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Reply Message #156008 of 156997 |
Re: [XP] New Agile Vehicles

Hi Josh,
> I'm glad you said how *people* approach code, because it's a much
> larger
> issue than just what programmers do.
>

I'm not sure who you have in mind, but... if the people *touching* the
code don't have a handle on technical debt, nobody does. "What
programmers do" is too big a deal to warrant that little word "just".

Now, assuming programmers who *do* have their wits about them, you
still need to communicate to other constituencies about what the
programmers are seeing directly, and help them act effectively on that
information. That includes people in testing (or QA if it's called
that), product owners who are dealing with the business side of those
risks, and so on.

But you can't short-circuit the programmers. That doesn't keep people
from trying - there's this old fantasy of "tools that measure
technical debt just by parsing the source code". This is the too
common fallacy of reification, of assuming that because you have a
concept of "technical debt" it's something objective, "out there",
that you can measure the way you'd measure oxidation of metals. That
doesn't work, because what we're dealing with is relational - it's
about how well a specific bunch of programmers with specific tools and
habits are able to deal with a specific code base.

A really, really bright idea from one of my friends, Regis Medina, was
to apply the techniques of usability testing to source code, and more
broadly to consider source code "the programmer's UI onto the
project". Unfortunately he's been too busy recently to develop it much
further but I think it has legs. (As has the related transpositon of
"process as the manager's UI onto the project".)

Another thing I think is cool is Coding Dojos, not so much for what
they are but for the directions they point in. For instance, some
research into pair programming suggests that it's not so much the
pairing that is effective, but rather the act of "programming out
loud". Dojos tap into that as a way of teaching programmer skills.

> We may only get one huge step forward, like TDD, every decade.

That shoudn't keep us from trying. How long does it take to have an
innovative idea? If you have enough of them, sooner or later you'll
hit on a game-changer. I've been fooling around with a technique known
as the "zwicky box", but there are others that might work,
brainstorming and so on. Back in the early oughts, as I remember it,
there was a lot of such kicking ideas around going on, and things seem
to be a little more tame of late, possibly because of entrenchments of
the Agile "vehicles" as you call them, and the money involved, and so
on. I'd like to see that creativity come back.

Cheers,
Laurent Bossavit
laurent@...





Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:30 pm

lbos75
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Message #156008 of 156997 |
Expand Messages Author Sort by Date

... I'm glad you said how *people* approach code, because it's a much larger issue than just what programmers do. ... There are plenty of folks, especially on...
Joshua Kerievsky
jlk112067 Offline Send Email
Nov 10, 2010
5:46 pm

Hi Josh, ... I'm not sure who you have in mind, but... if the people *touching* the code don't have a handle on technical debt, nobody does. "What programmers...
Laurent Bossavit
lbos75 Offline Send Email
Nov 10, 2010
10:30 pm

... I don't have a concern with who has a "handle" on the technical debt but rather why it got produced in the first place. Is the environment one in which...
Joshua Kerievsky
jlk112067 Offline Send Email
Nov 11, 2010
5:45 am

Hello, Joshua. On Wednesday, November 10, 2010, at 11:44:57 PM, ... Exactly. I would go on to say that it was not created because "XP is too hard in our...
Ron Jeffries
RonaldEJeffries Offline Send Email
Nov 11, 2010
10:56 am

If Scrum has a flaw it is that it leads with the wrong message. Scrum tells us that our product development efforts would be more effective if we worked ...
Adam Sroka
adamjaph Offline Send Email
Nov 10, 2010
6:12 pm

There are lots of impediments to effectively developing software iteratively and incrementally. Some of those impediments involve technical...
Steven Gordon
sfman2k Offline Send Email
Nov 10, 2010
6:28 pm

... Certainly. ... Yes. ... Depending on how you define and measure progress that may be true. The problem, is that many teams actually reject good technical...
Adam Sroka
adamjaph Offline Send Email
Nov 10, 2010
8:36 pm

... It may be that both XP and Scrum are putting the cart before the horse. One is entirely managerial. The other has become synonymous with "technical...
Joshua Kerievsky
jlk112067 Offline Send Email
Nov 10, 2010
7:45 pm

Startups are a small part of the market. They are definitely easier to do right than organizations that already have significant momentum to overcome. On Wed,...
Steven Gordon
sfman2k Offline Send Email
Nov 10, 2010
8:14 pm

On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 11:45 AM, Joshua Kerievsky ... That's a different conversation, IMO. On one hand Scrum has most of what XP has except for the things...
Adam Sroka
adamjaph Offline Send Email
Nov 10, 2010
8:27 pm

Hello, Adam. On Wednesday, November 10, 2010, at 2:26:59 PM, you ... Yes. Despite stories of people who wrote crappy code for a while and got away with it, I...
Ron Jeffries
RonaldEJeffries Offline Send Email
Nov 10, 2010
8:58 pm

I have not found this in my experience i.e. that Scrum teams are reluctant to pick up core engineering practices. I know it's not defined anywhere but it's...
JackM
jmilunsky Offline Send Email
Nov 10, 2010
9:02 pm

... No offense, but viewing slides on definition of done is not remotely close to what I'm talking about when I say "technical excellence." I'm talking about...
Adam Sroka
adamjaph Offline Send Email
Nov 10, 2010
9:15 pm

My responses below jm> ... jm>> none taken. Agreed. However all i was suggesting here is the fact that even the Scrum G-d's agree that there is more than just...
JackM
jmilunsky Offline Send Email
Nov 10, 2010
10:03 pm

... Sure. It's not the sort of thing you can learn in a CSM class. I don't hear many in the community (with some important and notable exceptions) saying that...
Adam Sroka
adamjaph Offline Send Email
Nov 10, 2010
11:36 pm

Hello, Adam. On Wednesday, November 10, 2010, at 5:36:46 PM, you ... I would wager that few here have ever taken a CSM class. From those, I'd truly like to...
Ron Jeffries
RonaldEJeffries Offline Send Email
Nov 11, 2010
10:46 am

... Inertia? Fear? I have a client right now who is feeling immense, acute pain from a code base that's is as bad as I've ever seen. They know what the...
Dave Rooney
daverooneyca Offline Send Email
Nov 11, 2010
11:37 am

Hi Dave, ... That's interesting, I'm like to hear more... Knowing what the problem is, what have they been *doing* about it? ... It seems quite sane to me to...
Laurent Bossavit
lbos75 Offline Send Email
Nov 11, 2010
12:02 pm

... Talking. Wringing their hands. For years. ... I'll address the first sentence - what may "seem" sane may in fact be quite the opposite. We're about the...
Dave Rooney
daverooneyca Offline Send Email
Nov 11, 2010
2:31 pm

... When it costs more to add functionality than the business value it produces, it is time to STOP. Why would any business spend more to do something than ...
Steven Gordon
sfman2k Offline Send Email
Nov 11, 2010
4:47 pm

... Yes. ... Yes. ... HELL yes! ... Yup, I've mentioned that before: http://practicalagility.blogspot.com/2009/06/revert-to-training.html ... This is great! I...
Dave Rooney
daverooneyca Offline Send Email
Nov 11, 2010
5:21 pm

In "The Psychology of Computer Programming" Jerry Weinberg wrote ". . . the lack of software skill was never the problem. Lack of managerial skill was always...
Keith Ray
attkeithray Offline Send Email
Nov 11, 2010
6:42 pm

... Well said Steven. That relationship and healthy collaboration between those three groups is essential. I fear that the development side of that triad often...
Joshua Kerievsky
jlk112067 Offline Send Email
Nov 11, 2010
7:09 pm

... IMHO, this is like saying, you have to work on your diet before you can begin exercising. Serialized thinking! Adults are capable of walking and chewing...
Joshua Kerievsky
jlk112067 Offline Send Email
Nov 14, 2010
11:39 pm

Hello, Joshua. On Sunday, November 14, 2010, at 6:39:11 PM, you ... Yes, but can they sing and eat at the same time? ... Well, they would be if you could...
Ron Jeffries
RonaldEJeffries Offline Send Email
Nov 14, 2010
11:52 pm

... Hi Ron - I'm not following. What's your point? ... As Ashley Johnson says, organizations, departments and teams don't actually transition to Agile....
Joshua Kerievsky
jlk112067 Offline Send Email
Nov 15, 2010
1:43 am

Hello, Joshua. On Sunday, November 14, 2010, at 8:43:12 PM, you ... That's not quite the same as educating a team in management at one end and technical at...
Ron Jeffries
RonaldEJeffries Offline Send Email
Nov 15, 2010
1:59 am

... Hi Ron -- in the analogy, the organization/department/team is the kid in school who is learning a variety of important subjects. I believe it's not as easy...
Joshua Kerievsky
jlk112067 Offline Send Email
Nov 15, 2010
7:33 am

Hello, Joshua. On Monday, November 15, 2010, at 2:33:26 AM, you ... Might be. I suppose that is why we keep writing and marketing. However, I think there is a...
Ron Jeffries
RonaldEJeffries Offline Send Email
Nov 15, 2010
11:16 am

Hi All, Late to the discussion. It's interesting that we are focusing on the vehicle and mostly ignoring the person in the driving seat. I've been reading...
PAUL
beckfordp... Offline Send Email
Nov 27, 2010
8:47 am
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