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How is Scrum alienating the eXtreme Programming folks?   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #139415 of 152395 |
(I originally posted this on ScrumDevelopment. A couple
people suggested posting here. --mj)

===================================
I just went to a London XP pub night and met with a hardcore
XP guy who claims to dislike Scrum. This wouldn't be notable
except that it's happened before.

I queried him on what practices he found useful, and it
sounded a lot like Scrum to me, plus the engineering
practices we usually recommend learning ASAP to
avoid technical debt: (TDD, refactoring, continuous
integration, pair programming....). He agreed that
many teams fail to adopt these practices without
a full-time mentor, learning them incrementally
makes sense, and that Scrum is often the path
people take to discover this.

He also agreed with everything we've been
talking about on this group: the importance of
story "done" rather than task hours expended,
getting the customer in the loop, fixed iterations,
retrospectives.... I really couldn't find any
contradiction with Scrum.

As I see it, Scrum is XP's biggest ally. So where
is this resentment coming from?


--mj






Wed Feb 20, 2008 9:43 pm

michaeljames...
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(I originally posted this on ScrumDevelopment. A couple people suggested posting here. --mj) =================================== I just went to a London XP...
Michael James
michaeljames...
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Feb 20, 2008
11:35 pm

Hi Michael, So where is this resentment coming from? Did you ask your pub-mate that question? What did he say? Dale -- Dale Emery, Consultant Inspiring...
Dale Emery
dalehemery
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Feb 20, 2008
11:44 pm

... I tried to explore that but couldn't get to any specifics other than disliking the Excel spreadsheet for burndowns some Scrum trainers give out (which I...
Michael James
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Feb 21, 2008
1:02 pm

... From: "Michael James" <michael@...> To: <extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 3:43 PM Subject: [XP] How is Scrum...
Gary Brown
gb70840
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Feb 21, 2008
1:11 am

Hello, Gary. On Wednesday, February 20, 2008, at 8:10:36 PM, you ... If that were happening, I don't see why it would bother an XP guy, who isn't selling...
Ron Jeffries
RonaldEJeffries
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Feb 21, 2008
1:21 am

... miserably and ... At the risk of sounding anti-Scrum (which I'm not).... ... Yup. and In particular I've seen what its like when it goes horribly, horribly...
Simon Jones
simontcb
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Feb 21, 2008
2:01 pm

Hello, Simon. Very useful comments, thanks. ... Sounds like there's a story there we'd like to hear. It's worth pointing out, however, that a company that does...
Ron Jeffries
RonaldEJeffries
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Feb 21, 2008
2:46 pm

... Joseph gave a talk on Scrum here in Karlsruhe yesterday, and I understood to say that he actually things of Scrum as the XP project management practices...
Ilja Preuss
ipreussde
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Feb 21, 2008
7:29 pm

... Joseph Pelrine, that is....
Ilja Preuss
ipreussde
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Feb 21, 2008
8:07 pm

Hello, Ilja. On Thursday, February 21, 2008, at 2:29:03 PM, you ... Scrum predates XP. I would testify that I recall hearing Kent Beck say, at one point, that...
Ron Jeffries
RonaldEJeffries
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Feb 21, 2008
8:16 pm

... No question - that's what I tried to express by the "absorbed" part. Joseph explicitly said that they stole XPs management practices from Scrum. I think he...
Ilja Preuss
ipreussde
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Feb 21, 2008
10:12 pm

All, I'll try to clear up the timeline. This is from memory, so I could be wrong. My first exposure to Scrum came from asking Jeff Sutherland (I think) to send...
Kent Beck
kentlbeck
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Feb 22, 2008
12:41 am

Hello, Ilja. On Thursday, February 21, 2008, at 5:12:34 PM, you ... Its main growth came later, I think it's fair to say. ... Ward and Kent may have done it....
Ron Jeffries
RonaldEJeffries
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Feb 22, 2008
2:44 am

... I believe those engineering practices are the main part of XP that fears aged managers. It seems like Scrum guys are hiding them until they have the ...
Seyit Caglar Abbasoglu
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Feb 21, 2008
6:03 pm

... One of the core tenets of XP is open, honest communication. What you describe flies in the face of openness and honesty. Of course, people with a vested...
Dave Rooney
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Feb 21, 2008
6:16 pm

... If the development teams are given the responsibility and authority to figure out how to meet their software delivery commitments, how they do it is their...
Steven Gordon
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Feb 21, 2008
6:24 pm

Hi Dave, One of the core tenets of XP is open, honest communication. What you ... I don't think so. I believe it's not dishonest to keep some of your words ...
Seyit Caglar Abbasoglu
scabbasoglu
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Feb 21, 2008
10:50 pm

On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 11:03 AM, Seyit Caglar Abbasoglu ... That is similar to my experience. Once Scrum has established the team(s) as solely responsible...
Steven Gordon
sfman2k
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Feb 21, 2008
6:18 pm

... Bingo! That is what I try to say (in a better language :) Of course it's possible (IMO better) to achive the same (at least similar) goal with the XP way....
Seyit Caglar Abbasoglu
scabbasoglu
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Feb 21, 2008
11:08 pm

... "Fears aged managers"? More inuendo being thrown at the enemy camp? "Hiding them until..."? It might be worth while considering that maybe the XP...
aacockburn
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Feb 21, 2008
6:21 pm

... Just to be clear (don't know if I'll need a flame shield), I distinguish between /necessary/ and /useful/. There are lots of things that are useful without...
aacockburn
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Feb 21, 2008
6:26 pm

Hi Alistair, ... My fear is that incremental development requires incremental design, and that without it, you'll get a big mess of technical debt after a few...
Jim Shore
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Feb 21, 2008
6:45 pm

... People have been doing incremental design without XP since the 1950s. I've done it myself consciously since 1992 without XP. This is exactly what I mean by...
aacockburn
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Feb 21, 2008
7:06 pm

Hello, aacockburn. On Thursday, February 21, 2008, at 2:06:16 PM, ... Were these people not improving the design as they went forward? If not, why didn't they...
Ron Jeffries
RonaldEJeffries
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Feb 21, 2008
8:14 pm

... one ... practices ... can ... believe is ... I've been struggling while driving around today to work out how to approach this question. What's at question...
aacockburn
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Feb 22, 2008
1:44 am

Hello, aacockburn. On Thursday, February 21, 2008, at 8:44:14 PM, ... It seems to me that this is a two-part thing. First, are there practices that are...
Ron Jeffries
RonaldEJeffries
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Feb 22, 2008
3:19 am

... I'll just pick up this one, since it's the one with the QED at the end of it. There's an error in the understanding of Done-Done (which, by the way, isn't...
aacockburn
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Feb 22, 2008
3:47 am

... Alistair, what gave you this impression? I don't know what you're using as the "official version" of Scrum. I get a different message from _Agile Project...
Michael James
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Feb 23, 2008
12:56 am

You are obviously correct. I still work from the description in my head of Scrum as I recall it from when Ken and Jeff described Scrum to us in 2001 at the...
aacockburn
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Feb 23, 2008
1:32 am
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