Search the web
Sign In
New User? Sign Up
extremeprogramming · Extreme Programming
? Already a member? Sign in to Yahoo!

Yahoo! Groups Tips

Did you know...
Show off your group to the world. Share a photo of your group with us.

Best of Y! Groups

   Check them out and nominate your group.
Having problems with message search? Fill out this form to ensure your group is one of the first to be migrated to the new message search system.

Messages

  Messages Help
Advanced
Success rates of Agile Transitions   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #141347 of 152395 |
RE: [XP] Success rates of Agile Transitions

I'm not trying to speak for Ron but I'm going to try and answer the
question.



If, by "not favorable," he means "interpreted to show that agility doesn't
work," here are some examples of statistics being misused that way:



SUVs are more likely to kill the drivers of cars they hit than cars (instead
of cars are more likely to get you killed in a collision than SUVs).



Since the end of the last glacial period of the ice age that we are
currently in, the global average temperature has been on the rise (duh),
this coincides with the industrial revolution; since the earth revolves
around us, the global average temperature change must be our doing (instead
of taking into account the natural rise and fall of temperatures and the
fact that we are still in a freaking ice age).



Statistics that come from "historical surveys" are really not very effective
tools because the filter of interpretation plays too large a role. They are
given the same kind of credibility as real science but they are missing one
key element: verifiability. There is always an element of the interpreters
fantasy mixed in with the "results" and the only way to counter it is to try
and spin the same numbers to prove your point. People don't tend to reason
these things out for themselves so whoever has the biggest megaphone wins,
rather than the one with the cleanest, most agenda-free interpretation.



Max Guernsey, III

Managing Member, Hexagon Software

<http://www.hexsw.com/> http://www.hexsw.com

<http://www.dataconstructor.com/> http://www.dataconstructor.com



From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dale Emery
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 1:09 PM
To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [XP] Success rates of Agile Transitions



Hi Ron,

> But someone else will, and then you get to deal with the misinterpretation
> > anyway.
>
> Yes. That's the issue I'm pointing out with collection of statistics. As
> Steven Gordon points out, they'll be hard to
> interpret. It's my view that they will not be strongly favorable.

I'm not sure what you mean by favorable...

Can you give an example of a statistic that would be favorable, and one that
would be unfavorable? What is it that is favorable/unfavorable about them?

Dale

--
Dale Emery, Consultant
Inspiring Leadership for Software People
Web: http://www.dhemery.com
Weblog: http://www.dhemery.com/cwd

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:19 pm

maxguernseyiii
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email

Forward
Message #141347 of 152395 |
Expand Messages Author Sort by Date

Hi Ron, ... I'm not sure what you mean by favorable... Can you give an example of a statistic that would be favorable, and one that would be unfavorable? What...
Dale Emery
dalehemery
Offline Send Email
Mar 27, 2008
8:08 pm

I'm not trying to speak for Ron but I'm going to try and answer the question. If, by "not favorable," he means "interpreted to show that agility doesn't work,"...
Max Guernsey, III
maxguernseyiii
Offline Send Email
Mar 27, 2008
8:20 pm

Hi Max, SUVs are more likely to kill the drivers of cars they hit than cars (instead ... Do you think that any of these situations would be generally improved...
Dale Emery
dalehemery
Offline Send Email
Mar 28, 2008
12:27 am

I think the situation would be about the same without as they are with, actually. That is neither here, nor there. For this thread I am, mostly, a watcher...
Max Guernsey, III
maxguernseyiii
Offline Send Email
Mar 28, 2008
12:52 am

Hello, Dale. On Thursday, March 27, 2008, at 4:08:37 PM, you ... I feel like I'm being played with but OK. Favorable to Agile. Tending to encourage people to...
Ron Jeffries
RonaldEJeffries
Offline Send Email
Mar 27, 2008
8:42 pm

On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 4:40 PM, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...> ... Ron, I know you aren't implying that we should hide the truth, but somehow, ...
Chris Wheeler
chris_h_wheeler
Offline Send Email
Mar 27, 2008
10:47 pm

Hello, Chris. On Thursday, March 27, 2008, at 6:47:03 PM, you ... I have no idea. I was answering Dale's question about what I would mean by favorable. I am...
Ron Jeffries
RonaldEJeffries
Offline Send Email
Mar 28, 2008
12:37 am

On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 8:34 PM, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...> ... Ah, ok, I see what I was missing - you had said both things, but not close ...
Chris Wheeler
chris_h_wheeler
Offline Send Email
Mar 28, 2008
2:07 am

... I'm afraid I don't have time to stay and play a while, but this post caught my attention. I regularly ask people in the assemblies I speak to "How many of...
aacockburn
Offline Send Email
Mar 28, 2008
4:13 am

Hello, Alistair. On Friday, March 28, 2008, at 12:13:11 AM, you ... Hmm. I proposed that the stats would NOT be very good. Very interesting little survey and...
Ron Jeffries
RonaldEJeffries
Offline Send Email
Mar 28, 2008
9:07 am

... This is the point where it starts getting interesting to me. I've seen/heard of some "agile transitions" based on some very strange notions of agile, and...
George Dinwiddie
gdinwiddie
Offline Send Email
Mar 28, 2008
2:19 pm

... Actually, George, that is where it really starts to get interesting, because there are many more projects than you can ever personally be involved with, so...
aacockburn
Offline Send Email
Mar 28, 2008
2:56 pm

Hi Ron, ... That's not my intention. Honest to Gumby, I asked because I didn't understand. Here's what led me to the question: Earlier you said that the...
Dale Emery
dalehemery
Offline Send Email
Mar 27, 2008
11:51 pm

Hello, Dale. On Thursday, March 27, 2008, at 7:51:32 PM, you ... Absolutely nothing. I do not care what the stats say. I believe that others may care and...
Ron Jeffries
RonaldEJeffries
Offline Send Email
Mar 28, 2008
12:57 am

Hi Ron, ... Oh. I'm having trouble knowing, when you raise an issue, whether it's one you personally care about, or whether it's one you're raising because...
Dale Emery
dalehemery
Offline Send Email
Mar 28, 2008
1:20 am

Hello, Dale. On Thursday, March 27, 2008, at 9:20:32 PM, you ... I think I've said several times in this thread that I don't care about the issue but I may be...
Ron Jeffries
RonaldEJeffries
Offline Send Email
Mar 28, 2008
1:48 am

Can you do it in large, bold, red text at the top of every post, please? Also: Does Yahoo! let you make text blink? Max Guernsey, III Managing Member, Hexagon...
Max Guernsey, III
maxguernseyiii
Offline Send Email
Mar 28, 2008
2:52 am

Hi Ron, ... The first case that I responded to was when you said, "2. If the numbers were unfavorable, as I believe they are, wouldn't they hinder what we ...
Dale Emery
dalehemery
Offline Send Email
Mar 28, 2008
3:42 am

Hello, Dale. On Thursday, March 27, 2008, at 11:40:37 PM, you ... Yes. Of course I have some kind of personal interest, i.e. I'm interested or even I wouldn't...
Ron Jeffries
RonaldEJeffries
Offline Send Email
Mar 28, 2008
10:11 am

Hi Ron, ... My inclination when someone expresses an issue that I'd like to help with, and that I don't understand well, is to explore how the person is...
Dale Emery
dalehemery
Offline Send Email
Mar 28, 2008
11:39 am

... Understood, thanks. Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com It is a bad plan that admits of no modifications. -- Publius Syrus (ca. 42 BCE)...
Ron Jeffries
RonaldEJeffries
Offline Send Email
Mar 28, 2008
11:44 am

What I got from Ron's statements was that he's interested in having statistics, but is worried about what they might say and how others may interpret them. He...
Niraj Khanna
nkhanna_01
Offline Send Email
Mar 29, 2008
4:49 pm

... "If the decision were solely up to you, would your team continue using Scrum?" Over 80% responded "yes" three years running (2005, 2006, and 2007) at...
Michael James
michaeljames...
Offline Send Email
Mar 28, 2008
1:27 am

... Hi, Dale, I'm not Steven, but I see another sense in which the numbers would be invalid. Things that are different will be treated as if they were the ...
George Dinwiddie
gdinwiddie
Offline Send Email
Mar 27, 2008
3:52 am

Hi George, I see another sense in which the numbers would be invalid. Things that are ... Yes, summarizing those variables into counts and ratios certainly...
Dale Emery
dalehemery
Offline Send Email
Mar 27, 2008
4:36 am

... I think it could possibly reduce the value to less than zero (i.e. misleading). -- ... * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com...
George Dinwiddie
gdinwiddie
Offline Send Email
Mar 27, 2008
6:17 am

Hi George, ... I think the numbers would be misleading only if you don't know how they were derived. Suppose instead that you know exactly how respondents...
Dale Emery
dalehemery
Offline Send Email
Mar 27, 2008
7:29 pm

Hello, Dale. On Thursday, March 27, 2008, at 3:29:48 PM, you ... I've give it probability 1.0. Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com If you want to garden, you...
Ron Jeffries
RonaldEJeffries
Offline Send Email
Mar 27, 2008
7:49 pm

Hi Ron, ... Given that George said that such a number "could possibly" mislead, I suspect that you and he mean different things by "misleading number." My...
Dale Emery
dalehemery
Offline Send Email
Mar 27, 2008
8:26 pm

Hello, Dale. On Thursday, March 27, 2008, at 4:25:40 PM, you ... More like "lots of people all over", but yes. ... In my opinion, quite likely not. The...
Ron Jeffries
RonaldEJeffries
Offline Send Email
Mar 27, 2008
8:45 pm
 First  |  |  Last 
Advanced

Copyright © 2009 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy - Terms of Service - Guidelines - Help