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Success rates of Agile Transitions   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #141187 of 152397 |
Re: [XP] Transition Success Rate a meaningful stat? (WAS Success rates of Agile Transitions)

Hi Ron,

> Similarly, suppose we studied Agile transitions and found them
> successful ten percent of the time, or even ninety. With nothing to
> compare with, the numbers really are quite without meaning. The
> numbers might still /sell/, mind you, and so we might /convince/
> the CIO with a good bunch of numbers. But would we have ahold of
> the truth? Not so much.
>
Although I agree that further investigation is necessary to qualify
why transitions succeed or fail, I still think that a broad indicator
like a success rate would serve some meaningful purpose, both for
sales and for those of us involved in transitions. I like to think of
it in parallel to what the Dow Jones composite index is to the stock
market. The indicator itself doesn't tell you why the market dropped
or rose 200 pts. The purpose it serves is merely informing investors
how the broader market did that day. It's up to the individual
investor to find out why. The success rate of agile transitions,
along with the number of transitions attempted, would provide an
indication of whether there is a growing demand for agile transitions
and how that demand is being met. If the number were to indicate poor
transition success, I think it would spur even more collaboration
among the community, which would hopefully lead to practitioners
sharing actual data (taken from Chris: how long a program took to pay
back it's startup costs, and reporting whether they felt the program
is returning on it's cost, over time).

It sounds to me like this is not happening. But if it is, I'd be
happy to be pointed in the right direction.

Niraj.



Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:48 pm

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Hello, Chris. On Friday, March 21, 2008, at 10:05:57 AM, you ... Perhaps you fear that. If so, please feel free to discuss your own fear and how you deal with...
Ron Jeffries
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Mar 21, 2008
2:45 pm

Hi Ron, ... Although I agree that further investigation is necessary to qualify why transitions succeed or fail, I still think that a broad indicator like a...
Niraj Khanna
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Mar 21, 2008
3:48 pm

... Is it not all right to ask the question? If, indeed, we lack guts, then I think it's a pretty important question. Sometimes, a question is just a question,...
J. B. Rainsberger
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Mar 21, 2008
11:48 pm

... It's just fine to ask for data, and to argue that it is desirable to have it. I would not care to hear any more suggestions that the reason we don't have...
Ron Jeffries
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Mar 22, 2008
3:14 am

Hi Kent, You can't predict what will happen in specific cases. At best, you can say something like, "Companies similar to yours, as judged by criteria A, B, C,...
John A. De Goes
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Mar 21, 2008
5:28 pm

... We don't even have that the ability to do that. And that is the whole point. ... Statistics are useful, but I must emphasize again and again: they ... No...
Chris Wheeler
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Mar 21, 2008
6:22 pm

Hi Chris, ... I think the point more revolves around 'guts'. Like you say, we can't even provide the statistics I mentioned. Is that because we don't have...
John A. De Goes
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Mar 21, 2008
6:42 pm

... Why not? So far I have neither read nor seen (on the web and off the web) anything to the contrary. I will happily "blame" that on the fact that there is...
David H.
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Mar 21, 2008
8:51 pm

I don't think the question of the success rate of XP is all that complicated. No, we don't have the data, but a data-oriented person (or community) could get...
Kent Beck
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Mar 21, 2008
11:02 pm

... Kent, When the customer asks what the costs, benefits, timeline and risks would be for a specific software development project before even the first...
Steven Gordon
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Mar 21, 2008
11:29 pm

... You are not the only one who sees a parallel here. If you can tell the customer how much the project will cost, when the project will be done, what...
John A. De Goes
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Mar 21, 2008
11:48 pm

I don't think the analogy holds. The original question was asked in general terms. Your question is asked in specific terms. I believe the OP's question was,...
Kent Beck
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Mar 24, 2008
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... Any company in the agile transition business may well have to be able to make such a quote in order to get business from large clients. I believe there...
Steven Gordon
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Mar 24, 2008
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"This quote would be what that particular business claims to be able to deliver using its favored transition approach, not a general claim about what agile...
Max Guernsey, III
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Mar 24, 2008
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... Then, we would have to start by establishing some concrete standards. Only then could we conduct studies of engagements that comply with those standards in...
Steven Gordon
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Mar 24, 2008
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Um. The one without "quotes?" Max Guernsey, III Managing Member, Hexagon Software <http://www.hexsw.com/> http://www.hexsw.com ...
Max Guernsey, III
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Mar 24, 2008
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... I don't think the community has to agree on anything. All it will take is one person (or entity, if you prefer) to start gathering this data, or rather,...
Chris Wheeler
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... Are you being serious or are you trying to be sarcastic here? As much as I sometimes disagree with what the SA does and how it conducts itself, the main...
David H
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... I'm sorry, I'm not sure what 'SA' stands for.... That aside, I am being serious. So much talk of how we can't (or maybe "haven't" is a better word) define...
Chris Wheeler
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... Who could do it? It seems to me that no one but Kent could even try, and I'm not sure he could make it stick. Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com Make it...
Ron Jeffries
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On Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 11:16 PM, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...> ... Why is that? Why do you believe that no one could do it other than Kent, and ...
Chris Wheeler
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Mar 25, 2008
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Hello, Chris. On Tuesday, March 25, 2008, at 11:50:36 AM, you ... Because Kent put together XP and documented it and, if it has an owner at all, is surely the...
Ron Jeffries
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On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 12:24 PM, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...> ... Ok. I get this... ... But this, I don't get. I'm not trying to be difficult...
Chris Wheeler
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Hello, Chris. On Tuesday, March 25, 2008, at 12:42:24 PM, you ... I do, actually, because I don't believe that XP or Agile can be "nailed down". I don't...
Ron Jeffries
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One thing that nags me throughout this whole thread: If Agile is about "people over processes", doesn't that mean that Agile is something different in...
Manuel Klimek
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... 'People over Processes' is not written in the agile manifesto. 'Individuals and interactions over processes and tools' is. The two are different, in my ...
Chris Wheeler
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On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 7:24 PM, Chris Wheeler ... What I understand as "people over processes" is that the process "belongs" to the team, and nobody forces...
Manuel Klimek
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Mar 25, 2008
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On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 11:24 AM, Chris Wheeler ... Nevertheless, it is possible to adopt XP in a rigid way that would subjugate individuals and interactions...
Steven Gordon
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Hello, Chris. On Tuesday, March 25, 2008, at 2:24:38 PM, you ... If it comes to a conflict, we think people are more important. That's what the manifesto...
Ron Jeffries
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... That's interesting. Would you care to elaborate? ... Frankly, I don't see how the latter is following from the former. I'm also not sure that "subjugation"...
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