess an
> easy number and say it's 50/50. So 5% resistive loss at 220V 3200A is
> 35,200 watts of heat. You'd better have a really good heatsink on that
> charger! It's now a furnace. Also, 32 strands of 2/0 is horribly large
> and there is no way anyone would want that sort of wiring inside a car
> (which it would have to do for the wires to the batteries to take that
> sort of current.) I think that, short of super conductors, this will
> never be a reality. A future scenario I could see working would be to
> have the batteries removable. Then the super quick charger and all it's
> bulk could be located outside the car. It doesn't matter if an external
> charger which is made for the heat gets 35,200 watts of heating.
>
>
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Message: 14
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 13:56:20 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
From: "phil galati" <philgalati2004@...>
Subject: [EVDL] Slightly OT: Rust prevention was Re: Start up a
	 RENTYOURPACK OF BATTERIES store
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B06E654.00000A.35612@DADSCOMPUTER>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Just to Let you guys know. We can still get a discount on POR-15 Rust
Preventive paints
At www.por15.Com. The discount code is AMX0109 and is good for 10% off.

If you haven't used this paint yet, you will be surprised how durable it is.
If you are going to use it on a battery box, coat it
At least 2 coats. If you have wet batteries use 3 coats.

Phil Galati
Trans Atlantic Electric Conversions
New Jersey


-------Original Message-------

From: Bob Rice
Date: 11/19/2009 8:07:21 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Slightly OT: Rust prevention was Re: Start up a
RENTYOURPACK OF BATTERIES store

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dennis Miles" <dmiles33810@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 1:31 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Slightly OT: Rust prevention was Re: Start up a RENTYOUR
PACK OF BATTERIES store


> On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 10:49 PM, David Nelson <gizmoev@...> wrote:
>
>> When I was a kid we lived on Majuro in the Marshal Islands in the Pacific
>> Ocean just north of the equator. (You can find it on Google Earth.) Every
>> time we bought a new pickup it went through Guam and was taken to the
>> Zebart
>> undercoating shop and they did basically the same thing that Dennis
>> described. We could actually get over 5 years out of a pickup! By
>> comparison, a non-undercoated pickup would literally rust out in 2 years.
>> I
>> remember my Dad talking about a tiny rust spot he saw one evening on the
>> bumper of the pickup. By the next morning there was a hole clear through
>> the
>> bumper that you could see through! Undercoating does help.

    And VW Rabbits, too! Great car to convert, sturdy, handy aftermarket
parts, etc. But RUST BUCKETS! The #$%^ windshields leaked in the Drivers
side in particular, pissing water down behind the dash, attacking the door
posts, you had to LIFT the door up, to close it! The fuse box, or strip got
wet, causing endless electrical issues, Oh, same for older Jettas,
too!When's the L:AST time ya saw a Rabbit in places where there is weather?
Rumer has it that there are STILL Rabbits, etc,Out West? In that I have a 20
year old Jetta is no small miricle, It WAS undercoated and musta led a
charmed life in it's early years?Well for that matter any OLDER Datsuns' The
White Zombie woulda been mulch 20 YEARS ago, had it been born on the Least
Coast!Sure miss those simple, computerless cars! Hard around here to find
basic, simple , clean doner cars.

     Seeya

     Bob
>> --
>> David D. Nelson
>> http://evalbum.com/1328
>> ===================== Zebart, oh yes I remember that===============
>
> David, in the mid sixties when I was in High School and Community College,
> My Dad liked AMC autos, we had about four. And local Zebart shops did
> after
> market undercoating with zinc loaded wax, then AMC made Zebarting a
> standard
> upgrade and did it to every car they built at the factory.  Back then
> other
> cars rusted and so we said, "On a quiet night you can hear a Ford rust!"
> (;-))     And, "Chevrolet, Chevrolet, pick it up? No, let it lay..."
> Regards,
>     Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
> Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
> Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
>       Phone (863) 289 - 0690
> "We provide Mentoring, Small Group Instruction, and Hands-On training for
> the EV Technicians: Building, Converting, Repairing, and Servicing the
> Electric Vehicles of Today, and the Future."
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End of EV Digest, Vol 28, Issue 30
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Today's Topics:

    1. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place - Businessmodel
       discussion... (Roger Stockton)
    2. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place - Businessmodel
       discussion... (Lee Hart)
    3. Re: TIME Article on EV's (Dennis Miles)
    4. Re: GEM, Suzuki, misc (Lee Hart)
    5. Re: Optimum A123 Racing Pack (Bill Dube)
    6. Re: Optimum A123 Racing Pack (Bill Dube)
    7. Re: Optimum A123 Racing Pack (Roger Heuckeroth)
    8. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place - Businessmodel
       discussion... (Douglas A. Stansfield)
    9. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place - Businessmodel
       discussion... (Douglas A. Stansfield)
   10. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place - Businessmodel
       discussion... (Dave Davidson)
   11. Re: Insightless MPG (Jack Murray)
   12. Re: GEM, Suzuki, misc (David Roden)
   13. Re: GEM, Suzuki, misc (Martin K)
   14. Re: GEM, Suzuki, misc (joe)
   15. Re: GEM, Suzuki, misc (Lee Hart)
   16. Re: Insightless MPG (Evan Tuer)
   17.  Vectrix - Decisions decisions - help needed (chris)
   18. Re: TIME Article on EV's (Evan Tuer)
   19. Vectrix - Decisions decisions - help needed (chris)
   20. Re: Insightless MPG (Rush)
   21. Re: OK you-all create an alternative to the car computer (tomw)
   22. Re: TIME Article on EV's (Dennis Miles)
   23. Re: Insightless MPG (Jeff Shanab)
   24. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place - Businessmodel
       discussion... (Phil Marino)
   25. Re: TIME Article on EV's (Collin Kidder)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 12:13:39 -0800
From: Roger Stockton <rstockton@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
	 Businessmodel discussion...
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <706F54AA6AA33D48AD2CDA168A1E35CF2A227A931A@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Douglas A. Stansfield wrote:

> I don't want to pay my Gas car per mile rate to drive my
> EV....  $0.15 per mile versus $0.02 per mile.  With Net
> metering and V2G the cost to charge could drop significantly.
>  I had a speaker at my NJ Electric Auto Association meeting
> on Tuesday night that showed a potential "floating"
> electricity rate based on demand and thus the peak demand KWH
> rate was $0.12 (same as my all the time rate now) and the
> overnight rate was $0.02 per KWH.
> If I charge my car at that rate overnight, I am almost
> driving for free!!!!

It is a common misconception that our EVs run on electricity; in fact, they run
on *batteries*.

The electricity cost is a very small part of your $/mi operating cost; the
majority of the cost is the battery that you consume.

If I have a $2400 pack of flooded golf car batteries (144V = 24 x 6V at
$100/battery), and I manage to drive 15,000 before being forced to replace them,
then my cost per mile is $2400/15000= $0.16/mi even if the electricity I use is
*free*.

At 200Wh/mi, I will use 3000kWh *from the battery* over the course of driving
15,000mi.  At $0.10/kWh, this energy still only costs $300 and adds only
$0.02/mi to my operating cost; if I wear out a set of tires over 30,000mi (two
sets of batteries), this adds as much or more to my per-mile operating cost than
the electricity does.

I appreciate that many people dislike leasing vs buying, however, consider why
the auto company may want to go this route: they don't yet know just how long
the battery is going to last, and certainly don't want to be in the position of
selling you this battery and then being on the hook for having offered you a
longer warranty period than the battery can survive.

Considering that a pack of floodies is likely to cost at least $0.16/mi before
electricity costs, if the auto company is prepared to sell me an EV but lease me
an advanced battery for similar (or less!) cost per mile than buying a lead pack
so that I don't have to purchase an expensive advanced battery and gamble on it
outlasting the warranty, I'm certainly not going to object! ;^>

Once the battery (and BMS) technology is more mature and has a proven track
record, I can always replace the leased battery with one I have bought outright.
(We presently convert OEM vehicles from ICE to electric; I seriously doubt that
converting an OEM electric vehicle to use some other battery will be an
insurmountable challenge...)

Cheers,

Roger.



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 14:24:34 -0600
From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
	 Businessmodel discussion...
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B05A982.5070201@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Douglas A. Stansfield wrote:
> I don't want to pay my Gas car per mile rate to drive my EV....  $0.15 per
> mile versus $0.02 per mile.

What are you paying per mile for batteries (purchase price divided by
total number of miles you get on the pack)? For me, battery cost exceeds
electricity cost per mile.

> With Net metering and V2G the cost to charge
> could drop significantly.  I had a speaker at my NJ Electric Auto
> Association meeting on Tuesday night that showed a potential "floating"
> electricity rate based on demand and thus the peak demand KWH rate was $0.12
> (same as my all the time rate now) and the overnight rate was $0.02 per KWH.

How can they make this work? The present rate should be about the
average of the peak and off-peak rates. With my utility, going to time
of use billing more than doubles the rate during peaks, but only reduces
it moderately for off peak. To come out cheaper overall, I'd have to use
almost all my power off-peak!

> As I understand the Better Place Model they take the ICE cost per mile and
> charge you the same amount for the EV.  That profit margin is why the
> company raised a record amount of first round venture funding.....

I suspect that most people see this as a positive thing. They worry that
battery life will be short and electricity cost will be high; thus, the
Better Place model gives them an "insurance policy" that they won't pay
more for their EV than for their ICE.

Actually, it's fairly hard to get the cost per mile of your EV below
that of an equivalent ICE. I can do it, but I'm a cheapskate and have
lots of experience at it. :-) I'll bet most EV owners wind up paying
more per mile.
--
Lee A. Hart  | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N  | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 15:30:45 -0500
From: Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] TIME Article on EV's
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <2b4886ce0911191230y426267e3paac112e8e57da110@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"

On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 1:35 PM, Steven Lough <stevenslough@...>wrote:

> Took great issue with a recent TIME article on EV's   Sent the following
> Letter to the Editor...
>
> Article read:
> As Electric Cars Arrive, Where Will They Plug In?
>
> Check it out and add your own voice at:
>
> http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1940117,00.html
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Dear TIME:
>   Take Great issue with your first LINE. ."There are probably fewer
> than 1,500 plug-in electric vehicles on the road"
>
> In our City alone  One of our EV Dealers has sold OVER 300 Road Worthy
> Electric Cars.  And this does not count a growing fleet of TESLA
> Roadsters, and dozens of Home Built Converted gas cars to Electric.
>
> Check out the ( www.EV Photo Album ) for a few thousand more.
>
> California's brief experiment with EV's in the mid 90's found that even
> with HUNDREDS of public charging stations, 95% of EV Owners charged AT
> HOME every evening.  The so-called ?Infrastructure? is already HERE.
>
>  The Electric Power Research Institute (EPRI) calculates that 80% of
> all the motor cars in America could be Electric Tomorrow night, and if
> they charged at home off peak, that there would be no need for any
> further electric generation than what we already have.  Please do more
> research before publication?
>
> Steve Lough
> President
> Seattle EV Association
> Chapter of the National EAA(www.eaaev.org)
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> PS: For those of you who get e-mail from CalCar.org, please take the
> time to read the OpEd which Thomas Friedman recently wrote in the NY
> Times...  He's MY kind of guy.....
> --
> Steven S. Lough, Pres.
> Seattle EV Association
> 6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
> Seattle,  WA  98115-7230
> Day:  206 524 1351
> Cell:   206 850 8535
> e-mail: stevenslough@...
> web:     http://www.seattleeva.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> ============ I e-mailed "Time "Also ===============================

To:    letters@...
  Dear Sirs;

I must disagree with a few of the points in the article, "As Electric Cars
Arrive, Where Will They Plug In? "

  #1, the number of plug-in electric vehicles is closer to 3,000 if you
consider  gasoline powered cars converted to electric along with the  fleet
vehicles you included  and the plug-in hybrids. You only seem to include
vehicles from Major Manufacturers.

   #2, Charging an electric plug in vehicle uses no more power than an
electric clothes dryer, most homes are adequately supplied, although the
electric utilities may be seeking grants for unnecessary grid upgrades
anyway, (It's the American Way!)

   #3,Terminal locations like shopping malls, and workplaces, and highway
travel intermediate locations  for trips over 75 miles will come with demand
and higher gasoline prices. But the most used charging location  will always
be at home.
   #4, Fast charging is a marketing myth, a five minute recharge would
require a direct line to Niagra Falls or your  regional nuclear plant.
-- Regards,
     Dennis Miles,    (Director)
Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
        Phone (863) 289 - 0690
(Like John Hancock said, "So George can read it without his Glasses.")
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Message: 4
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 14:37:18 -0600
From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] GEM, Suzuki, misc
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B05AC7E.5020503@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

EVDL Administrator wrote:
> I got no hits for the phrase "magnetic repulse technology" in a search
> engine, so I don't know for sure what that might be.  However, we do have a
> long-standing ban here on discussion of overunity devices, "free energy,"
> and similar gimmicks that seem to violate the laws of classical physics.
>
> That includes the "magnetic repulsion" motors.

The repulsion motor is an old (now obsolete) type of motor. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repulsion_motor.

They run on AC, but have a commutator and brushes, and look rather like
a DC motor. Their main virtue was that they had a wide speed range and
high starting torque with low current draw, like a series DC motor. In
fact, they were used as traction motors in streetcars and trains that
had overhead wires or a third rail to bring AC to the vehicle.
--
Lee A. Hart  | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N  | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 13:38:18 -0700
From: Bill Dube <billdube@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Optimum A123 Racing Pack
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <20091119203822.1903B194EAF@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

Voltage sag under load will result in a motor voltage of about 170 to
180 volts.


At 07:11 AM 11/19/2009, you wrote:
>I can see how higher voltage would help a Z2K with series /parallel
>shifting dual motor set up, but if you are running a standard single
>Warp 11 and are limited by the volts that the motor can take, would
>you really gain anything by having a 375V pack.  I know that would put
>you in a class A3 instead of B.
>
>
>On Nov 18, 2009, at 10:51 PM, Bill Dube wrote:
>
> > You need to look at the KillaCycle web page.
> > http://www.killacycle.com/photos/battery-assembly-110s-x-9p/
> >
> > Then you need to upgrade to a Z2K-HV. ;-)
> >
> > Each cell will put out about 130 to 135 amps at room temperature
> > without sagging below half open circuit voltage. (OCV) The Zilla HV
> > will be happy at 375 volts (or less) input voltage. Unless you want
> > to be clever about removing "surface charge" before connection to the
> > controller, you would want to set the fully-charged voltage for the
> > pack at 375 (or less.) Thus, you would want 375/3.75 = 100 cells in
> > series.
> >
> > For 1000 amps, you would want 1000/130 = 8 cells in parallel. (If you
> > install heaters, or are willing to warm up the cells by multiple runs
> > in a short period, you can possibly go with fewer cells in parallel.)
> >
> > Of course, if you are plunking down the cash for that pack, you
> > should definitely upgrade to a Z2K-HV and build a pack to take the
> > full 1800 amp input current. This would be 13 or 14 cells in parallel.
> >
> > Bill Dube'
> >
> > At 08:19 PM 11/18/2009, you wrote:
> >> I was thinking about what would be the ideal drag racing battery pack
> >> for my set up.  I have a Warp 11 and a Z1K-HV.  A 20kW lithium
> >> battery
> >> pack is on order which is optimized towards range, not power.
> >>
> >> If I wanted decided to get a second "drag racing pack", what would
> >> the
> >> ideal parameters be for such a pack.  As I understand it the Warp
> >> motor should be limited to about 160-170V.  Got this from multiple
> >> sources, so is there any value in getting a battery pack that
> >> produces
> >> more than 1000 amps at 170V?
> >>
> >> A123 cells seam like the gold standard for high power output.  As I
> >> understand it the A123 26650 Cell can put out 70 Amps continuous and
> >> 120 A (for 10 sec).  I'm sure the voltage probably sags down to about
> >> 2.5 V/cell at 70 Amps, so I figure a 15P68S pack is needed to put out
> >> 1000 A at 170V.  That's 1020 cells, and even if I can get them for
> >> $5/
> >> each thats still $5,100 + BMS.  I know others have spent way more,
> >> but
> >> I'm not sure I want to race that bad:^)
> >>
> >> The new A123 32113 cells look very interesting.  I assume they are
> >> about a 10Ah cell.  If so, and they can put out 30C like their
> >> smaller
> >> counterpart, then you would only need 4P68S to get the same
> >> performance. That would only be 272 cells, but as far as I can tell
> >> they are unoptanium at this point.
> >>
> >> Anybody have any thoughts along these lines.
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
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> >
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>
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------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 14:09:05 -0700
From: Bill Dube <billdube@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Optimum A123 Racing Pack
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <20091119210932.0861696D33@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

The question was "Optimum" racing pack.

The pack I suggested is the one that will produce the most HP with
the least weight (without adding heaters or playing with bleeding off
surface charge) into a Zilla with a motor that will withstand ~170
volts. It is also the most HP per dollar under those constraints if
you are using A123Systems cells.

One can move away from that optimum if additional constraints or
conditions must be met. You can build a much more expensive and
massive pack at a lower voltage. The car will go slower, but it might
possibly be faster than others in a specific voltage class. That was
not the question asked, however.

The pack I suggested would not be the very top voltage class. At the
starting line, the pack voltage would be about 100 x 3.375 = 338
volts. This would be in the A2 voltage class. You could drop down to
97 cells in series to put yourself in the "A" voltage class. The car
would go slower, of course.

What you must keep in mind is that there are open records in A, A1,
and A2 voltage classes for Street Conversion (SC). Pro Street
conversion (PS) has an open record in the A voltage class. Extreme
Street (XS) has open records in A2 and A3.

You can see that it all depends on the specifics of the vehicle
whether a lower voltage is an advantage in setting a record.

Bill Dube'

>Bill said that each cell will put out 130-135 A at half cell voltage
>(3.75/2 = 1.875V)  That would be 8P cells to get 1000A.  However, if
>you go for a stiffer pack like 15P68S, then you stay in a lower
>voltage class, and have more chance of holding a record.
>
>See:  http://www.nedra.com/class_rules.html
>
>_______________________________________________
>General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 16:36:42 -0500
From: Roger Heuckeroth <rheuckeroth@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Optimum A123 Racing Pack
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <51946A00-50A7-4601-B24A-007249E3DD60@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes

Bill,

Are any of the other larger cells that A123 has on their website
available.  Are you still using a 26650 pack?

Roger

On Nov 19, 2009, at 4:09 PM, Bill Dube wrote:

> The question was "Optimum" racing pack.
>
> The pack I suggested is the one that will produce the most HP with
> the least weight (without adding heaters or playing with bleeding off
> surface charge) into a Zilla with a motor that will withstand ~170
> volts. It is also the most HP per dollar under those constraints if
> you are using A123Systems cells.
>
> One can move away from that optimum if additional constraints or
> conditions must be met. You can build a much more expensive and
> massive pack at a lower voltage. The car will go slower, but it might
> possibly be faster than others in a specific voltage class. That was
> not the question asked, however.
>
> The pack I suggested would not be the very top voltage class. At the
> starting line, the pack voltage would be about 100 x 3.375 = 338
> volts. This would be in the A2 voltage class. You could drop down to
> 97 cells in series to put yourself in the "A" voltage class. The car
> would go slower, of course.
>
> What you must keep in mind is that there are open records in A, A1,
> and A2 voltage classes for Street Conversion (SC). Pro Street
> conversion (PS) has an open record in the A voltage class. Extreme
> Street (XS) has open records in A2 and A3.
>
> You can see that it all depends on the specifics of the vehicle
> whether a lower voltage is an advantage in setting a record.
>
> Bill Dube'
>
>> Bill said that each cell will put out 130-135 A at half cell voltage
>> (3.75/2 = 1.875V)  That would be 8P cells to get 1000A.  However, if
>> you go for a stiffer pack like 15P68S, then you stay in a lower
>> voltage class, and have more chance of holding a record.
>>
>> See:  http://www.nedra.com/class_rules.html
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
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> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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>



------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:01:30 -0500
From: "Douglas A. Stansfield" <Doug@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
	 Businessmodel discussion...
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <024c01ca6963$da00e150$8e02a3f0$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>"Actually, it's fairly hard to get the cost per mile of your EV below that
of an equivalent ICE. I can do it, but I'm a cheapskate and have lots of
>experience at it. :-) I'll bet most EV owners wind up paying more per
mile."

My feeling is this....

It all comes down to "opportunity costs"

If I needed a commuter car because I wanted to get away from my two large
vehicles in order to cut down on my commuting expense I have two choices:

1) buy a New or Used EconoBox that gets better mileage
2) Get a donor car and create an EV yourself or have a conversion shop do it
for you.

If you budget $15,000 for your new or used econobox or a conversion my
feeling is over a 5 to 7 year period you save money with the EV.

Lets say you drive 30 miles or less each way to work and can charge at your
office for a 60 mile round trip.  I calculate that if you had a 22 mpg rated
ICE that you bought you would be much better off with the EV instead.  At
$2.40 per gallon for gas in NJ (it's a little higher now) you would use 2.7
gallons per day thus your gas cost per day would be $6.55.  To charge up for
that mileage at $0.03 per mile electricity would cost you $1.80 per day.  So
weekly you would spend $32.73 with the gas car back and forth to work and
$9.00 a week charging for the same distance.  Every month that is $141.82
for the luxury of buying gas, vs. $39 a month worth of electricity.  Every
year, you Spend $1,701 on Gas, and $468 on Electricity.  In Five years, you
would save $6165.  If you needed to buy another lead acid pack, at year five
I doubt they would cost you that much.  Based on my Trojan Price chart, 24 6
volt T145s at retail are around $218.95 each.  So a new pack cost would be
$5254.80.. Thus, the EV still wins by $910!!!  And I didn't factor in the
lack of maintenance the EV has over the ICE nor the recent tax incentives
for owning one.  All in all the EV still wins.  The pricing would be the
same for the Better Place based on their model.  While I want to see EVs and
if people want to use the Better Place system fantastic.  Less foreign oil
and more of our capital staying in the USA.  I just don't want to pay that
way but I welcome them and Coulomb and everyone else moving us closer to
having electric cars on our nations roads.


Sincerely;

Douglas A. Stansfield
President
www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
973-875-6276 (office)
973-670-9208 (cell)
973-440-1619 (fax)

WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS






-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
Of Lee Hart
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 3:25 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
Businessmodel discussion...

Douglas A. Stansfield wrote:
> I don't want to pay my Gas car per mile rate to drive my EV....  $0.15 per
> mile versus $0.02 per mile.

What are you paying per mile for batteries (purchase price divided by
total number of miles you get on the pack)? For me, battery cost exceeds
electricity cost per mile.

> With Net metering and V2G the cost to charge
> could drop significantly.  I had a speaker at my NJ Electric Auto
> Association meeting on Tuesday night that showed a potential "floating"
> electricity rate based on demand and thus the peak demand KWH rate was
$0.12
> (same as my all the time rate now) and the overnight rate was $0.02 per
KWH.

How can they make this work? The present rate should be about the
average of the peak and off-peak rates. With my utility, going to time
of use billing more than doubles the rate during peaks, but only reduces
it moderately for off peak. To come out cheaper overall, I'd have to use
almost all my power off-peak!

> As I understand the Better Place Model they take the ICE cost per mile and
> charge you the same amount for the EV.  That profit margin is why the
> company raised a record amount of first round venture funding.....

I suspect that most people see this as a positive thing. They worry that
battery life will be short and electricity cost will be high; thus, the
Better Place model gives them an "insurance policy" that they won't pay
more for their EV than for their ICE.

Actually, it's fairly hard to get the cost per mile of your EV below
that of an equivalent ICE. I can do it, but I'm a cheapskate and have
lots of experience at it. :-) I'll bet most EV owners wind up paying
more per mile.
--
Lee A. Hart  | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N  | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

_______________________________________________
General support: http://evdl.org/help/
Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:42:12 -0500
From: "Douglas A. Stansfield" <Doug@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
	 Businessmodel discussion...
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <025301ca6969$893a43a0$9baecae0$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Here is a link to a chart I have on my website....based on the thread
below....

http://transatlanticelectricconversions.com/Inventory.html


Sincerely;

Douglas A. Stansfield
President
www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
973-875-6276 (office)
973-670-9208 (cell)
973-440-1619 (fax)

WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS





-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
Of Douglas A. Stansfield
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 5:02 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
Businessmodel discussion...

>"Actually, it's fairly hard to get the cost per mile of your EV below that
of an equivalent ICE. I can do it, but I'm a cheapskate and have lots of
>experience at it. :-) I'll bet most EV owners wind up paying more per
mile."

My feeling is this....

It all comes down to "opportunity costs"

If I needed a commuter car because I wanted to get away from my two large
vehicles in order to cut down on my commuting expense I have two choices:

1) buy a New or Used EconoBox that gets better mileage
2) Get a donor car and create an EV yourself or have a conversion shop do it
for you.

If you budget $15,000 for your new or used econobox or a conversion my
feeling is over a 5 to 7 year period you save money with the EV.

Lets say you drive 30 miles or less each way to work and can charge at your
office for a 60 mile round trip.  I calculate that if you had a 22 mpg rated
ICE that you bought you would be much better off with the EV instead.  At
$2.40 per gallon for gas in NJ (it's a little higher now) you would use 2.7
gallons per day thus your gas cost per day would be $6.55.  To charge up for
that mileage at $0.03 per mile electricity would cost you $1.80 per day.  So
weekly you would spend $32.73 with the gas car back and forth to work and
$9.00 a week charging for the same distance.  Every month that is $141.82
for the luxury of buying gas, vs. $39 a month worth of electricity.  Every
year, you Spend $1,701 on Gas, and $468 on Electricity.  In Five years, you
would save $6165.  If you needed to buy another lead acid pack, at year five
I doubt they would cost you that much.  Based on my Trojan Price chart, 24 6
volt T145s at retail are around $218.95 each.  So a new pack cost would be
$5254.80.. Thus, the EV still wins by $910!!!  And I didn't factor in the
lack of maintenance the EV has over the ICE nor the recent tax incentives
for owning one.  All in all the EV still wins.  The pricing would be the
same for the Better Place based on their model.  While I want to see EVs and
if people want to use the Better Place system fantastic.  Less foreign oil
and more of our capital staying in the USA.  I just don't want to pay that
way but I welcome them and Coulomb and everyone else moving us closer to
having electric cars on our nations roads.


Sincerely;

Douglas A. Stansfield
President
www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
973-875-6276 (office)
973-670-9208 (cell)
973-440-1619 (fax)

WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS






-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
Of Lee Hart
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 3:25 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
Businessmodel discussion...

Douglas A. Stansfield wrote:
> I don't want to pay my Gas car per mile rate to drive my EV....  $0.15 per
> mile versus $0.02 per mile.

What are you paying per mile for batteries (purchase price divided by
total number of miles you get on the pack)? For me, battery cost exceeds
electricity cost per mile.

> With Net metering and V2G the cost to charge
> could drop significantly.  I had a speaker at my NJ Electric Auto
> Association meeting on Tuesday night that showed a potential "floating"
> electricity rate based on demand and thus the peak demand KWH rate was
$0.12
> (same as my all the time rate now) and the overnight rate was $0.02 per
KWH.

How can they make this work? The present rate should be about the
average of the peak and off-peak rates. With my utility, going to time
of use billing more than doubles the rate during peaks, but only reduces
it moderately for off peak. To come out cheaper overall, I'd have to use
almost all my power off-peak!

> As I understand the Better Place Model they take the ICE cost per mile and
> charge you the same amount for the EV.  That profit margin is why the
> company raised a record amount of first round venture funding.....

I suspect that most people see this as a positive thing. They worry that
battery life will be short and electricity cost will be high; thus, the
Better Place model gives them an "insurance policy" that they won't pay
more for their EV than for their ICE.

Actually, it's fairly hard to get the cost per mile of your EV below
that of an equivalent ICE. I can do it, but I'm a cheapskate and have
lots of experience at it. :-) I'll bet most EV owners wind up paying
more per mile.
--
Lee A. Hart  | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N  | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

_______________________________________________
General support: http://evdl.org/help/
Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
General support: http://evdl.org/help/
Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 18:31:24 -0500
From: Dave Davidson <davetex99@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
	 Businessmodel discussion...
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <36b5c54c0911191531n639a09d2h2de55a66fa2f6c78@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Regardless, leasing will cost more than buying, otherwise the leasing
company will quickly go out of business. Some companies can get a tax
benefit by leasing but not individuals. Your lease payments must cover
the cost of whatever you're leasing plus the operating costs of the
leasing company plus profit for the leasing company. If the initial
battery packs do have an unexpectedly short life, the loss will have
to be made up on the lease price of subsequent packs or the leasing
company will cease to exist.

I also expect that the bms will be included in the pack, so when you
turn in the pack, you also turn in the bms, making it harder to make
up your own pack. If I own the pack, I can open it up and replace the
cells when necessary keeping the bms and interface to the rest of the
car. Since the Leaf uses large format cells, rebuilding the pack with
fresh cells should not be difficult providing you have all the
electronics that go with it.

The only way I would even consider a lease is if it has a purchase
option at the end of the lease.

Dave

On 11/19/09, Douglas A. Stansfield <Doug@...> wrote:
>>"Actually, it's fairly hard to get the cost per mile of your EV below that
> of an equivalent ICE. I can do it, but I'm a cheapskate and have lots of
>>experience at it. :-) I'll bet most EV owners wind up paying more per
> mile."
>
> My feeling is this....
>
> It all comes down to "opportunity costs"
>
> If I needed a commuter car because I wanted to get away from my two large
> vehicles in order to cut down on my commuting expense I have two choices:
>
> 1) buy a New or Used EconoBox that gets better mileage
> 2) Get a donor car and create an EV yourself or have a conversion shop do it
> for you.
>
> If you budget $15,000 for your new or used econobox or a conversion my
> feeling is over a 5 to 7 year period you save money with the EV.
>
> Lets say you drive 30 miles or less each way to work and can charge at your
> office for a 60 mile round trip.  I calculate that if you had a 22 mpg rated
> ICE that you bought you would be much better off with the EV instead.  At
> $2.40 per gallon for gas in NJ (it's a little higher now) you would use 2.7
> gallons per day thus your gas cost per day would be $6.55.  To charge up for
> that mileage at $0.03 per mile electricity would cost you $1.80 per day.  So
> weekly you would spend $32.73 with the gas car back and forth to work and
> $9.00 a week charging for the same distance.  Every month that is $141.82
> for the luxury of buying gas, vs. $39 a month worth of electricity.  Every
> year, you Spend $1,701 on Gas, and $468 on Electricity.  In Five years, you
> would save $6165.  If you needed to buy another lead acid pack, at year five
> I doubt they would cost you that much.  Based on my Trojan Price chart, 24 6
> volt T145s at retail are around $218.95 each.  So a new pack cost would be
> $5254.80.. Thus, the EV still wins by $910!!!  And I didn't factor in the
> lack of maintenance the EV has over the ICE nor the recent tax incentives
> for owning one.  All in all the EV still wins.  The pricing would be the
> same for the Better Place based on their model.  While I want to see EVs and
> if people want to use the Better Place system fantastic.  Less foreign oil
> and more of our capital staying in the USA.  I just don't want to pay that
> way but I welcome them and Coulomb and everyone else moving us closer to
> having electric cars on our nations roads.
>
>
> Sincerely;
>
> Douglas A. Stansfield
> President
> www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
> 973-875-6276 (office)
> 973-670-9208 (cell)
> 973-440-1619 (fax)
>
> WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
> And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
> Of Lee Hart
> Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 3:25 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
> Businessmodel discussion...
>
> Douglas A. Stansfield wrote:
>> I don't want to pay my Gas car per mile rate to drive my EV....  $0.15 per
>> mile versus $0.02 per mile.
>
> What are you paying per mile for batteries (purchase price divided by
> total number of miles you get on the pack)? For me, battery cost exceeds
> electricity cost per mile.
>
>> With Net metering and V2G the cost to charge
>> could drop significantly.  I had a speaker at my NJ Electric Auto
>> Association meeting on Tuesday night that showed a potential "floating"
>> electricity rate based on demand and thus the peak demand KWH rate was
> $0.12
>> (same as my all the time rate now) and the overnight rate was $0.02 per
> KWH.
>
> How can they make this work? The present rate should be about the
> average of the peak and off-peak rates. With my utility, going to time
> of use billing more than doubles the rate during peaks, but only reduces
> it moderately for off peak. To come out cheaper overall, I'd have to use
> almost all my power off-peak!
>
>> As I understand the Better Place Model they take the ICE cost per mile and
>> charge you the same amount for the EV.  That profit margin is why the
>> company raised a record amount of first round venture funding.....
>
> I suspect that most people see this as a positive thing. They worry that
> battery life will be short and electricity cost will be high; thus, the
> Better Place model gives them an "insurance policy" that they won't pay
> more for their EV than for their ICE.
>
> Actually, it's fairly hard to get the cost per mile of your EV below
> that of an equivalent ICE. I can do it, but I'm a cheapskate and have
> lots of experience at it. :-) I'll bet most EV owners wind up paying
> more per mile.
> --
> Lee A. Hart  | Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave N  | Forget the perfect offering
> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>

--
Sent from my mobile device



------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 16:44:56 -0800 (PST)
From: Jack Murray <jack@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Insightless MPG
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <84885.72038.qm@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

The Geo Metro XP with a 1.0L engine can get 50mpg,
and yes it has pretty whimpy acceleration.

--- On Thu, 11/19/09, Mark Hanson <marke.hanson@...> wrote:

> From: Mark Hanson <marke.hanson@...>
> Subject: [EVDL] Insightless MPG
> To: ev@...
> Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 10:22 AM
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> Yesterday there was a NiMh battery Insight email but can't
> remember who but a guy at the EV show here asked me what the
> MPG would be on my 70 mpg Insight if I removed all the
> hybrid stuff & dropped a couple hundred pounds what
> would the MPG be?.? Does enyone know, has it been
> done?? (Probably whimpy acceleration though.)
>
>
>
> (But the DC converter that supplies the access 14V wouldn't
> work I don't think.)
>
>
>
> I'm thinking about going plug-in LiFePO4 though.
>
>
>
> have a renewable energy day,
>
> Mark
>  ???
> ????????
> ?????? ???
> ?
> _________________________________________________________________
> Bing brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one
> place.
>
http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MFESRP&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFES\
RP_Local_MapsMenu_Resturants_1x1
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20091119/58be2656/attachmen\
t.html
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>



------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 20:18:42 -0500
From: "David Roden" <evpost@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] GEM, Suzuki, misc
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B05A822.22653.C414B5@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

On 19 Nov 2009 at 14:37, Lee Hart wrote:

> The repulsion motor is an old (now obsolete) type of motor. See
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repulsion_motor.

Oops, sorry, I apparently used the wrong term.  I should have looked it up
to make sure.

I was thinking of the "magnetic motor" or "magnet motor," claimed by its
proponents to operate on a fraction of the energy required by other motors
(or even to even produce more energy than it consumes), through some arcane
arrangement of permanent magnets.

There's no shortage of people who say they've built and can demonstrate
these devices.  Youtube has literally thousands of video clips demonstrating
them and showing how to build them.  You can see and read about them there
and on the other forums and websites which are partly or fully dedicated to
them, such as electrifyingtimes.com and overunity.com.

None of these devices exists in a form that a hobbyist can bolt into a
conversion. We stand to gain a whole lot more discussing practical, real
world ways to store more energy in our EVs (better batteries), and how to
improve rolling resistance, drivetrain friction, aerodynamics, and vehicle
weight.

Because of that and the fact that they generate far more acrimony than
electricity, we agreed years ago not to discuss overunity and free energy
devices on the EVDL.

So, again, my apologies for using the wrong term.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 20:50:38 -0500
From: Martin K <martin.klingensmith@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] GEM, Suzuki, misc
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <d8f29a7d0911191750v26924de4m448aa7bed8b0f50c@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 3:37 PM, Lee Hart <leeahart@...> wrote:

> The repulsion motor is an old (now obsolete) type of motor. See
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repulsion_motor.
>
> They run on AC, but have a commutator and brushes, and look rather like
> a DC motor. Their main virtue was that they had a wide speed range and
> high starting torque with low current draw, like a series DC motor. In
> fact, they were used as traction motors in streetcars and trains that
> had overhead wires or a third rail to bring AC to the vehicle.
> --
> Lee A. Hart ? ? ? ? ? ? | Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave N ? ? ? ? ? | Forget the perfect offering
> Sartell MN 56377 ? ? ? ?| There is a crack in everything
> leeahart earthlink.net ?| That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>

I don't see any information describing why they are considered arcane
and obsolete now. Do you have more information on them?

--
Martin K.



------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 19:48:14 -0800
From: "joe" <joe@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] GEM, Suzuki, misc
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <3D39848A539649A28CF29607D27AF0AD@Sales>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8";
	 reply-type=original

They are arcane and obsolete because they are not as efficient as modern
electric motors. I have worked on a few of them, mostly in water pump
applications.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: joe@...

----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin K" <martin.klingensmith@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 5:50 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] GEM, Suzuki, misc


> On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 3:37 PM, Lee Hart <leeahart@...> wrote:
>
>> The repulsion motor is an old (now obsolete) type of motor. See
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repulsion_motor.
>>
>> They run on AC, but have a commutator and brushes, and look rather like
>> a DC motor. Their main virtue was that they had a wide speed range and
>> high starting torque with low current draw, like a series DC motor. In
>> fact, they were used as traction motors in streetcars and trains that
>> had overhead wires or a third rail to bring AC to the vehicle.
>> --
>> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
>> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
>> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
>> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>>
>
> I don't see any information describing why they are considered arcane
> and obsolete now. Do you have more information on them?
>
> --
> Martin K.
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>



------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 01:12:21 -0600
From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] GEM, Suzuki, misc
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B064155.2050608@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

Martin K wrote:
> I don't see any information describing why they are considered arcane
> and obsolete now. Do you have more information on them?

The commutator and brushes added cost, so the repulsion motor was more
expensive than a normal induction motor. Once they figured out ways to
make an induction motor with more starting torque and lower starting
current, there was no longer much need for the repulsion motor.

--
Lee A. Hart  | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N  | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen



------------------------------

Message: 16
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 09:51:58 +0000
From: Evan Tuer <evan.tuer@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Insightless MPG
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <cc7432af0911200151t19446f1cv595aa6c10e09460a@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 7:48 PM, EVDL Administrator <evpost@...> wrote:
> On 19 Nov 2009 at 13:22, Mark Hanson wrote:
>
>> a guy at the EV show here asked me what the MPG would be on my 70 mpg
>> Insight if I removed all the hybrid stuff & dropped a couple hundred
>> pounds what would the MPG be?. ?Does enyone know, has it been done?
>> (Probably whimpy acceleration though.)
>
> Just ask anyone whose IMA battery has failed. ?Apparently there are quite a
> few. ?;-)
>
> The IMA on a Honda "hybrid" is an electric supercharger. ?Without it (if the
> computer even lets the car run) acceleration will be poor. ?There will also
> be more vibration,.as the IMA was used to level out the lumpiness of the 3-
> cylinder engine. ?(Clever.)

This is right (although I only noticed vibration at idle).  I've tried
it with the IMA switched off.   You lose the benefit of stop/start,
and the penalty of accelerating without electric assist (which keeps
the MPG up as well as making it faster) does drag the average down.
I don't know what benefit removing the weight of the batteries etc,
would make, but I doubt it would be better overall in mixed driving,
honestly.

Gary Granke has done a pure-EV conversion (with de-walt batteries!)
http://www.evalbum.com/461
And Peter Perkins in the UK is making a PHEV adaptation using a bigger
battery (TS cells I think).

Personally I think it's a fine car for long range driving as standard,
and I have an EV for commuting :)



------------------------------

Message: 17
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 22:59:21 +1300
From: chris <chris@...>
Subject: [EVDL]  Vectrix - Decisions decisions - help needed
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <1258711161.18475.41.camel@thinkpad>
Content-Type: text/plain

As you guys may know - vectrix have gone fairly belly-up although they
have offers of purchasers and hesketh motorcycles have bought the rights
to resell under the name of Hesketh in the uk.

Now... there are numerous reports of problems with these motorbikes in
from various people around the world including weak cells in the battery
string to main fuses blowing (this fuse is completely inaccessible
without about 30-45 mins of dismantling) and issues such as less than
half of the battery range quoted (see weak cells above) along with
batteries being replaced under warranty in less than 11,000 miles.

Having said all that.... unfortunately a year ago i spent 5 days in the
company of a 'loan' vectrix and fell in love with the way it rode (even
though it was slower than the RF900 suzuki i was used to.) loved the
'geek'ness of it and just the fun of riding past petrol stations - the
silence etc...hell i dont need to tell you lot what its like.

Anyhow back then the price of a vectrix was $18,000 NZD (new zealand
dollar). Today I have the opportunity to buy a NEW vectrix for
approximately $8000 - $8500 (Depending on fluctuations of currency etc)

Now bearing in mind although this is new - there is NO warranty - no
comeback if it ceases to function after day 1 - the batterypack is NIMH
and alot of its systems are not open source.

Of course - I still want it - but i still worry - im not loaded with
money and like anything there are a few horror stories out there about
these bikes and their way of unceremoniously failing without warning
that and the range being somewhat closer to 40km than 100km (which was
the original manu claims - to be honest i only got about 55km on a new
bike anyhow)


So.... what do i do... wait til theres something newer and warranted....
buy it because its actually quite well made - its a solid feeling real
bike capable of around town speed perfectly.

Or what..... agggggghhhhhh

I guess what really is the problem is fear

Thoughts people ?

Cheers

Chris

Auckland



------------------------------

Message: 18
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 11:25:42 +0000
From: Evan Tuer <evan.tuer@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] TIME Article on EV's
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <cc7432af0911200325j763e703bv890f24aceb2228c6@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 8:30 PM, Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...> wrote:

> ?#4, Fast charging is a marketing myth, a five minute recharge would
> require a direct line to Niagra Falls or your ?regional nuclear plant.

It's never a good idea to exaggerate and say things can never be done
if they are technically feasible, even if you think it's not
worthwhile for some reason.

For example: a 20kWh battery of 400V.  That's good for 75 miles of
highway driving.
Recharging 80% within 5 minutes would require:

(20000 * .8) / 400 = 40A for 1 hour or 480A for 5 minutes, call that 200kW.

Larger commercial premises have supplies which can fulfill that as standard.

Connectors and cables which can handle this current and voltage for 5
minutes are nothing special either.

You'd need to use the best batteries currently available to accept a
10C charge rate, but it's far from impossible.



------------------------------

Message: 19
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 01:27:29 +1300
From: chris <chris@...>
Subject: [EVDL] Vectrix - Decisions decisions - help needed
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <1258720049.18475.44.camel@thinkpad>
Content-Type: text/plain


As you guys may know - vectrix have gone fairly belly-up although they
have offers of purchasers and hesketh motorcycles have bought the rights
to resell under the name of Hesketh in the uk.

Now... there are numerous reports of problems with these motorbikes in
from various people around the world including weak cells in the battery
string to main fuses blowing (this fuse is completely inaccessible
without about 30-45 mins of dismantling) and issues such as less than
half of the battery range quoted (see weak cells above) along with
batteries being replaced under warranty in less than 11,000 miles.

Having said all that.... unfortunately a year ago i spent 5 days in the
company of a 'loan' vectrix and fell in love with the way it rode (even
though it was slower than the RF900 suzuki i was used to.) loved the
'geek'ness of it and just the fun of riding past petrol stations - the
silence etc...hell i dont need to tell you lot what its like.

Anyhow back then the price of a vectrix was $18,000 NZD (new zealand
dollar). Today I have the opportunity to buy a NEW vectrix for
approximately $8000 - $8500 (Depending on fluctuations of currency etc)

Now bearing in mind although this is new - there is NO warranty - no
comeback if it ceases to function after day 1 - the batterypack is NIMH
and alot of its systems are not open source.

Of course - I still want it - but i still worry - im not loaded with
money and like anything there are a few horror stories out there about
these bikes and their way of unceremoniously failing without warning
that and the range being somewhat closer to 40km than 100km (which was
the original manu claims - to be honest i only got about 55km on a new
bike anyhow)


So.... what do i do... wait til theres something newer and warranted....
buy it because its actually quite well made - its a solid feeling real
bike capable of around town speed perfectly.

Or what..... agggggghhhhhh

I guess what really is the problem is fear

Thoughts people ?

Cheers

Chris

Auckland

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------------------------------

Message: 20
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:23:06 -0700
From: "Rush" <Rush@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Insightless MPG
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <E42813BAC5C4480287A5B0C0FB237700@meadow>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original

> Yesterday there was a NiMh battery Insight email but can't remember who
> but a guy at the EV show here asked me what the MPG would be on my 70 mpg
> Insight if I removed all the hybrid stuff & dropped a couple hundred
> pounds what would the MPG be?.  Does enyone know, has it been done?
> (Probably whimpy acceleration though.)

That was probably me...

The Insight cannot run without the battery pack. Instead of an alternator,
the battery pack powers a DC/DC converter that charges the 12 car system
battery (that runs the horn, the lights, the sparkplugs etc). But there is a
way to run the car and not use the IMA motor assist, you can unplug one of
the wiring harness connectors to the BCM so that the motor assist does not
work. It will regen to charge the pack to charge the 12 v battery when
needed. Although I would not do this for any long period of time. I did it
for a couple days since I was waiting for a battery pack fan replacement. My
mileage went up from 60 mpg to about 68 mpg, since the IMA was not working
so often to charge the battery pack. Acceleration was terrible.

Let me add that I am talking about the 1st gen Insight, I'm not sure about
the 2nd gen.

But there are a couple who have taken the hybrid system out and installed an
all EV system. Otmar is one of them
http://www.cafeelectric.com/Insight/Conversion/InsightTemp.html,
and Gary is another http://ev.whitecape.org/

Rush
Tucson AZ
www.TEVA2.com


>




------------------------------

Message: 21
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 06:06:10 -0800 (PST)
From: tomw <tomofreno2000@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OK you-all create an alternative to the car
	 computer
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <1258725970724-624599.post@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


I pretty much followed this on my 2001 Swift.  I cut off all the wires from
the ECU in the engine compartment except the ignition and oil sensor, which
I use for 12V through the ignition and an "on" light respectively. I
connected the "check engine" light in series with a buzzer to an LVC signal
for low cell voltage (the shop manual showed the position of this wire on
one of the connectors to the ECU, and its color code).  The speedometer is
totally mechanical - cable from the transmission.  I removed the ECU after
studying the shop manual to determine it didn't connect to anything I
needed, including airbags.  The shop manual is invaluable for understanding
the electrical systems of the vehicle.  I think there is quite a bit of
variation on these things depending on year/make/model.  If the box is to be
universal it will of course have to meet worst case - models that have most
functions interfaced with the ECU.  Low cost cars like the Swift likely are
simpler to reduce cost.  I would think "luxury" models would be a nightmare
electrically.

Tom


Dennis Miles-2 wrote:
>
> On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 12:01 PM, Martin K
> <martin.klingensmith@...>wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 6:49 PM, Peter C. Thompson
>> <pthompso@...> wrote:
>> > Hi Dennis,
>> >
>> > An interesting idea.  One thing to keep in mind is how all of these
>> > boxes will talk together - CAN-bus (ISO 11898) has been standardized in
>> > cars in the US since 1996, and in Europe since 2001 (2004 for diesel).
>> >
>> > It's a very good bet that the ECU (engine computer) is also using that
>> > CAN-bus.  So it will be important to discover what other functions the
>> > ECU was covering.  For example, does the airbag require the ECU to send
>> > "I'm operating" before turning itself on?  How does it send the tach
>> > info?  Does it interpret the gas level?  Lots of stupid stuff to figure
>> > out, sorry to say.
>>
>> I think the safety features are controlled by a separate computer, one
>> that just does safety.
>> I have no idea if you can replace the ECU and other computers without
>> affecting safety.
>>
>> --
>> Martin K.
>>
>> =====================Hi, Martin ================================
>>
> I was recently "Enlightened" by the "Grand Old Man" of EV Conversions, We
> all know and respect him, " Wayne, of "Electric Blue."
>
>  I have been "Brought up to Speed" on what I call, "KISEVC" (that is: Keep
> It Simple EV Converters!) A philosophy similar to "KISS" I have tried to
> practice all my life. (Keep It Simple Stupid!)
>
> Here it is "From the Horses Mouth!" :
>
>  #1. The ABS has its own "Box" so leave it alone.
>
>  #2. The Airbag System is just the impact sensor and a relay, and the
> Pyrotechnic device in           the bag, so leave all that alone too.
>
>  #3. When removing the ICE any wires going to a ECU box you can cut right
> off, leave the box      as it may control the speedometer (Don't cut the
> wire going to the speed sensor or the speedometer won't work!) reconnect
> ground wires to a point near the ECU Box.
>
> .#4. Cut the wire to the "Check Motor" light and use it for some other
> function.
>
> If you have a nice big analog tachometer in the dash, convert it to a
> battery pack ammeter or voltmeter or some other function, of your choice.
> The same with any other dials, fuel, oil pressure, water temperature, etc.
>
> Thanks for the Education, Wayne !
>
> Regards to you-all,
>
>     Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
> Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
> Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
>        Phone (863) 289 - 0690
> "We provide Mentoring, Small Group Instruction, and Hands-On training
>  for the EV Technicians: Building, Converting, Repairing, and Servicing
> the Electric Vehicles of Today, and the Future."
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--
View this message in context:
http://n4.nabble.com/OK-you-all-create-an-alternative-to-the-car-computer-tp6236\
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Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.



------------------------------

Message: 22
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 10:00:31 -0500
From: Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] TIME Article on EV's
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <2b4886ce0911200700g7f1445bbn9c738f89247708c1@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 6:25 AM, Evan Tuer <evan.tuer@...> wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 8:30 PM, Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...>
> wrote:
>
> >  #4, Fast charging is a marketing myth, a five minute recharge would
> > require a direct line to Niagra Falls or your  regional nuclear plant.
>
> It's never a good idea to exaggerate and say things can never be done
> if they are technically feasible, even if you think it's not
> worthwhile for some reason.
>
> For example: a 20kWh battery of 400V.  That's good for 75 miles of
> highway driving.
> Recharging 80% within 5 minutes would require:
>
> (20000 * .8) / 400 = 40A for 1 hour or 480A for 5 minutes, call that 200kW.
>
> Larger commercial premises have supplies which can fulfill that as
> standard.
>
> Connectors and cables which can handle this current and voltage for 5
> minutes are nothing special either.
>
> You'd need to use the best batteries currently available to accept a
> 10C charge rate, but it's far from impossible.
>
> ===========My math assumptions were a little different than yours========
>

I'm driving 200 miles ( Proven reasonable range by Tesla Drivers.) then
recharging in five minutes to ioo% full requires 53 KWh and if our charger
is 90 % efficient a five minute charge from a 220 AC V. source requires 3200
Amperes. Or enough to supply a housing development of 32 to 50 homes...And
the convenience store next to the Interstate where I sometimes buy Gasoline
has 16 pumps all capable of full flow at the same time. An equavilent EV
recharger would require the supply suitable of a small town with 800 homes.
Also the plug in cable would be 32 strands of 2/0 cable or an alternative.
I admit it just takes a medium size substation and not Niagra Falls full
output. But charging at home in six hours takes only 44 A. so it could be
handled with a 50 A. rated "Range Outlet" or charging in 12 hours takes 22
A. so that works with a 30 A. "Dryer Outlet."
You are correct, it is not "Impossible," however I feel it is far from
likely.  (:-))

Regards,
     Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
        Phone (863) 289 - 0690
"We provide Mentoring, Small Group Instruction, and Hands-On training
for the EV Technicians: Building, Converting, Repairing, and Servicing
  the Electric Vehicles of Today, and the Future."
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Message: 23
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 07:04:12 -0800
From: Jeff Shanab <jshanab@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Insightless MPG
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <4B06AFEC.3070704@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I kinda tested this. And I think there is a breaker you can flip to
simulate this.

I went to test drive one when they first came out. (I didn't buy for 2
reasons. Silver and black and *cough* automatic)

The dealer had let it sit and the pack was dead, even the backup starter
battery was to dead to start the ICE.
They wheeled over their jump starter box and jumped it and we went for a
drive.
In the first mile or so I felt the roughness but it went away as soon as
the IMA light went off and the first bar on the charge meter came on
The acceleration was so disappointing that I almost stopped the test
drive at that point, it felt unsafely slow. but I had to go around the
big city block anyway to get back.
When I got to the 2nd mile and had 2 bars on the pack I had come to my
second stop. It charged as I drove. Still don't know if that is purly
from the vibration dampening or if they have some charging programmed
in. I pulled away from that second stop sign with half the peddle as the
first and was satisfied. Got to the third stop sign and I had full pack
voltage and the motor shut off. I was informed that It was fully charged
I should "floor it".  Tires chirped and I was impressed with the
acceleration. THe little car was quick!

> On 19 Nov 2009 at 13:22, Mark Hanson wrote:
>
>
>> > a guy at the EV show here asked me what the MPG would be on my 70 mpg
>> > Insight if I removed all the hybrid stuff & dropped a couple hundred
>> > pounds what would the MPG be?.  Does enyone know, has it been done?
>> > (Probably whimpy acceleration though.)
>>
>
> Just ask anyone whose IMA battery has failed.  Apparently there are quite a
> few.   ;-)
>
> The IMA on a Honda "hybrid" is an electric supercharger.  Without it (if the
> computer even lets the car run) acceleration will be poor.  There will also
> be more vibration,.as the IMA was used to level out the lumpiness of the 3-
> cylinder engine.  (Clever.)
>
> MPG discussions are off topic on the EVDL, but converting a production
> "hybrid" to plug in or pure battery is not.  I think an Insight should make
> a fine BEV, but I suspect that space and weight capacity will pretty much
> mandate lithium batteries.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" an "etpost" addresses will not
> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
>
>



------------------------------

Message: 24
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 11:03:58 -0500
From: Phil Marino <phil42277@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
	 Businessmodel discussion...
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <660221ca0911200803ic3720f8rcf9a6c6ac730062a@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Douglas

I don't agree with the numbers you used for your calculation:

If you're driving 60 miles a day ( your numbers ), that's 300 miles/week or
about 15000 miles/year.  So, if you replace your pack every 5 years ( again,
your numbers) you would have to get 75000 miles out of a lead acid pack.
  Except for very unusual cases, isn't 10,000 (or 20,000 maximum) miles more
common?

If you assume 20K miles per pack, the EV costs a whole lot more.  As others
have said before, EV converters don't do it to save money.

Phil Marino



On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 5:01 PM, Douglas A. Stansfield <
Doug@...> wrote:

> >"Actually, it's fairly hard to get the cost per mile of your EV below that
> of an equivalent ICE. I can do it, but I'm a cheapskate and have lots of
> >experience at it. :-) I'll bet most EV owners wind up paying more per
> mile."
>
> My feeling is this....
>
> It all comes down to "opportunity costs"
>
> If I needed a commuter car because I wanted to get away from my two large
> vehicles in order to cut down on my commuting expense I have two choices:
>
> 1) buy a New or Used EconoBox that gets better mileage
> 2) Get a donor car and create an EV yourself or have a conversion shop do
> it
> for you.
>
> If you budget $15,000 for your new or used econobox or a conversion my
> feeling is over a 5 to 7 year period you save money with the EV.
>
> Lets say you drive 30 miles or less each way to work and can charge at your
> office for a 60 mile round trip.  I calculate that if you had a 22 mpg
> rated
> ICE that you bought you would be much better off with the EV instead.  At
> $2.40 per gallon for gas in NJ (it's a little higher now) you would use 2.7
> gallons per day thus your gas cost per day would be $6.55.  To charge up
> for
> that mileage at $0.03 per mile electricity would cost you $1.80 per day.
>  So
> weekly you would spend $32.73 with the gas car back and forth to work and
> $9.00 a week charging for the same distance.  Every month that is $141.82
> for the luxury of buying gas, vs. $39 a month worth of electricity.  Every
> year, you Spend $1,701 on Gas, and $468 on Electricity.  In Five years, you
> would save $6165.  If you needed to buy another lead acid pack, at year
> five
> I doubt they would cost you that much.  Based on my Trojan Price chart, 24
> 6
> volt T145s at retail are around $218.95 each.  So a new pack cost would be
> $5254.80.. Thus, the EV still wins by $910!!!  And I didn't factor in the
> lack of maintenance the EV has over the ICE nor the recent tax incentives
> for owning one.  All in all the EV still wins.  The pricing would be the
> same for the Better Place based on their model.  While I want to see EVs
> and
> if people want to use the Better Place system fantastic.  Less foreign oil
> and more of our capital staying in the USA.  I just don't want to pay that
> way but I welcome them and Coulomb and everyone else moving us closer to
> having electric cars on our nations roads.
>
>
> Sincerely;
>
> Douglas A. Stansfield
> President
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Message: 25
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 11:08:42 -0500
From: Collin Kidder <collink@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] TIME Article on EV's
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <4B06BF0A.5080106@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

On 11/20/2009 10:00 AM, Dennis Miles wrote:
>
>> ===========My math assumptions were a little different than yours========
>>
>>
> I'm driving 200 miles ( Proven reasonable range by Tesla Drivers.) then
> recharging in five minutes to ioo% full requires 53 KWh and if our charger
> is 90 % efficient a five minute charge from a 220 AC V. source requires 3200
> Amperes. Or enough to supply a housing development of 32 to 50 homes...And
> the convenience store next to the Interstate where I sometimes buy Gasoline
> has 16 pumps all capable of full flow at the same time. An equavilent EV
> recharger would require the supply suitable of a small town with 800 homes.
> Also the plug in cable would be 32 strands of 2/0 cable or an alternative.
> I admit it just takes a medium size substation and not Niagra Falls full
> output. But charging at home in six hours takes only 44 A. so it could be
> handled with a 50 A. rated "Range Outlet" or charging in 12 hours takes 22
> A. so that works with a 30 A. "Dryer Outlet."
> You are correct, it is not "Impossible," however I feel it is far from
> likely.  (:-))
>
> Regards,
>      Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
>

Not only that but at 90% efficiency in the charger there is 10% waste.
Some of it might be reactive instead of resistive but let's guess an
easy number and say it's 50/50. So 5% resistive loss at 220V 3200A is
35,200 watts of heat. You'd better have a really good heatsink on that
charger! It's now a furnace. Also, 32 strands of 2/0 is horribly large
and there is no way anyone would want that sort of wiring inside a car
(which it would have to do for the wires to the batteries to take that
sort of current.) I think that, short of super conductors, this will
never be a reality. A future scenario I could see working would be to
have the batteries removable. Then the super quick charger and all it's
bulk could be located outside the car. It doesn't matter if an external
charger which is made for the heat gets 35,200 watts of heating.



------------------------------

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End of EV Digest, Vol 28, Issue 29
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Today's Topics:

    1. Re: Optimum A123 Racing Pack (Morgan LaMoore)
    2. Re: Optimum A123 Racing Pack (Roger Heuckeroth)
    3. Charging Voltages?? (Bob Rice)
    4. ev computers?? (Electric Blue auto convertions)
    5. Re: Lithium Batteries... (James R. Parish)
    6. Re: GEM, Suzuki, misc (gary)
    7. Re: ev computers?? (Bob Rice)
    8. Re: Slightly OT: Rust prevention was Re: Start up a RENTYOUR
       PACK OF BATTERIES store (Christopher Zach)
    9. Re: OK you-all create an alternative to the car computer
       (Lee Hart)
   10. Re: Can bus dash display (Lee Hart)
   11. Business Contest (Joseph Bonaparte)
   12. Re: Charging Voltages?? (Alan Fuller)
   13. Re: OK you-all create an alternative to the car computer
       (Lawrence Rhodes)
   14. Re: Can bus dash display (Peter Gabrielsson)
   15. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place - Businessmodel
       discussion... (Lee Hart)
   16. Re: OK you-all create an alternative to the car computer
       (Martin K)
   17. Re: Can bus dash display (Collin Kidder)
   18. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place - Businessmodel
       discussion... (Bob Rice)
   19. Re: Business Contest (Lock Hughes)
   20. Re: ev computers?? (Phil Marino)
   21. Re: OK you-all create an alternative to the car computer
       (Dennis Miles)
   22. Insightless MPG (Mark Hanson)
   23. Re: Business Contest (Dennis Miles)
   24. TIME Article on EV's (Steven Lough)
   25. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place - Businessmodel
       discussion... (Douglas A. Stansfield)
   26. Re: Can bus dash display (Jukka J?rvinen)
   27. Re: Slightly OT: Rust prevention was Re: Start up a RENT YOUR
       PACK OF BATTERIES store (EVDL Administrator)
   28. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place - Businessmodel
       discussion... (EVDL Administrator)
   29. Re: GEM, Suzuki, misc (EVDL Administrator)
   30. Re: Business Contest (EVDL Administrator)
   31. Re: Insightless MPG (EVDL Administrator)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 08:37:25 -0600
From: Morgan LaMoore <morganl@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Optimum A123 Racing Pack
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <4230c7190911190637u3fcc15b8r41bed3fc0e2196d1@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Roger's numbers gave him a 218V nominal pack of 34.5Ah that could do
170V 1000A with fairly little battery sag.

Bill's numbers gave a 320V nominal pack of 18.5Ah that could do 170V
1000A with lots of battery sag.

Roger's described pack needs 1020 cells, while Bill's described pack
needs 800 cells. Both give the same final output power, but Roger's
puts less stress on the cells and provides more range (and cost and
weight).

-Morgan LaMoore

On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 8:18 AM, Ole-Egil Hvitmyren <olegil@...> wrote:
> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
>> I can see how higher voltage would help a Z2K with series /parallel
>> shifting dual motor set up, but if you are running a standard single
>> Warp 11 and are limited by the volts that the motor can take, would
>> you really gain anything by having a 375V pack. ?I know that would put
>> you in a class A3 instead of B.
>>
>
>
> I thought you wanted 170V after accounting for sag at full load. I think
> that's the setup Bill is talking about.
>
> At less than full power the (average) voltage will be limited by the
> duty cycle, at full load (controller constantly open) it will be limited
> by the battery sag.
>
> If you have a 170V setup and load it to max current it'll look mighty
> similar to a 96V setup. Right?
>
> Ole-Egil
> --
> We'll initialise that PCI bridge when we get there.
> http://olegil.amigaos.se/
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 09:40:21 -0500
From: Roger Heuckeroth <rheuckeroth@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Optimum A123 Racing Pack
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <B261C05B-F14B-4A19-B7E6-0B1DEEE74BD7@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes


On Nov 19, 2009, at 9:18 AM, Ole-Egil Hvitmyren wrote:

> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
>> I can see how higher voltage would help a Z2K with series /parallel
>> shifting dual motor set up, but if you are running a standard single
>> Warp 11 and are limited by the volts that the motor can take, would
>> you really gain anything by having a 375V pack.  I know that would
>> put
>> you in a class A3 instead of B.
>>
>
>
> I thought you wanted 170V after accounting for sag at full load. I
> think
> that's the setup Bill is talking about.
>
> At less than full power the (average) voltage will be limited by the
> duty cycle, at full load (controller constantly open) it will be
> limited
> by the battery sag.
>
> If you have a 170V setup and load it to max current it'll look mighty
> similar to a 96V setup. Right?

Yes, you are right, but...    I was figuring voltage sag to about 2.5
V/cell at 70A discharge.  I have not seen any data on how much the
voltage sags on an A123 Cell.

Bill said that each cell will put out 130-135 A at half cell voltage
(3.75/2 = 1.875V)  That would be 8P cells to get 1000A.  However, if
you go for a stiffer pack like 15P68S, then you stay in a lower
voltage class, and have more chance of holding a record.

See:  http://www.nedra.com/class_rules.html



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 10:11:35 -0500
From: "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
Subject: [EVDL] Charging Voltages??
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <CD732DFDD774478C81EAE4D7EC513B1E@adminwlzisp2uc>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original

   Hi EVerybody;

   Part of the "Getting to Know You" senerio, with a 144 volt S-10; We were
wiring stuff the other nite and had the El-Con PFC-3000 charger going, I
know, I've NEVER heard of them ,ether! But this is what were using. I just
for fun, said" Let's check the voltage on the batteries, was shocked, pun
intended at the VOLTage! Was about 190-200! Gees! Do they NORMALLY go that
high when charging? Of course cutting the charging off it sagged down to
165-70 volts fairly quickly, especially when you DRIVE a bit !The batteries
were bubbling like a Coke that has sat awile, VERY gentle bubbling.So I
wasn't seeing a "full Boil" event. The charger CAME set for 144 volt
charging, so I wasn't TOO concerned. But STILL, you 144 volt guyz see THAT
kinda high voltages? How does the  Iota gunna feel, DC to dc, gunna feel,
being stuffed with 200 volts or so?The OTHER choice was to hook up Iota ALL
the time, or just when the key is turned on? Hooking it up so it is only ON
when the truk is being DRIVEN won out. I Have a Sevcon DC to dc in the Jetta
and just leave it ON all the time. I don't  know how Iota's feel about
that?I'm useta my Jetta going to 150 plus volts when charged as I only HAVE
a 150 volt meter.Ours ,on the truk, a 200 volter was Pinned!

     Just sniffing around on charging voltages.On our 4700 lb S-10 wonder!

    Seeya

    Bob



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 09:49:19 -0500 (EST)
From: Electric Blue auto convertions  <electricblue@...>
Subject: [EVDL] ev computers??
To: ev <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <1869500854.7504501258642159258.JavaMail.root@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"



Since I have been doing conversions the only thing I found out about the cars
ICE, ECM is that it drives the speed-0, thats all its used for when you take out
the ICE, the ECM has no more duties to do except the speedo, when Im done with
the conversion i cut all the wireing while the car is running in gear and
keeping an eye on the speed-o? one set of wires at a time.

When im done all i have is the speedo wireing to the ECM and some 12 volt inputs
and grounds ABS uses a seperate ECM.

Air bags dont use a ECM, its on impact switching and relays?? REMEMBER !!!!!??
keep it simple, just make it work,

dont try and reinvent the wheel???? wayne?? ev-blue.com?
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Message: 5
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 10:15:53 -0500
From: "James R. Parish" <jrp@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lithium Batteries...
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <F9DD0ADA71FEF94F9AE0591A75431DB90530AA@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Netgain EMIS Conversion of a 2008 Mazda Tribute AWD.

> >James,
> >
> >         Last I checked  http://www.evcomponents.com  has about the
> >best pricing on cells that size.
> >
> >         Why stop at 72 volts? :-)
> >
> >Bill Dube'
> >
> >At 02:42 PM 11/16/2009, you wrote:
> >>I have been off-list for a while, who has 40Ah and 100Ah Lithium
> >cells
> >>for sale in the US now?  I need a 72V pack. I need pricing too.
> >>
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> >>Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> >>Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> >>Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> >>Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> >Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> >Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> >Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> >Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev





------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 08:34:36 -0600
From: gary <gkrysztopik@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] GEM, Suzuki, misc
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B05577C.2000301@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

There's lot's of GEM talk on the Yahoo NEVs group.

See www.evalbum.com for examples of many conversions - lot's of Suzuki's
but no Grand Vitarra's.  Regardless, you can get an idea of components
used on similar vehicles.  You need to define your cost, range and speed
for people to make good recommendations here.  Find the curb weight and
gross weight of the vehicle too, it's easy to overload it with lead acid
batteries.  Lot's of good links and info on www.eaaev.org.  Do you have
a local chapter?  Maybe visit some conversions in your area to see examples.

Gary Krysztopik
ZWheelz, LLC - www.ZWheelz.com
Alamo City Electric Auto Association - www.aceaa.org
blog - http://voices.mysanantonio.com/drive_electric_san_antonio/
San Antonio, TX



wwwmail@... wrote:
> My first post - just learning - trying to learn - let me know if this is
appropriate for this forum (and host can remove this first line:>:>)
>
>
>
>
>
> 1.  I just rebuilt a GEM - Global Electric Vehicle (they seem to seel them
from Gov Excess so I got a good deal).  It uses 6 heavy duty batteries, is
considered a LSV but am having trouble with toning down the road vibrations
fromt he stiff frame and shocks.  I went to replace 2 rears (it is a dual reas
shock system) with 1967 VW shocks and is much better.  Has anyone done the same
to the fronts?  $21 per shock is better replacing my 12" wheels with new 14"
tires/rims
>
>
> 2.  Has anyone converted a 2000 Suzuki Grand Vitarra from combustion to
battery and if so, the type, quantity, and component motor set-up?  I have one
that is having the engine removed and the carcass scapped so wanted to take this
on as a winter project.
>
>
>
> 3.  Has anyone heard any more truth or folly regarding magnetic repulse
technology to enhance battery use?
>
>
>
> -Anita
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> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>



------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 10:32:41 -0500
From: "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ev computers??
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <659E3C782C46471587B499A6B3848FD9@adminwlzisp2uc>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8";
	 reply-type=original


----- Original Message -----
From: "Electric Blue auto convertions" <electricblue@...>
To: "ev" <ev@...>
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 9:49 AM
Subject: [EVDL] ev computers??


>
>
> Since I have been doing conversions the only thing I found out about the
> cars ICE, ECM is that it drives the speed-0, thats all its used for when
> you take out the ICE, the ECM has no more duties to do except the speedo,
> when Im done with the conversion i cut all the wireing while the car is
> running in gear and keeping an eye on the speed-o one set of wires at a
> time.

    Yeah! Worked for ME, too. I snipped one wire at a time, checking all the
Jettas vital stuff; silly things like lights, signals , tail and Brake
applied lites. Got RID of the computer box and seemingly MILES of loose end
wiring!Jeddi have speedo CABLES, Still! On the S-10, we KEPT that aluminum
box mounted on the trux's right side fenderwell, as the SPEEDO worked when I
grounded THAT! We  found ONE of the loose grounds floating around in the ICE
wiring. Mike can prune as he goes, I got the "Essentials" working! you can
DRIVE the truk and everything WORKS! Especially the Plaintive "Service
Engine" light! Engine is PROBABLY on the way to China, by now?No Traking no?

> When im done all i have is the speedo wireing to the ECM and some 12 volt
> inputs and grounds ABS uses a seperate ECM.

        I GUESS most cars sorta work the same?
>
> Air bags dont use a ECM, its on impact switching and relays REMEMBER !!!!!
> keep it simple, just make it work,
>
> dont try and reinvent the wheel wayne ev-blue.com

       Try NOT to, just turn the one's I got!

        Bob



------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 10:07:23 -0500
From: Christopher Zach <czach@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Slightly OT: Rust prevention was Re: Start up a
	 RENTYOUR PACK OF BATTERIES store
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B055F2B.4010408@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Bob Rice wrote:
>    And VW Rabbits, too! Great car to convert, sturdy, handy aftermarket
> parts, etc. But RUST BUCKETS! The #$%^ windshields leaked in the Drivers
> side in particular, pissing water down behind the dash, attacking the door
> posts, you had to LIFT the door up, to close it! The fuse box, or strip got
> wet, causing endless electrical issues, Oh, same for older Jettas,
> too!When's the L:AST time ya saw a Rabbit in places where there is weather?
> Rumer has it that there are STILL Rabbits, etc,Out West? In that I have a 20
> year old Jetta is no small miricle, It WAS undercoated and musta led a
> charmed life in it's early years?Well for that matter any OLDER Datsuns' The
> White Zombie woulda been mulch 20 YEARS ago, had it been born on the Least
> Coast!Sure miss those simple, computerless cars! Hard around here to find
> basic, simple , clean doner cars.

The key to Rabbits is to understand that the gutters under the window go
to two drains, under the hood, right in front of the door. For some
unknown reason VW put rubber things in the drain holes that would either
get cemented together with organic material or otherwise clogged. Once
that happened water would overflow into the car and make a mess.

My 84 Rabbit did this, I thought the windshield was leaking. 30 seconds
with a garden hose and the problem went away forever. Sad, VW seems to
have a desire to install rust as a factory option (the 914 was the best
example of this).

I miss that GTI. What finally killed it was the fuel pump blowing a line
and pouring gas under the car. Body however was fine (got rid of in 2004)

Chris



------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 09:48:55 -0600
From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OK you-all create an alternative to the car
	 computer
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B0568E7.2010400@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

>> Or CAN we avoid it and simplify the wiring in the EV, for example
>> under hood to the trunk only needs 4 conductors, and 6 to the front
>> lights. Everything else is under the hood or in the dash except
>> Pack wiring.

Dennis Miles wrote:
>> You CAN only simplify the wiring if you plan on doing without the
>> modern conveniences of ABS, airbags, security, and all the other items
>> dependent on on-board intelligence. If you want "modern", you have to
>> work modern, i.e. get hardware and do some programming to interface
>> with the existing system to emulate a running ICE.

There are lots of ways it could be done; the auto companies have just
chosen *one* of them. Once they went down that road, it becomes very
difficult to change.

The road they chose is to use a very large number of very things. Like
"the house that Jack built", it tends to be a cumulative story; layer
after layer of ad hoc solutions, each new one added to fix the
shortcomings discovered after the last one.

There *are* alternative approaches. Automotive engineers keep coming up
with improved methods to reduce the number of wires, save money, cut
weight, simplify, lower cost, improve performance and serviceability,
etc. But whenever it involves giving up on some legacy system, the
change rarely seems to happen. Thus, they haven't changed from 12v to
36v; or reduced the amount of wire in a car, or reduced the number of
circuit boards or microcomputers, etc. The parts count keeps climbing,
price keeps going up, and serviceability continues to get worse.

> Are ABS unit controllers, Airbags, and security etc. really that different
> in different cars, or could a Universal EV computer to handle those and all
> the other functions be designed and built for a price less than the car
> computer and ICE computer can be sold for at salvage?

Sure, such a thing could be built. But, it takes a lot of development
time and money to design and test it. No one wants to make the
investment. So, each company designs their own system in isolation, and
they work just barely hard enough to find a special case solution for
this particular year/make/model. Next year, they try to find ways to
modify it "just a little" to get by without a new design.

Do you realize that there are now on average over 100 lbs of wiring and
connectors, and over three dozen microcomputers in a new car? They are
designed by a dozen of different companies, each with different rules,
that barely talk to each other. The system is so complex that no one
fully understands how it works. When they need to make a change, they
wind up adding even more "stuff" because they can't figure out how to
fix or modify what's already there.

--
Lee A. Hart  | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N  | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen



------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 10:16:07 -0600
From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Can bus dash display
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B056F47.1070108@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Collin Kidder wrote:
> I'm looking for a dash mounted display which works over CAN bus.

Maybe something like Scangauge II? It reads the normal car codes, but
also has an "X gauge" mode where you can enter codes to be monitored and
displayed yourself. Of course, this assumes that you have documentation
from Elithion on what the codes are.


--
Lee A. Hart  | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N  | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen



------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 08:19:31 -0800 (PST)
From: Joseph Bonaparte <josephebonaparte@...>
Subject: [EVDL] Business Contest
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <272559.64315.qm@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Have a green business idea? Are you social-justice minded? Want to incorporate
green practices into your expanding business? Love cities, the arts, technology,
local food, community and diversity? Submit your business plan to the PBCIP
Equity Capital Competition - Top prize up to $30,000! email
greenparkside@... for more info.



Joe Bonaparte

856-296-6643



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Message: 12
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 08:39:47 -0800 (PST)
From: Alan Fuller <alan61f@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charging Voltages??
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <493853.49145.qm@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Mine is set for 175.
Alan

--- On Thu, 11/19/09, Bob Rice <bobrice@...> wrote:

From: Bob Rice <bobrice@...>
Subject: [EVDL] Charging Voltages??
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 10:11 AM

? Hi EVerybody;

? Part of the "Getting to Know You" senerio, with a 144 volt S-10; We were
wiring stuff the other nite and had the El-Con PFC-3000 charger going, I
know, I've NEVER heard of them ,ether! But this is what were using. I just
for fun, said" Let's check the voltage on the batteries, was shocked, pun
intended at the VOLTage! Was about 190-200! Gees! Do they NORMALLY go that
high when charging? Of course cutting the charging off it sagged down to
165-70 volts fairly quickly, especially when you DRIVE a bit !The batteries
were bubbling like a Coke that has sat awile, VERY gentle bubbling.So I
wasn't seeing a "full Boil" event. The charger CAME set for 144 volt
charging, so I wasn't TOO concerned. But STILL, you 144 volt guyz see THAT
kinda high voltages? How does the? Iota gunna feel, DC to dc, gunna feel,
being stuffed with 200 volts or so?The OTHER choice was to hook up Iota ALL
the time, or just when the key is turned on? Hooking it up so it is only ON
when the truk is being DRIVEN won out. I Have a Sevcon DC to dc in the Jetta
and just leave it ON all the time. I don't? know how Iota's feel about
that?I'm useta my Jetta going to 150 plus volts when charged as I only HAVE
a 150 volt meter.Ours ,on the truk, a 200 volter was Pinned!

? ? Just sniffing around on charging voltages.On our 4700 lb S-10 wonder!

???Seeya

???Bob

_______________________________________________
General support: http://evdl.org/help/
Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
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Message: 13
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 08:50:32 -0800 (PST)
From: Lawrence Rhodes <primobassoon@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OK you-all create an alternative to the car
	 computer
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <364727.32277.qm@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

YOu know I hadn't even thought to check about the airbags but my 1994 to 1997
Aspire has a brain.  I just took it out and did my conversion.  EVerything
works.  However while I can see the sensor for the air bags I have no idea if it
will work in an accident or not.  I know a person that did a Yaris.  That's as
new as you can get.  He didn't seem to have any trouble.  I guess one would have
to read the service manual to really find out.  Lawrence Rhodes..



------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 08:53:11 -0800
From: Peter Gabrielsson <peter.gabrielsson@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Can bus dash display
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <12a962740911190853lf3dc55fha86a7779ebf885c0@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

You could use the STM32 Primer2 board:
http://www.stm32circle.com/resources/stm32primer2.php


It's low cost, tools are free, (GNU) and has CAN. Display might be a
bit small though.





On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Collin Kidder <collink@...> wrote:
>
> I'm looking for a dash mounted display which works over CAN bus. I've tried
> google but the results aren't very promising. Everything is either outside
> the country or terribly expensive. I found a German company that wants
> something like 480 euros for their low end model. ?I found a couple of
> companies in England that seem to have something like what I want but they
> don't have prices online. I refuse to do business with a company which will
> post a product but not publish the price.
>
> I'm mainly interested in getting data from the Elithion system for display.
> They've recently got a dash display but I don't like it. It's just like 15
> LED's on a board. I'm looking for something LCD.
>
> Does anything exist for displaying can bus data from elithion? I'm looking
> for something reasonably priced, say under $200. Anything over that and I'll
> just use a 20x4 LCD hooked up to a PIC or something and make it myself.
> --
> View this message in context:
http://n4.nabble.com/Can-bus-dash-display-tp623728p623728.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>



--
www.electric-lemon.com



------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 10:57:25 -0600
From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
	 Businessmodel discussion...
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B0578F5.9070901@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Douglas A. Stansfield wrote:
> I really don't want to pay per mile.  As soon as that happens, the good old
> government will say they want to tax you per mile because you don't pay
> gasoline taxes anymore.....thus ruining the economic benefits that current
> EVers enjoy!!!!

You pay per mile now, though it's indirect. For example, a gallon of gas
costs $3.00 and you get 25 miles per gallon. Thus you are paying 12
cents a mile.

But, this price will vary with the cost of gas, and what mpg your car
gets. Maybe it's 10 cents/mile on this tank, and 20 cents/mile on the
next one.

Suppose you're on a fixed income. It might be attractive to sign up for
a plan that guarantees you a fixed cost per mile (15 cents/mile no
matter what). For the company to make money, their price has to be
higher than your average cost -- but, you've bought "insurance" against
a price hike to $4/gallon!

Some people won't go with this model; but others will.
--
Lee A. Hart  | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N  | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen



------------------------------

Message: 16
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 13:01:32 -0400
From: Martin K <martin.klingensmith@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OK you-all create an alternative to the car
	 computer
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <d8f29a7d0911190901h3b60415em4053589ddc403dfb@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 6:49 PM, Peter C. Thompson
<pthompso@...> wrote:
> Hi Dennis,
>
> An interesting idea. ?One thing to keep in mind is how all of these
> boxes will talk together - CAN-bus (ISO 11898) has been standardized in
> cars in the US since 1996, and in Europe since 2001 (2004 for diesel).
>
> It's a very good bet that the ECU (engine computer) is also using that
> CAN-bus. ?So it will be important to discover what other functions the
> ECU was covering. ?For example, does the airbag require the ECU to send
> "I'm operating" before turning itself on? ?How does it send the tach
> info? ?Does it interpret the gas level? ?Lots of stupid stuff to figure
> out, sorry to say.

I think the safety features are controlled by a separate computer, one
that just does safety.
I have no idea if you can replace the ECU and other computers without
affecting safety.

--
Martin K.



------------------------------

Message: 17
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 12:17:25 -0500
From: Collin Kidder <collink@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Can bus dash display
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <4B057DA5.3030702@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Thank you to both you and Lee Hart for the valuable suggestions! I'm
looking into both.

On 11/19/2009 11:53 AM, Peter Gabrielsson wrote:
> You could use the STM32 Primer2 board:
> http://www.stm32circle.com/resources/stm32primer2.php
>
>
> It's low cost, tools are free, (GNU) and has CAN. Display might be a
> bit small though.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Collin Kidder<collink@...>  wrote:
>
>> I'm looking for a dash mounted display which works over CAN bus. I've tried
>> google but the results aren't very promising. Everything is either outside
>> the country or terribly expensive. I found a German company that wants
>> something like 480 euros for their low end model.  I found a couple of
>> companies in England that seem to have something like what I want but they
>> don't have prices online. I refuse to do business with a company which will
>> post a product but not publish the price.
>>
>> I'm mainly interested in getting data from the Elithion system for display.
>> They've recently got a dash display but I don't like it. It's just like 15
>> LED's on a board. I'm looking for something LCD.
>>
>> Does anything exist for displaying can bus data from elithion? I'm looking
>> for something reasonably priced, say under $200. Anything over that and I'll
>> just use a 20x4 LCD hooked up to a PIC or something and make it myself.
>> --
>> View this message in context:
http://n4.nabble.com/Can-bus-dash-display-tp623728p623728.html
>> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>



------------------------------

Message: 18
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 12:48:09 -0500
From: "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
	 Businessmodel discussion...
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <75D60897F47946F99349AA69CAC8F7B4@adminwlzisp2uc>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original


----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <leeahart@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 11:57 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
Businessmodel discussion...


> Douglas A. Stansfield wrote:
>> I really don't want to pay per mile.  As soon as that happens, the good
>> old
>> government will say they want to tax you per mile because you don't pay
>> gasoline taxes anymore.....thus ruining the economic benefits that
>> current
>> EVers enjoy!!!!
    Were flying under the radar, with our EV's State and Feds haven't been
exactly lying awake nites worring anout a few "Crackpots" like us? But IF
EV's come on strong(waiting over 40 YEARS for that!) I'm SURE they will just
hit us with a higher tag fee, call it "Road Use Tax?"? Easy to implant, like
ripping off drivers for Smog Checks,20 bux, in CT. Like IF you don't get
checked they WON'T let ya renew yur tag!  Figuring, with present EV Tech,
you aren't USING the road that much, anyhow? Surely not chewing it up, like
heavy trux do?We pay a "penelity"by spending the bux to convert or buy an
ev, as it is?

    Bob

> You pay per mile now, though it's indirect. For example, a gallon of gas
> costs $3.00 and you get 25 miles per gallon. Thus you are paying 12
> cents a mile.
>
> But, this price will vary with the cost of gas, and what mpg your car
> gets. Maybe it's 10 cents/mile on this tank, and 20 cents/mile on the
> next one.
>
> Suppose you're on a fixed income. It might be attractive to sign up for
> a plan that guarantees you a fixed cost per mile (15 cents/mile no
> matter what). For the company to make money, their price has to be
> higher than your average cost -- but, you've bought "insurance" against
> a price hike to $4/gallon!
>
> Some people won't go with this model; but others will.
> --
> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



------------------------------

Message: 19
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 09:47:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Lock Hughes <lockhughes@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Business Contest
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <900647.77391.qm@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Just to be clear, this appears to only be available for a plan that involves a
business willing to locate in an area of Camden, New Jersey USA...

Some details here:
http://www.pbcip.org/PBCIP%20Equity%20Capital%20Contest%20Press%20Release.pdf

tks
Lock

--- On Thu, 11/19/09, Joseph Bonaparte <josephebonaparte@...> wrote:

> From: Joseph Bonaparte <josephebonaparte@...>
> Subject: [EVDL] Business Contest
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
> Received: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 11:19 AM
> Have a green business idea? Are you
> social-justice minded? Want to incorporate green practices
> into your expanding business? Love cities, the arts,
> technology, local food, community and diversity? Submit your
> business plan to the PBCIP Equity Capital Competition - Top
> prize up to $30,000! email greenparkside@...
> for more info.
>
>
>
> Joe Bonaparte
>
> 856-296-6643
>
>
> ? ? ?
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>


       __________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your
favourite sites. Download it now
http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com.



------------------------------

Message: 20
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 12:47:53 -0500
From: Phil Marino <phil42277@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ev computers??
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <660221ca0911190947m6c7c50di72d9eb883e637c4d@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Wayne -

Not all cars use the engine computer (ECM) to drive the speedo.   On my
Toyota Echo conversion ( 2001, but I think they're all the same, including
Scion A's and B's and Yaris's) the speedometer is controlled by the dash
display.  I removed the ECM and the speedo works fine.  The engine computer
apparently did nothing but control the engine.  The airbags have their own
computer which is not connected in any way to the ECM.

Also, I found that having a copy of the manufacturer's wiring diagram (
actually a 100+ page book) helped tremendously.  I didn't have to blindly
cut any wires and hope for the best.

Phil Marino
Rochester, NY

On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 9:49 AM, Electric Blue auto convertions <
electricblue@...> wrote:

>
>
> Since I have been doing conversions the only thing I found out about the
> cars ICE, ECM is that it drives the speed-0, thats all its used for when you
> take out the ICE, the ECM has no more duties to do except the speedo, when
> Im done with the conversion i cut all the wireing while the car is running
> in gear and keeping an eye on the speed-o  one set of wires at a time.
>
> When im done all i have is the speedo wireing to the ECM and some 12 volt
> inputs and grounds ABS uses a seperate ECM.
>
>
>
> dont try and reinvent the wheel     wayne   ev-blue.com
> -------------- next part --------------
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> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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>
>
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Message: 21
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 12:52:38 -0500
From: Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OK you-all create an alternative to the car
	 computer
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <2b4886ce0911190952i460ea374tde5316bbc7f593fb@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 12:01 PM, Martin K <martin.klingensmith@...>wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 6:49 PM, Peter C. Thompson
> <pthompso@...> wrote:
> > Hi Dennis,
> >
> > An interesting idea.  One thing to keep in mind is how all of these
> > boxes will talk together - CAN-bus (ISO 11898) has been standardized in
> > cars in the US since 1996, and in Europe since 2001 (2004 for diesel).
> >
> > It's a very good bet that the ECU (engine computer) is also using that
> > CAN-bus.  So it will be important to discover what other functions the
> > ECU was covering.  For example, does the airbag require the ECU to send
> > "I'm operating" before turning itself on?  How does it send the tach
> > info?  Does it interpret the gas level?  Lots of stupid stuff to figure
> > out, sorry to say.
>
> I think the safety features are controlled by a separate computer, one
> that just does safety.
> I have no idea if you can replace the ECU and other computers without
> affecting safety.
>
> --
> Martin K.
>
> =====================Hi, Martin ================================
>
I was recently "Enlightened" by the "Grand Old Man" of EV Conversions, We
all know and respect him, " Wayne, of "Electric Blue."

  I have been "Brought up to Speed" on what I call, "KISEVC" (that is: Keep
It Simple EV Converters!) A philosophy similar to "KISS" I have tried to
practice all my life. (Keep It Simple Stupid!)

Here it is "From the Horses Mouth!" :

  #1. The ABS has its own "Box" so leave it alone.

  #2. The Airbag System is just the impact sensor and a relay, and the
Pyrotechnic device in           the bag, so leave all that alone too.

  #3. When removing the ICE any wires going to a ECU box you can cut right
off, leave the box      as it may control the speedometer (Don't cut the
wire going to the speed sensor or the speedometer won't work!) reconnect
ground wires to a point near the ECU Box.

.#4. Cut the wire to the "Check Motor" light and use it for some other
function.

If you have a nice big analog tachometer in the dash, convert it to a
battery pack ammeter or voltmeter or some other function, of your choice.
The same with any other dials, fuel, oil pressure, water temperature, etc.

Thanks for the Education, Wayne !

Regards to you-all,

     Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
        Phone (863) 289 - 0690
"We provide Mentoring, Small Group Instruction, and Hands-On training
  for the EV Technicians: Building, Converting, Repairing, and Servicing
the Electric Vehicles of Today, and the Future."
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------------------------------

Message: 22
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 13:22:40 -0500
From: Mark Hanson <marke.hanson@...>
Subject: [EVDL] Insightless MPG
To: <ev@...>
Message-ID: <SNT114-W51E12C62286014790B1A0384A20@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"


Hi,



Yesterday there was a NiMh battery Insight email but can't remember who but a
guy at the EV show here asked me what the MPG would be on my 70 mpg Insight if I
removed all the hybrid stuff & dropped a couple hundred pounds what would the
MPG be?.  Does enyone know, has it been done?  (Probably whimpy acceleration
though.)



(But the DC converter that supplies the access 14V wouldn't work I don't think.)



I'm thinking about going plug-in LiFePO4 though.



have a renewable energy day,

Mark

_________________________________________________________________
Bing brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place.
http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MFESRP&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFES\
RP_Local_MapsMenu_Resturants_1x1
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------------------------------

Message: 23
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 13:30:01 -0500
From: Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Business Contest
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <2b4886ce0911191030p15cc205evac2e134ba57070f6@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Well, I was hoping for something a bit less Real Estate Development oriented
when you list on an Intercontinental Forum like the "EVDL"  Even I in
Florida won't move for such a meager prize. Now talk to me about Tampa Bay
and $300,000 and we can get serious.  Even putting together a small (150
seat) Restaurant and Lounge will take over $150,000. And over half of that
will be "Leasehold Improvements.
Regards,
   Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
        Phone (863) 289 - 0690
"We provide Mentoring, Small Group Instruction, and Hands-On training for
the EV Technicians: Building, Converting, Repairing, and Servicing the
  Electric Vehicles of Today, and the Future." http://home.RR.electricvehicle
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------\
--------------------------------------
On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 12:47 PM, Lock Hughes <lockhughes@...> wrote:

> Just to be clear, this appears to only be available for a plan that
> involves a business willing to locate in an area of Camden, New Jersey
> USA...
>
> Some details here:
>
> http://www.pbcip.org/PBCIP%20Equity%20Capital%20Contest%20Press%20Release.pdf
>
> tks
> Lock
>
> --- On Thu, 11/19/09, Joseph Bonaparte <josephebonaparte@...> wrote:
>
> > From: Joseph Bonaparte <josephebonaparte@...>
> > Subject: [EVDL] Business Contest
> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
> > Received: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 11:19 AM
> > Have a green business idea? Are you
> > social-justice minded? Want to incorporate green practices
> > into your expanding business? Love cities, the arts,
> > technology, local food, community and diversity? Submit your
> > business plan to the PBCIP Equity Capital Competition - Top
> > prize up to $30,000! email greenparkside@...
> > for more info.
> >
> >
> >
> > Joe Bonaparte
> >
> > 856-296-6643
> >
> >
> >
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL:
>
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20091119/7012c620/attachmen\
t.html
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> > Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> > Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> > Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> >
>
>
>       __________________________________________________________________
> Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your
> favourite sites. Download it now
> http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>


--
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------------------------------

Message: 24
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 10:35:45 -0800
From: Steven Lough <stevenslough@...>
Subject: [EVDL] TIME Article on EV's
To: seva@..., Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR
	 <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B059001.3080901@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed

Took great issue with a recent TIME article on EV's   Sent the following
Letter to the Editor...

Article read:
As Electric Cars Arrive, Where Will They Plug In?

Check it out and add your own voice at:

http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1940117,00.html
----------------------------------------------------
Dear TIME:
    Take Great issue with your first LINE. ."There are probably fewer
than 1,500 plug-in electric vehicles on the road"

In our City alone  One of our EV Dealers has sold OVER 300 Road Worthy
Electric Cars.  And this does not count a growing fleet of TESLA
Roadsters, and dozens of Home Built Converted gas cars to Electric.

Check out the ( www.EV Photo Album ) for a few thousand more.

California's brief experiment with EV's in the mid 90's found that even
with HUNDREDS of public charging stations, 95% of EV Owners charged AT
HOME every evening.  The so-called ?Infrastructure? is already HERE.

   The Electric Power Research Institute (EPRI) calculates that 80% of
all the motor cars in America could be Electric Tomorrow night, and if
they charged at home off peak, that there would be no need for any
further electric generation than what we already have.  Please do more
research before publication?

Steve Lough
President
Seattle EV Association
Chapter of the National EAA(www.eaaev.org)

------------------------------------------------------------------

PS: For those of you who get e-mail from CalCar.org, please take the
time to read the OpEd which Thomas Friedman recently wrote in the NY
Times...  He's MY kind of guy.....
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle,  WA  98115-7230
Day:  206 524 1351
Cell:   206 850 8535
e-mail: stevenslough@...
web:     http://www.seattleeva.org



------------------------------

Message: 25
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 13:45:07 -0500
From: "Douglas A. Stansfield" <Doug@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
	 Businessmodel discussion...
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <021501ca6948$6a60a1c0$3f21e540$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I guess I should have been clearer....

I don't want to pay my Gas car per mile rate to drive my EV....  $0.15 per
mile versus $0.02 per mile.  With Net metering and V2G the cost to charge
could drop significantly.  I had a speaker at my NJ Electric Auto
Association meeting on Tuesday night that showed a potential "floating"
electricity rate based on demand and thus the peak demand KWH rate was $0.12
(same as my all the time rate now) and the overnight rate was $0.02 per KWH.
If I charge my car at that rate overnight, I am almost driving for free!!!!
In my EV is takes about 8 to 10 KWH to charge the pack (less if I didn't
drive very much) and at $0.02 KWH I can fully charge the car for $0.20!!!!
Range is about 20 miles right now so that would work out to only $0.01 per
mile!

As I understand the Better Place Model they take the ICE cost per mile and
charge you the same amount for the EV.  That profit margin is why the
company raised a record amount of first round venture funding.....


Sincerely;

Douglas A. Stansfield
President
www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
973-875-6276 (office)
973-670-9208 (cell)
973-440-1619 (fax)

WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS





-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
Of Lee Hart
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 11:57 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
Businessmodel discussion...

Douglas A. Stansfield wrote:
> I really don't want to pay per mile.  As soon as that happens, the good
old
> government will say they want to tax you per mile because you don't pay
> gasoline taxes anymore.....thus ruining the economic benefits that current
> EVers enjoy!!!!

You pay per mile now, though it's indirect. For example, a gallon of gas
costs $3.00 and you get 25 miles per gallon. Thus you are paying 12
cents a mile.

But, this price will vary with the cost of gas, and what mpg your car
gets. Maybe it's 10 cents/mile on this tank, and 20 cents/mile on the
next one.

Suppose you're on a fixed income. It might be attractive to sign up for
a plan that guarantees you a fixed cost per mile (15 cents/mile no
matter what). For the company to make money, their price has to be
higher than your average cost -- but, you've bought "insurance" against
a price hike to $4/gallon!

Some people won't go with this model; but others will.
--
Lee A. Hart  | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N  | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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------------------------------

Message: 26
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 21:07:25 +0200
From: Jukka J?rvinen <jarviju@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Can bus dash display
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <c793c28a0911191107t7462527evbf6aaf9f4094443a@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

http://maemo.nokia.com/n900/
+
microUSB-USB-CAN -adapter (mybe even BT-CAN !!)
+
some OS SW... (have to pull the link somewhere..don't have it now at hand..)

There's also eBMS interface for iPhone cooking up..

-Jukka



2009/11/19 Collin Kidder <collink@...>:
> Thank you to both you and Lee Hart for the valuable suggestions! I'm
> looking into both.
>
> On 11/19/2009 11:53 AM, Peter Gabrielsson wrote:
>> You could use the STM32 Primer2 board:
>> http://www.stm32circle.com/resources/stm32primer2.php
>>
>>
>> It's low cost, tools are free, (GNU) and has CAN. Display might be a
>> bit small though.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Collin Kidder<collink@...> ?wrote:
>>
>>> I'm looking for a dash mounted display which works over CAN bus. I've tried
>>> google but the results aren't very promising. Everything is either outside
>>> the country or terribly expensive. I found a German company that wants
>>> something like 480 euros for their low end model. ?I found a couple of
>>> companies in England that seem to have something like what I want but they
>>> don't have prices online. I refuse to do business with a company which will
>>> post a product but not publish the price.
>>>
>>> I'm mainly interested in getting data from the Elithion system for display.
>>> They've recently got a dash display but I don't like it. It's just like 15
>>> LED's on a board. I'm looking for something LCD.
>>>
>>> Does anything exist for displaying can bus data from elithion? I'm looking
>>> for something reasonably priced, say under $200. Anything over that and I'll
>>> just use a 20x4 LCD hooked up to a PIC or something and make it myself.
>>> --
>>> View this message in context:
http://n4.nabble.com/Can-bus-dash-display-tp623728p623728.html
>>> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>



------------------------------

Message: 27
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 14:48:23 -0500
From: "EVDL Administrator" <evpost@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Slightly OT: Rust prevention was Re: Start up a
	 RENT YOUR PACK OF BATTERIES store
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B055AB7.1208.8F4B3C@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

On 18 Nov 2009 at 19:49, David Nelson wrote:

> Undercoating does help.

Yes, but it's less essential today since more vehicles contain more
galvanized steel, and innercoating is much better than the spray paint used
inside panels in the 1960s and 1970s.  Automakers give much more thought to
how moisture is kept away from the steel than they did in those days.  They
have to, since now most provide rustout warranties.

Besides, the more of that rustproofing and undercoating gunk you apply, the
more the vehicle weighs, and that makes a difference in EVs.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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------------------------------

Message: 28
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 14:48:23 -0500
From: "EVDL Administrator" <evpost@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
	 Businessmodel discussion...
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B055AB7.18821.8F4B18@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

On 18 Nov 2009 at 16:25, Douglas A. Stansfield wrote:

> I really don't want to pay per mile.  As soon as that happens, the good old
> government will say they want to tax you per mile because you don't pay
> gasoline taxes anymore.....thus ruining the economic benefits that current
> EVers enjoy!!!!

That's how we'll know that EVs are truly mainstream.  ;-)

Seriously, we've discussed the issue of road taxes many times over the
years; check the archive for more information.

Of course, nobody wants to pay more tax.  I also agree that waiving taxes
makes a good incentive to go electric, and you can think of it as credit for
not contributing to the public (tax-paid!) costs of air pollution and
petroleum usage.

But it isn't characteristic of our society to consider these social costs,
so  many other people don't see it our way.  If we don't pay our fair share
of road taxes we leave ourselves open to challenge and attack from ICE
users.

Just ask anybody who charges at work.  If you don't make it very clear that
you're paying for the electricity, eventually someone wants to know why the
company doesn't buy him gasoline.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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------------------------------

Message: 29
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 14:48:23 -0500
From: "EVDL Administrator" <evpost@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] GEM, Suzuki, misc
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B055AB7.8679.8F4B69@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On 19 Nov 2009 at 4:21, wwwmail@... wrote:

> 3.? Has anyone heard any more truth or folly?regarding magnetic repulse
> technology to enhance battery use?

Welcome to the EVDL!  You're fine with this post, right on target, except
possibly for the point above.

I got no hits for the phrase "magnetic repulse technology" in a search
engine, so I don't know for sure what that might be.  However, we do have a
long-standing ban here on discussion of overunity devices, "free energy,"
and similar gimmicks that seem to violate the laws of classical physics.

That includes the "magnetic repulsion" motors.

Not to make you feel unwelcome, but if that's what this refers to, please
take it to one of the web forums which discuss these unorthodox ideas.

The other subjects in your post are MOST welcome, however.

EVDL posting guidelines are here :

http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#conv

Note point 2a.

Thanks!

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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------------------------------

Message: 30
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 14:48:23 -0500
From: "EVDL Administrator" <evpost@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Business Contest
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B055AB7.15825.8F4B8C@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

In my book, this is a spam thread.  Please do not respond.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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------------------------------

Message: 31
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 14:48:23 -0500
From: "EVDL Administrator" <evpost@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Insightless MPG
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B055AB7.25670.8F4AEC@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

On 19 Nov 2009 at 13:22, Mark Hanson wrote:

> a guy at the EV show here asked me what the MPG would be on my 70 mpg
> Insight if I removed all the hybrid stuff & dropped a couple hundred
> pounds what would the MPG be?.  Does enyone know, has it been done?
> (Probably whimpy acceleration though.)

Just ask anyone whose IMA battery has failed.  Apparently there are quite a
few.  ;-)

The IMA on a Honda "hybrid" is an electric supercharger.  Without it (if the
computer even lets the car run) acceleration will be poor.  There will also
be more vibration,.as the IMA was used to level out the lumpiness of the 3-
cylinder engine.  (Clever.)

MPG discussions are off topic on the EVDL, but converting a production
"hybrid" to plug in or pure battery is not.  I think an Insight should make
a fine BEV, but I suspect that space and weight capacity will pretty much
mandate lithium batteries.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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------------------------------

_______________________________________________
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For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



End of EV Digest, Vol 28, Issue 28
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Today's Topics:

    1. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost (Roger Heuckeroth)
    2. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place - Businessmodel
       discussion... (Roger Heuckeroth)
    3. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost (Martin K)
    4. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place - Businessmodel
       discussion... (Douglas A. Stansfield)
    5. Re: GE getting into sodium batteries? (Roger Heuckeroth)
    6. OK you-all create an alternative to the car computer
       (Dennis Miles)
    7. Re: OK you-all create an alternative to the car computer
       (Peter C. Thompson)
    8. Re: OK you-all create an alternative to the car computer
       (Dennis Miles)
    9.  Can bus dash display (Collin Kidder)
   10. Re: Can bus dash display (Travis Gintz)
   11. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -Businessmodel
       discussion... (Richard Furniss)
   12. Re: Can bus dash display (Morgan LaMoore)
   13. Re: ESD plastic? (Thor Johnson)
   14. Optimum A123 Racing Pack (Roger Heuckeroth)
   15. Re: ESD plastic? (Roger Heuckeroth)
   16. Re: Optimum A123 Racing Pack (Morgan LaMoore)
   17. Slightly OT: Rust prevention was Re: Start up a RENT YOUR
       PACK OF BATTERIES store (David Nelson)
   18. Re: Optimum A123 Racing Pack (Bill Dube)
   19. Re: ESD plastic? (Lee Hart)
   20. Re: OK you-all create an alternative to the car computer
       (cowtown@...)
   21. GEM, Suzuki, misc (wwwmail@...)
   22. Re: Slightly OT: Rust prevention was Re: Start up a RENT YOUR
       PACK OF BATTERIES store (Dennis Miles)
   23. Re: ESD plastic? (Dennis Miles)
   24. Re: OK you-all create an alternative to the car computer
       (Dennis Miles)
   25. Re: Can bus dash display (Collin Kidder)
   26. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -Businessmodel
       discussion... (Dave Davidson)
   27. Re: Slightly OT: Rust prevention was Re: Start up a RENTYOUR
       PACK OF BATTERIES store (Bob Rice)
   28. Re: Optimum A123 Racing Pack (Roger Heuckeroth)
   29. Re: Optimum A123 Racing Pack (Ole-Egil Hvitmyren)
   30. Re: Nissan Leaf to be low cost (Jeff Shanab)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 16:03:58 -0500
From: Roger Heuckeroth <rheuckeroth@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <126B2DFF-B5C4-48FC-A5F5-500004BAB713@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"


On Nov 17, 2009, at 4:20 PM, Martin K wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 4:18 PM, Martin K <martin.klingensmith@...
> > wrote:
>
>>> Notice that *none* of the batteries used in *any* of the recent auto
>>> company produced EVs or hybrids are available from anyone except the
>>> original carmaker. Even though in most cases, these batteries were
>>> actually made by someone *other* than GM, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota,
>>> Honda,
>>> Nissan etc.
>>>
>>
>> But it's not apparent that a third party could be legally prevented
>> from making batteries that work with these cars (physical
>> restrictions
>> are fixed with a hack saw, basically.) As an example, Lexmark sued a
>> company that "circumvented" their lock-out for toner cartridges. They
>> lost the case.
>>
>> --
>> Martin K.
>>
>
>
> Getting back to the original point: if 20,000 people who owned used
> electric vehicles who couldn't buy new batteries said "please, someone
> sell us a battery pack" - you can bet someone's going to figure out
> how to take their money and sell them a battery.

Do you think Nissan / Better Place are going to make it so easy?  It
will no doubt be a "smart battery", and the cars computer will not
allow just any battery to be installed.  In order to make it work, you
will need to hack the code, and then get sued by Better Place.  I hope
I'm wrong...
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 16:12:20 -0500
From: Roger Heuckeroth <rheuckeroth@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
	 Businessmodel discussion...
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <8D9BDF25-55B1-4E76-A2BD-5143CE6EB547@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes


On Nov 17, 2009, at 9:53 PM, Richard Furniss wrote:

> Roger wrote:
> If I can't buy the
> battery, I won't buy the car.  Offering a lease option is fine, but
> mandating use of their network is not.
>
> The Leaf comes with a built in charger, you give it 110v or 220v at
> home. You don't have to change out your battery pack unless you want
> to refuel like a ICE, in minutes.

If you listen to Shai Agasi describe the Better Place Model... Even if
you charge at home (or anyplace else) you still will get charged for
the miles you use.  If you charge at home, you will get money back for
the electricity you supplied, but still get charged per mile.



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 17:19:19 -0400
From: Martin K <martin.klingensmith@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <d8f29a7d0911181319r1cf1ec1dh904aaf663e8bb451@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 5:03 PM, Roger Heuckeroth
<rheuckeroth@...> wrote:
>> Getting back to the original point: if 20,000 people who owned used
>> electric vehicles who couldn't buy new batteries said "please, someone
>> sell us a battery pack" - you can bet someone's going to figure out
>> how to take their money and sell them a battery.
>
> Do you think Nissan / Better Place are going to make it so easy? ?It
> will no doubt be a "smart battery", and the cars computer will not
> allow just any battery to be installed. ?In order to make it work, you
> will need to hack the code, and then get sued by Better Place. ?I hope
> I'm wrong...

You guys keep forgetting the original question I was responding to:
someone said that they hope Nissan doesn't change their battery design
for Rev.2 and leave people stranded with NO BATTERY option AT ALL. I
responded and said it's very unlikely. I was not talking about buying
the car sans-battery and trying to hack your own batteries in-place.

--
Martin K.



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 16:25:29 -0500
From: "Douglas A. Stansfield" <Doug@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
	 Businessmodel discussion...
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <00ff01ca6895$a75fce10$f61f6a30$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I really don't want to pay per mile.  As soon as that happens, the good old
government will say they want to tax you per mile because you don't pay
gasoline taxes anymore.....thus ruining the economic benefits that current
EVers enjoy!!!!


Sincerely;

Douglas A. Stansfield
President
www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
973-875-6276 (office)
973-670-9208 (cell)
973-440-1619 (fax)

WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS




-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
Of Roger Heuckeroth
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 4:12 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place -
Businessmodel discussion...


On Nov 17, 2009, at 9:53 PM, Richard Furniss wrote:

> Roger wrote:
> If I can't buy the
> battery, I won't buy the car.  Offering a lease option is fine, but
> mandating use of their network is not.
>
> The Leaf comes with a built in charger, you give it 110v or 220v at
> home. You don't have to change out your battery pack unless you want
> to refuel like a ICE, in minutes.

If you listen to Shai Agasi describe the Better Place Model... Even if
you charge at home (or anyplace else) you still will get charged for
the miles you use.  If you charge at home, you will get money back for
the electricity you supplied, but still get charged per mile.

_______________________________________________
General support: http://evdl.org/help/
Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 16:29:32 -0500
From: Roger Heuckeroth <rheuckeroth@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] GE getting into sodium batteries?
To: rodhower@..., Electric Vehicle Discussion List
	 <ev@...>
Message-ID: <345EC45A-5467-4302-8070-CFDB4B6D8DD7@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes

Wonder if Warren Buffet had any influence on the locomotive first
strategy.  He loaned GE $10B of his own money and as you probably know
he just bought another railroad company.  Maybe setting himself up to
be king of low cost freight transport.

On Nov 18, 2009, at 8:58 AM, rodhower@... wrote:

> I just got this email from a recruiter,
> "I am responsible for recruiting key positions for General Electric.
> As you may know we are currently setting up a new business in New
> York State to develop & manufacture sodium battery technology for a
> number of sectors, including transportation, power, UPS &
> telecommunications."
> I know GE invested money in A123, but didn't realize they where
> playing with sodium batteries again.  I googled and found this,
>
http://inspiredeconomist.com/2009/05/12/ge-to-open-100-million-sodium-battery-pl\
ant-in-ny/
> and this,
>
http://blog.timesunion.com/capitol/archives/14402/gov-announces-sodium-battery-f\
acility-in-nisky/
> Looks like they'll be using it in a hybrid locomotive, right up Bob
> Rice's alley :-)
> Rod
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 17:33:52 -0500
From: Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...>
Subject: [EVDL] OK you-all create an alternative to the car computer
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>,
	 evtech@...
Message-ID:
	 <2b4886ce0911181433o7689152k9d04201cea4c350b@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

My Companions on the trip to EV dominance,
This is what might be called "A Real Conversion Implementer."

  If I want to convert a modern car to an EV, one impediment is the computer.
About 85 % of what it does relates to controlling the ICE, and I'm taking
that out. but if it fails later it will cost upwards of $400.00 to replace,
if available 10 years from now.

Assuming I want to do a full battery only system with a 144 to 288 v. pack
with independent charger and BMS to work with any ac/dc motor/controller
matched set.

  This can be as simple as two modules, one 12x24x6 in. box with fuses and
relays and input terminals from controlling switches like headlights, turn
signals, backup lights, brake, and interior, and ignition/start switch  and
connections for outputs to tail,backup,brake lights, turn signal and parking
lights, interior lights and headlights, and ignition switch to motor
controller.

  I wouldn't mind replacing the entire wiring harness if necessary.

  A second box 14x6x1 inch replaces the dash and has rocker switches for all
the functions listed except Brake, turn signal, flashers,and Wipers (Use
original switches for those.)

  If needed make another box for heater, defroster, and A. C. controls. but
these look nicer built in.

  Instrumentation? look at Leeahart@..., Now THAT is
instrumentation (Looks more impressive than a B-52)

Now this can all be done with 12v. relay logic or it can be more
sophisticated. Can you design it to last 20 years???

What if I find a potential glider that had an engine fire? they sell for
$200 at the auto auction?  If it didn't engulf th whole car the stuff under
the hood can be replacer for about $750 including repainting the front half.

Regards,
     Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
        Phone (863) 289 - 0690
"We provide Mentoring, Small Group Instruction, and Hands-On training for
the EV Technicians: Building, Converting, Repairing, and Servicing the
Electric Vehicles of Today, and the Future."
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Message: 7
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 14:49:05 -0800
From: "Peter C. Thompson" <pthompso@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OK you-all create an alternative to the car
	 computer
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B0479E1.1080504@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed

Hi Dennis,

An interesting idea.  One thing to keep in mind is how all of these
boxes will talk together - CAN-bus (ISO 11898) has been standardized in
cars in the US since 1996, and in Europe since 2001 (2004 for diesel).

It's a very good bet that the ECU (engine computer) is also using that
CAN-bus.  So it will be important to discover what other functions the
ECU was covering.  For example, does the airbag require the ECU to send
"I'm operating" before turning itself on?  How does it send the tach
info?  Does it interpret the gas level?  Lots of stupid stuff to figure
out, sorry to say.

I guess it also depends on how advanced the car is as to how much of the
wiring you will need to rip out.  Some cars have a LOT of stuff on the
CAN-bus and some just barely use it.  *shrug*

Just my $0.02 worth.  :)

Cheers,
     Peter


Dennis Miles wrote:
> My Companions on the trip to EV dominance,
> This is what might be called "A Real Conversion Implementer."
>
>  If I want to convert a modern car to an EV, one impediment is the computer.
> About 85 % of what it does relates to controlling the ICE, and I'm taking
> that out. but if it fails later it will cost upwards of $400.00 to replace,
> if available 10 years from now.
>
> Assuming I want to do a full battery only system with a 144 to 288 v. pack
> with independent charger and BMS to work with any ac/dc motor/controller
> matched set.
>
>  This can be as simple as two modules, one 12x24x6 in. box with fuses and
> relays and input terminals from controlling switches like headlights, turn
> signals, backup lights, brake, and interior, and ignition/start switch  and
> connections for outputs to tail,backup,brake lights, turn signal and parking
> lights, interior lights and headlights, and ignition switch to motor
> controller.
>
>  I wouldn't mind replacing the entire wiring harness if necessary.
>
>  A second box 14x6x1 inch replaces the dash and has rocker switches for all
> the functions listed except Brake, turn signal, flashers,and Wipers (Use
> original switches for those.)
>
>  If needed make another box for heater, defroster, and A. C. controls. but
> these look nicer built in.
>
>  Instrumentation? look at Leeahart@..., Now THAT is
> instrumentation (Looks more impressive than a B-52)
>
> Now this can all be done with 12v. relay logic or it can be more
> sophisticated. Can you design it to last 20 years???
>
> What if I find a potential glider that had an engine fire? they sell for
> $200 at the auto auction?  If it didn't engulf th whole car the stuff under
> the hood can be replacer for about $750 including repainting the front half.
>
> Regards,
>     Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
> Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
> Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
>        Phone (863) 289 - 0690
> "We provide Mentoring, Small Group Instruction, and Hands-On training for
> the EV Technicians: Building, Converting, Repairing, and Servicing the
> Electric Vehicles of Today, and the Future."
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20091118/38ce12b7/attachmen\
t.html
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> .
>
>


--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Peter C. Thompson*
*Qualcomm, Incorporated.*     Office: +1 (858) 658-1936     Mobile: +1
(858) 692-3571
AIM: PThompson509       Yahoo!:peter_thompson       MSN:
N26688@...       Skype: PThompson509



------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 19:02:02 -0500
From: Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OK you-all create an alternative to the car
	 computer
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <2b4886ce0911181602g51046ddre7cd416663a91285@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 5:49 PM, Peter C. Thompson <pthompso@...>wrote:

> Hi Dennis,
>
> An interesting idea.  One thing to keep in mind is how all of these
> boxes will talk together - CAN-bus (ISO 11898) has been standardized in
> cars in the US since 1996, and in Europe since 2001 (2004 for diesel).
>
> It's a very good bet that the ECU (engine computer) is also using that
> CAN-bus.  So it will be important to discover what other functions the
> ECU was covering.  For example, does the airbag require the ECU to send
> "I'm operating" before turning itself on?  How does it send the tach
> info?  Does it interpret the gas level?  Lots of stupid stuff to figure
> out, sorry to say.
>
> I guess it also depends on how advanced the car is as to how much of the
> wiring you will need to rip out.  Some cars have a LOT of stuff on the
> CAN-bus and some just barely use it.  *shrug*
>
> Just my $0.02 worth.  :)
>
> Cheers,
>    Peter
>
>
> Dennis Miles wrote:
> > My Companions on the trip to EV dominance,
> > This is what might be called "A Real Conversion Implementer."
> >
> >  If I want to convert a modern car to an EV, one impediment is the
> computer.
> > About 85 % of what it does relates to controlling the ICE, and I'm taking
> > that out. but if it fails later it will cost upwards of $400.00 to
> replace,
> > if available 10 years from now.
> >
> > Assuming I want to do a full battery only system with a 144 to 288 v.
> pack
> > with independent charger and BMS to work with any ac/dc motor/controller
> > matched set.
> >
> >  This can be as simple as two modules, one 12x24x6 in. box with fuses and
> > relays and input terminals from controlling switches like headlights,
> turn
> > signals, backup lights, brake, and interior, and ignition/start switch
>  and
> > connections for outputs to tail,backup,brake lights, turn signal and
> parking
> > lights, interior lights and headlights, and ignition switch to motor
> > controller.
> >
> >  I wouldn't mind replacing the entire wiring harness if necessary.
> >
> >  A second box 14x6x1 inch replaces the dash and has rocker switches for
> all
> > the functions listed except Brake, turn signal, flashers,and Wipers (Use
> > original switches for those.)
> >
> >  If needed make another box for heater, defroster, and A. C. controls.
> but
> > these look nicer built in.
> >
> >  Instrumentation? look at Leeahart@..., Now THAT is
> > instrumentation (Looks more impressive than a B-52)
> >
> > Now this can all be done with 12v. relay logic or it can be more
> > sophisticated. Can you design it to last 20 years???
> >
> > What if I find a potential glider that had an engine fire? they sell for
> > $200 at the auto auction?  If it didn't engulf th whole car the stuff
> under
> > the hood can be replacer for about $750 including repainting the front
> half.
> >
> > Regards,
> >     Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
> > Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
> > Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
> >        Phone (863) 289 - 0690
> > "We provide Mentoring, Small Group Instruction, and Hands-On training for
> > the EV Technicians: Building, Converting, Repairing, and Servicing the
> > Electric Vehicles of Today, and the Future."
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL:
>
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20091118/38ce12b7/attachmen\
t.html
> > _______________________________________________
> > General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> > Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> > Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> > Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> > .
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *Peter C. Thompson*
> *Qualcomm, Incorporated.*     Office: +1 (858) 658-1936     Mobile: +1
> (858) 692-3571
> AIM: PThompson509       Yahoo!:peter_thompson       MSN:
> N26688@...       Skype: PThompson509
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> ==============Do we want to use the CAN bus ?=============================
Or CAN we avoid it and simplify the wiring in the EV, for example under hood
to the trunk only needs 4 conductors. and 6 to the front lights. Everything
else is under the hood or in the dash
except Pack wiring. (I put pack wiring in two inch Aluminised  Exhaust
Tubing under the cabin floor.)
Regards,
     Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
        Phone (863) 289 - 0690
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Message: 9
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 16:09:40 -0800 (PST)
From: Collin Kidder <collink@...>
Subject: [EVDL]  Can bus dash display
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <1258589380447-623728.post@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


I'm looking for a dash mounted display which works over CAN bus. I've tried
google but the results aren't very promising. Everything is either outside
the country or terribly expensive. I found a German company that wants
something like 480 euros for their low end model.  I found a couple of
companies in England that seem to have something like what I want but they
don't have prices online. I refuse to do business with a company which will
post a product but not publish the price.

I'm mainly interested in getting data from the Elithion system for display.
They've recently got a dash display but I don't like it. It's just like 15
LED's on a board. I'm looking for something LCD.

Does anything exist for displaying can bus data from elithion? I'm looking
for something reasonably priced, say under $200. Anything over that and I'll
just use a 20x4 LCD hooked up to a PIC or something and make it myself.
--
View this message in context:
http://n4.nabble.com/Can-bus-dash-display-tp623728p623728.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.



------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 17:33:41 -0800
From: Travis Gintz <frodus17@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Can bus dash display
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <b44c78160911181733n1f0257c6y4cfbbe31bdafb1a5@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

You can also use the serial connection for the LCD... and parse the data you
want...
any good at programming?

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Collin Kidder <collink@...> wrote:

>
> I'm looking for a dash mounted display which works over CAN bus. I've tried
> google but the results aren't very promising. Everything is either outside
> the country or terribly expensive. I found a German company that wants
> something like 480 euros for their low end model.  I found a couple of
> companies in England that seem to have something like what I want but they
> don't have prices online. I refuse to do business with a company which will
> post a product but not publish the price.
>
> I'm mainly interested in getting data from the Elithion system for display.
> They've recently got a dash display but I don't like it. It's just like 15
> LED's on a board. I'm looking for something LCD.
>
> Does anything exist for displaying can bus data from elithion? I'm looking
> for something reasonably priced, say under $200. Anything over that and
> I'll
> just use a 20x4 LCD hooked up to a PIC or something and make it myself.
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://n4.nabble.com/Can-bus-dash-display-tp623728p623728.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>


--
Travis Gintz
1986 Honda VFR DC conversion
Http://blog.evfr.net/
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Message: 11
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 18:01:44 -0800
From: "Richard Furniss" <rfurniss1@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place
	 -Businessmodel discussion...
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <70075D0B070A4D4697E1867560168981@richard01>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

So what it comes down to is, we lease the batteries, person #1 drives the car
10K per year and #2 person drives his car 50K per year.

Person #1 batteries will last the 5 years and person #2 will kill his pack in 2
years. You can see why there needs to be a pay per mile in the mix. The
batteries are a energy storage unit that needs to be paid for, I don't mind
paying for using the energy storage unit as long as it fair. Somebody needs to
make a reasonable profit for building and supplying me (us) the batteries.

If the battery lease and mileage charge cost more than gasoline then the dealers
will have a lot of Leaf's on there lot because nobody is going to buy them.

The other thing is road tax, asphalt, painted lines, stop signs and traffic
lights pop up every time you buy gas, if you want the traffic lights to keep
working we need to find a fair way to pay for them.



   If you listen to Shai Agasi describe the Better Place Model... Even if
   you charge at home (or anyplace else) you still will get charged for
   the miles you use.  If you charge at home, you will get money back for
   the electricity you supplied, but still get charged per mile.

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Message: 12
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 20:12:17 -0600
From: Morgan LaMoore <morganl@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Can bus dash display
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <4230c7190911181812s44bcae8fia5a19f283b7613fe@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

The problem is software: who's going to write the custom software to
interface their display to the Elithion system?

If you're capable of it, I recommend just building it yourself.

-Morgan LaMoore

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 6:09 PM, Collin Kidder <collink@...> wrote:

>
> I'm looking for a dash mounted display which works over CAN bus. I've tried
> google but the results aren't very promising. Everything is either outside
> the country or terribly expensive. I found a German company that wants
> something like 480 euros for their low end model.  I found a couple of
> companies in England that seem to have something like what I want but they
> don't have prices online. I refuse to do business with a company which will
> post a product but not publish the price.
>
> I'm mainly interested in getting data from the Elithion system for display.
> They've recently got a dash display but I don't like it. It's just like 15
> LED's on a board. I'm looking for something LCD.
>
> Does anything exist for displaying can bus data from elithion? I'm looking
> for something reasonably priced, say under $200. Anything over that and
> I'll
> just use a 20x4 LCD hooked up to a PIC or something and make it myself.
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://n4.nabble.com/Can-bus-dash-display-tp623728p623728.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
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Message: 13
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 21:55:41 -0500
From: "Thor Johnson" <tjohnson@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ESD plastic?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <12E11415AF215A43A94A68630C6C4AFB24D2@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Ok.  I was just wanting to be sure.  I've been in electronics (optical
networks,
medical devices, small micros) for years, and I've seen the smallest
bzzt fry a 250M
prototype days before a trade show and a large ZOT! that appeared to
have no effect
except 6 months later, the laser's temperature controller would go
unstable after 20
hrs of operation with the only solution being "replace the opamp."

I dinna wanna risk frying a battery at a random time in the future just
because I put a
"pretty" finger-proof cover over the top.

Does anybody make silvered plexiglass (or lexan or...) sheets?

Thank you,
Thor Johnson



-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On
Behalf Of Elithion

Thor Johnson wrote:
>
> ... covers for my battery pack... using the eLithion BMS with its bare
> boards mounted topside... static buildup issue....
>

The cell board's component side faces the cell. On the outer side,
pretty
much all there is is a ground plane, directly connected to the negative
terminal of the cell through a very low inductance path. Any ESD will
flow
directly into the cell. For a prismatic cell board, the barrel of the
ring
terminal connected to the negative cell terminal is the most protruding
item, so that is all that your cover can touch; it cannot touch the pads
for
the wires coming out of the cell board.
http://liionbms.com/php/prismatic_cell_boards.php#Mech%20specs Picture
I appreciate your wish to treat the cell boards with TLC, but I think
you'll
find that they are quite robust.

D'de
Davide Andrea


-----
Davide Andrea
http://liionbms.com/php/index.php Elithion




------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 22:19:22 -0500
From: Roger Heuckeroth <rheuckeroth@...>
Subject: [EVDL] Optimum A123 Racing Pack
To: "ev@... Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <F9BA0F71-00FA-4122-9936-B600ABF5C85D@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes

I was thinking about what would be the ideal drag racing battery pack
for my set up.  I have a Warp 11 and a Z1K-HV.  A 20kW lithium battery
pack is on order which is optimized towards range, not power.

If I wanted decided to get a second "drag racing pack", what would the
ideal parameters be for such a pack.  As I understand it the Warp
motor should be limited to about 160-170V.  Got this from multiple
sources, so is there any value in getting a battery pack that produces
more than 1000 amps at 170V?

A123 cells seam like the gold standard for high power output.  As I
understand it the A123 26650 Cell can put out 70 Amps continuous and
120 A (for 10 sec).  I'm sure the voltage probably sags down to about
2.5 V/cell at 70 Amps, so I figure a 15P68S pack is needed to put out
1000 A at 170V.  That's 1020 cells, and even if I can get them for $5/
each thats still $5,100 + BMS.  I know others have spent way more, but
I'm not sure I want to race that bad:^)

The new A123 32113 cells look very interesting.  I assume they are
about a 10Ah cell.  If so, and they can put out 30C like their smaller
counterpart, then you would only need 4P68S to get the same
performance. That would only be 272 cells, but as far as I can tell
they are unoptanium at this point.

Anybody have any thoughts along these lines.



------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 22:26:51 -0500
From: Roger Heuckeroth <rheuckeroth@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ESD plastic?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <EDDE51EC-C6C0-4996-A202-41C50727B377@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes

Try this:

http://www.boedeker.com/pc-300_p.htm


On Nov 18, 2009, at 9:55 PM, Thor Johnson wrote:

> Ok.  I was just wanting to be sure.  I've been in electronics (optical
> networks,
> medical devices, small micros) for years, and I've seen the smallest
> bzzt fry a 250M
> prototype days before a trade show and a large ZOT! that appeared to
> have no effect
> except 6 months later, the laser's temperature controller would go
> unstable after 20
> hrs of operation with the only solution being "replace the opamp."
>
> I dinna wanna risk frying a battery at a random time in the future
> just
> because I put a
> "pretty" finger-proof cover over the top.
>
> Does anybody make silvered plexiglass (or lexan or...) sheets?
>
> Thank you,
> Thor Johnson
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On
> Behalf Of Elithion
>
> Thor Johnson wrote:
>>
>> ... covers for my battery pack... using the eLithion BMS with its
>> bare
>> boards mounted topside... static buildup issue....
>>
>
> The cell board's component side faces the cell. On the outer side,
> pretty
> much all there is is a ground plane, directly connected to the
> negative
> terminal of the cell through a very low inductance path. Any ESD will
> flow
> directly into the cell. For a prismatic cell board, the barrel of the
> ring
> terminal connected to the negative cell terminal is the most
> protruding
> item, so that is all that your cover can touch; it cannot touch the
> pads
> for
> the wires coming out of the cell board.
> http://liionbms.com/php/prismatic_cell_boards.php#Mech%20specs Picture
> I appreciate your wish to treat the cell boards with TLC, but I think
> you'll
> find that they are quite robust.
>
> D'de
> Davide Andrea
>
>
> -----
> Davide Andrea
> http://liionbms.com/php/index.php Elithion
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



------------------------------

Message: 16
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 21:47:13 -0600
From: Morgan LaMoore <morganl@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Optimum A123 Racing Pack
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <4230c7190911181947t6a574af2o3611cefe390e902f@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

That sounds about right (2.5V/cell, 170V under max sag, 1000/70 in parallel)

Where do you plan on getting your cells? I guess for drag racing the
e-bay cells might be OK?

-Morgan LaMoore

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 9:19 PM, Roger Heuckeroth
<rheuckeroth@...> wrote:
> I was thinking about what would be the ideal drag racing battery pack
> for my set up. ?I have a Warp 11 and a Z1K-HV. ?A 20kW lithium battery
> pack is on order which is optimized towards range, not power.
>
> If I wanted decided to get a second "drag racing pack", what would the
> ideal parameters be for such a pack. ?As I understand it the Warp
> motor should be limited to about 160-170V. ?Got this from multiple
> sources, so is there any value in getting a battery pack that produces
> more than 1000 amps at 170V?
>
> A123 cells seam like the gold standard for high power output. ?As I
> understand it the A123 26650 Cell can put out 70 Amps continuous and
> 120 A (for 10 sec). ?I'm sure the voltage probably sags down to about
> 2.5 V/cell at 70 Amps, so I figure a 15P68S pack is needed to put out
> 1000 A at 170V. ?That's 1020 cells, and even if I can get them for $5/
> each thats still $5,100 + BMS. ?I know others have spent way more, but
> I'm not sure I want to race that bad:^)
>
> The new A123 32113 cells look very interesting. ?I assume they are
> about a 10Ah cell. ?If so, and they can put out 30C like their smaller
> counterpart, then you would only need 4P68S to get the same
> performance. That would only be 272 cells, but as far as I can tell
> they are unoptanium at this point.
>
> Anybody have any thoughts along these lines.
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>



------------------------------

Message: 17
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 19:49:32 -0800
From: David Nelson <gizmoev@...>
Subject: [EVDL] Slightly OT: Rust prevention was Re: Start up a RENT
	 YOUR PACK OF BATTERIES store
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <c5b2f1dc0911181949o30aa6b16l16d0f71d7abe74ac@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

When I was a kid we lived on Majuro in the Marshal Islands in the Pacific
Ocean just north of the equator. (You can find it on Google Earth.) Every
time we bought a new pickup it went through Guam and was taken to the Zebart
undercoating shop and they did basically the same thing that Dennis
described. We could actually get over 5 years out of a pickup! By
comparison, a non-undercoated pickup would literally rust out in 2 years. I
remember my Dad talking about a tiny rust spot he saw one evening on the
bumper of the pickup. By the next morning there was a hole clear through the
bumper that you could see through! Undercoating does help.


--
David D. Nelson
http://evalbum.com/1328
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Message: 18
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 20:51:17 -0700
From: Bill Dube <billdube@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Optimum A123 Racing Pack
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <20091119035127.651C4194E82@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

You need to look at the KillaCycle web page.
http://www.killacycle.com/photos/battery-assembly-110s-x-9p/

Then you need to upgrade to a Z2K-HV. ;-)

Each cell will put out about 130 to 135 amps at room temperature
without sagging below half open circuit voltage. (OCV) The Zilla HV
will be happy at 375 volts (or less) input voltage. Unless you want
to be clever about removing "surface charge" before connection to the
controller, you would want to set the fully-charged voltage for the
pack at 375 (or less.) Thus, you would want 375/3.75 = 100 cells in series.

For 1000 amps, you would want 1000/130 = 8 cells in parallel. (If you
install heaters, or are willing to warm up the cells by multiple runs
in a short period, you can possibly go with fewer cells in parallel.)

Of course, if you are plunking down the cash for that pack, you
should definitely upgrade to a Z2K-HV and build a pack to take the
full 1800 amp input current. This would be 13 or 14 cells in parallel.

Bill Dube'

At 08:19 PM 11/18/2009, you wrote:
>I was thinking about what would be the ideal drag racing battery pack
>for my set up.  I have a Warp 11 and a Z1K-HV.  A 20kW lithium battery
>pack is on order which is optimized towards range, not power.
>
>If I wanted decided to get a second "drag racing pack", what would the
>ideal parameters be for such a pack.  As I understand it the Warp
>motor should be limited to about 160-170V.  Got this from multiple
>sources, so is there any value in getting a battery pack that produces
>more than 1000 amps at 170V?
>
>A123 cells seam like the gold standard for high power output.  As I
>understand it the A123 26650 Cell can put out 70 Amps continuous and
>120 A (for 10 sec).  I'm sure the voltage probably sags down to about
>2.5 V/cell at 70 Amps, so I figure a 15P68S pack is needed to put out
>1000 A at 170V.  That's 1020 cells, and even if I can get them for $5/
>each thats still $5,100 + BMS.  I know others have spent way more, but
>I'm not sure I want to race that bad:^)
>
>The new A123 32113 cells look very interesting.  I assume they are
>about a 10Ah cell.  If so, and they can put out 30C like their smaller
>counterpart, then you would only need 4P68S to get the same
>performance. That would only be 272 cells, but as far as I can tell
>they are unoptanium at this point.
>
>Anybody have any thoughts along these lines.
>
>_______________________________________________
>General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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------------------------------

Message: 19
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 23:16:08 -0500 (EST)
From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ESD plastic?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <22310539.1258604169074.JavaMail.root@...>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

From: Thor Johnson
> Ok. I was just wanting to be sure. I've been in electronics (optical
> networks, medical devices, small micros) for years, and I've seen the
> smallest bzzt fry a 250M prototype days before a trade show and a
> large ZOT! that appeared to have no effect except 6 months later,
> the laser's temperature controller would go unstable after 20
> hrs of operation with the only solution being "replace the opamp."
>
> I dinna wanna risk frying a battery at a random time in the future
> just because I put a "pretty" finger-proof cover over the top.

I think your concerns are justified. Engineers with many years of experience
still get surprised by electrostatic, noise, and environmental  problems. "That
ought to be good enough..." Nope! Things fail in completely different ways than
you expect!

Naked PC boards in a car are just asking for trouble. In many cases, they were
designed by someone with very little experience, and simply don't hold up in an
automotive environment. It's also likely that that little or no testing was one
(because the naive builder thinks it isn't necessary).

>Does anybody make silvered plexiglass (or lexan or...) sheets?

If it's silvered (or more likely, aluminized), then it will be conductive and
not very transparent. You'd be better off with a metal sheet.

--
Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the one who is
doing it.    --    Chinese proverb
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net



------------------------------

Message: 20
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 20:20:14 -0800
From: cowtown@...
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OK you-all create an alternative to the car
	 computer
To: ev@...
Message-ID:
	 <20091118202014.ywe2uwuw0kcosos4-pbjgbja@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes";
	 format="flowed"

<<< Or CAN we avoid it and simplify the wiring in the EV, for example
under hood
to the trunk only needs 4 conductors. and 6 to the front lights. Everything
else is under the hood or in the dash
except Pack wiring. (I put pack wiring in two inch Aluminised  Exhaust
Tubing under the cabin floor.) >>>

You CAN only simplify the wiring if you plan on doing without the
modern conveniences of ABS, airbags, security, and all the other items
dependent on on-board intelligence. If you want "modern", you have to
work modern, i.e. get hardware and do some programming to interface
with the existing system to emulate a running ICE. It has been done by
others on the list, but they weren't your average grease monkeys. If
you can't do (or pay someone to do) that, just convert something
older, simpler, and less "intelligent" to start with.



------------------------------

Message: 21
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 04:21:37 +0000 (UTC)
From: wwwmail@...
Subject: [EVDL] GEM, Suzuki, misc
To: ev@...
Message-ID:
	
<974945516.4362441258604497589.JavaMail.root@....\
net>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"



My first post - just learning - trying to learn - let me know if this is
appropriate for this forum (and host can remove this first line:>:>)





1.? I just rebuilt a GEM - Global Electric Vehicle (they seem to seel them from
Gov Excess so I got a good deal).? It uses 6 heavy duty batteries, is considered
a LSV but am having trouble with toning down the road vibrations fromt he stiff
frame and shocks.? I went to replace 2 rears (it is a dual reas shock system)
with 1967 VW shocks and is much better.? Has anyone done the same to the
fronts?? $21 per shock is better replacing my 12" wheels with?new 14" tires/rims


2.? Has anyone converted a 2000 Suzuki Grand Vitarra from combustion to battery
and if so, the type, quantity, and component motor set-up?? I have one that is
having the engine removed and the carcass scapped so wanted to take this on as a
winter project.



3.? Has anyone heard any more truth or folly?regarding magnetic repulse
technology to enhance battery use?



-Anita
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Message: 22
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 01:31:35 -0500
From: Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Slightly OT: Rust prevention was Re: Start up a
	 RENT YOUR PACK OF BATTERIES store
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <2b4886ce0911182231v7a7cccbep1e3b4cbde9b458b@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 10:49 PM, David Nelson <gizmoev@...> wrote:

> When I was a kid we lived on Majuro in the Marshal Islands in the Pacific
> Ocean just north of the equator. (You can find it on Google Earth.) Every
> time we bought a new pickup it went through Guam and was taken to the
> Zebart
> undercoating shop and they did basically the same thing that Dennis
> described. We could actually get over 5 years out of a pickup! By
> comparison, a non-undercoated pickup would literally rust out in 2 years. I
> remember my Dad talking about a tiny rust spot he saw one evening on the
> bumper of the pickup. By the next morning there was a hole clear through
> the
> bumper that you could see through! Undercoating does help.
>
>
> --
> David D. Nelson
> http://evalbum.com/1328
> ===================== Zebart, oh yes I remember that===============

David, in the mid sixties when I was in High School and Community College,
My Dad liked AMC autos, we had about four. And local Zebart shops did after
market undercoating with zinc loaded wax, then AMC made Zebarting a standard
upgrade and did it to every car they built at the factory.  Back then other
cars rusted and so we said, "On a quiet night you can hear a Ford rust!"
  (;-))     And, "Chevrolet, Chevrolet, pick it up? No, let it lay..."
Regards,
      Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
        Phone (863) 289 - 0690
"We provide Mentoring, Small Group Instruction, and Hands-On training for
the EV Technicians: Building, Converting, Repairing, and Servicing the
Electric Vehicles of Today, and the Future."
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Message: 23
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 01:42:31 -0500
From: Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ESD plastic?
To: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>, Electric Vehicle Discussion
	 List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <2b4886ce0911182242s34c1ba75o17045aed675907b0@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 11:16 PM, Lee Hart <leeahart@...> wrote:

> From: Thor Johnson
> > Ok. I was just wanting to be sure. I've been in electronics (optical
> > networks, medical devices, small micros) for years, and I've seen the
> > smallest bzzt fry a 250M prototype days before a trade show and a
> > large ZOT! that appeared to have no effect except 6 months later,
> > the laser's temperature controller would go unstable after 20
> > hrs of operation with the only solution being "replace the opamp."
> >
> > I dinna wanna risk frying a battery at a random time in the future
> > just because I put a "pretty" finger-proof cover over the top.
>
> I think your concerns are justified. Engineers with many years of
> experience still get surprised by electrostatic, noise, and environmental
>  problems. "That ought to be good enough..." Nope! Things fail in completely
> different ways than you expect!
>
> Naked PC boards in a car are just asking for trouble. In many cases, they
> were designed by someone with very little experience, and simply don't hold
> up in an automotive environment. It's also likely that that little or no
> testing was one (because the naive builder thinks it isn't necessary).
>
> >Does anybody make silvered plexiglass (or lexan or...) sheets?
>
> If it's silvered (or more likely, aluminized), then it will be conductive
> and not very transparent. You'd be better off with a metal sheet.
>
> --
> Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the one who is
> doing it.    --    Chinese proverb
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> ====================Hey BMS designers and builders take note.============

Lee, you said, "Naked PC boards in a car are just asking for trouble. In
many cases, they were designed by someone with very little experience, and
simply don't hold up in an automotive environment."

So why don't more builders spray on some "Conformal Coating?" It even comes
in a spray can...Protects unit from acid mist or fumes from the pack and
environmental moisture too.

Regards.
     Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
        Phone (863) 289 - 0690
"We provide Mentoring, Small Group Instruction, and Hands-On training for
the
  EV Technicians: Building, Converting, Repairing, and Servicing the
  Electric Vehicles of Today, and the Future."
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Message: 24
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 02:08:09 -0500
From: Dennis Miles <dmiles33810@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OK you-all create an alternative to the car
	 computer
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <2b4886ce0911182308r6ecdda46ja7fc2e2050fc17ac@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 11:20 PM, <cowtown@...> wrote:

> <<< Or CAN we avoid it and simplify the wiring in the EV, for example
> under hood
> to the trunk only needs 4 conductors. and 6 to the front lights. Everything
> else is under the hood or in the dash
> except Pack wiring. (I put pack wiring in two inch Aluminised  Exhaust
> Tubing under the cabin floor.) >>>
>
> You CAN only simplify the wiring if you plan on doing without the
> modern conveniences of ABS, airbags, security, and all the other items
> dependent on on-board intelligence. If you want "modern", you have to
> work modern, i.e. get hardware and do some programming to interface
> with the existing system to emulate a running ICE. It has been done by
> others on the list, but they weren't your average grease monkeys. If
> you can't do (or pay someone to do) that, just convert something
> older, simpler, and less "intelligent" to start with.
> ========================= I want a "Universal Solution" ===============
>
Are ABS unit controllers, Airbags, and security ECT. Really that different
in different cars, or could a Universal EV computer to handle those and all
the other functions be designed and built for a price less than the car
computer and ICE computer can be sold for at salvage? Or even a hundred
more?  ($300 to $500) If they are radically different how about a plug
in identity module for each make?
For the next five years conversions are going to be big business, then EV
Service will pass it by as used EV from Ford, Chevy, Toyota, Honda, ect.
come into the market. (My Prediction.)

Regards,
     Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
        Phone (863) 289 - 0690
"We provide Mentoring, Small Group Instruction, and Hands-On training for
  the EV Technicians: Building, Converting, Repairing, and Servicing
the Electric Vehicles of Today, and the Future."
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Message: 25
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 07:55:18 -0500
From: Collin Kidder <collink@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Can bus dash display
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <4B054036.9030008@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Yes, the elithion can output via rs232 as well but it's in a braindead
format. It seems that the output is in ascii text instead of binary.
That means that sending 0x32 actually takes two bytes ("3" "2") instead
of one. I don't really like that particular design decision. However, I
might still go that route as it's simpler than using CAN. I've got a
couple of arduinos laying around. I could use one of those if I go
rs232. To go to CAN I'd need to switch to a PIC18 or PIC24 chip and
build something around that. I can program as well as do electronics so
I suppose it looks as if I'll be making this myself. It'll build more
experience I guess... Though, if I went with CAN I could buy up
multiples of all the parts and sell them too. I don't know how many
people would be interested in an rs232 version but a CAN version might
be of interest to others. (And not for 480 euros!)

On 11/18/2009 8:33 PM, Travis Gintz wrote:
> You can also use the serial connection for the LCD... and parse the data you
> want...
> any good at programming?
>
> On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Collin Kidder<collink@...>  wrote:
>
>
>> I'm looking for a dash mounted display which works over CAN bus. I've tried
>> google but the results aren't very promising. Everything is either outside
>> the country or terribly expensive. I found a German company that wants
>> something like 480 euros for their low end model.  I found a couple of
>> companies in England that seem to have something like what I want but they
>> don't have prices online. I refuse to do business with a company which will
>> post a product but not publish the price.
>>
>> I'm mainly interested in getting data from the Elithion system for display.
>> They've recently got a dash display but I don't like it. It's just like 15
>> LED's on a board. I'm looking for something LCD.
>>
>> Does anything exist for displaying can bus data from elithion? I'm looking
>> for something reasonably priced, say under $200. Anything over that and
>> I'll
>> just use a 20x4 LCD hooked up to a PIC or something and make it myself.
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://n4.nabble.com/Can-bus-dash-display-tp623728p623728.html
>> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
>> Nabble.com.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>>
>
>



------------------------------

Message: 26
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 08:04:09 -0500
From: Dave Davidson <davetex99@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost - Better Place
	 -Businessmodel discussion...
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID:
	 <36b5c54c0911190504i24e2a1f8ya11656d5b1c87af7@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

That would be a deal killer for me. From what I've read on lithium
batteries, their calendar life takes its toll long before the cycle
life. I would prefer to just buy my batteries and be done with it. If
I lease, I'm still paying for the batteries plus someone else's
overhead and profit. If they want to make it an option, that's fine,
but don't make it mandatory. When I buy my gas car, I don't lease any
part of it and don't want to on my EV either.

Dave

On 11/18/09, Richard Furniss <rfurniss1@...> wrote:
> So what it comes down to is, we lease the batteries, person #1 drives the
> car 10K per year and #2 person drives his car 50K per year.
>
> Person #1 batteries will last the 5 years and person #2 will kill his pack
> in 2 years. You can see why there needs to be a pay per mile in the mix. The
> batteries are a energy storage unit that needs to be paid for, I don't mind
> paying for using the energy storage unit as long as it fair. Somebody needs
> to make a reasonable profit for building and supplying me (us) the
> batteries.
>
> If the battery lease and mileage charge cost more than gasoline then the
> dealers will have a lot of Leaf's on there lot because nobody is going to
> buy them.
>
> The other thing is road tax, asphalt, painted lines, stop signs and traffic
> lights pop up every time you buy gas, if you want the traffic lights to keep
> working we need to find a fair way to pay for them.
>
>
>
>   If you listen to Shai Agasi describe the Better Place Model... Even if
>   you charge at home (or anyplace else) you still will get charged for
>   the miles you use.  If you charge at home, you will get money back for
>   the electricity you supplied, but still get charged per mile.
>
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> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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>

--
Sent from my mobile device



------------------------------

Message: 27
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 08:08:07 -0500
From: "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Slightly OT: Rust prevention was Re: Start up a
	 RENTYOUR PACK OF BATTERIES store
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Message-ID: <5C4EAD30E73D412C826EBBD93D500D82@adminwlzisp2uc>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	 reply-type=original


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dennis Miles" <dmiles33810@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 1:31 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Slightly OT: Rust prevention was Re: Start up a RENTYOUR
PACK OF BATTERIES store


> On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 10:49 PM, David Nelson <gizmoev@...> wrote:
>
>> When I was a kid we lived on Majuro in the Marshal Islands in the Pacific
>> Ocean just north of the equator. (You can find it on Google Earth.) Every
>> time we bought a new pickup it went through Guam and was taken to the
>> Zebart
>> undercoating shop and they did basically the same thing that Dennis
>> described. We could actually get over 5 years out of a pickup! By
>> comparison, a non-undercoated pickup would literally rust out in 2 years.
>> I
>> remember my Dad talking about a tiny rust spot he saw one evening on the
>> bumper of the pickup. By the next morning there was a hole clear through
>> the
>> bumper that you could see through! Undercoating does help.

    And VW Rabbits, too! Great car to convert, sturdy, handy aftermarket
parts, etc. But RUST BUCKETS! The #$%^ windshields leaked in the Drivers
side in particular, pissing water down behind the dash, attacking the door
posts, you had to LIFT the door up, to close it! The fuse box, or strip got
wet, causing endless electrical issues, Oh, same for older Jettas,
too!When's the L:AST time ya saw a Rabbit in places where there is weather?
Rumer has it that there are STILL Rabbits, etc,Out West? In that I have a 20
year old Jetta is no small miricle, It WAS undercoated and musta led a
charmed life in it's early years?Well for that matter any OLDER Datsuns' The
White Zombie woulda been mulch 20 YEARS ago, had it been born on the Least
Coast!Sure miss those simple, computerless cars! Hard around here to find
basic, simple , clean doner cars.

     Seeya

     Bob
>> --
>> David D. Nelson
>> http://evalbum.com/1328
>> ===================== Zebart, oh yes I remember that===============
>
> David, in the mid sixties when I was in High School and Community College,
> My Dad liked AMC autos, we had about four. And local Zebart shops did
> after
> market undercoating with zinc loaded wax, then AMC made Zebarting a
> standard
> upgrade and did it to every car they built at the factory.  Back then
> other
> cars rusted and so we said, "On a quiet night you can hear a Ford rust!"
> (;-))     And, "Chevrolet, Chevrolet, pick it up? No, let it lay..."
> Regards,
>     Dennis Miles,    (Director / CEO)
> Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
> Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA
>       Phone (863) 289 - 0690
> "We provide Mentoring, Small Group Instruction, and Hands-On training for
> the EV Technicians: Building, Converting, Repairing, and Servicing the
> Electric Vehicles of Today, and the Future."
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
>
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> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



------------------------------

Message: 28
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 09:11:14 -0500
From: Roger Heuckeroth <rheuckeroth@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Optimum A123 Racing Pack
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <F011DC30-7BA8-4765-9214-D701D605A7FA@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes

I can see how higher voltage would help a Z2K with series /parallel
shifting dual motor set up, but if you are running a standard single
Warp 11 and are limited by the volts that the motor can take, would
you really gain anything by having a 375V pack.  I know that would put
you in a class A3 instead of B.


On Nov 18, 2009, at 10:51 PM, Bill Dube wrote:

> You need to look at the KillaCycle web page.
> http://www.killacycle.com/photos/battery-assembly-110s-x-9p/
>
> Then you need to upgrade to a Z2K-HV. ;-)
>
> Each cell will put out about 130 to 135 amps at room temperature
> without sagging below half open circuit voltage. (OCV) The Zilla HV
> will be happy at 375 volts (or less) input voltage. Unless you want
> to be clever about removing "surface charge" before connection to the
> controller, you would want to set the fully-charged voltage for the
> pack at 375 (or less.) Thus, you would want 375/3.75 = 100 cells in
> series.
>
> For 1000 amps, you would want 1000/130 = 8 cells in parallel. (If you
> install heaters, or are willing to warm up the cells by multiple runs
> in a short period, you can possibly go with fewer cells in parallel.)
>
> Of course, if you are plunking down the cash for that pack, you
> should definitely upgrade to a Z2K-HV and build a pack to take the
> full 1800 amp input current. This would be 13 or 14 cells in parallel.
>
> Bill Dube'
>
> At 08:19 PM 11/18/2009, you wrote:
>> I was thinking about what would be the ideal drag racing battery pack
>> for my set up.  I have a Warp 11 and a Z1K-HV.  A 20kW lithium
>> battery
>> pack is on order which is optimized towards range, not power.
>>
>> If I wanted decided to get a second "drag racing pack", what would
>> the
>> ideal parameters be for such a pack.  As I understand it the Warp
>> motor should be limited to about 160-170V.  Got this from multiple
>> sources, so is there any value in getting a battery pack that
>> produces
>> more than 1000 amps at 170V?
>>
>> A123 cells seam like the gold standard for high power output.  As I
>> understand it the A123 26650 Cell can put out 70 Amps continuous and
>> 120 A (for 10 sec).  I'm sure the voltage probably sags down to about
>> 2.5 V/cell at 70 Amps, so I figure a 15P68S pack is needed to put out
>> 1000 A at 170V.  That's 1020 cells, and even if I can get them for
>> $5/
>> each thats still $5,100 + BMS.  I know others have spent way more,
>> but
>> I'm not sure I want to race that bad:^)
>>
>> The new A123 32113 cells look very interesting.  I assume they are
>> about a 10Ah cell.  If so, and they can put out 30C like their
>> smaller
>> counterpart, then you would only need 4P68S to get the same
>> performance. That would only be 272 cells, but as far as I can tell
>> they are unoptanium at this point.
>>
>> Anybody have any thoughts along these lines.
>>
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------------------------------

Message: 29
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 14:18:02 +0000
From: Ole-Egil Hvitmyren <olegil@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Optimum A123 Racing Pack
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
Message-ID: <4B05539A.8050404@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed

Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> I can see how higher voltage would help a Z2K with series /parallel
> shifting dual motor set up, but if you are running a standard single
> Warp 11 and are limited by the volts that the motor can take, would
> you really gain anything by having a 375V pack.  I know that would put
> you in a class A3 instead of B.
>


I thought you wanted 170V after accounting for sag at full load. I think
that's the setup Bill is talking about.

At less than full power the (average) voltage will be limited by the
duty cycle, at full load (controller constantly open) it will be limited
by the battery sag.

If you have a 170V setup and load it to max current it'll look mighty
similar to a 96V setup. Right?

Ole-Egil
--
We'll initialise that PCI bridge when we get there.
http://olegil.amigaos.se/



------------------------------

Message: 30
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 06:24:13 -0800
From: Jeff Shanab <jshanab@...>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost
To: ev@...
Message-ID: <4B05550D.8010002@...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I wonder if we can use the Automotive companies Hybrid batteries as a
comparison.
They are not under the same "stress" and the car generally runs without
them, correct?
If the capacity drops in half, the controller compensates and you get
less MPG, but all the energy comes from the gas so your total range only
drops by a small percent.

Obviously in an EV if half the capacity is gone in 2 years, you are an
unsatisfied customer.
A different pack may mean more performance or more range at a trade of
less life or vica versa. It may be nice to have choices for the customer.

Start with the low cost option and upgrade later?

> From: Martin K
>
>> > it's not apparent that a third party could be legally prevented
>> > from making batteries that work with these cars (physical restrictions
>> > are fixed with a hack saw, basically.) As an example, Lexmark sued a
>> > company that "circumvented" their lock-out for toner cartridges. They
>> > lost the case.
>>
>
> It will depend on what method the manufacturer uses. If they depend on
secrecy, some enterprising "hacker" can figure it out, and sell a clone without
fear of prosecution. But if the manufacturer patented some aspect, they *can*
prosecute to stop it from bein used by others.
>
> Notice that the Toyota Prius has been on the market for over 10 years