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evomech · Evolution: Where Darwin meets Lamarck?
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Evolution Reciprocal Links Anyone?   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #270 of 604 |
Re: [evomech] Re: Evolution Reciprocal Links Anyone?

From: "John Latter" <jorolat@...>
> "Segmentation and Vertebrate Origins" - very interesting stuff
> Cliff and
> from a number of perspectives!
> I've only read as far as the end of The Appendicular Skeleton so
> far - I
> wanted to read it all to gain an overview before making any
> comments...

It's all about one simple thing: simple multiplication of bodies
to form
trains of identical organisms living as one; and a subsequent slow
process
of loss and distortion within those trains. This gross morphology
theory is
an extrapolation from morphological data. If it's true it will
mutually
support theories about other aspects of organisms.

>...the evolution of snakes is a 'sideways step' in a similar
>manner to
> that of flatfish.

I have snakes evolving much earlier than presently thought, maybe
even in the Cambrian. This ancestor might have limbs (losing limbs
is
easy) but most importantly it would have a long axial skeleton, so
that snakes can evolve without the addition of new axial segments.
Snake can escape the mud which mires and entombs both fishes and
tetrapods, so I have no problem postulating unknown very early
snakes. An arboreal habitat is another point against
fossilization.

> from the
> perspective of an internal evolutionary mechanism, the
> cytochrome c info
> found in Dayhoff's Atlas of Protein Structure and Function is
> particularly relevant. Another way of putting it, is that snakes
> may be
> 'an exception that proves the rule' and consequently do not
> /initially/
> have to be 'accounted for' to any great degree.

I suspect that this info fits with a variety of theories. For me
the
internal constraint on the evolution of gross morphology is simply
that
skeletal evolution doesn't create new parts or segments; it can
only
modify a complex primitive structure through loss and distortion.
The formation of this progenitor was a one-time pre-Cambrian
event.

> On a more immediate and practical level I would like to put your
> site on
> my "Reciprocal Links" and "Evolinks" pages. It doesn't matter
> (from my
> point of view) that you haven't got a links page - if you want
> me to go
> ahead just send a couple of lines describing your site and I'll
> add it
> as soon as I can.

Thanks, any link is appreciated. I'll have to think about the
ring,
because I plan to do something different to promote the article.

Thanks for reading the thing.

Cliff




Mon Dec 26, 2005 10:46 pm

cliff0000000
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Message #270 of 604 |
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"Segmentation and Vertebrate Origins" - very interesting stuff Cliff and from a number of perspectives! I've only read as far as the end of The Appendicular...
John Latter
jorolat
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Dec 26, 2005
5:12 pm

From: "John Latter" <jorolat@...> ... It's all about one simple thing: simple multiplication of bodies to form trains of identical organisms living as...
Cliff Lundberg
cliff0000000
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Dec 26, 2005
10:46 pm

I think I've got the basic idea Cliff, I'm now up to the end of 'Verification' and one statement which (rightly or wrongly) struck a chord is: "Since the...
John Latter
jorolat
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Dec 27, 2005
9:22 am

From: "John Latter" <jorolat@...> ... The Darwinian paradigm of gradually increasing complexity keeps people from giving my model consideration. But it's...
Cliff Lundberg
cliff0000000
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Dec 27, 2005
1:00 pm

It's 'good fun' to read something original too Cliff! I hadn't considered linking implying support. As far as my website is concerned my initial motivation was...
John Latter
jorolat
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Dec 28, 2005
8:35 am

From: "John Latter" <jorolat@...> ... I've been kicked off of some evolution forums,as a sneaky creationist, so I try to avoid association with ...
Cliff Lundberg
cliff0000000
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Dec 29, 2005
1:22 am

... I just don't get involved in creationist arguments (I see religion as a function of cultural upbringing). ... I had a problem even before reading your...
John Latter
jorolat
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Dec 29, 2005
11:36 am

From: "John Latter" <jorolat@...> ... I hate re-writing. I wish I could find a cheap editor, or people to trade critiques with. Cliff...
Cliff Lundberg
cliff0000000
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Dec 29, 2005
12:16 pm

... I'm not keen on re-writing either although its really inertia talking - once I get into it then hopefully enthusiasm will buoy me along! Besides, its...
John Latter
jorolat
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Dec 29, 2005
7:14 pm

From: "John Latter" <jorolat@...> ... Basically you have the environment effecting changes in the genotype, in a manner more direct & Lamarckian than...
Cliff Lundberg
cliff0000000
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Dec 30, 2005
2:57 am

... Well, I don't think there's a need for an 'internal mechanism' as such. The concept was initially developed from 'anomalies' found below the level at which...
John Latter
jorolat
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Dec 30, 2005
9:55 am

From: "John Latter" <jorolat@...> ... I don't know. A friend of mine ran a Yahoo group for 5 years and then gave it up, but he converted it to...
Cliff Lundberg
cliff0000000
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Dec 30, 2005
10:14 am

... Oops! thought you meant the internet in general & not just Yahoo Groups :) ... I could just quickly skim through it and make a few bland comments. While...
John Latter
jorolat
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Dec 30, 2005
3:07 pm

... It's been an interesting read Cliff although the depth of knowledge is way beyond me! I began the second reading making notes but quickly realized that...
John Latter
jorolat
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Jan 1, 2006
2:44 pm

From: "John Latter" <jorolat@...> ... Thanks for reading it. The model is basically simple. It's more a matter of having the courage to adopt it than...
Cliff Lundberg
cliff0000000
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Jan 2, 2006
4:01 am

... Well I did feel you were using parabiosis as an example of an already known mechanism rather than an actual mechanism - just wanted to show I was paying...
John Latter
jorolat
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Jan 3, 2006
9:49 am

From: "John Latter" <jorolat@...> ... I'm giving a theoretical history of my protovertebrate, to show how simply it can form through understandable ...
Cliff Lundberg
cliff0000000
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Jan 3, 2006
11:06 am

... I do feel the following is a big step - is there a "why"?: "The evolution of the vertebrate requires additional steps of parabiotic mutation. The segmented...
John Latter
jorolat
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Jan 4, 2006
7:13 am

From: "John Latter" <jorolat@...> ... You mean, why would I propose such model? Or, why should things have to have happened this way? Because it's the...
Cliff Lundberg
cliff0000000
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Jan 4, 2006
12:32 pm

... Er, I was trying to see it from the point of view of when it happened rather than from today's perspective - why would 5 come together in the manner you...
John Latter
jorolat
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Jan 5, 2006
6:36 am

... I posted before breakfast Cliff (gotta lot to do today) & had forgotten that the "The evolution of the vertebrate requires additional steps of parabiotic...
John Latter
jorolat
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Jan 5, 2006
7:13 am

From: "John Latter" <jorolat@...> ... No reason, just happenstance; random mutation. No doubt various patterns of aggregation arose--radial, bilateral, ...
Cliff Lundberg
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Jan 5, 2006
11:40 am

... There's no need to consider 'homeostasis' in your model Cliff - I was just reflecting my own way of looking at things. You say in "Ideal Serial Homology": ...
John Latter
jorolat
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Jan 6, 2006
10:07 am

From: "John Latter" <jorolat@...> ... Sure. ... Thanks, various theories have the skull evolving from a set of vertebrae. The last reference interests me...
Cliff Lundberg
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Jan 7, 2006
12:46 am

... /http://www.natur.cuni.cz/zoologie/vertebrata/R.Cerny/Rolf+Lennart+ME.pdf/ ... Bearing in mind I'm commenting from a position of astonishing ignorance: If...
John Latter
jorolat
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Jan 7, 2006
5:42 pm

From: "John Latter" <jorolat@...> ... Right. You recall my diagram in which the original vertebrate form consists of an arrangement of identical...
Cliff Lundberg
cliff0000000
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Jan 8, 2006
1:23 am

... I see your point. ... I just thought (although it may not be applicable in this instance at all), that when presenting new ideas, people tend to be 'more...
John Latter
jorolat
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Jan 8, 2006
12:29 pm

From: "John Latter" <jorolat@...> ... New theories face a lot of prejudice in favor of the model of gradually increasing complexity evolving without...
Cliff Lundberg
cliff0000000
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Jan 8, 2006
12:49 pm

... The reference to trauma merely indicated the 'route' through which the proposal came into being. With regard to your earlier comments, the basic idea is at...
John Latter
jorolat
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Jan 8, 2006
2:24 pm
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