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TDD - the data is in?   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #144507 of 152296 |
Re: TDD - the data is in?

--- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, John Stoneham <lyric@...>
wrote:
>
> Uncle Bob's keynote at Agile2008 contained a claim that "the data
is in"
> on TDD - that it works, does not increase cost, and drops the defect
> rate by up to an order of magnitude. (I am paraphrasing here.
Pardon me
> if I have misquoted.)

Good news, bad news on this one. The data is also in that we're not
doing anywhere near as much TDD as one would come to believe based on
all the chatter we see on the mailing lists. Later today I'll post
the initial version of my summary of the Practices and Principles
survey I ran a few weeks ago. I'll send out an email when I do so.

Apparently, agilists are more likely to do some up front modeling
than they are to do TDD. They're also more likely to write status
reports than to do TDD, so if that's not a sharp stick in the eye I
don't know what is.

There's also a very clear trend for adopting easy practices such as
daily scrum meetings over difficult practices such as TDD. Once
again human nature raises it's ugly head. ;-)

- Scott
Practice Leader Agile Development, IBM Rational
http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/ambler




Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:11 pm

scottwambler
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Message #144507 of 152296 |
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John, ... Glad it was helpful. Be sure and add to the bibliography when you learn of more studies and papers. It's one of those "collective ownership" things. ...
davenicolette
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Aug 13, 2008
12:37 pm

... is in" ... Pardon me ... Good news, bad news on this one. The data is also in that we're not doing anywhere near as much TDD as one would come to believe...
Scott Ambler
scottwambler
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Aug 12, 2008
1:11 pm

... Could you try another survey - of programmers who have tried TDD for a non-trivial project, such as >3 months, how many relapse to code-and-fix? -- Phlip...
Phlip
phlipcpp
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Aug 12, 2008
6:54 pm

... If you do, could you add another option that says "I do both"? For example, when I know what I want the code to do, I find TDD is the best way to do it. ...
Ken Boucher
bonsai1966
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Aug 12, 2008
7:17 pm

... Ken, FWIW, I've found that the best strategy here (at least, for me) is to do the whole thing in the test, using characterization assertions to verify code...
George Dinwiddie
gdinwiddie
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Aug 13, 2008
3:14 am

... That's unfortunate. It's too bad that because of the challenges with quantifying the 'goodness' of a practice, that people are skeptical of it's worth. My...
Jonathan Rasmusson
rasmus4200
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Aug 13, 2008
1:18 pm

I must admit I don't follow the TDD research very closely; I have been looking at other aspects of agile processes. But Laurie Williams has done lots. See: ...
Robert Biddle
robtbiddle
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Aug 12, 2008
4:00 pm

This has kind of wandered away from the original report of what Uncle Bob said. What I remember the OP stating was his report on --one-- metric: field reported...
John Roth
jhrothjr
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Aug 12, 2008
4:32 pm

There have been several papers and studies over the years regarding the effectiveness of TDD. Seems to me that with a bit of searching we could find those...
Scott Ambler
scottwambler
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Aug 12, 2008
7:23 pm

If I wanted to get formal, I think I'd call that a "spike." It's a standard XP technique, probably not as well known as it should be. John Roth ... From: "Ken...
John Roth
jhrothjr
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Aug 12, 2008
7:38 pm

... The really sad part is, I've forgotten it was called that. Thanks! It's funny, now that I'm smarter than I was five minutes ago, I feel dumb. :D...
Ken Boucher
bonsai1966
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Aug 12, 2008
9:58 pm

... My favorite part of the speech was when Bob said "people are doing TDD *AND* they are writing tests first." :-) -- best regards, jk Industrial Logic, Inc....
Joshua Kerievsky
jlk112067
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Aug 12, 2008
8:35 pm

Nice. Department of Redundancy Department. ... is in" ... Pardon me ... TDD *AND*...
davenicolette
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Aug 12, 2008
10:59 pm

... The redundancy wasn't what made me laugh. What I liked is Bob's observation that many folks who say they are doing TDD aren't writing tests first! So to...
Joshua Kerievsky
jlk112067
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Aug 12, 2008
11:05 pm

... I understood what you were saying, yet I am glad you clarified because you (and Bob's) underline the gap between logic, behavior, and many other aspects of...
Victor
vmgoldberg2
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Aug 12, 2008
11:42 pm

Hence the redundancy, nicht wahr? You're right, anyway. Dave ... observation ... first! So ... getting closer...
davenicolette
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Aug 13, 2008
12:19 pm

... John, have you considered emailing Uncle Bob? That seems a more likely approach than speculating on this list. - George -- ... * George Dinwiddie *...
George Dinwiddie
gdinwiddie
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Aug 13, 2008
3:23 am

D'Arcy J.M. Cain ... Absent a survey of what the most pressing needs were, I'd pick Frequent Deliveries and Retrospectives. Frequent Deliveries will force lots...
John Roth
jhrothjr
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Aug 13, 2008
4:25 pm

John, ... time, ... I used to work in a shop steeped in waterfallish traditions. When we started the move toward Agile the concept of "frequent deliveries"was...
Matt
maswaffer
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Aug 13, 2008
4:50 pm

... the ... of ... we ... deliveries"was ... is a ... it ... overcoming the ... I'll agree with this - I've been pushing quarterly deliveries since at least...
aacockburn
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Aug 13, 2008
5:09 pm

D'Arcy sent me his original question by regular email and I didn't realize he had posted it to the list as well. This was my response: I agree with you that...
davenicolette
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Aug 13, 2008
8:00 pm

Correction: I meant to write "what everyone thinks," not "what everything thinks." I don't consider you "things." ;-) Dave...
davenicolette
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Aug 13, 2008
8:02 pm

... I don't know how to do this and co-ordinate multiple projects. I'm trying to think of a project or product I've been on that didn't require a level of...
Ken Boucher
bonsai1966
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Aug 13, 2008
8:28 pm

Ken, I didn't mean that there was no coordination between teams or projects. I meant that individuals are assigned to exactly one project team at a time. You...
davenicolette
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Aug 13, 2008
8:33 pm

I've been dealing with trying to introduce Agile into projects within a large organization for many years now. What Ive found is that there are some...
Brad Appleton
bradapp1
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Aug 14, 2008
1:28 pm

Brad, I like your list because it recognizes the importance of taking a combined bottom-up and top-down approach. Many people have used selected practices on...
davenicolette
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Aug 14, 2008
3:37 pm

Hi Dave! ... Yeah - Ive definitely learned that the hard way :-) ... Well - I would say a "baseline for agility" might require more than just 2-4 agile...
Brad Appleton
bradapp1
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Aug 17, 2008
7:05 am

Hi Brad, ... <Brad.Appleton@...> wrote: [snip] ... just ... I agree. The original question about which two practices to introduce first may have come from a...
davenicolette
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Aug 17, 2008
12:23 pm

... I find one has to do both bottom-up and top-down at the same time (or sometimes in ping-pong sort of fashion). Ive had very little success getting...
Brad Appleton
bradapp1
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Aug 18, 2008
1:41 pm

... I've seen the same patterns. ... data. I've seen the same pattern. ... assuming ... The context of that remark was a brief description of how we got ...
davenicolette
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Aug 18, 2008
7:39 pm
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