extremeprogramming : Message: Re: [XP] Ranking - was XP Certification. What a waste...

On Saturday, April 24, 2004, at 5:03:09 PM, Laurent Bossavit wrote:

> Ron:

>> In what's below you're conflating two or more topics. One is: if
>> someone is "better", should they get paid more. I think that the answer
>> is yes.

> How do you mean that "should" ? Is that "should" as in, it's in the
> best interest of the employer ? Or is that "should" as in, ethically
> justified ?

> As far as at least these two questions are concerned, I think that
> the answer is deeply non-obvious. And it's very unlikely to be an
> unqualified "yes".

Is it ethically right to pay more for more value? I think so.
Is it in the best interest to pay more to keep the things you value most? I
think so.

What do you think?

Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
Robin: "Gosh, Batman, is there anything you don't know?"
Batman: "Oh yes, Robin. Several things, in fact."

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... How do you mean that "should" ? Is that "should" as in, it's in the best interest of the employer ? Or is that "should" as in, ethically justified ? As far...

Laurent Bossavit
morendilfoo

Apr 24, 2004
8:59 pm

... Is it ethically right to pay more for more value? I think so. Is it in the best interest to pay more to keep the things you value most? I think so. What do...

Ron Jeffries
RonaldEJeffries

Apr 24, 2004
10:16 pm

Ron: The context of the following is your assertion that "if someone is 'better', they should be paid more". We'll get more mileage out of that sentence if we...

Laurent Bossavit
morendilfoo

Apr 25, 2004
12:44 pm

... Yes, with some flavoring of harder to replace, more readily deployed elsewhere, and so on ... ... I would think that the owner of the "extra value" would...

Ron Jeffries
RonaldEJeffries

Apr 25, 2004
5:58 pm

... Well, the owner of the extra value does have the right to distribute it however he/she/it sees fit; by definition of "ownership". In particular, the owner...

Laurent Bossavit
morendilfoo

Apr 25, 2004
7:14 pm

... The alternatives seem to be "worth more implies paid less", which seems to me to be less fair; "worth is not relevant"; and perhaps other options like ...

Ron Jeffries
RonaldEJeffries

Apr 25, 2004
8:41 pm

... You might want to encourage the lesser mortals, whereas the top performers need no encouragement. Well, I'm just playing Devil's advocate here - I'd also...

Laurent Bossavit
morendilfoo

Apr 25, 2004
10:52 pm

This game is a great idea!! It makes the point. Laurent Bossavit wrote: [clip] ... [clip] . . ....

Larry Brunelle
larrybrunelle

Apr 25, 2004
11:23 pm

... Hi Laurent, Why is it significant in this game that Alexander has no dependents and comes from a weathy family? Are you indirectly suggesting a policy of ...

Steve Bate
noetic8

Apr 26, 2004
12:52 am

... Agreed. I would also argue that, when it comes to contributors on a software project, value is far too complex to ever have an objective measure. I'm in...

Jim Shore
jimlittle82

Apr 26, 2004
6:41 am

... Your "compensation game" would be one possible move in my Compensation Game. (I need to come up with a name for the latter...) Chees, -[Laurent]- On a...

Laurent Bossavit
morendilfoo

Apr 26, 2004
4:53 pm

... The direct answer is, "because I constructed the game so as to make it (possibly) significant". You may well choose a first-round move which denies that it...

Laurent Bossavit
morendilfoo

Apr 26, 2004
6:57 pm

... Scott Adams *has* to be reading this list: http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/dilbert-20040426.html Cheers, -[Laurent]- The only meaning of life...

Laurent Bossavit
morendilfoo

Apr 26, 2004
9:28 pm

It should show up in the rankings given by the people they have paired with. If not, that person's abilities are really being wasted on that team anyway. ...

Steven Gordon
sfman2k

Apr 21, 2004
4:19 am

... First thanks to Larry for responding in a way that I can only admire. In addition, I have witnessed the phenomenon where, after a successful XP transition,...

David Putman
davidputmanuk

Apr 21, 2004
8:57 pm

... Are you saying that if two people were equal in all regards except coding speed, you couldn't tell the difference? Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com Think...

Ron Jeffries
RonaldEJeffries

Apr 21, 2004
9:06 pm

For exactly which skill(s) or task(s) do you want to be able to tell who is better? ... First thanks to Larry for responding in a way that I can only admire. ...

Steven Gordon
sfman2k

Apr 21, 2004
9:23 pm

... is better? I don't want to be able to tell who is better. I'm actually arguing that it is near enough to impossible to do and so is a pointless (and...

David Putman
davidputmanuk

Apr 21, 2004
10:00 pm

... So it is your position that all programmers on a project, and in a company, should be paid the same amount? Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com The practices...

Ron Jeffries
RonaldEJeffries

Apr 21, 2004
10:19 pm

... No, I'm not saying that. What I am saying is that I wouldn't be able to tell the reason for the difference, which is much more important. If I reward a...

David Putman
davidputmanuk

Apr 21, 2004
10:16 pm

... Can you correctly reward staff members only for the good performances they put in when everything is entirely within their control? From what I understand,...

J. B. Rainsberger
nails762

Apr 21, 2004
10:52 pm

... Yes, it seems entirely reasonable. That's why top athletes, top salesmen, top doctors, top anythings make more money than the rest of us drones. Good ...

Ron Jeffries
RonaldEJeffries

Apr 22, 2004
1:52 am

I believe a 360 degree assessment can tell you is making the biggest contribution to the success/failure of the current project in a fair manner. The...

Steven Gordon
sfman2k

Apr 22, 2004
12:33 am

I've been thinking about the extreme solution to raises. What would be an open, mutually beneficial, and clear policy for raises? Here's my thought: One way to...

kentlbeck

Apr 22, 2004
6:39 pm

k> Here's the policy: Any time you want a raise you go and interview k> with other companies. You bring your offer letter in and your k> employer can either...

Chet Hendrickson
suechet

Apr 22, 2004
7:39 pm

... Communication: Bad fit. What if you don't *want* a new job, just some more money? You can't get what you want without going to other companies and having...

Edmund Schweppe
schweppe@...

Apr 22, 2004
8:16 pm

... Feedback: fairly good fit. Employees get the clear message that the employer is not interested in evaluating them on any other basis, and will only give...

Peter Hansen
plhansen2000

Apr 22, 2004
8:39 pm

Hi Kent, ... If I were an employee, the message I would take from this policy is: I see you as a cost, and my goal is to minimize the cost. I'm confident that...

Dale Emery
dalehemery

Apr 22, 2004
9:32 pm

... Hi Kent Some thoughts I had .... As I read it, it is the problem of raises that you wish to solve and not staff retention. I think that leaving a job is...

Shane Mingins
shanemingins

Apr 22, 2004
10:42 pm

Shane Mingins wrote: [clip] ... [clip] Thanks for a correct observation! But why need raises be a "problem"? In a recent story, IBM's head software honcho...

Larry Brunelle
larrybrunelle

Apr 23, 2004
3:34 am

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