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Using XP just for planning   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #138131 of 152305 |
Re: [XP] Using XP just for planning


On Mon, 2008-01-14 at 09:42 +0800, elan J wrote:

> Hmm makes me wonder.. does XP works on a fixed cost project ?

It depends on what you mean by "work". If you mean, will it help you get
the most value for the money spent, yes. If you mean, will it let you
know as early as possible if you're not gonna meet all of the goals (if
that's the case), again, yes.

If you mean, will it cause the impossible to suddenly become possible,
no (well, unless it was only very slightly impossible :-). If you mean,
will it enable you to delude yourself into thinking you can do too much
work in too little time, again, no.

If you mean, will it give you a magic wand, to make the people who want
more done than time and resources allow stop being unreasonable...
maybe. It depends on whether they're prepared to face reality, and even
more importantly, on _how_ they're prepared to face it. Further
exposition below.

> In a fixed cost project, PM want to do the project on time and on budget, so
> PM tends to give pressure to us developers to finish things quickly.
> Not to mention the customer who want changes here and there also, makes us
> want to scream out to the PM, we need more time. This puts the PM in a
> dilemma because he need it to finish on time and on budget since it is a
> fixed cost project, but at the same time the software need to accomodate the
> business values. A real headache for us developers, cause the pressure comes
> from both ways, the boss and the customer.
>

Yep. Welcome to every fixed price contract I've ever heard of. A news
flash, though: most of the time, the people applying the pressure
_already_ _know_ they aren't going to get everything they ask for. They
just don't know any other way to get as much as possible. The logic is
simple (albeit incomplete and incorrect): the harder they push, the
harder the programmers will work, and the more will get done.

I had a paragraph here detailing the bad things about all this, but we
all know them, so I deleted it.

Fixed price, fixed scope contracts are a stupid (but common) way to do
business for software development. They're popular because financial
people are comfortable with them, but no one really develops software
that way; it's just that instead of building the unknowns into the the
contract (ala optional scope contracts;
http://www.jarn.com/about/OptionalScopeContracts.pdf), many
organizations prefer to get more or less the same effect via ad-hoc
methods involving lots of posturing, raised blood pressures, and
"contract amendments", "follow on contracts", etc.

Even if you can't get the nirvana of a sane contract structure, XP lets
you deliver something they'll be much happier with. It still won't be
everything they want (it seems to be a law of nature that fixed price
contracts always have excessive scope), but it'll be a subset they're
much happier with. Many times, they'll decide the subset is enough; if
it isn't, then they've got a software partner they can trust, so the
"maintenence contract" or "supplemental work contract" or "contract
extension" or whatever will go smoother and happier for everyone.

But _your_ side of that is that you have to be honest enough to tell the
truth, even when it's not what the person you're talking to wants to
hear. Not whine about the truth, but accurately, calmly, and
professionally report your progress, how much the customer can expect to
get from you every time you sit down to plan an iteration, etc.

There are good reasons why the white book talks about "courage". It's
not a joke or "feel good" filler, and it's not easy.

-John

--
John A. Maxwell (jmax@...)

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor
do the children of man experience it as a whole. Avoiding danger is no
safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring
adventure or it is nothing."
- Helen Keller





Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:15 am

jmax315
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Forward
Message #138131 of 152305 |
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... Hallelujah -- no month-long wait for Stories! :-) So is it just the developers that have to wait on practices or do managers/customers have anything rolled...
Joshua Kerievsky
jlk112067
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Jan 16, 2008
12:44 am

... It depends on what you mean by "work". If you mean, will it help you get the most value for the money spent, yes. If you mean, will it let you know as...
John Maxwell
jmax315
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Jan 14, 2008
4:02 am

Hi Everyone, XP should be able to deliver fixed price contracts on time - as long as the requirements aren't specified in detail, only the 'spirit' of them is...
Liz Sedley
lizsedley
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Jan 14, 2008
12:30 pm

Hi, Thank you everyone for the response. I really appriciate it. As for what Jeff Paton say at XPDay in london, correct me if im wrong, seems like the solution...
elan J
elan100cs
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Jan 15, 2008
11:45 am

... The evidence is that non-agile approaches meet a guarantee of being on time and on budget less than 50% of the time. So, the fixed price "guarantee" is...
Steven Gordon
sfman2k
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Jan 15, 2008
12:43 pm

Hi elanhakim, While I can appreciate why managers would be attracted to the illusion of predictability that comes with fixed price software, like the financial...
Jonathan Rasmusson
rasmus4200
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Jan 15, 2008
12:57 pm

... Yep, but Tom DeMarco has some really good discussion of this point in his book "Slack." When I picked up that book, I didn't expect to gain anything I...
George Dinwiddie
gdinwiddie
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Jan 14, 2008
8:40 pm

Hey Joshua, My first response to this is "HELL YEAH!", but I do have a question. How often do you work with a client that either isn't feeling pain in their...
Dave Rooney
daverooneyca
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Jan 16, 2008
7:00 pm

... Hi Dave -- I'd say that nearly all of our clients have some development / process pain. When management isn't aware of it, we often work to help educate...
Joshua Kerievsky
jlk112067
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Jan 16, 2008
8:10 pm

Stefan, I have used just the planning practices of XP first and I have found them very helpful. In particular, in a situation where everyone is so busy saying ...
Kent Beck
kentlbeck
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Jan 14, 2008
3:52 pm
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