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IEEE SWEBOK Is Looking for Reviewers--They Don't Even Mention XP, A   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #74297 of 152277 |
Re: licensing software engineers (was Re: [XP] IEEE SWEBOK Is Looking for Reviewers--They Don't Even Mention XP, Agile, etc.)

Let's check context --- IF we establish that software engineering is a
licensable profession, THEN any company that makes life critical
software would be foolish to not have a licensed software engineer
signing off.

That's a big IF.

I happen to be a fan of professional licensing, and my sympathies are
on the plaintiff's side of malpractice liability. WHEN there is
malpractice, I like to see the malpractitioner get sued, disciplined,
pay for it, and in the event of repeat malperformances, get summarily
booted out of the profession. I'm not being sarcastic about this --
personal accountability is important to me. I've even served as a
full-time volunteer prosecutor in the Santa Clara County District
Attorney's Office, putting my feelings about personal accountability
into practice.

I have two concerns about licensing software engineers:

(a) Do we have a solid enough consensus in the field today to define
the Standard of Care that a jury should evaluate a software engineer's
performance against?

(b) Is the set of materials (SWEBOK) that will be promoted as the
statement of that Standard of Care a reasonable description of what I
understand as good software engineering practice?

Regarding (a), this is a vital issue because this is the basis both of
licensing and of malpractice litigation. There has never been a
successful suit for pure software engineering malpractice. (There have
been successful software-related malpractice suits against accountants
and other licensed professionals, but not yet against software
engineers per se.) The reason that there has never been a successful
suit is that the law does not yet recognize us as a profession. Only
professionals can be sued for malpractice (professional negligence).

If we convince politicians to declare software engineering a profession
but don't have a sufficient consensus, then we create a litigation
lottery. Dissatisfied clients will be able to sue for malpractice, but
the jury will get essentially random guidance from the expert witnesses
who testify at trial about appropriate engineering practice.

In my view, this would be a disaster for the developing profession.
Ultimately, standards of care WOULD be established. But they would be
established in litigation. By judges, juries, lawyers and insurance
companies.

It is impossible to predict what standards would come out of a process
like this.

I look forward to a time when we do license software engineers. I think
we'll appropriately hit that time about 20 years from now. Let's not
make the mistake of rushing into it today.

Regarding (b), SWEBOK reflects a collection of practices that have been
successfully promoted to DoD and several other government agencies.
They have credibility, they have a big fan club, there is a lot of
money being made doing business with DoD (etc.) under these
practices/standards, they are not going away any time soon. If our
field adopts a Standard of Care in the next few years, it will look a
lot like SWEBOK.

I think SWEBOK promotes a set of practices that are sometimes
appropriate, but in many contexts thay are as outrageously expensive as
they are remarkably ineffective. The idea of adopting these as a
standard of care for our profession, is, at least to me, abhorrent.

-- cem kaner



On Sunday, June 1, 2003, at 01:39 PM, Dan Rawsthorne wrote:

> Cem Kaner said:
>> I agree that a company that made
>> life-critical software would be foolish to not have a licensed
> engineer
>> as overseer. But for commercial software -- unless there is a
>> regulation or law that I am unaware of -- no such legal requirement
>> exists.
>
> Cem is correct. Furthermore, life-critical software that is currently
> being built *is* signed off on by a professional engineer. This
> engineer
> is often an EE who claims proficiency in software.
>
> Since there need to be professional engineers that sign off on
> software,
> I would prefer that they be software professionals, wouldn't you? They
> would have a better chance of recognizing why agility works, or what
> lessons patterns teach us, and so on.
Cem Kaner, Professor, Department of Computer Sciences,
Florida Institute of Technology, 150 West University Blvd.
Melbourne, FL 32901.
Senior author of
Lessons Learned in Software Testing
Testing Computer Software, and
Bad Software: What to Do When Software Fails.




Sun Jun 1, 2003 9:45 pm

cemkaner
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Message #74297 of 152277 |
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... engineer ... Cem is correct. Furthermore, life-critical software that is currently being built *is* signed off on by a professional engineer. This engineer...
Dan Rawsthorne
drawstho
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Jun 1, 2003
5:39 pm

Let's check context --- IF we establish that software engineering is a licensable profession, THEN any company that makes life critical software would be...
Cem Kaner
cemkaner
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Jun 1, 2003
9:45 pm

... Do you think it should be possible for a journalist to be "booted out of the profession"? I'm not talking about their reputation being ruined and being...
Chris Hanson
cmh23
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Jun 2, 2003
12:19 am

... From: "Cem Kaner" <kaner.at.kaner.com@...> To: "extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com" ...
yahoogroups@...
jhrothjr
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Jun 1, 2003
10:30 pm

... Could not the same argument be raised that all that Laywers do in a courtroom is Speech, and therefore Laywer nothing should stop anybody from being a...
Daniel Sheppard
Danshep
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Jun 2, 2003
5:47 am

... The amount of controversy to be effective would have to be enough (and of the kind) that gets the Wall Street Journal, the NY Times, and other ...
Keith Ray
attkeithray
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May 31, 2003
2:16 am

... I would have no objection to state licensing of Software Engineers, as long as it remained clear that you can develop software as a craftsman ...
Kevin Smith
kevinbsmith
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May 31, 2003
5:23 pm

... A lot of this is offset by open source and the services models growing around open source, speaheaded by the likes of IBM and Redhat, Zope and JBoss. Just...
Bill de hÓra
bdehora
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May 31, 2003
7:01 pm

Hi Ron, ... I overstated. So let me reel it in: If there is any value in reviewing SWEBOK, much of the value (perhaps only for the reviewer) will come from...
Dale Emery
dalehemery
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May 30, 2003
11:35 pm

... The IEEE and ACM are developing a curriculum for software engineering undergraduate degree programs. Much of the thinking underlying the recommended...
Cem Kaner
cemkaner
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May 31, 2003
3:35 am

... Very interesting and compelling comments, Cem. Thank you! It seems that if some of our more rational members got involved it would be good. What about the...
Ron Jeffries
RonaldEJeffries
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May 31, 2003
10:51 am

... Reminds me of CMM(I). In some shops, they use it as an excuse for heavy ceremony and big-paperwork-up-front. But CMM is agility-neutral. -- Phlip ...
Phlip
phlipcpp
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May 30, 2003
9:15 pm

... As I understand it, CMMi is agility neutral, but the auditors are not....
Brian Christopher Rob...
bcrtrw
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May 31, 2003
7:46 pm

Hi Brian, ... CMM Lead Assessors vary on any number of dimensions. I'll bet you could find some who appreciate agility. For example, I'll bet my friends...
Dale Emery
dalehemery
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May 31, 2003
10:47 pm

... From: "Ron Jeffries" <ronjeffries.at.acm.org@...> To: "extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com" ...
yahoogroups@...
jhrothjr
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May 31, 2003
1:48 am

The assumptions underlying the testing section of the SWEBOK are decidedly non-agile or anti-agile. This is largely by design. The position of the drafters is...
Cem Kaner
cemkaner
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May 31, 2003
2:46 am

... Now we have over a dozen books on agile and extreme programming, including a few post-conference publications and academic studies. That will help buttress...
Keith Ray
attkeithray
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May 31, 2003
2:55 pm

SWEBOOK evil. ... looking for ... Scrum, etc., ... message ... read the ... www.swebok.org ... be ... Engineering Body ... cycles ... (version 0.95) ... Guide...
fishlike_fly
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May 30, 2003
8:06 pm
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